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Church History Matters
166 - What You Never Knew About Liberty Jail with Alex Baugh - E43C October 20-26
01:12:36
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- [00:00]
Alex Baugh
Is that not powerful? We are going to win this. And this dispensation will come off triumph. This is a turning point in Joseph's life. He was naturally courageous, but when he comes out of Liberty Jail, he's absolutely fearless. It prepared him for the martyrdom. I really believe that.
- [00:20]
Scott
Hello, Scott.
- [00:21]
Casey
Hello, Casey.
- [00:22]
Scott
We're here once again with another special episode of Voices of the Restoration. And this one focuses on Liberty Jail or one of the most powerful episodes in the life of Joseph Smith. So I'm pretty excited to talk about this 100%.
- [00:35]
Alex Baugh
Yeah.
- [00:35]
Casey
In our previous episode we talked about the letter, right? The letter that Joseph wrote or letters. We went through the Revelations in a lot of detail. But what we didn't get to do was really lay out a lot of the context, maybe some particulars about the Mormon Missouri war, things about Liberty Jail itself. And what we thought we'd do today is actually bring in one of the greatest, I think, experts in the church on this case. I don't know anyone else who knows more about 1838, 39 Latter Day Saints in Missouri than Alex Baugh, our guest today.
- [01:04]
Scott
Do you he even knows enough to St. Missouri instead of Missouri, which, which you've corrected me several times on this, Alex.
- [01:13]
Alex Baugh
That is the proper pronunciation according to the natives.
- [01:17]
Scott
You've done everything from write about Liberty Jail to use ground penetrating radar at haunts mill. Like I just. There's not a site in Missouri that I talk about when I'm talking with people that. Where I. Where your name doesn't come up once or twice. So we're really glad you're with us.
- [01:32]
Alex Baugh
Hey, my pleas, we just. You're so influential and grateful for all the people you're trying to help understand our history and our doctrine and our. The Revelations. You're doing a great job. Just keep it up. Glad to be a part of it. Yeah.
- [01:45]
Casey
This is our idea of a good time.
- [01:46]
Scott
This is an extension of our classrooms. And is it okay if I mentioned too that I was one of your students as an undergrad?
- [01:53]
Alex Baugh
Well, it does age me.
- [01:56]
Scott
It ages you because I remember you also saying Mormonism is my life and being super enthusiastic, talking about even sitting in In Stake Conference and feeling the sense of participating in the history of the church, which your enthusiasm just really, really inspired me. So thank you.
- [02:14]
Alex Baugh
Look at how far you've come and from those student years, I wish I would have known Scott in his younger days.
- [02:20]
Casey
I would have been the rabble rouser, the troublemaker in your class. I would have been the one always pestering you with questions.
- [02:28]
Alex Baugh
We like those guys, too. I do remember one student saying, brother Bob, we really like your lessons and presentations, but we really like it when you get off the sub.
- [02:37]
Scott
That might have been me.
- [02:38]
Alex Baugh
It might have been Casey.
- [02:39]
Casey
Well, we're going to try to do the opposite today. We want to keep you on task on the subject. We want to dig deep into and try to pull as much out of you as we can today, Alex. And maybe before we do that, it might be good, Casey, to read a little bio. Do we have a bio for Alex today?
- [02:56]
Scott
Yeah, I've got Alex's bio here. So I'll read it and then we'll dive in. So Alexander EL Baugh is a professor and former chair of the Department of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University where he has been a full time faculty member since 1995. He received his bachelor's from Utah State University and his master's and PhD from Brigham Young University. He specializes in researching and writing about the Missouri period of early church history. That's 1831-39. He is the author, editor and co editor of 12 books, including three volumes of the document series of the Joseph Smith papers. That's volumes four, five, and six. And in addition, he's published more than 80 historical journal articles, essays, and book chapters. He is a member of the Mormon History association and the John Whitmer Historical association, having served as president of the latter organization from 2006 to 2007. He is also the past editor of Mormon Historical Studies and the past co director of research for the BYU Religious Studies Center. He's married to the former Susan Johnson, and they are the parents of five children. And he and his wife reside in Highland, Utah. Alex, anything you want to add to that lengthy list of accomplishments?
- [04:07]
Alex Baugh
That should do it. I'm okay. Thank you for sharing.
- [04:10]
Casey
So, Alex, I just got to ask. Maybe our first question today is like, what? What drew you toward studying the history of the Church, specifically in Missouri, especially about the 183839 conflict that happened there. Like, tell us how you got into that.
- [04:25]
Alex Baugh
I graduated in Utah State and almost immediately got into a Master's of history program here at byu. That was in Western American history. I did my thesis on John C. Fremont's expeditions into Utah and how that affected the decision of Brigham Young and others to come to Utah. But when I got into my doctoral program, they let me come down here to take my classes. So I got to teach. I taught at Vehmont Seminary for about six, seven years and began teaching here. And oh, My goodness, I ran into all the right people. Lamar Barrett, what a jam. He was doing a series called Sacred Places of the various locations of Church History and detailing the church history sites in all these different areas. New England, Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, Nebraska, Iowa. Anyway, the same time I was taking a directed readings course and I read a, a book on the 1838 Missouri Mormon War. Mormon, Missouri War, you can say it either way. And I was a little going. I don't think this is quite the way I would interpret the history to be. I think I wrote my first article on the Battle of Crooked river, tried to spell that out a little bit and examine what happened and why. And anyway, that was kind of my first venture into that. And Lamar just kind of took me under his belt. He'd take me out to Missouri and help do some excavations there at Hans Mill. And I ran into Clark Johnson and he did his voluminous Mormon redress petitions. And most people would read that and go to sleep. Man, I couldn't sleep. It was fantastic. I got a real incredible, intense overview of the problems in Missouri. So those directed reading classes can do a lot. So anyway, that kind of launched my interest in the period of history basically again, northern Missouri. And that was my dissertation. I entitled it A Call to arms. The 1838 Mormon defense of Northern Missouri. What happened in that entire episode and conflict and, and why did it happen? And better understanding of it. And so anyway, that, that did it. I was hooked. And you know, Scott and Casey, you think about it. Missouri has an ancient past. We know that Brigham mentioned that Joseph said Garden of Eden was Jackson County, Missouri. And then we have this eight year period in Missouri that were filled with tension and conflict and oh, it was just the Saints there should be so honored. But then, you know, we're, we're back, I guess you might say. And Missouri's a whole different scenario now. But the amazing thing, Scott and Casey is Zion still will be established in Missouri. I may not be around, but started there and it's going to wrap up there. I believe that with all my heart Zion will yet rise again. So pretty exciting.
- [07:22]
Scott
Well, let's get into some of the particulars. I think it's fair to say that our audience are kind of like enthusiastic amateurs. So I don't know if we need to go into excruciating detail, which I know you can do, by the way. You just know a ton. But can you give us kind of an overview of the factors that led to this 1838-39 conflict? Kind of the road to Liberty Jail. And what the main issues were at play between the older settlers and the Saints in the area.
- [07:52]
Alex Baugh
Like to divide it into three kind of periods. And the first is the Jackson county period, 1831-33. We could say early 34. We're trying to establish Zion. We get expelled, we go into Clay County. Now, I think Latter Day Saints should understand. We. We really had to go somewhere. And when the actions against Latter Day Saints in the. In late 1833 play out, we actually hire four attorneys and they're from Clay County. I'm absolutely convinced that when we go there, the reason we're going there is they're saying, why don't you come here and we'll see what we can do to help you. And the Clay county citizens were, quite frankly, quite good to us. Michael Arthur and some others. I could go in number of names there. But the expectation of the Clay county citizens was that we wouldn't stay there forever.
- [08:43]
Scott
I should mention Clay county is the county just to the north of Jackson County. So when the Saints are expelled, they cross the Missouri and they're in Clay county. And that's where Liberty is.
- [08:54]
Alex Baugh
And all those places, politically, you just cross the river. And it was a different kind of county. It was named after Henry Clay the Whig. Jackson county was named after Andrew Jackson the Democrat. The climate was completely, not completely different, but quite a bit different. But by 1836, they're going. You know, we really didn't plan on you staying forever just to make them make it kind of short. Alexander Doniphan, key player. Also David Rice Atchison, both terrific individuals. And our attorneys said maybe we could look for a place for you where you could actually have your own county. And so they explored spring and summer of 36, and sure enough, they go into the area of Shoal Creek. Good timber, good water. We basically start buying up there and establish ourselves in what will become Caldwell County. And significantly, that same year, Alexander Doniphan is elected to the state legislature from our region, that western portion of Missouri. And he introduces a bill in December of 1836 creating a county for the Latter Day Saints. Now, he didn't get all that he wanted. We had to cut it in half a little bit. And the county to the north was created. Davies for kind of non Latter Day Saint occupation and Caldwell for the Mormons. But. And by the way, I have to use that term because it's a historic term. That's what we. I mean, we should always refer to them Latter Day Saints today. But I think your viewers know we're talking Mormons at that point in time. But anyway, they create this county. Well, what does that mean? Well, we can elect our own county officials, officers. We can create our own militia, military group, if you will. We have Latter Day Saints who. Men who get commissioned officers. So we think this is pretty good. We've got our own county, and things go quite well, actually. But things are not going well in Kirtland by 1838. And we have the Kirtland safe side, which you've talked about, and some of those problems. And clearly Joseph Smith's recognizing we're going to have to pack and leave. Well, where do we go? Well, far West. And he makes a quick trip out here in 18 November, December 1837, and goes back to Kirtland. And on January 12, he gets a revelation. You move. And he and Cindy Rigdon and main leadership of the church immediately come. He arrives on March 14, 1838. And I have to tell you, the apostasy that happened in Kirtland is kind of extended. We have additional problems here in Far west, and we lose a number of other leading church officers, primarily the Missouri Presidency, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, W.W. phelps. And we lose Cowdery, we lose McClellan. These men, some of them become dissenters and cause problems. There's the decision made that we need to help them leave. And so that creates a problem, a number of other problems. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, but the point is, by mid-1838, we're firmly established. We've been there for coming on two years, but there's still some problems, and they emerge in kind of internally. But then we have people externally causing problems as well, because maybe I could just say this Lyman White goes up into Davies county and decides to live up there on the Grand River. Well, that's fine, but I'm sure some Missourians felt like you should. I thought we created county for you. Why are you up up here?
- [12:41]
Casey
Stay in your box. Right. Stay in your Mormon box. Don't leave.
- [12:44]
Alex Baugh
Yeah. And then in section 115, Joseph is told to search out other places of settlement. And the reason is, is they're anticipating all these Kirtland Saints to come out and they need places to settle. Well, if they don't have money, where can they settle? Well, they can settle up in Davies county because you don't even have to pay for right now, you could lay out a claim of 160 acres. And when that land was surveyed, you got first dubs on that land. So if you don't have any money, let's. You can't buy in Caldwell because you need money. It's been surveyed, but not in Davies County. So they start establishing smaller pockets of settlements in Davies County. And then Joseph smith received Section 116 talking about where Adam on Diamond is. Well, that's kind of exciting. So let's go up there. So that got the Davies county people a bit agitated. We have the election day battle. That's really a fracas.
- [13:36]
Casey
That was in Davies county, wasn't it, at Gallatin?
- [13:39]
Alex Baugh
Yeah, at Gallatin, August 6th. Nobody died, but there was some. Lots of bumps and bruises and cracked skulls and so on and so forth. And that just kind of launches this animosity against the Latter Day Saints.
- [13:52]
Casey
And is it fair to say that the major issue that people had with the Saints voting in Gallatin was that they're supposed to stay down in their box in Caldwell? Like, why are you coming up here and influencing politics in the county, in Davies county, when we actually already created a spot for you? I mean, is that part of the. The animosity?
- [14:10]
Alex Baugh
Yeah, that's. That's part of the equation. And, and we supported this man by the name of Morin, and this William Penniston didn't get elected, so he's going to rile his buddies and, and say, hey, we don't want these guys anymore. So it's. It's so complex. But the result of that, of course, is that they're going to try to retaliate against Latter Day Saints. And then we pick up with our own kind of, well, we can defend ourselves. And, you know, you've Talked about Section 98 of the Doctrine Covenants. The Lord talks about how if your enemies come against you once, you forgive them, and twice and three times that eventually you can kind of stand your ground. And I think these Latter Day Saints kind of felt that we've been pushed around a little bit. We have every right to be here. And that, of course, just escalates more and more. Then we have. Hans Mill. I. I won't go into all that because that's a whole nother episode in itself, but things just broke down so quickly in 1838. But I can see how it happened. But it's so sad that that was so much animosity because of what we're trying to just hold our ground and all of a sudden things are not working out for us. So it's just a tough time in the church.
- [15:33]
Scott
Hans Mill, though we don't have to go into Great detail. But it is in Caldwell county, is it not? Like it's part of the Mormon box? So it feels like even if we hadn't been expanding into these other counties like Davies and Livingston, that the fix was in. I mean, if Hans Mill was attacked, that's in the territory that's established for the Saints. Is there any course you can see where the Saints weren't going to come into conflict with their neighbors?
- [16:00]
Alex Baugh
Well, just to maybe bring back up just a little bit when they start trying to take control over the Latter Day Saints in Davies county, the militia is called out. Doniphan was also an officer, as is was David Rice Atchison. He was actually the head of the entire militia in this region. They go up to Davies county and basically settle the peace and says, the Mormons have every right to be here. You leave them alone. They backed off for a while, but ultimately, and it's sad, but Lyman White said, well, you know, we have every right to be here. Why don't we just do kind of what they did to us? And they basically said, and we had the numbers, at least significant enough numbers to say, you know, why don't you guys leave and we'll give you 24 hours, and if you don't, we'll make sure you do. And so these guys go over into Carroll County. They rally the troops over there and says. They say, well, you know, there's this small little hamlet just inside Caldwell county, and we won't drive them out. Why don't we just send a message, Just let's kill them. And so the people who actually came against the Saints in Caldwell county were the expelled Davies county citizens, the Carroll county citizens, and the Mormons living at Hans Mill were just innocent victims. They hadn't done anything to anybody. They were just their own little hamlet. Joseph knows this is going to help. And immediately the extermination order is called for. Troops march on far west. Finally, again, the Latter Day Saints said surrendered. So they'll leave. But boy, just a series of unfortunate events that you could never have predicted. Never. I don't think it could have happened anywhere else. That kind of an activity against us and our efforts to try to establish and maintain what we feel was rightfully permissible, to live where we wanted to live. So kind of tough.
- [18:02]
Casey
One of the persistent stories about the conflict in this time is concerns the Danites, right? This, this group. Casey and I have talked about them a little bit, but what do you want to say about the Danites and what we know about their activity and involvement on behalf of the Saints during this time.
- [18:17]
Alex Baugh
Well, you have to understand, too, that again, and particularly in the frontier, there has to be some sort of group to maintain order. And so these counties could actually have their own militias, and we had ours. There's also what I just like to call a paramilitary group. They're. They're these kind of people who, for lack of better word, maybe a war hawk. They'll. They'll. They'll. They're a little bit more of a fire brand. And this group kind of begins to go a little bit overboard in terms of trying to secure Latter Day Saint rites and take actions that they probably shouldn't have done, all under the guise of a militia. But they're kind of. Some of them were legitimate Caldwell county militia individuals. They had their own officers and things like that. And that got a little out of hand. And Sampson Abart is this guy who really takes it to the extreme. Unfortunately, again, that contributed. And of course, these Missourians are going, boy, who are these guys who are coming after us now? And Lyman White up in Davies county, he organized the Danite group up there, but he had a military commission from the state. So there's kind of this mixing of these firebrands and these regular militia who's meant to defend and help and secure peace. And sadly, of course, because of that escalation and the problems that happened, Governor Boggs issues this extermination order, which I could say is not so much of an annihilation order, but a removal order. I'm fully convinced he expected us to remove from Missouri. If we didn't, then greater steps would be taken against us. But I think a lot of Latter Day Saints might have this conception that he was saying it was legal to kill Latter Day Saints. It didn't go that far. It was. Let's try to get them to capitulate. If they don't, then we'll take more extreme measures.
- [20:17]
Casey
So were there anyone who did kill a Latter Day Saint or was anyone ever brought to justice, like for Hans Mill or any other murders of Latter Day Saints during this time?
- [20:27]
Alex Baugh
And the answer, I think we can safely say, is no.
- [20:30]
Casey
But isn't that where the idea comes from that it's now legal to kill Mormons because he said exterminated or removed from the state? Right.
- [20:36]
Alex Baugh
I think you could actually word it better in the sense that the Mormons must be exterminated or in other words, driven from the state. It was, like I say, you look at Webster's 1838 dictionary, exterminate us means Annihilate, totally destroy. The first definition of exterminate, 1838 in the Webster's 28 Dictionary, was to remove from within one. We'll just send them out somewhere else, let somebody else deal with them. And if they don't go, then we'll will have to take more extreme measures. And maybe I can. I'll tie that in at the very end because it relates to the fact that the Mormon prisoners, particularly Liberty Jail, are going to be released because we agreed to do what they did, what we said we would do, and that's we left the state. So they're going to let Joseph and his cohorts lead. So I think it's evident of that kind of situation.
- [21:28]
Scott
It's not a friendly word. I think we can all agree. You don't say, hey, I'm planning on exterminating you to someone that you intend to have a long and fruitful relationship with. But yeah, you're right, maybe we do take that a little too far because we make all these jokes about how it was legal to kill a Mormon in Missouri until 1976, and that's probably not what the order meant, but still. So we've covered in generalities the war, but we're focusing on Liberty Jail here. But one of the things that we wanted to mention is they're taken to several jails before Liberty Jail. They go to Richmond and Independence and then they settle in Liberty Jail. Can you tell us a little bit about the other jails? Because I know you've also, you've taken me to the site of Richmond Jail in Richmond, and there's a little marker there that I think you had a big role in setting up so that people would know where Richmond Jail was located or at least where Joseph Smith was held while he was in Richmond. Can you tell us a little bit about those other jail stays that lead to Liberty jail?
- [22:25]
Alex Baugh
When Governor Boggs calls out these 2,500 troops to come march on Far west, the idea was let's get them to capitulate. Let's make sure that they're going to leave. Well, who do you go after? Well, let's go after Joseph Smith, obviously, the First Presidency, Sidney Rigdon Hyrum Smith, and anyone who may have been involved in some of these conflicts between our state militia, although many of them were, you know, just couldn't wait to take their hand against the Mormons. But the point is, now we're going to have to arrest somebody. So the idea is, let's go after the First Presidency and anyone else we can possibly find who might have been guilty of actual perpetrations against the state militia on October 31st. Hinkle, George M. Hinkle, who has a state commissioned office officer as colonel. He meets with the general in charge. At that time, it should have been actually Acheson who was friendly towards the Mormons, but he had been relieved of his duties by Boggs, partially because Atchison was sympathetic to the Mormons. But Sam Lucas took over in the absence of Acheson, and he went right after Joseph Smith and demanded Hinkle bring Joseph Smith and other key LDS leaders to him. And Hinkle later would say that, of course, that I was just bringing them down. But it's very clear now, I think that Hinkle was trying to save his own backside. And he brings them down and says, here are your prisoners. Joseph thought it was just going to be a negotiation kind of thing. And so they arrest them on 31st October. During the next couple of weeks, they round up 64 Latter Day Saint men who were believed to have been part of some of the activities against some of the Missourians. The initial arrests were, of course, Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, several others. And Lucas was not the officer in charge. Actually, the other guy was supposed to be a man from Howard county. That's John B. Clark, and he wasn't there. So Lucas didn't know what to do with Joseph and the First Presidency and these other prisoners, Harley Pratt was one of them. And so he takes them down to Independence, and they arrive on November 4, 1838. They put him in a kind of a log house, and they're just waiting for John B. Clark to come and tell them what to do with these prisoners. And so while they're waiting, Joseph and the prisoners are actually treated quite nicely. They're there for four days. Word comes Clark's arrived in Far west, and he demands Lucas. He was the person who arrested them, but he knows Clark's in charge. He, Clark said, take him over to Richmond for a hearing. This is not going to be a military hearing. It's going to be a civil hearing. So on the 12th of November, they arrive in Richmond and they'll be there until the 29th or 30th of November, and there will be a hearing there against these Latter Day Saints. It's to determine is there some probable cause for these men to be here, what did that, what happened, and are they involved in it in any way. And at the end of the hearing, Austin King, the circuit court judge, determined there was Probable cause against Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Hiram Smith, Caleb Baldwin, Alexander McCray and Iman White. Those six. Our attorneys during that time was Peter Harderman Burnett and Alexander W. Donipha. Well, they're from Liberty, and the judge granted. Judge King granted them the permission to take them to Liberty, but partially also because the jail in Richmond was not completed and there were several Latter Day Saints. I ought to give you those names. Morris, Phelps, Boom and Gibbs, Norman Shear, Darwin, Chase, later King, Follett. They're going to be imprisoned in Richmond Jail. And then those six I mentioned are going to be imprisoned in Liberty Jail. And that worked out great for us because Doniphan and Peter Harderman Burnett were Liberty residents. In fact, Doniphan's house was just steps away from the Liberty Jail. So there really wasn't enough room in the Richmond jail, but there was room in the Liberty Jail. Now I call it Liberty Jail, but it was actually the Clay County Jail in Liberty. So we've. We've kind of shortened it, but that was the county jail.
- [27:06]
Scott
Liberty Jail just has a nicer ring to it. I think there's the ironic juxtaposition.
- [27:12]
Alex Baugh
Exactly. I mean, it's kind of a bad name for a jail.
- [27:16]
Scott
Richmond is where the silency fiends of the infernal pit episode takes place. But the jail there wasn't finished. And I think the location that you tracked down was not a jail.
- [27:27]
Alex Baugh
Right.
- [27:27]
Scott
Joseph Smith was being held in some kind of log cabin structure. And that's where the episode happens, where the guards are abusing them and bragging about all the things that you've done, and Joseph Smith rises up and soundly rebukes them. Is that correct?
- [27:42]
Alex Baugh
That's correct. The author of that, of course, is Parley P. Pratt, who was confined with them in that small log house, I should mention, and I failed to do so, that while that hearing was being held, Sam Bogart, who was an officer from Ray county, rounded up a total of 64 men and brought them down to Richmond for that hearing that they figured were involved in this problem, in the problems up in Caldwell county and Davies County. So there were 64. They didn't even have room for them. So they put them in the courthouse and let them sleep on the courthouse floor. It was unfinished courthouse, but Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Parley Pratt and a couple of others, Parley Pratt included, are in the log house while the rest of them are having this hearing. And they wake up in the morning and the hearings in the courthouse, where they're just getting out they had to cook their own meals and everything. When the whole thing's over, we just have a handful that stay there in Richmond. And one of those is Parley Pratt. Also Lumen Gibbs, Darwin Chase, Norman Shearer, they're confined to Richmond Jail. But Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, Caleb Baldwin, Lyman White and Alexander McCrae are sent over to Liberty. So we have two groups, small now by this time the others posted bail and they're just going to leave the state. But they sent them over to Liberty and that was the best place for them in the sense that this is where we can meet with our attorneys and get some help from them as we prepare now for the final hearing. And Judge King issued the date, I believe, was in March for the final hearing. So once Joseph hears that and these other prisoners, they realize we're going to be in that jail for a long time. And then even in March, it was extended. They didn't get out till April to have the hearing. But that was going to be in Gallatin. We can talk about that later. But the point is, I think Joseph, when he was initially arrested, thought, well, a couple of weeks maybe.
- [29:40]
Casey
And so they're. And they're put into the Liberty Jail, what, December 1, 1838.
- [29:45]
Alex Baugh
So they probably left on the 29th, her 30th of November, got over there. I think many of you know the story. Joseph climbed the stairs and kind of waved at the crowd and said, good day, gentlemen. Kind of like, we're here. But I don't know how they took it that Joseph kind of just played up, played up the scene a little bit and entered the jail. So they'll be in there 127 days until April 6, 1839.
- [30:11]
Casey
Now paint a picture for us of what it was like in the jail, in Liberty Jail, and, and tell us about the weather during that time. Wasn't this also one of the coldest winters on record? Like kind of paint that whole scene for us, Alex. Like, what would it have been like to be there for all those days?
- [30:27]
Alex Baugh
This jail was built in 1833, so it's fairly new. But this is a secure jail. Basically 22 by 22 and a half feet, two foot mortared limestone rock. You had to build the shell first, but the shell was these large square timbers, foot square. And then build that. And then of course, you build the exterior and then you place rock in between the exterior and the interior timber. So you have basically four foot walls. So that knocks off a lot of space. So on the inside, it's 14ft by 14 and a half feet. That's my office is a lot bigger than that. So it's a very secure place. Two chambers, one on the upper floor, one on the bottom floor. They had small windows. The ones on the top were larger, ones on the bottom, a little bit smaller steel bars embedded probably on the inside of the timbers, not on the outside in the stone. Andrew Jensen and some others visited there in 1888, gave us really good descriptions of what the jail was like. But as you know, with limited lighting, it was dark and dingy. You can imagine, even during the middle of the day, sun shining. It was pretty dreary. Psychologically, I think that would be a tough place to be. You're in close confinement. I mean, good people, don't get me wrong, but same four walls, maybe a kerosene lamp, a little bit of furniture, pretty dreary. If we could kind of just step back in time, I think we can kind of figure a few things out. And based upon some statements, I think we can kind of understand their conditions a little bit. So number one, I was trying to say is very dark and dreary, dingy. It would have been cold. Obviously, this is now November. Actually December, it's cold. And I don't know if it's the coldest on record, but Missouri cold is cold and you got a lot of humidity. That's number one. The one thing I was able to discover is there was a stove upstairs. I was able to find that in the local historical society there that they. In the early 1840s, they purchased a replacement stove. So we know there was a stove, but so they had heat at least upstairs, not downstairs. And there would have been a flu. All the pictures, you don't see it because it's gone, but at least they had warmth upstairs. And there would have been some sort of furnishings. A makeshift couch with some. Maybe straw mattresses or some tables and chairs. So there's limited space. There's not a lot they could put there. That upstairs, according to Andrew Jensen, was 7ft in height. There would have been a trap door. It's portrayed as being in the center of the building, but more than likely was probably on the side or corners. That would have been a trap door with a ladder to actually raise and lower to let them down in there. For years they had a rope at the recreated Liberty Jail. And that would have been extremely hard for guys like Sidney Rigdon, who is corpulent, to try to pull himself up through that. It was definitely a ladder. And we know in the Richmond jail. Pratt tells about his wife coming down and actually being able to be in the dungeon with them and taking out his manuscripts for his book on the Missouri persecutions in her dress. And she went up the ladder anyway. More than likely a ladder, not a rope. But the downstairs conditions would have been much different because you've got just a small, relatively small trapdoor. They would have spent the daytime hours in the upper floor. The lower floor. They would have been secured there at night. So to answer the question that you may have, that's where the honey bucket would be. And that makes total sense because during the day you'd want some privacy, so you just go downstairs, or they would let you outside to go do your duty or whatever. But at night, if they're locked in, they need a place where they can relieve themselves.
- [34:27]
Casey
They were able to go upstairs, and they spent a lot of time upstairs as well. But it was at the nighttime. They were always in the base. In the. In the dungeon cell.
- [34:34]
Alex Baugh
I would say, generally speaking, they were, yes. Also, we have a number of visitors coming. We know that they were privileged to actually stay there. More than likely, they had some sort of arrangement for them to stay upstairs while the men were downstairs in the dungeon during the night. And that's why Joseph said it was so cold. There was a windows, or those openings are open. And he talks about trying to build a fire. Well, you get a little heat, but you got smoke now you got to deal with ventilation is terrible, and it's cold. I mean, in the summer, it would have been a lot different. It would have been a nice, cool place to go, but cool in the sense of cooler. They were constantly cold down there. There's just no question. And then, of course, if you're cold, you get sick. And then that complicates things as well.
- [35:17]
Scott
The popular understanding is that they were just in the basement the entire time. You're saying most of the time in the day they're on the top floor. They're going to the basement to use the facilities, to use the honey bucket. And they also sleep down there. So maybe Liberty Jail is not as bad as we sometimes depict it as being, but it's pretty bad.
- [35:37]
Alex Baugh
Oh, yeah. Nobody wants to be there. And that makes it easier for the guard. Now, I do have the one statement of a guard who mentions that there was a guard house outside. So they would check prisoners or check people going in, check them coming out, so on and so forth. But there was definitely a guardhouse. I've only found one reference, but there was a Guardhouse. Now, in some other jails in Missouri, the jailer actually had an apartment adjacent to or part of the jail in Columbia where Parley P. Pratt ends up for his final hearing. And those Richmond prisoners, that jailer lived in that jail. There was an apartment for them.
- [36:16]
Scott
Well, of course, Carthage Jail, the other famous jail from church. It's actually the jailer's home. And then the cell is just one room.
- [36:23]
Alex Baugh
Yeah, very, very typical. But this one wasn't. I think there's the misnomer. And it's probably because of Alexander McCrae. But the McCrae family said that the Alexander McCray was six feet, six, six and a half feet and couldn't stand up in the jail. Well, Andrew Jensen said the top floor was about seven feet, the bottom was about six and a half feet. No one ever said they couldn't stand up. And again, they spent most of their time upstairs. Anyway, some of the latest Pictures taken about 1897, 98. And I tried to. I can see where the top floor and lower floor are, and it's definitely at least six and a half feet. I think just by eyeballing it.
- [37:05]
Scott
You sent me to measure the door to Liberty Jail, which was kept in the community of Christ Temple. And then you used that to calculate how high the. That's how detailed you are. I was just excited to see the door, which I should mention is now in. In our church's ownership and is in Salt Lake.
- [37:23]
Alex Baugh
Casey, you were the one that broke that for me. I could finally now use something to measure the door, which could measure the exterior stonework, which could give me approximations for size.
- [37:33]
Scott
Yeah. And I was happy to be your. Your measuring tape guy. That's what I contributed, basically.
- [37:39]
Alex Baugh
I'm not kidding you. That broke it open for me. So I really appreciate that.
- [37:43]
Scott
Well, I got to ask you about another big myth, which is the Mormon beef story. So where they fed human flesh while they were in Liberty Jail. That's a persistent story that gets told a lot.
- [37:53]
Alex Baugh
Okay. There's a couple of things here that kind of. They come together. The answer to that is no. Now, they perceive that, I think. And part of it is that they talked about the guards joking that they were giving them Mormon beef. You can look at that a couple of ways. Number one is the militia and others confiscated LDS cat Mormon cattle and would bring them back, of course, as their own. And then they would probably kill them and give them meat and so on, so forth from those. Those cattle. That. That's one way to look at it. I think that was probably true. But the other thing is they claim it was from a Mormon himself, a member of the church who was killed, that they were feeding them on that. We have a couple accounts of that. Well, that is a real problem, and I've solved that as well. And it's kind of hard to explain, but George A. Smith wrote this. 1838, his 8. This. I'm trying to remember when he wrote it. But anyway, it's a history of Zion's Camp. And in that history, he puts a person down who was part of the Zion's camp. His name was William Weeden. W E E D E N. And William Weeden was on Zion's camp. And then out to the side, it said fed. I'm paraphrasing fed to the prisoners in Liberty Jail. The problem with that is William Weeden died in the cholera of 1834.
- [39:17]
Scott
We're talking like four years between his death and when he was apparently fed to the men in Liberty Jail.
- [39:24]
Alex Baugh
And then William T. Wood, who was one of the attorneys for the Latter Day Saints early on, and he's later a judge there, in fact, he's going to help or he's. I think he's one of the prosecuting judges when Sidney Rigdon comes to trial. But the point is, he read this article from the Deseret News or Deseret Evening News in Salt Lake City. You know how they pass around these feature stories and other newspapers pick them up. This is decades later, he reads that they talk about in this account of the jail experience that the Latter Day Saint prisoners were fed human flesh. And he goes, that's hogwash. That did not happen. I can tell you this explicitly. Our attorneys, again Doniphan and Peter Hardman Burnett, would not have allowed for that. There is no way. Joseph Smith said in his. In these accounts and the others, the food was coarse, meaning, you know, they got what they got. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't Texas Roadhouse. Believe me, the food was not good, but it wasn't human flesh. They did not do that. They would not allow for that. Those attorneys would have been on that quicker than any. When Andrew Jensen comes back there in 1888, James Ford, who was one of the deputy sheriffs, said, no, that didn't happen. That is prisoner abuse. And they would not have allowed for that at all.
- [40:44]
Scott
And we should mention that they were given periods outside the jail, like they were allowed to go up and walk around. You mentioned that Alexander Doniphan, like, walked him down to the courthouse and things like that. That it was pretty bad. But again sometimes we over dramaticize how bad it was.
- [41:02]
Alex Baugh
I have to tell you, thank goodness for Lyman White. He kept a journal while he was in there. And that journal was published by the Reorganized Church in the late 1890s. And then as Casey, you probably know their office up there in Lamona, Iowa. Their printing office burned and it burned all of Lyman White's journals. But the 1838 winter journal of 3839 journal of Lyman White is in one of their four volumes. He mentions you know who's here on this certain day. You might, I guess we could talk about it now. But the point is I've got over 70 people visiting the jail just from Lyman White's journal that was published but it's no longer in existence because it got burned in the fire of the Saints Herald. That's what I was trying to say. They published Saints Herald up in Lamona, Iowa where the headquarters of the Reorganized Church was. But that journal is just incredible. In fact, in that journal, in the published version, Lyman White goes left the jail, returned at 10am Words to that effect. They let him walk around a little bit. Now oftentimes they would have been probably under guard. And James Ford said that he occasionally took him out for a good dinner that he might have been in chain but they would have been under guard. And we know, for example William T. Wood said that Joseph in preparing for their hearing Joseph came and talked to him and they that he's got an office right there in Liberty. I guess Joseph was getting kind of bored and he looked at his library, at William Woods Library and said can I borrow a book? And he gave him Robert Burns poems. He took it to the jail, obviously could read it when he could. I guess if there was enough light. But funny thing he said on there. Then he went off to. They took him to Gallatin. He didn't give my book back. So you know, you gotta pass time. And if you're in jail they don't have computers and everything else, newspapers at least they could maybe read a book once in a while. So they're getting out exercising, you know, they would be under guard most of the time. But although Lyman White said he actually was able to leave I guess on his own on reconnaissance and he came back. So kind of interesting.
- [43:13]
Casey
And you mentioned that Lyman had. Had mentioned 70 people have come to visit. Like do you want to tell us about some of those? Would we recognize the names of any of those individuals who were allowed to come and visit?
- [43:24]
Alex Baugh
Probably the most important are the Wives of the prisoners. Emma comes three times, so they're put in on December 1st, and she comes on the 8th and the 9th. So she stayed overnight and she brought Joseph Smith III with him, with her. Excuse me. And she comes back again on the 20th through the 22nd. Now, at times they may be staying with other people, but it's implied that they may also have been staying at the jail. And if they did, they would have to pay for the meal. The jailer's wife would. Would charge them for the meal. The last time Emma comes is on January 21, 1839. So she brings Joseph Smith III twice. And that makes total sense because as far as we can tell, she left Far west for Quincy on February 7th. She's gone after that point. Hyrum's wife, Mary Fielding, only came once. According to the journal by White, she.
- [44:17]
Scott
Had just given birth too. Right. Like this is right after little Joseph F. Smith, future president of the church, has been born.
- [44:24]
Alex Baugh
Exactly. He was born on November 13. By that time, Joseph and the prisoners were actually over in Richmond as that hearing had just begun. So he didn't see the birth of his son, Joseph F. This was. This would have been her first child. But she only comes once because she's so ill. She had a hard birth and she brought her sister, Mercy Fielding Thompson with her, but she did not stay overnight. According to the record there, Rigden's wife Phoebe came on the 8th and 9th. That's the same day as Emma. She also comes on January 3rd. That looks like it's the last time she saw Sidney. And that makes total sense because Sydney is going to get out early in late January. He's not in good health, and they're already preparing for him to possibly be released. Alexander McCray, his wife Eunice, comes on December 13th through the 15th. I'm not sure if she comes again, but there's an account by the McCrae family that she came one time and had some of the beef that was supposed to be Mormon beef or something like that. And then Caleb Baldwin, his wife, comes on the 20th through the 22nd, which is the same day as Emma. And then also January 27th. And then Lyman White's wife Harriet comes on the 8th and 9th. So they. That 8th and 9th, several of the women came and she brought some children who was there from the 10th to the 12th. So it sounds like she came for a couple of days, left some of her kids for a couple of days, or maybe she was still with them. And then there's the account that Lyman White blessed one of his children there. Now, I say that because I done an article on this that Hyrum probably blessed Joseph F. Smith in the jail.
- [46:08]
Scott
Yeah. Does Hyrum first see Joseph F. Smith in the jail? That's probably the first time he saw his son.
- [46:14]
Alex Baugh
Yep. And it would be an appropriate time for the actual blessing. I say that because Lyman White, of course, also said that Joseph Smith III was blessed by Joseph. So I think Lyman set the precedents for go ahead and bless your children. I mean, we're here, we might as well give them a blessing. But there's a lot of them. The one that I can find coming the most is Peter Hardiman Burnett. And again, he's one of the attorneys, so he's checking in on his clients, as is Donovan. Donovan comes on December 17, the 21st, the 9th, 39. So you can see his attorneys are. The attorneys are working with them to say, okay, what do we need to do to get this case underway and how are we going to defend them? So there's a lot, I don't know, some non members, non Latter Day Saints, Mr. Newberry, Mr. Samuels, John Daly. I think he's probably an LDS individual, but I'm going to finish this study up. But I would say that there is probably maybe upwards about 90 to 100, maybe even.
- [47:21]
Casey
How do we reconcile this idea that all these Latter Day Saints are able to come visit them while at the same time there's an extermination order in that state? Like, how would Saints be allowed to come to Missouri to visit? Or are those visits all before they leave to go to Quincy?
- [47:35]
Alex Baugh
We complied. We agreed we would leave the state. And I think with that, things kind of back off. And we demonstrated that. And when the final hearing is held for them, they decide to hold it up in Gallatin, which is where some of the atrocities that the Mormons combined, you know, did against the their neighbors took place. When they go up there, the presiding judge was a guy by the name of Thomas Burch. Now, Thomas Burch was a prosecuting prosecutor at the Richmond hearing. And now they've made him the judge up there, which is conflict of interest, quite frankly. But the judge ruled that they would have a change of venue. They can't get a fair hearing up in Gallatin. And so he takes the request of the attorney, which at this point was Peter Harderman Burnett. Donovan did not come. That Peter Harderman Burnett did request a change of venue to Boone county, which is where Columbia City of Columbia, Missouri is. That's where Parley P Pratt, Lumen Gibbs, Norman Shearer, that's where they are. The instructions given to the guard who is supposed to take them down there when you get far enough away, make it look good, but we're going to let them go. The Latter Day Saints who comply, they have left. And so that was the agreement. Once you leave the state, I mean, you leave the state, we'll leave you alone kind of thing. Now, maybe initially, no, those first couple of days after the surrender or the that, but they're going to leave them alone. Brigham Young comes down on February 3rd. He's so busy, he can't get down there to go see Joseph Smith because he's leaving within just a matter of days to go to Quincy. So my point is, I think they're pretty okay with the fact Latter Day Saints can visit because they are doing what we said they should do, and that is leave the state.
- [49:29]
Scott
We're making the jail sound much less bad than it's usually depicted, but it was pretty bad. Like, aren't there several escape attempts as well where they're trying to just get out of there? Because the conditions are pretty bad.
- [49:43]
Alex Baugh
Certainly, you know, it's an unhealthy environment, for one thing. I mean, it's cold. It's. I've never been in solitary confinement, never will be. But the point is it's not pleasant and it's dark and there's a lot of downtime. There were some. Some things that were okay, but certainly not glamorous. They would try to do what they had to do. After just several weeks, you're going to be pretty despondent and depressed. And it's winter and it's cold. If we just got out of here, they'll leave us alone if we can get away, you know, kind of thing. So they did have one attempted escape and Rigdon was out by this time. On February 7, 1839, six Mormon men, Allanson Ripley or Lanson Ripley, Jonathan Watson Barlow, William D. Huntington, David Holman, Rastus Snow and Cyrus Daniels visited the Mormon prisoners in Liberty Jail and they made an attempt to help them escape. They're admitted into the the main upper story and Cyrus Daniels tried to leave the jail before the attempted break. But the remaining five men tried to detain the jailer at that time was a man by the name of Samuel Tillery. He succeeded in warning the outside guards who secured the door. Now, James Ford, who I've mentioned before, who Andrew Jensen interviewed when he came back, he was one of the guards and he struck Erastus Snow on, on the Head and another guard fired at Daniels but missed. Daniel was making his way out. That was a foiled attempt to try to kind of overrun the guard. And because of that, those five men were held in the jail and charged with being accessories to the attempted escape. And they were there for six days, and they had to be in that jail with the other LDS Mormon prisoners. Snow was acquitted. He was only like 18 years old, dressed as Snow. But the remaining four had to post bail at $150 each, and they were released. So for about a little less than a week, you've got five men in the jail and, well, an additional five men, I guess you might say. So shortly after that, on March of the first week of March, the prisoners attempted to make a breach in the jail wall by using augers. And as you know, that the inside would have been timber. And this timber was so hard, the auger handles gave out, which delayed them until the secret was made known to the authorities. So apparently they probably went down and checked on this. And of course, they wouldn't want to do it on the upper floor. They'd do it on the lower one, where the guard rarely would go. Lyman Wright reported that a man by the name of Shoemaker who was helping them in some way leaked the information about the attempted escape. Joseph later reported in one of his letters to the Church of Quincy, quote, we could have made our escape in one minute and should have succeeded had it not been for a little imprudence or over anxiety on the part of our friend. So they did try a couple of times, even though, you know, they were unsuccessful. But again, I think this thing is dragging out and they're just kind of becoming a little bit antsy about trying to get out of there.
- [53:07]
Casey
That second attempt happened before Joseph wrote the two letters that we now have in the Doctrine and Covenants, at least excerpts from. And so we have those teachings because of that foiled attempt in some way, right? You could say that because he had to stay there and continue to write letters, we're going to get some beautiful teachings.
- [53:25]
Alex Baugh
That's a great point, Scott. That was March 20th and 22nd. So they're almost out. They're going to be out in a month, a little over a month. But yeah, had they not stayed in there, we'd never have those. That's a great point.
- [53:37]
Casey
What are some of the other teachings from the Prophet that come out of Liberty Jail? I know he wrote a lot of letters, and we. You've gone through all of that. Is there any. Anything. Any other gems from Liberty Jail that you'd want to share with our listeners that you think are worth considering.
- [53:52]
Alex Baugh
Yeah, this is Joseph Smith is almost out. I mean it's March 15th and Presendia Huntington Buell came and they wouldn't let her in partially because of that attempted escape. Joseph said this. It has been the plan of the devil to hamper me and distress me from the beginning, to keep me from explaining myself to them, meaning the church. And I'd never had the opportunity to give them the plan that God has revealed to me. I think that's significant because again, we'll get the full program in Nauvoo. But it just is kind of an indicator to me that Joseph is. He knows his calling is not done. He's got more that he needs to reveal to the Latter Day Saints. Here's one of the things that he kind of sees in terms of his self reflection. He said, trials will only give us that knowledge to understand the minds of the ancients. For my part, I think I never could have felt as I do now if I had not suffered the wrongs that I have suffered. All things shall work together for good to them that love God. So this is a refining influence for Joseph Smith. He mentions another one there I'll get in this same letter to Resendia Huntington Buell. He says to her, it seems to me that my heart will always be more tender after this than ever. It was during before. It was a refining, humbling, soul searching experience to have that kind of personal communion that he would probably undergo every day as he's contemplating what to do, what the future is, why these things happen, and how can he be blessed or how will it make me a better person? And then this is a great one. This is in that same d and c, 121, 122. He said God has said that he would have a tried people, that he would purge them as gold. Now we think that this time he has chosen his own crucible wherein we have been tried. And we think if we get through with any degree of safety and shall have kept the faith, that it will be a sign of this generation altogether sufficient to leave them without excuse. And we think also that it will be a trial of our faith equal to that of Abraham. And that the ancients will not have whereof to boast over us in the day of judgment as being called to pass through heavier afflictions, that we may hold an even weight in the balances with them. He's saying these ancients suffered in their own way and capacity, and we should be able to be equal unto them in their times of extremity and sorrow and hardship and suffering.
- [56:30]
Casey
It was bad for them, but it wasn't worse than what happened to us. That's interesting.
- [56:34]
Alex Baugh
Here's another one. We will not deny our religion because of the hand of oppression, but we will hold on until death. We say that God is true, that the Constitution in the United States is true, that the Bible is true, that the Book of Mormon is true, that the Book of Doctrine Covenants is true, that Christ is true. The ministering angels sent forth from God are true. And we know that we have a house not made with hands eternal in the heavens, whose builder and maker is God. He's bearing testimony there of the true fruitfulness of the restoration and our role in that. Maybe one more here. I wish when Orson Pratt crafted these or excerpted these, took these excerpts and made these sections 121, 122, and 123. I wish you would have put this one in. I think you would agree with me, but it's okay. The things of God are of deep import and time and experience and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens and search into and contemplate the lowest considerations of the darkest abyss and expand upon the broad considerations of eternal expanse. He must commune with God. Wow. I think Joseph's mind has been very active in those dark and lonely moments as he's tried to explain and understand the purposes for mortality and who we are and what we're trying to become and what God has for us if we will remain true and faithful.
- [58:06]
Casey
Now you got me thinking. Whether or not he had just been reading some Robert Burns poetry, that.
- [58:12]
Alex Baugh
There you go.
- [58:13]
Casey
That comes out so flowery and poetic as Joseph is writing that. So good.
- [58:17]
Scott
Someone needs to do a Joseph Smith Robert Burns comparison now that we know about that source.
- [58:23]
Casey
Yeah, I brought it up so Casey could research it. That's how this works.
- [58:27]
Alex Baugh
This one is so inspirational to me, and I think to our listeners and viewers, this is just electric. Hell may pour forth its rage like the burning lava of Mount Vesuvius or of Aetna, or of the most terrible of the burning mountains. And yet shall Mormonism stand. Truth is Mormonism. God is the author of it. He is our shield. It is by him we received our birth. It was by his voice that we were called to a dispensation of his Gospel. In the beginning of the fullness of times. It was by him we received the Book of Mormon. And it is by him that we remain unto this day. And by him we shall remain, if it shall be for our glory. And in his almighty name. We are determined to endure tribulation as good soldiers unto the end. Is that not powerful? That is such a beautiful statement of holding on. We are going to win this battle with Satan and this dispensation will come off triumph. I think that you can't get any higher thought than that. It's just fantastic. Now, this is a little bit of a speculation, but some time ago, Jack Welch called me up and he said, I've been researching in the IO archives and I found this newspaper report, this guy by the name of Aaron Harlan. And I go, okay, tell me about. He says, let me read it to you and see what you think. Now, Aaron Harlan lived in Lee county, over there in Keokuk, just across from Nauvoo. This is from the Aaron Harlan Letter to the editor. And it's Mr. A.W. harlan's recollections of Joseph Smith and the Mormon City of Nauvoo. And it's the Post published in Keokuk. It was in 1888. And here's what he wrote. One of the segments. I visited Joseph Smith at Nauvoo several different times, say about once in each six months. So he'd go over to Nauvoo to kind of check out Joseph Smith. I have ate with him at his table and played with his dog. And on noticing that the dog was getting old, I said to Mr. Smith, quote, Your dog is unusually fat. Yes, said Mr. Smith, he lives as I do and shall as long as we both live. And then added that when he was a prisoner in Missouri, that dog could not be separated from him. And for months when he slept, that dog always remained awake by his side. And then he gives a little postscript. The man that will reciprocate the fidelity of a dog cannot be altogether bad.
- [61:01]
Casey
So he's suggesting the dog was in the prison.
- [61:04]
Alex Baugh
That's what he's saying. And. And I think you maybe know I did this article. I said, jack, I'm going to run with this. I'm going to find out about it. And I think we can safely say that if you understand what type of dog he had, you'd understand why he wanted him there. Do you remember what kind of dog he was? Casey or Scott?
- [61:23]
Scott
Bigger dog?
- [61:24]
Casey
I remember his name was Major.
- [61:26]
Alex Baugh
Yeah, it was old natured. He was a mastiff, an English mastiff. This dog is huge and he's loyal. They sense danger. They are extremely loyal to their masters. And I can kind of see this, that maybe Emma brought that dog down and said, you know, maybe he could help you. And let's just see if they let you have it. Now he may have had to stay outside, maybe when it was cold they let him come in. But Emily's like I've told you, first week of February, she of course goes over to Quincy and stays with the Clevelands, John and Sarah Cleveland. And in one of the last letters to Joe from Joseph Smith, Emma, what does he ask about? He says, how's old Major? How's my dog? And I thinking maybe when Emma came down on that last visit, she said I better take the dog. So that dog could have been, if she came on that first part of December, just had that dog to kind of keep guard of Joseph a little bit and then she leaves the first part of February, that dog stayed with him for maybe upwards six weeks or so. Now again, that's your speculation. And when I get to the other side, I'm going to ask Joseph about that and say, hey, did old Major help you there?
- [62:40]
Scott
Livery jail stick with him through thick and thin. It makes me think of that old Harry Truman quote where he said if a man wants a friend in Washington, he should bring a dog. So I guess if a man wants a friend in Liberty, he should bring a dog. And that makes me like Joseph Smith a little bit more because I'm kind of a dog person myself.
- [62:57]
Alex Baugh
And Joseph said he hopes to have his horse in heaven and why not?
- [63:02]
Scott
He had a horse named Joe Duncan, didn't he? After the Governor of Missouri.
- [63:05]
Alex Baugh
Yeah, after the governor.
- [63:07]
Casey
Let's talk about the release of Sidney Rigdon real quick. What, what would you want to say about Sidney's release? Because sometimes that's, that's been a point of curiosity, if not confusion. Like is it true that is because he was sick, they let him go early? There's. Or is there more to the story than that?
- [63:22]
Alex Baugh
Well, Donovan is the one that helps us actually on this. You know how many files I got on Liberty Jail?
- [63:28]
Casey
We thought who's got the most files on Liberty Jail? Let's bring them on.
- [63:32]
Alex Baugh
So Rigdon was not well. In fact, when they brought Rigdon down from far west and put him in that small log home where they can find them, his daughter actually stayed with him. She was in that log house with him to take care of him a little bit. The interesting thing is I think they were a little bit worried about his health. Condition. And they petitioned to possibly have his case heard on what is called a writ of habeas corpus in Liberty. And the judge set the date for January 25th of 1839. So it went for a couple of days and then it went 25th, 26th, and then 28th, 29th it was before a judge by the name of Joel Turnham. Interestingly enough, Alexander Doniphan and Peter Hardeman Burnett wanted to represent the prisoners. Interestingly enough, Rigdon said, can I plead my, my case? Can I do it myself? Now again, any attorney would not want necessarily that to happen. But Rigdon did it in dramatic fashion. According to Donovan. They kind of brought him in on a bed and he's kind of laying down. And he said he gave one of the most eloquent defenses of his, of the people of the Latter Day Saints and the atrocities that they've experienced and brought people to tears. And because of that, he said it was one of the finest orations I've ever heard. Now, you know that in those days some of these hearings were more theatrical than producing evidence. You know, they would just. It was like an incredible show. Sure enough, this judge, Joel Turnham, released him. And so each of the prisoners also addressed the court, but he released Sidney Rigdon and that was on the 29th of January. And he could have left right then. I think they were a little worried about if he left, that they might come after him. And his son in law came down from Far west and picked him up. And I think they left under cover of darkness or something like that. And he remained in the jail till February 5, but he could have been released at any time. But they wanted to make sure he'd be safe if they did take him out of the jail and take him back to Far West. So after February 5, the prisoners are down to five. Until that time that the few prisoners who tried to help him escape were in for a few days. And then I should say there's Hyrum and others. Hyrum actually has seven letters from Liberty Jail. And in one of those he mentions a Howard Corwin was placed in the jail with him that last week or so of their time in the jail. So I mentioned this simply because Rigdon was released and others are sometimes placed in there with them. So I think sometimes we think they're just the only ones there or the Latter Day Saint prisoners. So kind of interesting that that would be the case. But I do have to say so grateful for the Joseph Smith papers and the opportunity to work on the Liberty Jail experience. And I think our listeners should know there are 12 letters that we have from Joseph during this period of time. I think almost every time in General Conference sections 121 or 122 are quoted. You watch next time. How many times in General Conference is 121? 122, not 123, not as much. But this is so in such powerful eloquence and ethereal thoughts and teachings that you just can't imagine this coming from someone who's not sincere and who's inspired, enlightened. I mean just the phraseology, the word choice and oh, it's just, you know, the ends of the earth shall inquire, if not fools shall have hinderage and all hell shall rage against. I mean, how can you come up with that if you're not inspired? I, I, it's just, it's powerful, powerful revelations.
- [67:38]
Scott
It's some of the most beautiful writing in any of the Doctrine Covenants and I'll say in any scripture, really, it's just beautiful stuff.
- [67:46]
Casey
It's interesting to see what comes out of Joseph Smith when he squeezed really hard with stress and pressure and that. Like when you, if you really want to know what kind of man he is on the inside, watch how he reacts when he's just squeezed so hard. This kind of beautiful scripture just effuses from him. It's just remarkable. It is incredibly remarkable.
- [68:05]
Alex Baugh
I think this is a turning point in Joseph's life. This whole experience changes him in a lot of ways. But one way I think is I think he was naturally courageous, but when he comes out of liberty jail, he's absolutely fearless. He knows God is with him, that he'll back him up and that he won't be taken before his time. Now he's more humble. There's no question. He's been brought down to the lowest depths and he's appreciative of his life and his family and the saints. I mean, this cost the church. Look at the people who died at least at Hans Mill. This was heart wrenching for him. He rises above all of that and he is absolutely fearless. It prepared him for the martyrdom. I really believe that he goes without fear in that sense that he, you know, I know what it is. I know what I've done. I'm, I'm finished. The keys are passed to the 12. My time is done. And he faces that with such bravery and confidence, if I could say, having wax confidence in the Lord. Confident in the Lord. So I just see this as kind of that transform, transformation of Joseph Smith. He's always been a mighty prophet, but that, that puts him way over on top.
- [69:19]
Casey
Well, and I wanted to just maybe ask you as a final question as we wrap this up about that, how has studying all of this, Alex, how's studying Joseph Smith, studying church history, studying the Missouri time period, how has all that strengthened your testimony of the Restoration? You know, some people say they study church history and it hurts their testimony. You don't seem like a guy that that's happened to. You seem like you went the other way. Like why, why is that or what do you want to say about, about that phenomenon for you?
- [69:44]
Alex Baugh
The more I read, the more I study, the more I try to understand, the more I believe and I believe more than ever in his divine calling and in the Restoration. There's so much to be learned and understood and that just is so. Electrifying isn't the right word. But I just find so much of the hand of God in the life of Joseph Smith. And that can be for him. It can be for me. My life experience is so much different than him, culturally, socially, everything. But we have the same gospel and the gospel can transform us and it transformed Joseph and it's transformed me.
- [70:22]
Casey
Thank you so much.
- [70:24]
Alex Baugh
Wow.
- [70:24]
Scott
And thank you for all your research and everything you've done. You're just a gentleman and a scholar. So we're so grateful because again, what Lamar Barrett did for you, you did for me. You took me to Missouri and showed me around and I'm never going to reach the heights you've reached, but you've given me something to shoot for. So thank you so much for all you've done, Alex.
- [70:44]
Alex Baugh
Well, thank you. This has been a wonderful hour for me to converse with the things that matter most in our lives, and that's the gospel and how we apply it and how what we learn from it and how we can be better. So thank you for your many, many episodes that have help so many people, myself included.
- [71:04]
Casey
Well, thank you, Alex. Really appreciate you having you on today. If our listeners wanted to go get more of your research, like where would they go to get that?
- [71:11]
Alex Baugh
I list my CV on BYU religion faculty and there's some, you know, like Joseph Smith's dog, you can pull that up and know where to look and that's probably not going to save you, but it's sure fun to read about. Maybe there's any number of places. I hope the Lord be willing that I can get a good one volume about the Liberty Jail and the experience and kind of pull that all together. And then if we can maybe put together a book on. I've kind of titled it already. Just call it Quest for Zion, the History of the Latter Day saints in Missouri, 1831-39.
- [71:49]
Scott
Let me mention to our audience, you already have some really good books out there. There's a book on Hans Mill that History of the Saints published. And there's a book called the Mormon wars that you wrote a few chapters in. And then there's your thesis, which is also available to the public as well. I highly recommend all these, if you're interested in Latter Day Saints and their history in Missouri, especially some of this, which is some of the most moving history in our story.
- [72:14]
Alex Baugh
Thank you, Casey. Thank you, Scott. Sam.