Church History Matters – Episode 172: D&C 129–131 CFM – “Spiritual Beings Are More Than You Think” (E46, November 10-15)

Podcast: Church History Matters
Hosts: Scott and Casey (Scripture Central)
Date: November 4, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Scott and Casey embark on a deep-dive into Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) sections 129–131, a sequence of revelations considered among the most distinctive, beautiful, and sometimes controversial in Latter-day Saint thought. Their conversation explores the radical teachings of Joseph Smith—particularly about the nature of angels, spiritual beings, heavenly sociality, time, and the nature of God—unpacking how these doctrines shaped the unique Latter-day Saint cosmology, temple worship, and understanding of mortal and eternal progression. Along the way, they draw connections to key historical contexts, address controversies, and surface rich thematic insights with affection, frankness, and humor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage for D&C 129–132

• High Stakes, Radical Teachings: These sections capture the "highest peak" of Joseph Smith’s teachings, from his final years in Nauvoo, where his evolving cosmology comes into sharpest focus.
• Host Tone: The hosts, clearly passionate, warn listeners: “Fasten your seat belts because we recognize that it might be a bumpy ride for some people as we go through these revelations.” (Casey, 01:14)

2. D&C 129: The Nature of Angels and Spiritual Beings

Historical Context

• Joseph’s instructions in D&C 129 were first given to Parley P. Pratt (Feb 9, 1843), paralleling earlier teachings to the Twelve in 1839. The content connects these teachings to growing temple theology and endowment ordinances.
• Temple Connection: “If you’re looking at this as a temple text, it becomes a little bit more serious right off the bat... they present things and then they ask you to kind of ponder deeply what the deeper meaning is.” (Casey, 04:48)

Content Breakdown

• Two Kinds of Beings in Heaven:
  • Angels: Defined as “resurrected personages having bodies of flesh and bones. For instance, Jesus said, ‘Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.’”
  • Spirits of Just Men Made Perfect: Not yet resurrected, but “inherit the same glory.”
• Radical Ontology: Angels and humans are not different species—“Heavenly beings are people.” (Scott, 00:00)
• Unique LDS Teaching: Joseph’s explicit identification of angels as “resurrected personages” diverges sharply from other Christian traditions. “That right off the bat is something that we have just become so used to that we don’t think about how radical it was at the time.” (Casey, 09:03)

Detecting True and False Messengers (The "Handshake Test")

• Procedure:
  1. Resurrected angels: You will feel their hand.
  2. Spirits of just men: Will appear in their glory but not move; “it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive.” (Casey, 13:32)
  3. Devils masquerading: Will offer their hand, “but you will not feel anything.”
• Deeper Meaning: The point is not to reveal a “simple trick” that outsmarts Satan, but to teach that all spiritual beings are constrained by divine law. “It’s a commentary on the nature of law and how men, angels and devils are still subject to that law.” (Casey, 18:41)
• Implication for Dualism: Section 129 asserts that good is the dominant, default reality of the universe, relegating evil to the status of aberration—a major refutation of theological dualism. “If you have the knowledge of God, you are greater than Satan too.” (Casey, 23:14)
• Setting the Cosmological Stage: Humans, angels, and God are “the same kind of being, just in different phases of development.” (Casey, 26:22)

Memorable Quotes

• “An acorn doesn’t seem like an oak tree... but it’s the same type of being, and one can become the other, given the right conditions.” (Casey, 27:29)

Timestamps

• Context & Temple Connection: 02:50–05:55
• Angels Defined: 07:01–11:36
• “Handshake Test” Discussion: 13:21–18:41
• Dualism & Power Dynamics: 21:16–25:15
• Cosmological Implications: 25:15–27:48

3. D&C 130: Q&A With Joseph Smith—Heaven, Sociality, and the Divine Nature

Historical Context (31:12–35:19)

• April 1–2, 1843: Joseph in Ramos, Illinois; context is a correction of a sermon by Orson Hyde.
• The section is a composite of notes across three settings—“What it would be like to spend the day with Joseph Smith.”

Key Content Themes

A. Heaven’s "Sociality" (Verses 1–3, 35:35–41:35)

• Eternal relationships: “That same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory.” (Section 130:2)
• Contradicting popular conceptions of a static, immaterial afterlife—Joseph preaches a social, vibrant, material universe with families, relationships, and joy.
• “If it’s not those things, is it heaven?” (Casey, 43:02)
• Memorable: “What is not heaven is less real.” (Casey citing non-LDS author, 37:59)

B. Nature of God – Rejecting “Dwelling in Hearts” Doctrine (44:07–45:40)

• Joseph corrects Orson Hyde: “It is an old sectarian notion... and is false.” God and Christ are embodied; only the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit.

C. Angels, Time, and Revelation (49:05–54:33)

• Angels “reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire... all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, continually before the Lord.” (49:05)
• The sanctified earth itself will be a great Urim and Thummim; each celestial person gets a personal “white stone” Urim and Thummim (see Revelation 2:17).

D. Second Coming and Prophecy (54:33–63:59)

• Joseph references Civil War prophecy and responsible eschatology: “no man knoweth [the hour]... and all that say so are false teachers.” (60:22)
• Memorable: “If you want to see what Joseph Smith looks like when he’s prophesying with confidence, look at verse 12 and 13. I prophesy in the name of the Lord...” (61:21)

E. Law, Intelligence, and the Nature of the Godhead (63:59–75:24)

• The principle that “whatever principle of intelligence we attain to in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.” (Section 130:18)
• “There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven... upon which all blessings are predicated.” (Section 130:20–21)
• Radical teaching: “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s. The Son also.” (Section 130:22); Holy Ghost is a “personage of spirit.”

Controversy: Editing of Verse 22 (78:57–87:44)

• Original wording on the Holy Ghost’s ability to “dwell in us” was changed in 1854, a decision reaffirmed in the 1981 scripture edition. The hosts discuss Ron Bartholomew’s BYU Studies article, which explores whether this reflects a theological adjustment or harmonization with broader scriptural themes.

Memorable Quotes

• “Time is not our natural element. We were made for eternity.” (Scott, 49:05)
• “Is it happy, is it comfortable, are you with the people that matter the most to you? Because if it’s not those things, is it heaven?” (Casey, 43:02)
• “God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. What are the implications of that? That’s pretty radical.” (Scott, 00:06 & 70:41)

Timestamps

• Sociality/Heaven: 35:35–44:07
• God’s Embodiment: 44:07–45:40; 70:41–75:24
• Angels, Time, and Revelation: 49:05–54:33
• Second Coming: 54:33–63:59
• Law & Intelligence: 63:59–70:41
• Holy Ghost Controversy: 78:57–87:44

4. D&C 131: Eternal Marriage, Knowledge, & Material Spirit

Format & Context (91:58–92:55)

• Three different teachings, originally William Clayton’s notes from May 16–17, 1843.

A. Verses 1–4: Eternal Marriage and Degrees of Heaven (92:55–101:37)

• Celestial marriage is necessary to attain the “highest” degree of heaven; if not, “he cannot have an increase.”
• Discussion over whether there are “three degrees within the celestial kingdom” or if this phrase mirrors section 76’s three overall degrees. The hosts explain both interpretations, noting the current church teaching sees the celestial kingdom as tripartite.
• Anecdote: Joseph returns four months later and personally seals Benjamin and Melissa Johnson following this doctrine’s instruction.

B. Verses 5–6: The “More Sure Word of Prophecy” (105:06–114:16)

• Reference to “making your calling and election sure” in 2 Peter 1.
• Tied to the second anointing ordinance in Nauvoo (now rare/sacred). Judgment day, in these circumstances, is “advanced” into mortal life.
• Quote: “Those who know don’t tell, and those who tell don’t know.” (Casey, 113:20 quoting Joseph Fielding McConkie)
• Practice and Emphasis: Why is this rarely taught today? The hosts point to its sacredness and non-essential nature for salvation; current focus remains on saving ordinances for the dead and living.

C. Verses 7–8: Spirit as Material Substance (115:17–121:25)

• Joseph, after hearing a Methodist minister discuss the soul’s immaterial nature, teaches: “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes.”
• Implication: Joseph’s “radically material cosmology” extends even to the spirit world.

Memorable Quotes

• “The universe is organized matter. Right. And instead of trying to imagine something that is beyond that... No, let’s just work within the existing framework that we have and say there’s a part of you that’s made of spirit, but it still consists of matter.” (Casey, 121:31)
• “Section 130, 131... these are all really precious nuggets. And they do continue to help build out the Latter-day Saint cosmology.” (Scott, 123:09)
• “Things are getting more complex and that’s not bad. That things are getting more beautiful. That the underlying theology… is coming together in these final precious months of Joseph Smith’s life.” (Casey, 123:09)

Timestamps

• Marriage & Degrees: 92:55–101:37
• Calling & Election: 105:06–114:16
• Materiality of Spirit: 115:17–121:25

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “Heavenly beings are people.” — Scott (00:00)
• “It is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive.” — Casey (13:32)
• “Evil is not the way things are supposed to work. Dualism is a false tenet... Good is the overwhelming substance of the universe.” — Casey (23:14)
• “A heaven that’s meaningful, a meaningful eternal home, which actually is this earth sanctified, with the same sociality—except did you notice the exception? It will be coupled with eternal glory.” — Scott (36:23)
• “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s. The Son also. But the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit.” — Scott (70:41)
• “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes.” — Joseph Smith (Casey quoting Clayton’s journal, 120:04)

Sectional Timestamps

• D&C 129 Context & Content: 00:27–13:21
• Philosophical Implications (Law, Dualism): 13:21–25:15
• Cosmology & Eternal Sociality: 26:14–45:40
• Time, Angels, Revelation: 49:05–54:33
• Eschatology & Prophecy: 54:33–63:59
• Law, Intelligence, God’s Nature: 63:59–75:24
• Holy Ghost Controversy: 78:57–87:44
• D&C 131—Marriage & Degrees: 92:55–101:37
• More Sure Word of Prophecy: 105:06–114:16
• Materiality of Spirit: 115:17–121:25

Flow & Tone

• Language and Tone: Friendly, inquisitive, at times playful and always respectful—even when wading into controversy. Scott and Casey blend academic rigor with approachability, often referencing “field trips,” “question boxes,” and funny personal anecdotes to make technical subjects accessible and engaging.
• Structure: Systematic progression through section context, content, controversy, and consequences (the “Four C’s”), pausing to dig deep wherever needed.

Conclusion and Looking Ahead

The episode brings to light just how distinctive Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo-era theological contributions are—from the materiality of spirit and embodied God, to the promise of eternal relationships and progression through law. Scott and Casey end by teasing a dedicated follow-up on D&C 132 (plural marriage), promising yet more “game-changing revelations.”

For further reflection/reading:

• Ron Bartholomew, “The Textual Development of D&C 130:22 and the Embodiment of the Holy Ghost” (BYU Studies).
• Earlier podcast episode on the second anointing/calling and election.

Stay tuned for a deep-dive into D&C 132 in the next episode!