177 - D&C 136 CFM - Latter-day Exodus & How God Forged Us Into A New People - E48B November 24-30

Summary

Church History Matters – Episode 177

D&C 136 CFM - Latter-day Exodus & How God Forged Us Into a New People
November 19, 2025
Hosts: Scott and Casey, Scripture Central

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Doctrine and Covenants Section 136—Brigham Young’s only canonized revelation—set against the backdrop of the Saints’ exodus from Nauvoo and the forging of a new Latter-day Saint identity in the crucible of Winter Quarters. Scott and Casey discuss the urgent context, leadership controversies, the structure and impact of the “Word and Will of the Lord,” and the lasting spiritual legacy of the Latter-day Exodus, drawing comparisons to the biblical Israelites and reflecting on how hardship forged a sacred people.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

The Leadership Transition: From Joseph to Brigham (00:00–03:00)

• Brigham Young as a Modern Moses:
  “Brigham Young will be called a modern day Moses because of what's about to happen here. And the Lord is framing it here. No accident.” — Scott (00:03)
• The Saints’ exodus after the martyrdom of Joseph Smith marks a pivotal, crisis-ridden transition, not just for leadership, but for collective Latter-day Saint identity.

Context of Section 136: Winter Quarters & the Brink of Collapse (02:45–10:44)

• A Time of Crisis, Not of Confidence:
  Casey dispels the “mythologizing” of the westward trek, emphasizing confusion, disarray, and immense suffering at Winter Quarters on the Missouri River (Nebraska/Iowa border):
  “They're in Indian territory...squalid is a word that you could use. There's death and disease...this is maybe the low point of the trek, where they're sort of in crisis.” — Casey (02:45)
• Fragile relations with Native Americans, loss of manpower to the Mormon Battalion, dire mortality (1 in 12 died), and shaken confidence in Brigham Young’s leadership.
  • Notable historical voices illustrate misery:
    • Louisa Barnes Pratt: “The shaking ague fastened deathless fangs upon me… I shook till it appeared my very bones were pulverized...”
    • Thomas L. Kane: “Openly sobbed like a child” witnessing conditions.
    • Wilford Woodruff: “...never seen the Latter Day Saints...passing through greater tribulations or wearing out faster...”
• External and internal opposition (e.g., James Strang, George Miller) threatened to fracture the Saints.

Milestone Revelation:

On January 14, 1847, Brigham Young receives “the word and will of the Lord concerning the camp of Israel,” offering divine guidance and organizing principles amidst existential uncertainty.

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The Content and Structure of Section 136 (10:44–27:24)

Temple Covenants as the Spiritual Backbone (10:44–16:45)

• The exodus’ success is rooted in temple covenants made at Nauvoo, especially the law of consecration—binding the Saints together and fueling their commitment to help even the weakest among them.
  • Quote:
    "If it had not been for the faith and knowledge that was bestowed upon us in that temple, the trip across the Great Plains would have been like one taking a leap in the dark." — Sarah P. Rich, via Scott (11:40)
• Brigham Young’s call—“to take all the Saints with us to the extent of our ability”—reflects these covenants.
• Modern Applications:
  The precedent set for mutual rescue (e.g., Martin & Willie Handcart Companies) and ongoing humanitarian obligations.

Organization: Lessons in Collective Action (16:45–22:06)

• The Lord’s instructions to organize into companies, appoint captains, and proportion property and responsibility equally reflect ancient Israelite and Zion’s Camp models.
• Direct quote from Brigham Young:
  "Unless this people are more united in spirit and cease to pray against counsel, it will bring me down to my grave..." — Brigham Young, journal, via Casey (18:25)
• The revelation transforms migration into a sacred, unifying ordeal—how "the Lord is using [it] to kind of shape them into a people." — Casey (20:19)

Practical and Spiritual Instructions (22:06–33:09)

• Specific leaders and logistics are delineated. The Lord explicitly frames the exodus as a modern Israelite journey:
  "I am he who led the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, and my arm is stretched out in the last days to save my people Israel." — Reading, Scott (23:21)
• The Lord admonishes against contention, urges stewardship, and offers practical ethical guidance.
• Stories of how these rules marked the Saints as an unusually organized, pious people.
• Brigham’s stern warning:
  "If you don't open your heart so that the spirit of God can enter your hearts and teach you the right way, I know that you are a ruined people and will be destroyed." — Brigham Young, via Scott (25:38)
• The legendary “This is the place” declaration is discussed—what was (and wasn't) recorded—bringing nuance to LDS pioneer folklore.

Spiritual Joy Amid Hardship (28:01–33:09)

• Music, Merriment, & Resilience:
  The Lord encourages singing and dancing even amid affliction—a striking contrast with some 19th-century American pieties and a source of strength for the Saints.
• Brigham Young’s “adoption” sealings are explored—how familial bonds replaced blood ties in this new people.

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The Martyrdom, Divine Judgment, and the Making of a People (33:09–41:17)

• Prophetic Commentary on Joseph’s Death:
  The revelation asserts that Joseph “must seal his testimony with his blood,” for the sake of both honor and condemnation of the wicked.
• Larger Historical Reckonings:
  The possible link between national rejection of the Saints/killing of Joseph Smith and later calamities (e.g., the US Civil War) is debated:
  • “I think the evidence is overwhelming that Thomas Ford was not just stupid but in on it…” — Scott (35:14)
• The exodus is reframed as not solely tragedy and suffering—many companies experienced relatively few deaths, and the trek became a source of bonding and sacred narrative.

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Succession Crisis & Authority: Controversy and Continuity (41:17–47:07)

• The Succession Crisis Recapped:
  Multiple claimants (Brigham Young, Sidney Rigdon, James Strang), but Brigham’s leadership is rooted in both inspiration ("over 150 accounts of people saying Brigham Young was transfigured…”) and practicality—he and the Twelve were the most credible, seasoned leaders (42:05–43:30).
• Evolution of Succession:
  Later transitions were often subject to discussion and even debate, but by Lorenzo Snow’s time, the succession process became well-established.
• The LDS process contrasted with Community of Christ’s ongoing revelation and succession.

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The Challenge of Post-Joseph Revelations (47:07–56:59)

• Why So Few Canonized Revelations from Later Prophets?
  • Dialogic ("thus saith the Lord") revelations become rare after Joseph. Brigham Young’s 1847 and 1874 revelations discussed, as well as John Taylor’s dialogic revelations—which were not canonized.
  • "Brothers and sisters, there was only one Joseph Smith. He was a very unique prophet, called for a second specific time and to do a specific thing." — Scott (52:16)
• Adjusting Expectations:
  Later prophets are exponents and echoers of Joseph Smith’s foundational work.
  • “You step down appreciably…” — Elder Bruce R. McConkie, via Scott (53:34)
• Modern Prophetic Revelation:
  Insights continue (e.g., Joseph F. Smith’s vision, Official Declarations), but the style and frequency of canonical revelations changes.
  • Gordon B. Hinckley: “I get revelation. I get it in a different way than Joseph Smith did...It’s a still, small voice.” — via Casey (55:37)
• Affirmation: The church remains led by revelation, though the mechanisms vary.

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Consequences & Legacy of Section 136 (57:24–60:37)

• Winter Quarters as Latter-day Saint Valley Forge:
  “What happened at Winter Quarters does the same thing as Valley Forge. They emerge...more united, more secure...Section 136 gives them renewed strength.” — Casey (57:45)
  • It proved pivotal, organizing the Saints not only physically but spiritually, providing identity and purpose that have echoed across generations.
• Ritual and Memory:
  The trek becomes sacred history—still reenacted today—marking the Saints not just as a church but as a people forged by shared trial and consecration.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Suffering & Sanctification:
  “The suffering, the sacrifice, and I'll say the sanctification, lingers forever in their collective memory. And these sufferings do for us what the Exodus did for the ancient Israelites. They forge us into a people.” — Casey (00:22, 57:59)

• On Leadership Succession:
  “There's over 150 accounts of people saying Brigham Young was transfigured or they received some sort of confirmation, but it was also one part practicality. Like, he was just the guy.” — Casey (42:29)

• On Modern Prophecy:
  “Brothers and sisters, there was only one Joseph Smith...you step down appreciably and you get to Brigham Young and those who succeed him.” — Scott (52:16)

• On Shared Heritage:
  "It's more intense to be a Latter Day Saint...it's almost your ethnic identity. And these sufferings do for us what the Exodus did for the ancient Israelites." — Casey (58:56)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00–03:00 — Brigham Young’s leadership and the Exodus as identity-forging
• 02:45–10:44 — Winter Quarters crisis, mortality, and the need for divine direction
• 10:44–16:45 — Temple covenants: spiritual bedrock of the trek
• 16:45–22:06 — Principles of organization, equity, and mutual aid
• 22:06–33:09 — Modern Israel on a modern Exodus; ethics, music, and resilience
• 33:09–41:17 — The martyrdom, divine justice, and forging a sacred narrative
• 41:17–47:07 — Succession crisis and institutional continuity
• 47:07–56:59 — Prophetic revelation after Joseph Smith: rarity and rationale
• 57:24–60:37 — Consequences: Winter Quarters as Valley Forge, enduring legacy

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Final Thoughts & Tone

Scott and Casey’s conversation, full of candid reflection and occasional humor, unpacks a complex period marked by suffering but also resilience, innovation, and spiritual depth. They invite listeners to see themselves in the ongoing narrative—whether reenacting the trek, remembering ancestors, or grappling with contemporary questions of revelation and leadership. Section 136 stands as a paradigm of crisis met by revelation, laying the groundwork for Latter-day Saint faith and identity for generations.

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Next episode: Section 138—“one of my favorite revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. It's just so powerful.”
—Casey (60:37)

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Transcript

[Casey]

I don't know if there's anybody else that could have done what Brigham Young did.

[Scott]

Brigham Young will be called a modern day Moses because of what's about to happen here. And the Lord is framing it here. No accident.

[Casey]

It's a story where an Exodus is used to forge a people. An important thing for us to keep in remembrance because we all benefited from what they did.

[Scott]

A lot of us can relate to this, right? It's part of our heritage.

[Casey]

The suffering, the sacrifice, and I'll say the sanctification, the lingers forever in their collective memory. And these sufferings do for us what the Exodus did for the ancient Israelites. They forge us into a people.

[Scott]

If you don't open your heart so that the Spirit of God can enter your hearts and teach you the right way, you are a ruined people and will be destroyed.

[Casey]

Oh, hello again, Scott.

[Scott]

Hi, Casey. Welcome back.

[Casey]

We're hitting nothing but milestones lately, but this is another milestone. First revelation in the Doctrine and Covenants that is not received by Joseph Smith. This one is a Brigham Young Revelation, Section 136, the Word and will of the Lord to the camp of Israel.

[Scott]

So that sounds like they're not in Nauvoo anymore. This is not even in the United States, is it?

[Casey]

They're not even in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. They are in Indian territory. What is current day Nebraska and Iowa. They're on the border of those two. On the banks of the Mississippi river or sorry, banks of the Missouri River.

[Scott]

So if you caught us in our last episode, we just Talked about Section 135, which was the martyrdom of the prophet Joseph Smith. Turn the page. And suddenly the saints are outside the United States. They're in a place called winter quarters. They call it that. Lots of stuff has happened between those two points. We've had a succession crisis in there where after the prophet was martyred, lots of questions about who now should lead the church. Maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later in this episode. Hastening to build the temple, to get the temple finished. It was not finished when Joseph was martyred. They hastened to do so. And once they get the bare minimum amount of ordina is done, everybody through the can like it's time to move. It's time to. It's time to get out of there. Because Casey, the enemies of church felt like at first, if you, if Joseph Smith was dead, then the church would just disperse. But over time they realized that was not going to happen. Right. And so then the persecution starts being laid on thick again. And it becomes pretty obvious that we've got to leave Nauvoo if we ever want to. To be, you know, secure and not have mob attacks. So, anyway, there's a lot that's going on between section 135 and 136. Casey, help us, like, drop us into kind of the more immediate context to. To this revelation, like, what happens from there.

[Casey]

There's been a fair amount of mythologizing about the trek west. Like, we just imagine them, like, on the ball, knowing what they're doing. Brigham Young is large and in charge. Brigham Young is remarkable. No toil nor labor, fear. But this is sort of a crisis for the church, too. Like, there's some stuff going on here, and you could argue that this is maybe the low point of the trek, where they're sort of in crisis. They're sort of figuring out what to do. And thankfully, a revelation comes to Brigham Young that gives them direction, guidance, even encouragement from the Lord. So here's the context. They've made it all the way across Iowa, which, just to put it in context, it take long for them to cross Iowa, as it's going to take the next year to go from Nebraska to Utah. So it happens in the spring. It's extremely wet, it's extremely muddy, and it is also extremely disorganized. So they're struggling. They barely make it to the Missouri river, where they set up their settlement, which they're going to call winter quarters, which is sort of just a temporary base of operations. While they're still searching for a new permanent home for church headquarters, several thousand saints are going to gather there. They're also strung out and sett across Iowa, and they really don't have a firm idea of where they're going to end up, what their destination was going to be to make it worse. Conditions are bad. Squalid is a word that you could use. There's death and disease. But this is also sort of this incredible moment where this new leadership sort of comes into its own, where they rise to meet the crisis. From the beginning, Brigham Young and the other leaders of the church knew that the banks of the Missouri were not the ideal place to spend the winter. In fact, they wanted to keep until they got to grand island, which is this big island that had more and better and more defensible places for them to stay. And then they even had ambitions in 1846 to see if they could send a group all the way to the Rocky Mountains, because that's generally where they're aiming, is to go to the Great Basin, the Rocky Mountains, the Inner Mountain west, as we'd call it today. But unfortunately, all this is sort of blown out of the water when they can't make it across Iowa fast enough. And part of the delay is the weather. Part of the delay is disorganization. Part of the delay is Nauvoo. Nauvoo gets attacked, and Brigham Young has to send back relief efforts to help those that are thrown out of Nauvoo and the so called Battle of Nauvoo. And with all this, they're just exhausted when they kind of struggle onto the banks of the Missouri river near what we would call today Florence, Nebraska. In fact, you can go there. This is where the Winter quarters Temple is and the Mormon Trail center, which that's the name. Great, great historic site for you to visit if you ever get the chance to.

[Scott]

Quite a somber cemetery there as well, with all those who passed away during this winter.

[Casey]

Yeah, the cemetery is right next to the temple and right across the street from the Trail Center. And so it's worth your time. It really is a beautiful place to kind of go and get a feel for what the trek meant and how bad it was. But I'm missing a couple details here, too. So they're in Indian territory, and they have kind of a fragile relations with the Native Americans. They're in a swampy environment. Winter sets in, but they still are trying to set up a plan. So they plot out winter quarters. They organize 22 wards with bishops appointed to look after the poor and the needy. And then their manpower is further strained when the Mormon Battalion is recruited. And the Mormon Battalion is something that they set up because they need money basically to pay for the trek west. So sometimes it's depicted, like I remember in the Manti Pageant, that, like a soldier rides into the camp and says, we need men to fight of the Mexican War. And that's not really how it worked. We approached the government and basically said we'd be willing to recruit men to serve in the Mexican War. We need the money basically to help pay for the poor that are coming there. And so that further drains, and it mentions in the Revelation those that have gone into the army as you speak now. In addition, conditions in winter quarters are pretty rough. For instance, Louisa Barnes Pratt, she said this. The shaking ague fastened deathless fangs upon me, and I shook till it appeared my very bones were pulverized. I wept, I prayed, I besought the Lord to have mercy upon me. And Thomas L. Kane, who's kind of a Philanthropist that is helping the Saints. He's not a Latter Day Saint. He comes into winter quarters and sees what the Saints are going through. And he said that he broke down and openly sobbed like a child. Those are his words when he saw the terrible conditions in the camp. Another person, Wilford Woodruff, recorded in his journal, I have never seen the Latter Day Saints in any situation where they seem to be passing through greater tribulations or wearing out faster than at the present time when he's at winter quarters. In fact, it's estimated that about 723 deaths occurred out of a population of 8,750 saints, or a mortality rate of 1 in 12. And last few years, with COVID and everything, we've become familiar with mortality rates. This is way higher than Covid. Like, it's not even close in comparison.

[Scott]

Led some people to question the judgment and leadership of Brigham Young, didn't it? And the quorum of the 12.

[Casey]

Yeah. So that's the other problem is you have people like James Strang who are coming along and saying Brigham Young wasn't supposed to lead the church. You have defectors from within the camps. The most notable one is George Miller, who was one of the bishops of the church, who just decides that he's going to leave. He opposes the route of the Exodus. He doesn't want to go west. He doesn't like how the camps are managed, and then he just takes off. So it's rough. It's maybe the low point of Brigham Young's leadership, where, remember, he's only been in as leader for two years at this point, and many people are still questioning if he's the right person. So Brigham Young needs guidance. And on January 14, 1847, he receives this revelation, which he titles, the word and will of the Lord concerning the camp of Israel. And the revelation deals with some of the most prominent questions that the Saints are asking, including, we talked about this. It talks about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, says it was needful for him to seal his testimony with his blood. The Lord specified that the westward trek was to take place under the direction of mine apostles. So clarifies leadership, which left no doubt who was supposed to be leading. And the Lord also declares, my people must be tried in all things, and that they must covenant and promise to keep all the commandments of the Lord. And so when the revelation is received, to many people, it's sort of like water in the desert, like Hosea Stout recorded in his journal. The revelation was to me, a source of much joy and gratification. He continued, this will put to silence the wild bickering and suggestions of those who are ever in the way in opposing the proper council. They will now have to come to this standard or come out in open rebellion to the will of the Lord. Now again, George Miller and other opponents of Brigham Young do disparage the revelation, but most of the saints heed its counsel and looked forward to getting organized in the spring of 1847 and then going west, traveling west. So this is again given in a moment of crisis. Some people winter quarters, the Valley Forge of the Restoration. And it points in an important direction. Now, just a source note. This is added to the Doctrine and covenants in 1876 by Orson Pratt under the direction of Brigham Young. So yeah, it makes sense that this is added during that time too, because they want to sort of in the Doctrine and Covenants, show prophetic continuity from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young. But also, there's just some valuable and good counsel here. It's a good snapshot of where the saints were, but also contains some valuable principles that are applicable under any circumstances.

[Scott]

Awesome. Well done. Okay, well, let's get into the revelation itself. Our second c. The content, Verse one the word and will of the Lord concerning the camp of Israel in their journeyings to the west. Let all the people of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and those who journey with them be organized into companies with a covenant and promise to keep all the commandments and statutes of the Lord our God. Let the companies be organized with captains of hundreds, captains of fifties, and captains of tens, with a president and his two counselors at their head, under the direction of the twelve apostles. And this shall be our covenant that we will walk in all the ordinances of the Lord. I think these verses reflect two major events that occurred early in the exodus of the Saints to the western regions of North America. Here first is Even as the saints prepared to leave their homes in Nauvoo, they completed work on the Nauvoo Temple, right? And Brigham Young and other church leaders who had already received their temple ordinances had rushed to provide temple blessings to all the saints who desired them. They were working against the deadline. They knew the temple of Nauvoo would have to be abandoned when they left the area by February 1846. By the way, when the first saints began to leave Nauvoo, more than than 6,000 of their number had received their blessings in the temple, which is awesome. Their sacred temple covenants now are going to play a role of sustaining the saints in the very difficult years of the church as they search for a new home. Like, we like to tell the story of Sarah P. Rich, who later said, if it had not been for the faith and knowledge that was bestowed upon us in that temple, the trip across the Great Plains would have been like one taking a leap in the dark. And so this. This covenant language, right, Verse four, we will walk in the covenant in all the ordinances of the Lord.

[Casey]

I'm going to insert myself for just a second here. Your wife is a descendant of Sarah P. Rich, right?

[Scott]

She is.

[Casey]

You told me this on a trip once. In fact, she is named after Sarah P. Rich, so.

[Scott]

Sarah P. That's right. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Casey]

This is where the Woodwards intersect with church history. Sarah.

[Scott]

Now, she might jump on and say, well, not by blood, because Charles C. Rich, you know, it's through that line. And then there was one of Charles C. Rich's descendants, adopted her dad into the family. And so it's not by blood, but I'm going to go ahead and say, definitely she is. She's a descendant. She's a descendant, yeah, she's family. But this covenant language, this, you know, some called it the fire in their bones that burned within them as they crossed the plains, right? It's these covenants that they had made in the Nauvoo Temple. So I hope we read that. We hear that language in verse four, right? This shall be our covenant. We will walk in all the ordinances of the Lord and ordinances back in that time. We're talking about both rituals and the laws of the Lord that they had covenanted to obey in the Nauvoo Temple. So you have that. Those overtones are playing out in these first four verses. And among those covenants is the law of consecration. And that's going to come into play, too. Like the commitment to live, this law became both a vital part of the trek west and a large part of its success, you could say. Even while administering the temple ordinances, Brigham Young worked to prepare the Saints for the sacrifices that would be necessary for crossing the plains. Like in a general conference held in Nauvoo, October 6, 1845, he had the Saints make a covenant to, quote, take all the saints with us to the extent of our ability. That is our influence and our property to the extent we can afford it, to the extent we can consecrate of our stuff. We're going to bring everyone with us that we possibly can. Right? And this covenant doesn't just affect the Saints in Nauvoo but binds the saints together in the ensuing decades as they help converts from all over the world actually gather to the new home of the church in the Rocky Mountains. So temple overtones here, covenant language, and certainly fueled by those promises that they had made. This is. This is going to be a key part of making the remainder of this trek. And the principle of living the ordinances of the gospel by assisting others in the journey, I think is illustrated in a pretty cool way in 1856, when word reaches Salt Lake City that this group famously in the church now called the Martin and Willie handcart companies, were trapped on the high plains of Wyoming. With deadly winter weather closing in on them, Brigham Young arose in general conference and called for volunteers to go rescue the stranded companies. He said to the Saints, I will tell you all that your faith, religion, and professions of religion will never save one soul of you in the celestial kingdom of our God unless you carry out just such principles as I am now teaching you. Go and bring in those people now on the plains and attend strictly to those things which we call temporal or temporal duties. Otherwise your faith will be in vain. The preaching you have heard will be in vain to you, and you will sink to hell unless you attend to the things we tell you. Maybe some hyperbole there, but this idea of, like, man, this should motivate us to action. The covenants we've made, and there are people out there that need us right now. Let's go get them. Let's stop talking religion and let's go live it. So, so cool. So lots of stories like that from the trek west, both this original trek west and those who will come later in handcarts. But temple covenants bind the Saints together in commitment at this point to find their new home. And they bound the Saints to rescue suffering handcart companies in 1856. And we could say today that the same covenants bind Latter Day Saints to consecrate their gifts, to rescue their brothers and sisters in other ways.

[Casey]

Yeah, we sometimes downplay the role of the Nauvoo Temple. Like they just barely dedicated it, then they took off. But they did get everybody through the Nauvoo Temple before they had West. And that covenant of consecration seems to be what they're just directly referencing back to the ordinances that Brigham Young mentions in the Revelation. So, okay, picking it up in verse five. This is sort of the organizational portion. It says this. Let each company provide themselves with all teams, wagons, provisions, clothing, and other necessaries for the journey that they can when the companies are organized. Let them go with their might to prepare for those who are to tarry. So you're thinking about the next guy coming down the road, not just going as fast as you can. He says, let each company with their captains and presidents decide how many can go next spring. Then choose out a sufficient number of able bodied and expert men to take team seeds and farming utensils to go as pioneers to prepare for putting in spring crops. And then this is probably a direct invocation of the Law of Consecration, Verse 8. Let each company bear an equal proportion according to the dividend of their property. In taking the poor, the widows, the fatherless and the families of those that have gone into the army, that the cries of the widow and fatherless come not up into the ears of the Lord against this people. Let each company prepare houses and fields for raising grain for those who are to remain behind this season. And this is the will of the Lord concerning this people. Let every man use all his influence and property to remove this people to the place where the Lord shall locate a stake of Zion. And if you do this with a pure heart, in all faithfulness ye shall be blessed. You shall be blessed in your flocks, in your herds, in your fields, in your houses and in your families. So let's contextualize this a little bit. So the saints of our made this trek across Iowa. And the first phase of the Exodus kind of creates a steep learning curve for the saints as they sort of break themselves in on the trail as they learn what it's like to go down the trail. The main body of the camp of Israel took 131 days to cover the 300 miles of Iowa that make up the first part of the Exodus. By contrast, a year later, the Vanguard company, which admittedly is smaller and more agile, but it takes them 111 days to cover 1,050 miles from winter quarters to the Salt Lake Valley. Now again, they might have had better conditions too. Unusually wet weather in Iowa. A lack of preparation and general disorganization led to discouragement among the leaders of the church. In fact, one journal entry from Brigham Young during this period captures sort of his feelings the burden that he's carrying. He wrote, unless this people are more united in spirit and cease to pray against counsel, it will bring me down to my grave. I am reduced in flesh so that my coat would scarcely meet around me last winter. Now lapse over 12 inches. I'm losing weight. He's saying, here it is with much ado that I can keep from Lying down and sleeping to wait the resurrection. So he's frustrated at this phase. And so the revelation kind of marks the next phase of the exodus. The Saints are receiving specific and direct guidance on how this phase is going to be conducted. And the Lord's reminder, hey, you've got to take care of the poor. You've got to take care of the fathers, the widows, the families of the men who left with the Mormon Battalion. And this has to be an equal burden distributed amongst everybody. It can't just be every man or even every family for themselves. They've got to think strategically. And the model that's set up in this Revelation, organizing the Saints into companies with captains over them, appointed to hundreds, fifties and tens, was actually used a decade earlier for Zion's camp. It does sort of hearken back to the Israelites organization in the Old Testament as well. In fact, what the Saints do here does kind of transform westward migration. One historian noted the revelation, the Section 136 helped transform the westward migration from an unfortunate necessity into an important shared spiritual experience. It's something that the Lord is using to kind of shape them into a people like they already are, but sometimes going through a shared hardship. And you can still see the wisdom in this. Even today, where we still reenact pioneer treks, it gives us a narrative that we can build our ideas around.

[Scott]

I reenacted this as a teenager. I remember doing youth conference, doing trek. I think a lot of us can relate to this, right? It's part of our heritage.

[Casey]

I remember pulling handcarts near Kenosh, Utah. And a couple years ago my ward actually went to Martin's Cove. And I mean, not under the conditions they did. I even took my family up to Martin's Cove two summers ago. And man, did they learn history. Like after all the mosquito bites and the sunburns and we walked about seven miles pulling a handcart, this was more than just an idol story. So the revelation also sets up the next 20 years of migration. It's followed really until the railroads established in Utah, which isn't until 1869. And it's estimated that about 60 to 70,000 Latter Day Saints make the trek across the plains. And all of These groups from 1846 to 1869 organize their conduct around the principles found in section 136.

[Scott]

Sounds like they worked. That's awesome. Okay, let's continue. Verse 12. Let my servants. Ezra T. Benson. That's not Ezra Taft Benson. I believe this is his grandfather, Is that correct?

[Casey]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Scott]

Let my servants Ezra T. Benson and Erastus Snow organize a company. And let my servants Orson Pratt and Wilford Woodruff organize a company. And he goes on Amass alignment. George A. Smith, Organizer 1 and appoint presidents and captains of hundreds and fifties and tens. And let my servants that have been appointed to go and teach this my will to the saints, that they may be ready to go to a land of peace. Go thy way and do as I have told you. And fear not thine enemies, for they shall not have power to stop my work. Zion shall be redeemed in mine own due time. What does that mean by this point? I don't know. And if any man shall seek to build up himself and seeketh not my counsel, he shall have no power, and his folly shall be made manifest. Seek ye and keep all your pledges one with another, and covet not that which is thy brother's. Keep yourselves from evil to take the name of the Lord in vain. For I am the Lord your God, even the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. I am he who led the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. And my arm is stretched out in the last days to save my people. Israel. Israel. Love the framing here, right? Brigham Young will be called a modern day Moses because of what's about to happen here. And the Lord is framing it here. No accident as the one who led the original exodus here and so modern Israel on a modern exodus out West. And here's how they should conduct themselves. Verse 23 Cease to contend one with another, cease to speak evil one of another. Cease drunkenness and let your words tend to edifying one another. Ah, always good, good counsel. If you borrow from your neighbor, thou shalt restore that which thou has borrowed. And if thou canst not repay, then go straightway and tell thy neighbor, lest he condemn thee. If thou shalt find that which thy neighbor has lost, thou shalt make diligent search till thou shalt deliver to him again. Thou shalt be diligent in preserving what thou hast, that thou mayest be a wise steward. Steward. For it is the free gift of the Lord thy God, and thou art his steward. Interesting that right after he talks about the children of Israel coming from the land of Egypt, he starts talking in terms of thou shalt and thou shalt not right. We know in the original story they go from Egypt down to Sinai and get some commandments, some thou shalts and thou shalt nots ways to conduct themselves in the covenant community with one another, and that's what follows here. It's almost proverbial now, how Latter day saint pioneer like organized. They're known for their organization, for their piety on the trail as well. The rules given and laid out in these verses are adapted by different companies as they make their journeys across the plains. Again, in the early spring of 1847, Brigham Young's going to lead the Vanguard Company of 143 men, 3 women, 2 children, 72 wagons, 93 horses, 66 oxen, 52 mules, 19 cows, 17 dogs, Casey and several chickens out of winter quarters, Nebraska, on their way to the rocky mountains. And Brigham Young was passionately committed to the principles found in this revelation, and he uses them as his guide on the trail. In fact, in late May, Brigham Young read to the company, his company, the word and will of the lord to caution them that they were forgetting their mission. Some of these key verses we just went through, remember those. But for the most part, the journey is going to pass pretty peacefully near a place called Scotts bluff, Nebraska. However, Brigham Young becomes irritated over the excessive levity in the camp. He delivers a stern rebuke to the pioneers, telling the company, if you don't open your heart so that the spirit of God can enter your hearts and teach you the right way, I know that you are a ruined people and will be destroyed. Oh, he adds, unless there's a change in a different course of conduct, a different spirit to what is now in the camp, I go no further. His words here are maybe a manifestation of his intense anxiety because he commented later privately, we are the pioneers for the whole church of God on the earth, seeking for a place to establish the kingdom, but we haven't found it yet. Interesting, by the way, a few weeks later, on July 24, 1847, this will be a familiar date, Brigham Young and the main body of the vanguard company arrive in the Salt Lake valley. Wilford Woodruff sums up Brigham's reaction to seeing the valley by writing this. He said, quote, president Young expressed his full satisfaction in the appearance of the valley as a resting place for the saints and was amply repaid for his journey. Journey. And then Wilford records his own reaction. He says, quote, this is an important day in the history of my life and the history of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. After traveling from our encampment six miles, we came into full view of the great valley, or basin of the salt lake and land of promise held in reserve by the hand of God for a resting place for the saints, upon which a portion of the Zion of God. God will be built. Close quote.

[Casey]

Yeah. And I remember as a young historian, I kind of wrote a smart alecky article that showed up in LDS Living. You know, the story that we tell is that Brigham Young, like, looked over the valley and said, it is enough. This is the right place. Drive on. And I just noted that, you know, what Wilford Woodruff recorded was President Young expressed his full satisfaction in the appearance of the valley as a resting place for the saints and was amply repaid for his journey, which doesn't fit onto a T shirt as well as this is the right place. I wrote it. Kind of snarky. Wilford Woodruff did say, Brigham Young said this is the right place. Drive on.

[Scott]

I was gonna ask you, did he not really say that? But he did. Okay. He did.

[Casey]

That's what Wilford Woodruff records in his journal. So that's the contemporary account. He expressed his satisfaction of valley. It's in an address given several decades later where they're commemorating their arrival in the valley, that Wilford Woodruff tells that story in the more succinct form. And again, I think Brigham Young said it, but I would say the popular image is Brigham Young looking awesome, like standing on a mountain, looking over the valley. Brigham Young was really sick. In fact, he was riding in the back of a wagon. So you can sort of imagine him, like, sitting up and going, yeah, it's the right place. You know, because he was. So they thought he was going to die. Like, at a certain point in the journey, they actually pulled out their temple robes and did a prayer circle to pray that Brigham Youngen would die. He got bit by a tick and got Rocky Mountain fever. But, yes, I trust, Brother Woodruff, that Brigham Young did say this is the right place. It's just contemporary journal. His contemporary journals. Wilford Woodruff's. Don't say that he said that. But he did. I trust him. Now we get to kind of the. How does the camp conduct itself and love these verses? Verse 28. If thou art merry, praise the Lord with singing, with music, with dancing, and with a prayer of praise and thanksgiving. If thou art sorrowful, call upon the Lord thy God with supplication that your souls may be joyful. Fear not thine enemies, for they are in mine hands, and I will do my pleasure with them. My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion. And he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom. Let him that is ignorant learn wisdom by humbling himself and calling upon the Lord his God, that his eyes may be opened, that he may see and his ears opened, that he may hear. For my spirit is sent forth into the world to enlighten the humble and contrived right to the condemnation of the ungodly. So this kind of reflects the winter quarters part of the journey where the saints, no matter how difficult it was, still managed to find joy and fellowship in each other's company. In fact, it's somewhat surprising that the Lord advised the saints to praise the Lord with singing and music and dancing and a prayer of praise and thanksgiving, because in the 19th century, dancing was sometimes thought of as an immoral form of entertainment. In fact, do you remember ever watching Footloose Scott, where Kevin Bacon has to convince them using the Bible that it's okay to dance if you're happy. And I remember watching that and thinking, Section 136 actually does a better job than the text that Kevin Bacon selected. But you know what? He's using the Bible points to him for that. In contrast to this, Brigham Young seemed to think that it was good. In fact, Brigham Young told his company, there's no harm that will arise from merriment or dancing if brethren, when they have indulged, indulged in it, know when to stop. And never forget the object of this journey. So stay focused, do it the right way now. The saints also found strength in spiritual experiences. For instance, this revelation is one of several spiritual experiences Brigham Young had at winter quarters. He also reported several dreams which he called visions when he spoke of them, where he conversed with Joseph Smith. So it's almost like in his mind, these visions are Joseph Smith coaching him on his role. In fact, he said, according to one in the dream, Joseph told him to be sure and tell the brethren that it is all important for them to keep the Spirit of the Lord, to keep the quiet Spirit of Jesus. And then Joseph also, according to Brigham, explained how the Spirit of the Lord reflected on the Spirit of man and sent him to pondering on any subject. And he also explained how to know the Spirit of the Lord from the Spirit of the the enemy. So in addition to these revelations and visions, we should note too, that at winter quarters, while this revelation is being received, they are practicing the temple ordinances too. So they have to leave the temple behind in Nauvoo. But in winter quarters, they continue to conduct sealings, endowments. In fact, there's a really peculiar form of sealing that doesn't exist in the church today that was called the law of adoption. We've mentioned this in our series on temple ordinances, but basically Brigham Young adopted several people into his family and then provided family instruction for them. In fact, one of his meetings, he declared, those that are adopted into my family, I will preside over them throughout all eternity and will stand at their head. And other apostles do this too. John Taylor, Willard Richards, Heber C. Kimball. They also adopt large numbers of men and women into their families. And the desire to gather as families in winter quarters is one insight into these verses that we should maybe keep in mind that, yeah, these saints aren't just a church. They're seeing themselves as a family. You could literally walk up to someone and say, I love you, I want you to be adopted in my family. Which later on they'll remove this because it could be problematic. But in a church where they're almost all first generation converts, this was a beautiful gesture of affection towards the people around him.

[Scott]

And I think it's 1894. Is it that Wilford Woodruff receives the revelation to cease that practice? He says, the Spirit of the Lord said, let's not do that anymore. Essentially. Okay, let's go to verse 34 now, a commentary about America at that time. He says, thy brethren have rejected you and your testimony, even the nation that has driven you out. And now cometh the day of their calamity, even the days of sorrow, like a woman that is taken in travail, and their sorrow shall be great, unless they speedily repent yet, yea, very speedily. For they killed the prophets and them that were sent unto them, and they have shed innocent blood which crieth from the ground against them. Now, if you watched our last episode when we talked about the martyrdom, we pointed out that President Oaks has mentioned that the martyrdom was a political assassination. And you could read these verses Casey as really leaning into this idea that it was much more of a big graph group of people that were plotting the assassination. He says, the nation that has driven you out, they killed the prophets, etc. It sounds bigger than just a local Carthage conspiracy, but rather more of a broader. There's one account in Carthage before the martyrdom of Joseph, where a church member named Dr. Wal Southwick reported that he attended a meeting there. And he said that there were delegates, quote, from every state in the Union except for three, including Governor Thomas Ford of Illinois, wherein they considered the best way to stop Joseph Smith's career as his views on government were widely circulated and took like wildfire. They Said I'm still quoting Wallace Southwick here. They said if he did not get into the presidential chair this election, he would be sure to the next time. And if Illinois and Missouri would join together and kill him, they would not be brought to justice for it. Close quote. Again, that sounds like much more than just a local conspiracy that supports here.

[Casey]

Thomas Ford was complicit theory.

[Scott]

I think the evidence is overwhelming that Thomas Ford was not just stupid but in on it, which is stupid to be in on it. But he was, he was both, Casey. He's both in my, my estimation. So I just think here's the Lord's confirmation that this is national, not local to some degree. Right before we move on Casey, some people have read these verses, verses 34 to 36, wondering if they are a reference to the Civil War that's going to break out in what, 15 or so years after this. That if somehow, and I don't know how to do a one to one connection on this is the Civil War somehow a fulfillment of the Lord saying their sorrow is going to be great unless they repent days of calamity like a woman taken in travail, if they don't repent because of what they've done in kicking out the Latter Day Saints, in murdering the prophets Joseph and Hyrum? I don't know. Do you feel comfortable saying that the Civil War was in some degree, at least a result or a consequence somehow of the Lord withdrawing his protection and partly because of the martyrdom and the casting of saints out of the States united? That's pretty bold to say that there.

[Casey]

Were a lot of things associated with the Civil War. And to be honest with you, we're not the only ones that use language like this. Abraham Lincoln sort of spoke of the Civil War as being necessary to atone for the great sin of slavery. And so, I mean, I don't know of any American leader that said we shouldn't have killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith. But it's clear that there was a lot of violence and a lot of bigotry and a lot of racism. Racism in the American republic. And when that kind of iniquity becomes ripe, there usually is some kind of reckoning that occurs. So I don't think it's outlandish. I don't think we're the only ones that were arguing this either. So I think it's a valid interpretation.

[Scott]

Yeah. To be clear, the verses are not saying it that explicitly, but that is a conclusion many have drawn. And I value your thoughts. Thank you. That was good. Okay. Verse 30. Therefore marvel not at these things the Lord counsels the saints. For ye are not yet pure, ye cannot yet bear my glory. But ye shall behold it if ye are faithful in keeping all my words that I have given unto you. From the days of Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Moses, from Moses to Jesus and his apostles, and from Jesus and his apostles to Joseph Smith, whom I did call upon by mine angels, my ministering servants, and by my own voice out of the heavens to bring forth my work, which foundation he did lay and was faithful, and I took him to myself. Many have marveled because of his death. Here's the Lord's commentary on the martyrdom. But it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned. And then the Lord asks, have I not delivered you from your enemies only in that I have left a witness of my name. Now therefore, hearken, O ye people of my church, and ye elders, listen together. You have received my kingdom. Be diligent in keeping all my commandments, lest judgments come upon you and your faith fail you, and your enemies triumph over you. So no more at present. Amen. And amen. Lots to say about that revelation. Casey, thanks for your good comments. We're pulling a lot of these notes from your good commentary that you've written on this section, and so much good stuff. I think when we really get into the details of it, we realize that maybe it's not true that the exodus of the Church west was filled only with sorrow and tragedy, right? Like, yes, there were a number of deaths, but in total, it's less than 3%. Not that we would minimize even those 3%. The Vanguard company that Brigham Young of was part part of, as well as fully one third of the companies that travel the trail actually experience no deaths at all. And today, when we reenact the pioneers heading west, we tend to focus on the hard ones, like the Martin and Willie handcart time, the times of immense sacrifice. Of course, they're all sacrificing to a degree, leaving their homes and stuff. But it's not like deaths every morning. It's not like you wake up every morning and someone new was dead. Except on some of the most extreme groups that cross that we mourn. Right, like the Martin and Willie handcart companies. But most of them, like, the truth is, most of them had relatively few deaths. What else do you want to say about this? I don't want to minimize it, but I also, I think sometimes we over glamorize how hard it was when of course it was for some, but that's not the story for most. Is that fair?

[Casey]

This is kind of like our discussion on Liberty Jail with Alex Baugh a couple weeks ago, where Liberty Jail was on based bad. But we sort of tend to add to the narrative, make it worse and worse. The trek west was difficult. Like, it's difficult to ask people to walk over a thousand miles to get to their home. But it wasn't miserable for them. It was a time of bonding. It creates this great shared narrative. Like I said, the fact that we still reenact the trek west as Latter Day Saints speaks to what a great shared sacrifice it was. That kind of makes us more than just a church. It makes us a people. It's a sacred narrative that still inspires and unites new generations and helps us to connect. I mean, even we're reading Sarah P. Rich and I'm able to say, hey, a couple weeks ago you told me your wife was descended from her. Related to her, I think about my ancestors who crossed the planes. A couple of them were in the Willie and Martin handcart companies. And that is sacred history to me. It's a story where an exodus is used to forge a people. And that's a story that goes back a long ways. It's found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and now in the modern history of Israel, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter Day Saints. So great, great stuff. And an important thing for us to keep in mind, remembrance, because we all benefited from what they did.

[Scott]

All right, off to our third C here, controversies with section 136, Kind of rewind the narrative a little bit. We talked about how Joseph was martyred. That's section 135 kind of narrating, announcing that. And then 136 has fast forwarded a couple years. Now we're in Winter Quarters. But in between that time, there was what we call the succession crisis of who should lead the church. And maybe that, that deserves to be fleshed out a bit because it is controversial. Not everybody after Joseph Smith's death follows Brigham Young. Some go Sidney Rigdon route, some go a different route. James Strang and others. So what led to Brigham Young becoming the leader of the church? And I guess how was that contested and how was that resolved in the minds of many?

[Casey]

Yeah, it's one of the most fascinating episodes in the history of the church. And, and we keep mentioning this, but this was our longest series before we started doing the Doctrine and Covenants. And come follow me. We did series where we do a deep dive, and this was the longest one. Like, we were so fascinated. Like 15 episodes. And I'll just state that other restoration movements have always fascinated me. I love to reach out to them. I love to compare what we believe with what they believe. But, I mean, this is more of a reflection on. On the conclusions I came to after a couple months of exploring the succession process. 1. I don't know if there's anybody else that could have done what Brigham Young did. So in my mind, Brigham Young's taking Joseph's place as leader of the church in the wake of Joseph's martyrdom is one part inspiration, because there was inspired things that happened. There's over 150 accounts of people saying Brigham Young was transfigured or they received some sort of confirmation, but it was also. Also one part practicality. Like, he was just the guy. It seems that everybody looked to him and to the 12 as well as their leaders, and that it just made sense that they would be the ones that led the church. They were the strongest organized body of leadership in the wake of Joseph Smith's death. So I believe that the Lord had a hand in it, too. But I also believe that if I was there in the Nauvoo, and I was just an average Latter Day Saint, Brigham young and the 12 would be the ones that I would look to as the most stable leaders. They were outstanding missionaries. They had converted a huge portion of the population of the Saints in Nauvoo through their mission to England. And it just made sense. So, I mean, there's processes laid out in the Doctrine and covenants, like section 107, but a lot of succession, at least when it comes to Brigham young. And the 12 was just who's the best person to do this? And. And it was Brigham Young. I mean, all the other movements out there are beautiful and wonderful, and I care about them, but I just don't know if anybody else in 1844 could have done the job. It seems like Sidney Rigdon sort of demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task. Maybe Joseph Smith iii, if he had been a grown man, he turns out to be a really remarkable leader, could have handled the rigors of the Exodus, but he was a little boy in 1844. I just think right time, right place, place, inspiration is what led them. And most people don't realize, and we talked about this in our series, that there's more fluidity to succession and how it develops. In the 19th century, we generally Think that, well, Brigham Young became the prophet and then that was it. But they actually had intense discussions when Brigham Young died and when John Taylor died. And even in the lead up to Wilford Woodruff becoming prophet, we talked about how a young whippersnapper named Heber Jacob Grant really caused major questions about the nature of succession. But it seems like by Lorenzo Snow, they had it down. And there hasn't been significant deviation from that process of succession in well over a century. In fact, one of the things that was impressed upon me when we talked about succession was that story told by Lorenzo Snow's granddaughter Allie, where she talks about how the Savior appeared to Lorenzo Snow and. And informed him to immediately reform the First Presidency, which. It's a secondhand source. It's not as strong as I want it to be, but to me, I took as well, the Savior has endorsed succession. Like he said that this is the way it's supposed to be, accepting that it could change in the future, but that he's endorsed the succession process that we now carry out and that we witnessed when President Nelson passed away a little while ago.

[Scott]

And it might be cool for our listeners to know that when they left Nauvoo, Brigham Young was not the President of the Church. It was the Quorum of the Twelve led the Church, and he was the President of the quorum of the 12. But in winter Quarters, he is going to be sustained as President of the Church, and he's going to reform the First Presidency. Now it's after he's already gone to Utah, and then he makes it back to Winter Quarters, but it's going to be at Winter Quarters. There's a monument there still today that talks about that moment where the first President Presidency was reorganized for the first time since the martyrdom of Joseph Smith right there in Winter Quarters. So a lot of key history going on in. In that spot. So let me ask one more question. Maybe we can do this one together. We noted that Brigham Young has one revelation that has been canonized in the Doctrine and Covenants. None from John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Official Declaration 1. Maybe he gives at least an account that he had had some revelation. Revelations. Lorenzo Snow? No. Joseph F. Smith, 1. And then after that, none until President Kimball, an announcement about a revelation, and that's it. It's really spotty after Joseph Smith. This is the point. And sometimes the question has been asked, like how come there's not more revelations from Joseph Smith's successors in the Doctrine of Covenants. We just have a couple. And this is our first one. So maybe it's a good time to talk about it.

[Casey]

I'd start out by the thought of saying what we're talking about. About here is dialogic revelations. Revelations that have language like Thus saith the Lord unto you, which were very common under Joseph Smith's leadership, but less common under his successors. Now, some other churches, like Community of Christ, have continued to add to the Doctrine and Covenants. I think Community of Christ is up into the 160s when it comes to their revelations, but we haven't, and that appears to be that. Dialogic revelation was a common thing for Joseph Smith, but not as common for his successors.

[Scott]

Should we be concerned by that fact or no?

[Casey]

No. I mean, number one, we do have a dialogic revelation from someone besides Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and covenants. It's section 136 I tried to track down. Did Brigham Young ever receive any revelation like this at any other time? There is record of one Chris Blythe, wonderful historian researcher who's been on our show before. Before, back in 2018, published that he had discovered a dialogic revelation given to Brigham Young that was given in February 1874. Had to do with the united order living the law of consecration. I could read it right now if you want to hear it. It's not super long.

[Scott]

Sure.

[Casey]

Okay. So this is a revelation, a dialogic revelation received in February 1874 by Brigham Young, the word of the Lord that was revealed to his people by his servant, the prophet, seer, and revelator. President Brigham Young, February, 1874. He speaks unto the people, saying, thus saith the Lord. It is my will that this people should enter into a wholly united order by concentrating their labor, their time, and their means together for the interest of my kingdom, for their own mutual benefit. And I, the Lord, will bless them abundantly. They shall get along with less labor and less means and become a great deal richer and happier and be enabled to do a great deal more good. And if not, the curse of the Lord will be upon them. For we are got as far as we can in our present position, for the time has fully come that we should enter into this holy order. The Lord saying, come. And his holy angels are saying, come. And all good men are saying, come. And I say, come. Let us enter into this holy order that the kingdom of heaven may continue to advance till it fill the whole earth with the knowledge and love of God. Hear this, O Israel. I tell you, the kingdom of God cannot advance one step further until we enter into this Holy order. So that's the second dialogic revelation that Brigham Young receives and seems to do similar to what Joseph Smith does. Brigham Young, near the end of his life, really makes a big last push to get everybody to live the law of consecration. He's calling it the United Order or the Order of Enoch in this kind of context, but it's not unprecedented. It just seems like that wasn't the way Brigham Young did things. And that's okay. Like, some people have compared Joseph Smith to Moses. Moses writes the first five books of the Bible, and then latter prophets don't appear to have written a whole lot. To be honest with you.

[Scott]

Brigham Young's more like Joshua or Elijah.

[Casey]

You know, they're prophets of action that go and do things rather than prophets that receive and write down lengthy revelation. So one argument we could make is that Joseph Smith laid down the foundation and that everybody else kind of builds on that foundation, but doesn't have to receive revelation in the exact same way at the same time. I pulled this off my shelf in preparation for today. This is Gospel Kingdom, which is a collection of John Taylor's discourses. In the back of Gospel Kingdom, there's a revelation that John Taylor receives a dialogic revelation. Among other things. It calls George Teasdale and Heber J. Grant to be members of the quorum of the 12. It was received October 13, 1882, and is kind of a call for unity among the leadership of the Church in the face of these serious persecutions.

[Scott]

So why is it not in the Doctrine and Covenants? Why is it in the back of that book?

[Casey]

John Taylor was familiar with the canonization process, right? Like, he's the one that actually canonizes the Pearl of Great Price. And Brigham Young canonizes section 136 and section 132, and section 13 and section 109 and 110. Both of them know what canonization looks like. Brigham Young actually canonizes one of his revelations, but John Taylor never, for whatever reason, goes through the canonization process with this revelation. Now, quite famously, in the last couple of Years, Weeks, an 1886 revelation that John Taylor wrote down that appears to be authentic but is still a little disputed, has been put forward to. And that wasn't canonized either. And so I don't know. I mean, not all of Joseph Smith's revelations were canonized, and that's okay. It seems like the leaders of the church also have the right to say, this should be in the doctrine covenants, or this shouldn't be. And our Church leaders have been more conservative, I guess you say, in adding to the doctrine covenants than some other restoration movements have been.

[Scott]

I think a lot of this, my take on this is that this has everything to do with our expectations and nothing to do with how things actually ought to be. For instance, we want everybody that comes after Joseph Smith to be Joseph Smith. Brothers and sisters, there was only one Joseph Smith. He was a very unique prophet, called for a second specific time and to do a specific thing. I think he needs to create the prototype, get everything here that leads to and through the revelations and ordinances that culminate in the temple. And then his successor's job is to take that and to scale it worldwide. I'm thinking of doctrine of Covenants 5, verse 10, where the Lord says, this generation shall have my word through you, Joseph. Elder McConkey has speculated maybe generation there should be dispensation like the majority. The lion's share of the revelations that we need came through Joseph Smith. That was his unique prerogative. In fact, Elder McConkey said said this. He said, every dispensation head is a revealer of Christ for his day. And every other prophet or apostle who comes after is a reflection and an echo and an exponent of the dispensation head. All such come to echo to the world and to expound and unfold what God has revealed through the man who was appointed for that era to give his eternal word to the world. And then he says, after the dispensation head, you step down appreciably and you come to prophets and apostles. That's what he said. You step down to prophets and apostles and to the elders of Israel and to wise and good and sagacious men who have the spirit of light and understanding. That's a kind way and blunt way of stating the reality, right, that everyone who comes after Joseph Smith is not Joseph Smith. We want every prophet to be like, well, Joseph did it, so you should do it. But Joseph Smith's the dispensation head, and from there you step down appreciably and you get to Brigham Young and those who succeed him. In fact, prophets themselves say stuff like this. Elder McConkey is one example. But President Nelson said back in 2018, he said, Joseph Smith is the prophet of this last dispensation. James E. Faust said, the greatest revelator in our time has been Joseph Smith. So we got to get rid of this assumption that, like, all the prophets are, like, equal and they're just like, you know, God just like works through Them just almost like puppets. Like prophets are not puppets. Joseph Smith was unique. Joseph Smith was like what Abraham was to his dispensation. You know, he was like Moses was to his dispensation. Then you. Then you step down appreciably to Joshua and to the. To the era. The era of the Judges and Samuel. You know, I think you can sense that in Scripture there's like kind of these key pillar revelators. And then those who come after, as Elder McConkey was saying, they echo and they become exponents of that message. So I think when you adjust your assumptions that way, I think, yeah, it's.

[Casey]

Not fair to use the same measuring rod for all of them. Right. God gives people different gifts and sends people to earth on different missions at the same time. The one thing I'd want to be cautious with here is not giving the impression that we don't think the church doesn't still receive revelation. Section 138, for instance, is received in 1918. It's not a dialogic revelation like Joseph Smith would receive. It's a vision that Joseph F. Smith records. Wilford Woodruff, when he issues official declarations, talks about being shown things in vision that helped him make the decision. And again, just because a prophet receives revelation in a different way than one prophet doesn't mean that it's not real. I always think of this moment where Gordon B. Hinckley. Gordon B. Hinckley was being interviewed by the American Experience, this program on pbs. And they asked him. This is the way they phrased the question. Could I ask you a little bit about revelation? Revelation itself. Some scholars who have not experienced it describe it as communication with God, but distinct from impressions or insights. How would you describe it or explain it? President Hinckley said, I think it's best to describe in the experience of Elijah, when there was a great wind and the Lord was not in the wind and a great fire, and the Lord was not in the fire, and then a still, small voice and the Lord was there. That's the best description I know of the process of revelation. So President Hinckley was saying, I get revelation. I get it in a different way than Joseph Smith did. It's not dialogic revelation, but revelation leads the church. And if you pay close attention, leaders of the church still say this all the time. In the last conference, Elder Rasbun said the family proclamation is a revelation and talked about it in that sense, too. I can just share in my own limited experience. You know, it comes on all levels of the Church in a number of different ways to a lot of different people, that we are a church of revelation, but not exactly the same kind of revelation that Joseph Smith received comes to every single person.

[Scott]

Can it be true that we have true prophets today and that Joseph Smith was a prophet, but that we can expect different things from our modern prophets than we did from Joseph, while at the same time believing and sustaining them as those who receive revelation from the Lord? I think the answer is. Is yes.

[Casey]

Yeah. Let's go to the last c. Let's talk consequences for section 136.

[Scott]

A lot of things come out of section 136. You mentioned that until. What year was it? 1869, when the railroad came through, that section 136 was the marching orders of all those who came across the plains to Utah. So clearly had major impact for. For about two decades there. What else would you say? What other consequences flow out of this revelation?

[Casey]

Well, I mentioned this earlier, but John R. Young refers to Winter Quarters as the Valley Forge of Mormondom. His words there. And if we have listeners who aren't American or aren't familiar with American history, Valley Forge was the moment of crisis. It's the make or break moment of the American Revolution where. Where they're in a low point. They're cold, they're hungry, they've been beaten down. And yet it becomes their finest hour. They stick together. They get a new sense of mission. That's when Section 136 comes along. It comes along at exactly the right moment when they need it to give them this renewed sense of purpose. And what happens at Winter Quarters does the same thing as Valley Forge. They emerge from this grim winter more confident, more united, more secure. The word and will of the Lord. Section 136 gives them renewed strength. In fact, in January 1847, after this is received, Brigham Young announced he had no more doubts nor fears of going to the mountains and felt as much security as if he possessed the treasures of the East. In fact, on April 7, 1847, the last day after General Conference, Brigham Young organizes the first wagon train of Saints to travel west to locate the new home. And Winter Quarters is used for a little while as a hub for migration, but eventually abandoned, they move across the river to Kanesville. And that becomes the hub for the next couple years. Really, it's still an important and significant place to us, but it's just a resting place. The real road was on the way to Salt Lake, where church headquarters is today. But what happened at Winter Quarters? The suffering the sacrifice. Sacrifice. And I'll say the sanctification lingers forever in their collective memory. Like, it really is a powerful experience to go to winter quarters today and see those poor little pioneer graves that remain and this beautiful monument that's been sculpted and placed there to commemorate their sacrifice. I'm grateful for it, because that's where, like I've said, we become a people. Not just a. It's more intense. To be a Latter Day Saint. Thank you. To be a part of a local neighborhood church. It's almost your ethnic identity. And these sufferings do for us what the Exodus did for the ancient Israelites. They forge us into a people.

[Scott]

So section 136 becomes the rallying point for that formation to happen. It becomes the launch pad from which we then become the kind of people that we now know ourselves as. We don't do Nauvoo reenactments. We. We do pioneer reenactments. We don't do Kirtland reenactments. We're talking about this story as one of the key moments in forging us into the kind of people that we are today. So that's a powerful point. Well, as always, that was fun to discuss with you, Casey. Really appreciate that. We look forward to our discussion next week as we near the end of the Doctrine and Covenants this year. Casey.

[Casey]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. It's been fun. We're not done yet. We've still got some really intense stuff to go through. I say this with everything, but section 138, one of my favorite revelations in the Doctrine Covenant. It's just so powerful. Great, great stuff.

[Scott]

Buckle up. Here we go.

[Casey]

All right, see you then.