Scott (2:26)

That is a Great insight into your inner workings, Casey. That's good.

Casey (2:32)

Yeah, man. I got excited. So here's the immediate context. It's given by Joseph F. Smith himself, based on a vision he receives on October 3, 1918, the day before the Church's general conference. Now, a few things about context here. President Smith had been in poor health. He's going to die just a couple weeks after he records this vision. And he was largely confined to his room. So people were really shocked when he actually appeared at conference the next day. And he only spoke really briefly once in the conference. This is what he says. Okay. He gets up in conference. And again, there's some records that say people, like, gasped when he walked up to the stand. He said, I have been undergoing a siege of a very serious illness for the last five months. It would be impossible for me on this occasion to occupy sufficient time to express the desires of my heart and my feelings as I would desire them to you. I will not, I dare not attempt to enter upon many things that are resting upon my mind this morning. And I shall postpone until some future time, the Lord being willing my attempt to tell you some of the things that are in my mind and that dwell in my heart. I have not lived alone these five months. I have dwelt in the spirit of prayer, of supplication, of faith, and of determination. And I have had my communication with the spirit of the Lord continually. So imagine the prophet getting up and saying that, and that's all he says in conference. Just like I haven't been alone these last five months. I've been in communication with God.

Scott (4:07)

Is that the whole talk?

Casey (4:08)

That's it, yeah. That's pretty much all he says. Which again, huge cliffhanger. Like, what are you talking about? And you're not going to say anything else. He's one of the most powerful doctrinal teachers in the history of the church, and he's undergone this process of systematizing the Church's theology. Like that was his big project as president of the Church, was to kind of pin down everything that hadn't been pinned down. But let's pull back a little bit. Tier 2. There's his declining health, but there's also worry over world events and as series of personal tragedies. This all combines to create probably the most difficult and trying time of President Smith's life. So let me put a couple things out here. Section 138 was received just 38 days before the end of the most devastating war in history. To that point, what we call the day World War I, but at that time was being called the war to end all wars, the Great War. My grandma had some encyclopedias from the 1930s that I used to read when I was a kid. Tells you another thing about me. And I remember in the encyclopedia this was always just referred to as the Great War. Like we're never going to top this one. It was the worst ever. I mean, military casualties in World War I are above 39 million with 9 million dead. And the war was longer and bloodier and worse than anybody had imagined. And it's about to its end. It's also the first time really that Latter Day Saints in mass numbers go and fight in an American war. So we've got boys over in France while this is going on and giving their lives on the fields of the Great War, then the great influenza epidemic of 1918. So again, context here is 1918. This eventually kills more people than the war does, probably double the number of people die because of the influenza epidemic that happens here. In fact, in the month of October 1918 alone, there would be more deaths than any previous month in American history, largely due to this spreading pandemic. So death is all around President Smith. Death because of the war, death because of the pandemic. In fact, we just lived through a pandemic, so we're familiar kind of with the emergency conditions. The influenza epidemic of 1918 is a little bit different in that it disproportionately affected people between the ages of 24 and 34 people in the prime of their lives. We're used to COVID 19, which disproportionately affected the elderly people at the end of their lives. And so particularly military installations, troop ships, troops that are coming back, back from the war, the number of the dead is so high that there's pictures of the bodies just stacked up like cordwood in morgue. In fact, out of the 116,000American servicemen who died in World War I, more than half died because of the flu or pneumonia. And so this is bad. Like I remember when I was writing my book on Joseph Merrill, he lost a son. He lost a son who joined the army and then died in basic training from influenza. So this is just bad stuff. Now we've got tragedies happening on the world stage, and President Smith is the prophet to the entire world. But then there's personal tragedies happening with his own family. President smith loses on January 23, 1918, his oldest son, Hiram Mack, who's an apostle, and he doesn't die of Influenza. He has a ruptured appendix. So this thing, which probably would have been completely preventable, takes away his son. His son is incredibly gifted, writes the first commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants. Just a really, really solid all around guy. Upon hearing word that his son had passed away, President Smith wrote in his journal this. He wrote, my soul is rent asunder. My heart is broken and it flutters for life. Oh, my sweet son. My joy, my hope. Oh, God, help me. So he loses a child and a child who's in his 40s and has his own family. There's a family picture that they used to have up in the beehive house of President Smith's entire family. And Hiram M. Is there holding a little girl who becomes the mother of Russell Ballard. That's how closely this connects to our time. Then, about a month before Section 138 is received, Ida Bowman Smith, who's Hyrum's widow, dies of heart failure on September 24th. So this is just days before he receives the vision. I mean, the hits just keep on coming. And that means that President Smith has five orphans in his family that he's got to keep an eye on the children of them. So death is all around him. And that's what seems to have fixated him on seeking knowledge about the world of spirits, the afterlife. So he makes that cryptic statement in general conference. And then after the conference, he pulls in another son named Joseph Fielding Smith, future president of the church, and tells him to sit down and type this out while he dictates it. That's where the earliest text comes from. So the text is presented to the quorum of the Twelve and the Presiding Patriarch of the Church on October 31st. Less than a month later, it's unanimously accepted by them. And then President Smith, Joseph F. Smith, passes away on November 19. Then the text of the vision is published in the deseret news on Nov. 30 with the title Vision of the Redemption of the Dead. It's also published in all the church magazines. The improvement era, December 1918 edition. And so the vision is really well known among the saints. You can find it in copies of Gospel Doctrine, which is President Smith's book of teachings, essentially, that exists, and it's a natural. Like everybody quotes it, it's. Well, it's often referred to. So it seems pretty natural to put it in the Doctrine and Covenants, which they don't do until 1976. And then along with Section 137, it's moved to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1981, so. Man, such a compelling context.

Scott (10:02)

Okay, so it was moved into Scripture canon in the Pearl of great price in 1976 and then moved to the Doctrine of Covenants in 1981. Got it. I have an old copy of Scriptures as a kid that I would read and it's like way older than it should have been for me being an 80s baby. But I remember reading this as a kid in the Pearl of Great Price, not in the Doctrine of Covenants. That had to be. Yeah, 1976 edition, probably. So anyway. So it doesn't last very long in the Pearl, but it was there for a time, I remember.

Casey (10:32)

Yeah. The Pearl of Great Price is the random grab bag of things. We're not quite sure where they should go.

Scott (10:37)

Where should we put it? Let's put it in the Pearl.

Casey (10:39)

But then they sort of said, you know, this isn't a Joseph Smith Jr. Revelation, but it is a major game changer. And it is. And so they put it in the Doctrine and Covenants, which makes complete sense.

Scott (10:49)

Man, you painted a very vivid picture that the word on the mind of the prophet at the time and on the mind of the saints all around the world and people around the world is death. So with that in mind, we now enter into the content. On the 3rd of October, in the year 1918, I sat in my room pondering over the Scriptures, he begins, and reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God for the redemption of the world and the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world, that through his atonement and by obedience to the principles of the Gospel, mankind might be saved. I was just struck by verse 1 on the 3rd of October. When was that general Conference that you said? He stood up and spoke briefly the next day.

Casey (11:43)

So this is the day before General Conference that he has this vision?

Scott (11:47)

Yes. Okay. So when he alluded to my communications with the Spirit have been continual in the last five months, he had just come off of this vision.

Casey (11:57)

Yeah, it seems like that's what he's talking about.

Scott (11:59)

That's striking. Okay. And then he says verse five. While I was thus engaged in pondering on Scripture, my mind reverted to the writings of the apostle Peter, to the primitive saints scattered abroad throughout Pontus, Galicia, Cappadocia and other parts of of Asia, where the Gospel had been preached after the crucifixion of the Lord. I opened the Bible and I read the third and fourth chapters of the first Epistle. Of Peter. And as I read, I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages. Now he quotes Peter, for Christ also hath once suffered for sins the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which also he, Jesus, went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, when the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water. End of quote of Peter, first Peter 3, 18, 20. And then he quotes the next chapter, verse 10, in section 138, verse 6 of first Peter 4. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit. Okay, so in the midst of both global and personal tragedies that President Smith is grappling with, I love that his impulse, his instinct was to turn to scripture for solace and then to just note how certain passages. I know he's read a lot of those passages hundreds of times in his life by this point, that he is more impressed now than I had ever been before with these first Peter, chapter three and four. This is significant, right? I remember Joseph Smith Talking about James 1:5. Never had a passage entered with more. How does he say it? More force into my heart than these did, or something like that. More power. That's happening, right. Maybe that's evidence that the Spirit is working in the midst of your Scripture study when that kind of thing happens. And by the way, I love that he's also going for these little nuggets, like anywhere in Scripture, if you wanted to know, like, what did Jesus do between his death and his resurrection? Like, all you have to go on is 1st Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4. There's nowhere else that talks about that up to this point, right? And so his mind reverts to those verses. What we're about to witness in what follows is the greatest expansion on our understanding of what Peter was talking about anywhere in Scripture. And this is not just a mild expansion. This is a massive expansion on what we're about to learn about this. I will note that Joseph Smith had commented on this. These. These passages in Peter once in the times and seasons, in 1842 in Nauvoo, Joseph said this. He said, quote, peter also, in speaking concerning our Savior, says that he, quote, went and preached unto spirits in prison. And he quotes the passage here Then Joseph says, we have an account of our Savior preaching in prison to spirits that had been imprisoned from the days of Noah. And what did he preach to them? Them that they were to stay there. Certainly not let his own declaration testify. Quote, he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, and to set at liberty them that are bruised. And that's quoting Luke, which is quoting Isaiah, right? Isaiah has it saying, to bring out the prisoners from the prison and them that sit in darkness from the prison house. This is still Joseph explaining that. And so he says, it's very evident from this that Jesus not only went to preach to them, but to deliver or bring them out of the prison house. Close quote. So up, up to Joseph F. Smith's time, like, that's. That's as much prophetic expansion as we've had on First Peter, chapter three and four, and then this.

Casey (15:47)

A lot of Christians have wrestled with those verses and even sort of constructed a rudimentary theology around them. And I don't want to speak too broadly. I have seen Christian churches that have said, well, this is where Jesus went and found people that had died before his atoning sacrifice. So he went and he saved Abraham and Isaac and righteous people like that. But they don't broaden it as much as President Smith does. In fact, you've just read the Scriptural foundation. Now we get to the vision. Picking it up in verse 11. As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me. And I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great. They were gathered together in one place, an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality, and who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God and had suffered tribulation in the Redeemer's name. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hopes of a glorious resurrection through the grace of God the Father and his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand. So it seems like the vision is of the spirit world, but the spirit world in a specific time. So it's a vision of both space and time. The host of the dead, both small and great. But it seems like he's not seeing the kingdoms of glory because he says the Resurrection hasn't happened yet. It seems like he's seeing the post mortal spirit world, which when we draw the plan of salvation, right, we can't just jump straight to the kingdoms from earth. There's got to be a stopping point, a world of spirits that people rest in until they're resurrected. In fact, in June 1843, Joseph Smith gives a discourse where he talks about this postmortal spirit world. He said, there has been also much said about the word hell, and the sectarian world have preached much about it. But what is hell? It is another modern term. It is taken from Hades, the Greek, or Sheol, the Hebrew. And the true signification is a world of spirits. Hades, Sheol, paradise. Spirits in prison is all one. It is a world of spirits. The righteous and the wicked go to the same world of spirits. So Joseph Smith introduces this idea that you know, taking it text like Jesus on the cross, and he speaks to the thief that testifies on his behalf. He says, verily, I say unto you this day you will be with me in paradise. But Joseph Smith is saying, no. The world of the spirits, paradise, Sheol, hell, all these places are this area that people go to to await the resurrection, because everyone gets resurrected. In fact, Brigham Young further elaborates on this. Brigham Young taught that the world of spirits actually surrounds us. It's like a layer of reality, but is only discernible through spiritual eyes. Here's the way Brigham Young said it. He said, when spirits leave their bodies, they are prepared then to see, hear and understand spiritual things. Can you see spirits in this room? No. Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see. Could you then see the spirits? Yes. As plainly as you now see bodies, as did the servant of Elijah. He's making reference to 2 Kings 6, 16, 17, that classic old Testament story. More with us than are against us. Where Elijah touches the spiritual eyes of his servant and he sees the hills filled with armies. And Brigham continues, if the Lord would permit it, and it was his will that it should be done, you could see the spirits that have departed from this world as plainly as you now see bodies with your natural eyes. In fact, another text. This is from Jedediah Grant, who was one of Brigham Young's counselors. Fiery counselor. He passes away at a relatively young age. But Heber C. Kimball, one of Brigham Young's other counselors, said that on his deathbed, Jedediah Grant had said this. He said to me, this is Heber C. Kimball. He said to me, brother Heber, I have been into the spirit world. Two nights succession and all of the dreads that ever came across me. The worst was to have to again return to my body, though I had to do it. But oh, says he, the order and government that were there. When in the spirit world I saw the order of righteous men and women, beheld them organized in their several grades, and there appeared to be no obstruction to my vision. I could see every man and woman in their grade and order. I looked to see whether there was any disorder there, but there was none. Neither could I see any death, nor any darkness, disorder or confusion. He said that the people he there saw were organized in families, capacities, and when he looked at them, he saw grade after grade and all were organized and in perfect harmony. He would mention one item after another and say, why, it is just as Brother Brigham says it is. It is just as he has told me many a time. So again, this doctrine that President Smith is going to really expand on is present among the 19th century saints. Joseph Smith teaches it, Brigham Young teaches it, Jedediah Grant teaches it. Joseph F. Smith would have been familiar with all of these teachings. But boy, section 13038 is finally going to bring this home and when it gets canonized place into the Scriptures. What is probably the most detailed description we have of the post mortal spirit.

Scott (20:58)

World really like clicking like zooming in if you will, on Jesus's post mortal pre resurrection ministry. It's kind of the hidden ministry of Jesus or the missing ministry, right? Like we don't know much about Jesus's ministry prior to his resurrection direction after his death until this vision. And so that's, that's the moment in time as you mentioned. It's space and time, it's spirit world and the time is the ministry of Jesus, right as he's coming into the spirit world. We got all these people anticipating Jesus is coming to set us free. Verse 16, for instance, picks it up right there. It says they were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world to declare their redemption from the bands of death. Death. You feel their anticipation building. Their sleeping dust was going to be restored to its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them the spirit and the body to be united, never again to be divided, that they might receive a fullness of joy. And while this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful. And there he preached to them the everlasting Gospel. Notice he's teaching the faithful people the everlasting Gospel. The doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall and from individual sins on conditions of repentance. But verse 20, a little plot twist here. Unto the wicked he did not go. And among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh his voice was not raised. Okay, we did not know that. This is a new fact. Peter did not mention this. Nobody knew this until now. That Jesus spoke to the righteous, not to the wicked. Verse 21. Neither did the rebellious, who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned. But among the righteous there was peace. We're starting to see there's kind of these different compartments in the spirit world. There's a place of righteousness and there's a place of. What do you call them? Rebellious, wicked, ungodly, unrepentant. We're going to have these words swirling around here. These are separate places within the spirit world. We'll talk more about that in a second. And the saints rejoiced in their redemption and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their redeemer and deliverer from death. And the chains of hell, their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them. And they sang praises unto his holy, holy name. The picture that that paints is so beautiful, the anticipation. I don't know if you've ever been to, like, a concert or you're kind of waiting for, like, the main event to happen. You've been waiting for. I don't know, sometimes you have to wait for a couple hours for some of these things to get the best seats and to be. You know, there's all that anticipation. There's a buildup. And then when that person comes out on the stage, you know, I don't want to compare this to that, but in my head, I was kind of picturing that. Magnify that by whatever eternal glory here. Like, that anticipation. Some of these people have been dead for a long time, Casey. That's a lot of buildup. And notice that even the righteous are talking about their separation from their body as bondage, as captivity, and that Jesus is coming to rescue them from that. Like, even the righteous need redeeming, Redeeming from death and hell here. He calls it the chains of hell, which even the righteous were subject to, if we understand the doctrine right here, until Jesus. Jesus redeems them from that. So hell, Hades, sheol, spirits, separation from your body. Like, all of that is kind of bundled up in that phrase. Right. So very interesting. So let's talk about the. Maybe the separation. Okay. Sometimes we want to draw this, you know, as a circle. This is spirit world. And then we kind of draw some lines like, okay, here's paradise. And then here's like, I don't know, outer darkness or something. But this is kind of giving us a little more nuanced picture. Right. We. We do have both the righteous and the wicked in the same place. We're noticing here they tend to congregate in separate spaces. So if we're gathering them all together. So group one are talked about as the faithful, the righteous, and the saints. Those are the words that have been used so far in verses 12 through 19 and 22 through 24 here. Faithful, righteous, and saints. Those seem to be congregated together. And then group two seems to be in verses 20 through 22, the wicked, the ungodly, and the unrepentant. And then maybe even a third group called the rebellious. So maybe within group two, there's like another division where the rebellious are, like, the furthest away or something. That's where darkness reigns. He said. Super interesting. Whether this is. Is this by compulsion or is this by choice that they separate from one another in the spirit world. Don't know. Maybe it's a lot like how people do it here today. Birds of a feather tend to flock together. Maybe it's like that. Or maybe there are rules and laws. That much is not clear here. But what is clear is that there is a clear separation.

Casey (25:48)

Yeah, this text does suggest that there is a separation. But when we draw the spirit world, we tend to draw a circle, then a line in the middle, and we label one part paradise and one part prison, which we do for reasons of simplicity. Right. But this presents an incredibly nuanced picture where, like you said, there might be three divisions. Like, really the most accurate way to draw it would probably be paradise, prison, and hell. Like where the rebellious actually are suffering for their sins. Later on in the section, they're going to us that the righteous go to where the wicked are, which suggests some sort of geographical separation. Or like you mentioned, it could be that they're choosing where they're going to be. Like, Jesus is showing up in General conference in the spirit world, but he's going to send the missionaries to go to spiritual Sin City.

Scott (26:35)

Okay, here's a. Here's a controversial hot take how about we draw the circle of the spirit world and we just label the whole thing prison? Right.

Casey (26:42)

It is, in a sense. He actually says they looked upon the absence of their bodies as prisoners.

Scott (26:48)

Prison.

Casey (26:48)

So the whole thing is prison in one sense.

Scott (26:50)

And then there's subdivisions within the prison, whether by choice or by some law we don't know. But yeah, we're starting to see some nuance into the world of the dead.

Casey (27:00)

Picking it up in verse 25, I marveled, For I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance. And and yet, notwithstanding his mighty works and miracles and proclamation of the truth in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice and rejoiced in his presence and received salvation at his hands. But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and the resurrection. And I wondered at the words of Peter, wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometimes were disobedient, who once the long suffering of God, waited in the days of Noah, and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time. Yeah, he's bringing up some good questions. I mean, the three days are that he died on Friday, was in the grave all day Saturday, and came out on Sunday. So it's not even three days as in three 24 hour periods. We're counting parts of three days. He's in the grave. And it's a legit question for President Smith to say how did he get so much done in that time? And I know time doesn't work the same for Jesus as it does for us, but it's a legit question. Okay. Verse 29. As I wondered, my eyes were opened and my understanding quickened. And I perceived the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth to teach them. But behold from among the righteous. He organized his forces and appointed messengers club with power and authority and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the Gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men. And thus was the gospel preached to them. The dead and the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound even unto all who would repent of their sins. And receive the Gospel. It makes so much sense that he's not there to do all the work himself. He's there to organize the work, to authorize the work, to send them forth. He's holding a big conference.

Scott (29:01)

Could we say he's setting up a spirit world MTC and kind of a hub of place for them to get prepared and then go out and teach.

Casey (29:09)

Yeah, a spirit world mission. I mean, one thing that we need to think about is there are parts of Jesus Christ's atonement that only he is capable of accomplishing. Like King Benjamin taught, he shall suffer temptations and pains of body, hunger, thirst, fatigue, more than man can suffer, except it be unto death. For behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish and wickedness for abominations of his people. That's Mosiah 3, 7. Nobody else can do this. Another hymn. This is a green hill far away. There was no other good enough to pay the price of sin. He only could unlock the gates of heaven. Let us in modern apostles. Elder Holland taught Jesus was the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the premortal council to be foreordained to that service. Only Jesus can suffer in Gethsemane, can suffer on the cross for our sins and our infirmities. But there's other aspects of Jesus work of salvation which we just kind of put under the broad umbrella of the atonement that he actively invites his disciples, the living and the dead, to participate in as co laborers. For instance, in the Scriptures, in three different places, the word save yours appears not save yours, save yours with an S on the end. That's in Obadiah chapter 1, verse 21, Mosiah 15, 15:18 and Doctrine and Covenants 76, 66. In the vision Joseph F. Smith receives, he sees that Jesus organized the righteous and sent them among the wicked to carry out the work of preaching to teach them the gospel. He organizes his forces and appointed Messeng clothed with power and authority. These are President Smith's words and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the Gospel to them that were in darkness. So the Lord appoints covenant disciples to go into the places where the wicked or the people that didn't have a chance to hear it are and teach them. So it makes sense that he's organizing. He can do this with a limited amount of time, organizing the spirits of the righteous into a big old army of missionaries and sending them to teach the gospel. And honestly. The next part of the vision explains who was there and that there's some of the most important and venerable. This is the dream team, right? This is the, the spiritual dream team that he sends into spirit prison to teach the gospel.

Scott (31:26)

What would it be like, Casey, to be a missionary in the, in the spirit world and you get your mission call and it says you're called to serve in hell. This is the real deal. In fact, let's, let's pick it up in verse 32. Look at this. Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died and this their sins without a knowledge of the truth. So that's one group or those in transgression having rejected the prophet. So some are there who've heard it in mortality and rejected it, and the Gospel is still being preached to them. What were they taught? Verse 33. These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. That almost sounds like article of Faith 4, but with a little vicarious baptism thrown in there. And then verse 30 and all other principles of the gospel they were taught that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. It's interesting. He doesn't say in order to qualify them for the celestial kingdom. He says in order to qualify them to be judged according to men in the flesh. So I don't know if that means judged according to. To what they would have been judged like had they received this in the flesh, or if there's more deep nuance to that. I'm not sure, but I like it. Verse 35. And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh that they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally because of their rebellion and transgression, that they, through the ministration of his servants, might also hear his words. That's so cool. So this is the vision of how he did so much in so little time. He focused on the group who would take the Gospel to everybody else, which we've already already mentioned. Now notice here that the ordinances and the principles of the gospel are essentially the same for the living and the dead. The primary difference in the way the Gospel is taught in mortality in the spirit world is just the way that the. The ordinances of the gospel are carried out, and that is by vicarious ordinance or by proxy. Right? They can't make those covenants unless someone with a body does it. Why is never explained. Why do we have to have a body to make these covenants? That's never explained. But the fact that it is required is clear. And this, this is probably the clearest place in scripture to. To show that, like they have to receive these ordinances, but they can't except by proxy. And they need to do it in order to be able to be judged as if they had received these. Immortality, I think, is what he's saying here. So interesting. Once accepted or rejected there, that would be similar to accepting or rejecting it here. And they get to choose that. And I think that's the whole point, is we want to give every single soul the opportunity to choose to accept Christ through his gospel. And that's the punchline, right? That's what everyone needs to hear. He has redeemed mankind and you're invited into his kingdom and it's up to you to accept or reject that. But we want to make sure you have that choice to accept or reject that. That speaks to the mercy of God, doesn't it? That the mercy of God and the justice of God, I think, is on full display there. It makes it fair no matter when you lived, where you lived. Let's give you a fair shot at receiving the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Casey (34:53)

Now we get to who the missionaries were, which, I've got to be honest, is my favorite part of section 138. So it says this. Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the ancient of days and the father of all, and our glorious mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. I gotta pause and say, say this is the last canonical glimpse we get of Adam and Eve. This is their latest appearance. We know that the time that Jesus was crucified, they were still together. They were still united in mission, they were still carrying this out. Just a nice connection with the beginning here to say they were the first ones that he saw. And I'm guessing when he says daughters of Eve, we're talking Sarah, Rebecca, all those righteous women in the Old Testament that had lived to that point. Then he's going to start moving fast. Abel the first martyr was there. His brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father Adam. Noah, who gave warning of the flood. Shem the great high priest. Abraham, the father of the faithful Isaac, Jacob and Moses, the great lawgiver of Israel. And Isaiah, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there. Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, bones which were to be clothed upon with flesh to come again in the resurrection of the dead living souls. Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never to be destroyed nor given to other people. Elias, who was with Moses on the mount of Transfiguration. And Malachi, the prophet, who testified of the coming of Elijah, of whom also Moroni spake to the prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering out of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. They were also there. The prophet Elijah was there to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord, in the dispensation of the fullness of times for the redemption of the dead and sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be spent with a curse and utterly wasted his coming. Then he adds these and many more. Even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in this vast assembly and waited for their deliverance. So that one sentence adds in Lehi and Nephi and Sam and Jacob and Enos and King Benjamin and Abinadi. They're all there. He said this, for the dead had long looked upon the absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. These the Lord taught and gave power to come forth after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into the Father's kingdom, to be crowned with immortality, immortality and eternal life. So I remember when I was writing the commentary that we put on Doctrine of Covenants Central. It took me about a year. We started in August and I was ending in August. The last time we did the Come Follow Me curriculum. And I was writing this section on an airplane when I was coming back from a church history tour. And I remember thinking, if this was the end of the Doctrine and Covenants, this would be the most perfect end. End. It's like the Avengers endgame where every prophet that lived prior to Jesus Christ is there. And all the Nephite prophets, all the Old Testament prophets, they're just doing their thing. Like this is the perfect way to end the Scriptures.

Scott (38:19)

Yeah, Sons of Mosiah. I'm thinking of like some of like the most like powerful like missionaries in the Book of Mormon. We got Alma Amulek, Sons of Mosiah, Abinadi. You mentioned him.

Casey (38:30)

Like, oh man, Alma the Younger would be here by now. Alma the Elder, Helaman, all these people. Again, the best missionary team on earth. But President Smith does add in some interesting doctrinal nuggets here in this little scripture unit, which is you mentioned before, they looked upon the absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage. So like you said, the whole thing's prison, or at least bondage because we gotta have a body in order to fully experience a fullness of joy. Section 93. However, before these amazing people are going to be reunited with their bodies, they have to participate in this great rescue effort to help everybody have a chance to come unto Christ and accept the gospel. So the Savior organizes the dream team of missionaries, the greatest group of missionaries ever known, and then sends them into purgatory, prison, whatever you want to call it. But this is a formidable group to say the least. And again, just, I sort of wish we would have ended the scriptures here because it's like the last scene of the movie where everybody comes together and goes into battle against the bad guys in one epic confrontation.

Scott (39:38)

Okay, then he's not done. Look at verse 53. He says the prophet Joseph Smith and my father Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fullness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter day work, including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead were also in the spirit world. I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God. Even before they were born, they with many others received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. So these verses are interesting as it shows a shift to now Joseph F. Smith's own time. Right. He's not seeing a vision of Jesus's post mortal pre resurrection ministry, but rather like almost like a scene change to this moment where he Saw in premortality this group that was prepared to help come forth and bring the work of God about which would lead to the redemption of the human family. He mentions his own dad, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others he had personally known. Right. Joseph F. Smith knew these people. He just says many others. That's got to be a big list. We don't know who else he saw. He just says many other people, faithful men and women, no doubt, those who were held in reserve to help bring forth this work. He says there's maybe an added level of poignance to this little part, especially verse 53 here, when he mentions his own father, Hyrum Smith, who he had lost when he was only five years old. I mean, you mentioned the latter part of his life, Casey, but I mean, the first part of his life was also punctuated by unexpected death. His dad was murdered in Carthage jail. President Smith, actually, he once recorded in his journal that thinking of his childhood in Nauvoo, invoked, quote, sacred memories of the past, made doubly and at the same time dear and dreadful by the sacred resting place of my father's death. Dust and the dreadful scenes that once and to my memory, clear as day, he said, brought gloom and horror upon the honest world and filled 10,000 hearts with grief and woe. He still remembered that as a five year old. So he sees his dad in this vision that had to be poignant. And he got to see them, along with the great prophets of ancient and modern times, united in one purpose, to bring to pass the salvation of the human family in as much as we can do. Right. I love how you said Jesus. There were some things only, only Jesus could do. And he did that part. And then he commissions us to do the rest or do it in tandem with him, if you will. That's beautiful. That's powerful.

Casey (42:19)

So picking it up in verse 57, he said, I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart for mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption through the sacrifice of the only begotten Son of God among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great, great world of the spirits of the dead. This is confirming something that President Smith had taught earlier. He actually, on a separate occasion, gave a discourse where he taught this idea. In fact, here's the excerpt from the discourse he said. This gospel revealed to the prophet Joseph is already being preached to the spirits in prison, to those who have passed away from this stage. Of action into the spirit world without the knowledge of the gospel. Joseph Smith is preaching the gospel to them. So is Hyrum Smith. So is Brigham Young. So are all the faithful apostles that lived in this dispensation under the administration of the prophet John Joseph. They are there having carried with them from here the holy priesthood that they received under authority and which was conferred upon them in the flesh. They are preaching the gospel to the spirits in prison. For Christ, when his body lay in the tomb, wanted to proclaim liberty to the captives and open the prison doors to them that are bound. Not only are these engaged in the work, but hundreds and thousands of others. The elders that have died in the mission field have not finished their mission. They're continuing them in the spirit world. So he's already kind of taught this idea that the prophets before him have continued their work in the spirit world. And this is reinforced by visions held by others, too. Heber J. Grant had a vision where he saw his own father with Joseph Smith in the spirit world. Still working on things, still plotting and planning, Brigham Young had several visions or dreams. He wasn't clear on what they were of Joseph Smith coming, coming back and giving him instructions. But again, it's this idea of, no, when we die, we don't just sit on a cloud and play a harp. We get to work. We do the great work and maybe the most important work and maybe the most consequential work, because it's where most people actually do join the church in the spirit world. Then he concludes by saying, the dead who repent will be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. This was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me. And I bear record, and I know this record to be true through the blessing of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Even so. Amen. That is a lot. And the vision covers a lot of theological ground, but what it does is basically provide us with the most detailed look at the spiritual world and what goes on in the post mortal spirit world of any document that we have. Just incredibly, incredibly powerful. And, you know, I can't believe they didn't add it to the Doctrine and Covenants sooner like this. Seems like a game changer. The day it was received, that just something that completely changed our perception of what life after death is actually like and how the work in the spirit world takes place. Which prior to this there were some source, but it was fairly vague over what happens on the other side of the veil.

Scott (45:23)

Yeah. Amen, man.

Casey (45:24)

Well, let's do some controversies here. When I wrote my commentary on this, I was sort of assuming it was a series of visions, but we're doing our preliminary work today and you kind of challenged me and said, what if it's not? Is he suggesting that the spirit world after we die is the same as the spirit world, world where we live before we're born? What is the spirit world and how does it relate to premortality and post mortality, all that stuff? Enlighten us.

Scott (45:55)

Well, I don't know what kind of illumination's about to happen, and I don't even know if I believe this, Casey, but look at verses 53 through 56 again. So he had just been talking about that who's who list of Elijah and Malachi and Sham and Noah and. Right. All these great people who were involved. And then without skipping a beat, he says verse 53, the prophet Joseph Smith and my father Hyrum Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and those who are reserved to come forth in the last days to take part in this work, including the building of temples, the performance of ordinances, etc. Etc. Were also in the spirit world. That's the end of verse 54. Were also in the spirit world. Also meaning what? Also with who? What do you mean also Also? The only antecedent to also the only other group he's been talking about is that a team from Adam down to whoever in the Book of Mormon prophets and all those people in the spirit world who Jesus commissioned to go and preach. And now he mentions these other people that obviously were not in the spirit world when Jesus was setting up his ministry, at least not in the sense of going to preach to the the dead. And then he says they were also in the spirit world. So some have read this verse, I'm not saying I'm one of them, but some have looked at this and said, that looks like there's only one spirit world. And then just to accentuate the point, verse 56, even before they were born, they with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits singular, and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for of the sake salvation souls of men. So some have speculated that the premortal spirit world and the post mortal spirit world are one in the same, which would totally change how we draw the circles, wouldn't It. Casey, what do you think about it?

Casey (47:41)

Any reactions?

Scott (47:42)

Pushback to that theory, which I'm not saying I espouse, but I think it's a fun and intriguing thing to think about here.

Casey (47:49)

I'm assuming this is several different visions and that the vision of the righteous on the day Jesus. Jesus dies and appears in the spirit world is different than the vision where he sees Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff. I don't know why he doesn't mention Lorenzo Snow. He was there, too, but it seems like he just flashed. It's kind of like the Book of Revelation where the past, present and future are all the same thing to God. So God changes the channel. And I think President Smith doesn't do the best job spelling out when this happens. But there's some major philosophical problems with saying that premortality and post mortality are both just a world of spirits. First one, are we organized into families before we come to earth or after that Jedediah Grant quote where he said families are organized in the spirit world seems to make sense in the post mortal spirit world. But did I know who my wife was in premortality? That seems to contradict what a lot of the leaders of the church have said. The second thing is, is what's the probationary state like? Is that premortality as well? Like, it seems like, when was the veil placed over our minds? And does that automatically end when we die? Does that seem like we do get our memories back when we die? Because most people that undergo the test actually accept and make covenants in the spirit world. So it doesn't mesh that premortality and postmortality would overlap with each other because they're fundamentally different tests that a person's going through. And so I'm assuming that the vision keeps changing here, and President Smith is in the midst of kind of this panoptic experience, and he's just not doing the best job spelling out when the vision changes changed. But it does seem like this is a series of visions and not one vision where Adam and Eve are present on the day Jesus is crucified. And Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are also there. I think Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were in premortality. They were getting ready to go. And it's a sweet idea. Sometimes we say things when a baby is born like, oh, they were with their grandma and grandpa just yesterday. But it doesn't quite work philosophically or doctrinally based on our understanding what the test is. I could be wrong, but that's what.

Scott (49:58)

I think yeah, the only word that like is just so compelling is in verse 54 when he says also. It's like, why did he say also in the spirit world? Maybe verse 57 strengthens your argument. Notice this. He says, those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin, in the great world of the spirits of the dead. That seems to make a delineation that there is a great world of the spirits of the dead. So I like that he added that of the dead piece there. That. That seems to help a little bit with the argument that they're separate places. I'm with you. Theologically, that's less comfortable for me to say that the same place than to say that they are separate. And I like verse 57, the great world of the spirits of the dead, suggesting that there is a specific place called that, separate from what we might call the great world of the spirits of the preborn, or something like that. Right. So two weeks ago, when we studied Section 133, we talked about how at Christ's resurrection, all the righteous who lived before Christ were resurrected. So help me out with this temporally, meaning, like the timeline of this. So does Christ meeting with Adam and Eve and all the other ancient prophets in the spirit world to commission them to go out and to preach the gospel to those that are dead, the rebellious, etc. Does that contradict what Section133 was saying? Saying about how the righteous were resurrected with Christ? Because if Christ couldn't get it done in a day and a half and he commissioned this group to go and teach it so he could be resurrected and the work could go on in the spirit world, then what do we make of all these people being resurrected with Christ? Wouldn't that be his whole missionary force that he had just commissioned to go and teach the dead? So what do you think? Is there a conflict there, or do you have a way to kind of work through that?

Casey (51:38)

Maybe a couple different ways to solve this. The easiest one would just be to say they were resurrected with Christ in a general sense, not the exact time Jesus was resurrected, that the resurrection started then. Now, the text in Matthew that says the graves of many were opened does suggest that some people were resurrected at or near the time Jesus was resurrected. However, there's nothing in that text that's specific enough that doesn't give us, oh, a couple years, a couple decades, maybe even a couple centuries, centuries before all of these righteous people that live before Christ are resurrected too. The second way I'd solve it is to say who's to say resurrected beings can't minister in the spirit world. It doesn't seem like they're really cut off from ministering anywhere just because they have a physical body. And section 131 suggests that if your eyes were adjusted, you could see into the spirit world and you could minister, minister to them as well. So maybe they were resurrected and they just went to the spirit world and continued their work. Like, again, resurrection isn't just you get resurrected and then you fly off into the sky and you're just happy forever. You're still doing things. Case in point, Moroni. Moroni has a lot of work to do. He's a resurrected person. Peter, James, and John, or at least Peter and James, John the Baptist, they're all doing work on behalf of God. Why can't they work in the spirit world? It seems like a resurrected person isn't cut off to that realm the same way a mortal person is. So I think I can solve that one a couple ways, and it's not given me major heartache. But it is interesting to juxtapose those two texts, one of which is received very early on in Joseph Smith's ministry. That's section 133. And this one, which is just about the latest word on the post mortal spirit world received in 1918. But I can see some easy ways to harmonize those things. Two teachings.

Scott (53:28)

And I'm also kind of. I'm thinking of how long some of those dead people had been anticipating their redemption from bondage of death. I can only imagine if there wasn't a twinge of disappointment when Jesus said, I would like some of you at least to stay dead a little longer so you can preach the gospel to the. The others. Then you'll get resurrected. Right. Maybe there was some of that going on. But you're saying also maybe he just resurrected them and resurrected people. People can minister to spirits in the spirit world.

Casey (53:55)

Yeah. Okay, I got another controversy for you. So this revelation seems to give hope to even those who have rejected the gospel in this life. In fact, I think it explicitly says that, doesn't it?

Scott (54:08)

Yeah, it does.

Casey (54:09)

How do you square that with the teachings in the Book of Mormon? I'm thinking specifically Amulek. This is Amulek in the Book of Mormon. He says, if you have procrastinated the day of your repentance, even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the Scripture, spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his. Therefore the spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you and the devil hath all power over you. And this is the final state of the wicked. So harmonize those, those two ideas.

Scott (54:34)

Yeah. Because his last line there is pretty final. Right. This is the final state of the wicked. No hope for those who don't repent before you die. But then 138 comes along and says there's hope for those who don't repent before they die. Great. Yeah. Is this a of kind contradiction? I don't think so. Here's why I think this was absolutely true when Amulek said it. Right. This is a bc this is a BC sermon. This is a. Before Jesus has even come to earth, let alone died and been resurrected. And so was there, was there a spirit world ministry? When Amulek said this, was there a chance for the, the wicked to repent after they died? There wasn't until Jesus set it up. Right. So this was totally true before Christ. Death and resurrection. Before, I should say before Christ's death, setting up the spirit world ministry and then resurrection. Amulek was spot on. But that doctrine became outdated the moment Jesus set up missionary work in the spirit world. Then there's now hope for those who'd rejected the prophets.

Casey (55:29)

So that's an elegant solution. Scott, well done. Well done. So if Amulek were to preach a sermon today, would he say, you can totally procrastinate the day of your repentance. Eat drinking, be merry and wait till you get to the spirit world? Like we still have a problem there, don't we? I could see wicked people sort of saying, yeah, under your system, I got time. I'm going to go drink and party and I'll fix it in the next life. I have heard people make that argument, but why is that not a good argument?

Scott (55:57)

Yeah, again, I'd say be careful because what Section138 says is that the principles of the gospel were preached to those who rejected the prophets and the ordinances are performed for them in order, here's the phrase, verse 34, in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. And I do think that means these are being taught to you in the spirit world. And the, and the, the ordinances are being done. Not to say so that you can just skip on over to the celestial kingdom, but it's to say so that you can be judged as if you had received these in the flesh. You can be judged like the, the same way according to the same standard as those who had received them. In this life. So your soul still needs to seek good things. Like, you need to be a good person and do the things good people would do and, and repent and say you're sorry and like, change your mind when you recognize you're doing things wrong and you're messing up relationships. Like, people who are sensitive to that and they want to do better and be better, I think they're going to be fine. I think it's the people who just kind of, you know, they just, they just live for themselves and they recognize relationships and they just, they're just trying to feed the emptiness inside them through carnal, sensual, and devilish things. Like, I think, I think that group is the one that's in danger. Like, I don't think you can just live that way. And then by an ordinance for the dead, you're totally skipping on your way to the celestial kingdom. I don't think Section138 says that. It doesn't say that you will for sure not make it to the celestial kingdom. It doesn't say that either. But it is giving hope for those who rejected the prophets to get another chance. But it's not like an automatic thing. Like, once you hear the gospel in the next life and get baptized, then you're good. Like, I don't know. Does that tension make sense?

Casey (57:34)

Is that the other Book of Mormon verse that comes to mind is the one that says that same spirit which doth possess your body at this time, you know, there's not going to be any radical change to your personality when you die. Section138 does present immense hope. I mean, he's talking about people from the days of Noah. It's possible not everybody then was as well informed or even had the chance to hear the gospel because the world they were being brought born into was just so depraved that God needed to hit the reset button, essentially. So, yeah, I think he made it work. Okay, one more. Is Shem Melchizedek because it calls him the great high priest here. 41 Noah who gave warning of the flood, Shem the great High priest. Abraham, the father of the faithful. So he skips Melchizedek there, but he calls Shem the Great High priest. There's this theory that the Melchizedek actually is Shem going by a different name. What do you think?

Scott (58:24)

I think Shem is Melchizedek. And the reason why is Melchizedek is a title, not a name. It means King of Righteousness. Book of Mormon gives the hint in Alma 13 that Melchizedek ruled under his father, who was the father of all of them. That fits perfectly with Noah. Right? Shem is the son of Noah. Shem was a great high priest. Melchizedek is the great high priest. We learn about Shem's earlier life, but not his later life. And Melchizedek we only meet as an adult. We know know nothing about his childhood. And so I think you can piece the puzzle together really nicely and say Shem is Melchizedek. Melchizedek is the title that Shem later acquired.

Casey (59:00)

I don't know. See, my pushback would be section 84, verse 14 is giving the lineage of the priesthood. And it says, speaking of the priesthood, which Abraham received the priesthood from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till Noah, which seems to create a little bit of a gap between Noah and Melchizedek, but doesn't close the door completely. I do like the idea that Shem is Melchizedek because most of the prophets in the Bible are descended from Shem. And it seems like he probably did some great things, but we don't have them recorded. On the other hand, this is a matter of life and death. If they're two separate people. I'm okay. Just be kind of cool.

Scott (59:38)

Yeah. And I think you can resolve verse 14 in section 84 were like this. Abraham received it from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his father, starting at Adam. Right. Adam. All the way down through the lineage of his fathers until Noah, who is his most immediate father. I think you could read it like that.

Casey (59:54)

Well played. All right, you've convinced me. I think Shema's Melchizedek now.

Scott (59:58)

There you go. Okay, well, let's talk consequences, Casey. So I think we've been talking consequences as we've gone along, but what would be your final words on, like the out outcomes of section 138.

Casey (60:13)

For this one, I do go back to this compelling historical context, right, where President Smith in the last part is talking about the noble and great ones sent to earth in the last days. That's verse 55. And then he says, I beheld the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their leaves, labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption. That's verse 57. Now, the easiest way to say, well, who are these faithful elders that he's talking about? Is to say, well, he's talking about Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Stone. But I also would like to think, and I might be wrong here, that he's talking about his son. The thing that had really broken him at this point was that his son was in the prime of his life, was a father of five children, children and just was gone like that. Appendicitis takes his life. One day he's here, the next day he's gone. And then to make things worse, his wife passes away eight months later, Ida passes away.

Scott (61:14)

Hiram Mack's wife, you're saying Hiram Mack's.

Casey (61:16)

Wife, Ida Bowman Smith, who dies just before this vision is received. So he does say the faithful elders. But I'd like to think that what he was describing there, and there's no way to know until we talk to President Smith, was his son and his daughter in law being called to the next life in order to carry out an incredible mission. And their family still impacts the church. Like I remember in 2018, M. Russell Ballard, who is their grandson, Hyrum and Ida commemorating the centennial of this vision, giving a talk in General Conference where he talked about what an amazing contribution this was to us doctrinally. So I'd like to think that that's what he's seeing. And I'd like to think that anybody who loses some, someone that is faithful in the church sees that as what their loved one is doing, that they're still carrying out their work, they're still fighting the forces of darkness. They're on the other side preaching the gospel to the people that didn't have a chance to hear it or that did and rejected it and bringing as many people unto Christ as they can. So this just really fills in a huge part of our plan of salvation. Chart right. And helps us understand what happens in the immediacy after we die and helps us understand how broad and exciting, expansive the work of salvation is. How important all these temples we're building are, that they're really the way we're going to save most of the human race. Missionary work is great and we will never stop doing it. But the work we do in temples is where Saviors on Mount Zion are created.

Scott (62:43)

Yeah, I remember reading Elder Maxwell wrote a book. I'm trying to remember which book it was. But in the book it's one of his last ones, he said the work of God in the spirit world, world is vast, vaster than most of us have ever stopped to ponder and think about. He said demographers estimate about 70 billion people have lived on this planet. And the majority of those 70 billion obviously are dead. And you think, you think about how many people are alive on the planet right now and how hard it is to do missionary work, to try to get the word out to everybody, magnify that however many fold, and you get the vastness of the work that is happening in the spirit world and the vastness of the work we're trying to do here to find all those people, get their names, get them to the temple, do the work vicariously for them to complete what should really be the second part of a two part process, right? The gospel is being preached to them and now they wait for us to do our piece vicariously to give them a chance to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like the vastness of it. I remember reading that from Elder Maxwell and trying to like picture and visualize like how massive, like 10x the size of Earth right now. Imagine that many people just. And trying to get the gospel to everybody. Like, it is vast. It is impressive. No wonder we're building so many temples all over the place, like 385. Is that the last count on how many are built, under construction or announced and counting? No end in sight to where this is headed because we need to get more people on this side, helping all the people on that side receive what Christ came to give them.

Casey (64:18)

One story real fast. I remember hearing about one of my old teachers, Joseph Fielding McConkie, who was a mission president in Scotland. And I can't remember which book of his this is in, but apparently his missionaries tracked it into this guy who was a major theologian who'd written like volumes and volumes. And the guy was just sort of offended that the missionaries even thought they could teach him and anything. And he came storming into the mission office and wanted to be with their president. And brother McConkie just basically said, sit down, I want to read you something. And he sat there and he read the entirety of section 138 to the guy. And afterwards he said, he closed the scripture, said, what do you think? And the guy looked at him and said something equivalent to, you know, for such a puny church, you have a pretty big theology, and walked out and this again is our way of saving the world. It's our way of bringing everybody unto Christ. Not just in a, hey, we hope that they make it wishy washy kind of way, but in a concrete way of saying the work of salvation continues on both sides of the veil. Great stuff.

Scott (65:20)

I love that. Well, as always, Casey, a pleasure to be with you. Fun to talk about all these. This ends what we call the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Coming up next week, we're going to talk about Official Declaration 1 and 2 and the articles of Faith. So stay tuned for that. That should be fun ride until then.

Casey (65:36)

All right, see you then.