Church History Matters – Episode 191: "Where is Truth: Theology or Science?"

Podcast: Church History Matters | Host: Scripture Central
Date: February 12, 2026
Series: Science & Religion Series (Part 7)
Hosts: Scott and Casey

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the historical tensions and evolving perspectives between science and religion—particularly among Latter-day Saints—using the evolution controversy as a case study. Scott and Casey explore foundational questions: Where do we find truth—through theology, science, or both? How does Church leadership decide (or not decide) issues where scriptural claims and scientific theories seem to collide? Through discussion of Church history, doctrinal statements, and the personal philosophies of significant leaders, the hosts illuminate why the evolution debate flared up repeatedly through the 20th century, and what principles members can use to discern official doctrine on complex issues.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Science vs. Religion and the Evolution Debate

• Historical Tension: Discussion opens on the historic discomfort between science and religion, especially as issues like evolution, the age of the earth, and biblical events like Noah's flood test the boundaries. (00:00–04:25)
• Complementary Epistemologies: Early Latter-day Saint leaders, including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, encouraged the pursuit of truth via both faith (theology) and study (science).
  • "God gave us the book of Scripture and the book of nature to find out truth." – Casey (00:02)

2. The Nature and Purpose of Scripture (04:25–07:26)

• Scripture as Theology, not Science: Scriptures are human-divine collaborations aimed at theological, not scientific, truths.
  • "When you assume Scripture is talking like a science textbook, you are pretty much guaranteed to misread Scripture." – Scott (00:06)
  • “It is our misinterpretation of the word of the Lord that leads us into trouble on these issues.” – Quote of Anthony W. Ivins via Scott (05:54)

3. Using the Right Tool for the Right Job (08:34–09:46)

• Scientific vs. Theological Questions: Use science for 'when', 'how', and 'how long', but theology for 'why' and 'what now'.
  • "Let's circumscribe it all together. Let's just make sure we're using the right tool for the right job." – Scott (09:09)
• Evolution as a Hot Topic: Evolution remains the most contentious overlap between science and Latter-day Saint theology.

4. The Church’s Official Position on Evolution (09:46–11:35)

• Neutrality: The Church holds no official position on evolution; it is “a matter for scientific study.”
  • "So our official position is that we don't have an official position." – Scott (10:16)
  • "We should definitely not use it [belief or disbelief in evolution] as a test of fellowship." – Scott (10:39)

5. Historical Trajectory: Early 20th Century Debates (11:35–18:59)

• Internal Church Disagreements:
  • Orson F. Whitney drafts an anti-evolution statement (12:03)
  • Scientists/apostles Talmage and Widtsoe revise to a neutral position (12:03–12:59, 13:51)
• Separation of Doctrine and Science: "Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research while we magnify our calling in the realm of the church." – First Presidency statement (15:31)
• National Influence: The Scopes "Monkey" Trial framed the national debate between fundamentalists (literalists) and modernists (contextualists).

6. Why Neutrality Shifted: Leadership and Cultural Dynamics (18:59–32:33)

• Rise of Fundamentalist Influence: Deaths of scientist-apostles (Talmage, Widtsoe, Merrill) and the increasing influence of Joseph Fielding Smith, who championed anti-evolutionist, scripturally literalist stances (19:38–29:33).
• Publication of "Man, His Origin and Destiny": Joseph Fielding Smith publishes his book which argues evolution undermines the doctrines of Creation, Fall, and Atonement—a move that sharpens the internal divide (31:31–34:16).

7. Authority, Doctrine, and the Role of Church Leaders (39:19–60:43)

• Key Question: When a church leader teaches, when should it be considered official doctrine or scripture? (39:19–53:27)
• J. Reuben Clark’s Seminal Talk: In his 1954 address, Clark teaches:
  • "You can only reliably tell when a church leader is moved upon by the Holy Ghost, when you personally are moved upon by the Holy Ghost, too." (54:32)
  • Only the President of the Church can declare binding doctrine for the whole Church.
  • Even Presidents and prophets are only “prophets when acting as such”—inspiration is not a mechanical switch (56:44–58:29)
  • Members are responsible for personal spiritual conviction and discernment.

8. The Lasting Result: Ongoing Messiness and Multiplicity of Voices (66:21–78:52)

• Proliferation of Literature: Books like Doctrines of Salvation (Joseph Fielding Smith) and Mormon Doctrine (Bruce R. McConkie) present strong opinions, sometimes taken as doctrine by members—though the Church maintains neutrality.
• Lesson for Members: Harmonized, scriptural principles and First Presidency statements are the best standard for doctrine, rather than cherry-picking from individual leaders or books.
  • "It's not a good idea just to pick one quote from a church leader and say that represents the doctrine of the church." – Scott (85:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On epistemology:
  “It's not so much a matter of, like, raw intelligence as it is, like, what assumptions you bring to the argument.” – Scott (01:32)
• On authority:
  “If someone other than the president of the church claims to reveal doctrine for the whole church... members can know something is off.” – Paraphrasing J. Reuben Clark (58:29)
• On personal discernment:
  "God didn't design this whole thing as a spectator sport. As members of the church, right, we need to be in tune with the Spirit so that we can tell when a church leader is speaking by the Spirit." – Scott (54:32)
• On interpreting Church history:
  "This is messy stuff, but it's interesting stuff for sure." – Casey (85:16)
• On humility and expertise:
  "He was wise enough to realize that he wasn't an authority in the subject of evolution, whereas he was a definite authority in subjects as geology that he knew well." (77:37, quoting Henry Eyring’s son)

Noteworthy Segments with Timestamps

• Science vs. Religion Framework (00:00–05:17)
• Scripture’s Purpose: Theology Not Science (06:00–07:26)
• Church's Official Stance on Evolution (09:46–11:35)
• The Scopes Trial & National Influences (13:51–15:31)
• Deaths of Science-Friendly Leaders & Shift to Fundamentalism (19:38–29:33)
• Publication of "Man, His Origin and Destiny" (31:31–34:16)
• Authority and Doctrine—J. Reuben Clark’s Principles (53:27–60:43)
• Rise of Popular but Non-Official Doctrine Books (66:21–68:32)
• Evolving Church Policy on Non-Scriptural Publications (68:32–72:44)
• Modern Parallels and Member Responsibility (74:45–86:52)
• Conclusions and Takeaways (85:29–86:52)

Overarching Themes

• Doctrine Formation is Complex and Ongoing: Differences of opinion and shifts in leadership have continually influenced what is taught and believed about science and evolution within the Church.
• Balance of Faith and Study: The Restoration encourages seeking truth via both scientific and theological inquiry—when both are properly understood and used.
• Discerning Truth: Ultimately, members are counseled to seek the Spirit individually, harmonize teachings with scripture and unified First Presidency statements, and be wary of taking any individual church leader’s statement (especially from non-official publications) as doctrine.

Closing Thoughts

The hosts emphasize that understanding the interplay between science and religion within Church history is not about drawing battle lines, but about appreciating the complexity, seeking informed and inspired discernment, and embracing truth from all sources. They urge members and teachers not to let secondary issues become tests of faith or fellowship and to stay anchored in essential doctrines confirmed by scriptural and prophetic consensus.

As these episodes approach more recent history (and even the hosts’ own experiences), the challenge of active, nuanced faith—and the ongoing quest for integrating “all truth”—remains more relevant than ever.