193 - Latest Research: Science & Scripture w/Ben Spackman | Church History Matters I Science & Religion Series - Church History Matters

Transcript

Ben Spackman (0:00)

Science and religion have always been the same. They have always been at war with each other. They always will be at war with each other, and science will triumph.

Casey (0:08)

Where do Latter Day Saints stand? Are we more modernists? Are we more fundamentalists? Quote by Heber J. Grant where he just said, we are fundamentalists.

Ben Spackman (0:17)

How do you make sense of received tradition when new, reliable information comes along?

Casey (0:24)

Some of those ideas, like eugenics, play out in the 20th century in very dangerous ways.

Scott (0:30)

You can't fault anyone for not knowing stuff that wasn't discovered yet.

Ben Spackman (0:33)

And by the 80s and 90s, church leaders saying, hold on. Our historians who are reliable are producing material that shows tradition is wrong about some of this stuff.

Casey (0:43)

When we read Scripture, we need to read it literarily rather than literally.

Scott (0:48)

I may disagree with this side or that side. This is complexity on display.

Ben Spackman (0:52)

This is the messiest part. I think this is one of the hardest parts for Latter Day Saints to be comfortable with because it gets us into church history. That doesn't seem inspired.

Scott (1:04)

Oh, hello, Casey.

Casey (1:08)

Hello, Scott. Nice to see you.

Scott (1:11)

You too, man. We are back in episode nine of our Science and Religion series, and I gotta say, this has been fun, Casey. This has been a real ride.

Casey (1:21)

Yeah. This is history that we don't get to talk about a lot. We spend so much time playing in the early restoration sandbox that we sometimes don't get into the 20th and the 21st centuries. And there's some really, really fascinating history in those realms, too. This is top for me, where we're talking about sincere church leaders who have different differing opinions and how they kind of go back and forth to assert what they believe is the right thing to do.

Scott (1:51)

Yeah. And. And today's a special treat because we have. I mean, all throughout this series, we've been quoting a guy over and over again, his good work, his dissertation work. His name is Ben Spackman, and he is actually with us today. Say hi, Ben.

Summary

Church History Matters: Science & Scripture w/Ben Spackman

Episode 193 (Science & Religion Series Ep. 9), Feb 24, 2026

Overview of Episode

In this rich and deeply engaging episode, hosts Scott and Casey welcome scholar Ben Spackman to discuss the latest research at the intersection of science and scripture, particularly within Latter-day Saint history. The conversation explores 20th-century debates over evolution and creationism among LDS leaders, the development of church doctrine, the changing meaning of terms like "fundamentalism," and how modern scholarship recasts our understanding of both science and faith. Spackman, whose dissertation has influenced prior episodes, brings unique historical and scriptural expertise, shedding light on why these debates remain relevant for believers seeking to faithfully navigate complex church history.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Study Science, Religion, and LDS History?

Spackman's Entry into the Field:
- Began answering hard science-and-scripture questions from Latter-day Saint graduate students in science-heavy fields, revealing a lack of nuanced resources (06:55–10:16).
- Found that most prior LDS literature was either poorly researched or overly polemical.
- Established the need for historically and scripturally informed conversations about Genesis, evolution, and LDS tradition.

Defining Fundamentalism and Modernism in LDS Context

Historical Definitions:
- “Fundamentalist” originally a Christian movement (1920s), centered on defending "fundamentals" like Christ’s divinity, miracles, and (for others) biblical inerrancy. (11:47–13:53)
- “Modernists” responded to new scientific and archaeological discoveries by focusing more on social gospel, sometimes questioning divinity of Jesus.
- Latter-day Saints aligned with fundamentalism in the early 20th century, except for scriptural inerrancy.
Meaning Evolved Over Time:
- By the 1960s, “fundamentalist” was equated more with anti-evolution and young-earth creationism.

Where Did Latter-day Saints Fit?

A Spectrum, Not a Monolith:
- LDS views were/are complex and internally diverse, often more nuanced than other denominations (14:39–16:15).
- While early leaders called themselves “fundamentalists,” their openness to new discoveries and nuances with inerrancy set them apart.

Key Personalities and Debates in LDS Science/Religion

Joseph Fielding Smith:
- Advocated for scriptural inerrancy and face-value literalism, seeing any divergence (like death before the Fall, or pre-Adamite humans) as undermining the atonement. (17:26–18:20)
B.H. Roberts, James E. Talmage, John A. Widtsoe:
- Also believed God revealed truth in scripture, but saw it as accommodated to ancient understanding—open to interpreting scripture through the lens of modern science. (18:28–19:50)
LDS Internal Conflict:
- Debates (Roberts/Talmage/Widtsoe vs. Joseph Fielding Smith) were often rooted in underlying assumptions about the nature of scripture and science, rather than just the scientific facts. (16:27–17:15)

Historical Milestones in LDS Evolution Doctrine

1909 First Presidency Statement:
- Prompted by questions from BYU, originally drafted as adamantly anti-evolution, but later softened after input from Talmage and Widtsoe—more moderate, focusing on divine parentage of mankind. (22:29–27:57)
20th-Century Shifts:
- Church's position fluctuates according to personalities and generational changes among apostles (34:25–38:10).
- After the deaths of scientist-apostles, J.F. Smith’s views gained dominance, culminating in publication and institutional adoption of "Man, His Origin and Destiny."
- President McKay and later leaders often pushed back privately against this hardline stance, resulting in public ambiguity but private diversity of opinion (39:03–41:00).

Revelation and Prophetic Fallibility

Apostolic Disagreements Are Not Apostasy:
- The robust discussion and even argument among LDS leaders should be seen as evidence of a healthy, revelatory “counsel” process, not lack of inspiration (44:20–46:08).
- "Prophets are primarily human whom God inspires and touches. They are not primarily avatars of God whose humanity occasionally causes mistakes." (43:39–44:08, Ben Spackman)
Revelation as Collective, Iterative:
- Sometimes comes by direct “download,” but often through wrestling, discussion, and even disagreement, per D. Todd Christofferson and Henry B. Eyring’s teachings. (45:47–46:08)

A Shift Toward Moderation

Ending the Era of Dogma on Creation:
- By late 20th century, with leadership transitions and increased academic sophistication at BYU, the church moved toward officially approving more neutral statements (e.g., 1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on evolution, apparently penned by Gordon B. Hinckley) (54:36–59:43).
- Packet of official statements produced, emphasizing the church has no official position on organic evolution, apart from affirming Adam and Eve as Divine creations. (59:53–61:39)

Modern Approaches: Science, Scholarship, and Discipleship

Diversity of Belief Allowed:
- Today, both evolution-accepting and -skeptical members have space at church, provided they're not exclusionary or dogmatic (66:44–70:37).
- Losing this diversity can harm faith—insistence that science and faith cannot mix (a la Joseph Fielding Smith) sometimes pushes believers out when science looms large in their lives.
Scripture: Read Literarily, Not Just Literally:
- Ancient texts speak to their own cultures; literalism ignores context. Take scripture on its original terms (71:33–73:51).
- “It is reading scripture literally. That means in context, as the author intended. And that means we have to recover those contexts that went without being said.” (71:33–73:51, Ben Spackman)
Best OT Study Advice:
- Use modern church materials (Come, Follow Me, etc.).
- Supplement with several translations and good study Bibles (Jewish Study Bible, SBL, Robert Alter). (77:36–79:54)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Concerning Fundamentalism:
- "By the 1920s that's shifting...1920s is when fundamentalist starts becoming kind of anti evolution and a much more popular, less intellectual movement...So I didn't actually use it in my dissertation much except when other people used it."
  — Ben Spackman (13:36)
On Prophet Fallibility:
- "Prophets are primarily human whom God inspires and touches. They are not primarily avatars of God whose humanity occasionally causes mistakes." — Ben Spackman (43:39)
On LDS Diversity:
- "It's really not fair to say someone like Joseph Fielding Smith was anti science. He's trying to find scientists that line up with his views and use them as evidence."
  — Casey (17:15)
On Modern Scriptural Scholarship:
- "Our understanding of the Old Testament, thanks to discoveries since 1947, has been radically changed.... It changed the context, it's changed our understanding of the language." — Ben Spackman (20:20)
On Encouraging Scholarship:
- "President Nelson vocalized as they were seeking the best information possible and then making their decisions based on that and inspiration."
  — Ben Spackman (30:10)
On Room for Diversity:
- “[There is] room for people to coexist and get along.” — Ben Spackman (70:37)
On Reading Scripture:
- “When we read Scripture, we need to read it literarily rather than literally.” — Casey (72:58)
On Scholarship as Worship:
- “To a disciple of Christ, academic study is a form of worship.” — Ben Spackman (82:35)

Important Timestamps for Segments

00:00–06:55: Scene-setting, prominence of science & religion debates, intro to Ben Spackman.
11:47–15:48: Detailed definitions and historical meanings of fundamentalism/modernism.
17:15–22:29: Underlying assumptions of scripture/science among apostles; science changes since the 1940s.
22:29–30:44: Genesis of the 1909 statement and evolution's wider threat (eugenics, Social Darwinism).
34:21–43:35: Mid-20th-century resurgence of anti-evolution sentiment; institutional and cultural factors.
43:39–46:08: How to handle apostolic disagreement and maintain faithful complexity.
54:36–59:43: Encyclopedia of Mormonism’s "evolution" article and church position shifts.
66:44–70:37: Church’s current neutral position on evolution; dangers of dogmatism.
71:27–74:41: Reading scripture literarily; using multiple translations for richer understanding.
77:36–80:18: Top tips for fruitful Old Testament study.
80:19–83:54: How scholarship strengthens testimony and connection to the Restoration.

Notable, Faith-Promoting Takeaways

Latter-day Saint history includes a wide array of perspectives on science and evolution, even among apostles and Prophets.
The process of revelation is messy, participatory, and deeply human—diversity of thought is not just tolerated but essential.
Faithful members can and should use scholarly tools and historical context to deepen their understanding, rather than fear “complexity.”
Academic study and discipleship are not mutually exclusive; wrestling with the “messiness” can actually help maintain faith.
With Church leadership’s embrace of good information, today’s Saints have resources and “space” to explore scientific questions without fear of apostasy.

Further Resources Mentioned

Ben Spackman’s dissertation: “The Scientist is Wrong”: Joseph Fielding Smith, George MacCready Price, and the Ascent of Creationist Thought among Latter-day Saints in the 20th Century.
1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism “Evolution” article (ghostwritten by President Hinckley).
BYU’s "official statements" packet on evolution (with 1909, 1925, 1931, and EoM articles).

"Understanding the historical diversity of thought opens up space for us to explore different things from a place of faith and safety..."
—Ben Spackman (85:18)

This episode offers a masterclass in the navigation of science, scripture, history, and living faithfully amidst complexity. It is essential listening for any Latter-day Saint (or anyone else!) trying to reconcile scholarly inquiry and discipleship.