Podcast Summary: Circo Massimo – Lo spettacolo della politica

Episode: "Dragone e la guerra: parli la diplomazia, non i generali"

Host: Massimo Giannini
Date: December 2, 2025
Podcast Platform: OnePodcast

Overview

In this episode, Massimo Giannini confronts the precarious state of the Russia–Ukraine conflict in the context of recent diplomatic and military developments. Central to the discussion is a provocative statement by General Giuseppe Cavo Dragone, NATO Military Committee Chairman, about possible preemptive NATO actions against Russia. Giannini reflects on the dangerous escalation in both language and action, emphasizing the urgent need for diplomacy rather than militaristic rhetoric.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Parallels and the Dilemma Facing Ukraine

• Giannini opens by recalling Winston Churchill’s 1938 warning:

  “Potevate scegliere tra il disonore e la guerra. Avete scelto il disonore e avrete la guerra.” (00:41)

• He draws a parallel between the appeasement policy before WWII and the current predicament faced by Ukraine and its allies.
• Zelensky’s recent words echo Churchill, signaling the existential dilemma for Ukraine—either cede dignity or risk losing key partnerships (notably the US).

2. Transatlantic Divide: Optimism vs. Realism

• While the US projects optimism about peace talks in Florida (the "piano americano in 20 punti"), Russia continues its assault on Ukrainian cities.
• “Il Cremlino annuncia ‘abbiamo conquistato Pokrovsk e Volchansk’.” (02:04)
• European leaders retain a more skeptical, realistic stance:
  • Macron and Zelensky jointly affirm Europe must not capitulate to Russian demands.
  • German leaders voice concern over the blurring line:

    “Non siamo in guerra ma ormai non siamo neanche più in pace.” (Chancellor Merz, approx. 03:00)

• The specter of a formal return to conscription is rising in France, Germany, and Italy.

3. The Cavo Dragone Controversy: “Attacco Preventivo”

• General Giuseppe Cavo Dragone, in a Financial Times interview, claims NATO is considering more “aggressive” and “proactive” stances, including possible preemptive cyber or hybrid operations:

  • “Essere più aggressivi o proattivi invece che reattivi è qualcosa a cui stiamo pensando.” (04:30)

• His emphasis is on hybrid (e.g., cyber) conflicts, but the political undertones are unmistakable.
• Giannini warns that such declarations from military leaders can be reckless at a highly sensitive moment:

  “C’è da chiedersi a chi giova che il generale... se ne esca con una frase del genere.” (06:39)

4. Immediate Reactions and Escalatory Risk

• Russian Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Maria Zakharova brands Cavo Dragone’s comments “estremamente irresponsabile… un passo verso l’escalation.” (07:17)
• Giannini stresses that the point is not to echo pro-Russian positions but to caution against inflamed rhetoric on all sides.

5. The Call for Diplomacy

• The episode’s core thesis: military commanders should be silent unless prompted by political leadership—especially during delicate negotiations.

• “Devono parlare la democrazia, deve parlare la diplomazia. E devono tacere i generali.” (07:58)

• Warning against the normalization of militaristic language and thinking in public debate.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Winston Churchill (quoted):

  “Potevate scegliere tra il disonore e la guerra. Avete scelto il disonore e avrete la guerra.” (00:41)

• Giannini:

  “Siamo davvero sul piano inclinato di una guerra.” (04:10)

• Chancellor Merz (paraphrased):

  “Non siamo in guerra ma ormai non siamo neanche più in pace.” (03:00)

• General Cavo Dragone:

  “L’idea di un’aggressione nei confronti della Russia è una opzione che in sede Nato si starebbe valutando.” (05:00)

• Giannini:

  “In un momento come questo c’è da chiedersi a chi giova che il generale... se ne esca con una frase del genere.” (06:39)

• Maria Zakharova (Russian MFA):

  “Dichiarazione... un passo estremamente irresponsabile, che dimostra la volontà dell’Alleanza di continuare a muoversi verso un’escalation.” (07:17)

• Giannini:

  “Devono tacere i generali. I generali si devono esprimere soltanto se richiesti dalla politica.” (07:58)

• Conclusion:

  “Bisogna impedire, e l’Europa deve e può farlo, che si avveri la terribile profezia di Winston Churchill.” (08:48)

Important Timestamps

• 00:41 – 02:04: Introduction and Churchill analogy; current war context.
• 02:05 – 05:10: US-European diplomatic split; European military tensions and responses.
• 05:10 – 07:17: General Cavo Dragone’s remarks and the hybrid war debate.
• 07:18 – 08:48: International reactions, Giannini’s warning against escalation, and the primacy of diplomacy.

Tone & Style

Giannini deploys a sober, urgent tone tinged with historical resonance and subtle irony—typical of his editorial commentary. His language is clear, direct, and occasionally vivid (“nana trazzoppata,” “pioggia martellante e devastante”).

Conclusion

This episode delivers a thought-provoking critique of bellicose rhetoric amid a fraught international crisis. Giannini asserts that even as hybrid war and preemptive action become tempting talking points, the responsibility of leaders is first and foremost to “let diplomacy speak, not generals.” The chilling echo of appeasement history hangs throughout, urging careful, democratic decision-making on the knife-edge of war.