Circo Massimo – Lo spettacolo della politica

Episode: Meloni, Salvini e la guerra: un fanta-thriller alla Dan Brown
Date: December 4, 2025
Host/Commentator: Massimo Giannini

Overview:

In this episode, Massimo Giannini crafts a sharp, narrative-driven analysis of the Italian government’s conflicting positions on support for Ukraine in the ongoing war, using the metaphor of Dan Brown’s latest thriller, "L’ultimo segreto", to draw parallels between the dual personalities within Italy’s executive: Giorgia Meloni and Matteo Salvini. Giannini unpacks the tensions, statements, and contradictions surrounding the upcoming renewal of military aid to Ukraine, the internal fractures in the ruling coalition, and the implications on Italy’s international credibility.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Dan Brown Metaphor: Two Personalities, One Government

• Giannini opens with Dan Brown’s "L’ultimo segreto", highlighting its protagonist who embodies dual personalities—Sasha (a woman) and Dimitri (a Russian man).
• He likens this duality to the current Italian government, where Meloni (the woman) and Salvini (the man) represent starkly different foreign policy stances inside the same executive body.
  • [01:03] “In questo fanta-thriller c'è un personaggio, un protagonista, che all'interno di uno stesso corpo contiene tuttavia due personalità differenti. Una è una donna e si chiama Sasha. L'altro è un uomo e si chiama Dimitri, un russo. Viene in mente questo protagonista piuttosto anomalo… pensando a quello che sta succedendo al governo italiano…” —Massimo Giannini

2. Meloni’s Position: Firm Commitment to Ukraine

• Giannini plays a clip of Giorgia Meloni, freshly returned from Bahrain, confirming that despite delays, the Italian government will renew aid to Ukraine and support its civilian population—especially through providing generators as winter approaches.

  • [02:16] Meloni asserts:
    • The decree to renew military and humanitarian aid is forthcoming;
    • Italy’s commitment is for peace, but as long as war persists, support for Ukraine remains;
    • The government is aware of the humanitarian urgency touched upon in meetings with Zelensky.
  • [03:14] “Meloni assume in questo caso una posizione assolutamente corretta... ribadisce che è per la pace, l’Italia lavora perché si raggiunga un cessato il fuoco...” —Massimo Giannini

• On handling recent NATO tensions (following Admiral Cavo Dragone’s comments about possible preemptive actions against Russia), Meloni advocates for careful communication while clarifying that Cavo Dragone was actually talking about cyber security.

  • [03:14] “Una volta tanto Meloni dice la cosa giusta... è una fase in cui bisogna misurare molto bene le parole… bisogna evitare di dire qualunque cosa che possa far surriscaldare gli animi.” —Giannini paraphrasing Meloni

3. Salvini’s Narrative: Rapprochement with Russia

• Giannini introduces Salvini as the “Dimitri Russo” of the coalition—voicing a stance that contrasts with Meloni’s. Salvini expresses hope to soon reestablish flights and dialogue between Italy, Kiev, and Moscow, and calls for reopening commerce with Russia.

  • [05:30] “Spero tra qualche mese, non anni, di poter tornare a volare su Kiev e Mosca da Roma e Milano... spero al più presto di poter riaprire i commerci e il dialogo con un paese con cui non siamo in guerra...” —Matteo Salvini
  • He stresses that Italy has no interest in new conflicts but wants to rebuild bridges with Russia.

• Massimiliano Romeo, Lega’s leader in the Senate, doubles down by calling for a suspension of the aid decree during ongoing negotiations, referencing US Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s attempts at negotiations.

  • [06:50] “Chiediamo di rinviare e di sospendere l’approvazione del decreto legge con il quale l’Italia rinnova il suo supporto militare a Zelensky…” —Massimiliano Romeo

4. The Internal Fracture: Coalition Doublespeak

• Giannini argues that Meloni and Salvini’s “dual personality” dynamic reveals ongoing internal conflict, not simply procedural delays, as the reason for the recent postponement of the Ukraine aid decree.
  • He underlines the contradiction between Meloni’s outwardly pro-Atlantic, pro-Ukraine posture and Salvini’s pro-dialogue-with-Russia stance—reflecting deeper coalitional fissures.
  • [08:08] “L’Italia ha una linea ambigua. L’Italia anzi ha due linee all’interno di un unico corpo, il governo del paese, per l’appunto.” —Massimo Giannini

5. The US and International Context

• The episode situates Italy’s government turmoil in the swirling context of a failing US-led peace initiative (with Mark Rubio as Secretary of State) and a desperate Zelensky beset by scandal and losses in the Donbass.
  • [08:18] “Le trattative si interrompono perché, come ha detto lo sceriffo di Washington, la situazione è maledettamente incasinata. E proprio nel momento in cui Zelensky vive la sua ora più buia... ecco, l’Italia ha una linea ambigua…” —Massimo Giannini

6. Is Synthesis Possible? Dan Brown’s (Fictional) Solution vs. Political Reality

• Giannini closes with a wry comparison: in Dan Brown’s novel, the dual personalities eventually achieve an uneasy unity within their shared body—but doubts that such “synthesis” is possible or virtuous in a democracy like Italy.
  • [09:38] “Nell’ultimo segreto di Dan Brown, Sasha e Dimitri alla fine si riuniscono. Restano sempre in due in un corpo solo, ma alla fine riescono a tenere in piedi una sintesi più o meno virtuosa. In un fantatriller può funzionare, in un governo di una grande democrazia europea molto meno.” —Massimo Giannini

Quotes & Notable Moments (with Timestamps)

• [01:03]

  “Pensando a quello che sta succedendo al governo italiano... oggi abbiamo in uno stesso corpo, il governo del Paese, due personalità diverse. Una è una donna e si chiama Giorgia Meloni, l’altra è un uomo e si chiama Matteo Salvini.”
  —Massimo Giannini

• [02:16]

  “Finché ci sarà una guerra faremo quello che possiamo fare come abbiamo sempre fatto per aiutare l'Ucraina a difendersi... ci stiamo dedicando per esempio anche a questo elemento per aiutare la popolazione civile.”
  —Giorgia Meloni

• [05:44]

  “Io spero al più presto di poter riaprire i commerci e il dialogo con un paese con cui non siamo in guerra... l’Italia non ha interesse ad aprire conflitti, ma a riaprire ponti, magari prima di altri.”
  —Matteo Salvini

• [08:08]

  “L’Italia ha una linea ambigua. L’Italia anzi ha due linee all’interno di un unico corpo, il governo del paese, per l’appunto.”
  —Massimo Giannini

• [09:38]

  “In un fantatriller può funzionare, in un governo di una grande democrazia europea molto meno.”
  —Massimo Giannini

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [01:03–02:11] – Introduction of the Dan Brown metaphor, setting the stage for the duality in government.
• [02:16–03:14] – Giorgia Meloni’s official position and statements on Ukraine aid.
• [03:14–05:44] – Analysis of Meloni’s approach and recent controversies.
• [05:44–06:50] – Salvini and Romeo’s contrasting statements and the Lega’s position.
• [07:00–08:08] – Exploration of coalition tension and internal government contradictions.
• [08:08–09:38] – Discussion of broader geopolitical context, failure of negotiations, and Italy’s ambiguous line.
• [09:38–End] – Reflection on fiction-versus-reality and the risks of such political “dualism.”

Tone and Style

• Engaged, sharp, and laced with irony: Giannini blends literary analogy and political insight, highlighting both the theatricality and the seriousness of Italian government tensions.
• The commentary is straightforward yet cutting, neither mincing words nor shying from naming contradictions.

Conclusion

Giannini delivers a vivid, accessible exploration of the Italian government’s split personality on international policy, merging fiction and political reality. The episode leaves listeners questioning whether such “synthesis” can survive the real pressures of European governance—and what cost Italy might pay for its ambiguity on the world stage.