A (4:06)

That events would lead you, you know, during that campaign to do that, you became familiar with it. And then you went on to make this documentary, which is just. I covered Covid. I wrote about it a lot during the pandemic for City Journal, but I still found this documentary really. So, I mean, I learned things from it. You uncovered new things. And you also just showed human cost of this so vividly in the documentary. Seeing these students, you know, what they were going through, that they weren't learning anything, they were so unhappy. And it just showed things that got ignored. For instance, you've got an athlete in there who talks about the impact on what this did for student athletes.

B (4:42)

Student athletes, especially in places like New York City, were really just completely forgotten. And we had rallies begging the city to let them play. That was the hashtag, let them play. I think that was a national slogan that was being used because all of these public school athletes couldn't go back to sports. And sports weren't just, you know, games for them. First of all, coaches are mentors. They are like father figures to these boys, especially who play team sports. But beyond that, that is where they find their socialization, their routines. In order to participate in public school sports, you need to. Or back then, I'm not sure if you still have those standards, but back then, you needed a certain gpa, grade point average, and you also needed to maintain excell, excellent attendance. So it really was like a guardrail for these young people. And when they took away sports, that really kind of took away many of these young people's desire to even be in schools, because that's why they came there in the first place. And furthermore, many of these children are being scouted for scholarships, for college scholarships in their junior years, and all the juniors who didn't play sports that year lost those opportunities.

A (5:58)

One of the haunting images in the documentary is this on playgrounds where they removed the basketball hoops, you know, outdoor playgrounds. And you got wonderful footage of the legendary basketball coach from Cardozo High School who was trying to go out with his students and what happened when he tried to help his players.

B (6:18)

Yeah, Ron Niclario was a character I was completely unfamiliar with. He has been at Cardozo High School for decades. He is the winningest basket high school basketball coach, I think, in the country and has been inducted into the hall of Fame. His life is his kids and his sport. And he showed up at our very first rally and was so passionate about how important sports were for their kids, both in terms of movement, athletics, energetics, you know, mental acumen, but also just for that, you know, family and mentorship aspect. And he saw very early on how dangerous it would be to have these children pushed from schools and from sports and onto the streets because there was nothing happening for them. As you said, the hoops were removed from the basketball fields. Like kids couldn't even play sports outside of school. I don't know what we were thinking we would do to them. But, you know, Ron Eclario saw very clearly that this was going to be bad for kids, and he was right. Right.

A (7:23)

And you show that so beautifully in it. Now, aside from just showing these very moving scenes of parents and kids affected by this, you also chronicle how this disaster happened, you know, these supposed experts who led us down this path. And what's probably important, what most people still don't realize, is that before the pandemic, you know, there was a plan by the CDC that it was based on, you know, serious analysis of science that did, that had rejected. They said, even if we have a pandemic as bad as the Spanish flu of 1918, even if it's that deadly, we still should not. They rejected the idea of locking down businesses, closing schools, you know, telling the public to wear masks because there was no evidence that they would, that these measures would make any difference. And now you show in this, and you talk to some of the people who spoke out early against us, like Jay Bhattacharya, And Scott Atlas, who very early in the pandemic were saying that these measures, that the response to the pandemic is going to be worse than the virus itself.

B (8:24)

These doctors spoke out, not even realizing what would befall them afterwards. Scott Atlas knew what the pandemic playbook really said. Focused protection has never been a radical idea. It was what was practiced before. We also interviewed Monica Gandhi, who is an AIDS researcher, HIV and AIDS researcher at ucsf. And she talked about how even during the Spanish flu, when children were adversely impacted by the virus, progressive school districts did not shut down. They kept schools open because they understood that even in light of this very, very terrible Spanish flu virus, children.

A (9:09)

That actually was dangerous to children and young people, unlike this one.

B (9:13)

Exactly. But it was more dangerous for children to be outside of school buildings without teachers who are mandated reporters if they see something's wrong, without nutrition, without socialization, without their teachers, it was dangerous to lock kids out of school buildings. This time we conveniently forgot that.

A (9:32)

And I had not been aware of that. And it's such an interesting flip that the progressives, other cities did lock down or did close schools and do some measures. And not that much, but my understanding. But the progressive cities like New York, as you say, they stayed open and now, yet this time it became the progressive mantra. You know, we've got to stay shut. We've got to follow the science. Why did it happen this time? That's a big question. What did you find in talking to all these officials about, you know, why this happened? Why suddenly progressives, you know, rallied behind the idea of these really authoritary, these unprecedented restrictions of liberty? Why do progressives suddenly embrace this?

B (10:09)

The simple answer is the outsized power of the teachers unions. The teachers unions are some of the largest donors to the Democratic Party. They gain a lot of their funds through teacher dues. I would argue that they don't really represent the teachers. They're really political machines that, that are in power, both controlling politics, but also developing and indoctrinating future generations of minds and really trying to create this society. I think many of us don't want to live in, quite honestly. So I think they saw a crisis. As a founder of a nonprofit, I can tell you that the best time to fundraise is during a crisis. And they saw a crisis and they used the crisis to raise so much money. I think our last count was about $189.5 billion. Federal bailout over the Trump, the first Trump and Biden administration to reopen the schools, but also through the other NGOs with whom they partnered with. And that was really eye opening, discovering very, very early zoom calls that the teachers unions were having with progressive NGOs like environmental groups, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, other such groups, and also Jane Fonda. And how they really kind of saw this as an opportunity to reimagine society. That's pretty much what Randy Weingarten said in a March 2020 Zoom call that we uncovered.

A (11:43)

Yeah, there is this great footage in this of that going on. And one really arresting scene. You've got the zoom call, you've got all these faces on the screen of all these environmentalists. And I think Jane, you know, you've got Jane Fonda, you've got the teachers union, and they're all just so excited at the idea that now that they can get their vision of America, this is a crisis that they can exploit. And Jane Fonda's in her infamous words, that Covid was God's gift to the left. It's really. I mean, it's great footage that you have to show how that happened. And all these NGOs and unions working together to do it. And just the money that was involved, it was quite incredible.

B (12:26)

There was an interesting hidden camera interview with a former Biden staffer who used to manage some of the NGO disbursements a few months ago. I think it was Project Veritas that did this. They were asking what was the plan by the Biden administration after the results of the 2024 election when they knew Trump was taking office. And he talked about the fact that they were giving as much money as they could away to these progressive NGOs as quickly as they could because they knew Trump would turn the T off. And I think his quote was, it was like throwing gold bars off the Titanic. And, and I think that's. That pretty much summarizes the whole thing.

A (13:07)

It does. And that, I mean, it's scary because, you know, for instance, at Davos, at the, at the World Economic Forum, they were talking about the, you know, this was a paradigm, the response to Covid was a paradigm for how to deal with climate change. And, and, you know, even at the start of the pandemic, Anthony Fauci said, when China locked down, Fauci said, well, I can't imagine Americans would ever submit to that. And yet they did. It was wonderfully encouraging for these people who just want large scale progressive changes in society. You said that at the start of the pandemic, you were a progressive Democrat, Is that right?

B (13:44)

Yes. I was, I had voted for Obama twice. I even voted for Biden in 2020 because he claimed to prioritize reopening schools. And by then I really had become single issue voter. But yes, I was incredibly progressive to the point where I did believe that there was such a thing as institutionalized racism. I mean, I'm a New Yorker. I went to NYU undergrad, I went to NYU for grad school, I worked at the film school for several years. I've always been entrenched in the arts community, so by and large I, you know, I swam with my flock, you know, or my school of fish, you know, in the stream. I wasn't really anti establishment on any level, but when I saw what was happening, it was extremely eye opening. I really, you know, I didn't know what to make of it. At first. I was, you know, calling the local electeds, trying to get them to come to our rallies. Well, they wouldn't show up. I, you know, I tried to send them evidence research from, you know, other countries, but nothing, nothing was welcome. And I was like, what is going on here? What is happening with my party? I mean, look, I didn't even wake up when BLM happened. When BLM happened. I kind of just justified it. I know there are people that we interviewed for who are like, well, you know, they, they wouldn't let kids gather in classrooms in large groups, but then they encouraged everybody to go outside together and protest. That did not ring any bells for me, even as, you know, as a, as a critical thinker, because I was like, well, they're outside and it's institutional racism, so they have to do something. So, yes, I've, I've definitely gone through quite an awakening. I am still registered a Democrat because it doesn't make sense in New York City to be registered as a Republican and, and not vote in primaries, remain a registered Democrat. But at this point, I, I am really homeless.

A (15:33)

We were at a screening of the documentary with a lot of other people who, you know, who were progressives or had been progressives at least. And suddenly seeing this for you, especially Natalia, you said that you had, had immigrated to the United States when you were six, right? From.

B (15:46)

Yes, yeah, from the Soviet Union.

A (15:49)

And, and so you had seen authoritarianism firsthand.

B (15:52)

I had, I had heard about it more than seen it. My parents talked about it, but I tried to disassociate myself. I said, you know, that that was then, this is now. It can't happen again. Never experienced it. Those are stories of the home, you know, of the Old school.

A (16:06)

Well, this really, I mean, the documentary, besides showing, you know, the bad science behind it, besides showing the impact, you know, talks about the censorship that went on. You know, we at City Journal here, I did an article about the harms of masks to children, which are just obvious, of course, in the United States, I think, was one of the few, if not the only country that was masking toddlers. It was so barbaric to do that. I mean, Europe didn't do that. You know, in Europe, as you point out in the documentary, was, you know, they opened the schools much earlier and they didn't make young people wear masks. And some places like Sweden, you know, they advise everyone not to wear a mask because they correctly realized that this was not going to be effective. But at City Journal, one of my articles, it was labeled by these supposed, you know, quote, fact checkers at for Facebook is partly false. And, you know, we had a big drop and we challenged it and there was nothing. Everything in the article was accurate. But they just, you know, disagreed and they cited a group that's also in your documentary, the American Academy of Pediatrics, which has basically been taken over by left wing activists. And why don't you tell us what you showed about what happened to them during the pandemic?

B (17:18)

Yeah, well, originally the American Academy of Pediatrics said that we should reopen schools and that children needed to be learning in person. But after that announcement, they were, I guess, fronted by the teachers unions and they reversed course. And I think, I believe this was right after President Trump said, I think in July 2020, we must reopen schools. So reflexively immediately, the unions pushed back and said, no, no, no, you know, it's not safe. So the American Academy of Pediatrics showed that it was completely compromised by progressive activists in the form of the teachers unions. And so schools did not reopen in many parts of the country. In some parts it did. And that's the thing. In this country, it was really inconsistent. I've spoken to people in Georgia, in Florida, in other red areas, where things went back close to normal in the fall of 2020. Yes, they did lose a few months, you know, in the spring of 2020. But I think many of us were willing to, to give those months away to, to try to figure out how dangerous this really was. Most parents were not organizing in the spring of 2020. Many parts of the country did go back to normal. Places like California didn't go back to normal for almost two years. And guess what? You know, you were talking about masking. I just heard that Claremont, California, Is it Claremont, Northern California? I believe it's Claremont, but I might be. I think Claremont's actually la. It's Santa Clara Valley. Santa Clara Valley, California still has a mask mandate in the wintertime. It's still going on.

A (18:58)

For the public or for students, you.

B (18:59)

Mean for the public. I'm not sure what the rules are for students. I wonder if that's also being held up in schools, if it's for the public. I need to get some more details, but I just got an email the other day where it was like, can you believe that we still have a mask mandate and the same health commissioner.

A (19:17)

You know, maskaholics, as I called them, in one city journal article. Well, you know, this was such a disaster. I mean, the social, economic cost, the infringements on liberty were just unprecedented. And of course, the people responsible for it prefer not to talk about it at all. Or if they do, they say, well, we did the best we could, knowing. And. And it's really. I'm just so heartened that this documentary is there to remind people of, to show people. No, it was very clear early in the pandemic, and it was clear before the pandemic what the right response would be. And it was clear early that this virus was not a risk to young, was very little risk to young people. And you show so well these groups that were responsible for, you know, for terrifying the public and for imposing these terrible policies. It's so important, I think, that people be reminded of that, that we not let, you know, let these mistakes be forgotten. And as you point out in the documentary, the groups that were responsible for this are still in power. There's been some changes in Washington. J. Bhattacharya, who is in the documentary, he's now in charge of NIH and he is changing pandemic policy. But we still have these unions, this public health establishment that is still so politicized and so anti science in so many ways. And, and so I really congratulate you on doing the documentary and I hope that lots of people see it. How can people see this? They can go to 15daysfilm.com, is that right?

B (20:46)

Yes, you can go to 15daysfilm.com and our ways of viewing it are constantly updating. So you can at least order the DVD or watch it for free on X. And at some point in the very near future, it will be streaming on the major channels, but we'll put everything up on 15daysfilm.com.

A (21:04)

Well, once again, the title of it is 15 Days. And you can find it by going to just one word. 15 days. Film. Natalia, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for making this documentary, and I hope that lots of our listeners watch it.

B (21:19)

Thank you so much for having me.

A (21:20)

I'm John Tierney for City Journal, and thank you for listening. Thanks for joining us for the weekly 10 Blocks podcast featuring urban policy and cultural commentary with City Journal editors, contributors and special guests.