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- [00:09]
A
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the City Journal podcast. I am your host, Rafael Mangual. So excited to be joined by two of my wonderful colleagues. We've got Tao Fork Gang, Jim Copeland. Jim Copeland, who hired me when I joined the Manhattan Institute back in 2015. So he is the one to blame for anything that I do or say that you don't like. Welcome to the show, gentlemen.
- [00:29]
B
Thank you.
- [00:31]
A
So we are living in interesting times here in New York City, where we are all gathered on this dreary day.
- [00:42]
We're coming off a mayoral election in which Zoram Hamdani, probably one of the more radical candidates that we've seen run for that office, has emerged victorious. And as New York City's incoming mayors do, Zoharan Mamdani made his way to the White House recently to meet with President Trump, perhaps New York City's his most famous now former resident, a man who made his life and career in arguably the greatest city in the world. I certainly would argue that. And it's interesting because Zorram Mohamdani has positioned himself very much as an opponent of Donald Trump. He is sort of the antithesis of the MAGA movement. And Donald Trump certainly has not held back on his criticisms of Zoram Mamdani and his ilk. So I think a lot of people were expecting fireworks after that White House meeting. And to everyone's surprise, and I think a lot of people's chagrin when the two of them came out for their little, you know, media.
- [01:47]
Appearance, their joint media effort, they were very friendly, and I think it threw everyone for a loop. So what I want to talk about today is just what we make of that. I mean, I think a lot of people, you know, may suspect that Donald Trump just gets off on, you know, living in a way that's incongruous with the broader expectations. And if you look at some of the looks on Zohra Mamdani's face, I think, you know, those moments caught him by surprise, too. What do you think was up with that?
- [02:17]
B
I mean, Donald Trump has spent decades dealing with left wing politicians of all stripes, New York politicians of all stripes, people of all stripes. And so, you know, it's not surprising to me that you'd have a pretty gracious reception there. And, you know, there's the old adage in politics. There are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests. And I think that's sort of how Donald Trump views the world politically. I mean, you know, did he want Mamdani to win? No. He made that no secret. But now that Makdani's the mayor. Yeah, he's gonna meet with him, he's gonna be pleasant. Doesn't mean there's not gonna be conflict. And we'll talk about some of those, I'm sure. But it wasn't surprising to me. Cause that's generally Donald Trump's st. I mean, we've seen different sorts of meetings, you know, the head of state of Ukraine for a few. But you know, it's all gonna be contextual and all gonna depend on that. If you watch the entire tape of that one, it was not that way necessarily originally either. So, you know, it didn't surprise me. I don't know what you think, Pam.
- [03:21]
C
Trump's reaction didn't surprise me that much. Both for the reasons that you just outlined, Jim, and because he will smile back at anyone who smiles at him. Right. That's kind of been his mo.
- [03:36]
A
That's one thing Zora Ahamdani's got. It's a smile.
- [03:38]
C
It's a smile.
- [03:38]
B
It's an ever present.
- [03:42]
C
Smile. The President also seems to enjoy being disarming in unexpected ways.
- [03:49]
A
Yeah.
- [03:50]
C
And I think he was just kind of rolling with it.
- [03:54]
I imagine that many of Mamdani's supporters expected him to go in there with the activist energy, that kind of the megaphone on the streets of New York.
- [04:06]
A
City that he was just speaking into outside of Starbucks.
- [04:12]
C
That's how he made his name. He was an activist. And I think many people in the DSA orbit expected him to go in there and tell the President what's what. And instead we got this stalemate of smiles mirroring one back at the other. That disturbs me for reasons and perhaps surprises me for reasons other than those that the DSA is picking up on, which is Mamdani is like a relatively unknown entity. Like what is he really up to? Right, Right. If he is not the person the DSA expected him to be, if he is not outwardly as he is inwardly, then, well, what if we really just gotten.
- [04:59]
A complete unknown in this new situation? Right. At least the DSA radical, we know what we're dealing with.
- [05:05]
A
Right. I see. In that, I mean, yeah, if you're.
- [05:08]
B
Dealing with someone on a certain edge of the spectrum might be better than the known edge. Right.
- [05:16]
A
So, I mean, listen, anything unknown is going to be to the right of what I think a lot of people think. Zoram Hamdani is a welcome development, has.
- [05:23]
B
Gotten elected now, which means he's got to deliver something here now. I don't think he's going to fundamentally transform his worldview. I think he is who he says he is. But.
- [05:34]
The federal government plays a big role in a lot of respects for New York City.
- [05:41]
A
Namely funding a lot.
- [05:42]
B
Of what happens, a lot of stuff. And listen, could he win at the end of the day in legal battles with the feds on a lot of this? Sure. And if you're an attorney general, like my law school classmate Rob Bonta in California, you can make a career out of that. I took on Trump and beat him in court. But if you're the mayor, you know, people want the trash picked up. People want the, you know, people have certain expectations for what's going to happen in the city. And so, you know, I do. I think he's going to pick fights with Donald Trump. Yes, but he's probably going to be. And if I were for, for someone who wants New York to do well, hopefully going to be at least somewhat strategic in those fights. And, and, and there's no reason to just be personally bel.
- [06:22]
C
I guess what I was hoping for was that they would just lock horns immediately, and the story of the Mamdani mayoralty would be struggles with the federal government and maybe some other governments and other authorities stepping in. And instead, I'm now concerned, like, what if he has smiled his way to get Trump into his corner? Right.
- [06:44]
A
And I don't think, I think the president is less gullible than that is my guess.
- [06:51]
B
I think the differences will surface and sooner rather than.
- [06:55]
A
I think they're already starting to. And I think, you know, one of the things that we've seen just recently over the weekend in New York City is a massive immigration enforcement effort that started actually the day that Zoram Hamdani made his way down to the White House. President Trump sent Tom Homan up to New York City. And, you know, Tom Homan is leading an effort to really address illegal immigration, which has been a massive point of contention between, you know, Camp Mamdani and Camp Trump. And it's gotten pretty out of hand relatively quickly. So, you know, downtown Manhattan, there was a garage over the weekend where ICE had some vehicles. That garage was very quickly blocked by protesters who had planned to try and frustrate those efforts. A very large crowd gathered, things got out of hand, arrests were made, and I think it gave us a little preview into what we might expect, particularly on the immigration issue. And maybe we can just talk about that for a little bit, because I think it's important to just outline for folks there are Limits to what the federal government can do to coerce a local government to help it. Right. It's no secret that New York City is a sanctuary city, which means that it's not gonna cooperate with federal efforts on immigration enforcement, by and large. And that's good. Right. The Constitution offers, through federalism, a protection for state and local authorities to not be commandeered by federal authorities.
- [08:24]
But that doesn't mean that they can't undertake their own efforts here in New York City. And I think that's where we're gonna see some clashes. So, I mean, one question is, what do you think Mamdani's thinking in terms of he's made this promise to protect immigrants in New York, to offer them some blanket of security. Can he really? Is that a promise he can keep? What does that even look like? Right. I mean, you know, let's say.
- [08:53]
Can he, for example, kick ICE out of the city? No. Right. I mean, there's. There's federal supremacy.
- [09:00]
B
No.
- [09:01]
C
Right.
- [09:01]
B
I mean, yeah, the Constitution is very clear that. That the federal law is supreme over the state law as long as the federal law is constitutional. And, you know, there can be legal challenges, and there could be legal challenges that ICE would lose. But. But, yeah, the federal law. Supreme. You.
- [09:17]
A
You.
- [09:18]
B
But the federal government is a government of limited powers, and the states retain, under the 10th Amendment, residual authority, and the Supreme Court's been cleared. You can't commandeer the states. The president can't force Madani to order the NYPD to do X, Y or Z.
- [09:36]
But, yeah, to actually remove federal troops or federal agents or federal facilities. You know, I mean, listen, we had this dispute before. We had it in 1861. I mean, at the end of the day, the federal law is supreme, and Mamdani is going to face that limit in what he can do.
- [09:56]
A
Right. I mean, this is probably, at least in my version of things, why you didn't really see Donald Trump get flustered during that meeting. I think he knows ultimately that there's very little that Zoram Hamdani can do to stop him from sort of executing on his priorities, particularly on immigration enforcement.
- [10:16]
C
Well, certainly it would take a lot of effort and resources to try.
- [10:21]
A
Right.
- [10:22]
C
And that might be good enough. Right. Trump. Trump does know, like, I can make your life hell if you. If you try to mess with the federal power in any way. I have even more resources than New York City does.
- [10:38]
A
Right, right. Which is, you know, and it is interesting to sort of think through what that would even look like. Right. I mean, I mean, obviously we know that Mamdani can't ban federal agents from, you know, patrolling in New York City or making arrests in New York City. But as we saw this weekend with the protests at the ICE facility or at the, at the garage targeting ice, the NYPD does need to play a role, right? I mean, the rule can't be that. Or maybe it can be that, you know, the allies that Mamdani has in the kind of protests movements of New York City can just go follow ICE around and block traffic and, you know, block their facilities and just get away with that.
- [11:22]
B
I mean, listen, I think Mabdani can order the NYPD to stand down.
- [11:28]
A
Is that a good look for New York City?
- [11:30]
B
I don't think he should, but I think he can. Now, the question is, though, for people who are worried about, you know, Trump calling in National Guard or sending in federal forces in some form, you know, if he does that, that will be the federal response. You have to assume that. I mean, the federal government has to be able to protect its people, its facilities. You know, we saw this in the protests in 2020, right, when you had up in Portland and these sorts of protests happened where federal buildings were under siege. Well, yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, the federal government's gonna protect its facilities. Gonna protect. If the NYPD is not going to do it, the feds will do it.
- [12:12]
C
There's also the threat behind the scenes of the federal government no longer spending money on state and local government and law enforcement. Now, obviously, that's a really blunt instrument to say that less or no federal money is going to flow to the New York Police Department. The people who suffer under such an escalation are New Yorkers, obviously. But that is, that's a dramatic.
- [12:37]
A
Well, not under Zoramdani's theory of, you know, the world. Right. I mean, for him, policing four dimensional chess, Right.
- [12:44]
C
He's going to force Republicans to defund the police. That's another tool that's available. That's a pretty scary escalation.
- [12:55]
A
Right.
- [12:56]
B
But it's clearly one this administration's taken vis a vis major research universities, for instance. Sure. And there's a reason why a lot of those research universities have backed down. And so, you know, I have to question whether that's the fight that the mayor would want to pick. I mean, unless he's trying to backdoor police defunding, which would be crazy. But it may be what he would want. Who knows?
- [13:17]
A
It might be what he would want. And actually that, that's an interesting question to explore for A little bit. Because, you know, I'm sure that as Team Mamdani is thinking about what they can do to frustrate the efforts of, you know, ICE and cbp, the Customs and Border Protection, the two agencies Primari doing immigration enforcement. The Trump administration is probably also thinking about, well, what can we do to limit the excesses of a Mamdani administration? Which I think is an interesting question to think about. Right. I mean, and policing is one of those areas that immediately comes to mind for me in part because that's my focus. Right. But like, say, Mamdani tries to significantly defund the NYPD or follow through on his promises to, you know, get rid of the gang database or, you know, get rid of, you know, significant units of the nypd. I mean, couldn't the federal government step in there and send, you know, say, a joint task force of federal law enforcement agents to come in and set up their own gang policing shop where, you know, they have concurrent jurisdiction?
- [14:27]
B
Absolutely. I mean, there are statutory limits and constitutional limits. The constitutional limits, you know, are relatively low based on what the Supreme Court's interpreted federal power under the Constitution. The statutory limits may be stricter. There may be things written in the statute that create limits. But the answer is that there's quite a broad scope for federal law enforcement. We see the FBI, we see federal law enforcement in lots and lots of matters. And this is something from the prosecutorial angle and from the police enforcement angle where the feds could certainly step in if Madani is not willing to.
- [15:04]
C
Here's one other thing that obviously relates to many of the hobby horses that I've had, that I've developed thinking about domestic extremist groups and sort of this activist nonprofit complex.
- [15:17]
The mechanism by which.
- [15:21]
Under this scenario we've sketched out, the mechanism by which Mamdani makes life difficult for immigration enforcement is essentially letting these nonprofit activist organizations run wild. Right. Letting them have their way with. With ice, beat them back, stand in their way, interfere, and refuse to call in the police to. To make arrests and restore order. So we've sketched out the way that the feds can restore order. The feds can also attack the roots of the problem by investigating and otherwise undermining the actual foot soldiers and the organizations that them.
- [16:04]
A
What does that look like?
- [16:05]
C
Well, there's. There's a lot that can be done there. We've seen some of these antifa aligned.
- [16:12]
A
Organizations which has been declared a domestic terrorist organization, right to questionable legal offense. Sure.
- [16:20]
C
But many other partner organizations have soft spots, weaknesses, ties to hostile Foreign regimes, ties to foreign terrorist organizations, and a history of law breaking. This kind of disorderly conduct that makes up the bread and butter of what they do. Vandalism, trespassing, obstruction of justice, in the case of getting in the way of ice, all kinds of relatively small crimes when they are done in isolation, that can be hugely disruptive when they're done en masse or as part of a repeated pattern of conduct that really obstructs, really gets in the way of the proper functioning of society. Any of those could be a basis for an investigation of these 501C3 groups.
- [17:14]
That fund and organize and otherwise deploy these foot soldiers. There's potentially a lot of money there, not to mention.
- [17:25]
Those who grant money to those organizations, possibly while knowing that that money is going to use for helpful purposes.
- [17:32]
A
That was going to be my next question. I mean, aren't they sort of opening themselves up now to some kind of legal exposure.
- [17:39]
Which could ultimately dissuade them from funding?
- [17:42]
B
I mean, there could certainly be a chilling effect, right? I mean, I think it'd be much harder to bring those sort of second order cases, but there could be a chilling effect. I mean, people, people of large means aren't going to want to, you know, deal with the headaches of winning. I think in some of these cases. And you know, the feds statutorily have, it's the anti terror stuff, it's rico, the Racketeering Influence Corrupt Organizations Act. There's lots of federal statutory frameworks where you could go after some of these organized entities if they're actually sowing discord. And I wouldn't at all put it past this administration, this Justice Department from doing exactly that.
- [18:23]
C
It would be nice, by the way, if state governments that also have the authority to step in and either enact a punishment that fits this kind of conduct by just raising the penalties on the characteristic unlawful conduct that constitutes these protests. Right. Which is a complicated way of saying if it's just a misdemeanor to commit disorderly conduct, states can step in and say, if you commit disorderly conduct with 10 other people or in the course of a certain pattern of behavior, we're gonna consider that a felony and we're gonna prosecute it as a felony. If you raise the cost, you just, you prevent more people from doing it. It's basic.
- [19:09]
A
Well, then the question becomes, at least in New York City is like, can you convince someone like Alvin Bragg or Eric Gonzalez to actually prosecute the felony? But you certainly wouldn't have to work very hard, I think to convince the local U.S. attorneys that, you know, people who are arrested for interfering with federal law en by federal authorities are now open to federal prosecution where there's real teeth. Right. They're not just going to be kicked out with a desk appearance ticket and have their case ultimately dismissed for some kind of, you know, out of court diversion program here. They might actually go to pretrial detention and face some real time.
- [19:47]
C
If, if I were a Trump administration that suppose, you know, perhaps said that they wanted to go after major left wing funders of disorder and occasional political violence, I would see this as a massive opening, huge exposure to get to the people who actually sow and encourage this disorder.
- [20:12]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting. I mean, I think a lot of people who are worried about Heizo Rahmani who by the way, like he won.
- [20:22]
With a majority of the vote.
- [20:25]
But there was also about a million people who came out to vote against him and his agenda. Right. So there's a very split electorate and I suspect that there is a lot of anxiety about what he's going to do. And like, just to refresh the memories of people watching, like, this is a man who has committed to abolishing the NYPD's gang database, to dismantling the strategic response group within the nypd, which is the group that responds to a lot of these protest gatherings, mass shootings, other large scale events.
- [20:58]
He has now appointed a couple of police abolitionists to his transition team, which is very, very concerning. He has the, he was the only candidate who said he didn't want to increase the number of NYPD officers, which is currently on a downward trajectory due to attrition. So there are some concerning things just within the public safety space. Then you have all of the socialism stuff. So there's a lot there that I think people are worried about. But it seems to me that President Trump, his administration has a lot more leverage and a lot more on their menu to frustrate Mamdani than the other way around. Am I wrong about that?
- [21:44]
B
Sure. I mean. No, no, you're wrong. You're right.
- [21:47]
A
Excuse me? I mean, you almost broke my heart.
- [21:49]
B
No, no, what you're saying is absolutely right. I mean, listen, I mean, I mean Trump cares about New York because it's the biggest city and, and he's from here, Right. He's a New Yorker. He cares about it, but it's not like New York is the core of his political base. Right. So I mean, you know, he, he's.
- [22:09]
The issue will be for, for Trump does He want to expend that political capital. And it seems like in a lot of these cities, the answer's been yes, to try to maintain order. I mean, the public safety stuff. Listen, I, I do think, think Madani is more of a true believer in this maybe than de Blasio was. I mean, certainly his public positions. I do think there's significant risk.
- [22:32]
And I think that's political risk for Mamdani, too, whether he realizes or not. It's one thing to run a campaign with nice graphics and great social media and an attractive candidate who's friendly and focus on affordability, which is what people care about. It's another thing if public safety deteriorates. And, you know, we saw this when his predecessor, Eric Adams was elected. Part of the reason he was elected from sort of the right half of the Democratic spectrum was people were worried about the breakdown in public order. Now, we've seen improvement on that over the last four years, which is one reason why I think Mabdani wasn't paying a big political price for that. But if it reverses course, if he does some of these extreme things and, you know, shootings are going up and just the quality of life things are going down, then you know, he's gonna pay a political price for it. But do I think he's going to do some of it? Sure. And the question will, what exactly will Trump do? But he's got a lot of degrees of freedom to do things.
- [23:25]
C
Yeah.
- [23:25]
A
I mean, one thing that I don't think that, you know, the sort of Mamdaniites have fully considered is the scope of political unpopularity of things like mass scale protests. I mean, you mentioned Eric Adams, who was elected. Yes. In the wake of a crime increase and because he was sort of promising to crack down on that. But there was also a massive increase in the number of public protests and riots in New York City in 2020. I mean, the summer of 20 money, the summer of Love, is it's affectionately known. I mean, I came into Midtown Manhattan on June 1st of 2020, and Madison Avenue looked like a war zone. Broken glass, emptied storefronts. Not because the storefronts had shut down, but because they were looted the night before.
- [24:17]
I walked past, I think, two or three different coffee shops trying to get a cup of coffee. Finally found a Starbucks that was open, but you couldn't because they had boarded up the windows that had been smashed out. And inside was insane.
- [24:32]
That was really, really unpopular. And if we start to see more of what we're already starting to see, even before Zorramadani takes office, I suspect that he's looking at a one term mayoralty. But I may be overstepping.
- [24:46]
C
I think even more than the striking image of a looted storefront or a demonstration featuring masked protesters chanting unhinged things, even more than that is the sense of.
- [25:08]
Disorder, the sense of chaos, the sense of not knowing what tomorrow will bring. Will the Brooklyn Bridge be blocked by protesters that the mayor just allows to run free? Like will it suddenly be Open SE on CEOs in New York City with the groundswell of popular support? Those things do not actually have to take shape for people to say you know what, I've had enough and take the well trod Trump path down to Florida. And that could be enough to precipitate a massive political change.
- [25:45]
B
Public safety, the tax base, the fiscal situation, education. We haven't talked about that, but neither.
- [25:51]
A
Has he by the way. That was just something that his campaign talk about.
- [25:55]
B
Yeah. And it's interesting because his electorate, based on the data our MI polling and others have shown, is his electorate skews young. Right. And clearly as a young person of color in the invoked thing or a South Asian person or a Muslim person, he captured those eight guys from a certain type of.
- [26:17]
Young person in particular and a certain demographic. But if he starts messing with the schools and we saw this some of the Bosio, you're going to see blowback from populations too too that are on the short end of this sort of racial balancing task that you know, he won't be able to go full bore on it without legal fights either. But, but you know, messing up schools and messing up opportunities for high achieving parents who want the best for their young people is another way for him to really undercut his support, which is is more about feels really I think.
- [26:49]
A
Right.
- [26:49]
B
And the affordability thing, but I don't know that there's a, it's a little bit of a underpants gnomes thing for old south park fans where you know, colle underpants profit, you know, affordability, you know, he wants to make it affordable, but his actual policies aren't going to do that.
- [27:08]
A
Right. Right.
- [27:09]
C
Ralph, I'm hung up on the the line you drew between the Luigi Mangione phenomenon and the rise of Zaran Mamdani. I think you're right to do that. There is a distinct kind of morality at play. Jim invoked South Park. I'll invoke. Louis CK is like of course, but maybe, but maybe right, like of course it's wrong to murder a CEO in cold blood, but maybe Right. And similarly, Mamdani's statement after this disgraceful demonstration outside Parky Synagogue is of course under the law and everything we believe is good and true. People should not be harassed or obstructed going in and out of a house of worship.
- [27:58]
But maybe they deserved it because there were some nebulous violations of international law being right. It's a total shift of our moral intuitions to take things that were completely black and white, unacceptable. We don't murder people on the street. We do not obstruct people going into a synagogue and just questioning it. Just toying with the idea that maybe our clear, our.
- [28:29]
Things that were properly dogma to us, things that we did not question because they were hard fought and hard won lessons of Western civilization just undermining it just a little bit.
- [28:43]
A
No, I think that's right and I do think that that is sort of.
- [28:48]
It'S at the root of his rise. There is this, this kind of countercultural thing that's actually moving more and more mainstream in a way, but it is a rejection of what Western civilization has kind of stood for. I mean, there are people in his camp who are openly questioning core institutions, like whether we need police in prisons, like whether America is a force for good, like whether this land is, you know, something we have, have any right to whatsoever. Whether, you know, you have a moral obligation or duty to physically impede, you know, enforcement efforts that you don't agree with, no matter how legal or illegal they are. It just seems like, you know, this kind of questioning of things, you know, even on sort of gender ideology. Right. I mean, he says he's going to be a sanctuary city for people who want, you know, for even minors who want to transition, you know, their, their sort of gender expression. So yeah, I mean, there, there are a lot of things that we are questioning now that, that we didn't used to that strike me as kind of at the core of this, this broader movement. I think the question for us is like, does it stop with Mom? Donnie? Do people end up realizing that it's.
- [30:11]
B
Crazy or, you know, for, for the non New Yorkers in the audience, I would suggest that this is the good side of this. I do not think, think that there is a broad national consensus behind some of these ideas. I mean, New York has always been different and it's very different now than when I first visited the city 35 years ago and first moved to the city 25 years ago. The demographics are different.
- [30:43]
The way the city operates is different, and the shifts in and out of the city. It's just a very, very different. And so I think with that, you're going to have a different sort of cohort. I do not think the Mamdani.
- [31:00]
Message is one that would be nationally successful. And if the national Democrats run with it, they'll do so at their peril. I think it'd be very hard to win. But that doesn't mean that there aren't other blue states that will have analogs and that you already do see in some places is sort of analogs or other cities. So it's not going to be unique to New York. But I don't think that there's a national Madani movement. I do think within the Democratic Party politics, there's a strong bubbling up. And we've seen it before. We've seen it with aoc, we've seen it with, you know who I think.
- [31:35]
A
A lot of people think is maybe.
- [31:36]
B
Going to challenge Chuck Schumer. Right. The old guard of old guards in terms of New York politics.
- [31:39]
A
So I think she'll run for president before she does that. I mean, you know, how.
- [31:43]
B
Does made more sense to me.
- [31:45]
A
But yeah, I mean, like, I just, you know, that's.
- [31:47]
C
Are you going to abolish the Senate when you're in it?
- [31:50]
A
That's certainly one thing. But the other thing is I just don't see why running for Senate changes her profile at all in a meaningful way. Whereas, like, I mean, she already has a massive following. She has name recognition. The Senate. Turning in the Senate doesn't really change that unless she just wants to make that a career.
- [32:08]
B
She gets lots of attention now, raises money, isn't going to lose in her district.
- [32:12]
A
Yeah. I think she stays in the House until she's ready to run for president, which I suspect it's going to be soon.
- [32:19]
B
Soon.
- [32:20]
A
What do you think?
- [32:21]
C
Is AOC going to run for president?
- [32:23]
A
No, no. Just. I mean, more broadly on this show.
- [32:25]
C
More broadly. Here's what I keep thinking about.
- [32:28]
A
You look pensive. That's why I asked.
- [32:30]
C
Well, I have resting, pensive face. But.
- [32:34]
For New Yorkers, the good news about this.
- [32:40]
The Mangione momdani, I don't mean to connect them too closely. Like, obviously, Mamdani's not responsible. Like, I don't to let me be clear that when I say that there's a connection between the two, I mean only in this, like, radical upending of basic norms of Western civilization. The good news is that this competing set of norms and expectations and a competing morality really is not fit for human consumption. It will fail. The same way that all of these other utopian projects to reshape human nature and the way humans can live amongst one another, they flame out terrifically, which means that they are finite, that they will end. The bad news is that they're not fit for human consumption. They're toxic. And a lot of people are gonna suffer. And that breaks my heart that like, I. And you know, we at this table, if we needed to, we could move. We have the means to move. A lot of people are moral.
- [33:44]
B
I moved, I moved. Moved a while back.
- [33:47]
C
We could stop coming in to record our podcasts here in Manhattan. We could record them somewhere from our bunker in North Carolina if we needed to. And a lot of people do not have that luxury. And I am not raising alarms about this really perverse morality because it affects me all that much. It really does. Not on a personal level in terms of my own safety, but there are millions of people who are gonna suffer under this, and I don't know what else I can do.
- [34:21]
A
I think that's exactly right. And I think you just made the case for why Trump and his administration should do what they can to keep the excesses of the Mamdani administration at bay.
- [34:32]
In the wake, especially of Mamdani's victory. I have heard so many people on X and in my life and just making these snide comments about, ha, well, New York's over. You know, you brought this on yourself. I don't care. And it's like, you know what? Actually, one, New York's not over. It's never over. It's never been over. It's never going to be over. Like, you know, get over yourself. But also, I mean, there are real people who didn't vote for Mom, Donnie, who voted for the other guy. You know, whether it was Cuomo or Curtis, Lewa or whoever. Even Aaron Judge got 11 votes, actually, as a writing candidate, not mine. But, you know, like, there are people who didn't vote for him. There are people who couldn't vote but are still legal residents who have to live with this. Whether, you know, they didn't vote because they are not citizens or they didn't vote because, you know, they're under 18. Those people are no less deserving of good outcomes and good government. Like the idea that we should just, you know, shrug them off and say, haha, you deserved it. This is what you. I mean, like, it's, it's, it's gross to me. It's never really sat well, you know, but it's also wrong. And so, you know, I think, like, like I said, I mean, you just, you just made the case in my book for why Trump should step in.
- [35:50]
B
Yeah. I mean, who quipped it? Was it Menken? You know, democracy's a theory.
- [35:55]
A
You, you. That's right.
- [35:56]
B
The voters get what they want, good and hard. I mean, so, so I, I think some of these quips are, are, are tongue in cheek, I hope a little bit. The reality is, is, is that foot voting, capital, mobility, freedom in our sort of federal system means that with a city, yeah, people will move, people will get out, and the pendulums will swing and politics will shift and things will eventually turn around in a positive way, just like the market is ruthlessly efficient and driving things in a certain direction. That's going to be true, I think, think in the longer term, to some degree, with, with New York politics, but in the shorter term, there could be a lot of damage. And so, so I, I hope and pray for New York that that damage will be somewhat mitigated because, you know, we all love this city. You know, indeed, we all love the city. Manhattan Institute's based in this city.
- [36:52]
A
And what's not to love?
- [36:53]
B
I mean, you and I are going.
- [36:54]
A
To go grab steaks at Sparks.
- [36:55]
B
I mean, like, yeah, I fell in love in the city.
- [36:58]
A
I got married in the city. Come on now, don't, don't blaspheme.
- [37:01]
B
Aaron Judge, he play ball. And, you know, if I New York, I probably wouldn't have voted for in Judge, but I understand the temptation given who else was on the ballot.
- [37:10]
A
All right, well, we'll end it with some good news there and some good feels. Thank you so much for watching. Please do not forget to, like, comment, subscribe, Ring the bell, Ask us a question, shoot us an email. Tell us if you liked the episode. Tell us if you didn't. We may not listen to the latter, but until next time, you've been watching the City Journal podcast and we will see you soon.
- [37:33]
B
Sam.