City Journal Audio — "Public Housing’s Progressive History"

Host: Stephen Ide (Manhattan Institute)
Guest: Howard Husock (American Enterprise Institute)
Date: September 19, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of City Journal Audio's Ten Blocks features host Stephen Ide interviewing Howard Husock, author of the new book A New History of Public Housing (NYU Press). Together they delve into the ideological origins, development, and present-day legacy of American public housing, exploring its progressive roots, the ambitions and failures of mid-century planners, the social and economic consequences of large housing projects, and the prospects for future reform.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Public Housing Still Matters (01:04–02:07)

• Current Relevance: Public housing and its offshoots (e.g., housing vouchers) are still widely present—with 876,000 public housing units and 2.7 million voucher units in the US.
• Historical Significance: Understanding public housing’s origins is critical: “A small elite in New York led to the changes, physical changes and policy changes across the country affecting millions of people. How that happened, that process is very much worth understanding and visiting in detail, lest we make similar mistakes.” — Howard Husock (01:25)

2. The Grand, Progressive Vision (02:07–03:40)

• Intellectual Origins: Early advocates were not just helping the poor but trying to “remake cities”—inspired by European (especially Le Corbusier’s) modernist ideals.
• Modernist Influence: “Le Corbusier envisioned a city without streets... They thought they were going to remake the cities and to some extent they did. And now people live with that legacy in quite isolated communities with no stores, no churches, no mutual aid societies.” — Howard Husock (03:20)

3. Why the Dream Didn't Work (03:41–05:04)

• Initial Success: Public housing initially served working families well, offering new, low-rent apartments.
• Vision Drift & Demise: Over time, Americans preferred suburban homeownership (e.g., Levittown), while public housing became “a hollowed out shelter for the very poor.”
• Misreading American Preferences: “They ignored the fact that Americans really didn’t want that kind of apartment living...And public housing…became a hollowed out shelter for the very poor.” — Howard Husock (04:15)

4. Progressivism, Governance, & Capacity (05:04–07:33)

• Progressive Hubris vs. Inaction: Reflecting on how 20th-century infrastructure feats (personified by Robert Moses) contrast with today’s paralyzed public processes.
• Slum Clearance Gone Awry: “Nobody went to the so-called slums... Nobody said, would you like to move to the outskirts of town and live in the high rise where there are no stores? Nobody asked that.”
• Modern Paradox: Too little input led to social engineering; now, too much process hampers action: “And so that we then swung totally other direction...to the point that we’ve become paralyzed. And so there’s gotta be a middle ground...” — Howard Husock (06:59)

5. Chicago: Race, Modernism, and Failure (07:33–10:35)

• Destruction of Communities: Black neighborhoods with vibrant institutions (e.g., Bronzeville) were bulldozed in favor of high-rises, often against the community’s wishes.
• Segregation and Modernism Merge: Chicago’s housing failures resulted from segregationist policies and adoption of large-scale modernist buildings: “Segregation happened because Daley didn’t want scattered side housing. He wanted to keep blacks on the south side. And then it got married to the modernist vision of high rises on the lake. And this was a highly deleterious combination.” — Howard Husock (10:28)

6. From High-Rises to Vouchers: A PR Win? (10:35–13:06)

• The Shift: The move from visible, vertical projects to housing vouchers created the perception of reform.
• New Problems: Vouchers produced “horizontal ghettos”—concentrated poverty that is less visible but still problematic.
• Dependency Trap: “Almost 50% of voucher holders are African American, way disproportionate...The more money you earn, the more you pay in rent. So we’ve created a new system of dependency. But you’re right, it’s not really on the radar.” — Howard Husock (12:41)

7. Alternatives: Reclaiming Landlording and Community Models (13:06–15:56)

• Landlording as Mobility: Historically, renting out parts of homes spurred upward mobility and wealth creation, especially among immigrants and minorities.
• Current Hostility: Today’s regulations and cultural narrative stigmatize small landlords and curb the creation of “naturally occurring affordable housing.”
• Loss of Social Capital: “The landlord lives on one floor, the tenants live on another floor...There’s social capital involved in small landlording...the idea that landlords are per se exploitative robs us of that social cohesion.” — Howard Husock (15:21)

8. Reviving the Lodger Economy (15:56–18:17)

• Historic Lodging: Once vital for affordability, taking in lodgers is now constrained by law and cultural sensitivity.
• Policy Suggestions: Revising bans on unrelated roommates could help with today’s “overhoused” public housing residents and address the affordability crisis.
• Modern Example: “I’m kind of tolerant of Airbnb as a recreation of Lodjerdom, and there’s been a pushback against that as well.” — Howard Husock (17:19)

9. What to Do About NYCHA? (18:17–20:31)

• Innovative Solutions Needed: NYCHA, with 20% of the nation’s public housing, could be transformed by subdividing apartments, converting to dormitory-style housing, or offering buyouts to long-term residents.
• Cautious Privatization: Bringing in private management might improve short-term conditions but may not solve long-term sustainability.
• Out-of-the-Box Thinking Required: “Maybe some buildings are so valuable...that we should try to relocate tenants, sell those buildings for really large [amounts] for billions, and use the proceeds to fix up the rest...I think the city should aspire to get out of the housing business, but that really makes me a housing heretic.” — Howard Husock (20:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the roots of public housing:
  “This was not just about how to help poor people with the rent. This was about creating...a city of tomorrow.” — Stephen Ide (02:23)
• On the modernist Utopian vision:
  “The Corbusier envisioned a city without streets...They thought they were going to remake the cities and to some extent they did.” — Howard Husock (03:17)
• On landlording’s lost role:
  “The anti landlord bias, the idea that landlords are per se exploitative, robs us of that social cohesion.” — Howard Husock (15:33)
• On persistent dependency traps:
  “We’ve created a new system of dependency. But you’re right, it’s not really on the radar.” — Howard Husock (12:57)
• On NYCHA reform:
  “You’ve got to think much, much more creatively about how to approach it over time. I think the city should aspire to get out of the housing business, but that really makes me a housing heretic.” — Howard Husock (20:18)

Key Timestamps

• 01:04 — Why public housing still matters today
• 02:07 — Grand visions: Modernism and progressivism
• 03:41 — Why public housing’s ambitions fell short
• 05:04 — The governance paradox: Hubris vs. paralysis
• 07:33 — Chicago’s public housing disaster
• 10:35 — Vouchers: The hidden consequences
• 13:06 — Reviving landlording for social mobility
• 15:56 — The lost world of the lodger
• 18:17 — Creative fixes for NYCHA’s crisis

Tone & Takeaway

Reflective, rigorous, and critical, the episode invites listeners to reconsider not only the history of public housing but also the assumptions underlying current housing debates. Husock’s perspective challenges both the uncritical embrace of state-led solutions and simplistic demonization of private sector actors, ultimately calling for humility, innovation, and a serious reckoning with the legacy of top-down social engineering.