Podcast Summary: City Journal Audio – “Trump and Public Safety” (January 23, 2025)

Overview

In this episode of the "City Journal Audio" podcast, editor Brian Anderson interviews Heather Mac Donald, Chief Thomas W. Smith Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and seasoned commentator on law enforcement and public policy. The discussion focuses on the anticipated changes to public safety policy under newly inaugurated President Trump, the legacy of justice and policing priorities under President Biden, and the complex interplay between federal and local responsibilities in crime prevention, immigration, and law enforcement morale. The conversation is driven by Mac Donald’s recent City Journal article, "Can Trump Make America Safe Again?"

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Biden Administration’s Criminal Justice Approach

• Consequences of DEI Priorities ([01:45])
  • Heather asserts that during Biden’s term, federal priorities shifted from public safety to DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) hiring and “disparate impact” analysis.
  • Mac Donald criticizes the focus on racial representation in judicial appointments, arguing, "Anytime you make an irrelevant criterion like gender or skin color a key decision making factor, you are going to mathematically guarantee a much lower on average qualified group of candidates." ([02:50])
  • She further claims that Biden equated arrest and incarceration disparities with systemic racism, rather than recognizing differences in crime rates: "The disparities are not the result of racism. They are the result of vast disparities in criminal offending." ([03:56])
  • Example: In NYC, Black residents are "20% of the population, but they commit two thirds of all shootings." ([04:17])
  • Conclusion: Policies motivated by equity concerns “ask for more crime, and that’s what we got under the Biden administration.” ([04:41])

2. Trump’s Early Executive Orders and Federal Role in Law Enforcement

• Impact of Abolishing DEI ([05:21])

  • Trump’s executive order abolishing DEI in federal government—“a big deal because the quality of our personnel matters. We should not be indifferent to questions of merit.” – Mac Donald ([05:35])
  • She argues the real challenge is dismantling “disparate impact” legal theory, which “has been one of the most poisonous concepts to come out of the legal academy that we've seen in the last 60 years.” ([06:21])
  • Mac Donald suggests Trump should push Congress to clarify civil rights law, returning to intent-based discrimination enforcement.

• Federal-Local Law Enforcement Cooperation ([08:10])

  • Mac Donald frames continued urban disorder as a result of local policy failures on involuntary commitment and repeat offender incarceration: "They are, in effect, willed by mayors, by city prosecutors, by state legislators, because they are completely predictable." ([08:41])
  • The federal government’s role: “FBI agents... ATF agents can work with local police on task forces to crack down on the hotspots...” ([09:29])
  • Federal prosecutors offer faster trials and longer sentences, which serve as a deterrent ([09:51]).
  • Critique of federal grants: Mac Donald is generally opposed, calling it “magical, mystical thinking that localities have that if they get sent a federal grant from Washington, wow, it's new money. It's all this new stuff that they're getting... It's the same damn taxpayers.” ([10:53])
  • Proposal: Use federal grants as leverage—“You do not get any more federal money unless you change your laws of commitment so that you don’t have mentally ill drug addicts... on the streets.” ([12:10])

3. Immigration Enforcement and Sanctuary Cities

• Trump’s Planned Immigration Actions ([14:10])
  • Trump’s executive orders target illegal immigration, which Mac Donald connects to crime prevention.
  • Major obstacle: “The most sickening situation in our country today is the blatant refusal to cooperate with federal law enforcement when it comes to immigration enforcement. These sanctuary cities, it’s just shocking the way that they are resisting lawful federal authority.” ([14:53])
  • Describes typical scenario: Local jails refuse to notify ICE when releasing illegal alien criminals, who then “go right back to the streets.” ([15:56])
  • Legal landscape: Previous court rulings were mixed; “It’s a very unsettled area of law. This is going to start up again and it's going to be very interesting to watch.” ([17:53])
  • New York City example: “About 75% of all crimes committed in midtown Manhattan, violent crimes, are committed by illegal aliens.” ([18:30])
  • Policy logic: “We shouldn’t have any illegal alien criminals. They can all be deported. That’s what Trump’s going to do.” ([19:14])
  • Trump is expected to withhold grants from sanctuary jurisdictions, anticipating lawsuits.

4. Law Enforcement Morale and Police Recruitment

• Cultural Climate for Policing ([19:39])
  • Anderson asks whether Trump’s “bully pulpit” could reverse declining morale and recruitment.
  • Mac Donald: “Rhetoric matters. It absolutely matters.” ([20:35])
  • Criticizes the Obama/Biden narrative suggesting police are a threat to Black Americans: “It’s just preposterous... To hear that again and again from the President... is a complete discouragement if you’re on the job. And it is a complete deterrent from becoming a police officer.” ([21:02])
  • On Trump: “He can change that discourse 180 degrees. He can celebrate law enforcement. He will.” ([21:39])
  • Concern: Trump’s blanket January 6 pardon included people who assaulted officers—"an offense against law and order for anybody to attack a law enforcement officer." ([22:08])

5. Vision for the Future of Public Safety

• Potential Changes by End of Trump’s Term ([23:17])
  • Mac Donald lays out a vision: Reform commitment laws, energize police, “get rid of illegal alien criminals and frankly enforce the border.”
  • She claims, “I think we could have a totally different crime situation in this country. I think we would not have to worry about the looting. We could maybe have drugstores where you don't have to wait five minutes for somebody to come and unlock the toothpaste. You can have a rebirth of the retail sector.” ([24:09])
  • On political will: “Crime, public disorder are choices. We have to hold our public officials accountable because they turn their eyes away.” ([24:31])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 02:50 | Mac Donald | “Anytime you make an irrelevant criterion like gender or skin color a key decision making factor, you are going to mathematically guarantee a much lower on average qualified group of candidates.” | | 03:56 | Mac Donald | “The disparities are not the result of racism. They are the result of vast disparities in criminal offending.” | | 04:41 | Mac Donald | “When you tell the police that they are racist for trying to save the victims of crime... you are asking for more crime. And that's what we got under the Biden administration.” | | 06:21 | Mac Donald | "[Disparate impact] has been one of the most poisonous concepts to come out of the legal academy that we've seen in the last 60 years." | | 10:53 | Mac Donald | “[Federal grantmaking is] the same damn taxpayers... It’s a complete waste of money. We get less money than we had before.” | | 12:10 | Mac Donald | “You do not get any more federal money unless you change your laws of commitment so that you don’t have mentally ill drug addicts... on the streets.” | | 14:53 | Mac Donald | “The most sickening situation in our country today is the blatant refusal to cooperate with federal law enforcement when it comes to immigration enforcement. These sanctuary cities, it’s just shocking...” | | 20:35 | Mac Donald | “Rhetoric matters. It absolutely matters. The police under Biden, under Obama, lived with the incredibly incorrect, dangerous, constant narrative that the police were the biggest threat facing blacks, especially black children.” | | 24:09 | Mac Donald | “I think we could have a totally different crime situation in this country. I think we would not have to worry about the looting... You can have a rebirth of the retail sector.” | | 24:31 | Mac Donald | “Crime, public disorder are choices. We have to hold our public officials accountable because they turn their eyes away.” |

Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:16 – Introduction and framing of the episode’s theme
• 01:45 – Assessment of Biden-era public safety and criminal justice policy
• 05:21 – Trump’s executive orders on DEI and merit in law enforcement
• 08:10 – Federal-local relationships and police grant policy
• 14:10 – Focus on immigration enforcement, sanctuary cities, and criminal deportations
• 19:39 – The climate for American policing and potential for renewed morale under Trump
• 23:17 – Predictions for public safety and crime rates under new policies

Tone and Language Notes

• The episode maintains a pointed, sometimes provocative tone—emphasizing data-driven arguments, strong critiques of progressive criminal justice policy, and a forceful advocacy for stricter law enforcement, merit-based appointments, and assertive federal action.
• Mac Donald uses vivid language (“willed by mayors...,” “completely predictable,” “the most sickening situation...”), drawing clear lines between policy causes and crime/disorder outcomes.
• Brian Anderson asks clarifying, policy-focused questions, but the conversation mostly centers around Mac Donald’s diagnoses and prescriptions.

In Summary:
This episode offers a critical view of recent criminal justice trends, optimistically framing Trump’s first moves as opportunities to restore order, merit, and public safety, while making an impassioned case for stricter policies on both crime and immigration. The podcast is especially valuable for listeners interested in the intersection of federal policy, urban safety, and the politics of law enforcement.