City Journal Audio – Who We Are: Crime and Public Safety

Host: Raphael Mangual
Guest: Heather Mac Donald
Date: January 7, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode inaugurates "Who We Are," a new City Journal series spotlighting core pillars of the Manhattan Institute's (MI) work. The discussion, led by Raphael Mangual and renowned MI fellow Heather Mac Donald, dives deep into policing, public safety, and the historical and policy context that shaped New York City’s remarkable turnaround. Together, they interrogate the legacy of policies like Broken Windows, the dynamics of public order, racial realities of crime and enforcement, and pressing contemporary challenges—always with a focus on data, firsthand experience, and uncompromising clarity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Historical Context of MI's Public Safety Work

[01:36–03:55]

• Heather recalls the 1980s–90s "urban renaissance" when George Kelling and James Q. Wilson’s "Broken Windows" theory gained traction. She credits William Bratton and Mayor Giuliani with operationalizing these ideas, starting with restoring order on transit systems and later across NYC.
• Quote:
  "Without [public order], if you have crime, if you have teen mobs rampaging, if you have litter, if you have graffiti, you're falling down on your obligation as a city." (Heather, [01:44])
• They describe 1990s NYC as a city transformed—from chaos to a renewed, orderly metropolis—amid skepticism that police could lower crime.

2. The Power of Public Order & Broken Windows Policing

[05:15–12:16]

• Restoring public spaces began with enforcing "small" laws—fare evasion, littering, and loitering—which both symbolized and restored the city’s social contract.
• Quote:
  "There's no such thing as a purely violent criminal... Who says, 'I only hurt people, but I don't litter, I don't drive too fast, I don't break any other of society's rules'?" (Raphael, [07:49])
• Public order enforcement yielded "happy surprises": arrests for minor offenses often uncovered suspects wanted for major crimes, validating the practical booster effect of Broken Windows.
• Emphasis that communities—especially in high-crime areas—demanded action against everyday disorder, highlighting a disconnect between elite and local priorities.

3. Misconceptions about Broken Windows, Zero Tolerance, and Discretion

[14:49–19:09]

• Broken Windows is often (wrongly) equated with "zero tolerance" and mass incarceration.
  • Kelling himself lamented this "bastardization" of the theory.
• Quote:
  "You can say, we are not gonna overlook disorder, but that doesn't mean we are sending you to jail..." (Heather, [15:46])
• Police discretion is essential: offering informal warnings or pour-outs, rather than rigidly arresting every low-level offender.
• Critics from wealthier, less-policed neighborhoods fail to grasp the demand for order enforcement in high-crime zones, where public calls to police drive enforcement.

4. Race, Discretion, and Policy

[20:48–23:59]

• Much contemporary debate about policing is rooted in concerns over racial disparities. Policies to reduce bias—body cameras, paperwork, sentencing guidelines—have made little dent in disparities.
• Quote:
  "If you enforce the law in a colorblind, neutral, constitutional fashion, you will have a disparate impact on black criminal. Not because the law is racist, but because the crime rates are so disparate..." (Heather, [21:31])
• The panel highlights the unwillingness to confront the unequal distribution of crime and victimization, and the perverse outcome that the most vulnerable suffer most from under-enforcement.

5. The Social Roots of Crime and What Changed in NYC

[30:57–37:30]

• The prevalent progressive belief is that crime is rooted in socioeconomic deprivation and would be solved by more programs and services.
• Mac Donald and Mangual dismantle this with empirical evidence: from 1990–2017, NYC’s murder rate fell dramatically without any major shift in poverty or employment rates.
• The real catalyst: increases in policing, proactive enforcement, robust prosecution, and "CompStat" data-driven accountability systems.
• Quote:
  "What we learned in the 1990s and 2000s is that enforcement works." (Heather, [34:16])

6. On Stop and Frisk, Data, and Accountability

[37:39–46:10]

• The misuse of stop-and-frisk, and controversies over NYPD quotas, led to legal challenges and reforms. Both guest and host believe the official statistics were inflated due to perverse incentives—police would reclassify encounters for performance credit.
• Proactive stops, when properly targeted, are repeatedly shown by research to reduce gun violence and serious crime.
• Quote:
  "There's nothing you can do that is more important for gun violence than proactive stops... Hotspot policing... is intervening in suspicious behavior in high crime zones." (Heather, [45:09])

7. Chicago, Youth Crime, and Socioeconomic Myths

[46:25–48:00]

• High-profile mass shootings and youth "wilding" are discussed. The "lack of opportunity" narrative is countered by pointing out how participants flaunt valuables and weapons on social media.
• Violent crime, especially shootings, are argued to be the product not of poverty, but of a "deprivation of socialization"—the breakdown of the family and socialization, not employment or income.

8. Gang Databases and the Future of NYPD Policy

[50:45–53:43]

• With Mayor Zora Mamdani proposing to abolish the NYPD's gang database (citing racial disparities), both guests warn this would tie the hands of police, as a handful of high-rate offenders drive much of the serious violence.
• Quote:
  "Given that the gang database is not racist, it contains actual criminals, to strip police of a tool that allows them to figure out connections..." (Heather, [51:06])
• Violence interrupters—favored by progressives—rely on the same gang intelligence networks.

9. Mass Incarceration: Data and Myths

[54:29–60:07]

• The move to close Rikers Island (cutting NYC jail capacity in half without replacement) is criticized as rooted in the "mass incarceration" narrative.
• Both guests argue that U.S. incarceration rates are a response to extraordinary violence, especially gun violence, and that those in prison are not "victimized" by the system but are "lifetime achievement award" criminals with numerous prior arrests.
• Quote:
  "Prison is a lifetime achievement award for persistence in criminal offending. You have to work very hard to get yourself actually sentenced to prison." (Heather, [57:34])

10. The Core Function of Government

[61:12–63:16]

• Both emphasize that the fundamental responsibility of city government is order, safety, transit, and sanitation—not endless social programs. Investments, they argue, must be directed to the criminal justice system: judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and adequate facility capacity.
• A colorblind approach is essential for legitimacy; public order should not be subverted by identity politics or "race grifting."

11. Final Reflections, Principles, and Summation

[63:16–64:34]

• Summing up, Mangual recaps the blueprint:
  • Invest in policing
  • Grant appropriate discretion
  • Back police with prosecutors and an efficient system
  • Reject race-based distortions to sound law enforcement
  • Aim for "zero tolerance for crime," following global exemplars.
• Quote:
  "One shooting is too many. We shouldn't have to put up with that. New York showed through enforcement that enforcement works and you don't have to put up with violence." (Heather, [64:34])

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Giuliani:
  "He was the greatest urban visionary that I can ever think of that had a gut understanding of the need for public safety, of the social compact." — Heather, [05:15]

• On Public Order:
  "Public order enforcement is good for its own sake." — Raphael, [09:30]

• On Police Discretion:
  "Give the police some discretion to say, you know, this is where it's needed, it's not needed there. Rather than being sticklers for hard and fast rules." — Heather, [18:52]

• On Crime and Race:
  "Everything that's going on in the criminal justice system and has been going on for the last three decades is driven by race. Simple as that." — Heather, [20:48]

• On Socioeconomic Factors:
  "We proved in New York City and then in the country was that, actually, no... What we did was we added the number of police officers we had. Those police officers became more aggressive in terms of conducting stops, making arrests. Those arrests were followed through on with more force from prosecutors... And the results were what they were." — Raphael, [32:30]

• On Stop-and-Frisk:
  "I would hear from people saying young Caribbean males saying, 'I've never been stopped because I'm a good boy. And the police know that.'" — Heather, [42:00]

• On Mass Incarceration:
  "The only reason we are dismantling the criminal justice system is because it tells us that blacks have some really serious problems with regards to the socialization of young black males. That's a message we refuse to listen [to]. And so we're blaming everything else in sight." — Heather, [51:06]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• The Urban Renaissance and Broken Windows Legacy: [01:36–05:15]
• Mechanics and Justification of Public Order Enforcement: [05:15–12:16]
• Myths about Broken Windows/Zero Tolerance: [14:49–19:09]
• The Race & Discretion Dilemma: [20:48–23:59]
• Socioeconomic Arguments vs. Enforcement Data: [30:57–37:30]
• Stop and Frisk & Quotas Debate: [37:39–46:10]
• Chicago and Youth Crime Narratives: [46:25–48:00]
• Gang Databases & Targeted Policing: [50:45–53:43]
• Mass Incarceration and Rikers Debate: [54:29–60:07]
• Government’s Core Functions and System Needs: [61:12–63:16]
• Key Principles and Closing Thoughts: [63:16–64:34]

Tone and Approach

The conversation is rigorous, direct, and deeply empirical; both speakers share a sense of urgency mixed with exasperation over decades-old policy debates that never seem to fully resolve. There is the City Journal trademark of unapologetic candor—especially around contentious racial and political questions—tempered by respect for facts and for those impacted by both crime and enforcement.

This episode is an essential listen for anyone wanting a clear-eyed, data-driven account of New York’s turnaround, the ongoing challenges in public safety, and the core arguments shaping America’s urban future.