261: Montessori

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know – Episode 261: Montessori Release Date: July 2, 2024

In Episode 261 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanenberg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magby delve into the world of Montessori education. This detailed discussion explores the principles of the Montessori method, contrasts it with classical education, and examines its effectiveness in fostering well-rounded individuals. Here's a comprehensive summary of the episode's key points, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Introduction and Gameplay Segment

Timestamp: 00:08 – 05:06

The episode begins with a playful segment where the hosts engage in a live play of the Game of Life. Thomas Magby serves as the game master, setting the stage for interactions filled with humor and camaraderie.

Notable Quotes:

• A.J. Hanenberg: “I rebel.” (00:20)
• Thomas Magby: “You are one of this. So the thing is, you are one of the objects in the room that the couch.” (39:52)

While the game provides an entertaining start, it eventually transitions into the core topic: Montessori education.

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2. Transition to Montessori Education

Timestamp: 05:06 – 06:44

After the gameplay, Thomas Magby introduces the main discussion on Maria Montessori and her educational methodology. The hosts express their interest in exploring different pedagogical approaches beyond their usual focus on classical education.

Key Points:

• Introduction to Maria Montessori and her landmark work, The Montessori Method.
• Curiosity about how Montessori principles align or contrast with classical education.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Magby: “And since it's been six weeks since we've recorded, do we just want to start? [...] I'd like to hear some original sources on those, talk with you all about what you all think about them.” (06:20)
• Graham Donaldson: “Let's do it.” (06:22)

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3. Understanding Classical vs. Montessori Education

Timestamp: 06:44 – 12:20

The hosts begin by defining what classical education means to them, setting the stage for a comparison with Montessori principles.

Classical Education:

• Emphasis on original source materials and classical texts.
• Smaller class sizes promoting in-depth conversation and discussion.
• Focus on subjects like history and Latin.
• Pedagogical approach that aligns with the natural inclinations of the human soul.
• Utilization of the Socratic method to foster critical thinking and logic.

Notable Quotes:

• Graham Donaldson: “It means original source material, older books. It means smaller classes of conversation, emphasis on history being the backbone of all of the classes. We teach Latin.” (06:44 – 07:18)
• Thomas Magby: “So the Socratic method in the classroom is the teacher who has a destination that he wants the students to get to, but he has the students discover the road to that destination through the questions that the teacher asks the students.” (07:45 – 09:31)

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4. Introduction to the Montessori Method

Timestamp: 12:20 – 22:05

Thomas Magby provides an overview of Maria Montessori's background and the foundational aspects of her educational method.

Maria Montessori:

• Background: Italian physician, first female doctor from the University of Rome's medical school, initially pursued medicine before shifting to education.
• Motivation: Founded Casa de Bambini in San Lorenzo to educate underprivileged children, emphasizing practical life skills and independence.
• Key Work: The Montessori Method (1909), outlining her educational principles.

Montessori Principles:

• Prepared Environment: Classrooms meticulously designed to encourage independence and facilitate self-directed learning.
• Child-Centered Learning: Focus on individual needs, interests, and abilities, allowing children to choose their activities within set guidelines.
• Absorbent Mind & Sensitive Periods: Children between ages 3-6 are highly receptive to learning and development during specific sensitive periods.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Magby: “She starts out wanting to be a medical doctor more so than being an educator. [...] Her first school is called Casa de Bambini.” (12:20 – 14:15)
• Graham Donaldson: “The meme is that there's like you basically these free range kids who are able to sort of like flop around to whatever interests them.” (22:31 – 23:16)

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5. Evaluating Montessori: Pros and Cons

Timestamp: 22:05 – 35:19

The hosts critically assess the Montessori method, discussing its strengths and potential drawbacks.

Strengths:

• Independence and Self-Motivation: Encourages children to take initiative and develop self-discipline.
• Thoughtfully Crafted Materials: Montessori toys and tools are designed to teach specific skills through play.
• Early Development Focus: Emphasizes critical developmental stages (ages 3-6) to build a strong foundation.

Potential Drawbacks:

• Limited Scope for Older Children: Montessori principles are primarily tailored for early childhood, raising questions about applicability in higher grades.
• Moral and Holistic Development: Concerns that the method may neglect the formation of moral character and holistic personal growth.
• Implementation Challenges: Difficulty in discerning genuine learning from avoidance behaviors, especially as children grow older.

Notable Quotes:

• Graham Donaldson: “They may have done a whole bunch of research on how to build a clock, but all the numbers are misspelled.” (23:18 – 23:57)
• A.J. Hanenberg: “Montessori is almost ideal for building a society, but not a person.” (48:33)

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6. Practical Implementation and Teacher’s Role

Timestamp: 35:19 – 48:33

The discussion shifts to how Montessori principles are practically implemented in classrooms and the pivotal role of teachers.

Prepared Environment:

• Design: Classrooms are arranged with specific materials that guide children’s learning without direct instruction.
• Freedom within Limits: While children choose their activities, they do so within a structured environment that promotes beneficial learning.

Role of the Teacher:

• Observer and Guide: Teachers act as facilitators, observing students and offering guidance rather than direct instruction.
• Discernment: Ability to distinguish between genuine engagement and avoidance is crucial for effective teaching.
• Encouraging Self-Discipline: Teachers must nurture self-control and intrinsic motivation in students.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Magby: “Another common idea is a prepared environment. So the learning environment, it's carefully designed, it encourages independence, it's to facilitate learning.” (33:29 – 35:19)
• Graham Donaldson: “The teacher needs to discern when a child is avoiding the hard thing and going to the easy thing.” (47:26 – 48:02)

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7. Comparative Analysis: Montessori vs. Classical Education

Timestamp: 48:33 – 57:00

The hosts draw comparisons between Montessori and classical education, highlighting their differing approaches to fostering well-rounded individuals.

Classical Education:

• Structured Curriculum: Emphasizes the transmission of a cultural and intellectual tradition through structured learning.
• Critical Thinking and Discussion: Focuses on developing logic, rhetoric, and analytical skills through guided dialogue.

Montessori Education:

• Self-Directed Learning: Prioritizes individual interests and self-paced learning within a prepared environment.
• Practical Life Skills: Strong emphasis on fostering independence through practical tasks and hands-on activities.

Concerns:

• Holistic Development: While Montessori excels in practical and cognitive independence, there are concerns about its effectiveness in moral and emotional development.
• Balancing Freedom and Structure: Ensuring that children remain disciplined and motivated without rigid structures can be challenging.

Notable Quotes:

• A.J. Hanenberg: “Montessori is almost ideal for building a society, but not a person.” (48:33)
• Thomas Magby: “The Montessori method does have things directed. There is this chore list that I don't know if Maria Montessori herself put this together, but it's essentially by age chores that should be for children.” (57:00 – 57:49)

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8. Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Timestamp: 57:00 – 62:37

The hosts share personal experiences and reflections on implementing Montessori principles, providing practical insights into its application.

Personal Insights:

• Early Independence: Emphasizing self-sufficiency from a young age fosters confidence and responsibility.
• Balanced Approach: Combining Montessori methods with elements of classical education to address holistic development.
• Real-World Implementation: Challenges in maintaining discipline and ensuring moral growth within the Montessori framework.

Notable Quotes:

• A.J. Hanenberg: “My beef is partially what you talked about. That say... some of the hard things like memorizing Latin verbs until the kid can see the enjoyment and understands that it's coming.” (45:00 – 45:38)
• Graeme Donaldson: “My mom was a kindergarten teacher and one... she ran a daycare out of our house after school.” (56:18 – 56:59)

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9. Conclusion and Wrap-Up

Timestamp: 62:37 – End

The episode concludes with a return to the Game of Life, where the hosts humorously wrap up the discussion, reinforcing their camaraderie and the engaging nature of their podcast.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Magby: “But yeah, thanks everyone for listening, and we'll talk with you again soon. Bye.” (62:37 – End)

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Key Takeaways:

1. Montessori vs. Classical Education: While both methods aim to foster intelligent and capable individuals, Montessori emphasizes independence and self-directed learning through a prepared environment, whereas classical education focuses on structured curricula and the transmission of cultural and intellectual traditions.

2. Effectiveness in Early Childhood: Montessori principles are particularly effective in early childhood (ages 3-6), aligning with sensitive developmental periods to build a strong foundation for lifelong learning.

3. Challenges in Implementation: Balancing child freedom with necessary discipline, ensuring moral and emotional development, and extending Montessori principles to older age groups remain areas of ongoing discussion and concern.

4. Holistic Development: For a well-rounded education, integrating aspects of both Montessori and classical methods may address the comprehensive development of individuals, catering to cognitive, practical, moral, and emotional growth.

5. Teacher’s Role: Educators play a crucial role in observing, guiding, and discerning students' genuine interests from avoidant behaviors, ensuring that education remains meaningful and effective.

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This episode offers a nuanced exploration of Montessori education, providing listeners with a balanced perspective on its benefits and limitations. By juxtaposing it with classical education, the hosts encourage educators and parents alike to critically assess and thoughtfully integrate various pedagogical approaches to nurture well-rounded, capable individuals.

Transcript

[Thomas Magby]

Hello and welcome to Classical Games. You should know, my name is Thomas Magby. I am today's game master.

[Graham Donaldson]

As always, introduce your own episode.

[Thomas Magby]

And I am joined by my two compatriots, Graham Donaldson. Hi. And A.J. hanenberg.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I rebel.

[Thomas Magby]

Now, gentlemen, as you know, we've been on a little bit of a hiatus recently. And what I appreciate is that I'd given you all the assignment to study the rules to the Game of Life. And it took us a little longer than expected. Now, the Game of Life, what do you think the age again? You studied this very closely. I believe that's for ages 4 and up.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's a great game.

[Thomas Magby]

So naturally, that took us six weeks to complete. So appreciate y'all getting that done.

[Graham Donaldson]

You've been a little wheel and you have to, like, pay a mortgage.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. I think that is actually how the game works. So, gentlemen. So we're going to start our live play of the Game of Life. So, Graham, if you could roll your die for me and then let's see where you end up waiting for it. No, it's the Game of Life. I've told you that over and over. So no one can hear you.

[Graham Donaldson]

Two.

[Thomas Magby]

So two. Okay, good.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, the three fell off.

[Thomas Magby]

The three fell off. What does that mean?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, let's put that one away.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay. Oh, I get to roll again.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

One of my dice is having problems and the three is falling off. But please don't lose that three. It's silver.

[Thomas Magby]

What?

[Graham Donaldson]

Silver.

[Thomas Magby]

Ayyjayy. Can you explain these die that are just sitting in your room here?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If you wanna pass it to me. Is it already back in?

[Graham Donaldson]

No.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, so you have this die and there's like silver inlaid in that number. That's what's happening in there.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So they are.

[Thomas Magby]

Should we be using these?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, cool.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They're for using.

[Thomas Magby]

Great.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They have a guarantee.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, so you rolled a two.

[Graham Donaldson]

So I rolled again. That dice was a great point. The three threw off the weight.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

One.

[Thomas Magby]

One. Okay, so that means you lose, which means you're sitting here recording an episode of Classical Stuff youf Should Know with us. Two hoodlums. Much appreciated.

[Graham Donaldson]

For my life.

[Thomas Magby]

For the rest of your life, as a matter of fact, Both to your chagrin and to the joy of our listening audience, you find yourself at the age of. How old are you?

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm 40.

[Thomas Magby]

Man old. Okay. But happily married. And you have your little homestead out in middle of nowhere outside of Austin, joyfully working at Veritas Academy.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's true.

[Thomas Magby]

Aj can you go ahead and Roll your die as well.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Five.

[Thomas Magby]

A five. So you're doing great. You also find yourself at Veritas Academy. Sitting here. You are more joyful at the chance to be recording with classical stuff. You should know. Much appreciated.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So we're doing the same thing. I just like it more.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, you just are much happier about it. Okay. Well, gentlemen, let's see what happens next in this game. Graham, can you go ahead and roll your die?

[Graham Donaldson]

Six.

[Thomas Magby]

Six.

[Graham Donaldson]

Let's go.

[Thomas Magby]

You are. So I was going to make this be a negative thing, but I guess it has to be positive. So you are contacted by a number of competing schools in the Austin area, and they say, graham, we will pay you any salary that you want if you will come and work for us. But the schools that are reaching out to you, none of them are classical schools. Do you consider any of these offers any amount of money? Come on, Graham.

[Graham Donaldson]

Probably. I mean, they're not. I mean, like, if they're not classical, what are they?

[Thomas Magby]

Well, let's say off the bat, are there some types of schools where you're like, I would not go near that place.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess. How much freedom do I have to teach the class the way I want?

[Thomas Magby]

I want there to. There should be some kind of, like, pedagogy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Overall, there's a pedagogy.

[Thomas Magby]

So again, we're going to talk a little bit about Maria Montessori as we get into this. So, you know, you get a Montessori school that reaches out to you?

[Graham Donaldson]

Probably not. Why?

[Thomas Magby]

Tell me more.

[Graham Donaldson]

Actually, I don't know much about the Montessori school. I know all of the, like, memes and stereotypes about Montessori, but I don't know anything about really about the Montessori school.

[Thomas Magby]

Fair enough.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

How much money were they offering?

[Thomas Magby]

Any amount. You name the number.

[Graham Donaldson]

So I could, like, work for one year for, like, $8 million.

[Thomas Magby]

Why work for a year? I mean, I feel like you're not playing this game the right way.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I choose $1 trillion, and I'll give you, like, 10 minutes of my time.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. And then problem solved. So easily. Let's say that you're actually gonna have to sign a contract for some number of years, but that changes things. Changes things a little.

[Graham Donaldson]

You do anything for a year.

[Thomas Magby]

Fair enough. For $8 million, probably.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. I'll teach your crazy school for a year.

[Thomas Magby]

Crazy school. Okay, I want to hear. That's why I'm posing the question. AJ Italian Maria Montessori. Is that where we're going with this, A.J. same question. To you. You want to roll your die. So I can pretend that this. My question. Is tied to the game that you're playing.

[Graham Donaldson]

Please roll your dice.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Sure. We have to maintain this illusion.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay. One.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, my gosh. You're fired from Veritas Academy. I'm so sorry.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And I have to.

[Thomas Magby]

You need to find another job. Okay. And I'm assuming you want to stay in it. Okay, good. And all those jobs are taken. So then you're like, what's next? Oh, education is the thing I've done before.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

No modeling jobs.

[Graham Donaldson]

All full.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

We got plenty of people to take pictures of, man. It's over.

[Thomas Magby]

Weirdly enough, they only say that the jobs are full when you walk up to apply for them. So I'm so sorry. And you will then need to go and find another school. Classical schools. They're not hiring, are there? Are you open to working at a different kind of private school, different kind of PETA Goji?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I would have to see. I think it. You know, I think it depends. If it's like a boxing school, I would need to train first, but I.

[Thomas Magby]

Want to do a boxing school.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I do love to teach. I think it just depends on what I'm teaching and if I have control and if it's not morally, you know, depraved.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Or I feel like I'm teaching something that isn't good.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I think all that matters.

[Thomas Magby]

Let me think of it. This. So, you know, we're gonna. I've mentioned. We'll talk about Maria Montessori a little bit in part of this. I do want to hear your thoughts on the memes and associations you have there. We will be actually talking about one of her books called the Montessori Method, and just kind of a few takeaways from that and kind of what she describes as the Montessori Method. So we'll try and tease out some of those things.

[Graham Donaldson]

Are you trying to figure out where your kids go to school? Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

I mean, part of. Yeah. So my oldest is five, and we're figuring out education choices for us. Having been part of a classical education podcast for 100 years. How long have we been doing this? That probably would lean things that way, but it's led us into reading more about other education methods. And so I'm curious to kind of read some original sources on those, talk with you all about what you all think about them and see what you all think.

[Graham Donaldson]

Let's do it.

[Thomas Magby]

So I guess just because I'm curious for what you all think about these different pedagogies and since it's been six weeks since we've recorded, do we just want to start? So you all teach at a classical school in Austin, Texas, called Veritas Academy. When you all think of what it means for a school to be classical, what does that mean for you?

[Graham Donaldson]

It means original source material, older books. It means smaller classes of conversation, emphasis on history being the backbone of all of the classes. We teach Latin. The actual texts themselves are classical, so they're old, old books. And then the one that I've always thought of is it is a teaching pedagogical method that works with the grain of the human soul as opposed to against it.

[Thomas Magby]

I like that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Thank you. So, yeah, a conversation and then also a. It really does have, like, a master student relationship, apprentice style thing, as opposed to, like, we're all in this together, trying to discover it for ourselves, if that makes any sense.

[Thomas Magby]

Can you say a little bit more? So it's, like, directed.

[Graham Donaldson]

So, yeah, it's more directed. You. You have. You have. So you have the teacher acting as sort of like this dialectical sparring partner. So the teacher and the student are engaged in conversations, and the teacher is trying to get the students to come to conclusions about things using logic and reason. And the teacher is acting as the. The. The sort of. The counterbalancing force of. Of. Of dialectic. So, you know, asking clarifying questions, asking sort of penetrative questions about what's happening, as opposed to, like, so, you know, if we're reading a text, as opposed to me saying, like, AJ, what sticks out to you in this section of the story? But do not care. Who cares what AJ thinks? Sticks out. But asking questions like, all right, why is Hamlet doing this particular thing? Why is he doing it? Somebody tell me why. And then someone says, why Hamlet is doing this? And you say, okay, what's the evidence that you have for why Hamlet is doing it in the way that you've described? And the student sort of gives a reason for that, and you say, okay, well, what about when he says this kind of thing? And they're like, oh, yeah, so maybe he's more like this. And so you're having this. That. That sort of is the process of. Of the sort of, like, dialectical questioning that comes to the conclusions about something through means of questions. And so the Socratic method in the classroom is the teacher who has a destination that he wants the students to get to, but he has the students discover the road to that destination through the questions that the teacher asks the students. Does that make Sense.

[Thomas Magby]

So there's a place that you're trying to get to with this education. There are correct answers. There are correct views or interpretations, and.

[Graham Donaldson]

You want to get, probably more importantly, a correct methodology. So it's like I. I less care whether or not the student thinks Hamlet is someone to emulate or someone to pity. But the process of coming to a conclusion about Hamlet I is. Is there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. If it's just sort of like your gut impression, that's only him because he's like, you know, he just reminds me of my brother. That doesn't matter. Like, that's not going to be a helpful heuristic for the rest of your life. You can't just compare people to your brother. But. So then there is a proper way to assess the character in that example, if that makes any sense.

[Thomas Magby]

AJ Anything else you want to throw in there?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That was pretty good.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. You did okay. After a few hundred of these episodes. Hopefully we have an answer on that one. But even with that answer you're giving, you do want the student to eventually agree with something. Right. So it's not just that you have conveyed information to them. You want them to be transformed into someone who either appreciates these books or recognizes the good guys from the bad guys or understands how to read this on their own. Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or if you want to apply it with math. I think the best example of classical education in math is when Socrates talks to the servant and gets the servant to make pretty profound conclusions about the natures of triangles and squares just by asking him questions. Yeah, that's, you know, that kind of methodology, as opposed to saying, like, hey, servant, memorize these formulas and then apply them to circles and square squares and triangles is getting them to get that using questions.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. So then that idea of you're working with the grain of the student, that's kind of the Dorothy Sayers idea that you have these different kind of propensities based on the age of the kid and they're more open to learning certain things by age. Am I?

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess so, Yeah. I don't know much about. I mean. Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Do you mean something else when you say no?

[Graham Donaldson]

That's. That's what I mean. I don't know how much. I haven't taught younger enough grades. I've been. I've been with teenagers for so long that I don't really feel like I know to answer whether or not it really is a different stage thing. I'm sure it is. There's Things that first graders are more prone to want, ways that they want to learn than 15 year olds you.

[Thomas Magby]

Think more than of in a given subject. You start with the basics, you build those up, show the relationships and then get to conveying of them. Like the grammar, logic, rhetoric is within each subject.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Is that makes sense. Okay, well so then taking that idea of you're working with the grain of the student, or you're saying like there's a benefit to this classical method. Right. You think it is. Right. At some fundamental level, you're not building.

[Graham Donaldson]

Me up to some big gotcha, are you? Like, oh, you're actually Montessori.

[Thomas Magby]

I would love to do that. What was the one with critical theory?

[Graham Donaldson]

You told me I was communist or something.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh yeah, yeah, we're all communists. That's not true. Okay, so well then I'm just wondering how you would prove that an educational method is kind of fitting with the stage of a student. How would you know that the approach you're taking to education is either working or just in that statement of kind of matches with their developmental stage. How would you assess that statement or know if it's true?

[Graham Donaldson]

This is sort of a weird way to say it, that they are enjoying it and not that they're entertained. They may not enjoy it in like the actual moment of the difficulty and the hardship, but that later on they look back and say that was so good or that was transfer. I have a lot of key people, you know, because we teach seniors and seniors are often very sappy because they're, they're leaving and they often come back and they say like 10th grade English was such an important class. That was my favorite class that I've had. And I take that to. I mean it's very flattering, but it's less to do with me and more that I say like that to me is like the class where I feel like I finally, I have nailed like being able to teach those subjects in that sort of classical way. And that's why a student has found something like that to be really enjoyable is because they are reading the books and they're, they're sort of at, you know, they're, it's like the right age, the right books, the right stage of life. A fifth grader isn't really self aware enough to be really like knowing how important or how much they've been enjoying fifth grade. I think the easy thing is just.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Look what the kid loves.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, look what the kid loves. And it's sort of like, it's like a plant how do you know a plant is healthy and is in, like, the right environment? There's all sorts of environments that that plant could be in. Well, the plant is, like, healthy and happy and producing fruit. And. Well, there's. There's a human version of that that you can see in a. In a child.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Well, I mean, yes, producing fruit in the classroom, but you can even look at what they love separately. Like, little kids want to tell you facts they know. Like, did you know this thing about dolphins? They want to talk about that. They want to know facts. They want to get all the facts they can possibly have. They love reading about trucks and trains and looking at pictures of animals, and they're full of facts.

[Thomas Magby]

So you're tying that to the. Like, they want to absorb material.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They want to absorb material and learn. They're not making huge connections. They just want to know all the things they can possibly know. And then junior high kids start, you know, developing right and wrong. They want to tell you about connections they've made and systems they've concocted and, like, plans and how they've solved problems. And then when you hit high school, they want to express themselves. That, like, a lot of it is, I just want to be known. And so how you do that for kids is. Yeah, I think, look what kids typically love at that age, and you will find the place to teach them, which, from your.

[Thomas Magby]

You know, you've worked with high schoolers for a long time, so you have a sense for, like, what they're trying to do. They want to express themselves. And so then kind of classical education fits with that.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, just tell them I'm teaching you how to do this.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, yeah. Yeah. All right, so let's say. So to take your plant metaphor used at some point, so, you know, you know, the plant is healthy because it grows, right? You see it, you know, you water it, you give it sunlight, it grows. You kind of judge it by results. At some level. Like, at some level, you see what this plant has grown into. You see what this person has grown into. What if I told you that there was an educational method that was used for many famous individuals, many prominent individuals? What if I told you there's an educational method that was used by Jeff Bezos when he was growing up, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, George Clooney, Beyonce, Taylor Swift, Yo Yo Ma, I can keep my list going and going and going. Would that tell you anything about. Would you. Would that tell you anything about the underlying educational system? If you can point to many people, if at Some level, like, what people grow into is a sign of the success of a method or not. Does that tell you anything about the method?

[Graham Donaldson]

That it's geared to personal success? Sure.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Okay. There you go.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, I think it does. But, yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. I'd still like to know if those people are good or not.

[Thomas Magby]

So there's.

[Graham Donaldson]

How are their marriages?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. So we might be able to say more about their, like, popularity as opposed to who they are as a person or material success. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Like, they might have lots of cash, but I don't know if I actually want to hang out with Beyonce.

[Thomas Magby]

You wouldn't want to hang out with.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I'll be honest. I really want to hang out with Beyonce just for a day. I don't know if I want to keep hanging out with Beyonce, but I'd like to, like, even just as a.

[Graham Donaldson]

Story, I don't think she'd like me very much.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I think you guys would have a heck of a time. I think she would have the most fun with you.

[Graham Donaldson]

I think we. I don't think anything. What would we. What would we talk about?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And this is why I think she would enjoy your company so much. You're not trying to talk to Beyonce about what everyone else is trying to talk to Beyonce about. And I bet she would flourish.

[Thomas Magby]

There's something to you, like, not caring about that conversation. That would probably be refreshing.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like, she's from Texas.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I love this.

[Thomas Magby]

You studied up on Beyonce. Okay, tell me more. What are their Beyonce?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I want this to be. If you're an animator that knows us, please, please, please make this happen. Write this as a play.

[Thomas Magby]

We have. Who animated one of Graham's episodes from a while ago. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If you're still listening, shout out to you. That was.

[Graham Donaldson]

And I've tried to find it. I can't find it on YouTube because it's so, like. I think I remember the title.

[Thomas Magby]

I think we have it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

I think I've got it saved.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Didn't we post it on our channel?

[Thomas Magby]

I think we linked to it on Twitter on our. Our Patreon, and I think we liked it also. So I don't know if we can find that through YouTube, but.

[Graham Donaldson]

So anyway. Sorry, Thomas.

[Thomas Magby]

So the. I guess I expected you all to be more critical of that, but you'd say that it does tell you something about this method. If it, like, leads to successful people.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If you keep on making twerps, then I guess.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, like, can you really tie. Are you tying their success to the Montessori method.

[Thomas Magby]

And I guess if I hadn't said they all were Montessori educated at some point. Yeah, I think that's a good question of how much do you tie to the education they went through. And especially the way Montessori starts is that it's for little children. So it starts. So Maria Montessori, Italian, as you might be able to tell, 1870. We'll talk a little bit about her background. We'll talk a little bit about. But she's developing this method that's for kind of less well off students in Italy is where this starts. And it's really. Her book will either reference students age three to six or age three to seven. So we're talking like little kids. Six or seven would be like first grade. Right. So even that what we now call Pre K. This is around the time where kindergarten is being rolled out and becoming a thing. But yeah, so it is oriented toward a much younger age. Might be hard to connect your education age three to six to who you become as an adult. Is that.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess I was. Or some people like people could listen to our podcast and be like, Man, A.J. thomas and Graham are really interesting guys. And I listened to them. Oh, they all went to like Canadian American public school. Like that must be. You know, it's like. Well, a lot of our interests are in spite of that.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So I don't know. It's just. It would be.

[Thomas Magby]

But I think that's fair. It is a people. It's a thing people will point to. I guess the probably the main reason people, if you subscribe to a pedagogy, it's because you think it's right at some fundamental level.

[Graham Donaldson]

I would point to the fact that they're all part of the Illuminati. That's my.

[Thomas Magby]

For a little more on that. Okay. So there is this method. It's called Montessori comes from Maria Montessori already referenced that she's from Italy, born 1870. And she starts off not really. She kind of goes the direction of wanting to be a medical doctor more so than being an educator. She will go to. It's the University of Rome, their medical school. She graduates in. I think it's 1896 is right. And is the first female doctor to graduate from. From that program. And graduates wants to work in medicine. Starts out working in medicine but ultimately starts just has this. This interest in education that over time kind of draws her back to working in that. So between 1896 and then 1907 is when she opens her first school that's kind of building out what this method is. What we now call the Montessori method, though I guess I say we call it that. Her first book, 1909, is the Montessori Method. It has a longer name in Italian, but by, I think it's 1912, early 1910s. When it comes to America, it's called the Montessori Method. So yeah, it's her kind of trying to codify this method she's using for the less well off students in this district called San Lorenzo. Essentially what happened is that there were these public apartments that were put in place. A lot of people moved into this area and suddenly you had all these kids and they weren't going to start school until again, six or seven. But there were lots of kids around. They needed some kind of. The families weren't well enough to send them to some private school. And so instead Maria wanted to take care of them and to teach them. And the child is. The house is charmingly called the Casa de Bambini. And I believe that's the children.

[Graham Donaldson]

House of babies.

[Thomas Magby]

House of babies, yeah, House of kids. Which is just very funny. So, okay, so the Montessori Method, I'll reference this a few times. It's both talking about the underlying method of like, what is Montessori? And then also it's the name of this book. Graham, you made reference to having some kind of familiarity or like there's the meme of what Montessori is. You want to say more.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, the meme is that there's like you basically these free range kids who are able to sort of like flop around to whatever interests them. And as long as they can kind of convince Seattle in charge that they're doing some kind of like important into, you know, important thing of discovery there, they can just kind of like fart around, do whatever they want. That's always the meme that I have is that they're not, they're not held accountable to any kind of like output or any sort of like structure that they, they are free range now that maybe that makes sense. I mean, maybe that is the methodology and that makes tons of sense for if you're like ages 3 to 6, that's fine. But we have Montessori schools that go up to much older.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And if that, you know, so at some point.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So yeah, my meme is like, they may have done a whole bunch of research on how to build a clock and they built a clock, but all the numbers are misspelled.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, good.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

But they built something. Right. Like they, they built it. Yeah. But it's maybe not the best clock you've ever, ever looked at or the years.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, but I don't know what flea is.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're allowed to grow disproportionately in one direction.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And not in. And not in other ones. And so you've got these like, lumpy brains.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And they wouldn't choose to do the hard thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

They wouldn't choose to do the hard thing.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The hard academic stuff.

[Graham Donaldson]

You know what I really love? Do you know what like, really, I.

[Thomas Magby]

Would love to know.

[Graham Donaldson]

You know what really like.

[Thomas Magby]

Please tell me.

[Graham Donaldson]

Works within. I. I'm a visual learner, Thomas.

[Thomas Magby]

Thank you. Tell me more.

[Graham Donaldson]

And as a visual learner, I learn about society and emotions and stick to itiveness through games and through the medium.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Of the Sims 4.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. And. And so how I learn about what it means to be, you know, how I learn all the important things and math is like with Minecraft and with video games about teaching me, you know, to be a hero and how to overcome bad guys. So I'm going to play video games all day. And that really resonates with me as a learner.

[Thomas Magby]

Yep. And are you trying to say there's something wrong with that? I don't understand. So, yeah, I think. And that would make sense as kind of the meme of it of the kind of. Or a twisted version or like using those principles to. To bilk your parents out of more. To get more video game time out of them. But what Maria is doing. And I think what like I can't speak for all.

[Graham Donaldson]

You should never judge something based on its bad. On how it's poorly implemented.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I could see someone saying all those things to try and get something. And there's probably some of that. Yeah. But to an important. Basically I'm asking you to kind of direct where this next part where we go through some pieces of what is this method? So maybe I'll start with.

[Graham Donaldson]

So what's a day look like for a kid?

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, there's actually a schedule. Do you want to hear that? Yeah, I think you'll. I was surprised at. So the Montessori method. The book is strange just in that I expect.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Do you choose your own way through it and what parts that you want to learn?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, yeah. To choose your own adventure book. It was really progressive for the time. I really respect it. That would be incredible if you could get like a Charlotte Mason book that's like, choose your own adventure that'd be awesome.

[Graham Donaldson]

But it always ends with you. Like catching a butterfly.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. You have to go outside for eight hours a day. I think Charlotte Mason will be our next episode. I don't know.

[Graham Donaldson]

Charlotte Mason did not live in Texas.

[Thomas Magby]

She did not live in Texas. No, but. So if you were, let's say you're going to write a book on classical education. Maybe you would start out with like here are the books you should read or like year by year, I don't know, like these are the things they should have been exposed to or poems or whatever. Maria Montessori like this book is. You end up getting a lot of these like what I might consider secondary or like outside of education things. So when I think education I think the. I know Veritas is not a. It's not a full time school where you students are in class the full day at the high school level. Right. It's the college schedule. But like a typical school, you show up at 8 or 7:30 or whatever and you're there till 3:30 or whatever. Like and then education is what happens there. Right? Education is what happens during the school day in the classroom. And I think knowing that Maria is teaching these, these kids who just like have nothing else to be doing in the San Lorenzo district, she's very much more concerned with the whole person. She wants these people to be grown up into functioning human beings. So what she'll talk about all the time is she talks about cleanliness. She talks about bathing and clean clothes.

[Graham Donaldson]

She just sounds like their mom kind of.

[Thomas Magby]

Right. That comes up a lot. And she talks about diet a lot. She has this long. She has this chapter where she goes through. These are the kinds of foods to eat, these are the foods to avoid. She has a very funny.

[Graham Donaldson]

What were somebody remember any.

[Thomas Magby]

She loves butter. And so she has this thing where she's like bread by itself is no good. Bread plus butter. That's a full meal. Okay, cool. And it's just like pages and pages of that. So this is chapter seven, Exercises of practical Life proposed. This is the winter schedule is what it says. But she goes through hour by hour. So opening at 9:00, closing at 4:00, 9 to 10. Entrance greeting inspection as to personal cleanliness. Exercises of practical life. Helping one another to take off and put off the aprons. That's an important. They have aprons that they put on while they're in there so that they don't get like stuff on their clothes going over the room to see that everything is dusted and in order, language, conversation, period. Children give an account of the events of the day before religious exercises. That's nine to ten. Maria was, she was at least born into a Catholic family. I believe she was Catholic as well. But so it starts out with this kind of religious association as well, especially for the people that she's providing this education to. So that's nine to ten. Can you imagine spending an hour of like, I need to make sure everyone is like clean in this room. We're going to dust the room that we're in today. My three year olds. Yeah, okay, fair enough. Probably an hour might not be enough now that I say that out loud, but 10 to 11, intellectual exercises, objective lessons interrupted by short rest periods. Nomenclature. And since exercises 11 to 11 30, simple gymnastics, ordinary movements done gracefully, normal position of the body, walking, marching in line, salutations, movements for attention, placing of objects gracefully. 11:30 to 12 is lunch. 12 to 1 is free games. 1 to 2 is directed games if possible in the open air. 2 to 3, manual work. 3 to 4, collective gymnastics and songs if possible in the open air. And then she describes, she goes into more detail of what each of those things are. But that's your typical day.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sounds good to me.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

For three to six year olds.

[Thomas Magby]

Yep, I'm on board. So a lot of play. But there is this. Things are directed. There is an adult in the room. Well, I should be careful with my terminology here. So the teacher, I forget the term. I believe they call them administrators. There's a different term that Maria will use through the book. But the adult in the room is an observer to this classroom as opposed to a teacher or director. They will observe and make comments when a mistake happens or something doesn't go right. But take the example. If someone spills something in the classroom, the response is to say, should we get a cloth and clean that up? Not, you made a mistake, you did this wrong. Go clean this up right now. So it's more an observation that's offered to the child and then they kind of take that and direct themselves toward the child.

[Graham Donaldson]

Says, that's an interesting observation. I'm a go play.

[Thomas Magby]

They might be. Let's go through these.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is there a half hour for correction and discipline?

[Thomas Magby]

Discipline is. There's a chapter on discipline. But let me see if I can get the opening line of that section because I imagine you all will hate all of this. Discipline through liberty, I believe is the name of that chapter. Discipline must come through liberty. Here's a great principle which is difficult for the followers of common school Methods to understand how shall one obtain discipline in a class of free children? Certainly in our system we have a concept of discipline very different from that commonly accepted. If discipline is founded upon liberty, the discipline itself must necessarily be active. We do not consider an individual disciplined only when he has been rendered as artificially silent as a mute and as immovable as a paralytic. He is an individual annihilated, not disciplined. So you got a kid being really loud. You have not achieved discipline at the point where you stopped them from talking. Yeah, like, that's not. The goal is not to stop them from speaking. The goal is for them to be self controlled, to want to make that choice for themselves and to be like, again, a functioning human in this classroom. I'm not sure you all would disagree with that. Right. Like, even when you all are disciplining kids, it's not. You don't want them out of the room or like, gone forever. Yeah. You want them to, like, become a functional member of your classroom. So maybe I'm over. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But there is an element where, like, I do need you to hush up though, because you're messing up everybody else's day. So, like, those people, those kids need to learn. And if you are causing them not to learn, then there is an element of you do need to be quiet.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's a process.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, but then there's like immediate, medium.

[Graham Donaldson]

And long term needs.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, so that's the. So I'll be jumping around some of these principles and again, you'll get different lists depending on where you look or kind of who you ask. There is a, like a Montessori certification body that will, like, there is a version of quote, unquote, official Montessori. But there are also many schools that call themselves that, that don't have the certification. And I believe there are multiple certifying groups. So there's not like. Yeah, so there's. As you might imagine with this method, there are kind of many implementations of it. But maybe in line with this, you'll often see an idea that there is freedom in the classroom, but that freedom is within limits. The children get to choose their activities. You kind of have a space. A second principle is a prepared environment, which I'll go through next. But you have a space where the child is getting to direct what they're doing, what they're spending their time working on. But there are guidelines and expectations within that room.

[Graham Donaldson]

Presumably there was also, like, objects that were decided to be put in that room and things that were decided not.

[Thomas Magby]

To be put in that room. So let me go to that one. So another common idea is a prepared environment. So the learning environment, it's carefully designed, it encourages independence, it's to facilitate learning. The classrooms will have age appropriate hands on toys and materials that will promote exploration and discovery. The Montessori will say somewhere that the first aim of the prepared environment is to render the growing child independent of the adult. So you want the child to be able to explore in the space. The adult has thought through what's in that classroom and then the kid can explore and go after whatever they find interesting. So that kind of gets at the. You don't put Minecraft, you don't put an Xbox in that room. It maybe is the answer to that earlier concern of you only put things that you want them to be working on and I forget if it's one of the other. So something that Maria will talk about in the book, in the Montessori method is that the toys you put there are meant to prepare these kids to do something she talks a lot about, like this board with cloth on it with buttons and strings that kids will button together and unbutton that they'll tie together in a knot and untie. And the skill that they're learning again this is age 3 to 6, they're learning to eventually be able to dress themselves, which like at three they're not, they're probably not able to do. But through this practice of this kind of activity they're going to learn the practical skill of I can change my clothes eventually. But they don't realize they're learning it. They're learning it because a an adult ahead of time put that toy in the room, they played with it, absorbed something and then learned a skill. So on board so far. Is there anything here where you're like this does this sounds.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm on board. I guess I'm super curious as to like how it sounds like if she's saying this is from 3 to 6, where we get from 6 to 16 and how that why we think that or what changes, what doesn't change.

[Thomas Magby]

She expands it at the end of her toward the end of her life, I believe she starts building out. I think it's 6 to 12 is what she, what Maria actually works on. And then since then there are Montessori high schools. So it certainly expands beyond that. I'd say in general you would expect so it's not many of these principles will still apply. I'm thinking through them just right now, some of the tactile ones might get harder as you get older, just in terms of like, how do you teach calculus? Through you probably still could. And I'm sure we have people listening who teach math in a Montessori school. Let me keep running through this. Just a few other pieces of what you'll often see called being associated with Montessori. We've bounced around. This is probably the most important. This Child centered learning is a term that you'll hear Montessori education, focusing on the needs, the interests, the abilities of each child. There's not just this one standard curriculum that you need everyone to learn, absorb, have received. So the educator is. They're observing, they're guiding, but the children are kind of choosing the thing that they are going to work on. I don't think this is one of the principles, but a thing you'll hear is that you never want to interrupt the child at play. Maria has this whole thing about how the work of children is play. And so she'll draw comparisons. I remember she was in med school before. She builds out this school. And she'll talk about a scientist who's really engaged in their work. Flow is a more modern term for what we call this. But people who are really engaged, they skip meals. They're so into what they're doing that they don't need to eat. They'll just be totally engaged with what they're doing. And you wouldn't want to interrupt that person. Right. They are the.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're locked in. They're. They're. It takes so much time to get into that state. It's almost like, you know that if you break it, it's like you need to do another 20 minutes of just focus, just to get back there. Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

And if the flow is like toward a product. So I think flow is often confused with like the, like a Netflix coma or something. Like, they kind of look similar in that you lose track of time and are very much focused on what you're doing. The difference with flow being that you're doing something productive, you're doing something beneficial, you're learning, and you're gaining something from that time that if you interrupt and take people out of it, they're going to miss out on something. And like you say, Graham, it will take time for them to get back into it. So child directed learning, child centered learning, they get to pick what they work on, what they learn. And if your environment is prepared well, the thing that they're spending their time on is something beneficial to the kid.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right.

[Thomas Magby]

And so that's the. The adult has exerted their influence ahead of time instead of having to tell them, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.

[Graham Donaldson]

It always feels very sneaky. Not manipulative. Or maybe manipulative in the right way. There's always manipulation and teaching, but it's like, oh, yeah, you're totally free, but all the objects in there are like, yeah. Ha, ha.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, that's the.

[Graham Donaldson]

You're learning.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. I wondered if you would think about that, because, again, this comes at a time where we have. There. There is a broad optimism of what science will bring to the world.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

These. I didn't. I figured you would make a comment, so I saved this for now. The subtitle of this book is Scientific Pedagogy as Applied to Child Education in the Children's Houses, which is the thing that she founded. Scientific pedagogy. Like, it's this belief that this is the right way because we can observe the right way to teach a kid. Right. Which would then lead to there being one.

[Graham Donaldson]

It does. I mean, so the thing that I've always chafed a little bit with Montessori is that it does kind of feel like Jane Goodall and the Apes, you know, like, it does sort of feel like you've got the teacher, you got the observer in the lab coat and the patients who are, like, in the asylum doing their thing.

[Thomas Magby]

Sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

And so.

[Thomas Magby]

And that.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's. And that sort of comes back to the meme joke, which is that the kids are kind of allowed to develop in their own way, and they can develop their own, like, weird social pathologies because they're just kind of left alone and they're observed through this sort of, like, you know, Overseer. Yeah. Whereas in that classical approach, you are trying to have this imparting of a tradition from a generation to a generation. And I don't think that that is in the Montessori at all. It really is this, this, this. Or the only way that that comes across is in the objects and the things that are put in the room in the classroom. And. And if those things are all just like. Well, it's just like any. Any. Any curriculum or any sort of thing that's whatever is used to have to work the child. If it is just like Velcro, Velcro straps and like, you know, Captain Underpants books. Like, you're only. You're not going to have. You're not going to have that sort of depth of sophistication or culture or the child's not going to be initiated into a grand world of conversation. But they are going to be very self assured.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

They are going to have to be very confident in their abilities. But they are also. But they're not really like part of the conversation.

[Thomas Magby]

But don't you have students who. They receive what you teach them in class and then go do their own self directed. They read on their own, like, and they are deepening their knowledge. They're more engaged in this great conversation of, you know, great ideas. And they do that on their own. Apart from a teacher telling them, go read this book. Right. They kind of figure it out for themselves.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[Thomas Magby]

So I don't, like, I wonder if that's what this looks like at the middle school and high school level, if you're making available certain books. And then I don't know what it would look like to. It's probably getting over that first hump of like opening the book is probably the hardest part.

[Graham Donaldson]

And again, this is why like from 3 year olds to 6 year olds, it makes a ton of sense. But like, if you have, let's say that you, you only fill the classroom with classical works, Iliad, Odyssey, you don't even give them the options for a bunch of other books. And they're like, all right, I'm gonna try reading. And they flip open Paradise Lost and they're like, oh, this is tough. And they go and they flip out the Iliad and they're just. And they're like, oh man, I just don't like reading. I'm just not a reader. And so at some point you need a guide that knows the books to take you through it, to show you how to do it so that you can do it eventually. So it's like, A.J. you've done that Europe trip so many times and now you can take. Now you were the guide for your parents, right? When you, when we first read a hard book, I don't know, we, we probably all have a teacher in our mind or somebody that we were at that right age where we sort of saw how they read or we, we were sort of like, we, we tried to copy the way that they thought about literature or about history or about the discipline of learning and have tried to incorporate that ourselves. And I'm not saying the Montessori method, like, you know, neuters that ability. It's just, it's always given me the like the disassociated white lab coat and the little kids like playing with, with play. D'oh. And the teacher and the, the observer's like, oh, very interesting. And Writing on, like, a pad of paper.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

My beef is partially what you talked about. That say. They say they open the Iliad, right? They're not going to understand it if they just start reading. So they have to have some sort of guide. Now, I can either build that into the book by giving them a Norton anthology version or give it to myself. The thing is, aren't you just sort of doing the same thing? Like, okay, I put it into the. I give them a Norton anthology version for them to sort of check it out. They read the guide. Why not just have me give it to them? Like, what is what? Why? The only difference I can think is that the student has decided to read that rather than having to listen to me, and that that variation of choice. While it is good to have a student who is actively engaged in these things, it reminds me of something C.S. lewis talks about in the Weight of Glory, where there are some things that are a joy to learn right from the beginning, right? Learn how to play kickball. It's great, right from swinging that first foot, like, oh, you're like, oh, I'm bad at it. But this is still a game. I'm still having fun. That's awesome. Same with kind of like Minecraft. Learning Latin may be different. And especially going through the drudgery of memorizing verbs and the variations on verbs and all of those things, like, yeah, you might have a blast for that for about 10 minutes. You're not going to spend three days doing that. Like, you need to.

[Thomas Magby]

Do you think that matches with the description from before about that grammar stage of them? Like a child being a sponge, wanting to absorb ideas?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They. They do, but to an extent, like, no kid is gonna. They don't have the attention span to keep on doing that and to discipline them to do, okay, I'm gonna do 10 of these a day because I have a goal I want to get to. CS Lewis says, for some of those things, the joy comes much later. Right? You're not going to have fun the first two years of Latin. You might have fun the fourth year and the fifth year, and then when you travel to Rome knowing Latin, you're going to have a blast.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

There's a lot of things like that. Things that kind of suck at the beginning, but once you sort of get through the hard part, it becomes good. That's. That is the sticking point for me is there's a lot of things like that in education, and Montessori seems like a difficult way to tackle any of those.

[Thomas Magby]

So I think My Montessori again, more principles to go through. We can talk more. But Montessori is like the thing I want to be true. Like I want my children to be self motivated to want to read great books, to like come to me with like, papa, I was reading in Paradise Lost this one chapter. Could you explain to me what is happening here? Like that it is everything I want for what education will look like. But I'm not convinced that that's what it will actually be. Right. And that's where then I think you need more some type of push. You need some kind of person to assist in that. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Even in your example, your kid came to you to ask because he needs a guide.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, that's where I would wonder if any listener. So again, I can only speak to what Maria wrote in this book and she's only talking about early ages. I would be curious, like if you had a class that was like motivated kids who are reading Homer on their own and then coming to you with their questions, doesn't that sound awesome? Yes. Wouldn't you love that?

[Graham Donaldson]

So you are one of this. So the thing is, you are one of the objects in the room that the couch. So at some point. So you know, a lot of the freedom of Montessori is the child can do what they want at the certain time as opposed to like, oh, I got first period English. I don't really want to do English right now, but I got to go do it. Whereas at some point you say, you know, it's reading time, this is the reading hour. And sometimes during reading hour, the kid is going to want to come and talk to the teacher. At some point they're just going to want to come to read. The thing is you need that person to be, you need the adult, you need the teacher to be able to discern when is the kid avoiding the hard thing and going to the easy thing and when are they actually going to a thing that is really beneficial for them. So like if you had, if you had a reading hour and that was supposed to be a time when everyone is reading.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And that child is always coming and talking to you about questions they're avoiding. At some point they're avoiding reading.

[Thomas Magby]

It's good.

[Graham Donaldson]

And it's hard for the, for you to know if the child is really like asking you questions so they can go back and really get more out of reading or they're avoiding reading because it's hard and it's a lot more fun to talk to your teacher.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And that's just a Thing that needs to come with the discernment of the teacher. So you can feel that out in class. There are sometimes where a kid asks a question. You're like, you were asking this question because you want to stop what we're doing in this class right now and you want to derail this thing.

[Thomas Magby]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

And then there's a time where someone asks a question and it's like, that's an. That is awesome. That is a great question. And now we're going to stop what we're doing and talk about that. And it just comes to, like, I don't. I don't think AJ or I are perfect at knowing which is which. But it gets. But you can maybe. You probably got like an 80% hit rate, right? You know when a student's trying to derail. You know when a student is actually like earnestly wanting to know.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

It seems to me that Montessori is almost ideal for building a society, but not a person.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So. So say, I've got a Montessori school. Some of the things in my little class are metallurgy, working objects, right. So I got a kid learns to weld, learns to make metal sculptures. He's the best metal worker in three states. Right. Because he has spent his entire formative years playing with metal, playing with the torch, playing with all of these things that do that. He is well formed of hand, but he is ill formed of soul.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

What that key. He is. He's a great metal worker. He will be wildly successful. He'll make goblets. He'll make all kinds of things. Goblets. But when he say, carves a scene into the goblet, he's not gonna know what that scene is. Someone will request it. They'll send him a picture, and he won't know the reference of where that's coming from. He might have a horrible relationship with his family. He might be the kind of man who steals from all his customers. Is he successful? Yeah, he's the best metal worker in three states. We have a great city because of. Partially him, because he can make great things for our cathedrals, whatever it is. But he has a different need. Right. He's making lots of money. But as far as forming a soul, he has. He is going to avoid those things that are difficult. And in education, there are many. Yeah, you're going to have the kids that just read. But again, like, he will maybe be great formed of soul, but he'll be ill formed of hand. He won't know the good products. He maybe will be bad at physical labor. He won't. Maybe he won't dress himself. Maybe he falls into one of the stereotypical guy that sort of silos himself in a room with all his books and papers and then becomes like a horrible, crotchety old hermit that knows really esoteric things about the moon. Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

So that's my fear for me.

[Thomas Magby]

Wasn't lumpy the term that you used before?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, the lumpy brain. I mean, so, like, yes, I think we can all look back in our childhoods and say, man, there are things that I wish I spent more time working on. I wish I didn't quit piano when I was 6 or whatever it is. Yep, I got that. And you know, I wish I spent.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

More time woodworking with my dad.

[Graham Donaldson]

I also, and I always, I wish I had spent more time sort of like cultivating a love of more physical things. Like, like, I mean, like physical activity. Running, baseball, soccer, sports. Sports playing, that kind of stuff. Because I read, I have, I have, like, I've read a lot and I'm good at it and I've made my professional career doing it. But, you know, there's part of me that like envies the jogger who just loves to run or. And I'm sure there's like the CrossFit Bro that just loves the gym and has worked his whole life and he's like, man, I wish I could read philosophy. You know, there's this like, I think just AJ's point. He. We do want to have that philosopher full well roundedness of human life. And if we're sort of left to our own devices, we won't because there's, at some point there's going to be the barrier that we don't want to cross.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. And I guess it's just the question of how do you get that? How do you. Again, I just like the metaphor of the lumpiness. How do you even out that lumpiness? And is it you speak to that directly? You say, you child, are very good at metallurgy, but you are a scumbag. So we're going to do moral education now or when they come to the classroom, is it set up in such a way where the metallurgy is taken out or the schedule is adjusted in some way? And so like, the only thing to do is something else. Right. You. You either handle it directly or indirectly.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But even indirectly, like, take that metallurgy kid, take away his tools and give him the Iliad.

[Thomas Magby]

He's just going to be really happy, right? Like over the moon. No, he's gonna be really mad. Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He'll be angry that those are gone and he's not gonna read. So I don't know. Yeah, I think with certain things, those difficult things like memorizing Latin verbs until the, the kid can see the enjoyment and understands that it's coming. Like they have to be pushed, they have to be forced. You have to be forced with grades and that sucks. But for the hard things like this is where, when one situation where students need to trust their teachers and I try to communicate it to my students, like I'm doing this for your good. I can see the good at the end of the tunnel. I'm going to describe it to you. This is what you are working for. You probably don't see it yet, but it will be good, I promise.

[Thomas Magby]

Sure.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And then have him.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. You do have to be pushed. You do have to be forced with some, you have to be cajoled with some kind of grade or punishment. But then there also is a point where you need to stop and like allow the child to make the mistake of not wanting to do it. So you can't force them with a grade or with an assessment forever. And maybe it's just, you know, it's just natural that by the time you're out of high school and college, like grades don't mean very much. Right. And I, I, I wonder if it's like if 18 really is the right age or if it's a lot sooner. There's always been part of me that thinks 15, 16, that the last sort of two or three years of, of public education and like basically like 11 to 12th grade is kind of like.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They'Re already kind of adults.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're kind of, they're, yeah, they're in terms of intellectual capacity, like how much more ground are you covering developmentally with another. Maybe it's just even seniors, that last year of English, that last year of history, that last year of math. Is it, is it a two year thing really? And this is something that I, the longer I teach, the more I'm convicted of. The battle really is from ages 7 to 14.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, for sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean I think those first, those early years are very, very important. But like the battle is those seven years. I think those are the critical years of education. Give me a kid that's had great teachers and people that have really opened their mind to the joy of learning from 7 to 14. And I have the easiest job as a 10th grade teacher. And it doesn't even matter what I do. I just sort of like Continue the, you know, I just sort of continue the momentum forward. Whereas I think the critical years are, are those seven years of when they. Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

So I think I've always like the grammar school teachers at Veritas. They just do an incredible job. Like they set such a solid foundation for then what is built on logic and rhetoric. I just think it's important for this of the method we're talking about is oriented toward much younger children. And honestly I hear your point about grades especially for maybe a high schooler who needs to be goaded a little bit more. But like you're gonna gain, you're gonna.

[Graham Donaldson]

You don't need to grade a six.

[Thomas Magby]

Year my three year old on like whether he can like button a toy or not. And that's, and that's where I see similarity between what we would call the grammar stage if we think of it that way, just to just moving toward wrapping up. There are a few ideas, concepts that come up. There's this term called the absorbent mind that Montessori will reference. She has a book also called the Absorbent Mind. And it's that same idea of like these children when they're little, they're sponges. Anything you tell them they are, they are just holding onto that information very easy, very easily able to memorize, learn things at that age. This goes with another idea of what she'll call sensitive periods. I'll just read her quote. A child's different periods of growth and development are referred to as sensitive periods. It's during these periods that a child's development occurs in the most natural and effective way. So it's actually similar Graham, to your point about 7 to 14 being kind of key. She'll say it's earlier that the foundation actually is happening between three and six. And I don't think anyone would say that you're beyond hope if you're not sure disciplined at any age. But given the choice, why not sooner? Why not at 3 to 6, set up some self discipline, some self motivation and then that would make 7 easier which would then make high school eventually easier. Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

My mom was a kindergarten teacher and one but when my sister and I were young she didn't teach. But what she did to make some extra money was that she ran a daycare out of our house after school basically from like 3 to 5 when kids parents would pick them up. And our basement was set up like this kind of school where it was just bins of toys and everything was selected and there was nothing, there was no tv, there was nothing. It Was like there was books and blocks and Lego and, and, and the whole room was set up with things that were beneficial in that way and nothing was just time killing. And, and, and I real mom, my mom wasn't a Montessori teacher, but she was sort of in that sort of vein of, you know, that Sunday school vein of, of like the, the objects that you fill the space for the child to explore in all of them need to be sort of beneficial objects in that way.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And that was my life from when I was a little kid. Every day you come up from school from 3 to 5, your house was filled with other kids, which sometimes I didn't like. Okay, sure. But everything in our basement was sort of geared towards that kind of like play. And I think that's really, is a beneficial thing.

[Thomas Magby]

Especially kept to the sage. Yeah, like absolutely. The things that are like I most appreciate out of this kind of Montessori world is this is maybe silly, but there's this chore list that I don't know if Maria Montessori herself put this together, but it's essentially by age chores that should be children can do. And I remember looking at this when my first was born and thinking like they must have been off by two years. Right. Like they were two years too young to be able to be doing these things that are described. But I think it's this really good challenge of your kid can do more than you think they can. And they can.

[Graham Donaldson]

Can you give me an example?

[Thomas Magby]

Like I think I pulled up one of these lists. So they three to four, they can make their bed. Maybe that's not as surprising. I'm just looking 12 to 18, they can start fetching if you ask them for a diaper or for clothes. Yeah. Months. Sorry. Yes. Years. Yeah. Hopefully they can dress themselves at 12 to 18, but no, 12 to 18 months. They can take their dirty clothes to the laundry basket, they can open curtains. You can give them two options for clothes and they can pick one. They can brush their hair, they can brush their teeth with some assistance. They can start washing their hands, just things like that. And I think that orientation toward. I want this child to be independent and my job is to teach them to be independent is really healthy and good. And so this, this idea of that starting with these chores when they're little I think is really helpful. And that's a thing I associate with Montessori.

[Graham Donaldson]

And the child wants to do it too.

[Thomas Magby]

They want to.

[Graham Donaldson]

Every second born child wants to do what the, what their older brother or older sister can do they want to. So there's a. In such. There's a way or in some. How can I phrase it? It seems like the second born kid is wanting to play catch up, whereas the firstborn child doesn't really know any different because they always are the first to do it. And so, yeah, it's that memetic desire. Right. Like, that's the wanting to be able to do what other people can do.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That's one thing I appreciate about living with Stevie and Troy when they're parenting. They said if it's something that the kid can do for themselves, we won't do it for them.

[Thomas Magby]

Exactly.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So, like those kids did their own laundry, a lot of it. Those kids made their own food. Like they could see barely over the stove, but they were stirring the beans and like making their own nachos. And it was awesome. They were like these tiny little independent savages. It was wonderful.

[Thomas Magby]

So that's the kind of this orientation toward. You want them independent, you want them doing their own thing. I think is really helpful. It's not. AJ's point is a good, like it's not unique to Montessori, but it's like that perspective makes sure that you focus on that and see that the other thing that's like super helpful and I appreciate maybe this is silly coming out of Montessori is the toys that are Montessori are the best toys that they are. Thoughtfully. I'm sure there are poorly made ones, but most of them are beautifully made. They're crafted in such a way as to be training young kids toward a certain skill. Again, I gave the example of buttoning one's clothes, being able to dress oneself, flipping switches, pressing buttons, it's teaching them to interact with the world around them. But the kid learns that through play. And so just that whole class of Montessori toys, I think that's just a super helpful thing to. Regardless of whether you send your kid to a school like this. So two things I super appreciate out of the Montessori method, but probably makes most sense at this young age, like we're talking about. I would have some questions about maybe 6 to 9, but somewhere around this middle school, high school timeframe, it'd be like I would have questions about how that's implemented, but even that's beyond what Maria Montessori herself was working on. So that's everything I have. Anything else before we. Okay, well, well, you intro this.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

You got intro.

[Thomas Magby]

So let's go ahead and wrap up our game of life. Graham, can you go ahead and roll the die. Can you actually roll yours too? Who wins? I want to see who wins. What'd you get?

[Graham Donaldson]

A one.

[Thomas Magby]

A one.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Four, baby. Okay, so you gotta roll two.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, so. But I'm the. I'm the game master, so don't I win no matter what. A three. So, ayyjayy. You retire to your own private island with millions of dollars.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And I did a one hour of work and a trillion dollars.

[Thomas Magby]

You got a trillion dollars? Graham, you are fired. Didn't you get fired from your job earlier, aj?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, so I did, but I turned it around.

[Graham Donaldson]

I was highly sought after.

[Thomas Magby]

You were highly sought after, but.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Consistent failure marked you as.

[Thomas Magby]

But you know what? Even in spite of all that, you retire to your own plot of land outside of Austin, Texas, and life is okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Scratch out an existence with the no.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Hardscrabble dirt of Texas, since this is.

[Graham Donaldson]

Thorns and thistles by the sweat of.

[Thomas Magby]

My brow, which is what you do now, since this is the wrap up. Actually, since you're a one, Graham will be responsible for our Twitter, maintaining our Twitter account.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sure. She'll be last.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. So you will suffer by dealing with twitter.twitter or x.com clisk. Since I'm in the middle, I'll take email. So the guyslassicalstuff.net and Patreon. I mean, that's got to be for the winner, right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Patreon.com Classical stuff.

[Thomas Magby]

There it is.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Is that it? Or is that the classical stuff? You should know.

[Thomas Magby]

No, just classical stuff.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, really? That's easy.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Check it out for in between episodes and monthly AMAs. And you can, like, chat with. There's like, this chat feature where, like, all the patrons.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That's new. The chat feature is so fun.

[Thomas Magby]

So it's like all patrons plus us. It's like, really fun.

[Graham Donaldson]

We all send pictures of our pets.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, it's great. AJ was sending out pictures from his Europe trip recently, which was the actual reason we were off for a couple weeks. But yeah, thanks everyone for listening, and we'll talk with you again soon. Bye. Sa.