262: The Wrath of Khan

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know: Episode 262 – The Wrath of Khan
Release Date: July 9, 2024
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee

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Introduction

In Episode 262 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee wrap up their extensive series on Genghis Khan. This episode delves into the final chapters of Genghis Khan’s legacy, exploring his military campaigns, internal family dynamics, and the administrative strategies employed by his successor, Okadai Khan. The hosts blend historical analysis with their signature humor, making complex classical topics accessible and engaging for both educators and enthusiasts.

Conclusion of the Genghis Khan Saga

The episode opens with the hosts humorously contemplating the end of their podcast series, sharing a lighthearted moment about potentially announcing their final episode:

• Graham Donaldson (00:49): "This is the last one. The last Classical Stuff You Should Know episode ever."
• A.J. Hanenburg (00:54): "That we think if we sprung that on our listeners, we would get lynched."

They quickly reassure listeners that the podcast will continue beyond this point, setting the stage to conclude their discussion on Genghis Khan.

Genghis Khan’s Foreign Conquests

The discussion transitions into Genghis Khan’s extensive military campaigns, primarily sourced from The Secret History of the Mongols. The hosts provide a chronological overview of his conquests, emphasizing his strategic prowess and the expansion of the Mongol Empire:

• Thomas Magbee (02:17): "You can’t hear unless they become patrons."
• A.J. Hanenburg (04:29): "He has now united all of Mongolia. They are all under his purview."

Key highlights include:

• Strategic Withdrawals and Ambushes: Genghis Khan employs deceptive tactics, such as feigned retreats to trap and annihilate pursuing Chinese forces (05:50).
• Siege Warfare: The Mongols conduct numerous sieges, demonstrating their adaptability and relentless pursuit of conquest (07:02).

Internal Conflicts and Succession

A significant portion of the episode addresses the internal strife within Genghis Khan’s family, particularly the succession disputes among his sons:

• Genghis Khan’s Firm Leadership: The Khan maintains strict authority, often responding to disobedience with intense reprimands rather than immediate execution, highlighting a shift towards a more organized leadership style (16:07).
• Succession Debate: The hosts narrate a pivotal moment where Genghis Khan must choose a successor among his sons, leading to conflict and eventual agreement on Okadai Khan’s leadership:
  • A.J. Hanenburg (24:30): "Josie stood up, fastening on Kakadai's collar, and said, 'I was never treated by the ruler as different from you. How can you despise me?'"

Governance Strategies under Okadai Khan

Following Genghis Khan’s death, Okadai Khan assumes leadership and implements various administrative reforms to stabilize and govern the vast Mongol Empire:

• Establishment of Infrastructure: Okadai prioritizes building wells and postal services to facilitate communication and ensure the well-being of his people:

  • A.J. Hanenburg (49:09): "He establishes a postal service, which was kind of awesome."

• Taxation Reforms: To alleviate the burden on his subjects, Okadai reduces taxes by allocating minimal resources to his royal table, ensuring the populace remains content:

  • A.J. Hanenburg (49:33): "He takes one sheep from every flock... one cow from every hundred... to be his isuk mares."

• Administrative Oversight: By appointing loyal overseers in conquered cities and relocating rulers, Okadai minimizes the risk of rebellions and maintains control over the empire:

  • Graham Donaldson (36:10): "Isn’t this like Machiavelli? You send some of your best people to go live there and build ties."

Insights on Mongol Empire’s Administration

The hosts reflect on the effectiveness of Okadai Khan’s governance, drawing parallels to contemporary administrative theories:

• Centralized Authority vs. Personal Leadership: The transition from Genghis Khan’s personally driven leadership to Okadai’s bureaucratic approach illustrates the challenges of governing an expansive empire:

  • Graham Donaldson (19:11): "It's the difference between Genghis is killing you and the Genghis bureaucratic machine of government is killing you."

• Sustainable Governance Practices: Okadai’s initiatives, such as the postal service and moderate taxation, demonstrate early forms of sustainable governance aimed at long-term stability rather than mere expansion.

Final Remarks and Reflections

As the episode concludes, the hosts recap Okadai Khan’s achievements and the eventual decline of the Mongol Empire after his death (41:18). They humorously engage in a mock discussion about potentially editing podcast content and promoting their Patreon, maintaining their engaging and personable hosting style:

• Thomas Magby (43:07): "We need some regulations... like, sanitation or something."
• A.J. Hanenburg (56:24): "Our Patreon’s kind of hopping these days."

The episode wraps up with a reflection on the complex legacy of Genghis Khan and Okadai Khan, highlighting the blend of military might and administrative ingenuity that defined the Mongol Empire.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Graham Donaldson (00:49): "This is the last one. The last Classical Stuff You Should Know episode ever."
• A.J. Hanenburg (16:07): "His poor, wonderful, humble Graham is now taking that as, you know, I'm not humble."
• A.J. Hanenburg (24:30): "Josie stood up, fastening on Kakadai's collar, and said, 'I was never treated by the ruler as different from you. How can you despise me?'"
• Graham Donaldson (19:11): "It's the difference between Genghis is killing you and the Genghis bureaucratic machine of government is killing you."
• A.J. Hanenburg (49:09): "He establishes a postal service, which was kind of awesome."

Conclusion

Episode 262 of Classical Stuff You Should Know provides a comprehensive and entertaining wrap-up of Genghis Khan's saga, transitioning smoothly into the governance strategies of Okadai Khan. The hosts successfully blend detailed historical narratives with their unique humor, offering listeners both educational insights and engaging storytelling. This episode serves as a fitting conclusion to the series, encapsulating the rise and administrative complexities of one of history's most formidable empires.

Transcript

[AJ Hanneberg]

Foreign.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff, you Should know. A podcast about classical education, the classical world, old books, old ideas, and that kind of jazz. Incredible. My name is Graham Donaldson, and I am with my buddies, my bros, my brothers, AJ Hanneberg.

[AJ Hanneberg]

You're Bruvs. Bruvs.

[Graham Donaldson]

AJ Hanneberg.

[AJ Hanneberg]

That's me.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Thomas Magby.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Hello.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yep. And we are back after a little bit of a hiatus. Although we had an episode last week. For those of you who are in the real world, to us, it feels like. But to us, it feels like we're just back.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yep.

[Graham Donaldson]

And aj, we're doing it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

This is it.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

This is the last one.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is the last one. The last Classical Stuff youf Should Know episode ever.

[AJ Hanneberg]

That we think if we sprung that on our listeners, we would get lynched.

[Graham Donaldson]

Think so?

[AJ Hanneberg]

We have to. I think we have to prepare him for it and just say, we got 10 more.

[Graham Donaldson]

Are we going to do what other podcasts do is we just, like, stop posting. And then people like, hey, they dead. And then. We're not going to do that. I'm just.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, my gosh. Why are we talking about this right now?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, we're never doing that.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

But, aj, we. When I'm. We are getting to the end of the Genghis Khan saga.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Saga.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, the cycle. The.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I like cycle. Let's go with that.

[Graham Donaldson]

The Genghis Khan. What are the words? Do the con side. The. The Khan cycle.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sounds like a math equation.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

For a scientific phenomena.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or like a hermetic text.

[AJ Hanneberg]

The Khan cycle. Oh, I like that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'd worship that triangle.

[Thomas Magby]

Incredible.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anyway, I wouldn't. I don't worship triangles, except. Unless you're talking about the Trinity.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, we got there.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Well, this has been classical stuff. You should know. Yeah. All right, so this is the end of my.

[Graham Donaldson]

We should do an episode on hermeticism. Sorry.

[AJ Hanneberg]

That's fine.

[Graham Donaldson]

Thank you.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Graham.

[Graham Donaldson]

I need to stop interrupting. It's.

[AJ Hanneberg]

No, it's fine. I didn't. What I said earlier was not in. What is it? Condemnation.

[Graham Donaldson]

You told me. I finished your sentences.

[AJ Hanneberg]

But you do. Sometimes you do. Because you know me so well. And then you actually finished my sentence. So basically you were saving us time. And then I got snarky about it. We're talking about an AMA listener that most of the listeners that you can't.

[Thomas Magby]

Hear unless they become patrons.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Unless you become a patron. But we were arguing, and we were arguing about Taylor Swift, of all things. And he. I said, I'm Reluctant to. And he. He says, yeah, we all know. And I was like, oh, you're gonna finish my sentence for me. And then he did incredible. And finished it. And I was being snarky, and I apologized. And my poor, wonderful, humble Graham is now taking that as in, you know, I'm not humble.

[Graham Donaldson]

It is a rude thing for me to do is to interrupt, and I apologize.

[AJ Hanneberg]

See, that's. That's humility. Just taking the air right there. Okay. So anyway, I apologize, Graham. So for. We. We.

[Thomas Magby]

I have nothing to apologize for.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So this is great. You're great all the time.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, this is good.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Wonderful. Okay, so we are at the end of the Genghis Khan series. Now, if you're just tuning in, like, you might want to go back and listen to the rest of the series. There's some stuff before this that you definitely missed. It's a wild ride. It's like frat guys with swords for most of the time. So it's a bit of a wild ride. And I'm not doing a collection of historical texts. I haven't done a whole bunch of extra reading. What I am reading is the Secret History of the Mongols. It's one of the primary texts that we get a lot of our information about Genghis Khan from. Yes, there are other texts. Yes, there are other sources, other historians. This is not a collection of all that stuff. So there's a lot of stuff. I just don't know. But I am giving you this, the Secret History of the Mongols, if you ever feel like going to read it. It's pretty crazy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Did you ever touch why it's called the Secret History? Was this supposed to be, like, a hidden text that only special people could read back in the day?

[AJ Hanneberg]

I don't know. I mean, it was sort of a royal thing that they passed down for a long time. And I think maybe they called it, like, the Golden History back in the day, which is funny, considering how goofy this text is.

[Graham Donaldson]

Messed up.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, it's pretty silly in a lot of different spots. Like, people getting in fights and cracking each other's backs and then getting buried under a tree so their blood can haunt things. Like, it's a whole crazy stuff with coats.

[Thomas Magby]

People give coats back and forth.

[AJ Hanneberg]

People giving coats back and forth. And remember the guy's head that talked? Remember that guy?

[Thomas Magby]

That was a good one.

[AJ Hanneberg]

And they freaked out and stamped it because it was a talking dead head. That's pretty scary.

[Graham Donaldson]

Someone with Hondas.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Hondas.

[Thomas Magby]

What's that? The Honda.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hondas, Hondas. That's the only way I can remember it. Riding motorcycles.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, exactly.

[Graham Donaldson]

All across.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Anyway, it's a lot of stuff. So we ended last series with, I think, the death of Jamuka. I think that was it.

[Thomas Magby]

I think that's right.

[AJ Hanneberg]

In any case, opponent of the night guards. Oh, well, yeah. He had established a new regime. Okay. So the whole thing happened. All that to say he has now united all of Mongolia. They are all under his purview.

[Thomas Magby]

Let's go.

[AJ Hanneberg]

And he is. Yeah. King of all Mongolia. Now we're moving to foreign conquests. He's going to stretch out his hand and conquer some other folks.

[Graham Donaldson]

Buckle up. Hungry.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It's a short chunk of the book. It's not long. And then it touches on the reign of Okadai Khan, which is also a pretty short chunk of the book. And that's done. So a huge piece is actually spent on just conquering Mongolia. And it doesn't spend long at all on establishing the rest of his massive kingdom. I'm sure there's a lot of interesting things that happened, but we don't get a lot of it. Sometimes it just will blow over. And he conquered these cities, and it will just list a whole series of them. Okay, so foreign conquests, I'm going to take you through. I will skip things here and there. I'll also read some things here and there. But yeah, you're along for the ride. So in year 1211, very rarely does it actually give us years. But this one, it says the year of the sheep in the year of the sheep. And then we're told that it's 1211. Genghis Khan decided to ride against the Chinese. On the way, he took a couple of cities. He crossed a pass. He takes another city, and then he puts a guy named Jeeb and kwekke ba ater. I'm just.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm miss this. I'm going to miss this.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Kwee kukek ba'ater. Jeeb is going to come back.

[Thomas Magby]

Sorry.

[AJ Hanneberg]

We'll know. Jeeb.

[Thomas Magby]

How many people was that?

[AJ Hanneberg]

One. Okay, cool. Well, there's Jeeb and then there's kuikuku ke. There's four k's.

[Graham Donaldson]

Cool.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Kwiku kek ba'atur. And he put them as a vanguard. So they reach this canyon. And the canyon, like George Lucas making.

[Graham Donaldson]

A character on his.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, he just rolls some dice with consonants on him and then connects them anyway. So they get this. This canyon pass. And the canyon pass is fortified. It's very reminiscent of. What's that movie where the girl soldier mulan they have take, like, the pass. Yeah, yeah. So it's like the Chinese pass. They're trying to get through. They can't.

[Graham Donaldson]

Haven't watched it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So Jeeb's fellas are like, dude, it's fortified against us. Or, sorry. Jeeb's idea was like, okay, look, they're fortified. We don't really want to tangle with them in a pass. So how about this? We'll pretend to run away, and then they'll chase us and we'll kill them. And everyone's like, great. So they withdraw. The Chinese see that they're withdrawing and decide to pursue. And there's so many of them. They cover the highways and the ridges. But when they get to Huang or Zui, I swear, I probably mistyped some of these because I was in such a hurry to take my notes.

[Graham Donaldson]

We wouldn't know.

[Thomas Magby]

We would not know.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, I don't either. Jeeb turns around and absolutely demolishes them. And so why in the world would you ever abandon a canyon pass that you have fortified and, like, have the height? That seems so silly to do, but they do, and Jeeb just totally destroys them. The main army finally comes up because Jeeb was the vanguard. They throw back the Chinese, crush the soldiers of the Khitans, the Jurchins, and the Jewin. He slaughtered them until they stood, and I quote, like, rotten snags all the way back to the canyon. Jeeb takes the canyon gate, and then they basically own the passes. Right? Because they already took one pass, and now they own the canyon and they're moving into Greater China. So then we hear of a long series of sieges. Zhongdu and Zhang Ogdu. That's the name. And Jeeb go and besiege Tunging, and he lays siege. Doesn't necessarily take it. He pulls another one of those Jeeb ideas. He's like, well, we can't get this city with the siege. It's not working. So how about we run away? Maybe they'll chase us, and then we'll come back and kill him. They don't chase this time. He goes away. But six days later, after they're, like, all back out on their farms again and feeling good, he's like, surprise. And he's back. And then he takes the city. So apparently this one tactic works pretty well for Jeeb a couple of times.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay. So then after that, he rejoins the greater army of Genghis Khan. Now the Golden Khan of China sees what's happening. They've taken a bunch of cities. There's A bunch of sieges. They own both the passes. And he's like, this is gonna go bad for me if I don't do something. So he has an advisor that comes and says, hey man, we're gonna lose this. Like, this is not gonna go well for us. So why don't we do this? I hear that these guys and their horses are not well suited to the terrain, right? They've got some sickness, they're dealing with illnesses. Let's sort of let them weaken themselves and for now let's make peace, right? Let's give them one of your daughters, give them some gold, silver, fabrics, goods, and maybe we can get them to go away and they will scavenge, you know, spare us for now and we can make our move later if we need, right? Because right now is not the time to fight them. They're going to crush us. Golden Khan thinks this is a great idea. So he sends off his princess, sends off a whole bunch of stuff, and Genghis agrees. He takes the princess, he takes the deal, he takes all the things, and he's like, okay, you guys are our allies for now. You are still, I'm still in charge of you, but I'm not going to actually, you know, murder everybody. So he, he then rides against a group called the Hexi. And the Buddha of the Hexi also sees what's happening and he submits. And he's like, not gonna fight you guys. I will be your right hand whenever you call, right? So you call on us, I'll come and fight for you. Rock and roll, give you some stuff. It's great. He says, but we do suck at fighting. So like, like, you guys are really hardy and big and mean and we're not. So why don't we, for now send you stuff we have? So we'll send you some camels, some wool, some hawks, maybe some gold and silver and stuff. And Genghis is like, great, send us your things. So they send him the things and everyone's happy. Genghis returns home and sets up camp at the Sa'ari steppe. Okay, good.

[Thomas Magby]

So far, not a lot of conflict. Like, things seem to be going really well for Genghis.

[AJ Hanneberg]

They really do. Like, there's a lot of cities that are just like, ah, you're big and scary, sure, you're in charge and then give him stuff. And that seems like a pretty good way to like, if you're Genghis. Do you want to agree to these things, yes or no?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, of course. It's free stuff, right?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Free stuff.

[Graham Donaldson]

You have to risk your men.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Huh? Was that.

[Graham Donaldson]

You don't have to risk your men in fighting.

[AJ Hanneberg]

That's the big thing is I feel like with every time you run into a battle, you're losing people, and then you have to convince that city to fight for you, which is a harder sell than having all of Mongolia on your side.

[Graham Donaldson]

But then at some point you have guys that are like, I love bashing heads. I haven't bashed a head in a year. And then you got some guys that like, you just need to, you know, need to get them out there. You need to let them. You need to get let, you know, sort of let the engine run. You need to let them fight.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. I get the feeling that in the Mongol army there was room for that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Oh, they just bash him head zone.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Like, if you're like, I want to go take this city, you probably just ran it up the chain and you're like, hey, Genghis, how you feel about this? And be like, alright. And you just go do it. So. Or he, you know, if you wanted to go on a big journey, you could just ask and he'd probably send you. Okay. So they've got the Chinese, they fought against the hex, against the Hexi, and he's camping. But then a couple years later, the Golden Khan decides to hold some envoys back from making peace with a different people. So his envoys are going through the Golden Khan's territory. Golden Khan captures them, doesn't let them go on this journey to another group that Genghis Khan is sort of dealing with. That's in 1214. So Genghis is like, this is not happening. You guys cannot do that.

[Thomas Magby]

Wartime.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. Apparently he was in full rebellion. And like the Genghis, the Golden Khan, he had pacified him and then went into full, like, I'm never doing what you say kind of mode. So in, yeah. 1214, the Golden Khan put armies under the command of Illa Quada and one of my favorites, Qu, the hunchback, of course. So those three guys try to stop Genghis at the pass. That same pass I assume he had owned earlier. What do you think happened?

[Graham Donaldson]

They do the thing, they run away and then try to have them chase them.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh, no. They just got summarily crushed. Like. Yeah, I don't even think it was a whole like, fake out, Jeeb thing. I think Genghis came with his main army because that earlier when Jeeb did that, he was the vanguard. It was like a small troop. Now this is just Genghis Khan's full army, and he just rides rough shot over them, just clobbers them. So the Golden Khan finds out about this and flees and stops in the city of Namgang.

[Thomas Magby]

The whole thing about, like, the horses not being able to get across the land, was that not true? Like, are they moving just fine?

[AJ Hanneberg]

I assume. I mean, maybe they were dealing with some sickness or illness, but it's a few years later, they're not anymore, and they're clearly used to being in this sort of area of the world, so apparently it's going a lot better. He leaves some armies under the command of. Sorry. The soldiers he leaves behind turn cannibal and start eating each other because they're starving. Jeeb eventually breaks the canyon gate because they went through the pass. So Jeeb gets through the canyon and then forces back the soldiers holding it and rejoins Genghis Khan's major army. So Khan's kind of split them. He went through the pass. Jee went through the canyon, and they sort of meet again. So everything's going really well. This is the second time they've done this.

[Graham Donaldson]

Do you think you could eat a dude?

[Thomas Magby]

No.

[AJ Hanneberg]

No.

[Thomas Magby]

We just thought about this before. Okay.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I. I think it is hard to.

[Graham Donaldson]

Put yourself in that headspace.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Put yourself in that headspace. Like, I've never been starving. I've been hungry. It's not great.

[Graham Donaldson]

Would you eat me?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Depends. You ever see those cartoons where somebody turns into a big chicken leg? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking about.

[Graham Donaldson]

I probably. I'm probably tasty. I feel like there's good meat on me.

[AJ Hanneberg]

There probably is. And you know what? If we were starving, like, starving, and I would. I would say, hey, man, look, if I kick it first, I want you to live. You make a meal to me.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know. I feel. That feels wrong.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I would tell you to. I know you'd have trouble, and I would even reassure you, and I'd write it down so that you could show.

[Graham Donaldson]

People, can't you just. Can't I just die?

[AJ Hanneberg]

It's up to you, but. But I don't want you to.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. At that point, it's like, if I survive and, like, 10 years later, everyone's like, hey, what'd you do during that famine? I'll be like, hey, my buddy A.J. like, that's a hard thing to live with. I don't think you can.

[AJ Hanneberg]

You can paint that. You say, my. One of my friends gave his life so that I could live mine.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, it's very like.

[AJ Hanneberg]

And then I would haunt the crap.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Good.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know, like, just weird. Metastasizing your buddy.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, it's probably a little weird. For sure. And as I haunted you, I would sit across at your dinner table, and every time you took a bite, I'd be like, really?

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess maybe metabolizing is what I meant to say.

[Thomas Magby]

I was wondering how Metastasized. Sorry.

[Graham Donaldson]

Metabolizing your buddy.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, not great.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anyway, this is taking a weird turn. Well, you brought it up.

[AJ Hanneberg]

That's not. I didn't bring it up. So, yeah, those guys turned cannibal. Hold on, I gotta find my. Now I gotta find my spot. My notes again threw you off. Okay. When the Golden Khan left, he appointed a guy named Queda in charge of the city. And Genghis sent a few guys to sort of count up all the loot. He's like, all right, go into that big golden city. Take. Take accounts of everything that's there and let me know. Keda comes out and greets them face to face. And he welcomes them with a bunch of gifts. And he's like, look at all this stuff that you got that is now yours. One of the guys that Genghis sent said, look, before, the goods of this Zhangdu and Zhandu itself were really the Golden Khans. But now Zhang Du is Genghis Khan's. So how can you steal Genghis Khan's goods and fabrics behind his back and give them to us? I won't accept them. So from his view, like, he's there to just count stuff. And he's like, this does not belong to me. Right. This is not my loot to take. You can't give this. The other two guys he was with.

[Thomas Magby]

Did not feel the same.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Did not feel the same. And they took it.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So Genghis Gonz. Genghis praised the guy who refused the goods and then rebuked the guys who did.

[Thomas Magby]

He doesn't kill him.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So the fun thing is, like, earlier in this story, you know how Genghis was like, killing. Like, he would kill you if you crossed him?

[Thomas Magby]

Yes.

[AJ Hanneberg]

In this one, he yells at a lot of people. Like, a firm rebuke from the Khan seems like a very, very bad thing. So this is one where he just kind of. He just chastises them.

[Thomas Magby]

Do we know how old he is at this point?

[AJ Hanneberg]

I don't. Let's see. Maybe I can scroll back and find out. Let's see, where was he born?

[Thomas Magby]

I wonder if it's an age thing.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Let's find out. Google might help me with this. I know I probably talked about it. 1162. So he is what?

[Thomas Magby]

So this is 50 at this point?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Like 50 years.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

That's not too bad.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, it's not. Okay, so he's yelling at people.

[Graham Donaldson]

You're not killing dudes at 50. That's harder. That's a lot of effort.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, but you've got plenty of guys you can tell to kill him.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, that's. Do you think it's scarier to have a bunch of, like, if you're trying to intimidate people and you're gonna kill someone to do it? Isn't it scarier if you are the one doing the killing as opposed to like you tell your little guard to go do it? Yeah, like if you're, if you're actually getting down there and you know, doing the thing, I feel like that's more intimidating.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It is. But there's also a demonstration in power and just being. Saying like, your life is forfeit. And then other people make it happen.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess, I guess I feel like.

[Thomas Magby]

It'S almost like every so often one of them should be him.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Like Genghis Khan is doing one of the murders.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I think, I think the way it works is you have to be of a certain status before Genghis Khan will kill you personally. Like, I think, I mean, this is, this is the way I would run it probably if I was a great warlord. You had to, you have to have been a lord for me to even pay attention to you. If you are some random petty criminal, I'm not gonna lift my hand against you. I have better things to do. But if you were like an advisor that has crossed me, I'm gonna kill you myself.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, there seems to be. If you're in an honor based sort of this like honor based, kinship based society, at some point you need to have your leader be the one that's gonna swing the sword when he passes the sentence. Otherwise it's a little too, a little too cold and bureaucratic anyway. Whatever.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, exactly. Oh, no, this is fine. I mean like, I'm just telling you stuff and some of the. There's not a lot of details in some of these things. If you guys want to chat about random stuff.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, it's just my head's been at like when cultures transition from, just from the, the Plantagenet series. When cultures transition from that personal tie relationship is what holds society together to the institution and laws is what holds society together. That Difference between, like, Genghis is killing you and like, the Genghis bureaucratic machine of government is killing you. That. That's a different thing that has pluses and minuses. Or. Or it requires a different kind of. A different sort of expectations in society. And you just wonder, like, how a society goes from young Genghis doing the one killing to Genghis. Like, you're a line item on the massive chart of, like, bureaucratic things that needs to happen. And like. I know what's.

[AJ Hanneberg]

What's that poem? Is it the shield of Achilles that talks about how. Yeah, there's glory in the early. Like those early battles, but now it's just a bureaucratic.

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly. Yeah. It's just lining people up. Yeah, that's a W.H. auden poem.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It's great.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's. Yeah, there's just. That is the trade off of having institutions and having, like, big organized society is that it is less personal and there's pluses and minuses with that. I'm cooking up an episode with this idea.

[Thomas Magby]

This feels like this is still personal, though, because it does.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

The con is saying you will die. Right. Like, it's still powers in one person.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess it's like. It just sort of feels like it's. It's closer to that transition point where. Where the empire is so big that at some point that needs to transition than everything flowing in and out of the character of Genghis Khan. Anyway.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So as he's going after the Golden Khan in Nam Gang, the Golden Khan sees what's, you know, what's coming and decides to surrender again. He submits, pay some obeisance, and he sends his own son, 10 Gary, with a hundred other guys as day guards for Genghis. So Genghis withdraw. It's incredible. Day guard, fighter of the night guards.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sorry.

[Thomas Magby]

Fan of karate, Master of the sun. Yeah, that's it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh, champion of the sun, Master of karate and friendship for everyone. Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Incredible.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh, my word. So anyway, he sends those guys, and then Genghis takes it and says, okie dokie. This, yeah, if it was me and my enemies was like, here's these guys can guard your life. I'd be like, that chance.

[Thomas Magby]

That's crazy. But he accepts it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

He's okay. I think he took the guys. I don't know if they actually ended up in the day guard, but he. He accepted his submission. So on the way back, they march along the ocean, and he has some of his other guys, like other small armies, just submit. Cities along the way. So he submits. In the book, it's spelled Beijing, like B I, I J I, N, G. That sounds a lot like Beijing. So I think. I think that's what they're talking about, is Beijing could be wrong here. And then the Wuanu of the Jurchins, and he succeeds and takes those, and then submits a whole bunch of other border cities as they sort of march back. So then the Sarts rebel. They also hold a couple of his envoys that are traveling through his cities. Apparently, that's one way to signal, like, screw you, pal, is I'm not letting your mail get through.

[Thomas Magby]

I guess this is, like, a bad idea, because doesn't he crush every single one of these?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yes. I don't know how. Like, why would you pick to deal with Genghis Khan?

[Thomas Magby]

But you need, like, a ton of people to fight against his army, and this is just some random village, right?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. I mean, it's not. I mean, they have a sultan.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, right? There you go.

[AJ Hanneberg]

But still, yeah, I wouldn't choose to fight. I don't know. So he was about to ride off and fight when Yasui. Do you guys remember usui?

[Thomas Magby]

The name rings a bell, but she's a girl. Okay. Nailed it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So then. No, she had a sister.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[AJ Hanneberg]

No, she had a lover.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, is he the guy that was, like, hiding in the. In the.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, he was the guy that sort of hid as a guard. And then they, like, they're like, who's this guy named all the guards they knew and had them all go sit down. And he's sort of standing there, left, and he's like, I'm fine. And so they killed him. But USUI is still here. And apparently she became a great advisor. So she points out. She's like, hey, you don't have a successor. You're getting old. So which of your sons is going to take over? So Genghis realizes this is an issue, and he's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Oh, crap, we gotta deal with this. So before he rides out to deal with the Sarts, he sort of deals with the question of succession. And. Hold on, my computer decided to die.

[Thomas Magby]

And so he needs to pick one of his sons.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, I'm read a little bit of this debate because it's kind of comical what happens as soon as my Kindle app starts up. So how are you fellas doing?

[Graham Donaldson]

Great.

[Thomas Magby]

Feeling good.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm glad that I don't live in Mongolia.

[Thomas Magby]

1200S. Yeah, that'd be rough.

[Graham Donaldson]

Be kind of rough.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Not ideal.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I would Want to be one of those, you know, the forest people that it talks about in the first.

[Graham Donaldson]

You don't go there.

[AJ Hanneberg]

You don't mess with the forest people. They live in there. And we just don't go there.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, I like that. What's up with the computer? What do we.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It's deciding to like, reinstall my camera. I don't know, man. Well, is it happening? I'm sorry, guys.

[Thomas Magby]

No, this is good.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I think it just decided to restart and then I lost all my things. I, like, pulled up. Okay, here we go. Come on.

[Thomas Magby]

Thinking about it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

There we go. Pull it up. Yes. I want to edit this.

[Thomas Magby]

If we want to edit one of our podcasts. Are you out of your mind? We have. Usually it's because something inappropriate happens in the middle, but I guess we could do that for now. Like the thing with the radishes. That was something that got edited out from the. Was it the clouds?

[Graham Donaldson]

Did YouTube do that? Do we.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Or we edited that out?

[Thomas Magby]

We edited.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh yeah, I think we edited that one. Okay. Anyway, we're back. So he. He says, the eldest of my sons is Josie. And he goes, what do you say, Josie? Tell me like, do you want to be the guy? Do you want to be my successor? I'm just going to read you this. This particular section. I think there's two sections I'm going to read. And this is one. Before Josie could raise his voice, Kakadai, who's another one of his sons, there are four says. When you said tell me to Josie, are you saying that it is Josie who are you appointing? How could we be governed by this illegitimate son?

[Thomas Magby]

Thank you.

[AJ Hanneberg]

A foundling of the Merkit, Josie stood up, fastening on Kakadai's collar, and said, I was never treated by the ruler as different from you. How can you despise me? What skills do you have more than me? Only in being difficult, maybe. Are you better than me? If I were ever beaten by you in a distance shooting, I'd cut off my thumb and throw it away. If I was ever defeated by you in wrestling, I wouldn't get up from where I'd fallen. Let the ruler father make a decision. As Josie and Kakadai stood there grabbing each other's collars, with Borusu tugging at Josie's arms and Macawlay tugging at Kakadai's arms, Genghis Khan sat silent, listening. So these guys are just going at each other and he's got two guys trying to pull him apart. Then Koch, cuz the names are great. Standing on the left side says Kakadai. How can you be so rash? Your ruler father placed hopes on you among his sons before you all were born, the starry heavens would spin about. The wandering folk would raise a war. Never slipping off to rest, they'd take each other prisoner. The loamy earth would lurch about the kingdom whole would take to arms. Never quiet in their quilts, they'd hunt each other down like game. In that time we went not by our own desire. It was all but by the combat's chance we fled not by our own desire, it was all by the conflict's chance we went not by our heart's desire, it was all but by the killing's chance. You speak and you clot your holy mother's buttery affection. You curdle your mother's milky heart from a warm body. Was it not the same womb you all burst out in birth from a hot flesh, Was it not a single heme you all came fiercely forth hurt your mother whose heart gave you birth, her care will cool and your comfort she'll not allow wound. Your mother whose womb gave you birth, her resentment to relent, she'll not allow. When your sovereign father was founding all the kingdom, he tied his black head to the saddle. He shed his black blood in buckets. Not blinking his black eyes, not setting his flat ears to pillow. He bunched his sleeves for a pillow, he spread his skirt for a bed. He slaked his thirst with naught but spit. He gnawed his gums for nourishment as he moves forward arduously until the sweat from his brow ran to his soles. The sweat from his soles rose to his brow. Apparently they didn't know how gravity worked. At that time. Your mother was toiling with him. She laced closely her bach to crown. She fixed up her flowing skirts. She tied tightly her bach to hat. She belted up her billowing skirts to raise you all. Pausing as she swallowed, she gave half to you, blocking up her throat. She gave her all to you and empty went away herself. She seized you by the shoulder, she raised you as a man. She grabbed you by your neck. She fostered up a human child. She cleansed your figure, she trained your feet. She brought you up to a real man's shoulders, to a gelding's crupper. She aimed only to see what was best for you, now did she not? Our holy lady had an aim as splendid as the sun, as spacious as a lake. So he gives this whole side thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

Dang.

[AJ Hanneberg]

And it seems like everyone Ignores it.

[Thomas Magby]

So Genghis Khan, do they keep fighting?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Genghis Khan decreed. How dare you speak about Josie like that. Josie's the eldest of my sons. Does he not never speak like that again to Kakadai? To these words, Kakadai sneered and said, without speaking of Josie's strength or giving any answer about his skills, if she. He referred to him. He referred to Josie in the like the female pronouns. If she brings home what was bagged with a boast, it won't do. If she skins what was stocked just in speech, it won't do. Basically saying like, this guy doesn't actually do anything. He just talks big. The older of the princes are Josie and me. We will jointly devote our strength to the ruler, Father. We will cleave asunder those who dodge the arrow. We will cleave the heels of those who lag behind. Okadae indeed is broad minded. Let us consider Okadae. Okada is by the side of the ruler, Father. If he were to be familiarized with the great training of the hat, it would do so. The great training of the hat. There was like, I guess, two legends about this, apparently. One is that he said the highest thing in the kingdom should be my hat and none else. And so the training of the hat is like you have the authority over everyone else.

[Thomas Magby]

That's funny.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Another story, I think is that he met a guy one time who had his hat on a stick and was like praising it and dancing around. He's like, what are you doing? And he's like giving honor to my hat as the thing that I should wear on my hat. It's just some dumb thing. And he's like, I like that. So he just sort of took it. And so that's the training of the hat. It basically means being in charge of the whole country.

[Graham Donaldson]

How do you find a good hat?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, you want to dance around?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, it's just, you know, it's just you wear it, it just changes you.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Well, I feel like I got to read that.

[Thomas Magby]

The part about the training of the hat.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay, so it won't do the training of the hat. It's a metaphor for the exercise of authority. A traditional saying attributed to Genghis Khan and preserved in the 17th century. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Blee describes the hat as the ultimate symbol of authority. The holy Genghis Khan spoke in reverence. Let's see. Took off his hat, hung it at the rear of his yurt, and having bowed down to it that day, he feasted on grape wine until he felt hot and flushed. Here you go. This is the story. Similarly, a Mongolian biography from the time of the empire records how a Tangit boy in Mongolia, finding himself alone, took off his hat, placed it on his staff, and worshipped it with song and dance. When Genghis Khan came across him doing this and asked him, he said that as a man had to have something to honor, he honored his hat, thus practicing for when he would serve a man of high office. Genghis Khan was impressed by this spirit and took him into his service. So he's like, I got nothing to worship, so my hat. And now I have to go all the way back. Maybe I can actually go back. Here we go.

[Thomas Magby]

So they become interested in Ogedai instead as an option.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. So I guess as they're fighting, he just says, maybe Okadai is the guy. And then to these words, Genghis Khan said, josie, what do you say? Tell me. And Josie goes, the Kakadai said it, Kakadai and I shall jointly devote our strength to you. Let us consider Okadae. Genghis Khan agreed to act jointly. What merit is that? Mother Earth is vast. The rivers and creeks are many. I've decided, as the divisible rangelands are expanded, as the alien peoples are garrisoned, let me split you up. So Josie and Kakadai living, live up to your words. Do not let your stars be mocked by the masses. Do not let yourselves be hooted at by the herders. Anyway, it goes on and basically Okadai says, yeah, I'll. I'll take this. And then another son they kind of set up as advisor. And he'll come in. Let's see, Okadai, what do you say?

[Thomas Magby]

The last. The youngest son?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, the youngest son seated. Let's see if it brings it up. Yep. So one more son is left as advisor, and then Okadai takes it. So we have that sort of set up for the future. Okay. So they're done figuring out who the successor is going to be, so they are going to head off to fight the Sarts. And he calls in the service of that guy, the Tangat, who said he would be his right hand. Remember that guy? He's like, we will fight for you as your right hand.

[Thomas Magby]

The guy who's a bad fighter though, right?

[AJ Hanneberg]

I think that was the. It was earlier than that. That guy was the guy who's like, we'll come and help you, but we're not good fighters. This guy was like, we'll be your right hand.

[Thomas Magby]

Got it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

We'll come on in. So he Tries to call them in and a guy named Assagambo replies to Genghis and says, why did you ever become ruler if your strength was insufficient?

[Thomas Magby]

Whoa.

[AJ Hanneberg]

And refused. Genghis is like, oh, that's not happening.

[Thomas Magby]

Gonna destroy that guy.

[AJ Hanneberg]

He's like, but we don't have time right now and I don't want to split my army to kill him first. So we're gonna go kill the Sarts and then we're gonna come back for you. And so you better deal with it. So he's gonna go fight the Sultan. So he sends Jeeb, Subeday and Tokusar to go around the rear of the Sultan. So he's like, alright, you three guys, you're gonna go back behind him and then come in from the back as we try to fight from the front. And that's gonna be our plan. So Jeeb and Subeday do what they're supposed to. They go straight through. They don't mess with any of the cities. They just ride past. Well, Tokusar was like, yeah, I'm going to sack a couple of these. So he sacks a couple of cities, both belonging to a guy named Khan Malik, who then is obviously hacked that his cities got attacked. And he joins the Sultan in rebellion. So the army gets bigger. So they clobber through the front of Genghis Khan's army, Siki Gatugu, and gets all the way to Genghis Khan before the three guys, the three other commanders that were supposed to come in from the rear finally get there. They drive the Sartre into the river. But this is an awesome name. Jalala'uddin. The Sultan and Khan Malik escape with their lives. And Genghis Khan almost execute executes Tokusar for this. He's like, my dude, you almost got us all killed by having another army join in. But instead decides to yell at him a bunch. So he's like, I will yell at you. So he yells at him and there you go. Okay. Then there's you guys with me so far. Still conquering things.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

He conquers some other cities, Otrar and Samarkand. He sends to Louis to get Herat, Nashpapur, Sistan, Chang, Charan. He sends Josi, Kakadai and Okadae to get urgent. But they didn't set aside anything for Genghis as they took loot from those three cities.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh great.

[AJ Hanneberg]

He was not happy.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So he didn't let them pay homage for three days.

[Thomas Magby]

That's it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Which doesn't seem like a big thing to me. Like, you can't come and give me things.

[Thomas Magby]

And I'd be like, all right, sounds awesome.

[AJ Hanneberg]

But apparently, that's awful. And the kids were so scared. I think they were scared they were gonna be executed. Right? So they know this is bad. They know that they screwed up, and they are terrified. So a couple of guys come in and plead their case and say, hey, man, you gotta. Like, if you keep doing this, they're gonna get restless. They're gonna go fight for somebody else. You'll embarrass them. It's not a good look. You gotta figure this out. So he's like, okay, I will let the princess pay homage to me. But. And what do you think he did to him?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yelled at him.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh, he yelled so good. Oh, he yelled at him hard.

[Thomas Magby]

That was a good guess.

[AJ Hanneberg]

And to quote, he said it was so hard that they were to sink into the soil where they stood until they could barely mop the muck sweat from their brows. That's how hard he yelled at them.

[Thomas Magby]

He did good. Okay.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, it was a good yell. Yeah. Yeah. So he sends a few folks to Baghdad. He sends Subhadeba ATR to the 11 races of foreign folk. And this little piece is one of the most impressive chunks in, I think, all of these descriptions. 11 races. So here's the list. The Gangli and Kwipchaks, the Bashkars and Ruthenians, the Magyars, the Ossets and Saxons.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[AJ Hanneberg]

You should recognize that one.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, for sure.

[AJ Hanneberg]

The Circassians, the Kashmiris, the Bulgars, and the Carol, reaching as far as Kiev. So, yeah, they traveled as far as to hit Saxony. And the crazy thing is that when you read the Poetic Edda, if you remember that we actually talked about having interactions with Genghis Khan. Really, like, they. Yeah, there were. There were times when those two stories crossed. And even, like in the ancient stories.

[Graham Donaldson]

He had all of Poland at some point.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. So it just sort of lists all these places, like, he's sending people to Baghdad, he's sending people to the Saxons, as if it's just no big deal. And all these cities are really close, but they are, like, way far away. And his empire is massive at this point. And so the way that the narrative sort of describes it is it doesn't seem as impressive as it actually is and is actually as much time as it took. Like, yes, that was one part of his army driven by one commander. Genghis Khan was off doing other things. But, yes, he did subjugate a lot of those peoples and had Tribute coming in from all of those places. So he was wildly wealthy. Anyway, I find that really interesting. So as he mopped up the sarts, Genghis decreed that overseers be left in every city. Okay. So one thing. If you are going to have to govern such a massive empire, how would you guys go about ensuring that you're not going to deal with many more rebellions here? Like, what is your system? You've just conquered all these cities. What do you do with all the cities that say, yeah, sure, we'll send you tribute. How do you fix this?

[Thomas Magby]

Well, if you just said there's some overseer, is he going to send someone loyal to him to all these cities?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Sure. But can you? Yeah. How do you do that?

[Graham Donaldson]

Isn't this like Machiavelli? You send some of your best people to go live there and build ties. Build ties and start a colony.

[Thomas Magby]

I thought you said actually a bunch of people. Because then they get married to the people and they kind of get these deeper roots, and now it's not two different people. It's like one tribe altogether or whatever.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. So it seems like he does a few things. One is when he conquers a city, and if he doesn't like them, he'll split them up entirely. Like, he'll send them off as slaves. Right. No more people to rebel. Like, he splits them all up, gives them his gifts, they're gone. The people that of the cities that sort of submit, it seems like what he does because with the sarts, he actually sits with them a long time and learns their laws and learns their ways. He moves them. So he takes the advisors from one city and the rulers of one city and seems to move them to a completely different place and says, okay, you are in charge here now. And so, like, if he's coming in, removes some of the people who were in charge, puts in new people in charge that, like, okay, so if he came and took over my city, saw that I was smart, and was like, all right, pal, great. You guys have submitted. That's awesome. You're part of my empire. You come with me, and I'm going to put you in Oregon, and you're going to rule the city here. How is. It's much less likely that I'm going to convince those people to rebel, that they're going to want to rebel. Right. I'm not necessarily the face of his army. I'm coming from a completely different place. Right. I want to rule. Well, I'm not motivated not to. It seems like a good plan, right? If you move all the rulers around, they are less likely to sort of foment their own rebellion.

[Thomas Magby]

Makes sense.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. I thought it was a really good idea.

[Thomas Magby]

Does it work out?

[AJ Hanneberg]

It seems to, at least for a big chunk of it. So they send one guy to find the sultan in Khan Malik, who fled into the river. His name was Baela. And after seven years, they're still waiting for him. And Baela lost him. They lost the Sultan and Khan Malik, but he did plunder the Hindus on the way back. So that's good.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. Did some plundering, Got that cop, you know, accomplished. So then he decides to go and fight the Tangits again. This is just like we're just sort of expanding the kingdom. He takes Yasui and goes against the Tangits. In 1226, his horse Red Earth Gray is startled in the battle and dumps him on the floor.

[Thomas Magby]

Whoa. Really?

[AJ Hanneberg]

And Genghis Khan gets a fever. He gets really sick. They think about withdrawing. They're like, should we just withdraw and let Genghis get over his sickness and then come back when he's a little bit better? But they don't want to look weak.

[Graham Donaldson]

So they could have someone sucking blood out of him.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, not this time. Well, I mean, he's just kind of ill. Like, he's got, like, a fever, right? And so they don't want to. They don't want to look weak. So they cook up a plan, and they say, instead, why don't we send envoys and condemn them for not coming and fighting for us when they were supposed to? And because these were the guys that were like, we're going to help, they didn't. This is the. This is the Buddha, the guy who said, we're weak anyway, let's send an envoy and see how that works, then maybe withdraw. So they send it, and the envoy says, last year, you, Buddha said, we Tangit folk will become your right hand. So you said. And the Sartre folk had not obeyed their treaty yet. When I sent to you, asking you to ride with us, you, Buddha, without living up to your words, still less giving us any troops, lashed back at me with words, thinking to confront you in person only after we had headed in a different direction. We rode against the Sartre folk, and we were protected by eternal heaven, and everything in the direction of the Sarts was brought into submission. Now we intend to come and confront the Buddha about his words. Yeah, this is the Right Hand people. The Buddha responds with, I never spoke any words of ridicule. No, never did this assagambo remember the guy who did reply said, I spoke the words of ridicule. Now, if you Mongols have studied warfare and wish to give battle, I myself have land in Alassai mountains. Woolen tents, camel loads. So head this way to me at Alassai and let us give battle. And if you need gold, silver, fabrics or possessions, head over to Eregaya or Erigeu. So he seems very businesslike. He's like, you guys want to fight? Here's where you can find me. Genghis says, that's enough. How can we stand to withdraw and let him speak such arrogant words? Even if I should die, I would still be sustained by these arrogant words. Let us go. Okay, so they decided to go fight him. What do you think happened?

[Thomas Magby]

They win?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, he crushed him. Yeah, it's not close. So then the Buddha, the guy who Asaganbo, I guess fought with, came to pay homage, having been had the name Honest. And he brought a bunch of people, some servants, things to give. And Khan was not a fan, so he killed him. He did not like that. He didn't come and fight. He did not like that. He didn't respond as he should have. And he called him the victorious. And so now he's like, now we've made the victorious Honest. Wow. So kills him. Yasui actually gets a lot of these, I think, as slaves, like a lot of those gifts. In 1228, Okadai takes over. Oh, wow, I skipped over while Genghis.

[Thomas Magby]

Khan is still alive.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Let's see. Oh, I didn't even write it down. Yeah, he dies. Oh, here it is. I found it. I did write it down. Okay. He campaigned against the Tanguts a second time in 1227 and died in that campaign. That's about all we get about his death.

[Graham Donaldson]

He just died in the campaign?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yep. That's what the book says. He wrote against him a second time. And there he died and he went.

[Thomas Magby]

To heaven, hit by something like. We don't know.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It doesn't say. It just says he died. Yeah, maybe it was an undignified death and they didn't want to record it. I don't.

[Graham Donaldson]

Cropped himself to death.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, something like that, you know, I don't know, but apparently it was like. Doesn't sound good and. But it doesn't like that. I'm not, you know, obfuscating things.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's like all, you know, he's riding out, he's in battle, it's muddy, it's dirty, it's bloody and It's.

[AJ Hanneberg]

He's like 60 at that point in.

[Graham Donaldson]

50S, early 60s, that's. Yeah, that's a rough go.

[Thomas Magby]

So he just dies?

[AJ Hanneberg]

According to the book, that's the end.

[Thomas Magby]

And then his one, his son takes.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I feel like we should at least google how he died.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, I have a couple. I just googled it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

What'd you find?

[Thomas Magby]

So potentially malaria, typhus or bubonic plague.

[Graham Donaldson]

Friggin mosquitoes, man, they get you every time.

[Thomas Magby]

Marco Polo claimed that he was shot by an arrow during a siege. And other accounts say that he was struck by lightning.

[Graham Donaldson]

Dang.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay, so we have no idea.

[Thomas Magby]

So we have no idea what that sounds like.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay, well, he died.

[Graham Donaldson]

He died.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. Okay, so Oka DEI tooks over now. I'm going to put this to you guys. You guys just take over for one of the most notorious warlords in history. What, what are your first serious, like what do you do? You just took over for your dad?

[Thomas Magby]

We're going to battle. We gotta. I gotta prove myself. Right?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay, so you gotta prove yourself.

[Thomas Magby]

I don't want people coming after me. So we're gonna go conquer someone who came, who went against dad. And like he wasn't able to conquer. We're gonna destroy them.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay, what do you say, Graham?

[Graham Donaldson]

What's that line where like, if you know, Solomon was this hard, I'm gonna be 10 times harder. Like the. The stupid kid. I'm gonna like go big. And. And he's probably not as smart as his dad. He's gonna try to. He's going to overextend himself and be like overly violent and overly conquering and everyone's going to realize that he's kind of an imbecile and it's going to fall apart.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay, score is 10 in favor of Thomas. Let's go. So he does. The first thing he does is he decrees that all the firstborn of the rulers have to go into battle. So if you rule a ten, one hundred, a thousand, or ten thousand if you're one of those big rulers, got to send your kids. Okay, I think it's good. Gets everybody a little stake in the game, right? And then he wonders what everyone else is going to say of him. That he has not conquered anything and he hasn't contributed. So he decides, boys, we're gonna go conquer that Golden Khan of the Chinese. The guy twice has submitted, but still is kind of kicking around. So he's like, we're gonna finish this job. So he takes Jeeb, remember Jeeb, who does the like fake out, retreat. He's in the vanguard all the Time. So he's in the vanguard and he. He crushes them and goes and besieges a bunch of towns. So he does it. Good job.

[Thomas Magby]

He just gets the golden con. Like he. He wins.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I think so. Yeah. I think that's. Put together a conjured drink. Oh, no. Let's see. Okay, so not yet. So he starts to like, crush. Crush everybody. He's working on it, but not. Not quite done yet. As they're besieging towns, he gets sick and loses the use of his tongue.

[Thomas Magby]

Okadai does.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okadai does.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. Sucks.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It really sucks.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So the diviners try to figure out what's happening. They're like, what is going on? So they start, you know, sacrificing things and sacrificing people and conjuring. And they figure out that the gods of the earth and water of the Chinese are super hacked. That their subjects, House. Households have been plundered and their cities sacked. So the gods of. What is it? Earth and water not happy.

[Graham Donaldson]

You got. You want those on your side?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, yeah. So the shamans say, okay, what if we give you stuff like gold, silver, cattle and subjects? Would that do it? And the gods still not happy.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So they say, okay, what if we gave someone of the blood? Would that do it? And the disease relents. And so they know that they owe the gods, someone of the blood that has to be sacrificed. Meaning somebody royal.

[Thomas Magby]

Right?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Prince to Louis, the advisor was nearby.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, bummer.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So he says, he's sitting by when he hears this. And he says, when there were elders above and juniors below, the majestic father Genghis Khan chose you elder brother like a gelding, felt you like a wether and pointed out his great throne for yourself and loaded the teeming kingdom on you. While I am alive and by the side of my con elder, I was told to advise him of what he had forgotten and awake him when he had been sleeping. Now, if I lose you, my con elder, whom will I advise when he has forgotten and whom will I awaken when he has been sleeping? Truly, if you, my con elder, pass away, the teeming Mongol kingdom will be orphaned and the Chinese will rejoice in their luck. I will take the place of my con elder. And then he says some weird stuff. The salmon spine I slashed the sturgeon spine I shattered the vanguard men I vanquished the flankings. Once I fought him fair of face, him firm of frame is me. Shamans chant and conjure. He's like, bring it, boys. I'm ready to be sacrificed. They conjure together a drink. I don't know how that works. They conjure a drink. He drinks it and says, so this is poison. I'm fairly certain he says, I am drunk. And when my drunkenness is relieved, and as your orphaned little ones and juniors and your widowed little sister in law berud come to mind. So he's talking to Okadae. Let the con elder decide how he will take care of them. Whatever I have to say, I've spoken. I am drunk. And then he died.

[Thomas Magby]

Wow.

[Graham Donaldson]

Dang.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. So he's like, when you think of my kids and my wife, like you figured out, you figure out how to deal with them, but I'm taking your place.

[Thomas Magby]

So Ogedai is like, aware of all this happening?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. He just lost control of his tongue.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yes.

[Thomas Magby]

But this cures him. Like, he's fine now. He's fine after this. Okay.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. And then they go and they actually do wipe out the Golden Khan. And they give him the nickname slave boy, which is not flattering.

[Thomas Magby]

To the Golden Con.

[AJ Hanneberg]

To the Golden Khan. And they plunder all of his gold and stuff. And then there's a dispute between some guys who helped Subedi conquer the Saxons. I'm not sure I really want to go into it. Basically, one decides to drink the ceremonial wine first, and the other guys are like this bullcrap. And they all leave and start talking about how they're gonna mess him up. And then it gets to the con and he says, you know, this whole seniority thing. Anyway, they figure out that field things like field problems should be solved in the field and home problems solved in the home. He's like, that's what Genghis said. Like, if we have a problem in the field, we're going to solve it in the field. So let them solve their problem over there, and I'll solve the problem that actually affects us at home. Kind of a good deal. So then he says he comes up with some new laws to give to the kingdom. Now you've taken over, what do you guys want to do to help establish this kingdom, this brand new empire that you have just taken over? What laws do you put in place?

[Thomas Magby]

I have no idea.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, maybe, you know, sanitation or something, along with lines of maybe some. Some bureaucracies that'll help. Like, I don't know, like. Like a census. Let's do a census. Do some laws around, like where you live and. And for tax records and that kind of stuff.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, don't I want to, like, make everyone happy with me? I don't know if this counts as policy, but I want to, like, give money away. Like I want people or lower taxes or.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Like, I just want people. I want to do a thing that people will like.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I think I have to give you guys points each.

[Thomas Magby]

Yes, let's go.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, okay, hold on. I also get to get the last thing I'm gonna read. Okay, so point each. So you said sanitation. One of the things he does is he says, well, we got some big deserts to cross. Like they've been in Baghdad, right? They got some stuff to do. So he says, all right, you, my, like builders are going to go and dig wells in the desert. We need to make it safe to cross for our people. So he actually institutes a whole bunch of wells. That's one thing he did. I wonder if you can still find those. That would be awesome if you could, I don't know, like a Genghis, an okadai con. Well, that'd be pretty cool. So that's one thing he did. And you said make the people happy with you, right?

[Thomas Magby]

I said that, yep.

[AJ Hanneberg]

So one of the things he realized is that the, the kingdom, like his, his royal table was incredibly taxing to the people. He's like, that's not great. I don't want to burden everybody because I feast a lot and eat a lot and I have a lot of people to take care of. So what I'm going to do is we'll take one sheep from every flock and I think meaning 100 a two year old for the cons table and one sheep from every hundred should go to the poor.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, right. That's great.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Which is kind of awesome. And everyone is like, you know what? It's like, that's what, 2% of my flock. That's not bad, right? I can deal with 2%. Servant was like, cool. And he eats well and his servants eat well. And everybody else is happy because he's not taxing them too heavily. He does the same thing with the cows. He gets one cow from every hundred to be his, you know, isuk mares, right? You know, the like milk they drink all the time. And it seemed like what he actually wanted to do was take them with the promise to replace them. So he takes them into his own herds. I think after they gave birth a couple of times, he replaced the ones he had taken for the people that he had originally taken, which was kind of fantastic. And then he appointed people to be in charge of that. And now his isuk needs are seemingly completely taken care of and not a burden to the people at all. Which is really kind of awesome. The other thing he did that was really cool is establish a postal service.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh really?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. He's like, right now the envoys are riding all over the flipping country and it's ridiculous. Right? They're meandering wherever they want to go and whatever they said they want to go to. And I guess right now if I wanted to send a message from one end to the other, I had one writer go that whole distance. Right? That's ridiculous. They're crisscrossing all over. It's really inefficient. So they built up writer services and roads in between the great like Mongol postal service. And there was about. It seemed like there were 20 riders per city. And so if I wanted to send something, I find a writer, he rides it to the next city and then on it goes. So they had. He established a postal service which was kind of awesome. The last little bit. And I know this is a huge kind of like buzzkill is regulations. I'm not going to read these but regulations about his night guards and day guards again. We already did that once. But he's basically reaffirming all of it and then setting people up and all the whole thing. I did want to read. And this is the very last of the book. It's Oka de Khan's final self assessment. This is what he says of his own rule.

[Graham Donaldson]

He has his own. He's a little self assessment. Little report card for himself.

[AJ Hanneberg]

He does little. 360 review exceeded expectations KPI' and it's kind of awesome. And this is the very last thing. There's one more thing that basically says and he died.

[Graham Donaldson]

What are his key performances?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh, it's like when they wrote it. When they write it. That's it. Okay. So this is his self assessment. Okadai Khan said, I have sat on the great throne of my confather. And what I've accomplished after the confather is I campaigned against the people of China and wiped out China's folk. An additional deed. Okay, good job. I set up post stations so that my envoys would swiftly ride between post haste and also transport needs and necessities. Another additional deed.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's awesome.

[Thomas Magby]

Good.

[AJ Hanneberg]

In lands with no water, I had wells dug out and provided water and grass for the nation.

[Thomas Magby]

Also great.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Also I left outriders and permanent garrison soldiers over the city folk in every direction and made the nation live with their souls on the soil and their grip on the ground. So he had. Remember, he moved around people and set up garrisons. These four deeds I added since the time of my con father. Yet although I was seated on a great throne by my confather and carried forward on my back the teeming kingdom, it was an error of mine to be defeated by grape wine. This was one of my errors.

[Thomas Magby]

He drank a lot.

[AJ Hanneberg]

He drank a lot. The second error was my weakness in being taken in by the words of a wayward woman and taking over the girls of Otzyjin the elder uncle's kingdom to be led astray into a wayward and weak affair while I was the lord Khan of the kingdom. This was one of my errors. Also, to hold a grudge against Doku was an error. If you ask why it was an error to hold a grudge against Tikulku who had charged forward on behalf of my ruler father was an error and a weakness. Who will now charge forward me for me like that. I myself. So basically, I guess he charged. He charged too early or something. And he's like, I shouldn't have held that grudge because now who's doing that for me? Nobody. I myself confess my error in plotting against Tikoku, not understanding the man who had been more eager than any anyone in adhering to the principles of the confather. Also worrying lest the game borne by a destiny from heaven and earth should go in the direction of the elders and juniors. I was greedy by building fences and walls and hemming them in. So I guess he took the game and sort of like built these big corrals. I listened to words of resentment against the elder and younger brothers. This too was an error. Since the time of my confather, I added these four deeds and four other deeds turned out to be errors.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. And that's it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

And that's it.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. Awesome.

[Graham Donaldson]

And then, I mean, you need to know yourself.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Isn't that kind of an, like, honest assessment? That's sort of like an honest assessment. Like a really good. Sort of. I did some good things. Here's the good things I did. But, you know, got drunk a little bit. I got it with some ladies and I did. To hold a grudge. That wasn't really great.

[Thomas Magby]

So we think it's Okadai who's putting this book together. Or like his. His dynasty or whatever.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Like his probably. Yeah. I think he was probably the one who commissioned it. Okay. I doubt Genghis was the one putting it together.

[Thomas Magby]

That's what I was wondering.

[Graham Donaldson]

But crazy it is.

[Thomas Magby]

We made it.

[Graham Donaldson]

We did it.

[AJ Hanneberg]

That's it. Isn't it crazy? It's a lot of, like, weird regulations and then lots of fights and a whole bunch of names that only pop in once. And I wonder how much of that was them wanting to honor various families by putting them in the history, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a wild ride.

[Thomas Magby]

Like, all the frat poetry in there, too. Like, anyway, like, the. One of the weird images and all that.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. Or that one guy who, while the two princes were fighting, gives this, like, whole story about how the mom raised them. He's like, what are you boys doing? And everyone is just like, who? Nobody cares about what this guy's saying. And then just fight about the succession. Anyway, it's pretty crazy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wasn't there, like, a guy who was trying to divine with, like, figuring out the weather and falls in a ditch or something?

[AJ Hanneberg]

Oh, yeah. Wasn't it that they threw the stones and then they fell in the ditch and they're like, well, it's turned on us.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah, it's turned on us. Boys, we're out of here.

[Graham Donaldson]

Cool. Awesome.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Well, yeah, I think we're done a little early. Sorry, this is a short episode, but, I mean, it's the end of it.

[Graham Donaldson]

And, well, this has been classical stuff, you should know with aj, Thomas and Graham. If you have. If you want to invade the step with us, email us at the guys@classical stuff.net and, you know, we'll ride with you if you want.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I'll ride at the vanguard.

[Graham Donaldson]

If you want to try fermented mare's milk, you can email aj. No, wait, no, you can email us at the. If you know of any, like, fermented vendors. Yeah, there's gotta be some kind of, like, hipster brewery that's doing it somewhere.

[Thomas Magby]

So the first someone told us that it's disgusting.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It tastes like vomit.

[Thomas Magby]

Because they tried it. Like, how do they know that?

[Graham Donaldson]

They lived in Mongolia. Their parents were missionaries.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

And they tried it, and they said it was gross. And that just confirmed what I knew to be true. And so you can patronize [e-mail] you can give us tributes, gifts, and if you don't, we will keep you from paying tribute for three days as punishment.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah. A.J. will yell @ you until you're sweating.

[Graham Donaldson]

Until you're sweating, until you're, like, sunk into the ground. We have a monthly AMA where you can ask us questions, and we prattle on for an hour and a half. If you want some divination, the oracle will tell you the future. If you're wanting to know about that.

[AJ Hanneberg]

I actually kind of love it. Our Patreon's kind of hopping these days.

[Thomas Magby]

It's been really good.

[AJ Hanneberg]

It's certainly come away. And thank you to all of our people who actually support us on Patreon.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's like a chat box that AJ And I sometimes pop into and just, like, send pictures of our dogs or AJ Chat it up or pictures of his Europe trip. And we like to hear from people. And we'll catch you next week.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Bye.

[AJ Hanneberg]

Ciao.

[Graham Donaldson]

Bye.