263: The Ballad of the White Horse and Some Dudes Who Sing

Summary

Podcast Title: Classical Stuff You Should Know
Host/Authors: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee
Episode: 263: The Ballad of the White Horse and Some Dudes Who Sing
Release Date: July 30, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 263 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanenberg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee delve deep into G.K. Chesterton's classic work, The Ballad of the White Horse. This episode explores Chesterton's poetic retelling of Alfred the Great's battles against the Danes, intertwining historical narrative with profound philosophical critiques of early 20th-century romanticism and nihilism.

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Historical Context of "The Ballad of the White Horse"

Thomas Magbee opens the discussion by introducing Chesterton's work, emphasizing its setting in late 19th to early 20th-century England. He explains how Chesterton uses the legend of Alfred the Great, the sole English monarch to bear the title, to critique contemporary philosophical movements:

"Chesterton was looking at the philosophers of his day and saying if you follow these things to their logical conclusion, it is just going to bring you to sadness and misery and violence and madness." (Thomas, [00:36])

The trio underscores Chesterton's staunch Catholicism and his critical stance against the prevailing romantic and nihilistic philosophies, noting his sharp exchanges with contemporaries like H.G. Wells.

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Chesterton’s Philosophical Critique

Thomas elaborates on Chesterton's main thesis: the modern world's flirtation with romanticism and Nietzschean "will to power" leads inevitably to nihilism—a belief in the world's inherent meaninglessness:

"If you embrace that sadness, you think, 'Oh, isn't the world tragic? Aren't I a noble thing?'" (Thomas, [25:17])

Graeme connects this to modern cultural phenomena, referencing Carl Truman's Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self and its assertions about the triumph of romanticism in popular culture.

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Character Analysis: The Danes and Their Philosophies

Chesterton personifies various philosophical stances through the Danish chiefs Harald, Elf, Ogier, and King Guthrum. The hosts break down each character's embodiment of specific worldviews:

1. Harald: The Embodiment of Hedonism

Thomas reads Harald's mocking song, highlighting his hedonistic and conquering spirit:

"But we shall enjoy the world, the whole huge world. A toy great wine like blood from Burgundy cloaks..." ([16:42])

A.J. interprets Harald as representing hedonism, comparing his ethos to:

"We could really tie one on." ([10:11])

Quote:

"He wants to experience everything, but in that sort of vulgar way." – Thomas ([17:00])

2. Elf: The Lover of Melancholy

Thomas presents Elf’s somber melodies, noting his romanticized sadness:

"There is always a thing forgotten when all the world goes well..." ([21:35])

Graeme describes Elf as embodying melancholic romanticism, a longing for meaning in inherent sadness.

Quote:

"The soul is like a babe buried alive." – Elf ([26:23])

3. Ogier: The Wrathful Nihilist

Thomas reads Ogier’s fervent and destructive verses, illustrating his descent into anger and nihilism:

"Hate alone is true." ([30:07])

A.J. connects Ogier to modern manifestations of senseless violence, portraying him as a nihilist who seeks to destroy order to assert meaning:

"He's the Joker. Some people just want to see the world burn." ([32:26])

Quote:

"I want to destroy the thing and that there's something beautiful in the ability to destroy." – Ogier ([32:27])

4. Guthrum: The Final Nihilist King

Thomas analyzes Guthrum’s philosophy, which culminates the nihilistic trajectory:

"The soul is a lost bird, the body a broken shell." ([39:08])

A.J. summarizes Guthrum as embodying the acceptance of death’s inevitability and responding with hatred:

"Death is coming for us all. Might as well enjoy the little things while we can." ([39:35])

Quote:

"He is realizing that the only thing coming for you is death." – Guthrum ([40:38])

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Counterbalancing Characters: Eldred, Mark, and Colon

To juxtapose the destructive philosophies of the Danes, Chesterton introduces three English lords—Eldred, Mark, and Colon—who represent growth, civic responsibility, and redeemed passion.

1. Eldred: The Guardian of Domestic Life

Thomas discusses Eldred as the embodiment of domestic cultivation and the joy of a well-maintained home:

"He is the opposite of Harald, who wants to conquer and consume." ([46:14])

Quote:

"He wants to watch his plums ripen and the predictable things of growing." – Eldred ([47:02])

2. Mark: The Champion of Institutions

Thomas portrays Mark as a stalwart believer in law, order, and structured society, drawing from his Roman heritage:

"He remembers Rome and believes in strong institutions." ([47:15])

A.J. relates Mark to the importance of organized society and hierarchy:

"Mark represents the belief in man's ability to institutionalize and have hierarchy." ([47:22])

Quote:

"I will be buried in a Roman grave for all the world is Rome." – Mark ([59:28])

3. Colon: The Mystical Christian Warrior

Thomas introduces Colon as a bridge between Christian mysticism and pagan spirituality, embodying redeemed passion:

"He is the embodiment of the mystics, the aesthetics of Christendom." ([54:24])

A.J. expresses affinity for Colon, highlighting his synthesis of wildness and Christian authority:

"Colon is redeemed passion, the spiritual side of the creative world under divine authority." ([55:18])

Quote:

"There is a spiritual side to nature that is still under God's authority." – Colon ([58:17])

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Climactic Battle and Conclusions

In the battle scenes, all characters—both Danes and English lords—meet noble fates, symbolizing the clash between destructive and constructive philosophies. Thomas emphasizes that despite their noble intentions, the characters' deaths reflect their inherent philosophies:

"They all die in ways that embody what they stand for." ([59:07])

A.J. expresses enthusiasm for Chesterton’s storytelling:

"I love that book. I think I've read it twice." ([59:28])

Graeme and Thomas conclude that Chesterton advocates for a Christian society balanced with growth, civility, and redeemed passion as antidotes to nihilism and romantic excess.

Final Quote:

"Building your home, building your family, having your home and hearth... is the antidote to nihilism." – Thomas ([60:47])

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Takeaways and Reflections

The hosts reflect on the enduring relevance of Chesterton's message, drawing parallels to modern societal issues like alienation and identity politics. They argue that Chesterton's vision of a balanced Christian society—embracing growth, strong institutions, and spiritual mystery—offers a counterbalance to the destructive philosophies that lead to nihilism.

Thomas suggests practical takeaways:

"Growth, civility, and passion are the antidotes to nihilism." ([60:44])

A.J. envisions a society where organized passion and spiritual depth foster a meaningful life, contrasting sharply with the nihilistic and hedonistic tendencies critiqued in the episode.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "Chesterton was looking at the philosophers of his day and saying if you follow these things to their logical conclusion, it is just going to bring you to sadness and misery and violence and madness." – Thomas ([00:36])

• "The soul is like a babe buried alive." – Elf ([26:23])

• "I want to destroy the thing and that there's something beautiful in the ability to destroy." – Ogier ([32:27])

• "He will be buried in a Roman grave for all the world is Rome." – Mark ([59:28])

• "There is a spiritual side to nature that is still under God's authority." – Colon ([58:17])

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Conclusion

Episode 263 of Classical Stuff You Should Know offers a comprehensive exploration of Chesterton's The Ballad of the White Horse, highlighting its critique of nihilism and romanticism through vivid character embodiments. The hosts effectively connect historical narrative with modern philosophical debates, emphasizing the timeless relevance of Chesterton's insights.

For listeners unfamiliar with the episode, this summary provides a detailed understanding of the key discussions, character analyses, and philosophical reflections presented by A.J., Graeme, and Thomas.

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Transcript

[AJ Henenberg]

Hey, welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know we are back in the saddle and we're a podcast about old stuff, and that's pretty much all you need to know.

[Graham Donaldson]

Cool.

[AJ Henenberg]

My name is AJ Henenberg. I'm here with Graham Donaldson.

[Thomas Magbee]

Hello.

[AJ Henenberg]

And Thomas Magbee.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hi.

[AJ Henenberg]

And today we're talking about something that I hope I understand the next time Graham describes it, because he's had a whole bunch of words all strung together. Nihilism, hope, something.

[Graham Donaldson]

Romanticism was in it.

[AJ Henenberg]

Romanticism.

[Thomas Magbee]

Well, we're doing a book.

[AJ Henenberg]

It's like a, you know, like a scramble of academic buzzwords.

[Graham Donaldson]

Good.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, great. That's what we do today. I'm talking about a book that we have talked about in the podcast a long time ago. It's one of G.K. chesterton's books and it's called the Ballad of the White horse. And what G.K. chesterton does is. This is a big. It's a ballad, so it's a poem. And he takes a story from sort of classical Christian mythology in England. So, like, he talks about Alexander. Not like Alexander, sorry, Alfred the Great, the only English king to have the moniker the Great. And he uses a story that happened in To Alfred the Great to make a claim about the modern world. So Chesterton's writing in the early, late 19th, early 20th century. It's right before the dawn of World War I. And Chesterton was a staunch Catholic. Chesterton was somebody who was highly critical of a lot of the romantic and 20th century philosophy that of his time. So if you've ever read any Chesterton, you know, he was like, he was friends with everybody, but he was like, he would go after your ideas. So, like, him and H.G. wells apparently had this huge back and forth where they would write articles against each other and all this kind of stuff. And Chesterton was always critical of, of looking at the philosophy, the, the popular philosophies of the early 20th century and saying if you follow these things to their logical conclusion, it is just going to bring you to sadness and misery and violence and madness. That, that is his. So he's, he's, he's, he's looking at Nietzsche from before him. He's looking at the, the philosophers of his day. And in his very sort of whimsical, witty way, he is pointing out that these things that seem so in vogue and seem so romantic and seem so great are only going to lead you to sadness, misery and death and the, and the, the old ways of, like, the simple life of, of loving God and of, and of, like and having family and these sort of, these, the things that are mocked and lambasted. Is that the word?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[Thomas Magbee]

Are in fact the, the way to go in terms of health and happiness and an organized society. So this is sort of Chesterton's thing. And, and so he has this book called the Battle of the White Horse where he makes this point by, with some of the characters that he has. So let's set up the story about what happens in this in, in, in the book. So Chesterton is writing about Alfred the Great. Now Alfred the Great was the king of Wessex in England of around the time. So I think this is like the year, I don't know, 800, 900. It's a long time ago.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yep.

[Thomas Magbee]

And around this time you have the fall. You know, the Roman Empire has been defeated, is fallen. It is no longer the world's power. And the Western world has basically been overrun by Vikings. This is the age of Viking raids. Actually, you don't. The Vikings went as far as Byzantium, they went as far as Constantinople. The emperor of Constantinople had like a royal guard of Vikings. Isn't that crazy? Like these guys would come down the river and he was like, you guys. The emperor was like, you guys are awesome at fighting. You would like to be my royal guard. And they were like.

[Graham Donaldson]

And they said yes, they went along with that.

[Thomas Magbee]

Of course. They get money and wine and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, Vikings, they travel, which is what.

[AJ Henenberg]

They'Re there for in the first place. We can steal this by blood or I could just, you could just give it to us.

[Thomas Magbee]

Sounds awesome. And so this is the age of the sort of the Viking incursions into Europe and sort of easy pickings for these, these, these tribes, these bloodthirsty tribes to come into a society that has completely kind of wound itself down. Like after the Roman Empire and everything got real small. You don't have the law of the empire ruling Spain to India anymore. You now have. Everything's gone real small, real local and easy pickings for tribes to come in. Right. The barbarians at the gates. So England is like this. Alfred the Great during his reign held a kingdom and then he was defeated by the Danes. So if you, the Danes came in and they controlled most of northern England, so Northumbria around York and they, they were Danish owned or Danish conquered. And then you had the Anglo Saxons in the south and then eventually you had the French, the Normans came over. So that is sort of the makeup of English societies. You have the Danes in the north, the Anglo Saxons and The Celts from, from Scotland and, and Ireland, the Anglo Saxons and then you had the Normans that come in a couple hundred years later. If you remember from our going back to the, the Plantagenet episodes, there is a lot of struggle between the south and the north in England. And that you know, does go back to the Danes in the north and the Anglo Saxons in the south and, and then the French coming in. So this is, these are long standing things. Anyway, Alfred the Great controls his kingdom of Wessex, gets defeated by the Danes and is absolutely routed. And the legend has it that he wanders the countryside in like busted, you know, armor and just like in rags and he's got like the crown in his backpack and he's just like wandering around. And Chesterton plays up on this. The story is, or actually the history goes that eventually Alfred rallies his troops, he's an older man and he does this last ditch effort to reconquer and fight King Guthrie Guntherm or Guthrum of the Danes. And he was inspired by a vision of Mary and she basically said, you should do it Alfred. And Alfred's like, okay. And so he gets his lords together and he fights Guthrum and against all odds wins. And as part of the peace negotiations with the Danish king, the Danish king agrees, become baptized and becomes a Christian. And then essentially like the Danes in the north kind of have to follow suit and there's peace. And that peace is going to last until you get up to when the Normans invade. And then you've got the, and then you've got the Battle of Stamford Bridge and you have all that stuff that sort of starts off the planet Plantagenet Age and you can go back and listen to that way back in the day. Anyway, so Chesterton takes the story of Alfred being inspired by Mary and the gathering of his chiefs and the defeat of Guntherm and he writes this poem about it. There are a couple of folk tales that happen, one that we're not going to talk about where Alfred accidentally burns a. He's, he's really hungry and this little peasant woman says you can have some of my cake if you watch it in the fire. And he's like, okay. And he kind of is thinking about all of his problems and troubles and the fact that he lost his kingdom and the cakes burn. And he does, he hasn't been watching them. And the little lady comes up and slaps him and says how dare you. And she doesn't know it's the king. And he, his first thought is I'm The King of England. I'm gonna kill you because you slapped the king and I'm God's anointed. And then he realizes, like, actually, she was right. I haven't been watching the cakes. I'm kind of a doofus. And so he apologizes to her. He's like, oh, by the way, I'm the King of England. And she's like, oh, crap, there's that story.

[AJ Henenberg]

They also have a good laugh.

[Thomas Magbee]

They have a good laugh about it. And so Chesterton really plays up that story. And then the other story that happens in there is that Alfred, before the battle of Guthrum, dressed up basically in his rags and took his harp, his. His musical instrument and went into the Danish camp and played a song to the Danes. And, and the Danes were like, oh, look at this, like, lame Englishman singing songs a little. Did you know that we're like the fearsome Danes? And then they sing songs back to him and there's a sort of like, song off. Apparently this is the legend. And Chesterton plays that up and we're going to be reading parts of that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Cool.

[Thomas Magbee]

Then he gathers the chiefs and they have a war and they fight. And against all odds, Alfred wins and Guthrum gets baptized. So that's the historical part of this. Chesterton wants to set up the Danish chiefs as this. He has these three characters and then. And then the. The fourth character is King Guntherm. And he uses all three of those characters to showcase different kinds of modern philosophy or different kinds of modern ways of thinking. And it is very much in line with the early 20th century, like romanticism and, and Nietzschean will to power philosophy. And Chesterton is wanting to show that that 20th century romanticism and will to power is not only bankrupt, but it also is rooted. It is rooted in sort of like pagan philosophy back in the day. The romantics in the 19th century were really quick to align their romanticism with like, images of the old Greek gods and think of like, who's the wine God? A.J.

[AJ Henenberg]

Bacchus.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah. So back is Dionysus. So like that idea of like, drinking and getting drunk in parties and this kind of stuff and that, like, making merry. If you think of the like, sort of fantasy eclip Paris of where, you know, drinking and, and, and partying. If you think Oscar Wilde, that kind of aesthetic as, as sort of this branch of this romanticism, they line align that with this idea of like, these old pagan ways until, like, stuffy, boring Christianity came and made us all, like, pious. But back in the day, we could, you Know, have, have.

[AJ Henenberg]

We could really tie one on.

[Thomas Magbee]

We really Taiwan and have, have some fun. And so there's that kind of aesthetic, the Nietzsche will to power that like life is all about power and is all about like masters versus slaves, that sort of precursor to Marxism and all that kind of stuff. Chesterton sees this in Europe and he tells the story of the Ballad of the White Horse and he sort of has the Danes be the embodiment of these different kinds of philosophies. So I'm going to read. And the scene that he does this is what, when, when Alfred comes into the camp and sings the song. There are these three chiefs that make fun of Alfred's sort of quaint Christian way of life and they sing their own songs about what life is about. And then, and, and as. Yeah, so the three. So there is, let's see, if there was going to be like a thesis statement to this podcast episode, it would be this. That when Chesterton in the Battle of the White Horse, he basically says that like this unmoored, freedom loving pagan romanticism, this sort of enterprise, this philosophical enterprise of the 20th century that still exists today eventually leads to nihilism. It leads to a belief that of the meaninglessness of the world and all that there is is just death, cold death. That is sort of Chesterton's belief that all of these, this revelry and this partying and this power grabbing and, or even if you want to go back to, if you were listening to our, our AMAs where someone asked us books about Robert Greene's mastery and 48 laws of power, that kind of ethos of just wanting to become as powerful as possible and, and as like seductive as possible. And this kind of stuff, that ethos is eventually just going to lead to a sense of meaninglessness. This is Chesterton's sort of belief in this book. If you've listened to our podcasts on where we looked at Carl Truman's. Is it the, what's the name of his book? Is it the Triumph of the Modern Self? What's it called?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, Rise and Triumph.

[Thomas Magbee]

Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. Carl Truman in that book is putting together a wonderful thesis by saying a lot of the modern problems that we see today, of alienation and of identity politics and of all this kind of stuff is the triumph of this sort of romantic and Nietzschean philosophy now working itself out in kind of popular culture. It was in academic culture in the 19th century and it was in sort of like the aristocratic culture of the early 20th century and now it is fully baked into the popular culture. And so that's Carl Truman's wonderful thesis in that book. And this is Chesterton seeing that on the horizon and writing this book sort of in response to this. All right, we. That was a lot of info. Are we tracking on board? Okay, Tracking on board. Okay, cool. So there are these three characters that Chesterton writes about, these three chiefs of the Danes. And they are all these embodiments of these, of these beliefs. So I'm actually, I'm not going to tell you the embodiments. We'll see if you guys can get it as I read them. So you've got young Harald, you have a Danish chief named Elf, and then you have Ogier. And then the last one was Guthrum. So those are the four. Guthrum being the final king. And I'll give you the spoiler. The final king. He is the oldest and he's the king that's conquered the world. And he believes that like all we have is just meaninglessness and death and the great wheel is turning on. And what has come before will come again and then nothing matters. That's Guthrim's point of view.

[AJ Henenberg]

Okay, so are you gonna read them? Do you want us to.

[Thomas Magbee]

I'm gonna read them.

[AJ Henenberg]

I mean, should we. We each be a character?

[Graham Donaldson]

I want Graham.

[Thomas Magbee]

But the thing is I didn't. I didn't bring enough books and I. I need to have it in front of me. Sorry.

[AJ Henenberg]

That's fine.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay, but I'll read it. And you. I want you guys to like synthesize and tell me what, what these characters are like.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay.

[Thomas Magbee]

All right, so here we go. So Alfred comes in, he gives his little. He basically he. He sings, he plays his harp about how great the Anglo Saxons are. And all the Danes are like, you're a lame and we conquered you. This sucks. Or you suck. Okay, so here's Harald Till Harold laughed and snatched to the harp the kinsmen of the king, A big youth, beardless like a child, whom the new wine of war sent wild smote and began to sing. And he cried of the ships as eagles that circle fiercely and fly and sweep the seas and strike the towns from Cyprus round to sky. Now swiftly and with peril they gather all good things, the high horns of the forest beasts or the sacred stones of kings. Then he sings. For Rome was given to rule the world and gat of it little joy. But we. But we shall enjoy the world, the whole huge world. A toy great wine like blood from Burgundy cloaks Like the clouds from Tyre as and marble like solid moonlight and gold like frozen fire. Smells that a man might swill in a cup, Stones that a man might eat. And the great smooth women like ivory that the Turk sells in the street. He sang the throne of the thief of the world and the gods who love that thief. And he yelled aloud at the cloister yards where men go gathering Greece, well have ye sung, O stranger, of the death of the dyken whale. So he's making fun of Alfred's song. Your chief was a bracelet giver, but the red unbroken river of a race runs not forever, but suddenly it fails. Doubtless your sires were sword swingers when they waited fresh from foam before they were turned to women by the God of the nails of Rome. But since you bent to the shaven men who neither lust nor smite thunder of Thor, we hunt you a hare on the mountain height. So that is the young Danish noble, the beardless herald. So if you kind of had to, like, embody his view and philosophy and ethos, what would you say his is?

[AJ Henenberg]

What's the name of the guy? And One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. The hero.

[Thomas Magbee]

Rpm Right.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah. Whatever his deal is, you see it often in the, like. It's kind of a hearkening back to the Greek days of yore, when, like, we could really party. It's essentially hedonism.

[Thomas Magbee]

It is, exactly. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's what I was gonna say.

[AJ Henenberg]

It's a hedonism that is, like, free of the bounds of every. Like, screw your rules. I'm gonna go do what I want and, like, really enjoy the world and really get the best out of it. It's totally untested. Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like, it opens with, he hasn't been.

[Thomas Magbee]

To war, but he hasn't.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like, this optimism of, like, war will be incredible. Seeing the world is going to be incredible.

[Thomas Magbee]

The world is full of treasures that are for me to consume and take. Yeah, I. I mean, it's.

[AJ Henenberg]

It's Oscar Wilde. It's the picture of Dorian Gray.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right.

[AJ Henenberg]

It's exactly what he wanted from the world.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

I think of it as, like. Yes, it is that. I don't. The only way I can think about it is kind of in. In this sort of crude way, and I don't mean to be crude, but he wants to, like, make love. Not make love. He wants to, like, the world. He wants everything. Right. Like, I. I'm. Yeah, sure. You know what I mean? Like, he wants to experience everything. He wants experience everything, but in that sort of vulgar way.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[Thomas Magbee]

And drink all the wine, be with all of the women, conquer the world, have fine clothes. It's kind of that, like the. I don't know, what do you want to call it? It's, it's. It's like that braggadociousness of youth that just wants to like, have all, like, lambos.

[AJ Henenberg]

And the ethos of rap culture.

[Thomas Magbee]

It is the ethos of rap culture. Yeah. I think, you know, like, exactly. Is exactly it. Right. Yeah. So if you think of any sort of hip hop video, it's that kind of thing. And all the other characters are like, he's young, but that. But that sort of ethos is that. And it's very much tied in with youth. He wants to conquer the world not only in terms of possessions, but in terms of his, like, sexual appetites. All of it. He wants to throw himself free, full force into this kind of thing. And that is tied into this, like, striving warrior conquering. Conqueringness. And he's making fun of, you know, this Christian land that were made to be weak because of their worship of a God who got killed. Right. Like, so he's making fun. This is Herald and so that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay, so do you view the next. Like, is there a progression here or are these just three different.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, so I don't really know. I was going to present that as maybe a possibility. Is that Chesterton is either he's either showcasing three distinctive philosophies or he's showcasing a progression of philosophy that you go from Harold to Ogier. I don't know if that's true. Maybe you tell me.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, yeah, because you would say they all end up at Guthrum. Right?

[Thomas Magbee]

They all end up at Guthrum. So it seems like there is a progression. So there's. There's Harold who wants to. Who wants to sort of. Yeah. Have everything. Yeah. Okay. And then we have Elf. Elf is the next one. So Harald just finished his big, you know, desire to consume the world. And it says, king Gunthram smiled a little and said, it is enough, nephew, let Elf retune the string a boy must needs like bellowing. But the old ears of a careful king Are glad of songs less rough. Blue eyed was Elf the minstrel with womenish hair and ring yet heavy was his hand on sword though light upon the string. And as he stirred the strings of the harp the notes but four or five, the heart of each man moved in him like a babe buried alive. And they felt the land sounds good. And they felt the land of the folk songs spread Southward of the Dane and they heard the good Rhine flowing in the heart of all Alamein. They felt the lands of the folk songs where the gifts hang on the trees, where the girls give ale at the morning and tears come easily. The mighty people, woman like that, have pleasure in their pain. And he sang of Balder, beautiful, whom the heavens loved in vain. As he sang of Balder, beautiful, whom the heavens could not save Till the world was like a sea of tears and every soul a wave. And he sings. There is always a thing forgotten when all the world goes well, a thing forgotten as long ago when the gods forgot the mistletoe and soundless as an arrow of snow the arrow of anguish fell the thing on the blind side of the heart, on the wrong side of the door the green plant groweth, menacing almighty lovers in the spring There is always a forgotten thing and love is not secure. And all that sat by the fire were sad, save Ogier, who was stern and his eyes hardened even to stones as he took the harp in turn. So Ogier will say. So it's a little harder.

[Graham Donaldson]

Isn't that melancholy? Yeah, like. Yeah, he's bombing everyone out from what he's talking about. But there's like a. There's still some longing in there. There's something he's wanting. Yeah. I don't know how to say it. It's. It's definitely. It's sadder than what Harold is presenting. But it's still. I don't know what he wants, though maybe I'm.

[Thomas Magbee]

And he doesn't know either. He talks about that thing forgotten. There was always a thing forgotten when all the world goes well, a thing forgotten as long ago when the gods forgot the mistletoe and soundless of an arrow and snow the arrow of anguish fell. So it's kind of that. Like what Elf is. Is representing is kind of that. Yeah, the. He. He's also the one that have the hardest kind of pinning down. But it is that sort of a melancholy. But that sort of love of melancholy, the wanting to wallow in sadness, even if things are going really well. You want to have kind of that. Like. Oh, you know, that sort of. I always sort of picture like an early 20th century, like on you, we gentleman being like, oh, but all of this is just, you know, a vain fantasy, you know, like that sort of enjoyment of almost like the. The sadness of life. Whereas Harold just wants to make love to the world. Elf has this sort of like all love fades away and there's something profound in that.

[Graham Donaldson]

And then sadness wants to, like, stay there.

[Thomas Magbee]

But he doesn't want to, like, make a full. He doesn't want to, like, fully investigate it and, like, sort of work it out. And he doesn't want to solve it as a problem.

[Graham Donaldson]

He wants the problem.

[Thomas Magbee]

He wants the problem and he wants to own it. So, AJ who is the. The count that. That sort of sends Dorian Gray on his path at the beginning of the book? What's the count's name? Do you remember?

[AJ Henenberg]

Is he a count? He's Lord.

[Thomas Magbee]

Lord Henry had Lord Henry. So I. There just think of this with, like, Lord Henry. Lord Henry's kind of got that, like.

[AJ Henenberg]

You'Re losing your youth. That sucks. And the world is going to suck. And that's the deal.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's right. And that's the deal. And so, like, things are going by and love is going to fade, and there's always a thing for God.

[AJ Henenberg]

Might as well have a good time.

[Thomas Magbee]

You might. And that was what Harold's all about. But Elf is not about that. Elf is sort of reveling in the sadness and kind of. And finds like, he's the kind of person that finds that the sadness of the world is the profound truth. And any sort of good, wholesome. Good wholesomeness is somewhat lacking.

[AJ Henenberg]

Like, the darkness wins.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's right.

[AJ Henenberg]

That's why I had a conversation with a friend of mine who she's married, and she was talking to her husband, and she would come home and cry every day and call him, and eventually he's just like, hey, hun. I think you're just addicted to sadness. Like, you play sad things, you watch sad movies, you listen to sad songs. I think you just want to be sad. And she was like, oh, I think you're right. This is bad, and had to crack it.

[Thomas Magbee]

And there is a. A. That is a coping mechanism for, I think the encroaching feelings of nihilism like that. That if you fundamentally. This is sort of what Guthrie is going to represent is that if you fundamentally believe that everything in this life is just a march towards a meaninglessness, like. Like sort of cold universe ending. Right, that finding the sadness profound is. Is almost like a bit of a. It is a coping mechanism as opposed to sort of facing what you think is the grim, dark reality of nothing.

[AJ Henenberg]

I don't know. I mean, like, I wonder if it's a coping. Maybe a coping mechanism is the right word. I think it's a false nobility belt built on the magnitude of the human spirit.

[Thomas Magbee]

So, like, is it a sentimentality? Is it like a. Yeah, yeah.

[AJ Henenberg]

It's a sentimentality. But the, I think the foundation, the reason it stays is because when we embrace that sadness we think, oh, isn't the world tragic? Aren't I a noble thing? Isn't man a noble thing? And isn't it, isn't it deep and profound of me to recognize this tragedy? Yes. Like what you are doing is, is welding yourself to this sort of like false, false grand tragedy and then feeling your own nobility and, and greatness because you recognize it and because you are welded to it and there is no hope like it is. I think it is a false thing that, that gives you this sort of like grandness that could come elsewhere.

[Thomas Magbee]

I think it's that again, if we go back to the Kierkegaard episode from a long time ago, that night of infinite resignation that is like, oh, everything is so terrible and I am so profound that I realize it and poo poos and makes fun of the person that's like, I get up every morning and take care of my family and they're like, oh, oh, that's so small minded, you know, like.

[AJ Henenberg]

But like doom will come to us all. You do your little things and I will think of grand things.

[Thomas Magbee]

So elf sings a song that causes men's souls to feel like a babe buried. That's such a great, such a great line.

[AJ Henenberg]

That's such a good line. So their heart to move inside them like a babe buried alive.

[Thomas Magbee]

So that is also a symptom of this, this unmoored, freedom loving pagan romanticism. If you. That's sort of the way I can classify it. And I really do think that that is, it is the philosophy of our modern life. Like this. That is, I think Carl Truman is right.

[Graham Donaldson]

This one feels more familiar than Harold's.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe it's just like, depends on the.

[Thomas Magbee]

Harold is like go watch an Andrew Tate video. Right, like, or whatever, whatever that guy's name is.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah. I feel like Harold is the wild, the wildness of youth. And then once you've tried it, it's the depression of your late 20s and early 30s. Right. When you're like, oh, I'm not fulfilled.

[Graham Donaldson]

You don't think El sounds like a high schooler?

[AJ Henenberg]

Oh, I, I do think this sounds like. Well, I, I mean, I think it's gotta be a progression. Right? So this is, this is a junior who's in high school who's just sort of discovered like deep meanings. It reminds me that I'm, I'm 13 and this is deep subreddit.

[Graham Donaldson]

And then I know Nothing about the.

[AJ Henenberg]

Subreddit, that kind of thing, where it's just like. It's not actually deep, but it feels grand, right?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[AJ Henenberg]

And then he goes to college, has a really great time, and then that sort of ennui returns in his late 20s when he's done all the things he's been with the girls, he's tried all the drink, and he's like, oh, this world is a dark place. And then I've realized it and like now, off to set into this tragedy alone.

[Thomas Magbee]

Bleak. Okay, so then that. That's Elf. And then the next one who has. Who sort of gets frustrated by Elf's sad song stands up and it's Ogier. And he sings this. Earl Ogier of the stone and sling was odd to ear and sight old he was, but his locks were red, and jests were all the words he said. Yet he was sad at board and bed and savage in the fight. You sing of the young gods easily in the days when you are young. But I must go smelling you and sods. And I know that there are gods behind the gods, Gods that are best left unsung. And a man grows ugly for women, and a man grows dull with ale. Well, if he finds in his soul at last fury that does not fail, the wrath of the gods behind the gods who had rend all gods and men. Well, if the old man's heart hath still wheels sped of rage and roaring will like cataracts to break down and kill. Well, for the old man then, while there is one tall shrine to shake or one live man to rendezvous for the wrath of the gods behind the gods who are weary to make an end, There lives one moment for a man when the door at his shoulder shakes, when the taut rope parts under the pull, and the barest branch is beautiful one moment while it breaks, so rides my soul upon the sea that drinks the howling ships, though in black jested bows and nods under the moons with silver rods, I know it is roaring at the gods waiting the last eclipse. And in the last eclipse the sea shall stand up like a tower above all moons made dark and riven, Holds up its foaming head in heaven and laugh, knowing its hour. And the high ones in the happy town propped by the planets 7 shall know a new light in the mind, A noise about the man behind shall hear and awful voice and and find foam in the courts of heaven. And you that sit by the fire are young and true love waits for you. But the king and I grow old, grow old. And hate alone is true.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, Guthrum's gonna be more bleak than this.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yes, Guthrum's gonna be. Actually, Guthrum's gonna be a little bit more measured than this, which is maybe interesting.

[AJ Henenberg]

This feels like a combination of Nietzsche's will to power. Right. Nothing matters, therefore I'm going to get mine.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yep.

[AJ Henenberg]

And it's more hateful than that. And it feels like it's got a touch of the rebellion of absurd. Absurdism in there. Right. Where everything is meaningless, therefore I'm going to. In rebellion. I'm going to live my life crazy. Although he doesn't embrace with absurdism, they kind of embrace like the. I'm going to live broadly and do all the things and try all the women and, you know, do the drugs and conquer worlds. And this guy, it's.

[Thomas Magbee]

He's.

[AJ Henenberg]

He's fallen back to hate. Sounds like Ahab talking.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, that's. That's actually really interesting that. Yeah. I read Ogier as somebody who has found meaning and purpose in the act of tearing down and. And destroying. So there, there. There's this theme that runs through and that theme is that the flood, that the Danes want to raise the flood waters to heaven. And that's what he says, that the foam of the ocean, this ocean is this like chaotic destroying force. And Ogier rages at the gods. That rages at the gods. And Ogier has this belief that of, like, if there is structure and order, if there is a king sitting on a throne in heaven, I am going to flood it. I am going to come up and I'm going to tear it down and destroy it and hate a wrath that there is order in the world that I am not part of. Or this feeling of like sort of this disenfranchised feeling that there is a unity to the world that I don't get to be a part of it. And therefore I find the joy in destroying it to make everything the same level.

[AJ Henenberg]

I thought, is his hate not based on the gods behind the gods, who are just waiting to sort of like blink out the lights. And he's like, if you're just waiting to blink out the lights, I'm going to tear this place down.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yes, exactly. I think that's it.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's like bringing that about sooner.

[Thomas Magbee]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

By tearing down the gods to get there. So he wants that chaos back.

[Thomas Magbee]

He wants the chaos and the rage. And he find. He said, and he sort of says. And that is where man finds meaning. He says, there lives in one moment for a man when the door at his shoulder shakes when the taut rope parts under the pole and the barest branch is beautiful one moment while it breaks.

[AJ Henenberg]

He's the Joker.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yes.

[AJ Henenberg]

Some people just want to see the world burn.

[Thomas Magbee]

Exactly. So he's got that idea of, like, he just wants to destroy the thing and that there's something beautiful, which I don't agree with, but there's something beautiful in the. In the ability to destroy that which is whole. It's. And it's that diabolic, like. That's diabolical. The idea of, like tearing apart the whole into pieces and thinking that that is the profound thing. So this is Ogier. I think of it as like that sort of. You know, how someone. You know, there's. There's like some sort of seemingly meaningless act of violence in the world, whether it's like a shooting at either. Like a school shooting or some sort of act of violence. And then when you really sort of dig into the. The motives behind it, it's just that they were this disenfranchised, angry person that felt like there was no place for them in the world. And then therefore they decide to bring destruction like that. That sentiment is sort of what Ogier is. It's. Is that if. If this really is. As you get older and you lose your taste for wine, women, and he's not going to get on board with the, like. Everything is just so profoundly sad of Elf. The only thing that's left is kind of like a appetite for violence and destruction and sort of reveling in that. And I find that absolutely terrifying. And I find that, like, that to me is always the answer that I always reflect on whenever there is some sort of, like, senseless violence. Not like mean. Not like violence between people. That makes sense. Like. Like a gang violence, like, makes sense because they hate each other for they want to, like, carve out, I don't know, market share of the streets, like that makes sense. But the senseless violence, I think, is born out of this Ogier nihilism that if there is anything in this world that has order, I am and I'm not. And it is and I am not. I am not in it. I am disenfranchised from this order of the world. It is man will find meaning in breaking and destroying that order. And that. Now, Thomas, you were asking if this is a progression. I kind of hope not.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's what it sounds like, though, right? Because it's. You start with this optimism of Harold.

[Thomas Magbee]

And that the world is a toy.

[Graham Donaldson]

For consumption, but then, yeah, you grow older. Not everything's been as the way you want it. So you fall into elf. And then if you stay in the melancholy long enough. That's Ogier.

[AJ Henenberg]

You just get angry.

[Thomas Magbee]

You just get angry and then want to destroy it.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm hoping AJ Pushes back at some point because I think you're more a fan of kind of the existentialist line of thought. Like, this seems like a very negative interpretation of what man does in the face of meaninglessness.

[Thomas Magbee]

It is. Now there is going to be an interesting. So the thing is, Chesterton also has three counterparts to these Danes who give the counterbalance to these points of view. And one of them, I think can sort of stand is something. Is one that AJ Will.

[Graham Donaldson]

Will like.

[Thomas Magbee]

Will like.

[Graham Donaldson]

Good.

[Thomas Magbee]

Anyway. All right.

[AJ Henenberg]

Oh, I love this whole section. Oh, man.

[Thomas Magbee]

No, no, no. Like, in terms of like. Agree with as like.

[AJ Henenberg]

Well, a sentiment about the world.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah. A sentiment about the world that you.

[AJ Henenberg]

Will jive with, I think. Yeah. King Alfred. Alfred, right. Does such a good job of responding to each. Each. All the Vikings sell this. You hear it and you're like, dang, that's beautiful. Right. He's got this, like, there's a moment when everything breaks. And isn't that, like a wonderful violence? And wouldn't I love to consume the world? It's really attractive the way they sing it. And then Alfred basically comes back with orthodoxy and he's like, actually, I wasn't.

[Thomas Magbee]

Actually going to read Alfred's response to it because I'm going to go and look at the. The three characters who Chesterton holds up as a counterbalance to this worldview. But anyway, so let's get to Gunthram.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

So Ogier has just talked about destroying the world, and hate alone is true. All right. And Gunthram shook his head but smiled, for he was a mighty clerk and had read lines in the Latin books When all the north was dark. He said, I am older than you, Ogier. Not all things would I rend. For whether life be bad or good, it is best to abide the end. He took the great harp wearily. Even Guthrum of the Danes with wide eyes bright and as the one long day on the long polar plains. For he sang of a wheel returning, and the mire trod back to mire. And how red hells and golden heavens are castles. In the fire he sings, it is good to sit where the good tales go to sit as our fathers sat. But the hour shall come after his youth When a man shall know not tales but truth, and his heart fail thereat when he shall read what is written so plain in clouds and clods when he shall hunger without hope even for evil gods. For this is a heavy matter, and the truth is cold to tell. Do we not know? Have we not heard? The soul is like a lost bird, the body a broken shell. And a man hopes being ignorant, Till in white woods apart he finds at last the lost bird dead. And a man may still lift up his head, but nevermore his heart. There comes no noise but weeping out of the ancient sky. And a tear is in the tiniest flower because the gods must die. The little brooks are very sweet, like a girl's ribbons curled. But. But the great sea is bitter that washes all the world strong are the Roman roses or the free flowers of the heath. But every flower, like a flower of the sea, smelleth with the salt of death. And the heart of the locked battle is the happiest place for men when shrieking souls as shafts go by and many have died and all may die. Though the world be a mystery, death is most distant. Then death blazes bright above the cup and. And clear above the crown. But in that dream of battle we seem to tread it down. Wherefore I am a great king and waste the world in vain? Because man hath not other powers save that in dealing death for dour he may forget it for an hour to remember it again. And slowly his hands and thoughtfully fell from the lifted lyre and the owls moaned from the mighty trees Till Alfred caught it at his knees and smote it as an ire. All right. And then he's going to sing. So what is Guthrum's philosophy?

[AJ Henenberg]

Death is coming for us all. Might as well enjoy the little things while we can. Like, just. Just because death is coming doesn't mean they're not. Like, they're not pretty, but they're pretty with the backdrop of death. And the only way that I can forget it is to kill. Yeah, like, that's the only way that I cannot think about death. And it probably is the thing that also makes him feel a little bit alive. If everyone around him is dying, he's got to feel a little bit alive. And he's also distracted, and he's not thinking about it. But when you're sitting on a throne with your crown, thinking about it, drinking, thinking about it.

[Thomas Magbee]

So he is not finding joy in the destruction, like, O here.

[AJ Henenberg]

No.

[Thomas Magbee]

But he is realizing that, like, the only thing coming for you is death. And, yeah, you can sort of forget it for an hour in the midst of the fight but when it's done and you can substitute the fight for anything, like throwing yourself into whatever projects. But in the end, once you raise your head up, you realize that the cold meaningless death is coming for you. And he's like, even then he's almost got this atheism. At that point you are going to wish for gods, even evil gods, because even evil gods give your life purpose that is struggling against them. Whereas when there's nothing, when you realize that the soul is a dead bird, your hearts will raise no more and you will just be doing things to push back the thought that you are going to die.

[AJ Henenberg]

And that's how he became a great king, is just trying to push back.

[Thomas Magbee]

Exactly. And so he. And so, so you don't think, you.

[AJ Henenberg]

Don'T think that Chesterton is setting him up to be ripe for conversion?

[Thomas Magbee]

Well, he is and he does. Yeah, yeah. He's.

[AJ Henenberg]

He's wishing for any God.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[AJ Henenberg]

So yes.

[Thomas Magbee]

Now I don't know if this is a progression or not. I go back and forth whether thinking it's from Harold to Guntherm is sort of like if you let this modern philosophy of this kind of like unmoored freedom and pagan romanticism run its course in your life, you go from hedonistic pleasure loving to rage monster to everything is sort of meaningless. I don't know if that's true, if that's what Chesterton's doing, but he's definitely showing these four views. And in those four views he has on, on Alfred's side he has three, I mean set my time. I don't know how much time I got. He has three great noble lords who counterbalance these things. Things. Okay, so in the gathering of the chiefs, Chesterton, this is another chapter. Alfred goes to get the three noble lords who are going to fight for him and they end up being. My reading of it is that Chesterton has these as these counterbalances to fight against these philosophies that are only going to lead you to gun who is sitting on a conquering throne saying that everything doesn't mean anything.

[AJ Henenberg]

Got about 10 minutes left.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay, so here we are. So the three of them are Eldred, Mark and Colon. So these are the three guys. So here we go. Eldred. So let's read a little bit about who these people are. The king went gathering Christian man as wheat out of the husks. Eldred, the Franklin by the sea. Franklin is a. Is someone who owns their own land and is basically like a small scale landowner who a subsistence farmer. Eldred the Franklin by the sea, and Mark, the man from Italy, and Colon of the sacred tree from the old tribe of Usk. So Eldred is sort of like this gentleman farmer. Mark is a man who remembers Rome. He is Italian, living in England. He's a. He's an old Roman citizen who remembers the old ways. And Colon is kind of this, like, Irish Catholic mystic warrior who is all about, like, asceticism and living in the woods.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sounds awesome.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah. So these are the three counterbalances. All right. So the rook croaked homeward heavily. The west was clear and warm. The smoke of evening food and ease rose like the blue tree in the trees when he came to Eldred's farm. But Eldred's farm was fallen awry like an old cripple's bones. And Eldred's tools were red with rust. And on his well was a green crust and purple thistles upwards thrust between the kitchen stones. But smoke of some good feasting went upwards evermore. And Eldred's door stood wide apart for loitering foot her laboring cart. And Eldred's great and foolish heart stood open like his door. A mighty man was Eldred, a bulk for casks to fill his face, a dreaming furnace, his body a walking hill. In the old wars of Wessex, his sword had sunken deep. But all his friends, he sighed and said, were broken about Ethelred. And between the deep drink and the dead, he had fallen upon sleep. Come not to me, King Alfred, save always for the ale. Why should my harmless hinds be slain? Because the chiefs cry once again, as in all fights that we shall gain, and in all fights we fail. He's like, I want to fight again. We lost to the Danes the last time. Just let me live on my, like, decrepit little farm.

[AJ Henenberg]

If you're gonna come by, come by to drink. Yeah, yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Your skull still thunder and prophesy that crown that never comes, friend. I will watch the certain things. Swine and slow moons like silver rings and the ripening of plums. He's like, I don't want your prophecies about. Like, the Christian king is going to come and make everything good. I'm just going to stay here. I'm going to watch. I'm going to watch my. My plums ripen and. And the predictable things of. Of like growing. And Alfred comes and says that he had well. He says that he has a well. Here we go. And Alfred answered, drinking and gravely, without blame nor bear I boast of scholar Kings, the thing I bear is a lesser thing, but it comes in a better name. Out of the mouth of the Mother of God more than the doors of doom I call the muster of Wessex men from grassy hamlet or ditch or den, to break and be broken God knows when but I have seen for whom out of the mouth of the Mother of God. Like a little world word come I, for I go gathering Christian men from sunken paving and ford and fen to die in battle God knows when. But God by God, but I know why. And this is the word of Mary, the word of the world's desire. This is what she told Alfred. No more of comfort shall ye get, save that the sky grows darker yet and the seas rise higher. Then silence sank and slowly arose the sea landlord. Like some vast beast from mystery, he filled the room in porch and sky, and from a cobwebbed nail on high unhooked his heavy sword. So basically, Alfred says, I had a vision of Mary saying, you fight against the darkness, even though you're going to die, and even though the waters are going to invade heaven, you fight against it. And Eldred's like, okay. And he gets the sword and goes. So he is sort of this embodiment, and it's sort of harder to piece together because you get this little thing. Later on in the battle, when Eldred is fighting all the Danes, he's thinking about whether his beans are ripening back home.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's awesome.

[Thomas Magbee]

And so he sort of embodies this domestic life of planting and feasting and welcoming people and of caring about maintaining your little home and hearth. So he is the opposite of the first Dane of Harald. Harald, who wants to go off and conquer and drink and like, basically lustily reap everything from the world. Eldred is. This is the opposite, is that you have the true enjoyment of the finer things in life come from that measured cultivation of them in your home, not of striding the world and see and taking them by force. So that's the counterbalance is you sort of have this, like, domestic life of good food and good friends.

[AJ Henenberg]

Also, I was wrong. You still have, like, 13 minutes.

[Thomas Magbee]

Good. Okay. Then you have the next one. He's like, okay, cool. So off he goes.

[Graham Donaldson]

So it's. Instead of wanting to take things from the world, he's like, growing.

[Thomas Magbee]

He's growing things. That's right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Building something up. Yeah. There's like a meaning to. But even his fight, there's like a meaning to the. The battle. He's going to. Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

And then he goes off and he finds Mark. And Mark is a Italian Roman who's living in England. Let's see if we were the best place to signal. And the white dawn widened air. He came to the last pine, Alfred, where Mark, the man from Italy, still made the Christian sign. The long farm lay on the large hillside, flat like a painted plain plan. And by the side the low white house where dwelt the southland man. A bronze man with a bird's bright eye and a strong bird's beak and brow. His skin was brown like buried gold. And of certain of his sires were told that they came in the shining ships of old with Caesar in the prow. His fruit trees stood like soldiers drilled in a straight line. His strange stiff olives did not fail. And all the kings of the earth drank ale, but he drank wine. Wide over wasted British plains stood never an arch or dome, only the trees to toss and reel, the tribes to bicker, the beasts to squeal. But the eyes in his head were strong like steel and his soul remembered Rome. Then Alfred of the lonely spear lifted his lion's head and fronted with the Italian's eye, asking him of whence and King Alfred stood instead. And he says the same thing. He says, Mary came to a vision and said that we need to fight against these godless Danes. And. And, let's see. And Mark basically says. Well, Mark says these vein, these vines his. His. His fruit vines. These vines be rope ropes that drag me hard. He said, I go not far. Where would you meet? For you must hold half Wiltshire and the White Horse wold and the Thames bank to Austin. Fold of Wessex goes to war. Guntherm sits strong on either bank. And you must press his lines inward and eastward. Drive him down. I doubt if you shall take the crown till you have taken London town. For me. I have the vines. If each man on the judgment day meet God on plain alone, said Alfred, I will speak for you as for myself and call it true that you brought all fighting folk you knew lined under ecgberh stone. Though I be in the dust air, then I know where you will be. And shouldering suddenly his spear, he faded like some elf in fear when the tall pines ran up tear on tier tree over toppling tree. So basically Mark says, you're not really. This is. You're not going to win this thing. If you're going to win, you have to do this, this, this and this. And Alfred says, I know you're going to be there when I need you. And he does. So this one's a little harder and again, you need to piece together Mark throughout the rest of the book. But he represents, he has. He remembers Rome before the battle. He says, if I fall, bury me where I fall, because you the all I will be buried in a Roman grave for all the world is Romes. That's so good. Yeah. So he sort of represents this belief, this idea of like, institutions, law, organized society. He's got his fruit trees, they are perfectly aligned, like soldiers. He has this mind for strategy. And he represents somebody that still believes that law, order, institutions, hierarchy, that these things are good things, even though the world has torn them down and destroyed them, and even though people want to be free from authority, he still knows that a well structured authority in the world is a good thing. And he remembers, quote, unquote, he remembers Rome. And when Alfred says, Mary came to me in vision and says that we need to fight in order to bring this about, Mark's like, yes, okay, cool off. And so he's. He's in it. So you've got Eldred, who is the representative of this, like, this growing thing, the growing things in this life of like cultivating your own little section of it. And then you've got Mark, who has a strong belief in man's ability to institutionalize and have hierarchy and laws and rules. And. And he's. And. And then with those you can build domes and arches. And then the last one is colon, and colon is. Well, I'll read about him. He is Colin of Kelleron, sorry, Caerleon. He is this sort of Irish mystic. For the man dwelt in a lost land of boulders and broken men in a great gray cave far off to south where a thick green forest stopped, the mouth giving darkness in his den. And the man was come like a shadow from the shadow of druid trees where Usk with mighty murmurings past Caerleon of the fallen kings goes out to ghostly seas Last of a race in ruin, he spoke the speech of the Gaels. His kin were in holy Ireland or up in the crags of Wales. But his soul stood with his mother's folk that were of the rain wrapped aisle where Patrick and Brandon Westerly looked out at last on the landless sea and the sun's last smile. His harp was carved in cunning as the Celtic craftsmen make Graven all over with twisting shapes like many headless snakes. His harp was carved and cunning, his sword prompt and sharp. And he was gay when he held the sword, but sad when he held the harp. For the great Gaels of Ireland are the Great are the men that God made mad for all their wars are merry and all their songs are sad. He kept the Roman order. He made the Christian sign. But his eye grew often blind and bright. And the sea that rose in the rocks at night rose to his head like wine. He made the sign of the cross of God. He knew the Roman prayers, but he had unreason in his heart because of the gods that were. Even they that walked on the high cliffs, high as the clouds were then. Gods of unbearable beauty that broke the hearts of men. And whether in the seat or saddle, whether with frown or smile, whether at feast or fight was he. He heard the noise of a nameless sea or an undiscovered isle. Lifting the great green ivy and the great spear lowering, one said, I am Alfred of Wessex and I am a conquered king. And they go back and forth and go back and forth. And he tells him the vision that Mary said that we are going to fight. And Colin says, I will go. He's a strange one because the way that Chesterton writes him is that he is Christian and he knows the Roman prayers and the Latin prayers, but he's also like, haunted by or has the memory of the things that sort of came before. And he is the mushing of these two things together. And he.

[AJ Henenberg]

Sad songs like Elf.

[Thomas Magbee]

He's got sad songs like Elf, but he's also got the truth of the gospel and he knows that that is true. And. And he's sort of this interesting character where he. He kind of is the embodiment of the. That wing of Christendom that is the mystics, the aesthetics. So, like the. The going off into caves and. And like, having no food. His sword, he has all rusted and busted and he sort of comes across as that. That realm of, you know, he's not Mark where Mark has, like, everything figured out. He is that. Like, he still has this belief in, like, the wildness of nature, but he understands that all of it is under God's authority.

[AJ Henenberg]

He's redeemed passion.

[Thomas Magbee]

He's redeemed.

[AJ Henenberg]

What was that first?

[Thomas Magbee]

That's perfect.

[AJ Henenberg]

What was the first singer? What was his name?

[Thomas Magbee]

Harold or Elf?

[AJ Henenberg]

Harold. He's Harold redeemed. Like, Harold wants all the pleasures of the world. And I feel like that wildness, the wildness of the old gods finds its total, like, true fruition in this guy. Like, he has all the passion and wildness of the world, but now under a real authority. And so his. His wars are happy. Like, he goes out and he fights and has a Great time. And I think their songs are probably still sad as, like, a hearkening back to when they had the unbearable beauty of the past gods. But, like, all of the wildness in the world is still present in his Christendom. It's just redeemed.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, I think that's great.

[AJ Henenberg]

Is that fair to say?

[Thomas Magbee]

I think it's fair to say. He reminds me of Thomas Kingsnorth. Paul Kingsnorth.

[Graham Donaldson]

You've talked about him before. I have not read him.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh, he can. Here he. There is sort of this, like, if Christianity is a thing that redeems, baptizes all sorts of different other modes. The idea of, like, the Christianized Roman Empire is the gospel mixed with civic society to create a functioning thing that is good for human beings. Cool. This is sort of like the baptized mysticism of. Of like realizing that there is a spiritual side to nature and that runs. That goes crazy in its sort of. Its pagan iterations of, like, worshiping demons and. And. And like, thinking trees are gods and all that sort of pantheism. But there is a Christian version of that where you can sort of baptize that mysticism and keep the sacredness and also the mystery of the created world. You can believe that there is a spiritual side to nature and not be a heretic.

[AJ Henenberg]

So which one is the one you thought I would be really happy about?

[Thomas Magbee]

Colon. Colon.

[AJ Henenberg]

I am.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[AJ Henenberg]

You nailed it. I was like, this guy sounds like my people. Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Unfortunately, if you say it wrong, his name sounds like colon, which sounds like a body part, but it's. It's colon with an A. So. So colon. So he's that version of, like, that there is a. That you can have this spiritual side of the creative world that. That. And. And get into that and. And. And think that. Think of C.S. lewis having. Like, that every tree has a dryad. Right. That. That idea that. That there is. That there are the demonia, that there are elves and gods, small g Gods that inhabit the world that are still subservient to Aslan, that they're still subservient to Christ, and that there is. The world is not just like a cold, mechanical place. And that's the only solution that you can have to the mysticism of paganism. No, there's this baptized version of it that you can. You can have, too.

[AJ Henenberg]

Oh, man. Yep.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yes.

[AJ Henenberg]

You're talking my language right now.

[Thomas Magbee]

And I. I want to do wild.

[AJ Henenberg]

Mysticism of the world.

[Thomas Magbee]

I want to do an episode on that idea. I want to do an episode on, like, on more of that kind of stuff. The stuff that Paul Kingsnorth goes into. Anyway, so these are the counterbalancing forces to that nihilism. Is that. And you have all of these guns. They're gonna fight and spoilers. All three of the. The great noble. All six of them kill each other. They all die.

[Graham Donaldson]

So it's not just the Danes.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's not just the Danes. Mark and Eldred and Cole and all die. But they're. But the way that they die is like very much an embodiment of what they have. Harold dies before the battle even fights. He gets hit with a sword by mistake. And so. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, actually Colin throws it and it kills him. And so. So there's this.

[Graham Donaldson]

Do the three English ones get like a noble?

[Thomas Magbee]

They all get a noble death. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's when. That's when Mark says wherever I fall, Barry, I will be buried in Rome for all the world is Rome's. Love it. And Eldred dies thinking about whether his bean. Whether his fruit trees are going to ripen this. This year as he's. He. And he like takes out like seven dudes while he's doing it. It's pretty awesome.

[AJ Henenberg]

Stinking love this book, dude.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's so good.

[AJ Henenberg]

I love it so much. It's been too long since I read it. I think I've read it twice. I need to go for it now.

[Thomas Magbee]

Those three embodiments are supposed to be the counterbalances to the nihilistic beliefs that like cultivating healthy a happy house and home where you have food and drink and grow things. Supporting and not even just supporting, but believing in strong institutions and hierarchy and civic society for the better. For. For like the benefit. For benefiting mankind and being open to the. The still that there is the mystery in God's created world that not everything is completely sewn up and that Christianity isn't kind of this like this like totally figured out universe that there is. There is a. An immensity to God's creation that we haven't fully realized. Those are the antidotes to. I want to sleep with all the girls and drink all the wine I'm going to be now I hate life and I'm super sad and I just want to go blow everything up or I just want to like throw myself into conquering so I don't have to think about death. Like that program is running itself pretty well in the world and Chesterton is saying the counterbalance to it is. Is sort of that there is a counterbalance to it.

[AJ Henenberg]

That is growth, civility and passion.

[Thomas Magbee]

And that is pro. I. I think that when we talk about what is the Christian society, that is the vision of the Christian society. It's not that everybody has is, you know, Benzene goes to church, but it's this belief.

[AJ Henenberg]

It's this idea of Narnia is organized but full of animals.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's right. Is that you've got this. What are the animals in the. Oh, okay.

[AJ Henenberg]

Like in Narnia, the talking animals.

[Thomas Magbee]

Gotcha.

[AJ Henenberg]

Like, yes, there's a hierarchy. Like, Aslan is there, the kings are there, but it's full of, like, talking animals. Like, he's a beaver doing beaver things. And there's things under the world, under the earth that are like, you know, the gnomes that live down there. And like, there's. It's a magical world. Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Building your home, building your family, having your home in hearth, having the belief in quote, unquote, Rome, meaning the organized society, and then being sort of open to the mystery of God's created order is the antidote to that nihilism. That. That I think is the big message of Chesterton's battle of the white Horse. And I think that that is. I think Carl Truman kind of gets at that in his rise and triumph of the modern self is that, like, this nihilistic program is going to run itself into either violence or whatever Gunthram has. And maybe the great hope is that Gunthram becomes baptized at the end as opposed to just brings. Burns everything down. And so, yeah, so, I mean, I don't know what the practical takeaways are. Maybe we can talk about that in the. In between is like, okay, I think.

[AJ Henenberg]

I think you gave enough. Like, what is it? What does the Christian life actually look like? I think that's great.

[Thomas Magbee]

Cool. That's it. That's all I got. I hope I landed the plane.

[AJ Henenberg]

I'm happy to report that all of the word salad that he told me before the episode, like, yeah, I'm on board. I get it. Like, yeah, this was a great episode. Like, this maybe ranks among my favorite. You've done well.

[Thomas Magbee]

You just love Chester.

[AJ Henenberg]

I really just love the book. I think. I think that's what's actually happening. Anyway, this has been Classical Stuff. You should know. You can check us out at our website. Classical stuff.net. you can patronize [e-mail] Classical stuff. You can tweet at us. Clsscal stuff. That's our at. We don't have a TikTok yet, but I'll get Graham right on it.

[Thomas Magbee]

I gotta learn all the dances.

[AJ Henenberg]

You can email us at the guys@classical stuff.net and yeah, we'd like to hear from you. Even if we don't always answer the emails, we still read them. We'd love to. You know, we try to get back to you when we can. You know, sometimes I just sit down and bang out like 20 of them. So if an answer doesn't come within a month, we still might answer you. We also might not. So, you know, just you can throw us an email. We try to more reliably answer the stuff that is on our patreon. We interact with you guys a lot and it's. I find it incredibly fun to talk to you guys on the little chat feature and leave messages and go back and forth and send pictures and stuff. So anyway, that's us. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Thomas Magbee]

Ciao.