264: An interview with Davies Owens and Keith McCurdy

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know Episode 264: An Interview with Davies Owens and Keith McCurdy Release Date: August 9, 2024

In this engaging episode of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee welcome special guests Davies Owens and Keith McCurdy. The conversation delves deep into the realm of classical education, exploring its alignment with faith, parenting, and the evolving educational landscape. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

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1. Welcome and Conference Experiences (00:08 - 02:03)

The episode kicks off with Davey Zones introducing Keith McCurdy and Davies Owens, who are attending the Paideia Conference hosted by Veritas Academy. Keith expresses enthusiasm about the collaborative spirit at the conference:

Keith McCurdy [00:52]: "Being in a collaborative school environment is quite remarkable... There's such an enthusiasm for partnering with the school. I just love the collaborative spirit."

Davies echoes this sentiment, highlighting the eagerness of parents to embrace a countercultural approach to education:

Davies Owens [01:20]: "From my background, dealing with families scared to live counterculturally, I love being at a conference like this where everyone is eager to live counter culture."

The guests also share their positive experiences exploring Austin's local cuisine, emphasizing the vibrant community atmosphere.

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2. Backgrounds in Classical Education (02:03 - 08:01)

Keith McCurdy provides a comprehensive overview of his journey to classical education, emphasizing his diverse background:

Keith McCurdy [02:24]: "I would say I'm kind of an educational mutt... Spent a number of years in local church ministry, worked in Silicon Valley, and then shifted to classical Christian administration."

Keith recounts a pivotal moment from his youth that ignited his interest in classical education:

Keith McCurdy [03:44]: "At 18, I saw children putting on Shakespeare plays... It was a classical Charlotte Mason education."

Davies Owens shares a similar trajectory, transitioning from mental health to classical education driven by the desire to align schooling with healthy parenting:

Davies Owens [04:49]: "We realized the schools had changed vastly... The classical Christian model aligns with healthy parenting, allowing children to struggle well."

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3. Alignment of Classical Education with Faith and Parenting (08:01 - 15:12)

Both guests emphasize how classical education harmonizes with their faith and parenting philosophies. Keith highlights the importance of transcendent objective truth in classical education:

Keith McCurdy [08:01]: "Classical education holds that there is transcendent objective truth... It aligns with healthy parenting by fostering perseverance and maturity in children."

Davies expands on this by connecting classical education to character development:

Davies Owens [07:53]: "Our job is to help children learn to struggle well... Equipping them with a faith foundation and healthy identity formation."

They discuss the shift from merely seeking successful and happy children to raising sturdy, capable individuals:

Keith McCurdy [10:19]: "The goal's not a happy, well-paid individual. The goal is someone of good character."

This focus on resilience and character over superficial success aligns with biblical teachings, particularly the Book of James, which emphasizes perseverance and maturity through trials.

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4. Trends and Observations in Classical Schools (15:12 - 22:47)

Keith McCurdy observes a significant rise in the number of classical schools, a trend partly accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic:

Keith McCurdy [11:24]: "There's a rise of parents banding together to start schools or homeschool co-ops... It's very encouraging."

He notes that modern parents are more intentional in choosing classical education, seeking not just safety but genuine growth for their children:

Keith McCurdy [12:58]: "Parents are now running to something... They want their children to grow in this intentional educational process."

Davies Owens adds that classical education is gaining recognition in higher education and the workforce, with colleges creating honors programs to attract classical Christian students:

Davies Owens [15:12]: "We're seeing colleges creating honors programs just to attract classical students... These students are producing impressive outcomes in the workforce."

The guests highlight attributes that set classical Christian students apart, such as strong work ethics, effective communication skills, humility, and a readiness to engage with the world.

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5. Challenges Facing Classical Education (22:47 - 33:09)

As classical education grows, Keith McCurdy identifies emerging challenges:

1. Parental Resources: Modern families often lack generational wisdom in parenting. Keith stresses the need for classical schools to support parents actively:

   Keith McCurdy [15:57]: "Parents need resources... We have to cultivate resources because they ultimately are desiring community."

2. Cultural Integration: Schools must navigate the intersection of church, home, and education to shape a cohesive culture:

   Keith McCurdy [15:57]: "How do we shape culture in the school and how does that relate to culture in the family?"

3. Resource Delivery: Traditional methods like emails are ineffective with today's busy parents. Davies and Keith introduce Zipcast as a solution:

   Davies Owens [21:48]: "Zipcast uses podcasting to deliver short, personalized content that fits into parents' busy schedules."

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6. Introduction and Impact of Zipcast (33:09 - 34:16)

Zipcast is a new venture aimed at providing classical schools with a modern, efficient way to communicate with parents. It offers:

• Short, Digestible Content: 10-minute episodes delivered on Monday mornings, perfect for parents on the go.
• Customized for Each School: Schools can submit their news and announcements, which Zipcast professionally voices and engineers.
• Interactive Features: Future versions will allow listeners to dive deeper into topics with longer segments.

Keith shares a heartwarming anecdote illustrating the community impact of Zipcast:

Keith McCurdy [30:08]: "During our pilot in Seattle, three third-grade girls recognized me from the podcast and encouraged their parents to engage more. It builds community."

Davies emphasizes that Zipcast aligns with their mission to support parents and strengthen the classical education community.

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7. The Enduring Impact of Classical Education (34:16 - 35:15)

Reflecting on the long-term benefits, Davies and Keith discuss how classical education equips students to navigate the real world effectively. Alumni return to share their positive experiences, highlighting the deep, lasting impact on their personal and professional lives.

Davies Owens [19:23]: "Alumni often come back and say, 'It equipped me to live in the real world.' They speak on every front, embodying the 'sturdy kid' concept."

Keith adds that graduates are prepared to face challenges with resilience and integrity:

Keith McCurdy [20:31]: "The vision is to raise sturdy, capable individuals who can make right decisions even when it's uncomfortable."

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8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts (35:06 - End)

As the conversation wraps up, Davies and Keith reiterate their commitment to being valuable resources for classical schools and parents. They encourage listeners to explore their respective podcasts and platforms for further insights.

Keith McCurdy [34:45]: "We're here to be a resource... Zipcast is another tool to help you cultivate those resources and supply them in a personal way."

Davey Zones thanks the guests for their time and contributions, emphasizing the importance of their mission in the classical education movement.

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Notable Quotes

• Keith McCurdy [00:52]: "There's such an enthusiasm for partnering with the school. I just love the collaborative spirit."
• Davies Owens [03:44]: "At 18, I saw children putting on Shakespeare plays... It was a classical Charlotte Mason education."
• Keith McCurdy [08:01]: "Classical education holds that there is transcendent objective truth... It aligns with healthy parenting by fostering perseverance and maturity in children."
• Davies Owens [15:12]: "We're seeing colleges creating honors programs just to attract classical students... These students are producing impressive outcomes in the workforce."
• Keith McCurdy [15:57]: "Parents need resources... We have to cultivate resources because they ultimately are desiring community."
• Keith McCurdy [20:31]: "The vision is to raise sturdy, capable individuals who can make right decisions even when it's uncomfortable."

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This episode offers a profound exploration of classical education's role in shaping resilient, faith-aligned individuals. By addressing current trends, challenges, and innovative solutions like Zipcast, Davies Owens and Keith McCurdy provide valuable insights for educators, parents, and anyone invested in the classical education movement.

Transcript

[Davey Zones]

Hello, and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know. I feel like I should be introducing AJ and Graham right now, but I actually have two special guests for the podcast today. Excited to welcome to the podcast Davey Zones.

[Keith McCurdy]

Hey, good to be here with you.

[Davey Zones]

And Keith McCurdy.

[Unknown Speaker]

Hey, good to be here.

[Davey Zones]

How are y'all doing?

[Keith McCurdy]

We're doing great.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Doing well.

[Davey Zones]

So y'all are in town for the Paideia conference. So that's a conference that Veritas Academy puts on. It's for the parents of the school. It's for teachers of the school. And you all have given a number of talks over the last two days. I just pulled up a couple of these. The cultural moment, challenges and opportunities. Living in the therapeutic age, Engaging the heart at school and home. And some talks on technology as well. How's it been? How have you all enjoyed the Paideia conference so far?

[Keith McCurdy]

We have loved being here. We were just saying before we turn the mics on, being in a collaborative school environment is quite remarkable. Walking around your campus, it is packed. Moms and dads everywhere. There's such a enthusiasm for partnering with the school. I just love the collaborative spirit.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And I love. From my background, you know, I. I deal with families so much that are scared half to death sometimes to. To live somewhat counterculturally. And I love being at a conference like this where everyone is eager to live counter culture.

[Keith McCurdy]

Everyone's a stepchild, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Everybody wasn't in a redheaded ostrich.

[Keith McCurdy]

Is that what it is?

[Unknown Speaker]

A redhead ostrich in the neighborhood? And there's such an eagerness to say we really want to do this? Well, we're looking for that equipping.

[Davey Zones]

That's great.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

And have y'all been to Austin before? Is this yalls first time here?

[Keith McCurdy]

I have been here before, but we definitely had to make our food rounds.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's what I was wondering.

[Davey Zones]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Did y'all have some time before the conference, or are you straight from the.

[Keith McCurdy]

Airport to the best barbecue we could find?

[Unknown Speaker]

To Salt Lick.

[Davey Zones]

To Salt Lake. That's great.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Driftwood Got a brisket.

[Keith McCurdy]

And then we got up this morning a little bit early and hit a taco truck.

[Unknown Speaker]

Taco truck.

[Davey Zones]

You're getting the full.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I was here a couple years ago. I had Veritas doing some things, so. Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

And probably the best part about the Austin airport is you still get Salt Lick that you can get at the airport.

[Unknown Speaker]

At the airport. Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

Even at the airport. So it's all that local food there so much that's Very good. Well, good. Let's, you know, we've kind of started talking about the conference a little bit, but curious to hear about Yalls background again. Listeners have already heard your bio at the beginning of the episode, but just looking to hear about how you all came to classical education. Your background in classical education. Davies, do you want to kick it off and talk a little about that?

[Keith McCurdy]

Yeah, no, I definitely, I would say I'm kind of an educational mutt. I did not come through this, through maybe typical doors that there are even typical doors. I was just, you know, I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, Jesus follower. Kind of felt like, well, let me go spend my life hopefully improving the work of Christ in the world. And spent a number of years in local church ministry. And then I realized, gosh, we've got to connect with people on the go. And ended up doing a doctoral dissertation, worked in Silicon Valley technology background, worked with a former Walt Disney imagineer and then had a young daughter who was trying to figure out school. And I thought, how do we educate the next generation? We have 16,000 hours. So it kind of awakened me to the way I went to school, which is an eclectic mix of public school and some private prep school. And I thought the world's changed. So ended up on the board of a classical Christian school and ended up staying around so long that they made me the interim and then I became the head. And then I realized like, if we really want to change the world, that 16,000 hours is where it's at. So I've been 23rd year now in classical Christian administration and now really working on the national stage. I think, as many have said, probably the last best hope we have right now for our civilization other than Jesus.

[Davey Zones]

I want to definitely come back to that. So there really was like when you were looking for it was education for your own daughter. That's what kind of prompted you to start looking into classical education again.

[Keith McCurdy]

For brevity. I'm leaving out a few major pieces of that, but I mean, kind of the defining moment I would actually track back to when I was 18. My mother had gone through a agnostic period in the 70s and read Francis Schaeffer's book. And I ended up at Labrie Fellowship as a young teen and ended up at 18 going back there. And I remember Susan Schaefer, Macaulay Shaffer's daughter, was raising her children. And I remember as sort of a, you know, pop culture oriented 18 year old bumbling around looking at these young children that were putting on Shakespeare plays for fun and Were articulate and creative and imaginative. And I thought, I don't know what they're drinking over here in Switzerland, but those are different kids. She said it's a, it's a classical Charlotte Mason education. So I filed that away. And then when I had my daughter, I was like, we've got to go find one of these classical schools. So I'd seen the, I'd seen the product before I even understood how it happened.

[Davey Zones]

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And I think a lot of your stories, I know similar for A.J. graham and I, like, we don't come from this classical background. Right. We're not like raised in this classical method, but we kind of come to it, come to it later in life.

[Keith McCurdy]

Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

Keith, you want to talk a little.

[Unknown Speaker]

Bit about that too? It's in some ways a similar story. Being in the field of mental health for over 35 years, dealing with thousands of families, when we started looking at educating our children and paying attention to, you know, what are the schools that, that are in our town, schools that my wife and I grew up in, but realizing that is not where we want to educate our children because they've changed so vastly. And a new school had been around for a few years and I started dealing with parents through what I do professionally from a classical school. And, and we visited and thought, yeah, this is really where we want to be. Because it lined up with two key things. It lined up both with what we believed was true in the sense of transcendent truth. It did not just present as neutral to our faith, it actually encouraged a common faith. And the second thing is the model of the Christian classical school matches and aligns with what healthy parenting looks like. You know, we allow our children to struggle with good things and we equip them to learn to struggle well. And so when we saw that in the educational process that we knew was a part of really raising healthy kids, it was kind of a no brainer. And then so our kids started going to a classical school. My daughter, I think, was in second or third grade. My son started in kindergarten, first grade, and it wasn't long. And my daughter and her friends talked the head of school into me being a basketball coach, that I didn't know I was a basketball coach till they told me I was a basketball coach.

[Davey Zones]

Surprise, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

So we ended up coaching in a school for 11 years, years, having a kind of an interesting aspect of that, and then served on a board for eight years. So much like Davies, kind of once we got exposed to the world, it kind of Enveloped us in many different ways. And my wife and I were very involved in many different ways in that school during the life of our children's education. And they've continued to stay in that world as well, just passionate about this way of educating our children and how it aligns with healthy parenting. And so that's led us, led me to consulting. And along the way, he and I bumped into each other. And it's been a crazy ride after that. Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

And then I guess I'm curious to hear, does that kind of classical method or worldview does that. Then when you talk about this enveloping, does that relate also to your counseling as well? Like, do you see that there were there changes to your practice, I guess, before being involved in kind of the classical world?

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, I wouldn't say that. I think that involvement in the classical world also aligned with my practice. You know, very simple reality of. Unfortunately, with psychology today, most people see psychology as holding truth when it doesn't. Scripture holds truth. And so the sieve can't be psychology. The sieve has to be scripture. And it's not buying into a lot of psychological thinking. The idea of how we feel is the most important part of who we are. That's really kind of rubbish. And transcendent truth is what we have to look at in how we guide people to live better. And so practicing in that way and having that focus, that's one of the things that when I was exposed to a classical education, it really stuck out because it aligned with what I teach people, how I coach people, how I work with people in living their lives. And so seeing an educational process that does that from the beginning is valuable.

[Davey Zones]

When you talk about classical education lining up with these healthy parenting practices, is that in the same line of what you're talking about now, or is there more to say there of like what?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, a couple things stand out. It's funny, I speak on this a lot. It's the idea of two things that really jump out. Number one, classical education holds that there is transcendent objective truth. And many parents struggle today because we're looking at so many subjective opinions about the 48 different ways to parent your children versus getting back to. Wait a minute. There is a transcendent objective truth about what is best for children and how we are to raise them and seeking that when we pursue that, it's amazing how the process becomes more simple. Doesn't mean it's not bumpy, but it's simple. And the second is the aspect of growth we see in Scripture. When you think about passage in scripture that relates to parenting, it's not the one most parents think of. It's the beginning of the book of James. I'll paraphrase. Consider pure joy whenever we face trials develops perseverance. What's perseverance? The ability to stick with someone's tough. Perseverance must finish its work so that we're complete or mature. And that's really our. That gives us both the goal and process of healthy parenting, which is the goal is maturity. Children who can live well when it's difficult, children who can make the right decisions when it's uncomfortable. And the process is healthy struggle, helping them navigate. And so when you look at the classical world, it's the same thing. We say, we know, we accept there is a transcendent truth that speaks into all of this experience. And a lot of that is engaged in the shaping of the affections and identity formation that we touch on and deal with in the classical world. And we also know that rigor is important and rigor as best understood, the way I look at it is a process that life is going to be bumpy and hard, and we need to be willing to engage it. We don't make it hard on purpose, but we don't run away from it. And we want to equip these students to learn to struggle well. And so those blend beautifully, I think, with healthy parenting and the classical education. For sure.

[Davey Zones]

Yeah. It's a word that I think it's in your episodes on Basecamp Live, where building sturdy kids. Sturdiness is a concept that will come up over and over again. I just like that of like, there's a purpose to that rigor. There's a purpose to being pushed. It's. You're resilient.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. I ask parents all the time, in a lot of conferences, I say, how many? Raise your hands if you would like to raise successful, happy children and the whole room for them. Everyone.

[Davey Zones]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And then I say, now raise your hand if you would like to raise sturdy, capable children. And everybody looks around and then they raise their hands again.

[Davey Zones]

Doesn't sound as exciting, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And I say, the reality is when you pursue the first, you don't get it. When you pursue the second, it's amazing what you get. And you get more peace and joy and hope and things in their lives. And it really calls those parents to understand that difference. What. What's the goal? The goal's not a happy, well paid individual. The goal is a good citizen. The goal is someone of good character.

[Davey Zones]

Well, good. So that's very helpful. Appreciate that on the backgrounds. So I'm just looking to hear y'all have mentioned this across both your answers. You know, our experience is tied to, you know, one classical school in Austin, where AJ and Graham are teaching currently, where I worked at previously. So, you know, we're kind of tied in for one community. But you all have this exposure across multiple schools, both that you've been involved with in terms of working with, as you all described, but also you speak regularly, you travel to these schools. I'm just curious to see what you all notice. Like, what are the things that. What are trends that you're noticing across classical schools? And, you know, we'll move into kind of advice, things that will help broadly. But just what are things that you notice going from school to school, Dave, is the only thing.

[Keith McCurdy]

I think it's first of all, just the very fact that there are so many schools to go between, which wasn't.

[Davey Zones]

The case when we first started, which.

[Keith McCurdy]

Is not the case at all 20 some years ago. And certainly Covid has kind of lit the fire under so many, you know, what I call salt and light parents, or, well, intending that went, wow, that's what they're learning down the street. And, oh, wow, this is more than just reading, writing, arithmetic. It's actually forming the things that they love. So that notion of really shaping the affections. So there's definitely been a rise, as I'm sure you've seen here, of parents just saying, we got to do. We got to rethink this. We got to do it differently. And so it is extremely encouraging, as I look around the world, literally, that you see families that are banding together to little startup schools or homeschool co ops or collaborative schools, five day. I mean, so all of the above in the classical space, it's very encouraging.

[Davey Zones]

And want to be involved. Like, it's. It's not just to send the kids off. I hope maybe this will be a trend, but like, at least for Veritas, it's like these parents really want to be involved in the lives of their kids. Like they are. They're sold on this method and then also sold on this collaborative approach where at least for Veritas, it's like this part homeschool part in school. Like, it's not.

[Keith McCurdy]

Yeah, there's definitely a general trend in modern parenting, even in Christian modern parenting, to outsource. You know, it's a very. That's kind of a millennial way of thinking. Drop off your car to get the Oil change, dry cleaning, and drop your kid on, pick them up. But I think more and more we're realizing if we don't own that those moments when our children's affections are being shaped and collaborate. That's one of the things we talked about this morning is this sort of the influence zones of the home and the school. Those two together lock arms. It's a formidable influence.

[Davey Zones]

Absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And I think too, what's interesting to a change that you just mentioned is we are seeing schools now where parents are more intentional. My child is here for a reason. I'm not running from something, I'm now running to something. And that's a change from 20 years ago, and we still see it today. I read accreditation reports from schools all the time. And still the number one reason parents want their child at a classical school is the faith aspect. Or in essence, what they're saying is the safety aspect. And we're seeing that begin to shift. It's like, actually, no, it's. We want them to grow in this way. We, we want to be intentional about choosing the form, the process of this education. And I think that's why also we're seeing parents buying into being more connected to it. They don't just see it as we're offloading this to somebody else or we're just putting them in a safe space. It's. We actually want this to be a growth prospect. And, and so it matters then what is this growing? How is it growing them? And so they're leaning in a whole lot more, which I think is wonderful, but it creates challenges for the school.

[Davey Zones]

Do you want to say more about that?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, a couple challenges, you know, that I see around the country. A couple questions that are constantly asked that were not asked 10 years ago as much. Number one, parents need a resource. You know, 10, 15 years ago, classical schools were like, well, we don't touch parenting. That's not our job. And my point has been, well, you have to be a resource. You have to cultivate resources for these parents because they ultimately are desiring community. You know, I deal with parents, they say, you want me to be back to the red headed ostrich in the neighborhood? You're calling me to be that. And I say, yeah, I really am. That's how you live rightly. And they say, if I only had a community. And so what we're seeing now, the challenge to the classical world is how can we be that community? How can we be that community that really helps cultivate things that are valuable to these parents beyond the classroom. And that creates then another challenge in the mix. It's always been a challenge, but I think it's a richer challenge now. And I hear this constantly is, how do we shape culture in the school? And so those are things that I know Davies and I talk about all the time. What are the things that affect our culture in the school? How does that relate to culture in the family? And, wow, maybe those are connected and if we can help lead that with the community we build at that school, it's amazing how that helps parents as well.

[Davey Zones]

Go for it.

[Keith McCurdy]

It's another kind of angle on this. Is what I'm seeing trending quite a bit are individuals that are in the workspace workforce that are looking at employees and saying, we can't find people to show up on time to have a strong work ethic and kind of noticing that these classical Christian kids are different. We're seeing colleges now creating honors programs just to attract class. So we've gone from, again, being a little bit of the odd one out to, like, we want those, we want those. And it's quite true. I think that it's. In some cases, I've seen parents who found a student out in the marketplace and said, how did that work then? I want that for my children. And I know patent attorney in Boise, where I'm living, that says, I will only hire classical Christian students because they actually get the job done. Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

I was gonna say, what is that thing that's different? Or what is it that sets them apart just from people you've talked with your experience? Like, yeah, what is that attribute or set of attributes?

[Keith McCurdy]

Keith and I were talking about this earlier. I mean, it's like the bar continues to get to be so low. It's like, wow, wow. We're not wearing pajamas and you're not wearing a sleeping bag and hopping into my classroom. Like, wow. I mean, in all seriousness, I mean, it's just these things that would have just been common sense 50 years ago. I mean, looking at. Look someone else in the eye, know how to introduce yourself. We were at dinner last night with many of the board members here at Veritas, and I was just talking about, as we kind of those of us who now have. Are in the empty nesting stage. It can truly look back and say, I see the fruit in my own children. I see their ability to go out and, you know, be able to meet with the head of a financial organization and be able to advocate for yourself and to present yourself well. I mean, these are things that Everyone should be able to do. But classical Christian students absolutely can do well.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. We see in these students, when they get to college or beyond college or into the career field, into the workforce, we see an eagerness to engage the world because they're better equipped. They build a sense of confidence. They often have good humility as well. We don't know everything, but we're eager to learn. We think we can figure things out. We know how to engage people. We know we're told to engage people. I mean, it's just we have equipped them to be connected members of society, and so that stands out more than it ever has in society. Go ahead.

[Keith McCurdy]

I mean, what you guys talk about so well on your podcast is obviously looking at these historical works and the cultural and the historical impact. I mean, obviously we sit here as the product of a Western Judeo Christian heritage that instill deeply a curiosity, a wonder, a sense of the world is worth knowing. We're not Buddhists escaping into the cosmic drop of ocean of life. I mean, we are. And that's where, you know, universities and hospitals, I mean, we've always been in a place of innovating and creating and discovering, which is what we are now seeing come out of this education back into the workforce.

[Unknown Speaker]

And when I go back to the wording, you know, you mentioned, I use the wording sturdy kids, raising sturdy kids. I have parents often ask me, what's a sturdy kid? And I say, well, a sturdy kid is someone who is not afraid to struggle. And so our job is not to remove all their struggle, which societally, that's what we do. Our job is to help them to learn, to struggle well. And that requires, I mean, so much, you know, faith foundation, learning the tools, learning the practical application, healthy identity formation. And when we do that, we have individuals at the next stage that are ready to engage, invent, think deeply about things. I mean, it's just we're setting them on fire and they're blazing.

[Davey Zones]

That's just when I was trying to find a time for this interview and was looking through the Paideia conference schedule. There's one that's for alumni. Has that happened already? Do you all know Graham and AJ are sitting in the room? It might be today, but I think it's four alums, AJ's leading that discussion. So it's four alumni who are coming back, I think. Isn't the question, was classical education worth it?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, that's the last question.

[Davey Zones]

That's the last question. They don't answer it. AJ says hopefully they give the right Answer. But yeah, like that you have students who want to come back and talk about their experience positively. Like, if my high school called me up, I probably would not be on that panel. Right. Like, I don't know. So just that there is that like gratitude for what is received. I think that just lines up exactly.

[Unknown Speaker]

With what y'all are talking about.

[Keith McCurdy]

Not only gratitude, but so often I see alumni that go off and, you know, we were just talking about this earlier. It's messy business. I mean, we don't judge these graduates as they walk off. Give them some time to go, kind of own their faith. But in that messiness and in that self discovery of what does it mean? Am I going to really follow Jesus? Am I really going to believe all this? There's an awareness like, wow, I had it pretty good back there. A lot of our alumni will come back at Christmas and just immediately walk in and like, oh my goodness. I remember one alumni and I've heard this from my own kids. Like, I can't wait to go talk to that 12th grade teacher. Because they actually, they were actually articulate and thoughtful and it wasn't just superficiality that I'm so used to. Maybe at my.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, I think of my daughter. My daughter will be the first to tell you, oh my gosh, the things I hated in school. I hated the uniform, I hated this, you know. But she will say, you know, it really equipped me to live in the real world. It equipped me to navigate the real world. And she's speaking on every front. And I think that's, to me, that's so much more of a portrait of a graduate, someone who's equipped to struggle well than this perfect picture.

[Davey Zones]

Yeah, sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because they're all going to get out and struggle because we've equipped them now. But now they have to go out and find that and own it for real.

[Davey Zones]

I forget that I'm not going to get the language right, but the portrait of a graduate for Veritas is called the Veritas Valiant. And there's a poem. Y'all still use that poem, right, that describes each of those attributes. And one of them is, I'm going to get it wrong. But it's like when they make mistakes, they make things right. And so it's not just like, again, it's not this only. It's not only the good man or woman speaking well, it is also like the person who errs and then fesses up and then makes it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, C.S. lewis. Surely what a man does when he's taken off his guard is the best indicator of what sort of man he is. It's not about what happens to you, it's what do you choose to do with it. And we equip students to be able to respond to that.

[Davey Zones]

Well, that's great. Well, I guess just kind of in line with this then. And maybe this will tie in, Keith, with what you were talking about on resourcing. So there are more demands on classical schools now than there were 20 years ago. You know, it's not only education. You both have the material that you're teaching. Be that the old books, history, each of the subjects. You have this faith component that's very important. But there's even more than that. There's kind of like parenting methodology. There's more even than just what's in the curriculum. So I was hoping to talk a little bit. Y'all have just started this new. This new venture called Zipcast that is hoping to address some of these issues related to resourcing. So I was just hoping to hear a little bit about that. Yeah, Davies, do you want to talk about that?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Keith McCurdy]

You know, my concern is I look broadly at our movement. I mean, as you just well articulated, there's a lot we do really well. We stand in. And this isn't the latest and greatest trend. This is a historical movement that has shaped generations forever. At the same time, we have to go live out in the context that God has put us into. I've done a lot of short term mission work and it's always amazing me. If you're going to go off to Rwanda where I've spent time, the team will spend a lot of time thinking about the cultural setting in which we're going to go help this classical Christian school. But then we come back domestically and it's like, and I'm a Gen Xer. I always think, you know what, it's not the 80s anymore. And the problem is the students and the parents are showing up, are living in a different cultural moment. And we talk a lot about technology because that's changed the landscape of the modern hymn. So my part of what I believe is so urgently needed are two things. One is, as Keith mentioned, the old three legged stool of there's the church and the home and the school. And we were always sort of afraid to cross over into each other's jurisdictions. I think we have to rethink that right now. And I think we have to recognize that there's a lot of content that a lot of young families need about parenting 101 that just isn't. You know, there's a Pew study out that said 30%, only 30% of families live within a 100 mile geographical distance of their extended family. So generational wisdom is not happening. There is no James Dobson. That might be Keith here in the making. I believe that's happening. But in all seriousness, as I've traveled around the country, young families, they don't know how to parent. And so how are we going to reach those goals of the graduate if they don't understand basic parenting? And then secondly, the constant question is, well, what is classical Christian? And they picked the school because the uniforms are cute and it wasn't scary like the school down the street. We got to really go deeper. The problem that gets to Zipcast and what we're working on is a delivery problem, which is the reality is most schools use what I call 1998 delivery system systems. We still, I think we've moved from mimeographs and cassette tapes to probably, I know, email mailchimps and stuff with about a 15% open rate. And so the problem is it's not to be critical of the parent. We are living in a different moment where people want things short form, personalized, on the go. And so podcasting, which you guys know well, is a wonderful delivery system. I have families that will say to me, every time I hear your voice, I think I cut grass. I'm like, why? Because I'm always cutting the grass when I listen to the podcast. That's exactly why we do the podcast, because you don't have to get childcare, drive down the building and do the deal.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right?

[Keith McCurdy]

So zipcast was born out of an idea a couple of years ago, which is using podcasting. But let's shrink that thing down to about 10 minutes. Let's deliver it on Monday morning. Right when you're getting in the minivan, you're thinking, oh my goodness, what's going to happen this week? Let's give you your news and announcements in about two minutes. Let's kind of sweeten up the pot a little bit. Since the kids are in the backseat, we'll throw a joke of the day with a grammar schooler in there. And then we'll use these kind of 92nd, almost like little movie trailers to just take a topic. Like, let's hit 90 seconds parenting tip. Keith's on all the time. Just here's something you ought to think about in your marriage or in your family. Or let's take a classical topic and unpack a crazy word we use. Like, what's the trivium or Paideia or. We even talked with you guys about the great books. I mean, what are the things that. And then we end with scripture, all that in 10 minutes. It's working really well because we build those four schools where they give us a news announcements, we cobble it together, send it back out to their parents branded as their school on a Monday morning. I think it's just that kind of. I'm excited because I feel like, can we use the modern Roman roads, the modern delivery systems to help come alongside parents with the content they need, encouraging them on the go with what they need to know. And that's a lot of.

[Unknown Speaker]

And how that harmonizes with so much that I approach with families and parents. It's interesting. Well, I'll give you real time information. So the school that my children went to, I also have nieces that have their children in that school. So our school started zipcast last week or this week, I guess. Gosh, it's this week. Traveling only where I am in the country. And I was flying here on Monday and I got a phone call or a text from my niece and I called her back. She goes, oh, my gosh, I heard you. That is awesome. And I said, you know, I'm like, was it good? I said, well, what'd you think? And she said, it was simple, it was useful, and it was consumable. Good. And I told Davies more like, yeah, that's exactly what it is. Because when I deal with parents, when I deal with families, and this is the model that, that Dave and I have talked about forever, it's one I've operated on for years. It has to be. You have to identify the problem correctly, understand the principle that rules the problem, and then give a practical application. And so that simple understanding, when I deal with parents, if I tell them 28 things, I confuse them.

[Davey Zones]

Sure.

[Unknown Speaker]

If we focus on one key thing, what's the principle that applies and how do you apply it? Well, and so it really lends itself, well, so much to exactly the format that Davies created, which is, let's use what's there as a tool, as a resource in a way that's so consumable and practical. And so it's blended what we've really been attempting to do anyway, through podcasts, realizing do it shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter. And it's.

[Keith McCurdy]

And I think it's especially. It's hard for us to come to terms with. I say this all the time back to the audience. The parents who walk in our doors are typically different, younger than many of us that run the schools. And I think we have to kind of rethink. And I think there's a. I had a faculty member of a different school say to me about Zipcast, Zipcast makes me sad. I thought, oh dear, why is that? And I thought, that's not good. I said, that's first negative thing I've heard. Why is that? She said, well, it's not that it's really zipcast. I said, it's confirming what I've been fearing all along, that people's attention spans really are shorter than Goldfish. And that so often we're in this. Stuck in this state of like, well, we want our parents to read these great books and we have book clubs, but only three parents show up. And like, how. So the intention is not to.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're not giving up on the one we're not.

[Keith McCurdy]

We're using. That's like saying, well, movie trailers are killing all the big movies. It's like, no, let's meet you where you are and invite you into deeper connection and embodied experiences. So Zipcast, actually, as we're kind of developing the next version of it, it's going to be able to add. You can click it while you're listening and add a longer version of that particular topic to go deeper into that if you want to. So it's not meant to just cater to the superficial. It's meant to say, but let's acknowledge that we need to meet people where they are and then invite them into a deeper understanding and training.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. With technology, you know, one of the things we wrestle with is, you know, I speak on technology all the time. Dave and I, we've done a couple different podcasts on technology. One recently baselining. And I, I would say in my profession or even culturally, I take some of the hardest lines on technology, but I'm not anti technology. You know, it really falls into three categories. If technology is a tool for something useful that we deem good and valuable, it can be a wonderful thing. I mean, the wheel in the airplane is technology. I would not be here if it wasn't for them. I was not going to walk here from Virginia.

[Davey Zones]

Very thankful for that.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so technology, when we keep it in the realm of healthy use, it can be good when it slides into primary entertainment. Filler of boredom is when it's the most addictive and dysfunctional. And so the idea is technology in and of itself may not be automatically bad. It's how we use it, what we use it for. And so what we've wrestled with is are we, you know, we don't want to steer people to more technology use that's unnecessary, but we want to use this well in an appropriate way as a healthy tool.

[Davey Zones]

Sure.

[Keith McCurdy]

And we've seen that with, I mean, Basecamp Live now in its eighth year, which is longer, 45 minute podcast. But, you know, and I, when we started, I actually had somebody come up to me and said, podcasting. Now, is that a gardening thing? Like throwing seeds out? Like, wow. We are early in this experience. But in all. But again, it's meant to encourage people on the go. So, you know, Minnie Van Mary, Soccer dad Sam are kind of young. And the idea is, if we're going to raise a generation what feels like the top of Mount Everest, along the way, we need to stop in these base camps and encourage each other, be a part of a community that you were talking about. I mean, it does take a village. It takes a community of people. Chapp Clark, in his book Sticky Faith, talks about the students that go the distance are. Because not only mom and dad were on board and the church is dialed in, but you need four or five others that are part of that collective community, which is part of what you guys are doing here at Veritas. That's part of your students.

[Unknown Speaker]

You're reinforcing multiple voices of the same community, holding up the same things.

[Keith McCurdy]

Right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Keith McCurdy]

We're all crazy together.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right? We're all crazy together.

[Keith McCurdy]

Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

I do appreciate with Zipcast, that it is. It's. It's a more communal experience that, you know, podcasts. Listening to podcasts can be isolating. Right. It can be just me with my headphones, but it is designed for. It's the drive to the somebody.

[Keith McCurdy]

Yeah. Somebody says, kind of like you bringing back the 1940s, you know, fireside Radio and one of the great stories, Keith.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, I'll tell it some in Seattle. Yeah, Seattle last year.

[Keith McCurdy]

This is during our pilot when we were launching this thing. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And Davies did a pilot.

[Davey Zones]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I didn't know when it was dropping. So I'm in Seattle to school, and I come in in the morning, and they got all the. All the grammar school kids running around, and I'm just sitting in the back of a chapel area waiting for the older students to come in. And the head of school is talking to me and introduces me to another parent right there. And these three little girls whip around and they're like, Are you Mr. McCurdy? And I'm like, yeah. Oh, my gosh, we heard you on the radio. And do you know, we made sure our parents went out on a date. We told them they had to because Mr. McCurdy's. I mean, I was. Yeah, I had to call him. I'm like, I am a celebrity now. To three little third grade girls listening.

[Keith McCurdy]

In the back of the minivan.

[Unknown Speaker]

Back in the minivan. But they heard parents need to spend time together for their. For the benefit of their marriage. And they were letting me know we're on it. So it is. It's very. It's a community. And it just totally shocked me. I called him and he's like, that's awesome.

[Davey Zones]

That is incredible. And that you have the entire school listening to that together too. Then, like, you have parents who are. To each other being like, you know, you all should be going on your date night as well. Right. Like, everyone is listening to that.

[Unknown Speaker]

It builds that in the community.

[Keith McCurdy]

I mean, it's kind of the Swiss army and I for the survival kit for the week, because it's, you know, you need to know the news and announcements. Maybe you didn't open your email. It's practical. And then you get these wonderful kind of parenting hacks and classical 101s and even a little scripture tucked in at the end with some questions to ask. So it really is a kid joke. As a kid joke, as a kid joke. Most important part, we have a hidden word of the week in there. I mean, so it should be, you know, multiple reasons to make this work.

[Davey Zones]

I'm trying to remember is the Davey's listening to your interview on Basecamp Live. You talked about, like, the schools being able to record a section and that being included.

[Keith McCurdy]

Yeah.

[Davey Zones]

Is that the current version?

[Keith McCurdy]

Yeah, current 1.0. And we launched a little over 60 days ago. We have over 50 schools. Right. We're gonna now wait list. Part of it is because it was designed to be easy. Schools literally send us in two and a half. A two and a half minute script of whatever news announcements or updates they want. We have professional voice talent that reads it. We have audio engineers that stitch that together. You get to preview it on a Friday and it drops to parents on a Monday. So if it takes 10 minutes in the week for the school, it shouldn't take more than that. But it's branded as their school. It's their news and announcements. And yet it's really what the AP News Syndicate. I want to think I'm a genius. I'm really not. It's really just most of the world today, your local newspaper pulls from a national syndicate of great so. So that's one of the things, back to your earlier questions that I see is that we've got to. We're not a franchise, but we need to act a little bit more like that because, you know, every school's asking, why do we do fill in the blank Latin or what? So let's answer that in an excellent way at a national level and bring that down.

[Davey Zones]

Common questions, and then also excellent resources that just need to be curated and delivered to the school.

[Keith McCurdy]

And back to parenting again, this is the thing to your point, I mean, we've had in our jurisdiction struggle. It's like, well, we are gonna. We schools are now not only educating the children, we gotta walk next to parents. And that's part of the. That's hard to do when your plate is already full.

[Unknown Speaker]

So let us help you. And we shouldn't be afraid of just saying, hey, we're going to cultivate resources. And Zipcast is another tool that says, hey, we can help you cultivate those resources and supply them in a way that's personal to your school.

[Davey Zones]

Yeah, that's great. Well, we're getting close on time right now, so I want to make sure that I mentioned we've referenced it a few times, but, Davies, I want to recommend your podcast Basecamp Live. Big fan of the podcast. And also Keith, you can be found on that. You have some episodes as well. I do a bunch in there as well.

[Keith McCurdy]

So he's really getting close to co host. I don't know.

[Davey Zones]

When you cross over, that's not official, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know.

[Keith McCurdy]

I don't know. I'm still keeping my eye on him, but I'm pretty close to.

[Davey Zones]

Well, when I went to Keith's website and, like, clicked on podcast, it redirected to Base Camp Live.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's like a majority of them are Base Camp.

[Keith McCurdy]

Keith's pretty. Pretty common. And in fact, the one that's currently just dropped yesterday, it happens to be. Oh, yeah, with aj.

[Davey Zones]

AJ and Graham are on that one.

[Keith McCurdy]

There you go.

[Davey Zones]

And did y'all talk about. Was it. Did y'all talk about Paradise Lost in the Odyssey or what y'all talk about? Great books. Plato and AJ Blacked out. Cool. Awesome. Sounds great.

[Unknown Speaker]

So you did talk about the Odyssey.

[Keith McCurdy]

I ask him about it because this is the whole. This is. I love what you guys do because there's, like. I call it the gap of. We have this sort of interesting philosophical, theological, literary conversation. But link that up for me with Tik Tok world that people are living in. And you guys did such a great job. So definitely go. Go listen to that.

[Unknown Speaker]

I live on Tik Tok.

[Keith McCurdy]

Oh, no, we really don't want you on TikTok.

[Davey Zones]

Stay away.

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't think anybody wants me on.

[Keith McCurdy]

No.

[Davey Zones]

Nor anybody to be go listen to their technology talk. Yeah, seriously. And then want to make sure also, Keith, your website, livesturdy.com can check out resources from you again, can be redirected to your basecamp live episodes from there also. Yeah, just all your resources there. Anything else to make sure we talk about at the end? Any final words?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I think part of the reason we are here is we have partnered together because we want to be a resource. Even personally. We consult with a lot of schools, come visit a lot of schools, speak to a lot of schools. And I think that, you know, that's another resource that schools are still learning about that there are folks out there that are saying, hey, we'll come to your school and help you with this.

[Davey Zones]

Absolutely. Very thankful for you all coming out to Austin to be at Veritas for the Paideia conference. Very thankful to have you all on the podcast. But Dave, use Keith, thank you all so much for your time.

[Unknown Speaker]

Thank you for having us.

[Davey Zones]

Thank you. Appreciate it. And bye, listeners. Bye.