266: A Parley with Youth

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know - Episode 266: A Parley with Youth

Release Date: September 10, 2024
Hosts: A.J. Hananberg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magby

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1. Introduction and Context

The episode opens with hosts Graham Donaldson, Thomas Magby, and A.J. Hananberg welcoming listeners to Classical Stuff You Should Know, a podcast dedicated to exploring classical literature, philosophy, art, and potentially music. The trio introduces themselves and briefly discusses the scope of their show, emphasizing their passion for the classical world and their aim to make it accessible and enjoyable for both educators and laypeople.

Notable Quote:

• Graham Donaldson [00:00]: "Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff You Should Know. This is a podcast about classical works of literature, fiction, classical philosophy, art. Hey, maybe music. Why not?"

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2. Overview of Josh Gibbs and "A Parley with Youth"

The primary focus of this episode is Josh Gibbs' latest book, A Parley with Youth. Gibbs is highlighted as a classical educator with a background at Veritas in Virginia and currently spearheading a classical teaching institute at the Ambrose School in Idaho. The book comprises 13 dialogues between Gibbs, students, and teachers, addressing various challenges and moral dilemmas faced by high schoolers.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Magby [02:22]: "We're here to talk about the newest book from Mr. Josh, A Parley with Youth. So I guess our connection here for it being classical is that he is a classical educator..."
• Graham Donaldson [03:09]: "It's got a big, bushy beard."

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3. Role-Playing Dialogue: "On Loopholes"

To delve into the book's content, the hosts perform a dramatized reading of one of the dialogues titled "On Loopholes." Graham embodies the student, Marcus, while Thomas and A.J. portray the teacher, Gibbs. The dialogue explores a scenario where Marcus attempts to exploit a loophole to submit a late assignment by skipping class, prompting Gibbs to confront the ethical implications of such behavior.

Notable Exchange:

• Marcus [26:06]: "Why'd you count my paper late?"
• Gibbs [26:12]: "The paper was due on Friday and you turned it in on Monday."
• Marcus [26:25]: "But if I wasn't in your class to turn it in, why isn't it marked late?"
• Gibbs [27:05]: "Skipping class to get a few extra days to work on an assignment is not the kind of plan you would present to a teacher prior to the fact, is it?"

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4. Discussion on Teaching Approaches: Confrontation vs. Flexibility

Post-dialogue, the hosts analyze Gibbs' direct and uncompromising approach to student misconduct. They compare it with their own teaching styles. Graham admits to being more conflict-avoidant, often granting students leniency to avoid disputes, while A.J. maintains a stricter stance, holding firm on rules to instill integrity.

Notable Quotes:

• Graham Donaldson [09:56]: "I'm much more of a conflict avoidance person."
• A.J. Hananberg [07:59]: "Ask a lot of questions, avoid blame, often point out that they know the thing that they should do and just aren't unwilling to do it right."

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5. Handling Student Behavior and Integrity

The conversation delves deeper into the ethical responsibilities of teachers in shaping student behavior. They discuss the importance of addressing loopholes not just as rule violations but as opportunities to teach broader lessons about honesty, integrity, and personal responsibility.

Notable Quotes:

• A.J. Hananberg [12:14]: "You're still going to fail."
• Graham Donaldson [12:14]: "You're still going to fail. And so, like, okay, fine, give it to me after lunch."

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6. Balancing Accountability and Support for Student Growth

The hosts acknowledge the delicate balance between enforcing rules and supporting students' personal growth. They emphasize the need to discern when students are genuinely in crisis and require support versus when they're attempting to manipulate situations for personal gain.

Notable Quotes:

• A.J. Hananberg [06:32]: "Yeah, it's a great moment of change. Right. So they become... vulnerable."
• Graham Donaldson [47:35]: "Integrity of character is revealed."

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7. Reflections on the Book's Themes and Educational Philosophy

Reflecting on Josh Gibbs' educational philosophy, the hosts appreciate his commitment to addressing underlying issues in student behavior. They resonate with his belief that direct confrontation can lead to meaningful personal growth, preventing long-term negative outcomes in students' lives.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Magby [59:58]: "Each of these conversations in the book is oriented to a love of the student."
• Graham Donaldson [62:22]: "I find the answer is no. No, you can't."

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8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode concludes, the hosts recap the key insights from Gibbs' book and their own experiences in education. They discuss the challenges of managing large student bodies while maintaining meaningful interactions with each student. The episode wraps up with an encouragement to listeners to explore Gibbs' work for a deeper understanding of effective classical education practices.

Notable Quotes:

• Thomas Magby [64:17]: "I pick the kids that need growth or are ready for it."
• A.J. Hananberg [57:39]: "I tend to be hard-nosed about most of this stuff and hold the rules."

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Key Takeaways

• Direct Confrontation vs. Flexibility: The episode highlights different teaching styles, with some educators favoring strict rule enforcement to teach integrity, while others opt for more flexible approaches to avoid conflict.

• Handling Loopholes: Addressing students who attempt to exploit loopholes requires a balance between enforcing rules and understanding underlying motivations.

• Student Growth: Direct conversations about misconduct can lead to significant personal growth, preventing long-term negative behaviors.

• Educational Philosophy: Josh Gibbs' philosophies emphasize the importance of integrity, personal responsibility, and the role of teachers in shaping students' moral character.

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For more insights and discussions on classical education, you can reach out to the hosts via email, Patreon, or Twitter.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Graham Donaldson [03:09]: "It's got a big, bushy beard."
• A.J. Hananberg [07:59]: "Ask a lot of questions, avoid blame..."
• Graham Donaldson [09:56]: "I'm much more of a conflict avoidance person."
• A.J. Hananberg [12:14]: "You're still going to fail."
• A.J. Hananberg [06:32]: "Yeah, it's a great moment of change. Right..."
• Thomas Magby [59:58]: "Each of these conversations in the book is oriented to a love of the student."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Episode 266: A Parley with Youth, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the discussions, insights, and educational philosophies explored by the hosts.

Transcript

[Graham Donaldson]

Foreign. Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know this is a podcast about classical works of literature, fiction, classical philosophy, art. Hey, maybe music. Why not?

[Thomas Magby]

Why haven't we. Why haven't we done music?

[A.J. Hananberg]

We don't have good guardrails on this show. It's just whatever we feel like it is.

[Thomas Magby]

Whatever.

[Graham Donaldson]

Because we don't know. Maybe we just don't know enough about it.

[Thomas Magby]

About music.

[Graham Donaldson]

I think AJ because clearly we're experts on everything else. Everything else.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, exactly. I think AJ Would do a great music episode.

[Graham Donaldson]

My name is Graham Donaldson and I'm joined by my fellow classicists, Thomas Magby.

[Thomas Magby]

Hi.

[Graham Donaldson]

And A.J. hananberg.

[A.J. Hananberg]

That's me.

[Thomas Magby]

Do I count as a classicist? Like, I don't. I don't even work at a classical school anymore.

[Graham Donaldson]

You did.

[A.J. Hananberg]

You're doing it right now.

[Graham Donaldson]

You're holding a book about a classic.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Classic.

[Graham Donaldson]

Your children are.

[Thomas Magby]

How dare you.

[Graham Donaldson]

Your children are being classically educated.

[Thomas Magby]

Is Charlotte Mason classical?

[Graham Donaldson]

I think. I think she's classical Adjacent.

[Thomas Magby]

Ooh. Someone at our church described Charlotte Mason as classical light.

[Graham Donaldson]

Awesome.

[Thomas Magby]

That's made me laugh quite a bit. I don't feel that way. Listener. Sorry. That's just a quote someone said. I thought it was funny. Yeah. Anyway, Charlotte Mason for them, but homeschooled for us. Home.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, that's.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, like, there's nothing more classical than like teaching your own kids at home.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's just like the basis of it. Actually, it would be more classical if you sent your kids to the center of town.

[Thomas Magby]

Thank you. Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

With money. And said, find a teacher. Yes.

[Thomas Magby]

Good.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Send them to find a tutor.

[Graham Donaldson]

Find a tutor.

[Thomas Magby]

Go to downtown Austin just with cash money. My 5 year old is.

[A.J. Hananberg]

There's some sofist out there.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's like, you know, they're gonna.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I'll make you a congressman for $20 a week.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're gonna be in some math.

[Thomas Magby]

The Sofists are the thing I'm most worried about from the situation. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. Incredible.

[Graham Donaldson]

With Pythagoras. And they're gonna, like, worship the number four or whatever.

[Thomas Magby]

Look, that I. I could say they had some stuff.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I gotta say, like, we're talking about.

[Thomas Magby]

The number four stuff.

[A.J. Hananberg]

That's true.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. I mean, like, you try to draw a triangle.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

For reals.

[Thomas Magby]

We gonna talk about this book? What are we gonna do today? What do you wanna do?

[A.J. Hananberg]

You're the guy in charge, man.

[Thomas Magby]

He's still introing, right?

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm still introing, so. No, I'm just kidding.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. We're here to talk about. So, yeah. Am I breaking. I'm doing this wrong. By talking about a recent release. I mean, literally, a modern. Oh. Which of you hates that phrase? Maybe both, probably.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I do.

[Thomas Magby]

You hate that phrase.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's probably A.J.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah. I don't know if I've ever taken a stand on it before, but I can't say I'm getting good vibes.

[Thomas Magby]

Good. No. We're here to talk about the newest book from Mr. Josh, a parlay with youth. So I guess our connection here for it being classical is that he is a classical educator, formerly with Veritas in Virginia. He's recently moved into starting this classical teaching institute at the Ambrose School. So. Up in Idaho.

[Graham Donaldson]

Also a high school. But he's doing it for teachers, right?

[Thomas Magby]

Correct. Yeah. So the point is to have teachers who would come there, learn from him, and then go back to their schools, as I understand it. And. Yeah. There you go. So that's Josh Gibbs. We've talked about his books before. I'm sure you all have read his works before. Any. What else on Josh Gibbs is important to know?

[Graham Donaldson]

It's got a big, bushy beard.

[Thomas Magby]

Big, bushy beard.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Got a good voice, too.

[Thomas Magby]

Does great voice. It was very good.

[Graham Donaldson]

Chocolate.

[Thomas Magby]

His voice is like chocolate. Is that okay?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Thank you.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I can see that.

[Thomas Magby]

Good. I think he does also teach online classes as well.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Rustic Bread.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's polarizing some people. He's polarizing some people really don't have a taste for what he. For the. For how he talks about things. Whenever we've read books of his at our school, there's been some pretty strong delineations between. This is wonderful. And I. I can see how this can apply in the classroom to. What am I supposed to do with this?

[Thomas Magby]

Have you all. So, I mean, we read Consul or On Being unlucky. His book or his book on the consolation. How to be Unlucky, his book on the consolation of philosophy at Veritas when I was working there. Have you all read other Gibbs for professional development?

[Graham Donaldson]

I've read something they will not forget.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah. Not.

[Graham Donaldson]

Not the school hasn't. I've read it.

[Thomas Magby]

You read that just yourself?

[A.J. Hananberg]

I think the school gave us like, a chapter from it to read.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe they also gave us the like. So you're sending your kid to a classical school?

[Thomas Magby]

The pamphlet. Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Which isn't bad.

[Thomas Magby]

It's good.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Pamphlet's pretty.

[Thomas Magby]

Pretty good. So, yeah, this is his newest book. So I guess just to say how it's structured. So again, the name a Parlay with youth. And it is a collection of 13 dialogues. So each of them is a back and forth between a student and Josh Gibbs and the teacher.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Are these real dialogues or are they.

[Thomas Magby]

He talks about this in the intro. They are not real in that it's not recorded word for word. But he would say that they are things he has talked about with students before. Like they are inspired by conversations that have actually happened.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

You're given a thoughtful look.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Well, I'm just trying to rage the screenshots he gave me so I actually can read.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm very helpful in that. I sent a bunch of screenshots of what we'll read later. So they don't come. Yeah, so they're not, again, not like a word for word conversation that's recorded. You know, there aren't podcast episodes you can go listen to. But I'm just, I'm curious about this. Yeah, he's trying to capture these impactful conversations on important topics with high schoolers. I'm curious, do you all have any conversations like that where you're like, you had a moment of real breakthrough, Had a moment where you kind of addressed some kind of important topic with a student? Do you have anything that come.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Oh, for sure.

[Thomas Magby]

I know you have what, you have your class time. But even just kind of the one on one conversations.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, it's often in moments of great crisis, the kid has done something terrible or something terrible has happened or they're dealing with some. You know, I get approached by kids who are going through really difficult times. And so those are often moments of breakthrough. But yeah, we've had them sometimes in class. I've seen small epiphanies, but like the real nitty gritty emotional life stuff for an individual student that happens in crisis.

[Graham Donaldson]

The. Yeah. Yes. The answer to the other is yes. But it's also, I will have post hoc students coming up and saying things like you said this offhanded thing in the middle of a lecture that I have thought about forever and you're like, oh, cool, awesome. Well, happy to help.

[Thomas Magby]

Is there any common. So Ajay, you are saying the commonality is that there's some time of crisis and then is it because the student is open to hearing things in those moments of crisis?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, it's a great moment of change. Right. So they become. They become vulnerable in that either they've made a great mistake that they need to recover for that they can't escape from. Right. They are laid bare and you can discuss it directly or they come because they know they're in trouble and they need help. And so advice rings truer because they know they can't handle it. There's all kinds of things that might contribute to this, but sometimes they just come in for dating advice and. And sometimes I hope. I hope that stuff lands.

[Thomas Magby]

But I'm curious if there's fascinating.

[Graham Donaldson]

No one's. I don't think I've ever had a conversation with student like that in 12 years.

[A.J. Hananberg]

No dating advice?

[Graham Donaldson]

Not really.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I had. I had them two or three times last year. Sometimes four girls will come in and be like, she's dating this boy and he's a mess. Can you tell her that it's bad? Or like, she's leading him on or. And I, you know, give a little bit of advice.

[Graham Donaldson]

Never, never happened to me. Maybe I give off a, like, don't talk to me vibe.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Maybe you give off a I'm not going to talk about your piddly dating relationships vibe.

[Thomas Magby]

That's.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, that's probably more it.

[Thomas Magby]

Because you would tell them to break up. I could see, like that just being your advice every single time, probably.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Or you'd say, seek Jesus, now get out of my classroom.

[Thomas Magby]

Is there anything just. In those conversations where you're talking about something, you're helping someone work through something, do you have any kind of, like, approach or way that you think about those conversations? Is there a tone that you take or anything that you're trying to accomplish in those. In those conversations? Anything common in your approach to situations where you're helping someone, A high schooler in particular?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Ask a lot of questions, avoid blame, often point out that they know the thing that they should do and just aren't unwilling to do it right. They're over complicating a simple situation. There are some situations that I will openly admit I'm unequal to and say, I do not know how to solve this for you. But often they know the right thing. They just don't want to. They just don't want to believe that it is the right thing.

[Thomas Magby]

And then do you tell them, yeah, that right thing? Like, it just becomes clear in the conversation.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And I'm saying, like, yeah, it might be you are leading him on because it feels good, but it's not going to feel good when he feels awful and you've broken his heart. So stop doing that.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Graham, any thoughts?

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, I think AJ Is right on that. No, I. In regards to tone, I mean, like.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, the reason I ask is that we're going to read one of these chapters. So one of these dialogues in a little bit. And I think you'll see this approach of. In line with, you know, we've covered many of Gibbs's books before. There's kind of a directness to the conversation of a student will raise a concern. The concern often kind of hides what's actually going on. And so Gibbs will be kind of trying to unveil the kind of something deeper, some sin that is probably surfaced through this conversation. And then instead of coddling that, instead of trying to kind of relate, like, instead of that kind of bridge building that maybe that sometimes you might see, it's really a more direct approach to those conversations and topics. I guess that's what I'm curious. Like, is that something you think about in these conversations?

[Graham Donaldson]

I am much more of a, like, conflict avoidance person in. Despite how, you know, cranky I'm on the podcast. I'm much more of a, like, conflict avoidant person that I am. Like, I saw like the, the thing. The thing we're gonna be reading about is a student turning in a paper late.

[Thomas Magby]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like, I'm much more, maybe to my own detriment, flexible. Where to buy the student's story that they tell me about X, Y and Z happened and I didn't print it. Can I give it to you at lunch? And I'm like, yeah, fine, give it to me at lunch. As long as I have it. Like, I don't, you know, because I maybe, you know, because I'm like, I don't want to have the conflict. I don't want to turn this into a, like, character building moment.

[Thomas Magby]

Really.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe I should.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

But. But it's mainly because, like, I just. And this is the, this is the bad thing sometimes this is like, I just don't want to deal with making you better right now. Just, like, give it to me later. And that's bad for me.

[A.J. Hananberg]

It's often I don't know how to. And this is something that's difficult and why I have to ask a lot of questions. It's really hard to discern when it's okay legitimately. This kid had it, they hadn't. Something went wrong that was out of their control that they could not do. They made every effort to get it on time and they just couldn't. So. Sure, give it to me. Or this kid is looking for an extra 10 minutes to type it up furiously on their computer and then we'll turn it in as soon as it's done late. Right. Like, it's hard for me to discern that. So I can ask questions and use. I often don't have time to discern that. And so I give leeway on some of those things.

[Graham Donaldson]

But. And I do it too, because in my mind, I can't even fathom typing up an assignment the day that it's due. Like, I always did my. Everything that was due. I was always done my paper in college, like a week before it was due. And so I just, I can't even fathom that there. That there's a need of a student to have like an extra half hour to finish this thing at lunch because the very thought of it has, like, never. I've never lived that reality. And so, like, I've never, like, in regards to that, like, I know Josh Gibbs sort of talks about, like, he tried all the tricks when he was a student. So he knows all the tricks.

[Thomas Magby]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Whereas, like, I've never tried the tricks because I never. Not because I was perfect, but because I just was. That was never. My personality was to try to get away with stuff. So I, I probably.

[A.J. Hananberg]

It just seemed like too much hassle.

[Graham Donaldson]

Probably pull the wool over my eyes all the time as a teacher because I don't realize what they're doing because I don't value the thing they're trying to get the extra half hour of writing time. Because in my mind, it's like that, really, that's like, you're going to cheat. You're going to like, cheat me out of an extra half an hour because you haven't done this thing. It's like, you're probably not going to create a better paper because of this.

[A.J. Hananberg]

You're still going to fail.

[Graham Donaldson]

You're still going to fail. And so, like, okay, fine, give it to me after lunch.

[A.J. Hananberg]

What, what this would feel like to me as a teacher is trying to force a crisis, force an illegitimate crisis. Right. To turn a late paper where the kid had, like, maybe they had practice the night before, they couldn't finish it, they forgot to put it in their bag, or they forgot to print it this morning. I could force this into a crisis moment, but I don't know that that, like, usually that seems to me to not ring as true with the kids. Like, they feel that it's a forced crisis. They're not ready for a crisis. They don't feel they've done anything wrong. So I can try to make them feel like they've done something wrong or I can wait for real crisis or give them things that will come up in their mind when they are actually in real crisis. So I Don't try to force it. Go ahead.

[Graham Donaldson]

I was just gonna say or. It's such a big pattern that at the point you say you actually are honest with the student, you say, I'm gonna hold the line on this one because you haven't been able to do this all semester. So now we're turning this into a thing, as opposed to all of a sudden, I'm gonna enforce the rules. It's now. No, no, you've. Like, this is now going to be a thing. This is now going to be an issue because you can't seem to get this properly. I'm now gonna treat this with the way that it ought to be done. Because you no longer get the leeway because you've been abusing it. Like, I. I have definitely said that kind of thing to a student before.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Like, if.

[Graham Donaldson]

But not just arbitrarily said, I'm enforcing the rules now, I've actually said, I've been giving you leeway. I'm not giving you leeway. This has to be in. Or. Now you're getting a zero because it's late. Because this happens every time. I've had that conversation.

[A.J. Hananberg]

For sure. At that point, it's like, it's a habit we're trying to fix. Right. Whereas I could turn a single instance into a crisis. But I don't think they could be receptive. They're often not. And they just feel scolded.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

That's fair. Yeah. I think there's something. I just find this refreshing in Gibbs writing of, like, this directness, this, like, clarity of thought. This. Yeah. This vision of truth and, like, wanting to identify that and call people to that. And in the example we'll go through, there's no backstory. Right. We don't have this context of whether this is the third time that this incident has happened. If this is the first time, if this is early in the school year, if this is April, right before the end of the school year. So there's kind of a filling in that will happen there. But, yeah, in Gibbs own words in the introduction, when I reflected on my youth, most of the. Some of the most important conversations I had with adults were brief, particular, and pointed. And then he gives a few examples from there. So it's not the conversation that makes you feel better or kind of accommodates whatever is difficult in his life, I guess, with the important caveat that it's him doing something wrong is how he's. It's when he was doing something wrong. Having an adult directly tell him, hey, do better yeah. Is what helped him.

[Graham Donaldson]

There is a conversation that I have with a certain kind of student whenever they come across and it's usually the student that is very witty and very funny and feels out the line of what's appropriate and inappropriate and is willing to make a fool or is willing to be a little inappropriate in class. I will often, after a day where the student hasn't been doing this, I will often pull that student and say like, hey, listen, you're funny, you're clever. You're a funny kid. You're a clever kid. You need to learn when you do that and you need to learn when not to do that because you have a power like that. Clever funniness is a really good thing to have in life, but it's gonna blow up in your face if you don't learn where that line is. I've had that multiple times with students conversations and I've had students come back to me years later and say like, I needed to hear that. And yeah, so we can. I can tell you who they were after when we're not.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I've had that same conversation with a kid. It wasn't. It wasn't the same. But I'm just trying to think of point in times when I've sat a kid down in the sort of forced to crisis. There was one where a kid insulted me twice during the day. Like he said that. I think he implied that I was stupid and then said my hair was greasy. It probably was. Anyway, I held him after and I said, you insulted me twice today. He's like, no. I was like, no, you did. You insulted me. It's okay. I'm 30. I think I was like 34 at the time. I said, I can handle the insults of a ninth grader. This isn't going to ruin my day. But I am afraid that what you are trying to do is make friends of those who are around you. You're funny, you're trying to get some social clout. But here's the thing. They will always wonder when that is going to be turned on them. Right. If your funniness is insulting people and making yourself seem better than them, I'm worried that you will eventually find yourself alone because no one wants to spend time with that person. That is my concern.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or the only friends you'll have are the people who don't want to be insulted by you. So they cozy up to you.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Exactly.

[Graham Donaldson]

And those are not good friends or.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Other people whose only like comedic bone is to insult.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I was like, you will find Yourself alone. And that is the outcome of this course of action. Gotta sort that out. Like, you make friends by being kind, not by making fun of other people. I sent them off and I saw a marked change.

[Graham Donaldson]

So those sorts. Yeah. So you can force those sorts of crisis moments. I maybe, maybe the takeaway as we talk about this is I find for the crisis moments, having them be in compliance to, like, the standards of turning in papers and their uniform only so helpful versus, like, these sort of softer interactions that AJ And I are talking about, like making fun of kids or the kind of conversations in class. I don't know. I don't know what I think.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I think that's true. I think when I try to force the issue because, like, you're being disobedient about your uniform, they feel scolded enough about that already. But if I talk about something that wasn't across the line, that's just something I notice in their behavior. It's usually better received.

[Graham Donaldson]

But maybe we should be more. We should use the uniform as the crucible of virtue.

[A.J. Hananberg]

But that's the thing is I don't know that the uniform is a virtue thing. Like, maybe obedience is, Obedience is. Sure.

[Thomas Magby]

But because that's the. Aren't most uniform violations people know what they should do and they don't do it?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yes. But also, kids forget or they're tall and their shirts come untucked. Like, that's always the risk is I, I, it could be circumstantial. It could just be a kid being a knucklehead.

[Graham Donaldson]

Boys don't. Boy uniform violations are. Because they don't realize it because they're doofuses and they're boys. And boys don't really, like, know they were running outside. And girl uniform violations are, they are doing it because of the perception that they want to give off because of their uniform. That's a gross overgeneralization. But, but nine times out of ten, a boy just, like, forgets his belt because he, like, doesn't remember that he has a waist. And a girl gets a uniform violation because she's rolling her skirt because. Up because she wants to have a shorter skirt or she is wanting to wear a piece of jewelry that's out of uniform because she really. Because it's, it's pretty and she wants to wear it. Right. Like, so, like, oftentimes just high school boys are just not very oblivious to, to. It's not, you know, I guess maybe as they get older, they want a cooler haircut or they want to like. But most of the time like the boy uniform violations are, they're just, you.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Forgot your shoes because you had football this morning and so you put Crocs in your bag and now they're wearing.

[Graham Donaldson]

Croc and they're just like, yeah, I'm just gonna take that. It's like, I can't handle life. They're just like, they just are oblivious.

[Thomas Magby]

And what's the discipline system now? It's not marks anymore.

[Graham Donaldson]

What's the lunch detention?

[Thomas Magby]

That's all just any uniform violation is lunch detention.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, I think we're supposed to go little leeway on shirt tucks. But I've seen so many kids abuse and just they get told by every teacher once a day, tuck in your shirt. And they never do. And then the next day they get the same thing. So I told all my freshmen this year, I'm going to tell my seniors too. I don't give leeway if I see you with an untucked shirt. It's a lunch detention. But if they catch me with one, I'll do 40 push ups.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, for real?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Has that happened yet?

[A.J. Hananberg]

No.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hananberg]

But I've, I gave in one day. I gave three freshmen tuck violations.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, lunch detention.

[Graham Donaldson]

So. Yeah, so. So those are different kinds of things. So one of them is like executive functioning. Functioning skills just happen later in boys. And uniform is like or never or nature or never. And the uniforms are just like a petri dish for executive functioning skills, you know, to show that they don't have them. And then, and then often for girls it's, it's that social awareness and they want to, they want to have the, the, you know, the posturing of what they want, how they want to look.

[Thomas Magby]

But I guess I'm just, it just seems like there's a distinction then of there are these kind of rules that are supposed to be followed that are kind of amoral almost. Right. They're just things that need to be done. Again, there used to be this metaphor of like breaking those rules. You get the equivalent of a speeding ticket, right. And you just get the consequence and you move on from it. As opposed to like high schoolers are also experiencing great growth over 9th through 12th grade of like moral formation. I guess you see those as kind of separate things, right? Like the, the thing that is growing, the person that is preparing them for adulthood and maturity. It's kind of separate from the work of compliance to the compliance to these rules or compliance to whatever you set in your classroom.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe we shouldn't see them as.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm just asking if That's.

[Graham Donaldson]

But, I mean. Yeah, okay.

[Thomas Magby]

And, like, that's just a. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing from what y'all are saying. And that's why I'll be curious what you think about. About this example as we go into it.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, I'm interested.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. So, yeah, I've already mentioned. So parlay with youth. 13 different dialogues between Josh Gibbs and the student on different topics. If you're thinking about topics that you'd want to correct in high schoolers or things that you see that are just off that. If you could correct this, you would. Are there any topics that come to mind? What are things that you see and notice as being off in general?

[Graham Donaldson]

For how loud they are?

[Thomas Magby]

You truly are a curmudgeon. That's incredible.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're very loud.

[Thomas Magby]

I mean, I used to be. My office used to be right next to AJ's, and he'd have to tell me to quiet down, like, I think every day.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I miss your boisterous laughter. I really do.

[Thomas Magby]

That was a long time ago. Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

So what the question is, what things do I see?

[Thomas Magby]

It's really the question of, like, you're gonna write a book like this. What are the. What are the kind of typical conversations you have? You mentioned dating. I don't know.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, I've had some dating ones.

[Thomas Magby]

What?

[A.J. Hananberg]

For me, a big one is the competitive, destructive instinct. In high school, they pick at each other, Right. Make someone else look stupid, make yourself look better in a way, at least in junior high, that's a way that they learn socialization. To be told that they smell bad. Right? They might actually smell bad, and they need to fix that. So getting told sometimes helps, but in high school, they just are horrible to each other. And at some point, they need to learn that when you get to college, doing that is going to lose you friends. Like that little piece, the. Oh, he's cool. He can make fun of everybody. Goes away almost instantly when you hit college. No one cares about that anymore. You're not impressing anybody. They will not hang out with you. So, like, real kindness, like, consideration of others, not trying to make yourself look better by making other people, you know, putting them down. That was just. I had a class last year that was doing that. It was. It was hard. Hard to see.

[Graham Donaldson]

You mean the people I have now.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Have you noticed it yet?

[Graham Donaldson]

Not really, no.

[A.J. Hananberg]

They might grow out of it.

[Graham Donaldson]

The thing is that the other thing is, like, you know, you get such. AJ always says these things, and then, like, I get them, and there's A summer of change. No, it's amazing. The growth that happens for. In four years. Like I'm. I can't think of.

[Thomas Magby]

I.

[Graham Donaldson]

Probably the only growth that I've had in four years is I've gotten fatter. The growth that's happened in like a high school from 9th to. From 9th to 12th is.

[A.J. Hananberg]

It's remarkable. I often.

[Graham Donaldson]

Incredible.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I often get groups that the people are like, they're horrible. Oh, it's the worst. Worst group I've ever had. And they come to my class and they're great. They're great little people. It feels like that's happening this year. I got warnings and I'm just like, these. These kids are fun. I have no problems here. They're not mean to each other. They just kind of have too much energy, which is not weird in ninth grade.

[Thomas Magby]

That's absolutely true. Yeah. So just the series of topics. He has one on friendship and family, kind of this over importance that he sees in high schoolers.

[Graham Donaldson]

Friends are more important than family.

[Thomas Magby]

Friends are more important than family, which he will. I think it's the longest of the dialogues is that one. He has one on video games and how that's like a habit to turn away from as you.

[Graham Donaldson]

They love music.

[Thomas Magby]

Kind of in the same vein, there being a chapter on disagreeing with your church. This kind of, you know, people who are kind of picking and choosing individual theological positions instead of learning to submit to or be a part of a collective, be a part of a church.

[Graham Donaldson]

Very funny. Considering him grow Baptist, become Eastern Orthodox.

[Thomas Magby]

But he switched churches as opposed to. In this dialogue, it's someone who's like, I think they go to a Baptist church and become convinced of infant baptism. And so it's like, I'm going to go to my church but hold this one view that's like different from everyone else.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, so they should go to a different church.

[Thomas Magby]

And either that or for as long as you're like in your household, commit to the church that your parents are a part of. Kind of listen to that teaching. A conversation about someone who wants to go to leave private school and go to public school because of like, how it's going to challenge this person's faith and help them grow in their faith. So, yeah, a number of different conversations. They're all great. I'm going to go for one of these shorter ones just so we can read it here. This one is titled On Loopholes. So you all just have a bunch of screenshots which hopefully you'll be able to read from in Nuts. I have my copy here. I feel like Gibbs has to be Graham. No, the kind of rambunctious.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Oh, I thought I would be Marcus.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. The rambunctious student is absolutely aj Do.

[Graham Donaldson]

I have to do the voice?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Although Donaldson does a pretty good high school derp kid voice.

[Thomas Magby]

I mean, I could be convinced either way. Do you. Do you want to be Bushy Beard Gibbs? Like, is that.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, let me be Gibbs.

[Thomas Magby]

Awesome.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Graham, be the kid. Is that right?

[Thomas Magby]

Kid's name is Marcus.

[Graham Donaldson]

Marcus.

[Thomas Magby]

His name is Marcus. And then the teacher's name is Gibbs. And we'll probably stop throughout this and talk about it.

[Graham Donaldson]

You pause this when you need to be happy to.

[Thomas Magby]

Let's go for it.

[Graham Donaldson]

All right, so we're starting off.

[Thomas Magby]

Go for it.

[Graham Donaldson]

So I'm the student.

[Thomas Magby]

Dialogue 12 on loopholes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Why'd you count my paper late?

[Thomas Magby]

It's incredible. I'm so excited.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I told you it was good.

[Thomas Magby]

So happy.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Pretty good. The paper was due on Friday and you turned it in on Monday.

[Graham Donaldson]

But I wasn't in class on Friday.

[A.J. Hananberg]

You weren't in my class on Friday, which was the first class of the day. However, you came to school later in the day.

[Graham Donaldson]

How do you know that?

[A.J. Hananberg]

I saw you around school.

[Graham Donaldson]

But. But I wasn't at school during first period, which is when your class meets, so I wasn't present to turn in my paper.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Did you have a paper to turn in on Friday?

[Graham Donaldson]

Hold on. No.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Which is why you didn't bring me the paper on Friday when you arrived late.

[Graham Donaldson]

But if I wasn't in your class to turn it in, why isn't marked late?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Because you skipped my class Friday morning just so you wouldn't have a.

[Thomas Magby]

You.

[A.J. Hananberg]

You would have a plausible sounding excuse for turning it in Monday.

[Graham Donaldson]

That seems like a legitimate reason to me. Why are you calling it a plausible sounding excuse?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Skipping class to get a few extra days to work on an assignment is not the kind of plan you would present to a teacher prior to the fact, is it?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, but so what?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Why would you not present that plan to a teacher prior to the fact?

[Graham Donaldson]

Teacher might not like it.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Why?

[Graham Donaldson]

Because teachers have to say I want you in class even when it's not true.

[A.J. Hananberg]

That's true.

[Thomas Magby]

Let's pause there. So just to start on the setup for this. Is this something that you've experienced before? Someone who skips your class because they have a deadline? They're actually at school later in the day. Thesis had this.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Probably. Thesis happens. Kids skip for thesis a lot. But they didn't skip my class. They skipped everybody else's class.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. I mean, you would have kids. You would have those instances where, like, something was due and you see the kid later in the day.

[Thomas Magby]

Yep.

[Graham Donaldson]

And. But at that point, like, there's either we have. So there's. There's excused absences and unexcused absences. So if like, the kid had called in and was like, doctor's appointment or whatever, and mom signs off on it, like, okay, nothing I can do about it. If a kid is skipping. Skipping class is like, a bigger penalty than just getting their paper marked late because can't you.

[Thomas Magby]

Not an unexcused absence. You can't make up the work.

[Graham Donaldson]

Correct.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Exactly.

[Graham Donaldson]

So an unexcusable.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Can't just skip.

[Graham Donaldson]

So let's just skip. An unexcused absence here is like, they are not turning in that paper at all.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And they're getting a zero on it. Doesn't matter how late it is.

[Thomas Magby]

And this will. This is later in the dialogue, but this is a situation where the parent is actually on board.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

The parent has agreed to their absence.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Gibbs will question their reasoning. They're like, yeah, the reasoning for it. But let's say, you know, parents pick when doctor's appointments are scheduled, and they happen to pick when this deadline was. Kid shows up to school later in the day and doesn't give you your assignment.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

If that's an excused absence, you think there's no.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Like, I wouldn't do anything about it because we're a parent partnership school. At that point, I'm going to trust the parent that they knew what they were doing for their kid. If it's a repeated thing, I might reach out to the parent and say, hey, what's going on here? But 99.9% of the time, I consider myself subordinate to a real parent. So if they want to let their kids sign their name on a form. Sure. If they want to organize, let their kids skip because they've put in a doctor's order. That's false. That's not a fight. I want to fight where I'm fighting both the parent and the kid. I'm not going to win that.

[Thomas Magby]

You wouldn't call the parent about that?

[A.J. Hananberg]

No.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Partially because they're the one that lives with that kid. They're the ones that knows the struggles. I don't. I see them max three hours a week. So I'm. Maybe that kid has some sort of horrible depression, just lost their dog. Who know. I don't know what's going on. So at that point I would defer to the parent.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. Graham, would you.

[Graham Donaldson]

Same thing. Oh yeah. I, I defer to the. If the parent. If the kid has gotten to the point where they're helping the. They need the parent to help them collude in order to miss my class to get an assignment done. Like that seems like a bigger need. Like that seems like something that was needed. Like if you're going to go to mom and dad to get them to.

[Thomas Magby]

Be like you believe you side with the student at that point of they actually did need to skip class and get extra time on your assignment.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess. I mean, if they're, if they're bringing it up to they're getting mom and dad to. Or getting mom to book the, the doctor's appointment on this, there's probably something going on.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I don't know.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

If it's a test, I mean they need to take the, like they have to take the test outside of class time on their own. That sucks. So, I don't know. I. Again, it's like.

[Thomas Magby]

I think we're giving a little, so we might be adding a more maybe too fair to the student. Again, there's more. Maybe we should read further.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Sure.

[Thomas Magby]

Because there is that. There's both. My first question is kind of off the bat. Is this something you would respond to or push back on? The answer is no as of right now. So we'll see if that changes as we go.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Unless this was like a repeated pattern.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, yeah. A one time thing, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Thomas Magby]

In the moment that just occurred, the student says teachers have to say I want you in class even when it's not true. Gibbs agrees that's true. Which will be something the student will come back to. So like, teachers have to be polite to their students is what the point being? Yes. So that's true.

[A.J. Hananberg]

But is that the only reason?

[Graham Donaldson]

Did you just admit that teachers have to say that even when it isn't true?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yes. Are there any other reasons the teacher might not want students skipping class to get extra time on an assignment?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know. I'm still too blown away that you admitted teachers have to say I want you in class when it's not true.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Are basic good manners really so mind blowing?

[Graham Donaldson]

How is it good manners to say I want you in class even when it's not true? That's not good manners. It's a lie.

[A.J. Hananberg]

If a certain student hates class and does not veil his contempt for class, but actively tries to derail lectures, mocks the comments of fellow students and insults the teacher after class. It is hardly surprising a teacher would breathe a sigh of relief when that student was out of class. At the same time, teachers are a good bit like judges, police officers, or priests in that they are custodians of public trust. Because such profound responsibility rusts on teachers, they are not free to do and say whatever they like, but must submerge certain personal opinions they hold beneath the high calling of their public Persona. When a teacher says, I want you in class, he is speaking from his public Persona. It is no more alive than an officer's badge or a judge's robes. That sounds like I am not in agreement with.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm going to ask. Yeah, What?

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm in total agreement with that.

[Thomas Magby]

Can you say more?

[Graham Donaldson]

Whoa.

[A.J. Hananberg]

All right. Disagreement. Let's get into it.

[Thomas Magby]

Thank you.

[Graham Donaldson]

Finally, the idea that the teacher holds a public Persona and that their own personal views on certain things. Totally. And this is. I mean, I. I don't care. I. Yes, I. When it comes to the rules of the school, I've come to the point where it's like, I don't care if the rules are right or wrong. If it's the school that if they've asked me to do the rule, I'm going to do it. I definitely think that, like, a teacher has to uphold a Persona of. Of society that. And that in many ways their own public, Their own personal beliefs about, like, a student or whatever doesn't play into it. Yeah, totally.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I'm in agreement. Agreement with that. But. But will turn my car around when it gets close to a lie. So.

[Thomas Magby]

Yes, you would not tell. So if you have a student who's actively disruptive, you would not tell them that you want them in class?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Well, the truth is, I do want them in class. I don't enjoy having them in class. But do I want them to be there to improve, to grow, to change? For sure, yes. So when I say, I want you in class, that is a truth. If I don't want you in class, I will say, you are not allowed to come to this class until you prove to me that you can be here. I would actually take positions.

[Graham Donaldson]

So as far as someone says, Mr. Donaldson, do you enjoy having me in class? And I don't. I'm not gonna lie. But if they say, do you? Yeah, I agree with you.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I would mild it down. I would say, sometimes it is difficult because you decide to derail the class. Yeah, yeah, that's what I would say.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or I would often say I don't enjoy when you do X, Y and Z, as opposed to, I don't enjoy you. I don't enjoy this certain behavior that you do. Yes, that.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And as far as having public Persona. Yeah, I will. My. My public opinion about some school policy is that I will uphold the school policy. And if a kid asks, how do you feel about this rule? I will say, it is the school policy. We are going to follow it. This is my job. And typically I agree. And so I'll even be like, look, I'll help explain it to you. It's probably a good policy. So where I can I add personal opinion if it helps? If I cannot, I keep that opinion to myself. My kids don't know what political party I am. They don't know where I stand on certain complex theological issues. But as far as lying goes, I will never. Like, that is. That is a line I don't cross. Right. I believe I can uphold that. That public Persona. That is. That is paramount without resorting to a lie. I don't agree with this paragraph.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, You. You would mean the. I want you in class in a different way than I enjoy having you in class. Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

No, I mean, I. The truth is, I do want them in class.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I don't. They drive me crazy, but I want them there.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, but you would also. Have you told a student before that, like, them being in class is worse for your.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, okay. Because at that point, that's a thing that they need to hear. If they make my life miserable for everyone, I'm not going to tell them they, I have a blast when they're in there. I will say you. Sometimes it's hard. You talk a lot during class. That's difficult. But I do want you here because I believe in you and I want you to grow is what I would tell the kid.

[Thomas Magby]

All right, let's keep going. Marcus. That sounds like an excuse for telling a lie.

[Graham Donaldson]

That sounds like an excuse for telling a lie.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Does to me, too. Given how little respect you have for the public Persona of the student, that's not surprising.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't believe in the public Persona of the students.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Of course, very few people do, which is why we no longer dress up for church. Why we conduct wedding services wherever we like. Why you don't call me sir, why I don't call my boss sir, why dinner guests no longer wait for the lady of the house to take the first bite of her meal before beginning themselves. We've been taught to believe that the level of mess, entropy, and informality which comes naturally is honest and Therefore, virtuous, although none of it has made the world a nicer place to live. You would enjoy class more if you believed in the public Persona, though your classmates would respect you more as well.

[Graham Donaldson]

How do you know my classmates don't respect me?

[A.J. Hananberg]

It was your classmates who told me you were skipping my class on Friday morning as an excuse for turning your paper in on Monday.

[Graham Donaldson]

Again, how is this an excuse? Why isn't it a legitimate reason as.

[A.J. Hananberg]

A strategy for getting a few extra days to work on the assignment? There's an appearance of legality to what you did, but that's not the kind of thing you can be proud of, not the kind of thing you could do openly. Rather, it's the kind of thing you were hoping would not be discovered. The kind of thing you know you cannot get away with twice. In other words, it's a loophole.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm not ashamed of what I did.

[A.J. Hananberg]

That is somewhat true. You told your classmates about it, but not me. Not me.

[Thomas Magby]

But not me.

[A.J. Hananberg]

But not me. Your goal was to look smarter than me, to shame me, and to insult the diligence of your classmates who got their papers turned in on time.

[Graham Donaldson]

What if my goal was just to get a few extra days to work on the assignment?

[A.J. Hananberg]

You would have not told your classmates about it.

[Graham Donaldson]

What if I told my classmates just so they could see how much I cared about doing a good job?

[A.J. Hananberg]

At this point in the school year, I have no reason to believe that's true.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, you can't prove that.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And you can't prove your righteous motives either.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, so just to pause there. So there is a little more going on than just the person has skipped and this conversation is happening. There's also this kind of, like, bragging. Right. The student has then bragged to other classmates.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Sure.

[Thomas Magby]

And then those students have come to. To the teacher and said, hey, this is what happened. Does that change anything of how you would view the situation?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yep.

[Thomas Magby]

Would you approach it differently if you have testimony of, like, if students are coming forward to say, this person's bragging about it?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yep.

[Thomas Magby]

Can you say more about what you would do?

[A.J. Hananberg]

You want to feel this one or should I?

[Graham Donaldson]

You go for it.

[Thomas Magby]

Hopefully both. Right?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I mean, okay, first thing I would do is run it up the chain, check with the higher ups and say, hey, I got a kid who's doing this. This is the kind of action I'm thinking about taking. What do you think? I would also check in with the kid if he told his friends that he was going to do this. I Would this is one of those things where it's a. I can ask, you know, pull the Socrates, ask questions. He knows he's being foolish. I this little thing flips to, to lecturing pretty quick. I think mine would be more questions, why did you do that? Why did you think that was okay and let them sort of discover it on their own. Often that's to me more like has been more effective for me. But eventually there would be something like what this is, which is saying this is what's going on in your heart right now. You wanted to make me look silly. This is the kind of thing that I would feel would be a good crisis for a kid to go through.

[Thomas Magby]

You would push this.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, he bragged, I found out and now he has to stand on top of that action and I don't think he can. And so that's the kind of thing that would be a good growing moment. Okay, sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

You say yeah, I mean something comparable to that asking. I would ask also ask lots of questions. I mean I would probably. If they were bragging that they were getting extra time to do the assignment and I would point out hopefully the assignment was like finished and graded by then and hopefully I can point out that like you did not even spend your extra time to do better on this assignment.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Because in this case it's already happened that the assignment was marked late. Right. So this might be the Monday after and the student is coming or it could be after that.

[Graham Donaldson]

So the thing is like, yeah, this.

[Thomas Magby]

Isn'T the day of the skipping in case that matters.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. This is after the fact bragging. I don't think I've ever had students come up to me and say sort of open heartedly someone has been bragging about that they can pull one over on you because they don't like I have. I don't think that's ever happened. Someone said, maybe I'm just naive but I've never had a student come and tell me this sort of thing. I've had students sort of, yeah, I don't think I've ever had a student come.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And for me it's not always classwork. I was leading a Europe trip once and I had one kid come up and say, hey, this particular other student has been stealing from every town they've been in. They've been bragging about it. So I had to confront that kid. So I've had that happen.

[Graham Donaldson]

Stealing from every town.

[Thomas Magby]

Geez Louise, terrible. Yep. Okay then let's get back to it. Marcus. I don't have to Though.

[Graham Donaldson]

So Gibbs just said you can't prove your righteous motives.

[Thomas Magby]

Correct. So, yeah, Marcus might have just won. Wanted these extra few days. The problem being. Then why did you talk about it?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Right, hold on. Where there's legitimate reasons. So much you can't prove that you can't prove your righteous motives either. Is that where we're at?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. So Marcus will go. I don't have to.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't have to, though. The whole argument concerns a matter of the heart. A matter of conscience. You don't know for certain what's in my heart. Which means you don't have to believe me when I.

[Thomas Magby]

Which means you have to.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, sorry. Which means you have to believe me when I say I had the best of intentions in skipping your class on Friday.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Fascinating.

[Thomas Magby]

Please go on, Marcus. Christians have.

[Graham Donaldson]

Christians have to take people at their word. Give to the one who asks you, as Jesus says.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Well, we've reached a place in this conversation where I might say something like this. So do you have to give me everything I ask of you as well? And I might try to get you to reason from your own inane premise and gradually defeat your argument, but I've taught a few loophole artists before and I'm simply not up for debating you now. Not even you believe what you're saying. Which means that no amount of logic in the world is actually going to shut you down. Suffice it to say, there are enough verses in the Bible about grace, mercy, charity, forgiveness and good intentions to keep a small minded man condemning the world for the rest of his life.

[Graham Donaldson]

What's that supposed to mean?

[A.J. Hananberg]

It means my obligation here is now. Sorry? My obligation is here and now to be useful to you. To do you some good. And debating you any further on the Christian philosophy of conscience wouldn't help you at all. It would make you twice as dangerous to yourself as you already are. There are times when taking a man seriously means not taking his argument seriously. This is one of those times.

[Graham Donaldson]

So you're simply not going to give me an answer?

[A.J. Hananberg]

The world is a difficult place to live. Most people live with a staggering number of regrets, secrets and fears of getting caught or found out. For this reason, real confidence is a genuinely rare thing. It is so rare, in fact, that one rarely finds two people with real confidence in the same room at the same time. Confidence can be used to help others. However, it can also be used to exploit others. Of course, people not only live with regrets and secrets in our day and age, they also live in a state of perpetual distraction and with a standing list of 50 things they need to do, only 20 of which they can remember at any given time. They forget deadlines. They don't read closely. In such an environment, loopholes proliferate.

[Thomas Magby]

So just to pause. So kind of you could imagine this turning into a 30 page back and forth of trying to dismantle the argument. And Gibbs's approach here is to just sidestep the whole thing and say you're not, you're not arguing from honest terms.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. Then I, I agree with that totally.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Is.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is like you do not get into a. Like when. Yeah. When. When the student is clearly not themselves coming out. Like if they earnestly and honestly were.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Were confused.

[Graham Donaldson]

Confused then sure. But when they are like giving you a Bible verse about giving you mercy. What about mercy? Like they're not. Yes. Gibbs is right on. What is spot on when he says there's enough verses in the Bible about mercy and justice to have to give a loophole artist everything he needs in order to like be confident that what he's doing is fine. Yeah. Totally agree with that.

[Thomas Magby]

And the.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Nothing I say is going to help you and nothing. I said we could do this till I'm blue in the face and you wouldn't come any nearer to actually believing the right thing.

[Thomas Magby]

Do you see people take that approach like teachers or parents or.

[Graham Donaldson]

I do.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Oh yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

That they just ignore. Essentially shut down the argument.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. And say this is the. We're not, we're not arguing about like this is not a.

[A.J. Hananberg]

You don't actually believe this.

[Graham Donaldson]

This isn't a logical premise. Yes. You don't actually believe.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah. And also in my experience, ninth graders aren't the best even finding loopholes. So I'm like, look, that's the. Your argument isn't even good. So I'm not even. What you want to do is get away with this thing. So yeah. I aim at the motives.

[Thomas Magby]

Do they agree to that? Like will they kind of give up the facade or.

[Graham Donaldson]

Because they're not. Because they're not really. They're. They're hoping that some sort of appeal to us to like a limp wristed Bible verse is going to kind of get them through it.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

And when you sort of like dismiss it, they're not going to double down on it because they're not going to win if they double down. You know, like it's not. That's not the thing they were hoping to survive off of.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah. The moment you sort of sidestep and say I know exactly what you're doing, it sort of Loses.

[Graham Donaldson]

And you say you don't. You don't even believe this. So I'm not going to take you. Your argument about, you know, charity. Seriously?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah, totally.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, good. Let's keep it going then. So then we're going to get to Marcus. What exactly do you think a loophole is?

[Graham Donaldson]

What exactly do you think a loophole is?

[A.J. Hananberg]

A loophole is simply a confident person using the ambiguity of the English language to exploit a person who lacks confidence. Most people spend their days in the company of people who they trust, like family members, friends, co workers, peers, fellow parishioners. In other words, people will not try to trick them. Under such conditions, it is easy to forget just how ambiguous many words, phrases and symbols actually are. When we live with others, we come to define words the same way, interpret phrases the same way, read symbols the same way. All of this happens organically, accidentally and invisibly. Because so much of what happens in a certain community is never formally codified and explained, it is easy to surprise others by suddenly taking advantage of how much the community assumes about itself that surprise is a loophole. Loopholes are never part of a long game, though. They only work on short terms.

[Graham Donaldson]

Why is that?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Because people who look for loopholes can't be trusted. You can only burn someone with a loophole once or twice, then they give up on you.

[Graham Donaldson]

Isn't it your responsibility to close off loopholes? Doesn't the existence of loopholes prove that you haven't articulated the rules clearly enough?

[A.J. Hananberg]

No. Wherever you find words, you find loopholes. Loopholes merely prove that anything can be cut in half, including a sentence. Some loopholes are bigger than others, but no law code written by human beings can account for every contingency, every possibility, every technicality. Language works because of shared definitions, shared experiences, and a shared desire to understand them. As someone who talks for a living, I'm keenly aware of the fact that just about anything can be misunderstood and misinterpreted willfully or unwillfully. It is the nature of language to limit and to truncate. Given the expansive nature of human ego, language will always be potentially, potentially, plausibly and arguably offensive. Speaking is always undertaken as an act of faith, which assumes the goodwill of the one listening. But such goodwill can always be exploited.

[Thomas Magby]

Do you buy this?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. Yeah, I don't know if it's as strong as Yes, I buy it where he says that. Yes, you like. We're never going to tie up every single loophole. And. And if you and people can willfully play loopholes and I think it's actually quite good to point out to a student that it's like you can get away with things in loopholes every now and then, but you'll just be sucked. You'll just become someone that nobody trusts. And so, you know, one takes seriously or no one takes seriously. So my line is always like, you might get away with it, but you never get away with getting away with it. Which is probably even a line that I stole from, probably from him. But there's a certain truth to that. And at some point, like, integrity of character is revealed. And so, so with that, that the, the phrase that maybe is a little convicting to me is when he says loopholes are the things that people can get away with with other people who lack confidence.

[Thomas Magby]

Exactly.

[Graham Donaldson]

Because I think to my, like, there's always part of me that's like, I just don't want to get into the conflict with this.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

And I'm willing to accept the, you know, the paper that's turned in at lunchtime because they haven't printed it before class because it's a five minute passing period day and they don't. And they don't have time and they got here late. You know, like all those compounding. Compounding excuses. Like I'm. Yeah. So maybe that's. Maybe that's. I don't know.

[Thomas Magby]

But what are things where you hold the line, like, you must have things you care about that.

[Graham Donaldson]

There are things that I care about for sure.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I. I hit a kid on. Was it like I hit this situation with a kid.

[Thomas Magby]

I heard I hit a kid also.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I did say I hit a kid. Pretty rough.

[Thomas Magby]

Let's print it. Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Take it out of context.

[Thomas Magby]

We're literally recording, I don't know, an.

[Graham Donaldson]

Age you can hit all the kids.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, my gosh. Anyway, this occurred.

[A.J. Hananberg]

A kid was in the senior room and he had his shoes off and was putting his feet all over everything. And I went and I said, put your dogs away. Kennel those pups. And he said, well, it's not zoom.

[Thomas Magby]

The rules.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And I was like, you are out of uniform. It's not. You are not wearing the appropriate shoes. Put your feet on or put your shoes. Put your feet on. I'm sorry, I'm tired. Anyway, yeah, like, he tried to pull a loophole. And the kids were even asking. I was like, we don't have that. You have to wear a shirt in the uniform, but you have to be wearing a shirt. And one kid was like, what if I'm. But they're really far like that kind of thing. Just Thursday this happened.

[Thomas Magby]

Yep.

[Graham Donaldson]

I. I guess like. Yes. The lines that I hold are. Are those lines of, you know, that. That kind of like manners into cormorant. Like. Yeah. When someone's starting to do the. Yeah. What about if I like open my shirt real, real low? Like when they're. You. You don't want to play that game of like, parsing out what the point.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Where the line, oh, I just said go bananas.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

It's like it seems fine to me.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Or like all of it's a violation. Like all of it's wrong.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, but I mean, like in like. Yeah. Just the way you talk to others. I. I guess some of the things that I really like that I don't abide is people giving up on intellectually hard things. Like I just. It just. I don't know.

[Thomas Magby]

That's more a disappointment though, right? Like that they could push themselves. Alright, then let's keep. Let's keep it moving.

[Graham Donaldson]

Alright. So where are we?

[A.J. Hananberg]

I didn't do anything.

[Graham Donaldson]

I didn't do anything. Technically prohibited.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Is this really how you want the student teacher relationship to work? Buyer beware. Watch your back. Should have checked the fine print.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's not unfair.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And when you someday marry, do you intend on being technically faithful to your wife? If you asked your wife if she had been faithful to you, would you be comforted if she answered technically yes?

[Graham Donaldson]

You tend to liken everything to marriage.

[A.J. Hananberg]

When you marry, you'll make a number of promises and vows to your wife. Do you want to be the kind of man who seeks loopholes for those promises? Do you want your wife to seek loopholes in the legal obligations she has to you? Do you want to be the kind of father who looks for loopholes in your legal obligations to your daughter?

[Graham Donaldson]

Why would I do that, though?

[A.J. Hananberg]

For the same reason you skipped class Friday morning. To get something you wanted which couldn't be acquired openly and honestly. Looking for loopholes becomes a kind of sick logic which drives men to loneliness, self justification and the cultivation of secret lives which they find more pleasurable than their roles as fathers and husbands.

[Graham Donaldson]

All that just for skipping class on Friday? Doesn't that seem like an overreaction?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Where do you think unhappy adults come from? You don't think miserable adults come from nowhere, do you? Takes a long time to make a truly miserable adult. You've got to start young. Of course, that also means you've got a long time to prevent adults from becoming miserable. Which is what I am trying to do. When I look at Someone like you. I have to ask myself what you'll be like in 10 years from now if you have the same warped sense of justice, the same lack of self awareness, but more time, money, trust and power on your hands.

[Thomas Magby]

So what do you think? Who has the better of the argument right now? Marcus on the. This is an overreaction. Gibbs to the. This leads to a path of a miserable life.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean Gibbs is right in saying that, you know any. Yeah. Any sort of. He's right in saying that if you continue to do this, you will be the kind of person who does this. And the kind of person who does this is going to. Is it's going to end up unhappy for you. And again, this is where like you need to understand the student that you're talking to. Like any teacher can have six students off the top of their head that they're like, yeah, that person, if they keep going on this path is going to be miserable. And then six students at the top of their head, they're like, well, if that student came in, if that student like asked their parents to skip class so they can extra. Have extra paper, like I'm fine with that because I know who that. That student is on a regular basis. And they're not. Not that kind of kid. Which may sound really unfair, but I mean like just like in the rest of life people build up goodwill or they build up. Or, or they are untrustworthy. And so, and I know, I don't think. But it's just, it's just true. There are students that you are. We will. You know, when they are getting, when they, when they have done something, they must have a better reason. They must have a good reason for it. And there are students that are just like trying to get away with everything all the time. Is that, is that unfair to say?

[A.J. Hananberg]

AJ yeah. There's. Students are always trying to get away with stuff. Yeah, sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

And. And then there. So there does come to be at some point where you have to say things like if you keep going this way like that. I love that line of like you don't want somebody to say do you love me? Technically, yes. Or do. Are you faithful to me? Well, technically or. What do you mean by faithful? Yeah, like, you know, cuz like. Yeah. So then at that point it is. It is that heart thing. But yeah. So Gibbs is right in that I think I agree.

[Thomas Magby]

You do?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Oh yeah, totally.

[Thomas Magby]

You don't see this as an overreaction or kind of coming down too hard on. On this.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Well, this far into the conversation, the kids clearly being a twerp.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And so telling the kid, look, you.

[Thomas Magby]

Keep doing this, kids like dugging their heels, right?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

They, they haven't like come clean and been like, you're right, I shouldn't have done it. I'm so sorry. Please.

[A.J. Hananberg]

And most of the kids, when you sort of catch them in that business, like catch them in the. You're not arguing on honest terms. That would be the turning point. But this kid has dug their heels so far in that at this point, this would be a. You keep going this way, you keep not listening to anybody and doing this stuff, you're going to end up in a bad place.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

You kind of want, I mean, it's a double edged sword. Like you want to say to a kid, if you need, if you have legitimate reasons why you would need extra, like, come talk to me. But that does take up a lot of time because you need to make sure that you make the right decision when the student comes talk to you and say, is it like, are they in this position? Because they're on like stupidity and laziness at that point, you kind of need to hold the line. But if they legitimately, like are, you know, need the extra time and you can give it to them, then you do it. But you can't. But if you have that as your policy, then all of a sudden you have 40 kids coming to talk to you. Well, actually it's not true because you have most. Most of the kids are just like.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Most kids just do it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Most just kids just do it.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah. You hope you have enough trust with the students that if they're in trouble, they come talk to you. That, that's usually what I, what I.

[Graham Donaldson]

Tend to say is, is try not to just have it be like an isolated incident. I will say things like, for this assignment, we're like, it sounds like you need the extra time and you've gotten yourself into a place where you're coming to me and asking for extra time. You have to get your stuff together for your next assignment.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Because life's gonna like this. This keeps coming. Until we graduate in May, I would teach seniors like, this is gonna keep coming. And like, you can't just limp through everything. Like, at some point I will, you know, you, you have to say, like, pull it together, man. If you're falling apart.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Okay, let's get toward the end of this. We're almost there. Yep. So 220 starts at the top with Marcus. Look, can't you just.

[Graham Donaldson]

Can't you just let me go with a warning? Can't you just like, tell me not to skip class on Fridays again? Why does my paper have to be marked late?

[A.J. Hananberg]

If a late, great late grade on a late paper seems too high a price to pay for such a lesson, I doubt a warning will really sing the message home.

[Graham Donaldson]

What do you get out of grading my work lower?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Nothing. Less than nothing. The fact your parents approved your plan of skipping class on Friday morning means they'll want to schedule a meeting with me. After they see your late grade. They'll offer the same excuses and accusations you did. I'll have to explain myself again. It'll cost an hour of my time, if not more. I will lose sleep about it as well. Because with each passing year, I get a little closer to telling people like your parents the unvarnished truth about the kind of person they're raising you to be. Although I've not quite crossed that threshold yet. In other words, it would be easier now to let you off the hook, but it would be harder in the long run.

[Graham Donaldson]

How would it be harder in the long run if I let you off the hook?

[A.J. Hananberg]

You'll tell all your classmates your plan worked, which would breed contempt in their hearts, not only for me, but for the school. That sort of contempt would prompt them to look for loopholes as well. But if I call you out on your foolishness, the students you brag to about your plan will see that loopholes don't work. They won't come to class skeptical of the lessons I teach, discouraged by the fact that their bumbling, full witted teacher was outwitted by a student. They won't think of their teachers as people they must outwit. All of which means they are more respectful in class and more receptive to what I teach them. Besides, if I call you out on your sin, I win a little more respect from you as well.

[Graham Donaldson]

Why should I respect you more for all of this?

[A.J. Hananberg]

Ask me that question again in 10 years.

[Graham Donaldson]

There is something to that. And maybe this is maybe, you know there is. The leeway that we have for these kinds of things does breed a discontent for the school. The thing is, it's like hard to know what the student body thinks about you. And it's hard to know if they like, think of you as an idiot that you can pull the fast one over. And there's also like, I don't want to go find out. Right?

[A.J. Hananberg]

I tend to be hard nosed about most of this stuff and hold the rules. Like stuff is Due at the beginning of class. You have to use a grace pass if you left it in your locker or a late pass. You have to use a late pass if you have to print it after class. Like I just hold the line. But when a student comes and they're clearly distraught and they need more time and they don't have a late work, like I'm receptive to that. They know that beyond those rules, I care for them. I'll ask them how they are, I'll ask them about their hobbies. I get to know them. That's, that is sort of where I find that purchase. So I think he's, he's right. The more you let those lines be squiggly either you have, you just have to be consistent. Right. You can't be hitting it sometimes hitting it not. I think it's okay to be like turn it in. As long as it's due on the day, whenever it comes in is fine. As long as they know what to expect, that's okay. Right. Then they're not really pushing your rules. They're just sort of going with what they expect. The moment a kid turns it in a week late, when it's due that day, that's a problem. I don't know. I tend to be pretty hard nosed on most of this stuff until a student comes to me and actually asks them.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, true, but he's right in saying that like there's a world of difference between the student, the student who does it sort of privately because they need the extra time to get the, the thing done and the student that's like brags about it to everybody else as soon as it's bragged about to everybody else. Like I'm, you know, any teacher is out of all charity because that is a threat to the order of the order of the world.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

And, and you can just revoke their.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Late work passes and say you have forfeited those, you've abused the right. That's your punishment. You can't be late on anything else.

[Thomas Magby]

Is that true? And like the, the late passes are given by the teacher.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Like it's not so as far as I know in our school, and I could be corrected on this, they give a lot of leeway for sensible, logical consequences. And if a kid was bragging about turning in late work and not having to use a late pass, if I went and ran it up the chain and said I want to take away the rest of the late passes, they would probably, I would get an A. Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, for sure.

[A.J. Hananberg]

I'VE had some weird punishments in class before. Get approved.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

So.

[Thomas Magby]

Because it was, like, specific to whatever that student did.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Yeah. I had one kid in a leadership class that could not behave appropriately, and I said, I'm not going to allow them back into class until they can. They can they prove that they want to be here. If they don't want to be here, I don't want them here. And so that kid wasn't in class for, like, three weeks, but we figured it out.

[Thomas Magby]

That's good. Yeah. All right. We got to the end of. On loopholes. Yeah, I just. Just reading this, it's. I think often of Graham's quote of coming to Veritas and realizing that if he was going to be in this position for a long time, he would need to learn to love the students. And what each of these conversations in the book is oriented to is a love of the student. It's like they want. It comes very much from a place of wanting these students to live good lives, happy lives. You know, I want to be careful in the use of happy, but, like, lives that are satisfying and, you know, I could. There's probably an uncharitable way of reading even what we just went through and thinking it's like, oh, why is this teacher coming down so hard on the student? But where it comes from is there is some kind of underlying sin that needs to be dealt with either now or later. And if it's dealt with now, it's much easier than building a life on top of it and then having to deal with it.

[Graham Donaldson]

The hard part is like, all right, we have a high school of 250 kids, roughly. I have half of those because I teach 10th and 12. So I've got, you know, 125, 120 kids, whatever it is, because it's not exactly 250.

[A.J. Hananberg]

It's about 200.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right. Can I actually love 120 kids with that level of, like, getting into it, with the badness I like part of me. So I. I think the answer is no. No, you can't. Maybe. But how. So then is it fair to pick and choose the ones that you really get into? I mean, they have every teacher, like, students say, do you have a. You know, our students say, do you have a favorite student? And the answer is probably, like, yeah, probably I do. There's ones that I enjoy being around more than others.

[A.J. Hananberg]

They're not always the ones that get good grades either, and they're not even.

[Graham Donaldson]

The ones that get grades. But there are ones that, for whom their personalities like I enjoy being around. And then there's ones where you don't. But you all want them to like know truth, goodness and beauty and to have, and to be able to like grow to become competent people who are members of their church who love their spouse like you want the things that are, that are truly good for everybody. But how then, how do you, so then how do you sort of square that with like you can't, you can't pour into everybody to a level of really being involved in their life. The way I think about it is like which kids extracurricular activity decide to go to.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like which student when they ask you, hey, will you come to the play? Hey, you come to the soccer game. You know that those things are really meaningful. Which student do you say, I'm going to go watch that kid play soccer versus oh, I'm going to go watch that kid. When they're on their night at the play. Like, which kid do you say I'm going to be more of the in their life than others? I don't know the answer. That one I find very difficult. I find that hard.

[A.J. Hananberg]

So hanging out, like going to watch things. If kids ask, I'll try to go if it's. And the ones that I'm legitimately friends with, I'll go watch. Because there are some kids you just sort of become friendly with for as far as how to effectively love.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't, I don't think you become. I don't, I don't think there are friends I become friendly with.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Maybe I get a little bit more because I do climb with some of them. So I maybe not friends, but like I become more relation. Like I develop more of a relationship with that kid.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, right.

[A.J. Hananberg]

So friends is maybe the wrong term because it's never an equal friendship until they graduate.

[Graham Donaldson]

And even then it feels, even though.

[A.J. Hananberg]

It'S a little bit weird for a while. But as far as how to love effectively, I really do look for those kids who are. They just seem more receptive. Like they're a little bit more in crisis or heading towards crisis or they have something wrong or like those kids it is, they are the ones that my love will be most effective with. There are some kids who just have their stuff together. They're nailing it every day. They seem fine. They're honest and open. Like they don't, they don't need my attentions as much. And so yep, I become friendly with them or you know, develop relationship with them. That's fine. I'll go to their stuff. But the kids that really are headed towards crisis, those are the ones where me interacting with them on a daily, you know, coming in and say, hey, how is your weekend? How is this specific thing going for you? That's where it's most effective is those kids who are, like, heading towards crisis.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. And I don't. There's probably a question of what the pouring into means, because this conversation is. You give someone a consequence, they come to you and ask why, you explain it to them, and then that could be the end of the conversation.

[Graham Donaldson]

Because, like he says, there's going to be an hour. There's going to be the agonizing that you have that night at dinner when you're at home, and all of a sudden, like, the problem of this kid is, like, in your living room, in your mind, and your wife's, like, talking to you, and you're not paying attention because you're thinking about the meeting that you're going to have tomorrow. Like, you can't do that with every kid.

[Thomas Magby]

Sure. But.

[Graham Donaldson]

So who do you pick?

[Thomas Magby]

What's the but. So you are saying you still do that, but you're picking who that's for. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

How do you do. How do you. How do you pick which ones that you care. Like, how do you pick the ones that you care about, just not that you don't care about? You know, I mean, like, how do you pick the ones that you're gonna go. You're gonna do those extra things, these kinds of conversations, these kinds of, like, I'm trying to save you from your future self. How do you. How do you make those decisions?

[A.J. Hananberg]

I pick the kids that need growth or are ready for it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Sometimes there are kids so entrenched in their badness that my efforts won't help at this point, but I feel like.

[Graham Donaldson]

Kids who are in crisis, I don't know how I. There's like, there's nothing I can do to help them. The ones that I feel like I can. I can help with are the ones that, like, don't realize the horse. Like, the intellectual horsepower that they actually do have and give them some more encouragement and give them, like, other things to read and give them other things and, like, say, yeah, you know, So I don't know.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Interesting.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, let's. Yeah. We'll probably continue this in the. In between then to talk more about that.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Sure.

[Thomas Magby]

But.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sure.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Parlay with Youth. Newest book. It's great. Check it out.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Check it out.

[Thomas Magby]

All right.

[A.J. Hananberg]

This is. Did you stop it?

[Graham Donaldson]

No. You did.

[A.J. Hananberg]

You opened it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, I did. This has been classical stuff. You should know if you.

[A.J. Hananberg]

We're professionals. We're professional.

[Thomas Magby]

Doing this for years.

[Graham Donaldson]

If you want us to pour into your lives as teachers, you can email us at the Guys. No, you. If you want to talk to us, you can email us. If you have questions, you can patronize us on Patreon, wherein we have monthly.

[A.J. Hananberg]

AMAs where some of our subscribers do some patronizing where we did some patronizing, where we.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's a chat. There's a lively chat. That happens.

[A.J. Hananberg]

Which we really enjoy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Make fun of my shoes.

[A.J. Hananberg]

It's so fun.

[Thomas Magby]

You wore bad shoes.

[Graham Donaldson]

I didn't wear bad shoes.

[A.J. Hananberg]

They were fine shoes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Looks fly.

[A.J. Hananberg]

There were probably more appropriate shoes than my shoes.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, I don't think so. You did look good. You've been looking good.

[Thomas Magby]

Thanks, buddy.

[Graham Donaldson]

And we are on Twitter. I mean, technically, you're on Twitter. We technically engage with you on Twitter. There's a loophole. But anyway, thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time.

[Thomas Magby]

Bye.