267: Plato's Dialogues: Meno

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know – Episode 267: Plato's Dialogues: Meno

Release Date: October 1, 2024

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Introduction & Context

In Episode 267 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magby delve into Plato's dialogue Meno. The episode explores profound philosophical questions surrounding the nature of virtue and its teachability, intertwining humor and insightful analysis to make ancient philosophy accessible and engaging.

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Overview of Plato's Meno

The conversation kicks off with the hosts reminiscing about previous episodes on Plato's dialogues, establishing a foundation for their deep dive into Meno. They set the stage by highlighting that Meno is a standalone dialogue, distinct from the narratives involving Socrates' trial, making it an ideal candidate for their discussion.

Graham Donaldson [07:03]:

"Come on, everybody. Just, let me tell you about the essence of virtue."

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The Central Question: Can Virtue be Taught?

At the heart of Meno lies the pivotal question: "Can virtue be taught, or is it acquired by practice?" The hosts dissect this inquiry, examining various perspectives on whether virtue is a form of knowledge or something intrinsically developed through action.

AJ Hanenburg [04:41]:

"Meno's like, 'Can virtue be taught?' So we're going to tackle that without settling what virtue is."

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Meno's Definitions of Virtue and Socrates' Critique

Meno offers multiple definitions of virtue, each met with Socrates' critical examination. The dialogue reveals that Meno struggles to provide a unified essence of virtue, merely listing examples like courage, temperance, and wisdom without capturing their commonalities.

Thomas Magby [11:09]:

"Meno's gonna get flamed in the comments."

Graham Donaldson [11:32]:

"Meno gives his first definition. So is it going to be something comparable, like the effluence of actions that enter our souls?"

Socrates challenges Meno to find the "form" or essence of virtue, much like identifying the true nature of color or shape beyond their examples.

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Meno's Paradox and Socrates' Recollection Theory

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Meno's Paradox: "How can you inquire into something you don't know about?" The hosts explore Socrates' proposed solution through the theory of recollection, suggesting that learning is essentially remembering innate knowledge from past lives.

AJ Hanenburg [24:25]:

"This is Meno's paradox. How do you know that you know something if you don't know it?"

Graham Donaldson [25:02]:

"Plato's weird belief is that we have embedded memories of everything and teaching is just like, uncovering it."

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Discussion on Teaching Virtue: Knowledge vs. Practice

The dialogue transitions into a debate on whether virtue is teachable through knowledge alone or if it necessitates practical application. The hosts argue that while theoretical understanding can be imparted, embodying virtue requires consistent practice and real-life application, a process that is inherently challenging to formalize in educational settings.

AJ Hanenburg [54:07]:

"I think Plato is wrong, that Socrates is wrong. It's not just true opinion."

Graham Donaldson [55:26]:

"It's like, you have to fall in love with virtue itself. You can't just be taught what good is."

They draw parallels to modern education, suggesting that classical schools excel in conveying the theoretical aspects of virtue but often fall short in fostering its practical embodiment.

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Conclusion & Personal Insights from Hosts

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts reflect on the complexities of teaching virtue, acknowledging the intertwined roles of knowledge and practice. They emphasize that while theoretical frameworks provide a foundation, the true manifestation of virtue emerges through lived experiences and personal commitment.

AJ Hanenburg [56:11]:

"I feel much more comfortable saying that virtue is something that is taught via both knowledge and practice. And it's hard and long and complicated."

Thomas Magby [52:04]:

"That's pretty core to the classical education movement."

The episode concludes with a consensus that understanding and cultivating virtue is an ongoing, multifaceted endeavor, bridging ancient philosophies with contemporary educational practices.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Graham Donaldson [07:03]:

  "Come on, everybody. Just, let me tell you about the essence of virtue."

• AJ Hanenburg [04:41]:

  "Meno's like, 'Can virtue be taught?' So we're going to tackle that without settling what virtue is."

• Thomas Magby [11:09]:

  "Meno's gonna get flamed in the comments."

• AJ Hanenburg [24:25]:

  "This is Meno's paradox. How do you know that you know something if you don't know it?"

• Graham Donaldson [25:02]:

  "Plato's weird belief is that we have embedded memories of everything and teaching is just like, uncovering it."

• Graham Donaldson [55:26]:

  "It's like, you have to fall in love with virtue itself. You can't just be taught what good is."

• AJ Hanenburg [56:11]:

  "I feel much more comfortable saying that virtue is something that is taught via both knowledge and practice. And it's hard and long and complicated."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 267 offers a thorough exploration of Plato's Meno, effectively balancing philosophical depth with an approachable dialogue among the hosts. By dissecting ancient theories and relating them to modern educational challenges, Classical Stuff You Should Know provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of virtue, its origins, and its complex nature within the human experience.

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For more insights and discussions on the classical world, tune into future episodes of Classical Stuff You Should Know. Engage with the hosts on YouTube, email, or Patreon to continue the conversation and deepen your appreciation for ancient philosophies.

Transcript

[Graham Donaldson]

Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know. A podcast about ancient books, like philosophy most of the time. Old works of art, plays, Greeks, Romans, countrymen, Italians. Lend me your ears. Just. Yep, some Italians in there and probably some British guys. Yeah. My name is Graham.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Thomas Magby]

Keep it going. This is incredible.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's been a while, boys.

[AJ Hannenberg]

We've been doing this for eight.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's been a while, but we've been. We've been sick. We haven't been. We haven't recorded in a little bit. AJ Is going to be hacking through this whole thing.

[Thomas Magby]

There it is right there. You want more cough drops? You have more in front of you.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I don't know if they. I had, like, nine of them.

[Thomas Magby]

Let's try nine more.

[Graham Donaldson]

My name is Graham Donaldson, and I'm joined by Hacky McGee, AJ Hannenberg over here, and Hagenberg and Thomas Magby.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Hello.

[Graham Donaldson]

And we are going to be looking for a brightly colored fish today because it's lost.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

At sea. And we need to find it. It's a delightful children's book or children's movie.

[Thomas Magby]

Sorry.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's a delightful children's movie about an intrepid young. Well, I guess it's the dad looking for his child for sure. His child. What happened? Got flushed or something. I haven't. It's been a long time since I've seen the movie. But he ends up in, like, an aquarium. And there's seagulls.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Crabs.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, there's crabs in it. And then they find each other at the end.

[Thomas Magby]

Spoiler. I don't know.

[AJ Hannenberg]

There's some sharks, aren't there?

[Graham Donaldson]

There's definitely some sharks. Friends, not food. And. Yeah. So we're gonna be talking.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Sued for Disney.

[Thomas Magby]

Describing the plot of her describing the.

[Graham Donaldson]

Plot of finding Nino. So here we go.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Awesome.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Great. So.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, my gosh. This is not.

[Graham Donaldson]

If people are wondering why we haven't had an episode in, you know, a couple weeks is because AJ Got pneumonia.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, I've had. I'm just saying pneumonia is maybe overselling it. I've had what I think is a mild to moderate case of walking pneumonia. So it's like when they listen to my lungs, there was not a whole lot of wheezing, but I wasn't getting better. It was. I was two weeks in, and I was, like, up and down, and it was this whole thing.

[Thomas Magby]

How am I not going to get sick from this?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Because I just finished, like, I finally went to the doctor, and I just finished my Z Pack antibiotics.

[Thomas Magby]

So nervous about this I'm glad you're getting better.

[Graham Donaldson]

And then I got. I was feeling like I was coming down with it, but then I didn't get it.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, we had one of the teachers in our school who also got it, our compatriot, and she was in the hospital for, oh, like, a week and a half.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's been something going around. So if you're wondering why we haven't been recording, it's because of that.

[AJ Hannenberg]

It's because I've been ill. We really do value you guys, and we're sorry we haven't been able to get together. I would love to blame a little bit of my forgetfulness this morning on, you know what? Why don't I. I had pneumonia. And this morning, I, like, prepared for the episode. And in my rush out the door, I forgot to grab the book. So there's a couple of times when I will. You know, where I would have read quotes but couldn't. Couldn't hack it today. So I'm sorry. Forgot the book.

[Thomas Magby]

You're doing a great job hacking it. Like, that's the problem.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Oh, my gosh.

[Graham Donaldson]

All right, Weezer, let's go.

[AJ Hannenberg]

That was my confession time.

[Graham Donaldson]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[AJ Hannenberg]

All right, so Mino. Mino is one of Plato's dialogues. We have done a few episodes on these before. We have done, if I remember correctly, the first three, thanks to Mr. Thomas Magby over here.

[Graham Donaldson]

First three what?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Of Plato's Dialogues.

[Thomas Magby]

That was definitely.

[AJ Hannenberg]

They're in order.

[Thomas Magby]

What? Wait, say.

[Graham Donaldson]

When you say the first three, what are they?

[AJ Hannenberg]

So there's Euthyphro, there's apology, and then Crito, I think, is the next one, which.

[Thomas Magby]

Those were all.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, those are my episodes.

[Thomas Magby]

Those are all Grahams.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Oh, they're.

[Graham Donaldson]

Those aren't, like, in any specific order. Those are. I mean.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Well, a couple of them are because it's Socrates walking into the.

[Thomas Magby]

We're starting our fighting really early. I want to get to the content.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, I mean, like, okay, very clearly, a couple of those are actually in order.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, no, but you said the first three. It's like, how do we know that? Whatever. Doesn't matter.

[Thomas Magby]

We're off to a great start.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Roaring start.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Incredible. Okay, we have done three dialogues, thanks to Graham.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So we were very good episodes. Euthyphro, which is Socrates walking into the judge's house. And then we've done Apology, which is where Socrates defends himself. And then what's credo.

[Graham Donaldson]

What's in jail where his buddy's like, hey, man, you should just leave.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Get you out of Here.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Socrates is like, I will do no injustice to the city's like, ugh.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So Meno is a standalone. It does not actually hang with that other little narrative. It's its own little deal. And it's clearly before Socrates was put to death because Socrates is character in it and he's not at the courthouse. So this is sort of its own standalone little thing. I say it's fourth because in the book that I'm currently doing with the parents here at Veritas, it is the fourth dialogue. And I promised all the parents that I would do an episode for each of the dialogues they were working on.

[Thomas Magby]

That's nice.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So this is number four. So Meno, luckily there's not a whole lot of question about what this dialogue is about because really it pounces on it with the exact, like the first line and I quote it. It's can you tell me, Socrates, whether virtue is acquired by teaching or by practice? Or if neither by teaching nor by practice, then whether it comes to man by nature or in what other way? So it just like lays the groundwork for the entire thing right there at the beginning. This is the question we're going to answer is, can you get virtue be. Can it be taught or is it by practice? Or if it's not one of those, then is it natural or do we get it some other way?

[Graham Donaldson]

Awesome. I'm excited. Can virtue be taught?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, can virtue be taught? Right now, before we get into it, like, I think Donaldson, you've read this one before.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes, yes, but I. It's been a long time. All I remember is like, we're going to be drawing in the sand. We're going to be drawing squares in the sand at some point.

[AJ Hannenberg]

At some point, yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's all I remember.

[AJ Hannenberg]

What, what are your guys opinions right now as to whether or not virtue can be actually taught?

[Thomas Magby]

It has to be, right? Like what's the point of education if the answer is no? So there must be some way that a person has developed and grown and so it has to be able to be taught.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, the line says, but could you.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Like take a kid and say, I am going to, I'm a teacher of virtue. Sign your kid up for my classes. I will have them virtuous by the end of the year or more. Virtuous?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, I think you do it, but you don't do it by going at the virtue you like. You make them study a really hard topic or work on something difficult and they will develop the virtue through that. So, so it's by practice. So that.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, it's not taught, but it's taught. Teaching or by practice. In this case, it's by practice.

[Thomas Magby]

So teaching has to be spoken. What are my.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Like, could you say here is the virtue. Here is what you do. Now go and do it, youngster.

[Thomas Magby]

And he could do that. But yeah, so it's much more effective.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Like as a father to make your kid do the thing that would give the virtue.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, but I mean, am I annoying if I start off by saying it's both? Because I will both have to like verbally correct my son and then give him practice to like do. To go forward from there.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, that's fine.

[Thomas Magby]

Going to be both.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I'm just trying to get a basic groundwork.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, you need, you need the like theory which is the teaching and you need the.

[Thomas Magby]

Then what do you do differently?

[Graham Donaldson]

The embodiment of the lesson which is the practice. Right?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay, so did we just answer it?

[AJ Hannenberg]

We'll get there. We'll get there. I'd love to hear you guys opinions when we're actually done.

[Thomas Magby]

Did you give an answer that was it?

[Graham Donaldson]

It was. It is both that you need the theory and then you need the like embodiment of the lesson.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, so you guys both say both. Great. Socrates responds by saying, I don't even know what virtue is. So I, I can't even really tell you if it's required by teaching or by practice because I literally can't find anyone who will tell me what it is. And I don't know what it is myself. And so if you're looking for how to what virtue is, like, I definitely can't answer you. I don't know anyone who can. And Mino says like Socrates, did you know this guy named Georgius? He used to teach this stuff. He had an idea. And Socrates is like, I feel like I met him once. But would you please enlighten me as to what virtue is, Mr. Meno? And if you can't give Georgiuses, if you don't remember, tell me your definition and if you can tell me what the essence of virtue is, maybe we can figure out if it can be taught.

[Graham Donaldson]

He does meet Gorgias in a different way. There's a whole dialogue called Gorgias.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Oh great.

[Graham Donaldson]

I was preparing that one, but it was too long, so I'm doing something different.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Got it?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, but it's gorgeous. Get down to work for what is rhetoric?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Oh really?

[Graham Donaldson]

That's what the lesson is on that one.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I don't think that's one of the ones that's in the little book we're. We're doing. I think it has the symposium.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's because gorgeous is very long. It does a number of things.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, well, interesting. So Mino gives his first definition. Now he's gonna give a few definitions. I think I have three kind of outlined here. Let's go as to what. What is the actual.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm so sorry.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Can we do anything for you at this point?

[Graham Donaldson]

This is the best AJ We've had in, like, two weeks.

[AJ Hannenberg]

At this point, I'm actually feeling pretty strong. For a long time, I was, like, I had, you know, about. I just felt like I was running at 50% power. Like, I was really exhausted all the time. I was coughing my brains out.

[Thomas Magby]

Anyway, that's tough.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Right now I actually have some decent energy, so could be the caffeine. So his first definition. This is Mino's first try as to what virtue is. And I. Maybe I should ask this question, too. Can you guys give me a definition of virtue? What is virtue? I feel like. Donaldson, you might have it memorized.

[Thomas Magby]

Go for it, Graham.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wisdom, justice, courage, temperance.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Those are examples.

[Thomas Magby]

What is.

[AJ Hannenberg]

That's not the essence of virtue. And that's great, because that's exactly what Meno does.

[Graham Donaldson]

Good names them the telos of man, the thing that makes man happy.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So it's what.

[Thomas Magby]

Whatever makes man happy is what virtue is.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Are you, like, playing into my hands here?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, I don't think so. I don't think.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Do you not have the actual definition?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't have the actual definition.

[Thomas Magby]

When you say the actual definition.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. What do you mean?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, I'm thinking of Aristotle. Right. It's. It wasn't it like a.

[Graham Donaldson]

Something of the tell is the end. It's the function of man.

[AJ Hannenberg]

No, I thought it was something. Something falling between a mean. It's like it's a habit of action.

[Graham Donaldson]

Falling between the two. Two extremes.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Falling between the two extremes of too much and too little. Like, there is an Aristotelian definition of this. And I feel like that.

[Graham Donaldson]

The golden mean, I guess, is that's what sounds like you're getting at, which is like. Yeah, a habit or an action that falls between two extremes.

[Thomas Magby]

It's like moral excellence. Right. Like, don't we need something more than just this, like, mean. Between.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, okay. I thought. I thought Donaldson would have a ready answer.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, sorry. No, I don't have the answer. I don't know.

[AJ Hannenberg]

No, that's okay. It's not a. It's not a criticism now. I Feel bad because I shouldn't come with the definition.

[Graham Donaldson]

I feel like.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Now I feel bad. I feel so bad now I've called you to the floor. And really, it's my own deficiency, because I should have come with the definitions from Aristotle.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm like, I can only communicate by bashing rocks together.

[AJ Hannenberg]

It's something. I know it's something. I just know we've discussed it before, Right. When we talked about the Nicomachean ethics.

[Thomas Magby]

Right, I'm sure we did.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. We've definitely talked about this. Anyway, so that's. I just thought we would have it. I, you know, I should have prepared that. That's. That's on me. Okay, so Meno says, the virtue of man is he should know how to administer the state and in the. In the administration of it, to benefit his friends, hurt his enemies. Hurt his enemies. And he must also be careful not to suffer harm himself. A woman's virtue, if you wish to know about that, may also be easily described. Her duty is to order her house and keep what is indoors and obey her husband. Every age, every condition of life, young or old, male or female, bond or free, has a different virtue. There are virtues, numberless, and no lack of definitions of them. For virtue is relative to the actions and ages of each of us in all that we do. And the same may be said vice. And Socrates is like, wow, I ask for what virtue is, you give me a whole swarm. Awesome. Like, numberless virtues. Fantastic.

[Graham Donaldson]

Meno's gonna get flamed in the comments.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, 100%.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. Yeah. So. Well, it doesn't really go very well for him. So Socrates points out. He's like, okay, you're talking about, like, a whole bunch of examples of things. Sure. Like bees. Like, there's all kinds of different bees. Like a whole swarm. But I want to know what is common to the bees. Can you tell me? Like. Like, you've given me some examples. You still haven't given me the form, the essence of it. Right, the form of it.

[Graham Donaldson]

So the Eidos.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. And you say virtue changes with man or woman or child. Is the same of strength or health, or are those the same? Isn't virtue kind of the same as that Amino's? Like, I think it's different. Like, Meno doesn't seem to be very sure of any of the stuff he says. And Socrates points out that neither the state nor the house can be ordered without temperance and without justice. So all men must do good in some of the same ways. Right. So if I'm ordering the state or ordering my house. Both of those need justice and temperance.

[Graham Donaldson]

And it's not just a man thing and a woman thing, because it's not.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Just a man thing and a woman.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're both participating in this thing.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yes. They both have this. Some common thread of virtue running through them. Right. So he's like, okay, so again, what is virtue? So Meno goes for definition number two. And he goes, okay, fine. Virtue is the power of governing mankind. Okay, so your, Your thoughts on this? Is that a good definition of virtue, the power to govern mankind?

[Thomas Magby]

No, because you can use that power for good or bad. Like, that doesn't seem like a.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, great.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. It doesn't seem to have, like a moral valence. I don't know why that would be good.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

That would be. What I say too, is that, yes, it's. It doesn't have the power.

[Thomas Magby]

More so than.

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly. It doesn't have the moral valence. Socrates is wanting. Socrates is wanting the. The form of virtue. He, like, wants. He wants to be able to have. Don't just give me examples. Give me the. Give me the thing that I can have, that I can recognize it in the wild and be able to say, that is virtue because of this reason. Yes, of this form.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Exactly right. He also points out that, like, look, if it's the power of governing mankind, there's a lot of people that doesn't really work for, like, children, Right. You said there was a virtue to every age and every form of being, but this one doesn't work for kids. It doesn't work for slaves, doesn't work for any of those people. So presumably, like, either they don't have virtue, or we're not really actually talking about virtue. Right. So something is a little bit screwy. Right. Mino names. So he's like, okay, again, I'm going to ask you, like, you've given me a thing. It's not really working. So what are the virtues? And Meno names a few. He says, courage, temperance, wisdom, magnanimity, and there are many others. And Socrates is like, yes, I hear you, but what is common to them all? And Meno is confused about what he's asking. He's like, I've just given you a whole bunch of virtues. And Socrates is like, all right, look, man, for example, if we're talking about color, I've said, tell me what color is. And you've said like, orange, blue or orange, or in this case, whiteness. And he's. And he's like, that's not what color actually is. Or for Example shape. If I say, tell me what a shape is, or a. Then you give me a circle. Really? That's an example of a shape, but that's not shapeness itself, because there's also squares and there's also orange and there's also blue.

[Thomas Magby]

Socrates is nice.

[AJ Hannenberg]

And all those things.

[Thomas Magby]

I don't.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Man, I know.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, someone should kill that guy.

[AJ Hannenberg]

And so he gives these examples, and Mino kind of goes down a rabbit hole or a rabbit trail or a bunny trail. Bunny trail or a pigeonhole.

[Graham Donaldson]

Pigeon hole.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Anyway, he goes down.

[Thomas Magby]

That's a reference to our ama. Most people listening have no idea what you're talking about.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So Meno kind of. Kind of takes the bait and he says, okay, so what exactly is shape? What is that? And Socrates trolls him a little bit, and he's like, well, it's the thing that when you're describing something comes right after you tell its color. Okay, that's good. All right. Socrates, like, that does it. And he's like, I challenge you to find someone who could, like, prove that untrue. But. And so Mina's like, all right, well, give me the actual form of it. Like, tell me what you mean when you mean shape instead of just when people talk about it. And Socrates is like, fine, I will give you an example.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, no, I don't want an example.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Or not an example, but I will tell you. I will tell you the essence of it. So can you guys give. Give me, like, the definition. What is the essence of shape?

[Thomas Magby]

I have no idea.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Can you tell me what a shape is?

[Graham Donaldson]

It would be the. The boundary. The boundaries of an object in space.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Point Donaldson.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. Wow.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Socrates says it is where a solid ends. It is the limits of a solid, like a solid plane. And Meno's like, great, Okay, I read.

[Graham Donaldson]

A lot of Plato, so apparently.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, seriously.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So you've told me that. Meno's like, then what's a color, Socrates? So what's the color, boys?

[Graham Donaldson]

The. Let me think. The particular light of a shape.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, pretty good. I think we've advanced a little in science since this era. Now we can say it's the single wavelength of light not absorbed by the shape itself that is reflected into our eyes. That process that through pictures, like electronic stimuli, right through the cones and rods. Like, we have a lot more to say about what exactly a color is. It's a wavelength of light. Although we don't. Like, light acts weird. But, you know, we're still working on that part, but we have a lot more to say. He Says, and this is kind of great, color is an effluence of existence. It's a thing put off by existence that enters certain passages in our body. So to quote an effluence of form commensurate with sight and palpable to sense. So for him, and weirdly enough, he's kind of not that far off, it's a thing that existence just sort of like exudes. It's like secretion of things and it enters one of the passageways in our body. Just like sound is an effluence of existence.

[Thomas Magby]

Because does sound or smell, does that fit his definition or does it say something? Okay, cool.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So sound comes off of things that exist, and it's those particular passage in our bodies, our ears. Right? Smell goes through the nose.

[Thomas Magby]

Did he say this was his definition of color?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yes. So color is the one that goes through the eyeball passages.

[Thomas Magby]

So you just pick which passage.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Right? And it's palpable to sense. And so he's like, that's what color is. And Mino's like, okay, all right, that makes sense. So Socrates is like, says, all right, Meno, I have answered your questions about what shape and what color are. You still haven't answered mine about exactly what virtue is. So if you would please, please educate me, for I still do not know exactly what virtue is and I would love to answer your question. So can you give me that essence one more time?

[Graham Donaldson]

So is it going to be something comparable, like the effluence of actions that enter our souls?

[AJ Hannenberg]

No. Oh no, He. I mean, it's another swing and a miss by Mino, if I'm honest.

[Thomas Magby]

Bummer.

[AJ Hannenberg]

The desire of things honorable and the power of attaining them. So wanting good things and then being able to get them, that is the definition.

[Thomas Magby]

But like the attack will be then what's the good thing? Like, how do you pick, how do you separate what the good end and the bad end is?

[Graham Donaldson]

Or if honorable is just. He's going to say honor is what everybody praises. And that doesn't. People can praise bad things and honor you for bad things.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, no points for either of you. Bummer. So Socrates says, so there are some who desire evil in this case, and some who desire good. Right? So in your definition, right, if it's desiring honorable things, there must be some people who want bad things. And Meno's like, yeah. He goes, so some want evil? Meno says, yes. And he goes, do you think, do those people who want evil, do they think those evils are good or do they Know they are bad for them, like the evils that these guys want. And he goes, well, you know, maybe a little bit of both. Some people know they're good, some people know they're bad, and they all want the evils just the same. And Socrates is like, to possess them. They want these things to, like, have them and have them with them. And he goes, yeah, absolutely. And he goes, so do they want evils and. No, they are bad. Sorry. So some suppose they are goods, and those who want the evils, they are hurt by these evils. So, like, the people who think they are goods are just mistaken, but the people who actually want the evil, they are hurt by them. Yes. And Meno goes, yeah, presumably, yes. And Socrates says. And they thereby become miserable. You know, says, yes. And he's like, but nobody wants to be miserable, right? And he goes, well, yeah, nobody wants to be miserable.

[Graham Donaldson]

So nobody. So they are mistaken.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So he says, nobody actually wants the evils. What everybody desires is good, right? So if that's virtue, literally everyone has it. Yes, Everybody wants what is good. So it's not just the desire. Everybody has that. Thoughts so far.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I mean, I. I get it.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Do you agree? I'm not sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, but so there's always we. Socrates makes this claim in Euthyphro as well. And every year there's a student that's like, what about just like sociopaths that don't. That just like, don't know, or people that just, like, don't want happiness, they actually really want to be miserable. And it's like, I feel like those are the exceptions that prove the rule. Right. So generally speaking, people all operate under some sort of sense of wanting to be happy.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I was gonna say, what about, like.

[Graham Donaldson]

Addicts, but they have a vision of happiness, or they. Or they've gotten to the point where they've like, fried themselves so much that. That they're almost like they're the. Again, the exceptions that prove the rule that they've. They've taken. Their bodies are. If we're gonna. Their bodies are chemically addicted to a thing that they know is killing them. But, like, it's. They. They're slaves to it now, but they.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Really do desire the good. And the desire is to be off of it for.

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly.

[AJ Hannenberg]

But the original desire was to, like, have a good night or to get.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or to escape something. Escape something evil. Exactly. So it was still a movement towards a vision of happiness and goodness, even if it was mistaken, which is what Socrates is saying.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. So Socrates says, look, fine, if it's not the desire, right? Then it must be the power of getting it, right? Maybe. Maybe that's it. You said the desire and the power to get it, so it must be just the power. And Mino goes, absolutely. That's what it is. And Socrates says, is any mode of getting it.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, yeah, we get the same problem of you can go about things in.

[AJ Hannenberg]

A bad way, Right, exactly. Even if it's unjust or dishonest. And Mino goes, no, no, no, that's vice. Can't do that. And he goes, okay, so some part of your virtue must accompany your acquisition, right? So it's not just the acquisition. There has to be virtue kind of hooked onto it. He goes, yeah, all right. And without them, the mere acquisition wouldn't be virtue. Meno says, yes, absolutely. And he goes, so getting in a bad way is vice. So not getting it in a bad way, and even lacking those goods, those things you would have gotten, that would be virtue. And he goes, yes, I guess. And so he's like, okay, so then the getting of it doesn't matter, but it's whatever is accompanied by justice or honesty, and whatever is devoid of justice is vice. So that amino goes, well, it can't be otherwise, in my judgment. And that's a direct quote. So he's given that definition and he's pointed out, like, how you get it really matters, and if you don't get it honestly, but so you don't have it. Well, you don't have the good, and it's not desiring the good, but you're still virtuous. And so it definitely can't be that definition you've given. Socrates says, it repletes our problem. Each of these is a part of virtue. So still haven't given me the essence. And so now Socrates is confused. Anything done with a part of. He says, I'm confused. Anything done with a part of virtue is virtue. But I don't know the whole of virtue. And you only give me pieces. I'm confuzzled. And Meno's like, well, crap. Also, I'm confused. And then he goes on this little monologue I was gonna read, but he basically says, nah, I get it. I get it. When people talk about you and they say that you're.

[Thomas Magby]

You're so annoying.

[AJ Hannenberg]

He's like, I heard rumors that what you do is just confuse people and make them doubt themselves and make them doubt everything. And you're like a torpedo fish that stupefies its subject. And Socrates is like, man, they weren't kidding. I do that to them, but I also do it to myself. If a torpedo fish can stupefy himself, that's what's happening. Because I'm confused. I don't know what's going on.

[Thomas Magby]

I just want to. I just pulled it up. Torpedo fish is actually in that monologue. Like, that's the actual. I thought you were just like making up that phrase.

[AJ Hannenberg]

No, he says torpedo fish.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm just. I just wanted to confirm that it's. It's in there.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I assume that's what I mean by torpid. Like.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, you think? Okay.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Probably.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

What's a torpedo fish?

[AJ Hannenberg]

I don't know. It sounds awesome.

[Thomas Magby]

It says the flat torpedo fish. That's what they call it. I don't know what that is.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I feel like this is worth a Google.

[Thomas Magby]

An electric ray. That's what comes up when I search for it.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

The common torpedo is an electric ray. There you go.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So then they have a short exchange where Mino asks if it is even worth investigating into something that you don't know about. Because how is it even possible if you get the thing, you don't even know that that's what you wanted because you don't know anything about it and you don't know how to go about it. So it's almost impossible to try to get knowledge that you do not have or find out something about something you know nothing about. What are your thoughts on that? If I don't know about something, how do you inquire and know that you've actually got what you're looking for? Because you don't know anything about it.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is Mino's paradox.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay? Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Amino's paradox is you talk to experts.

[Thomas Magby]

Like you talk to people who do know. I don't.

[Graham Donaldson]

But how do you know you get it if you don't know it? Then how do you know you have it when you get it if you didn't know it in the first place?

[Thomas Magby]

By a consensus of people who do know.

[Graham Donaldson]

So that's it. It's just like. It's just, what if they don't know it? It's just a voting machine.

[Thomas Magby]

Kind of like, what is good taste? Like you have people with good taste and they agree on something.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's objective beauty.

[Thomas Magby]

Who declares it objective? The people with taste. Right. We're back to the same thing. No, no, we're like, what is good practice and education? You would like, go to the form.

[Graham Donaldson]

Of beauty exists out there and we just remember it.

[Thomas Magby]

And who has access to.

[Graham Donaldson]

We remember the thing we've never known.

[Thomas Magby]

What is he doing right now? I'm giving you this. Yeah.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So Socrates.

[Graham Donaldson]

Socrates is weird. Oh, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, from what I remember, his weird belief is that, like, we have embedded memories of everything and teaching is just like, uncovering it. And Socrates is like, let me prove it to you. And then he, like, teaches a kid how to do math.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Pythagorean thesis.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So he. He basically says the. There are prophets who say that we are essentially reincarnated. The human soul is immortal, which means that it's, you know, gone through several lifetimes before. And when we are in the real world, we are not actually discovering anything about anything. We are simply remembering knowledge that we already have. And that means that inquiry is worth it because we're just remembering stuff we already knew. It's not trying to get at something we have no knowledge of before we already have the knowledge. It's just sort of like recovering it. Right. And that way we can get out of Mino's paradox, which is you cannot inquire into something you don't know about.

[Thomas Magby]

But, like, people know about. Sir Gawain, like what. How does that. Or is this only for certain types of topics? It must be because, like, you've never read a book before. I can't have remembered that book, right?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Oh, you mean.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, that book didn't exist in your past life or something.

[Thomas Magby]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or like, if you're gonna learn the news.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. You have to read it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. So I think he's. He's thinking more about, like, things that exist. I think he's thinking more about, like, first principles and forms and more axiomatic things and. Or the givenness of human. Of the human nature. So virtues.

[Thomas Magby]

And he would say. So then these things don't change over time.

[Graham Donaldson]

These things don't change over time. So, you know, Plato maybe has this immortality of the soul and you're going back and remembering it later. Christian philosophers, when they read Plato, they're like, wow, the soul's not immortal in the way that Plato thinks. But what maybe we can say when in Scripture when it says man is made in God's image, this made in God's imageness is the thing that is quote, unquote, remembering. When you're learning something new is that this. The rational faculties of man is this thing. And so when you learn something, you're remembering. Remembering what God knows. If you want to put it that way.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, weird. I want to talk more about this.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay. Maybe that's an in between thing.

[AJ Hannenberg]

But he's right. What happens is Socrates demonstrates this by calling over one of Meno's young slaves and then essentially teaching him math. He says, if we take this side and we double it, now we have how long? And the kid's like, two. It's too long. And then he's like, okay, if we have a side like that and then we stretch it up, what will the area of the square be? And the kid's like, two. And he's like, no. If, like, it's this many boxes. And the kid's like, oh, four. And he's like, okay, if we double each side, what'll it be? And the kid's like 8. And he's like, no. And then he kind of shows the kid and walks him through it. And then at the end of it, this little slave, who ostensibly has had no education, kind of knows how to calculate the area of something, okay? And Socrates says, isn't that amazing? Did anyone teach him this? And Meno's like, no. And he goes, didn't Socrates teach him that? And that's the thing is Socrates, what are we doing?

[Thomas Magby]

Is this real?

[AJ Hannenberg]

When you read it? It is clearly Socrates teaching this kid through questions. It's like me saying, did you know that there's a pocket knife in my room? And you're like, no. And I was like, did you know that if I open this drawer and you look inside, there's a pocket knife? And you're like, no, I'm remembering that. You're remembering that my pocket knife is there. And so it's yes, it's questions. But the conclusion of Socrates is, nobody taught him this. There's no way he could know this unless he had been taught geometry. So we must be remembering it from previous life. Therefore, soul is immortal. Therefore we don't have to worry about your stupid paradox. We can inquire into all kinds of things because it's stuff we already know, which is.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's a janky argument. But isn't he more doing, like, showing that we get to truth? Because we have lodge, we have this dialectical faculties where we can answer questions. When we answer questions, we can get to a place of knowing about something that we didn't know about before. So just by asking questions and eliminating wrong answers and getting to right answers that you can observe, you get to a true thing, which is you now have a formula for calculating area. And this is the Socrates rational method. He wants to ask questions to eliminate examples of virtue, to eliminate what isn't virtue, to get to a formula that you can then say, just like how you now know how to apply the area of a square. You now know how to apply virtue to a life. That's what he's trying to do with dialectic, but it works with math. But the question is, does it work with these kinds of things, like virtue?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. And what I was thinking about when I was on the drive down here is, how do we distinguish in our own minds between those two things, between the function of our logical faculties and memory? What's the difference?

[Graham Donaldson]

And memory?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, well, remembering things, right. How would you delineate the difference? What is the actual difference in what's happening in your mind?

[Thomas Magby]

Isn't logic like, I'm thinking through the thing versus memory? As I'm like, logic is a present thing that I'm doing and memory is recalling a past thing.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. But in either way, I was just kind of like, in both instances, the answer will pop into your brain eventually. And I think maybe it's that memory comes unbidden. But that's not always true. Sometimes it takes prompt.

[Graham Donaldson]

Memory is from experience. Right. Memory is a thing that you have experienced before, whereas logic is just like a faculty that you. It's like a program that you can run.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, Yeah. I mean, I agree with that. I think they didn't necessarily have a category yet for that. Maybe that's what's going on. I mean, they talked about reason all the time, which is crazy that they don't make that connection. That, like, what is happening with this slave is the functioning of his rational faculties. That, yes, even a slave can have those. It's like. I think. I think Plato even talks about it being a piece of all men. Right. They can all do this. They all have this faculty. It's not just memory. And he's clearly walking the kid through this. He didn't just walk the kid up and say, tell me how to do a square, and the kid, like, gets it. So I don't know. I find this little bit pretty hard to swallow. And it's kind of a ridiculous little piece, I think, but it's.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I mean, but it does open up, really, that. Those sort of profound questions about, like, why does walking through a logical thing where Socrates is basically asking questions to eliminate wrong answers. How can it, like, two pages get you to a pretty profound statement of truth about a square, but the same function cannot get you to profound statements of truth about virtue? Like we, like. Socrates never gets to the algorithm or the sort of the. The. The. The formula of virtue.

[AJ Hannenberg]

No, he does it's not a great answer.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, but, but the thing is, but he.

[Thomas Magby]

But the math answer is great, but.

[Graham Donaldson]

The math is a great answer. So this is.

[Thomas Magby]

Works for certain.

[Graham Donaldson]

That big question of humanity is like why is it. Why is reason alone not enough to get you to answers about happiness and virtue?

[Thomas Magby]

So is this, this is Socrates's answer to you call this Mina's paradox.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Which is how do you know that you know something? When you, how do you know that the answer you get is what is true?

[Thomas Magby]

And the answer is. I remember it.

[Graham Donaldson]

The answer is that the answer is, is that you are. You knew it before and by asking questions you're like uncovering it. And then the reason you know it's true is because your reason is telling you that it's true and you remember it from before.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, not a great answer.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's not a great answer. But no, if you separate the like reincarnation thing with that question about like believing that let. Like when you come up to a statement of yes or a logical statement that when you. When he says, hey, how many. If you double the size of this line, how many boxes are there? And it's two. Like that is a true statement. If we have the capacity to make true statements and recognize truth in those statements, why does that function not able. Be able to apply to everything in our life?

[Thomas Magby]

Sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's. That's sort of the, the what's behind it? What's behind it? I think.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Interesting.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. It's like what if you. Yeah. Why does the tool that works on certain things of coming up with truth not work with all truth? Is truth in regards to virtue or is the F of virtue like just a different kind of truth than the idea?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Perhaps some that are not as self evident. Like I'd say certain philosophical truths are easy. Right. Is it good to steal your neighbor's stuff and then punch them in the neck? No, that's not good. That's an easy philosophical truth, right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or a positive. Easy philosophical truth is people are motivated by a vision of happiness.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, sure, those things are easy. Just like in math, certain things are easy to identify as like, yes, this is a clear truth. When you start getting into imaginary numbers and really high level math, it gets a little harder. And exercising your reasonable faculties doesn't make it as evident as quickly. That's why we have only a few math majors, you know. So I'd say just like in philosophy there's easy stuff that we can quickly recognize and there's hard stuff. And in math there's easy stuff and there's hard stuff. The same is true in logic. Right. When I work with my students in logic, we have a number of logical operators. When we do symbolic logic, you can actually eliminate most of those with complicated replacements and get down to only a few operators that can do most of logic.

[Thomas Magby]

Like you only need two, basically.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That stuff is more complicated and harder for ninth graders to kind of tackle is how to get yourself from many logical operators down to essentially two. But it can be done. And so I think it. Maybe it's just levels of complexity.

[Thomas Magby]

The two logical operators, it's with your vin, isn't it?

[AJ Hannenberg]

An if then and conjuring something, it's.

[Thomas Magby]

Shown with a Venn diagram. So you need the one that has the overlap between the two, and you need the one that has the not overlap between the two.

[Graham Donaldson]

Gotcha.

[Thomas Magby]

Those are the two. And then you can get to everything else from there.

[Graham Donaldson]

Gotcha. Okay.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

I started waving my hands for the, for the podcast audience, so.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So check us out on YouTube, everybody.

[Thomas Magby]

Thanks. Good.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Okay, so we have the big demonstration of the slave. He proves, okay, soul is immortal. We can actually inquire into things we don't know about. And they're like, great, thank heavens we solved that. Let's get back to the whole virtue thing. And Socrates. So they're like, can virtue be taught? And Socrates is like, fine, we don't know what virtue is. Cool, let's talk about. And we're just going to leave that. And maybe like in science, we don't quite know what we're dealing with. We can do a small hypothesis, test it out, see if it works, and then we'll move on. So we're just going to ask, can virtue be taught? We're just going to tackle that without settling what virtue is. We're going to ask, is it a thing that can be taught? And Socrates is like, I'm not entirely comfortable with this, but this is what we're going to do. So he says, isn't only knowledge taught? The guy's like, yeah, that makes sense. So he says, okay, if virtue is knowledge, then it, it can be taught. It can be taught, right? So is virtue knowledge? He says, well, virtue is good, but it might be one of those. Virtue is a good, but it might be one of those goods that's outside of knowledge, right? There's knowledge goods and then there's other goods. Maybe like health, right? Health would probably be a good that's outside of knowledge. But if knowledge embraces all good, right? If knowledge is over encompassing Then virtue is a knowledge, and therefore it could be taught. So I put together a little syllogism. All virtue is good. If all virtue is good and all good is knowledge, then virtue is knowledge. Right? And he says, okay, all good things are profitable, but health and wealth and beauty are good, but they can also harm us if we don't do it. Right. Right. Too much wealth can get us in a bad situation. You can run too much and your hair falls out. Beauty can get you into trouble. So really, it needs to be under the guidance of prudence and wisdom.

[Graham Donaldson]

Never got me into trouble.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Your beauty.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[AJ Hannenberg]

My signal. Something.

[Thomas Magby]

Dang.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Sorry.

[Thomas Magby]

Wow.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Feeling sassy today.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Sad Graham. Sorry.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Sad Graham.

[Thomas Magby]

Sorry. He's fine.

[AJ Hannenberg]

You look great. I actually think you look. I've never complimented. Have I ever complimented that?

[Thomas Magby]

Are we really doing this right now?

[AJ Hannenberg]

I feel bad.

[Thomas Magby]

Awesome.

[Graham Donaldson]

So my hat's being a little.

[AJ Hannenberg]

All right.

[Thomas Magby]

But we're back to. We need to figure out what virtue is to decide whether it can be taught.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's the health of the soul. Right. Isn't that the.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So we'll get there. So he's like, the same is true of character traits. So virtue must be a sort of wisdom or prudence. And it's a wisdom. And wisdom is that which profits. So virtue is some sort of, like, wisdom or prudence about guiding how we do stuff. Right. Because all those goods are there, but they all have to be kind of under wisdom, and it's wisdom that brings us good stuff. So if virtue is wisdom, then virtue must be taught.

[Graham Donaldson]

And.

[AJ Hannenberg]

And the guy's like, great, we got it. Virtue is wisdom. Virtue must be taught. And he goes, nah, but what if we're wrong here? Wouldn't something that's taught have teachers and disciples? Like, if virtue can be taught, there would be teachers and there would be people learning it. And he goes, I don't know any of those. I don't know anybody who's out there teaching virtue. Luckily, we've got our rich friend over here. Let's ask him. Let's ask Anytus. So they go over to Anytus and they're like, hey, man, do you know any teachers of virtue? We don't really know any. You've got the means to do it, right? So do you. And he's like, tell you what, those guys who claim they do it, I'd stare. Clear them. All those sophists. Like, stay away from those guys. I hate those guys. They are a bunch of grifters and will take all your cash. So stay Away from them. And Socrates is like, oh, well, have you had, have you like gone to them? And the guy's like, no, I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. And he's like, so you don't actually have any experience with these guys? And he's like, no, never will I. They're a bunch of swindlers. And he's like, so you're criticizing people. You have no experience. Kind of goes back to that same knowledge thing again. Fun fact.

[Graham Donaldson]

And it is one of the guys that puts. That is a witness against Socrates in his trial. He's one of the guys that brings the court case against Socrates.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Really? Oh, that's sad.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Socrates even try to include him.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, he's kind of a jerk to him right now though. He's like undermining everything he says, yeah, a little bit.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I guess that's true. And then he says, he asks him, okay, what about this famous virtuous guy? You know about him, right? And the guy's like, yeah, I know about him. He's like, he had a couple sons. Yeah, he's like, he had great sons. They could ride horseback, they could throw spears. They were great wrestlers. They were like all good at all these things. And he's like, okay, but have you ever heard anybody say that they were virtuous the same that their dad was? The guy's like, no, not really. They're really talented. They had a lot of like, skills, but they weren't virtuous. And he's like, okay, fair. What about this other famous guy? He had great kids. He was really virtuous. He would have taught it himself if he could. And he also had enough money to have them taught virtue, and he probably wanted that. And the guy's like, yeah, that's probably true.

[Graham Donaldson]

He goes, okay, but why are his kids dirtbags?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, why has no one ever said anything about those kids at all? And he's like, okay, fair point. So he goes, okay, there's no disciples, there's no teachers. Virtue is not taught, therefore it can't be knowledge. And they're like, well, crap, we are to the same spot again. And he goes, okay, but. But perhaps there's another guide for action. Like kind of like a wisdom that is not strict knowledge. It's not the same thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

So it can't be taught.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Can't be taught, but it still works. Okay, do you guys have any guesses as to what it might be?

[Thomas Magby]

Graham probably knows.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't. It's. I don't know. Your baby, you're born with it.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Close. He says it is true opinion. What so differentiated from knowledge. And that knowledge is like. Okay, it's like a faith almost. Yes. So if I say I know that there's like a shop up in this other country or up in this other city where you can buy that same rug for 12 bucks cheaper, right? I have been there. I have bought the rug. That is knowledge. I know, right. My buddy, who has never been up to that city, he just kind of knows the economic flow of things. And his opinion, his true opinion is that there's gonna be a shop up there where you can buy the rug for cheaper, right?

[Thomas Magby]

It's true. Because there's actually the rug store.

[AJ Hannenberg]

There's actually a rug store. You can buy the rug. He is correct. Okay, Right. But it is an opinion, Right. He's never been there. He's never seen the rug shop. He's never bought the rug. He does not know this for sure. It is a true opinion, though. That's how they are different, both of those. Would those end up in you buying a cheaper rug if you went to that place?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. So is one more valuable than the other?

[Thomas Magby]

That's tougher. Wouldn't you rather have firsthand knowledge of all these things?

[AJ Hannenberg]

But I wouldn't change what you like.

[Thomas Magby]

The outcome is the same.

[AJ Hannenberg]

The outcome is exactly the same. And this is Socrates's point. He's like, I will give you that knowledge is better because it's anchored. True opinions tend to, like, flitter away because they're not anchored by any real, actual experience. But Socrates points out, in the real thick of things, as far as telling you how to act in the world, they're the same.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're the same.

[AJ Hannenberg]

It's exactly the same. And a virtue isn't knowledge, because it's certainly not taught, but it's wisdom because it tells us how to act and how to use all these goods and get the goods that are profitable to us. It must just be true opinion.

[Graham Donaldson]

So how does a true opinion get to us? Who's our buddy that knows about the rug store?

[AJ Hannenberg]

So his thought is that it's very much like people who are divine, like the oracles who just. You walk up and they tell you, this is what's going to happen in your life. You are going to do this. This is going to happen. This is where you're going to go. They don't know. They don't know for sure. But their true opinions, and they come to us from the divine. Now, their definition of the divine is Very different than what ours was. But for them, much of the divine comes entirely unbidden from the skies. Right and true opinions are like this. They do not come from knowledge, they are not taught, they are just opinions.

[Graham Donaldson]

Poets, man.

[AJ Hannenberg]

The poets, exactly. They come kind of from nowhere. And this is the thing that is our guide in the world. And so the people who are virtuous are like the divine because their virtues, their guide for their action, comes as a gift from the gods. And therefore virtue, no, cannot be taught. It does come by nature, but kind of like a divine nature. And that's why we say of virtuous people that they are divine.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is this the same thing as Lewis's stable sentiments?

[AJ Hannenberg]

Explain.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's not maybe something you can come to with a logical syllogism, it's not something that you can teach, but it is a good thing in and of itself. And it's like when you see it in other people, you admire it when you. And. And it does have utility in that it does make you happier and it makes situations better, but you can't necessarily sort of teach it. It's just, it's. They are true opinions about propriety.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So you would say that stable sentiments cannot be taught.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know. I was just. I mean, I don't want you to Socrates me, but this is exactly what.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I want to do is I want to find out how. How right he is. And this is why I asked earlier if virtue was a thing that could be taught.

[Graham Donaldson]

I think so.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Is it. Is it a knowledge?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, I don't think. I think he's right in this and saying that it is ultimately it's a thing you take on faith. You take you. It's like it is the right opinion. It's like the humanity from its outset has said that the. No, the nobility, the noble and gallant thing to do is to be virtuous in life. And if you're really wanting to get like modern with it and like really break it down to its logical thing, you're not going to get to a conclusion. But like, is that what teaching.

[Thomas Magby]

I guess I've. Because we say whether it can be taught or whether it's a practice. Does taught just mean I can talk, I speak about it and that's how it's transmitted?

[AJ Hannenberg]

I don't think so. I think that's what Socrates means. Oh, because he differentiates between that and practice.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, he means that in the way that what he's done with the slave with the math, that's what he means. Oh, fair and you can't do that with virtue.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Why not? Like, you can talk people through their. We're doing this right now.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So I could teach you what virtue is, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're actually gonna follow that.

[Thomas Magby]

Maybe, but I would have it in my mind the next time I'm faced with something like that would not be.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, no. But think of if you were Talking to a 15 year old and you're showing them the, the square on the ground, like when you double it, they're gonna like. The right answer is that the spare has now been doubled.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

But if you talk to a 15 year old and you say the right thing to do is to be obedient to the authorities that you've been placed under, they're not gonna, they're gonna say like, yeah, but these are all the exceptions when. I'm not going to do that. And then if you say, but those are the. That's not what you should be doing, they're gonna say, says who?

[Thomas Magby]

But what's the difference with. When you read Sir Gawain and you reach this conclusion about, we try our best, but we don't reach perfection. But we're still doing our best. Right. You have taught them a moral thing in that by talking through that book, which I know from talking to students has stuck with them. The story matters to them. It's something they return to. They think about in their lives as they come to situations. Didn't you teach them virtue?

[Graham Donaldson]

I've taught them that the book holds that opinion. The truth. That's not true. Yes, it is.

[Thomas Magby]

No.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, I also think the book is.

[Thomas Magby]

Because the book is true.

[Graham Donaldson]

The book is. I. Well, I mean, the book is. The book has the true opinion. The book does not give you the logical reason as to why it's right to do it. Just tell. It's just giving an example of the rightness of it.

[Thomas Magby]

You taught the book which had the. More the philosophical lesson which sticks with the.

[Graham Donaldson]

So I've not taught them virtue. I taught them that Sir Gawain the Green Knight has a true opinion.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. Which they either ascribe to or not or don't.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. I haven't taught them the Eidos itself. I haven't taught them the form of virtue. I've showed them that this book has a true opinion about virtue.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So your opinion is that all virtues. So you agree with Socrates?

[Graham Donaldson]

I do agree with Socrates in this one. I don't think you can teach virtue. I think it's you at some point you need to sort of accept that this is. That this is the. The give, this is the givenness of the world. Is that like you there. You're not you. You can. It's a difference between, like, being taught and being convinced. You can convince a student that this is right. But like when Socrates says, teach it to me, he wants the form of things. And I don't think we can see the form of things until we see. Well, until we see Christ.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So you disagree. And this is where I think maybe finally this episode is actually coming into play. Immanuel Kant's groundwork for the metaphysics of morals, the form of virtue, is that I can will. That anyone in my situation would do the exact same thing. That's it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe. I don't know. I have to go. I have my. I don't have the faculty. The facility with Kant that you do. I'd have to think about it.

[AJ Hannenberg]

So. So his. His point is that, like, if. If I can't. The. The. What is it? The prime directive? The. He had some. Some word then.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like not interfere with alien races.

[Thomas Magby]

Exactly right.

[AJ Hannenberg]

That's my moral. Well, I mean, yes, there's that. But what was it called? The. He had some word for it. The. But his point is that the very form of Richard.

[Thomas Magby]

Categorical, imperial, categorical category there it is.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Not the prime directive.

[Thomas Magby]

That's incredible.

[AJ Hannenberg]

That was so close. Is that if I can will that every man should do the same. In my situation, people were screaming at.

[Thomas Magby]

The radio, make it so.

[AJ Hannenberg]

That is the if I can, if I can, if I can will that everyone should make it so, then. Then that is the form of virtue.

[Thomas Magby]

Thanks.

[AJ Hannenberg]

And so your fact is, or your thought, like, I think there is that so we can have the form. And I actually kind of agree with Immanuel Kant on that, that if we're talking about what the form of virtue, or at least moral conduct is, there's that. We also have the definition from Aristotle that I have Googled, that is virtue is a mean or average between deficiency and excess. It's a state of character that allows a person to act well and do their own work well. And if Kant were to weigh in on this, he would say and will that everyone should do the same. In that situation, I think Plato would add that it was profitable. This is a concept you can teach. But I think you would go further to say that I can show that to a kid. I cannot convince him to do it. And the actual doing is the virtue. And I think Scripture would probably weigh in on the same Right. People who hear the word versus doers of the word. I can have a kid hear this all day long. Doesn't mean he's actually gonna do it.

[Thomas Magby]

You think virtue and salvation are the same? Like, that's interesting.

[AJ Hannenberg]

I think, and here's my postulate, is that I think I'm gonna actually agree with what you said earlier. I think it is a combination of the two. I think there is a teaching element for exactly what virtue is. So for example, hearing that Sir Gawain like, yeah, he wasn't perfect, but gosh, he did pretty dang good. And there is an allowance for that.

[Graham Donaldson]

And he loved it. He loved goodness.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yes. That's in the moral realm. Like you can love goodness and screw up a little bit and still love goodness and not hate yourself for it. That is a moral concept that can be taught to students. That is an advancement versus like. Or even the example of do unto others as they would be, as you would have done unto you is better than don't do to others what you don't want to do to you. Right. That is a moral advancement, a different concept that is better. So in that sense that can be taught. But I also believe it is imbued by practice. And this was your point. Like I can give all that to a kid, but if he doesn't actually ever go through hardship or experience virtue delivering the profit that Plato said would come or bring health or wealth or happiness or a better life. And that is what virtue should do to everyone who practices it, is that. I mean, even if your circumstances are bad, you should end a happy person. Right? That is kind of where virtue ends it. There is a practice element. And I think that's why Socrates never saw any teachers of virtue is that it's a two step thing. I can give you the form of it, I can tell you what virtue is. I can list some of the stable sentiments up on the board. But for a kid to actually work those into his own life takes practice. And this is what Aristotle said. He said it can be taught. And the way that we teach it is by making them do the thing in small ways before they have to do the thing in big ways. So give them little pieces of ways to be courageous right before they have to go to war. Make them go talk to a girl they're scared of right or make them own up to something they did wrong. Because eventually they will have to be courageous in a much bigger situation. And having practice of doing that again and again and again will imbue in them the virtue that you want later. That's just really hard to do as a teacher. And a program to actually work that into a kid either looks like parenting, which is hard, or it looks like weird psychological manipulation.

[Thomas Magby]

Isn't this the whole classical education thing of, like, teaching virtue? Like, isn't that pretty core to the movement?

[AJ Hannenberg]

And that's the weird thing about it, is a lot of schools claim to do this. And I think one of the ways that we do it is by just being hard. Like, we have hard classes.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[AJ Hannenberg]

And that makes kids stick to it. And it does, in a way.

[Graham Donaldson]

And it ungrounds. It unearths problems that we had then we as an institution have to get into and deal with. And then if the school is in, the student, the school is smart. They're, like, making the kid own up to cheating or to whatever and having to be brave and taking consequences.

[AJ Hannenberg]

And so I think the classical school is much better at the one half of this, which is the knowledge portion. We're really good at saying, here are the seven virtues, here are the stable sentiments, here's. I could maybe even throw some content there if I wanted to. I could give them Aristotle's definition of virtue. I can say, here is what the smarts, the greats have said virtue is. Right. That's the. Maybe the dialectic half, the mythos half is do it. I mean, this isn't a great example. Like, that's not really dialectic and mythos. But it's the. It's like the teaching versus the practice. The practice half we are not as good at. And if rigor is the only way we do that, that's not great. Right.

[Thomas Magby]

I think you would say that that's outside the school's responsibilities. Like, if parenting is your example, I don't want a teacher being the parent. I want the parent being the parent. Right.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. But there are ways that we can. And it doesn't just have to be rigor. I'm sorry. This could become like a weird soapbox on classical education. But, like, you can have dances where the girls and the guys should dance together, where you have slow couples dances. It's not a bad thing. It's a place to practice bravery and point out that that's what the kid is maybe doing. Give them chances to do it. The more chances we give, the more real stakes we give the kids, the more virtue we actually teach. If we remove all of those stakes, as in get rid of the senior thesis program, there's no virtue taught. Or at least it's only half the process that's where after reading this, I kind of landed. I think Plato is wrong, that Socrates is wrong. It's not just true opinion. Yes, it can be taught in form. It also has to be taught in practice, which is hard. And so you don't often see a whole lot of teachers that can do it.

[Thomas Magby]

Graham, I want you to tear it apart.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah, tell me I'm wrong.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm good. I think that's great. I still posit that at some point the student needs to. I mean, they're convinced. They may be convinced of virtue by being forced to do it in little ways and then they see it's good for them is not the same thing as, like, they've been taught it, like, they've been convinced by it. Maybe this is a difference with a distinction, without a difference. But I think you're right. But I do think that for each and every individual person who is going to eventually be someone called virtuous, they eventually, they have to sort of somehow fall in love with virtue itself, with the code. And, but, and the falling in love with the code is not done purely by like an analytical teaching. But there. It's some. It's. It's like the same kind of way that you. It's like a faith. It's like, it's like a.

[AJ Hannenberg]

It's like a faith or a falling.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's like a falling in love. Like, your mind is of course convinced of the rightness of this thing, but you are. Your will is also moved towards that thing and you make the decision to go and do it. And so, like, to be good, you have to love good. You can't just like, be taught what good is. So.

[AJ Hannenberg]

And I think pieces of that come from practicing it. Yes. Like, it's just, I think part of growing up and knowing that that's there and there are kids who can be taught it and give and have opportunities to practice it, and it never actually worms its way in.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Milton says that this is. If when you do that, when you are not just when you know the good thing, but you add deeds to your knowledge, answerable you are, you then carry the paradise within within you. And that's sort of the end of Paradise Lost is that you've. You've, you know the good and you. And you practice virtue. And now you, you, even though you're kicked out of the garden, the garden's still inside of you.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And so that's that. And that's kind of. Yeah. Where I fall in it.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah. I feel much more comfortable saying virtue is Something that is taught via both knowledge and practice. And it's hard and long and complicated.

[Graham Donaldson]

Beast was right at the beginning.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, you said the exact same thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

But I just agree with you.

[Thomas Magby]

Cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

Because you had a. You had a true opinion.

[Thomas Magby]

How could it be otherwise?

[AJ Hannenberg]

I feel much more comfortable saying that than I do saying. It's just lucky. True opinions given by the gods like that seems like a real cheapskate way out of it. You know what I mean?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know. I think it's the same thing.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, interesting. Really?

[Graham Donaldson]

Let's not get into it.

[Thomas Magby]

Let's do it in the in between. I want to talk about that.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Well, this has been classical studies.

[Thomas Magby]

Wrap it up so we can do the in between. I want to talk about this.

[AJ Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, this has been classical studies. No, my name is Graham Donaldson. I need to get my wits about me. I need to get my wits about me because apparently they're coming for me in the in between. We do in betweens. And if you're a Patreon subscriber, you can listen to Thomas and AJ Gang up on me in the in between every time. You can email us at the guys@classical stuff.net. you can tweet at us, wherein I will once a quarter tweet back. And you can find us on Patreon, where we have monthly AMAs in between episodes and other little goodies and apparently, like Hulk Hogan merchandise, it's the thing you talked about.

[Thomas Magby]

That was a good ama.

[Graham Donaldson]

That was a good ama.

[AJ Hannenberg]

That was a good ama.

[Graham Donaldson]

Thanks for the question, thanks for listening, and go practice virtue and we'll see you next week. Bye.