268: Hamlet and Socrates and Death

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know – Episode 268: Hamlet and Socrates and Death

Release Date: October 8, 2024

In Episode 268 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts Thomas Magbee, AJ Henenberg, and Graham Donaldson delve deep into the contrasting perspectives on death as portrayed by two iconic figures: Socrates and Hamlet. This episode intricately explores philosophical frameworks, societal motivations, and the impact of beliefs about the afterlife on human happiness and behavior.

1. Introduction and Setup [00:07 – 01:04]

The episode begins with the hosts engaging in light-hearted banter about Graham Donaldson’s recent bout with a minor illness, humorously referring to his persistent cough as a "fourth co-host." This casual exchange sets a warm and approachable tone for the episode.

2. Genesis of the Episode: Courses and Student Insights [01:04 – 05:33]

Graham explains that the episode was inspired by his interactions during a class on Plato's Republic. While discussing various forms of government—aristocracy, timocracy, oligarchy, democracy, and tyranny—a student (shout-out to Scout Sours) raised an insightful observation: "Everybody in those societies also seems to be motivated by a fear or a thing that they don't want." Specifically, she noted that aristocrats are driven by "the fear of judgment of the gods."

3. Socrates’s Perspective on Death [05:33 – 15:18]

Graham transitions to Socrates’s views on death as depicted in Plato’s Apology. Socrates presents a compelling defense against the fear of death, arguing that it is either:

1. Nothingness: Comparable to a deep, dreamless sleep, which he likens to "a wondrous gain" (07:55).
2. Migration of the Soul: A journey to another realm where he could continue his pursuit of wisdom and justice.

Socrates maintains that fearing death is irrational because it assumes knowledge about something inherently unknown. Instead, he embraces death with calm acceptance, believing that his virtuous life ensures that death cannot be harmful to him.

Notable Quote:

"To fear death, men, is in fact nothing other than to seem to be wise, but not to be so." – Socrates (08:06)

4. Hamlet’s Perspective on Death [15:18 – 50:16]

In stark contrast, Hamlet's contemplation of death is encapsulated in his famous "To be or not to be" soliloquy. Hamlet grapples with the uncertainty of the afterlife, dubbing it "the undiscovered country," which instills a profound fear and paralysis in him.

He questions the allure of ending his sufferings through death but is hindered by the dread of the unknown consequences that death may bring. This fear leads him to endure his "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" rather than take a definitive action.

Notable Quote:

"Thus conscience does make cowards of us all." – Hamlet (50:16)

5. Comparing Socrates and Hamlet [50:16 – 58:59]

The hosts engage in a nuanced comparison between Socrates and Hamlet:

• Socrates:

  • Clear Framework: Believes in a structured afterlife governed by divine justice.
  • Mission-Driven: Feels compelled by a divine mission to seek and promote virtue.
  • Calm Acceptance: Faces death without fear, grounded in his belief that his actions are inherently good.

• Hamlet:

  • Indecision and Overthinking: Lacks a clear framework or mission, leading to anxiety and inaction.
  • Fear of the Unknown: Haunted by uncertainties about the afterlife, which paralyzes his ability to act.
  • Despairing Outlook: Views life as filled with injustice and suffering without a clear path to purpose or resolution.

Graham posits that while both characters are intellectual and perceptive, Socrates’s structured belief system equips him to face death with equanimity, whereas Hamlet’s existential uncertainty traps him in a cycle of despair and inaction.

6. The Role of Afterlife Beliefs in Classical and Modern Education [58:59 – End]

The discussion shifts to the implications of these perspectives on education and modern society. David Hicks's critique is examined, where he asserts that contemporary education lacks a robust framework regarding the afterlife, which is essential for fostering virtue and meaningful action.

The hosts argue that without a metaphysical belief in an afterlife or a system of ultimate justice, individuals may experience heightened anxiety and diminished motivation to act virtuously. They emphasize that a belief in an afterlife or a higher moral order provides a sense of purpose and accountability that is crucial for personal and societal well-being.

Notable Quote:

"If you have some sort of sense that there is justice in the world, in the universe that matters and all the bad will one day be brought to justice and all the good will be held up and said, that this is good is a tremendously liberating thing." – Graham Donaldson (57:03)

7. Final Reflections and Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on how modern society tends to mirror Hamlet's existential angst rather than Socrates's serene acceptance. The hosts advocate for re-establishing a metaphysical framework that underscores the significance of virtuous living, akin to classical education's emphasis on virtue as an end in itself rather than solely as a means to an afterlife.

Thomas wraps up by encouraging listeners to engage with their spiritual and philosophical beliefs to cultivate a balanced and purposeful approach to life and death.

Closing Quote:

"The wise man is the jolly one, dispensing wisdom and experiencing the best of life all the time." – AJ Henenberg (43:13)

---

This episode offers a profound exploration of how differing beliefs about death can shape one's approach to life, virtue, and action. By juxtaposing Socrates’s philosophical clarity with Hamlet’s existential turmoil, the hosts illuminate the enduring relevance of classical philosophy in addressing modern-day anxieties and the quest for meaning.

For more insights and discussions, visit classicalstuff.net or follow them on Twitter at @classicalstuff. Support the podcast on Patreon at patreon.com/classicalstuff and reach out via email at [e-mail].

Transcript

[Thomas Magbee]

Hello and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know, a podcast about the classical world, books and philosophy. My name is Thomas Magbee. I'm joined, as always, by Mr. AJ Henenberg.

[AJ Henenberg]

That's me.

[Thomas Magbee]

And Mr. Graham Donaldson.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's me.

[Thomas Magbee]

Our fourth co host. AJ's cough. It will be a hacking addition to our discussion.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess the fourth co host is like the. The whatever bacterial infection is in his lungs.

[Thomas Magbee]

The worst. That is really unpleasant. Thankfully you all have survived all that bacterial infection. You've made it through.

[Graham Donaldson]

All we can say is so far.

[Thomas Magbee]

You didn't get taken out by it.

[Graham Donaldson]

I did not. I thought I was, but then I was.

[AJ Henenberg]

Did you have like a couple of.

[Graham Donaldson]

Days where you had a couple of days? I took some. I was feeling like maybe, and then I was. I took a maintenance day and then two maintenance days and then I felt better.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

But I didn't get it in the full.

[Thomas Magbee]

A maintenance day is not the same as a sick day.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess it is, but it's more like I'm not so sick, but it was like, I'm feeling it and if I push myself, I was gonna get it. So I guess it's the same thing.

[Thomas Magbee]

Well, glad you avoided it. Today's episode is led by Graham. So your brief interaction with being slightly ill made you consider death more seriously?

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, it was. The genesis of this episode was in one of our classes, we're reading the Apology of Socrates. We just finished it. And that's where Socrates is standing up in court going, and he's going to be put to death. And we have a whole episode on the Apology of Socrates from like a couple years ago. And. And then a student asked. We were then moved into Plato's Republic where we were talking about the Great Society. And the Great Society, according to Plato, is the society that is run by the virtuous, the aristocracy who love the good and they run society. And we go through this class and I sort of chart through all the different societies that exist. The aristocrats, the timocrats, the oligarchs, the democrats, and then the tyrants. And I talk about like, you know, it's the rule of the good, and then it's the rule of the honorable, and it's the rule of the rich, Then it's the rule of the free loving, and then you sort of do the whole thing. We put the charts. And a student asked a very good question and she raised her hand. SCOUT SOURS so shout out to you. She asked a great question. And so I'm going to immortalize her in this episode. And she said, I can't remember the. I won't do the fullness of the question because it's more pertinent to the class. But the essence of the comment was that everybody in those societies also seems to be motivated by a fear or a thing that they don't want. And she made reference to the fact that the aristocratic society was motivated by the fear of judgment of the gods. And then the Tim. And then I was like, that's. That is brilliant. That is a cool insight I've never thought about before. And we haven't yet had time to go through it in the class. But as I've been thinking about it, we could probably do it right. The Timocrats are. They are ruled by a fear.

[AJ Henenberg]

Who are the Timocrats?

[Graham Donaldson]

They are the. The honorable honor loving.

[AJ Henenberg]

Okay, so it's usually the military is the one that kind of.

[Graham Donaldson]

But they're the ones that like, they. So if they were. If you said to them, you can either really love virtue or just have everybody think you really love virtue, they would say, I don't see a difference. Whereas if you went to the Aristocrats and said you could really love virtue or just appear to love virtue, they would say, that's a huge difference. I really want to love virtue. It's like that kind of thing. So the Timocrats, they are ruled by a fear of.

[AJ Henenberg]

So like they're the Romans. It's an honor society.

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly. They're ruled by a fear of like, maybe, you know, disgrace or dishonor or. Or losing face, that kind of thing. And then the oligarchs are ruled by a fear of losing their material possessions. A. The Democrats are ruled by a fear of being limited in their appetites.

[AJ Henenberg]

So help out those who don't know the terms. Oligarchs are the.

[Graham Donaldson]

Those who love money, okay.

[AJ Henenberg]

Ruled by the cash.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're ruled by the rich. It's the rule of the rich.

[AJ Henenberg]

Democrats is the rule of the people.

[Graham Donaldson]

And they are ruled by their desire to want to have optionality, to indulge in all things.

[AJ Henenberg]

Okay?

[Graham Donaldson]

And then the tyrants are the rule of the worst anyway. So the point is not really to think about all of. All of the. The things that they hate. Although that's kind of an interesting thought. But it was Herc statement where she said, the Aristocrats, what keeps them good is a fear of judgment that they are. They are worried that one day they are going to be judged by the gods. And I was like, that is absolutely fascinating. So the. What I want to be doing for today's podcast is I want to look at Socrates's statements about death where he says death isn't that big a deal. And then I want to look at Hamlet's speech about the undiscovered country and where death is a massive deal. And my thesis, so it's like a hypothesis for this episode is that having a. I. It doesn't have to be a specific framework of death, but having some sort of sense that there is an immaterial and out of time element of our existence that interacts with our time and material element of existence and that those two things are related ends up giving you a freedom and gives you kind of a levity to your life. Whereas either if you're just purely materialist and you think that this life is the only thing, or if you are, if you. Or.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or if you don't have any. If you are. If you doubt that there is a immaterial world, it is actually going to end up being a, like a drag on your life. It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna halt your action and it's gonna give you a tremendous amount of worry and anxiety. That's kind of the thesis that makes sense.

[Thomas Magbee]

Sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm framing it as like a classical view of death and a modern view of death and using Aristotle to highlight the classical view and Hamlet to highlight the modern one.

[AJ Henenberg]

The modern view is only material.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, either only material or I just can't be sure. And in my unsureness, it ends up stopping action and then I am anxious and sad in life. Okay. The other genesis of this is we've talked about maybe in the podcast before in our happiness episode about Arthur Brooks. Arthur Brooks did that sort of famous study of what makes people happy. And the three things he found was one, you have like, people who care about you, friends and family who actually are. Who care about your life. You have meaningful work to do in this life. People who are counting on you. Your. Your. Your actions are. Are like ne. You have a feeling that actions are necessary. And then the last one, the ones that people tend to po. Is you have a framework for death. You have a framework for what happens after you die. Now, Arthur Brooks says that framework can be anything as long as you have an operating framework. And I don't know if it can be anything. And I actually think that the Hamlet framework actually doesn't help you be happy. It sort of hurts. Okay, that's kind of the, the, the. So let's look at it. So Aristotle, when he is going. When he is on trial, he is put on trial. And they said, they're basically saying, like, if you don't shape up and sort of toe the line of Athens society and stop frigging annoying people, we're going to kill you. And hoping that this is. That the fear of death is going to sort of keep Socrates in line. Socrates is going to stop annoying people like he did our last episode.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's true.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Socrates gives a defense as to why death is actually nothing, not a thing to be feared. I want. So do either of you guys remember it from maybe episodes past? Socrates's reasons why we should not fear death.

[AJ Henenberg]

Isn't it essentially that we haven't experienced it and so we don't know if it's bad or good and therefore it could be good. And so there's no reason to fear that which we do not know.

[Graham Donaldson]

Kind of. Yeah, it's very close.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's like. Yeah. So if there's an afterlife. Tell me. Yeah, and you've done well in life, then you're rewarded in death. So. So that's good. And if there's no awareness after death, then you've lived a good life going into it. And so what's the point of the fear of it?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. He says it's either a couple of. Well, let's read it. Socrates says you would consider it shameful if you stationed me in a military position and said, guard this wall and I abandoned it. You would say that's shameful. And Socrates says he. He is convinced that he has been asked by God to do his Socratic mission of trying to seek out the good in the city. And so he says this terrible that would be. And truly, then someone might justly bring me into a law court saying that I do not believe that there are gods, since I would be disobeying the divination and fearing death and supposing that I am wise when I am not. For to fear death, men, is in fact nothing other than to seem to be wise, but not to be so. For it is to seem to know what one does not know. No one knows whether death does not even happen to be the greatest of all goods. So point AJ for the human being. But people fear it as though they knew well that it is the greatest of all evils. And how is this not that reproachable ignorance of supposing that one knows what one does not know? But I, man, am perhaps distinguished from the many human beings also here in this and if I were to say that I am wiser than anyone in anything, it would be in this, that since I do not know sufficiently about the things in Hades, so also I suppose that I do not know, but I know that it is bad and shameful to do injustice and to disobey one's better, whether God or human being. So he says, so I'm not going to fear death because I don't know if that's something I should fear. And I'm not going to fear death by doing something. But if doing injustice keeps me from death, I know doing injustice is the wrong thing. And I don't know that dying doesn't happen to necessarily be a good thing. Therefore I'm not going to fear death. And then he says, let's see where he says. And then later on he, at the end when he's been condemned to death, Socrates recounts and he says, yeah, let's, let's look at he now he's been condemned to death and he's going to die. He says this, Let us also think in the following way, how great a hope there is that it death is good. Now, being dead is either of two things. For either it is like being nothing, and the dead man has no perception of anything. Or else in accordance with the things that are said, it happens to be a sort of change and migration of the soul from the place here to another place. Who says death's either one of two things? It's a great nothing, or it is some sort of change from here to another place. The soul is changing from here to another place. And if in fact there is no perception, but it is like a sleep in which the sleeper has no dream at all, death would be a wondrous gain. For I suppose that if someone had to select the night in which he slept so soundly that he did not even dream and had to compare the other nights and days of his own life with that night, and then had to say on consideration how many days and nights in his own life he had lived better and more pleasantly than that night. Then I suppose that the great King Cyrus himself, not to mention some private man, would discover that there that they are easy to count in comparison with the other days and nights. So he's saying, like, imagine like the best sleep you've ever had, the awesomest sleep, you didn't have bad dreams and it was amazing. And if you thought about like all the days that you've lived and you can compare it to that amazing sleep that you had, yeah, maybe some days Would be better than that, sleep. But no one's going to be like, man, I fraking hate sleeping. Great, everyone's going to be, you know, at some point people be like, having a great night's sleep is pretty awesome. And if, and if death is like that, that's then not so bad, says Socrates. Or so if death is something like this, I at least say it is a gain for all time appears in this way indeed to be nothing more than one night. On the other hand, if death is like a journey from here to another place, and if the things that are said are true, that in fact all the dead are there, then what greater good could there be than this? Judges. For if one who arrives in Hades, released from these here who claim to be judges, will find those who are judges, in truth, the very ones who are said to give judgment there. Minos and Ramidanthus and Achus and Triptolemus and those of the other demigods who turned out to be just in their own lives. Would this journey be a paltry one? Or again to associate with Orpheus and Musaeus and Hesiod and Homer? How much would any of you give? For I am willing to die many times if these things are true, since especially for myself, spending time there would be wondrous. Or whenever I happened to meet Palamedes and Telamoni and Ajax, or anyone of the ancients who died because of an unjust judgment, I would compare my own experience with theirs, and I suppose it would not be unpleasant. And certainly the greatest thing is that I would pass my time examining and searching out among those there, just as I do to those here who among them is wise and who supposes he is but is not? How much would one give judges to examine him who led the great army against Troy, or Odysseus or Sisyphus, or the thousand others whom one might mention, both men and women, to converse and associate with them, and to examine them, there would be inconceivable happiness. Certainly there those surely do not kill on this account, for those there are happier than those here, not only in other things, but also in that they are immortal henceforth for the rest of time at least, if the things that are said are in fact true. That's a very important little clause that I want to say at the end that Socrates gives this whole thing and he says in that many are. Mom. That if. If at least the things that are said are in fact true, the things that are said mean are about the afterlife. Yes. That when you die there is Some kind of movement of the soul. And you are in a place where you are still you and you are mortal, and you are in some kind of place where the unis continues on. I think that's kind of an important thing that whoever you are continues on and the. And your temperament and attitude and disposition can sort of continue. And then, then Sartis famously ends the dialogue with, it's now time for me to go away, I to die and you to live. Which of us goes to a better thing is unclear to everyone except to God, which is such an. Ah, he's so good in that. Yes, there's a mic drop. So Socrates gives this famous. This famous defense that death is not a thing to be feared. And the reasons he give are if it's just sort of like a fading into sleep, sounds not so bad, sounds.

[AJ Henenberg]

Great, sounds a good night.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or if the things that we have been told are true, that we continue on in some capacity, then I'm going to continue on in the same way that I'm going to continue on in my pursuit of doing no injustice. I want to live seeking out. I don't want to by accident or on purpose do anything unjust because unjust things are bad for the soul, says Socrates. And you telling me to stop talking about philosophy is an injustice, and I'm not going to do it. God's told me to do it, says Socrates, therefore I'm cool dying for it. And everyone's like, stop being such an idiot. And so Socrates has this, like, dogged determination and to continue to do no injustice. And he has a vision of the afterlife that, that says he is going to continue on this way. And because of that, Socrates doesn't have this sort of fear or anxiety or worry about death. And in fact, it gives structure to his life and the life, the structure that it gives us life is one of sort of integrity, courage, a framework for how to behave. He knows what he needs to do when he wakes up, and that is to not do injustice and to seek out the good in the city. He has a mission that he thinks is divinely given, which is to be like an annoying fly that is supposed to waken up the horse of Athens, the famous gadfly analogy. And he's not going to be. He's not going to let the fear of death sort of keep him from this. Now, whenever I've taught this, students have pointed out that Socrates, there's a. There is a third option about death, and it's the one that Macy F. Remembers from his years of teaching Crime and Punishment. It's the option that. Oh shoot. Svitrugalov gives about death. Remember Siddrigalov's vision of death?

[AJ Henenberg]

It's a dark place full of spiders. Like a dark room.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. So now, and Sid Gailov says, I'm haunted by the idea that death is just a dark room full of spiders. And that ends up making sort of filling spider Gail off with dread and fear. How come Socrates doesn't have that vision of it?

[AJ Henenberg]

Maybe it's not in his cultural ethos.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, that would be. My guess is that it's not. It's. That's sort of like Sudor Gailov sort of invented that idea.

[AJ Henenberg]

The funny thing is it lines right up with what the Mesopotamians believed is.

[Graham Donaldson]

That death is like a place full of spiders.

[AJ Henenberg]

Not quite a place full of spiders, but what they believed in. At least. In the Epic of Gilgamesh, the underworld is described as a place where you crouch in a dark cave all day and you're, you have meals of clay. It's like they call it the house of dust. You basically go down, eat dirt. You're ruled by these weird wing like creatures. You're naked, it's dark, it sucks.

[Graham Donaldson]

Everybody goes there. Yeah, there's no, there's no. What about the virtuous people?

[AJ Henenberg]

I think really your only hope is to become somehow one of the immortals, which is what drives Gilgamesh mad.

[Graham Donaldson]

So there is a hope.

[AJ Henenberg]

Like a.

[Thomas Magbee]

Very small number of people.

[AJ Henenberg]

A very, very small number of people. Gilgamesh does eventually make it. Not in the book, but according to later myths, he eventually becomes one of the men of like in the stars. His buddy does not. The only other guy that they know of that this happens for who is not a God is essentially that world's Noah Utnapishtim. To make somebody not go to this place, basically it needs a worldwide flood. That was the only instance where it happened. Everybody else goes there. That's it. Like there's one guy and then Gilgamesh, I think somehow does it eventually, but not, not in the epic village mention that he dies.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah. But in the story there's. There. It's a story about wanting to escape that thing.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah, that's, that's why he goes crazy because he's like, I don't want that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, cool. That's interesting. Anyway, so Sir Gila has got that vision of like, of, of sort of this punishment place isn't like the thing.

[Thomas Magbee]

People are concerned about is the like annihilation at death. So even whether it's Reward or punishment. Like consciousness persists.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. But even Socrates is like, if consciousness doesn't persist, it's just kind of looking.

[Thomas Magbee]

Like he's fine with it.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's fine with it. But it's a sort of like, awesome. It's this awesome sleep.

[Thomas Magbee]

You buy this as a framework, like, you think this works?

[Graham Donaldson]

I do. I think so. I think I buy that Socrates is. You did you. You don't need to be scared of it or what? I. Yeah. The thing that I buy with Socrates is when he says, what do I know? I know that doing injustice is bad. What don't I know? I don't really know what death is. It could be a good thing and it could be a bad thing. It could be nothingness. His Socrates says we sort of have two received stories. And this is why. Just thinking about our last episode. About true opinion or about like the hearing of things that have come from other people. What is the true opinion of death? Because that's the thing that we can't. Oh, sorry. For people that are maybe just coming into this episode go maybe listen to last week's episode where we talk about like, can something be taught? What can virtue be taught? Or is. Or is virtue a true opinion? And I'm wondering if, like this idea about death being is the. The. The only. Is like a true opinion. Because we don't really know what it's like to die. But we all. But there are all these. These stories of that there is a. That we have our. What is it? Our in time and material life. And there is an out of time and immaterial place and that those two things are intersected and that the things that we do in our time and material life have some kind of bearing and ramification on the immaterial and out of time. That those two things are together even in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Like, there's. Maybe that's more of a fatalistic story, but there's still. There's a desire and a hope that it's not true and that maybe the flood is going to change it. And there's still the human hope that what we do in this life is meaningful. And Socrates is sort of embodying this. David Hicks in one of his. Who's a classical. I guess he was a classical educator. No, he is now he's a farmer. But he says that.

[Thomas Magbee]

Translator.

[Graham Donaldson]

Translator. He wrote the article that we've talked about in this episode called Can Classical education? Is Classical Education still possible? And he said that one of the presuppositions of classical education, one of the necessary things that you need in order to train up somebody in virtue, which is the goal of classical education is to, is to basically like, bring someone from child to adult, to bring someone into the fullness of human, human existence capacities like knowing things, their behavior, and be basically making people happy by being, making them good. You need to have. One of the, the things that you need is a, is a belief in that, in that there is an afterlife and that your actions on this life are somehow meaningful for the afterlife in the positive or in the negative, that it is supposed to reign in our bad behaviors. A fear of judgment is to reign in our bad behaviors and a hope of continuation of our brain, of our minds and our souls and our body or not our bodies, our minds and our souls and our, our temperament and attitudes and personality will continue on in some place that is not wildly unpleasant that the Greeks had. You know, Plato's not talking about, or Socrates isn't talking about, you know, the plains of Elysium in some sort of like paradise. He's just sort of saying like a holding room where there's a bunch of cool people you can talk to. Like, everyone's just sort of chilling at the DMV and you're, you get to go like, sit down next to Ajax and pick his brains for a little bit until he tells you to leave or whatever. And for Sargies, that sounds pretty great because he likes talking to people. So David Hicks is saying that is a necessary component. You need to have that in place for people to be educated. And the point of his article is he doesn't think that in contemporary modern culture we still have that framework of an afterlife. Therefore classical education is just going to be like techniques and propaganda. I don't know, whatever, like, he talks.

[Thomas Magbee]

About, like, it'll, it will appeal to certain people because it sounds like something ancient.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[Thomas Magbee]

Unique or something.

[Graham Donaldson]

But it's not truly. Yeah. And so I would I look at this and I say Socrates with that framework is happy. He, he does he have the like. Is he taught this? Like, does he, does he know this 100. No. He almost has like a faith in the belief that my actions in the here and now are meaningful. Therefore I am going to live into virtue with knowing that the gods are not going to abandon. Socrates also in the apology says the good man has nothing to fear because, because of that, that belief that like that the gods are not going to. The gods are not going to abandon a good man. A person who loves the code, who loves the good Thing the gods will not abandon. So he has this sort of. That. That sort of framework. Let me see if I can find where it says, I'm not gonna be able to find it anyway. Okay, do I. I can't find it. So that I. That is a very much the sort of. This classical idea. Now, of course, Christianity comes along and says in sort of on top of the classical world, says, here's also the framework. The framework is you. We sort of flesh it out because here is somebody who has come from the other side who comes in and talks about what the kingdom of heaven is and that the kingdom of heaven can start now. And. And it's. It's a relationship And. And faith in Christ and that. And that. And basically like that. That other world begins here and now in our life of faith and in the church. So. So of course, having that kind of framework is. As Christians, that framework is something that sort of is supposed to modulate our life. Right. Okay, let's contrast. I want to contrast that with Hamlet. So Hamlet is this play where Hamlet's is almost too clever about everything. Or as he's not cynical. How. What would you call Hamlet? He's not cynical. He's. He's too dialectic. He's. He's too.

[Thomas Magbee]

He overthinks.

[Graham Donaldson]

He overthinks it. That's what it is, is that he is so overthinking that it brings him to a place where he can't land on a solid ground to be able to build something, to be able to build a structure for his life. And so he doesn't act. So I want to look at Hamlet's famous speech about death. And this is sort of the reason why he's. He's contemplating should he kill his uncle? Should he avenge his father's death? Should he avenge his father's murder by going after the guy who murdered his dad? Should he go and bring a murderer to justice? Should he do this or not? And he doesn't even know if his dad's been murdered because a weird ghost told him. And. And then Sam was sort of saying. And as he's thinking through this, he's like, well, what do. Why do we even do anything? And that's, you know, the famous to be or not to be. So let's. Let's read this speech. And my thesis is. And I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this, is that Hamlet is embodying this overthinkingness when it comes, or he wants assurance of what it is. And until he can get that assurance he doesn't know how to act in this world. Whereas Socrates, with his. Well, it's either one or two things. It's either nothing. It's like sleep, or it's what we've been told our whole life, which sounds pretty good either way. What I do here and now matters. Hamlet does not know if what he does here and now matters. All right, here comes Hamlet holding a skull. Oh, that's later. Here comes Hamlet. To be or not to be. That is the question. Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Or to take up arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them. To die, to sleep, no more. And by a sleep to say we end the heartache and the thousand natural shocks that flushes heir to. Huh. Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep. To sleep, perchance to dream. Ah, there's the rub. For in that sleep of death what dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil must give us pause. There's the respect that makes calamity of so long life. For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, the oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely, the pangs of despised love, the law's delay, the insolence of office and the spurds that patient merit of the unworthy takes, when he himself his quietest make with a bare bodkin? Who would fardel's bear to grunt and sweat under a weary life, but that the dread of something after death, the undiscovered country from whose born no traveler returns, puzzles the will and makes us rather bear those ills we have than fly to others that we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all. And thus the native hue of resolation is sicklied over with the pale cast of thought. And enterprises of great pitch and moment with this regard their currents torn awry and lose the name of action. Okay, conscience makes cowards of all. So what's Hamlet's point? And what. Why? He's like, life kind of sucks. You've got like, bureaucracies and you've got injustice and you've got like, people who kind of make fun of you. And you've got all these sorts of slings and arrows of fortune, and you're at the whims of. Of things going your way and things going against your way. Oh, it's. It is a hard thing to live through life. And there's only one thing that Keeps us doing it and not just throwing ourself off a cliff. And what is it?

[AJ Henenberg]

Fear. Yeah, fear of the unknown. Which is hilarious to me, considering he's talked to a ghost already.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. But it's. It's not just the fear.

[AJ Henenberg]

But the thing is, yeah, Hamlet knows. He knows that there's something after death.

[Graham Donaldson]

But the interesting thing about the ghost is when the ghost talks to him about what's happening, it's not. It does not conform to, like, what.

[AJ Henenberg]

He thought the world was gonna be.

[Graham Donaldson]

It does not conform to what he thought the afterlife was supposed to be. Like, the ghost says, I get let out of hell and I get to wander around, and then I have to go back and. Because I haven't received justice in my. In my lifetime. And it's like, that's not. That's not if. Catholic medieval understandings of life. And so Hamlet's like, you know, maybe. And so Hamlet doesn't know what to think because you've got this ghost coming in and saying all sorts of crazy things. And maybe. Maybe the ghost is a demon sent to tempt him. Maybe the ghost actually is his father and he doesn't know what to think. So it's. I guess my question is, like, why is Hamlet a coward and Socrates brave in the face of death? They're both clever guys. They're both very smart, they're both incredibly intellectual, and they can both, like, see through bs. But why is Hamlet ground to anxious misery? And Socrates has this kind of, like, rise above it all levity when it comes to life and struggle and ultimately death.

[AJ Henenberg]

Can I disagree with. I think it was Hicks. Didn't Hicks say you kind of needed the.

[Graham Donaldson]

You need a framework.

[AJ Henenberg]

You need some sort of afterlife framework.

[Graham Donaldson]

Brooks, Brooks, Brooks, Brooks.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yes. So when I was listening to those two quotes, the thing that stands out to me and the thing that I think is often missed in classical education, we assume that what that framework does for us is provide us, like, a reason to be good or bad. Right. If I'm good, I'll go to heaven. If I'm bad, I'll go to hell. There's that framework for, like, controlling our actions that is necessary for this kind of education. If that's the premise, like, just before you go on.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't think that's what it is.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[AJ Henenberg]

What do you mean? Yeah?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't think. I don't think the premise is, be a good boy, go to heaven. Be a bad boy, go to hell. I don't think that that's what that premise is. Doing okay.

[AJ Henenberg]

Well, I think feels like what Brooks wants.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, Brooks just says people are happy when they kind of like have. Have it solved in their own hearts.

[AJ Henenberg]

Okay. Which is funny because Socrates doesn't. He doesn't know what's coming.

[Graham Donaldson]

He hasn't solved. He's cool with either way. He's cool with either option.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah. That's why Socrates works. Right. But we'll get there.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah. So the point I want to make is that an attitude, and here's what is different to me about these two attitudes, is like, yes, Socrates has it solved, but he doesn't really. He says, I don't know what it is. And to say it I do know what it is, is stupid. I'm not sure what it is. I'm not going to fear the unknown. That's dumb. Hamlet does fear the unknown. He doesn't know what's coming and he's terrified. To me, the difference is that Socrates sees value in his work, in the here and now. He knows virtue is good. He knows what he's doing is valuable. The gods have told him to do it. It is a thing worth doing. And if he gets to keep doing it, great. If he doesn't get to keep doing it because he doesn't exist anymore, fine. He knows that right here what he's doing is valuable. Hamlet seems to view life as an absolute abysmal pit. There is no doing good. The only thing that keeps us going is a fear of the unknown. Like, that's what he thinks is motivating his entire life. For Socrates, there is other things motivating his life. He has a mission. Doesn't matter what comes afterwards. He's doing something valuable. And this is why I don't like the whole. Like, we have heaven and hell as motives for our action. The ancients would have said we do virtue because virtue is good in and of itself, in the here and now, in our life, doesn't matter what comes afterwards. You do virtue because it's good. I think we have somewhat lost that in modern Christian education, saying we have heaven and hell to keep us going. And we forget that virtue is worthwhile in and of itself in the here and now.

[Graham Donaldson]

The sort of pushbacks on that is one. Socrates believes that he has been given a divinely inspired mission. So if he's going to put his cards down on if death is like a nothingness, or if death is what we've heard the stories tell us, he believes that death is what the. He's heard the stories tell us. Like that's he has that if it is. If it just so happens that those stories are all wrong and we just are nothing, he's fine with that. But Socrates believes that there's. That there is a Hades and he's going to it.

[AJ Henenberg]

Okay, but so does Hamlet. Hamlet knows there's something coming after he's talked to a ghost. Yes, he knows there's something.

[Graham Donaldson]

But the thing that Socrates believes is that the. It's not just that virtue is good for the here and now, it's also that it is something that is going to be. He does have more of that. Like if you're a good boy, it is going to go good for you in heaven. And that does motivate it. He. Whereas him for Socrates, whereas Hamlet is not convinced in the value of virtue here or there. Whereas Socrates, you know, is. Is animated by that sense that the gods are not going to be like doing an injustice is wrong and the gods are going to reward you for your justice. Let me find the quote.

[Thomas Magbee]

Because you can imagine a Socrates who is fine with his work in the day to day, knows he's doing something important and feels that it's very valuable and then completely despair at the end of his life because that mission is going away. The point here is that how does he approach death? Right? Is he despairing or is he accepting of it? And it's because he has this kind of. No matter what the outcome is, he's thought through it and has an answer to it. Right. Like isn't that the benefit here?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. Yeah. I think that the. To me the distinction between the two of them is.

[Thomas Magbee]

Socrates doesn't need the answer up front.

[Graham Donaldson]

Socrates doesn't need the answer up front. But Socrates has a, a faith that virtue is going to also profit him after death and that therefore death is a thing that you don't even need to fear. And that gives him this sort of levity in life. Whereas Hamlet doesn't have the faith in the good. And so he, he. He's terrified of the undiscovered country. Sudor Gail off realizes that like his life of doing terrible means that he's like he should be going to the dark room with spiders.

[AJ Henenberg]

Also, it's not very respectful of the spiders. A lot of those guys are great.

[Graham Donaldson]

Spiders are awesome. You are never more than like six feet away from a spider at any time.

[Thomas Magbee]

Terrifying. Does he think he's going there as punishment or he thinks everyone goes to the room with spiders?

[AJ Henenberg]

I don't think it. I think that he thinks either way, either everyone's going there or just he is, but he's going there either way. He thinks he's going because he has done some bad stuff.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's done some pretty bad stuff.

[AJ Henenberg]

He's not a great deal.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm not being able to find where it says that. Ah, here we go. So yeah, so here's where Socrates talks about that nothing bad can happen to a good person. At the end of, at the end of apology he says by you two judges should be of good hope towards death. And you should think that this one thing to be true. That there is nothing bad for a good man, whether living or dead and that the gods are not without care for his troubles. Nor have my problem, my present troubles arisen of their own accord. But it's clear to me now that it is better after all for me to be dead and to have been released from all troubles. So yea, even Socrates has a desire to be released from the troubles of life. But he has this sense that there is nothing bad for a good man. This is also why the sign did not turn me away. So the strong sense that God has sort of told him to do this thing and then he sort of says that his judges are to be worthy of blame because they are not good men. And so yeah, I don't know how much, I don't know how long we're already into this. I think that just the thing that I find fascinating is that there's so much in common between Socrates and Hamlet and thinking about but their different view of death freezes Hamlet and he is so anxious about it that he can't act in this life. And, and Socrates is sort of clear mindedness about, about death even though he doesn't have like the pinpoint answer of what it is but the fact that he kind of has it generally solved. The fact that he sort of says like you know what for being, for being good the gods are not going to, are not going to hate a good person. The God, the, the good man has nothing to fear in front of the gods. Give Socrates kind of this like, like a, like sort of this levy, this sort of blase levee fair attitude. I've always my whole life been attracted to that sort of that, that sort of hand wavy attitude towards death. When I was a little kid there I remember reading the story of. He's an American military, military guy from World War I. They actually ended up naming a frigate after him because he. I'm trying to find his name. Thomas, you can sort of Google as I say the name of frigate after him. And he's known maybe this is gonna get us. I don't know if this is gonna put an E for explicit on this episode, but In World War I, he was commanded by his officers to go charge a. Like, an enemy line. And he turned to his buddies, little comrades who were in the trench, kind of scared about charging the enemy line. He said, come on. No. He's like, let's go, boys. Do you sons of want to live forever? And. And he sort of had that. That was sort of his attitude. He's like, sure, you guys don't want to live forever, do you? And he charged the embankment and took it and ended up winning, like, the Medal of Honor or whatever. And they named. They named a frigate after him. I can't remember his name.

[Thomas Magbee]

I don't see it yet.

[Graham Donaldson]

But for some reason, there was just something about that kind of like.

[Thomas Magbee]

Daniel Daly.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. I think it's. I think it's daily. That kind of like. That. That sort of like, jovial, laughing in the face of death kind of attitude, I've always found to be very attractive. I've always found. Think that that is like, there's something very sort of settled and happy about that. And I think that soccer. Socrates's disposition is the one that we would want to cultivate in our hearts and minds more than we would want to cultivate Hamlet. And I think modern life gears us more towards Hamlet because of the overthinking. Overthinkingness aspect of it. And Socrates is sort of like almost his little simple faith in the stories. His simple faith in the belief in the goodness of God is a thing that ends up giving his life. Sort of like a levity to it. I. I know I often make. I sort of use this meme as a joke, but, you know, the Bell curve meme where, like, you got the. Like, the troglodyte in one side and the sage on the other and the guy in the middle being like. I kind of feel like Hamilton's the guy in the middle being like, no, who knows what death is? It could be all sorts of different things. It's this undiscovered country. It could be all sorts of blah, blah. And then the people on each side are being like, the good man has nothing to fear. Anyway, I know that this is a particularly a topic that AJ thinks about a lot, which is another reason why I kind of suggested it. You look deep, pensive. You either super frigging tired and bored or you're thinking lots of things.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, it's very nice holding In a cough that whole time. Thanks for saying.

[AJ Henenberg]

I am. I am very tired, but I'm thinking two things I have. One's a question. So one question is, do you think that the difference between these two men is less how they feel about death and more the mission they have in life?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, because. No, I know. I don't want to reduce it to that.

[AJ Henenberg]

Well, can I. Can I. Can I explain?

[Graham Donaldson]

You can.

[AJ Henenberg]

So, no. So Socrates has a mission from the gods that he was clearly given from the oracle. Something that is very clearly good to find the wise man, to, like, pull everyone towards virtue. Hamlet has been given a very weird, loose, like, vengeance story from a ghost from hell that he's not even really sure is legitimate, and he's not really sure what's legitimate. And so no wonder the two men are having different ideas about what they should be doing. Right. One is very clear cut and dried. This is a good thing. You can commit your life to it. Hamlet doesn't have anything clear to commit his life to. No wonder he wants out of it. It's kind of a nightmare. And in that way, I think he is very modern. I can buy that their attitude about death has a big piece to do with it. I'm just wondering if this is also a contributor.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I mean, there's. There are things that Hamill should have gone about to do to give himself more assurance. The fact that he wants to figure out if his uncle's a murderer by, like, observing how he reacts to a play is kind of. Is kind of trash, Dude. When he should have, like, gathered people from this from the city to, like, you know, was there any witnesses? Did anybody see this kind of thing? Like, he could have gone about it a little more like police Detective and a little less like High School Musical.

[AJ Henenberg]

Seems like Hamlet always chooses the High School Musical.

[Graham Donaldson]

He does. And so maybe there's something to that. But I. I don't just think, like, if. If Socrates was in Hamlet's context and Hamlet was in Socrates's context, they would flip. Like, I still think if. If Hamlet was in Socrates's context, Hamlet would still be. I don't know what to do. And Socrates, in Hamlet's context, would not have feared dying. He would have tried to figure out what happened to his father, and he would have, you know, like, then, with a series of questions to Polonius, would have come to the conclusion as to what happened.

[AJ Henenberg]

Well, and that's the thing is, I'm not even sure he would do. I think he'd be like, what is death? And Then be like Socrates, who cares?

[Graham Donaldson]

But there's something about what is the.

[AJ Henenberg]

Essence of form, of vengeance?

[Graham Donaldson]

There's something about Socrates's faith. Well, I think it comes down to Socrates says I know that doing that I will. That doing injustice is wrong. I don't know if Socrates. If Hamlet thinks that. I think Hamlet's more in the like. I don't know if there is a thing called justice or if it's just our naked power.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah, Hamlet's all kinds of confused in.

[Graham Donaldson]

All sorts of ways.

[AJ Henenberg]

So. Second thought. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, I was just gonna say that then this comes down to Socrates in a weird way, I would say has a true opinion about death that Hamlet does not. But they both aren't going to be able to have like assurance of what the afterlife is.

[AJ Henenberg]

But Socrates, Hamlet more so than Socrates.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes, but. Yes, exactly. But Socrates has like, what if the reality is to Socrates it's just a dark room full of spiders? I would maybe misogyny wouldn't be miserable. I don't know. He like talked to spiders but ask them questions. What are those questions? But. Or he would just like love observing their natures or something. Yeah, that's more Aristotle. But I guess there's. Maybe it's just that Socrates has such a deep knowledge of who he is that he knows that whatever context he's in, he's going to be fine. But you know, the other question is what if the afterlife is just absolute miserable, like painful torture forever. And that's what. But we don't have. But those aren't the stories we get. Those aren't the. That's.

[AJ Henenberg]

But I think if you're Socrates, that doesn't change what you do now. Like he still has a. He can still do good now. He'd still be virtuous.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anyway, the other thing. Maybe this is an in between episode. The other thing I want to say is I actually think having a framework that says a fear of hell or a hope of heaven is actually a perfectly fine thing to have anyway. But we can talk more. I want to hear your second thing.

[AJ Henenberg]

My second thing is you talk about how a man who approaches death with levity is an attractive thing. I totally agree. I think the jolly sage is attractive in general. So someone who is incredibly wise and smart and knows the ways of the world and experienced the like 60 year old man, even the young man who can. Who can look at death, say I understand what you are still. I'm happy I can understand the world and the motives of man and still I am Happy, I think, and this has always been one of my platforms. I talk to my kid about kids about it every year. That we seem to believe. And I know I've talked about it on the podcast. This is us just rehashing stuff, but we seem to believe that wisdom brings sadness with more, you know, wisdom brings. Brings more sorrow. And I think to an extent that is true. I think with. When you ground it in redemptive history, it flips. I think all of a sudden you can do nothing but be happy, like knowing that the sorrows of man have been solved forever and that you are destined for, you know, provided you're a believer, destined for bliss. I think the only conclusion is a happy one. And so the wise man is the jolly one. And it's a picture. I'm endlessly attracted to the, like, crazy man up on the hillside dispensing wisdom. And he is having the best time of his life all the time. I love that. I love that image. I think the sad sage, the one who is filled with sorrow because he knows the ways of the world. It's a modern idea, and it makes me depressed.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes, I agree. And I, I.

[AJ Henenberg]

It's modern. It's definitely modern.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's definitely a modern idea. And I don't know, maybe it's wrong to ascribe it to Hamlet, but Hamlet sort of seems to have those sort of characteristics that, this, because he doesn't have a settled metaphysics, because he doesn't have a framework of what he doesn't even necessarily believe. If, if justice is the right thing to do, then he. He doesn't have. When actually, like, the real harshness of life comes to him. He doesn't know. He doesn't know how to. How to behave and how to act or how to do courageous things until he's kidnapped by pirates. Being kidnapped by pirates helps put everything into perspective. I think. Problem solved. Maybe. What is. What's writing around up there? Any thoughts?

[AJ Henenberg]

Well, I was just thinking there's a. Sorry to cut you off. There's an Ecclesiastes Bible verse about, you know, with much wisdom comes much sorrow. So I'm just reading the context to see if there's any more, like, oh, I see thing in that. I. I knew it came from somewhere in scripture, but I'm wondering how, like, if that rings true always. That's definitely pre Christ.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't think it rings true always.

[AJ Henenberg]

No.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

What does Hamlet mean when he says conscience?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, that's a great question. That was the other thing I was thinking. As I was reading it. Let's see what we have. Why wouldn't you just stab yourself? Who would bear the sweat and grant and the weary life? But it's the dread of something after death. The undiscovered country for new travel returns puzzles the will and makes us rather bear the ills we have. Thus conscience does make cowards of us. All the text notes is saying that it's meaning, consciousness and knowledge as opposed to like a sense of a conscience of rightness and wrongness.

[Thomas Magbee]

Just like he's, he's wrong on that, right? Like he's, he's wrong to say that thoughts of the afterlife, thoughts of death make cowards of us all.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Makes cowards of him. And he thinks that's everyone. But Socrates is not a coward.

[AJ Henenberg]

And literally everything makes a coward of Hamlet fair.

[Thomas Magbee]

And so. Yes, so I think, I don't know if this is a thing you're getting to, but he's wrong.

[Graham Donaldson]

But the other thing is like, okay, let's say Hamlet for the sake of argument is not virtuous.

[Thomas Magbee]

Tough argument. Yeah, yeah, thanks.

[Graham Donaldson]

And at some level Hamlet knows it. That would give you a fear. If, if, if you are, if you know that you are not virtuous and then the afterlife is one of two things. If it is a place where your actions in time and material time and space do have meaning for out of time and out of space and there is some kind of assessment of your actions and you know that you don't, you do the wrong things and you don't love the good things that would make you scared of death. And, and then, but if it was nothing, if it was a big black nothing and you don't have any sort of faith that doing the right thing now is worth it regardless of whether or not heaven exists or not, then you are completely adrift and lost in what you should be doing now. And that's tremendously like anxiety producing. So like Hamlet really is somebody who needs to be trained in ver. Like he's somebody who needs a belief in goodness. I mean, or if you, or if you even want to put it in, in our Christian context, he needs saving, right? He needs, he needs to be brought out of the place where he's at. He is lost in this dark place and where he realizes that he himself can't do the thing that he wants in order to get out. He can't bring self virtues. I guess the thing that I find so fascinating about Socrates is that he is as close to like Christian truth without Christ. Right. He Gets. He gets to the very cusp of it, which is he desires the goodness of he desire. He has a faith in the goodness of God. He desires to do, to be. He basically wants to be sinless. He doesn't want to sin because he knows sinning is, is, you know, bring. Is unhealthy for the soul. And he wants to find the person who is going to teach him the thing, the thing itself. Every year I teach Socrates, students always point out, man, Socrates just wants, like Socrates wants Jesus. That's who he wants him. That's who is the person who he wants to teach. The form of the good is that if Socrates sat down and met Jesus and Jesus said, I'm the way, the truth and life, Sardis would be like, yep, yeah, you are. That's. Yes. And he and Sardis could ask him questions about like, so what is, you know, what is goodness? And, and Christ would have the answers that Christ would give about the will of the father. Socrates would be like, yes, gotcha. I know it's going to rankle feathers out there, which is fine. Whereas Hamlet is lost. Hamlet is. I mean, both Socrates and Hamlet, you know, both want the same thing. They want that settled. They want the settled happiness of, of the, of virtue and of life with God. But anyway. But I, the. The that framework that they lack, I don't know, there's. I just. Our modern world lends itself to that more Hamlet mode of thinking. And I know that we have mental health crisis. People point to, you know, our cell phone addictions and all these kinds of things. But I, I wonder if it is also a spiritual crisis where we don't have that framework that our actions mean something because, and this is aj. This was my point with, with saying that a sense that a hope of heaven and a fear of hell, I don't think if that's the only, that's the only sort of way that you frame the framework, I don't think that's helpful. And I don't even think that's the gospel. But I think that a, a hope of heaven and a fear of hell does tell you that your actions mean something. So, I mean, when I was growing up in Christianity, there was a big push to not want to scare kids about hell and not want to worry kids about heaven. They really wanted to sort of shy away from that because they had grown up maybe with like the fire and brimstone sermons and they're like, oh, those weren't very good. And, and I don't really want our kids to have this. But I think that the pendulum swings in the other way. And then you have a generation of Christians growing up and saying, like, well, my moral actions have no bearing because it's all what Jesus did for me on the cross. And I don't need to do anything good or bad because I don't have anything to fear because Jesus did it all. And therefore now I have no frame of reference for my moral behavior in this life. That's really wrong. And I think we have to do a lot of work as modern Christians to sort of undo that bad mode of thinking. No, how you behave matters. You know, your words and speech and faithfulness to friends and family and spouse matter. Like all this stuff matters. It can't just be Jesus paid it all, so I get to kind of like fart around. Yeah. So there. In that sense, I do think like a framework that your behavior in this life could go bad for you if you do. If you, you know, if you, if you give yourself into vice is a helpful thing. It doesn't matter. That's scary for a ninth grader. Just. It doesn't have to. It's. That's not the whole of the story.

[AJ Henenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Anyway, what else you got? I got nothing else. That's it. That's. That's it. I guess maybe the, The. Yeah. Just that consider. Re realizing that we are also spiritual beings, that having a metaphysic of. Of our ethical world, it's. That is important to human happiness. That it's not just, well, this is going to get me the things that I want. Because if, if your behavior is just in the here and now, well, if you can get away with something and no one knows about it, you're going to do it. But if you have a metaphysic that says, you know, there is an omnipotence that always sees your actions and it's going to keep you from, from, from vice and you love virtue, then that's. I think that actually it's. People think that that's going to give people all these kind of like crazy complexes about guilt. And I think the opposite is true. It opens it up to people realizing that my behavior actually means something and you have agency. So don't believe the movies where all the people and the television shows or whatever, where people who believe in heaven, it. Heaven and hell, it freezes them and they turn into like, like weird people, you know, weird idiosyncratic people in this life who don't know how to behave. And like, the real heroes are the ones that, like, are materialists or whatever. I think that's, it's the opposite. It's true. I think that if you just, if just the here and now exists, your life is filled with a tremendous amount of anxiety and if you have some sort of sense that there is justice in the world, in the universe that matters and all the bad will one day be brought to justice and all the good will be held up and said, that this is good is a tremendously liberating thing. Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

All right. This has been classical stuff. You should know. You can find us [e-mail], you can find us on Twitter at classical stuff. See L-S S C A L stuff. You can find us on Patreon, patreon.com classical stuff. And you can email us at theguys classicalstuff.net thank you all for listening. And I guess we're gonna do an in between after this which you can find on our Patreon. Thanks, everyone.

[Graham Donaldson]

Bye bye.