270: Phaedo

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know: Episode 270 - Phaedo

Release Date: December 17, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 270 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanenberg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee delve into Plato's Phaedo, a profound dialogue that explores the immortality of the soul and the philosophical underpinnings of life and death. This episode offers an engaging analysis aimed at both educators and enthusiasts of the classical world, blending intellectual discourse with light-hearted banter.

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Overview of Phaedo

A.J. Hanenberg introduces the episode by outlining his intention to discuss one of Plato's most significant dialogues, Phaedo. He provides context, explaining that the dialogue captures the final moments of Socrates before his execution, as witnessed by his close associates.

A.J. Hanenberg [01:36]: "...Phaedo is the day of his death, and his execution was postponed for a while because they were right around a religious ceremony..."

The hosts set the stage for a deep dive into the philosophical arguments presented by Socrates regarding the soul's immortality.

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Immortality of the Soul

The central theme of Phaedo is the immortality of the soul. Socrates presents several arguments to support this claim, which the hosts scrutinize throughout the episode.

Doctrine of Recollection

One of Socrates' primary arguments is the Doctrine of Recollection. He posits that learning is essentially remembering knowledge the soul possessed before birth.

A.J. Hanenberg [20:29]: "We don't learn things, we simply remember them..."

The hosts challenge this notion, drawing parallels to modern understandings of knowledge acquisition and questioning the validity of innate knowledge.

Doctrine of Opposites

Another significant argument is the Doctrine of Opposites, where Socrates likens life and death to phenomena like warmth and cold. He suggests that since opposites generate each other, life must generate death and vice versa, implying an eternal cycle.

A.J. Hanenberg [22:36]: "... life must come from somewhere, otherwise literally everything would die and we would have no more life coming into the world."

The hosts critically assess this argument, highlighting logical inconsistencies and misunderstandings of biological processes.

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Arguments Presented

Socrates' arguments for the soul's immortality form the crux of the discussion. The hosts break down each argument, evaluating its philosophical robustness and practical applicability.

Separation of Soul and Body

Socrates advocates for the separation of the soul from the body, asserting that the body hinders the soul's pursuit of true knowledge.

A.J. Hanenberg [08:26]: "The philosopher should flee from the body, which is a hindrance..."

The hosts debate the practicality and logic of dismissing the body's role in perception and experience, ultimately finding Socrates' stance unconvincing.

Virtue and Fear

Socrates ties the concept of virtue to the soul's desire for immortality, arguing that true philosophers possess innate virtues uninfluenced by bodily desires or fears.

A.J. Hanenberg [14:58]: "Only the philosopher can have real virtue..."

This leads to a lively discussion among the hosts about the nature of courage, temperance, and whether virtues can exist independently of fear or desire.

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Host Perspectives

Throughout the episode, the hosts interject personal opinions and modern perspectives, providing a balanced critique of Socrates' arguments.

Thomas Magbee [12:35]: "Yeah, I think it's really dumb..."

Graeme Donaldson [16:22]: "My thought. I wonder if courage can even exist without fear..."

These candid insights add depth to the analysis, making complex philosophical concepts more relatable to the audience.

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Discussion on Recollection and Opposites

The conversation delves deeper into the Doctrine of Recollection and the Doctrine of Opposites, with the hosts questioning their logical foundations and real-world implications.

A.J. Hanenberg [19:30]: "And the quick argument to review is...either it came to us at birth, or we're simply remembering it because we've been reincarnated."

Graham Donaldson [42:18]: "Soul as an idea cannot admit of death..."

The hosts systematically dismantle these arguments, pointing out flaws and highlighting the gaps between ancient philosophical reasoning and contemporary logical standards.

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Comparison to Dante’s Inferno

A.J. Hanenberg draws parallels between Socrates' descriptions in Phaedo and Dante Alighieri's Inferno, particularly regarding the concept of the afterlife and the rivers of the underworld.

A.J. Hanenberg [50:08]: "So if you're a big Dante fan..."

This segment provides an intriguing cross-cultural analysis, illustrating how classical philosophies influenced later literary masterpieces.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on Socrates' unwavering belief in the soul's immortality despite the superficial strength of his arguments. They acknowledge the historical significance of Phaedo while maintaining a critical stance on its philosophical assertions.

A.J. Hanenberg [54:19]: "...knowing that Dante cooked up his Four Rivers from...this idea was in the ether already and he just had to..."

Thomas Magbee [54:19]: "Yeah, this has been classical stuff. You should know..."

The hosts encourage listeners to engage with classical texts thoughtfully, recognizing both their contributions and their limitations.

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Notable Quotes

• A.J. Hanenberg [04:08]: "Shame."

• Graham Donaldson [06:32]: "In death, you're free from pain and suffering..."

• A.J. Hanenberg [12:35]: "Yeah, I think it's really dumb."

• A.J. Hanenberg [27:47]: "...you know, Socrates would have judged me roundly."

• A.J. Hanenberg [43:58]: "Soul as an idea will live on. Sure. Does that mean that a man's actual soul will live on? I'm not sure it does."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 270 of Classical Stuff You Should Know offers a comprehensive and critical examination of Plato's Phaedo. Through thoughtful analysis and engaging discussion, the hosts navigate the complexities of ancient philosophy, making it accessible and relevant to modern listeners. While they commend the historical importance of Socrates' arguments, they also highlight the areas where these ideas fall short, providing a balanced perspective that encourages further exploration and understanding.

For those interested in delving deeper into Aristotle's views on the soul, the hosts recommend A.J. Hanenberg's previous episodes on De Anima, suggesting a continued journey through classical philosophical thought.

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Join A.J., Graeme, and Thomas next week as they continue to unravel the rich tapestry of the classical world, blending scholarly insight with the enjoyment of fine ales and good tales.

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Find Us Online:

• Website: classicalstuff.net
• Twitter: @classicalstuff
• Patreon: patreon.com/classicalstuff
• Email: [e-mail]

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

[Thomas Magbee]

Hello, and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know, a podcast about philosophy and the ancient world. My name is Thomas Magbee. I'm joined, as always, by Mr. A.J. hanenberg over here and Mr. Graham Donaldson.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hi.

[Thomas Magbee]

And I feel like there's no better kind of understanding of our podcast than that. AJ Is about to lead us on a very intellectual discussion about the soul life. We're going to go for some Greek dialogue stuff. And Graham, just before this podcast, gave what he described as a robust belch.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hey. I was trying to get it out of my system before we recorded. That is professionalism.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's about as professional as we get. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I feel like there's a lot of things, like, for example, my book is Plato's Dialogues, but my bookmark is a little mushroom.

[Thomas Magbee]

Little mushroom. That's really. That's nice. I like that.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Well, anyway, aj, you're going to be leading us through this one, so take it away.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay. So I've been doing a small series on the dialogues of Plato, and unfortunately, the book club that I was doing it for already finished our final discussion before I could actually finish these episodes. But here we go. We're going to do one more. And this one is the dialogue Phaedo, spelled P H A E D O. And it's dialogue between two guys, one of whom was present at the execution of Socrates. And so he is going to describe what happened as they talked that morning. And they were hanging out with Socrates. So this comes from. Shoot, I forgot to open the rest of my notes. This comes before. So Socrates has been condemned to death from the last one.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I think that was an apology. I think you talked about that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Apology is a trial. And then Crito is when he's in jail.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. And so Phaedo is the day of his death, and his execution was postponed for a while because they were right around a religious ceremony, which is when the ship from Delos is, like, finally seen. They're not allowed to do anything until it arrives. And so his. It's put off for a little while. So the ship has landed. That festival is over. Today is the day. The people who have condemned him to death have pretty much said, like, it's gonna happen. You need to prepare yourself. And so Socrates is hanging out in jail with a bunch of his buddies who are allowed to visit him. You know, he doesn't have to be alone. And so his wife Zantippe, who was there, is just having a total conniption fit. And so he's like, would someone please take her home? And like, get her out of here. She's just causing trouble and doesn't need to be here. So they're chatting, and one of the things that Socrates has been doing recently is composing little verses. He's taking Aesop's fables and turning them into little songs, because he's always had a dream, and in his dreams, the gods tell him cultivate and make music. And he's like, I've always thought that was philosophy, but now. But I'm not entirely sure. And so I'm going to give this whole composing things a little try. Right. We'll see how it goes. So all of his buddies are talking to him.

[Thomas Magbee]

Do we get examples of some of those songs?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

No, sadly, we don't. So then he's talking about this other. This other philosopher, and he says he should follow me quickly into death, like, go advise him after I leave that he should hurry to death as quickly as they can. And everyone around is like, what? What are you talking about? Like, you want to hurry to death? Can you please explain this to us? And he says, yes. And he gives his first big postulate, which is that any man who has the spirit of philosophy should be willing to die. You should want to die and desire death, but you can't commit suicide. That's unlawful. So no suicide. All right, do we have. Can you guys have eyes on the bell? Can you grab me that bell right there?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, for sure.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay, so I want to do a little bit of quiz show, if I can. First question is, why is it unlawful to kill oneself?

[Thomas Magbee]

You know the answer to this one, Graham.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, I know the. I know our theological reason why it's unlawful.

[Thomas Magbee]

But you're saying, like, for Socrates in his time, why would it be unlawful?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Sure. I mean, you guys can give both. Like, if either of you can guess the thing that he said, you'll get.

[Thomas Magbee]

A point for why he shouldn't kill himself.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's dishonorable. It's gonna bring shame to his name and to all his family.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay. Shame.

[Graham Donaldson]

You got responsibilities. Your kids need you to raise.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

0. 0. Okay, so neither of you got it. The reason he says, is because, look, the gods are our keepers. We are their possessions, and so we do not have the right to dispose of ourselves.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And I think this is actually probably still the theological stance. Right, Correct.

[Graham Donaldson]

God made you, and you don't have the right to kill yourself.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, exactly. He's like, how would you feel if you owned an ox and the ox didn't like his life and decided to off himself? Well, his life doesn't belong to himself. His life belongs to you. And so we are the possession of the gods, and it is unlawful to do such a thing. Would you guys still hold this position?

[Graham Donaldson]

Sure.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

You guys agree this is the reason why suicide equals bad?

[Graham Donaldson]

If my pepper plant just, like, you know, decided to kill itself and not produce peppers, I'd be upset.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Sure. Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

I own that. I cultivated that pepper plant.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's fair.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay, do you guys say that this. I mean, this is, I guess, a side conversation. Would you guys apply this to everything? Because there are times in scriptures when people commit suicide and say, if I was a commander, to fall on my sword or to run on one sword. This happens all the time in the Old Testament. Happens also. It's not like Roman Wars.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's not presented as, like, this is.

[Thomas Magbee]

A good thing to do.

[Graham Donaldson]

Saul kills himself. But it's also not like.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's not. It's not commanded as something.

[Graham Donaldson]

Commanded by God.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay, that wasn't the discussion I wanted to get into. Just, you know.

[Graham Donaldson]

But yes, the. Yeah, the Roman commander falling on a sword. Yeah. I mean, as opposed to. Well, they're usually doing it because society is sort of expecting it of them. Right. So in that sense, they're like upholding something as opposed to getting out of something.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

But anyway, it's different than the, like, despair leading to suicide.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Right? Yeah. Okay, so then they all say, like, so we don't have the right to do this. And he says so, but we should still desire death. And so his followers say, okay, you're not allowed to kill yourself, but you should still desire death. If the gods are our masters and they're great and good, why shouldn't we want to stay with them as long as possible? And you are. And here you are, like, hurrying off to death. Okay, any guesses on what his answer are? Why? Why hurry to death and not stay with your.

[Thomas Magbee]

Didn't you just give us one about, like, your senses lead you astray, and so you get to escape those senses and get closer to true knowledge.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

In death, you're free from pain and suffering, and. And you are just. You get to exist in the realm of pure thought. And by existing the realm of pure thought, you can, like, engage in philosophical leisure all day long.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay, so point for both of you. You sort of skipped ahead. He does give two other smaller answers, but that's again, going to be his ultimate answer. His other quick answers are, number one, I believe I'm going to up other gods who are just as good.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They're gods of the underworld, and I'll be probably able to have closer communion with them. And also because there's other men down there who are also very good.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And I believe they're better than the ones I'm leaving behind. And I don't know why the people in the place weren't like, bro, were right here. He's like, I think I'm gonna go to better people than I currently know. And you know, that's kind of an insult to his friends. But nobody said anything, Gary. Oh man, somebody farted. And I'd think it was you.

[Thomas Magbee]

So the place he describes himself going, the Underworld, like, that's the. Like, where is he in his conception? Where is he going?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The underworld. And what's funny is I think he actually talks a little bit about this. We'll actually have a pretty specific description of the underworld. This is one of the only places, you know, he does this here. And I think he also does it in the Republic, where he kind of gives us a vision of what the underworld's gonna look like.

[Thomas Magbee]

But this is not like the place heroes go, or I guess this is just the generic place everyone ends up.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes. So he's. We'll talk about where everyone kind of ends up after death in a minute. But he says, I think I'm going to better people and a better, you know, a better set of gods, and that's gonna be awesome. And all of his followers kind of make a joke about, like, won't everyone think it's hilarious when philosophers are desiring death? And he's like, yeah, haha, that's kind of funny because everyone sort of says that about philosophers anyway. They'd rather be dead. So then they kind of ask why? And he says, okay, we can all agree that death exists. And they're like, yes. And he says, it is the separation of soul and body. Philosophers shouldn't care for the pleasures of the body. Correct.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Only for the soul, which is their soul concern. I actually kind of giggled to myself as I wrote that note. I was like, soul, soul. But they won't see the spelling difference. He would want to get away from the body and turn to the soul as much as he can. The body itself is no help in gaining knowledge. The eyes and the senses are inaccurate. This is a quote. Inaccuracies, inaccurate witnesses. True existence is itself revealed in thought, if at all. So the philosopher should flee from the body, which is a hindrance. The essence of things is perceived by the mind. Absolute justice, beauty, etc. Can never be seen by the eyes, but must be reached through thought alone. And the body is just a hindrance. So after your episode, which for our listener would have been last week, he was talking about, so what can you. Can you recapitulate what Aristotle's view is? How do we come to knowledge?

[Graham Donaldson]

You have a number of experiences. You experience lots of things. And as you experience things in the same category, you can make generalized statements about those categories. And as you make enough generalized statements about categories, you can be. You can understand the art of things. And then if you sort of. Sort of acquiring the art of different categories is the path to wisdom, generally speaking?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

That sort of.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes. Okay, so see stuff, experience stuff, but.

[Graham Donaldson]

It'S through experiences in your senses. And Aristotle starts off metaphysics by saying, like, aren't the eyes awesome? The eyes are awesome. Eyes are great.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. Which I feel like is actually a direct. Almost a direct response to the quote I'm about to read you. So he's just finished talking about how pleasures don't really help. And he says, the thought. Thought is best when the mind gather, is gathered into herself, and none of these things trouble her, Neither sounds, nor sights, nor pain, nor any pleasure, when she takes leave of the body and has as little as possible to do with it, and when she has no bodily sense or desire, but is aspiring after true being. Okay. And then he kind of asks a couple questions. He says, well, but there is another thing, Simmias. Is there or is there not an absolute justice? And Simmias says, assuredly, there is. And an absolute beauty and absolute good? Well, of course, but did you ever behold any of them with your eyes? And he goes, no, certainly not. And he says, or did you ever reach them with any other bodily sense? And I speak not of these alone, but of absolute greatness and health and strength, and of the essence or true nature of everything. Has the reality of them ever been perceived by you through your bodily organs? Or rather is not the nearest approach to knowledge of their several natures made by him, who so orders his intellectual vision as to have the most exact conception of the essence of each thing he considers? And that's the quote that seems like. It seems like Aristotle had just read that and then wrote his all men want to see, and aren't the eyes great? Like, I couldn't help but think of this exact passage when you were reading that. So I didn't. I originally hadn't prepared that for today, but it seems to fit. And so he says, and he attains to the purest knowledge of Them who goes to each with the mind alone, not introducing or introducing in the act of. Sorry. Not introducing or intruding in the act of thought, sight, or any other sense together with reason, but with the very light of the mind in her own clearness searches into the very truth of each. He who has got rid as far as he can of eyes and ears and so to speak, of the whole body, these being, in his opinion, distracting elements which, when they infect the soul, hinder her from inquiring truth and knowledge, who, if not he is likely to attain to the knowledge of true being? And Simmia says, what you say has a wonderful truth in it, Socrates. And so basically, when the soul is infected with the evils of the body, our desire for philosophy is not satisfied, nor is the desire of truth, until we can be rid of it.

[Graham Donaldson]

So just body bad, mind good.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Body bad, mind good.

[Thomas Magbee]

The.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The body is the source of all sorts of evils, and so the soul needs to perceive things in themselves. And if. If that's what we desire is the truth of things, and the body is only a hindrance, then we should be rid of it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[Thomas Magbee]

So you hate this. You, like, totally disagree with this?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, I think it's really dumb.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay, cool.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

What do you guys think?

[Graham Donaldson]

I like bodies.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah. It's good to be alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

It feels like he is entirely skipping that he has any notion of essence or any knowledge of any of these ideas, and like, it has to come from his eyes at some point. So maybe if he said, look, you need some experience, but by the time you're 10, you've seen about everything worth seeing. And after that thought takes over. But he is saying nothing. No eyes, no sense, experience. You have to simply go through your mind alone. Which to me sounds only like silliness. It's like trying to have a factory run with no materials put into it. Like, the factory works, it's great, but we'll have no materials here.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The factory runs best when it runs on its own. So that just seems. That seems ridiculous to me. Okay, so he says the separation of soul and body is the sole concern for philosophers. It'd be silly for them who are living as nearly to dead as possible to get scared when it finally comes upon them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If they're desiring to be separated from their body and they're getting as close to that as they can, it'd be stupid to freak out when death finally comes near.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They'd be clearly lovers of the body and not of wisdom. He even says that the true virtues themselves belong only to true philosophers, these people who desire death. And I want to get your opinion on this one. He says, courage. Most men only have courage because they are afraid of something else, right? We risk death because we are afraid of tyranny or of the deaths of our family, or poverty. Or poverty or taking of our possessions, right? So he says, really, you only have courage when you lack courage. And the same is true of temperance. We have certain pleasures that we love, right? Being able to take a walk and, like, enjoy a sunny day. And that's why we avoid too much drinking or heroin or, you know, whatever it is. Because we want to preserve some pleasures so we avoid others, which is like, to have temperance, we must have lack of temperance. We are still conquered by fear and. And by pleasure. In both of those scenarios, he says, only the philosopher can have real virtue. Because I'm not conquered by any other fear.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If I am separated from the body and it's not pleasures that I care about, then I can have virtue in its purest form. Right?

[Thomas Magbee]

I mean, these are the parts of Plato we make fun of, right? Like, only the philosophers are the real humans. They're the only ones who are really brave or really temperate or really cool.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The problem is this one kind of makes sense, that, like a little bit about virtue, that's like a weird, like.

[Thomas Magbee]

Psychologizing of why a person is courageous. Is it possible for someone to have courage without fear of something else? Sure. Like, why can't it not just be? The thing I'm courageous in regards to is whatever fear is in front of me.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is it weird to say, like, I'm courageous because I'm scared of my family getting hurt?

[Thomas Magbee]

Is that anybody.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is that a fear or is that a lack of courage? It's not a lack of courage. It's. It's. It's almost a desire for justice. You're courageous so that a just thing can happen, or so to. To keep an unjust thing from happening. That doesn't. It doesn't seem like to be courage. Courageous, you need. You lack courage somewhere else. It's. You're courageous because you also have. Because you don't want injustice to happen.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

My thought. I wonder if courage can even exist without fear. Courage, I think by definition is acting when there is something to be feared, right? If I'm not afraid of anything, it's not really courage. I'm just, like, picking up takeout food. Like, if I'm not afraid of death and I go out to fight, am I really being courageous? I Think courage like, isn't courage like it necessitates fear or fear is necessary for the very courage for courage to exist at all.

[Thomas Magbee]

You're overcoming that fear to then do the courageous thing.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Exactly.

[Thomas Magbee]

But not. Are you then saying that you also need to be scared of something else? There's some other fear motivating me to be courageous that I don't agree with.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't think that, that you are motivated by fear to be courageous. You could be motivated by anything. Anything. You can be motivated by justice, you can be motivated by, you know.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Sure. But the thing you are doing, I think has to be a fearful thing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If I'm motivated by justice to do something in which I must be courageous, the thing that I'm doing must be a thing I would naturally be afraid of. Correct.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is, this is again letting the fire under me to continue to. I have this idea of doing a. The Yosef Peeper book on the four cardinal virtues and like, and looking at all the in depth definitions of all these virtues. And now it's like I'm trying to remember all the courage stuff, but I can't.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So I'll have to do.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Well, I mean, doesn't Aristotle talk about all this stuff too?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Keeper is basically just like Aristotle footnotes.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. So yeah, I feel like Aristotle would be easier to read maybe. Is that fair? I feel like people's hard to read.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's more condensed than this Aristotle book you have. Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

But Aristotle's pretty great. I love me some Aristotle.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. I mean there's a reason why everyone all the way up into the middle ages called him the philosopher. Yeah. Okay. So he says this thing and he's like, right. I've been living towards death, only we can have real virtues. It'd be silly of me to run from it. And then his followers ask the next logical question. Can you guess?

[Thomas Magbee]

No.

[Graham Donaldson]

Are you looking forward to death? No.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

It's what if the soul doesn't live on?

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, yeah, right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So like, what if your soul just scatters?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

What if you're wrong and the soul doesn't live forever and it's just gone in the wind?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So the same fear a lot of people have now.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That if I die, what if my soul just disappears?

[Graham Donaldson]

It's just black, it's just emptiness.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. Oh, what's the. So did you. Have you guys ever seen the Mike Tyson interview where he's Talking to a 13 year old girl and she's like, I'm wondering about like what your legacy is gonna be. And he's like, we don't have any legacy. There's nothing after death. I'm just gonna be dirt. Like there's nothing. It's all just hubris. So like I just like nothing after it. It's just darkness. There's no such thing as legacy. That's what people talk about. I don't believe in that. So this poor 13 year old girl is getting a lesson in like nihilism from Mike Tyson. So he's got that fear, obviously.

[Graham Donaldson]

Did you watch the fight?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I didn't the day of. I kind of tried but Netflix wasn't loading and so I watched like just the last bit of it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Do you think he pulled his punches? Do you think he threw the fight?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Man, I don't know. It looked. I feel like Mike Tyson should have just drowned.

[Graham Donaldson]

There was a moment where I was watching this, I was watching the fight. I know we should move on, but there was a moment I was watching the fight and I was like, what are we doing? Like, there's. He looked like an old man at some point he was like crying. He wasn't crying, but he was like, he was clearly pained in the. What was the eighth round, Going into the last round, the ninth round. And I just saw him and I was like, we're just watching like a 26 year old beating on a 50, almost 60 year old man. This is kind of. It's like. And then I went and toured the Coliseum in Rome.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So terrible. Okay, so Socrates responds and says the. The soul must be immortal. There are two reasons he gives for this. We can play quiz show on this. But I feel like this is. These are tougher to get.

[Thomas Magbee]

I feel like Graham knows them like offhand. I bet you could name both of them.

[Graham Donaldson]

Do you know either why the soul must be immortal? Yeah, because it learns. I can't remember.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That's close. Yeah, that's close to one. I'll give you half a point.

[Graham Donaldson]

All right, cool.

[Thomas Magbee]

There's something about like motion or we're not doing the weird element stuff where like fire and the body is the soul. Whatever. Your weird episodes from before.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, those were. I think those were Aristotle.

[Thomas Magbee]

Were they Aristotle.

[Graham Donaldson]

De anima de anima.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. Like what this, what the soul is.

[Thomas Magbee]

I remember those.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, yeah, that was good. That was a whole lot of, you know, not all of Aristotle is top tier.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, sure.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So he says there's two reasons. One, and this is one we discussed in a previous episode of mine is the doctrine of recollection.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

We don't learn Things, we simply remember them. I think it was maybe the last episode I did where he sort of nudge, nudge, taught this kid geometry. And the kid gave wrong answers. And he just sort of blew past it. And he's like, but wouldn't it be better if it was 8 and not 4? And the kid's like, okay. And he's like, ah, see, he knew it already.

[Graham Donaldson]

So that's Mino, right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, I think it's Mino. And so he goes back into that doctrine of recollection. And the quick, quick argument to review is he's like. We have this notion of, say something, something eternal like equality, right? What perfect equality is. But we've never actually seen that. We've seen two blocks of wood that look a lot alike, but the grain structure isn't the same. And if we cut them open, they'd look a little bit different. They have knots in different places. The same with stone, right? We're gonna see veins in different places. So we've never actually seen really quality, but we can imagine it. And because we can imagine it, we must be getting this knowledge from somewhere. So either it came to us at the point of our birth, right? When we were born, all this knowledge just popped into our heads, or we're simply remembering it because we've forgotten it because we've been reincarnated, right? So. So he has that little piece, okay? The other piece is that he has a doctrine of opposites. So there's something like warmth and cold. So something. They're opposite, they can't be there together. But warmth comes out of cold, right? So if you have a warm, sunny day, you know it's warm because at one point you had a cold day. The same is true of fast and slow things, right? We wouldn't know fast, except that we've seen slow things. And we wouldn't know slow, except that we've seen fast. And they come from each other and generate each other. I can see someone going fast because a minute ago they were going slow. And I can see someone going slow because they were going fast. He says the same is true of life and death. So we can see life move into death, but we can't really see what death moves into. But life must come from somewhere, otherwise literally everything would die and we would have no more life coming into the world. Okay.

[Thomas Magbee]

I'm not sure I get it, but okay, like. Yeah. You buy this?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, not at all. I think, like, this is. This is a horrible idea. So I think what's happening is he is misunderstanding how biology works, that, that the way life comes from death is by taking immature like inanimate material food and then eating that and then digesting that and making it into the building blocks of life. But that happens when something is already alive. There was a, a germ of life and that life has continued in an unbroken chain until now.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So is it possible that eventually that dies out and everything dies? Yes. He might be looking on too short of a timeline and he doesn't really understand how like we pass on life. He thinks, you know, something must spring into the child's child's. Like an inanimate child's body in a woman's belly from somewhere. And so I think it's partially a misunderst. Misunderstanding of biology and also just a weird equality of things like, I don't know. So saying that, say things that rotate and things that don't rotate are opposites and one comes from the other. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean there was a time when the earth wasn't rotating or wasn't orbiting the sun.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He leaves no room for something that is always moving fast.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Or something that is always doing something. Does that kind of make sense?

[Thomas Magbee]

Makes sense.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So I don't think it's a good doctrine. So. But for these two things, Right. So cut him some slack.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's about to die, poor guy.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Sure, give him some.

[Graham Donaldson]

Give him the comfort of immortal soul.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I just think he's got better arguments maybe coming later.

[Thomas Magbee]

Will he make another argument for why the soul is immortal?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. Yes, kind of. At least there's. There's more talk of it because not everybody really buys this.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, great. Okay. Yeah, so they're on the same page.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, well, they're objections. They say, okay, you've proved that the soul will like that the soul came from somewhere. You haven't proved it will continue after death.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, great.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So we're remembering stuff that we learned before. Doesn't mean we're going to keep on going after. He says, well, if we combine this with my previous argument, we've proved that the soul should pass into life again after death because we have that whole, like opposites generate out of each other. So from warmth comes cold, but from cold has to come warmth again. So life to death. Eventually there has to be some life or else everything would just be die. This is where it gets more complicated for him. He says, okay, there are things that pass away and those things are like composite soluble things that are like put together or conglomerates, for example. And he says pure things Don't. So, like pure justice, pure beauty, the essence of things. These things don't change, but visible beauty does, right? So I can see a woman who is beautiful. She will eventually decay, right? I can see a coat that is beautiful. I can see a tree that is beautiful. I can see a landscape that's beautiful. It will all eventually change and be not as beautiful as before. But beauty itself does not. The things that don't change tend to be invisible. So, like the essence of things, true beauty, true justice, we can't see any of those. The soul is invisible like those. It also rules the body. It commands the body, and the body obeys. Therefore, it's more like divine things than earthly things. And when released, it won't be soluble and likely to pass away, right? A body, even just a body, will last for a long time after death. So the bones last for a long time. If you're embalmed, you last for a really long time. If he even talks about, like, if you've had good habits, it'll last for a really long time. But the soul isn't like that. Like, it'll. It'll last for a really, really long time. And this is where he gets into, like, weird metaphysics. He says, souls that are tainted by earthly pleasures and desires will want to stay. So a philosopher, he's like, body sucks. I'm out. I don't want this anymore. But anybody who's like, man, I really love Chinese food is tainted by the body, and they're gonna want to stick around. And so this is where ghosts come from.

[Thomas Magbee]

He says that. Wow, okay, cool.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They stick around and they become visible, which is like a changeable thing. That's not great. We don't like visible things. We like invisible things. Or they go into animals that are like their own natures. So if I'm a tyrant, my soul, which wants to stick around, is not going to desire the things after death, is going to go in something like a wolf, right? If I am, say, a nice, happy, sociable person, I'll go and be an ant or a bee. And then if I'm, say, really energetic, I'll be a hummingbird. And then you are reincarnated as that. And then maybe learn and eventually get freed.

[Graham Donaldson]

What if you really like Chinese food? What was that one?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, like, what would you. I mean, panda, probably.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay, good.

[Graham Donaldson]

Panda express.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yep. So the real soul, untainted by the world, is released. And this is why true philosophers avoid pleasures. They fool the mind into thinking that the pleasurable or painful thing is real. When it's not, they want to know the truth so they avoid these things.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You're saying that the options are I could go off and live into the realm of like pure idea. Or I could come back as a bee.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, that rules.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, I know. I'm not really sold either. Or I could come back as a freaking ghost. That sounds awesome. Clearly. You know, Socrates would have judged me roundly.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's fair.

[Graham Donaldson]

Buzz, buzz, buddy.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I know, right? We could both be bees.

[Unnamed Speaker]

How rad would that be?

[Graham Donaldson]

That would be awesome. Get some honey.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Or like be wolves in the same pack. I, I could, I can imagine being a tyrant reading in this and being like friggin dope. Cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

Realm of ideas.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Second round of that.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Bunch of nerds like hang out with pure justice. That sounds like it sucks. I want to like run down a hair in the middle of winter. That sounds amazing. Lead a pack. Very cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

I once saw a pack of wolves take down an elk.

[Thomas Magbee]

Wow.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Are you serious? You saw that?

[Graham Donaldson]

I saw it. We, through binoculars. We were at some part my family, we would always go up for Canadian Thanksgiving to a cottage in northern Saskatchewan. And one year, and this is in October one year it froze. Really had big deep freeze. And a lot of the river and the, the lake was frozen over. And my dad saw sort of like commotion on the lake and he's like, what is that? And we got our binoculars and I saw this wolf pack chasing down this elk on the frozen lake. And they were just like, they. The elk was running and it was clearly tired. And the wolves were just like sort of cantering behind beside it and just like taking swipes at it, like bites at it.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh my gosh.

[Graham Donaldson]

Until eventually the elk got so exhausted, fell down and then the pack descended on it. It was wild.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's crazy.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That must be. I mean I don't think the elk felt this, but like can you imagine running away from something and knowing that like I should have done more cardio cuz your body is just failing. That's gotta be crazy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Not great.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So I wonder who got reincarnated as an elk? Yeah, like what kind of constitution you have to have?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know. Somebody that vegetarian, love running, I guess.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Like couch potato.

[Thomas Magbee]

Couch potato? Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

That sucks.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Although elk are pretty rad. Okay. His buddies don't buy this.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They say okay, well sure. But there are other things that are also invisible that don't last. For example, harmony.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Take an instrument, a lyre.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

You've got the composite thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

Riddle me this Socrates.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yes.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The composite thing that will pass away, the instrument.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And you have the invisible thing that is unassailable. The idea of harmony that will. Like that is something that's invisible. It's awesome. But the moment you break the lyre, that goes away. What if the soul is much like harmony?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Where it is the thing that comes out of when a body is put together, but when you destroy the body, it's gone. Okay. Do you guys have answers for this? I know I'm asking you really hard questions.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

This is a tough quiz show.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's. Is it that, like, the. The harmony is, like, an example of it, but the concept of harmony lasts forever?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah. Seems like it's just a bad example. Right. Like, he'll. He will disagree and say that. Yeah. What they're comparing it to is not similar to the body that they're. Yeah. Our idea of harmony preexisted that. Liar. I'm saying the same thing Graham did.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. So I think your response is actually better than the one he gave. Oh, let's go in that. You say like, yes, but the essence of harmony remains.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And I think Socrates often has this confusion where he confuses the idea of something with the reality of something.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Like the idea of soul and actual soul.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So, yes, the idea of soul will live on. Sure. Does that mean that a man's actual soul will live on? I'm not sure it does. He has that problem a few times. His response is threefold. Number one, he goes back to his doctrine of recollection.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But we remember things so clearly, our soul was there before the instrument, and that's not the way that harmony works.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So if you don't buy his whole we are just recollecting knowledge that we've previously had, then that argument doesn't really land for you. The second thing is that harmonies can be like. Some things are more harmonious and some less.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Like, what is a band you don't like? Donaldson, like, you'd say is less. Less harmonious.

[Graham Donaldson]

Less harmonious band. I don't like. I don't know. I don't like Taylor Swift.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay. So you. You think Taylor Swift is maybe a little less harmonious? Who do you like? Nickelback.

[Thomas Magbee]

Big Nickelback.

[Graham Donaldson]

Fam. Let's go with. What band do I like? Let's go with. I don't know. We'll go with Radiohead. Okay, great.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So there's. There's Radiohead. You've got these two things. And he says, okay, some polyphonic Spree.

[Graham Donaldson]

Remember those guys?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, yeah, they're so weird. Like a band cult thing. Anyway, he says there's some harmonies that are more harmonious, right? You got your Radiohead or Polyphonic Spree, and then you have those that are less harmonious. You got your Taylor Swift.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But if that. So if soul was like harmony, then some souls would be more soul than other souls. So what exactly would that look like? Would that just mean, like virtue and vice?

[Thomas Magbee]

Better people.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, better people. He's more so. But that's the thing is, like, he's still. He's still a man. He's still a soul. He still has a complete soul. It's just maybe not less human.

[Thomas Magbee]

I don't know.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

A great one. I also don't think this is a great.

[Thomas Magbee]

Not great. Yeah, we're kind of over three right now.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, finally. Well, here's the three.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

This one is actually a much better one. The soul directs the body and is often in opposition to it. So say you are, like, real hungry and all you see is a big plate of candy corns. You know that eating that would be a very bad idea.

[Thomas Magbee]

Terrible idea.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And so your brain says, although you are hungry, we should not eat all these terrible candy corns. But your body really wants to do it. And so this is very different than, say, a liar. And the harmony, right? If your mind was coming, it was generated by your body. Your body would be the one doing the directing, but it's not. The mind is the one doing the directing of the body. And so therefore, it's not like that, Right? It's not like when the body is destroyed, the mind goes to. Because the mind is the one that's doing the directing, right? The soul is in charge. Harmony is never in charge of the instrument. I think this is a better argument as to the analogy.

[Thomas Magbee]

There's like, a distinction between them. Yeah, that's fair. You cannot separate the harmony of the liar from the liar playing. Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, that's fair. Okay, so so far, he's still trying to prove that the soul is immortal. There's one more guy that's like, I still don't buy it. And I actually find his argument. His. His objection very good. He says, okay, look, say I've got a buddy. His name's Donaldson, right? Donaldson's a coat maker. He makes a lot of coats, right? And he wears them. He'll make a coat and he'll wear it for, say, a year.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Well, Donaldson gets old and he kicks it, right? And then I go and I look at his story sucks and I look at his coat and I say, okay, he still, he must still be alive.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Because the man lasts longer than the coat. Right, but he's not.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The coat's still there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is still there. And so he's saying, okay, granted, sure, we may have existed prior and we may exist after, but you haven't proven that. What's really going on is that the soul is simply long lived. And so we might go through a succession of bodies, we might have 10, 20, 50. But you haven't proved conclusively that the soul is actually irrevocably immortal.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

We might go through a thousand reincarnations. That doesn't mean that this won't be your last Socrates.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I find that to be a very compelling one.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's also hypothetical. I don't know what to do with it. Like, yeah, sure, that could be true. I don't know how he. Socrates must have a response, but I don't even know how you would.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, so here's his response. And this is probably the most confusing and complex one, so I might not fully understand it. So if you're a Plato supporter out there, you've got, I guess, following along so far. So far. How do you be? Let's, let's just do a check in. How do you feel about the immortality of the soul? Are you convinced?

[Thomas Magbee]

Not so far. I mean, he's not doing so good. Right. Like he's gotten some pretty good pushback. And I'll be curious to hear this next one. But just from what Socrates is saying, I don't think he's really answered the.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Question that like proven to the soul is immortal. So you don't buy the whole just you're like recollecting knowledge thing and you don't.

[Graham Donaldson]

The more you talk, the more I'm remembering from what I used to know from before. So I must be immortal.

[Thomas Magbee]

The recollecting never really made a lot.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Of sense or the coming out of opposites, like, because there's death, there must be life. And so they, and they generate each other. So we must be coming out of death. And that means that the soul is immortal.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, that's silly.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, I also think that's a bit silly also because like, yeah, even there he's making a mistake. Because warmth and cold, yes, they generate from each other, but it doesn't mean that when it's cold there's any warmth left.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

It is always Hot in Texas.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes. There doesn't have to or, like, absolute zero.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

At that point, nothing is moving. There is no warmth left. Yes. Warmth will come back from it, but that doesn't mean that anything has remained during that period.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Maybe energy, I don't know. Anyway, he doesn't do a good job here. So his answer is to tell this long story about how he got interested in natural philosophy. He's like, I wanted to know why things were the way they were. So I got looking into natural philosophy. So I looked at, you know, why a tree grows and why when I put two things together, one plus one is two. And I got into all these things and I like. And this is, I think, why he ends up in the place he does, as opposed to Aristotle, is that he's like, I became convinced that no one knew what they were talking about, right? So two things separately are one. They have the essence of one. How does their essence change? When I put them next to each other, they're still one.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They each have an essence of one, but now they're supposed to have an essence of two. I don't really understand this. And say there's a third thing. Yeah, say there's a third thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, the third thing is them together. Is the third thing.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay, sure you are. You're blowing holes in his argument already. Donaldson.

[Thomas Magbee]

We haven't even gotten through.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

We haven't even gotten through. So he says, okay, say I've got two friends, and one is greater and one is lesser. And it's by, like, about a head's worth of height, right? One's taller, one's shorter. Gus, is it their heads that make them taller? No, that'd be silly. So he goes on to say. He's like, I don't understand why things are the way they are. And there was this guy that said he knew, and so I went to hear him. And so I'd be like, he says, if I was sitting here, that man Anaxagoras would have told me that the reason I'm here is because molecules make up my flesh. And then my flesh is bound together on my bones, and then my bones are there. And, like, he would have sort of described what I'm made of, but he wouldn't have told me why I'm actually here, which is that I've been condemned by the jury to death. He wouldn't have given me that answer. He's like, so I swept it all away. These idiots don't know what they're talking about. And he's like, the only cause for things is when they participate in a principle that is their true cause. So, for example, things are beautiful when they participate in the essence of beauty, right? So this is why I think Plato has flipped that on its head. He says, I have to know the principles first because they are the causes for what our eyes see.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If I know what the essence of beauty is, then when I see something beautiful, I know it is that way because it's participating in the essence of beauty, right? So he inverts, like what. What. What Aristotle says, which is, I need a depth of experience, and that is where I get my principle. He says, no, our principle is the cause for what you see with your eyeballs. Does that make sense?

[Graham Donaldson]

Makes sense.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Which is why you got to get out of the cave.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Which is why you got to get out of the cave. Okay? He also has a few other principles. So opposites cannot participate in essential opposites. So while water comes from snow and snow from water, heat and cold cannot admit of their opposites. So cold cannot admit of heat, heat cannot admit of cold, and they destroy each other. Same with something like odd and even.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Odd will have no even with it. Like, it won't. Won't accept it. Right? The number three, it would rather be destroyed than have any evenness in it. Same with the number four. It would rather be destroyed than have any oddness. So they cannot. It will suffer annihilation rather than become its opposite. So heat will destroy itself before it becomes cold. Guys with me so far?

[Graham Donaldson]

Mm.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

But if odds get an even, they're gonna be still odd.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Huh?

[Graham Donaldson]

If odds get an even, they are odd. So if an odd like three accepts an even like two, they are still an odd.

[Thomas Magbee]

But the three is not even. Like, that's like the three cannot be made to be even without destroying the three.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes, that Right. I can. I can have A four hanging out nearby and still be odd. But I will, like that Three will never become Even himself. And he says this is true even of the qualities that it brings. So a three has his essential three ness, and one of his qualities is that he's odd. And so he would rather suffer annihilation than have that quality changed. Are you with me so far?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yes.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay, so he equates this to life and death. He says the soul, the thing that animates the body, is the soul. Its opposite is death. And so the soul, because it is a lifebringer, will not admit of death, but would rather retreat. So the very essence of the soul can never Admit death and so it is eternal.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Does that kind of make sense? So like three it could never. It brings oddness. That's what it does. Three brings oddness, so it can never admit of evenness. So three must be an eternally odd thing, just like the soul is an eternally life having thing. Does that kind of make sense? What do you guys think of this argument?

[Graham Donaldson]

But. But the three can be destroyed.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay, this is. I think you've keyed in on exactly why I think this argument doesn't hold.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Soul as an idea.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Cannot admit of death.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

But individual tokens of souls can.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And that's the thing. I think he misunderstands.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe soul is a type.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Soul as a type is a thing that is alive.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But an individual soul, like an individual number three, if I add something else to it, is now a number four, that three is gone. The idea of three still exists. The idea of oddness still exists. Sure. The essence of it's still there, but that three has died. Right. And with. With him, I think he's doing this weird thing where he flips, flip flops between the essence of something, an idea of something, and the actual concreteness of it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Token and type of it.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, the token and type. So my soul, even though it brought life to my body, when I die, maybe my soul is destroyed. But the essence of what a soul is, something that gives life, lives on. So the idea of soul is immortal. The token of soul can die.

[Graham Donaldson]

Can die. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So I think he's wrong here. I think he does this a few times where he sort of flip flops between the concrete and the theoretical.

[Graham Donaldson]

Unless the, like an essential part, the essential quality of soul is immortality.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah. In which case then.

[Graham Donaldson]

In which place then all the tokens are. Are immortal.

[Thomas Magbee]

They all inherit that attribute.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And that may. That actually may be his argument.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

What does it say again?

[Graham Donaldson]

Is that the, the inherent necessary quality of soul is immortality.

[Thomas Magbee]

So because we have souls, that thing is immortal.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's like the, the inherent essence of three is not immortality. The inherent essence of three is oddness, but the inherent essence of soul is immortality. Therefore the tokens.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The token souls I can be by that.

[Graham Donaldson]

So it's. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So yeah, again, this is a complicated bit. And he says, so he says like even, odd and three and two. So often it's hard to keep things straight. But it's okay.

[Thomas Magbee]

Like this is maybe the best of the ones we've gotten. And does he. Are there any more or is this.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That's it. This is this is, I think, his best argument, if he is actually concocting it, like Donaldson says.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wait, so his conclusion is the soul's immortal because it's immortal?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wow.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, bruh.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes, that's it. Okay, so we've wonder.

[Graham Donaldson]

They wanted to kill him.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The soul is immortal.

[Thomas Magbee]

But is this the one that ends with, like, it kind of doesn't matter, like, whether I persist or not, like, I lived a good life. Is that this dialogue, or is that a different one?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

It must be a different one. I don't think it's this one. He is fully convinced he's going to a better place and that the soul is immortal, so he's not worried about it.

[Graham Donaldson]

He gets to, like, bother Ajax about justice and dying, as opposed to, like, talking to, like, the people here. Anytus.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the rest of the dialogue is pretty strange. I mean, I know that, like, this is standard Plato, Socrates stuff. And then the rest of the dialogue, somebody asks him, like, what Earth is. Like, he's like, let me tell you, buddy, it's weirder than you think. I have it on pretty good authority that we all live only in a portion of the Earth, and the Earth is way bigger and way weirder than you think it is. And really, we're like frogs in a pond that live only on, like, a one little tiny edge. But if we could bring ourselves to the surface and look at the real world, ooh, buddy, that'd be different. So he says, if we could. That's awesome.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't want to die now. I want to go explore that thing.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I know. So he says if we could swim to the top of our atmosphere, we would get a look at the real heavens and Earth. And so. And then he kind of does a weird description of how the rivers work. They, like, see, saw through the Earth, as, like, sometimes they flow in and sometimes they bubble back out, and they kind of go back and forth between these two things, all of which is, some of it is kind of fun and accurate, some of it is very strange. But what I found most interesting is that he gives a description that was very clearly taken by Dante, I think. So listen to this and see what you recognize. He's talking about the rivers. And he says, now, these rivers are many and mighty and diverse. There are four principal ones, of which. And he's talking about underground rivers. So all these things flow through the Earth, of which the greatest and outermost is that called Oceanus. So the ocean river goes around the Earth, which flows around the Earth in a circle and in the opposite direction flows Acheron, which passes under the earth through desert places into the Acherusian Lake. This is the lake to the shores of which the souls of the many go when they are dead. And after waiting an appointed time, which is to some a longer and to some a shorter time, they are sent back to be born again. Animals. The third river passes out between the two and near the place of outlet, pours into a vast region of fire and forms a lake larger than the Mediterranean Sea, boiling with water and mud and proceeding muddy and turbid and winding about the Earth, comes, among other places, to the extremities of the Acherusian Lake, but mingles not with the waters of the lake, and after making many coils about the Earth, plunges into Tartarus at a deeper level. This is called the Paraphlegethon, as the stream is called, which throws up jets of fire in different parts of the Earth. So can you tell me about the rivers in Dante?

[Graham Donaldson]

I cannot.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, because you do Purgatory more than.

[Graham Donaldson]

You do, and we barely. Yeah, I haven't taught it in a couple years.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay. So in Dante's Inferno, the outermost river is called the Acheron, right? Which is where the souls all kind of gather and then have to go over. The river of Fire is the Flegethon, which is where all the tyrants live, right, in this sort of like boiling blood. All three of these kind of go down to the very bottom. The fourth river, to go back to the text, the fourth river goes out on the opposite side and falls first of all into a wild and savage region which is all of a dark blue color, like lapis lazuli. And this is that river which is called the Stygian river, and falls into the. Into and forms the Lake Styx. And after falling into the lake and receiving strange powers in the waters, passes under the Earth, winding round in the opposite direction, and comes near the Acherusian Lake from the opposite side to the Flegethon. And the water of this river, too, mingles with no other, but flows round in a circle and falls into Tartarus over against the Paraphlegethon. And the name of the river, as the poets say, is Cocytus. And so that is like that for Dante, that's the very bottom. So you have the three rivers, the Acheron, the Fledg A Thon, the Styx, the River of Mud, and Cocytus, the very bottom. Such is the nature of the other world. And when the dead arrive at the place to which the genius of each severally guides them. First of all, they have sentence passed upon them as they have lived well and piously, or not. And those who appear to have lived neither well nor ill, go to the river Acheron, and embarking in any vessels which they may find, are carried in them to the lake where they will dwell, and are purified of their evil deeds. And having suffered the penalty of the wrongs which they have done to others, they are absolved and receive the rewards of their good deeds, each of them according to their deserts. But those who appear to be incurable by reason of the greatness of their crimes, who have committed many and terrible deeds of sacrilege, murders, foul and violent, or the like such, are hurled into Tartarus, which is their suitable destiny, and they never come out. Those again who have committed crimes which altogether great, are not irremediable, who, in a moment of anger, for example, have done some violence to a father or a mother and have repented for the remainder of their lives, or who have taken the life of another under the like extenuating circumstances. These are plunged into Tartarus, the pains of which they are compelled to undergo for a year. But at the end of the year, the wave cast them forth, mere homicides by way of cocytus, parricides and matricides by the Flegethon. And they are born to the Acherusian lake. And there they lift up their voices and call upon the victims whom they have slain or wronged, to have pity on them and to be kind to them, and let them come out into the lake. And if they prevail, then they come forth and cease from their troubles. But if not, they are carried back again into Tartarus and from thence into the rivers, unceasingly, until they obtain mercy from those whom they have wronged, for that is the sentence inflicted upon them by their judges. All right. And it goes on and on, but.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is very silly.

[Thomas Magbee]

Why?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Why?

[Graham Donaldson]

Like, what does this have to do with the soul?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

It doesn't. And he's just cooking stuff up. Like, at this point, it feels like he's just like, this is what the afterworld looks like.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's crazy.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And I found it interesting just because.

[Graham Donaldson]

You know, Dante continues on in the tradition.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. Dante very, very clearly just sort of wholesale lifted this stuff.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And put it into the Inferno. I never knew the source for that before. I thought he cooked all of it up, but a lot of it is just full on taken from here.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Interesting.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So if you're a big Dante fan. So I know a few of them in this school. Then you might want to read Fato because there's a little bit at the end that's interesting. After this Socrates, they come and tell him, hey, it's time to take your poison. But so. And he's like, oh, how does it work? And they say, well, you get up and walk around. After that, your legs get heavy and you lay down and the poison will take hold. And he's like, okie doke. They bring it to him and there's no ceremony. He just goes, okay. Pounds it.

[Thomas Magbee]

Wow.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Walks around, lays down.

[Graham Donaldson]

Did he say something about like, a buddy owes him money?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He says, I owe a. A rooster to Asclepius.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And then he dies. And it's actually I reading it. And this is kind of silly. I almost teared up a little bit. Like, it's a really kind of romantic, touching ending right where everyone is there. They are all really weepy. But he is just living his life in full confidence that the soul is immortal, even though his arguments are not that great, and that he will live on a better life afterwards. So that's Phaedo. I'm. I'm.

[Graham Donaldson]

I feel something to that. Like, is there something to the fact that the arguments aren't all that great, but he still has the, the like, conviction. The conviction and the faith in it.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's bad, right?

[Graham Donaldson]

Is it?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, it's a weak argument, but he still believes it. That doesn't seem like a good thing, I don't think.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I think he has the right opinion. Like, the soul is immortal.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay, but why.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So what you're talking about is. Wasn't it in Mino that we talked about, like, knowledge is either remembered but cannot be acquired, and it's just right opinion and you sort of luck into it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So in this way, Socrates is like the blessed because he just sort of like, got lucky. He just kind of lucked into the right opinion, but didn't actually get there by the white right roads. I think that's kind of wonderful.

[Graham Donaldson]

I think so. I mean, yeah, it's like the, the right opinion comes from the people who've told you about something. Right. Like, didn't we use the example of the person who told you about the. The shop?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They know what's right, but they don't act. They've never actually been there themselves.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

They just.

[Graham Donaldson]

They just have heard of it from, from people who have not been lying to them.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And. Yeah. Anyway, I just wonder if. If that's. If Socrates is aware of that, or if he really does think his arguments are really good.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Well, I mean, I think not only he does, but everyone who was there was like, oh, yes, you are obviously correct. By the end, they're like, you've nailed it. The soul is immortal. I am fully convinced. I'm still not convinced by his arguments. Yeah, I think he does a lot of weird conflating and. And this is like. And you know what, listener. So on one hand, I'm sort of sorry for having wasted your time with a bunch of bad arguments about how the soul is immortal. On the other hand, I think it's important to see the progression from Plato, who is just beginning to sort of search out real philosophy. They're all sort of stumbling around into something like Aristotle and then Thomas Aquinas, who builds this massive, you know, like, logical castle. So it's. It's interesting to see the progression when they're. They haven't necessarily fleshed out all the rules of logic yet. And then he sort of arrives.

[Graham Donaldson]

It may be worth listener to go seek out AJ's episodes on De Anima, because that's where he talks about Aristotle's.

[Thomas Magbee]

View of the soul, which we also found wacky.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Which was also very wacky.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So, you know, I mean, just because it's a classic doesn't mean that it's something you should buy wholesale. But it's where stuff comes from in the Western Canada. I think that's the other value to it is knowing where Dante cooked up his Four Rivers from.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Knowing that he didn't just come up with that off the top of his head. He sort of. This idea was in the ether already and he just had to sort of take it and reapply it and there you get another classic. So I like it. Yeah, that's it.

[Thomas Magbee]

Well, this has been classical stuff. You should know. You can find us [e-mail] you can find us on Twitter x whatever, c l s S, C A L stuff. You can find us on Patreon patreon.com classicalstuff where we post our in between episodes, which we record after every one of our episodes. We're going to record one of those right now. You can send us an email theguyslassicalstuff.net or give us a call. I'm going to give AJ's personal cell phone number right now. Get ready. No. Okay. This has been classical stuff. Thanks, everyone. Bye.

[Graham Donaldson]

Ciao.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

By.