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Classical Stuff You Should Know
272: Sir Thomas More
01:01:09
Because the law almost always saves you sometimes.
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Thomas More
Foreign.
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AJ Hennenberg
Hey, everybody, and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know we're a podcast about classical things which includes books and philosophy and art from, I don't know, 100 years ago and earlier. My name is AJ Hennenberg. I'm here with.
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Autonomous Magby
You. Hey, what's going on? Hey, I'm right here.
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Thomas More
Hey, what's going on?
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Autonomous Magby
Autonomous Magby. Beep, boop. I have achieved autonomy.
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AJ Hennenberg
And Graham Donaldson.
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Thomas More
Hello. Maybe Autonomous Magby and Mayhem Donaldson. That's our nicknames. Are.
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Autonomous Magby
These are wrestling names. That was an ama question for my wife.
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AJ Hennenberg
Autonomous Magby. That rules.
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Autonomous Magby
That's good.
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AJ Hennenberg
Okay.
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Autonomous Magby
Laughing at your own joke.
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AJ Hennenberg
No, I'm laughing at you guys.
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Autonomous Magby
You guys are.
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AJ Hennenberg
It wasn't a joke. I just can't make my face. Do things today. So today we are talking about a mountaineer. It's a biography. He's not, you know, he does mountains, he does surfing, he does deserts. He's really a man for all seasons. So that's great. He can. He can do it all.
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Autonomous Magby
Yeah.
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AJ Hennenberg
He can ski. He's. He does leaf sports in the. Is there, like, a fall sport? Football. Got football. That's not really an outdoors thing.
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Autonomous Magby
Sports.
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Thomas More
Yeah.
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AJ Hennenberg
I'm killing it. He goes to watch the leaves change.
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Autonomous Magby
He likes. Yeah, I like this. Man for All Seasons. Is that what we're doing?
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Thomas More
That's what we're talking about. So we are talking about.
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AJ Hennenberg
I'm doing my best here, guys.
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Thomas More
We're talking about Sir Thomas More, and we're not really going to be talking. I mean, talking about the full historical Sir Thomas More. We're going to be talking about a play written in 1960 by Robert Bolt, who. I have no idea who that is. I mean, I know he wrote man for All Seasons. I don't know anything else that he wrote. That's not really the point. And he wrote this play called A Man for All Seasons about the death of Sir Thomas More. So I'm going to give a little bit of the historical background of what's going on and then talk a little bit about the play Thomas Moore and how Bolt, sort of what kind of man, Bolt or Thomas Moore, dies for a read, for a cause, for a belief, for a system, for embodying a certain something. And. Yeah, and so we're just gonna. I want to just. Yeah, it's a great play. We do it now in our government classes. Academy. Yeah. And I use it in our government class. We. We talk about. Well, we talk about the four eras, kind of Of. Of Western civilization, history. So we talk about antiquity, the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, and then the modern world. And in each of those quarters, we have two books. A book that kind of showcases maybe the best version of that era and then either the worst version of that era or a story that talks about, like, the transition of the era to the new one.
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Autonomous Magby
Yeah.
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Thomas More
And so man for All Seasons is the book that comes in the medieval quarter, talking about the transition from the older medieval world to the. More in the. The modern, not modern to the Enlightenment. And, and, and Thomas Moore ends up being kind of like the paradigm person of the Enlightenment. And anyway, so that's. We'll talk about that. Sir Thomas Moore was a.
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AJ Hennenberg
Not a mountaineer.
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Thomas More
Not a mountaineer, not a mountaineer. He was a statesman. He was Chancellor of England during the reign of Henry viii. And so this kind of can be not a. Not an epilogue to the War of the Roses series, but the War of the Roses was a giant mess of a couple of generations in English history. And if you're interested in it, we did a big old, long, many part series on the War of the Roses following a many long part series of the history of the Plantagenet kings. And at the end of it, it ended with the marriage of Henry VII to Elizabeth, Princess of York. And they got married together and became the house of Tudor, this new Tudor house. And their son Henry becomes king of England, Henry viii. But Henry VIII wasn't supposed to be King of England. It was supposed to be his older brother, whose name I think was Arthur, I think his name was Arthur, which would be cool because it would have been King Arthur, which is dope, but I think it was Arthur. Don't quote me on that. I'm so gonna get fact checked. But, hey, we're back. Arthur, it was an older brother, had.
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Autonomous Magby
An elder brother, Arthur, and two sisters, Margaret and Mary.
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Thomas More
Good. So Arthur, in order to sort of solidify relations with the Spanish, marries Catherine of Aragon. So Arthur and Catherine get married. Catherine, the Princess of Aragon, they get married. And so you got this, like, ascendant Spanish power. This is, you know, the, the. The 1500s in Spain is a global power. This is the era of, like, conquistadors and sailing around the world and Spanish gold and all that stuff. And then you have England, who is sort of rebuilding after this tumultuous era of the War of the Roses. They're now sort of two generations removed. But everybody remembers that if we have a weak throne, if we have a weak king, England could be set for difficulty and bloodshed and problems. So there's always that in the back of the mind that we need to have the line of succession strong, because if it's not, it just ends up being tumultuous times because everyone just. All of our grandfathers died in these wars. Right. This is in people's minds. Henry VIII is so sorry. Little Prince Arthur marries Catherine of Aragon, and then Prince Arthur dies, and Catherine, who is supposed to be queen of England and that alliance between Spain with the death of Arthur is kind of gone. And she's still young and she's still, you know, able, and she's now sort of available to be married again. And she could go off and marry somebody in France or marry somebody in Italy or who knows. Henry VII then becomes King of England. And I think lots of people know Henry viii and they know his story and they know that he had all these wives and he's the king. That is at the time of the rise of the Reformation and the Anglican Church in England. And so we'll rehash a little bit of that. But I really want to get to Thomas More. Henry VIII marries Catherine of Aragon. Now, to do this, this was a political move. Catherine was like nine years older than him, I think. And which is. Which is fine. But it does mean that her window of being able to bear children isn't as long as it could be if he was marrying somebody nine years younger than him. And having children was a needed thing in order for the security of the realm. Right. Except there was a little bit of a moral problem. You're not supposed to. In Scripture, in the Old Testament, it talks about that you should not marry your brother's widow. And the very sort of. The Church took that quite seriously and quite literally. And Catherine was not permitted to marry Henry VIII. And everybody with young Henry VII's reign, they're like, but we really, really want that Spanish alliance. And so there's not another Spanish princess kicking around. So they went to the Pope and got special dispensation of the Pope to be able for Henry VIII to marry Catherine of Aragon. So a special Pope stamp of approval. And in order, Henry VIII wrote a book basically talking about how awesome the Pope and the Church is. Now, in reality, Henry did not write this book. Thomas More wrote this book. So Thomas More wrote a book for Henry. And then. And because of this book, Henry VIII was, you know, sort of this young, powerful monarch who stands up in the world and says, the. The Pope and the Church is a supreme authority over mankind. The Church is awesome. We love the Church. Yay, Pope. And because of this, Henry is named Defender of the Faith by the Catholic Church. And as a little goodie, he gets the. The marriage okayed by the. By the papacy to marry his dead brother's widow. And Thomas Moore was heavily rumored to have been the man that Thomas Moore says he consulted. And. But it's heavily rumored that Thomas was the one that. That wrote this thing. Okay, so Henry VIII marries Catherine of Aragon. They do not get along. She is quite a bit older and she. They have a tremendous amount of difficulty having children, specifically a male heir. This is where my null. Actually, I didn't look into Catherine. I'm fairly certain that she had a daughter who survives into adulthood, but I can't remember. But anyway, no male heir. And Henry VIII was not a philosopher. Henry VIII was not a philosopher king. Henry VIII was a bit of a playboy. Henry VIII had a wandering eye. Henry viii, he loved music, he loved drinking, he loved horseback riding and hunting. Exactly. He was a bro King. He was. He was tall, he was ruddy, as the British like to say he was. He took after, let's say Edward iv, right. Who wanted to just like, where the rumor was that everybody that he, like, slept with everyone's wife in England. Right? Remember Edward iv?
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Autonomous Magby
Yeah.
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Thomas More
Yes. Henry VIII kind of took after that on that line of. Of the family. So Henry VIII was. Had a roving eye and a mounting political problem. Catherine of Aragon, who was sort of increasingly pious in her. In her, as she got older, was nine years older than him and was kind of losing, closing the window of having an heir. And then Henry began to, well, decide that he was going to secure an heir, some through some other means. And he falls in love with Anne Boleyn. Or he, Anne Boleyn catches his attention. And Anne Boleyn, probably rightly so, essentially says, like, I'm not going to give myself over to you, Henry, in full body unless I am Queen of England. And Henry's like, I'mma make it happen. Right? But in order to do that, he now needs to get the marriage that he got rubber stamped from the Pope annulled, which means he has to get rubber stamped from the Pope again. So he's basically having the Pope to do undo the thing that the Pope had done in the first place. And the Catholic Church refuses, mainly because Spain's like, no, don't do this. This is our alliance with England. And our, you know, our princess is not some woman to be dismissed because she is not bearing a child. She is a princess. She is royalty. You do not just, like, cast her aside because she's not fulfilling the King of England's whims. No, thank you, Catholic Church. So Spain puts pressure on the papacy not to do it, and the papacy is not going to do it. All right. Henry VIII essentially puts pressure on his realm and all his chancellors. And his. And his head chancellor at that time was Card, Cardinal Wolseley. And he. Cardinal Wolseley, he basically says, get it done. I want. I need this marriage annulled. Cardinal Wolseley tries his best. Cardinal Wley cannot do it. Cardinal Wolseley dies kind of outside of Henry VII's favor. The person who then becomes Chancellor is Thomas Moore. I'm just going to tell you the story, the history story of it, and then we can get into the play.
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AJ Hennenberg
Sounds good.
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Thomas More
Thomas More becomes Chancellor. Henry VIII asks Thomas More to get this thing done. Thomas More does not agree. It does not. Does not want to do this. He is not. He does not think that the divorce should happen. He thinks that the Pope. If the Pope has already given permission to marry the brother's wife, the Pope definitely should not give permission to a null. A marriage. You annul a marriage only under very certain circumstances, that the marriage has not been consummated and cannot be consummated. There's all sorts of, like, legal things. And knowing Henry, like, those things didn't come to pass like they had consummated the marriage. So you can't get an annulment. This is not. Yeah. So Henry Thomas More refuses it. And ultimately Henry vii, in order to get the annulment of his marriage, breaks with the Catholic Church, sets himself up as the supreme head of the Church in England and annuls his own marriage. So he sets himself up and says, like, well, we don't not. We don't need these foreign people dictating things that are going to lead England into civil war again. This could lead back into the War of the Roses because the Pope's being a ninny. I'm going to be the supreme head of the Church. And Henry was sort of politically strong enough that he could make it happen. Tons of people dissented and said this was bad. This was going to spark religious wars throughout the whole 1600s. I think the Reformation did in and of itself. And maybe we. We sort of tiptoe and dodge around, like, Reformation issues on the podcast. I don't know if we do it on purpose, but we just. Maybe we just don't find it interesting. I don't know. But. But Henry VIII annuls his own marriage. Thomas Moore resigns. The Chancellorship doesn't say why. He doesn't. He doesn't, like, publish pamphlets. He doesn't say why. Everyone knows why. But he doesn't. He doesn't say it. He resigns the chancellorship, fine. Whatever. New new chancellor is put in power, the king nulls his marriage. Catherine of Aragon is sent packing and Henry marries Anne Boleyn. She is now Queen of England. They start having kids, including a son, but that son doesn't last long. What fell over there?
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Autonomous Magby
It was a charger.
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Thomas More
Oh, I see. So Henry is now married to Emelyn and. And they have children. And Henry creates an. An oath that all of his ministers and lords and great men of the realm need to sign and swear to, saying that Anne Boleyn is queen, that my kids, that the kids that I have with Anne are the. The heirs to the throne, and that no one's going to, like, come out of the woodwork and be like, no, I'm the heir to the throne. Because this. Because your marriage to Anne was wrong. And more importantly, that you also need to swear that the marriage of Catherine of Aragon was offside and that the annulment was right and he should never have married Catherine in the first place. And essentially that the papacy, the Catholic Church, does not have authority in England to make these sorts of claims. That was what the Oath of succession meant. Well, you had to swear by it. Lots of people in English politics swear by it. And then the people that would not swear by it were considered to be treasonous. They were committing. Which means death. Right? Which means death. They were committing treason by not swearing to this. Thomas Moore is someone who does not sign the Oath of succession. He is arrested, he's put on trial and he's ultimately beheaded. That's the history of Thomas More. The, you know, the historical man Robert Bolt tells that story. So the play of a man for all season goes from basically when Henry VIII wants to. He's. He's sort of seeing Anne Boleyn in quiet and he wants to marry her. And then the end of the book is the beheading of Thomas More and Thomas More. So. All right, so let's talk a little bit about. About the character of Thomas More. The play is less about Thomas More, Catholic defender, and is more about Thomas Moore who stands up as a principled man for basically him holding to his conscience and to his beliefs against a system that is sort of basically making him go against his conscience and his beliefs. And how far are you going to take it? So the character of Thomas Moore in Robert Boltz, a man for all season. Thomas Moore is a. Is a sort of like this paragraph, this lover of law, and that. That's the big thing. So he loves law as opposed to loves, as opposed to the sort of great defender of the faith. So I want to sort of look at some of the scenes. So let's see. So the scene I want to look at is that sort of gives you an example into what more values. And that's kind of the picture I want to paint is I want to show what Robert Bolt, he holds up Thomas More as this embodiment of the individual conscience and love of the legal of law, love of the institution of law and the law's protections for the individual. And of course, you know, Thomas Moore is living in this time when everyone is just catering to the whims of the king. And whatever the king wants, the king is going to get. And there's a character in here, Thomas Cranmer, and Thomas Cramer is essentially like, if the king wants something, I'm. It is in my interest to do whatever it takes. I will step on any historical line. I will cross any line to get what the king wants, because a strong, healthy king is a strong, healthy realm, and I am a patriot for doing it. And Thomas Moore is someone that stands up and says, there are. Well, well, as we'll see in the scene, we'll see what Thomas values.
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AJ Hennenberg
So.
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Thomas More
There is. So Thomas is with his family, and his family is just letting Thomas know, like, hey, Cranmer has been asking questions about you, and we're pretty sure there's a spy in your house. And the spy is your. Is your steward. And Thomas is like, of course my steward's my spy. Of course he is like, that doesn't surprise me. That's fine. I've got nothing to hide. And then there's this young man named Richard Rich who's kind of a slimy little jerk.
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AJ Hennenberg
His name is Richie Rich.
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Thomas More
His name is Richie Rich.
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Autonomous Magby
Incredible. Great.
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Thomas More
This is a historical character, Richard Rich. He's a real person.
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AJ Hennenberg
There's really a Richie Rich.
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Thomas More
There's really a Richard Rich. And Richard Rich wants to be a big player in the world of politics, and he wants to be a mover and shaker, and he wants to play the Machiavellian game because.
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AJ Hennenberg
Is he poor?
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Thomas More
Is Richie Rich poor?
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AJ Hennenberg
Because that'd be great.
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Thomas More
He's. He wants to. He's ambitious, but he's. He's. But he's. He's someone that, like, he idolizes Thomas More because Thomas More is just and good Thomas More never takes a bribe. Thomas More believes in the law. Law. Thomas Moore believes in doing right all the time. He believes that the healthy realms is got through virtuous people. And Richard Rich wants to be employed by Thomas and Thomas refuses to employ him because he knows Richard is kind of like two faced and smarmy. He tells Richard, he's like, listen, you're not cut out for this game. Go be a. Go be a teacher. That's what he tells Richard Rich, which is very funny.
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AJ Hennenberg
That's great.
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Thomas More
He's like, go, you'd be a great teacher. Go teach kids. And Richard Rich is like, that is the lamest job I can think of. I want to be a. I want to be a big. I want to be like a Machiavellian schemer in this world anyway. So of course, who does Richard Rich gravitates toward? Richard Rich gravitates towards Thomas Kramer. And Thomas Kramer, who is like, he's playing the game of, playing the game of Thrones, playing a game of politics, is trying to suss out if Thomas Moore is going to be a problem or not. Is he going to start a rebellion or is he going to incite revolution or is he going to be, is he going to turn the king's, you know, get the king's head all twisted around because the king loves Thomas Moore but is angry at him because he won't, he won't approve of the annulment. So Richard Rich has just left the house of Thomas Moore and all the family just sort of realize that Richard Rich is dangerous to Thomas, that he is going, he's, he's a bad man. He's going to go do bad things. Okay, so here's the scene. So is it 65? It's on 65. So we've got Roper, which is Thomas Moore's son in law. We have Alice, which is Thomas Moore's daughter. And we have Margaret. No, sorry, Alice, which is Thomas Moore's wife. And we have Margaret, which is Thomas Moore's daughter. Margaret, the daughter, Alice, the wife. Roper, the son in law. So Roper and Margaret are married and then Thomas Moore.
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Autonomous Magby
Are there four people in this, there's.
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Thomas More
Four people in this scene we can do. We can conflate Alice and Margaret together maybe. Who wants to be.
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Autonomous Magby
Well, I think I'll take Alice and Margaret.
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Thomas More
Okay. A.J. you be roper.
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AJ Hennenberg
Okay.
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Thomas More
And I'll be more. So Richard Rich basically was begging Thomas and said, employ me. I will be so loyal to you. And Thomas Moore's like You couldn't have. You like you weren't even loyal. You are coming from Cranmer to me to basically tell me about Cranmer. You couldn't even be loyal to Cranmer. You're never gonna be loyal to me. And then Richard Rich leaves, and then Roper says, arrest him?
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Autonomous Magby
Yes.
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Thomas More
For what?
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Autonomous Magby
He's dangerous.
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AJ Hennenberg
For libel. He's a spy, he is.
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Autonomous Magby
Arrest him. Father, that man's bad.
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Thomas More
There's no law against that.
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AJ Hennenberg
There is. God's law.
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Thomas More
Then God can arrest him.
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AJ Hennenberg
Sophistication upon sophistication.
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Thomas More
No. Sheer simplicity. The law, Roper, the law. I know what's legal, not what's right, and I'll stick to what's legal.
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AJ Hennenberg
Then you set man's law above God's.
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Thomas More
No, far below. But let me draw your attention to a fact. I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong which you find such plain sailing. I can't navigate. I'm no voyager. Ah, but in the thicket of the law. Oh, there I am, a forester. I doubt if there's a man alive who could follow me there.
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Autonomous Magby
Thank God while you talk, he's gone.
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Thomas More
And go he should, if he was the devil himself until he broke the law.
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AJ Hennenberg
So now you'd give the devil benefit of the law.
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Thomas More
Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get at the devil?
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AJ Hennenberg
I'd cut down every law in England to do that.
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Thomas More
Oh. And when the last law was down and the devil turned round on you, where would you hide Roper? The laws being all flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast. Man's laws, not God's. And if you cut them down and you're just the man to do it, do you really think that you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety's sake.
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AJ Hennenberg
I have long suspected this. This is the golden calf. The law is your God.
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Thomas More
Oh, Roper, you're a fool. God's my God, but I find him rather too subtle. I don't know where he is nor what he wants. All right, well, we'll stop there. So fun. It is so fun.
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AJ Hennenberg
Okay, super fun.
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Thomas More
So just in that little scene, we get a little bit of a picture as to what Thomas Moore is. So if you were to describe to me, like, what Thomas Moore values just from that scene, what do we got?
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Autonomous Magby
I say the law. I don't know if that's very descriptive, like process. He cares about doing things the right way. It's like a blindness of who's impacted. It's like the method is all that matters.
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Thomas More
That's right.
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AJ Hennenberg
He's not about vigilantism. He's like, you can't start taking the law into your own hands because then you'll have no place to hide. And I think deep down he sees that the law is sprung from God somewhere.
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Thomas More
Yeah. Getting into sort of his legal. And I think it's fair to say that even the historical Thomas Moore would. Would definitely plant the justification of man's law on earth coming from a natural law philosophy that it comes from God. I think Robert Bolt tries to paint Thomas More a little bit more, tries to sort of move him away from a little. Away from sort of a Catholic thinker, a Christian thinker, to sort of like kind of this. I don't know. Well, I don't want to debate Robert Bolt's intentions with Thomas Moore, but. Yeah, but Thomas Moore, I think that Thomas, you're right in saying that he is someone that believes in the system of it. Whereas like. So Roper is a short. The Roper in this sense is a short term thinker. We have a present problem. The present problem is Richard Rich. He is a danger to us and to you. I would cut down. I would. We should go after him and arrest him. Thomas More can arrest him. He's the chancellor right now. Thomas More could arrest him and create a charge. You could say, like inciting rebel. You could give whatever. He could trump up whatever charge he wants and make Richard Rich's life miserable. And Thomas is not gonna do that.
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AJ Hennenberg
But then someone could trump up something against him that has a little bit more power.
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Thomas More
So Thomas is like, until he breaks the law, I'm not gonna do anything. And then that famous back and forth, you would give the devil the benefit of the law. And Thomas More says, yes, for my own safety sake. This country is planted with thick with laws from coast to coast, which is such a great line. And we hide in the law. This is what the law is for, is for individual men to be protected and to hide in. It protects us presumably from the whims of like a Henry viii, from the whims of people who see the law as an obstacle to brush aside for their own desire. The law sort of needs to stand in face of that in order to be. In order to protect individuals. So.
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AJ Hennenberg
Well, yeah, if everybody in power sweeping laws aside all the time, then laws aren't laws.
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Thomas More
They don't anything then they don't do anything. And then you don't have a society.
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AJ Hennenberg
You don't have protections as an individual. For sure.
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Thomas More
Yes. So Thomas More is the lover of this institution of law and as opposed to someone like in the play, like a Thomas Cranmer who is whatever the king wants, the king gets. And I need to be buddies with if I can like please the king, it'll be good for everybody. Whereas Thomas More says it's good for everybody if we maintain the law, if we sort of have this standard of law as opposed to have a happy king. And Roper wants. Sees a short term problem and sees a what would be an easy solution to get rid of that problem. But it would create a long term, it would cut down the law. And then Thomas Moore is right to say it and then where would you stand when you got to the devil and the devil turned around on you? Like then what are you going to stand on if you've cut down all the laws? The place where we're supposed to hide. No, I would not arrest him. I would not break the law for my own sake because I need the law to protect me down the line, says Thomas. All right, so that's one little example of Thomas's love of the law. Thomas is eventually refuses to sign the Oath of Succession and is arrested for it and is thrown into jail and his house, his home is stripped and Thomas. And so, and Thomas maintains that he has not broken the law because people have said with you not swearing to the oath of succession, your silence is speaking. And Thomas Morris says the law in England is not. Silence begets disagreement or implies disagreement. In fact, the law is silence implies consent. So he says, you should take that. My silence is in fact consent and I shouldn't be in jail for this. And they're like, no, the king wants you to sign the thing. And he says, I'm not going to sign it. And they say why? And Thomas More says, I'm not going to tell you why now. Why Thomas? Everyone knows why. Thomas More is not going to do it, but Thomas More is going to hold on to onto the why. So let's maybe look at another little scene. Let's look at the scene when Thomas is in, is in jail. Let's see if I can find it. Okay, let's see if I can find it here in jail. Sorry, I'm. I didn't, I wasn't planning on doing this scene, but. But let's do it. So go to page, gentlemen, let's go to page 129.
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AJ Hennenberg
I'm there.
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Thomas More
All right, so we have. This is. Thomas Moore is in jail and Cromwell. I said Thomas Cranmer. I, I got that wrong. Cromwell is the, is the, the antagonist in here. Kramer is a character, but he's just a bishop. Cromwell is the, is the man and main antagonist. So on page 29 we'll have more. I'll be more. AJ can you be Cromwell?
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AJ Hennenberg
Sure.
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Thomas More
You are the prosecutor. You are sort of. You are questioning me as a prisoner. And Thomas, will you be Norfolk?
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Autonomous Magby
Yes.
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Thomas More
You are Thomas's long term friend. You're a great duke. You're not a, you're, you're a hunter, you're a. You're a. What you love to do is you love to breed dogs. That's your life's great passion, is dog breeding. Thank you. You do not have a legal mind. And you think, you think Thomas is kind of being silly, just like, sign the oath, get on with your life, let's go breed some dogs. Like, what are we doing? You're being such a ninny, Thomas, by not swearing to the Oath of Succession.
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AJ Hennenberg
All right, wait, so who am I?
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Thomas More
You're a Cromwell.
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AJ Hennenberg
Cromwell. And it seems like Cromwell wants him to sign.
- [29:32]
Thomas More
Oh, he trouble wants him to sign because that then is. He's basically then broken Thomas More. And the King wants Thomas on his side. The King really respects Thomas. So the king, for all of Henry VIII is a weird dude in that he wanted what he wanted and he wanted to be with Anne Boleyn, but he did. He wanted everybody to tell him that he was actually right, theologically speaking, and that marrying Anne Boleyn actually is the Christian thing to do. And you never should have divorced Catherine. You never should have been married to Catherine in the first place. And Thomas More, a good, pious legal man, is saying something that Henry doesn't want to hear. So in fact, Henry is actually. Henry would feel a lot better if Thomas told him he was doing the right thing. And if that means like forcing Thomas to do, to tell him, well, then all that's great. If I force Thomas to tell me, then Thomas Moore, the Thomas Moore is, is telling me that I'm, that I'm doing the right Christian thing, then I can sleep at night. But if Thomas Moore is in the Tower of London because he's holding out, well, then maybe he's right and I'm wrong and I'm going to go to hell. And like Henry VIII is like, he wants uniformity of opinion. He wants everybody to basically, you know, he's deeply insecure in this kind of thing. So Cromwell's kind. Cromwell is doing this because he wants to please the king, and the king's like. Get Thomas to sign the oath. Thomas is in jail for it. The king does not want Cromwell to torture him. Cromwell would be fine with that. But the king wants the Oath of succession sworn to. All right, so we're on page 129, Cromwell. We'll start with holding up that he's showing the act of Succession. So, Cromwell, it is the act of Succession.
- [31:21]
AJ Hennenberg
It is the act of Succession. These are the names of those who have sworn to it.
- [31:25]
Thomas More
I have, as you say, seen it before.
- [31:27]
AJ Hennenberg
Will you swear to it?
- [31:28]
Thomas More
No.
- [31:29]
Autonomous Magby
Thomas, we must know plainly.
- [31:30]
AJ Hennenberg
Your Grace, please.
- [31:32]
Autonomous Magby
Master Cromwell.
- [31:33]
AJ Hennenberg
I beg your grace's pardon.
- [31:35]
Autonomous Magby
Thomas, we must know plainly whether you recognize the offspring of Queen Anne as heirs to his Majesty.
- [31:42]
Thomas More
The king in parliament tells me that they are. Of course I recognize them.
- [31:45]
Autonomous Magby
Will you swear that you do?
- [31:46]
Thomas More
Yes.
- [31:47]
Autonomous Magby
Then why won't you swear to the act?
- [31:50]
AJ Hennenberg
Because there is more than that in the Act.
- [31:53]
Autonomous Magby
Is that it?
- [31:55]
Thomas More
Yes.
- [31:56]
Autonomous Magby
Then we must find out what it is in the act that he objects to.
- [31:59]
AJ Hennenberg
Brilliant. God's wounds.
- [32:02]
Thomas More
And then crammer comes in. He says, you, Grace, may I try? So let's jump ahead from. From Cranmer coming in. Actually, A.J. just pretend to be crammer.
- [32:11]
AJ Hennenberg
Okay. Your grace, may I try?
- [32:14]
Autonomous Magby
Certainly. I've no pretension to be an expert in police work.
- [32:18]
AJ Hennenberg
Sir Thomas, it states in the preamble that the king's former marriage to the Lady Catherine was unlawful, she being previously his brother's wife and the Pope having no authority to sanction it. Is that what you deny? Is that what you dispute? Is that what you are not sure of?
- [32:34]
Autonomous Magby
Thomas, you insult the king and his counsel in the person of the Lord Archbishop.
- [32:38]
Thomas More
I insult no one. I will not take the oath. I will not tell you why. I will not.
- [32:43]
Autonomous Magby
Then your reasons must be treasonable, not must be. Maybe it's a fair assumption.
- [32:50]
Thomas More
The law requires more than an assumption. The law requires a fact.
- [32:55]
AJ Hennenberg
I cannot judge your legal standing in the case. But until I know the ground of your objections, I can only guess your spiritual standing, too.
- [33:03]
Thomas More
If you're willing to guess at that. Your grace, it should be a small matter to guess my objections. And then Cromwell has enough of this and comes in.
- [33:10]
AJ Hennenberg
You do have objections to the act.
- [33:12]
Autonomous Magby
Well, we know that, Cromwell.
- [33:14]
Thomas More
You don't. My lord, you may suppose I have objections. All you know is that I will not swear to it from sheer delight to give you trouble. It might be.
- [33:22]
Autonomous Magby
Is it material why you won't?
- [33:24]
Thomas More
It is most material. For refusing to swear, my goods are forfeit and I am condemned to life imprisonment. You cannot lawfully harm me further. But if you were right in supposing I had reasons for refusing, and right again in supposing my reasons to be treasonable, the law would let you cut my head off.
- [33:41]
Autonomous Magby
Oh, yes.
- [33:43]
AJ Hennenberg
Oh, well done, Sir Thomas. I've been trying to make that clear to his Grace for some time.
- [33:48]
Autonomous Magby
Oh, confound all this. I'm not a scholar, as Master Cromwell never tires of pointing out. And frankly, I don't know whether the marriage was lawful or not. But dammit, Thomas, look at those names. You know those men. Can't you do what I did and come with us for fellowship?
- [34:07]
Thomas More
And when we stand before God and you are sent to paradise for doing according to your conscience and I am damned for not doing according to mind, will you come with me for fellowship?
- [34:17]
AJ Hennenberg
So those of us whose names are there are damned? Sorry for those of us whose names are there are damned. Sir Thomas.
- [34:23]
Thomas More
I don't know. Your Grace, I have no window to look into another man's conscience. I condemn no one.
- [34:28]
AJ Hennenberg
Then the matter is capable of question.
- [34:30]
Thomas More
Certainly.
- [34:31]
AJ Hennenberg
But that you owe your allegiance to your king is not capable of question. So weigh a doubt against a certainty and sign.
- [34:38]
Thomas More
Some men think the earth is round and others think it is flat. It is a matter capable of question. But if it is flat, will the King's command make it round? And if it is round, will the King's command flatten it? No, I will not sign.
- [34:50]
AJ Hennenberg
Then you have more regard to your own doubt than you have to his command?
- [34:54]
Thomas More
For myself, I have no doubt.
- [34:56]
AJ Hennenberg
No doubt of what?
- [34:57]
Thomas More
No doubts of my ground for refusing this oath. Grounds? I will tell to the King alone, and which you, Master secretary, will not trick out of me.
- [35:05]
Autonomous Magby
Thomas.
- [35:06]
Thomas More
Oh, gentlemen. Can't I go to bed?
- [35:08]
AJ Hennenberg
You don't seem to appreciate the seriousness of your position.
- [35:10]
Thomas More
I defy anyone to live in that cell for a year and not appreciate the seriousness of his position.
- [35:16]
AJ Hennenberg
Yet the state has harsher punishments.
- [35:18]
Thomas More
Okay. And then we'll move on. And then Cromwell, sort of, oh, you.
- [35:21]
AJ Hennenberg
Gotta read the next line.
- [35:21]
Thomas More
It's so good. Fine. You threaten like a dockside bully. Yeah, yeah, that's good. And he says, how should I threaten? And more says, like a minister of state, you should threaten with justice.
- [35:33]
AJ Hennenberg
So good.
- [35:34]
Thomas More
Yeah. Okay. So again we see like Thomas is not going to swear to it. Thomas realizes that they can't do anything legally to him other than what they've done, which is imprison him. Unless they have clear motives, unless they have clear motive. And he's not going to tell his motive. He's not going to discharge his soul to them and tell them the reason why he's not going to assigned, which is he does not agree that the, that the Pope he, he does not agree in the, the lines that says the Pope has no authority and that the marriage was in fact a null. Doesn't agree with it. But he's not going to, he's not going to say about it. Thomas Moore. There's other scenes when he is talking to I think either Norfolk or maybe even to his son in law Roper, when Thomas Moore says, it's not the question that I believe it, it's more the question that I believe it. It's like so he's saying. It's almost like the thing itself is not a debate. What's that debate right now is does this like, does the state have the authority to force a man to give up his word that goes against his conscience. Later on, his daughter comes to his jail cell and she begs him and she says, father, why won't you, why won't you swear? And Thomas More says, a man's life, a man's, his word is like a man's self that he holds in his hands like, with like a, like a, like water. And he says, and if I, if I give up myself, I open my hands and how am I supposed to gather myself back again? In other words, like if I say and I put on the record something out there that I do not believe to be true and I'm for a political reason, for my own self preservation, for anything. He basically has this idea that like how can I stand before God and, and have any standing with God? Like that example. He said, you are gonna, you stand before God and he's gonna let you in because you did according to your conscience. And I went outside of my conscience and I'm going to be condemned for that. It's a condemnable act. So. And so Thomas Moore holds. So what? Where's Thomas Moore going to hide? Thomas Moore is going to hide in the law. Okay. Eventually Thomas Moore is arrested. He's arrested. Eventually Thomas Moore is put on trial for treason because slimy Richard Rich perjures himself. And slimy freaking Richie Rich dude. So slimy Richard Rich tells to the court something untrue. He says that Thomas Moore told me that the, that the, you know, that the, the parliament did not have the, the competence to be Able to do this kind of thing, blah, blah, blah. He purges himself, and then Thomas Moore is condemned to death. We. Maybe we even look at that scene in here because it's so fun. Let's see. Oh, before I move on here, that line that was talking about when he's talking to his daughter about. About taking an oath. This is what Thomas Moore says. When a man takes an oath, Meg, he's holding his own self in his own hands like water. And if he opens his fingers, then he needn't hope to find himself again. Some men aren't capable of this, but I'd be loath to think your father one of them. And then Margaret says, in any state that was half good, you would be raised high up, not here for what you've done already. It's not your fault the state's three quarters bad. Then if you elect to suffer for it, you elect yourself a hero. And then Thomas More says, look, if we lived in a state where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us good and greed would make us saintly, and we live like animals or angels in the happy land that needs no heroes. But since in fact we see that avarice, anger, envy, pride, sloth, lust and stupidity commonly profit far beyond humility, chastity, fortitude, justice and thought, and have to choose to be human at all, why then perhaps we must stand fast a little even at the risk of being heroes. So. So let's look at the scene where Thomas Moore is in jail or he's in trial. So Cromwell basically says, your silence. Thomas Moore is speaks. That's the case. He makes your silence speaks. And your spy, the speaking silence, is that you are won't sign the oath of succession because you don't believe in it. And that's treason. Okay, let's look at it. Page 154, gentlemen.
- [40:01]
AJ Hennenberg
154.
- [40:02]
Autonomous Magby
I'm there.
- [40:03]
Thomas More
Who wants to be the slimy rich?
- [40:04]
Autonomous Magby
Me.
- [40:05]
Thomas More
Okay, you can be slimy rich. And then. AJ can you still be Cromwell?
- [40:11]
AJ Hennenberg
Sure. Okay, Cromwell. Is that the one that came in after that had the funny voice, or is that. That's.
- [40:14]
Thomas More
That's Kramer. You want to be. Cromwell is the chief bad guy.
- [40:17]
AJ Hennenberg
Okay, he's.
- [40:17]
Thomas More
Now, actually, Cromwell ends up taking Thomas Moore's position as chancellor. Lord Chancellor. Chancellor.
- [40:22]
AJ Hennenberg
Okay, so Cromwell had the, like, sassy voice.
- [40:24]
Thomas More
Not the most fun. Yeah, that's Cranmer. So fun. Historical fact. So Thomas Moore's killed Cromwell, who sort of gets on the king's good side, ends up being chancellor of England. England. He ends up getting on the King's bad side and he gets beheaded. Later in his life, Richard Rich ends up rising up to some of the highest positions in the realm, including being Lord Chancellor of the Realm. And he dies fat, old and rich in his bed. But after having perjured himself in the trial of Thomas More. That's not really historical. The perjuring Norfolk was going to be killed by Henry viii, but Henry VIII dies before Norfolk is put on trial.
- [41:02]
AJ Hennenberg
So even Henry VII killing everybody Henry VIII is killing.
- [41:05]
Thomas More
Henry VIII spins off into bloody madness as. As time goes on to try to. Just because he. He's. He just wants. He wants sort of like ultimate power in the realm.
- [41:16]
AJ Hennenberg
Were they drinking from lead pipes back?
- [41:17]
Thomas More
Yeah, exactly. Well, they were. I mean, I mean, I wonder.
- [41:20]
AJ Hennenberg
I wonder if they actually were. I know that that's true of a lot of the Roman Emperor hit madness.
- [41:23]
Thomas More
I don't think so. I mean, there was Henry vii, because of a life of flandering, was like. Was like stuffed head to toe with syphilis.
- [41:32]
AJ Hennenberg
So it's not an image I like.
- [41:34]
Thomas More
Yeah, well, like a big stuffed bear. Yeah. Poor guy. Anyway, so itchy dude in later years. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Richard Rich is being sworn in. So, Rich, start with the I do solemnly swear.
- [41:47]
Autonomous Magby
I do solemnly swear that the evidence I shall give before the court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
- [41:53]
AJ Hennenberg
So help me God, Sir Richard.
- [41:54]
Autonomous Magby
So help me God.
- [41:56]
Thomas More
Take her. Stand there, Sir Richard.
- [41:57]
AJ Hennenberg
That's Norfolk Now, Rich, on 12th of March, you were at the Tower?
- [42:02]
Autonomous Magby
I was.
- [42:02]
AJ Hennenberg
With what purpose?
- [42:03]
Autonomous Magby
I was sent to carry away the prisoner's books.
- [42:06]
AJ Hennenberg
Did you talk with the prisoner?
- [42:07]
Autonomous Magby
Yes.
- [42:08]
AJ Hennenberg
Did you talk about the King's supremacy of the Church?
- [42:10]
Autonomous Magby
Yes.
- [42:11]
AJ Hennenberg
What did you say?
- [42:13]
Autonomous Magby
I said to him, supposing there was an act of Parliament to say that I, Richard Rich, were to be king, would not you, Master Moore, take me for king? That I would, he said, for then you would be king?
- [42:24]
AJ Hennenberg
Yes.
- [42:26]
Autonomous Magby
Is Richard still. Is rich?
- [42:28]
Thomas More
Yeah, Richard is still rich.
- [42:29]
Autonomous Magby
Then he said, the prisoner, yes, my lord, but I will put you a higher case. He said, how if there were an act of Parliament to say that God should not be God.
- [42:38]
Thomas More
That is true, says Moore. And then you said, silence. Continue.
- [42:42]
Autonomous Magby
I said, ah, but I will put you a middle case. Parliament has made our King head of the Church. Why will you not accept him? Well, then he said, parliament had no power to do it.
- [42:54]
Thomas More
Repeat the prisoner's words.
- [42:56]
Autonomous Magby
He said, parliament has not the competence or words to that effect.
- [43:02]
AJ Hennenberg
He denied the title.
- [43:03]
Thomas More
He did in good Faith, Rich, I am sorrier for your perjury than my peril.
- [43:10]
Autonomous Magby
Norfolk, do you deny this?
- [43:12]
Thomas More
Yes. My Lords, If I were a man who heeded not the taking of an oath, you know well I need not be here now. I will take an oath. If what Master Rich has said is true, then I pray I may never see God in the face. Which I would not say, were it otherwise, for anything on earth that is not evidence. Is it probable. Is it probable that after so long a silence on this, the very point so urgently sought of me, I should open my mind to such a man as that?
- [43:46]
AJ Hennenberg
Do you wish to modify your testimony?
- [43:49]
Autonomous Magby
No, Secretary.
- [43:50]
Thomas More
And then we're gonna skip at the part where there are two other men. And then. So Thomas Moore is. Then. Is. Then is condemned on. So let's stay on that same page. He's condemned to treason. And then they said, do you have anything else to add? And then Thomas More says, to what purpose? I am a dead man. You have your desire of me. What you have hunted me for is not my actions, but the thoughts of my heart. It is a long road you have opened. For first men will disclaim their hearts and presently they will have no hearts. God help the people who statesmen. Walk your road. And then Thomas Moore is going to Thomas More than actually when he sees Richard Rich walk by, he sees that Richard Rich is wearing a chain of office. And Thomas says, can I talk to the witness? And they said, yes. And Thomas goes and he says, rich, what's that chain of office you're wearing? And Richard Rich says, oh, I'm the. I'm the arch Secretary, the Attorney General for Wales, which was the office he got for perjuring as a. As a. As a goodie. And Thomas More says the great line for Wales. Why, Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world but for Wales, which is such a great line.
- [45:10]
AJ Hennenberg
And then even the subtext exit Rich, stiff faced, but infrangibly dignified.
- [45:15]
Thomas More
And then Thomas More is condemned for this and he eventually discharges his mind and he says that I've been the King's true subject, and I pray for him and all the realm. I do no harm, I say no harm. I think none harm. And if this be not enough to keep a man alive in good faith, I long not to live. I have. I have since I came into prison, been several times in such a case that I thought to die within the hour. And I thank our Lord I was never sorry for it, but rather sorry when it passed. And Therefore my poor body is at the King's pleasure. Would God my, would God my death might do him some good. Nevertheless, it was not for the supremacy that you have sought my blood, because I would not bend to the marriage. And then he is executed, okay? And Thomas Moore is killed. And so Thomas Moore says that line where he says that like there's another line where Thomas Moore says that it is, I'm serving the realm by being an honest man. If you populate her with liars, you are, you are sort of making disservice to the realm. So you've kind of got like this Thomas More, long term thinking about the integrity of the institution and then the short term thinking of all the people that are trying to solve the present crisis, which is the marriage and the succession. And, and, and, and, and it's true, if you don't solve the present crisis, we could be going back to the troubles of the, of the, the War of the Roses. And Thomas Moore is standing up and saying, like, people are not thinking about what precedents this is going to set in the future. That if we allow the testimony of one man who's perjuring himself to kill somebody else, and the only reason that you're killing me is not because something that I've done, but because a belief that I have that I'm not even acting on, then we are opening up something in society which is a world that I don't want to live in. And then Thomas More is beheaded, and then eventually so is Cromwell and so, and almost so is Norfolk and Richard Rich ends up becoming rich and fat and old and. Which is very, you know, sort of. There's no justice in this world, right? Henry VIII dies and he. The great irony of Henry VIII's life is that after all of that hand wringing and all of that anxiety about a male heir, his daughter becomes queen and she's one of the great queens of England, Elizabeth the First. And so anyway, so, okay, what I want to do for the last. However many. How much?
- [47:45]
AJ Hennenberg
Yeah, how are we doing on time? When did you start?
- [47:47]
Thomas More
I can't remember. What I want to do for the last little bit is I, I'm so, so Thomas Moore is getting killed. And I kind of want you to think about, like the kind of man that Thomas Moore, the kind of world that Thomas Moore is optimized for versus the kind of world that like Cromwell is optimized for. So this is a really interesting point in the history of England, and I think we've mentioned it on an in between episode before, but I kind of want to highlight that governments, societies and civilizations, as they get more complicated and bigger and educated and wealthy and consolidated, do a transition from one sort of form of social unity to another form of social unity. And the story of Sir Thomas More, at least the way that Robert Bolt is telling it, is that Thomas More is kind of like at the vanguard of this new movement and he's getting killed kind of by the death throes of the old movement. And the two movements are. When you have a More, I don't even want to call it primitive, but when you have a smaller society, when, when you have like kings and lords, that is a society that is ruled based on relationships. That is a society that is held together based on the personal relationships between the King and his and his lords. Think of what Norfolk said. What was Norfolk's excuse? Or what was the reasoning that Norfolk said that Thomas More should sign the oath.
- [49:24]
Autonomous Magby
Fellowship.
- [49:24]
Thomas More
Look at all these other men. You know these men, Thomas, you know those guys. If they sign it, you should sign it. Norfolk's worldview is like all the other boys are doing it and we're together, right? This is England. We're together in this thing. Cromwell is wanting Thomas More to do it because Cromwell wants to please the king. The king is the grand Poobah. And if we can have the king be happy and healthy, then the realm is going to be happy and healthy. Like if we all get along, if our, if our relationships are sound, the realm is going to be sound. Thomas Moore is somebody that is, that is not optimized for the world of relationships. And when societies get more complicated, they have to move from that. Like kin based marriages, creating alliances. My children and your children relationship society. And that's what is the, the coherent fabric of society. I was gonna say the glue that holds the fabric together. That's not true. That's not right. That's mixing the metaphors.
- [50:24]
AJ Hennenberg
I mean, sure, it's glued fabric.
- [50:25]
Thomas More
Yeah, you can put a patch, put it back together. And Thomas More is very much a proponent of institutions. It is not a relationship between men that holds society together. It is the relationship of law and the system that it creates that holds us all together. And Thomas Moore is existing and living in a time when England is moving from one to the other. Henry VIII is a very strong willed king and is an absolute monarch in, in, you know, he actually got the church out of. He became supreme head of the Church. Like he had that political power to do that. And so his word was law. And then you Have Thomas coming in and saying that no law is higher than kings. Later on, he says that every man dies, even kings, and everyone's got to stand before God, even kings. And. And then someone comes in and says, the death of kings is not the matter at hand. But. So Thomas Moore is appealing to.
- [51:27]
AJ Hennenberg
Classic way to, like, dodge. I know, dodge an argument. That's not what we're talking about.
- [51:30]
Thomas More
But Thomas Moore is kind of this, like, yeah, he's the embodiment of the love of institutions and his death. And he. Him sort of saying, like, man, if we are a society where people are being put on trial for the beliefs in their heart as opposed to their actions, that's a society I don't want to live in. I don't know what Robert Bolt is thinking about in 1960s when he's doing this. I don't know if Robert Bolt was like, concerned about communist witch hunts or I don't know if Robert Bolt was concerned about. I don't know what. I don't know if he has any ulterior motive with this kind of thing. But to have Thomas Moore sort of say, you know, stand up and say a world where people are put on trial for their beliefs, as opposed to a world where people are put on trial for their actions is a bad world. Thomas Moore is right about that. But in a world where relationships are the. Are the social fabric, your beliefs do matter. I need to know what you think about me because I need to know whether you're going to kill me or whether you're going to be. You're not going to be for me, A.J. i need to know if we're best buddies, if we're going to be. I need to know if you got my back if we're going to be going off into battle together, if we're going to be going off into difficulties together in a world of institutions. I actually don't need to know what you think about me because all I know because all I care about is the actions that you do.
- [52:49]
AJ Hennenberg
Like, I'm a soldier and I've signed my thing and.
- [52:52]
Thomas More
Yeah, and the actions that you do are going to be regulated by the law. And so I know that because you're going to fear punishment, that I kind of know what your actions towards me are going to be. I don't care what you think about me. And that's just a different way of organizing society. And England is moving from the we need to know where people stand in terms of friendships and relationships to we all need to know what the Rules are we can play by it. And so that's why I find the story of Thomas Moore really, really sort of fascinating for that, that transition or those two types of society. I think a lot of people like the middle ages and like romanticizing like a relationship based society because it does feel like you lose something in an institution based society. It is a little more cold, it is a little more systematic. I just had this, There was a thought this Amanda, my wife, she was going to go, she was driving to Houston to pick something up that she. From an auction house. She got something in an auction and she was going to be butting up real close to the deadline. When the auction house was closing at the end of the workday, she had to drive to Houston to get it. And she called them and she's like, hey, I'm driving, I'm gonna go get this thing. If I'm a little bit late, can you just sort of like stay open? I'm on my way, I'm gonna be there. And the guy said, the auction house closes at 5. And she's like, I know, but is there any way that if I hit traffic, can I call you back and like you hold it for me? He's like, well, you have enough time to get here if the auction house closes at 5. He was being like very rule based about it. And, and I just had this thought because I was thinking about this podcast if Amanda was Liv. If we were living in a really small town where we knew the guy and she could call him up and be like, you know, you know, hey, hey, Jim, I'm coming to get that thing I got. Can you, can you stay open for me? I'm going to be there maybe 505. Jim would be like, amanda, I know you. Yeah, that's totally fine. I'll tell Margaret to keep the doors open for you. People like that kind of society because that feels more human scale. But that kind of human scale relationship doesn't work at scale. When you have big, you need to have institutions as things get bigger.
- [55:05]
AJ Hennenberg
That guy might need to send employees home.
- [55:07]
Thomas More
Exactly.
- [55:07]
AJ Hennenberg
Like he can't, he can't keep it open past five.
- [55:09]
Thomas More
He can't keep it open.
- [55:10]
AJ Hennenberg
Maybe he's got cleaners showing up, he's got parking that shuts down. Like you don't know what's going on.
- [55:13]
Thomas More
Exactly. So as society gets bigger and more complicated, you need to have institutions mediate human interactions. When society is smaller and more primitive, the mediation between human interactions can be personal relationships. Henry viii, Cromwell Norfolk. They're living in the mediated relationship world. Thomas More is living in the institution world. Thomas More getting killed is like the old world losing its functionality. Reality is changing or the times are changing and the way that we optimize society before with our relationship based structures are not going to work. As England gets more complicated and complex and we're now dealing with relationships between England and Spain and the Church. These are big, big, big scaled things and it's moving towards institutions. And so Thomas Moore's love of the law is that kind of like he's the embodiment of that. In other words. I guess what I'm trying to say is Thomas Moore's worldview wins out in the end. England does move towards institutions. The west moves towards institutions. We still live in a world of institutions. They don't care who we are. They're gonna, the store closes at 5. They don't care if you were a dirt bag. You're gonna use. You have the money to pay for the, for the item. What your uncle says about the king doesn't matter. You can still do business. Right? Because we live in a world of, of, of institutions. So yeah, I, I love the play. I think it's wonderful. If you like this era of history, it's worth reading. Thomas Moore as a lover of the law is something that I think we should all. I think it's very easy for us to romanticize and want to have a world where relationships are the, the sort of like the social operating system. And I think we kind of think of institutions, our legal system, our financial system, our, you know, our, basically our government system, our representative government, all these things. I think a lot of people look at that and say like it's cold, it's impersonal, or maybe even worse, it's not working. We should just go back to like, you know, back when it was a better time of, of you could look a man in the eye and shake his hand and know that his word meant something. Right? It's easy to romanticize those things. But like we will miss institutions if we don't take care of them. And Thomas Moore is right in saying if we are going to play games, if we're going to play the game of popular opinion and that's what's going to rule society. That is a world that is not going to be just and that is not a world that is not going to be, as far as Thomas is concerned, worth living in. And I think he's right on that. So I, yeah, I don't think we love our institutions enough. And we look at the way that our institutions maybe fail in their scale or the people that are, are not maintaining the institutions. And then if, and then we say, well, the institution itself must be rotten because as an idea, because it has not been properly maintained. But if we went back to it's just all based on whether the Grand Poo Ball likes you or not. That is not a nice world to live in.
- [58:54]
Autonomous Magby
No.
- [58:55]
Thomas More
And so anyway, so read man for All Seasons. It's a fantastic book. And even just that little heuristic of thinking about societies as like honor kin based societies and institution legal based societies is a really helpful tool for like just sort of looking at the world, understanding history. Yeah. And then even just understanding like when you know the US is in Afghanistan right there, there's a clash of two civilization, there's a class of two ideas. Rules based system versus relationship based system. And you know, there's all sorts of examples of that around the world. That's, you know. Anyway, it's just a helpful little heuristic to have when looking at history and looking at stuff. Anyway, that's all I got for man for All Seasons.
- [59:41]
AJ Hennenberg
Cool. That was great. This has been classical Stuff. You should know. You can find our patreon at classical stuff. Patreon.com classical stuff.
- [59:50]
Autonomous Magby
Yep.
- [59:50]
AJ Hennenberg
Got it. Nailed it. We have in between episodes there. We are about to record one right now. We will also this summer after Graham and I take our walking tour of the Cotswolds. Have a bunch of episodes we record as we walk. And you can find some a post there where you can make suggestions as to what you'd like us to talk about or read or even sing on our little tour.
- [60:08]
Thomas More
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You are making promise. You are cashing checks. You are writing checks you can't cash, my friend. I can cash them.
- [60:14]
AJ Hennenberg
And I've heard you cash them.
- [60:15]
Autonomous Magby
Yeah. You sing regularly on the podcast?
- [60:18]
AJ Hennenberg
Literally all the time.
- [60:19]
Thomas More
I've never once sang on this podcast.
- [60:21]
AJ Hennenberg
That is a.
- [60:21]
Autonomous Magby
Didn't you do it earlier, bald faced episode. Yeah.
- [60:24]
AJ Hennenberg
Anyway, yeah. Okay, so you can find us there. You can email us@theguys.theguysmail.com no, no. I'm so tired.
- [60:32]
Autonomous Magby
Theguyslassicalstuff.net There you go. You can find us on Twitter. X, C, A L stuff. We're online. Classicalstuff.net I love you so much.
- [60:40]
Thomas More
He's autonomous. Autonomous.
- [60:42]
Autonomous Magby
Autonomous.
- [60:42]
AJ Hennenberg
Maggie, Magby and Grain. Graham.
- [60:45]
Thomas More
Graham. Mayhem.
- [60:47]
AJ Hennenberg
Grandpa.
- [60:48]
Autonomous Magby
Grandpa.
- [60:48]
Thomas More
Bye, Grand Sa.