Classical Stuff You Should Know – Episode 273: Against Christian Civilization

Release Date: February 4, 2025

Hosts:

• Thomas Magbee
• Graham Donaldson
• A.J. Hannenberg

Introduction

In Episode 273 of "Classical Stuff You Should Know," hosts Thomas Magbee, Graham Donaldson, and A.J. Hannenberg delve into a provocative lecture titled "Against Christian Civilization" by Paul Kings North, presented at the 2024 Erasmus Lecture hosted by First Things. This discussion explores the intricate relationship between Christianity and Western civilization, questioning whether efforts to revive Christian principles as a means to preserve the West are inherently flawed.

Overview of Paul Kings North's Lecture

Paul Kings North, an Irish novelist, essayist, and poet, presents a critical analysis of Western civilization's trajectory. His primary thesis posits that attempting to rescue the declining Western culture by reintegrating Christianity as a dominant social force is a "deadly mistake." Instead, he suggests that a more introspective and mystical Christian practice may hold the key to enduring spiritual resilience.

Key Arguments Presented by Paul Kings North

1. Civilization and the Seven Deadly Sins: Kings North argues that modern Western civilization inherently promotes the seven deadly sins—pride, greed, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth. He contends that these vices are not only pervasive but are foundational to the current societal structure.

   "Our entire civilization then not only fails to resist these deadly sins, but actively encourages them. They are the very basis of its existence."
   [21:58] Kings North

2. Incompatibility of Christianity with Modernity: He posits that the core values of Christianity are fundamentally at odds with the prevailing ethos of modernity, which emphasizes technological progress and economic growth—concepts he views as incompatible with Christian morality.

   "Modern life and Christian values are incompatible."
   [13:17] Graham Donaldson (paraphrasing Kings North)

3. Critique of Public Intellectuals: Kings North critiques figures like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Jordan Peterson, who advocate for the use of Christian ethics as a tool to combat perceived threats such as global Islam, communist China, and cultural Marxism. He argues that utilizing Christianity in this instrumental manner undermines its true spiritual essence.

   "We should not put up with [the instrumental use of Christianity]. The faith is not a weapon."
   [14:47] Graham Donaldson (summarizing Kings North)

4. Role of Christian Mysticism: Instead of a crusading or nationalistic approach, Kings North emphasizes the importance of mystics, ascetics, and everyday Christians who live out their faith through prayer, love, and service. He believes that these quieter, more personal expressions of Christianity are the true builders of enduring Christian culture.

   "Our work is repentance, which means transformation. We have to be prepared to die and thus reborn."
   [46:35] Thomas Magbee (Quoting Kings North)

Discussion and Analysis

The hosts engage in a robust analysis of Kings North's arguments, offering both agreement and critique:

• Thomas Magbee appreciates the identification of the seven deadly sins in modern culture but emphasizes the need for active Christian engagement rather than retreat.

  "If I believe in this argument, I kind of give up. And I don't think that's right."
  [48:15] Thomas Magbee

• A.J. Hannenberg challenges the notion that reviving large-scale Christian civilization is feasible or desirable. He advocates for smaller, community-focused Christian practices that emphasize discipleship and virtue without seeking to overhaul societal institutions.

  "Keep on making disciples and being virtuous. It sounds like Kings North ends in this place. But I don't think it should be one of resignation."
  [48:30] A.J. Hannenberg

• Graham Donaldson agrees that while large-scale civilizational revival may be impractical, fostering strong, localized Christian communities can serve as a bulwark against societal decline.

  "Your church should almost be like working in the margins or in the half spaces of those civilization to sort of right the wrongs that the civilization does wrong."
  [40:52] Graham Donaldson

The hosts also draw parallels to historical contexts, such as the fall of the Roman Empire and the resilience of Christian traditions through monastic communities, highlighting the enduring power of individual and small-group faith practices over grand societal movements.

Host Reactions and Perspectives

• The hosts largely agree with Kings North's skepticism towards using Christianity as a means to militarize or politicize Western civilization. They see value in focusing on personal faith, community engagement, and moral integrity as sustainable ways to navigate cultural decline.

• Criticisms include challenging Kings North's interpretation of the Old Testament, particularly his view that civilization arose solely as a consequence of the Fall, a perspective the hosts find too reductive and contrary to classical theological interpretations that see government and social structures as inherently positive.

  "Saying that civilization and government and farming and cities was the result of the fall is too easy a reading of the Old Testament."
  [33:28] Graham Donaldson

• The discussion also touches on the Princetonian balance between communal isolation and active participation in societal reform, suggesting that a middle path—maintaining strong personal faith while engaging constructively with the world—is more practical and faithful to Christian teachings.

Conclusion

Episode 273 of "Classical Stuff You Should Know" presents a thoughtful examination of the intersection between Christianity and Western civilization through the lens of Paul Kings North's "Against Christian Civilization." While acknowledging the validity of his concerns regarding the moral direction of modern society, the hosts advocate for a nuanced approach that prioritizes personal faith and community over grand societal revivals. They underscore the importance of living out Christian virtues in everyday life as a means to subtly influence and transform the broader cultural landscape.

Notable Quotes:

• "Our entire civilization then not only fails to resist these deadly sins, but actively encourages them. They are the very basis of its existence."
  [21:58] Paul Kings North

• "We need its ethic to fight against the... we are going to adopt some kind of civilizational Christianity... that is not right."
  [16:03] Graham Donaldson (paraphrasing Kings North)

• "This is a culture of inversion. We can best understand the process, I think, by simply observing that our elites today are focused overwhelmingly on inverting the culture that we took for granted when I was growing up."
  [07:10] Paul Kings North (as read by Graham Donaldson)

For those interested in exploring the complexities of Christian influence on Western culture and the viability of its revival in contemporary society, this episode offers an engaging and critical perspective worth considering.