274: The Lord of the Flies

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know: Episode 274 – The Lord of the Flies

Release Date: February 11, 2025

Hosts: A.J. Hanneberg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magby
Book Discussed: Lord of the Flies by William Golding

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Introduction

In Episode 274 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanneberg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magby delve into William Golding's seminal novel, Lord of the Flies. The trio explores the novel's intricate themes, symbolism, and character dynamics, offering listeners both educators and enthusiasts a comprehensive understanding of the classic tale.

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Recap of Lord of the Flies

Thomas Magby begins the discussion by providing a detailed summary of the novel. He recounts the story of a group of British schoolboys stranded on an uninhabited island following a plane crash. As the boys attempt to establish a semblance of civilization, tensions rise, leading to chaos and violence.

Key Plot Points:

• Initial Organization: The boys elect Ralph as their leader, emphasizing order and the importance of maintaining a signal fire for rescue.
• Rising Tensions: Jack Merridew, the choir leader turned antagonist, challenges Ralph’s leadership, prioritizing hunting over rescue.
• Symbolic Acts: The discovery and use of the conch shell symbolize the boys' initial efforts to uphold civilization.
• Descent into Savagery: Fear of a mythical "beast," power struggles, and the breakdown of order culminate in tragic deaths, including that of Piggy and Simon.
• Conclusion: The arrival of a naval officer brings an abrupt end to the boys' descent, reinstating the presence of adult civilization.

Notable Quote:

Thomas Magby (03:58): “...a common enough story that people have heard that I don't feel too compelled to retell it. But I think my first time through, I missed a lot of the symbolism.”

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Analysis of Themes and Symbols

1. The Conch Shell

The conch shell emerges as a potent symbol of order and civilization. Initially discovered by Ralph, the conch becomes a tool for maintaining structured assemblies and democratic discourse among the boys.

Key Points:

• Symbol of Authority: Holding the conch grants the speaker the right to speak, enforcing a democratic system.
• Decline of Order: As the boys descend into savagery, the conch's influence wanes, symbolizing the disintegration of societal norms.
• Final Symbolic Act: The shattering of the conch alongside Piggy’s death marks the complete collapse of civilized behavior.

Notable Quote:

Graham Donaldson (24:59): “It represents, like order and civilization and some kind of rule of law, or at least rule of custom.”

2. The Lord of the Flies

The pig’s head mounted on a stick, referred to as the "Lord of the Flies," symbolizes the manifestation of inherent human savagery and moral decay.

Key Points:

• Representation of Inner Evil: The Lord of the Flies signifies the darkness within each individual, suggesting that the beast is not an external entity but resides within the boys themselves.
• Dialogue with Simon: The eerie conversation between Simon and the pig’s head underscores the novel’s exploration of innate human brutality.

Notable Quote:

Thomas Magby (26:14): “I think the Lord of the Flies represents like human depravity or barbarian.”

3. Civilization vs. Barbarism

A central theme of the novel, civilization is depicted through the boys' initial attempts to create orderly societies, while barbarism is illustrated through their regression into chaos and violence.

Key Points:

• Initial Efforts: The boys establish rules, build shelters, and maintain a signal fire, reflecting civilized behavior.
• Regression: As fear and power struggles intensify, the boys abandon these structures, reverting to primal instincts.
• Symbolic Objects: The conch and the Lord of the Flies embody the struggle between maintaining order and succumbing to savagery.

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Character Analysis

1. Ralph

Ralph serves as the protagonist embodying leadership and the persistent desire to maintain civilization.

Key Points:

• Leadership Qualities: Elected as chief due to his charisma and desire for order.
• Struggle with Authority: Faces continuous challenges from Jack, leading to internal conflict and eventual disillusionment.
• Symbolic Representation: Potentially viewed as a Christ-like figure, struggling to uphold morality amidst chaos.

Notable Quote:

Thomas Magby (32:34): “Ralph begins to lose the threat of what he's saying...He keeps on sort of forgetting what's going on...abandon civility just the same.”

2. Jack Merridew

Jack represents the descent into savagery and the allure of power driven by fear and insecurity.

Key Points:

• Antagonist Role: Challenges Ralph’s authority, leading a faction that prioritizes hunting and power over rescue.
• Insecurity and Arrogance: Desires recognition and control, often resorting to manipulation and violence.
• Symbolic Acts: Adoption of face paint symbolizes his transformation into a leader driven by primal instincts.

Notable Quote:

Graham Donaldson (28:10): “You need to have the scapegoat… you need to have the thing that is gonna take on the.”

3. Piggy

Piggy embodies intellect, reason, and the voice of civilization, yet faces ostracization and violence.

Key Points:

• Rational Voice: Provides logical solutions and upholds the importance of the signal fire and rules.
• Symbolic Significance: His death, alongside the shattering of the conch, signifies the complete loss of rationality and order.
• Vulnerability: Represents the fragility of intellect in the face of mob mentality and barbarism.

Notable Quote:

Thomas Magby (33:38): “Piggy is something that Jack doesn't like. He doesn't like that someone else is so close to the seat of power… Piggy is the voice of clear-headed reason.”

4. Simon

Simon represents innate goodness and moral compass, tragically misunderstood and killed by the mob.

Key Points:

• Innate Morality: Recognizes the true nature of the "beast" as the boys' inherent evil.
• Symbolic Death: His murder signifies the triumph of savagery over innate goodness and understanding.
• Spiritual Symbolism: Potentially viewed as a Christ figure, sacrificed due to his moral clarity.

Notable Quote:

Thomas Magby (15:36): “Simon was inside the mouth. He fell down and lost consciousness.”

5. Sam and Eric

Often referred to collectively as Samneric, they symbolize conformity and the struggle to maintain individuality amidst group pressure.

Key Points:

• Duality: Function as a single entity, reflecting the loss of individual identity.
• Conflict: Caught between loyalty to Ralph and coercion by Jack’s tribe, ultimately succumbing to fear.
• Representation: Highlight the ease with which individuals can be swayed by dominant forces and fear.

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Interpretation of the Ending

The episode's hosts engage in a nuanced discussion about the novel's conclusion, where adult civilization reasserts itself, bringing an abrupt end to the boys' descent. They debate whether the ending serves as a redemption arc or a mere restoration of order without addressing the underlying chaos.

Key Points:

• Rescue Arrival: The naval officer's appearance symbolizes the persistent presence of civilization and order.
• Emotional Resolution: The boys' breakdown upon rescue reflects a return to innocence and the psychological toll of their experiences.
• Symbolic Significance: The ending underscores the fragility of civilization and the ease with which it can be disrupted.

Notable Quote:

Thomas Magby (40:49): “I always wish that they would have ended poorly, but I'm not sure about this one. What are your stances?”

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Connections to Real-World Events

The hosts draw parallels between the novel’s themes and historical events, particularly in the context of leadership, societal breakdown, and the thin veneer of civilization.

Key Points:

• World Wars: The transformation of Jack’s character through face paint echoes the adoption of symbols and uniforms in wartime leadership, such as Nazi soldiers.
• Totalitarianism: The ease with which Jack gains power reflects real-world instances of charismatic leaders manipulating fear to establish control.
• Social Contract: The breakdown of social norms on the island mirrors the collapse of societal structures during crises.

Notable Quote:

Graham Donaldson (48:12): “It's hard to separate this from Nazism... The arrival of the airmen would be the arrival of civility that finally beat back the danger.”

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Concluding Thoughts

A.J. Hanneberg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magby conclude the episode by reflecting on the enduring relevance of Lord of the Flies. They emphasize the novel’s profound insights into human nature, leadership, and the precarious balance between civilization and barbarism.

Final Reflections:

• Symbolism Depth: Revisiting the novel with a focus on its symbolic elements enriches the understanding of its themes.
• Human Nature: The story serves as a cautionary tale about the inherent darkness within humanity and the importance of maintaining societal structures.
• Educational Value: The hosts advocate for the novel’s continued study as a means to explore fundamental philosophical and ethical questions.

Notable Quote:

Thomas Magby (54:32): “It's a worthwhile read. So I enjoyed it. Recommend it for sure.”

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Engage with Us

The hosts invite listeners to engage further by emailing them with their thoughts on the characters and following their social media channels for updates and discussions.

Contact Information:

• Email: Reach out via their official podcast channels.
• Social Media: Follow them on Twitter and Patreon for additional content and interactions.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of Episode 274, providing listeners with an in-depth exploration of Lord of the Flies as discussed by A.J., Graeme, and Thomas. Whether revisiting the novel or encountering it for the first time, this episode offers valuable insights into its timeless themes.

Transcript

[Graham Donaldson]

Hi, and welcome to Classical stuff. You should know. A podcast about classical education, the classical world, old books, philosophy, ideas. We could probably do music if we wanted to.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Starting island civilizations.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

My name is Graham Donaldson and I'm joined by two of my fellow fellow survivors.

[Thomas Magby]

Wow.

[Graham Donaldson]

On the island.

[Thomas Magby]

Sounds like we're talking about Survivor.

[Graham Donaldson]

Survivor. That was a great show.

[Thomas Magby]

I think it's still going.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's still going.

[Graham Donaldson]

Are you serious?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, I think it was an episode.

[Graham Donaldson]

One and then never met anything else.

[Thomas Magby]

It's very much less like, learn how to survive in the jungle and very much more like play these crazy games and talk bad about each other.

[Graham Donaldson]

And I'm joined with My fellow lords, A.J. hanneberg, that's me. And Thomas Magby.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

No, I can't take the. Hello. I can't take that title. You actually have that title?

[Thomas Magby]

I actually am a lord. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So AJ has a heraldry out of.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Is it sealant? Yeah. Good.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm looking at it right now. It's on the board.

[Thomas Magby]

Not as legitimate as it can be.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's a printed certificate, so Congratulations.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Good. And we are going to be talking about a book about a bunch of boys just having a great making away in this crazy world. Takes everything you got. Making your way in the world today or whatever.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

No, keep going. This is great. This is really good.

[Graham Donaldson]

And you're doing Lord of the Flies, right?

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Plane crash.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay, cool.

[Thomas Magby]

So, yeah, I'm talking about Lord of the Flies today. Have you guys read the book?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes, I read it like, probably in 11th grade when I was in Canada.

[Thomas Magby]

When did you read it, Thomas?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Ten years ago.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, so what do you remember about it?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I've already gotten this wrong before on this podcast because I remember. So there's. You got this group of boys. Is it a plane crash? Is that what you just said? They get stranded on this island and it's the story of, like, what do they do in the face of that?

[Graham Donaldson]

They set up a civilization. There's food, and then they blame the fat kid for eating all the food and they kill him.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

There's something that, like, wrong, but there's something that, like, establishes authority. I thought it was a shell and someone drops it at some point. And then that's when the murder happens. Right. I think it's they murder Piggy. That's all I remember.

[Graham Donaldson]

There are a bunch of British kids going off like British school children going off in like a debate competition or something like. Like that.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. I don't think it ever actually says.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

What they were doing, but they start off. They're supposed to be, like, civilized wellbeing.

[Graham Donaldson]

And they create, like. They're gonna create, like. Yeah. You know, sort of Western liberalism on this island of voting in Parliament and.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Turns into, like, murder times, you know, like, killing each other and, like, shaking sticks and.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Is this the part where you tell us we're all wrong about everything?

[Thomas Magby]

Getting mad at the pudgy kid for eating all the food didn't happen, but a lot of that other stuff did happen.

[Graham Donaldson]

I thought they blamed him.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

They get mad at him.

[Thomas Magby]

They get mad, but not for that. Not for, like, eating all the food. That's not really his issue.

[Graham Donaldson]

How did you do it?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

That's the whole point.

[Thomas Magby]

Someone ate the food.

[Graham Donaldson]

Whatever.

[Thomas Magby]

Nobody ate. Nobody ate the food. That's as far as I know. That's not really part of the deal.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You are the one who just read this book, so you would know better than we do.

[Thomas Magby]

I mean, I did read it, like, finish it this morning, literally.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah. Good.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, so I'm gonna give you guys a quick rundown of the book. I don't want to spend too much time here. A lot of our episodes where I do a book are largely episodic, me retelling the story. This one's a common enough story that people have heard that I don't feel too compelled to retell it. But I think my first time through, I missed a lot of the symbolism. This time, I think I did a better job of sort of understanding what the author was trying to do. And I want to spend some time there, especially because it kind of dovetails really nicely with two episodes ago, one of Donaldson's episodes. So I'm going to highlight kind of the major events and give a big sweeping, like, here's kind of what happens. And then we can talk about a couple of things that I noticed. And maybe if you are, say, a student or a person who wants to dive a little bit deeper into this book or am thinking about reading it, then this will help you dive in a little bit deeper. As always, there will probably be spoilers. So if you are, we've literally spoiled.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

One of the main plot points of the book. Right?

[Thomas Magby]

I probably should have said that first.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I feel like you have to know that if you click on an episode, I have no idea what you'll title.

[Thomas Magby]

This, but probably just Lord of the Flies.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay. I think people should know by that.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so spoilers ahead. You might just want, you know, turn it off if you don't want spoilers. Like, go keep Listening. Go read the book and then come back later after you've read it. Alright, so you got some main characters. You got Ralph, who is the. He was. He would be the protagonist. He's a good kid if you know, just a standard British boy. He's not always kind like he should be. He tries to take authority. He is the authority figure. And his, his character progresses and changes throughout the novel. But right, right at the beginning when he, when it's a crash, he's just your standard British kid. He's kind of tall, good looking, athletic and maybe doesn't always conduct himself perfectly, but he seems to be well meaning. Then we have Jack Merridew who is the prefect of a choir and commands them with. You know, he commands them with an iron fist and ends up being kind of the antagonist of the book. You have Piggy, who was the pudgy kid that Donaldson mentioned. He's there at the very beginning with Ralph and he wears spectacles and we'll talk about exactly what he represents as we go along. And then you've got Simon who is a. He's kind of a shy loner. He. I think he's the guy that passes out right at the beginning of the book as the choir kind of walks up with Jack. He passes out and they're like, ah, he's always passing out. So they haul him up there. And then you have a couple of twins that pop up. But there's some other side characters. The twins pop up often enough that I want to mention them. Their names are Sam and Eric. And they are together so much that everyone just comes to calling them Sam Narik. And they actually put the names together. S A M N E R I C so those are kind of the main characters. You've got Ralph, main guy Jack who ends up being the antagonist. Piggy Simon the shy loner and Sam and Eric. So sequence of events at the very beginning of the book, Piggy and Jack emerge from the forest after a plane crash. Like it just talks about them sort of walking out of this big scar torn through the jungle. And it was made by the fuselage of the plane as it, you know, landed and sort of wrecked itself and then the sea dragged it away from shore and so they don't have any of the things left by the plane. They are just in their clothes and then there's nothing else. There's no luggage, there's nothing to salvage. They are just left on the island and Piggy confides in Ralph. Did I say Piggy and Jack emerge? You did Okay, I wrote my notes wrong. It's Ralph. So Piggy and Ralph emerge, and Piggy asks Ralph his name. And Ralph says it, and then he doesn't ask in return what Piggy's name is. And eventually, you know, he kind of. Piggy gets around to just sort of saying it. He's like, well, as long as you don't call me what they called me at school. And Ralph goes, oh, what's that? And he says, piggy. And so Ralph makes fun of him, and then it will later come out, and he sort of betrays that trust and tells all the rest of the kids. So they all call him Piggy, which is rough. So they. They wander out of the jungle. They find this beautiful spot that has sort of an elevated stone platform with a pool right on the end of it. It's really idyllic, actually. And they find in the waves this beautiful massive conch shell. Conch. Conch. I've never known it's a conch.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Is it conch?

[Graham Donaldson]

I think it's conch. Oh, I always thought it was conch.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Can one of you, like, Google this for me? I've never known and I always wanted to figure this out.

[Graham Donaldson]

What's Google know?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Conch.

[Thomas Magby]

It's conch.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

That's what this says.

[Thomas Magby]

A conch shell.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You hear that? Conch.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, I feel. But I feel dumb saying conch. Conch sounds more civilized.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Say it however you want to.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. Anyway, he finds the conch shell.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's America, baby.

[Thomas Magby]

And they're wondering if there are any other boys around the island, right. If anyone else has survived. So Piggy notes that. All right, that shell is awesome. It's huge. It's probably worth a ton of money, but you got a blow on one end and you kind of gotta spit while you do it. And so Ralph tries and he kinda goes. And then they laugh for a while, and then he actually succeeds in blowing it. And all the other kids start to gather to this place, including Jack and his crew of choir boys. And they show up in militarized, like two lines. And he already has them sort of marching. They're sort of like a little army. And they decide that they are going to form a little society that they got to do a few things that are really important. They got to find out where they are. They got to find out, like, take. Piggy's supposed to take names of everybody so they can keep track of them. And then they need to start some sort of signal fire. Like that's the next thing that they got to do is signal fire at some point. So they talk with Jack. They. In this moment, they elect Ralph as chief. Right? Jack kind of tries to get it. He says, I should be chief. And they're like, well, but Ralph has to conch. And so they. Everybody votes Ralph to be chief. Jack is a little sore about this, but Ralph, as a good leader, says, hey, but you can lead this band of folks, the people you're already leading, and they can be hunters. And Jack is like, dope. So they all go and decide to. They, they. They take a small cadre of boys and go and explore the island and find out that indeed they are on an island. And they're pretty excited about this, right? It's kind of cool.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Sounds awesome.

[Thomas Magby]

There's no parents. Yeah, they're on an island. It turns out that fruit is abundant. It's everywhere. They can have a diet of fruit and it makes them a little loose in the shorts, but. But, you know, it's everywhere. Yeah, they're. They're fine. They can have an odd. Crab meat is hard to get, but for the most part, it's kind of cool. No parents. And so in this moment, they're all feeling great. And Jack and Ralph have sort of this weird connection, even though there is a little bit antagonistic, but they find they're on an island. And then Jack has his. And up there, they have their first encounter with a pig. And they kind of trap it, and Jack grabs it and whips out his knife, but hesitates. And then the pig gets away and he says, ah, I can't believe I hesitated. Next time. And he does the very boyish thing of like, stabbing his knife into a tree and being like, next time.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Thunk.

[Thomas Magby]

And they. I think the author does. Sorry. The author, William Golding, does a great job in capturing boyhood and the activities of boys and how they actually speak and behave. He does a really good job of this. The things that are really important that boys wouldn't think about, they don't think about. And they just kind of push things away. And they are. You know, there's all the drama of being a young child and imagining all these big, massive things, like being a hunter and then whipping your knife into an oak and being like, next time I'll kill it. Like, that's kind of the thing that's happening. So they go back down and decide that they need a fire, a signal fire to signal that they can get. So they can get rescued. They grab a whole bunch of wood and pile it all together and decide this Is going to be a great thing. And then realize none of them knows how to make fire. Except Piggy has glasses. So they borrow his glasses, focus a point, and then start this big, massive signal fire. But they kind of got too excited. It's way too big. There's not enough smoke. And it starts to spread, and it spreads across a part of the island. And the boys just kind of don't worry about it. But this is the first sort of signal that things are not kind of going as planned, Right. They wanted to do a signal fire. It was gonna be civilized. It wasn't really. And one kid, a kid with a birthmark on his face, actually goes missing. They never see him again. They know that things kind of got out of hand and that kid was probably killed. Piggy didn't get a list of the youngins, as they call them. Like, the little kids. Age is sick. No one really takes care of them. They're like six, and they just eat fruit and sort of play with sandcastles and wander around. But he. He goes away. And no one really talk. Like, they just kind of push it to the edge of their minds. Even though they know that he is.

[Graham Donaldson]

Lost, they feel bad about it, but they don't talk about it, right?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. And then because they don't talk about it, they feel less bad about it. Right. They just kind of let it go. They. They have, you know, another meeting. And they kind of all realize that the island isn't necessarily a great place like, a good place. But at some point, Jack takes his hunters. Ralph sees that the signal. They decide to remake the signal fire on top of the mountain. But Jack sees it, or, sorry, Ralph sees it has gone out. There's no smoke coming off of it. And he sees a ship. As they're just sort of down building shelters, he freaks out and tries to run all the way up. Realizes that he doesn't really. That, you know, I'm not even sure he brought the glasses, so he can't really fix it. And when he's up there, Jack shows up and, you know, yells at him, like, you guys, it was your job. It was the hunter's job to keep this going. But Jack. Jack had actually just killed a pig. And he said, yes, but I have meat, and I needed everyone to do this. They did a. They did sort of a ring and trapped the pig. And Ralph was like, yes, but we could have been rescued. Like, this is the most important thing on the island, and you let it go out, and that's not okay. And the rift in the two boys deepened. Right. So Ralph is really angry. Jack feels embarrassed even though he had just done this triumphant thing and killed a pig from everybody. And it's not great. Right after this, they have a meeting and everyone is just generally feeling lots of fear and feeling really bad they missed a boat and stuff isn't great. And a young child says that he has been seeing this beast and it comes up from the water and everyone thinks he's probably just dreaming. It's not a big deal. But the rumor of the beast goes around and they don't really know. And what's worse is that these kids kind of half believe in ghosts, some of them. Piggy says he doesn't. He's like, I don't believe in it. But everybody else says, what if there are ghosts? And Ralph can't, you know, can't reign them all in and say once and for all that there is nothing. And they all think it's possible that big squids come out of the water and do horrible things. And so the split between Jack and Ralph deepens. At this moment, there's. There is a beast that comes from the air. So what happens is there is a war going on and a plane is shot down and the pilot ejects, but is killed. And he is dragged by his parachute onto the island. And the parachute kind of gets tangled in a weird way. And the wind can blow and make the body sit up and lay back down just as the wind sort of blows the parachute. And so it's up on top of the air and Sam and Eric, who are in charge of the signal fire, see this body and they think it's the beast. So they run back down. And everyone says, okay, well, we've seen it, we have proof that it exists. We have to go find it. So Jack says, I've been all over this island hunting. There's no beast. And there's maybe one place they could find it. So they go and they find this big sort of castle, fort shaped pink rock. They explore it. There's clearly no beast. Jack says it might be a great place to build a fort and like hunker down, but it's a little more exposed to the sea. There's no shelters, there's, you know, it's not the place that they're used to. So they decide to go to the top of the mountain. On the way, they sort of decide not to do it. They find a boar. It gets away. And this is the moment where they sort of like. He's like, oh, we got it away, but next time we'll kill it. And in the ring, the boys all start to chant, you know, kill the beast, slit its throat, spill its blood. And then they start poking at one kid and it almost gets a little out of hand. They're sort of play acting the kill of the hog. But they stop and then they continue on. Jack and Ralph go up and they, they too see the beast and they think, oh, no. Like this is. It's the real deal. The body sits up and sort of gapes in them with these horrible black eyes and they think it's some sort of ape and they run off. And Ralph calls the assembly. Ralph. It doesn't go very well. Jack says that he's gonna go hunt. And maybe he's like, screw the beast, I'm not gonna worry about it. I'm gonna go hunt. And if I find the beast, I'll kill it. He eventually does actually find and kill a pig. And then they decide maybe to leave offerings for the beast because that'll keep it away from them. So they take the pig's head and set it up on a stake. And I'm gonna read a section right after that where Simon. Who?

[Graham Donaldson]

The fainty boy.

[Thomas Magby]

The fainty boy. He's actually gone up and explored a little bit and he finds the body and realizes that it's not a beast, right? He is, he is seen like it's just an airman who's tangled up. And he sort of like fiddles with the wires and then the wind takes the body out to sea. So he knows what's going on. But at this point, Jack has basically said he made a bid for chief right after they saw the beast and said, like, I can take care of this. Who wants me as chief? And no one raised their hand. So he got mad, he ran off. He said, screw you guys, I'm going to go hunting. And you know, if I find the beast, I'll kill it. And if you want to be part of my tribe, you can. And a bunch of people leave and sort of like disappear over time and go over to Jack's tribe. So now Jack has a bunch of followers. They hunt, they find a pig and he sets up this little head. And I'm going to read the section where Simon, who is returning from having, you know, freed the airman, encounters the beast. Let's see. Okay. Simon stayed where he was, a small brown image concealed by the leaves. Even if he shut his eyes, the sow's head still remained like an afterimage. The half shut eyes were dim. With the infinite cynicism of adult life, they assured Simon that everything was a bad business. I know that, said Simon. Simon discovered that he had spoken aloud. He opened his eyes quickly, and there was the Head, grinning amusedly in the strange daylight, ignoring the flies, the spilled guts, even ignoring the indignity of being spiked on a stick. He looked away, licking his dry lips. A gift for the beast. Might not the beast come for it? The Head, he thought, appeared to agree with him. Run away, said the Head silently. Go back to the others. It was a joke, really. Why should you bother? You were just wrong, that's all. A little headache, something you ate, perhaps? Go back, child, said the Head silently. Simon looked up, feeling the weight of his wet hair, and gazed at the sky. Up there for once were clouds, great bulging towers that sprouted away over the island, gray and cream and copper colored. The clouds were sitting on the land. They squeezed, produced moment by moment, this close, tormenting heat. Even the butterflies deserted the open space where the obscene thing grinned and dripped. Simon lowered his head carefully, keeping his eyes shut, then sheltered them with his hand. There were no shadows under the trees, but everywhere a pearly stillness, so that there was. So that what was real seemed elusive without definition. So it talks about the flies, et cetera, et cetera. And then it sort of flashes back to what's going on ashore, and I want to get back to the next chunk of Simon, okay? You are a silly little boy, said the Lord of the Flies. Just an ignorant, silly little boy. And as the Lord of the Flies, this pig head on a stick talks to Simon. Piggy and Ralph have decided that maybe they would like to go and enjoy some of the meat with all of the other boys that Jack has sort of gathered. Like, you know, if you guys want, you can come to a feast. But it's my tribe. And you know, he's got a painted face which kind of allows him to sort of do what he wants to, you know, it hides the real Jack. And so now he's like Painted Jack, and he can do whatever he likes. So back to Simon, just an ignorant, silly little boy. Simon moved his swollen tug, but said nothing. Don't you agree? Said the Lord of the Flies. Aren't you just a silly little boy? Simon answered him in the same silent voice. Well then, said the Lord of the Flies, you'd better run off and play with the others. They think you're batty. You don't want Ralph to think you're batty, do you? You like Ralph a lot, don't you and Piggy and Jack. Simon's head was tilted slightly up. His eyes could not break away, and the Lord of the Flies hung in space before him. What are you doing out here alone? Aren't you afraid of me? Simon shook. There isn't anyone to help you. Only me. And I'm the beast. Simon's mouth, labored, brought forth audible words. Pig's head on a stick. Fancy thinking the beast was something you could hunt and kill, said the head. For a moment or two, the forest and all the other dimly appreciated places echoed with a parody of laughter. You knew, didn't you? I'm part of you. Close, close, close. I'm the reason why it's no go. Why things are what they are. The laughter shivered again. Come now, said the Lord of the Flies. Get back to the others and we'll forget the whole thing. Simon's head wobbled. His eyes were half closed, as though he were imitating the obscene thing on a stick. He knew that one of his times was coming on. The Lord of the Flies was expanding like a balloon. This is ridiculous. You know perfectly well you'll only meet me down there, so don't try to escape. Simon's body was arched and stiff. The Lord of the Flies spoke in the voice of a schoolmaster. This has gone quite far enough. My poor misguided child. Do you think you know better than I do? There was a pause. I'm warning you. I'm going to get angry. Do you see? You're not wanted. Understand? We are going. Oh, we are going to have fun on this island. Understand? We are going to have fun on this island. So don't try it on. Poor misguided boy. Or else. Simon found he was looking into a vast mouth. There was blackness within, a blackness that spread. Or else, said the Lord of the Flies, we shall. Do you see? Jack and Roger and Maurice and Robert and Bill and Piggy and Ralph. Do you see? Simon was inside the mouth. He fell down and lost consciousness. So he passes out again. So that's the. That's the moment with the pig. So the boys are down feasting on the pig carcass, and Simon is now running with the news of the beast down to the other boys. They have finished, kind of, and the boys sort of do their dance to feel better about things. After the feast, they start to dance around saying, kill the beast. Slit its throat. Spill its blood. And Simon comes wobbling out of the forest. In the black night. The circle opens. He stumbles to the middle and starts yelling something about a Dead airman. And in their crazed, you know, dance, all of the boys decide to kill the beast. And they start beating him and punching him and poking him with things, and he dies. And then the sea takes the body away in the evening. Ralph and Piggy took part in this. They like to say that they were on the outside of the circle or they left early. And again, it's one of those things that they did that nobody likes to think about. And Jack has now said, I have my tribe. You are not part of the tribe. So it's Piggy. Ralph and Sam and Eric are sort of the only big ones left of the original tribe of what they had decided to do. Jack realizes they need fire to roast pig if they get it. And so they lead a night raid and steal Piggy's specs. So now poor Piggy can't see, they can't keep the fire going, and that's not a great thing. And so the original four go to get those specs back. And as they go, they come up to the other tribe, has taken refuge in that big pink rock with that fort that they had found earlier. And they. They have wedged. Made a lever action to sort of like dump boulders down on anyone who comes nearby. Like, it's very combative. And as they go, Roger, one of the students or one of the kids in the tribe, in the middle of the fight, as they, as sort of Jack and Ralph fight with sticks, and they're trying to, you know, sort this out the way boys do. He tilts the lever and the giant boulder comes crashing down, brushes against Piggy, who can't see, breaks the conch, the conch shell, and knocks Piggy off of a cliff. And he falls 40ft to his death. And then they take Sam and Eric hostage, and there are threats, and Ralph runs off. And the next day he comes back to try to, you know, make peace. He sees that Sam and Eric are the ones watching the gate. He talks to them like, you gotta. You gotta get out of here, man. Like, tomorrow we're gonna hunt you. Like, that's what we're doing. He has made that clear. We are going to hunt you, and we are, you know, we're gonna cover the entire island in a big line of kids. There's no way you're getting away from this. So he tells them where he'll be hiding and asks them to steer them away. They don't do it. They eventually are forced to tell. And the. The tribe lights a fire near where he's hiding to kind of try to get him out. And that fire spreads and eventually the whole island is on fire. And they have thrown a spear at him. They threw it at him in the first encounter and like, grazed his ribs. So he takes off. And as he reaches the far end of the island where the fire has now taken over most of it, it's burning all the fruit trees, it's burning everything. The pigs are running. He encounters a naval seaman who has seen the fire from this giant burning island and has arrived. And all of the boys run up and they all sort of dissolve into tears and apparently they are saved. So that's the story of the book. Thoughts so far?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I hate it, man.

[Graham Donaldson]

I love that they all like burst into tears when they see the naval officer at the end. Like, as boys would. Yeah, I forgot this. Yeah. So they kill Simon, is in the little ritualized thing and Piggy falls off the mountain. That's what happens.

[Thomas Magby]

All right. Yeah. So they kill Simon.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So we.

[Thomas Magby]

We end up with, I think three dead. The small boy with the scarred face or the. The birthmark. And then we have Piggy who also dies, and we have Simon who is killed in a ring of boys. It's not great. And the death of Piggy is pretty stark. Like he falls, his. His brains hit. And then the sea takes that body too. In fact, the sea seems to take every single body except the boy with the birthmark. And we never see him again. So there's. There's something to be said for the, I don't know, the like, timelessness of the sea and the way that it doesn't leave any evidence of these crimes. But there's a lot to notice in the book. There is a couple of things I'm still kind of exploring and I'd love your guys take on. And there's a couple of things I noticed on this read through that might interest the reader. So there are two big symbols in this book. One is the conch shell, which becomes like, you guys probably guess at what.

[Graham Donaldson]

It represents, like order and civilization and some kind of rule of law, or at least rule of custom. Yeah, if you hold the shell, you can talk, right?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, that's the rule. So if you're holding the shell, you and the guy. And Ralph begins every meeting holding the shell because he's the chief. And so the shell comes to mean civility. And there are times when he brings it, like when he goes up to try to get the specs back. At the very end of the book, they bring the conch shell and he's like, I Have this. And they're like, who gives a crap? Like, we don't care about your rules anymore. That's over. And then when Piggy is killed, it's the last breaking of the conch shell. It falls and shatters too. And so it's the loss of. The final loss of civilization for the boys. Like that is the moment that it goes. Especially because Piggy seems to be the voice of clear headed reason. Right. Ralph is always hoping that he could think like Piggy does. Because Piggy sees what should be done, makes rational things. Like they're all disappointed they can't keep the fire going on the mountain. He's like, why don't we just make it down here? Seems a lot easier. They're like, oh, that's a great idea. Like that kind of thing. So he dies and there goes like the thinking and there also goes civility. So we have the conch shell and then eventually we have. Well, we have the Lord of the Flies, which is the pig head on a stick. I haven't fully sorted what that means. Do you guys have any ideas?

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, doesn't Simon say some kind of line of like, maybe there is a beast and the beast is us or something like that? Doesn't someone say that?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, they do. There is a line that says, hey, maybe we are the beast and it's sort of inside us. And I think the Lord of the Flies represents like human depravity or barbarian.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, like. Like they're the two sides of the same coin. Right. Like if man is, you know, angel and beast. Like if we have our ability to be civil and to hold society together with rules and laws and customs, and then that's sort of the conch shell. And then the, the dead pig head on a stick is our superstition. The sort of the dark animalistic side. The, the, you know, the thing that drives Jack where Jack says, next time I'm gonna kill him. Like his pride and his embarrassment and, and all of those sort of like the, the sort of appetites of man's, you know, of man's guts. Like that sort of more animalistic side is represented in that pig's head.

[Thomas Magby]

And yeah, near the end of the book, it's been bleached white because it's just been out there by itself. And so it sort of mirrors the conch shell. And Ralph encounters it as he goes up the last couple of times to contend with the tribe. And he actually breaks it because it freaks him out. He's like, this is weird. And he takes the Stick that it was sat on. And it's a two edited spear, two ended spear, like sharpened on one end to go on the ground, sharpen on the other for the pig head. And so it seems like almost like he has now adopted that barbarian quality. And then the threat that they level at him, the SEM and Eric tell him, they say, hey, we're gonna hunt you. And he's like, what is he gonna do when he finds me? He says, well, we've got a spear that's sharpened on both ends. Like your head is going on a spit. Ostensibly. So it seems like once the skull has shattered, like there's no more separate thing that is the Lord of the flies. It's in the boys.

[Graham Donaldson]

You need to have the scapegoat or you need to have the thing that is gonna, that is gonna take on the. Either the role of the thing that we're against. Like you need to have the, the antagonist that you fight.

[Thomas Magby]

So there was the beast, but now it's not the beast, it's.

[Graham Donaldson]

And so you need to have some kind of unifying. So if you're not gonna have a unifying PR of on the positive side, so like we need to have this conch shell and we're going to have rule of law, then you need to have a unifying principle on the negative side, which is going to be if we all don't band together, you know, nature is going to. The forces of nature are going to get us the beast, the. The magic, the evil. So we need. And if that means that we need to kill somebody in order to keep it, in order to, you know, to keep us coherent cohered together, well then we're willing to do that.

[Thomas Magby]

And it was that fear, that sort of initially coalesc tribe around Jack. Right. The fear of the beast. And then at the end it's not the fear of the beast anymore. They're all just against Ralph. Yeah, so that's really rough. So we have our two symbols, right? The pig and the conch shell. And we're.

[Graham Donaldson]

The jungle makes you go crazy, man.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, so on that. The jungle making you go crazy. The weird thing is to watch the degradation of Ralph. So Ralph begins being clear headed, but over time he starts to lose the threat of what he's saying. He'll forget, like he knows that the fire is the most important thing and he'll call an assembly and he'll say we've got to. What was I gonna say? And then Piggy would be like, the fire? And he's like, yeah, that's the most important thing. We gotta keep the fire going or else what's the other thing? And be like, the beast. He's like, yeah, the beast. So he just starts to forget stuff, which is awfully strange for a kid like that. And I was wondering about why that degradation. And eventually he just sort of, I guess, falls into that same antagonism and, you know, abandon civility just the same. It's hard to watch that happen to somebody like Ralph. He really does mean well, and he's trying to be a good leader, but he keeps on sort of forgetting what's going on. And everyone seems to be abandoning the. The fire altogether, which is their only hope of survival. He's like, this is clearly the most important thing. And then even once he talks to Piggy, he's like, what'll I do if I become like them, right? That they don't know what's right and clear anymore. They don't know what the most important thing is. And at that, near the end, like, no one's keeping the fire going, Right. He's simply running from them, and it's antagonism all over again. So we also have. So, weirdly enough, I think there's also sort of a hint at Ralph as a Christ figure. It's small and it's at the very end.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So the rib thing.

[Thomas Magby]

It's the rib thing. When they throw a spear in his ribs, Right. It grazes, doesn't break any bones.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But what if we have, like, Lord of the. Let's. Beelzebub. Right. Lord of the Flies. So, like, then there's a Christ figure in opposition.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. I'm not sure how much further it goes because he doesn't actually die, but there to be. Yeah, there's just a hint at that for sure. The other. The other cool duality I saw is that it's hinted that that one of the reasons maybe they are fleeing Britain because they are British, young British kids. And they talk about it like, we're British. We do the. We do everything the right way, and we got to just, you know, keep civility and do this and everything sort of devolves is that they were leaving because of nuclear war and that there is nothing to go back to because everybody's dead and no one knows we're here.

[Graham Donaldson]

But isn't that just like schoolboys? Isn't that just their lone, like, little imaginations running away with them?

[Thomas Magby]

It could be, but that's not even the issue. The issue is that at the end, it seems like them setting the Entire island on fire is a mirror of nuclear war.

[Graham Donaldson]

But then the GI shows up. So obviously there is civilization still.

[Thomas Magby]

So. Yes, there is still civilization and we know the. We know there is because the airman gets killed. Right. So we know civilization is happening around them. We see the boat go past. Like there is stuff, stuff is left. I just thought that it was an interesting like basically scorched earth that kind of mirrored nuclear war.

[Graham Donaldson]

1962, something like that. This is, isn't this like a book that kind of is playing into that fears of like this is what could happen if we don't.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

54.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, 54. Right. So this is what, you know, that sort of fear of nuclear annihilation. Right. This is, this is what happens if we don't reign in our passions or whatever. Learn to get along. You. We could blow the whole thing up.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. The other thing that really interested me was as I read this and especially this morning as you reminded me was that you've. You've talked about the movement of tribal civilization back into law based civilization. Right. That's what our two episodes ago, what yours was all about. And I was like this is basically. This is the reversion. How do you go away from normal society into something barbaric like this.

[Graham Donaldson]

And so where it's all based around the, the temperament and base and the, the appeasement of Jack.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And. Or Ralph. But mainly Jack, the most aggressive person. And. Yes. And that usually comes because you've had some kind of great dissolution of order. They've crash landed and they're going to need to survive on an island.

[Thomas Magby]

But they begin with normal order and people, you know, they kind of help but they don't really help. I mean they're boys. Right. They'll like work on shelters for a little while and then they go play or swim or do whatever they want to. They're lucky they found an island with a lot of abundance. But it made me think about what are. What exactly were the hallmarks that led our boys to barbarianism. Yeah. To degradation. And it seemed to be a few things. The strong personality of Jack, the, The lack of justice for. For faults. Like when that kid with the. The birthmark goes away. That's the first signal that you know there are no consequences here. Right. Ralph doesn't do anything about it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Should have done some kind of ceremony. They should have done some sort of a memoriam. They should have held it up as like we. There should have been a mea culpa for the group. Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. And Ralph should have Brought it and said, we have done a wrong thing. Like we built the fire too big and we need to take stock of the little ones and take care of them. But Jack didn't. Or. Sorry, not Jack, Ralph. Ralph should have sort of taken care of the young ones better, but he never goes through the steps of actually doing it. In fact, they never really take care of the young ones very well. So that is one piece. Jack's painted face allows him to sort of do things that he wouldn't do. Right. He's not as culpable. And I think we, you know, like when you're anonymous, you can do things a different way. And it sort of brings him into a completely different, I don't know, headspace. But you see this with playing boys all the time, right? One will be chief and then he'll be cruel and he'll start acting the part. Except they can actually act the part here.

[Graham Donaldson]

Puts on the costume.

[Thomas Magby]

Puts on the costume and does that. And then. And then I think the overlooming fear of the beast is the other one. Like an antagonist, something to bring to coalesce the fear and then drive them towards wanting some sort of higher authority to protect them from something so scary. And because Jack's personality is so big, he can. So that's where I'm at. That's sort of where I.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's also an insecurity of Jack. Right. Like, Jack is. Even though he's the big bad leader of the group, he's not a, you know, like a centered, calm person. Like, he's somebody that wants to recognition from everybody else. There's an arrogance there, if I remember.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. He wants the. He wants the recognition. When he doesn't get it, he'll cry and run off. And he hates Ralph because Ralph has the recognition because he is in charge. And then once he finally gets it, he sort of pushes him around and says, see, they do what I want. Right? Like now they are doing what I want.

[Graham Donaldson]

So there's that insecurity of Jack that Jack, you know, Jack wants the. Wants the power and is willing to. Yeah. And there's an insecurity there when he doesn't have it. So he's gonna. He's gonna connive to get it. So he wants the power for the sake of his. Of appealing. Of appeasing his own sort of like psychic shortcomings. Whereas Ralph is like, okay, you've. I'm. I'm in charge because I have some. I've had some of the clever ideas and we're gonna try to make a, make a go of this. And he's, he's not doing it. Ralph isn't in charge because he, like, wants to be the big man on campus, but because he gets voted in because everyone's like, yeah, he's pretty smart. He's, he, he looks, he's holding the shell. He's holding the shell. He's, you know, and he's got his, he's got Piggy. He's got his, like Merlin next to him to give him, you know, to give him some good advice. He's got his consigliere.

[Thomas Magby]

And weirdly enough, Piggy is something that Jack doesn't like. He doesn't like that someone else is so close to the seat of power and it's not him. And that Piggy is a little bit goofy and doesn't really help and has asthma and, but it's clear.

[Graham Donaldson]

But it's clever and has good ideas.

[Thomas Magby]

Right?

[Graham Donaldson]

And sorry, nerds of the world. That's.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Poor.

[Thomas Magby]

Poor Piggy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, how long does it take before the, you know, the, the shine and veneer of institutions and, and civilization, you know, goes away? Right? Like as soon as I think that you're smart to say, as soon as they realize, like, that little boy with the birthmark has gone miss, nothing's going to come of it, there's going to be no consequences for it. Like, if you don't stem that tide, like, it's not, you know, it's gone, it's done. Like, like if you allow that one atrocity, if you allow one bad thing of life and death to go unanswered, like, you don't have civilization, you won't.

[Thomas Magby]

Have culture in the terms of Rousseau, you've broken the social contract. Right. The social contract is I give away my rights to an authority in order to receive those rights back with assurance. Yeah, right. Like you are in charge so long as you can protect me. But the kid goes missing and nothing is done. And at that point, like, the social contractor is broken. The, the authority, the government has gone wrong. Yeah, there's no, no one to protect the boys.

[Graham Donaldson]

As you're reading this, I'm, I'm listening to this, like, 35 hour long podcast on the history of Jim Jones and his people's temple. And I'm at the point now where they're all in Guyana and Jim Jones is basically being like this tribal God on the throne, just like talking to his microphone.

[Thomas Magby]

Wait, so tell me more about Jim Jones. Is he the Kool Aid.

[Graham Donaldson]

Kool Aid. There was. It wasn't Kool Aid. It was the cheaper version. What was it? Flavor Aid.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Oh, great.

[Graham Donaldson]

Great.

[Thomas Magby]

He wouldn't even shell out for the good one.

[Graham Donaldson]

But they're in Guyana and, like, the jungle makes you crazy. And they have no food, and there's 900 people in a facility that could only hold 120.

[Thomas Magby]

Wow.

[Graham Donaldson]

And they're running out of food and they're convinced that the CIA is coming for them and they. A congressman comes to check on them and they murder the congressman.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, my gosh.

[Graham Donaldson]

And then Jim Jones is like, it's happening. They're going to come for us. And so he commands everybody to commit suicide.

[Thomas Magby]

But does I forget, did he also or. No, he shoots himself.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, he kills himself.

[Thomas Magby]

Brutal.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anyway, but this idea of, like, just how fast something can go from. They were a weird group to begin with, but I'm not necessarily thinking about Jim Jones, but just thinking about, like, how fast something can go from order to, like, absolute toxic dysfunction when certain norms and certain lines get crossed.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And so like the kid going off and not. And that not being. That not being stamped, that not being made. Right. And then also the like, ritualistic murder of Simon. Right.

[Thomas Magby]

And everyone is cool and everyone's kind of.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I'm not.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

They're not cool with it, but they're not talking.

[Graham Donaldson]

But at the end they're just like, oh, that was messed up. And they're like, does anybody try to give any half heart explanation as to what happened?

[Thomas Magby]

Nope.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's just. They're all hopped up on pigs and dancing.

[Thomas Magby]

Pigs and dancing and fear and it's nighttime and they just. You know, it's like, the weird thing is when things go wrong, they're almost kind of playing a game, like, kill the beast. But then they actually do and it's bad.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. And then you kind of like wake up the next morning and it's like, if we're not going to address the issue, if we're just gonna, like, toss it, put it under the rug like you. That's not. You can't let that, that hang because it's just going to fester.

[Thomas Magby]

And they do the same with the beast. Right. So the beast is there and Jack's solution is, I'm just going to hunt and maybe we can leave stuff for it and appease it and it'll leave us alone.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. If we don't think about it, it'll go away. And then when this, when then the airman shows up or the, the. The naval officer or whatever. And then there is somebody that's like the symbol and representation of, like, actual institutional societies. The spell is broken and they all are just boys again. And they start crying.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, even then, Ralph, he asks who's in charge here? And Ralph says, I am. Even though at this point he is definitely not. And just behind him is Jack holding a spear. And Jack steps forward for a second and then rethinks it and steps back and so doesn't take responsibility for the things that happened there.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But as the officer, he's asking that, does he call them out?

[Thomas Magby]

Like, he says, how's it been? And he says, have you lost anyone? And he goes, two. And he goes, killed? And the guy goes, yeah. I'm not even sure they mentioned the third one. I think he just says two. Okay. So I've always had a beef with the ending. I thought, you know, a good dystopia ends bad as a warning to not do the same things. The. All. The only thing that has possibly redeemed this ending, because I feel like it should have just ended, right? They. They kill Ralph and they burn the island down.

[Graham Donaldson]

Keep going.

[Thomas Magby]

So the. The thing that has redeemed it is that if Ralph is truly like a Christ figure representation, I'm not super convinced about that, but if he is, then the arrival of the airman is like. Like the arrival of the Father, right? Like the. This is sort of new heavens, new earth.

[Graham Donaldson]

We've.

[Thomas Magby]

We've torched the place. Everything has gone terrible, and now here the Father is to set everything all right. Like, maybe it's a. It's a. The, you know, theistic kind of thing. I'm not totally sold on that. That would redeem the ending for me, but I. With most dystopias, I always wish that they would have ended poorly, but I'm not sure about this one. What are your stances?

[Graham Donaldson]

My take on the ending is less that it's that and more that the author is saying, like, we need to love the. Or our ordered institutions that we have. Because the alternative is this. And if we, you know, or if we aren't careful about keeping. If we're not careful while keeping our conscience unbusted, undestroyed. Right. Then we. We will. We will slip into this just easily, just as easy as these boys. Pardon me. As these boys do. So I think it's more of a, like, it's that sort of warning tale of main. Maintain the society. Maintain the customs and norms in society that we have. And any. Any of those, like, norms that we cross any of those lines that we cross and just sort of say like, oh, that was crazy, let's never do that again. But never like never come to terms with it is just a step towards barbarism. So like, I'm trying to think of examples. Like again, I've been reading this book on ancient Rome and there was, you know, certain lines that they, that they were not supposed to cross in terms of decorum and rules. They weren't laws, there wasn't punishment. It was just, these are the things you don't do. And as the republic sort of was falling apart, it just was like more and more of those decorum lines were being crossed for the sake of stemming the present crisis. And it's like, well, we're gonna kill this senator, even though he's protected by custom, but he needs to go because he's dangerous. So we're just gonna kill him. We all cool with it? All right, let's not talk about it again. We just killed that guy. Well, the next time we need to kill a senator, it's much easier to do. And so I think it's sort of that, it's like, you know, if you, if you're gonna throw out decorum or throw out these, these sort of sacred things for the sake of appeasing the problem, or in this case an imaginary problem, the beast that does it isn't even there. Right. Then you're not gonna have, you're gonna have a burning island and people at each other's throats. I, I think that's more the, the message is like keep, keep your British rule of law. Keep that sort of grand heritage alive. Or we're all going to be barbarians.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But the beast is there. Right? You're saying there's not like a literal thing in the.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, you're saying the beast is within.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I don't.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, I mean, that's the message.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or you're saying that the devil actually is there and the devil is, is the pig actually talking to Simon?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I guess you have to interpret it that it's not actually happening, but like it's probably presented as Simon believes that he's actually hearing from who's Beelzebub in Paradise Lost? Is it like Satan's, like Satan's buddy, like right hand man or whatever? Left handed you say, Lieutenant? Yeah, Yep. Yeah. But there is something evil. Well, I guess is the point. They want this enemy to be outside of them, but it's actually each other. Like it's actually whatever evil's inside of them, but there is an adversary on that island with them that nearly kills all of them. Right. Does it feel like a cop out at the end to have the adult show up and kind of save the day?

[Thomas Magby]

No. And. And now I'm wondering how much it's a mirror of the. The world wars, right? Like, as Jack adopts the face paint, he finds himself able to do things he couldn't have done prior. Right. It's painted Jack. Not normal Jack. And I'm wondering if it's very similar to, you know, the Nazi uniform. Right? Put on the Nazi uniform and all of a sudden it's not me. I'm just part of a thing and I can do my duty, even though it's terrible. So I'm wondering how much of this is a, you know, commentary on the world wars and about the dangers that came from those things. And then if the. The arrival of the airmen would be, you know, the arrival of civility that finally beat back the danger. But, you know, just by the hair, if it's.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Does it read as like. Do you get, like, really invested in this, this back and forth between Ralph and. And the rest of the boys? Like, is it kind of like a. It's like a pause in the story to be like, hey, this is actually like a horrible thing that's happening? Like, this is not. Does it read as entertaining? Does it read as like an engaging story that is then like, you have the adult come in at the end and is like, this is you boy's up to. Yeah. Like, cut this out.

[Thomas Magby]

What do you mean? Like the. Are you asking if the end feels like a weird break in the action?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Kind of, yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, I think so.

[Thomas Magby]

It's.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, yeah. It's very stark. It's very different all of a sudden, like. Cause it talks constantly about the decay that Ralph can't seem to stop. Right. His clothes are decaying, their hair is long. They can't stop that. They don't feel well half the time because they're eating fruit. Everything is. You know, they started in this idyllic paradise, right? Almost Garden of Eden. Ish. And they've destroyed it. They've destroyed it and they. They sort of, you know, eat from the tree and then it sort of decays and decays and decays. And Ralph is wondering why. And they keep on thinking, like, maybe it's us. Maybe this island isn't a good place, and it's us and we are the problem. And then as soon as you get the airman, well, his clothes aren't decayed. He is well put together. He's got the shiny hat. He is. He is even observing manners. Once they. They sort of show up. Right. He looks away embarrassed that they're all crying. He sort of trusts into Coram. He's. He's very different than what they've been experiencing on the island. And so it does. It does feel like a break.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I wonder if this book is also a response to your last episode, Graham, of what do we get when we move away from centralized civilizations and societies?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, maybe I just imagine, like, what did Jack and Ralph. What are they like, like three years later when they're in the same, like, college class, you know, like when they. When they're coming off the island and. And they're back together into the civilized world. Like, what lessons do they take away from this? Like, how close, how near man is always to. To, like the brink of being at each other's throats if. If just a little bit of. Of the institutions break down. Right. Like, we always think that it would take a lot for violence and bloodshed to break out. But you get one little hurricane and there's looting.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I guess that's what.

[Thomas Magby]

Or the floods.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Fires.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

That has to be what the book is getting at, right? Like that We're. These boys are. How long are they on the island? Are we talking days, weeks?

[Thomas Magby]

It's long enough for their hair to grow long, so we're probably looking at a few months, maybe two, three months is my guess. The weird thing is that Piggy never seems to lose his weight, so I wouldn't say it's a whole lot of time. Right. Piggy's back remains shapeless even at the very end as he's cowering. So I don't think it's, you know, they're not. Certainly not there for a year. It's, you know, month, two tops.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, but just like that's. You buy that, like three, four. That's how far away we are from total degradation. And this tribal warfare that they're talking about, I mean.

[Thomas Magby]

I mean, it's hard to separate this from Nazism. Right. So Nazism was create the fear of an other. Right. Something on the outside. Gather a tribe and give them painted faces and they can do horrible things.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, Communists too.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

What did you say?

[Graham Donaldson]

The communists do it too?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's like a pretty standard system for take power and then atrocity is. Is a common enemy that strikes fear into the heart of people and you promise to come and save them. But the thing is, strong personality.

[Graham Donaldson]

They Stumble into it. It's not like Jack like wanted this, planned it, they sort of stumble into it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But he wants power, doesn't.

[Graham Donaldson]

He doesn't want power, but he, he wants power to appease his own shortcomings. And also he probably like, maybe he is scared of the beast. So it's not a look at these idiots. I can get them to do whatever I want just by like pretending the beast exists. He may actually believe in the beast. And then he also has this moral shortcomings that he want that he feels insecure about his own abilities. And so what makes you feel better? Well, is everybody saying that you're strong and good and so, you know, you stumbled into this thing.

[Thomas Magby]

I mean, don't you think that's true about some of the. The powerful world leaders too? That they actually do believe that there is this other thing and they have to rally people underneath them?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. And I think that anybody that is using the adoration or using the. The. Yeah, using the adoration or using the like the feedback that you get from people saying like lead us, tell us what to do and then you saying things and then them actually going and doing it and saying everything is better because you told me what to do is like a seductive thing that is hard to anybody to put away or anybody to like come back from.

[Thomas Magby]

And then even for the followers, right. To. To be basically told that there are no consequences for doing atrocities like this. Like certain. There was one kid in the tribe, Roger, who was the one levering rocks down on people and he seemed to enjoy it. Right. He. He was now allowed to do things he'd never been allowed to do before, which was hurt other people with impunity. And I think for some people that's attractive. So a strong personality that's willing to say, okay, I'm gonna have you go do these horrible things that will draw a certain set of people that are like, yes, I embrace this new freedom.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. And then you have people like Jack that are able to marshal those willing atrocity people who are just doing it because they just for the lulz.

[Thomas Magby]

And then they strong arm people like Sam and Eric who really don't want to do those things. But now they're like, we kind of have to or else we get tied up and beaten. So we. We have to do this stuff too.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yep. It's not great.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Not great.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah. Just you bringing Sam and Eric in like this complicit was the. You have these people who are also following along to the strong leaders orders. I guess they fear for their life. Do they say that?

[Thomas Magby]

Well, Sam and Eric get captured and tied up, and so either they follow or they suck. Like Piggy was just killed. You know what? What's their alternative? They have to do it. They're gonna side with the one guy who's running away from this huge tribe, or are they just gonna stick with the powerful guy who now owns everything and can make fire and get meat?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

This is bleak. What a bummer.

[Graham Donaldson]

This isn't a bleep there at the. It can just as easily change with a little bit of. With a little bit of institutional.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You don't believe this. This is what you.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right. As soon as the Brit shows up, he's like, what you lot up to? And he's like, you lot. And they're like, sorry, sir. And they start bawling their eyes out, like that's all you need, just another little somebody to say, like, this isn't how we behave. And then everything fixes.

[Thomas Magby]

I think it's a little bit of civilization. It's also taking the responsibility back. Right. I think a lot of the fear that the boys had but never really discussed was that they would never be rescued. Rescued. Right. They never really bring it up. They never talk about rescue, except as comes the fire. And then even Ralph starts to forget it. But there's this like deep seated fear that eventually gets localized with the beast. But I think that deep seated fear is we are going to be here till we're old. And that's the scary thing. And all of a sudden that fear has now been, I don't know, resolved for them and that they are going to be rescued. Everything is going to be okay. They can go home, they can feed ponies, they can do the normal British boy things. And now everything that did matter a second ago to ameliorate the fear that they had now doesn't matter because the fear is gone. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Haven't you ever been in those situations where, like, you let your imagination run wild with you and you think something terrible is going to happen? And then like, this is a dumb example. I remember being a little kid waiting for my parents to come home from something and they were late and so you started thinking like, they're not coming home. My parents are dead. They're in a car accident.

[Thomas Magby]

What am I gonna do?

[Graham Donaldson]

Gonna change. All of a sudden I'm good. Like, maybe no one finds me. And you, like, you just sort of get yourself all wrapped up into this sort of fear of like, how am I going to survive in a world because you're old enough to know there's consequences.

[Thomas Magby]

But I've only got two boxes of cereal. And then how do I buy cereal? I can't even drive.

[Graham Donaldson]

You start working yourself up into a horizon and then the headlights pull in the driveway and mom and dad are there. You're like, oh, the world's back to normal and the spell is coming.

[Thomas Magby]

I wonder what's for dinner.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I kind of feel like that's sort of what has happened with the boys on the island is like they're just given. They need to be take responsibility for something they don't have of the faculties for. And this is how they cope. And it turns into, like, bloodshed and chaos and then, and then, and then, like institutions and authority and demeanor or decorum and manners shows up. And then they immediately, like, are so thankful and so ashamed and they burst into tears and they're little kids again. The guy's like, all right, boys, come on, let's go home. I love it. I love that ending.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, I'm. It's growing on me for sure. I used to be super grumpy about it, but this time through, I like it. Like, it fits. It seems to fit better with the story and actually makes sense to me this time. Overall, it's great. If you, if you're out there in listener land and you haven't yet read this book, I recommend it. Go for it. Just be on the lookout for some of those, you know, deeper symbolisms and meanings that are. That are there. I totally missed most of it the first time. So.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's a great book.

[Thomas Magby]

It's a great book.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anything else?

[Thomas Magby]

And it's also, you know, like a maybe a four hour read.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's quick.

[Thomas Magby]

It's quick. I mean, I had 60 pages last night and then I read the rest of the 240 this morning.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So it's the copy you have in front of you, does that have like appendices or something like that?

[Thomas Magby]

It's got commentary at the end.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay. Because it looks. Even the version you have looks longer than it, quote, unquote, should be.

[Thomas Magby]

It ends right about there.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay. That is.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, it's still pretty long, but the print is big. It's not too bad.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Awesome.

[Thomas Magby]

It's a worthwhile read. So I enjoyed it. Recommend it for sure.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, this has been classical stuff. You should know with Graham, AJ and Thomas. You can email us telling us which of the characters of Lord of the Flies you think we most representing.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Don't love that.

[Graham Donaldson]

And no, you can email us at the guys at class.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I wear glasses. Like, I'm really picky.

[Thomas Magby]

Like, literally.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's not great.

[Graham Donaldson]

You can find us on Twitter just to, like, follow us and receive no tweets ever.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

When is the last time we tweeted?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I'd tweet every now and then. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Do you? Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

People will be like, I like this episode of Classical Stuff. And I'll be. And I'll tweet them back on the classical stuff, saying like, thanks. I thought that episode sucked or something.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Oh, cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm just kidding. You can patronize us. We're on Patreon. We have. In between episodes, we've got monthly amas. We've got other little things. We've. We've got a chat that seems to be like, sometimes work and sometimes not work. I've had my chat not work on my phone.

[Thomas Magby]

I did for a little while. I think it was just going through some. It's back now.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's back now.

[Thomas Magby]

I think also we're pretty active. Free members also get on there. I don't think that's anyone.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Anyone who signs up.

[Thomas Magby]

So free members can also chat with us.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So I didn't know you can sign up for a free membership on Patreon, where we all.

[Graham Donaldson]

For a long time, we were all sharing pictures of our pets, which was kind of adorable. Yeah. And. Yeah. If you. So thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time.

[Thomas Magby]

Catch on the flippy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Bye.