← Classical Stuff You Should Know
Classical Stuff You Should Know
278: Marcus Aurelius's "Meditations"
01:06:52
Because stinky people are the worst.
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- [00:10]
Graham
Okay, good job.
- [00:12]
Thomas
Yeah, thanks.
- [00:12]
AJ
The one thing I was reminded of is when Kierkegaard, I think it was Kierkegaard, when he talks about, like, when he was a little kid, his parents were like, we're gonna go to the beach. And he was like, oh, I'm freaking excited for the beach. And he spent all this time, like, being super excited to go to the beach. And, oh, it's like two weeks away. It's a week away. We're going to the beach tomorrow. And then the trip fell through and his dad was like, but you've already had the pleasure of going to the beach in your anticipation of the beach.
- [00:37]
Thomas
And ought to punch him in the mouth.
- [00:39]
AJ
But then I kind of feel like his dad was giving Soren Kierkegaard the, like, stoic response to it. Like, the moment you had of anticipation to the beach was the pleasure of the beach. And you need to accept the fact that you're not going to the beach and let the pleasure of the anticipation of the beach be enough for you and, like, heart, you know, I kind of feel like that's a little bit of the like, like, weaponized stoicism gone bad.
- [01:05]
Thomas
I feel like that's. That's weaponized and probably bad stoicism. I don't think that any real stoic would say that the anticipation is the same as the actual pleasure. I think a real stoic would say, like, you probably let yourself get too involved in a pleasure that you were anticipating.
- [01:20]
AJ
You shouldn't even get excited for the beach in the first place.
- [01:23]
Thomas
Ye. Why can't you find your happiness here? Like, what's so special about the beach? I think that would have been more accurate to stoicism. But I also think that what was really happening was a dad that didn't want to hear his kid complain all week about not going to the beach. So it's funny the things we remember. Like, his dad was probably just trying to get him to shut up and not talk so much.
- [01:40]
AJ
But isn't there, like, because. Because our desires can cause the human person to go so far in pathological directions. Our mission in life should be to, like, basically contain and ref and like, contain our desires as sort of strong, armed as possible. Like, that seems to be a bit of a common thread in this, in stoicism, right?
- [02:11]
Thomas
Yeah. And it's so dangerous.
- [02:13]
AJ
Like you. It can wreck a human life in a thousand different ways. Therefore, you need to keep sort of like tight control on, like, those sort of almost like the animalistic desires of the human heart.
- [02:26]
Thomas
I Think it's just when you become enslaved to it. Like, I don't know that it has to be. I think probably the Stoics strong arm, a little hard, but yeah, I'm with you. I think Stoics probably got go too far and deny a lot of the simple pleasures that we should absolutely enjoy and honestly desire. Right.
- [02:44]
AJ
Because they could become idols in their own right, which is.
- [02:48]
Thomas
Yeah. I mean you can't let them enslave you. But I should. You. You can enjoy coffee and maybe even though I think it has enslaved you.
- [02:54]
AJ
Maybe that probably has literally. Maybe that is my. Like the. I think the Stoics understand that we can turn things into idols that will never satisfy us there. But then the solution is which I think they're right. I think they can look at the. Look at the way people have gone wrong and said they have let other people's opinions of them or their own pleasure or their own like sense of inferiority and desire to control. Like, I think the Stoics can look at the pathological ways that the human person can go wrong and say we need to avoid those. But like the solution is trying. Like if the problem is worshiping the wrong things, their solution seems to be try not to worship anything. Is that fair?
- [03:48]
Thomas
But I don't think try not to worship is accurate. Marcus worshiped the gods, brings it up repeatedly. Like, I believe in them because I've experienced them, because they've helped me. And he thanks them for a bunch of things that they give to him. I don't think that's fair to say they don't worship. I think their worship is oriented towards. It's almost a pantheism right towards nature and the all.
- [04:09]
AJ
I guess more I'm also thinking about like I was joking with Thomas when you were getting the episode ready that in many ways the sort of modern Stoicism that's happening in the sort of the Zeitgeist is. I called it like Bible study for atheists or Bible study for people who don't go to church because it's almost treated that way. It's like, let's, you know, even some of. There's even Marcus Aurelius Meditations or there's even Ryan Holiday's Stoic. He's got like Daily Stoic Reader and it's like, it looks like it's Bible study. It looks like, like it's even packaged like. Like a Christian daily devotional.
- [04:45]
Graham
Right?
- [04:45]
AJ
Like they're daily devotional, but they're Stoic readings. And so do you. Okay, maybe I'll see you. This question, AJ after having read Marcus Aurelius, do you think Marcus. The Stoicism that Marcus Aurelius sort of advocates can work without some kind of appeal to the gods, without some kind of belief in the transcendent? Like, can you have a purely materialistic. This is all there is. Stoicism?
- [05:15]
Thomas
I think. I think you can only if you define the human life in a certain way, right? That if. If the point of human life is to pursue happiness and happiness comes via virtue, then I think you can. Like, I mean, there were a lot of philosophers prior to the Stoics who said that, right? Man is made for virtue because virtue is the good human life.
- [05:35]
AJ
And I think they've all agreed in some kind of metaphysical. Some sort of transcendent, some kind of, like, objective arbiter of. Of, like, the virtues itself. Like, if you have a sort of a relativist that is, like, whatever, man. We're just electric meat that, like, have sensory inputs and these sensory input of all my things, like, give me pleasure and, like, you know, don't. Don't moralize to me about, like, doing my duty and responsibility. Like, I got my honeys.
- [06:00]
Thomas
He would say, you're. You're hurt. Like, you are making yourself unhappy. Yeah, like that guy, the. I'm just electric meat, and I'm just jazzing my electric meat and I got all my honeys. That guy's not gonna live a happy life.
- [06:09]
AJ
But why not?
- [06:10]
Thomas
Because he. Because, like, they've seen where that ends. That man lives in sorrow. Because that's what virtue, like virtue is the prescription for.
- [06:20]
AJ
The only reason that he's. That he can believe that is because of a belief in. In the gods.
- [06:26]
Thomas
No, it's because. It's because those things ultimately leave you empty. Jazz the meat as much as you want, have the honeys, but eventually you're gonna have, like, human attachments that then fail, and you're gonna have illegitimate children, and you're gonna have, like, pleasures that don't satisfy anymore. You can only take so much heroin before it's not so great anymore. Um, I think. I think theirs is a practical prescription. The weird thing about Marcus is that he struggles. It seems like there's doubt here. He believes in the gods, but he's constantly saying, like, when we die, we go to the gods or we're obliterated. One of the two, and I should be okay with either. And then he keeps on saying, like, we're either the divine spark of the gods or we're just atoms. Like, I think this was right when the theory of atoms was coming out. And so he was sort of dealing with all of the new science. And he's like. But he never spends enough time jumping into that because I think he, from his perspective, has a job to do, right? He's like, my job is not to figure out what we are and where we're going. I know what's right. I know what my duty is. I know what I'm here for, which is to help other people, especially in the position that I have. And I shouldn't fall into the pitfalls that other emperors fell into, which is pleasure and worrying about their legacy. They're all dead. Even the people who worshiped them were dead. Their whole houses and families are gone. So I can't fall into that, and I can't fall into worrying about what other people think of me, because that is the prescription for a crazed emperor. Like he was. He was especially vigilant, I think, because when he falls into one of those.
- [07:52]
AJ
Pitfalls, he brings down a whole society.
- [07:54]
Thomas
He brings an empire down, right? Like, he's seen it happen time and time again. And so he had to constantly be vigilant. Don't worry about fame. Don't fall to what they're saying about you. Like, don't worry about these things. You have to be there, be steady, be good, and work for the good of other people. And you see that come out in his writings, which I really appreciate. The question I never asked us, because we went over time, was, if you could create your ideal leader, how would you want him to view himself, the people that he's with, the court that he surrounds himself with, and, like, the purpose of the world? I mean, it seemed like not a great question because you guys are probably going to answer with, like, you know, Judeo Christian principles, but there's a lot of stuff in him that I would want in a leader that he's not worried about fame, he's not worried about legacy. He wants to help people. He thinks his job is to be unselfish. All of those things are great for a leader.
- [08:44]
Graham
So I think you, Graham, might have a problem. I like with the Meditations that it is a humanist work, to your question. I don't think you need a religious background to buy into the Meditations. I think that's a strength of the work, is that I could hand this to anyone and say, I think there's a lot of wisdom here in what a good life looks like now. I don't think it's the fullness of wisdom. But I would rather have a company with a bunch of people who read the Meditations and love it than not. Right.
- [09:13]
Thomas
And the other thing is that it's not a philosophical system you have to buy into. Like, you don't have to be a stoic to appreciate a lot of the things that he says here. And so I like that it doesn't give a full orbed viewpoint for how you should view yourself in the world. Right. It's from a guy who himself kind of has doubts, but he says, but this is what we're here to do, and this is what makes the human life good.
- [09:36]
AJ
If the gods came down and told Marcus Aurelius that they loved him, what would his response be as a stoic?
- [09:44]
Thomas
I know. Maybe. I know you think so.
- [09:47]
Graham
Wow, interesting.
- [09:48]
AJ
I thought it would be. I can't let this change me.
- [09:53]
Thomas
No. He says again and again and again that the whole of nature is good and it is all bent towards good, and the gods have created it that way. And so the things that happen to you, even if they seem bad to you at the moment, altogether they are good. Like he, weirdly enough, he takes almost the same position I do with God's sovereignty and that, like God has a good plan and things are working towards that plan. And even if they seem bad to me in the moment, like, I can endure. Marcus Aurelius has the same viewpoint. His viewpoint is that on the whole, nature is good and it wouldn't include anything in the whole tapestry that isn't itself good. And so, yep, there are like thorns and thistles and stuff. And he sort of works that out with himself as he writes. But his view, I think, is that nature is good. The gods are part of that nature. The gods love him like, it is all good.
- [10:39]
AJ
So what's.
- [10:40]
Thomas
So I am here to help because we're created in unity. We're social creatures.
- [10:44]
AJ
What's his theodicy about evil?
- [10:48]
Graham
It's caused by individuals. Right.
- [10:50]
Thomas
Like us not living in accordance. Yeah. I think evil is when you don't live in accordance with your own human nature.
- [10:56]
AJ
So it's a willpower. It's just sort of the. The human willpower gone wrong.
- [11:00]
Thomas
Yeah. He says, like, you know, stuff can happen to you, but it's like it's calamity. It's not good or bad in and of itself. Good or bad is how you react to it. That's. At least that's my understanding. I'd have to go through it again, but yeah.
- [11:09]
Graham
Is there not an evil force and stoicism because there is like a religious aspect to it. The gods. Like you're saying there's a positive.
- [11:16]
Thomas
I don't think so. Okay. He does seem to waver. And this is where I think, like, logically it gets a little squishy is where he, he sees it as kind of like a randomness sometimes, but also like a tapestry at other times.
- [11:27]
AJ
So he doesn't have a. He doesn't have a theological position about like an evil, a Satan, a deceiver of someone who's trying to bring discord and chaos?
- [11:36]
Thomas
No, it seems like evil is when you do not adhere to your human, Human nature. And by human nature, I don't mean like body, I mean soul. Like, he seems like human nature is the soul that is your spark of the divine. And the body often detracts from it, which seems to be in accordance with a lot of the old, you know, with Plato and Socrates and those guys too.
- [11:58]
AJ
Yeah. Again, a lot of my hardness on the Stoics comes from like, thinking like, feeling like the, the, The Christian ethic tent can stretch to almost cover them as opposed to like, like if someone's, you know, advocating a life of, of hedonistic pleasure. You don't get. I, I feel like. I don't get frustrated with that just because it's like. I think it's just so, like you, like, you're right. Like you're just hurting yourself. But stoicism can get so close to it that I almost. That's why I get like, I get not frustrated. I just sort of. There's the quibble with the quibble with almost the, like the holdouts that stoicism has about love and relationship and community.
- [12:49]
Thomas
I even think he says, like, there is a real strength needed for love. Like the kind of love that I need to have for them needs a certain kind of strength. And there are things that like, detract from it. So he does want to love other people, but I'm with you. And that I think stoicism, in viewing certain things as pleasures which need to be done away with and pitfalls, prevents us from having real attachments that, yes, sometimes come with pain, but are a healthy, good part of human life. Like father, son, entrapments, like, or not entrapment, but like, you know, relationships or enjoying coffee every day. Like, I don't think that there's a wrong there.
- [13:27]
AJ
Yeah, I, I worry that like the stoic answer. So I'm thinking of. We're not going to get, have time to get to it. This recording. We'll get back to it. But, like, you know, the. If you think in Crime Punishment, the, like, Katerina Ivanovna character, the character that's, like, married to an alcoholic who's never going to change, and she toughs it out because it's her duty as a wife and. And like, she is waiting for God to give her a miracle. Like, I kind of feel like the stoics would say, katerina, you need to sit your husband down and exclaim to him that he is an alcoholic and tell him why this is wrong and why this is hurting him, why this is hurting you. And if he doesn't change, you need to cut him off from the affections of your heart so that he doesn't. He doesn't move you to be. To, like, you know, upset you and make you upset and make you angry and all this kind of stuff. And. But she stays with him and is angry with him to the very end of his life and has this amazing scene where she tells the priest that she does this because she's forgiven him. And I just want. And I think that, like, Stokes will look at that and say, like, well, Katarina, you're just being an idiot. You should have left him a long time ago and gone and, like, you know, worked on yourself instead. And I. And do you sort of get. My criticism is I feel like the Stoic says, well, as soon as you explain to them once and they don't get it, like, move on because they're never going to change.
- [14:54]
Graham
Now, I guess I'm not sure because I also could see them saying that no other situation will make you happy. Therefore, like, changing who you're around should not change who you are or how you feel. And so I could. Maybe this is because your question before was like, does Marcus Aurelius have this broader ethical system he lays out? And he doesn't. And so if you start from the place of, I am going to stay in this marriage, therefore, how should I act? You should, I don't know, maybe some kind of emotional separation.
- [15:23]
AJ
The father in the prodigal son story to treat his son stoically and. Or should we. Do we want it like. Or do we want him to be looking over the horizon every day in case his son comes back? I don't. You know. You know what I mean? Like, there's. It seems like there is a. I feel like stoicism does a lot to quarantine or to limit the pathologies and the negative aspects of, like, human sinful nature, but it can. It does not. It does not Open us up to. Well, it true charity and the true, the true, like love of relationship.
- [16:00]
Thomas
Yeah. It veers into avoidance of pain. Like Buddhism.
- [16:02]
AJ
Yes. Yeah.
- [16:03]
Thomas
Right. And that, and I think there is a. There are some benefits to that, aj Perfectly said. Like life isn't just about avoiding pain. Yes. Much of love comes with pain.
- [16:13]
AJ
Yes.
- [16:14]
Thomas
Like we all know this, that when you love something, you have to be ready to be. Go. Go through the pain of how you love your bike. Like how I love my bike.
- [16:22]
AJ
Now you have a black eye and.
- [16:23]
Thomas
Now I have a black eye and no bike. And hopefully it's in bike hospital. Yeah, well, hopefully I don't have to buy a whole new one. But in any case, like, it has, it has the same pitfall that Buddhism does where it goes so far as to say we're trying to avoid those pains that it doesn't allow for the pains that are part and parcel of a well lived human life.
- [16:45]
Graham
It's just funny because in the prodigal son story, I'm thinking the stoic would say you would prefer that he. That the father's life be wrecked by his son leaving him.
- [16:53]
AJ
No, I would say that. Oh, this. No.
- [16:56]
Graham
Yes, he should feel joy when he comes back, but in a weird way, it's like he has a. He does not fall apart at the, at his, at his son looking him in the eye, essentially telling him he wishes he was dead and then leaving. Like, the house continues after that. And yes, there's joy when he comes back. We're not sure Aurelius would be opposed to that.
- [17:15]
Thomas
No. Yeah, I don't think he would. Yeah, I think that would be a. I think that'd be fine with stoicism. I don't think stoicism goes as far. Graham as you're afraid that it does. But I am with you on that same concern that I think it does perhaps prevent you from having certain pleasures that you should have. Like I should. I shouldn't be whispering to myself every night I put my kid to bed. He might die tomorrow. That's unhealthy. I should not be telling myself, don't get too attached to your son. I should get attached. I should feel bad when he's gone.
- [17:40]
AJ
I guess my fear is like, for the stoic maxers out there, it's going to set them up for like, like insulating themselves from true human relationship and patting themselves on the back for like being a dis. A detached, A detached stoic that is not allowing the. Is not being. Letting their heart be moved. Like all the Normies out there. Like, that's my concern for the stoic, Max.
- [18:09]
Thomas
Stoic maxing is now the most horrible thing I've heard today. And that's where I think we should probably end.
- [18:14]
AJ
We can end there.
- [18:15]
Graham
Bye, everyone.
- [18:16]
AJ
That was great.
- [18:16]
Thomas
Thanks, Patreon. We love you guys. Bill. As a voluntary accommodation to what is, in any case, inevitable, according to this theory, man is like a dog tied to a moving wagon. If the dog refuses to run along with the wagon, he will be dragged by it. Yet the choice remains to run or be dragged. In the same way, humans are responsible for their choices and actions, even though these have been anticipated by the Logos and form part of its plan. Even actions which appear to be, and indeed are immoral or unjust advance the overall design, which, taken as a whole, is harmonious and good. They too are governed by the Logos. Okay.
- [18:56]
AJ
With Marcus, I don't want to run or be dragged. That sounds terrible.
- [18:59]
Thomas
Well, the thing is, I'm not even sure Marcus himself would kind of adhere to that. It seems like throughout the entire thing, he has this dichotomy between the divine spark that is in man, which is your humanity. Like, your soul is not a material thing, Right? It sort of directs the body, but it is not the body, and it's its own thing. And I think if you asked about human nature, he would say that is the nature of your soul. The body is largely a distraction to that. Right? It has wants, it has needs. You often get tied up in pleasures. These things are a detraction from what your real humanity is doing. And I think for Marcus, to align yourself with nature is to align yourself as much as possible with soul rather than body. Right? There is that divine spark, and that divine spark is part of the Logos just as much as your body is.
- [19:42]
AJ
I'm getting tied up in the pleasure of this. The rum of this coffee.
- [19:46]
Thomas
Yeah.
- [19:46]
AJ
Sounds pretty amazing.
- [19:47]
Thomas
You gotta leave it behind, buddy.
- [19:48]
AJ
I can't.
- [19:48]
Thomas
It's your.
- [19:49]
Graham
It's.
- [19:49]
Thomas
You're.
- [19:49]
Graham
You're.
- [19:49]
Thomas
You're marring your human nature.
- [19:50]
AJ
Can't I. What's. Can I just, like, give in to.
- [19:53]
Thomas
The bodily pleasure just this once?
- [19:55]
Graham
Okay.
- [19:55]
Thomas
Okay. So I'm not sure he would have said, like, we have no choice, but we might as well. I think for Marcus, like, if we are going to adhere to nature, then, yeah, we have to try to yearn as much for our natural human nature as we can, which is spirit. But again, none of this is that specific. He's actually sort of against what he calls logic chopping. And he doesn't really dive into it that much. These are just reminders to him about how to govern well. And as far as I can tell.
- [20:21]
AJ
Because he never sat down, like, codified this into a, like, all right, let's write out every precept of this philosophy.
- [20:28]
Thomas
No, not even close. In fact, he reiterated several things a bunch of times. And as far as I can tell, I've written down six things that I sort of see as themes. These are not exhaustive. This is not official. I haven't gone back through and checked these. This is just, like, kind of the feeling I get as I went through.
- [20:42]
AJ
Don't come at us stoic bros.
- [20:44]
Thomas
So, number one, he's trying to remind himself not to fear death. It is natural and not threatening. And he says, and when we die. And it seems like Marcus always has a little seed of doubt about the gods and what happens after he dies. So he says, either we're gonna go to the gods or we're gonna dissolve into nothing. And if we're nothing, then we don't feel bad. And if we're going to the gods, and it's a good thing so there's nothing to fear. And that, like, hey, don't fear death. It's okay. Takes many different forms.
- [21:12]
AJ
That's like almost that Socratic apology.
- [21:16]
Thomas
It is. And one of them is the future and the past don't exist. All you have is this one fleeting moment. And when you die, that's really all you lose is the one fleeting moment that you're in. And that's not much. Not a big deal. And he's like. He constantly reminds himself to think about the old dead emperors and their legacy and the people who mourned them. They're gone, too. So why worry about my legacy? And why fear death? Like, it's just constant. Number two.
- [21:37]
AJ
I kind of like the fleeting moment, though.
- [21:39]
Thomas
Me, too.
- [21:40]
AJ
Yeah.
- [21:40]
Thomas
Yeah. Number two, people are the worst, but they hurt themselves and not you, so don't be mad. It seems like he is constantly having to remind himself that, yes, they are all turds, but I can. I can suffer a turd here and there. And what I should do is teach them how they are going wrong without getting myself in a tiff. He's constantly having to remind himself that.
- [22:01]
Graham
Means he's getting annoyed by people.
- [22:02]
Thomas
Oh, for sure.
- [22:03]
Graham
Yeah.
- [22:03]
Thomas
Yeah. It seems like life at court often vexed him. Number three, orient oneself away from concern what other people think about you, and instead do your civic duty with unselfish action. So he's like, don't get Concerned about legacy or fame or what everyone else thinks. Or don't worry about all of that. You have a job to do and it's to be unselfish and to work for the unity of the whole because that's what nature is, that's logos. So don't get wrapped up in everybody else and in legacy and in fame and all that praise and nonsense. You don't want any of that. Even if they're talking bad about you, it's not your concerned. So he's just reminding himself, stay separate from the will of the multitudes. Number four. The universe is a flow of time all of which has been the same. Like it's just the same dang cycle over and over again. Things change and then drop and die. All we have is the present, all we can lose is the present. So don't stress. It doesn't do anybody any good. And don't yearn for temporal things. So he's just constantly reminding himself like this is all temporary, we will all die. It's not a big deal. And it's the same thing over and over again. Nothing is new. So don't stress.
- [23:09]
AJ
Do you think you just said don't stress has never done anybody any good. But don't you think a little bit of stress does you good?
- [23:17]
Thomas
Probably it does me good sometimes.
- [23:19]
AJ
And even under the like the definition, like a baby who wants to develop and grow. Like if a baby didn't stress out about life, a baby would never strive to speak or to walk. I don't know. I'm just saying there's, there's something about like desire which has been a little stuck on my craw about, about stoicism is that it casts a, like a. It looks at desire askance and doesn't and thinks that does human desire is a, is a bad thing. But I often wonder if like, if we really could cut out desire the way that they talk about would that not. Would we not have sort of these knock on effects that wouldn't be good. Don't we want a little stress to grow? Our bodies need stress in order to get stronger.
- [24:04]
Thomas
I don't think Marcus would agree with you in that stoicism says no stress or no desire. Because he says clearly there are things I'm here to do. I am here to be unselfish, to serve my fellow man, to decouple myself from pleasures and to be good. And so if you don't desire to be good, you're doing it wrong. There's a couple of quotes I will read today. That are like. Well, if you're having trouble, like, getting out of bed, here's what you do. So decouple from all pleasure. We'll get there.
- [24:32]
AJ
I love sauces.
- [24:34]
Thomas
The pleasure you should get is from.
- [24:35]
AJ
Like, on, like food, doing good.
- [24:38]
Thomas
From being a good person.
- [24:38]
AJ
Peso.
- [24:40]
Thomas
Okay. If those things are what motivate you, then you're doing something wrong. And so I think he's saying, move from stress to unstressed, serene. Right. Action. I know what I have to do. I know how to do it. There's nothing that should perturb me while I do it. If it goes wrong, like, it's probably something I can't control, or it's something I can and I can get better. Right. There's no reason to stress about it, but there is reason to act. And I think that that's what he would say. Okay, number five. Find serenity and simplicity in according oneself with nature and with virtue. Number six. Only the soul can be good or bad, and all is in accordance with nature. So things can happen to you, but they're only good or bad if you feel that they are. Like anything outside of you is just calamity. It's just circumstance. It is how you react to it that makes it good or bad. Okay, so those are the six. Don't fear death. People are the worst. Orient yourself away from what other people think. Universe is a flow of time, so don't freak out. Find serenity and simplicity according yourself with nature. And only the soul can be good or bad. That's kind of what I see reiterated again and again and again. Okay, you guys ready for Quiz Show?
- [25:45]
AJ
Let's do it.
- [25:45]
Thomas
So because this is just sort of a collection of sayings and phrases, I.
- [25:48]
AJ
Desire to win Quiz Show. It will give me pleasure.
- [25:52]
Thomas
So negative.
- [25:53]
Graham
Pointed off the bat. Right?
- [25:55]
Thomas
It's. Yeah. So it's a collection of phrases. So I figure that the best way to do it is to read some of them and have these guys try to fill it in. You're probably going to get it wrong. So I'm just going to give the point to whoever I think got closest.
- [26:10]
Graham
Okay.
- [26:11]
Thomas
Right. Because getting it right is kind of tough.
- [26:13]
Graham
Yeah.
- [26:14]
Thomas
Okay, so let me flip to my.
- [26:17]
Graham
Are you looking for a copy of this?
- [26:18]
AJ
I'm looking for a ding, ding, ding. I'm looking for some sort of buzzer.
- [26:21]
Thomas
Oh, here. Before. Before we get there, I have. I had a few things I could read that are sort of like a good summary of the things that he tells himself again and again and involves that Wake up in the morning. One that I was talking about. So when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself, the people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly. And this is what follows. Right after he thanks everyone for making him who he was.
- [26:42]
Graham
That's great.
- [26:43]
Thomas
They are like this because they can't tell good from evil. But I have seen the beauty of good and the ugliness of evil and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own. Not of the same blood or birth, but of the same mind and possessing a share of the divine. And so none of them can hurt me. No one can implicate me in ugliness, nor can I feel angry at my relative or hate him. We were born to work together like feet, hands and eyes, like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him. These are obstructions. Whatever this is that I am, it is flesh and a little spirit and an intelligence. Throw away your books. Stop letting yourself be distracted. That is not allowed. Instead, if you were dying right now, despise your flesh. A mess of blood, pieces of bone, a woven tangle of nerves, veins and arteries. Consider what the spirit is. Air. And never the same air, but vomited out and gulped in again every instant. Finally, the intelligence. Think of it this. You're an old man. Stop allowing your mind to be a slave, to be jerked about by selfish impulses, to kick against fate in the present and to mistrust the future. 3. What is divine is full of providence. Even chance is not divorced from nature, from the. In weaving and unfolding of things governed by providence. Everything proceeds from it. And then there is necessity in the needs of the whole world of which you are a part. Whatever the nature of the whole does and whatever serves to maintain it is good for every part of nature. The world is maintained by change in the elements and in the things they compose. That should be good enough for you. Treat it as an axiom. Discard your thirst for books so that you won't die in bitterness, but in cheerfulness and truth, grateful to the gods from the bottom of your heart. Okay, that's a good, like, base start. Yeah, I think. Okay. I think I may have lost my first little quote. Ah, there we go. Okay. Found it. Okay. So I'm gonna. You'll have to fill in the blank.
- [28:45]
Graham
Yeah.
- [28:45]
Thomas
If you seek tranquility, do blank.
- [28:53]
AJ
Your duty.
- [28:54]
Graham
Do what is right, do what is good.
- [29:00]
Thomas
Both failures. If you seek tranquility, do less. Or more accurately, do what's essential. So wait, what'd you say? What is natural?
- [29:08]
Graham
I said, what is good?
- [29:09]
AJ
I said your duty.
- [29:10]
Thomas
Duty feels pretty close to essential. Alright, I think point goes to grandma's turn.
- [29:13]
Graham
Yeah, I'll give it to grandma.
- [29:17]
Thomas
What the logos of a social being requires, and in the requisite way, which brings a double satisfaction, to do less. Better. Because most of what they say and do is not essential. If you can eliminate it, you'll have more time and more tranquility. Ask yourself at every moment, is this necessary? But we need to eliminate unnecessary assumptions as well, to eliminate the unnecessary actions that follow.
- [29:39]
AJ
Okay, what about, like, going on a date?
- [29:43]
Graham
Do less.
- [29:44]
AJ
Are those necessary dates?
- [29:45]
Graham
Yeah. No. Yes, of course.
- [29:48]
AJ
Or like, I don't know, like, telling your kids you love them? I guess that's necessary.
- [29:56]
Thomas
Yeah, and it's part of, like, unselfish action. And it's helped for the unity of the whole. He would say that. Absolutely do those things.
- [30:00]
AJ
What would be like, an unnecessary action?
- [30:03]
Thomas
Getting up and like, farting around on your phone. Yeah, probably. It doesn't help anything. Doesn't help unify. It doesn't help. It's not unselfish. I think he says pretty much, we are put here for unselfish action. That's what humans are made for. All right, so get rid of the rest of it. I did want to read an extra side one. So in between little quizzes, I'll have some others that I want to read. This one just says, there's nothing else than this number 28 character. Dark, womanish, obstinate, period, Wolf, sheep, child, fool, cheat, buffoon, salesman, tyrant.
- [30:40]
Graham
That's it.
- [30:41]
Thomas
That's the whole entry. I don't know what that means.
- [30:43]
AJ
It's a bad day.
- [30:44]
Graham
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:45]
Thomas
He's just feeling rough. He may have had a little too much to drink that night. You know, you never know. What are you saying?
- [30:52]
AJ
I was gonna say, what's the stoic answer to someone that's like, screw it, I'm gonna do bad things because I like it. I want to be bad.
- [30:59]
Thomas
He'd say, you're denying your human nature.
- [31:01]
AJ
But what if I say, like, but it got me all this cash?
- [31:05]
Thomas
He'd say, you are confused about what is good and you're hurting yourself.
- [31:09]
AJ
Sitting on a mountain of cocaine and.
- [31:12]
Thomas
You'Re very confused about what is good.
- [31:14]
AJ
I am. I say hello to my little friend. Like, why?
- [31:19]
Thomas
He would say, you're. You're hurting yourself.
- [31:21]
AJ
I'm not, though.
- [31:21]
Thomas
You are that much cocaine. You. Yes, you are. I've seen that movie. It doesn't end well.
- [31:26]
AJ
I guess so. Well, what about the person? What about. What does the stoic say to the person? That's like, you and I both end up in the same place. You can, like, deny yourself and do your unselfish action and I'm gonna, like, party.
- [31:39]
Thomas
You will have lived a less happy.
- [31:40]
AJ
Life, and that's just like. And you just have to.
- [31:44]
Thomas
And you will not be in accordance with nature and you'll be. You'll be hurting yourself the whole time.
- [31:47]
AJ
And then what if someone just goes.
- [31:48]
Thomas
Okay, like, then he would say, you know what?
- [31:51]
Graham
Then they're sad.
- [31:52]
Thomas
Then let them go like they're confused. Let him go do that. And that is not out of sync with most of the older philosophers.
- [31:58]
AJ
You know that meme of, like, the guy that's in the corner and everyone's dancing around him and having the party. Like, it feels like the guy in the corner. So, like, they're not acting in accordance with nature and everyone's like, woo, this song's awesome.
- [32:08]
Thomas
But I think again, you're still, like, you're oversimplifying his position. Would Marcus Aurelius celebrate if there was cause for celebration? I think absolutely.
- [32:15]
AJ
Yeah.
- [32:16]
Thomas
Yeah. Like, would he party if there was reason to party? If it was like a festival?
- [32:20]
Graham
If you would.
- [32:21]
Thomas
I don't know.
- [32:21]
AJ
It feels like it's unnecessary.
- [32:22]
Graham
Yeah, I would think that might be a no.
- [32:25]
Thomas
I think you guys are being a little too hard on him here.
- [32:27]
AJ
Saying, like.
- [32:28]
Graham
I'm not saying that negatively. It's just. I think he'd want to be regular.
- [32:30]
AJ
Would he buy tickets to, like, you know, scl? Like, would he just want to go be like, let's just.
- [32:37]
Thomas
Let's.
- [32:37]
AJ
Let's just go hard this weekend and go to scl. Sorry.
- [32:40]
Graham
For classical learning.
- [32:41]
Thomas
You mean you're gonna. I was gonna say, why did you want to buy tickets for that? What?
- [32:46]
AJ
I mean, ACL.
- [32:47]
Graham
ACL, sir.
- [32:49]
AJ
Yeah. You know, SCLs go hard.
- [32:52]
Thomas
I think it would. I think part of it would depend because he was. He was devout. And I think it would depend on if it was like a festival to the gods. He would probably. He would probably engage. Yeah.
- [33:01]
AJ
I don't know.
- [33:02]
Graham
He believes in the word and find out. But yeah, I think I might take the no on that one.
- [33:05]
Thomas
Okay. Number two, second quiz. If you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself.
- [33:11]
Graham
Oh, what? This is the part where he says, don't go back to sleep. Right. Like, you take the furs off of you and you get out of bed. Like, tell yourself to get out of bed.
- [33:20]
AJ
If you don't want to get out of bed, tell yourself you're going to die one day.
- [33:29]
Thomas
I think point goes to Thomas on this one. At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself, I have to go to work as a human being. What do I have to complain of if I'm going to do what I was born for? The things I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under the blankets and stay warm? And then he even argues with himself here. But it's nicer here. So you were born to feel nice instead of doing things and experiencing them. Don't you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their individual tasks, putting the world in order as best they can. And you're not willing to do your job as a human being. Why aren't you running to do what your nature demands? But we have to sleep sometime. Agreed. But nature set a limit on that, as it did eating and drinking. And you're over the limit. You've had more than enough of that. But not of working. You're still below your quota. You don't love yourself enough or you'd love your nature too, and what it demands of you. People who love what they do wear themselves down doing it. Or even forget to wash or eat. Do you have less respect for your own nature than the engraver does for engraving? Or the dancer for the dance? Or the miser for money? Or the social climber for status? When they're really possessed by what they do, they'd rather stop eating and sleeping than give up practicing their arts. Is helping others less valuable to you? Not worth your effort?
- [34:43]
Graham
That's a good one. Gotta get out of bed.
- [34:49]
Thomas
There's one right here that says no one could ever accuse you of being quick witted. All right. But there are plenty of other things you can't claim you haven't got in you. So he's just kind of encouraging himself because I think people call them dumb sometimes. Poor guy. Okay, quiz number it's one to one, right?
- [35:07]
AJ
One to one.
- [35:08]
Graham
No, two. One.
- [35:09]
AJ
I got two. What was the second one? No, it's one to one.
- [35:11]
Thomas
Oh, by the way, Donaldson, you know that the obstacle is the way poster you have?
- [35:15]
AJ
That's Marcus.
- [35:16]
Graham
That's Ryan Holiday.
- [35:17]
Thomas
Yeah, I think it's from Marcus. Really?
- [35:18]
AJ
It is definitely Marcus.
- [35:18]
Graham
It is Aurelius.
- [35:19]
Thomas
Oh, yeah. I'm just having this realization. You already Knew this?
- [35:23]
Graham
Yes.
- [35:23]
Thomas
I just had the realization.
- [35:24]
Graham
Is this in your classroom?
- [35:25]
AJ
Yeah, I've got it in my class. It's what is in the way becomes the way. Something like that.
- [35:30]
Graham
Which is. It's in the meditations, right?
- [35:33]
AJ
Yeah, for sure.
- [35:33]
Thomas
So here's. Here's the quote I think it comes from. But when they. In a sense, people are our proper occupation. Our job is to do them good and put up with them. Right.
- [35:42]
Graham
We're jerks.
- [35:43]
Thomas
But when they obstruct our proper tasks, they become irrelevant to us. Like sun, wind and animals. Our actions may be impeded by them, but there can be no impeding our intentions or our disposition because we can accommodate and adapt. The mind adapts and converts its own purposes. Converts to its own purposes. The obstacle to our acting. The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.
- [36:05]
Graham
Yeah.
- [36:06]
Thomas
Yeah.
- [36:06]
Graham
That's where it comes from.
- [36:07]
Thomas
Yeah. Okay. Oh, where'd Quiz 3 go? I think some of my bookmarks have, like, slipped down. Ah, here we go. Okay, got it. Don't be irritated at people's blank.
- [36:25]
Graham
Gosh. Natures attitudes.
- [36:31]
Thomas
I think Graham gets this one. Don't be irritated at people's smell or bad breath. What's the point with that mouth, with those armpits? They're going to produce that odor argument. But they have a brain. Can't they figure it out? Can't they recognize the problem? So you have a brain as well. Good for you. Then use your logic to awaken his. Show him. Make him realize it. If he'll listen, then you've solved the problem without anger.
- [36:57]
AJ
You stink.
- [36:58]
Thomas
You stink, buddy. You smell bad. Oh, I find that entertaining. That's pretty funny. Okay, the number four. The best revenge is to.
- [37:14]
AJ
Not care.
- [37:16]
Graham
Succeed.
- [37:18]
Thomas
I think Point, Graham. The best revenge is to not be like that.
- [37:22]
AJ
I'm on a run.
- [37:23]
Graham
Not be like that.
- [37:24]
Thomas
Not be like them. All right. How you guys doing so far?
- [37:29]
Graham
Great. Three one.
- [37:30]
AJ
I mean, three to one Graham's.
- [37:33]
Thomas
Okay. If you had a stepmother and a real mother, you would pay your respects to your.
- [37:41]
AJ
Self.
- [37:45]
Graham
Real mother.
- [37:47]
Thomas
I think I gotta give Thomas this one.
- [37:49]
Graham
Is it gonna say stepmother?
- [37:51]
Thomas
You would pay your respects to your stepmother? Yes. But it's your real mother you'd come home to.
- [37:55]
Graham
There it is. Okay.
- [37:56]
Thomas
The court and philosophy keep returning to it to rest in its embrace. It's all that makes the court and you endurable. So to him, the court. The court is like the stepmom.
- [38:06]
Graham
Yeah.
- [38:07]
Thomas
And so philosophy is like the real mother. So pay your respects to Court. But keep on coming back to philosophy because it's the only thing that keeps you sane. Poor guy.
- [38:15]
Graham
Yeah, that's tough.
- [38:16]
Thomas
Sounds like life at court was not.
- [38:18]
Graham
Not his favorite.
- [38:18]
Thomas
Not awesome.
- [38:20]
AJ
I mean, people got assassinated all the time, right?
- [38:23]
Graham
I thought he spent a bunch of time at war. Right. During his life. That's. I don't know how often he was at court.
- [38:30]
Thomas
Yeah. Okay, this one's a triple. Three points available. Not with one question. Are there three separate questions? Okay.
- [38:37]
AJ
Three to two, right?
- [38:38]
Thomas
Three to two it is. Three to two in favor of Graham. All right. Ambition means what?
- [38:46]
Graham
Suffering.
- [38:48]
Thomas
Here, Maybe I'll give you a little more of it. Ambition means tying your blank to blank.
- [39:00]
Graham
Fate to the wind.
- [39:01]
Thomas
Okay.
- [39:02]
AJ
Your heart to nature.
- [39:08]
Thomas
I think. Thomas.
- [39:09]
Graham
Cool for two points. Or. That's gotta be 1.1.
- [39:12]
Thomas
Ambition means tying your well being to what other people say or do. That makes sense.
- [39:17]
AJ
Yeah. Fate to the wind is fine.
- [39:18]
Graham
Okay.
- [39:18]
Thomas
Yeah, sure. Okay. Self indulgence.
- [39:20]
AJ
Tie it all up. Thomas.
- [39:21]
Graham
Three. Three. Yeah.
- [39:22]
Thomas
Self indulgence means tying it to. So.
- [39:26]
Graham
I'm sorry, the first one. Ambition.
- [39:28]
Thomas
So ambition means tying your well being to what other people say or do. And self indulgence means tying it to the beast within. This was a great idea.
- [39:39]
Graham
I love these idea. Tying it to my desires. Yeah.
- [39:43]
Thomas
Ooh. Thomas.
- [39:44]
AJ
What? How?
- [39:45]
Graham
What is it?
- [39:46]
Thomas
Self indulgence means tying it to the things that happen to you.
- [39:49]
AJ
Okay, fine.
- [39:50]
Thomas
That's.
- [39:50]
Graham
Okay. Okay.
- [39:51]
Thomas
Sanity means tying it to the logos of the universe.
- [39:56]
Graham
Virtue, nature. Yeah.
- [39:58]
Thomas
Thomas. Again.
- [39:59]
Graham
Let's go.
- [40:00]
Thomas
Sanity means tying it to your own actions. I think virtue makes more sense there than logos.
- [40:06]
AJ
Thomas pulls it ahead four to three.
- [40:07]
Thomas
Yes, he does. He is ahead now. Oh, no. Five.
- [40:10]
AJ
Three.
- [40:10]
Graham
I was gonna say more than that. Yeah. Cause there were multiple points.
- [40:12]
Thomas
You're two points back, my friend.
- [40:13]
AJ
I don't care. I don't care.
- [40:16]
Graham
That's right. Yeah.
- [40:17]
Thomas
You want to be ambitious. Why are you tying your self worth to what other people think?
- [40:19]
AJ
What you think about me? I don't care about winning the game that we're all investing this time to play.
- [40:23]
Graham
Yeah. Seriously.
- [40:25]
Thomas
All right.
- [40:25]
Graham
Do we still have like eight more of these? I see a bunch of bookmarks in there.
- [40:28]
Thomas
Oh, yeah. We're on number seven of 15.
- [40:30]
Graham
Oh, you got plenty of time.
- [40:31]
Thomas
So we got a few. I figured this was the easiest way to like, read a bunch of the more interesting quotes.
- [40:35]
Graham
I've always wondered how to, like, do this book as an episode. Because you can't really summarize it. Like you. You group them into topics but it is literally just like thought, thought, thought, thought, thought.
- [40:42]
Thomas
Yeah. And they're all disparate and all kind of disconnect and there's no real thread through them all.
- [40:46]
AJ
This is the second time we've done the Meditations as an episode.
- [40:49]
Graham
Did you do the meditations?
- [40:50]
AJ
No. AJ's done the meditations.
- [40:51]
Thomas
No, I haven't.
- [40:52]
Graham
Not the Meditations.
- [40:52]
Thomas
I've never read this before.
- [40:53]
Graham
No, I think it was.
- [40:54]
Thomas
I've done.
- [40:55]
AJ
We did an episode on stoicism.
- [40:56]
Thomas
I've done the Enchi reading and I've.
- [40:57]
Graham
Done stoicism, but not on. Not on Marcus reeling.
- [40:59]
Thomas
Yeah. This is the first time for sure. So I figured this was the easiest and I tried to pick ones that were, like, funny and stood out rather than him saying, like, time is a river, like, like, over and over again. I thought the one about bad smelling people pretty good, especially funny. So I picked out those ones that are a little bit unique as best I can.
- [41:15]
Graham
Yeah.
- [41:15]
AJ
So would you say it's five to three?
- [41:16]
Graham
Yeah.
- [41:18]
AJ
Not that I am.
- [41:18]
Thomas
Yeah. Okay. This one is. Seems to be a definition of kingship, and I think he's quoting somebody because it's in quotes. I'm not sure.
- [41:28]
Graham
Cool.
- [41:29]
Thomas
But kingship, colon, is what kingship is. What? It's a clever aphorism. So you have to come up. I'll give you a second. Sing a little song.
- [41:43]
AJ
Kinship.
- [41:44]
Thomas
Kingship is kinship.
- [41:45]
AJ
Yeah.
- [41:46]
Thomas
Oh, I like that. That's so nice.
- [41:50]
Graham
Yeah, I don't have anything witty. Kingship is something about the sword of Damocles. Like, kingship is the threat over one's head. Something like that.
- [42:01]
Thomas
I think I got to give Graham this one.
- [42:02]
Graham
Let's go.
- [42:03]
Thomas
Kingship to earn a bad reputation by good deeds.
- [42:07]
Graham
That's good. I like that. That's good.
- [42:08]
AJ
All right.
- [42:09]
Thomas
Isn't that fun? I'll take it. Okay. I think this is. Oh, yeah, we can do two on this one. I'm going to throw in an extra one.
- [42:17]
Graham
Okay. 54.
- [42:22]
Thomas
I'm trying to figure out how to do this one in just. Yeah, I'll just read this one. It's hard to have a blank and have it make sense. It was just think of yourself as blank and that was gonna be too wide open. So think of yourself as dead. You have lived your life.
- [42:36]
AJ
That would be my guess.
- [42:37]
Thomas
Take what's left and live it possi. Really?
- [42:39]
AJ
Yeah.
- [42:39]
Thomas
And live it properly. Dang. I stole a point from you then. I'm sorry.
- [42:41]
AJ
That's all right.
- [42:42]
Graham
Keep doing that. Yeah.
- [42:43]
Thomas
Okay. This one, I think, is him. Just reminding himself the demeanor he should have. Not a dancer, but a.
- [42:50]
AJ
Stick in the mud.
- [42:53]
Thomas
You do not like the Stoics. What is your deal?
- [42:55]
Graham
A dancer but stick in the mud? Yeah.
- [43:00]
Thomas
You tried to party with stoics before. Is that your issue?
- [43:02]
AJ
They're, you know, they're like, you know, duty.
- [43:05]
Graham
Who are the like. But a priest, but like a sycophant. Not a sycophant, but like, whoever. Whoever. The person who, like, manages the temple.
- [43:14]
Thomas
A dj?
- [43:15]
Graham
A dj? Yeah.
- [43:16]
Thomas
The DJ manages the temple.
- [43:18]
Graham
Yeah, that sounds right.
- [43:19]
AJ
Not a dancer, but a dj.
- [43:20]
Graham
Yeah.
- [43:20]
AJ
What did I say? Stick in the mud. No, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Thomas. You were saying a priest.
- [43:25]
Graham
Yeah, Like a more religious role.
- [43:29]
Thomas
All right, we're going to crowd. Sort like, what do you guys think the answer is? Not a dancer, but a wrestler. Not close to priest. Not close to. Stick in the mud.
- [43:37]
Graham
Yeah.
- [43:37]
AJ
No, I think that's just a scrub.
- [43:40]
Thomas
It's a wash. So not a dancer, but a wrestler. Waited, waiting, poised, and dug in for sudden assaults.
- [43:47]
Graham
I like that.
- [43:48]
Thomas
Do you?
- [43:49]
AJ
That's how you want to live your life? Dug in, waiting for sudden assaults?
- [43:53]
Graham
Yes. Stoicism is good. Graham. Like, I just need. By the end of this episode, I want you to accept that there are good things in stoicism.
- [43:58]
Thomas
There are good things about stoicism. I actually really like it.
- [44:01]
Graham
It is great.
- [44:01]
AJ
No, no. So in my defense, I'm. It's one of those things where it's like, I'm being cranky because I respect it a lot.
- [44:07]
Graham
Okay.
- [44:07]
AJ
I really like stoicism.
- [44:09]
Graham
Then criticize the people who are bad. Not. But.
- [44:11]
AJ
But the, like, not meditation, the deficiencies. Like, it is way better than, like, living a life of sort of hedonistic pleasure. For sure.
- [44:20]
Graham
Yeah.
- [44:20]
AJ
But it is missing. It feels like it is missing a little, like, joie de vivre. Like, it feels like it is missing a little bit of, like. I like Chesterton more than I like Marcus Aurelius.
- [44:32]
Graham
Sure.
- [44:32]
AJ
Because Chesterton's. There's a little, like, you know, I don't know, like. Okay, when.
- [44:41]
Thomas
It's too early for this. It's too early to get to this conversation. Let's save it for the end of the episode. We can have it.
- [44:47]
AJ
Maybe in between.
- [44:48]
Thomas
We can have this. We can have the conversation. But I want to get through the quiz first.
- [44:52]
AJ
I want to win the game. That doesn't mean anything. To win, and I shouldn't.
- [44:55]
Graham
I don't know what the score is right now.
- [44:56]
Thomas
Where did I ever say Anything about not enjoying things.
- [44:59]
AJ
Not you.
- [44:59]
Thomas
Okay.
- [45:00]
AJ
I should sto stoics.
- [45:01]
Thomas
Yeah, that's fair.
- [45:02]
AJ
I should only control the answers I give. I shouldn't care about whether or not I win.
- [45:06]
Thomas
Okay, there are three points available for this one.
- [45:08]
Graham
Great.
- [45:08]
Thomas
It is not a three question thing, but there are three things that he lists. So you can each give your lists and I will give the appropriate points.
- [45:15]
Graham
Thank you.
- [45:16]
Thomas
Perfection of character is. Use a little colon. Perfection of character. Colon. To live your last day, every day, without these three things. It's a list of three things. That's. Perfection of character.
- [45:33]
Graham
Concern for the opinions of others without malice, without ill action. Without vice.
- [45:46]
AJ
I was gonna say. Oh, gosh, I don't know. Complaining, like trumpeting your. Your virtues. Like. Like. Like self. Self. What's the word? Like marketing yourself.
- [46:06]
Graham
Aggrandizement.
- [46:07]
AJ
Yeah. And perfection of character. Not complaining. Not pumping your own tires and not worrying about outcomes.
- [46:20]
Graham
It's gonna be like three for Graham, right?
- [46:23]
Thomas
I think Graham.
- [46:24]
AJ
They're so similar.
- [46:25]
Thomas
They're so close. Okay, what were your three again?
- [46:27]
Graham
Heck if I. I don't remember. Do you just wanna read the three and we'll figure it out?
- [46:29]
Thomas
So I gave you one point, Thomas. Cause you're, like, concerned what other people think about you. I think got close to one. So the three things are frenzy, sloth, and pretense. So concerning what other people think of you. I think that's a point, Thomas.
- [46:43]
Graham
Yep. Sloth and frenzy.
- [46:46]
Thomas
Graham, you also had that right. Not pumping your own tires. That would be pretense. That's an easy win for you. I think you also said sloth, which is really close to what you said, which was complaining.
- [46:54]
AJ
I said complaining.
- [46:55]
Thomas
Yep. I'll give you another point there. Doing lots of things and then frenzy. What was your third thing?
- [47:02]
AJ
It was like self marketing. Complaining and caring about outcomes. So not friends.
- [47:09]
Thomas
Caring about outcomes was kind of a lot like. It's close to frenzy. I feel like that's worth a point. I feel like that's close enough.
- [47:15]
Graham
So sweeping it, Graham.
- [47:17]
Thomas
Graham gets all three for that one. To climb ahead by one point. He is one.
- [47:22]
Graham
Still neck and neck. Still neck and neck.
- [47:24]
Thomas
Two, three, four, five, six, seven. Let's see. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Seven for Graham and then six for Thomas.
- [47:32]
Graham
Rock and roll.
- [47:33]
Thomas
Okay, so far so good, gents. Okay. You can hold your breath until you turn blue, but blank don't.
- [47:49]
Graham
You can't change the mind of others.
- [47:52]
Thomas
Thomas gets that one. You can hold your breath until you turn blue, but they'll still Go on doing it.
- [47:57]
Graham
That's right.
- [47:57]
Thomas
Yep, that's exactly right. Easy one for Thomas.
- [48:00]
AJ
Tied it up.
- [48:04]
Thomas
Okay, number 11. He says, we have three relationships. What are those relationships? Each person has three relationships. He just goes, three relationships. Colon. I want to see. That's another three pointer. So what are the three relationships?
- [48:20]
AJ
That man has to act in accordance with nature.
- [48:24]
Graham
Just three relationships.
- [48:26]
Thomas
Mm. Your three relationships, is it?
- [48:30]
Graham
I was thinking the target of those three relationships. That's interesting. Tell me. No, I want to hear yours.
- [48:34]
AJ
I was gonna say your relationships are to act in accordance of nature, to. I don't know, not complain about people who came before you. Am I. Am I way off?
- [48:54]
Thomas
I'm giving no clues.
- [48:55]
Graham
Fair enough. Because I was guessing because my three relationships are like with myself, with other men. With the gods. Right.
- [49:03]
AJ
Those are Thomas's. My relationships are the relationship to act in accordance with nature. What did I say? Do not care about those who came before you. And to not lie to yourself. Those are my. Yeah. Okay, so relationship with self, honesty to self, duty to nature and not caring about other people.
- [49:27]
Thomas
Okay, so honesty to self due to nature and not caring with other people. About other people. Thomas very clearly gets all three points. Cool.
- [49:34]
Graham
Rock and roll.
- [49:35]
Thomas
You'll have to help me whether you get them. So he says, the three relationships. Number one, with the body you inhabit.
- [49:42]
Graham
Yeah.
- [49:42]
Thomas
So to not. Does that. Does not. Do not lie to yourself. Does that count for Graham?
- [49:46]
Graham
I think Graham should get zero points. Come on.
- [49:48]
Thomas
With the divine, the cause in all things. The everything in all things.
- [49:52]
Graham
Yeah.
- [49:52]
Thomas
And number three, with the people around you. Yeah, that's right. So your body, the divine, and people. And Thomas listed, I think, all three self, other men, and the gods. So he had all three of those. Pretty solid.
- [50:02]
Graham
As a tech bro, I was prepared for this episode.
- [50:05]
AJ
I don't care.
- [50:09]
Graham
He swept the last three pointer, so this is all good.
- [50:13]
Thomas
Okay, I like this one. You want praise from people who blank themselves every 15 minutes. The approval of people who despise themselves. Is it a sign of self respect to regret nearly everything you do? So you want praise from people who blank themselves every 15 minutes. The approval of people who disappear, despise themselves. Is it a sign of self respect to regret nearly everything you do?
- [50:37]
Graham
Contradict, say, doubt, doubt themselves, kick.
- [50:41]
Thomas
Neither of you get the point.
- [50:42]
Graham
Yeah.
- [50:43]
Thomas
People who kick themselves every 15 minutes.
- [50:46]
Graham
That's a very strange tick for someone to have. Yeah. I want to know more about these people he's talking about.
- [50:49]
Thomas
I mean, like, you know, you say something to me like, ah, yeah, crap that's funny. Said a dumb thing.
- [50:53]
Graham
Yeah.
- [50:55]
Thomas
Okay, we are coming up on the end here.
- [50:59]
Graham
Okay.
- [51:00]
Thomas
Round number 13, score check.
- [51:02]
AJ
In case. In case for listening? Just for.
- [51:03]
Graham
Yeah, yeah, yeah, people.
- [51:05]
Thomas
Ten to seven.
- [51:05]
Graham
Okay.
- [51:06]
Thomas
In favor of Thomas.
- [51:06]
Graham
Rock and roll. So let's go.
- [51:08]
Thomas
Luckily, Graham, I think you might. I think you've got. You got three points here. You can get it. And there's. There's one that has a two parter. Oh.
- [51:15]
Graham
So.
- [51:16]
AJ
Okay, I gotta run the board, though.
- [51:18]
Thomas
Number 13.
- [51:18]
Graham
Not that you care.
- [51:20]
Thomas
Okay, today I escaped from blank or no, I discarded it because it was within me in my own perception, not outside.
- [51:29]
Graham
Care say laziness.
- [51:33]
Thomas
Point, Graham.
- [51:35]
Graham
Good. That's good.
- [51:36]
Thomas
The answer is anxiety.
- [51:37]
Graham
Anxiety.
- [51:37]
Thomas
Today I escape my anxiety or no, I discarded it because it was within me in my own perception, not outside. So one day he's just like, you know what?
- [51:44]
Graham
I'm done.
- [51:45]
Thomas
Stop it. Yeah, I'm gonna stop being anxious. It's not a real thing. Okay, two left, eight to ten. Favor of Thomas.
- [51:53]
Graham
He's gonna get this, I believe.
- [51:57]
Thomas
Stop whatever you're doing for a moment and ask yourself, am I afraid of death because I won't be able to do blank anymore.
- [52:07]
Graham
Can you read the first part?
- [52:09]
Thomas
Stop whatever you're doing for a moment and ask yourself, am I afraid of death because I won't be able to do blank anymore.
- [52:16]
Graham
Is it not just this? Because it starts with, he's doing something and you stop. So I can't do this anymore.
- [52:22]
AJ
Yeah, that was also me. My answer, the present thing.
- [52:26]
Thomas
Word for word. Nice job, gentlemen. Point for each. The answer is this.
- [52:30]
Graham
Okay, cool. Wow.
- [52:32]
Thomas
So stop whatever you're doing for a moment and ask yourself, am I afraid of death because I won't be able to do this anymore.
- [52:37]
AJ
I have that. When I'm grading papers, when I'm sort of longing for death.
- [52:46]
Thomas
Am I scared of death because I won't be able to grade papers anymore? Okay, this is just.
- [52:50]
AJ
There's no way I can win now. I mean, if that was a thing that we were.
- [52:53]
Graham
I think we'll tie it.
- [52:54]
Thomas
All right. There was a. I mean, right now it's 11 to 9 in favor of Thomas. There's one more, but it has two points. So you could. You could tie it or Thomas could win. There are a few, but I'm gonna keep the suspense high because there's a few I want to read in between. This one I have. I have titled Death of a schoolteacher number 36. It doesn't matter how good a life you've led. There will still be people standing around the bed who will welcome the sad event. I'll be glad you're dead. Even with the intelligent and good. Won't there be someone thinking finally to be through with that old school teacher? Even though he never said anything, you could always feel him judging you. And I imagine this is how our students will stand around our bed. And that's for a good man. How many traits do you have that would make a lot of people glad to be rid of you? Remember that when the time comes, you'll be less reluctant to leave if you can tell yourself this is the sort of life I'm leaving. Even the people around me, the ones I spent so much time fighting for, praying over, caring about even they want me gone in hopes that it will make their own lives easier. How could anyone stand a longer stay here and yet don't leave angry with them. Be true to who you are, caring, sympathetic and kind, but not as if you are being torn away from life. But the way it is when someone dies peacefully, how the soul is released from the body, that's how you should leave them. It was nature that bound you to them, that tied the knot. And nature now unties you. I am released from those around me. Not dragged against my will, but unresisting. There are things that nature demands and this is one of them. So it's kind of a nice little thing, but I read the school teacher bit and I was like, oh, that sounds like. Sounds like my death. Okay, this one's called Someone despises Me.
- [54:35]
Graham
Can I ask you, are the pages cut in a weird way or have you folded?
- [54:39]
Thomas
I've been dog earring like a thousand.
- [54:41]
Graham
Bunch of these things.
- [54:41]
Thomas
Yeah, well, I dog eared anyone that seemed interesting. And then before the podcast I ran back through and found the ones which sort of stood out from the rest of the crowd. Yeah, okay. Someone despises me. That's their problem. Mine not to do or say anything despicable. Someone hates me. Their problem. Mine to be patient and cheerful with everyone, including them, ready to show them their mistake. Not spitefully or to show off my own self control, but in an honest, upright way, like Phocion, if he wasn't just pretending. That's what we should be like inside and never let the gods catch us feeling anger or resentment. As long as you do what's proper to your nature and accept that the world's na. Accept what the world's nature has in store. As long as you work for others as good, by any and all means. What is there that can harm you? It's kind of nice. Okay, this one I really like.
- [55:33]
Graham
The.
- [55:33]
Thomas
Despicable phoniness of people who say, listen, I'm gonna level with you here. What does that mean? It shouldn't even be. Need to be said. It should be obvious. Written block letters on your forehead. It should be audible in your voice, visible in your eyes, like a lover who looks in your face and takes in the whole story at a glance. A straightforward, honest person should be like someone who stinks when you're in the same room with them. You know it. But false straightforwardness is like a knife in the back. False friendship is the. Oh, and then I can't know if this is. Yeah, false friendship is the worst. Avoid it at all costs. If you're honest and straightforward and mean, well, it'll show in your eyes. It should be unmistakable. So the whole. I just really liked the. Listen, I'm gonna level with you here. What does that mean? I love that bit. Okay. And then I had one more. Okay, here's an entry I don't fully understand.
- [56:30]
Graham
Is this the Quiz Show 1, or is this not.
- [56:32]
Thomas
Not Quiz Show 1. One more before quiz show.
- [56:34]
Graham
Okay.
- [56:35]
Thomas
The town mouse and the country mouse. Distress and agitation of the town mouse.
- [56:43]
Graham
It's the Aesop fable, right?
- [56:44]
Thomas
I think it's.
- [56:45]
AJ
Is it?
- [56:46]
Graham
Yeah, the one about. There's the. There's the mouse that lives in the big city and the mouse that lives in the country. The town mouse goes out to the country and, you know, the pleasures are simple, but it's still an enjoyable time. There's no stress or anxiety thing. You know, it's a pleasant trip, but it's not fancy. Country mouse goes to the town, and it's like they eat really well, but they could die at any minute because if they get caught, they're gonna get killed by the. By the house that they're in. And so I think the lesson is supposed to. It's like, you know, there are different types of wealth, and it's better to be the country mouse than the town mouse.
- [57:19]
Thomas
Yeah. And the town mouse has distress and agitation, so.
- [57:21]
Graham
Like which the country mouse does not.
- [57:23]
Thomas
Oh, I didn't know that at all.
- [57:24]
Graham
It's one of the Aesop fables.
- [57:25]
Thomas
Oh, that's great. Okay. That makes sense. Glad I brought it up.
- [57:28]
Graham
Yeah.
- [57:29]
Thomas
Okay, last quiz show one with a possible tiebreaker if. If Graham gets both of these wins.
- [57:34]
Graham
I think we would tie it at that point.
- [57:36]
Thomas
Right? You would, which is why I would bring a tiebreaker.
- [57:37]
Graham
Oh, okay.
- [57:38]
Thomas
Stupidity is Expecting blank in winter or blank in old age. Those are two different words. Stupidity is expecting blank in winter or blank in old age.
- [57:49]
AJ
Fruit in winter and, like, love making in old age.
- [57:57]
Graham
Yeah, I was gonna say crops in winter and I don't even. Vigor in old age.
- [58:02]
AJ
I was gonna be a little more. A little more graphic with mine, but.
- [58:06]
Thomas
I think both go to grail.
- [58:09]
Graham
That's great.
- [58:09]
AJ
That's great.
- [58:10]
Thomas
Stupidity is expecting figs in winter, which sounds a lot like fruit or children in English, which sounds like the right thing.
- [58:18]
Graham
We're tied.
- [58:19]
Thomas
You guys are tied up. How am I gonna break this?
- [58:22]
Graham
That's so good.
- [58:22]
Thomas
What in the world?
- [58:23]
Graham
Pick a random page and let's figure it out.
- [58:27]
AJ
I love it.
- [58:28]
Thomas
Okay, man. All right. Maybe this one. If you can actually get who this quote is from. Because he's quoting someone else. He writes down.
- [58:36]
Graham
Graham's gonna get this. Yeah.
- [58:38]
Thomas
No thefts of free will reported by blank. He has recorded that as like, a little quote he needs to remember. And then he's put the author right next to it. So number 36 or 30, like book 1136. No thefts of free will reported. Basically, no one can steal your free will.
- [58:56]
Graham
I have.
- [58:59]
AJ
Baseless on it.
- [59:00]
Graham
I was just trying to think of what playwright it would have been. Who's the guy I did. Last time we did Discalos. Is that Menander? Who is it?
- [59:11]
Thomas
The answer is Epictetus.
- [59:12]
Graham
There you go.
- [59:14]
AJ
I always think Epictetus is after Marcus really is.
- [59:17]
Thomas
Okay, let's see if I can find another one that we can throw in here. There's a. There's a lot that's repetitive here.
- [59:34]
AJ
We could just tie. That's a stoic thing to have happen.
- [59:37]
Graham
Fine with that. We're all winners, you know?
- [59:39]
AJ
No, we're all losers.
- [59:40]
Graham
Oh, okay. We're all losers for having cared about the game.
- [59:45]
AJ
No, I mean, I'm trying to, like, put to words my, like, allergic reaction to it.
- [59:51]
Thomas
Okay. Yeah. We can call that quiz show done. All right.
- [59:54]
AJ
We tied it up. Yeah, that's good. We can carry the quiz show into other elements, areas of our life.
- [59:59]
Graham
Sure.
- [60:00]
AJ
We're gonna compete another inequality quiz show within or something.
- [60:04]
Graham
Okay, cool.
- [60:05]
Thomas
Okay. I will say that the very first section, book one, where he thanks everyone that's given him things. If. If you're looking to, like, bring up a kid on how to act. Well, it's a pretty good codification of, hey, this is just good behavior. So I'll read just the first few. So. From my grandfather, Varys character and self control from My father integrity and manliness for my mother, her reverence for the divine, her generosity, her inability not only to do wrong, but even to conceive of doing it. And the simple way she lived. Not in the least like the rich. My great granddad. To avoid the public schools, to hire good private teachers, and to accept the resulting costs as money well spent. To my first teacher. Not to support this side or that in chariot racing, this fighter or that in the games. To put up with discomfort and not make demands. To do my own work, mind my own business, and have no time for slanderers from Diognetus. Diognetus. Not to waste time on nonsense. Not to be taken in by conjurers and hoodoo artists and their talk about incantations and exorcism and all the rest of it. Not to be obsessed with quail fighting or other crazes like that. To hear unwelcome truths.
- [61:09]
AJ
Quail fighting a bat.
- [61:10]
Thomas
Sounds awesome.
- [61:12]
AJ
I could see us getting obsessed with quail fighting.
- [61:15]
Thomas
Oh, can you imagine having like your quail to practice philosophy and to study with Bacchius and then with Tandius and Marcianus to write dialogues as a student. To choose the Greek lifestyle, the camp bed and the cloak from Rusticus. The recognition that I needed to train my character and discipline. Not to be sidetracked by my interest in rhetoric. Not to write treatises on abstract questions, to deliver moralizing little sermons or compose imaginary descriptions of the simple life or the man who lives only for others, to steer clear of oratory, poetry and Bell's letters. So it's just like kind of how. What made him himself, which I appreciate. It's a good little sort of here's. Here's the makeup of a good man and here's how I was put together. It's interesting. Yeah. So is it a good read? I think so. Yeah.
- [62:05]
Graham
For sure it is.
- [62:06]
AJ
Yes. Despite my, like, tongue in cheek nature, the. Marcus Aurelius's book is very good. The. And all of those, like, the virtues of Stoicism are good. Like not letting other people control you in terms of your emotions. Yeah, that. That phrase of like, you can hold your. Your breath until you're blue in the face, but they will.
- [62:26]
Thomas
People will still keep on doing it.
- [62:27]
AJ
They'll keep on doing it. Caring about duty and responsibility and the steadiness of mind and whatever he called his grand. The.
- [62:35]
Graham
The.
- [62:35]
AJ
The virtues he talked about, his. What his grandfather were. I can't remember what you said, but as you read it, I was like, yes, these are good Things the, maybe the quibble. The thing that I, I often wonder about Stoics is by can you get to the place where you have so disregarded how other people can affect you that it actually limits your ability to like really enter into the human congress. The real radical like or the, the, the, the real love that is required in like in family life. So for example, like you know this, this is coming from the Roman Empire, this is coming from a, a Roman family structure that does not. That looks quite different than what we modern people look at as families. Like the relationship between husband and wife and even fathers and children are not the kinds of relationships that we would recognize as sort of like the modern Western nuclear family. So I often wonder if the Stoics are. If one of their sort of blind spots is like almost treating everybody like enjoy the good when you, if you can get it but in reality like you're kind of on your own kid and deal with and sort of accept that and deal with it. And I think there's a lot of really goodness, a lot of good to that. But I often get the sense that the true Stoic is often like has a hard time or doesn't believe that like authentic Aristotelian friendship can exist or that like the real joining of two people in self sacrificing love can ever exist or even should be something that you work towards because you're only just going to be disappointed in the end.
- [64:24]
Thomas
Like I'm with you, I have to stop. We're over time. But there is even a spot where he remembers somebody else saying that when you kiss your son goodnight you should say he may die tomorrow. Exactly right. Which is probably not a healthy way to say goodnight to your kid. What if he hears that? That's not great. You're reminding yourself to not get too attached. That seems busted. So how should you read this? I think it's great stuff to contemplate and you shouldn't just read it straight through. Like I did read three a day and sort of contemplate those things, see where they fit in your life. It's a great little sort of morning tradition because a lot of it is just urging you towards good works. Kindness, openness, not getting angry, taking things as they come. A lot of it is really, really good. And I do think I'm with Graham in that I think there are pitfalls to sto, but a lot of it's pretty solid. And so if you read like, if you want to read this as sort of a daily reminder to be good and not get frustrated with people and to take things as they come. I think that's great. Anyway, I liked it. It was a fun read. There's a few of those I would probably commit to memory. The smelly one is probably my favorite. But yeah, there you go. That's Marcus Aurelius.
- [65:29]
AJ
Awesome. Well, this has been classical stuff you should know with Graham Thomas and AJ and we are not going to let anything you email us disrupt our Zen. No, not our Zen. Our chill. Our stoic surrender. Our surrender. No, our serenity now.
- [65:48]
Thomas
Our duty to serenity now.
- [65:49]
AJ
To logos and nature. But you can email us at the guys@classical stuff.net you can patronize us on Patreon, wherein we have monthly AMAs and a chat that we chat in.
- [66:02]
Thomas
Yeah, we chat back and forth.
- [66:03]
AJ
It's kind of fun. And after this summer, AJ and I will have posted a bunch of stuff from a trip that we're taking together to England.
- [66:11]
Thomas
Yep. And gonna record daily episodes.
- [66:13]
AJ
And you know, we sort of have big plans for. For the more content in the Patreon. And you can find us on Twitter where I will sometimes like things you tweet.
- [66:24]
Thomas
Real active.
- [66:25]
AJ
Clearly sometimes. And. And besides that. But thank you for listening and we will. Will catch you next week.
- [66:30]
Thomas
Yep.
- [66:31]
Graham
Bye.
- [66:31]
Thomas
Cheers and bye.