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Classical Stuff You Should Know
280: Raskolnikov and Narcissism
01:01:43
I don't care if you like this episode . . . but I really do.
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- [00:10]
AJ Hanenberg
Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know. My name is AJ Hanenberg, and I am joined with Graham Donaldson.
- [00:14]
Graham Donaldson
Hello. Hello.
- [00:15]
AJ Hanenberg
And Thomas Magbee.
- [00:16]
Graham Donaldson
Hi.
- [00:16]
AJ Hanenberg
And this is a podcast about what I think and what I like and only what I think. And the most important thing to remember about this podcast is that the opinions of Graham and Thomas don't matter at all. At least I don't listen to them. And I do what I like and I do what I want, and that's like, my whole scene. So here's to an hour with me. Yeah, that's great right here.
- [00:35]
Graham Donaldson
But deep down, you do care about what we think about you, but you hate yourself for caring what we think about you.
- [00:40]
AJ Hanenberg
Oh, yeah, yeah. But right now, the things you're saying, I don't care about those. I don't care about those at all.
- [00:47]
Graham Donaldson
What AJ is making reference to is when he asked me what we were doing for the episode, I said, we're talking about crime and punishment and narcissism. And so there we go.
- [00:55]
AJ Hanenberg
That's what I'm being, a narcissist.
- [00:56]
Graham Donaldson
You're cluing in on y kind of what I. So every year at Veritas, at the school where we teach at, we read Crime Punishment. I have not been in the English class for many years, so it's been a long time since I've taught it. And so I came back to this book this year for the first time in like, four or three or four years, not having taught it. And I. It was a different class, a different context, teaching a different place. But the was something about the. Just the main character of Ras Kolnikov and his relationship with these two characters towards the end and both of them talking about suffering that I kind of wanted to talk about on today's episode. So we've done episodes on Crime Punishment going back in the. In the. In before.
- [01:43]
AJ Hanenberg
In the before times.
- [01:43]
Graham Donaldson
In the before times. Probably a couple episodes, right? Yes. But I think now I'm not a. I'm not a big into psychology. I'm not a psychologist. I probably carry a pretty healthy skepticism of the. Of the practice. And so I never like approaching books with that sort of psychological lens to it. I definitely don't like approaching. Thinking about authors or talking about their decisions or their books, trying to psychoanalyze them. I don't think it's very fair. I don't like doing. I don't like reading the biographies of authors and then trying to import my understanding of their life into, like, the book they're reading, because When I think about like how long a human life is and how much you forget about your own life and just. And then if someone was trying to do that to you on a book that you were writing, it's just like I feel like we can't really make those, those claims, although I think it's easier on some than others. And I think Dostoyevsky is probably one because his books are so like, there's so much about the human psyche and human pathologies of like people going crazy that it kind of lends itself to needing to talk about psychological condition. And he's also writing about it in sort of like the burgeoning heyday of the science. Well, I don't think Dostoyevsky, I think even Freud is after Dostoevsky or at least the majority of it. So Dostoevsky would not have been familiar with this and he probably wouldn't have even known the name narcissist. But the character of Raskolnikov in the book is kind of like the definition of it if you were like to look it in a dictionary. Anyway, let me paint you a story of this character. So a boy grows up in a small town. He comes from a religious family. When he's a. And he's a. He is a sensitive kid. Things move him. He has an open heart and he's sensitive to the sufferings of others. He's sensitive to the happiness of others. He. He has a sensitive soul. He loses his father at an early age and his father is no longer in his life. His mother is a simple minded, good hearted woman, but she is not, she's not necessarily intellectually sophisticated. He has a very strong willed and sort of like heart of like not cold hearted in the negative sense but a very like stern yet virtuous sister. He goes off to college, leaving his small town and going to the big city. He goes in and he starts to study humanities and he gets a small taste of success. He writes things and people begin to praise him. But he's not going to be some great luminary intellectual. But he gets a small taste of success. But something about his life and being in the city chips away at him. He begins, he loses kind of his mojo at college and begins to withdraw. He starts to have ideas that he, that he is better than other people and that in this world, the world is divided into two kinds of people. You have the strong and you have the weak. And all the people who are strong are the ones that have been able to not care what other people think about them. Go and get what they want in this life, take it by force if they have to endure all of the scorn of like, the normies and endure all of the. Like the. The ridicule that maybe comes from the masses. But as time goes on and is that as people, as those. As the powerful people's lives continue, eventually the masses come around and start to praise them, if not even reward them for their daring and for their ability to take what they want, even if it meant that they were criminals. This young man from this small town goes into this college and he is hit with this theory and this idea and it captures his heart completely. He drops out of school. He begins to sit in his. In his. He is dirt poor, has nothing, can barely scrape money together to. To. To continue college. His mom and sister do not know that he's dropped out, but they're starting to hear rumors that their son and brother, their only hope is having some trouble in the big town. Mom takes. Spends all of her dead husband's pension money and sends it, in fact, even gets loans and advancements on this pension money, sends it to her son in hopes that a little bit of money will cushion the blow of the difficult college and get him back on his feet so he can start making some money, start translating some books. But when the son gets the money, he resents it and hates it and hates the handout from his mother and. And ends up wasting it on frivolous and stupid things or even giving the money away. All in all, continuing to be obsessed with this idea that the world is divided into the strong and into the weak. And the weak are the masters of the present who. All they do is they sort of like moralize and try to keep the sort of status quo going. Whereas the strong are masters of the future and they have the real vision as to how humanity can move forward. And they just have the like cojones to go and take it. And this kid is obsessed and one is wondering and. And is. Believes that he himself is one of these great people. This is the character of Raskolnikov and Crown Punishment as we see him at the beginning of the book. We have this and. And we have. He goes off. And so we're not really talking about the whole sort of thrust of the story, although for listeners, he goes and he tries to see if he is one of these great men. And the. And the sort of. The location or the way that he's trying to do this is he wants to go and murder an old woman, a pawnbroker, Somebody who is like objectively not a good person.
- [07:30]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah, she's the worst.
- [07:31]
Graham Donaldson
She is leeching off of society. She's mean to her. She has a sister who is mentally handicapped and she's cruel to her. She's rich as a troll and basically is leeching off the poor people in St. Petersburg. And he reasons that I should kill her, take her money. And then, well, he's kind of has a bunch of ideas as to what, what the end then is. Although he doesn't really have a set plan because it's the do I have what it takes to kill her and take this money to go off and start my, my life? But it's not even the money doesn't even matter. It's like, do I have the ability to kill somebody and not care about it because she's objectively bad and I can go off and sort of like continue to be this great man. And so he does and he feels, and he's horrified of the effect that it has on him. He kind of botches the murder and ends up killing her and the mentally retarded sister. And he falls into this illness and he falls into this fever and this paranoia that the cops are after him. Okay, so this is, this is the character of Raskolnikov. And, and he is kind of this, well, the name Raskolnikov. So, so Dostoevsky chooses, calls him Raskolnikov because apparently I don't know Russian. But a rascal is a, is like the, the Russian word with it with, for schism or split. So it would be as if you named some character like, like splitsky. Yeah, or schizoid. Right. Like, you know, or somebody like split personality. Like. Yeah, splitsky. Splitsky. Anyway, so you have this character who means into split into two. And the two characters are this. One of them is he is this. He is proud and arrogant and thinks he's better than everybody and hates the world and hates people because he is clearly better than them and just wants to, you know, sort of stomp and scorn and hates the normal, the normies. And then the other side of this is that still that tender hearted kid, he feels things. He looks at the world around him and sees a man suffering in pain. He wants to alleviate it. He gives his money to people in suffering. And then so, you know, there's scenes where Raskolnikov is like giving money to people in the midst of their suffering and then a minute later is like hates himself for doing it and can't believe that he did it. In short, Raskolnikov is almost like the sort of the textbook vision of the narcissist. And the narcissist is this person who is in this sort of pit of despair because on the one hand they think that they are better than everybody else, but on the other. But the other hand they know that they are so dependent on the acceptance of everybody else to soothe them psychologically that they want everybody to like them. But they hate the fact that they need people to like them, that they themselves consider to be beneath them. And you get into this like, terrible bout of self loathing. This is Raskolnikov as he is in this terrible place of self loathing where he wants everybody to love him and recognize his greatness. But then he also realizes that I, I'm not a great person because I need people to tell me that I'm a great person. Real great people, like, don't give a flying as to what anybody thinks about them. And he has these characters of like Napoleon. Napoleon didn't need anybody to tell him he was great. He just kind of like did his thing. And so we have this sort of like, we've got this. Yeah. This sort of narcissistic character who Dostoevsky. He. There's a lot. So if you read a lot of Dostoevsky, Dostoevsky sort of has this idea of like the underground man. He has notes from the underground. Ras Kolnikov is this kind of person. Dostoevsky himself as a young man was very much this way. And. And Dostoevsky kind of has this. It bleeds in through a couple of his books that Dostoevsky kind of has this fear that this narcissistic. Narcissistic characteristic is the direction or maybe even is the result of where the modern world is heading toward. Specifically in. Man doesn't really write about. About female pathologies very much. He very much knows like this, this sort of narcissistic man. And he is. And you and Dostoevsky. There's a passage, we'll read it later at the end of Crime and Punishment where Dostoevsky has this fear that we are going to have eventually a narcissistic society, a society where everybody thinks that they individually are the sole source of rightness and wrongness and everybody else just doesn't get it. And that sole individual person would be totally morally justified to do away with everybody else because of just like how wrong they are, which is, you know, horrifying anyway, so. So actually Dostoevsky himself was kind of like this and where I want to go with this is I want to go to the places where there's a. So Ras Kolnikov in one of his. There's a. There's a scene where. Where he is with this woman and Raskolnikov thinks he. That in the relationship with the woman, he's going to find his salvation out of this. And this is also mirrored in another character named S. And S. Galov also thinks that if he can just be loved by a woman, that he is himself going to get out of his narcissism. And so that's what I want to talk about. So, A.J. you remember this book? You used to teach this book.
- [13:38]
AJ Hanenberg
I do indeed.
- [13:39]
Graham Donaldson
So tell me. So tell me a little bit about Svidrigalov. Do you remember the character of Sidrigalov?
- [13:47]
AJ Hanenberg
Svidrigalov married this wealthy woman. It was kind of. He seems to have to say that was kind of clearly for the cash. He was like a young man about town. He had gambling debts. He was cute though. She wanted somebody and he was there. And so they kind of had.
- [14:07]
Graham Donaldson
He's the bad boy.
- [14:08]
AJ Hanenberg
He's the bad boy. So they kind of got together. Eventually she dies and it comes out that he had kind of facilitated it. If I remember correctly, the soft version.
- [14:22]
Graham Donaldson
Of the story is that he kind of smacked her around and then she went into the sauna and. And died.
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AJ Hanenberg
Right.
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Graham Donaldson
The rumor is that he's poisoned her.
- [14:29]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah. So he's in town and he is like maybe gonna get married to this 13 year old girl. Yeah, he believes that, like when you die, you basically go to a room full of. A dark room full of spiders and that's sort of the end of it. And so seems like it doesn't really matter what you do. You're always gonna end up with the spiders.
- [14:51]
Graham Donaldson
And he's haunted by ghosts. Ghosts. The ghosts of the people that he's murdered are following him around.
- [14:55]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah.
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Graham Donaldson
Or he's convinced they are.
- [14:57]
AJ Hanenberg
He's convinced. They don't seem to really do much to him or say much to him. They just sort of pop up every now and again and he's like, oh, there they are. And that's. That's the thing. And he offers. Doesn't he offer Raskolna. He kind of keeps Raskolnikov secret, if I remember.
- [15:10]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah.
- [15:11]
AJ Hanenberg
He hears that it was happening and he's like, don't worry, I got you, bro. Yeah.
- [15:14]
Graham Donaldson
Raskolnikov learns about the murder.
- [15:16]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:17]
Graham Donaldson
So Sidra Gailov is. Yes. Is this Terrible character. And he also had fell in love with Raskolnikov's sister. Raskolnikov's sister worked for him and Svitrgal had this habit of like sleeping with the servants and then when he did that he kind of got sick of them and then was able to kind of like psychologically manipulate them in such a way to kill themselves. So the servant would be, you know, some servant be like, oh, I thought we were going to write away together and you love me. And he'd be like, man, no, not really. And then he would be. And he could eventually sort of like be so cruel and mean to them that they would take their own life and they are already. He was sort of like targeting desperate people already. The dude is bad. He is a para, terrible person. And as the book goes on he's realizing that he is more and more and more bored as he continues to go further and further and further into depravity. And so yeah, the marrying of the 13 year old girl that AJ talked about, he has this whole plan. He's like found this family that is in hard times and he's coming in, he's pretending to be this upstanding gentleman. He's going to marry this young girl of a marrying age. He's basically going to have his way with her and then sell her to a brothel. And he thinks this is very hilarious and this is. But he's sort of, he's kicking this idea around. He doesn't know if he's going to do it or not. But anyway, he had, had, was in love with Raskolnikov's virtuous and beautiful and kind of and willful and will and you know, like a hard willed sister. Dunya's great, Dunya's wonderful and, and Dunya sort of realizes Fitigala for who he is and she immediately rejects him. She kind of takes some flack forward in society. She doesn't care. She shoulders this like people are spreading rumors about her. She doesn't care. She's like, you know, she actually is kind of the person that Raskolnikov wishes he is. He, she's like, doesn't care what people think about her because she did the right thing and she's like firm in that. And Svitr Galoff has now his dead, his wife is dead and he's in town and he's trying to see Dunia, he wants to talk to her. And so he finds out about Raskolnikov's murder. Murder. Raskolnikov's crime, and he's kind of holding that against Raskolnikov to basically leverage a meeting with Dunya because he wants to talk to Dunya. All right, bracket that story for a second. As the book goes on, Raskolnikov is absolutely tortured by the fact that he murdered this person. But he's less, like, feels guilty about the murder and more he is just realizing that his twisted philosophy about that there are two kinds of people in this world, the normies and the great men, is kind of, like, not real. Or if it is real, he's a normie, and he can't, and he hates that idea.
- [17:57]
AJ Hanenberg
I think that's more the issue is that he still believes it. He wants. I don't think he stops until jail. Yeah, yeah, he still believes it, but he's like, I'm falling to pieces about this thing. Napoleon wouldn't.
- [18:09]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah.
- [18:09]
AJ Hanenberg
And so I. I don't rank. Like, I'm not that good. I'm not Napoleon.
- [18:13]
Graham Donaldson
And so this is the thing that he can't just get over, is that he's now kind of gone into the world. He's kind of gone into the world of adults. He's left home. He's on his own, and he's being struck, and he's realizing that he's just a normal person and he has, like, a ceiling on his skill sets, and he's not the main character, and he's just a guy, and he hates that idea. And I don't know if you guys ever had that growing up. I'm sure everybody at some point kind of has to wrestle with that realization, you know, that, you know, every person is in their own. That you are the. You're not the main character. But every person has this, like, oh, this is my life. This is my story. This is what I'm doing. But at some point, you have to sort of, like, realize I have limits and limitations and not. And, like, not everybody thinks about me ever, and it's not all about me, and this isn't all about my life. And you kind of need to come to terms with the fact that, like, you're a regular person. And I don't know if. If you ever have. If you have, like, examples of your own life where you realize this. But I definitely. For me, it was like, college. I real. You know, I realized, like, oh, I'm just. I'm just like an average person. Like, I'm not some great mind. Or even if I like, went off and did sort of did important or interesting Things that's like, you're not. You're not Napoleon. You know what I mean? Like, it's just. You're just like a regular. You're just like, regular person. And I think every person needs to sort of come to terms with this at some point in their life, or if they don't. The Dostoevsky is writing about how that kind of thing can turn into a really dark place that people go to. If you're really going to hold on to this belief that you are better and greater than everybody else, and you are. You are eventually going to just completely have to lie to yourself in the face of reality, which is you are a normal person, or you are just going to have to disassociate yourself from reality so you can continue to believe that you're better than everybody. And if you do that, you are going to suffer. That is going to be a place of suffering for you, is that you are going to divorce yourself from reality. The reality is you are a man, a normal person, and if you want to hold yourself up as you are some sort of, like, strident God on this world, you are going to suffer, and it is going to be a suffering of your own ignorance about yourself. And so Raskolnikov is suffering with this, and he is. And this is the kind of suffering that is eating him up, is like, AJ Pointed out he's realizing he's not Napoleon. He realizes that he's not great. Okay.
- [21:05]
AJ Hanenberg
Flashes where he thinks he is.
- [21:06]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah.
- [21:06]
AJ Hanenberg
That's why he keeps on toying with the police.
- [21:08]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah.
- [21:09]
AJ Hanenberg
Because he thinks he'd get one over on him. And then the detective just stomps him, sees through it, and, like, is just toying with him. And then Raskolnikov can't handle that because he's clearly losing this intellectual battle.
- [21:19]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah. Every now and then, Raskolnikov will do that thing that, like, criminals do, which is they just. They. They want to get away with the crime because they're smarter than everybody else. Oh. But they want everybody to know they got away with the crime so that they recognize they're smarter than everybody else.
- [21:35]
AJ Hanenberg
Just be smarter.
- [21:36]
Graham Donaldson
You can't just be smart to get away with it. You got to send the note to the cops to say, like, come and catch me, jerks. You gotta. So Raskolnikov sits a police detective down in a bar and says, hey, man, do you know what I would do if I did the murder? And he basically tells the thing that he wished he had done, but he actually didn't do because he was too. He was too crappy of a murderer to do it. But he goes back and tells a story, the like sort of sanitized, better version of what the murder would have been like. And the police chief's like, what? Or the police officer's like, could it be you? And Raskonkov's like, ah, I just got you, sucker. Of course you believed it. Oh, what a loser. And the police officer's like, no, of course I didn't believe it. You're just a student at school. I didn't think you were murder. And Raskolnikov's like, yeah, whatever.
- [22:19]
AJ Hanenberg
But then he doesn't need to immediately go back and tell his boss.
- [22:21]
Graham Donaldson
He's like, you wouldn't believe what this guy just told me. And his boss is like, that guy did it.
- [22:26]
AJ Hanenberg
And then spend like almost instantly.
- [22:28]
Graham Donaldson
The thing is, Ras Kolagov gets caught four days after the murder. The book takes place in four days, but he spends his four days being wildly tortured by his own conscience and then also trying to flaunt him getting away with it, but is not getting away.
- [22:40]
AJ Hanenberg
My favorite thing is that he says the reason murderers get caught is because they go into this, like, weird guilt fever when they're going to do it. And that, like, addles their thinking. And then they don't nail it. He does exactly that. It is exactly what happens. And he never puts it together that that's what happened to him. Like, he's like, this is why they always get caught. And then he does the exact same thing and just goes into like a worse version of it.
- [23:04]
Graham Donaldson
But the reason he doesn't put it together is because the reality of it tells him the thing that he is. The thing about him that is true is not the thing that he wants to be true about himself.
- [23:13]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah.
- [23:14]
Graham Donaldson
And this is the suffering that he's having. The suffering of this, of the narcissist. There's. It pops up in other things. There's like times where Raskolnikov, he's going to. So there's. Okay, let's talk about Sonia. So there's this character of Sonia, and she is born into this really unfortunate family. Her father is an absolute drunk, sells all the family possessions to drink, loses his job because of drink, when he was successful, ended up marrying a slightly aristocratic woman, but has absolutely ruined her. And this is so Sonia's stepmother, Katerina, has ruined her life. This woman, Katarina, who grew up going to like, dance in front of, like, of the nobility. And she was like, in the fancy balls think like the fancy families in Tolstoy. This was her and she is now like basically living in a stairwell because her husband has ruined her and drunken the family to poverty.
- [24:05]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah, they don't have a full apartment like a curtained off area, right?
- [24:08]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah, it's like, it's basically the land. Like it's like the foyer of the, of the apartment building that's curtained off is where they live.
- [24:15]
AJ Hanenberg
Ye.
- [24:17]
Graham Donaldson
In order to bring some kind of money to the family, the mother in law basically like browbeats her stepdaughter Sonia to go be a prostitute. And Sonia does poor like 16 year old, meek, mild. And here is the driven, here is a driven snow. Manically religious. Sonia goes off and does these, and does these terrible things and brings every dime back to the family. Raskolnikov sees her and absolutely pities her. And when he's on his one side of his characteristic, he gives some of the money away. Not the money that he used to murder, that he stole from the murder, but the money that his mom had like, had like basically sold her pension as a bond and, and, and gave the money to her son. Her son gives it away to the prostitute which there's a whole subplot about, about, about that where Raskolnikov's name gets dragged to the mud about giving money to prostitutes. Anyway, but Sonia is sort of, Sonia is enduring an intense amount of suffering in her life and seems to, and is like clearly not, you know, not happy. She's straight up not having a good time. But, but she is not rest. Kolikov is like, how can she endure it? What is it about her that is causing her to endure suffering? Because he's like, the way I see it, this girl's only got three outs. She throws herself into the water and like she ends it all. She goes crazy. Like madness consumes her, which is what Raskoln gov is worrying is happening to him. Or she like fully enters into depravity and walls off her heart and becomes a terrible person. She just becomes a demon of, of iniquity. And he's like, none of those things are happening to her. How can she endure this? And so Raskolnikov goes to her house and he wants to, he basically wants to ask her this question. How are you able to endure this? And Sonia says essentially, in short, throughout the conversation Raskolnov realizes the way Sonia can endure this is that Sonia believes that God is going to rescue her. And he's like oh my goodness. So, so Then she's crazy. That's the answer. She's a crazy person. She thinks God is going to rescue her. And he's like, so she's like this religious nut who thinks there's. And there's a miracle gonna happen. Raskolnikov takes great pleasure in pointing out that this miracle is never going to happen. And in fact, her little. Her little step siblings who are going to grow up are going to have to be prostitutes themselves. And this is a cruel and terrible world. Sonia and Raskolnikov even sort of pauses and says, listen, if you could kill. There's some person who tried to ruin her life. He tried to ruin Sonia's life to win, basically, like a petty. He was this rich guy who was trying to, like, win this petty argument. And to do it, he was actually willing to absolutely destroy Sonia's life and, like, think nothing of it. The way that anybody would think of stepping on an ant, be like, whoops, oh, whatever. Like, that was what this guy was willing to do in order to save his reputation, was destroy Sonia. And Raskolnikov's like, listen, people like that are coming for you, Sonia, if you could, would you kill that person so that he didn't destroy your life? Essentially, do you have the cajones to like, go and kill somebody in order if it's you or them? Like, the world is not your friend. Do you have the ability to go and kill so that you aren't killed? This sort of like almost like a mobster mentality, right? Like, you gotta do what's right for your. Like, do what's for your family. Like, it's like, I don't care if it's right or wrong. I'm protecting my family. It's like the fast, the Fast and the Furious morality. And Sonia's like, how can you talk about that, God? You know, it's up to God who lives and who dies. And God will bring justice and rest conquest. Like, oh, my goodness, you're such a loser. Can't believe that, like, that's your answer, really, that God is going to give you a miracle. And he takes great delight in mocking her for this. But he's completely struck by the fact that Sonia's suffering, but she's enduring it and he's suffering and he's losing it. So we have this, like, two kinds of suffering. At one moment, Raskolnikov asks Sonia to read him the story of Lazarus from the Bible. And she does. And as she reads the story about. So the story of Lazarus, Lazarus Dies, is in the tomb for is dead for three days. Christ comes and weeps at the tomb of Lazarus and the women come to the two. Two women come to Jesus and say, essentially like, we know that he will be raised on the last day. And Christ says, I am the way, the truth and the life, and I. And he raises Lazarus from the dead right then and there. So Christ comes and raises this dead man from the, from the grave because of the appeals and the love of the women in Lazarus's life, Mary and Martha. And so you get. So it's pretty obvious as you read in this chapter, that that Dunya the sister and Sonia the prostitute are these two women that love, albeit don't really understand Raskolnikov, but still love him. And so you get, you get this idea, this sort of, this motif begins to develop in the story that is Christ going to raise Raskolnikov from the dead. And in fact, Raskolnikov's little evil viewpoint that he has that he is better than everybody else and therefore can do what he wants even to the point of murder is death. He is spiritually. This is narcissism, is a type of spiritual death. It is, you are God and everybody else needs to conform to you. And Ras Kolnikov is starting to feel it. The presence of Sidra Gailov is also troubling to Raskolnikov because here is somebody who gets away with everything. He ran up a, like, I think it was like 70, 000 ruble gambling debt, which is, I think like 300 rubles is a year salary. So the dude has run up an insane gambling debt and gets paid and gets paid it off by this like rich older woman because she kind of wants to have like a bad boy play thing that she can have in her estate. And he sort of acquiesces to this for a couple of years until he gets bored of her and murders her and gets away with it. He has gotten away with murder, he's gotten away with gambling debts. He's coming into town with a ton of cash and he's going on these like giant drinking like debauchery benders. And he comes to Ras Kolnikov and so Raskolov hates him, cannot stand this person. But he is also the great man. Like he is the person that Ras Kov is kind of wanting to be. Why does he hate him? Like, isn't that everything he wants? Because he's also, when he's confronted with the actual person, it's a detestable person. He's arrogant, he makes droll jokes, but he also tells duress. Kolinkov, he's like, I'm bored. I'm bored. I've been in the most beautiful places on earth, and I'm bored. I've had all the money and I'm bored. I. And he's like, but I really. He's like, I may marry this person, I may not, but I really need to talk to your sister. And Ralph Kolinkov's like, no, not happening. And Svitr Gailov is clearly someone who is sort of himself in despair. And both him and Ras Kolinkov come to these sort of. These. These. They come to the sort of same conclusion about their salvation. So let's talk about Svit first. S off, wants to talk to Dunia because Sidra Gailov, basically, he wants Dunya to admit that she loves him or could love him. And so he says to Dunia. He actually tells Dunya, hey, I know your brother is a murderer. Everyone's kind of like, what's. Why is Raskolnika being so weird? Sudar Galv is like, your brother murdered somebody. And Dunia's like, doesn't believe it, but knows deep in her heart that that's probably what happened. And she goes to Spider Galoff's house, and he locks the door, and he's like, listen, you don't want to see me. You hate me, but I will give you money, a passport for me, you and your brother. I can make this all go away, but all you have to do is submit to me. All you have to do is let me and not even submit to me. And, like, I'm going to lord over you. It was more like, I need you to lord over me. He's like, I want to kiss your feet. I want. Basically, I want to worship you as this. I want you to turn your gaze to me and tell me that I am lovable, that you could love me. And Dunya says, no, I never could. And she. She actually takes out a gun and tries to shoot him, and she misses. And then she reloads the gun. He's like, I'll wait. And she reloads the gun, and she's holding it to his head. And then she's like, I can't do it. She throws it down. She's like, I'm not gonna do this thing. And he's like, could you ever love me ever? And she says, no, I. No, I never will. And he's like, okay, get out of here. And she leaves and then spitter Gail off goes for a walk. He's haunted by the ghosts of the people he's killed. He has sort of these horrific visions which themselves are very interesting, which I could probably take up whole episodes. A vision of St. Petersburg flooding, a vision. He saves a five year old girl and then it turns out that she was actually a prostitute. That starts coming on to him and he's horrified by it and he kind of realizes that he, he has, he has crossed over into this depths of despair and the virtuous person in this world, the Dunyas of this world who are clear eyed and virtuous and do the right thing no matter the cost, cannot love him. And so he, Sudogelov goes and kills himself. That's the end of surgery. Raskolnikov when he goes to Sonia and he asks Sonia how she can sort of like endure the suffering. And she says that she's hoping for a miracle. And Raskolnikov's like that's stupid. Raskolnikov basically says, Sonia, listen, me and you, let's get out of here. You and I together can go off and we can like middle fingers out the rear view mirror. We can get out of St. Petersburg, we can go start a life somewhere else. You and I, if we're just together, we can endure the suffering of life. Sonia. And Sonia's like no, that's stupid. I got like responsibilities, I got family here, I'm not leaving. And then no, that's not happening. But this is, I mean this is sort of like a long preamble to the topic. But this is kind of the, the thing that I wanted to talk about is this is the narcissist or the, or not even. It's just the narcissist, the like the incredibly self centered person who has given themselves over to their own ego believing that they, that they're, that the only way that they can be saved, the only way that they can, you know, have some sort of wholeness is to have somebody else like look at them and tell them and say like yes, I choose you, I want to be with you. And together we can go, we can go. You know, I, I can say basically my love can save you. This is what Svitr Gailovan Raskolnikov wants. Before we continue any, any sort of. Does this, any thoughts on this?
- [36:04]
AJ Hanenberg
Doesn't it going to happen for us calling off?
- [36:06]
Graham Donaldson
Well, it does later, but yes.
- [36:08]
AJ Hanenberg
So is your position that that's true?
- [36:10]
Graham Donaldson
No, it's not because Sonia doesn't do it. Sonia eventually does not love, rest, fall. Sonia needs Raskolnikov to confess his sins towards God before she will be with him. So, okay, a little bit of Dostoevsky's life. So this is kind of like the role of the nar. This is what sort of the. The problem of the narcissist or. This is a thing that exists and it's. It has to do with it. It is a certain pathology that exists. I think it's. There's maybe a female version of it, but the one that exists in men is this idea of. And it's kind of. It's known as the, like the Madonna complex. Have you ever heard of this before? So it's this idea that like.
- [36:56]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah, sounds like a punk album.
- [36:58]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah, it does, but it kind of works like this. So the. The. In this case the like more narcissistic man. So the spider Gaylovs, the rest Kolnikovs have this self loathing because they know what they've done and they know who they are. And they hate themselves because they need somebody else to tell them that they're good and they love them and. But they hate the fact that they need somebody else to tell them this because they're better than everybody else. And they have this like messed up complex and then they perceive some sort of vision of perfection, of an object of desire. A Dunya or a Sonja. Oh man, this woman is perfect and everything she does is perfect. And I worship the ground she walks in. I don't. I don't even want to have a, like a friendship with her. I want to. I idolize her. I worship her. I want to kiss her feet. I. She is this goddess that is so far above me and I will even do loathsome things just to make her life better because she is so glorious. Okay. Dostoevsky did this in his life. His first marriage was like this. He. There was this woman and he idolized her, absolutely loved her. And like, sort of was like this. And one of his buddies was also kind of into her and. But not like in the same way. Dossier was his buddy was kind of this like normal dude. He's like, yeah, man, she's super cute. And Dostoevsky's like, she is a goddess. And. And Dostoevsky, in order to prove his. The purity of his love, did everything in his power to convince her that his friend was worthy of her. That his friend was the best catch. Not me. No, of course not me. I. My love for you is pure and I could never even think about. About loving you. But my friend, like, like you need to be with him. And so Dostoevsky like, you know, would help her write letters to him and would help him sort of like learn. He's like, hey man, how should I talk to Maria? She seems like super dope, what should I do? And Dostoevsky be like, oh, let me tell you what to do. And he would come in and he would like and would do all these sorts of things. Eventually this sort of went on and the girl chose Dostoevsky over this guy. And actually the guy ended up being the guy, the, the rector who, who married them at the wedding. He was like the priest or not.
- [39:29]
AJ Hanenberg
Full Cyrano de Bergeraco.
- [39:31]
Graham Donaldson
He went full serendo bourgeois. But. And this is, this is how the complex works. As soon as the object of his, the perfect object of his affection was like, yeah, I like, yeah, I'll marry you, I love you. What did, how did Dostoevsky feel about her?
- [39:43]
AJ Hanenberg
Hates her.
- [39:44]
Graham Donaldson
Absolutely hates her. Yeah, she is the, she is terrible. And in fact doesn't just hate her. He throws all of the loathing that he has on her son himself onto her that she is this terrible, degraded, horrible object that she is like. And he, you know, talks about like she is this dirty creature full of like filth and vileness. And it clearly is like, it's this reflection of his own self loathing onto this person that is a dark place.
- [40:15]
AJ Hanenberg
Well, he kind of realizes she's not perfect like he thought and so she must be this terrible.
- [40:19]
Graham Donaldson
And of course like she can't be perfect. She's in love with me. I've tried, I've fooled her. I've actually got away with it because if you have this like loathing, if you have this deep knowledge of your own sin and your own, and you are ashamed of your own sin and you get away with it as soon as you perceive somebody who you think, if they really knew it would. Would like recoil from your sin. If they actually, if you can convince them or trick them or they're like, yeah, I see you who for you are and I'm fine with it. Like now you, now they are just you, you. All of that self loathing gets ported onto them anyway. This poor woman Dostoevsky was terrible to her. And this was, you know, this in his early years and this is horrible, but this is this.
- [41:05]
AJ Hanenberg
Did he eventually realize she dies.
- [41:08]
Graham Donaldson
Oh wow. They get married and she dies. She lives this like loveless marriage with Dossy FC for a couple years and he actually dossy if he gets his act Together, quits gambling, which was his big problem, and marries this woman who is like a saint. And actually she was. She ends up sort of bringing Dostoevsky to this place where he actually has the biggest funeral in. In Russia before Lenin. Lenin, really? Yeah, he had. He actually ended up being the tutor for the SARS children. Dostoevsky did? Yeah.
- [41:37]
AJ Hanenberg
Dang.
- [41:38]
Graham Donaldson
Having gone from being this, like, almost executed by the star for treason.
- [41:43]
AJ Hanenberg
I know that she helped him a lot with deadlines.
- [41:45]
Graham Donaldson
Yes. And that helped him a lot with deadlines. She basically ended up becoming this.
- [41:47]
AJ Hanenberg
She straightened him out.
- [41:48]
Graham Donaldson
She straightened him out. But anyway, my point of this is, like, is the dead man, The. The. The last. The. The. The spiritually dead, The Spider Gailovs, the Raskolnikovs, the narcissist. The person who looks at. Knows that they are. Knows that they are sinful and just doesn't want to confess because it's embarrassing. Just doesn't want to give it up and is so frustrated and angry with themselves because they're supposed to be great and they're just a regular, normal, sinful person, thinks that some things, that a human, that the love of a spouse or a girl is enough to save them. Now, if Dunya had acquiesced and been with Svitrgalov and to save her brother, eventually Siddharth would tire of Dunya, would actually end up hating Dunya, maybe even kill her. If Sonia was like, yes, Raskolnikov, me and you, let's get out of here. Eventually Raskolnikov would grow to hate Sonia because that's not going to solve the problem. So Sonia and Raskolikov do get together at the end of the book. But Sonia is adamant that what Raskolnikov has to do is he needs to confess publicly. He needs to shoulder and accept the suffering, is what she says, the suffering of justice. For your sins, you need to go to jail. And not only that, you need to be. You need to confess your sins publicly and be embarrassed for it and essentially like, show the world. She doesn't say it in this many words, but essentially you need to show that you are a regular person. You are not some, like, great man. And so the thing that I would been really reflecting on this year with this book is that there is an inevitability in life of suffering. But suffering comes in different kinds of. There's like a. There's a good suffering and there's a bad suffering. The bad suffering is. Ras Kolnikov is going to suffer his conscience and his basically he is going to. With his willpower. He is trying to stay in that sort of narcissistic pride sin. And it's eating him up and absolutely destroying him. It's bringing him to this fitter g. Off side of things, and that is suffering, or there's a suffering for doing the right thing and admitting, I am a man whose sins are no greater or no worse than anybody else's. I mean, he killed somebody. That's pretty bad. But, like, I did it not because I'm some tragic romantic hero or not because I'm some great Napoleon. I did it just because, like, I'm selfish and I wanted to. I wanted to get away with something and I wanted to get money now. And there's a suffering of kind of like, that comes with accepting that you are a regular person. And the suffering that comes with doing the right thing and actually, like, struggling towards virtue. So Raskolnikov now needs to suffer by taking responsibility for what he did. The police chief, who's on to Raskolnikov and, like, knows that Raskolnikov did it, actually clues into this and says, hey, man, I'm going to arrest you tomorrow because I know you did it. I'm going to give you a day to confess. And so you can get a lighter sentence because you just. You killed no woman. That's terrible. But I know that you're not, like, you're not going to go off and do more of this. You don't even believe your theory anymore.
- [45:28]
AJ Hanenberg
Doesn't Raskolikov say, what if I run? And he's like, what if you run?
- [45:30]
Graham Donaldson
He's like, you're not running.
- [45:31]
AJ Hanenberg
He's like, you won't run.
- [45:32]
Graham Donaldson
You won't run.
- [45:32]
AJ Hanenberg
And he's right. Because then Raskolnikov is essentially admitting, like, I am a failure.
- [45:36]
Graham Donaldson
Yeah.
- [45:37]
AJ Hanenberg
Yeah.
- [45:37]
Graham Donaldson
So he's like, listen, because you basically, he's like, you need to get out of this town. You need to go and get some air. You need to go get your head on straight. You. You. He says you need to embrace some suffering. He's like, probably the Siberian work camp. It's going to do wonders, wonders for you. It's probably going to be a good thing for you that you go and get some physical labor and be outside and get some suffering. He's like, if you don't, I'm arrest you. I'm going to arrest you in a day and you're going to get the death penalty. But if you do confess, you're. I can. We can probably get you a 10 year sentence and then, and then you can get out of jail in your mid-30s and you'll be okay and continue on with your life. Because. And then he says, who knows? He's like, maybe God has saved you for something. He says, raskolnikov, you're the kind. You know how I relate, how I regard you, says Porphyry to Raskolnikov. He says, you're the kind of guy that you, you do a full send on whatever you believe in. You're not a wishy washy person. If you're convicted of something, you go into it. You were convicted of this great man theory and you were wrong and it was dumb, but you, you went for it. He's like, you're the kind of guy that would stand in front of his, you would be martyred. You're the kind of guy that could be martyred for your faith. You're the kind of guy that could be disemboweled in the arena by the, by the pagan emperor and, and with your eyes upturned to God and hands clasped in prayer because you believed it. That's the, you are that kind of extreme person. And you have been an extreme onto the evil side. But just like how the devil was once the tall, was once the first angel, you that could be you too. You could be extreme onto the other side and you could be this extreme person who, he says, who knows what God has in store for you. So choose life, don't throw it away. Don't basically do what Svitrgalov did, which is, went so far into his depravity that he saw no way out. He said, like, you now have this opportunity to accept the good suffering that will bring you back to life. And Raskolnikov does. He goes to the street, he confesses, he says, I'm a murderer. And everyone thinks he's a drunkard and laughs at him. The thing he didn't want, he hated with people laughing at him. He puts on the cross, he goes to the police station, he says that he is the murderer. And he does, he goes to jail and still is kind of like, ah, I can't believe I did this. I'm such a loser. I should have like, got away with it. But as time goes on, he slowly comes back to the realm of being like a normal person. And Sonia stays with him the whole time. And then it's not until that rehab happens that like, it's insinuated, it's implied that they get married. I mean, she's not abandoning him, but the sort of. The thing that I was reflecting on this year of teaching, it is like there is a. There is a bit of a grace that you can have if you get to what to choose your suffering, right? Like, there's the suffering of what that comes. The natural suffering that comes from being lost in sin, like Raskolnikov was. And there's a suffering that comes with repentance because there is a suffering there. And they are both of different qualities. Like, one is a suffering, one is like a suffering which is like the foyer of hell. And one is the suffering which is like the pro. The beginnings of. Of. Of a redemption. And, and right by choosing the. Choosing the second kind of suffering, like Raskolnikov, it is a suffering that ends up saving him. So I don't know, I've just been thinking a lot about, like, the inevitability of suffering, but the, The. The goodness that comes. Or the grace that comes with being able to choose the kind of suffering that you have suffering for staying in your depravity, staying in your narcissism, staying in your pride. Remember, pride is the. Is Satan's first fall. I think it could be very. I think we could very easily say that that kind of pride where I'm better than everybody else, but I hate myself for needing everybody to recognize this. That whole complex, I think, is. Is this complex Satan had when he. When he wanted was. Was the first fall. Spite, I think, is the darkest human. I think spite is the bottom of human misery. I hate others, and I'm even willing to make myself suffer because I hate you. That's what spite is, anyway. Or Ras Kolikov can confess and. And embrace this suffering that leads to a new life. And Raskolnikov only learns this because of the love of people around him. His sister Sonia, his best friend Razumakin, his mother who doesn't understand what's going on. All she knows is her son is troubled. And so, I mean, Dostoevsky sort of has this thing at the end of his book where he worries that the world is full of narcissistic people. And as I'm teaching this book, like, all my, like, my students sort of joke, they're like, oh, my goodness. He's like somebody that, like, spends too much time in his room on his computer and is kind of like this Reddit commenter. And like the human, like, narcissism is the, I think the problem, one of the major problems of the modern age. And I, although I don't really have a good defense for it yet. I get this sense that like there's something about the digital, there's something about the like mediation of our life through a digital means that exacerbates narcissism and individualism on that in that pathological way.
- [51:36]
AJ Hanenberg
Well, I mean should be easier. Like everything is catered to you and about selling to you. Like when I look at my Instagram feed it's an algorithm that is designed to cater directly to me and probably my worst vices. Yeah, same with like I can have my Reddit feed be exactly that. Facebook is about making people pay attention to me and creating an image that other people will see. Like it's, it's all very self centered.
- [51:59]
Graham Donaldson
And so I mean we've seen those links people say oh like social media usage link is linked with depression and anxiety and it's this, it's the kind of depression anxiety that Raskolnikov is having. It is this like it's, it really is kind of this like self loathing. Like I, I, I think that I'm the best. I know I'm not the best. I need to cultivate a way and everybody thinks I'm the best. But I hate the fact that I need people, other people who I look down on to think that I'm the best. Oh why can't I just not care what people think? But I deeply care what people think. And then this sort of like self reinforcement hatred. I mean like, yeah, like likes and comments are, are a feedback loop of that, of that kind of thing and it's, I think it's sort of unlocking this deeper narcissistic pathology and lots of people, especially young people like for whom this is a formative, they're in their formative years anyway. I don't, I didn't set my timer but to sort of get, bring this thing to the conclusion. I kind of wanted to read that. So Res Kolikov, when he's in jail has a vision of the future of this sort of narcissistic age. And he create, he sort of has this vision and I want to read it because I think it's, it's scary. And Dostoevsky himself believed this was coming. So listener, you can tell me whether or not we live in this or not. So this is an epilogue of Crime Punishment. He lay in the hospital all through the end of Lenten Holy Week. As he began to recover he remembered his dreams from when he was still lying in feverish delirium. In his illness he had Dreamed that the whole world was doomed to fall victim to some terrible, as yet unknown and unseen pestilence spreading to Europe from the depths of Asia. Everyone was to perish, except for certain very few chosen ones. Some new trickin a had appeared. Microscopic creatures that lodged themselves in men's bodies like some sort of parasite. But these creatures were spirits endowed with reason and will. Those who received them into themselves immediately became possessed and mad. But never, never had people consider themselves so intelligent and unshakable in the truth as did these infected ones. Never had they thought their judgments, their scientific conclusions, their moral convictions and beliefs more unshakable. Entire settlements, entire cities and nations would be infected and go mad. Everyone became anxious and no one understood anyone else. Each thought the truth was contained in himself alone and suffered looking at others, beat his breast, wept and wrung his hands. They did not know whom or how to judge, could not agree on what to regard as evil, what was good. They did not know whom to accuse, whom to vindicate. People killed each other in some sort of meaningless spite. They gathered into whole armies against each other. But already on the march, the armies would suddenly begin destroying themselves. The ranks would break up, the soldiers would fall upon one another, stabbing and cutting, biting in one another. In the cities, the bells rang all day long. Everyone was being summoned, but no one knew who was summoning them or why. And everyone felt anxious. The most ordinary trade ceased because everyone offered his own ideas, his own corrections, and none could agree. Agriculture ceased. Here and there. People would band together, agree among themselves to do something, swear never to part, but immediately begin something completely different from what they themselves had just suggested, begin accusing one another. Fighting, stabbing, fires broke out, famine broke out. Everyone and everything was perishing. The pestilence grew and spread further and further. Only a few people in the whole world could be saved. They were pure and chosen, destined to begin a new generation of people and a new life, to renew and purify the earth. But no one had seen these people anywhere. No one had heard their words or voices. So this is. I mean, Dostoevsky has this little story in 1860s, 1870s, did not know, maybe the 1950s, you know, 60 years later you get this communist revolution and where. And then also this. And then also just like, yeah, you just hear that and you think about like, how do we society sort of break and fall apart? And we've sort of looked at this in our. In our Plato episode of. Of. Of Book eight and stuff, but he sort of has this vision that it really does come down to this in this little parable, it's like a microscopic creature that makes you go crazy. But I think Dossier's talking about like this individualism, this narcissism that comes. That thinking that I am the sole arbiter of everything that is right and everyone out there is just idiots is kind of the, this corrosive force on, on, on cohesion in society. And the whole thing falls apart because of it. And so it really is kind of this like spiritual issue. And the salvation for Raskolnikov is not, is not some kind of like learn to love your neighbor or is not some kind of like tolerance for the poor. It's not like, oh, you need to go and really learn about like the person you murdered and like really feel like you like really walk a mile in their shoes and then you will become a productive member of society. It's too, it is like the complete abandonment of themselves to repentance and, and a willingness to accept the suffering that comes with change towards virtue and redemption. It is to win out is to, is to confess the sins, wear the cross, accept the punishment, and do the slow work of walking yourself back. So the very last line of crime punishment is. But here begins a new account. The account of a man's gradual renewal, the account of his gradual regeneration, his gradual transition from one world to another, his acquaintance with a new, hitherto completely unknown reality. It might make the subject of a new story, but our present one is ended. So Dostoevsky sort of says like, basically Raskolnikov needs to have this transition from being a citizen of one kind of kingdom to a different kind of kingdom. And Dostoevsky being, you know, an Orthodox, this idea of going from this, this like fallen world of power over one another to this world of suffering for like what Sonia does or suffering for, for the redemption that comes being raised from the dead by Christ is the salvation of Raskolnagov. So anyway, that's kind of the, the sort of the, the thoughts from, from thinking about this. What really is behind narcissism also this, like, this there's such a, like energy diverted outwards towards people. And I think that's, I think that's the thing that, where that gets, creates a lot of relational damage is when somebody like really vociferously needs somebody else to love them. That is not a good thing. That is not a healthy thing. That is because they are needing to cope with their own self loathing. Oh, if only this good person who is virtuous loves me, then I must be good and virtuous myself. And when that good and first virtuous person gets their arms twisted into loving you, you would then hate them because how could they be so stupid to love somebody who is actually like, as bad as me? And then the whole thing is just so dark and gross. The only way to break out of that is to realize you're just a regular person. You are just a man. And like all men, you need to repent. And that is the only way that Raskolnikov can can be raised from the dead.
- [60:40]
AJ Hanenberg
So, all right, well, while Graham is just a man, I am not. And all of his ideas he couldn't have had unless I really had him first. And if there are any hot mamas out there who virtuous, you can give me a call. This has been classical stuff you should know with aj, Graham and Thomas. You can reach out to us at the guys@classical stuff.net you can go to our website classical stuff.net you can check us out on patreon patreon.com classical stuff or on Twitter. I'm with you. I'm just going to call it Twitter.
- [61:10]
Graham Donaldson
That's right.
- [61:10]
AJ Hanenberg
That's all it is. Twitter at clsscal Stuff. And I think that's it. You can check us out.
- [61:16]
Graham Donaldson
Yep.
- [61:16]
AJ Hanenberg
We, we like you guys. Nobody listens this far. I could almost say what I rutabaga. I can say whatever I want.