283: Beauty and the Beast

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know — Episode 283: Beauty and the Beast

Date: September 2, 2025
Hosts: AJ Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Overview

In this episode, the trio dives into the enduring fairy tale "Beauty and the Beast," exploring its origins, the influential Andrew Lang "Rainbow" Fairy Books, and the cultural, literary, and moral themes embedded in classical fairy tales. The hosts consider how these tales have been shaped by and for children, discuss critical perspectives from Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, and reflect on the archetypal roles and enduring wisdom within Beauty and the Beast.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What is "Beauty and the Beast"? (00:48–01:18)

• The episode unpacks one of the original versions of "Beauty and the Beast," highlighting that there are many iterations across cultures.
• Graeme notes his inspiration: "Of course, I’m talking about this because this is one of the stories that my kids are reading as a part of their story." (01:16)

2. Andrew Lang and the Blue Fairy Book (02:36–06:15)

• The source text discussed is from The Blue Fairy Book, part of Andrew Lang's famous "Rainbow Fairy" series.
• While Lang is credited, much of the collection and translation was done by his wife, Leonora Blanche Lang (05:22).
• Lang's aim: "He is also an academic, so he’s, like, researching these stories to kind of draw out meanings or why these stories exist... but then there is this piece of their stories for kids." (06:30)

3. Purpose and Audience of Fairy Tales (06:15–10:25)

• Hosts question whether fairy tales are for children and if that's a diminutive or condescending view.
  • AJ: "So is he essentially excusing himself from criticism, like, of course you don’t like it; it’s for kids?" (09:53)
• They discuss the wisdom in fairy tales for everyone, not just the young.

4. Tolkien’s Critique of Fairy Tales as Children's Literature (09:16–16:10)

• Quoting Tolkien’s On Fairy Stories, they highlight Tolkien's belief that fairy tales are not just for children.
  • "Fairy stories should not be specifically associated with children. They are associated with them naturally, because children are human and fairy stories are a natural human taste, though not necessarily a universal one..." (14:10)
• Discuss the harm in "winking" at the adult audience, undermining the story’s magic and meaning for the child (16:05).
  • Justin: "That creates a little crisis in... Everything that I grew up enjoying is an adult joke on me. And I feel like that’s a really bad thing to do to a kid..." (17:14)

5. Moral Imprint of Stories on Children (19:03–20:39)

• The group reflects on the powerful effect of stories on a child's moral development.
  • Justin: "Just like with a wax seal, the imprint that you make on the wax seal when it’s pliable will last forever. So too the moral formation of a child." (19:03)

6. Classical vs Modern Storytelling: On Redefining Monsters (22:38–27:02)

• C.S. Lewis is cited on the importance of keeping archetypes intact and avoiding "ungrammatical" novelty (21:30).
  • AJ: "Anytime you take something that should be a dragon... and you make it like a dragon that loves to shop, you’ve killed it." (22:27)
• They discuss how modern tales often depict monsters or villains as misunderstood rather than evil, contrasting with classical tales where evil must be defeated (24:04–26:43).

7. Understanding and Sympathy for Evil (27:12–28:55)

• The conversation shifts to society’s tendency to sympathize with villains once their backstories are known.
  • Justin: "We don’t look at the crime, and we sort of sympathize with the killer... We feel like we’re being merciful." (27:46)
  • AJ: "There are people who are abused and don’t go and become serial killers. Right?" (28:11)

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Beauty and the Beast: The Tale Retold

(Main story begins at 29:00)

8. Summary of Andrew Lang's Version (29:00–54:42)

• The Setup:
  • Once upon a time, a merchant with six sons and six daughters loses his fortune (29:30). Beauty, the titular "Beauty," is singularly good and asks only for a rose when her father travels.
• The Castle and the Beast:
  • On his return, the merchant loses his way and finds an enchanted castle. After eating the Beast's food and picking a rose for Beauty, he is confronted by the Beast—here depicted as "an elephant-warthog man with man hands" (36:11).
  • The Beast demands that one of the merchant’s daughters come to live with him as the price for the stolen rose. She must come willingly (38:29).
• Beauty's Exchange:
  • Beauty agrees to save her father. She finds the Beast to be not just civil, but even pleasant, and the story focuses more on her experiences in the castle than on action (43:34).
  • She dreams nightly of a handsome prince who cryptically tells her not to judge by appearances.
  • The Beast asks Beauty to marry him every night; she always refuses (47:48).
• Return Home and Realization:
  • Beauty is allowed to return home for two months. Her family has moved on, and she feels out of place (49:59). Her prince dreams cease.
  • After dreaming the Beast is dying, she hurries back and finds him near death. Overcome by emotion, she realizes she loves him (51:32).
• Transformation and Resolution:
  • As soon as she accepts him and says yes, the Beast transforms back into the prince (53:31).
  • The magic is explained: He was cursed by an evil fairy; only true love could break it.
  • There is a joyful marriage, family reunion, and “happily ever after.”
  • Graeme: "That's how you do a fairy tale, right?" (54:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• AJ on modern adaptations:
  • "Anytime you take something that should be a dragon… and you make it like a dragon that loves to shop, you've… killed it." (22:27)
• Justin on the lesson of Beauty and the Beast:
  • "Things are lovable once you love them. It's until you love something that you transform it into being lovable." (12:47)
• Graham, on adult ‘winks’ in fairy tales:
  • "You're adding all this complexity for the adult who's like..." (16:15)
• Graeme, on the core of fairy tales:
  • "As you winnow it down like that, you also move from it being a story to it being an archetype." (58:44)
• AJ, referencing C.S. Lewis:
  • "There is therefore a special reason why mythical poetry ought not to attempt novelty in respect to its ingredients..." (21:32)

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Important Thematic Timestamps

• 00:48 — Introduction to Beauty and the Beast as topic
• 03:33 — Overview of Andrew and Leonora Blanche Lang’s contributions
• 09:16 — Discussion of Tolkien’s critique of fairy tales as “just for children”
• 14:10 — Tolkien quote about fairy stories and children
• 19:03 — Childhood reading and moral development
• 22:38 — C.S. Lewis on archetype; discussion of modern vs. classical monsters
• 29:00 — Full retelling of Beauty and the Beast begins
• 43:34 — Beauty’s character and her experience in the castle
• 49:59 — Beauty’s return home and her sense of displacement
• 51:32 — The emotional climax: love realized and the beast’s transformation
• 54:42 — Fairy tale ending; brief discussion of the backstory and curse

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Conclusion: Archetypes, Morals, and Meaning

• Fairy tales communicate perennial human truths and archetypes, holding value beyond simple "children's literature."
• The classic "Beauty and the Beast" revolves around love's transformative power, virtue rewarded, and the importance of not being deceived by appearances.
• Modern reinterpretations often lose the archetypal clarity by muddying moral distinctions or overcomplicating motives.
• The group celebrates the value in direct, archetypal storytelling, siding with Tolkien and Lewis in preserving the power and wonder these tales possess for adults and children alike.

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For Further Reading

• The Blue Fairy Book by Andrew (and Leonora) Lang
• J.R.R. Tolkien's essay On Fairy Stories
• C.S. Lewis's introduction to Paradise Lost

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End of Content

Transcript

[AJ]

Hey, everybody, and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know this is a podcast, mostly about old things. So old books, old notions, old philosophy, sometimes art on occasion. Sometimes math. On occasion.

[Justin]

We did math.

[AJ]

Yeah, we did.

[Graham]

Euclid. Euclid. Oh, yeah.

[AJ]

Forever ago, remember? And I am here with one beauty and one the Beast. I'll let you guys figure out which is which.

[Graham]

Graham's the beauty. Let's be honest. Yeah, it's not even. Yeah, look at that. So I'm the Beast. Like, do it. Can I talk like that the rest of this time? Sure.

[Justin]

It's hard being beautiful.

[Graham]

It sounds.

[AJ]

It's a curse.

[Graham]

I wouldn't know.

[Justin]

You got the Achaeans and the Trojans fighting over you.

[Graham]

Yep. Oh, you're Helen. Okay, well, this is cool. Okay, did you say our names? I'm Thomas. He's Graham. Yep. There you go. Cool.

[AJ]

That's that.

[Graham]

Living the dream. And we're here to talk about a.

[Justin]

Tale as old as time.

[Graham]

That song is old as rhyme.

[AJ]

That song as old. I almost said old as wine, and that is a misremembering of lyrics.

[Justin]

I mean, old wine's great.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[AJ]

There's also new wine. It's just. It's a line that means nothing.

[Graham]

Now I'm questioning the lyric. There's no way that it's wine, though, right?

[AJ]

No, it's not wine.

[Graham]

It's Disney.

[AJ]

Old as rhyme.

[Graham]

Right?

[Justin]

Tale is old as rhyme.

[AJ]

Or is it old as time?

[Graham]

Time.

[Justin]

Tale as old as time. Song is old as rhyme.

[Graham]

Oh, I bet that's oldest rhyme. Beauty and the Beast. Yeah, we're talking about Beauty and the Beast.

[AJ]

Sorry, you haven't gathered it already?

[Graham]

Sorry, it took me a while to remember my own topic. So we will be talking about, I guess, one of the original versions of Beauty and the Beast. There are, as maybe is not surprising, multiple different versions. We'll talk a little bit about that. One of our AMA questions asked us where we get our inspiration from, and I interpreted that as our inspiration for our episodes. And of course, I'm talking about this because this is one of the stories that my kids are reading as a part of their story.

[Justin]

I interpreted that as going on a doomer tirade.

[Graham]

You did. You spoke for, I think, 20 minutes kind of on your own, and then had more to say after that.

[AJ]

Sorry, a few minutes ago, I stopped you because I said we'd have time during the episode, and I meant mine because it was about warfare so you could continue. I wasn't trying to like parade.

[Graham]

I was like, I was wondering what his doomer tirade had to do with Beauty and the Beast.

[Justin]

Let's get into it.

[AJ]

But it would have to do with warfare, like Sun Tzu's Art of War.

[Graham]

Which is what you're. Oh, I see.

[AJ]

Right. So I wasn't just trying to, like, shut you, like, shut up. Let's talk about a children's story. It was. Hey, we can actually talk about it.

[Justin]

I probably should just shut up and talk about children's stories.

[Graham]

I think you'd be happier. I think you'd be a lot happier. Okay, so we're talking about Beauty and the Beast, but I guess to get there, we'll have to get to the book itself. So this is a book. What color is the.

[Justin]

That is a blue book.

[Graham]

This is a blue book. And you all already know the title of this, but our listeners don't. What is the name of this blue book?

[AJ]

Beauty and the Beast. You're showing us the backside.

[Graham]

I know. That's why I didn't want to show you the title.

[AJ]

I do.

[Graham]

I have a lot of blue books. If you were to guess.

[AJ]

You think we pay attention to the things you talk.

[Graham]

I don't think you've heard a word I've said for 200 episodes, babe.

[AJ]

Blue ox.

[Graham]

So if you were looking at a book that's blue, what would you name this book?

[Justin]

The Blue Book.

[Graham]

The Blue Book. This is the Blue Fairy Book. That's the only edition that I would add to that.

[AJ]

How are we supposed to know it's.

[Graham]

A blue book called the Blue Book?

[AJ]

But, you know. It's called the Blue Fairy. Fairy.

[Graham]

It is the Blue Fairy Book.

[AJ]

I was thinking cars.

[Graham]

Why were you thinking.

[Justin]

I was thinking I was doing in class.

[Graham]

I thought you meant cars. The Pixar movie. And I said, what does that have to do with any of this?

[AJ]

Have you guys ever seen planes?

[Graham]

Life is a highway. What?

[AJ]

It's like a car's spin off planes.

[Graham]

I've heard of this. I've never watched it.

[AJ]

Highly racist.

[Graham]

Oh, okay.

[AJ]

It's just. It's just racial stereotypes. Like, I'm not kidding. Even as. Even in high school, I watched it and I was like, oh, my gosh.

[Graham]

This is pretty rough. Racist. Speaking of racism, we'll talk about the. I don't know. Okay. I don't have a segue for that one. So it's the name of this collection of not fairy stories. What would I call this? Maybe I will. It's the Blue Fairy Book. So there are fairy tales. Fairy tales. But the helpful name, literally, is just based on the color of the title. This is part of a broader set of books that will sometimes be called the Rainbow Fairy books. And as you might imagine, there are different colors for each of the different books. So as new ones come out, he just picks a different color. So the first one is blue, the second one is red. Then we go into other colors from there. So not very helpful in terms of, like, figuring out which one has which story. But they look very cool on a bookshelf, so that's worth something. I'm sure the book was put together by a Mr. Andrew Lang. Does that. Is that a name that rings a bell with anyone? Someone you've heard of before, a friend of yours from back in high school? Nothing? Okay. Andrew Lang is a Scottish academic. He. I guess he did many things. He wrote stories, he wrote poetry. But he also most famously, collected stories. He collected these. Well, let me give my first caveat off the bat. I will say that Andrew Lang collected these stories. What he reveals in a later book, I think it's the Lilac Fairy Book, he reveals it's actually his wife who did most of the collection of the stories and, I believe, most of the translation of these stories. What is he doing putting his name on the front and probably collecting royalties. I don't know. So his wife is.

[AJ]

Maybe he picked the colors.

[Graham]

He might not have even done that. I really can't say. But his wife is Leonora Blanche Lang after getting married. And so while I will say Andrew Lang's name many times, to be more precise, it's very likely Leonora or the two of them together, who actually put these books together, actually did these translations. So, yeah, he collects these fairy tales, and then we. This is a. He is not writing them himself. Right. He is getting them from other sources, compiling them into the. Into these books. And then we now have them to this day, as we'll see with Beauty and the Beast, what he has is one version of the story. It's not to say it's like the version of the story. All right. A question you might have off the bat is why is he putting these books together? Do you want to. What are some reasons a person would put a book of fairy tales together?

[AJ]

Children and cash.

[Graham]

Okay, I like those as two reasons. Mmm.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Justin]

I was gonna say that was something that maybe he was doing for his kids.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[AJ]

Or to record his culture. Like, if Scotland is rife with stories, we don't want to let those go away.

[Graham]

We got all the big ones. So this is interesting. So he is collecting stories. They're from all different kinds of countries. So it's not just from Scotland, but so Beauty and the Beast, it's a French story. And so it'll get added in here, be translated. So we'll have. But he's collecting them from, I want to say, all over the world. But I'm sure it's, you know, I'm sure if I, like, plotted out a map of all the places where stories came from, it's not literally the whole world. Right. But it's not just Scottish stories that he's collecting. So that's a great answer of wants this collection of them. He'll have this kind of description of. He's doing this to capture these old ideas, to capture these old. I have not seen him use the word archetype in this way. I'm sure it's in there, but it's kind of like capturing the imagination of, like, a younger age or an earlier, more primitive age. That's a part of it, is what he wants to not forget these stories, to not lose these stories. He is also an academic, so he's like, researching these stories to kind of draw out meanings or why these stories exist. So there is, like, a kind of functional component to it. But then there is this piece of their stories for kids. This is the preface. The preface. This is line one of the first book of these. Of all these fairy stories. This is Andrew Lang writing. The tales in this volume are intended for children who will like, it is hoped, the old stories that have pleased so many generations. And then after that, it's just a bunch of translation notes. Does anything. Does that strike you in any way? Is there anything that. Have any hackles been raised by my one sentence there, which I'll read again. The tales in this volume are intended for children who will like, it is hoped, the old stories that have pleased so many generations.

[Justin]

No, my hackles aren't raised.

[Graham]

Okay.

[AJ]

It sounds okay to me.

[Graham]

Cool.

[AJ]

Should I have my hackles raised?

[Graham]

I think so.

[AJ]

Am I being played for a fool?

[Graham]

Always. In every episode. Aj, welcome back. Glad to have you here.

[Justin]

You're not gonna reveal halfway through the episode that this is, like, Marxist literature and you've got us, like, invested in it like you did that one episode.

[Graham]

It's still a highlight of this podcast for me.

[AJ]

Oh, what was it?

[Graham]

The. It was the history of common life.

[Justin]

It's like the people's history of.

[AJ]

Critical theory.

[Graham]

Right? Critical theory. It was all critical theory, and I revealed it at the end, and that episode went really well.

[Justin]

We were being polite as we were.

[Graham]

You were being very polite.

[AJ]

And then thus started our history of nemeses.

[Graham]

Yeah, that's exact. Yep. Me, the resident communist. So forever ago, we did an episode on an essay by Tolkien called On Fairy Stories. Does this ring a bell? So on Fairy Stories, I will not recover it here. It's like a long. It's a long essay.

[Justin]

Is my hackles that this is just for children and not for adults?

[Graham]

That's what I'm wondering. Okay.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Graham]

Yeah. If that would raise the question.

[AJ]

Most fairy stories would be acceptable to both.

[Graham]

Or let's think of, like, when Tolkien's writing fantasy, which may or may not be a fairy story. We don't need to go into distinctions. It's not important. But in writing about fantasy, that often will get called, like, kid stuff. Right. Like, it's a kid's kind of literature, kids kind of book. He's opening off the bat by saying, this is for children. I think we've spent some time with Aesop saying that they've kind of been reinterpreted as four children. But I think there's a wisdom there that is for anyone who wants to spend time with the stories.

[AJ]

So is he essentially excusing himself from criticism, like, of course you don't like it. It's for kids.

[Graham]

That's interesting. I view it more as kind of a condescending, like, you know, these are but mere children's stories. And even I kind of made reference to this. But it's kind of a like, oh, these more primitive peoples have these kind of stories that like, delight children. Yeah. That are for children when, like, really, it's probably the wisdom of the culture of, like, here's the greatest or not.

[AJ]

The greatest, like calling the Iliad tis but a mere children's about warfare.

[Justin]

I see what you're saying.

[Graham]

I think that's exactly right. And so there. There is a kind of. We won't really go into it here, but I just kind of want to flag that in reading it. There is a kind of, I would say maybe condescension or maybe a kind of, like, smugness of, like, yeah, this is four kids. This isn't like, real quote unquote literature or real quote unquote stories. Tolkien picks up on this in. On fairy stories. So he actually talks a lot about Andrew Lang in that. In that speech. And I should even say that I call it an essay. He wrote it as a speech for. Do you want to guess? He wrote it for a lecture series. What's the name of that lecture series? The Andrew Lang lecture.

[Justin]

Oh, there you go.

[Graham]

At the University of St. Andrews, which is where Andrew Lang taught. This was after Lang.

[Justin]

Was he a professor of.

[Graham]

I was going to say philology, but that's Tolkien. Is it anthropology? Am I right? Let me make sure I'm right on that one. It's fine. But he at least went to. I know he went to University of St. Andrews to get his education and then. I don't have it here. Something. He studied something. It was very interesting. But then University of St. Andrews then started this lecture series that's the Andrew Lang Lectures. And Tolkien would eventually speak on it and he prepared his remarks on fairy stories for that lecture series in particular. The speech then ends up being an essay and has a life of its own, kind of separate from this Lang connection. But Tolkien is fairly critical of Lang in the. In the lecture.

[Justin]

For this reason.

[Graham]

Yeah. This is one of the points he makes. So Tolkien deals with this topic of, like, are fairy tales just for kids? And he would say no, because good. Good fairy tales are for anyone. And it's. I think the Odyssey or the Iliad is a great comparison of. There's a lot that kids can be interested in, but there's a depth to it that really sustains the test of time. Like, really can. Can bear multiple readings. And like, there's.

[Justin]

Well, they. They teach great truths.

[Graham]

Right.

[Justin]

Like the truth of Beauty and the Beast is that, like, things are lovable once you love them.

[Graham]

Right.

[Justin]

It's until you love something that you transform it into being lovable.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And that's like, not just a lesson for children.

[Graham]

And I think that's. We'll get to. When we get there. Of. There's a way that these stories, kind of. At least this one, again, I'm starting with one in particular, kind of wears its theme on its sleeve. Like, it's pretty upfront with what it's about. And I wonder if that is something Lang is kind of putting on top of it, because it's. If you come at it from this is four children. I need to interpret it for children. Therefore, let's be really clear of what.

[Justin]

So let's put a little moral at the beginning or moral at the end.

[Graham]

So you like, really now?

[Justin]

Because you don't have a moral in Delia. Like, you don't. It doesn't say, like, gather around kids.

[Graham]

I talked in a previous AMA about, like, my kids because I read a. It's an adapted version. It takes some parts out, but the. I've read the Elliot and the Odyssey to my kids and, like, they're really stuck on who are the good guys. Right. And like that's kind of the question. Right? Or like there is no clear. Yeah, I mean, Hector, but he's fighting on the wrong side. Like that's my problem with it.

[AJ]

No, he's fighting the right side.

[Justin]

No, Paris started the thing.

[Graham]

Yeah, yeah.

[AJ]

But his he can't kill his brother, so he's sort of stuck.

[Justin]

Being stuck is the point is like who's the good guys and bad guys once when a good guy is stuck on the for the bad reason because he can't kill his brother.

[AJ]

And I also admit that he did run away from Achilles at the very end.

[Graham]

Yep. Bummer. Let me read this from Tolkien talking about this, our fairy tales for kids idea. This is again, it's from On Fairy Stories, an excellent essay. You should go read it on your own. I have said perhaps more than enough on this point at least it will be plain that in my opinion, fairy stories should not be specifically associated with children. They are associated with them naturally, because children are human and fairy stories are a natural human taste, though not necessarily a universal one, accidentally, because fairy stories are a large part of the literary lumber that in latter day Europe has been stuffed away in attics unnaturally because of erroneous sentiment about children, a sentiment that seems to increase with the decline in children. So there are these like three reasons. One's a good reason, one's a mixed reason. One's a bad reason. It is true that the age of childhood sentiment has produced some delightful books, especially charming, however, to adults of the fairy kind, or near to it. But it has also produced a dreadful undergrowth of stories written or adapted to what was or is conceived to be the measure of children's minds and needs. The old stories are mollified or bowdlerized instead of being reserved. The imitations are often merely silly pig wig gentry without even the intrigue or patronizing, or deadliest of all, covertly sniggering with an eye on the other grownups present. I will not accuse Andrew Lang of sniggering, but certainly he smiled to himself, and certainly too often he had an eye on the face of other clever people, over the heads of his child audience, to the very grave detriment of the Chronicles of Pantaflia. Lang collected a bunch of fairy tales. That's what these rainbow fairy books are. He also wrote his own fairy tales, and those are more like tongue in cheek, like it's taking how the genre is typically done and twisting it a little bit to kind of have like a wink at the audience of.

[Justin]

Well, it sounds like. Not the audience, a wink at the.

[Graham]

Adults, the people reading it. Yeah.

[Justin]

Like you're reading this story and the author is talking to you, dad reading it at bedtime. And it goes over the head of the kid.

[Graham]

And he'll have an example here where it's like, the hero will kill a bad guy and then have this long diatribe of whether killing is right or wrong. And it's like, yeah, but the hero won. The kid should be able to just unreservedly cheer at this. And you're adding all this complexity for the adult who's like. Also.

[Justin]

And Tolkien is saying that this is. That this is kind of undermining. Undermining the magic of the book itself.

[Graham]

The story itself, in part of.

[Justin]

I agree with that. Yeah. I think I'm on Tolkien's side with this.

[Graham]

Yeah, I agree. So that's. So for the purpose of this episode, I'm going to start into Lang's version of Beauty and the Beast, and then in the in between, we'll talk a little bit about some differences between this version and other popular versions. So probably not going to get that in the main episode. Some of it's a little risque. I don't know. I don't really want to put it on the main episode. So we'll save it for the in between.

[Justin]

Because the difficult. The problem is, is, like, at some point, that kid grows up and is beginning to see the wink.

[Graham]

Yes.

[Justin]

And that creates a little crisis in. Oh, man. Everything that I grew up enjoying is an adult joke on me. And I feel like that's a really bad thing to do to a kid because then they start thinking that, like, they're, like, the things that they believed in when they were children is really just a trick played on them by adults. And now I'm becoming an adult, and you sort of now have this, like.

[Graham]

You have to do the tricking.

[Justin]

You either have to do the trick or you sort of realize that, like, the relationship between old and young is a relationship of, like, mockery. And. And I think that that's. That's a. That's really bad. That's a really bit sort of. It's not. You don't love a child if you do that.

[Graham]

Yeah, that's. I've told. I think we've. It's probably only been. I keep referencing AMAs. If you are a Patreon supporter, you get to listen to our monthly conversations. They're great. You should listen to them. The favorite Thing that my kids have been reading recently has been this adaptation of the Iliad and the Odyssey, also Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Now, it has to cut out some stuff that is like, I would not want to read to my children, but otherwise is a faithful version of that story. And then otherwise it's the. I don't know how to pronounce the name. It's the book of Greek myths. The name is D, apostrophe, A, U, L, E, R, E, S. Dolores. I don't know. But presenting to them something that is. They are just like versions of stories that I hope they will actually read when they're older. Right. It's not just here's a throwaway book you're reading because you're a kid, but here's something that is comprehensible to you, but the content is still good. That's what I want to spend time with them reading. And that's something that I hope doesn't have that disillusionment you're describing.

[Justin]

It's important. I was reading my commonplace book, Plugs for commonplace Books last night, and I came across an old quote that I had written from St John Chrysostom where he's talking about on the education of children. And he's talking about that, like, just like with a wax seal, the imprint that you make on the wax seal when it's. When it's pliable will last forever. So to the moral formation of a child. And so like, the things that you read in childhood and. Or maybe even just what we were talking about before, like, if a childhood. If someone is reading something in childhood and grows up and realizes that they were all just little jokes played on them by the adults.

[Graham]

Right.

[Justin]

That is a moral formation that is going to make that kid pretty cynical.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And so the moral formation, like, you need to re. Like, the books we read to kids should be ones where we as the adults reading them are like, cut to the heart of how good the hero is in comparison to modern life or whatever. And we say, like, oh, man, I want to be like, I should be like the cowboy or the knight or the. Whatever you're reading. Yeah, but it's not. But it's not like, pedantic and saccharine, but it's like, it's actually, you know, interesting and inspiring and. And not. Not overly simplistic. Like you're saying we'd reread the Iliad where my kids are like, who are the good guys, bad guys? And it's like, well, sometimes like, that is a question we don't know how to answer when we're old, too.

[Graham]

Right.

[Justin]

But JJ's point, like, the guy on the side that started the war is also the most virtuous or the most honorable. Most honorable character in the book. And there's. There's a tension there.

[Graham]

So I like that. Now. I don't want to. I'm not. I'm not intending to totally dunk on Lang because, like, I find the story. I think this is. I guess it's unfortunate. When we look at other versions of the story, there are parts of it that feel unnecessary to the story itself that would then make it like, you would never read that to a child. And there's a lot of Lang will in this version. There's a lot of backstory that is not included because I don't think it's important. We'll get into it in a little bit. But there are parts of it that I think it's helped by a shorter version made appropriate so that, like, kids can read it. Like, there are benefits to this approach. So I don't want to be totally negative on it, but just want to flag that this is not the only version, and there's some question of, like, a Lang approach versus others.

[AJ]

Can I read a quote that our discussion just brought up? That's why I was Googling.

[Graham]

I wasn't sort of, like, checking my.

[AJ]

Email, but it's from CS Lewis in his introduction to Paradise Lost. He says, there is therefore a special reason why mythical poetry ought not to attempt novelty in respect to its ingredients. What it does with the ingredients may be as novel as you please, but giants, dragons, paradises, gods, and the like are themselves the expression of certain basic elements in man's spiritual experience. In that sense, they're more like words, the words of a language which speaks the else unspeakable, than they are like people and places in a novel. To give them radically new characters is not so much original as ungrammatical. So I was thinking about that Lang book where he sort of like, does wink, wink at the adults. Anytime you take something that should be a dragon, which is an expression of some sort of spiritual element of humanity, and you make it like a dragon that loves to shop, like you've. You've killed. What? It's ungrammatical. It's not novel. It's not original. It's. You are breaking something that shouldn't be broken.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[AJ]

So a hero should be a hero and be okay to say, like, I should have killed that dragon. That's my duty. Instead of thinking, you know, it's killing. Okay. Like, that kind of thing. There's just. You said that and I was like, I know. Exactly.

[Graham]

Did Twilight make you lose your mind? Like, isn't that the whole thing too? Of, like, vampires can actually be okay and sparkly?

[AJ]

Like, it's.

[Justin]

But this is every children's book now. Every children's movie is the reimagining of the old story into, like, into something it shouldn't be into something it shouldn't be to sort of answer some sort of present cultural thing.

[Graham]

So, like, the bad guys are misunderstood.

[Justin]

The monster is not a terrible monster. He's just misunderstood. And as soon as he's sort of like welcomed into the full bloom, he welcomed it in the friend group, you all sort of get this, like, richer depth of experience.

[AJ]

And like, I understand the impulse to want to train children into how to accept their friends, but monsters exist. Correct. And they don't exist because they're pure evil. They exist because they're twisted.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[AJ]

And we can recognize that a thing can be twisted and yet be a monster. Correct. And those things, like, need to exist in the world. Or say dwarves in books, as the expression of, like, there are two coins to a dwarf. Right. The healthy acceptance of, like, diligence and appreciation of beauty or greed.

[Justin]

Or greed.

[AJ]

Like, that's what a dwarf is supposed to be. Right? Yes. Mining too deep. A healthy dwarf is one who builds, who digs and who appreciates beauty and drinks with his friends. And then there's a dwarf who does damage by digging too deep.

[Justin]

And it is true that the twisted monster can be healed and can be brought into community through love and acceptance.

[Graham]

Right.

[Justin]

But not acceptance of the twistedness. The twistedness becomes straight upon the love and acceptance, which is probably also the. Like the Beauty and the Beast. If the book ended with the beast not turning into a man, but he's just sort of like loved for his beast is that's. That's probably the wrong. The wrong version of this. But the fact that he's turned into. I mean, I think a lot of what people don't like about fairy tales is that they are advocating a sense of normalcy in human affairs. And I think as modern people, we don't like the concept of normal. We don't. We think that that is an offensive term. That, that, that there is a normal way of living life is. Is deeply offensive. That in sort of the panoply of.

[AJ]

Expressions and something you just said, that the monster's twistedness becomes straight when he is accepted. I don't think that's it. I think he gets accepted once he has straightened.

[Justin]

Yeah, you're right. There is some sort of. There's some. There's a moral change in the monster.

[AJ]

That makes like there's always a thing like you have to go through the hard thing. And it makes me think of Eustace in. Right. So Eustace is broken and at some point he like gets greedy, gets himself into trouble. And Aslan says, like, I have to do something to you and it's gonna hurt. But after that happens, the kids straightened out.

[Justin]

But even before Eustace was straightened out, there was like a begrudgence acceptance of use. I mean, they were trapped on a boat, but there was like a begrudging acceptance of Eustace being around.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Justin]

So at. Some attempts were made to try to love Eustace that he rebuffed because being. He was a little. He was a little twit.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But then you're right. Then uses had to go through the moral formation. And then there's that really great scene where Eustace comes and he seems to be changed. And one of the guys on the boat is like, I don't believe it. And it's up. And then it's like the actual courage of the. The of his cousins. I think it was. It was Edmund or whatever to actually accept Eustace. And there was even a whole chapter where it says Eustace didn't immediately become amazing. Like, he still was annoying for a little bit, but every day he was a little bit slightly less annoying. And that's, you know, I think Lewis, you know, is pretty. Understands human nature when he's writing that.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[AJ]

And then there are things like the witch, which is so twisted it is now unredeemable because she refuses to be redeemed. She doesn't want what you're offering.

[Graham]

But there are characters that want. But they want to like, bring her back. Right. They want to bring the white. Depending on which book you're reading, like they want to bring the white witch back or like they want to use that power. Like.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Graham]

It's like it's not to. It's not because she's actually good, it's because they're evil. Right. It's to make that point instead.

[AJ]

Like, Eva, it's okay to say evil is a real thing. And before we accept it into our community, it has to figure out how to not be evil. And if it doesn't do that, like, we should shun it and we should defeat It. Like that. That's. Is a thing.

[Graham]

Yes. Which I think you'll see. Well, maybe not. Yes. That is how these fairy story. The fairy tales are structured. Right.

[Justin]

Whereas.

[Graham]

Whereas.

[Justin]

Yeah, the. The modern story is. Is. It's not evil. It's just misunderstood.

[Graham]

Yes.

[Justin]

And once we sort of look at evil from evil's point of view, we now have like, a richer tapestry of life or whatever.

[AJ]

Yeah. And I think the classical understanding is like, okay, how it got to be where it is is maybe understandable. It is still yet twisted and must untwist before we can accept it.

[Justin]

Yeah. This is reminding me of the, like, Sympathy and Satan episode that we did a long time ago.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Which is sort of asking this question. It's like you can understand where Satan. How Satan got to where Satan's at, but that is not a justification for where he. Where the evil is.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Although I think a lot of us confuse that and say that it is a justification for the evil because we understood it.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Justin]

All those troop, like, all those, like, people who love, like, serial killer podcasts or something.

[Graham]

Oh, you think it's to get sympathy for the killer?

[Justin]

I think so. I think a lot of people listen to these things and, like, I can understand where he's coming from because of, you know, I get angry.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Where you. All these sort of terrible things that happened to him. He's young and now he's killing people. I think we. We don't look at the crime and we. And we sort of sympathize with the. With the killer as. I don't know why. I don't know what. What there is. It's like, I think we feel like we're being merciful.

[AJ]

Well, and I think it's. We know that there's wrong in our own lives, and if we can have mercy on him, maybe we deserve some as well.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[AJ]

Maybe it's a. I think maybe that's a piece of it. But there are people who are abused and don't go and become serial killers. Right. And are determined to live their lives better and help the downtrodden, which is a different, better end.

[Graham]

Yeah. We got this question a while ago of, like, when. At what age should you teach a kid, like, the nuance between good and evil? And my answer was never. And you all had much better answers than that.

[Justin]

That.

[Graham]

But what you all are saying is why My answer is never of, like, there should be no nuance for the person who's gone out and killed people serially. Right. Like that. That is an evil. Thing that is done and you should not teach. Like they might have been good or if. Yeah. Like it's not their fault that certain things happen.

[AJ]

There's always a. I think. Yeah, there's a choice. You can choose to turn around and not do those things anymore.

[Graham]

Yes.

[AJ]

But there are many who don't.

[Graham]

Yes. Okay, I'm going to start in on the story.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Graham]

So this is great. This has been really good. Okay, so Beauty and the beast, for 100,000 points, what are the first four words of the story?

[AJ]

Once upon a time.

[Graham]

Once upon a time.

[AJ]

Oh, point Hindenburg.

[Graham]

No, 100,000.

[AJ]

Points.

[Graham]

Inflation has really hit the podcast. One point doesn't buy what it is.

[AJ]

This is great because we're doing a quiz show for my episode next.

[Justin]

I was going to say there was a beast, but I was wrong.

[Graham]

That answer is much funnier, though.

[AJ]

It was so hot.

[Graham]

Once upon a time in a very far off country. This is like classic fairy tale stuff. There lived a merchant who had been so fortunate in all his undertakings that he was enormously rich. As he had, however, six sons and six daughters, he found that his money was not too much to let them all have everything they fancied, as they were accustomed to do. So we got a merchant. He's got 12 kids, he's got six daughters, six sons, and he's.

[AJ]

Well, spoils and rotten.

[Graham]

Well, yeah, he tries to, but the money doesn't go as far as he wants, you know? And unfortunately, one day, this merchant loses all of his ships. So all of the cargo he has, all of the things that he's supposed to make money off of, sink in the ocean. All the money's gone. They have to move. It's not too far. I don't know, it sounded like sense and sensibility of like, they have to move. They have to kind of start a new life for themselves. The main character, whose name, as you might imagine, is Beauty. Beauty, chooses to have a good attitude about this. But all the other. The other daughters do not have a good attitude. The sons are kind of okay with it, but they move to a smaller cottage. They start working the land. They kind of figure things out. They make it work. After a while, news comes that one of the ships has been rediscovered. So one of the merchant's ships that they thought had sunk is actually coming back to harbor. And so all the family gets really excited and they start asking for things. The daughters want dresses and jewels and the sons want, I don't know, swords and. What's it?

[Justin]

IPads.

[Graham]

IPads and drones, cool hats. And so I kind of want a drone too. They go to their dad, and they're like, dad, you need to go take this really dangerous journey to go to where the ship is landing. He's gonna be gone for like six months. They're like, yeah, you should go do that. We're gonna not harvest any of our plants because so much money is coming our way. We don't have to worry about this. You go risk your life to go buy us iPads and cool hats and then come back to us and bring us our money. So 11 of the 12 kids do that, but one doesn't. So the daughter, Beauty, says, all I ask, Father, is for your safe return. All I want is for you to come back safely.

[AJ]

Is her name Belle or just Beauty?

[Graham]

Beauty. And it translated to be just Beauty.

[AJ]

Oh, that makes sense.

[Graham]

So. So Beauty says that the father's, like, deeply moved by this. And he says, but, Beauty, I must get you something. Like, if I'm going to. If I'm getting all this fancy stuff for your siblings, like, please let me get you something. And she says, all I ask for is a rose. All I ask for is that you bring yourself back, but that you come back with a flower as well. The father's happy to do so. Starts on his journey, leaves the house, goes to where the harbor is, where this boat is supposed to be. And it turns out that his co workers, the people for this merchant company, thought that the merchant, that the father had died. And so because they thought that they didn't hold on to any of the money, the ship with the cargo came back. They sold all the stuff, they split it amongst themselves, and then kind of scattered after that. So there's no money, there's nothing for him to collect. So big bummer. So he, the father, then needs to come back to his kids. And so he is, you know, taking a horse. He's coming back and it is super. It's cold, it's snowy. He's have. It's, you know, he's. He's having. I think he has to sleep in a tree at some point, but he's like shivering the whole time. He hears wolves all around him. And he. As he's traveling back, he stumbles upon this area, an avenue of trees which ended in a splendid castle. It seemed to the merchant very strange that no snow had fallen in the avenue, which was entirely composed of orange trees covered with flowers and fruit. When he reached the first court of the castle, he saw before him a flight of steps and went up Them pass through several splendidly furnished rooms. So he walks right in. He walks right in. Trespasses, which is not ideal, but sees this beautiful castle. He's having a rough time on his ride back to his family, so he decides to stop and, you know, trespass.

[Justin]

I feel like this was more common back in. I feel like when you just walk.

[Graham]

Up to a well.

[Justin]

When people travel by foot, when people traveled by horse and by feet, like, I think. I think this was a lot more of a common occurrence and less like, weird than we think it is as modern people.

[Graham]

Because it sounds a little weird.

[Justin]

Justin sounds a little weird, but it's like, I don't know.

[Graham]

So. But he, you know, he's pulling.

[Justin]

Not walking right in the house.

[Graham]

And that's.

[AJ]

If you had guards or something. I mean, you would.

[Graham]

And there's no one.

[AJ]

I would assume that there was a footman in a castle like that.

[Graham]

So in this one, there's no one. In other versions of the story, there are, like, what appear to be living statues. So they look like people, but they're statues. In this one, there's no reference to that.

[Justin]

It's not like a French candlestick.

[Graham]

There's no French candlestick. There's no talking lumiere. That's right. No talking clock. So the father walks in, and he sees a table set with a beautiful meal. And he assumes it's for someone else. Right. Why would he think it's his? And so he. He doesn't eat that food. He kind of finds a place to sit down, but he falls asleep because he's super tired. He wakes up, and there's suddenly a little table set up just in front of him with, like, a separate meal. And he's like, well, this one must be for me. So he chooses to eat that food. He wanders around the castle, doesn't see anyone, which is very strange, doesn't it?

[AJ]

Can we be clear that eating that meal was a mistake?

[Justin]

Yeah. Never eat magic food.

[Graham]

You think so? Yeah.

[AJ]

When you're in enchanted castle, you would.

[Graham]

Not go for that.

[AJ]

Magic food appears in front of you. Oh, you don't touch that. Especially with nobody else in the castle.

[Graham]

Like, you know, they're enchanted. This is funny. Okay. So he eats the food as a rule, wanders the castle. Nothing bad happens. He finds a place to take a nap. He takes a nap. And he does this for a couple days.

[Justin]

Then read the lore. Man, don't do. What are you doing?

[AJ]

Is he getting free food for a couple days?

[Graham]

He's getting free food. He's like, well rested. I want to say it's one or two nights that he sleeps.

[AJ]

In the night, he's gonna wander out of that castle. There'll be like a thousand years have passed or something.

[Graham]

So I would like. That would be a good fairy tale. I like that. But he does eventually realize, hey, I need to go home to my family. So he is walking to go get his horse when he passes by a rose bush, and he says, oh, I need to get my flower for beauty. So he goes over to the bush, plucks a rose immediately. As soon as he does that, sorry, for listeners, you can't see this, but this guy shows up. Is that an elephant? Can you describe what you're looking at right now?

[AJ]

Can you show it more in my direction?

[Graham]

Yeah, sure. Does that help?

[AJ]

It looks like an angry elephant with hands is popping out of the rose bush.

[Justin]

But he's hairy.

[Graham]

He is hairy and he's got tusks. He does have tusks.

[AJ]

Like, it's like a warthog with an elephant nose and ears. Like a cat.

[Graham]

Okay, I was thinking warthog plus elephant. Yeah, that's what. Yeah. So an elihog wearing a jacket, though, kind of jacked. Is that what you'd say?

[Justin]

He was wearing a little jacket.

[AJ]

He's got man hands.

[Graham]

Yeah, he does have man hands, but. So a beast shows up. So again, the illustration here I would compare to again, elephant with giant tusks, but bipedal, so can stand on two legs but dressed in clothes as well. So it's like a gentleman who happens to look like an elephant, A very furry elephant. So this guy pops out of nowhere and yells at the. Is going after the dad who told you that you might gather my roses. Was it not enough that I allowed you to be in my palace and was kind to you? This is the way you show your gratitude by stealing my flowers. But your insolence shall not go unpunished. So the beast is. The food was fine. The food was apparently a gift from this guy who we'll call the beast from here on out. The beast had given the food to the father. That was fine, but taking the flower was the step too far.

[Justin]

I get it, though. I mean, like, you put all that effort.

[Graham]

A lot of guys are passionate. You give and give.

[AJ]

A lot of guys are passionate about their garden.

[Justin]

Is he cutting it in the right spot? Is he doing it right above a bud? Is he just, like, plucking it willy nilly? Like, these are.

[Graham]

These are great questions that I don't have the answer to so understand. Yeah, I'm so sorry. I'll do better. Yeah. So the merchant thinks he's about to get killed. So he's like, he explains his whole life story. Basically. He's like, I'm so sorry I got stuck in this snowstorm, I had to find a place to go, blah, blah, blah. So the beast is, I understand how.

[AJ]

You got to your evil, but it's not an excuse for the evil.

[Graham]

The beast responds exactly that way. The beast is kind of listening and listening and he goes, you know what? I'm willing to let this go. I am willing to forgive you for stealing a flower if you bring back to me one of your daughters to live with me forever. So I will not kill you as long as you bring back one of your daughters to live with me forever. It is super sketchy. And he's also like, she has to come of her own accord. You can't trick her. So you have to tell her she's going to live with the beast. She's going to be here forever, can never see you again. Like you have to tell her what's actually happening. You can't lie to her, which is just a funny. Like this very noble beast is one.

[AJ]

Way to charm a father in law.

[Graham]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, I will be upfront with my intentions to live with her forever.

[Justin]

But the girl that comes is going to be one that like, you know, is going to tough out his beastliness.

[Graham]

Right? Someone who knows what's going on.

[Justin]

So if someone was tricked, then you've got this like girl that's in your house that doesn't want to be there. Yes, but if you get the girl that comes on her own accord, then you've got someone who at least has like a grain of nobility about her because she's doing this to protect her father. Yes, but now you've got a dad.

[AJ]

Who wants to raise an army against you because you've got his daughter.

[Justin]

And the beast is not, he's not in a good spot.

[Graham]

No, this is pretty rough. So there's no real reason given for this other than the trade of the flower for a daughter. But again, we'll talk in the in between. There are some with backstories that say why he has to do why the beast has to do this. But.

[AJ]

And is the dad thinking, Well, I.

[Graham]

Got 12 kind of though. So the father agrees because otherwise he'll get killed. So what are you going to do? And the beast then gives him a horse that's going to go directly to you die.

[Justin]

For your children. That's what you do.

[Graham]

That's the thing. Exactly. Right. Thank you, Graham. So the beast gives this horse to the father, who. It's like a homing missile. It goes directly into the father's house, and in a month, it will bring him directly back to the beast castle. So I don't know. There's all kinds of magic stuff happening. So the father goes back to his house, explains the situation, and immediately all of the daughters blame Beauty. They're all like, this is your fault for asking for a flower. Which is hilarious. It's very funny. Of like, you brought this on us.

[AJ]

Not that creepy old man for wanting someone to live with him.

[Graham]

It's not the beast's fault. It's all Beauty's fault.

[AJ]

And the dad couldn't have invited the beast to. Hey, man, it looks like you're pretty lonely. We got a great little cottage. We could, like, join our house, make this work.

[Graham]

It's also, I mean, like, all the. The 11 other kids had been, like, total rotten, like, asking for spoil. They want to spoil themselves with the wealth that they were supposed to get. But it's Beauty's fault for asking for a flower. It's funny. So Beauty ultimately agrees to go back to the castle, that she will make this trade. She will. To save her father's life. She's willing to lose her own, essentially, to just be with this beast forever. The sons talk about, should we go and attack the castle? Like, should we try and stop this from happening? But ultimately, it's like. Is piety the right word? It's like, Beauty's response is enough that they're like, no, we're going to do this the right way. That the father technically took something. The beast made this deal. Father agreed to it. Beauty's going to be. Is willing to go. That's how we're going to resolve this.

[AJ]

And the economy was weird back then.

[Graham]

Sounds like it. Well, she's going to have, like, fancy meals made for her all the time. So I don't know. And no snow, lots of oranges. Yeah. Doesn't sound bad. Other than the whole. Stuck with the beast. So they agree to that. Beauty and her father go back to see the beast, and the beauty is very scared this entire time because it's a hulking elephant. Warthog man is the person that she's going to a castle of. But she holds on. She. She keeps her fear under control. And she.

[Justin]

It's a common fear amongst arranged marriages, though, right?

[Graham]

Of an elephant warthog man being who you're just being married to some beast. Yeah. Well, yes. And so she goes to his castle. They exchange pleasantries, which is very funny. They'll say good evening to each other.

[AJ]

Is this an arranged marriage story?

[Graham]

Is that what's kind of right where.

[AJ]

This is coming from? Well, to train young women to be okay with arranged marriage?

[Graham]

No.

[Justin]

The ultimate answer is, is that people are made lovable by being loved.

[Graham]

Right. Well, I was gonna. Well, we'll get to the moral because we have our first dream sequence that will lay it all out. There's also, like, a real guy who might have motivated this story. Petrus Gonsalvus, gentleman in the court of Henry II of France. Did this come up in any of your stories? I'm just gonna. Again, this will be one where I'm showing Graham and AJ A picture. So just. I'm gonna show you a picture. I want the first word that comes to your mind when you see this picture. Are you ready?

[AJ]

Oh, a hairy dude.

[Graham]

Hairy dude. You can't say yours. Is that what's happening?

[AJ]

Isn't there a hairy creature in the Addams Family?

[Graham]

Yeah, cousin it. Cousin it. Cousin it. Yeah, cousin it is what I was gonna say. Wolfman. Doesn't that one look like a wolf man?

[Justin]

He's got some. He's got that disease right. Where you're.

[Graham]

So there's a guy with the hairy man disease. So he.

[Justin]

And he was an old woman.

[Graham]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Like, marry some girl. And.

[Graham]

Yes, he's referred to fairy tale.

[AJ]

The poor guy.

[Graham]

I know fairy tale written about him. He's referred to as the man of the woods. He was notable for his unusual hairiness, which attracted attention throughout his life and beyond. It's hypertrichosis.

[AJ]

Yeah.

[Graham]

So he's like the first prominent person of prominence to have this condition. But he looks like a wolf man. He's, like, very hairy on his face. And there is a.

[AJ]

And if any of our listeners have that you are wonderful human beings.

[Graham]

You are a wonderful human being, and I'm glad you're a part of this. Yes.

[AJ]

Nothing wrong with it.

[Graham]

I will not. We will not call you beast. But that it's believed that the marriage between this guy and Lady Catherine may have partially inspired the fairy tale Beauty and the Beast. So there you go. There's a real person. All right, so Beauty decides to go to the castle and is very. She's charming. She's pleasant. Like, she's very kind to the beast. And the beast also is. Like. He's actually kind of respectable. Like, he's. He can. They Talk for an hour. The first time that they meet, like they're. He's not just like a snarling creature. Like it really is just. He's pleasant, maybe is too strong a word. He's a little gruff, but he is able to be spoken with and but just happens to be look like a beast. Super oddly. So that's when Beauty and the beast meet for the first time. And then the beast sends the father back home, presumably as Beauty understands it, never to be seen again. And then after this, Beauty just starts walking around the castle. And most of this book, most of the story is her going room to room, seeing what there is all around. There's a cool room she'll find later that's just filled with well trained birds that all can repeat her name to her.

[AJ]

That's so cool.

[Graham]

So she thinks she's walking across the entire castle to the distant side. She sees this room with the birds and she's like, I wish this was right next to my room. And then she opens the door and it's her room. So this castle is just like moving rooms around all the time anyway, it's very fun. So with that we have a. So the first night that Beauty is there, she goes to sleep and she has a dream. And in the dream she meets two people. The first one she meets is a very handsome looking young prince. I'm showing you all the picture. Very handsome, Very handsome. You can't really tell from this, it's not detailed enough. He's a very handsome man according to the story. So this man tells her. Ah, Beauty, you are not so unfortunate as you suppose. Here you will be rewarded for all you have suffered elsewhere. Your every wish shall be granted. Only try to find me out, the Prince. Only try to find me out, no matter how I may be disguised as I love you dearly. And in making me happy, you will find your own happiness. Be as true hearted as you are beautiful. And we shall have nothing left to wish for. Beauty says, what can I do, Prince, to make you happy? The prince says, only be grateful and do not trust too much in your eyes. And above all, do not desert me until you have saved me from my cruel misery.

[AJ]

Where'd she find this guy? Just wandering on the couch.

[Graham]

He goes to sleep.

[AJ]

Dream.

[Graham]

Okay, dream sequence. So dream sequence. Handsome Prince shows up, says all these wonderful things. Yes, but also only try to find me, no matter how I may be disguised. Wink wink. It's like Beauty is not picking up on these hints, right? So she'll go through this dream and then she wakes up and she's like, I know what's going on. The Beast has imprisoned this beautiful prince, and I need to search around the castle to find him. So she'll go and look room to room. I didn't mention there's a second part to her dream. After she talks to the prince, she finds herself in a room with a stately and beautiful lady who said to her, dear beauty, try not to regret all you have left behind you, for you are destined to a better fate. Only do not let yourself be deceived by appearances. And I'd say that's probably like, that's the line that gets repeated. So if you're looking for the moral, like, do not let yourself be deceived by appearances seems pretty close to what it would be here now, I don't think he's done it at this point. I'm trying to remember. But the Beast will start a habit of Every night they'll have dinner, they'll talk for an hour, and then at the end, the Beast will say, beauty, will you marry me? And he does this on either the first or second night that she's there. So it starts very early forward, that guy. Yeah, Very, very forward. But understandably, she says no each of these times. She continues to dream of this prince every night and wants to find the prince.

[AJ]

He continues to say, don't be deceived by appearances.

[Graham]

Says the same message every single time. She meets with the stately woman as well, does not pick up on what is going on.

[AJ]

It reminds me in the Odyssey, Penelope has a dream that Odysseus is coming back. Well, she dreams that an eagle comes and destroys all the annoying geese in her yard. And then she's like, what could it mean? And then the eagle goes, I'm Odysseus. I'm back and I'm going to kill the suitors. And she wakes up and she's like, what could it be?

[Graham]

What could it be? It's incredible. So, yeah, beauty is not picking up on this. She's wandering around. She finds a library. She finds the room with all the birds I told you about. But then she eventually gets homesick. She's been there for a while. She misses her family. She wants to go back home.

[Justin]

She misses her terrible family.

[Graham]

Who put her up to this? This is funny. So keep that in mind. So she goes to the Beast. She's like, hey, I want to go back and see my family. Just give me two months. Just give me a little bit of time to go back and see my family. And the Beast is like, this may kill me to have you go. I may die from heartbreak, from you leaving. Because he loves her so much. They're getting close, but he's like, if that's what you want, then I will. Yes, you may do that. How can I say no to you? So he sets up, allows her to leave on the magic arrowhorse. Magic arrow horse. That just goes directly back to her house. At this time, she gets a cool ring that will teleport her back to the Beast castle. Isn't that cool?

[AJ]

This is so cool.

[Graham]

This is super cool. So she goes back, and she's actually kind of disappointed, kind of Graham. For the reasons you're like. She goes back, and she kind of feels like she's in the way because everyone's moved on past her. The daughters have boyfriends, and they have a life of their own. The sons are happy to see beauty, but they just all kind of have their life now. And so she stays for the sake of the sons and her dad, who are, again, happy to see her. But she kind of keeps pushing off, going back to the Beast because she. She knows that he said he would die if she, like, actually left, which, you know, she doesn't want to do, but she also doesn't really want to be locked up forever in this castle. And it's like the feeling of coming.

[AJ]

Back to a school when you're an alumni.

[Graham]

Yeah, that's right.

[AJ]

Right.

[Justin]

Like, you're expecting some big, like, hey, everyone, they're back. And it's just sort of like, classes have moved on. Your teachers have new classes.

[AJ]

Like, I don't know any of these kids anymore. I'm not really part of the thing.

[Justin]

Can't go home again.

[Graham]

Yes. And so she is putting off going back to the castle. And another thing that happens is that while she's away from the Beast's castle, she stops dreaming of the prince. So those dreams stop. She misses those dreams. And then also, finally, she sleeps, Has a dream where in the dream, she sees the beast dying, sees the beast on the ground, just has. Has died. Presumably because she has not come back to the castle. Right. That he did. In fact, I think in this version, it is dying of a broken heart. Again, in different versions, it's because of the magic that turned him into a beast, but she sees him dying, and she realizes she cares for him, that she's deeply saddened by the idea of losing this person who maybe previously was a captor, was previously the person who forced her into this position, but who, over time, she has learned to have affection for, has learned to care for. And so this dream makes her realize, I need to get back to the castle. She tells her family, hey, I'm leaving, you know, activates her magic ring, goes to bed, wakes up in the castle. So she teleports back to the castle, which, again, super cool.

[AJ]

That is cool.

[Graham]

She wakes up and she can't find the Beast. She can't find. There's no one there other than the Beast. But she can't find the Beast. And so she.

[AJ]

She would make tons as a getaway driver. Like a bank robber. Could just hand her the sack of cash and she could just disappears right away.

[Graham]

You're thinking this through. I like that. So she gets back, she can't find the Beast, and she's really, really worried. She's running around, she's yelling, she's looking for where the beast could be. And she then kind of stumbles apart the part, stumbles upon the part of the castle that she'd seen in her dream with the Beast laying dead. And so she's like. She's panicking. She's, like, nervous. And then she finds him, quite glad to have found him. She ran up and stroked his head, but to her horror, he did not move or open his eyes. Oh, he is dead and is all my fault, said Beauty, crying bitterly. But then, looking again, she fancied he still breathed. And hastily fetching some water from the nearest fountain, she sprinkled it over his face. And to her great delight, he began to revive. Oh, Beast, how you frightened me. She cried. I never knew how much I loved you until just now, when I feared I was too late to save your life. The Beast says, can you really love such an ugly creature as I am? Ah, Beauty, you have come only in time. I was dying because I thought you had forgotten your promise. But go back now and rest. I shall see you again by and by. So he was about to die. I prefer to read it as like, he was taking a nap and she just threw water on him to wake him up, and everything was actually fine. He's just being, like, dramatic, but he's fine. She wakes him up with water, but has realized there's affection in her that she that hadn't been there before. And so then that night, they have their ritual of. They eat dinner, they have their long conversation, and then the Beast asks, beauty, will you marry me? And she answers softly, yes, dear Beast. And as she spoke, a blaze of light sprang up before the windows of the palace. Fireworks crackled and guns banged and across the avenue of orange trees and letters all made of fireflies was written, long live the prince and his bride. Turning to ask the beast what it could all mean, Beauty found that he had disappeared. And in his place stood her long loved prince. At the same moment, the wheels of a chariot were heard upon the terrace and two ladies entered the room. One of them Beauty recognized as the stately lady she had seen in her dreams. The other was also as grand and queenly that Beauty hardly knew which to greet first. But the one she already knew said to her companion, well, Queen, this is Beauty, who has had the courage to rescue your son from the terrible enchantment. They love one another, and only your consent to their marriage is wanting to make them perfectly happy. I consent with all my heart. Cried the queen. How can I ever thank you enough, charming girl, for having restored my dear son to his natural form? And then she tenderly embraced Beauty and the prince, who had meanwhile been greeting the fairy and receiving her congratulations. Now, said the fairy to Beauty, I suppose you would like me to send for all your brothers and sisters to dance at your wedding. And so she did. And the marriage was celebrated the very next day with the utmost splendor. And Beauty and the prince lived happily ever after. The end. That's how you do a fairy tale, right?

[AJ]

Pretty great. Did they ever talk about what enchantment? Like, how he got into this mess?

[Graham]

That's a different version of the story that I'll say. For the in between, this was the good fairy that just, like, was calling out to Beauty to love the prince. And look past appearance, there's an evil fairy who fell in love with the prince. And then the prince rejected the fairy, rejected her. And so because of that rejection, the fairy cursed him. And then the curse was that you will not be. First off, the curse is you look like a beast, which is a bummer. But then also you will not have this curse broken until you are loved by someone. Until you are loved by someone who loves you for your sake. And so then Beauty breaks that curse by declaring her love for the. For the beast.

[AJ]

That's a weird setup for someone who just got rejected. Like, you're gonna look bad until someone gives you.

[Graham]

Yes.

[AJ]

The thing you wouldn't give me.

[Graham]

Yes. Yes. Because then it's almost like, then your.

[AJ]

Life will be awesome because you got what I didn't get. That's a weird. Because then the form of vengeance.

[Graham]

Yeah. The evil fairy then, like, has to see him fall in love with someone else who love, like, it has a purer love than that evil fairy ever.

[Justin]

I guess the fairy's game was she.

[Graham]

Thought no one ever happened. Yes.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[AJ]

Yeah, that's right.

[Graham]

So that is at least Andrew Lang's version or the one that he collected as a part of the Blue Fairy Book. Blue Fairy Book is the first of the Rainbow Fairy stories. So there are many more after this. And then I meant to say, you know this. If you're ever looking for like original versions of stories, you know, from growing up, the Blue Fairy Book is a good place to start. I'm just looking through table of contents. We have Sleeping Beauty. Sleeping Beauty. We have Cinderella. We have the Tale of Aladdin. Rumpelstiltskin. Beauty and the Beast we just read. There's another Hansel. And there's a version of Hansel and Gretel in here. Snow White. And I'm reading maybe a third of the stories that are in here.

[AJ]

I think Grimm's also has a few of those. Did you know that the glass slippers from Cinderella. Cinderella is. They weren't actually glass. It's a mistranslation from the German or squirrel fur.

[Graham]

Is that true?

[AJ]

Yeah, the word looks like glass. And so it was mistranslated. Who is a glass shoe? That's the worst idea ever. It's going to mess up her foot. But squirrel slippers not going to bring that makes sense. She must have the tiniest feet. Squirrels pelts are not that big.

[Graham]

Put a couple of them together. Right. Okay.

[AJ]

Delicate work.

[Justin]

So is this like, you know, a bachelor living on his own is kind of like unkempt and nasty looking and. And. But he's made beautiful until he's. Until he's loved by like. Until a woman comes and like, like sort of cultivates him or like through, you know, good conversation, he's sort of brought back to the realm of civilized humanity.

[Graham]

Yeah. It's tough because he is actually a decent person even before the transformation. So it really is just he ugly.

[AJ]

And just don't be deceived by appearances.

[Justin]

Yeah, he ugly. I thought so. Isn't the house like it's well kept?

[Graham]

It is well kept. Yeah.

[AJ]

He's Mr. Darcy.

[Graham]

Yeah. Yes. Very wealthy, but kind of. He is reserved. So I guess you get some of that Darcy stuff. He wants to have conversation, but he can't really open up. Like he needs her to initiate that. I think that's per the spell that he's under. But yeah, otherwise he's a decent person. But the Disney version has this. He has done something wrong and he's punished for it. This one doesn't have that. The Lang version, there's no backstory really given. And then even in the. I think it's Villeneuve is the earlier one that has more of the backstory side. It's, again, something happening to him.

[Justin]

Do you prefer knowing a backstory or would you like the enchantment where it's just sort of like this fickleness of the fairies, or do you want a backstory so you can judge whether or not he should or should not get his. His apotheosis?

[Graham]

I don't think it adds a lot. So the original. The Villeneuve version, I think, is a novel. I think it's like 200 pages of beauty and the Beast, which is like, fine, but I don't. I think the 20 page condensed version here gets you all the points. And I think as you winnow it down like that, you also move from it being a story to it being an archetype. And I think that's like. That's what these fairy tales are. There's some, like, truth underneath it. And the more you cut out the extraneous details, the closer you get to what's the underlying reality the story tells you. So I like that by focusing it more and more.

[Justin]

So Belle is beautiful because of her goodness and her purity of heart and her virtue.

[Graham]

That's right.

[Justin]

So I guess. And so living that way is a reward.

[Graham]

And that's. Yeah, the characters, like, their name is literally beauty and beast. And even the dad doesn't get a name, he's just the father. And so that, again, is getting like, sure, you can name them all, give them all backstories, but it's more about. I recognize who these characters are. I've seen people like them before. And I think that's a more. That's more compelling, that's more interesting to read about.

[Justin]

I feel like I was a pretty decent person, but then once loved, I was transformed into a handsome person, a better person.

[Graham]

Yeah. Yeah. Again, we already established you are the beauty of this podcast, so, yeah, that must be it.

[AJ]

My question is, how many princesses did I miss by just being like, ew.

[Justin]

Maybe one of them cursed you.

[Graham]

Yeah, maybe.

[AJ]

Is that why did you just call me ugly? I'm curious. This is how I got this way. This is why we're doing a podcast and not a show, gents.

[Graham]

Yeah. All right. And with that, YouTube is literally right there. Hold on.

[AJ]

But I have a big black thing in front of my face.

[Graham]

That is true. I do laugh about that. Yeah, that's all right.

[AJ]

Well, this has been Classical Stuff. You should know. You can find us on classicalstuff. Or patreon.com classical stuff. You can find us on the tweets at lsscal Stuff. You can go to our website, classicalstuff.net you can reach out to us via email@theboys classicalstuff.net the guys. The guys.

[Graham]

Yep.

[AJ]

The guys@classical stuff.net and I think that's it. So, anyway, love each other, Ciao.

[Graham]

Bye. It.