Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 284: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War"
September 9, 2025
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee

Episode Overview:

In this lively episode, the hosts dive into Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, exploring its themes, historical context, and enduring strategies. The episode is framed as a playful quiz show, where Graeme and Thomas compete for points (and the promise of cake), while A.J. leads with questions and commentary. The conversation moves between summary, analysis, and practical application—with frequent jokes, classroom analogies, and broad comparisons to sports, history, and even board games.

Main Themes and Purpose

• Exploring the insights, tactics, and philosophical approach of Sun Tzu's classic military treatise
• Testing knowledge through a competitive, quiz-style format
• Discussing the pragmatic, adaptive, and deceptive nature of successful strategy
• Relating ancient wisdom to modern contexts—sports, teaching, statecraft, and everyday life

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Sun Tzu? (02:16–05:13)

• Sun Tzu is the legendary author of The Art of War (Bing fa), and possibly a constructed figure, as historical evidence is thin. Some scholars believe “Sun Tzu” may not have existed, but the hosts embrace the legend for its magic and tradition.
• Key Context: Sun Tzu (born around 544 BC, died 496 BC) served under King Helu of Wu during China's Warring States period; his descendant Sun Bin also wrote a treatise by the same name.

“I personally choose to be credulous. I am very much not of the modern scientific mind... If I can leave magic in the world, I will leave magic in the world and not doubt it for no reason.” – A.J. [04:06]

[Notable Moment]

• The infamous story of Sun Tzu training the king’s concubines as soldiers—executing those who disobeyed to prove his iron discipline.

2. The Five Constant Factors of War (07:00–11:57)

Sun Tzu describes five governing elements:

1. Moral Law: Alignment and accord between ruler and men—leadership that inspires unwavering loyalty.
2. Heaven: Environmental factors—seasons, weather, time of day.
3. Earth: Terrain, distances, life/death situations.
4. The Commander’s Virtues: Wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage, strictness.
5. Methods & Discipline: Order, chain of command, supply lines, expenditure control.

“The moral law means you have to be so upright such that your men are in accord with you. So I guess maybe the reason you were going to war is a part of that. But it's not just that—they have to see you as moral.” – A.J. [08:30]

[Memorable Quiz Moment]

The hosts compete for points by defining each factor; the promise of cake raises the stakes.

3. Central Principle: Deception (12:16–14:25)

• All warfare is based on deception: Victory goes to those who mislead, feint, provoke, and attack the unexpected.

“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable... If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him...” – A.J. quoting Sun Tzu [12:34]

• The hosts compare this to Machiavellian thinking and tactics in coaching, sports, and life, drawing analogies to underdog victories, trick plays, and team spirit.

4. The Costs of War & the Folly of Sieges (15:32–17:36)

• Maintaining a 100,000-strong army costs 1,000 ounces of silver daily—a massive toll on a nation.
• Sieges are considered foolish: Prolonged warfare saps state resources, weakens armies, and rarely brings benefit.

“There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. That's interesting, isn't that great.” – A.J. [16:59]

5. Foraging and Rewards (18:16–21:08)

• Stealing from the enemy (foraging) is preferred over using one’s own resources—taking supplies weakens the foe and strengthens your position.
• Rewarding soldiers with captured goods incentivizes performance and loyalty.

6. Supreme Excellence: Victory Without Battle (21:09–28:22)

• The best victory involves breaking resistance without combat; next best is dividing enemy forces or attacking their army in the field—besieging cities is always worst.
• Measurement of Success: True skill shows in effortless, uncelebrated victories.

“Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting...” – A.J. [21:09]

7. Adaptability & Comparison to Water (33:08–34:39)

• Military strategy is likened to water: Go where resistance is weakest, change shape as the situation demands. Tactics must be fluid; adapt to the terrain, circumstances, and enemy.

“Military tactics are like unto water. For water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downward. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak...” – A.J. reading Sun Tzu [34:06]

8. Pragmatism vs. Idealism (34:39–37:32)

• The hosts discuss historical and sports analogies—pragmatists outperform idealists in military and games like Diplomacy, as flexibility and adaptation outmatch rigid plans.
• Diplomacy: A classroom board game becomes a lesson in statecraft and the pain of betrayal.

9. Practical Applications and Tactical Advice (throughout 38:01–69:01)

• Marching Fatigue: Only 10% of troops survive a 30-mile forced march ready for battle (41:34).
• Battle Drums: Used for communication, not just morale (43:12).
• Attack Timing: Strike when the enemy is weary, such as evening; keep your own forces motivated (44:57).
• Cornered Foes: Always give a surrounded enemy an exit—otherwise even cowardly soldiers will fight savagely (46:54).

“If we don't give them an outlet, then they are gonna fight way more savage. Even the cowards in an army will fight savagely if they think they're gonna die.” – A.J. [47:08]

• Terrain: Avoid difficult ground; camp high (51:50); don’t back up against rivers; exploit natural defenses and check woods/grasses for ambushes (52:30–54:30).

10. Leadership: Treat Soldiers as Children, but Insist on Discipline (61:32–63:02)

“If soldiers are punished before they have grown attached to you, they will not prove submissive... But, soldiers must be treated...with humanity, but kept under control by means of iron discipline. This is a certain road to victory.” – A.J. quoting Sun Tzu [61:32]

11. Secrets, Spies, and Deception (69:21–74:04)

• Spies are the ultimate tool of warfare; Sun Tzu concludes by describing five types of spies: local, inward, converted, doomed, and surviving.
• The worst fate is reserved for those who betray secrets or fail in their task—death for oneself and for those informed before the proper time.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the necessity of reward:
  “If you take 10 chariots, you give all 10 to the guy who took the first chariot... The men and resources of taken chariots or taken men are mingled with your own to augment your own strength.” – A.J. [20:16]
• On public recognition:
  “To see victory only when it is within the knowledge of the common herd is not the peak of excellence... To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength. To see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight.” – A.J. [28:15]
• On deception:
  “You should be so mysterious that even your own men kind of don't know what's coming.” – A.J. [65:03]
• On spies:
  “Spies are a most important element in war because on them depends on enemies' ability to move.” – Sun Tzu (quoted by A.J.) [76:09]

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Sun Tzu’s history and legend – 02:16–05:13
• The five constant factors – 07:00–11:57
• All warfare is based on deception (famous quote & discussion) – 12:16–14:25
• The folly of sieges & protracted wars – 15:32–17:36
• Foraging & rewarding soldiers – 18:16–21:08
• Supreme excellence & order of operations in battle – 21:09–28:22
• Military tactics as water – 33:08–34:39
• Ideals vs. pragmatism (teaching, history, sports) – 34:39–37:32
• Tactical quiz & practical lessons – Throughout, esp. 38:01–69:01
• Lead with humanity, enforce discipline – 61:32–63:02
• Spies and the art of deception – 69:21–74:04

Episode Tone & Style

• Humorous and collegial: Constant banter and quips; the episode feels like a friendly competition among “professional nerds.”
• Conversational and accessible: Plenty of analogies to sports, classroom management, and pop culture—making ancient strategy lively and relatable.
• Didactic yet informal: Listeners are guided through Sun Tzu’s main points while enjoying jokes, sidebars, and personal anecdotes.

Conclusion

The hosts close by reiterating Sun Tzu’s recurring lesson: successful strategy is rooted in adaptation, deception, and measured humanity toward one’s own. The Art of War continues to offer timeless insights for leaders, educators, and anyone who faces challenges—on or off the battlefield.

“Sun Tzu: all about deception, Right? Use spies when you can. But be human to your soldiers. But absolutely have an iron will.” – A.J. [75:53]

Final Score: Graeme edges out Thomas, earning both cake and the mantle of most Sun-Tzu-esque.

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