284: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War"

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 284: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War"
September 9, 2025
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee

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Episode Overview:

In this lively episode, the hosts dive into Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, exploring its themes, historical context, and enduring strategies. The episode is framed as a playful quiz show, where Graeme and Thomas compete for points (and the promise of cake), while A.J. leads with questions and commentary. The conversation moves between summary, analysis, and practical application—with frequent jokes, classroom analogies, and broad comparisons to sports, history, and even board games.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Exploring the insights, tactics, and philosophical approach of Sun Tzu's classic military treatise
• Testing knowledge through a competitive, quiz-style format
• Discussing the pragmatic, adaptive, and deceptive nature of successful strategy
• Relating ancient wisdom to modern contexts—sports, teaching, statecraft, and everyday life

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Sun Tzu? (02:16–05:13)

• Sun Tzu is the legendary author of The Art of War (Bing fa), and possibly a constructed figure, as historical evidence is thin. Some scholars believe “Sun Tzu” may not have existed, but the hosts embrace the legend for its magic and tradition.
• Key Context: Sun Tzu (born around 544 BC, died 496 BC) served under King Helu of Wu during China's Warring States period; his descendant Sun Bin also wrote a treatise by the same name.

“I personally choose to be credulous. I am very much not of the modern scientific mind... If I can leave magic in the world, I will leave magic in the world and not doubt it for no reason.” – A.J. [04:06]

[Notable Moment]

• The infamous story of Sun Tzu training the king’s concubines as soldiers—executing those who disobeyed to prove his iron discipline.

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2. The Five Constant Factors of War (07:00–11:57)

Sun Tzu describes five governing elements:

1. Moral Law: Alignment and accord between ruler and men—leadership that inspires unwavering loyalty.
2. Heaven: Environmental factors—seasons, weather, time of day.
3. Earth: Terrain, distances, life/death situations.
4. The Commander’s Virtues: Wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage, strictness.
5. Methods & Discipline: Order, chain of command, supply lines, expenditure control.

“The moral law means you have to be so upright such that your men are in accord with you. So I guess maybe the reason you were going to war is a part of that. But it's not just that—they have to see you as moral.” – A.J. [08:30]

[Memorable Quiz Moment]

The hosts compete for points by defining each factor; the promise of cake raises the stakes.

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3. Central Principle: Deception (12:16–14:25)

• All warfare is based on deception: Victory goes to those who mislead, feint, provoke, and attack the unexpected.

“All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable... If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him...” – A.J. quoting Sun Tzu [12:34]

• The hosts compare this to Machiavellian thinking and tactics in coaching, sports, and life, drawing analogies to underdog victories, trick plays, and team spirit.

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4. The Costs of War & the Folly of Sieges (15:32–17:36)

• Maintaining a 100,000-strong army costs 1,000 ounces of silver daily—a massive toll on a nation.
• Sieges are considered foolish: Prolonged warfare saps state resources, weakens armies, and rarely brings benefit.

“There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. That's interesting, isn't that great.” – A.J. [16:59]

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5. Foraging and Rewards (18:16–21:08)

• Stealing from the enemy (foraging) is preferred over using one’s own resources—taking supplies weakens the foe and strengthens your position.
• Rewarding soldiers with captured goods incentivizes performance and loyalty.

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6. Supreme Excellence: Victory Without Battle (21:09–28:22)

• The best victory involves breaking resistance without combat; next best is dividing enemy forces or attacking their army in the field—besieging cities is always worst.
• Measurement of Success: True skill shows in effortless, uncelebrated victories.

“Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting...” – A.J. [21:09]

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7. Adaptability & Comparison to Water (33:08–34:39)

• Military strategy is likened to water: Go where resistance is weakest, change shape as the situation demands. Tactics must be fluid; adapt to the terrain, circumstances, and enemy.

“Military tactics are like unto water. For water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downward. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak...” – A.J. reading Sun Tzu [34:06]

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8. Pragmatism vs. Idealism (34:39–37:32)

• The hosts discuss historical and sports analogies—pragmatists outperform idealists in military and games like Diplomacy, as flexibility and adaptation outmatch rigid plans.
• Diplomacy: A classroom board game becomes a lesson in statecraft and the pain of betrayal.

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9. Practical Applications and Tactical Advice (throughout 38:01–69:01)

• Marching Fatigue: Only 10% of troops survive a 30-mile forced march ready for battle (41:34).
• Battle Drums: Used for communication, not just morale (43:12).
• Attack Timing: Strike when the enemy is weary, such as evening; keep your own forces motivated (44:57).
• Cornered Foes: Always give a surrounded enemy an exit—otherwise even cowardly soldiers will fight savagely (46:54).

“If we don't give them an outlet, then they are gonna fight way more savage. Even the cowards in an army will fight savagely if they think they're gonna die.” – A.J. [47:08]

• Terrain: Avoid difficult ground; camp high (51:50); don’t back up against rivers; exploit natural defenses and check woods/grasses for ambushes (52:30–54:30).

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10. Leadership: Treat Soldiers as Children, but Insist on Discipline (61:32–63:02)

“If soldiers are punished before they have grown attached to you, they will not prove submissive... But, soldiers must be treated...with humanity, but kept under control by means of iron discipline. This is a certain road to victory.” – A.J. quoting Sun Tzu [61:32]

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11. Secrets, Spies, and Deception (69:21–74:04)

• Spies are the ultimate tool of warfare; Sun Tzu concludes by describing five types of spies: local, inward, converted, doomed, and surviving.
• The worst fate is reserved for those who betray secrets or fail in their task—death for oneself and for those informed before the proper time.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the necessity of reward:
  “If you take 10 chariots, you give all 10 to the guy who took the first chariot... The men and resources of taken chariots or taken men are mingled with your own to augment your own strength.” – A.J. [20:16]
• On public recognition:
  “To see victory only when it is within the knowledge of the common herd is not the peak of excellence... To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength. To see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight.” – A.J. [28:15]
• On deception:
  “You should be so mysterious that even your own men kind of don't know what's coming.” – A.J. [65:03]
• On spies:
  “Spies are a most important element in war because on them depends on enemies' ability to move.” – Sun Tzu (quoted by A.J.) [76:09]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Sun Tzu’s history and legend – 02:16–05:13
• The five constant factors – 07:00–11:57
• All warfare is based on deception (famous quote & discussion) – 12:16–14:25
• The folly of sieges & protracted wars – 15:32–17:36
• Foraging & rewarding soldiers – 18:16–21:08
• Supreme excellence & order of operations in battle – 21:09–28:22
• Military tactics as water – 33:08–34:39
• Ideals vs. pragmatism (teaching, history, sports) – 34:39–37:32
• Tactical quiz & practical lessons – Throughout, esp. 38:01–69:01
• Lead with humanity, enforce discipline – 61:32–63:02
• Spies and the art of deception – 69:21–74:04

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Episode Tone & Style

• Humorous and collegial: Constant banter and quips; the episode feels like a friendly competition among “professional nerds.”
• Conversational and accessible: Plenty of analogies to sports, classroom management, and pop culture—making ancient strategy lively and relatable.
• Didactic yet informal: Listeners are guided through Sun Tzu’s main points while enjoying jokes, sidebars, and personal anecdotes.

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Conclusion

The hosts close by reiterating Sun Tzu’s recurring lesson: successful strategy is rooted in adaptation, deception, and measured humanity toward one’s own. The Art of War continues to offer timeless insights for leaders, educators, and anyone who faces challenges—on or off the battlefield.

“Sun Tzu: all about deception, Right? Use spies when you can. But be human to your soldiers. But absolutely have an iron will.” – A.J. [75:53]

Final Score: Graeme edges out Thomas, earning both cake and the mantle of most Sun-Tzu-esque.

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For more episodes, visit [Classical Stuff You Should Know’s feed].
Contact: [e-mail] | Twitter: @ClassicalStuff

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, this is Classical stuff. You should know. My name is Graham Donaldson, and I'm joined by. With Hello. Hello.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

With AJ Joined by.

[B]

Hello.

[C]

We are not joined together. Joined with.

[A]

I have now decided that you are both my enemies.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Based on this introduction as we started. And I crave a way to outwit you and destroy you.

[B]

Did you say this is a quiz show episode also? Oh, buddy. So we could actually destroy each other.

[A]

On this We Are podcast that delves into ancient books and philosophical texts and the world of classical education. AJ And I are classical educators. We teach at a school. A classical school. Thomas is a classical educator in his own right. And you guys are learning classes.

[C]

Yeah, I'm still a nerd.

[A]

Yeah, we're professional nerds.

[C]

Thomas, he is also a professional nerd. He's doing. He's, like, doing math and managing other mathematicians. That's right.

[A]

But I still want to figure out ways that I can outmaneuver you and subjugate you under my power. So is there a book AJ That I could read?

[C]

Well, lucky for you, there is.

[B]

You really are doing all the kind of, like, manosphere books, right? Because you did the meditations.

[C]

You did Marcus Aurelius.

[A]

AJ doesn't realize.

[C]

Now you're doing Art of War. Like, what is going on? You keep on telling me. I am entirely ignorant of the whole manosphere.

[B]

I have lots of questions.

[C]

I chose it. I'm not gonna lie, because it was short and I had two days to throw something together because I've had a really busy week and I have a busy book.

[A]

Are we gonna have, like, the classical way of, like, negging girls into dating you?

[B]

Is that gonna be our next book? Exactly right. I'm nervous about you, aj.

[C]

Like, your hair looks great for how greasy it is.

[B]

You've done Machiavelli before, too, haven't you?

[A]

I love it.

[B]

You've really done all. Did you do. Who did Machiavelli.

[A]

We do the Bitcoin standard.

[C]

Next. Can you guys, like, send me an email that just has a list of all the Manosphere books? So what to avoid.

[B]

So you can. So you know the next 10 episodes you'll do.

[C]

Is that what.

[B]

You're good. I love that.

[C]

Apparently. Also, all the manosphere books are all short. This thing will take you 45 minutes.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Anyway, so will our episode be longer than it would take to read this book? Is that what's about to happen?

[A]

That's great.

[C]

That's very good.

[A]

I love Quiz Show.

[C]

Luckily, we blow V8 pretty hard, so we we can. We can get some stuff out of it. So let me tell you about the man himself, if there was such a man. So Sun Tzu was the author of Bing fa, or the Art of War. It is the earliest known treatise on war and military science, which is a claim that I saw. And I'm not sure, like, there's got. Isn't there something about war prior to that? There's got to be.

[A]

Well, what years are we talking about? Because Xenophon's got his whole Osiris stuff, right?

[C]

When is Xenophon?

[A]

Ah, he's. I mean, so this is. I mean, Cyrus is after the Assyrian Empire, so, like, we're talking letting the Jews back into Israel, like 370 BC. Three hundred and seventy. Yeah.

[C]

So this is traditionally who. He was born 554B, 544 BC and died in 496.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so still close.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So pretty close. He served under King Helu of Wu during the Warring States period, or just before. His birth name was Sun Wu, and Sun Tzu means master son. It's an honorification. He was posthumously known by his courtesy name, Changwing, which I'm definitely pronouncing wrong.

[B]

This is great.

[C]

One of his descendants, Sun Bin, also wrote a treatise also called the Art of War, and both were referred to by the honorific Sun Tzu in Chinese texts.

[A]

So rotting your dad's coattails.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, he.

[C]

The original Sun Tzu might not have existed because he's legendarily evolved in this really big battle. But a earlier, more complete and detailed text describes that battle and makes no mention of this guy. So he could be kind of an invention that came later, as there was this tradition of battle tactics in his family. May have existed, may not have existed. We don't really know. We do know that Sun Bin, who was one of his descendants, definitely lived. We found his treatise in 1972, and there are parts of it that definitely overlap. So anyway, he may have been a real guy, may not have been a real guy. I personally choose to be credulous. I am very much not of the modern scientific mind, which means that if I can leave magic in the world, I will leave magic in the world and not doubt it for no reason.

[B]

So dude lived.

[C]

So I like to think that Sun Tzu was a real guy. Why not?

[B]

Why not?

[C]

Why not? Why not just let it happen? So there is a story about the original Sun Tzu and him getting his job. So he went up to the king, and the king was sort of trying him Out. And he says, hey, I got a test for you. Why don't you take my concubines and turn them into an army? He goes, okay. So he took a couple of the king's favorite concubines and made them the leaders. And then he gave them some orders. And of course, they all dissolved into a giggle fit, like, just laughing all over the floor. And so he, with permission from the king, executed two of them. Oh, geez. And then they all followed the orders. And then the king was like, okay, you're hired. Yeah. So that's how he got his job.

[A]

He was, how'd you get your job?

[C]

Huh?

[A]

How'd you get your job?

[C]

Very similar.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

A lot of concubines running around. Okay, so he was made king for general for King Hulu. Hilu, not Hulu. He led them to victory against the much larger state of Chu in 506 BC. So underdog defeating the favorite. Much of what we know is about him is from Sima Kwan's records of the Grand Historian. But earlier, more detailed texts ignore him. The name might have actually been a conglomeration that meant the fugitive warrior, which is kind of an invention. So they just like, use his name as a. The warrior says this. Anyway, much of the earliest parts of the text date to after he would have died. Like, they mentioned technology that didn't exist yet, that sort of thing. Anyway, whatever. Let's say he existed. Rock and roll. So today we're doing a quiz show. The chapters aren't always totally cohesive in about one subject. Sometimes they meander a little bit. There are 13, if I'm remembering correctly, 13 different chapters. No, sorry, 12 different chapters. Each is generally about kind of a subject. And not all of. I won't go deep into all of them, but I figured the best way to do this is generally quiz show. And I'm trying not to make it as hard as some quiz shows that I do where I just ask you to come up with something out of nowhere. There will be some of that good, but hopefully I can give you enough to sort of run on. Okay, Chapter one, the Art of War, is governed by five constant factors. I'm going to tell you the names of these factors, and then you will have to tell me what those mean. So factor number one, the Moral Law. Factor two, Heaven. Factor three, Earth. Factor four, the Commander. And factor five, methods and Discipline. So what is meant? This is first quiz show. I got to bring up your points. Hold on.

[B]

Cool.

[C]

And I thought about going to H E B and coming around here. First, but I didn't. So I don't. I don't have a snack for you guys to reward you.

[B]

Have you given us rewards? Have we?

[C]

I have. I thought about buying a cake, giving it to you as rewards. So let's. Let's say it this way. I won't buy it for you now. I didn't buy it prior, but there is a cake on the line.

[B]

Okay. Wow. Okay.

[C]

I will buy you some sort of like tasty frozen dessert or cake type thing. Cookie cake. I can make a cookie cake.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Actually, Graham, better, because then you guys can choose your treatment.

[B]

Okay, good.

[C]

All right. So this is our first quiz show.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

With real something on the.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[C]

Right. All right.

[A]

The moral law.

[C]

Can we wait until after the 15th to cash in on this?

[B]

I mean, now.

[C]

Yeah. A little. Little behind on the budget. Okay, number one, what is meant by the moral law? What does he mean? If that's factor one.

[A]

Wait, all war is dependent on this. What was the.

[C]

So the art of war is governed by five constant factors. Number one is the moral law. What does that mean?

[B]

Like the reason for the combat? Like, you need your warriors to be bought in or you need to be fighting for some just cause.

[C]

Okay. And you can both choose the same one and both get the same points. You don't have to go opposite. Which you have traditionally done in the podcast just to add it for fun.

[B]

Yeah, I think now there's a cake on the line.

[C]

I know.

[A]

I think Thomas is on. Is something that they governed by like the cause that you're fighting for the.

[C]

Yeah, both incorrect. It causes people to be in complete accord with their ruler so they will follow him regardless of their lives and undismayed by danger. So the moral law means you have to be so upright such that your men are in accord with you. So I guess maybe the reason you were going to war is a part of that. But it's not just that they have to see you as moral. Okay, number two. Heaven. What does that signify?

[A]

Weather.

[B]

I was going to.

[A]

Seasons.

[B]

Like literally. Yeah, like seasons. I'll take that. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Night, day, cold, heat. Times and seasons.

[B]

Point.

[C]

Both. Nice work. Okay, number three, what does Earth signify?

[B]

Like the terrain that you're walking on. Right. Like, you must keep in mind where you're fighting and your battle style changes based on that.

[A]

Okay, that was exactly what I was going to say. Like grasslands and mountains and all that kind of stuff.

[C]

Great job. Let's go.

[B]

Tide. Two. Two. Okay.

[C]

So it signifies distances small and great danger. Insecurity open ground and narrow passes. Chances of life and death.

[B]

Okay, Right.

[C]

So pretty good. You said like, the terrain where you are. Yes. So seasons, night and day. So what. What the heavens sort of do. And then also what's going on on the ground. So you got to have your men in accord with you, be chill with the seasons and chill with the ground.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And then number four, the commander. Now, I'm not just gonna leave that open. It is virtues that he is concerned with here. So the virtues of a commander. Can you name those virtues?

[A]

How many are there?

[C]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So five virtues. And you have to, like, sort of jump out of the classical seven that we know. I'm giving you a small hint there. Some of those might show up there, but not all of them.

[A]

So I'm gonna say temperance, not too hot, not too cold.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I'm gonna say some sort of, like, practical wisdom, like a prudence, the ability to make good decisions. Okay, I'm going to say. Let's start there. I'm just gonna say those two.

[C]

One point for Graham.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

Not gonna say which, Thomas.

[B]

I'll take, like, a courage, like a bravery up in front of the men, that kind of thing. And then like a justice, like they are fair or they're viewed as fair. Okay, I'll just take those two right now.

[C]

One point, Thomas.

[A]

I'll take it.

[C]

Okay, so I'll give you the list. Wisdom. So you got one for practical wisdom, Graham. Sincerity, benevolence, courage. That was your point. And strictness.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Which is a weird thing to kind.

[B]

Of point out as a virtue. Yeah.

[C]

Okay, the last one is method and.

[A]

Does feel very, like Chinese, you know, like. Like the idea of, like, stringence and.

[C]

Yeah, well, he'll talk about that more at length later. So number five. Method and discipline. Which specific methods and disciplines are under this heading? This one's kind of tough.

[B]

Which one? Wow. Methods and Disciplines.

[C]

Method and Discipline.

[B]

He just gives a list of them. Yeah, I don't even know what to call that. Like, this is a hard one. Morning jogs. Like, what do you.

[C]

Okay, so I'll just give you this one. This will be a pass. There's plenty of questions, so we're not.

[A]

Going to hurt working until you.

[C]

Before you eat, the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, Graduations of rank among officers, maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and control of military expenditure. So I'm also going to be reading some quotes. The most famous quote, probably from this book, is from this first chapter.

[B]

So these are short books that people only read the first chapters of. Is that what that means?

[C]

Probably, but this is a pretty strong quote. Okay, so one verse 18. All warfare is based on. Any guesses? I can give you a point here.

[B]

But warfare is based on. It's a fun one mindset. I don't know.

[A]

Like the lack of something both.

[C]

Wrong. It is deception.

[A]

I did know that.

[C]

I just realized that this is kind of a fun quiz show because at the end we can figure out who would kill the other one in a battle to the death.

[B]

It'd be Graham, right? Yeah.

[C]

So let me read this to you. All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable. When using our forces, we must seem inactive. When we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away. And when far away, we must make them believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy, feign disorder and crush him. If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. Attack him where he is unprepared and appear where you are not expected. These military devices leading to victory must not be divulged beforehand. The general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. Fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory and few calculations to defeat. How much more? No calculation at all. It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or to lose. Any thoughts?

[B]

I like it. I mean, it is interesting. It's like I'm just hearing Machiavelli as you're going through this. Like, that's the thought in my mind of we're here to trick other people. It's one of those, like, this is a practical guide how to accomplish something. Not necessarily like a right or good way to do war, but an effective way to accomplish it.

[A]

One of the reasons I love sports is because I love the storylines where you have teams that, like, have no payroll or are clearly the underdog, but they figure out ways to beat the superior opponent using principles like that deception or laying traps in the game or.

[C]

Having trick plays.

[A]

True or just better esprit de cor. Right. Like they have. They're just united in their ability to do X, Y, or Z and win the game. Whereas like the, the. The team that's got all these like high paid, you know, me first kind of players. Never. They don't play as a team and they're not ill disciplined in this kind of stuff. Like I. I find that endlessly fascinating of how coaches and managers and organizations can marshal that, you know, can lead sort of people into that kind of thing that actually wins against greater odds. And it's. It's exactly what this is talking about. It doesn't end in like the wholesale slaughter of groups of people. Yes, that's great too.

[C]

So classic. Well, hopefully this doesn't either. Classical Mighty Ducks ethos.

[A]

Right, That's. Well, I know what the trick plays. You know, the flying V and everything.

[B]

But.

[C]

No, you've got the knuckle puck and you got like. There's all kinds of stuff in there.

[A]

Yeah, but Casey's the heart of the team.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And you have to defeat all the kids who wear black and look evil.

[A]

Yeah. And they who are, if I'm remembering Mighty Ducks too correctly, the like amazing team from Iceland. Yeah, it's Iceland. But they don't have like Iceland doesn't have a hockey.

[C]

It's not worth winning if you can't win big. All right, Chapter two, subheading costs. How much silver does it cost to raise an army of 100,000 men per day?

[B]

I have no.

[C]

This is tough because you guys don't often reckon in silver.

[B]

It gets. So it's pieces of silver. Like what's the ounces. Ounces, Ounces.

[C]

How many ounces of silver a day? 100,000 does it cost to keep an army of 100,000 men going?

[A]

10,000 ounces of silver.

[B]

A thousand point.

[C]

Thomas got it right on the money.

[B]

Really? Wow. Okay.

[C]

A thousand pieces. Ounces of silver per day. Considering the cost that it costs to raise an army like this, which tactic is generally considered by Sun Tzu to be very stupid.

[B]

Raising a big army.

[C]

Okay. Invasion, sieges, laying siege. To quote, when you engage in actual fighting, if a victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again. If the campaign is protracted, the resources of the state will not be equal to the strain. I got a lot.

[A]

Dan. There's a cake on the line.

[C]

Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been associated with long delays. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. That's interesting, isn't that great.

[B]

So he doesn't. Yeah, war should be quick.

[C]

And he's not a siege guy. And siege is so often used in war, which is crazy to me. But he would rather. I don't think there's a question about this later, but he would rather. Like, if you are in a town, why attack it? I'm just gonna waste my guy's strength. I'm gonna have them get frustrated. My general's gonna get bored. Better to go attack something else that he needs and is now undefended and draw him out of the city than it is to try to break in. You will eventually take the town, but you will have wasted your army doing it. Makes sense. And your country, which is wild to me that that was such a common tactic all the way through the medieval period.

[A]

Not a fan of Vietnam. Sun Tzu Long prolonged wars.

[C]

Well, clearly we all benefited from that one.

[B]

Graham's thinking about it.

[C]

I was actually wondering about if prolonged warfare is now a money maker for big countries. I think it depends if you're successful or not. But even then, it may be much better to just take the enemy country in one fell swoop and have no harm to your.

[A]

You're still. No. I mean, someone's making money who's like selling all those missiles, right? Not necessarily the country, but someone's also spending it. Yeah, I still think a week. Yeah, I think he's on.

[C]

He's.

[A]

He's correct.

[C]

Okay. Again, considering costs, one tactic is incredibly helpful. Hint. The Spartans were famously trained in it. One tactic, One specific military tactic is incredibly helpful. The Spartans were famously trained in that tactic.

[A]

Like stealing stuff from your enemies as you go through their towns.

[B]

Okay, I have no. No guesses for this.

[C]

One point, Graham.

[B]

Cool.

[C]

It is stealing, foraging from the enemy. Interesting, right? If I could try to get it from my own country. They're paying taxes. I will impoverish my nation. Even just having an army nearby means all the prices go up and then the peasants have to spend all their money. And I've impoverished the town just by having my army there. So it is way better. He says, like stealing one wagon load of their supplies is equivalent to 10 wagon loads from your own country. Like it is. You impoverish them. You enhance yourself and you don't waste the supplies of your own country. So you. You gotta steal from the enemy, which I love.

[B]

The Spartans did that too.

[C]

Yes. They were trained even as children, to steal. They only got in trouble if they were caught.

[B]

That's funny.

[C]

And people point to that as a evidence of relativism. They're like, they all have to. Well, there's a value there. It's yes, we have to protect our country. He said that raising such a large army, 100,000 disrupts the work of 700,000 families because the men are gone and the like businesses are down. And like all these reasons, it ends up being 40% of the whole revenue of the state in paying for the war. Anyway. That's fun. Okay, so another fun quote is a fill in the blank. In order to kill the enemy, our men must be blank. That there be advantage from defeating the enemy. They must be blank. So two possible points. In order to kill the enemy, men must be blank. That there be advantage from defeating them. They must be blank.

[B]

I was trying to think like it's like ruthless in the first one, like merciful in the second, but I'm not sure that really. I'll go with that.

[A]

They must be well fed and advantage in killing them. They must be kind of hungry.

[C]

Okay, I think I'm going to give one point to Thomas for the wrath. So the men must be roused to anger. Right? We must make them wrathful that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy. They must have their rewards. He's actually very big on this. So if you take 10 chariots, you give all 10 to the guy who took the first chariot, Right? Because he took the biggest risk. The men and resources of taken chariots or taken men are mingled with your own to augment your own strength. And any taken warriors, again, treated well, treated nice, and if they join you, that's great. So he is in like. Again, it's a. It's a cost thing. So take in all of that stuff, give it as rewards to your men and mingle it with your own supplies if you. If you can possibly do it. Which is great. Like, totally makes sense. Okay, chapter three is on speed. Right now the score is five to four, Thomas. So it's close.

[B]

It's close.

[C]

But right now he's in the lead by one point for the kick. He says more about how much sieges suck at the beginning of three. He says in the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact. To shatter and destroy it is not so good. So too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it. To capture a regiment, a detachment, or a company entire than to destroy them. Hence, to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence. Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting so again, his idea is not to slaughter everybody. He's like, it's great if we can just not fight. If we can break their will and come in and nobody dies. Awesome. He says, thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans. The next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces. So don't even let them come together. The next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field. And the worst policy of all is. Is to besiege walled cities. It's going to take up months. It's a whole three months. It's just. He just is not a fan of it. He says the general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to assault like swarming ants, with the result that one third of his men are slain while the town remains untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege. Okay, here's a. A good one. It's a fill in the blank, but it should be a little bit easier than the last one. It is the rule of war. If our forces are 10 to the enemy's 1, we surround him. If 5 to 1, we blank. And if 2, and if it's 2 to 1, we're twice as numerous, we do blank. So any guesses on those two blanks? Two points available.

[A]

Ten to one, we surround them.

[C]

Five to one. Blank. Twice as numerous blank.

[A]

Five to one, we engage him head on. Okay, two to one, we feign retreat. So he follows us and then we attack him.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. The two to one is evade. Like. Yeah, avoid the fight. Five to one. I don't have a better answer than head on.

[C]

Are you gonna agree? Head on. One point for each. Head on is the correct answer. So the actual quote. It is the rule in war that if our forces are 10 to the enemy's 1 to surround him. If 5 to 1, attack him. If twice as numerous, divide our army into two. So like, one has the threat of meeting the field, and I assume with the other one he can go and attack another place that is now completely undefended. Which makes sense, right? I can waylay him here and then go attack over there. Much to my benefit. Take a bunch of resources. That seems smart.

[A]

Or it's like with the one to one, you can kind of like hunker down and hold them off, and then the rest of your army is going and like, harassing something, causing all kinds of problems.

[C]

Yeah, love that. Okay. There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his own army. These are these Are little fill in the blanks. Commanding the army to advance or retreat and being ignorant of the fact that it blank. This is called hobbling the army. So if we command him to advance a retreat, ignorant of the fact that something. By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom and being ignorant of the conditions which obtain an army, this causes blank. By employing the officers of his army without discrimination through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances, this shakes the blank. So number one, commanding the army to advance a retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it blank. This is called hobbling the army.

[B]

Hobbling because you're weakening them somehow. So it's like ignorant of whether they. Their condition. Ignorant of whether or not they are in a condition to advance or retreat.

[A]

That's right. They have enough food, enough supplies. They don't have enough of that stuff. You're moving them around.

[C]

Ooh, Point each. Nice job, gents. It is. Cannot obey. Like if they can't actually do what you're saying, it doesn't matter what you command. So don't do that. All right, next one. By attempting to govern an army in the way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army, this causes blank.

[B]

Like disrespect or like revolt feels too. It's like this causes. Yeah. Dissension in the ranks.

[A]

I was going to say more confusion.

[C]

Okay, point, Thomas. Restlessness in the soldiers minds. I think that that's. That's fair. Makes them restless. Right. If you're. If you're trying to run it like a country. This isn't a country. This is wartime. And so it makes them like a little restless. And third, by employing the officers of his army without discrimination through the ignorance of the military principle's adaptation to circumstances, this shakes the what?

[A]

Resolve? Morale?

[B]

Confidence.

[C]

It is confidence. It is actually confidence. I was gonna give you one for resolve or morale. Yeah, yeah. Resolve.

[B]

You should give it to Grant.

[C]

That's a point.

[B]

Both. Point. Both. My point is worth more in that situation. But you got the right word.

[C]

Yeah. Cool.

[B]

Thanks.

[C]

Yeah, More respect.

[B]

Cool, thanks.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Shaking my resolve.

[C]

Sorry. All right, Chapter four. I'm just going to read a couple of quotes here. 4.1. Sun Tzu said the good fighters of old put first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the army or the enemy. So they. It's not so much like just go out there and start rustling them up first. Make it so that you can't be broken wherever you are. And then wait for the enemy to make a mistake. There's so much in this about knowing when opportunities present themselves, knowing how to take advantage of those opportunities, and then creating those opportunities by fooling the enemy into thinking that you are not where you are supposed to be. I love the notion that all warfare is based on deceit. Like, there is none of this. I will see you in the field tomorrow. If you say that you better be showing up at his house and not on the field tomorrow. That is definitely not what you're doing. And he even, like, if I show up, I better pretend that I am weak when I'm not weak and be strong. Or pretend that I don't have soldiers off there to the right when I actually do have soldiers off there to the right. Or that I'm angry when I'm actually completely calm. Right. Everything is deceit. And he talks about how you have to be flowing like water. And he even mentions there's not certain tactics that will apply in all situations. Right? It is. You have to adapt yourself to the moment and be willing to strike even if you are weak in another spot. So he's. It's cool. Okay. He also talks about why being popular is not so good in 4, 8, 12. Okay. To see victory only when it is within the knowledge of the common herd is not the peak of excellence. Neither is it the peak of excellence if you fight and conquer. And the whole empire says, well done. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength. To see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight. To hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear. What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels at winning with ease. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor. Nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty for victory. For it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated. So.

[A]

So if you had like a 10 to 1 odds and you just like ground out a victory of attrition, you shouldn't be given like praise and laurels.

[C]

Yeah. And if people are praising you and giving you laurels you like. No. Nobody's super stoked when you're like, yeah, we absolutely obliterated the enemy force with no casualties. Right. Everyone's like, ah, great, good job. He's like, that's what it should be. You should have no situation in which the enemy go, there are your. Your populace goes mad with adoration for you because you did such an Amazing thing. You should win with no trouble at all. That's. That is a good commander, which is great. Yeah, I think that's smart. Chapter five. We are mostly going to skip. It's mostly. Mostly about how you need to feign chaos, timidity and weakness. And then really marshaling your men in the opposite. And this is what requires strength. So he says leading many men is the same as leading only a few if you use your energies in the right ways. He says alternate between direct and indirect tactics. Always fit them to the situation. Just like there are only five notes in music. Apparently there's infinite songs. So the same thing with the methods of attack, right? Direct, indirect, but knowing when to apply them and where. Like to meet them or to feign and disappear. All of that is fit to the situation. Okay, fill in the blank. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack blank. You can ensure the safety of your defense by only holding positions that blank. So once more. You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you attack blank. And you can ensure the safety of your defense by only holding positions that blank.

[A]

You want to go first, Thomas? No, you can only. You can be assured of a success if you attacked the enemy's weakest spot.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And you can be. Well, can you read the second part?

[C]

You can ensure the safety of your defense by only holding positions that blank.

[A]

Only holding positions that are naturally defensible.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Defensible was my word for the second one. Tell me the. What's the word? You can ensure the what for the first.

[C]

You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack blank.

[B]

Succeeding? Like I don't even.

[A]

I have another answer.

[C]

What's your other answer?

[A]

Just like. Like by surprise or by. In. You know, indirectly and. Yeah, yeah. Like surreptitiously.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And their weakest spot.

[B]

Well, that was your first answer. Yeah. Say one. One more time for the first one. This is my last one.

[C]

Succeeding in your attacks if you only attack indirectly. Yeah, I'll give you the answer for that one. And then you can change your answers for the second. Places which are undefended.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So if they. If there ain't no army. There we go. We get spot. I think I can give one for weakest spot. Is that what you said too?

[B]

No, I didn't. No.

[C]

Okay, so point for Graham. It is 7 to 8 in favor of Thomas. It's close. The cake is still on the line, Jen.

[A]

Close. I'm still going to. I'm going to keep my defense that are that are defensible. That's going to be me. I'm still going to say that answer.

[C]

You can ensure the safety of your defense by only holding positions that blank.

[B]

By only holding positions that are blank.

[A]

Have no weakness.

[B]

Only holding. Yeah, Naturally. Defensible. I'd still.

[C]

Yeah, Both. You're correct. It's cannot be attacked.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like if they literally can't attack it, then you're sure of your defense. Right. Okay, I'll. I can give you a both points. Just so our points sound more impressive. More impressive. Okay. He says, attack places which the enemy must hasten to defend and march swiftly to places where you are not expected. So I would think of as an example, if I was at war with a country who maybe didn't have a strong naval presence and it really wasn't a naval battle, I could attack their ports because even though they don't really have a navy, they are still going to have to be a country after this. And trade depends on ports. And so they have to rush to defend that thing. Even though they might not have even been thinking about their ports. Now all of a sudden, their army is distracted and has to run to the defense of the ports. And as they're doing that, I can maybe bring my army somewhere else. Right. Then march swiftly to a place where it's not expected. Go and attack that thing. And I will this way, keep them constantly on the run from place to place, tire them out, and do much damage to them and their country at the same process. So don't figure out where they are and then go attack that town, attack their ports, attack their farms, go burn their granaries. Something that they have to go defend fast and then disappear. It's great. He says, hence, that general is skillful in attack, whose opponents do not know what to defend, and he is skillful in defense, whose opponents do not know what to attack. So they don't really know where to put their armies because they don't really know where you are going to be next. And they don't know what to attack because they don't know what's important. Right. Which is exactly how you want it. Okay. Of all of the elements war is like, which the most? So the four elements. So like fire, wind, water, earth. What is war most like?

[A]

I'm gonna. Oh, you go first.

[B]

Fire. Right.

[A]

I'm gonna say water.

[C]

Point Graham. That ties it up. It is most like water. Let me read it to you. So I'm using my Kindle, so I can't just jump straight there. Okay. 6.29. Let me go read the verse. Okay. Military tactics are like unto water. For water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens down from high places and hastens downward. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows. The soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe that he is attacking or facing. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning may be called a heaven born Captain.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

The five elements. Water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. I love how their elements are a little bit different than Greece are not always equally predominant. The four seasons make way for each other in turn. There are short days and long. The moon has its periods of waning, waxing, and that's the end of the chapter. But it's most like water because you head towards the weakest place or the lowest place. Right. So instead of finding out where they're strong and going and fighting, that you just go towards the easiest. And that makes sense. Okay, any. Any general comments so far about Sun Tzu's Art of War?

[A]

It's very pragmatic, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I was thinking. I've been thinking of. I don't know if it's enough for an episode, but I really find the. Because we're reading Cyrus in the government class, I really find the. The tension in history between idealists and people that have like a set philosophy on how something should be versus pragmatists and people who say, like, okay, here's what we got. How do we achieve what we want based on the present conditions? I find that tends to be really fascinating. And, and this feels. And it feels like warfare is always very pragmatic. Like, you can't be an idealist. You can't have a, like an idealism about how an army should work or how an army should fight or like the best kinds of tactics. If you do, you're going to be run over. Like, you, like. Oh yeah, the pragmatist. The person who. Maybe you can be idealist in terms of your strategy, but in terms of your tactics. You need to have that sort of flexibility of tactics to. To move against, you know, to. To go, you know, to. To deal with like the landscape. Like, I remember so reading these Civil War books, you know, like McClellan, you know, was the general who sort of the failed general of the. Of the. Of The North. Like, everybody touted him as being, like, really good at being of, like, running an army, but really bad at, like, knowing how to use it. Like, he was really.

[C]

His men were like, all buttoned up. All buttoned up.

[A]

Supplies were well drilled. And like, if, if the wars were fought on, like, on like, you know, grass plains, he would have won. But because they're fought in some sort of constraints that require creativity and require like a flexible thinking, he just couldn't do it because there was like, you're flipping through the textbook to be like, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And. And then you, you, you get beat by somebody that's quite pragmatic with a, With a lesser force.

[C]

Yeah. You're thinking about how to bring your cavalry up on the right side of their flank and they're currently burning your granaries. Right. Like, and so you can't feed your troops.

[A]

Exactly. Or. And this is. People, long time listeners to the podcast know. I love, I love soccer. And one of the reasons is for this is because it is a very tactical game where you have different kinds of systems, possession versus direct attack, that are, that are playing against each other. And you have these idealistic coaches that say, we are going to only play this way and can be quite successful. And you have pragmatic coaches that are.

[C]

Saying, like, who are we playing this week?

[A]

Who are we playing this week? And we're gonna change it. And we're also gonna be a little dirty and we're gonna step on your feet and we're going to, you know, we're gonna get in, we're gonna find like, the, the most timid player on the pitch, and we're gonna put our big guy to mark him and like, scare him. And so he, like, messes up and passes the ball wrong.

[C]

Then we're gonna, like, flop a little bit. Yeah.

[A]

And so I, I find that endlessly fascinating.

[C]

Yeah. It reminds me of the Revolutionary War where the Brits came over and they were all, all like used to this big plane warfare where everyone meets and it's all like, shake hands. And then we will stand there and run like, and just shoot at each other. And then we were doing guerrilla warfare, and so they'd be marching and we would like, jump out of the trees. And they're like, what is this nonsense? Like, you know what I mean? So it's. Yeah. So we play this game in thesis class called Diplomacy in our school. And it is the wildest study of exactly this thing. Right. Because you have kids who Are idealists diplomacy.

[B]

Like it's a board game. Like it's a.

[C]

It's a board game. It's like risk. But there are. There's no chance, there's no dice, there are no turns and you do not have enough pieces to do what you want to on your own. You have to talk to other people. And if you lose, it's because you suck. Everything happens at once. All the orders are turned into the same time. And if you get double crossed because you didn't see it coming, and if you don't, if you fail to take a position, it's because you didn't have the tactics to do it. It is a. An awesome case study in like rhetoric and tactics and, and statecraft because. And it's like the first kids first taste of it. Because you have to double cross. At some point if you want to take over the whole of Europe, you're going to have to backstab your buddy. The question is when you do it right. And so there's some people who are like, I will not. I will take this to the end and me and this person will win together. And then of course they get bad stabbed and they lose. It is always the idealists who get smoked and then the pragmatists who bribe me with cookies and get everybody's information and then win the game. So I like it. It's. Anyway, it's really fun. So moving on. Next. Next question. If your goal is to get to a target before the enemy that is distant, you should one, send none of your army. Two, send a speedy column from your army with few provisions. Or three, send the whole army marching day and night. So send a fast portion, none or all of your army.

[B]

The goal is to get somewhere as.

[C]

Quickly as possible to get to arrive somewhere before the enemy.

[B]

It has. So I know it's not the right answer, but it has to be the fast one because. Yeah, I'm gonna. Yeah, the first. When you gave the three options there, it was your first one. Send a small group that's very fast to go there as quickly as possible.

[A]

Yeah. Cause if they go there and they're there and then the other army is showing up and they see some troops, they may think, oh, the entire army's there, we lost. Let's pump the brakes and figure out what to do next. But if they call your bluff on that, they're just going to butcher your tiny group of men. And then. So I'm going to go. I'm just. In terms of trying to get the points, I'M going to say send your whole army.

[C]

Neither. You probably don't want to send anybody. It's just a bad idea.

[B]

How do you get there faster if you don't send anyone?

[C]

I think for Sun Tzu, it's. He would say it's probably better to maybe lose the position than it is to lose your army.

[B]

Interesting, right? Yeah.

[C]

And so here, follow up question. What can you expect if you have to. And there are times when I think you have to, like you are going to have to send men.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I think you would prefer not to. Because if you send the column, like they're going to get in trouble. And I think that what you predicted is right. Right. If they get caught, they're toast.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So what can you expect if you have to dismantle, dispatch men speedily marching at the following distances. And he gives it in Chinese, Li. But I have translated that to miles.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Generally, so 30 miles. You dispatch men speedily. What happens? So you send. You send your whole. This is you send your whole army. Send your whole army 30 miles. What can you expect?

[B]

The numbers go up from here, they.

[C]

Go down from here.

[B]

So this is the worst situation.

[C]

It's. I mean, like it's terrain in China. 30 mil. 30 miles could be like mountainous and rough.

[A]

What can you expect? You can expect to have no fighting army at the end of 30 miles. Destruction of your army or just absolute exhaustion. They get there and you need to like have a weekend, a long weekend.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

To rest and react. Recoup.

[C]

Got it. Let me phrase it this way. How much of your army will reach the destination?

[B]

Oh my God.

[C]

In fighting trim, 0.

[B]

10.

[A]

You got like some hardcore. You got like some, some hardcore dudes in there.

[C]

Thomas got it with 10%. Was it nine to nine?

[B]

It was, it was just tied your.

[C]

10 to nine now. Okay, what about 15 miles? How much of your army will arrive?

[B]

Does he actually give percentages?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Okay, so for the three miles, he says you have your strong ones who are in front. They will show up fast. The weak ones will be behind. And so you'll get 110 of your army there on time. Right. Because it's only the fast guys. And then the rest of the 90% are back there like dragon wagons.

[B]

So the next one's 15 miles.

[C]

15 miles. Half the distance.

[B]

30%.

[A]

I was gonna say half.

[C]

50% point Donaldson. There it is. Let's go. It is tied. Let's go. The cake can go to either.

[B]

Either way.

[C]

Okay. He says you'll lose the leader of your first division. Only half of your force will reach the goal because those little guys will get there first. They'll probably get killed, and then the rest of your half your army will show up. What, about 10 miles? How much will arrive in a day? Yep. Marching fast.

[A]

10 miles in a march. Well, I feel like we did that. Well, I'm gonna say 15.

[C]

We got.

[A]

I say 90%.

[B]

I'll take 80. I'll take the low.

[C]

It is 2/3. 66 point, Thomas. Or maybe no points. I feel like closest was Thomas. Okay, I feel like I'm gonna skip this one. I'll just tell you. You can't enter into an alliance with anyone until you know their designs, their plans, like, what they want. So until you know what they want, you can't get in there.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

What is the purpose of a battle drum? Why do we have drums in warfare?

[B]

To pace the army. Right. So that they don't go too fast. You don't want them to wear themselves out. So you're setting a manageable pace.

[A]

The communication, the different beats are required for, like, the different regiments.

[C]

It is tied again.

[B]

Let's go.

[C]

Point, Graham, let's go. It's for communication, right? I never knew this before. I always thought it was just to, like, play some music while we march. No, no, no, it's not that. It's because voices don't carry far on the battlefield. People are screaming, and if you want to actually, like, sound things out, especially at night, you need battle drums to tell you, like, to communicate what's happening. And signal fires in the evening and then flags during the daytime.

[A]

Yeah, it's like play calling in football.

[C]

Exactly. So I, like, I could even have my regiments know exactly what drum riffs we use. Like, ba Doom. Psst. Would be, you know, like, run to the right and then that could be, like, run to the left. And those all can be code, which is super fun because now the enemy doesn't know what we're doing. But I could communicate it with drums. This was totally revolutionary to me. Maybe I'm more excited about it than you guys are, but I never knew that that was the point of battle drums.

[B]

That's fun.

[C]

Isn't that cool?

[B]

That is very cool.

[C]

Okay. When is a soldier most keen to fight? His attitude. When does he, like. At what time is he in fighting trim?

[A]

First thing in the morning and he's well fed.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Feel like I had right after lunch, I don't know, early afternoon.

[C]

When do you actually, like. Are you just taking an opposite position?

[B]

I would take the same as his it's the early morning.

[C]

All right, Point. Just take. You can get a cake is on the. It's more interesting.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

Well, I'll tell you the other options. So in the.

[A]

Were we right?

[C]

You are both correct. It is early in the morning. So morning, he's ready to fight. At noon, he is kind of getting tired, and he's getting, you know, a little less keen to fight. And then at the end of the evening, he just wants to go home. Like, he wants to go home. So in light of that information, when should you attack?

[B]

Early afternoon.

[A]

You should attack the enemy in the evening. If you can get your troops fired up. If you can get your guys fired up, you should attack the enemy, like, right after lunch. Because the enemy is, like, getting. They're gonna be unmotivated.

[C]

Evening is correct. Point, Graham. So if you can actually fire up your guys and attack the enemy when all they want to do is go home, that is ideal.

[A]

I feel like I'm starting to think, like, sunset.

[C]

It's all deception. So, like. Yeah, wait until the. The enemy is like, I want to go to sleep. And then, like, get on him and mess them up. Okay. If an army is returning home, they're all going home. What do you do?

[B]

An army is returning. So if my army is returning home.

[C]

If the opponent army is returning home, let them. Okay.

[A]

Harass them with your cavalry, because they're going to think, like, I'm in my homeland and my guard is down.

[C]

Point, Thomas. Not only are they going home, which is great, but it could be a trap, right? It could be a feint, and then you've run your guys right into their territory. You followed where they guided you. And that's probably a bad idea. All right, here's a weird one.

[A]

Feel ashamed.

[C]

I feel like, you guys, this is an impossible question, so I'll just. I'll just answer for you. When you surround an army, what's one thing you should be sure to do? I'll let you take a crack at it. But, like, it's. It's a really hard question.

[A]

Permit them to surrender.

[B]

What should you be sure to do? Eat a big breakfast.

[C]

Okay. I think Graham actually kind of got it. Okay. It's.

[A]

Give him an out.

[C]

Give him an outlet.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Why?

[A]

Because men that have no outlet are gonna fight to the very last bloody. Like, they're gonna fight into the death. And that's. That actually is gonna be bad for you. So you need to give them an outlet.

[C]

Well, it's like Sun Tzu is sitting Right here. That's exactly.

[A]

This is the one I remember.

[B]

Sun Tzu gets a cake.

[C]

Yeah. So if we don't give them an outlet, then they are gonna fight way more savage.

[A]

The best part is that you can choose where that outlet is so you can send them off into, like, a barren landscape of no breakfast. And then you know.

[C]

Exactly. And those. And what the thing is, is, like, even the cowards in an army will fight savagely if they think they're gonna die. If they think they're gonna die. And so you have to give them a point of retreat or else you've turned every coward in that army into a fighting man. And that is not what you want. Which was like. That is so antithetical to what I would have done. I would've been like, slaughter them all. But that's not what you want. You want some of them to run away and dishearten them and, like, save your men from that wild.

[B]

This is good.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Dragon point.

[B]

Graham knew it. Of course.

[C]

You freaking nailed it. It is 14 to 13 for Graham. I had no idea it would be so close.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[C]

We are like. This is. This is a nail biter, gents. Okay. There are five dangerous faults of character which may affect a general. You may make five selections and win up to five points.

[B]

5. Say it one more time. 5.

[C]

There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general.

[B]

Rashness. Like, you run into conflict to unnecessarily. What's. Like, you enjoy the spoils of war too much. So it's like you are. It's like sensation. Like, you just enjoy the reward. You don't want to go fight. You want the approval of your men so you don't take points of disagreement. You. Maybe this is related to another one that I said, but like a laziness of. You're only fighting because you have to. Like, you don't really want to be out there. And then a fifth one of. You're dumb. So not being that good at stupidity. Being stupid.

[C]

Yeah, Graham, what are your five.

[A]

I was gonna say, like an arrogance. You kind of got, like a main character syndrome. Like, you think you can't conceive that anything bad's gonna happen to you. The. Yeah, I was gonna say you got the bloodlust. Like, you just love the sensation of battle.

[C]

Got three more.

[A]

Yeah. Rash. I don't. Yeah, I was gonna say that you've sort of been appointed as this and, like, you don't really want to do this. And so you. You just sort of like, you're just kind of like, trying to run the clock out until you can go home. And so you're not really invested in winning this. You're kind of just like a company man. Yeah, we'll go with greed. You just want. You want some cash, and I'll just get four. I can't think of another one.

[C]

Okay, so here's the list. Recklessness leading to destruction. So I think you said bloodlust. You said rashness. I think that's probably a point.

[A]

Both.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Right. Right. Fair. So Graham is at 15, Thomas at 14.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Cowardice leading to capture. I think you both kind of said, don't want to, like, lazy or don't really want to be here. I think that kind of translates. So. Point. Point. Both. Graham is still ahead by one point. A hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults. Neither of you listed that one out. Delicacy of honor, which Sensitive to shame.

[A]

Thomas. Approval of the man he wanted approval.

[C]

That's the next one is over. Solicitude for your men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You want their approval, which is too much for you. So Thomas gets a point for that one.

[B]

We tied.

[C]

You are tied. Unbelievable. 16 to 16. Stupidity and greed not among them. Next. Unfortunately, I feel like if you had.

[A]

A greedy, stupid general, you'd add it to the list.

[C]

Yeah, like, that's a problem.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Yeah. Bloodlust, weirdly, might be okay if you're out there, like, stabbing dudes, but anyway. Okay. Chapter nine. We are. We are nearly through it. You got. How you guys hold up?

[B]

Doing Great. Let's do it.

[A]

Feel nervous.

[C]

Okay. Maneuvering.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Do I. As I. As I move my army, do I want to stick to valleys or mountains?

[B]

Mountains.

[A]

Valleys.

[C]

Point, Graham.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mountains are hard. You want to climb a mountain, but.

[B]

Valleys that people can see above you, like, they can kill you.

[C]

He says pass quickly over mountains, and I think it's because you don't want to be easily spotted.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

Like, from the low, I can see an army easily moving and gather all of that information. And yes, I'm up on top, so I'm hard to attack, but I'm giving away everything about where I'm heading to anyone who is within, like, a hundred miles, they can see me. Okay. Do I want to camp high or low? So I'm not moving. I'm camping.

[B]

Camp high.

[A]

Yeah, I'm gonna say camp high.

[C]

Camp high. Point. Both because. And weirdly, facing the sun, you basically, you don't want to climb for a fight. If they're Gonna come after you. You want them running uphill and you running downhill. That's ideal. Are there any principles for fighting near a river that you can think of?

[A]

You want to be able to. You don't want your backs to the river.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And you want to maybe. Yeah. You want them to be back to the river. So you want to be able to push them up against the river. And maybe you want to be fighting close to a bridge or a fjord or something, or to a bridge or some sort of ford of the river. Okay, that's my. Those are my two.

[B]

Not with. Back to the river was the one I was thinking of.

[C]

Okay, so here are the principles. Wait for the enemy to get half across and then attack.

[A]

Oh, there you go.

[B]

On the river. Okay.

[C]

Number two, don't go meet them when they are near a river. Seems like. Wait for them to be half across. And then always put your crafts and stuff upstream, not down. You never move upstream for a fight. You always want to be the one heading towards them. So I think. What did you guys say? Back to a river. That's kind of close. I'm not sure you guys got either.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[C]

There's also a bunch of advice for fighting in a salt marsh, but I don't know what that is. So I just wrote a note for myself that said, what are salt marshes? And then left it alone. I think it's like camp on dry ground. He says also in dry level country, find a spot with rising ground to your right and rear. Oh, why you guys figured this out? He never says that.

[A]

Probably the sun maybe. Oh, no, it doesn't make any difference. Facing a different way. The right and rear.

[B]

Is it the same thing? Of that means you're facing and it's going down.

[C]

Yeah. So the slope would be down to your left, but that's on flat.

[A]

Maybe like an archery thing. I don't know.

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

I was thinking maybe it's for throwing. So I'm always throwing like to my left, which means I can get more of a throw than if they are to my right. Which means less of a throw because most people are right handed is my guess. Okay, what do you do about country that has cliffs, torrents, deep hollows, confined spaces and tangled thickets and quagmires, et cetera?

[B]

Don't invade.

[A]

Avoid it.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Great.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. Yes. Stay away. And if you can fight the enemy, get it so that their back is to that stuff and then push them in. So avoid it. Do you have special. Are There any special considerations or tactics involved for areas with woods or grasses? So I have to give you each a point for that last one.

[A]

Woods, more grasses, Special considerations. Whether it's been rainy recently, how dry it is. Like, can they set fires and you're in trouble.

[C]

Okay, interesting.

[B]

So it's just how do I fight differently?

[C]

Yeah. If you are near a wooded area or an area with really high grass, is there anything that should come to mind?

[B]

Don't fight in the woods. I'm sure it's the same thing of like, don't go after them. Like, try not to fight in those environments if you can.

[C]

Okay. I think neither points it says search them for. They could hold enemy warriors. Right. Easy places for the enemy to hide. So send out somebody to search those areas. Make sure there's nobody, like crouching in the grass. Okay. Next question is about what various types of dust mean or signify. Gosh. So dust in a high column.

[B]

They're walking.

[A]

Yeah. People are marching in file, in rank. So there are. The enemy's on the move. The army is marching to. Is marching.

[C]

Incorrect. Chariots advancing low. Spread out dust.

[B]

They're marching now.

[A]

Yeah, now you got a big old army marching point each.

[C]

They are. They are indeed marching. Okay, what about dust that branches in many directions? And I will give you a full three points for a correct answer here. Because it's really hard.

[A]

Dust branching in many directions. You have an army that is preparing for battle because they're now sending your troops to the left and the right to create sort of the flanks.

[B]

And they're splitting up between.

[C]

Nope, they're going out to get firewood.

[B]

Oh, isn't that a great answer?

[C]

He's like dust going many directions means they are encamping because they are like, they're doing this because they're going to get firewood. Okay. Dust that goes back and forth to and fro.

[B]

They're scouting and they're looking around the area.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I would say.

[C]

Enemy encamping. So no points for any of you.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay. There. If birds are gathered in an area, what does that tell you?

[B]

They're cooking. They got food.

[A]

Or they have dead. There's. There's dead bodies. There's like animals are dead or something.

[C]

The area is unoccupied.

[B]

We're nailing this part.

[C]

This is great. What about a whole bunch of. A whole bunch of birds in flight, like scattered into flight.

[A]

Then there's people there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's an ambush. You guys are so good at this.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, so it is currently 21 to 20. Unreal guys are only one difference, which is pretty impressive.

[B]

So close.

[C]

Okay, here's a speed round. Ten questions. Oh, my gosh. And it's. What. What do various habits of men mean? And I. I would assume that this is like. Yes, you can look at your own men and see these things. And you can also look at the enemy's men and. And kind of divine what is happening in their army. So what if they are leaning on their spears?

[B]

They're tired.

[C]

Mm. They are faint from want of food. I will give you both a point. Close enough. Those who draw water for the army are drinking when they arrive at the stream.

[A]

They've just gone on a long march. Oh, no. Habits of that. You've. You have an. An undisciplined army.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Nope. They're thirsty. Oh, number three.

[B]

That's incredible.

[C]

Come on, guys. They're drinking. When they get to the street, that's thirsty.

[B]

Well, I thought you meant, like, alcohol when you first said that. But you just mean the water, right?

[C]

No, just the water.

[B]

Okay, Got it.

[C]

Men see an advantage, but they don't rush to take it.

[B]

They're cowards.

[A]

They're disciplined.

[C]

They're exhausted. Number four, you have disturbances in camp, like fights that break up around the camp.

[B]

The soldiers are bored.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say they're bored.

[C]

The general has weak authority.

[B]

Ooh.

[C]

Okay. The flags are all shifting around in camp.

[B]

They're moving. The camp is moving.

[C]

This is a fun game.

[A]

What does it mean, shifting?

[C]

Like they're moving around or coming down?

[A]

Yeah, they're. They're about to deploy. They're moving around sedition.

[C]

They're going to replace their leadership. What if they. What if the enemy has angry officers? What does that mean about the men?

[B]

About the men.

[A]

They have lazy men.

[B]

They're losing. Right.

[C]

I'm gonna give the point to Graham. It means weary men, which is close enough. 7. What if they are feeding their horses grain and killing their cattle for food and then not hanging their cooking pots over their campfires?

[B]

They have no food.

[C]

I'm gonna give you two points for this one, if you get it.

[A]

Feeding their horses grain, killing their cattle, killing their cattle for food, and then.

[C]

Not hanging their cooking pots over their campfires?

[B]

They're about to attack, Right? They're trying to, like, lighten up before.

[A]

Yeah. They're about to make a big move.

[C]

Okay. They are determined to fight to the death because they are not planning on coming back. So you guys are right. I'll give you both a point because you're close. It is currently 24 to 22 in favor of Graham. What if they are all whispering in small knots?

[B]

Sedition.

[A]

They're whispering in small knots? Yeah. Like there's some sort of. They don't have clarity on the. On what the commander wants or command structure.

[C]

The answer is disaffection. I feel like that's closer to Graham's, but yours is also kind of close because it's addict. They're just disaffected.

[B]

Give it to Graham.

[C]

We're moving on. Okay. The general is giving his men too frequent rewards. Like, he's just throwing money at him and it's.

[B]

What does this tell us about the army?

[C]

About what's going on in general with the army?

[B]

He wants his people to like him.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

He's. He's nervous that they're not strong enough for what's coming and he's trying to, like, puff their tires.

[C]

I've got to give that to Graham. It is. They are near the end of their resources.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So he is like, trying to keep his men stoked when they are just about to run out of gas.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, nice. What if he is giving too many punishments?

[B]

Army is weak. Doesn't. I mean, similar to the last one, but army is weak, doesn't think they can win. Needs the men to be better than they are.

[A]

The general is too scared personally to attack. And so the men are getting restless and are getting into trouble.

[C]

Point, Thomas. It means they are the enemy. The whole army is under dire stress. Right. They are like he is having to keep all these guys in line. And so it's their bad, bad straits. Okay. What is one thing you need to be sure of before you punish a soldier? That feels like an easy answer.

[A]

The truth. Like what actually happened.

[C]

Yeah, that's the answer here. The right answer is you need to be sure that they're attached to you before you punish.

[A]

A soldier is actually one of your soldiers.

[C]

Yes. Well, yes, that would obviously be something. Hold on, let me go find.

[B]

Otherwise he'll, like, revolt or, like, he'll just become disloyal.

[C]

Let me read this little section to you. It's actually kind of touching. So if soldiers are punished before they have grown attached to you, they will not prove submissive. And unless submissive, then will be practically useless. If when the soldiers have become attached to you, punishments are not enforced, they will still be useless. Therefore, soldiers must be treated in the first instance with humanity, but kept under control by means of iron discipline. This is a certain road to victory. If in training Soldiers commands are habitually enforced. The army will be well disciplined. If not, discipline will be bad. A general shows confidence in his men, but always insists on his orders being obeyed. Or, sorry, if a general does this, the gain will be mutual. So you have to treat them like absolute humans and with as much humanity as you can make them attached to you. But then absolutely insist on your orders being followed. Right. Which I think is. Makes sense. Yeah. And like, I hate to say this, but that's kind of like how I try to run a classroom. Right. Make sure that they know that I absolutely care about them and there's a reason that I enforce my rules and then actually enforce my rules. Right. Because they actually like that. Okay. There's another one on terrain, but I'm gonna kind of skip most of it. It mostly just gives you definitions of terrain, and then there's some good tips, like the different types of ground, Accessible ground, entangling ground, temporizing ground, narrow passes, precipitous heights and positions at a great distance from the enemy. So entangling ground is stuff where if you get in, it's. It can be abandoned, but it's hard to reoccupy, so you don't really want to give it up. Does that make sense? There's. And there's all these little tips. I'm going to skip most of it because again, it's mostly just definitions, so. But I'm going to read this part. Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look upon them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. If, however, you are indulgent, but unable to make your authority felt, kindhearted, but unable to enforce your commands, and incapable, moreover, of quelling disorder, then your soldiers must be likened to spoilt children. They are useless for any practical purpose. Chapter 11 has more types of ground. Dispersive ground, facile ground, contentious ground, open ground, ground of intersecting highways, serious ground, difficult ground, hemmed in ground, and desperate ground. Okay, I'm gonna skip a lot of that. I'll give you some of the most important concepts. So if you want the absolute utmost performance from your men, 100, you want 100%. They need to give it their all. What do you do? How do you get that kind of performance out of them? Let's say in a battle.

[B]

I'm in the battle. What do I do in the battle to get their best performance?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Clear direction, confidence. Yeah, it's like clear instruction. Because they've already been trained at this point.

[A]

So, yeah, they have some kind of vision that personally they will be benefit from a victory.

[C]

Okay. Nope. Cut off their retreat. We talked about this earlier, right? A man who cannot retreat, he says you'll turn even your cowards into like the most stalwart of fighting men. So if they. If they have to fight to the death, they're going to fight to the death. And so cut off the retreat of your own men. Is there anyone with whom you should share your plans?

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, nobody.

[C]

Nice. Yeah, nobody. He says.

[A]

I just didn't want to give him a point.

[C]

He says you should be so mysterious that even your own men kind of don't know what's coming. You should not share your plans or where you're going. You present them with the fact the day of we are moving, we are going here. They can't know anything else because if you are all about deception, right? And that word gets out, you are in deep dire trouble. He says there are three things you should do the day that you take command of an army. And this isn't just in an army. We're talking like in the nation. What policies can I enact? So I've just. Like, we are in war. I was just appointed as general and I now have a little bit of policy movement in the country. What are three things I must do? And we're almost home. There's one more chapter after this.

[B]

Three things I do when I take control. I should give a rousing motivational speech, something that makes people feel good. I should tell people. It's either tell people or, like, do something for them that personally benefits them. Like, I'm fixing your roads or you're going to get all this gold if you conquer these people or whatever. And then for something like forgive my enemies or something like some kind of show of grace or benevolence.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like I was going to say, don't change customs and traditions.

[C]

Okay, you're thinking Machiavelli here. Don't change customs and traditions. But this is presumably your home country. So this is not you've taken over an enemy country. This is you've been appointed in your own country as general. So you can change that answer if you'd like.

[A]

I'm going to tell everybody that the taxes are going to stay the same.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I'm going to find some person that is, well deserving to promote in front of everybody. So everybody sees that. The meritorious rise.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Interesting. And I am going to.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I just got two.

[C]

Okay. Number one, block the frontier passes.

[B]

What? Nailed it. Yeah, that was my number one.

[C]

Keep the. It's. Keep the enemy out of your. Out of your country.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Number two, destroy official tallies. It doesn't actually say tallies of what?

[A]

Oh, it's just like. You're like tax jubilees.

[C]

I think it's either taxes or just numbers of people. Both of which you don't really want records of. Like, you're going to need money. You're going to need people. And with people, start seeing how many people are dying, they're not. Be stoked. So get rid of those. And then last stop, all passage of emissaries. Get rid of the foreigners, get them all out. Right. Makes sense.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

We didn't do very well.

[B]

Zero. Yeah. Nothing.

[C]

Yeah, well, there are 13. I just wrote 12 twice. Okay, so chapter 12 is about fire. It is generally about how to use fire in the field and light their camp on fire. He's like, look, there's a fire breaking out in their camp. Don't go yet. Wait till it's, like, hot and there's chaos. Then attack the height of the fire. And he says, always keep fire implements on you. You always need to be ready to attack with fire. I think this is the equivalent of, like, our drone bombs. Now, there's only one good question. Besides, I mean, most of it's just common sense, right? Like, light a fire in the camp if you can. Don't light fire when the wind is blowing at you. Don't do that, you dummy. There's a. It's a lot of stuff like that, but there's one that. That's a good question. So should I try to light the enemy's camp on fire at night or during the daytime?

[A]

Probably. Oh, go for it, Thomas.

[B]

I was gonna say daytime.

[A]

I was also gonna say daytime because it's. It's nighttime. You get light to see by, and it's. You get. And you see the fire quickly. Daytime, you may not know smoke and. Yeah. It may take time for you to realize it.

[C]

Interesting. The answer is day. And the reason is because you get better wind in the day. Oh, right. Like, nighttime wind will come up and then kind of chill out. Whereas a daytime wind, if you've got wind that'll blow all day. So, like, get yourself some daytime wind, which kind of makes sense. Interesting. Okay. The final chapter is all about spies.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

Like, remember, the whole point is deceit.

[B]

Right?

[C]

And so the final chapter is. Here is how to work with spies. Because it may be the most important thing that exists in. In your efforts. There are five types of spies.

[B]

Gosh. Okay, I'm sorry.

[C]

I'm sorry if I'm exhausting you with my quiz.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm not giving you a whole lot of multiple choices. These are a lot of like hard questions. But what are the five types of spies? I'll give you a point per.

[B]

So I don't know if this is the cat, but like assassins. So like you're wanting to go in and kill someone.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You have a type that is like an embedded spy where it's like you want someone to become the like high up ranking person in their. Or like have connections. So it's more like long term relational. Someone who's like, like builds relationships, like romantic relationships. Like it's a targeted one person.

[A]

Like a hot pot.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Someone who. Oh, like they want to sow dissension so like they join the other person's army, but like, just to get them to like revolt or throw down their weapons or whatever.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And then the fifth one is the Gosh, I don't have a fifth one. I got four.

[C]

Okay. All right. Graham, the classic spy.

[A]

You're just sending somebody super stealthy in there just to figure things out.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

The second one is you have a defector from their army coming over to you and telling you things. The third one is, is that you, they have a spy in your camp and you know it and you feed him false information to send back to the enemy.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Fourth is you've got like a bird or I don't know, you like spy bird.

[C]

Cool. You got like, nice.

[A]

You got some kind of like that.

[C]

You train to all be chill so they think there's no one hiding in your.

[A]

Or you've got somebody to like intercept their message.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

That's my four.

[C]

I just got four. Okay, so here's the list of spies.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Having local spies means employing the services of the inhabitants of the district, like the merchant, just like a random farmer. Tell us what you see. Right? That's like. Then I can get the movements of the army. Having inward spies making use of officials of the enemy. So that would be an embedded spy. I think you both got that one. Having doomed spies doing certain things openly for purposes of deception and allowing our spies to know of them and report them to the enemy. So I think what you do is you send a guy in, embed him in their army, and then have him do things like openly and sort of give himself away. But all of that is misdirection. And so he is going to die. But they will Think it's true and work on that information. Especially if you have another embedded spy. Figure it out and then ditch him. Like give him away. Makes your embedded spy better. Makes your doom spy. Give that a lot of information away. They're not very clear about exactly what that is. Especially with the having our spies know of it and report it to the enemy. But I think that's what it means is like having one of our embedded guys that we want to say stay there, give that information away. Having surviving spies finally which are those that bring back news from the enemy's camp.

[A]

That's just like your classic spy.

[C]

Classic spy. So inward spies, which is official of the enemy. Converted spies, which is getting a hold of the enemy spies and using them for our own purposes. Which you said doomed spies and surviving spies. I'm unclear about the difference between an inward spy and a surviving spy. Maybe it's just like get the guy to come back. Anyway, those are the five.

[B]

I think Graham got all four right of his.

[C]

Graham got three of them. Correct. You got one?

[B]

Yep.

[C]

So. So Graham crushing it right now. 26. So you are four behind. And unfortunately one question left. What is this punishment for the spy who tells a secret before the right time?

[B]

Death.

[A]

What is the punishment for a spy who tells a secret before the right time?

[C]

I'll say there's two points possible here.

[A]

You can't win.

[B]

Doesn't change it.

[C]

But it's. It's point of pride.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait. So he's. What do you mean he's. He's.

[C]

He gave away a tactic before he was supposed to.

[A]

To the enemy.

[C]

Yes. Or just told. Then you're like gave information away when he wasn't supposed to.

[A]

Then you let you know he doesn't get to come home.

[C]

Okay, so death is correct answer. And you're also supposed to kill the guy he told. Oh, so even if he likes somebody or he tells his wife or he tells his kids like death to the spy. Death the kid. Okay, final tally is Graham at 30 and Thomas at 27. Hard fought battle.

[B]

Well done, Graham.

[C]

You've won the cake.

[A]

Deceptive of them all.

[C]

So come around like the 15th. Let's go to Heb. When I got a little money again. I mean I had my windshield crack this week. It was a whole thing. And a bird in my car.

[A]

Dude, you don't need to buy me a cake. I feel bad.

[C]

I'm definitely going to buy you a cake.

[B]

You don't feel bad. You're cheering for it.

[C]

What happened to your so my. My windshield Got chipped or something. A crack just appeared. I don't know how. I think it was during the football game. And I also had a bird randomly in my car this week.

[B]

I flew in, it was in the car.

[A]

It was crapping all over the place.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So in the car.

[C]

So I like way late here. Working on a, like a unit that I was putting together. And then at 9 o', clock, I went out to my car and I turned it on. It goes.

[B]

I heard.

[C]

What was that? Like that. I got out and I like turned on some lights and I heard more flapping. And there was a bird about the size of a sparrow sitting in the back of my hatchback. What are you doing? So I rolled down my windows all the way down and was like, get out of here. And he just kept hopping around. And then he got up on the dash and I tried to throw a couple of like, T shirts at him to gently nudge him because he kept on trying to fly off the windshield. And that doesn't work.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And he got scared and pooped everywhere. All over my car.

[B]

Had not pooped before. Because you were trying to get it out. That's when it started.

[C]

That's when it started pooping. And then I like, that was tough. So I had to take my car to the wash because it needed one anyway. But they got all the poop off except the stuff on the speaker grills. So I don't know how to get that off without accidentally like making it flipped fall on my speaker. It's a whole thing. So gross. Anyway, that's been my week.

[A]

Anyway, sounds like that bird read some Sun Tzu.

[B]

Nailed it.

[C]

Wait until like he fainted being chill and then pooped all over my dash attacker. I at least suspect it. Okay, so all in all, Sun Tzu all about deception, Right? Use spies when you can. But be human to your soldiers. But absolutely have an iron will.

[A]

Doesn't he? In the book, something like the greatest victory is not fighting.

[C]

We kind of started with that, Right? Let's see the last. Oh, come on, Kendall, stop doing this. It's trying to help. Have me buy their.

[A]

Like, the supreme general is the one that can like win the war without fighting. Okay, I thought he had that in the spot.

[C]

Hence, it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purpose of spying and thereby achieve great results. Spies are a most important element in water because on them depends on enemies ability to move. Cool. So he ends with spies. But earlier I read you that section where you said, like, it is best to take a whole. Whole country, a whole army, do all of that with no bloodshed. Like, that is. That's the ideal. All right. And then have your people not think of you greatly for it. Like, you just. You win. You're like, and Canada's arms.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Well, this is. With that disturbing note, this has been classical stuff. You should know with Graham Thomas and aj. You can find. Find us on Twitter at Classical Stuff. Sscal Stuff. You can email us@theguys classicalstuff.net you can patronize us on Patreon, wherein you can listen to monthly AMA episodes. And we have various other tidbits and sundries that we post every now and then. We sort of have a long chat. That sort of an ongoing chat thread that people drop in and out of. There was once we shared all of pictures of our pets, which was delightful. And you can just, like, leave a comment. Yes, we're. We're like 100 comments away from close reads. I don't know why I use that as my benchmark.

[C]

Close reads.

[B]

It's like, are you really tracking that?

[A]

Yeah, I see. We're like 100.

[B]

Why are you admitting.

[A]

Oh, never mind.

[B]

Wait, what?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I just, like, I'm trying to find.

[B]

Benchmarks for comparing our number of reviews to another podcast and then saying, we want to beat that number.

[C]

Oh, why not?

[A]

How great would that be?

[B]

Cool. The podcast is great.

[A]

This is great.

[C]

Which is why it's my benchmark.

[B]

That's so funny.

[A]

If people listen to us and please.

[C]

Give us a five star, we're not giving close reads. Let's be honest.

[A]

We're giving. Yes, Cursory. Cursory reads.

[B]

The most cursory.

[A]

Anyway, thanks for listening to us. We love you guys and we'll talk to you later.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

It.