287: The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, by Washington Irving

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Classical Stuff You Should Know
Episode: 287 – The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, by Washington Irving
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee
Release Date: November 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this "spooky edition" of Classical Stuff You Should Know, the hosts dive into Washington Irving’s iconic short story, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow. With Halloween just past, they explore the story itself, its literary tones, and expectations vs. reality before tracing its historical and cultural context. The conversation naturally expands into a detailed portrait of Washington Irving and concludes with an investigation into the true origins of Halloween, bringing in reflections on tradition and modern celebration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Expectations Versus Reality: What is The Legend of Sleepy Hollow?

• (02:12) The group begins by voicing their assumptions: Headless Horseman, Ichabod Crane, New England autumns, and ghostly tales.
• Fun Fact: None of the hosts had read the story in full before; their understanding came from pop culture and derived tales.
• Thomas: “This is a delightful and kind of funny tale, really is not nearly as spooky as you expect it to be.” (06:01)

2. Setting the Scene: Tarrytown and Sleepy Hollow

• (06:29) The story’s setting is described in lush, tranquil detail, focusing on the peaceful, “bewitched” atmosphere of Sleepy Hollow.
  • Quote (Thomas/Irving, 07:13): “A drowsy, dreamy influence seems to hang over the land and to pervade the very atmosphere… Some say the place was bewitched by a high German doctor… others say an old Indian chief… Certain it is, the place still continues under a witching power…”
• The local legend: A headless Hessian soldier haunts the region, searching for his lost head.

3. Ichabod Crane: Character Portrait

• (09:56) Ichabod is introduced as the eccentric, tall, awkward schoolmaster from Connecticut—strict in class, gossipy and good-natured out of it, scraping by through community hospitality.
  • Memorable Description, (10:17):
    “He was tall, but exceedingly lank... hands that dangle a mile out of his sleeves, feet that might have served for shovels... His head was small and flat at top, with huge ears, large green glassy eyes, and a long snipe nose...” – Irving, read by Thomas
  • The hosts have fun comparing Thomas’s own mannerisms and appearance to Ichabod.
• Ichabod is superstitious, often spooking himself after reading Cotton Mather’s history of New England witchcraft.

4. The Love Triangle and Motivation

• (14:18) Ichabod’s object of desire is Katrina Van Tassel, daughter of the wealthy and affable farmer Baltus.
  • Katrina is depicted as both flirtatious and “ripe as one of her father’s peaches.”
  • Ichabod’s interest is as much in her farm and prospects as in her person.
    • Quote (Thomas/Irving, 16:39): “It’s not so much that she is the completion of his desires, but that owning the farm is…”
• The rival: Abraham “Brom Bones” Van Brunt, the brash, beloved local hero, notorious for his pranks and riding prowess.
  • “Yet it was whispered that she did not altogether discourage his hopes. Oh, certain it is, his advances were signals for rival candidates to retire…” (18:43)

5. The Famous Evening: Dance, Storytelling, and the Supernatural

• (23:22) Ichabod attends a country party at the Van Tassels. After dancing impressively (if awkwardly), he listens to local tales of the Headless Horseman.
• The legend: The Horseman appears at night, racing beside travelers and disappearing at a certain bridge.
• Ichabod makes his romantic bid for Katrina but is rejected and leaves crestfallen.

6. The Climax: The Ride Home

• (25:10 onward) The story’s suspenseful highlight:
  • On the lonely road, Ichabod is joined by a silent, massive rider.
  • Gradually he realizes: the rider is headless and carries his “head” (a pumpkin) on his saddle.
  • In classic comic-horror, Ichabod flees; the “Headless Horseman” throws the pumpkin at him, knocking him down.
  • Ichabod disappears from Sleepy Hollow; a later rumor claims he became a lawyer elsewhere, but the townsfolk believe the Horseman “took” him.
  • Key Quote (Thomas/Irving, 27:40): “What they found next to Ichabod’s… was a pumpkin… So obviously he dressed up, freaked him out, threw a pumpkin at him, and then the guy left.”

7. The Moral and Comic Tone

• The tale isn’t macabre but wry.
  • (31:27) “There is no situation in life but has its advantages and pleasures provided we will take a joke as we find it… for a country schoolmaster to be refused the hand of a Dutch heiress is a certain step to high preferment in the state.”
• The hosts debunk the idea of Ichabod as a tragic victim, noting his mercenary intentions and the comic nature of his comeuppance.

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Memorable Quotes & Segments

• On the expectations of horror:
  “It was another one of those ones where… I was expecting a very monstrous story… and really it was a story about the conflict between good and evil in a man’s soul. This is a delightful and kind of funny tale…”
  (Thomas, 06:01)

• On Ichabod’s Motivation:
  “He wants to marry this girl. Not for her, but for, like, the farm. Which isn’t like… not cool, dude.”
  (Thomas, 30:23)

• On Sleepy Hollow’s place in pop culture:
  “The lengths that this story has now run, right? There’s headless horsemen, all kinds of stuff… and it really is a picture of true terror with a flaming pumpkin head. Nope… just a hilarious… Just a Dutch farm dunking on the schoolmaster, which is great.”
  (Thomas, 32:11)

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[34:00] Biographical Deep Dive: Washington Irving

Early Life and Literary Output

• Born the week the Revolutionary War ended; met George Washington as a child.
• Not a studious child, preferred theatre and letter-writing.
• Created several literary pseudonyms: Jonathan Oldstyle, Geoffrey Crayon, etc.
• Helped coin “Gotham” for New York; invented “Knickerbocker,” source of the NY Knicks name.
• Played literary pranks, including a fake-author backstory for his History of New York.

Writing & Influence

• Authored The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon (included Rip Van Winkle and Sleepy Hollow).

• Responsible for durable myths (e.g., the idea that medievals thought the world was flat via his fictionalized Columbus biography).

• Mixed fact and fiction, gaining fame on both sides of the Atlantic.

• Credited with helping cement modern images of Santa Claus and naming Gotham.

  • Quote (Thomas, 38:41): “He is, weirdly, the source of Santa’s sleigh. He was the first to depict St. Nick flying through the air… He invented Gotham. He invented Santa. He was the source of the New York Knicks…”

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[39:27] The True Story of Halloween: Origins and Meanings

Christian and Folk Roots

• All Hallows’ Eve stems from the Christian All Saints Day (Nov 1), a day for honoring the dead and saints.
• European traditions included costume-wearing (“mumming”) and souling for “soul cakes.”
  • Soul Cake: “Small round cake with sweet spices. It resembles a shortbread biscuit.” (B, 44:01)
• Costumes intended to ward off spirits; Jack-o-lanterns (first made from turnips) for protection or mischief.
  • “If you had a ghost that might have been after you, it was a good idea to wear a costume and confuse him…” (C, 44:45)

Pagan Elements and Americanization

• Samhain: A Celtic pagan festival around the same time, involving spirits, divination, and bonfires.
  • Children imitated wandering spirits, “trick or treating” for food and performing tricks if denied.
• Puritans in America opposed Halloween among many other celebrations, so traditions shifted and gradually Americanized.
• Current American trick-or-treating did not solidify until the 1930s.

Modern Observations

• Hosts agree today’s celebration (dressing up, candy, mild mischief) is fairly disconnected from its more superstitious or religious origins.
• Some neighborhoods and churches now hold alternative events—hosts reminisce about youth group “morality play” Halloween alternatives from the 1990s and 2000s.
  • (50:35) “Wow, that’s the real scary thing of Halloween is, like, debauch sin and depravity… oh, I could have just gone and got candy…”

On Celebrating

• Graeme: “I have always been fine with celebrating Halloween.” (48:23)
• Thomas: “If anything, my reaction wouldn’t necessarily be, I’m not going to celebrate this. It would be, let’s bring back some of the traditions around All Saints Day and actually like, think about death and think about the saints and think about the departed faithful…” (52:24)

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Notable Moments

• [10:58] Uncanny comparison between Ichabod and Thomas (“Dude, it’s you.” – B, 10:58).
• [23:22] Hilarious description of Ichabod’s dance skills and preparations.
• [31:47] The comical “moral” of Sleepy Hollow—take a joke, don’t take life too seriously.
• [38:41] The host’s surprise at Irving’s huge cultural legacy (Gotham, Knicks, Santa).
• [44:01+] Deep dive into “soul cakes,” mumming, Catholic vs. pagan influences on Halloween.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The Legend of Sleepy Hollow is less a ghost story than a satirical tale about small-town characters, gossip, greed, and youthful rivalry.
• Washington Irving was a pivotal early American literary figure, whose legacy permeates American culture far beyond Sleepy Hollow.
• Halloween’s roots are richly layered—Christian, folk, and pagan elements combine, but its present incarnation is primarily about fun, candy, and costumes, with only a distant echo of spooks and saints.
• The podcasters advocate engaging meaningfully with tradition: consider both the serious (remembrance of the dead, saints) and the playful (costumes and community).

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Timestamps Quick Reference

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|------------| | Banter, Opening, Intros | 00:11–03:00| | Sleepy Hollow: Expectations & Setup | 03:00–06:30| | Setting and Legend | 06:30–09:50| | Ichabod Crane Character Study | 09:50–14:30| | Katrina & Brom Bones | 14:30–21:00| | The Dance & Storytelling Night | 21:00–24:45| | The Ride with the Headless Horseman | 24:45–31:00| | Resolution & Moral | 31:00–32:30| | Washington Irving Biography | 32:30–39:27| | Halloween: History & Origins | 39:27–53:00| | Reflections on Modern Halloween | 53:00–54:30|

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For full quotes and contextual discussions, see the times provided; the hosts maintain a warm, humorous tone throughout, often poking fun at themselves and one another while drawing thoughtful insights from old texts.

Transcript

[A]

Hi and welcome to Classical stuff. You should know. A podcast about classical education, old books, ideas, how to raise a child.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

No, we do that, like talking about education.

[C]

And only one of us has children.

[A]

Yeah, Only one of us children. Yeah. How to.

[C]

As of yet, we haven't seen how they've turned out.

[B]

That's right. My oldest is pretty cool. They're all very cool. Very good. All very good.

[A]

Anyway, my name is Graham Donaldson and I am joined with. By Thomas.

[B]

We do this every time.

[A]

I know, but I was. I double climb and I.

[C]

Some somewhere I'm joined by Meg B.

[B]

That's me.

[A]

And A.J. hannibur.

[C]

That's me.

[A]

And guys, I've been feeling like I need a bit of a haircut.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I feel like it's getting a little. I feel like I could take a little bit off the top, if you know what I'm saying. And I wish there was a piece of literature that would help me sort of think about how much I should. I should take off the top.

[C]

The history of the French Revolution or.

[A]

The other thing is, I've also been realizing that I need to. I need to improve in my life. And I've been looking to get ahead in my life. And I was wondering if there's any kind of.

[B]

He has two jokes that he's doing.

[C]

I know.

[B]

What is this?

[A]

Like, I was weighing between two of them, so I just decided to go for both of them.

[C]

Nice.

[A]

We're gonna be learning about Ichabod Crane and the Legend of Sleepy Hollow.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

For our spooky episode coming out November 3rd or whatever. Day 4th.

[B]

Coming 4th.

[C]

So, yeah, putting my episode together, I was walking around where I live and there's a whole bunch of college kids in costumes everywhere.

[A]

Halloween.

[C]

I was also looking for something rather short since I didn't have a whole lot of time to prepare. And I read a little list and.

[A]

Months between the last times we recorded.

[C]

I have stuff. Graham. The last several weekends I've had DJ gigs.

[A]

It's true.

[C]

So I saw the Legend of Sleepy Hollow and I was like, ah, I don't know anything about that. It's kind of a Halloweeny episode and I don't know much about Halloween, so I thought we would do a Halloween themed spooky episode.

[B]

Spooky.

[C]

Which is kind of fun. Have you gentlemen read the Legend of Sleepy Hollow?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Neither have I. But haven't we done an episode on Sleepy Hollow? No, I don't think so.

[C]

What do you know about it?

[A]

I. The headless horseman okay.

[C]

He's involved.

[A]

Ichabod Crane.

[C]

Who's that?

[A]

That's the guy that sees the headless horseman on the road.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Is he the main character?

[C]

Yeah. Okay, this is what we got.

[A]

There's probably a girl.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Girls involved.

[B]

Guys. Nice.

[A]

New England.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

It's a short story too.

[C]

So far, so good. Yes, it's pretty short. Wouldn't take you probably more than like hour, hour and a half to read the whole thing. Irving, Washington Irving, who is perhaps more interesting than the story. We'll get there. There's some stuff that you don't realize comes from Washington Irving. That definitely comes from Washington Irving. Okay, so we'll talk about that. So the sequence for today's podcast is ideally that short story. Talk about Washington Irving. Talk about Halloween in general. Because even just this last ama, we got asked, should Christians celebrate Halloween? And you can still make up your mind for yourself, but I think I've got some information that might sway you one way or the other. Okay.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Which is fun. So our story, I'm gonna read some fun chunks of it because again, it's not that long. It's not like it has a large and complicated. It's not a large and complicated tale, but the writing is delightful and the story is delightful. And it's another one of those ones where I went in expecting one thing and I came out with a completely different thing. So I was also going to originally pair with this, I read another short Horror story by H.P. lovecraft called the Hound, which is the origin of the Necronomicon. And if you're a fan of horror movies, you know the Necronomicon because it appears in a gajillion horror movies, right? It shows up and I think the Evil Dead, it's usually covered in human skin. It's very. It's very spooky. But it's a made up thing. And it was made up by HP Lovecraft. And that's the origin story for it. And with that story, you get exactly what you are expecting. There are grave robbers. They have this big museum full of horrible things. They've stolen from graves. They steal this amulet and there's some sort of like flying ghosty skeleton corpse that, you know, messes with them and does horrible things. And so that one, it's. It's a horror story, kind of like you're expecting. What if you were to jump into the Legend of the Sleepy Hollow? What kind of story would you be expecting? Like, what would you be expecting to read what were you sitting down? You'd be like, I'm going to have this kind of experience.

[B]

You like a genre or what?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, is a horror story a genre? It's just like a spooky tale.

[C]

So it's like kind of like Edgar Allan Poe bar.

[B]

You're like around a campfire and you're like, hey, hey. Once upon a time this crazy thing happened to me. And then they talk about, I saw a headless horseman one time.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I am like a fun, simple New England kid. And I. It is a time of year, fall, and I'm going for a walk from one village to another and I get slightly lost. And then I see a ghostly figure on the hill. And I think, what is that? I realize it's a man without a head riding a horse. And he chases me and I run and I get lost and I come into some sort of village. And they're like, ah, what you've seen is the headless horseman. And then I'm like, tell me more about this, about this vision. And it's like some men say it doesn't exist. And then you're like, but I just saw it walking here now. And then they give you the whole like sort of rundown of the story of who this headless horseman was he was in love with, alas, back in the day. And then you could find out out about it. And then Ichabod Crane then thinks that he is gonna try to defeat him.

[C]

Or capture him or something.

[A]

No, I don't know about that. No, that's not really 19th century thing. He wants to like maybe, you know, deliver the thing that the headless horseman wanted to deliver to some village, but he couldn't do it because he was killed. And so he's gonna go do it instead. I don't know. That's my take. That's what I expect to read.

[C]

This story's not that. Okay, definitely.

[B]

That sounds like a very interesting story.

[C]

It was another one of those ones where it's like the. What was the last one I did? Jekyll and Hyde. Jekyll and Hyde, where I was expecting a very monstrous story. And really it was a story about the conflict between good and evil in a man's soul. It was this great thing. This is a delightful and kind of funny tale, really is not nearly as spooky as you expect it to be. So I'm gonna talk about it a little bit. I'll read some quotes. It takes place near a place called Tarrytown, which is a real place in New York.

[A]

It's also a real place in Austin.

[C]

It is, yeah. So, T A R R Y, not T E R R Y. So, Tarrytown. And to quote, there lies a small market town or rural port which by some is called Greensburg, but which is more generally and properly known by the name of Tarrytown. This name was given, we are told, in former days by the good housewives of the adjacent country from the inveterate propensity of their husbands to linger about the village tavern on market days. So they would go and their husbands would tarry.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Awesome.

[C]

So near that is a place called Sleepy Hollow. Not far from this village, perhaps about two miles, there is a little valley or rather lap of land among the high hills which is one of the quietest places in the whole world. A small brook glides through it with just murmur enough to lull one to repose. And the occasional whistle of a quail or tapping of a woodpecker is almost the only sound that ever breaks in upon the uniform tranquility. I recollect that. Or I. Sorry. I recollect that when a stripling, my first exploit in squirrel shooting, was in a grove of tall walnut trees that shades one side of the valley. I'd wandered into it at noontime, when all nature is peculiarly quiet, and was startled by the roar of my own gun as it broke the sabbath stillness around and was prolonged and reverberated by the angry echoes. If ever I should wish for a retreat whither I might steal from the world and its distractions and dream quietly away the remnant of a troubled life, I know of none more promising than this little valley from the listless repose of the place and the peculiar character of its inhabitants, who are descendants from the original Dutch settlers. This sequestered glen has long been known by the name of Sleepy Hollow, and its rustic lads are called the Sleepy Hollow Boys. Throughout all the neighboring country, a drowsy, dreamy influence seems to hang over the land and to pervade the very atmosphere. Some say the place was bewitched by a high German doctor during the early days of the settlement. Others that an old Indian chief, the prophet or wizard of his tribe, held his powwows there before the country was discovered by Master Hendrick Hudson. Certain it is the place still continues under the sway of some witching power that holds a spell over the minds of the good people and causes them to walk in a continual reverie. So, sleepy Place.

[B]

Yeah, makes sense.

[C]

Witching stuff matches the name.

[B]

This is Good.

[C]

Okay. And then it describes the horseman. So this is right at the beginning when he's talking about the various tales that go through that. That troubled land. The dominant spirit, however, that haunts this enchanted region. And seems to be commander in chief of all the powers of the air. Is the apparition of a figure on horseback without a head. It is said by some to be the ghost of a Hessian trooper. Whose head been carried away by a cannonball. In some nameless battle during the Revolutionary War. And who is ever and anon seen by the country folk hurrying along in the gloom of night as if on the wings of the wind. His haunts are not confined to the valley. But extend at times to the adjacent roads. And especially to the vicinity of a church at no great distance. Indeed, certain of the most authentic historians of those parts. Who've been careful in collecting and collating the floating facts concerning this specter. Alleged that the body of the trooper having been buried in the churchyard, the ghost rides forth to the scene of battle in nightly quest of his head. And that the rushing speed with which he sometimes passes along the hollow like a midnight blast. Is owing to his being belated and in a hurry to get back to the churchyard before daybreak. So that's the horse norm. Okay, this is all before our story has begun. Sort of giving the background. Now we get to the stuff that I really love. Now it's going to describe Ichabod Crane. And this was a delightful discovery. And you can tell which of us three it most likely describes.

[B]

I'm nervous after this, like, Jekyll and Hyde thing. Where you thought I was like one of the characters. And he's like a stick in the mud, much like me. So I'm nervous.

[C]

But he's so good.

[B]

He's, like, still nervous. For the Sigabad Crane thing.

[A]

Do I have descriptors that describe me? I feel like I'm an everyman.

[B]

That's not quite right. Not close.

[C]

No, you're not.

[B]

Not at all.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You're Prince, darling, remember?

[A]

Oh, that's right.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

In this place of nature, there abode in a remote period of American history. That is to say some 30 years since a worthy wight of the name of Ichabod Crane who sojourned, or as he expressed it, tarried in Sleeping Hollow for the purpose of instructing the children of the vicinity. He was a native of Connecticut, a state which supplies the Union with pioneers for the mind as well as the forest. And sends forth yearly its legions of frontier woodsmen. And country schoolmasters. The cognomen of Crane was not inapplicable to his person. He was tall, but exceedingly lank, with narrow shoulders, long arms and legs, hands that dangle a mile out of his sleeves, feet that might have served for shovels, and his whole frame most loosely hung together.

[B]

Dude, it's you.

[C]

It is AJ his head was small and flat at top, with huge ears, large green glassy eyes, and a long snipe nose so that it looked like a weathercock. Perched upon his spindle neck to tell which way the wind blew. To see him striding along the profile of a hill on a windy day with his clothes bagging and fluttering about him. One might have mistaken him for the genius of famine descending upon the earth. Or some scarecrow eloped from a cornfield.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

I mean, you don't have a flathead.

[B]

You don't.

[A]

I don't have a flat head.

[C]

But a lot of the other stuff.

[A]

You don't think you're do have a giant wingspan, though.

[C]

I do. And I have big green glassy eyes. And I got big old flappy feet and I got.

[A]

Yeah, you can like, walk on water with those things. I really can, like snowshoe without the shoes.

[B]

Incredible.

[C]

I have done so. Okay. I thought this was really funny. I had no idea it was about a teacher. And the teacher is very close to my own person, which I thought was great. That was a fun discovery last night. So Crane's upkeep. Crane is the local schoolmaster. And we all know schoolmasters don't make an abundance of cash. And so he had to sort of.

[A]

They didn't back then either.

[C]

No, they did not. And so he had to sort of depend on other people for, like, to supply the rest of his room and board. So he'd sort of make his way about town. He would eat with the people and supply them with, like, poetry and gossip. And he especially loved a certain book called Cotton Mather's History of New England English. Sorry, History of New England Witchcraft. So he would tell them all these spooky tales, and they just loved having him around because he's this. And even while in the classroom, he was no kind person to the students. Like, he. He held a very strict classroom. Let's say he was not kind. He was strict. Gotcha. And for the kids that were, you know, kind of trying their best and a little bit soft, he would smack the bad kids all the harder. The kids who were, like, you know, stubborn and didn't want to do things and were bullies, He Would make sure those were well switched and the guys that were maybe a little more tender. He was kind to. But outside of the classroom, he was especially kind. And he would dote on the kids and treat them all nice and be a just generally good man about town. Everybody loved him. He was a bachelor. And that was the way he made. This is A.J.

[A]

This is great.

[C]

It's ridiculous.

[B]

This is great.

[C]

So he sort of made his way about the country and made up the rest of his stuff that way. And let's see, there's one more little bit about how he. Because he had this propensity for that history of New England witchcraft, he thought often of, you know, black cats and bats and all these things. And sometimes at night he would kind of spook himself a little bit if he, like, got crossed by a beetle. And he's like, witch is familiar. Like, you gotta get. This isn't so much like me, but there's a little quote that I love. All these, however, were mere terrors of the night, phantoms of the mind that walk in darkness. And though he had seen many specters in his time and been more than once beset by Satan in diverse shapes, well, I mean, obviously, like beetles.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

In his lonely perambulations, yet daylight put an end to all these evils. And he would have passed a pleasant life of it in despite of the devil and all his works, if his path had not been crossed by a being that caused more perplexity to the mortal man than ghosts, goblins, and the whole race of witches put together. And that was a woman.

[A]

So is this gonna be like a boy who cried wolf kind of thing? He's gonna see this headless horseman. Everyone's gonna be like, ah, dude, you see ghosts everywhere.

[C]

It's better. As soon as I start introducing the rest of the story, you guys are gonna know the rest of the story without me having to easily say it. So he begins to like this woman named Katrina Van Tassel, whose father is named Baltus. Baltus Van Tassel is a wealthy farmer who sort of runs his own little kingdom. And his joy is not so much in, like, the cash, but in the bounty. He's got apples, he's got mutton, he's got all of these things. And he's a very jolly good natured fellow. And Crane makes his rounds to also be a singing tutor because he's got this great nasally nose and he's very loud in the choir. And so he goes around teaching people to sing a little bit while he falls in Kind of love with Katrina Van Tassel. And I've lost my. I at some point, like reached my copy limit from my Kindle app, so I have to go searching for the quote here. But Katrina was a bit of a flirt. Let's see, where is she? Okay. Among these musical disciples who assembled one evening each week to receive his instructions in psalmody was Katrina Van Tassel, the daughter and only child of a substantial Dutch farmer. She was a blooming lass of fresh 18, plump as a partridge, ripe and melting and rosy cheeked as one of her father's peaches, and universally famed not only for her beauty, but her vast expectations. She was withal, a little of a coquette, as might be perceived even in her dress, which was a mixture of ancient and modern fashions. As most suited to set off her charms, she. She wore the ornaments of pure yellow gold which her great grandmother had brought over from Saardam, the tempting stomacher of the olden time, and withal a provokingly short petticoat to display the prettiest foot and ankle in the country round. So she's a flirt, which causes him a little bit of trouble. But the more he spends time with her, he imagines himself in this wonderfully ample life. It's not so much that she. She is the completion of his desires, but that owning the farm is the. Like, he is a hungry person. He likes pies, he likes all kinds of things. And he imagines sort of gathering up all of this bounty with his wife and then telling all of the neighborhood boys to like, go suck an egg and like, get out of here. I. I own this farm. And so he's imagining this.

[A]

We've all been there. We've all been there.

[B]

Just wanted.

[A]

That's our head face, right?

[C]

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But remember, she's a flirt. He has a rival. There is a rival around town named Abraham von Brunt, or they call him Bronn van Brunt, or he has earned the nickname Brahm Bones. So among these the suitors for her hand, the most formidable was a burly, roaring, roistering blade of the name of Abraham, or according to the Dutch abbreviation, Brom van Brunt, the hero of the country round, which range with his feats of strength and hardihood. He was broad shouldered and double jointed, with short curly black hair and a bluff but not unpleasant countenance, having a mingled air of fun and arrogance. From his herculean frame and great powers of limb, he had received the nickname of Brom Bones, by which he was universally known. He was famed for great knowledge and skill in horsemanship. Being as dexterous on horseback as a tartar. He was foremost at all races and cockfights. And with the ascendancy which bodily strength always requires in rustic life. Was the umpire in all disputes. Setting his hat on one side. And giving his decisions with an air and tone. That admitted of no gainsay or appeal. He was always ready for either a fight or a frolic. But had more mischief than ill will in his composition. And with all his overbearing roughness. There was a strong dash of waggish good humor. At bottom, he had three or four boon companions. Who regarded him as their model. And at the head of whom he scoured the country. Attending every scene of feud or merriment for miles around in cold weather. He was distinguished by a fur cap surmounted with a flaunting fox's tail. And when the folks at a country gathering Descried this well known crest at a distance whisking about among a squad of hard riders. They always stood by for a squall. So basically, there's all these pranks and they ride by, and everyone's like, ah, there goes Brahm and his gang. And there's all his stuff at the bottom of it. And so this Rantipole hero had for some time singled out the blooming Katrina. For the object of his uncouth gallantries. And though his amorous toyings were something like the gentle caresses and endearments of a bear, yet it was. Isn't the writing so good?

[B]

Very good.

[C]

Yet it was whispered that she did not altogether discourage his hopes. Oh, certain it is. His advances were signals for rival candidates to retire. Who felt no inclination to cross a lion in his amours. Insomuch that when his horse was seen tied to Van Tassel's paling on a Sunday night. A sure sign that his master was courting. Or, as it termed, sparking within all other suitors passed by in despair. And carried the war into other quarters. And I love this last little bit. Such was the formidable rival with whom Ichabod Crane had to contend. And considering all these, a stouter man than he would have shrunk from the competition. And a wiser man would have despaired. He had, however, a happy mixture of pliability and perseverance. In his nature he was in form and spirit like a supple jack, yielding but tough. Though he bent, he never broke. And though he bowed beneath the slightest pressure. Yet the moment it was away, jerk. He was erect and carried his head as high as ever. So he has set himself up as the rival of this Brom van Runt. Yes, good old bones. And they are now going for the same hand. Before I go to the rest of the story. There's one great little quote here I profess. And this is from the writer. I profess not to know how women's hearts are wooed and won. To me, they have always been matters of riddle and admiration. Some seem to have but one vulnerable point or door of access. While others have a thousand avenues. And may be captured in a thousand different ways. It is a great triumph of skill to gain the former. But a still greater proof of generalship to maintain possession of the latter. For man must battle at his fortress, at every door and window. He who wins a thousand common hearts is therefore entitled to some renown. But he who keeps undisputed sway over the heart of a coquette is indeed a hero. Okay, so Brahm notices that good Ichabod is going after his girl Katrina and starts playing pranks. So they, like, break into the schoolhouse and mess up his stuff and just generally play pranks on him. And then comes the day of a great little festival gathering. Like a fall festival. All of the ladies are out with all of their pies, all of their sweets, all of their muffins. And Ichabod Crane is in heaven. Oh, he is in heaven. He gets himself kitted out in his finest gear. Let's see if I can actually read the description.

[A]

AJ this is kind of uncanny.

[C]

It's weird, isn't it? Like, especially. It's so weird.

[A]

Okay, except no man can rival you.

[C]

I mean, obviously the gallant Ichabod now spent at least an extra half hour at his toilet.

[A]

He's preparing to go to the festival now. This is no longer you.

[C]

Brushing and thanks. Brushing and furbishing up his best and indeed only suit of rusty black, black. And arranging his locks by a bit of broken looking glass that hung up in the schoolhouse. That he might make his appearance before his mistress. In the true style of a cavalier. He borrowed a horse from a farmer with whom he was domiciliated. A choleric old Dutchman of the name of Hans Van Ripper. And thus gallantly mounted. Issued forth like a knight errant in quest of adventures. But it is meet I should, in the true spirit of romantic story. Give some account of the looks and equipments of my hero and his steed. The animal he bestrode was a broken down plow horse that had outlived almost everything but its viciousness. He was gaunt, isn't that great? It's so funny. I was expecting a horror story and this is what I was getting.

[A]

Very charming.

[C]

He was gaunt and shagged, with an ewe neck and a head like a hammer. His rusty mane and tail were tangled and knotted with burrs. One eye had lost its pupil and was glaring and spectral. But the other had the gleam of genuine devil in it. Still, he must have had fire and metal in his day. If we may judge from the name he bore of gunpowder. He had in fact been a favorite steed of his masters, the choleric Van Ripper, who was a furious writer. And had infused very probably some of his own spirit into the animal. For old and broken down as he looked, there was more of the lurking devil in him than in any young filly in the country. Ichabod was a suitable figure for such a steed. He rode with short stirrups which brought his knees nearly up to the pommel of his saddle. His sharp elbows stuck out like a grasshoppers. He carried his whip perpendicularly in his hand like a scepter. And as his horse jogged on, the motion of his arms was not unlike the flapping of a pair of wings. A small wool hat rested on the top of his nose. For he was so scantily strip of forehead, for so his scanty strip of forehead might be called. And the skirts of his black coat fluttered out almost to the horse's tail. Such was the appearance of Ichabod and his steed. And as they shambled out the gate of Hans Van Ripper. And it was altogether such an apparition as is seldom to be met with in broad daylight.

[B]

It's incredible.

[C]

So he's looking great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right. He shows up. There's a big, long description of all of the pies and wonderful things at offer here. Well, he's got a great evening. He eats some pies and then he sort of makes his bid for. Oh, sorry. They dance. And he is, by the way, a fabulous dancer.

[B]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah. He's really good at it again, just like you, the uncanny siblings. So he's a great dancer. Everyone is impressed. I mean, he's a little bit lanky and janky and goes all over the place, but it's still fun to watch. And good Brahm Bones sits in the corner and broods over this.

[A]

Not a good dancer.

[C]

After the dance, he sits down and hears tales from. From these like old fellows of the country. I think Brahm being one of them. Usually some version of the tale is. You've got it, don't you? Yep, yep. Some version of the tale is that they meet the riders, roundabouts the stream, and then he will race your horse up to this wooden bridge and then he will disappear. He'll either knock you off the horse and then become a skeleton and, like, flop, flap off into the night. Or he'll, like, disappear in a float of fire or something. So he'll race you, and then at the bridge, go away. So after these tales, Ichabod makes his bid for Katrina. And he's like, girl, it's going to happen. Something goes wrong, for he leaves not with a happy but countenance, but with a sad one. Poor man has been rejected. He mounts Gunpowder and starts to head home. Donaldson, what do you think is going to happen?

[A]

I think Brahm is going to dress up as the headless horseman to mess with Ichabod, but then is going to see the actual headless horseman and freak out. That's what I think is going to happen.

[C]

Okay. Oh, interesting. All right, let's get to where we actually hit it. Okay, so I'm going to read you the encounter with the headless horse. Tell me what you think. As he approached the stream.

[A]

Who's the he?

[C]

This is Ichabod. On his way home, his heart began to thump. He summoned up, however, all his resolution, gave his horse half a score of kicks in the ribs. And attempted to dash briskly across the bridge. And remember, this is the height of horror in this little story. Attempted to dash briskly across the bridge. But instead of starting forward, the perverse old animal made a lateral movement and ran broadside against the fence. Ichabod, whose fears increased with the delay, jerked the reins to the other side and kicked lustily with the contrary foot. It was all in vain. His steed started, it's true, but it was only to plunge to the opposite side of the road Into a thicket of brambles and alder bushes. The schoolmaster now bestowed both whip and heel upon the starveling ribs of old Gunpowder, who dashed forward, snuffling and and snorting, but came to a stand just by the bridge with a suddenness that had nearly sent his rider sprawling over his head. Just at this moment, a plashy tramp by the side of the bridge caught the sensitive ear of Ibod. In the dark shadow of the grove on the margin of the brook, he beheld something huge, misshapen and towering. It stirred not, but seemed gathered up in the gloom like some gigantic monster ready to spring upon the traveler. The the hair of the affrighted pedagogue rose upon his head with terror. The hair of the affrighted. Oh, sorry. What was to be done? To turn and fly was now too late. And besides, what chance was there of escaping ghost or goblin, if such it was, which could ride upon the wings of the wind? Summoning up, therefore, a show of courage, he demanded in stammering accents, who are you? He received no reply. He repeated his demand in a still more agitated voice. Still there was no answer. Once more he cudgeled the sides of the inflexible Gunpowder, and shutting his eyes, broke forth with involuntary fervor into a psalm tune. Just then the shadowy object of alarm put itself in motion, and with a scramble and a bound, stood at once in the middle of the road. Though the night was dark and dismal, yet the form of the unknown might now in some degree be ascertained. He appeared to be a horseman of large dimensions, and mounted on a black horse of powerful frame. He made no offer of molestation or sociability, but kept aloof on one side of the road, Jogging along on the blind side of old Gunpowder, who had now got over his fright and waywardness. Kobad, who had no relish for this strange midnight companion and bethought himself of the adventure of Brahm bones with the galloping hessian, now quickened his steed in hopes of leaving him behind. That's so. He's remembering Brawn's story. The stranger, however, quickened his horse to an equal pace. Ichabod pulled up and fell into a walk, Thinking to lag behind. The other did the same. His heart began to sink within him. He endeavored to resume his psalm tune, but his parched tongue clove to the roof of his mouth and he could not utter a stave. There was something in the moody and dogged silence of this pertinacious companion that was mysterious and appalling. It was soon fearfully accounted for on mounting a rising ground, which brought the figure of his fellow traveler in relief against the sky. Gigantic in height and muffled in cloak, Ichabod was horror struck on perceiving that he was headless. But his horror was still more increased on observing that the head which should have been rested upon his shoulders was carried before him on the pommel of his saddle. His terror rose to desperation. He rained a shower of kicks and blows upon gunpowder, hoping by a sudden movement to give his companion the slip. But the specter started full jump within him away. Then they dashed through the thick and thin stones flying and sparks flashing at Every bound, Ichabod's flimsy garment fluttered in the air. As he stretched his long, lanky body away over his horse's head in the eagerness of his flight. They had now reached the road, which turns. So let's see. Okay. So they get to the church. Basically, his whole saddle slides off without him. So off the back of the horse. And that's a bummer because it was the guy's like, Sunday saddle. And he's trying to hang onto this horse. And he's slipping left and slipping right. And, like, getting banged against the horse's backbone. And eventually he falls clean off the horse. After the headless horseman throws the head at him. And it hits him, kind of knocks himself clean unconscious. And then the rider just up and away goes away. He doesn't show up the next day for class. In fact, he doesn't show up anymore at all. Later, a man will come from town and say that he knows of an Ichabod that has since entered law school and become a local judge or something like that. And then he's very much alive and he's totally okay. And this doesn't really surprise anybody because he didn't really have anywhere to live. He didn't. Like, all his money was on his person. He didn't have a whole lot of effects. So the locals say that the headless horsemen took him. And whenever they do, Brom smiles a little bit. What they found next to Ichabod's, like, the saddle was a pumpkin. So, like a broken pumpkin. So obviously he dressed up, ran, like. Just rode his horse next to Ichabod, freaked him out, threw a pumpkin at him, and then the guy left. And there's like a moral of the story at the end, but that's as scary as it gets. It's really just a delightful story about a goofy school teacher getting bullied.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Who got a little bullied.

[A]

The big guy won, the bully won.

[C]

But the thing is, American tale, it doesn't really paint. It doesn't really paint Ichabod as a great guy anyway. Because he wants to marry this girl. Not for her, but for, like, the.

[B]

Farm for her farm.

[C]

Which isn't like, not. Not cool, dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Anyway, that's awesome. It's.

[B]

It's a great story.

[C]

A hilarious tale.

[A]

I must be remembering. I. As you're saying this, I can, like, see the cartoon in my mind. There must be like a Disney cartoon or something. Because in that cart now I'm remembering. I'm pretty sure that Brahm at the end of the Cartoon sees the real Headless Horseman and that scares him. And it's kind of like that doesn't happen here. That doesn't happen.

[C]

Not at all. He doesn't see the Headless Horseman. There is no head. Like, it's just Brahm throwing pumpkins. And later at the very end, does.

[A]

He marry the flirt?

[C]

I think so. Yeah.

[A]

He's got it.

[C]

He wins. He gets the lady. And then after that, there's like a time when it tells that this old man was telling this story and there was some furrow browed older gentleman there and he's like, what? So apparently he hears the story about his own encounter and then he gets mad and it gives you the moral of the story.

[A]

But that was Ichabod later as an old.

[C]

Yeah, Ichabod, like heard the story and got mad. Didn't laugh through the whole thing, just sat there frustrated.

[A]

What's moral?

[C]

I can't hear. Let me jump to it.

[A]

Don't be a stick in the mud or.

[C]

Okay. There is no situation in life but has its advantages and pleasures provided we will take a joke as we find it that therefore he that runs races with Goblin troopers is likely to have rough writing of it. Ergo, for a country schoolmaster to be refused the hand of a Dutch heiress is a certain step to high preferment in the state.

[A]

So it's just like, get over it, bro.

[C]

Or kind of. Yeah, like, take a joke, buddy.

[A]

Just kidding.

[C]

Isn't that great?

[A]

That's pretty charming.

[C]

I was not like as compared with something by H.P. lovecraft. And I was expecting them to be very similar. This is not at all. And it's really funny to me, the lengths that this story has now run, right? There's headless horsemen, all kinds of stuff. And it really is a picture of true terror with like a flaming pumpkin head. Nope, not.

[B]

None of that.

[C]

None of that. Just a hilarious.

[A]

A Dutch farm, bro.

[C]

Just a Dutch farm dunking on the schoolmaster, which is great. Okay, let's talk Washington.

[A]

Washington.

[C]

Okay, so Washington Irving, his parents, William Irving Senior and Sarah Saunders, him from Scotland, her from England. Married in 1761. They had 11 children, three of which died like young. Washington was the youngest. He was the littlest guy. They were settled in Manhattan of the merchant class. And he was born the week the Revolutionary War ended. He was named after George Washington, who he met when he was six. There is a watercolor painting of that moment in his like still hanging in his house. And he met Washington just before he became president, before he was inaugurated, which is an awesome story. He was not a very good student. He loved to play hooky and watch plays. He started writing at Letters to the paper about the drama scene nearby at the age of 19 under the pseudonym Jonathan Oldstyle. He uses a lot of pseudonyms and they're all pretty silly. Right after that. They took two years traveling in Europe to make sure that he didn't get hit by this plague that was going through or just for his health. He skipped a lot of the important things like Florence, Venice. Mostly he just went to nice dinners and developed a very friendly style that made him a very popular person to have to dinner. He went home after that and studied law, but again, not a great student. He barely passed the bar. He created a literary magazine with his brother and friend and they wrote under the pseudonyms William wizard and Lancelot Langstaff. They had moderate success and in it he nicknamed New York Gotham, which means goats town. So if you're wondering what city Gotham is, it's New York because it's literally named by him to be Gotham. So one of those fun little source things. He wrote a thing called A History of New York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty by Diedrich Knickerbocker while mourning the death of his 17 year old fiance. It was a major book of satire. And he started a hoax before releasing it about the death of the author Diedrich Knickerbocker. That he was like missing. He put a whole bunch of ads in local newspapers that this guy was missing. And then by a hotel that said if he's not found and pays his bill, we're going to release his manuscript. And then he released his book and so in it. Well, so from that that guy, Diedrich Knickerbocker. Knickerbocker became the nickname for everybody who stays in Manhattan, all Manhattan residents. And would become the name of the New York Knickerbockers.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

New York Knicks is where that comes from.

[A]

And also like the Knickerbocker crisis of when of the first stock market crash that created the Federal Reserve. We talk about it in episode 100. And something of classical stuff you should know.

[C]

Yeah, isn't this crazy far? He's Gotham and the name of the Knicks have both come from this guy.

[B]

It's big.

[C]

One of the first magazine. He was one of the first magazine editors to publish the poem defense of Fort McHenry which would become the Star Spangled Banner. He left after the War of 1812, which I think he opposed to salvage the Family business, which was in bad straits. And he stayed away from America for 17 years.

[A]

Where did he live?

[C]

He was all over. He was in London, France, Spain. He eventually declared bankruptcy. He met Walter Scott and became lifelong friends with Walter Scott. He composed Rip Van Winkle. While staying with Sarah and her husband, he published along with others as a book called the Sketchbook of Jeffrey Cran. So another pseudonym, Jeff Cran. Like crayon. Crayon. It was a big success. Writers. Then he hit writer's block and he started to travel to overcome it.

[A]

Do you say crayon or crayon?

[C]

I say crayon.

[B]

How do you say crayon?

[A]

Crayon.

[C]

You say crayon.

[B]

Two syllables.

[A]

I say crayon, you say crayon.

[C]

It must be a northwest thing.

[A]

So the name is.

[C]

How do you spell it? Jeffrey? C, R, A, Y, O, N. Crayon.

[B]

Crayon, yeah.

[C]

So then he eventually overcame his writer's block and published a new book called Bracebridge hall which had. It was kind of the same kind of thing, which was a bunch of short stories altogether largely positive reception. Then more writer's block. He went to stay in an inn in Dresden where he impressed the royal family and developed, at 39 years old, feelings for an 18 year old girl named Emily Gross. She refused him, as she should. He went to Paris. In Paris he learned that Mary Shelley, who wrote Frankenstein, had romantic interest in him.

[A]

What? I know she's married.

[C]

This might have been before. But he never pursued the relationship.

[A]

She wasn't Mary Shelley then, was she? She was Mary Wollstonecraft or whatever.

[C]

Oh yeah, whatever. Anyway, it was her writer of Frankenstein. Then he went to Madrid, began publishing books about Spain, including a history of the life and voyages of Christopher Columbus, which would run to 175 editions. It was a mixture of truth and fiction. And it is also the source of the durable myth that medievals thought the world was flat. That whole thing that Christopher Columbus was proving the world was round was from that book.

[A]

He made it up.

[C]

He made it up. Not true. So if you're wondering where that myth came from, this guy.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

He was appointed in Grenada as the Secretary of the American Legation in London and then left for England. He worked out a trade deal between the US and British West Indies and then got a medal from the Royal Society of Literature. He has had a crazy life.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

More publishing and then he would eventually return to the US.

[A]

He's like the Chaucer of the 19th century.

[C]

I know, it's awesome. And then he would return to the US in 1832. He did some traveling, made some bad investments, published a history of the fur trading and one of the prairie. Did some other thoroughly American writing after people were like, you're not even like American anymore because he'd been gone for so long. So he wrote some stuff. He bought a house, continued to publish. He was often approached by younger authors wanting, like, his comments on their books, including a young fellow named Poe Edgar Allen. He backed copyright laws, which I think weren't put into effect then, but would come into effect later. He retired to Sunnyside and published some biographies, including one of George Washington, which he expected to be his masterpiece. And just after finishing that was when he had his heart attack and died. He became chairman of the library that would eventually be the New York Public Library. His last words were rumored to be, well, I must arrange my pillows for another night. When will this end? So he is Irvington, New Jersey is named after him. Knickerbocker, Texas, was named after him by two of his nephews. He is, weirdly, the source of Santa's sleigh. He was the first to depict St. Nick flying through the air.

[A]

Oh, did he write in a wagon? Did he write Night Before Christmas? No, that's the guy whose name no one ever remembers. No.

[C]

And there are some poems that, like, more specifically say it is a sleigh, but the image of a flying wagon piloted by St. Nick. That was him. So he invented Gotham. He invented Santa. He was the source of the New York Knicks. He did so many things that are just wild.

[A]

He rejected Mary Shelley.

[C]

Rejected Mary Shelley. He was friends with Walter.

[A]

It's probably a good dodge, that one.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Wow. So life. Yeah, dude lived a crazy life. Like, that was a fun discovery afterwards to find out that, like, Gotham came from him and so did Santa and all of that stuff. Okay, so also did a little investigate. So that's him. We don't have to talk more about him. Just crazy life.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I did some investigation into Halloween. Do you guys know where it comes from? What's Halloween?

[B]

All Hallows Eve. Right.

[A]

It's the night before. It's the night before All Saints day. So presumably it's probably got some kind of like, I wonder, does it have any sort of like medieval folklore tradition where it was the night before All Saints, you had to, like, chase away the demons? Or is that an American invention? Was it a European thing or was it purely American?

[C]

Well, I mean, the weird thing is there's a whole lot of traditions over a long span of time for Halloween because there's the.

[A]

There's in. Yeah. In sort of Christian and. And more of the sort of Christian folklore things. You always have these little like the day of the dead or before a big festival, you before some sort of big solemn thing, like a big church service the night before. You have a bit of a. Like a festival outside with like fires and masks. And that's a very sort of folk level.

[C]

Yeah. Mumming. Like the whole mask thing has been around for a very long time and it wasn't just for Halloween.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So.

[A]

So you would do that before Lent. You would do that before or not before? Yeah, before Lent. You would do that before big feast days. And so I've often just sort of assumed that Halloween was kind of like the continuation of that. But then taking on. I associate it with more as an American thing. Like even in Canada, it's not like let's celebrate the British heritage of Halloween, which is what we do everything in Canada. Celebrate our British heritage of X, Y and Z. Yep. I've always associated Halloween as an American holiday.

[C]

Yeah. So our version of it is certainly Americanized.

[A]

I don't think there is another version of it though.

[C]

They're kind of.

[A]

Well, they're like Italian Halloween.

[C]

I mean, kind.

[B]

So it's like a Celtic thing.

[C]

It all starts with All Hallows Day, which is All Saints Day.

[B]

You are correct.

[A]

Happy All Saints Day.

[C]

So today is All Saints Day. It's November 1st. So Halloween is All Hallows Day.

[A]

Martin Luther.

[C]

So the eve of All Hallows Day.

[B]

Also Reformation.

[A]

He hammered the theses on the door. 99 problems.

[C]

Thank you, Catholicism. A1.

[A]

Romans 8:1.

[B]

Unreal.

[A]

Romans 8:1.

[C]

What's Romans 8:1?

[A]

Keep going. I can't remember.

[C]

Well, now I'm curious.

[A]

I got 99 problems with Romans 8:1. You heard that one?

[C]

No.

[A]

Therefore now no condemnation for those words.

[C]

That's fantastic. Oh my word. Okay, so All Saints day is a day to remember the dead, including the saints, the martyrs and the faithful departed. So it's not just celebrating Catholic saints, it's celebrating the saints. So Graham, if you had died and I was celebrating All Hallows Day, I'd be celebrating. Appreciate it as a saint.

[A]

For all the saints. Dun dun dun dun dun dun. I don't know the words.

[C]

So that was the one feature of Ichabod Crane that I thought was more like you than it was like me. Like this. Singing loud. Okay, so it is All Saints day. And there's.

[A]

I make up little songs when. Like by my bye bye. When I'm by myself. I will start singing the thing that I'm doing.

[C]

Oh, I do that too. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm making my dinner, going to make some food tonight. Yeah, I do that at.

[C]

You don't do that at all.

[B]

Never done that.

[C]

I do like doing laundry, putting stuff in the bin. Bam, bam, bam, bam. Cycle like. You don't do none of that.

[B]

Listeners weigh in. This sounds insane to me. No, I've never. I don't do that.

[A]

Whenever I talk to my dog. I reimagine Elton John songs. Okay, so there's Rennie and the Jets.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Thought I saw Rennie tonight on a plane. And I sing to my dog all the time by the pale moonlight, wagging his tail at me. And I said, rennie pup, you're the greatest dog. Yeah, I do it all day long. Yeah. Anyway, sorry.

[C]

Okay. So there's a lot of traditions that come from that. But originally Christian day like and the setting of the day, there's some contention about who did it. But again, it's the eve of All Saints Day. So part of it is a fall festival. It is the death of the year. Right. It is coming into the colder half of the year. So as like nature dies, so you celebrate death. Trick or treating began in the 15th century when in England children would go door to door to get soul cakes. In exchange for praying for the dead, they would carry lanterns made of soul cake. A soul cake is. I mean I could look, hold on, look it up.

[B]

You know, small round cake with sweet spices. It resembles a shortbread biscuit.

[C]

Yeah, right. I'd go door to door for one.

[B]

Of those for sure.

[C]

They would carry lanterns made of hollowed out turnips. And later these jack o lanterns were used to ward off equals evil spirits. Turnips were used in England most of the time they wear war, they wore costumes. Either may have been to ward off vengeful ghosts. So tradition said that departed souls wandered earth until All Saints Day when they would be like sent off. And because this was the eve of All Saints Day, if you were a vengeful ghost, it was your last chance to take vengeance. And so if you had a ghost that might have been after you, it was a good idea to wear a costume and confuse him because they wouldn't.

[A]

Know how to come for you.

[C]

Right then they wouldn't come for you.

[B]

Got it.

[C]

In France they had a thing called the dance macabre where they thought that the dead would sort of like rise up for one last party. And they would often sort of reenact this with masks and they would do sort of have their own like dance macabre. Some would dress as corpses, etc. To sort of like imitate this last dance. So those like All Saints Day traditions are mixed with the traditions from Scottish Irish Sam Hain. So this is a pagan holiday where souls would go door to door looking for hospitality and children would imitate that going door to door. And they would do mischief if they weren't received with hospitality and find food. They also use the turnips. They played divination games, had like bonfires. It was very much about like spirits and evil spirits and fairies and that sort of thing. All of this was about 1700 on the Puritans when they, you know, when the new world was established, opposed Halloween. But they also opposed a bunch of other church traditional holidays. It wasn't like they picked Halloween out because it had pagan roots.

[A]

But Presbyterians didn't celebrate Christmas until like 1930 something.

[C]

Exactly. And so it was opposed by the Puritans, but they opposed a lot of things. So it's not like this one squeaked through. Even though, you know, even though it was kind of pagan. Trick or treating in its current state didn't really begin until the 1930s. So that's relatively recent. So if you were thinking that Halloween has only pagan roots, it does not. The day, it being an eve of something. All of that comes from Christian tradition. Some of the traditions, like a little bit of the trick or treating is maybe from Samhain, but there's also, you know, like the soul cakes, which was a Christian thing. The carving of the turnip into a face, I'm pretty sure that was a Samhain thing. And the reason we switched to pumpkins was because they were much softer and easier to carve and I think lighter to carry and honestly, turnips. So they would use pumpkins instead, which makes sense. And they were sort of a neutral thing I think either to like, like ward off evil spirits or. One of the. One of the rumors is that a Jack o Lantern was about this guy that ends up in neither heaven or hell. Let me see if I can find the little tale. So en route home, after a night's drinking, Jack encounters the devil and tricks him into climbing a tree. A quick thinking Jack etches the sign of the cross into the bark and traps the devil in the tree. Jack strikes a bargain that Satan can never claim his soul when he comes down. Right. I'll let you go if you can't take my soul. After a life of sin, drink and mendacity, Jack is refused entry into heaven. When he dies, he's been a jerk keeping his promise. The devil refuses to let Jack into hell and throws a live coal straight from the fires of hell at him. It's a cold night, so Jack places the coal in a hollowed out turnip to stop it from going out. Since which time Jack and his lantern have been roaming, looking for a place to rest. So that's kind of where the Jack o lantern comes from. Okay, so you know a little bit more about it. The traditions are long and varied and storied, but largely come from All Saints Day, which is a day specifically to pray for the saints, honor the dead, think about death. And then the Eve of that is apparently like in some traditions where because, you know, the year is dying, nature is dying, the. The veil between the spiritual and the physical has become thinner. And so they're wandering ghosts and that sort of thing. Some of it certainly pagan, some of it definitely Christian. So after knowing this, how do you guys feel about celebrating Halloween?

[A]

I have always been fine with celebrating Halloween.

[B]

Yeah, I tend to be pretty uncomplicated with these things. I will say going trick or treating. Last night was the first time where my kids were genuinely scared of some of the things we saw while we were out. But that, I mean, you're asking about the origins of it. Do the origins influence that?

[C]

I mean, the origins are why a lot of people don't.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I understand there being the historical connection to the church calendar. I think someone who disagrees and doesn't want to celebrate because of how it looks today as compared to where it comes from historically, I would not begrudge them that. If they were like, I don't really want to see scary stuff.

[A]

Some people do really gruesome things on their yard and stuff.

[C]

They really do kind of nasty. And also the whole Halloween is an excuse to dress as a sexy cat.

[A]

What's the history of that one? Sound like an ancient tradition from the.

[C]

From this famous group known as the Spice Girls.

[B]

Thank you. Yes.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

Soul Cake. Not Spice Cake. Oh, Spice Cake. Soul Cake's a great name. That's great for a pop band.

[C]

That actually would be pretty good.

[A]

I. I also grew up. And this didn't really come into Canada too much. I'm. It's probably more in the United States, But I did grow up during the era of like, kind of the evangelical panic around Halloween, where they tried. Where churches and youth groups tried to put on their own, like, rival Halloween things at church that were always significantly Lamer than going and getting candy. It was. And usually they have these little morality tales. So it was like, you know what's really scary? Teenage drinking. And you're like. And you have to, like, watch these little plays about. About, like, you know, teenage teens getting into trouble and stuff. I definitely had a Halloween or two in high school where we grew up going to a church where there was like, no. It was like, the only young people at the church were me and my sister. And then my parents were like, why don't you go to this big church youth group? And we went and it had one of those plays where it was on Halloween night. It was this depiction of, like, kids drinking and sleeping together and then dying in car accidents.

[C]

Oh, my gosh, they're hitting all the big ones.

[A]

And then it was like, you know, wow, that's the real scary thing of Halloween is, like, debauch sin and depravity. And you're like, oh, I could have just gone and got candy. And I watched this.

[C]

Yeah, I. I feel like our version is significantly separated from even the superstitions. Like, at this point, it's just about dressing up and finding candy and maybe going to a party. That's what the American tradition seems to be. Except those who worship nefarious things.

[A]

That's right. I think you need to ring the doorbell and someone needs to come and put candy in your bag. People who just, like, put their bowl of candy and say, just take one, are lazy and deserve getting their bowl of candy emptied by one person.

[B]

No. Can I ask you a question? So I took my kids trick or treating last night. We set a bowl of candy out because we were not at the house. Do I also. Am I also lazy?

[A]

I feel like you need to leave a delegate. I feel like I don't want to.

[B]

Miss out on my kids. Go and trick or treat.

[A]

Yeah, I guess that's true. You can't do shifts or something.

[B]

We could have.

[A]

How do you know that one kid doesn't just come and drain your bowl?

[B]

First off, I don't care because, like, I've done my part by setting the candy out. And second, no one did because when we came back, there was candy.

[A]

That's. That's fine.

[C]

Usually they're parents with the kids. It depends on your neighborhood, I think.

[B]

Yeah, but there are some.

[A]

I went trick or treating by myself. My parents didn't go with me.

[C]

It was the 80s. Magical time, bro.

[A]

The 90s. Yeah. I never once went with my parents.

[B]

It must have been some age where.

[A]

Maybe probably, like, From. From the time that I can remember. Like, from, like, maybe age 7 and on, I would just, like, dress up like Spider man, but then have to put my snowsuit over my costume and.

[C]

Then walk five miles to the nearest house.

[A]

Already freezing cold in Canada. And you get to everybody's house and they're like, what are you? And you have to unzip your jacket and be like, spider man and then zip it back up because it was so cold out. But, yeah, we just won't buy ourselves, I guess. You know, this is, you know, you guys are worried about your kids getting.

[B]

Snatched or it's also just fun.

[A]

Well, your kids are young. Your kids are really young.

[B]

Yeah, they are.

[C]

Yeah. I think the modern version is largely fine. I think, if anything, my reaction wouldn't necessarily be, I'm not going to celebrate this. It would be, let's bring back some of the traditions around All Saints Day and actually, like, think about death and think about the saints and think about the departed faithful that I've lost and think about, like, mortality. It's kind of the same thing that we talked about in the ama, where there. It's a healthy thing to occasionally think about our death and to think about the dark things. And there's catharsis on the other side. And so sort of maybe strip some of the pagan elements out of it and then restore sort of the Christian liturgical tradition to it, but then also maybe go dress up and have some candy. Like, there's.

[A]

Last night. I did none of that. I watched baseball.

[C]

I prepared this podcast. So you are. You're welcome podcast. Thanks for stealing my Halloween.

[A]

And did you. Are you gonna have any candy of your kids? Candy? What do you do? Do you let them have all the candy or.

[B]

Absolutely not. No, I've already started eating their candy. What are you talking about? So I have three kids.

[A]

It's a lot of candy.

[B]

It is a lot of candy. My youngest is one about to turn two and, like, he collected candy last night and he will not eat that candy. Right. Like, that's all for me. And then we'll leave it in the house. I'm sorry if I'm, like, spoiling. My kids sometimes listen to the podcast. So, like, it'll be out for a few days and then it will disappear probably Tuesday or Wednesday next week. And then it's like, out of the house at that point. So it's like a little mini feast up until then, and then it's gone.

[A]

You are ensuring some future therapist has a job.

[B]

But kids just forget about things they Will not remember that we had candy after the point that it's removed from the.

[A]

Do you do the, like, where you take all their toys and, like, only give them a third of their toys and then cycle through their toys?

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

The toy cycle is genius.

[B]

Very important.

[C]

Yeah. I'm stealing that for my. If I ever have kids, like, locked.

[B]

Up, like, they can't just go and get the old toys. They have to wait till it's set out. Yeah. And then we don't have to buy new things because every time we bring it out, it's something new.

[A]

Amanda does that with art pieces we have in our house.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

Half of them, like, two thirds of them are in. Are in the closet. And then so it's like, seasonal. So it's like, then now it's. Now it's time for the fall art.

[C]

And working with spring art, then. The studio has been so fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

She's so, like, passionate about. I love it.

[A]

She very loves ceramics. Cool. Well, this has been classical stuff. You should know. Spooky Edition.

[C]

If you're looking for something actual spooky, read HP Lovecraft or go eat Dracula. Those are both great.

[A]

Okay. And I'm gonna throw a pumpkin at AJ in the parking lot.

[B]

Do it.

[A]

Freak him out.

[B]

He'll never come back to work.

[A]

Oh, that's true.

[C]

I don't want that.

[B]

Don't do that.

[C]

But I'll. But then he will work in the state.

[A]

Yeah. He'll be a lawyer. My name is Graham. You and A.J. and Thomas, you can email us at the guys Classical stuff dot net. You can find us on Classical stuff on X.

[B]

You so derisive.

[A]

I'm just. It's so stupid.

[C]

It is. Yeah.

[A]

If you change the name to X, you can't talk about tweeting anymore because it doesn't make any sense. The metaphor is gone.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Twitter bird tweeting. Now it's just like, what? Xing. That's weird.

[C]

So weird.

[A]

No. Twote to the raven. And you can find [e-mail] where we post our episodes. You can find us on Patreon, where we do monthly amas. And we have. I finally figured out how to get chat on my phone. So I've been chatting more on the chat. You can see pictures of me eating.

[C]

Cake because I paid up. I paid up on the.

[A]

Oh, yes. For people who are not on the Patreon. I did get my cake from that episode. And we had AJ over for dinner and ate cake.

[B]

Wonderful.

[A]

And your dog tried to get some, and my dog tried to get some, and I shut it down. Poor dog.

[B]

Tough.

[A]

And we. We have also various other kinds of things on the ama. There's been a singular push for the oracle to come back. So we'll have to bring the oracle back. Or the bombastic Bushkin will, I don't know, send anthrax through the mail or something.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, I hope not.

[A]

Cool. All right, guys.

[C]

Well, on that note.

[A]

On that note, bye.

[C]

Bye.