289: John Bunyan and Babe le bœuf bleu

Summary

Podcast Summary: Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 289: John Bunyan and Babe le bœuf bleu
Date: December 9, 2025
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Episode Overview

In this lively and humorous episode, the hosts turn their attention from their usual deep dives into antiquity and the ancient world, jumping forward to the 17th century to discuss the Puritan classic, The Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan. The episode explores Bunyan’s biography, the enduring appeal and allegorical nature of his work, and its influence on literature and culture. The team approaches the book as both a children’s and adults’ text, debating its merits, accessibility, and relevance, while peppering the discussion with personal anecdotes, tangents (such as the Paul Bunyan/Babe the Blue Ox mix-up), and tongue-in-cheek banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was John Bunyan?

• Background:
  • Englishman, born 1628 in Bedfordshire; son of a tinkerer.
  • Early life included military service, two marriages, and four children.
  • Not originally religious—experienced a gradual conversion.
• Imprisonment for Nonconformity:
  • Bunyan became a “nonconformist” preacher—refused to align strictly with Church of England mandates (06:54).
  • Imprisoned for 12 years for conducting unsanctioned religious services, and later again for similar reasons.
  • "He ends up in prison for 12 years because of not wanting to conform and follow to the Church of England.” (08:05, Thomas)
  • Family endured hardship during his imprisonment, surviving on charity.

2. Writing & Influence

• Prolific Output:
  • During imprisonment, Bunyan wrote extensively, including The Pilgrim’s Progress (1678) and over 40 other works.
• Structure and Legacy:
  • Pilgrim’s Progress was a later work in his life, published about 10 years before his death.
  • Multiple parts: Part one (Christian’s journey), Part two (Christiana’s journey), and a less-authentic third part (“Tender Conscience”).

3. Pilgrim's Progress: Story and Allegory

• Allegorical Structure:
  • Story of “Christian” (formerly “Graceless”) traveling from the “City of Destruction” to the “Celestial City” (Heaven).
  • Names are deliberately “on the nose”—characters like Obstinate, Pliable, Faithful, Despair, and Help represent internal or spiritual qualities.
  • “There’s no question of what the author is doing at any point throughout this.” (19:34, Thomas)
• Intended Use:
  • Written for broad audiences, children and adults alike, and meant for reflection and meditation, not just narrative enjoyment.
  • “It is a practical book... not meant to be rushed through, but could be very profitable to the person who wants to spend time with it.” (57:31, Thomas)

Key Plot Points and Symbolism

• Departure:
  • Christian realizes his soul is burdened; the city is doomed, but his family won’t leave. He follows “Evangelist” towards salvation (26:44).
• Slough of Despond:
  • Early setback—a bog representing despair (30:05).
• Wicket Gate and Worldly Wiseman:
  • Christian is misled by “Mr. Worldly Wiseman” into seeking easy solutions (33:10).
• Allegorical Encounters:
  • Journey is marked by figures like Interpreter, Goodwill, Apollyon (Abaddon from Revelation), and Faithful.
  • Christian fights Apollyon for “over half a day” (46:18), representing enduring spiritual struggle.
• Valley of the Shadow of Death:
  • Depicts severe internal and external trials.
• Vanity Fair:
  • A city of distraction and commerce; Christian and Faithful refuse to participate and are persecuted (48:16).
• Doubting Castle/Giant Despair:
  • Christian is imprisoned but escapes with the key called “Promise,” symbolizing hope and perseverance (50:58).
• Approach to Celestial City:
  • Passage through “Delectable Mountains,” rivers representing death, and final assessment at the gates.
  • “There was a way to hell even from the gates of heaven as well as from the city of destruction.” (55:48, Thomas quoting Bunyan)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He ends up in prison for 12 years because of not wanting to conform and follow to the Church of England. So obviously the bad guy in the story, right?” (08:05, Thomas)
• “It’s a very famous, important book. You’ll see people like, I think it’s Spurgeon, who read it like a hundred times...” (16:01, Thomas)
• “There’s no question of what the author is doing at any point throughout this. And there are benefits to that.” (19:34, Thomas)
• “If I’m in the slough of despond, I need hope. What does that hope look like?” (56:50, Thomas)
• “You don’t end this with, like, Christian rules. It’s that God rules.” (58:49, Thomas)
• “It may not make you feel smart, but I think you’ll get much more out of this book than those others.” (61:15, Thomas)

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Episode Structure & Important Timestamps

• 00:11 – 01:30 | Intro and Banter

  • Hosts joke about “progressivism,” set up the Pilgrim’s Progress discussion, and riff on illustrated versions.

• 02:11 – 10:00 | John Bunyan’s Life & Imprisonment

  • Differences between John and Paul Bunyan (Babe le bœuf bleu), Bunyan's background, laws against religious nonconformity, the cost to his family, and his eventual pardon.

• 10:00 – 17:40 | Publication, Structure, and Reception of Pilgrim’s Progress

  • Bunyan’s prolific writing, structure of the book(s), influences across culture.
  • Pilgrim’s Progress references in “Little Women” (16:01), and anti-Catholic elements in the original text (17:43).

• 18:04 – 24:09 | Is Pilgrim’s Progress an Allegory? Literary Musings

  • Discussion of allegory, archetypes, and the book’s overt symbolism (20:46).

• 24:09 – 37:54 | Walking Through Part 1: Key Events and Lessons

  • Plot overview, introductions to central characters and their names, the explicit nature of its symbolism.
  • The “Slough of Despond,” “Help,” and the first challenges (30:05).
  • Misadventure with “Worldly Wiseman” and legality (33:10), “Interpreter” showing allegorical lessons (40:01), and receiving new garments at the cross.

• 40:01 – 53:53 | Christian’s Progress and Spiritual Encounters

  • Major temptations and conflicts (Apollyon/Abaddon fight at 44:49), evangelical lessons.
  • Vanity Fair: consumerism, false accusers, Faithful’s martyrdom, direct ascension; persistence in the journey (48:16, 50:23).

• 53:53 – 61:32 | Endings, Interpretations & Reflections

  • Arrival at the Celestial City, final twist of “Ignorance” at the gates (55:48), concluding poem, and host wrap-up on the book’s value.
  • “Is it kitsch, is it too simplistic, or ultimately profitable?” (60:14)

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Highlights & Host Commentary

• On the Book’s Simplicity:
  • “What is this book? This is a book meant for meditation. It's a book meant for contemplation... It's a lot of talking, it's a lot of reflecting on these events and what they mean.” (56:05, Thomas)
• On Archetypes and Application:
  • “It’s a book that teaches you how to think of the events of your life in light of the sort of overarching gospel story... It almost, like, trivializes your problems and you say, I just need to keep going...” (57:31–58:10, Graeme)
• On Practical Value:
  • “You’re not meant to suss the meaning of this book... It’s on the page.” (60:59, Thomas)
  • “You may think your life is complex, but which of these stories lines up? Actually, things aren’t as complicated as you think they are.” (61:34, Thomas)
• On Reading Experience:
  • “Not meant to be rushed through, but I think could be very profitable to the person who wants to spend time with it.” (57:31, Thomas)

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Running Humor & Personality

• Babe le bœuf bleu/Paul Bunyan Mix-up:
  Graeme forces the “Babe le bœuf bleu” translation, mystifying Thomas, and leading to a brief detour into folklore (02:11–03:20).
• Pizza Eating & Listener Complaints:
  Self-referential joking about eating on mic and responding to listener feedback, adding levity and approachability (05:36–06:22).
• On-the-Nose Allegory: Hosts repeatedly emphasize just how explicit and literal Bunyan’s allegory is (“on the nose” becomes a running gag, 13:39, 18:25, 19:34).
• Speculation on Bunyan's Theology:
  Humorous asides about the theological implications of losing one's “Celestial City ticket” and how John Calvin would feel about it (43:38).

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Recommendations & Takeaways

• Pilgrim’s Progress remains a valuable tool for reflection, meditation, and teaching—especially for children or those new to Christian allegory.
• While it might come across as “kitsch” or unsophisticated compared to more opaque literary works, its accessibility and directness are part of its enduring appeal.
• Host consensus: Read it slowly, reflectively, not for literary “prestige,” but as a practical, spiritual guide.

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Memorable Quote to Conclude:

“You may think your life is complex, but which of these stories lines up? Actually, things aren’t as complicated as you think they are. Like you’re a sinner and you need to repent. Or you’ve been led astray by your own desires. Don’t over complicate.”
(61:34–61:52, Thomas)

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Next Time:
The hosts tease the possibility of examining Part II or even Part III of Pilgrim’s Progress in a future episode, and encourage listeners to appreciate simplicity in life and in reading.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everybody, and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know. We're a podcast about the classics. Mostly. We talk about books, we talk about philosophy. We talk about the ancient world. Also sometimes teaching, also sometimes other things. My name is AJ Hanenberg. I am joined by Thomas Magbee.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

And Graham Donaldson.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

And today we're talking about real progressivism. Where it started.

We are focused on progress. Today we feel like we've been too much in the past. We're done with that. We're going to talk only about the future.

[C]

Would you say we're going on a journey?

[B]

Somebody call it a pilgrimage?

[A]

Yeah, you could call it that, Maybe.

[B]

Nailed it. Today we're talking about Pilgrim's Progress, the.

[C]

Most progressive of all.

[B]

I was thinking, I was like, that really? Would be quite the opposite. So, gentlemen, have you all read this book before? The Pilgrim's Progress?

[C]

I think I only have. Only read, like, a kid's version of it.

[B]

Is it illustrated?

[C]

Yeah, it does rule.

[B]

Let's do this first. The best way to read this book. Don't read this John Bunyan nonsense that I'm going to read from today. There's a version. I think it's Helen Taylor, Joe Sutphen. It's an illustrated little. Pilgrim's Progress. Did not expect to get here in the first 60 seconds of the podcast. It is incredible. Read that. Yeah. All right, that's it. Let's shut the podcast down. Okay. Yeah. Old books are dumb. Don't read the original, don't read the new one.

[C]

We can perfect them.

[A]

Read the new illustrated version.

[B]

It is better. It has animals, and it cuts out some of the parts that are less great about the old version, which I probably won't even cover.

[A]

Most stories are better with animals.

[B]

This is true. So name one story. You can't do it.

[A]

Star Wars. Weird animals.

[C]

Okay, trying to think.

[B]

I thought you were gonna propose one where Luke became a lion or something.

[A]

But no, they already have weird animals.

[C]

World War I was worse with horses.

[B]

Oh, this is tough, man. What way to.

[A]

Yeah, but imagine World War I without horses.

[C]

Would be way better.

[B]

Well, probably.

[A]

Why would it be better?

[C]

Because those poor horses would get blowed up.

[B]

Yeah, this is really took. Sorry, sorry. Keep going. I went from pill to progress.

[A]

We're going to start over.

[B]

Could we please just. The whole podcast, actually, at this point? Okay, so, book written by John Bunyan. I'm sure we all know John Bunyan. Giant lumberjack, had a blue ox.

Very important to North American loggers.

[C]

What the heck are you talking about?

[B]

Paul Bunyan. Do you Know who Paul Bunyan is? Oh, I thought this was a Canadian thing also. No. There's this guy who's a giant lumberjack and he has a blue ox. His name's Paul Bunyan and he is not the same as John Bunyan. This is probably the best way we could have found this out. So he's, like, famous in what? Thank you.

[A]

I thought this was universal. I thought everyone was universal.

[C]

Oh, there is Canadian folklore.

[B]

I know. I was hoping you would latch up.

[C]

Babe the blue ox.

[A]

You did not know this?

[C]

Bab le boeuf bleu.

[B]

Nope. Say it the American way. Babe the blue ox. Okay.

[A]

Bab leff bleu is better.

[C]

That's Babe the blue ox.

[B]

I'm so disappointed right now.

[C]

Well, there you go. He's a big statue in here.

[A]

Was it originally French?

[B]

There is a French version. I'm looking at the same Wikipedia page. He is.

[A]

He's an adult first in French, because Babe de bleuf bleu is just French. That's better.

[B]

You think so? Oh, interesting.

[C]

All right, cool. I don't know much about this.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Although this does seem to be sparking some. A giant man with a blue ox does seem to, like, be awakening an ancestral memory somewhere.

[A]

Something in the spirit of man.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, please share that as we. That's what fairy tales are supposed to be. No, Paul Bunyan is not the same as John Bunyan. So this book is written by a fellow named John Bunyan. Is this someone that you all are familiar with just from building.

[C]

He's a puritan, right? Isn't he like, a.

[B]

He'd fall in this. It's anabaptist. Yeah. They call them themselves, the non conformists. And there's this group. Yeah, it's the.

[C]

It sounds so hardcore.

[B]

The Bedford system. Bedford free. I feel like we haven't said that in a long time.

[C]

RIP the system.

[B]

And that's so metal. That used to be a thing for us non conformists. No way, man. This is the worst. This is again, we're three minutes into this podcast. What have I signed up for? So this guy, John Bunyan, he doesn't start out as an author, doesn't start out in the religious life, but finds himself there over time. He's born in England, born in Bedfordshire. Bedford.

[C]

Bedfordshire.

[B]

Bedfordshire. He's born to a family, or his father is a tinkerer, so someone who repairs stuff around the house.

He gets some education. He joins the military, gets married, and in his first marriage, I think, has four children. His first wife dies. He gets Remarried. And then as he is in this second marriage.

There'S a set of laws that come out. And.

These are the religious acts. Let me see.

I should have the year in front. So this is like the thing he's known for is his imprisonment. So there's the religion act of 1592, which I'm sure I don't need to refresh or update anyone on, but it was not allowed to attend a religious gathering other than at a parish church. And there are like caveats of if it's just with your family or if it's just with five or fewer people, that's fine, but.

[C]

So they didn't want like subversive house churches or something.

[B]

Correct. And no weird cults. No weird stuff. Yeah. And so the. The church had to follow the Book of Common prayer. I guess YouTube will know this, but our audio listeners won't. Is that AJ and Graham are eating pizza this entire episode and I just need to share that with everyone.

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

I'm full mouth and everything. But as I'm sitting here trying to fill this.

[C]

You said we could.

[B]

The silence. I just want you to know AJ and Graham are eating pizza. Graham, who said he would not eat pizza during this episode, gave me permission.

[A]

I was very frank about my desire to eat pizza.

[B]

I thought I'd be doing it.

[A]

And the great thing is, as he's talking, we're both leaning like three feet to the left of the microphone.

[C]

I will no longer have any pizza the rest of the episode.

[A]

Graham, just eat, man.

[B]

I don't know if the person is still. We recently got a comment about the obnoxious mouth noises, which is. It's not the first time we've gotten that. We're trying to do better. We're doing our best.

[C]

I may be subvert me.

[B]

My subversion continues. But please enjoy another piece of this delightful pizza.

[A]

Yeah. You're going to be a nonconformist or what there, buddy.

[C]

Sorry.

[B]

You still have the pizza in your mouth.

[C]

Aj, as you're talking, can be non conformists.

[B]

It's like in your DNA to be conformist. Does that. Okay, so this essentially Bunyan is not allowed to attend lead. Do anything with a service that's not the parish church, like the church for that area of land. And you have to use the Book of Common Prayer at the time. And there are all these rules to it.

[C]

And don't tread on me.

[B]

That's right. And there were. You know, this law was written and put into effect, but not much enforced, as you might imagine, because if you have small towns, who's really going to, like, enforce these rules? But Bunyan is one of the ones who had this, who was punished for this. So he. He attended this religious gathering, he gets punished, brought up on charges, he's put into prison. I think it's supposed to be. It's like three or six months. It's supposed to be, all things considered, probably a decent length of time.

[A]

It's just to stop it.

[B]

Yes. And the language of what he's charged under says that at the end of that time, you have to say you won't do it again. And if you don't agree to that, you get banished, you get exiled, or you get executed, you get killed. Wow. But similar, like, it's in the law, but no one really does that. And so they get to the end of the term. You know, it's the end of the couple months, and they're like, hey, I keep wanting to say, Paul Bunyan. Hey, John Bunyan, are you going to do this again? And he won't agree not to lead a service or be a part of a service that.

He doesn't agree to conform. He doesn't agree to go to the right parish church, doesn't agree to lead worship in the way that's described. And so he gets put in prison again. So they extend his term again, and they keep doing this every six months for 12 years. So he ends up in prison for 12 years because of not wanting to conform and follow the Church of England. So obviously the bad guy in the story. Right. For not wanting Thomas, how could you. How could my people. I'm so sorry. So 12 years of this. And.

I'm curious what you think about this. He's standing by his principles and, like, obviously don't want to say anything about that, but he does have a wife. He has four children who are put on hard times for having to go through that. They depend on the charity of those in their community, and they make it through. But it is a trying time for them as well. So it's not just Bunny.

[C]

What are you saying, Thomas? Are you gonna be Thomas the Apostate? Like, is this.

[B]

That he should give it all, but it's still the Christian church. I don't know, man.

[C]

It was a weird time.

[B]

It was a weird time. And the time is so weird that at the end of those 12 or toward the end of those 12 years, there's actually just kind of a blanket pardon basically to everyone who is convicted under this. And that's what get. So Bunyan never Has to recant. He never has to relent. He's just forgiven, basically, was the blanket pardon.

[C]

Like, people. The authorities kind of realized, like, man, people are getting real geeked up about this. Like, they're actually gonna do it and, like, take passionate stands against it.

[B]

This.

[C]

We probably should not work a big deal about it.

[B]

Again, not really clear on how many. How frequent this was to be enforced. More so, like, maybe Bunyan was a little bit kind of a thorn in the side and so got. Got targeted as a result.

[C]

Maybe he liked to be cantankerous like this.

[B]

Yes. And I think you will get some of that as we get into the. The book itself. So he's in prison for 12 years. He. All he has with him is a book. He has the Bible and then he has the book of the Martyrs. So the Foxes Book of the Martyrs. And paper, like, he can write. And so there's actually some back and forth on when he started Pilgrim's Progress. There's a second time that he's imprisoned, perhaps unsurprisingly, and he certainly was working on it then, but he may also have started on it while he was in prison this first time for these 12 years, because, I mean, what else are you going to do, right? So he starts writing while in prison. He actually publishes a ton. So his first work is some gospel truths, 1656. And then from then until his death, he publishes more than 40 titles. Wow. So he puts out a lot, which is great. And Pilgrim's Progress is one of his later works. So he writes it about 10 years before his death. So it's not published until 1678. Man, I'm starting to feel old. Like, my screen is blurry from here. Maybe I'm. I'm getting ancient. So 1678 is when Pilgrim's Progress is published. This is after he has been imprisoned a second time for having failed to attend the parish church and take communion. So he's still getting in trouble for that even later in Life.

In 1688. So 10 years after Pilgrim's Progress, he is traveling around.

He's traveling between towns, and he finds out that there's a fight going on between a father and a son, takes a detour to go and see them. As he takes his detour, he gets caught in a storm. From this storm, he falls ill, he gets a fever, and then he dies. So dies in 1688.

At. What's that going to make him? 59 years old? So born 1628, dies. 1658 must be before his birthday. So, okay, that is John Bunyan. And.

So Pilgrim's Progress written later in his life. And.

You all have said you may have had some exposure to it before, but there are kind of two stories that make up Pilgrim's Progress. So there's one story with a character named Christian. And does anyone know the name of the character in the second half? Pilgrim. Christiana. So, okay, and then. Oh, it's a girl. Yes, that's the second part. And that is his wife. So there's Christian. He doesn't. I think his name is at first Graceless. And then once he starts his journey, he becomes Christian. And then his wife is mentioned in the first story, but then she begins her pilgrimage in the second part.

[C]

That's her allegorical name at the beginning.

[B]

I don't know. We're only covering the first part. If even we get through all, he.

[A]

Would have to be really careful about that, because if he calls his wife.

[B]

Worthless in the beginning, that's tough. Yeah, that's really tough.

[C]

Her nagger likes to nag me.

[B]

Because it's funny to read the book. So the name. Knowing that Christian had a name before he was called Christian, you find out later in the book, he doesn't go by that name at the beginning. So he's like, not named. He starts his journey, is called Christian, then later says, I used to be called Graceless, and now I'm Christian. So it's like, at the moment, he doesn't say that name.

[A]

I think the version I read says his name, like, right at the beginning as just like sinner or graceless.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Okay. Then.

Bunyan realizes he's onto something when he writes this book. He ends up writing more allegorical works. He has one called the Life and death of Mr. Badman. You like that? I think it's pretty great.

[C]

A little on the nose.

[B]

Saligari on the nose, I think will be the byline of this entire episode. And that's what I hope we get into. He wrote Pilgrim's Progress, Part two, which, again, these books come to us as, like, it's just a bunch of. It's like 100,000 words or whatever. It's not split into paragraphs. It's just like a long story that is written out. When you buy a version of this, it gets split into paragraphs because it would be really tough to read otherwise. But it does read like someone who kind of starts and then is, like, figuring out the story as they go. And I guess we would call this retconning now where, like, he'll just, like. I Mentioned with the guy's name. Like, details get added later in the story to reinterpret something that happened earlier that you could have gone back and edited, but instead is kind of reflected on later.

[C]

It's like me telling the Plantagenet story, like, oh, yeah, I forgot to tell you this one thing. This guy's important because, like, his dad was king.

[B]

All right, let's keep going.

[A]

They were brothers. He was a nephew.

[B]

There also is a. I didn't know this. There's a third part to Pilgrim's Progress, which for a while was published with parts one and two, and I think was believed to be written by Bunyan, but actually is not. It's written by an anonymous additional author. So this is the third part of Pilgrim's Progress and it features. Tender Conscience is the name of the. The main character of that third part.

[C]

It's what happens in the third part. It's like the trilogy.

[B]

So all of these books are the same. So they're all like, person starts out somewhere and they're going to the heavenly city. They're going Mount Zion. They're going. They're going to heaven. Awesome. And they all Christian and Christiana's at least start out in the city of destruction. So that's where they live at the beginning. And I have not read the third one, so can't say I think I'm reading here. Tinder Conscience is a native of the town of vain delights and goes on the same pilgrimage to the celestial city. So, okay, I'm gonna. I'll be focused on this first part and then we may come back to the second at some point in the future. And maybe I'll read the third at some point. I don't know. Okay, so I also should have started, like, why are we talking about Pilgrim's Progress? What actually brought me. First off, it's like, it's a very famous, important book. You'll see people like, I think it's Spurgeon, who read it like a hundred times, was like a big fan of this book.

The reason I picked it up is that I've mentioned in Patreon stuff that I've been reading Little Women recently. And something I didn't know, I haven't read the book before, is that Pilgrim's Progress is all throughout Little Women. Right. So the opening. The first paragraph. I'm sorry, the first paragraph. The first chapter of Little Women is titled Playing Pilgrims. And what they talk about is they bring up this book that they used to read when they were little. And of course it is Pilgrim's Progress. I was thinking about our Pilgrim's Progress, answered Beth, who had not heard a word. How we got out of the slough and through the wicket gate by resolving to be good and up the steep hill by trying. And then maybe the house over there full of splendid things is going to be our palace beautiful. They. They play these games and one of the frequent ones is Pilgrim's Progress.

[C]

It's a little New England non conformist.

[B]

They're a big fan of this and so they, you know, they introduce it in the first chapter and then throughout there will be other references. So for example, chapter six, Beth finds the palace beautiful. Palace beautiful is a place in.

Pilgrim's Progress. Amy's Valley of Humiliation. And then Joe meets Apollyon. So all reference next, Meg goes to Vanity Fair. This is four chapters in a row all referencing different parts of Pilgrim's Progress. So that prompted me to go reread it or reread it. I'd read it before I read it at a. Sarah and I had read it for like a book class at a church a long time ago, but certainly was worth the reread.

[C]

Before your Anglican day is no different.

[B]

Before my Anglican day. It was actually before my Anglican days.

[C]

Usually doesn't make it on the old Church of England reading list.

[B]

Does not quite. Yeah, he's not the biggest fan. And there I think I made reference that adaptations will remove certain parts. There's like an anti Catholic bent to the original, unsurprisingly, that is absolutely removed from more modern versions or at least from the ones that I've seen. So. Okay, so.

Little Women is great. That's my only other takeaway there. But had no idea that Pilgrim's Progress was such an important part of the. That.

[C]

So we're in the city of Destruction.

[B]

That is where we begin.

[C]

That sucks.

[B]

Say why? Well, actually, even before Sounds so great. Sounds like a bad place to buy property. So can't own a house for very long. What was the expression you just used on the nose? Was that the little.

[C]

On the nose?

[B]

So maybe I'll start here. So.

Graham, you just did an episode on Macbeth. Yes. So you're talking about how Macbeth is about this inversion or there is a theme throughout it. I want to. About this inversion of nature. Would you say that it is an allegory? No. For this inversion of nature or that.

[C]

Is a. I wouldn't say it's an allegory. I mean, I think I get probably rightly accused of allegory of. Of doing allegorical readings. And doing symbolic readings of things. I know it drives AJ Bonkers.

[A]

Only sometimes I actually think. Anyway, this is maybe a later discussion, but I like the.

[B]

The.

[A]

Your ability to archetype is something I wish that I did better.

[C]

So I definitely, like, I'm lent towards more archetypal reading. Maybe it's because I. My parents read me Pilgrims kids. Pilgrim's Progress as a kid. But it's not an allegory where it's like Macbeth. Is this Lady Macbeth? Is this where it's like, in this, it. You know, it's. The main character is graceless, and then he goes through the slough of despondency, and then he goes through the Valley.

[A]

Of Humiliation, the Bog of Eternal Stench.

[C]

Like, what could happen in that Valley of Humiliation?

[B]

Yeah, he's really proud. No, he has a really good time. Yeah. And that's the everybody cheers for him. He has a really great time and nothing bad happens. Yeah. So I guess that's what is interesting about this book is that there's no question of what the author is doing at any point throughout this. And there are benefits to that. So, you know, the book is not really about a guy named Christian. It's about all of us reading this book, thinking about our journey to heaven. Yes. Right.

[C]

And he's not making the Pilgrim's Progress, like, extended universe where it's got like. But there is an internal logic to it.

[B]

I was gonna say there's a sequel and another sequel.

[A]

A system of magic where they.

[C]

Where there's, like, intricate politics between the value humiliations, like, you know, natural resources.

[A]

And the city of destruction who desperately need mortar to help their buildings.

[B]

This your D and D stuff coming back out? What's happening right now? Okay, cool. So what is interesting then is that there's not really a question that you are supposed to interpret this book or in a way, it already interprets itself for you. Again, it's very on the nose with a lot of these.

[C]

That's why it's always good for kids. Right.

[B]

So that is an interesting. If you look up old versions of this book, if you go to Project Gutenberg and look up the version that's up there, the COVID will say, any kid can read like, it's a children's version of this book. And when I read from Little Women at the time that they're reading it, the sisters are kind of. I forget how old the youngest one is, but Maybe it's like 8 to 16 somewhere around there. Like, they're kids reading this book. And it is like, it's an adventure story. There's a guy in a bad place, wants to get to a good place, has to overcome all of the challenges in between. And so you can read it at that level of this is a fun adventure. Well, fun is maybe a stretch, but it is an adventure story with like a good moral underpinning to it. And that's where I think you get the buy in from pastors, from parents, from whomever is there also. But yeah, I see this as appealing to kids. Maybe it's the illustrations, which again are excellent in the kids version that we talked about, Little Pilgrim's Progress. But they like the story. This is one that they find interesting.

So yeah, it's a story that has almost already interpreted itself.

In its construction. And I can't tell if that at some level it makes it hard to enter into the story because you're not really learning about the character. Christian, like Christian is not a person really. He is. He's a stand in for an everyman. He's a stand in for everyone reading this book and.

You'Re not. This is one of those books where like, you don't want to just like start on page one and read as quickly as you can to the last page. You're meant to reflect on it as you go through and think about, you know, which of these places am I in right now? Or what is my.

Bog of disposal? S L U O U G. You say slough. I've heard slu. I want to talk for 45 minutes about this. Slough. Nope, you're wrong. Slough of Despond.

[C]

Yeah, that was how it's pronounced to.

[B]

Me when I was a kid, which is fine.

[C]

I'm not realizing that like I was, this was, I mean, so part of my family circle is. Is grew up. Plymouth Brethren.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And that is a non conformist sect of, of Protestantism. And so the Pilgrim's Progress is like required reading for every child.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Now I didn't really grow up in it because I, my grandparents were a part of it, but my parents went to an Anglican church which is very, you know, they, they sort of rebelled by going back to the. Anyway, so I would like get this book when I went to visit my grandparents, maybe they were trying to like undo the. Undo the high church.

[B]

Anglicanism. Yes.

[A]

So can pronounce slew or slough also slough. If you're talking about a snake, I'm not kidding.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Slough his skin.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But not a, not a bog, right?

[A]

Yeah, not a bog.

[C]

They slough.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's a verb.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yep. To slough.

[B]

Okay, so let's read a little bit.

[A]

Dude, eat your pizza.

[B]

You should eat your pizza. He's just finished your pizza.

[A]

My pizza's gone. I enjoyed it very much.

[B]

Graham has one and a half pieces of pizza and two cupcakes in front of him. So good. Yeah.

[A]

Gonna eat that, buddy.

[B]

Eat that. No, I'm not.

[C]

I need to say I'll start reading.

[B]

About gluttony as soon as he does.

I would never ask that.

[A]

I'm going to say focused so hard right now.

[B]

Yeah, I respect it. So what is the story? Yes, the allegory, but it's also a dream. So the first chapter in my version is labeled the Jail, but again, would just be like a wall of text if you were reading the original. As I walked through the wilderness of this world, I lighted on a certain place where was a den. And I laid me down in that place to sleep. And as I slept, I dreamed a dream. I dreamed, and behold, quote, I saw a man clothed with rags, standing in a certain place with his face from his own house, a book in his hand, and a great burden upon his back. End quote. So something that I'll also say throughout this book, there are, like, Scripture citations all throughout. Depending on the version you read, it could be in line, and it's just like. It's very funny because you'll read a sentence and they're like seven scripture citations after each line, and then it goes to the next one. The version I prefer has footnotes at the end, but there are quotes throughout. I probably won't indicate where all those quotes are, but it's very heavily steeped in quotes from Scripture, which makes sense for the guy who for 12 years had only two books in front of him, the Bible and the Book of Martyrs. Right? So I looked. So this not the quote anymore. It's the narrator. I looked and saw him open the book and read therein. And as he read, he wept and trembled. And. And not being able longer to contain, he break out with a lamentable cry, saying, what shall I do in this plight? Therefore, he went home and refrained himself as long as he could that his wife and children should not perceive his distress. But he could not be silent long because that his trouble increased. And then. So he. This guy, he's reading a book. Do you want to guess what that book is? It's probably the Bible. You're probably not surprised. Cool. Okay. So he reads a book. He realizes there's something wrong with his life. He Realizes that there's this burden on his back, which he's always had there but was never really there.

[A]

Hey, whoa. How'd that get there?

[B]

Yeah, that's right. It's like out of nowhere. It's been there the whole time. Yeah. And he's like, well, I gotta do something about this. Like, it's kind of like he's realizing, oh, maybe they have not named the city yet, but, like, maybe living in the City of destruction is not the best place for me to be. He goes and he tells his wife and his kids, and they think he's crazy. And instead of. He tries to convince like. This is litigated further in the book of, like, whether he does enough to try and convince them. But he tells them, hey, something's wrong here. I need to get out of here. You all need to get out of here. And his family doesn't believe him, and so he leaves them. His family stays in the City of Destruction, and he, Christian, bolts.

[A]

Okay, I do have a question about the naming of the city of destruction. Did they just know destruction was coming and then do you think.

[B]

No, they call it so characters later will reference that they. Like, it's just the name of their city. Like, we have Austin. They have Destruction. There's a place called Vanity later.

[A]

So why does he feel like he has to get out of it if it's just the name of the city?

[C]

Because he had a burn on his back.

[B]

Well, I think this is an interesting. It's like, depending on what level you're thinking of this, because a lot of the book makes no sense as a story if you're like. Like what you're saying of, like, why would I.

[A]

So you're saying I have to suspend disbelief. And I can't demand that the specifics.

[B]

Make sense because it's like the book.

[C]

You gotta wake up Aja. Get out of the Matrix.

[B]

That's right. Cause it's almost like destruction doesn't. It obviously means something to us, the reader, but it doesn't mean something to them, the people who live in the city. Which is like, wild, right? Most of the characters, I've already told you, one of them is named Christian, but other ones will be named Pliable or hopeful or, like, they'll have a characteristic as their name. And they never think that that, like, indicates something about who they are or whether you should trust them or not.

[A]

My buddy used to name things exactly what they were. Like, he had a bike named Chain falls off.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

Which was my favorite thing.

[C]

That's how you name dwarves in Disney movies.

[B]

Yes. Sleepy. Dopey. Yep.

[C]

Pliable and shameful.

[A]

Smelly. Doesn't shower.

[B]

Yep. My favorite one.

[A]

So eats rocks.

[B]

This guy Christian, realizes there's a problem. He needs to get out. He doesn't know where to go or what to do. Finds a guy named Evangelist, and Evangelist says, what does he do? Can you imagine?

[A]

Does he live in destruction?

[B]

He does. So he's kind of like he shows up at multiple places throughout the story. So it's kind of like he's wandering. What a bro. Yeah, he has a bro and is there to help people kind of go on their way. And what Evangelist does is he points the way for Christian to go. Christian knows there's a problem. Evangelist helps him kind of know what to do with that problem.

Then said Evangelist, if this be thy condition. So, like, you got issues. You know you're going to get destroyed. You're going to hell. Why standest thou still? He answered, because I know not whither to go. That's Christian answered, I know not whither to go. Then he, Evangelist, gave him Christian a parchment roll. And there was written within, fly from the wrath to come. The man therefore read it and looked upon Evangelist very carefully, said, whither must I fly? Then said Evangelist, pointing with his finger over a very wide field. Do you see yonder wicket gate? The man said, no. Then said the other, do you see yonder shining light? He said, I think I do. Then said Evangelist, keep that light in your eye and go up directly thereto. So shalt thou see the gate at which when thou knockest it shall be told thee what thou shalt do. Evangelist points to a gate that he doesn't see, a narrow gate that he needs to make all haste for and get to. Christian starts on this journey. He meets a couple people along the way. The two people he meets are Obstinate and Pliable. Do you want to guess how obstinate feels?

[A]

He's not into it.

[B]

He's not into it. That's right. And Pliable. He probably.

[C]

He's like, I'll come with you for a long.

[B]

He's along for the ride. So Obstinate ends up kind of bouncing off this journey, is not interested. Pliable's like, whatever, let's go for it.

Maybe I'm even not giving Pliable credit. Pliable says, come then, good neighbor. Let us be going. And then they both went together. Obstinate says, I will go back to my place. I will be no companion of such misled, fantastical fellows. They immediately Fall, or they immediately reach the slew. The slaw of despondent. So a slaw is a bog. Right. It's like a swamp in despond. How would you define that? Despondency.

[A]

Just sadness.

[B]

Sadness is a good definition. Listless.

[A]

It's kind of like a despond is usually sort of a sad hopelessness. Right. Isn't there an element of hopelessness?

[B]

You lose confidence. Yes. Unhappiness, low spirits, dejected. So it's just. So, again, what's happening here? There's this, like, initial call and direction for the pilgrim. He has some sense of where to go, a lot of excitement, and then immediately falls into kind of hopelessness. Loss of vision, loss of direction, loss of where to go. They get to this bog, and they kind of, like, aren't paying attention, and they walk into it. Basically, Christian is pretty far into it when he's like, I have no idea how to get out of this. And pliable. What do you think he does?

[C]

He's out.

[B]

He is out. He only gets into the bog a little bit, and he's like, no, thank you. Gets out, goes back to the city of destruction and stays there.

Christian is like, I don't know what I'm gonna do or how I'm gonna get out of this. And that is when a character named Help arrives. Help helps. Help gets Christian out of the bog. Helps him get out to the other side. And there's like a. Like, steps. There's like a foundation beneath the slough, the slaw that Christian can stand on and make his way through the bog. So Help is the reason that he's able to. Good job. Help to get through that. Way to go, buddy makes it through. There's a conversation about, like, hey, why the heck did you put a bog here? Like, why is that there? And the bog cannot be gotten rid of. As long as there are pilgrims, as long as there are our temptations, there will always be this bog that people fall into. So they. There's some back and forth about that.

Christian continues his journey, makes it to the wicket gate and.

Wicked or wicket, wicket material is wicker.

[A]

That clears up my confusion.

[B]

W I C K E T so.

[A]

It'S not doing a whole lot in actually keeping people out.

[B]

Anyone who wants. Yeah, anyone who wants.

[A]

If you got an axe, you're getting through that wicked gate.

[B]

Yeah, anyone who knocks is allowed in. And there's a part later where I forget if it's at the wicket gate where, like, the quote about the violent men will take the kingdom by force. Like there's like a challenge where you have to take a weapon and like charge at these like really tough looking enemies. And just you charging is enough to get you in. But like, you have to be able to face the fear to get through it.

So continues on his journey. He doesn't quite. There's a stop before he makes it. Where does he go?

[C]

Through the gate.

[B]

We're not quite there yet. So before he can make it, he runs into a guy named Mr. Worldly Wiseman. And Mr. Worldly Wiseman, you know, he's like a sharp looking dude, speaks really well, wants to help Christian. And the guy's like, look, you're taking this really long journey that's going to like eventually help you get this burden off your back. We can do that now. You don't have to take this long journey. You can take this little side quest. I don't know, you can take a little detour and get that burden off your back now instead of having to suffer with it for a really, really long time.

[C]

Oh, let's just do that.

[B]

Yeah, like, why would you not?

[A]

Seems like a deal.

[B]

Seems like a good deal. So worldly wise men points him in a direction and.

Tells him to go and talk with some other people to get that off his back. And he goes and.

He ends up under a mountain. Yeah, they call it a hill. But basically he walks up to this elevated thing, hill mountain. And as he gets closer, like he thinks it's kind of small, but as he gets closer he realizes like towering over him and he feels like this hill, this mountain is going to fall on top of him. That like there's no, like he's basically frozen in his tracks as he, as he approaches this method, as he goes this way that worldly wise men tells him is going to help him. So the place that he's trying to go to is Mr. Legality. But behold, when he was got now hard by the hill, it seems so high. And also that side of it that was next to the place he's trying to go did hang so much over that Christian was afraid to venture further, lest the hill should fall on his head. Wherefore there he stood still and wanted not what to do. Also his burden now seemed heavier to him that while he was in his way, there came also flashes of fire out of the hill that made Christian afraid that he should be burned here. Therefore he sweat and did quake for fear. And now he began to be sorry that he had taken Mr. Worldly Wiseman's counsel. So he thinks that he's gonna take an easy path and not have to go through the narrow gate. He goes and tries out legality, and it doesn't. It doesn't work for him. He ends up kind of frozen in place, not sure what to do.

[C]

But if he, like, worked a little harder, could he have made it?

[B]

He might have made it. That's right. I mean, that's the like. Yes. And that's. You could climb the mountain if you really tried. Right? Yeah.

[C]

Good to know.

[B]

At this point, Evangelist shows up and basically asks him what the heck he's doing. My guy, why are you here? Yes. And Evangelist then tells him what's going on. Tells him that this mountain he's never going to climb, that this is like, it's him trying to justify Christian trying to justify himself, trying to fulfill the law on his own. And that's not a path that's ever going to be fruitful. He's not going to make it. So Evangelist then points him back to the gate and says, hey, no, you actually need to go this way. So that is what Christian. And at this point, like, Evangelist gives a sermon, right? So.

He'S talking about worldly wise men because he is of this carnal temper. Therefore he seeketh to prevent my ways. Though right now, here are three things in this man's counsel that thou must utterly abhor. One, his turning thee out of the way. Two, his laboring to render the cross odious to thee. And three, his setting thy feet in that way that leadeth unto the administration of death. And then he has three paragraphs that expand on the ideas that he just introduced right there.

[A]

This guy was a jerk. And you should not be a fan.

[B]

This worldly wise. Yes, exactly. Do not listen to this guy. Ignore this guy. And again, I'm giving you some of the plot here, but what is really happening in the book is that.

This is an opportunity for reflection. That in the same way that we may desire not to go through the narrow gate, that we don't want to go through the cross, that we don't want repentance. We want an easier way. We want a way that lets us maintain.

Our pride, maintain, like, the way things are. And so Evangelist understandably rails against that. Just has lots of words to say. That is not the way to. To save yourself. So Evangelist wraps this up. Many of the sections will end with.

Either poetry or a song. And this is Evangelists. He knocked, therefore, more than once or twice, saying, this actually is Christian at this point. This is when Christian gets to the gate in the Process of time. Christian got up to the gate. Now, over the gate, there was written, knock, and it shall be opened unto you. And then he says, may I now enter here? Will he within open to sorry me, though I have been an undeserving rebel? Then shall I not fail to sing his lasting praise on high?

The door is opened, and a character, a person named Goodwill, shows up. And Goodwill probably understandably shows goodwill toward him, welcomes him into the gate, says that all who knock may enter, and lays out the path that Christian needs to follow from here. Another path? Yes, I mean, it's the whole. It is a pilgrimage. Right. So it's his travels from one city to the celestial city.

[A]

I wonder if he was disappointed to find out there was more path after the game.

[B]

Oh, for reals. There's a lot more to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Goodwill points him the way to go. There's this.

[C]

Does he still have the burden?

[B]

He still has the burden at this point because he hasn't gotten to the cross yet. I don't believe yet. Yeah, he'll get to the cross later.

So keeps that.

The burden on his back.

I think.

There'S just so much going on that I'm gonna leave things out to get to this gate. There were arrows being shot by Beelzebub, who had a tower along the way. Christian avoids those arrows. I think in one of the sequels, someone is actually struck by them and kind of it works out what that means for that character. But Christian makes it by safely gets through the gate and then is pointed on the king's highway. And the path to go he's directed to this person named Interpreter. And he is shown a series of pictures.

He's shown just like scenes. There's like a person in a bed waking up. There are two kids sitting in two chairs. One of them is patient, one of them is not. And the Interpreter walks through all these stories and interprets, says what is meant by all these events. And they're meant as encouragement. There's one where there's a fire. Someone's trying to put the fire out with lots of water, but the fire continues to burn. And the fire is burning because hidden to the viewer is someone feeding in fuel to the fire, so that even as there are attacks from the world or whatever, that the fire is sustained. This is meant as encouragement for Pilgrim. And so he. He takes this as a. As an image that he'll refer back to throughout.

Around this time is when he approaches.

He passes by a cross. And as he passes by the cross, his burden falls off. His back. It's not really him doing anything. It's that by him, I guess, in the sense he has walked this way. Like he has gotten to. Gotten to the cross. But other than that. Then the burden falls off and is left on the ground. And then he.

Gets greeted by. I think this is three shining ones. He gets a new set of clothes. He gets a ticket that's like his entry into the celestial city. So an important thing is this just a complicated. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory kind of. Do they lose their. They don't lose their tickets in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

[A]

I think he keeps it.

[B]

Do people take naps at the wrong time in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?

[A]

They do in the Odyssey.

[B]

They do in the Odyssey. That happens here also. So he gets some new clothes. He gets his ticket into the city and continues on from there.

More to come. So he'll pass by.

He'll pass by some bad actors. Simple and sloth and presumption. But they try and take him off the path. He ignores them, continues. He then has to. He comes across a really steep hill. It's called the hill of difficulty. And he.

Again, on the nose, I guess. And then at the hill of difficulty, he climbs it, makes it to the top.

And he's killing it. Yeah. Like, things are going. He had the slaw before, which is not so great. Of despond. When I say slaw, I'm thinking like the coleslaw. But no, the bog of despair, whatever you want to call it, gets to the hill of difficulty, makes it up, and then he knows that he should push himself a little harder. Like, he knows that he needs to make haste for the celestial city. But he's kind of tired, so he takes a nap. And while he takes his nap, unbeknownst to him at the time, he loses his ticket into the celestial city. So he makes a mistake by. You hear that? Yeah. More questions to be raised. Right. He loses that ticket and kind of. He continues on his path, starts walking forward, realizes that he forgot it, and is really distraught. Like, it really. He knows that he did wrong by taking this nap. He then gets the punishment of not. Like he would not be allowed into the celestial city, as is right now for want of his ticket in. Graham's question is the right one of, like, is that actually what Bunyan believes? But, you know, I'm just. I'm telling you a story, man.

[C]

I think my grandparents edited that part out.

[B]

They want you to know that. That's right. He goes back, finds his ticket, everything's fine. Yeah.

[A]

Losing the ticket, would that be something that would make Calvin roll over in his grave?

[B]

You've got some issues there. Yeah, that'd be tough. And there is some, like. So they've made it past the gate. There's this path that they're walking on, but there are people who jump. There are walls on either side of this highway, and people can jump over the walls to get.

Into the king's highway. But this is, like.

The final image of someone who kind of tries to cheat the system by going in his own way and is rejected at the Celestial City. And, like, that's how this book ends. So it's not.

[A]

Wait, so if they jump the wall, is it fine?

[B]

No, it's not fine. So. Because they don't get the ticket the right way.

[A]

Oh, they don't have the ticket.

[B]

They're not allowed in. And apparently, there's a tunnel. There's a. What's that called?

[A]

Just like a shoot where they hit the button and you fall through the floor to hell.

[B]

At the gate of hell. Right there. Yeah, right there. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So Christian has gotten his ticket back. He continues on his journey, and he now is going to. He is walking and sees that there is.

A demon in his way. And this is Apollyon. Do y' all know. Does this name ring a bell to you?

[C]

No.

[B]

Okay, so Apollyon. Also, the Hebrew name is Abaddon.

[A]

Oh, I know that name.

[B]

So Abaddon and Sheol are, like, grouped together. Like, you'll hear those two names together in the Old Testament. And then the Apollyon. I'm sure I'm butchering this. I apologize to all of our listeners. Shows up in Revelation, so as, like, a person. So there's kind of a Old Testament. Seems to describe more of a place with Abaddon, and then Apollyon is more. Is more a person. I say person, but, like, demon. I think the word literally means destroyer. So.

I was trying to look for the. Yeah. Described as a destroyer, angel of the abyss, king of a plague of locusts, resembling horses with crowned human faces, women's hair, lion's teeth. So, you know, someone you don't want to mess with. Yeah, man. You don't want that.

[C]

Chomping on your crops.

[B]

Do not want that. So.

Pilgrim or Christian comes across Abaddon and doesn't really want to fight him. Kind of. There's some hesitation about. About entering into battle and ultimately kind of psychs himself up because it's the only way to get to the Celestial City. He just has to make it through. So they enter into a fight. They fight for over half a day. I can't imagine, like, long fight. That's a long fight. So if you're going, like, four hours or six hours, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, great stamina.

[C]

Could it be, like, when you fight with your wife for half a day, you're, like, not talking to each other?

[A]

I mean, they sort of, like, look at each other over a counter.

[B]

There's a little more stabbing in this one than in that fight.

[C]

This is a physical fight for Halloween.

[B]

This is a physical fight. And there's, you know, swords. And Christian finally stabs Apollyon. And Apollyon.

Either has wings or grows wings. He's at some points described as a dragon, and other times it's left a little more open. But he flies off after Christian stabs him. And Christian gets to continue on his journey. Christian makes it to the valley of the Shadow of death. As you might imagine, not a cheery place.

And he, like, can't see as he's in here. So he's, like, trying to wander around and make it through, through this valley. And he. It's like there are things will be whispered, and it's like there's blasphemy that's, like, whispered in his ear. And he thinks he's the one thinking it, but it's actually coming from. From outside of him. Like, really shakes him. Like, it's a terrifying, terrifying experience for him.

Sun rises, he leaves the valley, continues on his way. Runs into a guy named Faithful. And this Faithful was one of his neighbors or someone who lived in the city of destruction is also on this path. Good neighbor to have, Good neighbor to have.

They make it to a city called Vanity. And Vanity has a bazaar. It has a place where people buy and sell goods. The name of that place is Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair. So we get Vanity Fair here, and, you know, Christian is not unfaithful. They're not really interested in Vanity Fair. They don't want to buy any of the stuff that's there. And this makes. This makes people mad that they aren't, like, buying into the. They're not buying goods. They're not interested in trading. Yeah.

[A]

What about the gdp?

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Engage in the economy.

[B]

Yeah. And so people get mad, and they raise a stink. And Faithful and Christian get arrested, and they're put on trial. And there are these false accusers that come out to say all the bad things that Faithful and Christian have done, but they appear to be. You know, they're making These.

[A]

So is this just an indictment of consumerism?

[B]

Yeah, again, on the nose. Right.

And trying to look for the list because it's quite the cast of characters. It's. I'm gonna get the judge's name wrong, but it's like Judge Hate Good or something like that. Again.

Envy is one of the people who accuses Faithful and Christian. I'm not going to get the rest of the list.

But the. The false accusers are enough. Oh, Here it is. Mr. Blindman, Mr. No good, Mr. Malice, Mr. Lovelust, Mr. Live loose, Mr. Heady, Mr. High mind, Mr. Enmity, Mr. Liar, Mr. Cruelty, Mr. Hate light, Mr. Implacable, who every one gave in his private verdict against him among themselves and afterward unanimously concluded to bring him in guilty before the judge. The foreman of the jury was Mr. Blindman, which is great. So these upstanding moral characters make their accusations against Faithful and Christian. They are. It's said that they're put to death by this judge. And Faithful is killed. He is put on. He's burned alive. And as this mess around in Vanity Fair. Yeah, this place is pretty rough. So he's burned at the stake. And as this is happening, a chariot from the Celestial City shows up, picks up Faithful, takes him straight there. So instead of having to go through the rest of the journey, Faithful gets a direct trip there from his execution in Vanity Fair. Christian escapes. He sees all this happening and.

Hightails it. Right. Like. Yeah. Gets out of there as fast as he can, continues on his journey, has some more temptations along the way. I think a famous one that comes along is there's a giant named Despair, and he has a wife named Diffidence.

They have a castle. I think it's the Doubting Castle. And Christian gets locked up there for a while. And it's. I mean, it's dark. They're beaten, they're starved.

The couple, the two giants, it's weird to call them a couple, but they're married. Are encouraging Christian to kill himself. That, like, there's no way out. He's never going to make it. There's nothing that he can do. And then he realizes. Then he. Christian, in the depth of his despair, realizes that he has the way out that he's had with him the entire time. A key that's going to unlock the door out of this doubting castle. Yeah, that's convenient. Right? And this key, has this always been there? It's out of nowhere, this key called Promise. And it lets him open the door, leave the castle, walk out, they go out into the day. And they flee the castle and are able to get out.

They make it through. I'll. I'll be quick for the rest because we're getting close. But they. There are the delectable mountains. They make. It sounds awesome. It rules. But there's kind of a. Like, you have to be careful here because I think this is where you can't fall asleep. Because if you do like, you die.

[C]

So don't you want to die? That's what happened to faithful.

[B]

Well, it depends why you die or how you die, I guess. And maybe it's a. You just won't. We've met sloth along the way, for example, who's just like sprawled out on the side of the road. So if you don't make it to the celestial city, that's a bummer. That's not what you want. They make it through. They have to.

Cross some rivers to. To get to the celestial city, which it has. It very much seems like Christian appears to die at this point, right? Which an important part of the journey to heaven is going to be like death, right? To have to cross over that. But he in the story makes it through this river and then is brought to the celestial city and he is welcomed in.

Now, while they were thus drawing toward the gate, behold a company of the heavenly host came out to meet them, to whom it was said by the other two shining ones. These are the men that have loved our Lord when they were in the world and that have left all for his holy name. And he hath sent us to fetch them. And we have brought them thus far on their desired journey that they may go in and look their redeemer in the face with joy. Then the heavenly host gave a great shout, saying, blessed are they which are called under the marriage supper of the Lamb. Then came out also at this time to meet them several of the king's trumpeters clothed in white and shining raiment, who with melodious sounds and loud made even the heavens to echo with their sound. The trumpeters saluted Christian and his fellow with 10,000 welcomes from the world. And this they did with shouting and sound of trumpet. And it continues on from there. But.

You know, it's. And I've made reference to it and I'll just read it because it's kind of wild as an ending. But you would expect it to stop there, right? He makes it to the celestial city. He receives that which he has been promised this entire book, and is welcomed in and. And his story ends now it's purgatory.

[C]

Right now you got to get rid.

[B]

Of all those sins. I wanted to ask you about. Yeah, maybe we'll do in the in between, since I'm running long. But now, while I was this. So that's Christian who makes it in the gate. And this is the last paragraph of the story. And I'll end with the poem that actually concludes this part. But.

The last paragraph before we get there. Now, while I was gazing. So the narrator, the person watching the story. Now, while I was gazing upon all these things, I turned my head to look back and saw ignorance come up to the riverside. But he soon got over in that without half the difficulty with which the other two men met with. For it happened that there was then in that place one vain hope. It's capitalized vain hope. A ferryman that with his boat helped him over. Helped him ignorance over. So he, as the other I saw, did ascend the hill to come up to the gate which only he came alone. Neither did any man meet him with the least encouragement. When he was come up to the gate, he looked up to the writing that was above and then began to knock. Supposing that entrance should have been quickly administered to him. But he was asked by the men that looked over the top of the gate, whence came you, and what would you have? He answered, I have eat and drank in the presence of the King. He has taught in our streets. Then they asked him for his certificate, that little. That ticket that I mentioned, that they might go in and show it to the king. So he fumbled in his bosom for one and found none. Then said, they, have you none? But the man answered, never a word. So they told the king, but he would not come to see him. And commanded the two shining ones that conducted Christian and hopeful to the city to go out and take Ignorance and bind him hand and foot and have him away. Then they took him up and carried him through the air to the door that I saw on the side of the hill and put him in there. Then I saw that there was a way to hell even from the gates of heaven as well as from the city of destruction. So I awoke. And behold, it was a dream. Dang, that's how it ends.

[C]

There's like a little chute you can go down.

[B]

Yes, from the very end. So again it's.

In a second. I'll read the poem. But what is this book? This is a book meant for meditation. It's a book meant for contemplation. It's.

There is the level of it, isn't like it's an action story, like I've said, but there's not. There's not that much action. Right. Like you get the fight with the demon a little bit. They get some arrows that are shot at Christian. But it's a lot of talking, it's a lot of reflecting on these events and what they mean. And it's clear that what is meant is for the reader to do that exercise as well. To read through and think again, what to me, you know, am I in the castle of doubt? Am I under the thumb of the giant despair?

Am I stuck in the. In the. In the slough of despond? And to think kind of where am I in this? And the book then gives recommendations. Yes. Of how to get out.

[C]

Very psychological almost.

[B]

Yes. In that it's archetypal. Right. It's a. If I'm. If I'm in the slough of despond, I need hope. What does in the. The book will kind of give. You know, what does that hope look like? What does that hope do? I'm at the beginning of faith. I don't know where to go. I need to be pointed the way by someone further along than me evangelist in this book. So it is very much. It's a. It is a practical book. It's. Yeah. One that I recommend for that I don't recommend as the like just read it cover to cover because I think you can tell from me tripping over the words. There's like a. It's pretty dense. It's not meant to be rushed through, but I think could be very profitable to the person who wants to spend time with it.

[C]

It's a book that teaches you how to like think of the events of your life in light of the sort of overarching gospel story that it's presenting. So like if you're in the slough of despondency.

You could be really like fixated on the specific things that you're really upset about. But then when you get to the moment, you say, oh, I'm just like pilgrim in the slough of despondency. It almost like trivializes your problems and you say, I just need to keep going and I need to sort of like ignore the specifics and have hope in the. The promise of the celestial city. And then sort of off you go. So it's like.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's very self helpy and not self helpy. Maybe it's like because it is self denial.

[B]

Like it's not a. You are not the hero of the story. And I've left out a lot of, like, Christian will rightfully question himself.

I made reference. But, like, he has this conversation with these. With people along the way where he. They ask where he came from and who he left behind. And he gets interrogated for, like, did you do enough to help your wife and children? Or did you just abandon them? And Christian has to deal with that. Of, like, I think I did the best. And then the person comes back with, like, was your heart really in the right place? Or did you want to be thought of as a hero instead of.

[C]

Dang.

[B]

It's really. It cuts them to the core. So, like, you don't end this with, like, Christian rules. It's that God rules. It's like, the one who brought him through all this is not Christian. Yeah, yeah. He needed God all along the way. Yeah. That's a good book. It's a good book. Check it out. Okay. I'll end with the conclusion, and then we can wrap it up. Now, reader, I have told my dream to thee. See if thou canst interpret it to me or to thyself or neighbor. But take heed of misinterpreting for that instead of doing good will but thyself abuse by misinterpreting evil ensues. Take heed also that thou be not extreme in playing with the outside of my dream, Nor let my figure or similitude put thee into a laughter or a feud. Leave this for boys and fools. But as for thee, do thou the substance of my matters see put by the curtains, look within my veil, turn up my metaphors, and do not fail there, if thou seekest them, such things to find as will be helpful to an honest mind. What of my dross thou findest there? Be bold to throw away, but yet preserve the gold. What if my gold be wrapped up in ore? None throws away the apple for the core. But if thou shalt cast all away as vain, I know not, but twill make me dream again. The end. That's really fun. Yeah. All right, cool. Thanks, Thomas. Yeah.

[A]

That's a sweet little book.

[C]

So do you think a book like that is ultimately profitable? Or do you think it's for a Christian? Or do you think it's kind of kitschy? Like, do you think it's too simplistic, or is it?

[B]

My first time reading it was very much on the kitsch side of, like, what are we doing here? But I think, again, as long as you are actively reading this and thinking about what it has to say for your life, I think it was profitable is worthwhile. But it is like, it's on the nose, but there's also like a. I don't know. You're not going to be smart for reading this book because it has all the interpretation for you. Yes. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Like, you are not meant to suss the meaning of this book out.

[C]

It's not like hidden gnostic knowledge.

[B]

It's just like on the. It's on the page. And so it may not make you feel smart, like reading other books will. Like, if you're like, my favorite book is Pilgrim's Progress. That doesn't do the same thing as like, my favorite book is Finnegan's Wake or Ulysses or something. Right. Like.

But I think you'll get much more. Well, there's your obvious statement for the day. You'll get more out of this book than those others.

[A]

Yeah. What's that quote by Lewis about? Like, God is simple, but men refuse to be simple. Something like that. I forget what it is. But this isn't. This is an easy simplifier when you are sort of like confusing yourself.

[B]

Maybe. Yes.

[A]

Like, maybe that's what it's for. And especially a good thing for kids.

[B]

And I think I like that. Of the simple of it's. You may think your life is complex, but which of these stories lines up? Like, actually things aren't as complicated as you think they are. Like you're a sinner and you need to repent. Or you've been led astray by your own desires. Like, don't. Don't over complicate.

[C]

Or you've complicated it so much you're climbing this like, stupid mountain when really you could, you know, take an easier way. Yeah.

[B]

All right, cool.

[A]

Well, this has been classical stuff. You should know you can find us on the Twits at clscuff.

[B]

There were way too many letters in that at all. Yep. Okay. Classical stuff.

[A]

Classical without the A. Yep. And then you can email us@theguys classicalstuff.net you can support us on Patreon patreon.com classical stuff. I think that's all of the stuffs.

[B]

My pizza's cold. You could have eaten it. This was on you. I told you you could have eaten it. Both of us were pro pizza. Now eat it during the in between for people that paid money. You're gonna eat pizza?

[C]

Cold pizza?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You should have like, made mouth sounds when it was all free.

[B]

So messed up.

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

Hey, you're gonna get mouth sounds. Yeah. All right.

[A]

Anyway, we love you guys and, you know, keep life simple.

[B]

I like it. Bye. Bye.