291: J.R.R. Tolkien's "Letters from Father Christmas"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 291: J.R.R. Tolkien’s "Letters from Father Christmas"

Date: December 23, 2025
Hosts: AJ Hanenberg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Episode Overview

In this festive episode, the hosts dive into the lesser-known but deeply endearing work of J.R.R. Tolkien: Letters from Father Christmas. They explore the origins, charm, and evolution of these annual letters Tolkien wrote and illustrated for his children between 1920 and 1943. The discussion extends to Tolkien’s legacy as a father and creator, the nature of family traditions, and the poignancy of children growing up and leaving behind youthful wonders. The episode is filled with warmth, good-natured ribbing, and a sense of genuine admiration for Tolkien’s dedication to family, storytelling, and creativity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Episode & Tolkien’s Background

• The hosts clarify the podcast is mostly about books and the classical world, with their usual self-deprecating humor.
• Initial banter includes Tolkien’s background:
  • Philologist and lover of languages
  • Friend of C.S. Lewis & member of the Inklings
  • Fought in World War I
  • Renowned for The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, as well as significant translations (Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight)
  • Emphasis on Tolkien’s "cool" personal insignia and his passion for ancient and Norse literature
• (05:07) Graeme on Tolkien’s Beowulf:

  “If you want accuracy, and I think romance is the right way to put it, then read Tolkien’s [translation]. It’s cool. It’s beautiful.”

2. Genesis and Nature of "Letters from Father Christmas"

• The letters span from 1920 to 1943, originally for Tolkien’s four children: John, Michael, Christopher, and Priscilla.
• Each year, the children received detailed, illustrated letters "from Father Christmas."
• Is Father Christmas the same as Santa Claus?
  • Discussion on the origin and evolution of Father Christmas vs. St. Nicholas/Santa.
  • (13:43) Thomas:

    “It’s like a fairy.”

  • AJ:

    “Now I'd say it's functionally merged at this point.”

• The letters are both magical and mundane, often including domestic details, mishaps, and gentle humor.

3. Tolkien the Father: Domestic Traditions & Artistic Gifts

• Letters started simple and evolved in length, detail, and cast of characters (notably the recurring North Polar Bear, elves, and goblins).
• (16:01) Illustration description:

  Thomas: “He’s trudging in the snow... big old beard, red hood with a point on it... his little house looks like a tent completely covered with snow, but got little red windows.”

• Tolkien altered his handwriting to be distinctively shaky in the letters, adding to their believability as coming from an old Father Christmas.
• Family discussion: All three hosts share personal family Christmas traditions, underscoring the meaningfulness of unique, family-made customs.

4. The Magic of the Letters:

• 1925 Letter Highlight:
  • A major “event” where the North Polar Bear, trying to help, breaks the North Pole and falls into the house, causing chaos and broken presents.
  • Artistic call-outs: Tolkien’s illustrations are lauded as “incredible” and “gorgeous”—hosts marvel at the quality.
  • Notable feature: The letters sometimes include “postscripts” written in a childlike scrawl “by” the polar bear, humorously thick and ungainly.
  • (25:58) Thomas:

    “The polar bear is now, he’s now getting in on this!”

• The stories and world-building in these letters foreshadow themes and methods Tolkien develops in his later works (expanding mythology, invented languages, fantasy adventure).

5. Evolution Toward Goodbye:

• As Tolkien’s children age, the letters become less frequent and more reflective.
• The final letter (1943) is bittersweet, directly addressing Priscilla and acknowledging the impending end of the tradition as children grow up:
  • (34:32) Thomas:

    “Didn’t want no lame letters from Santa.”

  • (36:47) AJ (reading Tolkien):

    “After this, I shall have to say goodbye, more or less... but I am very glad to hear that you are still not really miserable... don’t be. I am still very much alive and shall come back... as merry as ever.”

6. Reflections on Family, Tradition, and Growing Up

• The hosts reflect on the natural, even necessary, bittersweetness of moving on from childhood traditions as one matures:
  • (37:28) Thomas:

    “Sad but necessary.”

  • (46:31) AJ:

    “I think there is something really positive and hopeful about entering adulthood out of childhood. And there’s a sadness of leaving behind what you had, but...”

• They celebrate the “artifacts” of family culture, like Tolkien’s letters, as deeply meaningful and distinct from mass-produced or commercial traditions.
• (40:48) Thomas:

  “You want to encourage those [unique family traditions] as opposed to like, I don’t know, the industrial Elf on the Shelf complex taking over these Christmas traditions. Like, you want these emergent things to come out of family cultures.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• AJ (01:15): “We’re talking about a book. What would you call it? It has pages and a cover. It’s a collection of letters... called Letters from Father Christmas by a Mr. J.R.R. Tolkien.”
• Graeme (14:18): “It’s copyrighted by Macy’s.”
• Thomas (19:25): “Amanda and I do the 12 days of Christmas... two little reindeer that show up on every card... One’s a super excited reindeer, one’s sort of sardonic...”
• AJ (39:10): “I don’t have the artistic skills that Tolkien does... But I do have that thought of... what is the thing that you are leaving behind that you can be remembered for?”
• Thomas (41:28): “It’s not as charming and meaningful as the one that comes out of the individual genius of the mother and father producing for their kids.”

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Important Timestamps

• 00:15–02:08: Podcast’s origin, Tolkien’s background, hosts’ banter
• 05:07–06:10: On Tolkien’s translation of Beowulf and its romance
• 07:26–09:20: How Tolkien’s stories emerged from fatherhood and grew into classic books
• 10:11–12:57: Defining Father Christmas vs. Santa Claus; family traditions
• 16:01–17:40: First letter’s illustration and subterfuge in handwriting
• 21:13–26:01: Growth in letter complexity & the introduction of the North Polar Bear
• 29:17–30:57: "Rory Borealis" fireworks incident and its fantastical illustration
• 33:20–34:47: 1932 letter: Expansion into fantasy adventure, new characters, invented language
• 36:47–37:32: Final letter, the fading out of the tradition, and emotional closure
• 40:48–42:00: On unique family traditions vs. commercialized ones

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Episode Tone & Style

• Warm, collegial, humorous, and affectionate. The hosts balance erudition with easy self-deprecation, making complex literary discussion accessible.
• Reflective and poignant during moments discussing the fading of childhood traditions.
• Visually evocative as they describe Tolkien’s illustrations and their emotional effect.

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Takeaways for the Listener

• Letters from Father Christmas offers a glimpse into the personal, whimsical, and loving side of Tolkien—a side apart from his grand epics.
• The letters are a testament to the power of family traditions and small, creative gestures that leave a lasting mark far beyond one’s lifetime.
• There’s value, perhaps even necessity, in allowing children (and oneself) to gracefully transition from the enchantments of youth to the responsibilities and realities of adulthood.
• While common, commercial traditions can be wonderful, it is the unique, often quirky traditions of individual families that become the most meaningful and memorable.

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Recommended for:

• Anyone interested in Tolkien, parenting, family traditions, or the art of meaningful, personal gift-giving.
• Those searching for inspiration to craft their own family “artifacts” or rituals that will endure into the next generation.

Transcript

[AJ Hanenberg]

Foreign.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hey, everybody, and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know we're a podcast about, I don't know, history, literature. Can I. Can we just say, I don't know.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Nine years on, we don't know what the podcast is about? Incredible.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's mostly books. Mostly books. It's probably mostly books.

[Thomas Magbee]

We contain multitudes.

[AJ Hanenberg]

We do contain.

[Graham Donaldson]

We do contain multitudes. Anyway, my name is AJ Hanenberg, and I'm here with Graham Donaldson.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Hello.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Thomas Magbee.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Hi.

[Graham Donaldson]

And we are here to talk about a lineage beginning with Christmas and ending with Thomas. Whose son Christmas.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Father.

[Graham Donaldson]

If there's.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I am father.

[Graham Donaldson]

Your son Christmas. If. You're talking about Father Christmas.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Right, Interesting. So I'm talking about my dad, who is Father Christmas. Is that how this.

[Graham Donaldson]

Why would. Why else would you talk about Father Christmas?

[Thomas Magbee]

You just said the episode is about Father Christmas.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Father Christmas. And why else would I call him.

[Graham Donaldson]

That other than that's the best joke I can come up with, having woken up at like 5:45 in the morning.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Why'd you wake up so early?

[Graham Donaldson]

He had to refinish my address.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's tough, man. I stayed up late last night instead.

[Graham Donaldson]

So I always do my notes in the morning. And so, like, moving to 8am Record times has meant that I.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It's tough. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

It messes me up.

[Thomas Magbee]

Mine just emanate from the feelings within, in the moment.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So you're a transcendentalist.

[Thomas Magbee]

No, I'm just kidding.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Wait, so you don't prep. Is that what you just said to us?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Okay. He just shows up and starts talking.

[Thomas Magbee]

Shoot from the hip.

[AJ Hanenberg]

We're talking about a book. What would you call it? It has pages and a cover. It's a collection of letters. And that collection is called Letters from Father Christmas put together by a Mr. J.R.R. tolkien. I should say written by J.R.R. tolkien, but actually compiled and published by his. I believe it's his son and his wife. So Chris Tolkien, his son and his wife actually put it together and published it posthumously. But. Collection of letters that Tolkien wrote to his kids as they were growing up. I'll say a little bit about it when we get there. But J.R.R. tolkien, have we. We've covered, I guess, on fairy stories before. I'm trying to think of what other Tolkien have we done? Other Tolkien.

[Thomas Magbee]

Leaf by niggle.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then did he write anything else? Well, that's that. Yeah. We have not covered Lord of the Rings. I don't think we ever will, despite.

[Thomas Magbee]

Lots of people asking us to.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Will we ever.

[Graham Donaldson]

They got Movies for that at this.

[Thomas Magbee]

Point, it's just so much Lord of the Rings content in this world.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. We don't need to pile on.

[Thomas Magbee]

Us chuckleheads don't need to weigh in on it.

[AJ Hanenberg]

But we're chuckleheads no matter what we cover. So that's where. I don't know. Should we cover any books? So what do you know about. Tell me something about Tolkien. What do you know about the guy?

[Thomas Magbee]

Gallic.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Friends with Lewis.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Friends with Lewis. They had a little group together. They would get together and share their writings and talk about that part of the Inklings Fought in World War I. Fought in World War I. Kind of surprised his family by signing up. He opted to join World War I. He agreed to join and then I think he delayed it till the end of the graduating, basically. So he signs up in, I think, 1914 and then actually ships off in 15 or 16.

[Graham Donaldson]

But had his own logo.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Oh, so the insignia, the JRR thing. Yeah, it looks super cool. And gets put on a bunch of his books.

[Graham Donaldson]

Even as an adult. He's got a cool thing with his name.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Loves languages.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Loves languages. So he was an etymologist, wasn't he? Philologist would be the word there. And sometimes he's called an English professor. I think that's the title he chose for himself. So philology we've talked about before. It's like the study of the origin of words. The origin of. I was gonna say origin of language, but that's not quite right. It's when we say we talk about etymology, which is like you just trace back and say this word comes from the French, whatever. And that becomes a modern word.

[Thomas Magbee]

We have now, this word really means to kick a horse.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's right. But philology is like, there's more to it than just the. You found the word in another language. It's the development of that language over time.

[Thomas Magbee]

We did an episode on philology, Nietzsche, didn't we?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Because Nietzsche was also a philologist. Like, that's his formal academic study.

[Thomas Magbee]

Look at those philologists, like, rocking the foundations. I don't know.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Is this something you want to go study? Are you curious?

[Thomas Magbee]

I'm just wondering, like, Nietzsche was a philologist. Tolkien was a philologist. It's like, do you just have to. If you become a philologist, does that just mean you're going to be producing a big fire? Literature, they don't really exist.

[AJ Hanenberg]

We had someone comment of like, philology just turned into. Was it linguistics or like, there's. No, not really that same. It's at least not called the same thing anymore.

[Graham Donaldson]

But.

[AJ Hanenberg]

And maybe as a part of, I don't know, less funding to humanities and things like that there, I'm sure a division that gets cut. And so just as. So, you know, probably popularly, Tolkien would be most known for, like we said, the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, things like that. He does also translate a number of works, and I would figure you all are more familiar with this. What are some of his, like, famous translations that he works on? Beowulf is a big one.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's beautiful.

[AJ Hanenberg]

And can you say a little bit, like, is it actually. Is there something unique to the Tolkien translation of Beowulf?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, well, I use the Seamus to.

[Thomas Magbee]

Put a Hobbit in there. There's, like, also.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Well, he does get a lot from Beowulf.

[Graham Donaldson]

The Hobbit has a lot.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It's Beowulf, right? It's pretty much Beowulf. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's denied actually copying it. It's just Beowulf is in his brain as he makes the Hobbit. So his translation is gorgeous. I think it retains some of the loftiness of the verse, whereas Seamus Haney's.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Is easy to read.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's like talking to a farmer. It's all very straightforward, but if you want accuracy, and I think romance is the right way to put it, then read Tolkien's. It's cool. It's beautiful.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Wow.

[Graham Donaldson]

And in parts, more specific.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Do you ever introduce it as you're teaching it, or do you just stick with the Seamus translation?

[Graham Donaldson]

We read chunks out of it. I would love to switch to it, but my poor 9th graders couldn't handle it.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Is it. So is it more complicated?

[Graham Donaldson]

It's a little harder. Just the words are bigger in the sentence structure is a little bit tougher than the Seamus.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Heaney.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's great, but it's quite good.

[AJ Hanenberg]

But.

[Graham Donaldson]

And he has commentary, like, he does a whole commentary on why he translated certain things, certain ways.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Apparently. A pretty prominent lecture he gave about why he translated Beowulf the way he did. I have not read it, but it's a thing that comes up.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, he's also given the primary criticism called the monsters and the critics about how people go to Beowulf expecting history or expecting certain things. He's like, that's just not what it is. And here's why it's good. And.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah, let's do an episode on that. That sounds great.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's great.

[AJ Hanenberg]

You've read it before. Okay. He also translated a book. That or epic poem. I don't know that Graham is quite a Fan of. He has a Sir Gane translation.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh, does he really?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

I didn't know that.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Cool. Tolkien produced a definitive academic edition of the poem. Remains a standard text, is what it says. So there is a Tolkien.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wait, what was it originally written in?

[Thomas Magbee]

Old English.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, okay.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Not Middle English, but Old English.

[Graham Donaldson]

Old English.

[Thomas Magbee]

So similar to Beowulf.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanenberg]

And then also was a fan of Norse mythology as well, so.

[Graham Donaldson]

Which we've done episodes on, if you want to go figure those out. They're pretty funny.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Are the Poetic Eddas the same as the Elder Eddas? Does this ring a bell? I know these episodes were, like, six years ago.

[Graham Donaldson]

How do I know Eldred are the same? I can Google. I'll Google you. Keep talking.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So just, you know, the things that he was studying, like, professionally or academically, these ancient works of literature, he's doing translation day to day. Beowulf ends up being, in particular, a very significant influence on his work. Just many. You know, if you read through Beowulf and you have Lord of the Rings in mind or the Hobbit in mind, you're going to see a lot of parallels there. But that's not the episode we're doing today. In addition to all those. Go for it.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're the same thing, Elder Edda and Poetic Edda.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So it's just funny reading through his work. It's like the books that we really enjoy are the things that he spent a lot of time studying. Right. So. Would love another. I don't know, we should do another Sir Gawain episode. Cause it's a Christmas story. Right. So for his prominent. Oh, I guess I. So Tolkien is born at the end of the. I have it here. End of the 19th century. So he's born 1892, and then will not publish the Hobbit until 1937. And then, unsurprisingly, the Lord of the Rings come after that in 1954 and 1955. Right. So it takes time to build up to these works that end up being the things that we know him best for. Leading up to that, he's doing this translation work. But in addition to Tolkien being the author of these very important fantasy novels, he has a husband and a father, Right? And maybe everyone knows this, but the Hobbit comes out of stories that he's telling his children, Right? Like he has this kind of. He's telling them stories, like telling them bedtime stories, and wants to tell them something interesting. And that is what the Hobbit is. It's the thing he's telling his kid it then gets written down. A publisher sees it, tells him to submit it. He does it, becomes way more popular than he expected it to be, and then he's demanded to write a sequel. And then he puts out the three Lord of the Rings books in two years. It's 1954. He does the first two, and then 55 is Return of the King. Now, he has been working on them in that in between, but they all are. Are published over that two year cycle, which, as a. As someone who has read, like, Game of Thrones, like, you know, we're still waiting on book number six, I think, at this point. So. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anyway, we need to get Name of the Wind. What is it? The Kingkiller Chronicles, whatever it is.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Still waiting on it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is that third book ever going to come?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah, that's. Yeah. Is that going to be the last one? Is it just supposed to be a trilogy?

[Graham Donaldson]

I think so.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

The Doors of Stone.

[AJ Hanenberg]

There's a name. I didn't.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, for Rothfuss. Right? Patrick Roth's book.

[Thomas Magbee]

You guys are nerds.

[AJ Hanenberg]

You're on a classical education podcast. You are not cool.

[Thomas Magbee]

I don't read Kingfisher.

[AJ Hanenberg]

What do you read? What are you reading? I read what you read. I read Circle Wayne.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's true. I read. What am I reading? I'm reading the book that age you got me for Christmas.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Are you really?

[Thomas Magbee]

That's really good.

[AJ Hanenberg]

The history.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, the history of the Middle Ages.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Cool.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's really fun. I wondered if that would actually get really docious. I've started already. In fact, I've neglected my book club because I've been reading it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is it pretty? Like it's good?

[Thomas Magbee]

It's good. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I'm enjoying it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Other illustrations?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Oh, yeah. There's maps.

[Thomas Magbee]

I love maps.

[AJ Hanenberg]

We're gonna mostly be doing story time with Thomas, so I will be. But I feel, you know, we have YouTube watching right here, and I think all you're gonna see is the COVID as I show pictures to AJ And Graham. And if you're listening, you won't see any of the pictures.

[Thomas Magbee]

They should just come and sit in the room if they're.

[Graham Donaldson]

You should just ask us to describe the pictures. We'll each have a page.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I. There is one story in particular where that is exactly what I will be doing.

[Thomas Magbee]

Austin Willachen.

[Graham Donaldson]

Do we ever want a podcast with a crowd over there?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Can we do. Yeah, we should have the pilgrimage to Austin where people come see us, and then we. You can sit while we record Do a live podcast. We've done it in the auditorium before for Hideo, so we should do that again. Okay. So, you know, the point I'm trying to get to is that Lord of the Rings comes later in life. He is a human. He has a father. He has, like, roles other than just writing this very important book or important series. Lord of the Rings. He has four kids. John, Michael, Chris, and Priscilla. And they're born, look, in 1917-1920-1924-1929. So they're all born prior to the publication of the Hobbit. And again, like I say, it kind of comes out of him telling stories to them. So he has these four kids, and he starts a tradition with them that every Christmas, a letter is delivered. And this letter is. It's signed by. It has different names at the bottom over time, and there are different characters who are introduced over time, but they are letters from a character called Father Christmas and AJ Immediately before this podcast asked, is Father Christmas the same as Santa? Yep. And the answer is no. So as of today, yes, those would be the same person.

[Graham Donaldson]

So are they in, like, competition?

[AJ Hanenberg]

They're just, like, different people. So, like, St. Nick is, like, a real person who lived and, like, actually paid the dowries for these three girls who would have been, you know, in poverty otherwise and did some weird things about children in barrels. Children in barrels and putting them back together through a miracle. I forget what the miracle was. Probably something with pirates. Was there something with pirates, too?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't remember. I think you're thinking of Julius Caesar.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's a cool story, too, though.

[Thomas Magbee]

He was a champion of orthodoxy.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Champion of orthodoxy. And may or may not have punched Arius or an Arian or none of the above.

[Thomas Magbee]

I like to believe he did.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I'm glad you believe that.

[Graham Donaldson]

The paintings are better if he did.

[Thomas Magbee]

There's paintings?

[AJ Hanenberg]

So there's like, an actual person. There was, like, a bishop in modern day Turkey. Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Whose bones still secrete milk.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. So, like, that's a real person. And then is that why we leave.

[Thomas Magbee]

Milk and cookies out for Santa?

[AJ Hanenberg]

I like to think it is.

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know why, sir. No. I don't know if it is.

[AJ Hanenberg]

No.

[Graham Donaldson]

It could be.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's an insane theory. Absolutely not.

[Graham Donaldson]

They call it manna, and it comes from his bones, and they collect it every year in his bones. Still do it even after being moved.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So where. Do you know where his bones are?

[Graham Donaldson]

I could check. I'll Google it for you.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So many pilgrimages we're taking now. I like this. Okay. So that's like a person who actually existed. And then there's the, like, spirit of Christmas, the.

[Thomas Magbee]

The demiurge.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Oh, cool. Let's explore that one a little bit.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's the crypt in the Basilica da San Nicola in Bari, Italy. Okay, Bari. That's probably in Italy.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's where. Okay, I want to go. Let's go to Italy. And so if you ask that question of are they the same 200 years ago, the answer would be like, no, those are different people is the wrong word. It's like Father Time is not a person. It's like the idea of time. Right. So that would be what Father Christmas is. This kind of, like, concept of the spirit of the season.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's like a fairy.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah, that's probably the right way to put it. Oh, there you go. That makes sense. And now I'd say it's functionally merged at this point. I'm just reading. The U.S. customs became popular in England. Father Christmas started to take on Santa Claus attributes. His costume became more standardized, and although depictions often still showed him carrying holly, the holly crown became rarer and was often replaced with a hood. So you get that kind of, like, red hooded figure outfit, and then they become kind of the same person.

[Thomas Magbee]

Then Coca Cola buys it, and then Coca Cola.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yep. And then now there is only.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's copyrighted by Macy's.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like Santa.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That can't be right. Please tell me. Okay, I hope not. That's horrifying. But what's that? Is it Miracle on 34th Street? Is that the one with Macy's and Santa? That's still, like, a great Christmas movie.

[Thomas Magbee]

Never watched it.

[Graham Donaldson]

I also have never watched it.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I think it's. Is it the best Christmas movie? I think it's probably the best Christmas movie.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, Santa with Muscles, with Hulk Hogan.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's Christmas negative. No, Die Hard is the best one, actually.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I could get behind that. That's a terrible opinion. Okay, so Father Christmas now, kind of the same as Santa Claus, wouldn't have been a couple hundred years ago. So I don't know. The answer is. It depends. Is that most of what our answers are? So Tolkien, every Christmas would write a letter as Father Christmas, and he does this from 1920 to 1943. So in 1920, he has the birth of his second child, that's Michael. And then his oldest is three years old at that point. So he has the two kids at the point that he starts this. So I'm just gonna read through a few of these letters, and I don't know, maybe we talk about them, but really it is just mostly story time. So I'm gonna. I just want to show what the first ones look like. It's.

[Thomas Magbee]

Did he do the illustrations?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes. So this is Tolkien.

[Thomas Magbee]

Incredible.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Tolkien drew those.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes. So you're responding with shock. Why are you responding with shock?

[Thomas Magbee]

Those are so good.

[AJ Hanenberg]

They're incredible. Yeah, those are gorgeous. So this is the first one that gets written. This is 1920. And it's very short. Right. It's a single. It's not an eight and a half by 11. It's like a postcard that he's writing. Right. And then he has this beautiful illustration of Father Christmas and then where he lives at the North Pole. Anything you want to describe from these pictures?

[Thomas Magbee]

He's trudging in the snow. He's got a big old beard, red.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hood with a point on it, with.

[Thomas Magbee]

A big, pointy, pointy hood. And then his. His little house looks like. Like a tent that's complete. Like a circular tent completely covered with snow or. But it's got little red windows, like little red lamps.

[Graham Donaldson]

It looks like an alien landscape.

[Thomas Magbee]

Kind of looks like inhabited by bugs.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It does look like bugs. I see that. But did you comment on the little. Have these like red stop lights all.

[Thomas Magbee]

Along the way and these little steps leading up to his house. Yeah, it's nighttime.

[Graham Donaldson]

Are those stoplights or are those lanterns?

[AJ Hanenberg]

They're lanterns, but I think they look like stoplights. They do, kinda. Okay, so this is the first letter. This is 1920. Dear John, I heard you ask Daddy what I was like and where I lived. I have drawn me and my house for you. Take care of the picture. I am just off now for Oxford with my bundle of toys. Some for you. Hope I shall arrive in time. The snow is very thick at the North Pole tonight. Your loving Father Christmas. Aw. Now there's another thing that often gets commented on. If you look at the writing, if you look at the letter, is there something you notice about the.

[Thomas Magbee]

I mean, it's very, well, calligraphy. It's got these little loops on them.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It has loops. There's like a shakiness to it. And so it's meant to look different from his normal handwriting.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh, so he's trying to, like, mask it. Yeah, the kid's not like, dad did this.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes, exactly.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is the shaking, like, shivering like poor.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Oh, I don't know. I don't. I don't know that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is he also carrying a bag in the top photo on his back?

[AJ Hanenberg]

So Father Christmas has a bag of presents. On his back. So exactly as it, as it describes in the letter. He has his presence and he's showing what his house looks like because apparently John, so John being his oldest, who's 3 years old, had asked about Father Christmas, who he was, what he was like. So it's the first one. It's I guess maybe. I think this is coming out the Tuesday before Christmas. We're obviously recording it before then. What will you all be doing on Christmas Day? What's the plan for this year?

[Graham Donaldson]

Spending with my sister and brother in law in Fort Worth.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Awesome.

[Thomas Magbee]

I'll be in Dallas with my in laws. We'll wake up, I think I'm making cinnamon buns and opening presents and watching football.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Awesome. And then we'll be. So we have it where like extended family. Christmas will be either before, you know, we put it before or after Christmas Day. Christmas Day is like just us, the three kids. And so we, yeah, put off them opening presents as long as we can because otherwise they'd wake up at 4 in the morning. And then time together as a family.

[Thomas Magbee]

That is a sacred duty as a father is that you need to drag your feet on Christmas morning. That's just like part of the joy.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I need to frustrate my children.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. My parents had a rule where we could open our stockings but we weren't allowed to talk to them until 9am like they got to sleep in. They did not want to talk to us. And then at 9am we would run in and jump on them and then we'd come out and do presents.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It was great in light. Are there other traditions that you either have now or had growing up?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, we slept under the Christmas tree a lot.

[AJ Hanenberg]

We really like Christmas Eve into Christmas.

[Graham Donaldson]

You sleep not, not like that night, but usually that the night like Christmas Day, we would sleep under the tree. Like we would sleep under the tree at some point kind of in a crew. We also use because my family is enormous and we all have massive feet. We would use either our socks like I eventually use my socks or my dad's socks as our stockings. We don't have those pretty wonderful stockings. They were like old tube socks with different colors, some of them kind of.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Worn with holes in them.

[Graham Donaldson]

And that's, that's what we crammed full of stockings.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's great.

[Graham Donaldson]

Which was super fun.

[Thomas Magbee]

Amanda and I do the 12 days of Christmas. So from, from 12 days we do a gift for the 12 days. And although mine aren't as elaborate as J.R.R. tolkien's pictures, I have this. These two little reindeer that show up on every little card for the 12 days of Christmas. One is a super excited reindeer who's just jazzed about everything. And one is sort of this like sardonic reindeer who's somewhat like apathetic to it all, but he still participates in all the Christmas cheer. And the pictures of the reindeer doing things correspond to whatever the gift is.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Oh, so have you. Had you always done that or is this something.

[Thomas Magbee]

It was something that I did as a little joke in our first year of marriage because we had no money so we gave each other like coupons for things. Like, I can't remember what the coupons were. It was like, I'll take the garbage out when it's your time to take it. You know, silly things like this. But because we had no cash and so I drew all the reindeer. But then for the last 15 years, the reindeer have just persisted every year in Christmas on all of her Christmas cards.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So I think that is what I wanted to get is like. So the starts is a very simple.

[Thomas Magbee]

Tradition that he's doing exactly what mine was like two reindeer on a Christmas card. And she loved them.

[AJ Hanenberg]

And it's. And I think that's, you know, the collection of the letters is just the collection.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right.

[Thomas Magbee]

There's no commentary saying I'm a modern Tolkien.

[AJ Hanenberg]

You're a modern Tolkien. 100%.

[Graham Donaldson]

Did he sign the picture FC down there in the bottom right corner?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah, Father Christmas.

[Graham Donaldson]

He signed the picture painter Father Christmas.

[AJ Hanenberg]

And then he labels it. The first one says me for a picture of him. And then my house is the bottom one.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, that's adorable.

[AJ Hanenberg]

But I just have the feeling it starts out with this one letter he wrote to his three year old. And he's like, haha, isn't this funny? And then I'm not gonna, I'm not reading through every single one of them, but you just see that he increases the number of them over time. And then for the one we'll pick up 1925, it's like, this is a full letter.

[Thomas Magbee]

Jam packed.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes. And this is actually. This is just the first part of the letter. There's also a postscript and then a full page of pictures. So even a larger set of pictures than what he produced in the first.

[Graham Donaldson]

So he doesn't do pictures every year?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Not every year. In these early ones.

[Thomas Magbee]

Some years he has grading, grading to do.

[AJ Hanenberg]

He says that in. It's a later. It's after the 25 one. I'll just read. He wrote two in 1924 for the two kids. I think he had a. His third was born that year also. But here's one of them he wrote in. 24. Dear Michael, I'm very busy this year. No time for letter. Lots of love. Hope the engine goes well. Take care of it. A big kiss with love, Father Christmas. So it's not, you know, not every one of these is the work of art that the first was or that some of the later ones are as well. 25. 1925 is where we get kind of. This is probably the most famous of the stories, the most famous of the letters to the degree that any of these are. Had you read these? Have you heard of this before? Letters before Christmas? No, not at all. Okay, so I'll read this part. I'll show you the pictures next, and you'll. We'll jump back and forth. So. Cliff House, top of the world, near the North Pole, Christmas, 1925. My dear boys, I am dreadfully busy this year. It makes my hand more shaky than ever when I think of it. And not very rich. In fact, awful things have been happening and some of the presents have got spoiled. And I haven't got the North Pole bear to help me. And I have had to move house just before Christmas. So you can imagine what a state everything is in. And you will see why I have a new address and why I can only write one letter between you both. I think I mentioned the previous year he had done two letters for the two older kids, and now he's only writing one letter.

[Thomas Magbee]

Mm.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It all happened like this one very windy day last November. My hood blew off and went and stuck on the top of the North Pole. I told. So it's on the pool. Yeah. So if you see his hat. So this is the picture that accompanies it. This is that house from before. You see that little hat that's up there? There's a hat on top. Some other things happen. And I'll explain what's happening in that picture. I told him not to, but the North Pole bear. There's a North Pole bear. So. Characters I now love. Okay, cool. The North Pole bear climbed up to the thin top. So the top of his house to get it down. And he did. The pole broke in the middle and fell on the roof of my house. And the north polar bear fell through the hole it made into the dining room with my hood over his nose. And all the snow fell off the roof into the house and melted and put out all the fires and ran down into the cellars where I was collecting this year's presents. And the north polar bear's leg got broken.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh, no. Jeez.

[AJ Hanenberg]

He is well again now, but I was so cross with him that he says he won't try to help me again. I expect his temper is hurt and will be mended by next Christmas. Okay.

[Thomas Magbee]

But he doesn't know he's got, like, structural damage to his house.

[AJ Hanenberg]

He does. So tell me about structural damage in picture on the top, can you see it kind of.

[Thomas Magbee]

Well, it looks like there's a big hole in the roof.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. So there's a tree where presumably the hood was. Bear tries to climb up tree falls over, destroys his house.

[Graham Donaldson]

And he's out front raising his hands like, oh, no.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Father Christmas is really mad about this. So Tolkien, he drew this wonderful picture to go along with it. He has notes on the outside.

[Graham Donaldson]

How long has this guy been doing art? Those are so true.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Isn't that incredible? Yeah. Does he do any of the.

[Thomas Magbee]

He doesn't. All the famous art on the books was done by somebody else.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is that all? It looks like watercolor.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Is that watercolor? I do not know.

[Thomas Magbee]

In fact, apparently the Tolkien. Tolkien did do pictures for his own books, but they are, like, trippy as heck.

[Graham Donaldson]

Really?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

There are a lot. They're like the. The. The visual representation we associate with Tolkien is done by this other illustrator who did it for his books. But his versions of, like, the elves and everything is like. They're really.

[AJ Hanenberg]

But we still have them really out there. That's cool. I want to go look that up. That's really interesting.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm looking them up now.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah, do it. So the. His house, Father Christmas's house gets ruined. And he presumably, as. As you can understand, is not happy about this. So Father Christmas continues. I send you a picture of the accident and of my new house on the cliffs above the North Pole with beautiful cellars in the cliffs. If John can't read my old shaky writing, 1925 years old, he must get his father to. When is Michael going to learn to read and write his own letters to me? Lots of love to you both and Christopher, whose name is rather like mine. That's all. Goodbye, Father Christmas. And then we get a postscript by the polar bear. Polar bear writes postscript. Father Christmas was in a great hurry. Told me to put in one of his magic wishing crackers as you pull wish and see if it doesn't come true. Excuse thick writing. I have a fat paw. I help Father Christmas with his packing. I live with him. I am the great polar bear.

[Thomas Magbee]

The polar bear is now he's now getting in on this.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So take a look at this. That's.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh, my word.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So what is different about this letter.

[Thomas Magbee]

Compared to the other? It looks like a child made it.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes. So very. He mentions in the letter. It's like very thick writing. It's like if you change the thickness of your pen, it's like more ink is coming out now. It does look painted, doesn't it? Like, it doesn't. It doesn't look written. And maybe that's the kind of calligraphy pen or whatever he's using.

[Thomas Magbee]

I live with him. I am the Great. In parentheses, polar bear.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes. Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

These illustrations are. I'm in love with them.

[AJ Hanenberg]

You're looking at the Lord of the Rings ones that Tolkien did.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. And even just some of his other paintings.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Like, what is that?

[Graham Donaldson]

It's a mountain with three different levels to it. And then there's a conversation with Smaug, which is such a fun little illustration.

[Thomas Magbee]

That one. Yeah, that one's a famous one.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's really cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

They're so cool. I had no idea he did art.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's beautiful.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's our real takeaway from this. I like that. All right, let me move on to. I'll do a few more of these and then we can go from there. This is 1926. This is just the following year, so 1926. Cliff House, top of the world, near the North Pole. Monday, December 20, 1926. My dear boys, I am more shaky than usual this year. The North Polar bear, he was pretty shaky last year, too. I don't know.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's pretty shaky.

[AJ Hanenberg]

If this were shaky, like, I wish my handwriting were this good. Something else but the North Polar bear's fault. It was the biggest bang in the world and the most monstrous fireworks there ever has been. It turned the North Pole black and shook all the stars out of place. Broke the moon into four. And the man in it fell into my back garden. He ate quite a lot of my Christmas chocolates before he said he felt better and climbed back to mend it and get the stars tidy. Then I found out the reindeer had broken loose. They were running all over the country, breaking reins and ropes and tossing presents up in the air. They were all packed up to start, you see. Yes, it only happened this morning, but it was a sleigh load of chocolate things which I always send to England early. I hope yours are not badly damaged, but isn't the North Polar Bear silly? And he isn't a bit sorry? Of course he did it, so he hasn't Said what happened yet?

[Thomas Magbee]

We gotta start talking about this bear.

[AJ Hanenberg]

This bear is causing problems. He's got some issues. Right. And so something chaotic has happened. He broke the moon into four pieces, which is pretty rough. We're going to find out what happened.

[Thomas Magbee]

Some sort of intervention.

[AJ Hanenberg]

We got to talk to this guy. Of course he did it. You remember I had to move last year because of him. We just read that. Okay. The tap for turning on the. This is how he writes the Rory Borealis. That's how he writes it. Fireworks. So the tap for turning on the Rory Borealis fireworks is still in the cellar of my old house. The north polar bear knew he must never, never touch it. I only let it off on special days, like Christmas. He says he thought it was cut off since we moved. Anyway, he was nosing round the ruins this morning soon after breakfast. He hides things to eat there and turned on all the northern lights for two years in one go. You have never heard or seen anything like it. I have tried to draw a picture of it, but I am too shaky to do it properly. And you can't paint fizzing lights, can you? This is his picture of two years worth of fireworks going off. Are you ready? Look at that.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's fun. Wow.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Isn't that beautiful?

[Graham Donaldson]

That's so pretty.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Describe. Tell me about it. What do you see?

[Graham Donaldson]

It's like a black sun kind of behind what looks like maybe the North Pole.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Is that kind of the deal?

[Graham Donaldson]

So it's sitting behind the North Pole. And then it has ring after ring after ring of different color of flame, ending with purple and then into blue and yellow and red and then down into green.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It makes me think of a peacock. But the colors of the rainbow, as you go further out from the body of the peacock out to the ends of the tail.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's an easier way to say it.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. Graham. Any other.

[Thomas Magbee]

That was very charming.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. So this polar bear has set off all of the fireworks for two years, and Father Christmas is none too happy about it.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's like a solar flare.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It is exactly what it looks like. All the electronics went out. All the. Isn't that what happens?

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay, what's that called?

[AJ Hanenberg]

The. What was the mp. Is that.

[Thomas Magbee]

No, no. There was the big solar flare in like the 1840s called the Carrington. Carrington Incident. You heard about this? Oh, it was one of the biggest recorded solar flares. We didn't have enough electronics, but any electronics that we did have were all fried. So, like telegraph wires and stuff were all fried? Yeah. The Carrington event is what it's called. And if we had another Carrington event to the same level that this one was, we all our. We would sort of fry our satellites and a lot of the electronic. Unprotected electronic devices and stuff.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Tell me more depressing. I don't want to.

[Thomas Magbee]

The thing is, we've been actually having crazy solar flares the past couple weeks. Did you hear. Read about this? Our sun's been. Yeah, that's why we have those crazy. Remember we had northern lights in Texas.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yep. Was it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is it because of that comet?

[AJ Hanenberg]

It's because of the Rory Borealis. I thought it was because of the fireworks.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's a coincidence. The comet did pass by the sun and then we did have some of the massive solar flares that we've had in decades. But, you know, it's just a coincidence, but. But yeah, we've had some. This is why we had northern lights down here in Texas.

[Graham Donaldson]

When do we have northern lights?

[Thomas Magbee]

About two weeks ago.

[Graham Donaldson]

No way.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I'm sad.

[Thomas Magbee]

I missed it, in fact, on the 19th. So in a couple of days, that is going to be the day that the comet is the closest to Earth, on December 19th.

[Graham Donaldson]

And that's when it's all happening.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's when it's going down.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So the cows, they stole.

[Thomas Magbee]

No, it's the star. Bethlehem is back.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Wow. I'm very curious what your episode is going to be about.

[Thomas Magbee]

So.

[Graham Donaldson]

What?

[Thomas Magbee]

We may not actually. This episode may not ever reach the air.

[Graham Donaldson]

My question is, what. What gifts will you give if not frankincense and myrrh? Is it going to be like, I mean, Gucci set? Gucci set. Gucci and Armani.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I don't know what to respond to any of that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Cool.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So Father Christmas is really cool. So there's an explosion. It's a beautiful picture. I'll skip over most of the in between, but this is where you see Tolkien doing what happens ultimately in the Lord of the Rings. That, like you, kind of. The Hobbit is a very. It's a story for kids. Right. It came out of him telling stories to literally, his children, gets published.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's a crescendo, is what you're saying.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes. And then Lord of the Rings expands that mythology, expands that universe. And then I'm sure there's more. I'm not looking at the chronology of all the Middle Earth writings, but kind of it just expands and expands from there. Right. We get new characters introduced over time. Father Christmas is always there. Polar bear sticks around. There are elves that are introduced I actually probably won't read through it. But BY there's the 1932 letter. I'm just going to flip through and show you who are sitting here with me that most of these other ones were single pages. And now we're looking at like a six or seven page letter that he's writing. He creates a language for the people who live in the North Pole. And he introduces that there are goblins. And in this 1932 letter, there's like a battle between the goblins and the polar bear happening under the North Pole. People often look at that as like, it feels like the beginning of what would be Middle Earth or the Battle.

[Graham Donaldson]

Of the Five Armies.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. And I don't think there's a dragon in this story. I forget if there's one in another story. But, you know, this is only a few years before the Hobbit will be published. And he's kind of looking at this more kind of adventure side of fantasy. But it's kind of like he's playing around with these ideas here. And again, like, I don't think he's really thinking of publishing anything that becomes Lord of the Rings at this point. They're just things to entertain his kids. But you can see that the story's starting even at that point. Okay. And then these stories continue through. I mentioned 1939, and I'll just read the. The last one. So, you know, over time his kids get older. Right. I actually got the year wrong. The Last one is 1943. But by 1943, his oldest is 26, his second is 23, his third is 19, and his youngest would be in her teens. Would that be 14 years old? And so, as you might imagine, they.

[Thomas Magbee]

Didn'T want no lame letters from Santa.

[AJ Hanenberg]

They're aging out of this. And the letters are addressed to different people over time. So we saw the first one, when his oldest was 3 years old, is addressed to him. This final one will be addressed to Priscilla, his youngest. And I think we'll list her age in here. But I'll just read the letter. It's a short one you can see here. Cliff House, North Pole Christmas 1943. My dear Priscilla, a very happy Christmas. I suppose you will be hanging up your stocking just once more. I hope so, for I have still a few little things for you. After this, I shall have to say goodbye, more or less. I mean, I shall not forget you. We always keep the old numbers of our old friends and their letters. And later on we hope to come back when they are grown up. And have houses of their own and children. My messengers tell me that people call it grim this year. I think they mean miserable. He's writing in 1943. So the war. Right. I think they mean miserable. And so it is, I fear, in very many places where I was specially fond of going. But I am very glad to hear that you are still not really miserable. Don't be. I am still very much alive and shall come back again soon as merry as ever. There has been no damage in my country. And though my. Though my stocks are running rather low, I hope soon to put that right. His food is running low. Right. Polar bear, too tired to write himself, so he says, sends a special message to you. Love and a hug. He says, do ask if she still has a bear called Silly Billy or something like that, or is he worn out? Give my love to the others, John and Michael and Christopher, and of course, to all your pets that you used to tell me about. Polar bear and all the cubs are very well. They have really.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh, polar bear's got kids.

[AJ Hanenberg]

They've got kids now. They have really been very good this year and have hardly had time to get into any mischief. I hope you will find most of the things that you wanted. And I am very sorry that I have no cat's tongues left, but I have sent nearly all the books you asked for. I hope your stocking will seem full. Very much love from your old friend, Father Christmas. And then he draws. This is just the night sky, right? The earth or the moon, probably Earth there and then moon and Mars, it looks like in the picture, and says a Merry Christmas. And that is it.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's the last one.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. It's reminiscent of we did Winnie the Pooh a while ago. And that first Winnie the Pooh story, also written to A.A. milne's son, Christopher Robin. C.R. right. Is. It ends with Christopher Robin leaving the Hundred Acre woods to go and live his life because.

[Thomas Magbee]

Be an accountant or whatever.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. Because there was a time for the stories. There was a time for the Hundred Acre woods, and he outgrew it and was ready to go out into the world from there. And in the same way these letters were written for Tolkien's kids as they were growing up, but they reached a point where they had outgrown that and then they're sent off to go and do go and be adults at that point.

[Thomas Magbee]

Sad but necessary.

[AJ Hanenberg]

It doesn't. I don't know. It feels right.

[Thomas Magbee]

Sad. It feels right. Definitely feels right.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Because I don't know how I would feel about this if these Letters go into like the kids 40s. Right.

[Thomas Magbee]

Like, well, do you think we've had. Maybe this isn't the direction you want to take it. And if so we can save it for the in between. But the like the. That there is something maybe natural and necessary for people to leave aside the worlds of their childhood to enter the real world as opposed to like being a Star wars fan in your 40s or whatever.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I think that's right.

[Thomas Magbee]

We maybe talk about that in the in between because I know it's probably not the direction you want to continue with this.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I just wanted to just to, you know, I have two data points, therefore I have a trend. Right. But there's something I like to that of the. I like what you're pointing to and I think it's an important part of this that really at that point the kids should be. They should now become Father Christmas to their children as opposed to Tolkien going on. I'm not aware of that having continued. And maybe it did and just hasn't been compiled or published.

[Thomas Magbee]

But does this make you feel like you need to step up your father game?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. I got nothing on this. My kids are a huge fan. They love this book. They love the stories, they love the pictures. There are some longer ones in the middle that just straight up. It's like Tolkien was cooking on Lord of the Rings and just wanted to put it into his Father Christmas story. It's just like they are not into that. He builds a. What's conlang? A constructed language. He has a constructed goblin language and I think a constructed Elvish language in this that my kids have no interest in. But the silly stories of polar bear falling over are always entertaining.

[Thomas Magbee]

Very charming.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. So I don't see myself. I don't have the artistic skills that Tolkien does that. Yeah, Very impressive there. But you got AI. I do have AI that could draw this for me. But I do have that thought of. It's either what are the traditions for every Christmas or what is the thing that you are leaving behind that you can be remembered for. And I think Tolkien gave a great gift to his children. He's not just the guy who writes these incredible books. He's like a father who shows great care and concern for his family. And he never expected this to be published.

[Thomas Magbee]

Sure.

[AJ Hanenberg]

This was supposed to be just for.

[Thomas Magbee]

Internal family cultural thing.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yes. Which I'm grateful was compiled and then published, but it wasn't for that purpose.

[Thomas Magbee]

I love the fact that families have their own internal artifacts like this. The reliance on having some sort of External thing that instead creates a family culture. I get it. But I love when families have their own individual things. I always ask my students the last day before we go to Christmas break, what's like the one of your big sort of central core family traditions of the things that you do? There's all sorts of wacky things that are super fun. Yeah. And, but you know, I, I, you, you want to encourage those things as opposed to like, I don't know, the industrial Elf on the Shelf complex or whatever be taking over these Christmas traditions. Like, you want these kinds of like, emergent things to come out of family cultures. I love it.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's interesting because you're saying it shouldn't be flattened to be the same tradition for everyone.

[Thomas Magbee]

I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just like, if we have to rely on, like, popular traditions to become our family traditions, that's fine. But it's, it's not as charming and meaningful as the one that sort of comes out of the, the individual genius of the mother and father producing things for their kids. Right. I, I think that sort of productive, creative family generated thing is much more, what's the word I'm looking for? Not wholesome, but like, it's meaningful.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Right.

[Thomas Magbee]

Meaningful. Right. Like it's then, then something that's, that's like mass produced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though I don't have problems with like, we all watch Hallmark movies or we all like people do Elf on the Shelf and that's. I do watch Hallmark movies. My.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Can we explore this?

[Thomas Magbee]

So my goal with a Hallmark movie is to try to guess the ending, but then also the subplot and as much of the plot as I can earliest in the movie. And I'm pretty good at it now. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

We played 10 minutes.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So after 10 minutes of the movie, you have to be able to say, like, what is going to be the big misunderstanding?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, there's going to be a big misunderstanding. Yep.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is it going to be because she sees him, like, hug his old, like his sister or his cousin and she's like, oh my gosh, it's a girlfriend or something happens and then is she gonna get stuck in the snow? Is she gonna be reunited with him on some sort of like, project that they have to work on together? Like, what's the, what's gonna happen? Usually it's a storm. She gets caught in the storm.

[AJ Hanenberg]

And like, do you watch the whole movie after guessing this or do you just, like, look up the plot on Wikipedia?

[Thomas Magbee]

You guess it. So you watch the movie. So the one that I was. I. Amanda and her mom are watching one. And I just came in for like four, five minutes. And it was. She was a busied and harried executive working at a Christmas ornament business.

[Graham Donaldson]

Had she lost the spirit?

[Thomas Magbee]

And she had lost the spirit and she didn't know what to do. And she was like. And so then she went to the small town wherein she was going to like a festival or something of Christmas ornaments. And she was looking for the next big Christmas ornament that would make the company the most money that they could.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Wow.

[Thomas Magbee]

But she had lost the mojo. And when she was there, she sort of like somewhat fell in love with a guy who was a woodworker. And he didn't really. He just loved the work of wood, but he could never really make any money with it.

[AJ Hanenberg]

And.

[Thomas Magbee]

But he just loved the. The. The small town values that he lived and his woodworking. And of course, what obviously happens is they combine forces and he makes Christmas ornaments that are wildly successful, and then they're both independently wealthy, and then they're both rich. And then she moves to that town and then they run this factory. And I guess that just with a conversation. And then I got yelled at, leave. You're ruining the movie. And then I left. And then when Amanda came, I said, so what happened at the end? She said, everything you said was what happened.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's half the fun of the Hallmark movie. We also play a Hallmark bingo game where you can print out Hallmark movie bingo sheets. And it's like, is involved in a small town. The main character is an executive or assistant to an executive. Like, et cetera, et cetera. Their Christmas joy man is weirdly independently wealthy. There's some sort of festival that everyone's involved in in the small town.

[Thomas Magbee]

Our Christmas themed amusement park is failing.

[Graham Donaldson]

The town comes together in, like a show of goodwill towards some. Someone that needs help. Like, it's so fun.

[Thomas Magbee]

I like this. But this is our own. Yeah, the age. It's your own internal family Christmas traditions. It's very much more charming than you.

[Graham Donaldson]

Could easily make it into a drinking game.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Okay, cool.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's also part of family traditions as you get older.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Okay. Yeah. Let's take more of that for the in between because I think this will. This will. Yeah. So do you do.

[Thomas Magbee]

Before we end. Do you have. Has this spawned a desire to like, do you have that. Do you want to produce things? Do you think it's been. It's a good thing for. For that sort of like it fun little Silly things, not, you know, the children at the holidays.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I struggle with this because I like. So when you were talking about like the commercialization or like kind of habits that everyone does, I find great meaning in Christmas trees or advent wreaths or Christmas lights, which are like very normal, basic things that everyone does for Christmas. I know people all do them in their own way. So there's some like uniqueness. I feel a little weird about just like taking another tradition and then just stealing it. I'm sure we've talked about this. It's one of those things where I could see the first year being really fun, but then like us making it a capital T, tradition that has to be done every year becomes like a crushing.

[Thomas Magbee]

Well, the thing is you can see every, every now and then it's. You get a Christmas letter that's like, hey man, I'm super busy, like, enjoy your toys.

[Graham Donaldson]

But like he phones it in.

[AJ Hanenberg]

But like the kids be bummed.

[Thomas Magbee]

The kids would be super. That's what I was thinking in 1926, whatever. The kid would be like, this is all I get from Santa.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah. And it's like I've waited all year for this and then this is the letter. So I'm not sure I could handle that.

[Thomas Magbee]

I want, I wanted to look and see if the next year after that it was a much more elaborate one. Like if every time he kind of phoned it in, if the next one was like a super long page with like epic pictures and like inventory.

[AJ Hanenberg]

I think you're onto something because this is 24, the one I read. And then 25 is huge. And that's the one.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's when they introduced the polar bear.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah, that's right. So. And there is another short one later on. I'm not going to find it in time, but even it comes with a picture, if I'm remembering correctly.

[Thomas Magbee]

Do you read the last one as kind of like a sad they're being crushed by those mean spiritedness of the war? Or do you see that as like just sort of a natural end to a family tradition because the girl's now 15?

[AJ Hanenberg]

I think there is something really like positive and hopeful about entering adulthood out of childhood. And there's a sadness of leaving behind what you had, but a.

[Thomas Magbee]

But you don't want to. But extending it feels sadder to stay there.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Right. And so I. It has a kind of sad tone probably because of the war and the, and the going away of these letters. But I think it's ultimately like hopeful of, you know, his thing of like I Don't forget you. I still have, like, I still will know who you are. It's like a. So long.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[AJ Hanenberg]

So I think. I think it is hopeful ultimately, but it kind of come. It comes off as sad because of having to leave behind a tradition she probably loved.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay.

[AJ Hanenberg]

All right. All done.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, this has been classical stuff. You should know. You can check us out on [e-mail] Classical stuff.

[Thomas Magbee]

We do send us Christmas pictures.

[Graham Donaldson]

You can. I would love.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Can we get Christmas cards? Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

What the heck?

[AJ Hanenberg]

Do we have a P.O. box? Oh, yeah. Do we? No.

[Thomas Magbee]

I don't know.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Not.

[Graham Donaldson]

A P.O.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Box sends us stuff.

[Graham Donaldson]

People send stuff to Veritas every now and again.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, they sure do.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Look up the address. I don't want to say it on this podcast, but we work at Veritas. Send us an email. You can send us a Christmas card by email. I would love that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Email, Christmas cards. Those are good.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

How did this become us just begging for stuff.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Oh, sorry. So you can go to our Patreon.

[Graham Donaldson]

You can go to Patreon. That's true. I guess we are begging, but we provide a service there. You can, on our Patreon, find some in between episodes that we do. We do a monthly ama and then we also have a chat that we engage in a lot where occasionally you can find pictures of Donaldson in a bubble machine or pictures of dogs or whatever.

[AJ Hanenberg]

That's an old one. Wasn't that, like.

[Graham Donaldson]

That was a while ago? Don't you remember when we did a photo shoot, there was a bubble machine on the balcony down there.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Those are some cool photos.

[Graham Donaldson]

That was like 90s band.

[AJ Hanenberg]

Like the black and white picture, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

You can ask the Oracle.

[Graham Donaldson]

You can ask the Oracle, but we tend to interact with that a lot more than we do our email, which is the [e-mail] we read all those, but we can't always answer all of them. We get quite a few. And you can find us on the Twits at lsscal Stuff. Graham will like your post on occasion. And I think that's all the places, right? Yep, those are all the places. Anyway, happy Christmas. I hope you guys have a merry one and I hope you guys have some good traditions. This is a bit of a shorter episode and we can send you off to do family traditions together. But this is a Merry Christmas from us to you.

[AJ Hanenberg]

We hope you have a good one. Bye. Bye, Sam.