293: Cinderella

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 293: Cinderella

Date: January 13, 2026
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Episode Overview

In this episode, A.J., Graeme, and Thomas delve into the classic fairy tale of Cinderella, exploring its various versions, cultural backgrounds, and the deeper moral questions embedded in the story. The hosts approach Cinderella as both a simple folk tale and a text rich with historical, linguistic, and psychological nuance, aiming to make the classical world accessible and enjoyable for both educators and enthusiasts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cinderella in Popular Memory

• The hosts open with humorous banter about animal helpers and the Disney version’s influence on cultural memory.
• Key Elements Recalled:
  • Glass slipper
  • Fairy godmother
  • Evil stepsisters
  • Prince Charming
  • The time constraint (leave before midnight)

“When I say Cinderella, what are things that you remember from the story that are particularly important?”
— Thomas Magbee (02:44)

• They note the presence of much darker versions of the story, such as the stepsisters mutilating their feet to fit the slipper.

2. Glass Slipper—Origin Myths and Poetic Choices

• Discussion arises about the famous "glass slipper" possibly being a mistranslation—“verre” (glass) vs. “vair” (fur).
• Thomas cites most scholars think Charles Perrault deliberately chose "glass" for poetic reasons (04:36).
• The hosts humorously debate the practicality (or lack thereof) of glass footwear.

"You can dance online on stuff, but you're not pastoral."
— Thomas Magbee (03:52)

3. Reading Perrault’s Cinderella (Blue Fairy Book version)

• Thomas provides narrative detail with interspersed commentary, observations, and questions from the group.
• Notable historical detail: The name “Cinderella” comes from tending the hearth, covered in cinders (“cinderwinch”) (06:18).

4. Transformation Scene & Animal Helpers

• The magical transformation is dissected, with hosts drawing distinctions between Disney-fication (talking mice, animal labor) and Perrault’s text (mice and lizards simply used as vehicles/footmen).
• Humorous speculation: What would a mouse-turned-horse think of its new appetite? (11:26)

5. The Ball, the Dress, and the Midnight Rule

• The fairy godmother's enchantment and its time limitations prompt speculation about the narrative necessity or fairy caprice.
• The moment of Cinderella’s radiant entrance is noted for its social effect—everything stops when she arrives (15:29).

“That’s what you want. When you walk into a room, that’s exactly what you want.”
— Graeme Donaldson (15:29)

6. Kindness and Moral Virtue

• Cinderella’s goodness is highlighted—she’s not just beautiful but gracious, even toward her stepsisters.
• Discussion on the moral universe of the tale: “It’s not just that Cinderella looks really pretty, therefore she gets the prince. It’s that she is good to people around her, and she’s rewarded for that.”
  — Thomas Magbee (22:56)

"Do you think moral goodness makes you more attractive, more beautiful?"
— Graeme Donaldson (23:30)

7. Historical Roots and Variant Versions

• Strabo’s Geographica cited as an ancient “Cinderella” prototype: an eagle delivers a sandal to the king, who seeks out its owner (17:32).
• French vs. Germanic traditions:
  • Charles Perrault’s version (1697) is central to what most recognize as Cinderella.
  • Brothers Grimm (1812) is far darker, with the stepsisters mutilating their feet and being blinded by pigeons.

8. Comparing Perrault and Grimm

• Perrault: Emphasizes kindness, forgiveness, and a happy ending for even the stepsisters.
• Grimm: Adds shocking elements—mutilation, vengeful justice from nature (pigeons peck out stepsisters’ eyes) (36:04).
• The hosts express a preference for the Perrault version due to its grace and closure for all characters, but also appreciate the “heavy metal” quality of the Grimm retributions (38:36).

9. Pedagogy: How Should We Teach Stories?

• The hosts reflect on whether children should be told a story’s moral overtly, or simply absorb it over time.
• Reference to Andrew Kern’s idea that stories work best when left unmoralized in childhood, allowing the narrative to work on the soul and for interpretation to come with maturity (40:04).
• Comparison with Bible stories—investing in familiarity over immediate analysis.

“The only risk of moralizing is you flatten the story into its moral. The stories are good because the story is good, not just because of some moral message you get.”
— Thomas Magbee (44:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the glass slipper:

“A glass slipper, like, I’m serious. Like, you make one wrong step and you’ve got... you need surgery. It’s a bad idea.”
— Thomas Magbee (03:59)

On Cinderella’s grace:

“She is showing grace to... the union of those two things... it’s not just that Cinderella looks really pretty, therefore she gets the prince. It’s that she is good to people around her, and she’s rewarded for that.”
— Thomas Magbee (22:56)

On not over-moralizing:

“The only risk of moralizing is you flatten the story into its moral... Maybe that’s good when you’re 12 or 15. But then when you, like, reread it again at 26... that moral doesn’t contain everything that’s in this story.”
— Graeme Donaldson (45:41)

On Grimm’s pigeons:

“I do like the idea of some heavy metal pigeons... pecking out eyes, keeping justice.”
— Thomas Magbee (38:36)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:12 – 04:36: Opening banter; common elements of Cinderella; the glass slipper debate
• 06:18 – 10:00: Cinderella’s background and the origin of her name; transformation scene
• 15:29: Cinderella arrives at the ball; the reaction of the court
• 22:39 – 23:34: Cinderella’s kindness to her stepsisters; moral beauty
• 17:32 / 33:12 / 35:05: Ancient versions of the Cinderella story; the French version; Brothers Grimm version (foot mutilation and pigeon justice)
• 39:53 – 46:11: Teaching children with/without explicit morals; stories as vehicles for deeper meaning over time

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Section Summaries

The Cinderella Archetype

The hosts break down the key plot elements and explore their origins, including debates over which early versions predate the popular French tale.

Thematic Analysis

The conversation highlights fairy tale tropes—virtue rewarded, ugliness (moral or physical) punished, and the relationship between kindness and beauty.

Pedagogical Reflection

A significant portion contemplates how stories work over time in young listeners, criticizing the tendency toward hasty moralization and advocating for exposure, familiarity, and later reflection.

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Conclusion

The episode mixes lively humor with serious classical inquiry, using Cinderella as a lens to discuss folklore, translation, cultural evolution, and educational philosophy. The hosts’ shared affection for both the tale and its enduring lessons comes through, ultimately championing stories that are “good because the story is good”—living, not flattened by a single moral.

For Further Inquiry:
Get the Blue Fairy Book or listen to more episodes for in-depth exploration of classic tales!

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End of summary

Transcript

[A]

Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know. A podcast about classical books, classical works, the old world education, and stuff like that. My name is Graham Donaldson, and I am here with my two friends in classical education. Learning books, book stuff. AJ Hanneberg, me and Thomas Magby, me and boys. When I came in this morning, all I noticed there was, like, little animals running around the room, setting up our microphones, brewing us coffee. There were. I was a little cold, and all of a sudden, two little birds came flying in with a. With a jacket for me.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And they placed it up upon my broad shoulders.

[C]

Way to slide that in there.

[B]

YouTube will know better.

[A]

I needed some cream in my coffee, and all of a sudden, like, a little weevil showed up with a pitcher of cream. And I realized that this is how the world works, that small woodland creatures are there to serve mankind and love us. And they were singing a happy song. And Thomas is going to give us the history of such things in his reading of Cinderella.

[B]

I'm just gonna read you the story. We're talking about Cinderella. We're back to the Blue fairy book. So I. You know, so, you know, we're texting about preparing for today, and Graham has an episode. AJ Says yesterday that he doesn't have an episode. So I'm like, I probably need to have an episode.

[C]

Way to out me on the podcast.

[B]

Oh, it's okay. I was gonna move right past, and I'm like, oh, I prepared an episode. I have an episode ready. And I didn't present it. At one of our last times we got together, I was so excited. So I go to Apple Notes. I type in Cinderella. I open the note with Cinderella 0 notes inside of it. I made a note titled Cinderella, and that was all that I did. So there you go. We are mostly going to be reading this story today. And as always, it's, you know, the Cinderella one is interesting because obviously everyone knows the movie, presumably, but Cinderella is interesting for there being so many different versions of this story. So let me. I'll just put it to you all. When I say Cinderella, what are things that you remember from the story that are particularly important?

[A]

Glass slipper.

[B]

There's a glass slipper.

[A]

Fairy godmother.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Evil stepsisters.

[B]

Evil stepsisters.

[A]

Prince Charming.

[C]

She goes and she hangs out. Oh, yeah. Goes and hangs out with Prince Charming. She has to leave before she turns into a pumpkin.

[B]

Yeah, A ball.

[C]

She turns into a ball.

[B]

No, no, there is a ball that she's going to.

[C]

And then he has to go through the whole kingdom with the slipper to find out who she was.

[B]

Yeah, you got it. So there are some versions. Are you aware of some darker versions where it's like people are trying to force their feet into said slipper to. To be the match for the prince?

[A]

Well, they do that in the cartoon.

[B]

Do they cut off her foot? No, the.

[A]

The girl tries to, like, shove her foot in there. Look, it fits and then it goes for sure.

[C]

I do know that in some of the original versions that the glass is actually a mistranslation of what it originally was. Did you know this?

[B]

This is what. Do you know what it is?

[C]

It's a squirrel.

[B]

It's squirrel fur slipper is the squirrel.

[C]

Fall who would go and dance on glass. That's just asking for cut ups.

[B]

Like, but fur makes more sense.

[A]

Fur makes it.

[C]

You can dance online on stuff, but you're not pastoral.

[B]

Yeah. It's not like, graceful in the. Elegant in the way that a glass slipper would be.

[C]

I know, but a glass slipper, like, I'm serious. Like, you. You make one wrong step and you've got like, you need surgery. It's a bad idea.

[B]

I think the glass version makes sense because especially if you're like, fitting the shoe to a person, it's very elegante. Yeah. But like, if you're like, I have this thing that will prove definitively the right person who should be in the shoe. Yeah. A glass slipper makes sense for that and not squirrel fry.

[A]

I can shove my foot into a squirrel.

[C]

I'm not saying it was. Wasn't a fortunate mistranslation.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

I just know that it's a mistranslation, which is fine. It's fine. The glass is a nice addition. You know, sometimes accidents happen and they're happy. Accidents.

[B]

There's. There are.

[C]

Bob Ross would have me think so.

[B]

There are people who suggest that it is a mistranslation. However, most scholars believe the glass slipper was a deliberate piece of poetic invention on Peral's part. The guy, Charles Perrault.

[C]

So I didn't have an episode ready, and I sucked at knowing things.

[B]

Let's see if I can throw you under the bus more as we go through this episode.

[C]

Please do. That would be a fun contest to see how often we can throw AJ under the bus. I'm also eating a biscotti right now.

[B]

Which I think is. We're really not even trying today.

[C]

I know, but I'll join in.

[B]

I'll chuck my spatula. Will you put the biscotti into your coffee? Will you actually dip the biscotti into the coffee. Absolutely. I think that'll be better for the listeners because it won't crunch as much, right? It won't be crunchy. Okay. So really, you're being considerate when you think about it. I really appreciate it.

[C]

The wrapping.

[B]

That's terrible. I hate this so much. How have we been, like, eight years? This is crazy.

[C]

I'm taking it out of the wrapping. We'll be okay.

[B]

Graham is already yawning, silently eating. Awesome. All right. Cinderella or the Little Glass slipper. I've said before, we're reading from the Blue Fairy Book. Andrew Lang gets all the credit for compiling this, but really, his wife was the one compiling and I think translating in many situations. So this is from the Blue Fairy Book is the first one, and that's all I got. We'll talk more about other versions. I think at the end we'll just stick with the story itself. To begin, once there was a gentleman who married for his second wife the proudest and most haughty woman that was ever seen. She had, by a former husband two daughters of her own humor, who were indeed exactly like her in all things. He had likewise by another wife, a young daughter, but of unparalleled goodness and sweetness of temper, which she took from her mother, who was the best creature in the world. This name, Cinderella. Where does this come from? Why is she called Cinderella?

[C]

She works at the hearth, so all of the cinders get all over her. Right. She's covered in ash all the time.

[B]

Have you heard this term before? A cinder winch. Have you heard of this before? So I'll just read it. The poor girl. So she gets mistreated by her stepmom and her two stepsisters. Poor girl bore all patiently and dared not tell her father, who would have rattled her off, for his wife governed him entirely. When she had done her work, she used to go into the chimney corner and sit down among cinders and ashes, which made her commonly be called Cinderwinch. But the youngest, who was not so rude and uncivil as the eldest, called her Cinderella. However, Cinderella, notwithstanding her mean apparel, was a hundred times handsomer than her sisters, though they were always dressed very richly. So this is like a job that people had. Like, people would go through the like after fires would burn or outside of factories, like they would be looking for cinders that they could then go and take to houses. And that could be used as fuel, right? Like free or easy access to heat and fuel or whatever was not a thing. And so this is like a job that people had, and that's what she's relegated to as a part of the house. She's like, tending the fire, trying to collect these cinders, trying to collect, like, excess fuel and then obviously makes her, like, covered in soot.

[A]

But she had to go outside to.

[B]

Like, she's doing this, and she's doing this in the house mostly. But there are again, the one where you're, like, outside the factory trying to get the last little bits of coal or whatever. Yeah. So that's so far, we're kind of like, this is the story. This is probably very what you're used to. It happened that the king's son gave a ball and invited all persons of fashion to it. Our young misses were also invited, for they cut a very grand figure among the quality. They were mightily delighted at this invitation and wonderfully busy in choosing out such gowns, petticoats, head clothes as might become them. This was new trouble to Cinderella, for it was she who ironed her sister's linen, plaited their ruffles. They talked all day long of nothing but how they should be dressed. All right, boys, you all can see this picture right here. Describe to me what's happening with Cinderella.

[A]

It's like a sad girl sitting by a fire, looking mournfully into the.

[B]

Showing it to YouTube.

[A]

Mournfully into you.

[B]

Oh, like toward the.

[A]

Is she. It's hard to see. Listlessly looking kind of sad into the distance.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Yeah. It's a nice big fireplace.

[B]

This is a big fireplace. Yeah. I mean.

[C]

I mean, that soft lighting can't hurt, really, but.

[B]

Yeah. So the family is well off. Right. So they have a.

[C]

If she's any kind of cute, that's doing her some favors, I think.

[B]

Yeah. The lighting is helping. Is that good? So there's this big ball, just like you all talked about. And the stepsisters are getting ready for this. They spend a lot of time talking about what exactly they're going to wear to this. And then they get dressed, they go off to the ball, and then they leave. At last, the happy day came. They went to court and Cinderella followed them with her eyes as long as she could. And when she had lost sight of them, she fell, a crying poor girl. And then out of nowhere, her godmother, who saw her in all, who saw her all in tears, asked her what was the matter. So not a fairy, just. Well, take a look at this picture. What's that? You see wings on the back of this person?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And our lesson from before on fairies, do we Trust fairies.

[C]

Never trust a fairy.

[B]

Okay, cool. This one works out, though, right? Yeah.

[C]

This one's okay. They can help. They can hurt, but when they hurt you, they hurt good. So.

[B]

But that's. I guess we'll get. I don't totally understand the midnight limitation. Like, the fairy could have just made her have fancy clothes and a way to get there.

[C]

They're no trouble.

[B]

Yeah, it's just. I don't know if that's, like, a mischievous thing of trying to cause some trouble. So godmother asked her, what's going on? I wish I could. She was not able to speak. The rest being interrupted by her tears and sobbing. This godmother of hers, who was a fairy. So there we go. Said to her, thou wishest thou couldst go to the ball. Is it not so? Yes, cried Cinderella with a great sigh. Well, said her grandmother, be but a good girl, and I will contrive that thou shalt go. Then she took her into her chamber and said to her, run into the garden and bring me a pumpkin. So Cinderella goes to get a pumpkin, brings it back, gets turned into the carriage. The carriage is what we'd. Yeah. Okay. And then they need horses for this carriage.

[C]

Isn't it mice?

[B]

They go and get mice. So in the Disney version, these mice are, like, very friendly. They help Cinderella kind of regardless. Do they talk? They talk, and they can communicate with Cinderella here.

[C]

They sing a song.

[B]

Cinderelli.

[C]

Cinderelli. Right.

[A]

Do the dishes, do the laundry anymore?

[B]

Keep going. I was hoping for more singing, but in this one, it's, like, straight up, there's a mousetrap, and it has, like, a. It has, like, six mice in there, which is disgusting. Right. Maybe this was more common back in the day, but if I had six mice in my house just sitting in a trap, I feel like there'd be a problem. But they go. They get the box. That is the mousetrap, bring it over, turn them into horses. So that's gonna be what carry Cinderella to the ball. Cinderella says, that's gotta be a disorienting experience for a mouse to go from mouse to.

[C]

They can do all these things, and all of a sudden they can do different things, and they have different proclivities and desires. And, like, you think it's that different? It's shocking.

[B]

You think it's that different being a mouse versus a horse?

[C]

Yeah. A minute ago you wanted cheese, and now you want oats. That's gotta be a hard change.

[B]

How would you handle that?

[C]

Like, and you used to have these nice little grabby Fingers and a tail to help balance you now, your tail wispy and.

[B]

But are they mice who have the appearance of horses, or have they been turned into horses? Like, this is why you don't trust the fairy inwardly. Are they still mice?

[A]

Right, William of Ockham, that you never.

[C]

Knew in the first place?

[B]

No. You have no ideal of horse. Okay, so they get the horses, which is great. And they're like, hey, we need someone to, like, run this. We need a coachman. We need someone to drive this thing. And so where do they go to find a coachman?

[C]

I forget, was it a badger?

[B]

This is a rat. So they. Separately from the mouse trap, they have a rat trap, which, again, gross. Sitting in that rat trap. Three rats.

[C]

If I was a mouse, I would feel like I got a little bit hosed on this deal.

[B]

Oh, you think you'd rather be the cook? Really? And I love this description. So there are these three rats. The fairy made choice of one of the three, which had the largest beard. And having touched him with her wand, he was turned into a fat, jolly coachman who had the smartest whiskers eyes ever beheld.

[C]

That's kind of wonderful.

[B]

Isn't that good? I like that. Okay. And then after that, they need to have, like, her. I don't know what you call it. It's like people are going to walk with her into her footmen. Her footmen are exactly what they are called entourage. And so for her entourage, they go and find six lizards. Six lizards behind the watering pot. They're brought to the fairy, and then those are turned into her footmen. And so these are just people who just bring her to court, I guess.

[A]

So that's six. That's a lot.

[B]

You think so?

[C]

Well, they all run away when they hear a loud noise. So it's lizards.

[B]

So they're still lizards, even though they look like people.

[C]

They drop all their stuff and then they take off.

[B]

I like this. Okay, so she now has her way to get there. Well, she's missing something. What is she still missing?

[A]

A dress.

[B]

She's still missing her dress. And so the fairy godmother seems to kind of forget about this and is like, okay, you're ready to go to court. And Cinderella's hesitating and, well, you see here an equipage fit to the ball. Are you not pleased with it? So you have this coach, you have these horses, you have this guy who's going to drive you there. Cinderella says, oh, yes, cried she, but must I go thither as I am in these Nasty rags. Her godmother only just touched her with her wand. And at the same instant, her clothes were turned into cloth of gold and silver, all beset with jewels. This done, she gave her a pair of glass slippers, the prettiest in the world. Being thus decked out. I thought that was funny. Decked out. I don't know. She got up into her coach, but her godmother, above all things, commanded her not to stay till after midnight, telling her at the same time that if she stayed one moment longer, the coach would be a pumpkin again. Her horse's mice, her coachman a rat, her footman lizards. And her clothes become just as they were before. So she has to be back before.

[C]

Midnight, and the castle has to deal with a new mouse infestation they didn't have before.

[A]

Jay, you were out till 1. What of your stuff did, like, turn back into. What? What did you have and what did it get turned back into? Your party last night turned back into.

[C]

Turn back into.

[B]

Your voice is degrading. Like, that's got to great.

[C]

But that happened pretty early in the night. I feel like I. I was yelling some lyrics.

[B]

This is just from you singing along?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

I like to dance.

[B]

You're older than I am. Like, I don't understand this. I just. I'm tired listening to you talk about it. Yeah. Okay, so she. So now she has her gold and her silver dress. She has her glass slippers. She has her means of transportation. She is set to go to the ball. She goes, and as soon as she arrives, it's exactly as you expect. She shows up. There was immediately a profound silence. They left off dancing. The violin ceased to play. So attentive was everyone to contemplate the singular beauties of the unknown newcomer.

[A]

That's what you want. When you walk into a room, that's exactly what you want.

[B]

You can see the movie scene, right?

[C]

Can I also note that her dress just appearing is much more friendly to animal labor.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[A]

The movie. Did they sew it?

[C]

Oh, yeah. They all, like, sewed it together.

[A]

But they're happy. They're cool with it.

[C]

Wait, wait, wait. Fairy godmother turned it because they made.

[B]

Her, like, a red dress. Made her a dress. But then it got transformed into the.

[C]

Or did they may help her make the dress for her stepsisters?

[A]

No, no. They make a dress and then she's wearing it pretend. And then there's her wicked. Stepsisters are like. You think you're going to the ball?

[C]

They tear it Up.

[A]

And then she cries her little eyes out. And then her fairy godmother shows up and gives her an even, like, better dress. And then she goes and, like, pretty dunks on them.

[C]

Yeah. So PETA would be much more happy with this version where no animals were harmed in the making of this dress.

[B]

That's exactly right. So nothing was then heard but a confused noise of, ha. How handsome she is. The king himself, just one guy.

[C]

There's like a dead silence. One guy's like, who?

[B]

She cute.

[C]

She cute.

[B]

The king himself, old as he was, could not help watching her and telling the queen softly that it was a long time since he had seen so beautiful and lovely a creature.

[C]

Oh, what?

[B]

Isn't that incredible?

[A]

Aw, yeah, boy.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

You know that marriage is not going well when he's like, hey, honey, it's been a long time since I saw anything attractive.

[B]

What the heck? My guy. Yeah, it's tough.

[C]

She's, like, going to be a long time more before he.

[B]

So everyone's kind of looking at her, talking about her. They have no idea who she is. The king's son conducted her to the most honorable seat and afterward took her out to dance with him. She danced so very gracefully that they all more and more admired her. A fine collation was served up, whereof the young prince ate not a morsel, so instantly was he busied in gazing on her.

[C]

Well, what country are we talking about here? Is this like.

[A]

Well, it has lizards.

[C]

It's Transylvania.

[B]

It's a French story. Now, Cinderella, there are, like, thousands of versions of Cinderella which we'll get to.

[C]

Was it originally German?

[B]

German comes much later. German's about 200 years after.

[A]

So it's French.

[B]

Yes, this version is French. We can do this. So what is considered the first version of the story? I don't think it's really a Cinderella story, but it's an Egyptian story. Wait, hold on. It's. Oh, written by a Greek story. Okay, so it's first recorded by the Greek geographer Strabo. Tell me your favorite thing that Strabo ever wrote. The story of a tourist stop the straits of his book is called Geographica. And so here's the story I'm just quoting. This is from Geographica. They tell the fabulous story that when she was bathing, an eagle snatched one of her sandals from her maid and carried it to Memphis. And while the king was admiring. I'm sorry. While the king was administering justice in the open air, the eagle, when it arrived above his head, flung the sandal into his lap and the King stirred both by the beautiful shape of the sandal. No way. I'm just reading it to you. And by the strangeness of the occurrence, sent men in all directions into the country in quest of the woman who wore the sandal. And when she was found in the city of Naukritis, she was brought up to Memphis, became the wife of the king. So there you go. So a sandal. But a sandal can fit anyone. That makes no sense.

[A]

Anyway.

[B]

Okay, so that's awesome.

[C]

You know that the guys that the king sent out were like, there's no way we're fighting as heroes. That actually is so, like, let's just pick a hot one.

[B]

Just bring her back.

[A]

Yeah, just say it's your sandal.

[B]

So I don't know if I said.

[C]

I'm not going to spend all month out here.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Rhodopis is the name of this person, so. Or pretty funny. Yeah. And Rhodopis means rosy faced.

[A]

So, you know, the Greek tragedy version of that is that exactly happens. The girl whose sandal it isn't goes and marries the king, but the, like, the person whose sandal it actually is, is, like, comes to town and was like, man, you know what? Fifteen years ago, I lost my sandal. And the king's like, wait, what? And realizes he's been living this lie.

[C]

And then his current wife, beset by guilt, commits suicide.

[A]

That's right. Stabs her eyes out. And then it turns out that the, like, the person whose sandal it was was, like, his illegitimate daughter or something. Anyway, so this.

[B]

That's the Greek version, the dark, gritty reboot that we're gonna do. So this version is from 1697. And the French one is, I'm going to butcher this cindrion. C E N D R I L L I O N. It's Anglicized into Cinderella. That's where we get that Brothers Grimm will come over 100 years later, 1812. And we'll talk about it at the end. But so we have a one from a long time ago in. We're talking like 7 BC to 24 AD is that.

[A]

Whoa, you're leaving me hanging. Last time, she was dancing and the prince wasn't eating.

[B]

This is, you know, and it was.

[C]

French food, so something was wrong.

[B]

Some real tasty food sauces. So you big fan of the sauces.

[A]

This is like, your sauce, I think.

[B]

You know, what about, like, what French sauce?

[A]

The thing is, the French food is just known for having, like, elaborate sauces and broths. Just, you know, Like. Like, you know, French food's a little rich. Why? That's why it's rich, because it has all these sauces.

[B]

I think you've said that, like reductions and the making of sauce for food is what separates us from the animals. So the French are the pinnacle of civilization. And Cinderella is good. So the prince is enamored of this. Of Cinderella. Can't eat. He's just staring at her. Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

Been there.

[B]

Cool. Been stared at a lot.

[A]

No, just can't eat. Just staring at her.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's an awkward date.

[B]

Yes. And all the people are just. Again, they're watching her. But that includes her two stepsisters. And this is. I don't understand this. They don't recognize her.

[A]

Yeah, but it's. I mean, it's the glow up. Right? Like it's the makeover.

[C]

Well, she's. And it's, you know, she's lit from every angle.

[A]

No one is.

[B]

Not just the one side jump the fireplace.

[C]

You don't accept light.

[A]

Right. Like you just.

[C]

And she's covered in jewels. They're probably just looking at her dress, to be honest.

[B]

But so. But Cinderella goes even like an extra step. So it's not just. There's one way where it's like, she's beautiful. Everyone's paying attention to her. But then what does she do with that? So she went and sat down by her sisters. This is her dressed up. She goes and sits down by her sisters, showing them a thousand civilities, giving them part of the oranges and citrons which the prince had presented her with, which very much surprised them, for they did not know her. While Cinderella was thus amusing her sisters, she heard the clock strike 11¾, whereupon she immediately made a curtsy to the company, hasted away as fast as she could. So. So she's not like poking fun at her sisters. She's like giving them gifts that the prince has given her and she's then passing on. I don't know if that's bad for re. Gifting, but she's being very kind to her stepsisters, one of whom is mean to her. One of whom, again, like I said before, is kinder to her. That's the one who gives her the name Cinderella.

[A]

We may be. The movie may have spoiled this for us. The sisters may not be quite as cruel in this story as they were in the film that we all watched.

[B]

As kids in this version. Not.

[A]

But then that doesn't seem so out.

[B]

Of character for her to be kind to them.

[A]

Kind to her sisters.

[B]

It's something I appreciate. It comes back at the end of this, is that Cinderella is not just beautiful, but she is good. And she is showing grace to. What's that again? They go together. And that's. Maybe it's a theme in our fairy stories, but the union of those two things is that it's not just that Cinderella looks really pretty, therefore she gets the prince. It's that she is good to people around her, and she's rewarded for that. And I like that idea of living in a moral universe that rewards goodness. So she.

[A]

Do you think moral goodness makes you more attractive, more beautiful?

[B]

Yes. I think the opposite is clearer. That meanness makes you uglier.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And maybe it's less clear on the other side.

[C]

The best version I've ever seen of this, and I've probably talked about this on the podcast before, by the way, when I said her stepsisters were looking only at her dress, it wasn't coming about women. It was a comment about.

[B]

I didn't.

[C]

Her stepsisters. Because they like clothing.

[B]

I feel you're really coming out ahead of the critics. Just let them come after you.

[C]

Against women before. And it was just a comment about her stepsisters.

[A]

I'm glad you said something, because I'm right. You were furious.

[C]

So offended. Anyway, the best version I've ever seen of the, like, ugly equals bad and attractive equals good, which is probably not a thing we want to promote that much.

[B]

Well, it depends which direction. Right. Because it's not. You don't want to say that because you're beautiful. You are good.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But you do want to say because you're good, you're beautiful.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Yes, I like that. But it was in. So a cartoon I've watched a couple times called Adventure Time, and Finn, the main character, comes up on this. Yeah, it's pretty great. Okay.

[B]

You've watched the whole thing?

[C]

Not the entire thing, but I watched the first several seasons.

[B]

It's pretty fun. People get, like, really into it.

[C]

Yeah, it's a great show. He finds the Enchiridion.

[B]

It's a show for children, Graham. It's a children's program.

[A]

The word cartoon at the beginning of it.

[B]

Anyway, you think all cartoons are just for children. What about that? Like, I'm trying to think of a great cartoon that's for children. Yeah, but that's a comic book.

[A]

Oh, clearly not for children.

[B]

Children. I mean, Graphic novel. Is that better? Graham. Sorry. Adventure Time. Thank you.

[C]

So Finn comes up on this hooded character that's like, would you like one of these three magic rings or something like that? Or like one of the. One of these 10 he had on his fingers and it's like his hood comes off and it reveals he's a skeleton. And his, his, his dog Jake goes, whoa, whoa, Finn, that guy's ugly. You know what that means? And Finn's like, yeah, it means he's evil. And Jake's like, yeah, yeah, that's. But it also means he's desperate. See if you can get more rings. So he negotiates for more of the magic rings than he was going to take on. And of course they're probably cursed, but tough. I thought it was funny the like. Yes, he's also desperate. Was a great line.

[B]

Please don't trust skeletons. I think that's probably.

[C]

They're offering magic rings. It's just like not trusting fairies. Yeah, that's a bad idea.

[B]

Prince Darling got a magic ring, but it made him good because it hurt him every time he did a bad thing. I still think that'd be a good invention. Isn't that Pavlov? There's like a device that will shock you every time you do something you're not supposed to.

[A]

I've seen that for posture. There's like a posture collar. You can wear that. If you slouch, it gives you a little zap and you gotta sit up straight.

[B]

I think there's one of those that's called. I think it's Pavlov, but okay. So she hears the bell ringing. It's a quarter to midnight. So she gets out of there and she makes it home, everything is fine. She gets to the carriage, she gets back. And by the time she gets back to the house, everything turns back the way it was. But she makes it good for her. The girls come back home. Cinderella pretends that she's been asleep and she's woken up by them. And so she's like, oh, how long you have stayed. Cried. She gaping, rubbing her eyes and stretching herself as if she had just waked out of her sleep. So that's Cinderella pretending that she'd been asleep when the stepsisters come back, which is very funny. And then the sisters talk about the ball and this beautiful woman who showed up. How kind. She was talking again. The they gave us oranges. So they're all just gushing over this incredible time that they had.

[C]

I assume at this point oranges are rare.

[B]

I was trying to remember the story. It's one of the kids stories that we read and it's about this father who, like, he has to travel into town to sell his goods, and he sells all of his, you know, the vegetables or whatever he grows. No. And sells all the stuff that he gets. And then he, like, buys a single orange for his children and, like, brings that children that brings that orange to them. They break it up into six different pieces or whatever. And that's the first and only time they eat an orange, like, their entire childhood. Right. They're rare, they're hard to make. They only come from certain climates. If I'm remembering the story right, one of the kids loses his piece. The dad then, like, goes out to try and get another orange and almost dies. Like, man. So anyway, like, to your question of, like, is there something special about them? It's like, probably not something that everyone is eating in the way that we get produce very easily from the grocery store. Right. I wish I could remember the story. Maybe someone out there listening.

[A]

Do you like oranges?

[B]

Yes, they're great.

[C]

I love oranges.

[B]

Like, orange. Like pineapple.

[A]

Like, you like them now?

[C]

I think you need to get the. Not the two tart.

[B]

I tried.

[A]

I've tried all the kinds of oranges there are. Orange fan. I like lemons. I like limes. I like. I have a persimmon every morning.

[B]

Every morning.

[C]

What's a persimmon?

[A]

It's a fruit.

[B]

Oh, what, do you just eat it by itself? Like, what do you. Okay.

[A]

It has the texture of an apple, but it kind of tastes like a berry.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like a cherry. It's delicious.

[C]

I get into that.

[A]

We grow them, so no way.

[C]

I've never had one.

[B]

So there's all this talk about this beautiful woman at the ball and what is then planned. Then the prince plans and puts on a second ball the following night. So the same thing happens again. So the stepsisters get ready for and go to ball night number two. Cinderella gets her retinue together. They transform. They go to the ball and she dances with the prince and has a wonderful time. But she gets caught up and she forgets the time. And so she quite forgot what her godmother had recommended to her and that she at last counted the clock striking 12 when she took it to be no more than 11. So she loses track of time. She thinks it's 11. It's actually 12. She then rose up and fled as nimble as a deer. The prince followed, but could not overtake her. She left behind one of her glass slippers, which the prince took up most carefully. She got home, but quite out of breath and in her nasty Old clothes having nothing left her of all her finery, but one of the little slippers. So she keeps the slipper, loses everything else.

[A]

I have a question.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

At 12, everything turns back to what it normally was.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How come the slipper doesn't turn back into, like, cinder shoe?

[B]

Falls under different rules. So the fairy godmother gave her the slipper. Right. Whereas her clothes were turned. Gotcha.

[A]

So these are.

[B]

They're different.

[A]

Legit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So the godmother thought of the slippers.

[B]

But not the dress godmother thought of. Is that what she.

[A]

Well, she just came with. She just had glass slippers with her.

[B]

Like that fit perfectly. Yes. As opposed to the other stuff, the dress.

[A]

She has to magically make.

[B]

Magically make, yes. So the difference is some things are transformed, other things are given.

[A]

So if you are. If you have the ability to transform things into beautiful objects, you would still then go through the business of making slippers?

[B]

Apparently.

[A]

Okay, yeah. Let me call up your fairy story is not.

[B]

Doesn't hold up under scrutiny. I'm sorry. This story for children does not have all the details worked out. So she makes it home, but, like, barely. Right. So she almost transformed and looked like a normal person, but gets away thankfully. But she leaves behind a slipper. So the slipper is given. The prince gets some of his guys, says, hey, take the slipper, take it out. Have people try the shoe on. And in this version of the story, it's like the kinder version. People put their foot in the slipper, it fits or it doesn't fit, and then they move on to the next one. So the stepsisters try their feet, it doesn't work. And then they move on. Cinderella is there. And Cinderella, who saw all this, so saw the stepsisters trying to put the shoe on and knew her slipper said to them, laughing, let me see if it will not fit me. Her sisters burst out a laughing and began to banter her. The gentleman who was sent to try the slipper looked earnestly at Cinderella and finding her very handsome, said it was, but just that she should try and that he had orders to let everyone make trial. He obliged Cinderella to sit down, and putting the slipper to her foot, he found it went on very easily and fitted her as if it had been made of wax. The astonishment her two sisters were in was excessively great, but still abundantly greater when Cinderella pulled out of her pocket the other slipper and put it on her foot. Thereupon in came her godmother, who, having touched her with her wand, Cinderella's clothes made them richer and more magnificent than any of those she had before. And now her two sisters found her to be that fine, beautiful lady whom they had seen at the ball. They threw themselves at her feet to beg pardon for all the ill treatment they had made her undergo. Cinderella took them up and as she embraced them, cried that she forgave them with all her heart and desired them always to love her. She was conducted to the young prince dressed as she was. He thought her more charming than ever, and a few days after, married her. Cinderella, who was no less good than beautiful, gave her two sisters lodgings in the palace, and that very same day, matched them with two great lords of the court. And that's the end of the story. So she finds guys for her two stepsisters. There's a house for them, too. She's taking care of her family. Doesn't mention her dad or her stepmom at the very end, which is haughty stepmom. Yes. But she's kind of like, again, they have wealth and they're kind of set up so they're fine, but no mention of what happens to them at the very end. But she takes care of her stepsisters. I like that part of the story. And then everyone lives happily ever after. That's Cinderella. Okay, you all already got me to say the old version, the Greek one, that's the story, the Rhodopis one, where.

[A]

A bird steals someone's slippery sandal. Yeah.

[B]

Just, like, drops it somewhere. The. The other version that people will know is the Brothers Grimm 1. AJ you brought it up before. So the Brothers Grimm version. And as I understand it, most other versions of Cinderella don't have the fairy godmother in it. That's kind of like a unique thing to the French version. And in other versions, there's a tree that is planted where Cinderella's mother is buried. It kind of, again, there being so many different versions, sometimes Cinderella's mom is like, is it reincarnated? Is turned into an animal or her spirit's in an animal? But probably more often, there's a tree that kind of has the mother's spirit, and that when Cinderella needs something, she goes to the tree, asks the tree for it, and that's what gives her the dress, the slippers, the carriage. So it's still magical, but it's a tree, not a fairy godmother.

[A]

Does it still have the time decay?

[B]

Still has the time decay. That's still a part of it. And so, yeah, in the Brothers Grimm one, same thing. There's the ball. It gets to midnight, she runs away. They have the slipper left over. But all the people who are the stepsisters in particular, well, I should say the stepmom wants her daughters to be the queen. They want her to marry the prince and eventually become queen one day. So she's like, hey, I have an idea. It's gonna hurt a lot, but, like, think of all the stuff you're gonna get if you become princess and eventually queen. So she, like, chops off parts of their feet. Have y' all heard this version of the story? Yeah. So they chop off version. They chop off parts of the stepsisters feet to get them to fit into the slipper. And I should say it's.

[A]

Yeah, those Danes.

[B]

Well, so in the. We just read a version with glass. This version has golden shoes, so you'll get different, you know, versions of what the shoe is as well. So with her mother standing by, the older one took the shoe into her bedroom to try it on. She could not get her big toe into it, for the shoe was too small for her. Then her mother gave her a knife and said, cut off your toe. When you are queen, you will no longer have to go on foot. The girl cut off her toe, forced her foot into the shoe, swallowed the pain and went out to the prince. He took her on his horse as his bride and rode away with her. However, they had to ride past the grave. So the grave of the mother which has the tree on it. And there on the hazel tree sat two pigeons crying out, rook de goo. Rook de goo. There's blood in the shoe. The shoe is too tight. This bride is not right. You like that?

[A]

Freaking pigeons.

[C]

Pigeons meddling. Meddling in international affairs.

[A]

It's like narc pigeons.

[B]

So then he looked at her foot and he saw, literally stool pigeons and saw how blood was running from it. He turned his horse around and took the false bride home again, saying that she was not the right one and that the other sister should try on the shoe.

[C]

Get out, you bloody weirdo. That's right.

[B]

Literally, because she's bleeding from her foot. She went into her bedroom, got her toes into the shoe.

[A]

All right, but gotta wash that shoe out first, though.

[B]

Well, it doesn't say that. Just puts the foot in and the toes fit, but the heel doesn't fit. So the girl cut off a piece of her heel, forced her foot into the shoe, swallowed the pain, and went off with the prince.

[C]

I feel like that's almost worse than the toe, man, if I'm honest. Shaving off a chunkier heel, can't walk.

[B]

Took her on his horse, who rats her out this time as his bride rode away with her. When they passed the hazel tree, the two pigeons were sitting in it and they cried out, ruke de goo. RUK de goo. There's blood in the shoe. The shoe is too tight. The bride is not right. It's the exact same thing. He looked down, saw how blood was running out of the shoe, how it had stained her.

[A]

You feel like the second time the prince would have maybe done it, like not get.

[B]

We probably shouldn't have gone back at that point.

[C]

I feel like what he should have done is solid to those pigeons. Like they've earned their keep at this point. Like they need they get to be in the royal aviary.

[B]

So they go back. Cinderella's there again. We hope they wash out the shoe, put it back on. Cinderella's fits perfectly. When she stood up, the prince looked into her face and he recognized the beautiful girl who had danced with him. He cried out, she is my true bride. The stepmother and the two sisters were horrified and turned pale with anger. The prince, however, took Cinderella onto his horse and rode away with her. As they passed by the hazel tree, the two pigeons cried out, rootygoo root de goo. No blood's in the shoe. The shoe's not too tight. This bride is right. After they had cried this out, they both flew down and lit on Cinderella's shoulders, one on the right, the other on the left, and remained sitting there. When the wedding with the princes was to be held, the two false sisters came, wanting to gain favor with Cinderella and to share her good for. When the bridal couple walked into the church, the older sister walked on their right side and the younger on their left. And the pigeons pecked out one eye from each of them.

[C]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

Afterwards, as they came out of the church, the older one was on the left side and the younger one on the right side. And then the pigeons pecked out the other eye from each of them. And thus, for their wickedness and falsehood, they were punished with blindness as long as they lived. The end. That's the end of.

[A]

Danes are hardcore.

[C]

They're hardcore hard people.

[B]

So there you go. You get different versions. I am, I guess, partial to the French one.

[A]

She likes, forgives and loves her sisters.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So I'm glad that's the one that is sweet.

[C]

But I do like the idea of like some heavy metal pigeons that are pecking out eyes. Keeping justice and pecking out eyes, I guess.

[B]

They are. I think in this one, the both sisters are meaner than.

[A]

They're meaner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Coming.

[B]

Yeah, I guess so. I feel like being blind for the rest of your life and walking with a limp is pretty tough. And it seems like it should be the mom's fault, not the kids.

[A]

But, yeah, she gets to keep her eyes.

[B]

She gets to keep her eyes. All right. That is. That's Cinderella.

[A]

Geez.

[B]

Well, that was cheery. It's a good story. Check it out. I don't know. Get the Blue Fairy Book, man. What do you want me to say?

[A]

And you've read this to your children?

[B]

Yeah, it's a part of their curriculum.

[A]

What's their reaction to the story? What do they glob onto? What do they. What's their takeaways that you've noticed?

[B]

I think for a lot of these, they only hear the plot, and there's not really much more to it than, here's a fun story that happened. They are much more struck by Prince Darling, and they love to just talk about the animals that Prince Darling turns into. Not what they mean, not. He's being punished for bad acts. Though they do recognize that goodness is rewarded, badness is punished, but just. It's the plot of the story that's funny to them.

[A]

Do you feel like you should need to tell them a moral, or do you just think at this age they should just hear the plot and hear the story and have that rattling around in their little souls and then they realize this as they get older?

[B]

I think they realize as they get older. I think it's an Andrew Kern thing that you have to be really careful about moralizing all of these stories for them, because then they're not doing that thinking for themselves. And I think the stories are clear enough that they'll get there with that.

[A]

I think we do that with the Bible, that we're too quick to explain the Bible stories to kids as to what they mean or what they signify or how we should interpret it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I think there's just a lot of. A lot of goodness that comes with just like, being very familiar with a story and then sort of then later putting an analytical lens over it, but explaining things too early, I feel like. But the thing is. Why? Why? Why do you feel why? What's Andrew Kern's point as to why?

[B]

I think you need a foundation before.

[A]

You start, so you need experience of just being in a person, in the world.

[B]

I think interpretation's a higher level of thinking, and I think it's actually a Great thing. Just in your example of knowing Bible stories or in book example of just like knowing lots of stories, I think they are profitable beyond whatever moral I would give them off the bat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think whatever meaning the story will have to them is not the same I would have for them right now.

[A]

I sometimes feel that way, like in a class where I'm only going to get these kids for 36 weeks and we're going to do six books, I kind of feel like we can't just read and appreciate the story. Like, I really do feel like I need to come in and be like, give it a big interpretation of these kinds of things because I won't get them. I won't see them ever again. You know what I mean? Like, I don't get them in class in that same way ever again. And I also have a feeling like you worry that somebody else down the line is not going to do a good job in giving a reading and an interpretation of a story.

[B]

But for the books you read, is it not enough? They've read it, they've been exposed to it and I think the books will stick with them. Like I think about Sir Gawain. Cause that's one. There's a kid's. Have I told you this? There's a kid's version of Sir Gawain that my kids are really into. But they're into it because of the cutting off of heads, not because of the like.

[A]

As well they should be.

[B]

As well they should be. They are young boys. But I think that's enough because the story holds up and one day they'll get bored of cutting off heads and there's still the like being scared maybe, I don't know. But the like, I'm scared of death. And that's not a thing that you should discredit your entire legacy over.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like they'll be ready for that one day. But not at 6, 4 and 2. Right.

[A]

Anyway, I just think it's interesting. It's like, do we do too much in an English class or not enough in an English class? Or what age do you start to give those tools of interpretation versus just receiving?

[B]

Isn't most people's problem moving into interpretation too quickly?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

People think English class.

[A]

My question is like maybe is that our problem is that we move into interpretation too quickly. Do I spend too much time telling students a way of thinking about Paradise Lost than just reading the story?

[B]

Isn't most of your time spent reading the story?

[A]

There's a lot of it, yeah. A Lot of it is.

[B]

Do they. Do you tell them this is the point of the story?

[A]

I don't think so. Not. This is the point of the story. But.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, not like, I don't feel like I'm like, propagandizing them to, like, this is the way you need to interpret this.

[C]

Do any of them end up Satanists, meaning people who think Satan is the hero?

[A]

I don't think so.

[C]

Because you're usually pretty good about showing that Satan is, like.

[A]

Even though he's a lawyer. And then, yeah, he seems cool in the book, but, like, until the book goes on, he's a lot.

[B]

He's pretty pathetic until he becomes a lobster, right?

[C]

Yeah, he seems really cool. Isn't a snake.

[A]

Yeah, he becomes a snake. Everybody else in heaven, in hell become like millipedes and stuff.

[C]

Yeah. So he's really cool with that first meeting, you know, seeing all grand and regal, and then he ends up being a voyeur and then like a secondary prisoner when the guardian angel is like, go sit over there, man.

[A]

And he's like, do you know who I am?

[C]

They're like, whatever, go have a seat. Anyway, he ends up a snake.

[B]

So I think it's partially. I think the only a risk of moralizing is you flatten the story into its moral. And maybe this is also your Bible point is like, the stories are good because the story is good, not just because of some moral message you get.

[A]

Like, the example that I have that I think of is I remember being a kid reading the story of Abraham and the binding of Isaac and gonna sacrifice him. Just reading the story and being like, holy crap. Later on, having some sort of class where it's like, oh, but this is a story of talking about, like, it's a precursor for Christ or it's showing, you know, all these sorts of things. You get some kind of interpretive reading of it.

[B]

A moral.

[A]

Either moral reading or theological reading. And then you go and you read somebody like Kierkegaard. And Kierkegaard gives you like an absolutely other total other framework to think about this story. And I don't think he's wrong in the framing about that story. And the story becomes like sort of of deeper and richer. The story becomes deeper and richer the more. The less the. The. The simple moral breaks down. Yeah, like when. If you just turn something into an easy little moral, maybe that's good when you're 12 or 15, but then when you, like, reread it again at 26 and you're like, this, this. That moral doesn't isn't. Doesn't contain everything that's in this story.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then you realize that it's much more rich than that. I don't know.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Who opened?

[A]

I did. Well, this has been classical stuff. You should know. Please write a one sentence moral for.

[B]

This podcast and attach it to a five star review. You can do that.

[A]

Tell us what the moral of it AJ is.

[C]

Sexist. I will lose.

[A]

Tell us what the moral of our podcast.

[B]

If it's a five star review, it's fine. Yeah.

[A]

Conflate us into one pithy saying. You can email us at the guys classical stuff dot net. You can patronize us on Patreon where we do monthly amas in betweens. You can ask the Oracle to tell you it's irrecular things which the oracle responded. Well, the January or the January or the December Ask the Oracle is about to get posted.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And what else can you do? You can listen to back episodes in betweens. You can patronize us on Twitter where I will sometimes like your posts and happy New Year.

[B]

Happy New Year.

[C]

Happy New Year. Bye.

[B]

You're still recording, aren't you? I'm so mad. Stop the recording. It's the song we do at the end. Stop the record.