A Mushroom Cloud Over Small Town America | Adam B. | Ep. 441

Summary

Cleared Hot - Powered By BRCC

Episode: "A Mushroom Cloud Over Small Town America" | Adam B. | Ep. 441

Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Adam B.
Release Date: April 8, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode is a deeply personal dive into the aftermath of the 2023 East Palestine, Ohio train derailment and controlled chemical release—one of America’s most notorious recent domestic disasters. Host Andy Stumpf sits down with Adam B.—former Army tanker, National Guardsman, SWAT officer, and small-town cop—to chronicle Adam’s life from a troubled childhood to his frontline experience during the disaster, its long-lasting impact on him and his community, and wider implications for government accountability, community support, and personal resilience.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Adam’s Background: Trauma, Resilience, and Service

• Tumultuous Early Life (10:44 – 16:25):

  • Grew up in poverty-stricken, dangerous inner-city Cleveland with 12 siblings; subjected to neglect, abuse, and gang activity.
  • "The very moment I determined my life is not normal was when I woke up in the middle of the night... we opened the fridge, and there was very limited food... my mother came out and she beat us. I mean, it was so bad. But I remember getting beat, thinking, like, why is this happening? You know?" — Adam B. (11:32)
  • After a DEA raid, children were sent to foster care; Adam considers himself “lucky” to land with loving, stable adoptive parents in the country.

• Sense of Obligation and Patriotism (16:09 – 17:28):

  • "I owed my parents success, you know... this country set me up every way possible. I’ve stayed out of trouble... the system recognized a problem with my family... and did something about it." — Adam B.

• Military Service (Army Tanker) (01:49 – 09:14):

  • Drove and gunned M1 Abrams tanks; deployed to Korea and Iraq; conveys the intensity of combat arms culture and brotherhood. Details roles inside an Abrams and the vulnerabilities of tanks in combat.

• Transition to Law Enforcement (49:01 – 56:38):

  • Details becoming a police officer after military service, and working in corrections (“hands down the worst job”).

2. The Reality of Policing in America

• Empathy and Perspective (18:39 – 21:23):

  • Adam argues police with combat experience often have more empathy for people in trouble, despite being exposed to society’s worst.
  • Tragic, recurring calls—especially domestic violence and child trauma—contribute to law enforcement “burnout” and jadedness.

• Importance of Continuous Training (57:44 – 63:46):

  • "There’s this huge, like, lack of training and it bothers me. It bothers me so much." — Adam B. (58:28)
  • SWAT-level training, especially in firearms discipline and tactical situations, is not standard for regular patrol officers. Adam advocates for every patrolman to get, at minimum, a week of SWAT training to build life-saving skills and composure.

• Use-of-Force and Defensive Tactics (54:41 – 56:41):

  • Adam discusses the risks and controversies (“headlocks,” chokes, force application), highlighting the challenges and the nuances of use-of-force reviews.

• Jiu-Jitsu & Physical Skills (54:44 – 57:41):

  • Both agree that regular officers should be trained to a basic level (blue belt) in grappling for better control and safer outcomes.

3. 2023 East Palestine Disaster: On the Front Line

• Immediate Response & What Happened (69:45 – 80:34):

  • Adam was activated as a National Guard MP, sent to secure the perimeter and assist with evacuation.
  • The core of the crisis: a Norfolk Southern freight train derailed, threatening a catastrophic chemical explosion. Responders detonated tankers to perform a “controlled” release of vinyl chloride and other chemicals, causing a dramatic black mushroom cloud.
  • “We watch this mushroom cloud just go up in the sky of this black smoke... Imagine seeing this with your naked eyes, like in front of you. So we see this, right? 30 seconds later, we get this taste of chemicals... your eyes started to burn, your skin was burning.” — Adam B. (77:50)

• Health Impact on Responders (81:06 – 88:44):

  • Adam and his fellow Guardsmen soon experienced burning eyes and skin, headaches, memory loss, and (in Adam’s case) severe, lasting urological issues and acute appendicitis.
  • “This feeling in my stomach... headaches... minor vision problems... a week later is when it kind of just hit.” — Adam B. (84:18)

• Lack of Protective Gear & Command Decisions (74:06 – 76:02):

  • National Guard MPs were told not to wear protective masks to “avoid scaring the public,” despite being in close chemical proximity.
  • “They told us right away, don’t wear those things. You don’t want to scare people... They told us, don’t wear them. And I'm like... geez.” — Adam B. (74:06)

4. Aftermath, Accountability, and Systemic Failures

• Settlement, Fallout, and Medical Limbo (92:29 – 101:08):

  • Corporations (Norfolk Southern) provided $600 million class action and miscellaneous $20k checks to those affected, but Adam and many first responders didn’t receive compensation or were unaware of eligibility until too late.
  • “A lot of the people that were there that are still in the guard are afraid to say anything... Me, like, I’m out of the guard. I’ll talk about it.” — Adam B. (88:50)

• Medical Issues Continue, Limited Follow-Up (97:20 – 100:14):

  • Adam’s symptoms (memory loss, urinary/abdominal, cognitive) persist with minimal institutional support or specialized care.
  • “There’s things happening in me that I can’t explain... I haven’t been right since, and I wouldn’t lie to you. Like, this has truly affected me.” — Adam B. (96:42)

• Corporate Influence and Regulatory Evasion (104:16 – 105:56):

  • Andy and Adam highlight that Norfolk Southern and other rail giants lobby to roll back safety requirements, minimize liability, and curtail settlement eligibility windows—at the expense of public and responder health.
  • “Norfolk Southern has actively lobbied to weaken the bipartisan Railway Safety Act... The company significantly increases lobbying expenditures following the 2023 train derailment... Why does it have to be like that?” — Andy Stumpf (104:16)

5. Family, Mortality, and Legacy

• Impact on Parenting and Mental Health (113:26 – 115:54):

  • Past trauma with child deaths in combat and the current prospect of potentially terminal illness due to chemical exposure have deeply affected Adam’s relationship with his own children.
  • “I love the Americans, man. Best people on earth. I love being there for people, you know, and if I’m not able to be there for them, it’s going to be a tough pill to swallow.” — Adam B. (112:58)

• Recording Legacy for His Kids (117:54 – 127:49):

  • Both discuss the healing and legacy value of leaving kids memories: “Take five minutes per day, dude. Pull your phone out and tell your kids... they will cherish those things for the rest of their life.” — Andy Stumpf (127:37)

• Faith, Forgiveness, and Acceptance (119:01 – 131:40):

  • Adam shares his Christian faith as a stabilizing force. He reflects on his sense of gratitude for the “good people” who helped him along the way and addresses forgiveness relating to his biological family and personal losses, including an overdose death of a brother.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Perspective:
  “You and I have been places... Sometimes I just want to look at people and [say], call the balls and strikes. Be like, hey, we're doing amazing things here. But also over here, we're an absolute train wreck.” — Andy Stumpf (17:41)

• On East Palestine Chemical Release:
  “We were maybe 200 yards from this site... watched this mushroom cloud just go up... The only thing I can really compare it to is, did you ever put like a quarter in your mouth? Or a 9-volt battery? ... everybody at the same time was like, you know, you got this taste and your eyes started to burn, your skin was burning.” — Adam B. (77:50)

• On Corporate Accountability:
  “I would love to see a representative from that organization explain those things while in this next breath explaining to me how they actually care about safety... Explain to me these actions and show me how these two are intrinsically tied. It’s just insanity.” — Andy Stumpf (105:41)

• On Legacy & Uncertainty:
  “For legacy—to make sure that you have that or start trending in a direction where you become even more worried—man, you could live, we live in a world where you could leave... any conversation you want to with your kids and save it.” — Andy Stumpf (125:21)

---

Important Timestamps

• Adam's Childhood & Foster Care: 10:44 – 16:25
• Military Service & Tank Experiences: 01:49 – 09:14
• Police Work & Domestic Violence Calls: 18:39 – 24:25
• SWAT/Police Training Deficiencies: 57:44 – 63:46
• East Palestine Disaster (Train, Chemicals, Exposure): 69:45 – 88:44
• Health Consequences & Medical Limbo: 81:06 – 101:08
• Settlement Windows & Corporate Evasion: 92:29 – 107:24
• Family, Parenting, and Coping: 113:26 – 131:40
• Calls to Action & Whistleblowing: 132:05 – 136:06

---

Calls to Action / Guest’s Hope

• Adam urges more advocacy and direct aid for East Palestine residents and responders suffering lingering effects.
• Emphasizes the need for better training and care for law enforcement and National Guard.
• Invites other affected individuals to speak out and not let corporate or governmental red tape silence legitimate grievances.
• “They [East Palestine residents] need to be taken care of... The same people, the same type of people that took care of me when I was adopted... they need to be taken care of.” (132:05)

---

Tone & Style

• Authentic, candid, sometimes darkly humorous, but unwaveringly empathetic.
• Andy holds space for Adam's vulnerable storytelling, probes for accountability, and offers practical wisdom on legacy and coping.
• The episode blends hard-hitting disaster reporting, frontline “cop talk,” military veteran camaraderie, and raw reflections on trauma, family, and what it means to have a life well-lived despite adversity.

---

Transcript

[A]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north and south. West of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy.

[B]

West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[A]

Give it to me. I mean, it cleared hot.

[B]

Yeah, it's just a straight up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Conversation. Any particular place that you would feel more comfortable starting? Maybe open with what you were saying about how you to be very clear that perhaps you're not the PAO or spokesman for your organization.

[A]

Correct. Yeah.

[B]

Into the mic, though. Pull that.

[A]

All right. Heck yeah.

[B]

Maybe start with that.

[A]

Yeah, we're good to go.

[B]

We're already going.

[A]

All right, well, just to be clear, you know, I'm not the smoke spokesman for my agency. Anything I say, obviously it doesn't represent, you know, my agency, but, you know, I do have my own opinions on a lot of things, so. Yeah.

[B]

How big is your agency?

[A]

It's small. I work for a small agency. You know, I worked for a couple big agencies. My friend Rob, that you met him and I worked at the same time for a pretty good agency.

[B]

Where you go through the academy?

[A]

Cleveland Heights, east side of Cleveland.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which. That actual department, it's pretty big, very busy, quite a bit of crime, but it's. It's run really well. So I went there.

[B]

I pull that mic with you?

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

You don't have to leave for it. Don't apologize as you go. Just pull the thing with you. Just try to keep it about a fist away there.

[A]

You got it.

[B]

We're going to get there together.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

Or maybe we won't. It's hard to say. Yeah, it's a brave new world.

[A]

That's funny. So, yeah, that's a bigger agency. And I went to the academy there. And then I relocated down near Canton. City of Alliance.

[B]

Why'd you guys decide to move?

[A]

So I was actually single at the time. One of my. Actually my military buddies lived down there, and he asked me to, you know, move down.

[B]

You were military before or just a military buddy?

[A]

I was army. Okay.

[B]

What year were you in the army?

[A]

I was active duty was 2007 to 2000, I guess 11. I did the tanks. I was a tanker.

[B]

What part of the tank?

[A]

Abrams. So actually, when I was active, I was a driver loader.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. And I was a gunner for just a little bit, but I ended up being a gunner on. In the National Guard afterwards.

[B]

What's the best role in Abrams? Where's the best seat?

[A]

Most comfortable seat would definitely be the driver's seat.

[B]

Most. Michael, this is actually worth looking at pull up the interior of an Abrams. Have you ever seen the inside of a tank?

[A]

Oh, it's incredible. Michael. No.

[B]

Okay, standby. Your mind's about to be blown. Actually. Oh, I was going to ask you before you pulled up the image, what position do you think the driver is in? Cuz they're pretty laid back, so you're pretty familiar.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, cool.

[B]

Oh, they've let me up there before.

[A]

Oh, they're sweet.

[B]

Yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by me, Andy. Yes. Today I get to do an ad read for something for myself. And here it is. I wrote a book. It's called Drown Proof. It comes out six days from when this episode releases. And I am trying to do everything possible to make this book successful. Not because I care about any of the lists or a monetary gain that could come from that, but a lot of people put their name on this book with me, and a lot of people have supported me behind the scenes, and I want to do everything that I possibly can to make it successful. Now, I said I don't care about the lists, and those are true. The one list, though that seems to be the most prestigious is the one that I am the most unlikely to make because they feel that I do not align with them from a politics or moral perspective. And that is the New York Times. It is not a sales list. It is an editorial list. So they get to pick. And the only way that I have a chance at it is to be undeniable. How do you become undeniable for them? You sell enough copies that they can't ignore you. And when it comes to that list, hardcovers like this one right here are what they count the most of. So I would humbly ask if you have gotten anything out of this podcast since its inception, please do me a favor. Head over to Amazon or Barnes and Noble, whatever it may be, and pick up a hard copy. Every pre sale counts, plus the first week, every after the book comes out. And that is all that I can ask. I hope this book is meaningful. I hope that it's helpful, and I hope it finds its way into as many people's hands as possible. For those of you who economically can't make a purchase right now, I totally understand. Please do me a favor and help me spread the word. The goal is to be undeniable. I want to force them to put me on that list. Back to the show.

[A]

Yeah. So that. That's the driver right there.

[B]

Yeah. This is not what you would be allowed to do, Michael, just so you know, you'd be sitting on the outside.

[A]

I don't think I'd be allowed to

[B]

do any of you. No, you'd be like throwing daisies off the top. You'd be like picking flowers and shrubbery.

[A]

So. So that bar there is called the T bar actually pulls out the one onto the. His right hand directly in front of him. That like, white thing.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So it's like a motorcycle. The throttle's like, you know, like a motorcycle.

[B]

And you're looking through. Is that a glass? Hit the image on the right, Michael, See if you can make it bigger.

[A]

So that's actually the hatch.

[B]

No, not that.

[A]

So that's a tank commander on the right.

[B]

I meant on the far right of the screen.

[A]

That one.

[B]

Now go far right. See if you. Yeah, visit. Let's see.

[A]

Okay. So it looks like the hatch is actually open.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So he can like lift his seat up and kind of sit out, you know.

[B]

But if it's closed, what is he looking through?

[A]

So when it closes, there's like, it's sitting to the side that. See that little switch on the right? If you go to the right there, that little, like, handle?

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

So that like pivots and it shuts the hatch up top.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then you, you pull it down and seal it. And there's like little periscopes that you actually look through. It's. I mean, it's. It's incredible.

[B]

How about at nighttime?

[A]

What is that called? DVR the.

[B]

So you're looking at a screen.

[A]

Yeah. So you put like this little night vision screen in there. That's incredible.

[B]

I mean, what kind of gauges we

[A]

got on the left?

[B]

What are we looking at?

[A]

Tachometers, speedometers.

[B]

What is the top end speed on that speedometer?

[A]

42. Well, I think it goes to like 60, but it's like a driver's goal to max one of those things out. Ok. You're not a tank driver until you do that. But I think it's 42 is the max speed.

[B]

What? Okay, so. And your job is legit straight driving?

[A]

I was a driver. Yeah, it's a colonel's driver.

[B]

And Michael, see if you can find a schematic, like an overhead image of all the seats in an abra. Because how many people are in looking right for four people. Okay, so you get driver. Who else you got?

[A]

So the driver's, you know, by himself down there.

[B]

He's front left as you. If you're looking direct center. Okay.

[A]

Front center. He's in the drive on the turret. Or, I'm sorry, in the hull of the tank.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Then you have the turret, you got the tank commander, you have the loader, and you have the gunner.

[B]

Okay. Loader is probably what it sounds like, loading the shells.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's a. It's a job. Yeah. You got to. I mean, it's just crazy. You've never been in one of these tanks. Yeah. So.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. That little. On the center of the. The bottom screen. The bottom tank. Yep. Go down just a little bit. That seat right there is where the loader sits.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

He'll pull his rounds out. Excuse me? He'll pull his rounds out from the right. Put him in the main gun.

[B]

What does he do with the brass? Isn't there. It's a large shell casing, isn't it?

[A]

Oh, yeah, It's a. About 120. So they'll actually fall onto, like, the floor, and you kind of just sweep them over.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then you got the tank commander above him. So go up.

[B]

For the people who are audio only, enjoy this experience.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Bear with us here.

[B]

Yeah, sorry, you should probably switch over now, because this is awesome. We're learning about Abrams tanks.

[A]

Oh, they're incredible. So that's the. The tank commander there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

He can do pretty much everything the gunner can do.

[B]

Who's probably right in front of him. I'm assuming that's.

[A]

Yeah, the gunner's right in front of him. I mean, that's like. That's the best job in the tank

[B]

when you fire it. Is it a button or is it a trigger?

[A]

So they're called Cadillacs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it's. It's like a. I guess if it's kind of like an aircraft, you got like your little.

[B]

That's a sabo round. That's what I'm talking about.

[A]

Save around. Yeah. It's kind of like an airplane. How you do, Michael?

[B]

There it is right up there. Go to the upper left.

[A]

Yeah. That's the gun. And that's a gunner right there.

[B]

One more. God damn it, Michael. Don't make me come over there.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Look at the interesting screen. This would be your position, Michael, because it has screens.

[A]

Yes. Holy cow.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I mean, the technology in these things, I mean, it's just. It's incredible.

[B]

One of the most fascinating things to me about this is the speed with which they can hold the turrets. Like, the ability for the thing.

[A]

Like, you can. I mean, you can keep that turret. I mean, spot on. As you are hauling, moving around, jumping, doing anything you want. 3,000 meters away. You can keep that right on a target or, you know, 300 yard or whatever, you know, whatever distance.

[B]

But if it's a non tank on tank engagement, what are you guys really worried about in there? Is there any. I mean, I would assume they need a large ied, a landmine.

[A]

One of my, my gunners when I first joined active, he, He. He got blown up on deployment. The actual turret of the tank can separate. And he had some, he had some serious problems with this. You know, when you get blown up and actually separate, is that by design

[B]

to maybe release overpressure or is that

[A]

just the way it goes? Maybe the week. Honestly. Yeah. But I know part of history, you know, it's separated. Some of the turds completely separated. Oh yeah. Killed the whole crew, all sorts.

[B]

Can you even fathom the size of the charge it would require to do that?

[A]

Unbelievable. Yeah.

[B]

I mean you're familiar with MRAPs, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

I've have seen what is left over and I. The estimate on the buried HME, which is homemade explosive in Afghanistan, was somewhere near 1500 pounds.

[A]

It's insane.

[B]

It flipped an MRAP hundreds of feet into the air.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

And inverted the V hole. I mean you can. Instantly fatal, but unbelievable. Yeah, I mean it's. And that thing. And that's with the V hole, which, I mean there's ways to overmatch that easily. These are flat Caymans, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

These are flat bottoms, right?

[A]

Yeah, totally flat.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Which is overmatch on that. It's like a humvee. It's like £4 to overmatch a Humvee.

[A]

Oh, it's awful. It's. They're actually almost the opposite of a V hole because, you know, they're flat, but then on the sides they kind of go in, you know, and it's. Yeah, yeah. That's the scariest thing is getting blown up in one of those.

[B]

Other than that though, is there anything out there that you guys are really worried about? If you got all the hatches closed, like small arms fire is not going to.

[A]

No, that does nothing. Yeah.

[B]

How about rp, like an rpg?

[A]

Rpg? Yeah, it can. Okay. If it gets between the tank and the. Or, I'm sorry, the. The hole and the turret.

[B]

So you.

[A]

There's a little gap there.

[B]

Steven Seagal sniping you with an.

[A]

Pretty much, yeah.

[B]

Cuz in my experience those things don't fly very straight. If one of those actually hits there. We're going to put that in the luck category, not the skill category.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, other than that, I guess other tanks, I mean, that's really it. But I mean, who are we fighting that has other Yanks right now?

[B]

Okay, did you. When you joined the army, where were you at? Were you living when you joined?

[A]

West of Cleveland. And we'll circle back to how this all ended up, but west of Cleveland, probably 50 miles country town. So I actually grew up in the city of Cleveland, you know, in this really horrible situation. You know, I have 12 siblings. House got raided by the DEA. Oh, it's a crazy story. We all got put in foster care.

[B]

And I went from, like, these are blood siblings. Okay.

[A]

All the same mother. Yeah, 12. 12 siblings. Probably, what, 20 dads. No, I'm just kidding.

[B]

A lot more dads and maybe 20 participants.

[A]

But yeah. Yeah, no kidding. But, yeah.

[B]

So how was that growing up in that situation?

[A]

I mean, it was bad.

[B]

Did you know it was as bad as it was when you were in it? Or do you. You have a better optic on it now?

[A]

I think the. The very moment that I determined my life is not normal was when I woke up in the middle of the night. I was really hungry. My sister Aaron. I'm sorry. My sister Ashley, my brother Aaron. We all three woke up and we were really hungry.

[B]

Where do you fall in that?

[A]

12, right about in the middle. Okay. We lost one, unfortunately. But we woke up really hungry, and we're like, hey, let's go get some food. And we. We opened the fridge, and there was very limited food in there, but, you know, we took some food out and my mother came out and she. I mean, she beat us. I mean, it was so bad. But I remember getting beat, thinking, like, why is this happening? You know? Yeah, all I want, you know, I want some food.

[B]

Do you remember how old you were at the time?

[A]

At that time, I was probably four, because that was just before, you know,

[B]

yeah, hungry kids at four are gonna go try to find food.

[A]

And I. I remember things like, you know, gang members being in the house. You know, the things I remember, like my sisters, you know, these people. I mean, the most resilient people I ever met in my life. I would remember things like, like, why is my sister leaving? You know what I mean? Things like that. My brother. Like, why is my brother always next door? Where did he get this Nintendo from? You know, stuff like that. And we can all obviously, you know, connect the dots, draw our own conclusions here. But, you know, so I went from that. And then I remember my brother Aaron. He's. He's also a veteran He's. He is hands down, my favorite person, you know, other than my. My wife and my kids. He. You know, he went to Afghanistan, did all that. And I remember he. We were in the plane in the front yard one time, and a car was. A drunk driver was driving up, and my other brother, the one that passed away, grabbed him by his arm, pulled him away from this tree just as this drunk driver hit him, but it still pinned him between the tree and the car. But the way, you know, he pulled him out, it was. Apparently, if he didn't do that, my brother was, you know, would have died. He pulled him out just enough to break a leg.

[B]

Injured but not pinned.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Well, he was pinned, but he wasn't injured. But, you know, pinned by the leg

[B]

instead of the torso.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. So that happened. And, you know, he got a bunch. My mother got a bunch of money for that, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and she ended up spending it all. So after that, that incident, you know, the DEA came in and they closed the house down, put us all in foster care and, like, individually, or did they? So this is another reason I'm probably the luckiest person on earth. I really, truly count my blessings. Just two towns away, we went from the city to the country, like a bunch of land. My parents took about half of us, mostly the boys, and then they took the other half. They were cousins. So just a town away, you know, coming from Cleveland, you know, 50. About 50, 40 miles west, you know, of all the things that could have happened, you know, us getting all sent to separate homes and this and that, you know, we were a town away. Not only that, but it was the country. Dirt bikes, four wheelers. I mean, I just. I still can't believe it sometimes, how lucky I got. But anyway, like a lot of people in the foster care system, the. You know, I should go back a little bit. I did foster care for about four years, and we were kind of all in the same area, but once we got adopted four years later.

[B]

By the same family?

[A]

Yeah, by the same family. That's when I really, you know. You know. But anyway, a lot of people in those situations, you know, like, who adopt children and stuff, you know, we all know what a sick world it is, what sick world it can be. A lot of people, you know, they might have bad intentions, but the people that adopted me, Andy, I mean, the best people I ever met in my life. I mean, they are such good people. So my mom and dad, you know, and they just came in there with love. Jesus. You Know, took us to church and I just. Yeah.

[B]

How do you view, like, what kind of impact did that upbringing have on you as you were getting older? I mean, I know indirectly people who could describe that type of situation. And let's say there were 12, just to use the number of siblings that you have, and half of them were broken and destroyed by that situation. Maybe one or two flourished. But, yeah, lifelong. I don't know the right word. I would just. Other than impact. Lifelong impact given the situation that they grew up in.

[A]

Yeah. So it affected, like, my sisters and my. My brothers. I guess it kind of all affected the same way. But I. I mean, I. I owed my parents. Like, I owed them success, you know, I.

[B]

Do you feel that way because of what they were able to provide for you in contrast to where you came from?

[A]

100. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, they're such good people and, like, I owed them success. Like, you know, I want to talk about how this ties into my patriotism because, like, you know, you have people out there complaining about this country, this and that. You know, poor me, I'm living, you know, on. Off the government, whatever. Like, this country set me up every way possible. Like, I've stayed out of trouble, you know, these. The system recognized a problem with my family, you know, when we were young, and they did something about it, you know, put me in this incredible situation that, you know, my. Out in the country, like, anything a kid could want, you know, it just. It doesn't happen.

[B]

Um, there are more stories on the other side of that coin than there are, I think, than what you're describing.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. And, like, I just. Especially lately, like, I just. I Sometimes I stop and I just think about how lucky I got in life.

[B]

Yeah, well, you can feel lucky and still complain about the things that suck.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

I think. And that doesn't bother me. What starts to irritate me a little bit and then I kind of just let go of it is when people refuse to acknowledge anything that is actually going well or like you said. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, this country has a history of fill in the blank. And so therefore, everything about it sucks. It's like, yeah, everything. Everything sucks.

[A]

You and I've been places. Yeah. Sometimes I just want to look at people.

[B]

Yeah. Just call the balls and strikes. Be like, hey, we're doing amazing things here. But also over here, we're an absolute train wreck. We should probably dedicate some time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the things in my family that kind of plagues us, I would say more with My. My wife's family is, you know, obviously politics, but sometimes, you know, I get frustrated because I think, like, where I came from, you know, where I've been in the world. And like, I see people out there who are really struggling, like, really. I know that feeling. And somebody might complain because, I don't know, they got. They're late to work or, you know, this or that, or their coffee's not hot enough. And sometimes I just want to stop and just, you know, go off the deep end on them. But I don't know, I.

[B]

Do you think it helps you as a police officer in. With the context and empathy that you probably can have when you see other people that are just. Yeah, there's. I have run into. I'm very good friends with a lot of law enforcement officers, and you'd be hard pressed to find somebody more supportive than law enforcement, than myself. But I'm also honest about some of the patterns that I see. And one of the patterns that I see is that because of the. We'll call them population groups that officers often deal with. Deal with, and the nature of repeat customers.

[A]

I'm not here to sugarcoat things. Yeah.

[B]

But absolutely what they end up, it seems like, and this is an outside perspective, I've never walked a foot in anybody else's shoes, but it jades them towards almost all of society because of the amount of time that they spend in that. And that also, I think, can be very dangerous as well.

[A]

Absolutely. My friend Rob that you met. We met on the SWAT team together, and he was a Marine, and him and I have a lot of the same opinions on these things. I. I noticed that cops that are veterans, especially combat vets, you know, in the combat arms mostly, you know, who were really, you know, in the. In the true military, you know. Well, I shouldn't say that, but I

[B]

was gonna say, you are gonna get annihilated at the comments if we don't.

[A]

Not the true military. The true. The true front lines. You know what I mean? The ground pounders, the ones out there, you know, kicking indoors and, you know, not sitting in a fob, getting, you know, fat. That's what I'm trying to say.

[B]

But anyway, but let's be clear. A lot of those people who don't ever leave the fob, we require them to help us to prepare to do our job. Right.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Everybody has a role. All service is honorable. But it's different.

[A]

They all signed up. It is very different. And there's a different mentality that goes with it. Yeah. But so him and I were talking about, like, those kind of cops that you see come from those, know, aspects of the military are. I mean, it's noticeable that the level of respect they have for people, for Americans. I mean, what better job is it than, you know, being there for these people, for Americans, people you love. People that were so good to me, you know, took me out of this. Horrible situations. Like what? I can't think of a better job than showing up for them, you know, at their worst. I mean, I had a, you know, I had a murder not too long ago that I was on, and there were three kids there, and I have three kids, you know, and horrible domestic violence situation. And the guy ended up taking her life. Young girl.

[B]

I mean, why are all the DV stories so horrible? As soon as you said that, I knew it was going to be horrible. Again, based off the relationship I have with the local law enforcement, TVs are the worst. They all say the same thing.

[A]

This was probably my top five worst calls I've been on. I mean, it definitely is. He did this. And there were three kids there. There are three kids.

[B]

Yeah. Before you go any further, let me ask you this. Was it the first instance?

[A]

No, and it never is.

[B]

That's why I asked, because God damn it, it's crazy. The repetitive themes in that. Or they go to a DV call, and this is obviously broad, not specific.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go to a DV call, somebody gets the bracelets. Then somebody doesn't want to press charges, and then two weeks later, the same thing happens again.

[A]

Speaking my language. Yeah, that would all do well.

[B]

Yeah, but. And, and so here's what my friends will say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It never de escalates. Whatever happened the last time becomes the new foundation for what is going to be the floor.

[A]

You sure you weren't a cop before, dude?

[B]

Well, I just listened to them.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy because I. I try to.

[B]

I'm fascinated to try to understand this. And apparently this is. There's a lot of tie over when it comes to substance abuse. Like if people, let's say they were deeply into alcoholism, if they relapse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They almost like it's where they were is the starting point. So it's like it edges up and edges up, but it never goes back the other direction.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And these are things I. If I'll go on a domestic violence call, I will say, like, listen, the majority of time, it's the man, you know? Yeah, let's call, you know, strike, strikes. It's usually the man. You know, being the abuser and whatnot. And I'll. I'll pull the lady aside and I'll say, listen, it's. It's going to get worse if you don't stop this now. Do what you got to do. It's going to get worse nine times out of 10, and they usually brush it off, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't show up for court or, you know, don't just. It's bad. But that. That one I had, that murder ended up. He called and said he accidentally shot his wife. And so I was under the impression that I was first on the scene myself, actually in a deputy. So I had thought he accidentally did this. So I was a little empathetic, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Looking back more than I should have been.

[B]

I wonder if he's ever heard of the five basic principles to handling a firearm. Michael and I were. What was that two Fridays ago?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A guy was showing his daughter.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Weapon. And I'm like, I don't.

[A]

There's a little more to that one.

[B]

Well, also, again, if you follow just one of those five rules, it would probably be okay.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Accidentally shot my wife.

[A]

Isn't that crazy? Yeah. So he came out and, you know, ran out of the house, and, you know, I accidentally shot her this and that.

[B]

Oh, so he's playing it up.

[A]

Yeah. And I actually believe the guy for a minute. You know, the call came out. It was an accident. Pretty quickly, though, I realized, you know, it was something else. Anyway, I get in there, and she's laying on the floor, and, you know, she's dead. He actually put the pistol in her mouth and executed her. Yeah. In their living room.

[B]

Which, for people who have never been around, that. That has a signature.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shall we say. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So. Yeah. That. There were three kids there, and I had to walk these kids out, you know.

[B]

Jeez.

[A]

And their mother's laying there and dead on the floor, you know, and what

[B]

do you do there? Do you try to make sure that they don't get, like, line of sight.

[A]

Yeah. That. We made it pretty clear some of the, you know, we had other units show up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, kind of block it and protect them.

[B]

To the bed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they're kind of asking about it, you know, and maybe kind of obviously brush it off there, make it less than it is, but. Yeah. And, you know, you walk him out, and then he actually just got sentenced. He went to prison. He's. He's maxed out. He's never getting out. But now these Three kids. I mean, they don't have a mother or a father, you know, and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something as simple as, like, just walking away, cooling down, you know, figuring things out tomorrow, like, you know, from the female aspect. Like, let's just cool down. Let me separate, you know, I'll think more about this tomorrow. My plan. And there is help out there. I mean, it's just. It could have prevented all that.

[B]

Hurt people. Hurt people, man.

[A]

So many people were affected by that. You know, some of these officers, you know, that.

[B]

You know, I don't see how you could do that job and not have a little bit of a jaded perspective, but I think it has to be reminded constantly. Like, hey, just so you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not everybody is like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's the same thing as being overseas. You cannot. You cannot think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That every. Like, you see a kid on a bike. Oh, is he bringing a bomb to blow? You cannot. To a degree. I guess it's in the back of your mind, but you will absolutely burn yourself out.

[A]

You will. It happens. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So that kind of, like, I wanted to talk about this, too. I think things like that, you know, you see things like that, and we've seen our share of, you know, death and whatnot in the military, but being here in America, it's like. It's almost. It's. It's. I think it's harder. I think the things you see overseas are worse. Like, Sergeant McGee, Frizzell and I, when we deployed together, he. He got killed. That. I mean, that. Go into a service for one of your brothers, that stuff, that's. That was one of the worst things I ever had to do. Not even just the fact that he got killed is. That fact itself's awful, but just being there with everybody that, like, you know, you're burying this guy or not burying him, but, you know, having this memorial for him, that was awful. So that kind of stuff, you see worse things overseas as far as, you know, trauma and whatnot and violence.

[B]

Yeah. But you get to come home from those.

[A]

You get to come home, you guys.

[B]

And again, this is from talking to my. To my friends. They don't even recognize sometimes that they're doing this.

[A]

We'll be hanging out and.

[B]

Yeah, what are we gonna go. Go up to Whitefish to go snowboarding? Like, oh, yeah, I worked a hit run over there. Oh. I. You know, and it's. It's. I understand the. It would come off as callous to somebody who didn't understand why they describe it the way that they do, but I also understand it's a coping mechanism. They'll say things like, oh, yeah, I had to scrape a kid off the sidewalk. And they don't realize what they're saying.

[A]

No.

[B]

And it's like it. If they're around me, like, okay, like, cool. I. I understand what's going on. You throw somebody else in the vehicle who didn't understand their background or didn't have context, they're going to look at

[A]

you like you're a completely nuts.

[B]

Like, do you collect human heads? Do you wear a belt made out of skin?

[A]

John, take it ease. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That and like where I work now, I work at a smaller agency now. And I ended up moving back, you know, towards Cleveland. After my divorce. I applied for my hometown and they hired me right away. You know, it's the first place I applied and they hired me. So I work in my hometown. And I went to a call last year, a suicide guy took a shotgun to his head. I pull up to the driveway and the guy that pulls up immediately says, you're so and so's brother. I don't want to say my sister's name, but he was like, you're so and so's brother. I'm thinking I couldn't remember who this guy was. And turns out I knew the family, I knew the guy that did it. So we go into the shed where his head is no longer ahead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's, you know, brain matter everywhere.

[B]

It's a lot, man.

[A]

Yeah. But it's also really cool working in your hometown when you do something cool, you know, and, I don't know, you take care of somebody and, you know, they know who you are and you know, they can to thank you, or not necessarily thank you, but they can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can feel the appreciation more. Not that I'm looking for it.

[B]

You can see the impact too.

[A]

You can see the impact. Yeah.

[B]

Totally unrelated question, but you gotta be thinking about this. Did you have any hesitation getting married based off of your upbringing? Like, did you have a. Obviously you weren't living with or largely raised by your biological mother or father, so you actually did have a good example from your parents, to use your terms. But did the memory of your biological mother in that situation, did that impact at all, your willingness to enter into a marriage and have kids of your own?

[A]

Probably more than I probably like to admit. But I don't know, I just, I saw what, like what, what a mother and a father shouldn't be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I saw what they should be. So I think like, again, like, my parents that adopted me, like, just showed me like the complete opposite. They showed me, like, what real just love is, you know, and somebody didn't see for the first eight years of my life, you know, and with good intentions, like, these are good country people, like, lots of land. And like I said, I lived in the ghetto of Cleveland, going to like this huge chunk of land with muscle cars, you know, trucks, dirt bikes, go karts. I. I can't even tell you how lucky I got in life. And that's just one little portion of my life that I, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the reason I love my country so much. You know, everything I've done, I've stayed out of trouble for the most part. Didn't get caught, but. I'm kidding.

[B]

That's how it goes as a young man.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

My kids are not as good at as it.

[A]

As I was at not getting caught. Yeah.

[B]

Let's just say I'm really lucky that I have good relationships with.

[A]

Yeah. Law enforcement. Yeah.

[B]

Seriously.

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

Every once in a while I'll get a little heads up.

[A]

Yeah, no kidding. Every once in a while I'll give the heads up. No, I'm kidding.

[B]

But I tell you what, I'm sure my parents got heads up too. Like, that's kind of the deal. You got to pay that forward a little bit.

[A]

Absolutely. And I do that. Very conscious about that. Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, not everybody deserves a heads up. Like, there's things where it's like, this isn't a heads up issue. But also, not everybody needs to get like, manhandled and roughed up, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Like I said, coming from the military, I have, I have an appreciation for America and, you know, where the patriotism

[B]

come from, you think?

[A]

I think it started just being out in the country growing up, like dirt bikes and all that. I think my father letting me drive his old pickup truck in the yard. It was a stick shift. I was probably 12 years old. Like, this is really cool. A lot of kids don't get to do this, you know, So I think that's probably what sparked it, you know, all that. But when I joined the army, like when I was 18 and you know, I joined the tank corps and that's, that's a, that's a rugged life. I mean, it's.

[B]

Is that what you joined the army to do? Because this is tanks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Post 9 11. How'd you land on the army and tanks? And then obviously the M1 is.

[A]

Well, dude, a lot of firepower.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I actually went in and I didn't know there were jobs. Like, I didn't know you could do this. I thought you were all going to be infantry. Right. So I went in there and my sister had already enlisted. She was, I think, at the 82nd at this time. Yeah, she was. She finished basic, the 82nd. And she's like, don't go infantry. And I was like, oh, okay, whatever. And then my dad came, you know, the recruiter, he's like, why don't you try tanks or something? So I was like, yeah, I'll do tanks. They given out bonuses. 2007, the height of the war. I was like, yeah, I'll do tanks. They seem pretty cool, you know. So I signed up. I think I shipped out two weeks later. Damn, that fast track. Yeah. After I left that recruiter's office, when I signed those papers, I think I had my first panic attack in life realizing. Realizing what I'd done. Like, crap. Yeah, I really just signed up. I'm going to go to war, you know, I'm going to. Who knows what's going to happen? So anyway, I did that. And then just seeing how cool these tanks were, I just. Man, I fell in love with these things. It was. It was tough, though. I went to Korea and then I went to, you know, I went to Iraq too. And. Which is funny because when I deployed, I was sent to the infantry company as an infantry platoon. So that's where I met Mike, my one buddy, actually. I met him in Korea, and we kind of went everywhere together.

[B]

So what does that mean, you guys, as the tank supported the infantry company?

[A]

Yeah, they were doing this thing where, like, they weren't really using tanks anym. Yeah, it wasn't quite, you know, busy enough, but so they sent all the tankers to the infantry companies. So there was a name for tanks without the tanks.

[B]

That's not nearly as fun.

[A]

It wasn't nearly as fun, no.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, I think we used the tanks twice overseas and we didn't get to firearm.

[B]

We had a few instances where we had tanks on four corners.

[A]

Oh. And.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty awesome.

[A]

Yeah. Were they tanks or were they Bradley's?

[B]

Both.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah, I have definitely run past an M1 in Iraq. Thanks.

[A]

Oh, it's a sight to see. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just incredible.

[B]

You want to talk external blocking positions outward? I'm like, I actually think we're pretty good externally.

[A]

Oh, dude, those tanks are just. They're incredible. Yeah. And the technology and those things. I mean, these Chinese tanks, these Russian tanks, all that. I mean, they couldn't shake a stick of the things. These American tankers are so motivated. I mean, so, like, I would say, like, let me give you an example. Like, your average SWAT guy, like, his goal. Well, not his goal, but his. I guess his fantasy, maybe. I don't know, is like, saving a hostage or, you know, an active shooter taking him out. Like, that's like, yeah, this was SWAT guys. That's what train trained for, you know, want to save some lives, you know, in a cool tactical way. Whereas, like, a doctor might want to work on a, you know, transplant. Save a life that way. Tankers, like, they want to destroy everything. Like, I. My platoon sergeant, when he was in the invasion, I mean, the stories he would tell me, like, you did what to a. What? Like, yeah, main gun round to, like, to who? To what?

[B]

You know, I have seen a main gun round engage a single individual.

[A]

That was probably my platoon sergeant back in the day.

[B]

It was. Technically, it was in a building, so they could probably get away with saying they were engaging a fighting position.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if there was more than one person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In that fighting position.

[A]

I don't know if I was. When I got there, I was like, I don't know if I'm cut out for this. Not that I'm afraid to do my job, but, yeah. You know, I just was like, wow, I. I want to go to heaven. Like, I was raised as a Christian. Christian. I don't want to get too late. I don't want to be on. I don't take anybody out with a main gun around, is what I'm trying to say, you know. But anyway, so they were. I mean, they just. Everything was tanks, just lots of firepower, and you don't want to cross a tank or, you know, in combat. I mean, they will. Yeah. It's not going to be pretty.

[B]

Were you thinking at all about law enforcement while you were in, or is that something?

[A]

I was not.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So after I Left active in 2011, I was. I was pretty messed up. I had some. A couple bad experiences over there or just in my four years of acting. Yeah.

[B]

You talking about combat experiences?

[A]

I mean, I had a few, you know. Yeah, I. I wasn't. Obviously, it wasn't, you know, a Ramadi or a Fallujah or anything when I was there.

[B]

Get into the competitive suffering.

[A]

Yeah. And you see other people.

[B]

I hear, guys, yeah, it wasn't as bad as what you did. I'm like, okay, first off, everybody's different, and everybody has A different. I have been in situations. Call it six people, for ease of math.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And one egg is completely scrambled. And on the other side of that, one guy's like, what's. What are you talking about? That was like a Tuesday. There should never be competitive suffering.

[A]

Yeah, I guess I. I've been told that before. Yeah, I know sometimes you can't help, you know, certain things. And I. I was 18, and I just. I wasn't ready for some of the things I saw. Like, I used, you know, rocket attacks.

[B]

What was the stuff that stuck with you the most, do you think? The ones that had the. The largest impact on you?

[A]

So Sergeant McGee getting killed, it's a

[B]

loss of a close friend. Were you there in that environment or just somebody that.

[A]

He was actually my friend Mike that you met. He was. They were at the same base, and I was. We were at a little patrol base with just our infantry company at the time. So it happened at a base, you know, not too far away. But going to that memorial service, a couple other things that stuck out to me, like my platoon sergeant and my platoon leader at the time. And this is when I realized, like, this made me very, very patriotic when the first time we took rockets, we were in MRAPs, and we were pulling into that to the base where McGee had gotten killed. And we're pulling in there, and we're just dismounting. I think we're ready, going ready. Getting ready to go get some food or something. We started taking rounds, you know, the 107s or whatever they are. Just indirect fire. Yeah, indirect. And serum with chance. It's his name, Lieutenant Romo. As these rounds are coming in, they're standing outside as these rounds are coming in, yelling at us to get back in our trucks. Standing there, I mean, right there in harm's way, these things are hitting. They waited for every single troop to be secured before they got in their vehicles. That was the moment where I was like, this is. I mean, I get goosebumps thinking about it now. And, yeah, again, good people looking out for me in my life. So, yeah, that happened. You know, you would roll into bases and see trucks, you know, blown to smithereens. And, yeah, we did some patrols with an ODA team, which is, you know, the Green Berets for those that don't know. And they would do things that were just. I mean, one of them got blown up, and I watched this entire crew walk out of their Humvee like nothing happened. Just. I mean, I couldn't. Things like that. It's like, holy. The US Military, like, this is incredible things we're capable of.

[B]

Well, the reason I asked you, it's interesting. I've spent a lot of time talking with psychiatrists and psychologists about the human reaction to stress. And first off, there is no right or wrong answer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So. And there is. There's no reason to compare or even worry about why one thing bothers somebody or it doesn't bother somebody else. But it's interesting. It almost seems sometimes the stuff that is the most damaging, broadly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are the things that are totally out of your control. Meaning your watch. It's not even necessarily directly happening to you, but you're watching something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you have no control over it, so therefore you can't escape it.

[A]

That's a big problem with cops. It's like not having that control over certain things.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you guys don't necessarily get to choose when you encounter violence.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And when you talk. When I talk to these people who are experts in this, not that it makes it better, but it seems to be that there is a lower incidence of the trauma affecting long term when you are the one who chooses and initiates it. They call it the locus of control. It's where that locus of control sits that it can have such an amazing impact. And I don't want to say positively because it's not what I mean, but it's less sticky if you are the one who are deciding. If you are deciding and in control. Like I look at my old job, high 90th percentile of the time I got to choose when violence was initiated or when I was exposed to it. The people that I would look at from a distance, specifically on my last deployment in 2010, I would watch these guys and their job was to mine Sweep Route 1. And this is the same route where that 15, 1700 pounds of HME and they're just sitting in the back of vehicles with no control over anything.

[A]

Oh, it's enough.

[B]

And I would watch them and just look at them. And of course I can't speak for them, but I can say from my own eyes they looked miserable.

[A]

Oh, just think about, I mean, how that affected them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For life. I mean, so.

[B]

But again, the locus of control, it's crazy.

[A]

I mean, I respond to calls and like, like I said, my agency isn't. I work in a really weird agency because it's a smaller town, but we're between, like our neighboring. Neighboring agencies are like two very busy cities with gangs and this and that and a couple, you know, the Calls I've been on that are significant, you know, a couple of the more significant ones, or mutual aid. So I would get called by another agency to go here, do this, you know, and like, I don't know, I just. I'll be honest with you, I lost. Lost my track where I was going with that.

[B]

We were just talking about exposure to essentially trauma.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

Control of it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's perfect because some of that trauma been exposed to, you know, the. Yeah. I tend to forget what I'm talking about sometimes. But anyway, yeah, just, you know, especially working. Working where you grew up, you see a lot of people that, you know and this and that. And I don't know, it's different when it's here because these are your people that. These are the people that saved my life on so many different occasions. Seeing them suffer and seeing, you know.

[B]

So how'd you land on it as you were getting out?

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's right. So I actually joined after active duty. I joined the reserves and.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

As an mp, you know, horrible career move.

[B]

It's a military police.

[A]

Horrible.

[B]

So you're already. You already had a badge and gun. You're good. You don't have to go to the academy. Right. You just walk off. You're like. I don't know if, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Already certified.

[B]

I'm an MP now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Is there an academy for the mp?

[A]

Yeah, it's like a. The one I went to was like maybe a month long or something. It was actually pretty high speed. It was cool. Some of the things we have to the vehicle, you know, driving and all that. But so I joined like the DMP Corps, as, you know, in the reserves of the National Guard. And that was like, for anybody listening, you know, or watching this, I don't remember. I don't recommend going active duty, serving with the infantry in the tank or to like a reserve MP unit because it's just you're going to be disgruntled. I mean, it's.

[B]

Well, how often you working too, Right? Is it that. Is that like the one week and a month?

[A]

Yeah, the one week in a month, yeah.

[B]

So what were you doing in the off time?

[A]

What was I doing at the time?

[B]

Because, I mean, obviously you didn't get your, you know, pension or anything like that, so.

[A]

Yeah, right. Well, I was working for the VA at one point. Really?

[B]

What were you doing for that?

[A]

Yeah, I did. I worked in the mental health counseling clinic.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I was just like a little, you know, secretary, if you will.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it was federal, so it was cool. So I did that. So I actually did 17 years total in the military. The four active and then the. The rest, you know, reserves, a guard. I did 17 and I got out to politics. I mean, again, coming from the active duty combat arms to reserve, National Guard, mp, the levels of discipline, you know, that I don't know, you know what it is?

[B]

I mean, people take it less seriously.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It becomes a weekend, a month, two weeks, a year. And having said that, I was never a reservist. I'm talking about, again, only what I see, which is a broad description. I'm not negatively talking about anybody, but I also know a bunch of people who are in the National Guard and I'm repeating what they have told me.

[A]

Yeah, it's the National Guard. I would compare to something like the Navy. No, I'm just kidding. It's.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

I'm just teasing. No, it's, it's.

[B]

The Navy is unique. Just because you didn't have 13 buttons on your pants, you don't have to be jealous, which is a bastard. When you're hammering, you got to take a piss.

[A]

Yeah, no kidding. Well, the duty belt too. And you got to handle your business and you get a call and you got to run out there with your. No, I'm kidding. But anyway, see, I did that and it was just obviously I'm a, you know, I'm a male that, you know, I like guns and I like all that. And a little more on the conservative side, socially liberal, I would say.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Kind of down the middle.

[A]

I think that's a perfect way to be.

[B]

Honestly, I think most people are actually like that.

[A]

In the middle. More in the middle. Yeah, just leave everybody alone. Like, I don't want to get too political, but like, if you want to do what you want, you want to get abortion, you want to do whatever you want, do what you want to do. Don't rub it at anybody's face, you know, like.

[B]

And also don't try to force me to align with your beliefs. And we're probably going to be okay because I can respect yours from a distance, you can respect mine. And we're going to be all right.

[A]

Absolutely. Just leave everybody alone. You know, if you want to take care, do whatever you got to do. Just, you know, do it on your own, you know, it's no one's business anyway. So when I joined that MP unit I got stuck with, my first line leader was a female, my sec, you know her. My second line was a female, you know, another female all the way up to like the battalion commander. And I. I firmly believe their mission was to. Unfortunately, I don't. Was to take care of women over men. And I hate to say that, but like I said, I'm just going to tell it.

[B]

Some people are like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. There were so many instance instances where like, you know, this, this man who was good at his job would just. He'd be stuck, you know, and not getting promoted or this and that. And these females would just out, you know, out promote and this and that.

[B]

And yeah, people. Well, life isn't fair, but also correct inside of that system. Yeah, the people above you can have some impact on that. And I would love to say that everybody in the military is altruistic and they don't align like that. That isn't the case. I would say it's probably not the majority, but I think it is also very fair and accurate to say that there are pockets of isolation where that is 100% true.

[A]

I saw it and it was sick. Like, this guy is so good at his job. I mean, he is a. He's a go getter. Never late, nothing. He's always, you know, just squared away. Then you have a woman who isn't, but she's, you know, that also being said, I had a platoon sergeant later who was a female. Her name was Tara. And she kicked ass. I mean, she was awesome.

[B]

This is why I'm a fan of meritocracies.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

I could give what's between your legs if you can meet the standard, like I am all about it.

[A]

There are standards. Yes. You meet them, you're good to go. She met those standards and I'm telling you, she took care of all of us. And I owe a lot to her, too. Like that group of women before, I had been accused of calling one of them the B word. As I look you in the eyes now. I didn't say it. If I said it, I would tell you. I said it. I didn't say it. It's a. It's a name, whatever. Not a big deal. I was under investigation for the three years. Because of that three years, I couldn't go to drill.

[B]

I think I've called a few hundred men that.

[A]

Yeah. And they probably laugh at you and call your name back.

[B]

I think it was just our opening greeting.

[A]

Yeah, that or what's up? Exactly. It's funny. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

However, I don't think that applies equally to women. I do not think we can use said greeting.

[A]

Yeah, I know, Right. Yeah. Usually in the combat arms, the worst the word, you know, the better the word. You know what I mean? It's.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's a compliment, actually.

[B]

If they're being kind to you, you're a little bit worried that something's wrong.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Like, why isn't anybody making fun of me? They're making fun of everybody else. I'm being excluded.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't like me.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not saying it's the healthiest environment, everybody. I'm just saying that's the way it is.

[A]

Good at their jobs. So, yeah, so that happened. I was. I was under investigation for three years because of this. And like, the craziest part about it is, like, this woman said that I said it in front of a bunch of people, and like, other people were like, no, he didn't say it. Yeah, he didn't call you the B word because I didn't call you the B word.

[B]

I feel like that would be a short investigation as opposed to 36.

[A]

You would think. So in the infantry, on active duty, the Tank Corps, they would have laughed and said, yeah, let's. Let's get real here, you know? Well, that's not how it is in the MP Corps. In the National Guard, I was out for three years because of it. I ended up accepting like a lor. Letter. Letter of reprimand or something, because at that point, like, it's. It's not even worth it anymore. You know, it's like, you know, I'm gonna get out anyway. A little piece of paper that says I called somebody a B word that I didn't, you know, I didn't actually call them that. Whatever, no big deal. So that. That put a bad taste in my mouth. I got out at 17 years, so, you know, whatever is what it is. But, yeah, so going from that active duty combat arms to the reserves mp, I would not recommend for anybody.

[B]

When did you actually go through civilian law enforcement Academy?

[A]

Okay, so 2016.

[B]

Okay, so you were. You were still doing the National Guard.

[A]

I was still doing. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And that was the thing that drew me to law enforcement was when I first became an mp. I was like, yeah, there's a lot of cops in this.

[B]

Yeah, it's a good exposure.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I ended up doing that. I was the vice president of my class in the academy, and I think the only reason I was was because I had. I had the military experience. And I think my class commander. I'm sorry, my academy commander, he had walked in at the. A few times, just at the right time, where he heard me, like, maybe mentoring somebody or.

[B]

This is a staff member.

[A]

Yeah. He was a captain in the police department who ran the academy. And I think they walked in at just the right time, like a few times where they heard me, like, maybe mentoring somebody. And it. They thought, oh, this guy might be a leader, you know, so they ended up making me, like, academy vice president. The academy president. She's a federal agent now. She also kicks ass. This. This girl. Yeah, she's. She's awesome. But anyway, I did that. I did some corrections at the jail in Cleveland, Ohio.

[B]

How was that?

[A]

That was insane. Yeah. A lot of fighting.

[B]

Yes. I've heard some interesting stories about working in jails.

[A]

Yeah. So I did three on the. The worst floor, so. And it's.

[B]

Is it as bad as the story is ever?

[A]

Cuyahog County, It's. Oh, it's awful. I mean, there was a guy that got beat to death when I was

[B]

there by another inmate.

[A]

By another inmate. Beat this guy to death. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So. But again, when it comes back to people in your life that really took care of you with good intentions. My. My supervisor, former Marine guy, always looked out for me. I mean, he gave me everything I needed, you know, all the resources. This. That. So there were times, like, I remember one guy, he had. He had killed his girlfriend and his two kids. You can look this up. It's. It's out there.

[B]

Did they put you in your own cell at least if you were arrested for that?

[A]

No, because it happened. I mean, there's murderers. The 10th floor of that jail is where I worked. I mean, they're all murderers. There's people on death row.

[B]

How.

[A]

There were cop killers up there that I would have conversations every day with, with. And I remember one time, this guy, young, young guy, like 25 or something, killed his girlfriend, his two kids, because his girlfriend was caught at the neighbor's house. Some kind of relationship, so he went and killed them all.

[B]

Did he rationalize that in his own head? As if, like, I had no other choice.

[A]

The thing about, you know, when. Where he grew up is crime, like that murder, that culture is. It's normal. It's not really anything big.

[B]

Violence was the norm, nor guns, shooting people.

[A]

I mean, that's how. How you grew up. But anyway, I remember one time, they're. The biggest thing in the jail is respect. Like, if you talk to somebody with respect, they'll generally be cool, but sometimes you just can't avoid it. Sometimes they're you know, they're having a bad day, whatever, and they're, you know, it's bad. But anyway, I remember one time he. I said something to him, and he. He looked at me, he said, I'm gonna kill you. And he came at me. And that supervisor I told you about came in at the exact same. I mean, the perfect time. He just happened to be checking on me at the perfect time. And this guy just stopped because, you know, Marine guy, and he had a reputation. You know, you don't mess with this guy. And came at the perfect time, and the guy just kind of like. And he was a big old dude and he probably would have killed me. Yeah. And he came in at the right time and de. Escalated things and. Yeah.

[B]

What happens to somebody in jail if they make that threat to the officer working there? I mean, is there. I mean, they're already in jail. Would they send them to the jail inside of the jail?

[A]

Actually, yeah, it's called. I think it's. It's called the hole. Yeah. The jail inside of the jail. Basically, you're on lockdown for the entire day, you know, because you'll have, like, your pods with maybe like, you'll have like a. Like your common area and then surrounded by cells. So.

[B]

So I guess it can get a little bit worse. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, that job, like, being a corrections officer, that is hands down the worst, hardest, least. I mean, that's the worst job.

[B]

If you were to try to write a job description that would keep 99.9 of people away, I think it would be the corrections officer, adult babysitter.

[A]

I mean, it's. It's. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, it's things getting thrown at them. We don't have to be specific about what it is. Let's just.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Your eyes. And not even just that. Like, there's a political aspect to, like using force on. Obviously using force on humans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I remember one time, that same supervisor, this. This guy headbutted him. He was. He was standing behind. My supervisor was standing behind this guy, and he went ahead, hit him in the head and he hurt him bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what I did is I came around this dude and I put my arm like this across his chest. Yeah. And I took him down. Well, on all the cameras, it looked like I was putting him in a headlock.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is a big. No, no.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Lethal force. Headlock. Yeah.

[B]

Do you mean a choke or a headlock? These are two.

[A]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. A choke. Excuse me.

[B]

So is it lethal?

[A]

Yes. In Law enforcement.

[B]

Lethal.

[A]

It doesn't have to be, but, I

[B]

mean, if you hold it for like seven minutes.

[A]

Yeah, but seven minutes on one person might be different than seven minutes on another person. You know, it's. It's all different, so.

[B]

Need to be able to render people unconscious.

[A]

Yeah, I. No comment. Yeah, so I remember I took him to the ground, but I, you know, I had my hand. There's a gap. Yeah.

[B]

It wasn't an error or a blood choke.

[A]

Correct. Yeah. And out of all the cameras, there was one camera that caught me not putting my hand. You know, it caught the gap. Yeah. And it saved me, like, you know, who knows? I would have been fired. Who knows?

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Yeah. So there's that.

[B]

Do you train?

[A]

I started Jiu Jitsu recently.

[B]

Why? Just recently. You touch people professionally.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Well, I wanted to impress you. No, I'm kidding.

[B]

Did you train the two dudes off? What about you? I'm sorry, what belt are you?

[A]

I don't train like that.

[B]

No?

[A]

No.

[B]

What do you train like?

[A]

Taekwondo, Aikido, lots of guns.

[B]

Do you guys train Jiu Jitsu?

[A]

No.

[B]

You guys are both cops, aren't you?

[A]

No, sir. He's former infantry guy, the one that I was inactive with.

[B]

All right.

[A]

He's a. He's a guy. We were on SWAT together.

[B]

Unbelievable. What are you going to do if you can't go lethal and your taser doesn't work?

[A]

You can see, pray. Try that.

[B]

For the love of Christ.

[A]

Rob. Rob here. I would. I'd like to say the reason wasn't that the nearest Jiu Jitsu gym for us is 45 minutes. Yeah.

[B]

the end of the day, train with each other. You guys gotta figure it out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think that every cop should be a black belt at all.

[A]

Don't get me wrong.

[B]

But I do think if you could get most guys to a blue belt level, it would make you guys way better.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Because you can control the vast majority of people at blue belt.

[A]

Do you. Would you like to go into my. The whole police training and that whole thing that I just. I'm so adamant about. Okay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Mr. Rob Tucson here, him and I were in SWAT together. I mean, he's. He's proven. Proven himself.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

To himself. Everyone else, time and time again. The man has never failed as far as from.

[B]

Because he hasn't wrestled yet.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he will now. Kidding. That's funny. Yeah, that's funny. So don't get me wrong.

[B]

The entire time I was a seal, I didn't do any jiu jitsu either.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Everybody thinks that seals know how to fight. I'm like, I, absolutely.

[A]

And when you take one down, you're like, you know, golden God. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But yeah, absolutely. We had overwhelming firepower. Numerical superiority was our technique.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And I look back, it was so dumb. So dumb.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Again, it's a misconception. So I'm, I'm tongue and cheek. I'm with you, but at the same time, I have nowhere to with you from, because I didn't. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like I said, I've been in, I've been in quite a few fights hand to hand and I didn't always win. Like, it's.

[B]

Yeah, that's how it goes.

[A]

Like, I've gotten my. I've gotten beat up before as a cop. Like. Yeah, not beat, obviously.

[B]

Well, there's no magic out there. You could be a black belt and all of a sudden encounter a dude who was a bare knuckle boxing champion. And let me tell you how that's gonna go.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Give your black belt back when you're in the hospital, when you wake up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no kidding, right? She's. So there's good thing about being a cop is like there's. You have a radio and you have people around that'll not all, but.

[B]

Yeah, no, I get it. There's a little bit of a safety net.

[A]

There's a safety net, yeah. Last resort. I mean, I have a firearm. If I need to use it. You know, if I'm getting choked out or something, I obviously have no problem using it.

[B]

Oh, that's an interesting question. So if, if it is considered lethal force for an officer to apply that to a civilian, if a civilian tried to do that to you.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Okay, that's fair.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's not lethal, but I mean like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean it can be.

[B]

Well, I mean, water can be lethal. Let's be honest. There's a leaf. Yes, Water too. I get what they're saying, but I'm glad that it's at least a coin that cuts both directions.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, that's good thing about like, I don't know, I guess our area people realize that, you know, they realize things that they're not. I don't know. Generally people support us for the most part where we're from, but. Yeah. So as far as like police training, you know, again, I don't, I don't represent my department, anything like that. This is, you know, my opinions. I Think there's this huge, like, lack of training and it bothers me. I mean, it bothers me so much.

[B]

What would it take to fix it?

[A]

Obviously, money. Time, I guess.

[B]

But if you guys had more money, would you be able to find more time? Is this a matter of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Say, facilities, like. Right. Because you could find efficiencies. Or whether it be additional facilities bringing trainers to you.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I just think so. Money, obviously. But it is my firm belief, like your basic patrolman, you know, they don't. I mean, as far as, like, let's talk about their firearms. Like, they don't train on them very often. They do their qualifications, you know, annually. And like, I walk around my department and I'll look at people's like, I'll see their optic on their, Their weapon and like, it's covered in dust. I'll be okay. Can I. Let me see your weapon really quick. Dust it off. Because not only, like, that's not only going to save you, but that might save me, you know, like. Yeah, I'll take the gun out, I'll oil it for him, clean it up.

[B]

You may never need it, but if you do, that stuff has got to be work.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. There's a lot of videos out there of it, of, you know, things not working when they should. Yeah. But anyway, so I, I really, like, it's sad to me that, like, there's not enough training and you'll see, like, let's say there's like a vehicle pursuit and there's like 20 cops behind him or something, and the car crashes. What's the first thing you see? You see all these cops swarm this car, firearms drawn, every one of them flagging somebody. Like, not only that, like, and then they start shooting and there's cars driving by and, you know, it's like, you can't be doing that. Like, what if you.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, honestly, they might be over their skis from a adrenaline perspective. I don't know what type of force on force training. I mean, again, it comes back to the. What you're exposed to and what is reinforced is going to inform performance in those moments. I mean, you got all the way up to the level of being a SWAT officer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I guarantee you a SWAT officer in a vehicle pursuit is probably going to have a lower heart rate, a better ability to articulate over the radio what's going on, better skills. And then when the car chase ends, they're going to be more aware of those things. But what's that from additional training?

[A]

So yeah. So Rob, Rob Toussaint, great guy. And this is, you know, him and I met on the SWAT team. This is kind of what I want to tie into is like I wish every patrolman could have a week of SWAT training. Yeah, the things I learned in SWAT training, I mean the discipline, the, you know, just everything you learn. I mean it's incredible. And I shouldn't say all SWAT teams

[B]

are good, but like it's at least additional training.

[A]

It's additional training, you know, with a, with a firearm or with a carbine. Yeah. So the team I was on, the city of alliance, pretty renowned team.

[B]

Joe Meyer, was it an ancillary duty or they have a permanent team.

[A]

So it was a part time team. But. But the cool part about it was so Joe Wire, he was the commander. He has rubbed elbows with a lot of people and you know, it's, it's paid off, you know. So he was able to set up this entire training facility in Alliance, Ohio, which is 60 miles south of Cleveland.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Near Canton, Ohio. And there's this entire, you know, training facility. I mean it's incredible. I think they're. His training program was rated 2 in the country recently for training facilities. City of Alliance. I mean, incredible. Do you know Tulam Ronan?

[B]

I know who it. I know who he is. I don't know.

[A]

Okay. So I met him. He came down there to train or to do a commercial. We did commercials for Springfield Armory which is really cool cuz they'd give us free guns.

[B]

That is a benefit.

[A]

Yeah, that was to pay for doing these commercials. Really cool. But anyway, so these, you know, incredible training facility, you know, big shoot house, long range breaching. He was huge. Joe was huge on breaching which if you know, you get to an opt, you can't get inside, you're.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're screwed. So that kind of stuff. Well, anyway, going back to what you said about the training, the experience, calm under pressure. Rob, him and I were talking about this, you know, recently hostage guy had a knife to her, his wife's wife's throat and he had started cutting her, Rob. And he told me he credits a lot of this to SWAT training and to Joe and you know, the whole team. When you train so much, you don't have to think about certain things like your offset your, you know, that he saw a threat engaged. This goes back to the, you know, not enough training because your normal patrolman wouldn't know like wouldn't necessarily take offset new accountability.

[B]

Or does a normal patrolman Train much on their carbine or where you work? Do they. Do they have carbines in their cars at least?

[A]

Yeah, so my department. My department's actually really good about that. We all have carbines. We all issued our own cars and all.

[B]

That's great. But like you said, like, if you're not, hey, my holdover at 25 yards or 7 yards versus 50.

[A]

50. Yeah, 200, whatever, you know. But anyway, like. Like Rob, he knew because of all this training, the muscle memory, you know, the SWAT training, you know, paid off, you know, he's able to save this lady's life. So things like that, you know, that normal patrolman wouldn't have that training, you know where. And I hate to say this, but a lot of patrolmen wouldn't have. Wouldn't have acted, you know. Yeah. Look at Uvalde. Do you know, like, what.

[B]

Have they actually come out and done a real full after or at least law enforcement agencies getting that? Because I don't necessarily. Well, I would want them to promote that far and wide. And I don't mean promote, but I mean disseminate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I can imagine them maybe doing so at a little bit more of a sensitive level, at least inside of law enforcement. Are they honest about what happened there? And I should say, more importantly, what didn't?

[A]

Well, I think somebody recently, one of the officers, I think they. I don't know if they got arrested or something happened.

[B]

I know that one of the officers got arrested.

[A]

I think something happened. I don't want to say they got arrested.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If they didn't. But I. Something happened where I will say this, or they got charged or something.

[B]

Some of my favorite YouTube videos are sheriffs pulling police officers over. THEY argue. First off, what kind of do you have to be to pull over other people and marked police?

[A]

Yeah, but on the. Yeah, but on the flip side of that.

[B]

Here's the thing, though. They have millions of views and I'm one of the people that. I'm like, oh, this is happening here. I have to watch this.

[A]

Oh, yeah. This is like, what I shouldn't do. No, but on the flip side of that, you know, the. The cops shouldn't have been doing 120 in the school zone, you know, But. Yeah, but. Yeah. So, Uvalde, what would you and I have done in the situation? I would have went in there so fast. Well, not so fast, but tactically I would have.

[B]

Well, you run. You run to the sound of the guns.

[A]

Exactly. I wouldn't have hesitated. Yeah, I would have been excited like, and we saved these children.

[B]

I don't know if I would have been excited. I don't get excited in those moments. I feel a sense of obligation and duty.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't.

[B]

I know what you mean.

[A]

I would have been excited to save a child is what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah. But in those moments, it seems as if. And again, I have never been in a situation where there was an active shooter in a school. But it seems from the outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That the move is reduce the amount of time that that person or persons have access to, to the victims. How do you do that? You close the distance.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. But, yeah, like, like I said, the SWAT guys look forward to, you know, saving children or this and that, you know, in those kind of situations. So, you know, things like that. Like, there was no excuse for those guys. I mean, I wasn't there again. But like, you got to live with yourself after that, you know, like.

[B]

Which is a tough one.

[A]

It's a tough one. But you signed up to put yourself in harm's way.

[B]

I still haven't. I haven't talked with anybody who is directly there. I've talked with some people there who were peripherally there.

[A]

What'd they say?

[B]

Well, they didn't say much. And that's why I ask. I don't know. Has there ever been like a thorough debrief that was disseminated to law enforcement? One of the questions I had.

[A]

Oh, I mean, yeah, they. Yeah, there's a lot of lessons learned.

[B]

One of the questions I had was, and again, I'm not incredibly familiar with the architecture of the school. Yeah, everybody's focused on what's going on in the hallway. Were there external windows that you could have like, dude, like button hook around. Like, I will shoot somebody through a window. Like.

[A]

But that's maybe lack of training, you know. Yeah.

[B]

And you do get. I mean you can get front side focus is. Is real and especially if there's a collection of people there. But I mean, like one outside of the box thinker who didn't want to wait in the hallway. And it's like pine off on windows again.

[A]

You told me there wasn't one guy there that.

[B]

Well, again, we're morning, Monday morning quarterbacking the shit out of this, trying to do that. But those are the questions like, that I have, like, what's the arc? What's the layout of this building?

[A]

What like, and that goes back to your training. You should know what every school looks like, your SWAT teams, and at least

[B]

in your municipality, that's What I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah, you should be going like, like what we did, we went to these schools. We did, we trained, we did, you know, breach. We did everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In these schools. So that if it came down to it, you know, we. We knew what the school looked like, you know.

[B]

Yeah. At least you're not going in completely blind.

[A]

Completely blind. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that was a show, man.

[A]

Yeah. Sad, sad. You know, all those kids and. Yeah, a lot of lessons to be learned. But. Yeah. So I think another thing that separates, you know, the. The SWAT guys and patrol is like, you can, sure, you can shoot somebody, whatever, but like, can you not shoot somebody? Like, can you pay attention to that little detail that, oh, I don't have to shoot this person or.

[B]

I'd hope so.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? And that's what I'm saying. Like there's that SWAT stuff is like, they show. That's what you train for. Like, I don't know, maybe the guy's bolts locked back or something. You know, that's just a little example. But maybe I could just, you know, maybe I don't have to shoot this guy. Maybe, you know, there's just things you learn, you know, the discipline and you know, whatnot that you wouldn't necessarily learn on patrol.

[B]

So how long you been at it now as a police officer?

[A]

Say nine years. Going on nine.

[B]

Nine years.

[A]

I work nights. Full time. Night shifter.

[B]

Do you like that?

[A]

I.

[B]

Because you sleep all day essentially, right? Vampire schedule.

[A]

I like to sleep all day. You know, I have children. And. And that. That's the worst part about it is like, you know, my kids, it's like,

[B]

what are your guys nights, like six to six or what do you guys.

[A]

Right now? I do, I get in at 10:30. I stay till about 6:30. Okay. But I mean, night time, it's like you don't get all the stupid calls, like. Yeah, I don't know, the neighbor disputes or just. Just stupid things, you know. But some of the calls we get, I mean, they're good calls. Like, I've been on chase. There's a lot of pursuits. I recently, I had a pursuit turned into a crash. You know, foot chase, you know, that kind of stuff. It's stolen cars. What did I have the other day? A pursuit that led to a fight, you know. Yeah, a lot of good calls happened tonight. Not. I shouldn't say good, but, you know, a lot of,

[B]

you know, activity.

[A]

Activity. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

[B]

What originally got you? Explain to me what led you to originally leading out? Because. Yeah, I mean, so I'm appreciative that we spent the time to kind of give context to who you are in the backstory.

[A]

But of course. Yeah. We gotta.

[B]

It's an interesting talk about this. Yeah. What happened, Because I think people unpack it to the best of your ability. Because I'm sure some people. To include myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was aware that something had happened. Right.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Train derailment. Like that's going to make national news. It actually might make global news.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wasn't really aware of any of the might. No, it's like a train derailment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People did die, right?

[A]

No, no, no. Nobody died from the actual train derailment. So for, you know, obviously for those listening and whatnot. East Palestine, the train derailment.

[B]

Pull this sucker up, Michael.

[A]

So I sent you some pictures and, you know, I sent you, I think, my orders. You know, I was there, no question. Yeah. And I was actually an nco.

[B]

So how did it play out for you that day?

[A]

Because you're so.

[B]

Did that happen at night or were you not working?

[A]

I think it happened early morning.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I was on the phone at home with a friend, and I get a notification, you know, your guard unit's been activated. In getting a guard activation, this is

[B]

where Michael really earns it, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Which. Oh, so the one on the far right. So that right there. I mean, that. Just looking at that picture on the bottom there. Yeah, look at that. I mean.

[B]

Okay, so what caused this derailment?

[A]

So there was a. An axle on one of the trains that had some issue with it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In cameras prior, you know, a few miles down the road, had caught the wheel sparking, you know, so that's what actually ended up causing it. Yeah. So just.

[B]

You can tell that this is a cargo train for sure.

[A]

So. Oh, man. So just looking at this, like, I mean, was crazy. But anyway, there was a bunch of chemicals and you heard that were, you know, very poisonous. Big one. Vinyl chloride.

[B]

Vinyl chloride?

[A]

Vinyl chloride.

[B]

Never heard of it.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's no good.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Yeah, so we were. I was on the phone with a friend, and they. And I got the notification. Getting activated in the National Guards, like getting like a SWAT call out or,

[B]

you know, and that's usually for emergency and disaster.

[A]

Correct reaction.

[B]

Right. Or riot control or for people who are watching this. You can tell this probably meets the criteria.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. So the. The BLM riots, we got activated to that too, in downtown Cleveland, stuff like that. But anyway, the big thing about this was you Know, I was on the phone with a friend, and I got the activation, went to the unit. So we were up for probably a day without sleep. And, you know, you and I, That's. That's okay. It's not. It's not the only one.

[B]

I mean, let me be clear. It's not my favorite.

[A]

It sucks, but I can function. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Not looking for chances to do that at this point in my life.

[A]

Correct. Yeah. So some of the other people I was with, you know, really wore down on them not sleeping for the first day. But anyway, we get. Get to our unit, and they're like, you need to go. You guys need to go now. We opt in Humvees, we drove out here. And what did they want you to do? So that's. That's part of the thing. It's like.

[B]

Because this is not. I mean, for. Again, for people watching, and this is obviously the first images. It was on fire in the daytime. So this is either before or after that. But this is a substantial period of time where this thing is burning. I'm gonna guess this is after, because this looks like it's grown.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So, I mean, what are you gonna do in a Humvee, drive over this?

[A]

So that's how that was. The thing is, like, we were mps. I mean, the big thing here was, were the chemicals. And there were some really bad chemicals on this in this train. And they had. Apparently they had been expanding or something. That would have led to, like, a ridiculous explosion. So they evacuated everybody. They called us, and they made the decision to release these chemicals in the air. Apparently the train people, you know.

[B]

Oh, are you talking about the stuff that was in the actual.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the decision was. Yeah, instead of. If they leave it in there, it would potentially explode. So basically reduce the chances. I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm basically a scientist. So what I'm thinking is this is like shaking up a Coke bottle, and instead of letting it up, you're like. And you let you. Yeah, yeah, fuse the.

[A]

Just a lot bigger scale.

[B]

And I feel like I need to be wearing a white coat for this right now. Figuring this out.

[A]

Yeah, this would be a very large Coke bottle, but. Yeah. So all these really bad chemicals, and

[B]

they made the decision to release.

[A]

Release. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So one of the chemicals was vinyl chloride, and it's. I mean, it's. It's really poisonous. It's really bad. And I was standing there. So they. Let's go back a couple of days when I first got there. They had us, like, kind of stationed around the town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't let anybody in. And there were people, like, coming up to us, like, I don't.

[B]

In protective gear. Did you guys have gas on?

[A]

There are so many things to this that were just so screwed up. They called the mps when they should have called the chemical guys, you know, the chemical battalion, which we have.

[B]

Yeah, this is like an nbr. Nuclear, biological, radiological.

[A]

And. And they sent us. They sent us here. And half of us had pro masks, a gas mask for those that don't know which. I don't know what good it would have done, but who knows? At least a peace of mind, you know? They told us right away, don't wear those things. You don't want to scare people. Like, well, people probably are already scared. They told us, don't wear them. And I'm like.

[B]

And this is the National Guard telling you.

[A]

National Guard telling us. Well, I think the city or the village, whatever it is, I think they told the National Guard, like, hey, I don't think you guys should.

[B]

Don't wear protective equipment because it might

[A]

scare equipment, might square others. Scare others. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I don't think they wanted pictures of troops and masks and.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So right away I was like, geez, so that sucks. So we had gone there, and we were kind of stationed around the town with local police or, you know, sheriff's, highway patrol.

[B]

Yes. Just working essentially a perimeter.

[A]

A perimeter, yeah. Actually, at one point, I was pretty deep into the town, and I remember people would. It's almost like they snuck in, you know, and they'd be like, hey, my dog's in there. Like, can I get my dog? Like, dude, go get your dog. Like, you're a grown man. Yeah, go get your dog. You know, go get what you need. I'm not here to, you know, tramp on anybody's rights. Like. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, so I think after the second day, or I can't quite remember, they made that decision to release these chemicals. And that list of chemicals I sent you, like, from what I was told, only about half those came out to the public. I can't confirm that or not, but some of those chemicals were used, I think, in World War I as, like, some kind of, like, chemical agents or something.

[B]

How did they release them? Like, what's the mechanism to do that?

[A]

I think they had explosives. I think that blew holes into the train. I can't quite.

[B]

So they. Somebody went up. If they use that. Somebody either a robot or somebody had to go up and implant Those.

[A]

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[B]

Holy cow.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So as they made this. This decision to release these chemicals, there was probably like 20 policemen and 20 guardsmen standing maybe 200 yards from this site. And I actually drove, I got lost at one point. And we drove right next to these trains before it was released.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I think I sent you that video too, of like the train wreck, like right here. And we're like, what the heck? Because, you know, we weren't allowed to be there, so we were kind of scared. We turned around.

[B]

Anyway, how far had they told you to stay away from it?

[A]

They never really told us, like, how far to stay away from it. They just. They made it clear that this was not good. Okay. So Anyway, we're about 200 yards right before they make this decision to release. We got all these policemen and these guardsmen standing there and we weren't ready. Like, we thought it would be a little longer before they actually released it. Next thing you know, we watch this mushroom cloud just go up in the sky of this black smoke and this mushroom cloud. I mean, it looks like, just thinking about it, seeing pictures of it, it's

[B]

like, find this mushroom cloud if you can, Michael.

[A]

I sent some good pictures from my personal phone too.

[B]

If you haven't, you can airdrop into him as well, too.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it was awful.

[B]

Yeah. Find them and airdrop them if you can, because we can pull people. See, it'll help paint the. The visual picture.

[A]

Yeah. Let me turn this back on.

[B]

When they released them, I mean, we talking like fireball, mushroom cloud.

[A]

So.

[B]

Oh, Michael, go to the second video on the right.

[A]

Yeah. Like a mushroom cloud of Ohio.

[B]

Train derailment. Explosion sparks. The start of controlled.

[A]

Okay, perfect. Yeah. See the explosion.

[B]

Okay, so that was not accidental. This was a controlled.

[A]

Oh, yeah, controlled explosion. I wonder if you can see where we are at this point. Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, there you go. There's the black mushroom cloud you're talking about.

[A]

So I watched this happen live from maybe a couple hundred yards out.

[B]

Look at that thing working towards the trees on the left hand side. Holy cow.

[A]

So I mean, imagine seeing this with your. Your naked eyes, like in front of you. So we see this, right? 30 seconds later we get this. Just this taste of chemicals. And then the only thing I can really compare it to when I. Do you remember, like being a kid, did you ever put like a quarter in your mouth or something or.

[B]

Yeah. Did you look at 9 volt?

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Michael, did you. Have you ever looked at 9 volt

[A]

battery yeah, actually, that's a pretty good.

[B]

Pretty good. I just want to make sure that children are still the same.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No respect for warnings or reasonability of any kind. I'm glad to see that your generation hasn't evolved past my own.

[A]

I. I'll be honest, I don't know how to airdrop.

[B]

That's all right. I actually, I mean, we found, I think, probably an even better example that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who owned this train?

[A]

North Folk Southern.

[B]

So this is a private company?

[A]

Yes, a very, very large private.

[B]

Transporting chemicals, obviously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where was the destination for this? I mean, I know that some chemicals, obviously, in combination. Yeah. They can become really dangerous. And of course, nobody ever expects this to happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But this is like a normal thing. This wasn't like some DOD assigned train taken.

[A]

Yeah. This was just a private company.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Transporting these chemicals.

[B]

Did they set the explosions?

[A]

I believe the train company hired contractors or whoever to detonate this. But I've also heard. And like I said, I don't want to. Like, I wouldn't say this unless I had some pretty good sources, but, like, I heard things like, they did it without telling the city or, you know, without coming to an agreement. Yeah.

[B]

You know, and so again, what were they butting up against? They thought it was going to explode anyways, so it was better to have it be a control.

[A]

Control debt instead of a catastrophic. Which is fair, if that's really the case.

[B]

Well, that's also assuming, though, that your control detonation doesn't expand accidentally to an uncontrolled one. I mean.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I have a little bit more experience with explosives than most people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's an art form. More than a science.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy just looking at it. I mean, it's.

[B]

That mushroom crab was unbelievable.

[A]

Oh, yeah. So. So we watch this cloud go up. Right. And then we get this taste. And they had told us basically to hold the line there.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm assuming you guys had to have been downwind.

[A]

Oh. I mean, I don't think it mattered at that point because it was going everywhere. Yeah. So we get this taste. And I remember, like, it's like putting a. We're looking at 9 volt battery. And everybody at the same time was like, you know, you got this taste and your eyes started to burn, your skin was burning. And somebody made the decision. I think it was a trooper. Like, we're not staying here. We're leaving. Because they had told us, kind of. Hold that line.

[B]

Yeah. It might already be too late, though, man.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

And were you still Operating in a National Guard capacity.

[A]

National Guard. Okay, because this was 2023.

[B]

But you were co. Located with law enforcement.

[A]

Yeah, it was like a joint. Mutual. Mutual agent.

[B]

I'm just trying to figure out where your chain of command would follow.

[A]

Okay, so there were people complaining. I mean, like, eyes burning. I mean, me too. I mean, it was. It was bad, you know, itching, itchy skin. And if you remember seeing some of the pictures of all the dead wildlife in the river.

[B]

Do you.

[A]

Do you remember that?

[B]

No. Michael, start pulling up this stuff. What are you even doing over there?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Poorly.

[A]

So there were, like, per. There were, like, fish. There were. If you would, like, tap the river, the little streams and all that there, they were, like, covered in oil and, like, chemicals. So all these animals, this wildlife, you know, they had died. And a lot of the villagers were just like. I know brain cancer was a thing after. Yeah, people were getting sick. Like, very sick.

[B]

You know what they say.

[A]

Early bird gets the ultimate vacation home.

[B]

Book early and save over $120 with VRBO, because early gets you closer to

[A]

the action, whether it's waves lapping at the shore or snoozing in a hammock that overlooks.

[B]

Well, whatever you want it to. So you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with VRBO's early booking deals. Rise and shine. Average savings, $141.

[A]

Select homes only. I. A week later. So I remember feeling right away how crappy I felt.

[B]

Yeah. And so you guys decided, like, hey, we're gonna move. And then what did the.

[A]

Moved maybe a couple. Couple miles away. Yeah.

[B]

And then when did the National Guard pull you guys back?

[A]

Probably a few hours later. We. We all went back to kind of

[B]

like, our posts, and we're like, was there the fire department out there? Were they managing this at all?

[A]

Yeah, the fire department was out there, but it's. It's. It's a small town, so, yeah, you know, they did what they could. And they. I mean, the fire department, they were. Yeah, I mean, they were. They were busy. They were doing the right thing, doing everything they could. But anyway, like, we end up coming back and stayed for maybe four or five more days kind of like in the area. Everybody was complaining. I mean, you could look at people's eyes and just see, like, they weren't the right color. Like, there were people's this weird yellow,

[B]

red, like, jaundiced, almost.

[A]

Yeah, almost. Yeah. Yeah. And like, these are people, like, under me that, like, I care about, like, my soldiers and stuff and, like, oh, so bad. Just People, like, serving their country, like, trying to get through college or, you know, they didn't have the means to go to college, so they joined the military, you know, doing the right thing, you know, so you know, that. And then, like, I remember. So the guy in charge was General Harris. And he was. He. I give that man credit because he was there on the ground with us. He was there. I had conversations with this guy. Like, I give him credit for being there. He didn't have to be there. He. I think he ended up, like, pushing a reporter or getting a fight with a reporter or something.

[B]

It's a pretty rough look.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. For general. But like I said, I give him credit. Like, he was. He walked down to ground zero with me and my people, and he stayed there and he, you know, hung out with us and made sure we were okay, for the most part anyway. So that happened, and I'd say about a week later is when things really started getting weird. Myself especially. I got a feeling in my stomach, and I called a couple friends up, and I was like, hey, something. Something's not right. I had some headaches. I had some. Some minor vision problems.

[B]

And this is you back at home now no longer still okay.

[A]

Yeah, I had some minor vision problems and stuff. And it kind of just like a week later is really, like, when it kind of just hit and started hurting my stomach. And I called one of my, like, medic friends or something, and I told him. They said, you keep an eye on that, you know, and if you look online. And some of the doctors that I've talked to said, like, there's a direct link between, like, appendicitis and chemical exposure and, you know, that kind of thing. So I was like, okay, whatever, you know, it'll go away, you know, so it starts getting worse and worse. And I was doing some training, and I told the medic, like, hey, something's really wrong with me with my stomach. And I described what was going on, and they were like, you need to go to the hospital, like, right now. I think your appendix is going to explode. So I was like, no, I can't be. Whatever. So they're like, no, you need to go. So I ended up going, whatever. And the doctor's like, this thing. Your appendix needs to come out right now.

[B]

Yeah, they don't seem to mess around with that particular one.

[A]

No.

[B]

I guess if you get there late. Well, I. I don't know if people know this. I am not a doctor. No, I don't practice. Well, Not a practice.

[A]

Not a practicing doctor. Yeah, I could do some things, but.

[B]

But I have heard that if the old appendix bursts, whatever's in there, it's important. And I'm not gonna lie, I don't actually know exactly what the appendix does.

[A]

I think it's a filter.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

I think.

[B]

But whatever's in there, if it were to burst and start spreading out in

[A]

your body, it'll kill you.

[B]

It's real, real bad.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And I think that's why they treat it so seriously.

[A]

They do? Yeah. Because people have. Have died from this, you know, from first. So I get to the hospital, the emergency room, and they're like, it's coming out now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, I wasn't preparing to go into surgery when I got there or on the way there, and one of my friends, he, you know, he was there with me. Awesome guy, Ian. He, you know, stayed there with me, and they took it out and I was in the hospital for a few days, and it started getting. So they took that out and it started getting even weirder. I mean, ask Rob and Mike. Like, if I drink something, I have to, like, maybe an hour later or so, or a couple hours later, whatever. Like, if I drink a full beverage, like, I will pee non stop, but. But I'm not peeing. I just have that sensation. I'll, like, pee a little bit non stop every five minutes for. For hours. And, like, it all feels this from that. Like, it's from the left side of my body. It's really weird. It's plagued me, like, on the airplane. Like, we're getting ready to take off. I'm like, no, I need to pee. Like, I told them, my guys, like, I'm so sorry. It's embarrassing and it's humiliating. Like, they're like, dude, you need to go to the bathroom.

[B]

Like, I mean, it's neither of those things for clarity.

[A]

No, not at all.

[B]

No. I mean, it's not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you. I mean, you're dealing with something that's super real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe just start with inconvenient.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's not. It shouldn't be embarrassing. Like, don't.

[A]

Yeah. It's just like, I don't know, you're

[B]

putting that pressure on yourself.

[A]

Yeah, I suppose. But, you know, I thought only my grandfather, you know, peed every five minutes.

[B]

Yeah. Did he stand next to this fricking mushroom cloud?

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He only can control so much, man.

[A]

I know. I know. But. Yeah. So we're, like, getting ready to take off and I'm like, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, stand there for, for three minutes, haven't peed yet. You know, like finally I go, the fight attendant's like glaring at me. And like, I'm sorry. But anyway, so that, and then like just this, I'm getting ready to go, go back to the doctor. They're all, they're all tracking all this. My doctor and you know, they're getting ready to do what, what they got to do, I don't know, tests and all that. So like it just. I've had this feeling in my body ever since then and, and like I'm not, I'm. I'm not scared. For me, like if something happens, if I get cancer, who knows what could happen and I don't make it. Like, it sucks. But like I'm terrified for my kids. Yeah, like Andy, I'm terrified for my kids. Like my 13 year old boy, like he has a stepfather, awesome guy, like just a solid man in his life. But my two younger kids, my 4 year old, my 6 year old, like they don't have a, you know, awesome stepdad who would do anything for them. You know, they have me. And like, I'm sorry. And like I'm terrified for them. I don't know what's going to happen because people are dying from this. Like they're getting cancer.

[B]

And so I was going to say, have you talked to anybody else who has had either a similar symptom or other people that were exposed? Like, what are they doing?

[A]

So a lot of the people that were there that are still in the guard are afraid to like say anything because you know why they're in the guard. Like they don't want to coming back to them professionally. Me, like, I'm out of the guard. Yeah, I don't give a. I don't care. I'll talk about it. This all ties back into like those people that were really good to me in that small town is like these people, you know, these small town people that like, they deserve answers. These people got screwed over so bad. Like they got checks for, you know, whatever, 20,000 or whatever the. But what's that gonna do?

[B]

I wonder how they come up with that number.

[A]

Me too. Because yeah, I've.

[B]

I mean I've watched. My wife is horrified by the documentaries that I like to watch because not a single one of them is about anything good.

[A]

And those are the good ones.

[B]

I like to watch crime ones. And I tell her, I'm like, I have to get on this case. She's like, that was solved 10 years. I'm like, yeah, but not by me. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the guy's dead. And I'm like, is he, though?

[A]

That's funny. Yeah. Do you ever watch those, like, Cold Case?

[B]

You know, I can't get into the Cold Case one. I like like the Jeffrey Dahmer stuff.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But in a couple of them I watch it, they start talking about settlements.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it seems to be that to a lot of large corporations. Well, maybe that's not correct to say to some corporations. Today's episode is brought to you by me, Andy. Yes. Today I get to do an ad read for something for myself. And here it is. I wrote a book. It's called Drown Proof. It comes out six days from when this episode releases. And I am trying to do everything possible to make this book successful. Not because I care about any of the lists or a monetary gain that could come from that, but a lot of people put their name on this book with me, and a lot of people have supported me behind the scenes, and I want to do everything that I possibly can to make it successful. Now I said, I don't care about the lists. And those are true. The one list, though, that seems to be the most prestigious is the one that I am the most unlikely to make because they feel that I do not align with them from a politics or moral perspective, and that is the New York Times. It is not a sales list. It is an editorial list. So they get to pick. And the only way that I have a chance at it is to be undeniable. How do you become undeniable for them? You sell enough copies that they can't ignore you. And when it comes to that list, hardcovers like this one right here are what they count the most of. So I would humbly ask if you have gotten anything out of this podcast since its inception, please do me a favor. Head over to Amazon or Barnes and Noble, whatever it may be, and pick up a hard copy or every pre sale counts, plus the first week after the book comes out. And that is all that I can ask. I hope this book is meaningful. I hope that it's helpful, and I hope it finds its way into as many people's hands as possible. For those of you who economically can't make a purchase right now, I totally understand. Please do me a favor and help me spread the word. The goal is to be undeniable. I want to force them to put me on that list. Back to the show at the end of the day, we are a mathematical formula. What is the likelihood of being sued by the number of people multiplied by the likely payout versus insurance premiums? Insurance payout. And that's how they come down to. Isn't that it seems the check that these people would be given and let's say they're getting 20 grand and their life is stripped of a decade and a half.

[A]

Absolutely. And I mean what are they going to do with these properties that are like covered in.

[B]

Well, it depends. First off, are they even honest about

[A]

what the train or the train people are?

[B]

That's what I'm saying. Have they come out and openly talked about A, what is happening there or B, the damage that has caused the long term effects?

[A]

Yeah, somewhat. But nobody's going to admit. They're not going to admit how.

[B]

Yeah, because they don't want the liability.

[A]

They don't want the liability. Yeah. And some of these people, these small town people, like the people that adopted me, like they're all good people just trying to get by and like now their entire life is just uprooted. I mean a lot of these people can't afford to move. Yeah. You know, and so you were saying

[B]

when you reached out over email. I didn't, I didn't catch it when Joe was talking about this. But you also said the Vice president, Rogan. Rogan was. Yeah. But didn't you say Vance as well? Vp, he's got his. Yeah, I got involved in this as well.

[A]

Oh yeah, he took an interest for sure. And rightfully so. I mean like there were a lot of people that took an interest in this that don't know, like the things, didn't see the things I saw, you know, the things that I know.

[B]

Did Joe just happen to see it on the news and he talked about it.

[A]

I mean it went national, it went international actually. I mean, but yeah, I remember watching, you know, his show and they were talking about him like, dude, I saw this. I was there like, yeah, what did

[B]

Vance say about it?

[A]

I know he was pretty upset about it. I think actually Trump just wrote the. Trump, not Trump, but the Trump administration just wrote a check to these people, to the, the Village or the town. I think it was like 10 million bucks, which is something. But it's not, you know, gonna fix these people's lives. But I remember they were just really disappointed that from my experience, this is my opinion, the objective of this, these, these people was to get the tracks back up, get the train running of the train people quick as possible. It's money, everything's Money. So I think they wanted to get everything cleaned up and, you know, going again, you don't have trains moving, you know, you lose money.

[B]

I hope that if those people did get checks, that if they cash them, they didn't lose their ability to hold people accountable in the process.

[A]

Well, they would have. They would have signed. I didn't sign anything. I'll talk, I'll. I'll talk about all, you know. Yeah, I don't care.

[B]

And that's what sucks. Right. Because depending on who you are, there's a number of a dollar amount that might get you like, you know what this amazing impact in my life now. And you don't even know what you might be signing away in the future.

[A]

Who knows if I'm, if I'm. If I get cancer next year, you know. Yeah. Who knows? My kids, they're screwed, you know.

[B]

Well, are they doing additional screening on you and other people that have been exposed to this?

[A]

So. No. Well, not through the VA anyhow, or, you know, through private doctors. The. Cuz it's like, it's. This isn't. Hasn't really. There hasn't been a train derailment like this to this level. I mean, and it's too soon to know the actual, like all the effects, I guess. But I do know people were getting brain cancer.

[B]

And how long ago was this, by the way?

[A]

This was 2013. 2023.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So three years ago, my one friend that was there or that lived in the town, his dog died. Just like out of nowhere, his dog died and they wrote him a check to shut him up. Yeah, 20. 20 something. Thousand.

[B]

I mean, I want to tell people not to take that check, but I'm in no place to tell anybody how to live their life.

[A]

You can.

[B]

If you cash that thing, you might be lose it. You might be giving away more than you realize.

[A]

Yeah. You know what? And like I said, I'm here for the people that don't have a voice. Like, I was there. I was on the front lines of this stuff. Of all the things I've seen in the military, throughout my time in the military, some of those, you know, graphic things that disturbed me, I would say this is up there. I was just so disturbed by this.

[B]

How long did they keep the town out of this area?

[A]

How long what?

[B]

How long did they keep the people who lived here out of this area? Because I mean, even just looking at this. Sure. You put the fire out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. You got a little bit of what I'm going to call a cleanup project.

[A]

Yeah. A Little bit, yeah.

[B]

And I don't know how you clean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Things like this other. I mean, we're talking like massive vehicles, cranes and stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know how long it was?

[A]

That's. I think that's the fire chief or. I think that was a. Holy cow.

[B]

That is an amazing image.

[A]

I'm telling you. I saw this with my own eyes. And being as close as we were

[B]

to this, like, oh, yeah, this probably does nothing to justice of. In your own eyes.

[A]

Oh. I mean, I wish I could. Just being there and tasting those chemicals and the repercussions, like. Or, you know, the aftermath of this, I just. Like, there's things happening in me that I can't explain. Like, that guy was awesome. The fire chief.

[B]

How do. How could you even tell he's the fire chief?

[A]

Has nothing to do with nothing. Mustach. Yeah.

[B]

It's one of the stereotypes.

[A]

Signature.

[B]

Oh, yeah, true.

[A]

I'll see people out in public with a clean haircut. You know, I'm like, I know what he does. Okay, so liver problem, all that stuff. Like, I feel that now. Like, like I said, when you go

[B]

get checked, what do they tell you? Like, are they doing blood draws? How are they trying to assess what's going on?

[A]

So what happened was recently it's been getting a lot worse. And that's when I, like, I called my doctor again and said, hey, like, I really need to get seen. She no longer works where she works. So last week they said, hey, we're gonna set you up with a new doctor, one that specializes in this kind of stuff and some other urology, I think it is. Yeah.

[B]

Who's paying for all this?

[A]

Va. Okay, so. Yeah. Yeah. So originally, they. They should have paid my medical bills. They didn't. I ended up paying them some of the ones I had from the ER and stuff. But you would think they would have reached out to, hey, maybe I'll. Maybe we'll pay your bills. But anyway, your medical bills. But whatever. So, you know, all this stuff happened. Like, I haven't been right since, and I wouldn't lie to you. Like, this has truly affected my. Yeah. Physically. And not even that. Just, like, mentally. Like, if I'm in my patrol car and, like, I drink a coffee or something, like, I have to go pee all the time, and I don't know what it is. It's. It's something down there. Yeah.

[B]

And obviously something. This is something that you weren't experiencing before.

[A]

Oh, not at all.

[B]

Right. Yeah. So again, I mean, I don't. Causality Is a. But it. I mean, and I'm also not Sherlock Holmes, but I can kind of draw some breadcrumbs here.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. And like, this was. I don't know, it was just. It was just. It was bad.

[B]

What?

[A]

Memory loss. I mean, these guys just the other day or this morning or yesterday asked me the most simple thing or, you know, my wife does it too. Like, I just cannot remember simple things. Yeah, like things that. How could you forget something like that?

[B]

What is the company the. And by that I mean the company that was either managing or facilitating the train. What have they said? Like, everything's good, we did cleanup. Like, what's their stance on this?

[A]

They know that they screwed up. They know how bad this was. But, you know, again, they're paying people off, maybe not to talk.

[B]

Michael, can you look up the name of the train company?

[A]

I think it's North Oak. Yeah.

[B]

Can you then also do some Google searching to see if you can find where. Where they're at on this? Like, have they paid out? Has there been a loss?

[A]

Yeah, there was a 600 million dollar settlement.

[B]

To who, though?

[A]

I think it was anybody who was in the area could go get a piece of that money.

[B]

Yeah, but 20 grand times, that's a lot to get to 600 million.

[A]

Yeah, well, I think part of it was like, I don't know, maybe testing or something. I don't know. Yeah.

[B]

604 has declined to hear a challenge. Yeah, suck on that one. Class action settlement between Norfolk Southern and the residents and businesses affected by the February 2023. So, yeah, it's about three years ago, East Palestine, Ohio. Trained or. The decision leaves in place the 2024 settlement for individuals within 20 miles of the site, covering property, businesses and personal injury claims. So are you. You can be a part of this because. Well, actually resident. Because you just happen to be there. Right.

[A]

So there were a lot of first responders getting. They were writing checks to first responders. Me. However, they never told any of us about this. So, like, yeah, my chain of command and all that. None of us knew about this. When I finally found out, I was like, hey, let me call these guys. Because, like, I'm affected. I think I missed it by like two months and they basically told me to screw off. You know, it was a two year window, which is like, you know, if you either do the right thing, you know, or you would think, you know, two months it wouldn't have mattered, you know, on something like this. But. All right, you know, you think they would have been Decent about it. Yeah. But, yeah, if you think about it like this, like $20,000 to somebody living in small town America, you know, barely getting by, 20 grand's a lot of money.

[B]

Yes. I mean, 20 grand is a lot of money, regardless of who you are.

[A]

Yeah, regardless. But, you know, somebody trying to get by, you know, a quick 20,000 is probably something they haven't seen in long, you know, if ever, of course they're going to take it.

[B]

A federal judge ruled that Norfolk Southern alone is responsible for the cleanup costs, rejecting attempts to shift liability to the manufacturers of the chemicals or owners of the rail cars. Oh, so they were obviously just leasing space or renting space. Yeah, man. I mean, what a nightmare.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, there was. There's so many things that, like, I reached out a bunch of. A bunch of the troops that were there and they sent me. I mean, things that, like, if. If the. If people knew about these things, like, they would just be disgusted. I mean, one of the. This young girl, 18, 19, in the Guard, she got really sick, too. Her eyes were burning so bad and she said she couldn't see. She lost her vision for a little while. She was having a hard time seeing things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, clearly. Anyway, you know, stuff like that. And I don't know, just the fact that, like, did we actually need to be there? We didn't do anything that law enforcement didn't. Didn't, you know, didn't do. We were basically standing with a, you know, cop car the whole time. Yeah, yeah. I don't mind serving my country, obviously, but like, things like this, like, like, how's this gonna affect me? Like, I'm gonna die serving my country. I'm gonna die like, you know, doing something.

[B]

Yeah. They may not have known necessarily exactly what to do with you guys. I'm sure they got a call before knowing. I mean, I would imagine that the National Guard got activated before they knew the contents of what was inside of the train.

[A]

So. Actually, I think no, no, they knew right away.

[B]

Then how could they not send you guys out there in CBR gear?

[A]

That's. That's part of my. My. My problem here is. Yeah, they had chemical battalions that they could have sent out there. They sent us there with, you know, ill equipped. Yeah, like, we didn't have anything. Half of us had pro masks or gas masks. But, like, like I said, they told us not to. Not to wear them. And like, there was just so many things here that, like, were just so messed up about it. I mean, the aftermath, you know, what

[B]

would you like to see fixed or changed.

[A]

Honestly, like those people in that town, like they deserve, you know, they should be taken care of. It wasn't their fault. Yeah, they're hard working people getting by, you know, barely getting by.

[B]

You know, I feel like Norfolk Southern would say, well we did take care of them. What's the saying? He's paying for East Palestine, Ohio train to Ramlet cleanup and recover with costs exceeding 1 billion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The company agreed to 310 million federal settlement with EPA and DOJ for cleanup, environmental monitoring and health services. I don't necessarily know what that means on the health services side, but I would hope that's money that's put aside that could specifically deal with the people who are put in your position.

[A]

Yeah, so I know that a lot of people there, they got, you know, they got their little, their checks. Their little checks, I guess, you know, compared to, you know, billions of dollars, you know, like I said, offering somebody a check for 10, 20,000, you know, who probably have never seen that money, they're going to take it, of course, you know, but like.

[B]

And this is where this stuff gets fascinating. So Michael just pulled up something here.

[A]

What's up?

[B]

Norfolk Southern has actively lobbied to weaken the bipartisan Railway safety act of 2023, which I'm going to assume. Michael, this came in after the. Okay, otherwise that's really odd timing. Proposed. Oh yeah, proposed following the East Palestine Ohio disaster. Probably should just finish the sentence and then it'll, you know, it all comes together. If you actually read it all together.

[A]

Yeah, I think Vice president Vance actually. Yeah, I think this might have been his or he did something, some kind of act.

[B]

The company, along with other rail industry actors has spent millions to fight regulations on train length inspections and mandatory two person crews. Key details on lobbying efforts targeting legislation. Has lobbied against the safety act itself which is aimed to improve hazardous material safety and detection technology. The company significantly increases lobbying expenditures following the Feb. 2023 train to arrive, spending 1.9 million in Washington in just six months. Same thing, what we just mentioned, the two person cruise. Backdoor pressure reports indicate the company has worked behind closed doors to eliminate core safety protections in proposed legislation. Legislation. Even after public scrutiny, the company continued to push against new regulations, including hiring new firms to lobby during congressional scrutiny and merger reviews. Why does it have to be like that when you pull back the curse?

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

I mean, I don't.

[A]

Sick.

[B]

I would love to see a representative from that organization explain those things while in this next breath explaining to me how they actually care about safety. Like you care about safety. You don't want to happen again. Explain to me these actions and show me how these two are intrinsically tied.

[A]

It's just, it's insanity. I.

[B]

It's money, it's profit.

[A]

Yeah, it really is. I mean, they obviously, they cared more about the, the money than the people. I mean, because like I said, these people probably got a, you know, chunk of change and then they. Yeah, it's too late. They signed their lives away.

[B]

So what are you going to do for yourself personally? Because again, I mean, I, I love the idea and the reason I wanted to have you come on. Is to bring more awareness to people that might be caught up in this. And I'm assuming that anybody in that area knows that there is money that is available.

[A]

But I think it's over with. I think there was a two year window for settlements if you want to look that up.

[B]

Michael.

[A]

Yeah, if you wanted. And there's even a phone number that, you know, some of us have called.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they basically told us that is

[B]

so crazy that they would. I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I guess. Well, part of me, I understand where that comes from. Like, you don't want to say 20 years.

[A]

Yeah. Two years, that's nothing.

[B]

Two years. I mean, maybe a little bit of middle ground somewhere in between.

[A]

Look at the effects I'm having now. Like three years later I'm starting to have some. You know, I would.

[B]

I can also see a world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where in that same mathematical formula they say, what's the likelihood? What's the long end tail for symptoms to arrive? Three to four years. Okay, cool. Let's put a two year window on this.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

I would hate to think that humans

[A]

are like that, but they are.

[B]

But you know damn well that somebody somewhere.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Is running that math and saying, what's the number we can put up here? That's not going to raise anybody's alarm, but we might end up cutting off the tail end ability for people to apply for that. What'd you find, Michael?

[A]

It Sundays, well, Google AI wasn't very helpful. All it said was you may still be able to claim. So I'm trying to.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, I called them. A couple of my buddies called them too. And they, they basically told me to screw off.

[B]

Well, here's my advice on that. Don't stop calling. Call a different number. Call somebody else. You know, you need to get a hold of too in, in issues like

[A]

this, Vice President Vance, that would probably

[B]

not be a bad idea. I have no ability to help you with that. But yeah, I don't think he's listening. I think he's got other stuff going on. Probably trying to plan how he's going to run in 2028.

[A]

Yeah, no kidding.

[B]

This is where, in my opinion, this is the role of elected officials at the local level and at the state level.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is where you start going and talking to senators and congressmen because they might not be able to do anything, but sometimes they can apply. At least this is what I want to believe. Right. And people want to believe that they can actually serve the people that elected them and apply pressure somewhere so people like yourself can actually get the answers or help that you need.

[A]

Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. I mean, it's. There's so many things that I can't do that I love hunting. Like, I love bow hunting. Sitting in a tree, obviously, you know. Yeah. Sitting in a tree with a bow. And there's things that have. It's affected me, like. I don't want to say vision, but like headaches and, you know, I can't focus like I used to and that. It took me a long time to. After those issues from. From service, like from active duty. It took me a long, long time of panic attacks, anxiety attacks, and to get, you know, like a baseline to where I was. Okay. And I was able to, you know, become a police officer and, you know, do all this stuff. It took me a long time, but now it's like I'm. I'm having issues from this stuff that like, I can't. I can't do some certain things I like to do.

[B]

Like August 2024 deadline. You've got to be shitting me.

[A]

Yeah. 20. Yeah. And so I probably called and let's say, what, two months after that and they basically told me no.

[B]

Like, although the settlement was approved In September of 2024, appeals delayed payments which are now expected to begin in early to mid-2026.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Defect cure deadline for individuals who filed claims and received notification about defects or missing information. A deadline of December 4th. So that's passed last year was said to correct those Final settlement approved. The Supreme Court rejected a final challenge to this. Okay, so the Supreme Court is holding to what it is. Yeah, well, there is a number at the bottom.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd be curious if.

[B]

And East Palestine trainsettlement.com let's just see

[A]

if one of them reach out and like, try to make this somewhat right. Not necessarily me, but like some of those people, like under me, like just. They're kids.

[B]

Nobody's going to from at least the train company is going to reach out and try to make this right.

[A]

Yeah, that's a shame.

[B]

Well, they probably have been advised by lawyers that the company itself can't do anything. I'm sure they have intermediaries that are handling this.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. Right?

[B]

They're probably going to have a law firm that's going to be the go between. In between the two.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

[B]

Connection. But what I would say is this, man, like what you've already described and the worries that you have about your kids, do not stop banging on that door and elevate this to the highest

[A]

level that you can't go as high as I need to. I ain't afraid. I'll talk. I don't care what.

[B]

How close is it starting to get where it might impact your job as a law enforcement? I'm worried about, like, what's the threshold? Is it your. Your department say you tell us, or is there a line where it gets that they're going to make the call for you?

[A]

It'd probably be me telling them, yeah, which, like, it doesn't affect me, my ability to, like. I don't know. What it affects is my ability to, like, not mentally, but, like. Like I said, physically, like. Yeah. From running hot to a call and I have to pee, like, right now.

[B]

Well, yeah, it impacts your concentration at a very minimum.

[A]

I can't just stop at somebody's house, like, hey, do you mind if I use your restroom really quick? You know, I mean, I don't know

[B]

if you know this. You're in a cop car, pop the door open and just stand there. Yeah, yeah, whiz it out.

[A]

Then I'll be on cnn.

[B]

I'm not saying do that in front of somebody's house, maybe on a deserted road.

[A]

Hey, I gotta go. I gotta go.

[B]

Yeah, just pop out of your car, like, right in front of the school. That's not what I'm saying. Right.

[A]

Like, yeah, that's funny.

[B]

There are other options.

[A]

But, yeah, like, there has been times where I've been on calls, even something serious as, like, a body. Like a dead body, and I have to go to the bathroom. Like, I have to leave the scene. Yeah. And I'm like, lead investigator on that call, you know, primary responder or, you know, first. First officer respond. And like, so it's my. It's mine. The scene's mine. Waiting on, like, a coroner or, you know, the transport company. And I'll be like, you know, I'll call somebody else. Can you Please come to the scene and like, yeah, hang out while I go.

[B]

So what's your personal line in the sand? Where are you going to again? Where's your line in the sand where you're going to call it and say, hey, this is actually negatively impacting my job and I can't do it to the ability that I want?

[A]

Well, I would say this would be a big step because, you know, I. I hope people see this. Oh. I. Not necessarily not being able to do my job, but. Yeah, I'm hoping that once I start getting, you know, answers medically. Yeah. They'll, you know, be able to help me out.

[B]

I mean, those. When. What would it take for you to go to your leadership and say, hey, oh, yeah, like, I can't. I am now worried that I'm not going to be able to do my job to my ability. Like, how close to that are you?

[A]

Um, I wouldn't say I'm close to that. Um, I mean, it's having to, like, go to the bathroom, like, it's not having to take a pee isn't, like, the end of the world, right?

[B]

Yeah, but that's where it's at right now.

[A]

Okay, good point. So if it gets worse.

[B]

Yeah, I know this is just the start and, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. It might morph into that system. The symptom might morph into a different symptom.

[A]

If it gets to the point where I'm going to embarrass my department or embarrass myself or. Or not be able to help somebody who needs help. Like, that's when I'm. I'm gonna be. I mean, that. That's. I don't know what I would do because I love. I love being there for people, you know, I love the Americans, man. Best people on earth, you know, as far as, you know, I love. I love Americans. And if I'm not able to be there for them, you know, when I need to be there, it's. It's gonna be a tough pill to swallow. You know, has.

[B]

Thinking about your mortality or having it thrown in your face just due to uncertainty changed the way that you look at parenting and how you interact with your kids.

[A]

Yeah, I would say. What. What changed that the most? Like, at family gatherings and stuff.

[B]

I.

[A]

I don't like being around kids. And the reason for that would be. I have a hard time holding kids. My children, sometimes. Yeah. But it took me a long time. And the reason that is. There was an incident where I was in the military, a father and his. His son, you know, they were killed. And I was. I was young, and I. I didn't necessarily know what to do medically, and they were. The medics were taking care of our guys, and I was there with this kid, and I'm holding this kid. And it didn't dawn on me, like I said, I'm not ashamed to admit, you know, at the time, I froze. I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to say I froze, but I didn't know what to do. And this kid ended up dying. So what I did was I kind of just held this kid, you know, the last thing his father saw and, you know, he probably saw was the u. S. Military, you know, responsible for their lives.

[B]

Responsible, yes. But think about what you were doing in those final moments.

[A]

Yeah, well, I don't want to go correct. Yeah. I don't want to go into too much detail about that. That one's a pretty tough one. But, you know, holding this kid and then, you know, I end up with three sons myself. So there was a long time where it was. It was really hard to, like, hold my kids, you know, because I just. You know, there's this dead kid there. You know, I would see him. So, like, family gatherings and stuff. Like, I kind of just try to stay away from kids still. Yeah.

[B]

You talking to anybody about this?

[A]

Yeah, I talked to Rob. I talked to Mike about it.

[B]

No, I mean, a professional.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Counseling. Yeah. Okay. But, like, you know, stuff like that, it's just. That's really what affected me more so than this, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know where this is gonna go, like you said. But you think after I. I was finally able to get to a point after all that happened, where I was like. I was. I was okay, you know, with, like, I could wrestle with my kids and do all this, and, like. But then now it's like I got this whole. The whole trauma of this stuff, you know, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just affecting so many aspects of my life, you know, medically. And.

[B]

So what are you focusing on? Because the trauma aspect in the unknown, you can't control. So what are you trying to focus on? To give yourself some level of a true north on your compass right now.

[A]

So I like doing outdoor stuff. My kids. I don't want to say I spoil my kids, but I kind of do.

[B]

We all kind of.

[A]

Yeah. Four wheelers.

[B]

And then we tell them that we're not going. But they deserve it.

[A]

Yeah, they deserve it. Yeah.

[B]

Even. It's like, I didn't get this, so.

[A]

Yeah. Right. But you know what? My, My. Their mothers, two different mothers. They will never be able to say I'm a bad father because I take care of my kids. You know, I'm always there for them. But we do that stuff. I love hunting. I almost got this trophy buck. I mean, I was so close. I was watching it. I sent it, pictured both of them. You know, it'd be on camera, this huge buck. I mean, the two days before season ended, we're allowed to have hunt half an hour after sun sunset in Ohio. And I saw it maybe 100 yards out, and it was just kind of walking and walking, but it was too dark. And that was like my chance. But like I said, I had to follow the. Follow the law. Yep. So, yeah, I love hunting. Outdoor stuff. I play guitar. I love country music, play country music. My friend Joe Bova, him and I, you know, we write, write music and country music. You know, we play out and stuff. And my family, my wife, we. I really, truly have a good life, especially where I came from.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There have been so many people in my life. SWAT Commander Joe, my current boss, these guys. So many people in my life that, like, didn't need to be there for me, but they were there. Like, they just led me on the right. You know what I mean? Led me in the right path through my career, my. My childhood, you know, even now. Like, there's people in my life that just. They have such good intentions and like, they're genuine people. Like, where would I be without them people, you know? Yeah. It's crazy.

[B]

What, what are you doing to make sure? Let's. I mean, I don't often like to focus on worst case scenario, but you have to take a look at it. Of course, you have a bunch of unknown in front of you, so we can probably find a middle ground.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I don't have to say it's worst case scenario, but what are you focusing on to make sure? How old are your kids now?

[A]

4, 6 and 13.

[B]

Okay. That's a broad straw.

[A]

Boys, man, they're cool. Cool kids.

[B]

I mean, I think for me, in times of uncertainty, what I can do is I can focus on things that I can control. In this one, I don't want to speak for you, but it sounds like you want to leave a legacy of some kind for your kids. And I don't know if you're thinking about that at all, but I would throw back at your court and say that is definitely one thing that you can control and start focusing on. And that can be everything. I mean, honestly, that's one of the cool things about podcasts. It's one of the reasons why I like having shows with my dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not from a legacy perspective, but it's a time capsule because. Yeah, he's 142, you know, probably will make it to 143.

[A]

But yeah.

[B]

You know, in the lap of life.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

He's past halfway safe to say.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

And the ability to be able to look quick too. Yeah. But the ability to be able to look back, you know, and hear that voice. I don't have anything like that with. With my mom. I have no ability to reach back and. And view an experience or hear her voice again.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I wish I would have.

[A]

How was that? How did that with your mother? What cancer story about. Oh, no way.

[B]

Yeah. Second time she was a survivor. She outlived everybody in her cancer survivor group. And then it. I don't know how much you know about cancer. As you're coming through the treatments, it's. They're kind of on top of you. And then it's like every six months, screening, every year, screening, every two years, screening. a certain point they're like, dude, you're

[A]

good or you're bad.

[B]

Well, I mean, maybe just if you're coming from that, just keep getting screened every once in a while. Because it metastasized. It was a cervical cancer that metastasized into her lungs.

[A]

Oh my goodness.

[B]

Survivability rate very, very low. I used to mistakenly say it was non smokers lung cancer, but my sister corrected it.

[A]

But you know, were they Christian or was she a Christian, your mother? Because you are, aren't you?

[B]

I.

[A]

Not yet.

[B]

At best would say I'm agnostic.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I do not know. I totally support people having any level of faith that they want to. I'm envious of the people that can have faith, but I can't fake it. So I don't know if my mom would have considered herself to be a Christian. I actually she took us to Sunday school when we were younger.

[A]

Oh yeah. Nice.

[B]

But guess what? That doesn't mean shit when it comes to.

[A]

I don't go to church. I'm saved. Yeah, I have a relationship with Jesus, but I don't go to church.

[B]

I don't think you have to.

[A]

I think my job is my church.

[B]

Yeah. And I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on time spent in a place as if it's purifying and they. It's like, oh yeah. Because. But on the other 6 days and 23 hours. I could be a total douche.

[A]

Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I'm no saying, believe me, I don't

[B]

think you have to be. I think that's one of the tenets of religion. I don't know where she was with her faith when she passed.

[A]

Well, you know, that's the big thing in my opinion about, you know, Christianity is like Jesus. I mean, he has grace.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't want to get too, you know, spiritual or anything, but you feel. Yeah.

[B]

Don't get me wrong, man. Like I am. I am envious of people that have that level of faith. I just refuse to say that I do when I don't because I don't want to fake it. And what I have landed on saying is maybe it's just not my time.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, do you. In my honest opinion, like, I've seen how things work out in my life. I shouldn't be where I am. I mean, I have a beautiful wife, successful.

[B]

You're right where you should be.

[A]

Or maybe I'm where I should be. But the chances likeness of where I am in my life, from where I came from. There were so many, like I said, so many people that just gave me that little nudge or gave me a chance. My SWAT commander, you know, just so many people. But anyway, I'm convinced, you know, Jesus is real. Just the things he's done for me, you know.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

I lost a brother from an overdose, 2018. So coming from, you know, as a police officer seeing, you know, rushing out of work to go to the hospital where my brother is, you know, laying on a bed dying. So apparently there was like one little spot of his brain working.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But seeing my brother, like, it was like an exorcist on a hospital. But crazy, like the way he was moving. Yeah. So apparently there was one little piece of his brain working that he was just like freaking out. But he was obviously brain dead.

[B]

But yeah, like. Well, you've been around enough. People at the end, they move more than people would expect.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The electrical system.

[A]

That's what it was. It was. Yeah.

[B]

Unless you. It's the play when I say this. Unless you completely shut off the electrical system. There are often.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Inputs.

[A]

There are. It's. It's weird. It's such.

[B]

What did he overdose from?

[A]

Fentanyl. You know, he. He struggled and I had helped him get out of jail, which sucks sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I called the prosecutor's office and I spoke to them and they said, I'll tell You what we'll do if he can pay this fine? We'll, we'll let, you know, let him out. And like, I kind of. I hold responsibility in a way because, like, him and I went. We were on bad terms. He's doing drugs. I'm a cop.

[B]

Like, it's tough.

[A]

Yeah. Like high school quarterback. Like just athlete of all athletes. He was so good at everything. So anyway, we kind of went two separate ways before he passed. I got him out of jail, I picked him up and we. We sat in the car and him and I talked and.

[B]

Cop car.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

I was going to say. Did you put him.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I let him. I let him drive.

[B]

Like, listen, we're going to sit in the car, but you're in the back.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Sorry, dude. That's funny. So, yeah, we had a good conversation. We, we. We made up and I'm so glad him and I got to make up and, you know, we laughed and you know, he end up passing away later. But. Yeah. Like, honestly, I don't remember where I was going with that either.

[B]

Well, let me throw this out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I have situations in my life where I, I feel. I think it's a self imposed sense of guilt. So I'll give you another optic on this. Had you not done that for your brother, which he probably still was going to use drugs anyway.

[A]

He would have. Yeah.

[B]

And he ended up dying. You might regret for the rest of your life that. That you didn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Probably. No painless way to walk through that for.

[A]

Thank you, Andy. I got that last time with them to make up, you know. Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

[B]

You know what I mean, though? It's like, there's no. Life isn't about perfection, man. It's about doing the best you can.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Honestly though, like, it's been a ride, but I'm beyond happy with my life. Other than this, like these little things like this, like where I am in my life now, I just, you know, that's like I said, I know Jesus. I know Jesus is real. Like, yeah, he led me here.

[B]

And we live in a world where you don't have to wonder if you want to, that your kids have things to remember you by. If you're uncertain about your future, as weird as this sounds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't have to go on podcasts, but did you could pick up a GoPro or a laptop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you could have any conversation you want to with your kids and save it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that might help You a little bit with the worrisome nature of the unknown. Because fear of the unknown, it sucks, man. Yeah. I'm just saying it's, you know, to mean for legacy to make sure that you have that or start trending in a direction where you become even more worried. Man. You could live. We live in a world where you could live, leave. I mean, I guess you could like writing a letter with a. Yeah. Quill back in the old days or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They used to do it under and under the lantern. But I. There's things you could do.

[A]

Yeah, no, I have, like. I have some expensive, like, Gibson custom shop guitars. Like, you know, I have an old truck that, you know, these are like American things that. Yeah. Like, I have a lot of pride in my country, you know, things that I plan on my children having someday. And like, you know, watching my sons, like, watch me play guitar or work on my truck, you know, my other son helping me, like, they just. They love it. It's so special. And I take pictures and my oldest son's like, why are you always taking pictures? Yeah. Like, I promise you will thank me one day.

[B]

You know, leave some stuff or record some stuff with your voice too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's weird to say. Well, maybe it's not weird to say. Maybe it's totally natural. I wish I could hear my mom's voice again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know how. I don't know if I would handle it well because maybe it would be a little bit too much. But I don't even have the option.

[A]

No. Like voicemails or recordings or anything. I like phone messages.

[B]

Switching phones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A few years after she died, I accidentally deleted them. No, I accidentally found the last one that I had from her and it wasn't labeled properly. I'm like, what is this? And I hit it. And it was her voice. That one jarred me. Mostly because I didn't know what was coming. But in the process of moving through phones over the time, I don't have anything left as a recording.

[A]

That's awful.

[B]

It is. But you have the ability to make sure that never happens with your own kids. You can leave that legacy and you can make sure again. Let's. I mean, again. So now we're like absolute worst case scenario. Let's go on the other side. Shit's all gonna work itself out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you'll still never regret having done those things. Take five minutes per day, dude. Pull your phone out and tell your kids, obviously they're not there. Try not to do it through tears. Cause it's tough.

[A]

Having a tough time thinking about it, talking about it.

[B]

Talk to him every day, man. Yeah, talk to him every day.

[A]

Yeah, I try to. Yeah.

[B]

And I mean on the phone, too, like. Like record a video of yourself five minutes every day just telling them something that you appreciate about them and who they are. Because if it does go, absolute worst case scenario, man, they will cherish those things for the rest of their life.

[A]

Absolutely. My two youngest are. I mean, they're autistic. They're high functioning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they're, you know, they understand. They know what's going on. But. Yeah, they just have a hard time talking sometimes. But I took my oldest son and we picked him up there today, and I think this was one of the top five moments of my life, watching my youngest son, actually. I just told my. My other son, you know, how special this was to me. But he opens the door and he says, oh, my God, my son, I don't want to say his name is here. And he lit up to see my oldest son. And that was hands down, I mean, top five moments of my life, watching him screaming, you know, my other son's name. So excited to see him.

[B]

That's a great thing, man.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

Do you have any relationship at all with your biological parents?

[A]

Yeah, kind of. I'll see them every now and then. Yeah.

[B]

Hopefully not in a professional capacity.

[A]

I'm waiting on the day. No, I. I choose not to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Out of respect to my parents, you know, my adopted parents.

[B]

Have you forgiven your biological.

[A]

I have forgiven. It was hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They. They did the worst thing you could do to children. They gave them away, you know, parents sold them.

[B]

Parents aren't perfect, man.

[A]

But things like that, I mean.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, don't get me wrong. Yeah. I'm not excusing anybody's behavior.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I remember I had an opposite upbringing of yours and even my own self. Like, when you're first.

[A]

Why don't you tell me more about it? No, I'm kidding.

[B]

It was down the middle. Trust me, it wasn't like a grand slam. It's like right down the middle, like we're hitting. Yeah, it was nice. I mean, if we're being honest. But it's like hitting doubles all day long. Right. Like, we're not talking, like grand slams. I wasn't flying to Turks and Caicos in a Gulf stream. Not that I actually. But you were loved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I remember when I was young though, too. I thought my parents were perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they were the. They were the Centers of my universe. And now that I'm a parent myself, I have a lot more grace for my parents. That's the point I'm getting to.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. And it doesn't, trust me, your parents behavior. I'm not trying to excuse that at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it is interesting when you become a parent yourself, you're like, oh, this was just two people walking around in flesh suits doing the best.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. My. Both their mothers. I was married to the two younger ones. Mother.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I wasn't married to my first. But again, great relationships. I mean, well, I mean, if you give one of them the house and everything else, they tend to like you a little more. But not always. Well, that's true. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I, I learned this about fathers going through like divorces and you know, that kind of stuff. Custody. If you're there for your kids, you do the best you can to be there for your kids. Like no one can take that from you. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they might be able to take your visitation temporarily or they may be able to make accusations and, you know, stop, you know, certain court proceedings or just, you know, we know how women can be, we know how men can be, whatever. But I've learned that I was always there for my kids. I always made an effort to see them. And I have great relationship with both of the moms because of that. You know, I did everything I could to be there for my kids.

[B]

That's good to hear, man.

[A]

Yeah. They couldn't take it from me. Yeah.

[B]

The relationship with the other parents, I would say, or having a good one after going through that thing, I would say is more abnormal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than normal. It seems like contentious, like amicable, but contentious. Seems to be normal. Or being chased with a knife, you know.

[A]

Yeah, right. Yeah. It's a. Yikes. No. Yeah. Like I said, I've so many good people in my life and just that had grace, you know what I mean? Yeah. That's one of the reasons I, I'm a Christian, you know, I'm a Christian, I believe in Jesus because so many loving people I've. I've brushed elbows with and I don't know, I have a lot of good things going on.

[B]

You know, I'm glad that you can still focus that on that with all the unknowns that are going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where would you want to. Where would you want to direct the attention from us sitting down today towards. Do you want to people have people educate themselves more about what happened? Would you want somebody in Public office to pay more attention to what's going on. Perhaps the first responders and DoD component of this. What would your goal be?

[A]

I want.

[B]

Or hope, I should say.

[A]

Yeah, right. The hope. I just. I feel like these people, I mean, they were just. No pun intended. Railroaded.

[B]

Yeah. You know, they were too soon.

[A]

Too soon. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, residents.

[B]

It's never too soon.

[A]

Yeah. I'm on your side. Yeah, no, I. I think they need. They need to be taken care of. The same people, the same type of people that took care of me, you know, when I was adopted. Like, you know, they need to be taken care of the same kind of people, you know.

[B]

Yeah. Money isn't necessarily equating to taking care of people.

[A]

Yeah, it's not necessarily money. Just. I don't know. They. They were screwed in so many ways. And like, even these troops, like, they were screwed over too, with their health. And I will literally talk to anybody that wants to. Wants to hear about it. I mean, there's other things I haven't told you about, you know, that have happened, that are disturbing. Like, I'll talk. I don't care what else has happened. I have a list on my phone from a bunch of people, things people sent me. There's something to do with, like, they made it for the Guardsman. I think they made it like a workers comp claim because it was like state orders or something.

[B]

I do not know how any of that stuff works.

[A]

I still don't. Yeah, it was super weird. So they couldn't file for, like, benefits or something through the va like, being affected by this. I don't know. Because. Because they're taking care of me, or at least they will. Yeah, but there was something like. It was workers comp. So they couldn't claim something or, I

[B]

don't know, perhaps guardrail them from being able to access other programs. Maybe how they categorized it.

[A]

Like I said, it's on my phone. I don't quite remember exactly. Exactly what that. That issue was, but a lot of people complaining about their health, like burning skin, this, that. I'm like, it's been three years and people are still like, suffering.

[B]

Just villagers, I would say speak up for those people out there listening. If you're like, if you're in the DOD and you were worried about coming forward after being exposed to a chemical, like, don't necessarily. Well, I mean, if you want to whistleblower, go ahead. I don't know the mechanisms to do that, but address it with your chain of command.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As a first step. As you should if you're in the military. And if they are not open to that, then you can start talking about things outside of that where you can get additional help.

[A]

How do you feel about, like, I guess we've all seen like our co workers or our management do something, you know, shady kind of like this. Like some of them didn't, you know, I don't, didn't pull their weight. I mean, you're okay with just whistleblowing? No. You know, I mean, how do you feel about all that? I mean, doing the right things, doing

[B]

the right thing and whistleblowing. The.

[A]

If you're still in active service. I mean, you know, something like this,

[B]

I mean, it exists for a reason.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And not an expert in this by any stretch, but from my understanding, it is an ability for somebody who doesn't feel safe or protected to go to their chain of command, to go outside of it. Right. If they feel like that, they would be punished by their chain of command for even addressing it. I would always say in a perfect world, which this doesn't exist, but the appropriate procedure would be you have a supportive chain of command that can be receptive to anything. So you would go to them with what you have experienced and what you're feeling, they will address it. Not everybody lives in that world. And you know, and I don't necessarily know why somebody in the National Guard would try to shut down anybody underneath them getting the care that they need, especially if it's associated with an activation. But. Yeah, I mean, if you have, if you've watched other people try that and they're punitively crushed, I think that's exactly why something would exist like that would exist. But if that's not the case and you don't feel that way, I think your first step should be to try to address. With the chain of command. Right. You have to read the terrain in front of you. So it's tough because I'm not in any of those situations. I have no problem with whistleblowing though, as long as it. You know what I mean? But like also try to address it to the channels. It exists. It shouldn't always be the first step.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it should always be an option available if you find yourself in one of those situations.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I, like I said, I'll talk. I don't care. Yeah. What are they gonna come after me? I don't.

[B]

They might, but I don't know necessarily what they would say. More than anything, I want you to make sure you get like, health.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And get healthy.

[A]

Yeah, I'm working on it now. Like I said, they called me the other day to tell me the doctor left. So I gotta, you know. Yeah, I have a new doctor, apparently.

[B]

Well, hopefully the records are at least Passover, you know, I mean they can.

[A]

Yeah. Where you left off. Yeah.

[B]

What do you want to close it out with, man? What do you want, what do you want people to know?

[A]

I don't know. I guess like there's. There's people out there that care. I guess, like, I mean this is all this went all the way up to President of the United States. I mean there's people that care and I, I guess like, I don't know. Those people that saved my life, you know, growing up are like, I feel like are the same kind of people. And like that's why I feel compelled to, you know. Yeah.

[B]

To speak up.

[A]

Speak up. Yeah. I just, I just want to call accountability. I guess these people, they need to be taken more, you know, better care of.

[B]

Yeah. What sucks is that the train companies can just say, yeah, we did take care of them. We spent a million dollars on that. And like I said, you know, just because you put a monetary amount on a check doesn't necessarily mean. Especially if they're still living in exactly the same place.

[A]

So I mean, do you think they should be paying their medical bills and all that, you know, separate from a check?

[B]

Man, I'm so far outside of knowledge

[A]

when it comes to stuff.

[B]

You might as well ask me why the space shuttle doesn't explode when it takes off. Sometimes I just think a lot of times it's more than money. I mean, people, especially in a litigious society, I think a lot of that, the tail end of that is people probably looking for a check. But a check doesn't solve everything. I mean, I don't understand any of the chemicals that spilled there, but I bet you that they have a long tail on how long that they are in place for. I mean, to me, let's say that it has long term consequences. To me, true accountability from the train organization. Whoever a court decided was accountable. Be like, you lift and shift those people and you make sure that their lives aren't even more negatively impacted. And then you put a check on top of that as well too. Right. So I guess that goes to all come down to money. But it's what you do with the money.

[A]

Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. I don't know. It's crazy. Crazy world.

[B]

It is. Stay on top of your medical issues, if you will.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

For your Kids, got something worry before you leave.

[A]

Oh, I got something for you too in the car.

[B]

Yeah, well, your car is not here, is it?

[A]

Oh, it's across the street.

[B]

That's for you.

[A]

No way.

[B]

You two don't get anything. Yep.

[A]

I was literally telling them I want to stop, and

[B]

this is their redacted knife.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Hopefully, you guys, if you were a Carry on only getting here, I will mail it to you. And by that, I mean Michael does that.

[A]

Well, but we may or may not brought.

[B]

Oh, you're gonna have to check anyway. Yeah.

[A]

So. Yeah. Yeah, we brought some protection.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, man, that's incredible.

[B]

Don't cut your hand. There they go. I've had a couple people who haven't been able to figure out how to get a knife out of the sheath, and I just wonder what they did when they were children, you know?

[A]

Yeah. This is incredible. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. He's got the podcast logo laser etched on there. So you are good to go.

[A]

Man, that is incredible. Wow.

[B]

Talk to me about plans while you're in Montana, because I know you guys. How long are you guys here for?

[A]

A few days. We all took off work, and the

[B]

mountains are a good reset.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Topography here not the same where you're from.

[A]

I was in Wyoming last summer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We did the rodeo. Three nights. We did, you know, hiking, all that stuff. A lot of. We ride horses back home. We love horses.

[B]

And so you guys talked about Glacier. What else you got planned?

[A]

Glacier? I would like to go to Yellowstone. How far is that from here? A few hours, Michael. Yeah, it's pretty far. It's probably a few hours. Five or six hours. Five or six? I mean, that's.

[B]

Yeah, Maybe eight. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's awful.

[B]

Glacier is going to give you a.

[A]

That's incredible. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Glacier is going to give you about the same stuff as Yellowstone.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. What about wildlife? What do you got around here other than.

[B]

We got some stuff.

[A]

Some elk and.

[B]

We got the same stuff. Glacier. Well, we don't have any bison, do we?

[A]

Not in the park, no.

[B]

That people try to pet or put their.

[A]

Are they, like, around here? There's a bison ranch around here, but it's all private, obviously. Yeah, I'm Native American, man. That's my. It's my animal.

[B]

I would say Yellowstone probably has more wildlife given its size. Glacier is gonna. They will have elk, though. It'll have moose. It'll have bears, both black and grizz. I think the grizz are still hibernating, though. Actually, all the bears Are still hibernating. I don't know if I would drive eight hours. That depends on how much car time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You guys want to have.

[A]

Do you guys have, like, are you pretty strict around here about hunting as far as, you know, seasons and all that?

[B]

Because, yeah, everywhere in the US Is strict like that.

[A]

So that's what I thought. So that's what I thought. Hold on. Well, let me explain. Let me explain.

[B]

So where is this question going?

[A]

So in Ohio, it's very strict as far as, like, your weapons and all that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Apparently in Michigan, it's not. You can get 10 DOE tags.

[B]

Yeah, but during season.

[A]

Well, yeah, during season. I mean, like, I shouldn't say that. That was a stupid question. As far as, like, weapons and all that kind of stuff, is it pretty open or just strict in that aspect? I should have said so.

[B]

Very strict on tags. Specifically sex of the animal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And type of animal. Some of the animals are a draw, like antelope. Well, there's, you know, fishing game is going out there, and they're. They're determining how many tags we're gonna get. So it can be. It can be draws, but, yeah, there are. They are very specific, actually. There's specific times for bow. There's specific time for black powder, specific time for. For kids, specific time for firearm. I don't know what kind of limitation they put on firearms, but these ARS

[A]

and all that, it said there's. There's no specific caliber limitations.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

So that's what I'm talking about in Ohio. It's pretty, you know, like, you can't hunt deer with ars.

[B]

And, you know, it's probably not the best round for a deer.

[A]

It's probably not the best round, but I use a 450 Bushmaster when I'm not using my bow. You know, there's only a week of gun season anyway, other than muzzle loader.

[B]

But I bet it sounds like Gettysburg.

[A]

Yeah, it does. Opening morning. Yeah. Oh, it's insane. We haven't. Well, my uncle and aunt, they have a nice piece of property. Yeah. I'm the only one that hunts there. And that's where that monster was. Yeah. You can hear. I mean. Yeah, Gettysburg. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. When you only got a week, you kind of got to get it in. You'd have about 60 depending on if you started in both season, you'd have 60 to 90 days to hunt. If you went all the way through for rifle as well, because you can go hunt in rifle season. You just have to start wearing it, of course.

[A]

Vest Yep.

[B]

There's a story behind every vest I know, right?

[A]

I've had some stories. I've had a huge tree fall on me while. Well, almost fall on me in my blind.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Talk about luck. And this would have been my buddies at work responding to my body. Yeah. I was in a blind, and I. I about text my wife, but I didn't think I needed to. I was going to say, hey, in case tree falls on me, you know? Yeah. Check on me.

[B]

Was it just a dead tree that fell or was it wind?

[A]

Yeah, well, it was. It was really windy. Yeah. And of the entire property, I was on the. The cornfield in the wood line. You know, I was just in it in a blind. I heard a crack, and I sprinted out of that blind as fast as I could. On my way out, this huge tree fell, and it brushed my shoulder. It crushed my steel chair. Wow. Oh, yeah. I have pictures of this. It's crazy. Landed on the ground. Huge tree. So I would have been dead, but I managed to just squeak out of there in time. I almost fell out of a stand. I was wearing a harness, thank gosh. You know, a few months ago. And actually during gun season, with the 450 right by my head, and I'm trying to hold on to the stand and. Oh, man, it was wild. Yeah.

[B]

Always wear the harness. Always use the safety line in those things. There's just. God, there's so many stories, so important. Yeah.

[A]

That harness. Yeah. People falling out, breaking their necks and.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, boys, let's get you out of here and let you enjoy Montana. What do you guys have planned for dinner tonight? I can keep some reservation.

[A]

Yeah, please, please.

[B]

Michael, what do you think? DeSoto Grill.

[A]

DeSoto is always like. They're probably.

[B]

Where you guys staying.

[A]

Where are we staying? How far is it? Right. Right up the road here.

[B]

Red line.

[A]

Red line. I don't think it's red line. Did you guys walk or drive? We drove, we flew to the airport, got a rental.

[B]

I figured that much. Yeah, I figured you didn't walk here.

[A]

We actually flew the airplane straight outside here. Yeah. We're only about eight minutes from here.

[B]

Okay, so you're up north. Okay. DeSoto Grill is what I would recommend for you guys tonight. They have, like, elk sausage, elk platters.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Game platters.

[A]

Yeah. Let's do it.

[B]

If you go there and you don't eat the cornbread, I am not sure you're living life appropriately. You need to try the cornbread. They're gonna try to give it to you. With every thing that you order, the answer is yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It is good.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Where else? Michael, what would you recommend?

[A]

Soto Mercantile is good.

[B]

Mercantile. Good.

[A]

What is it called?

[B]

The Mercantile.

[A]

Mercantile.

[B]

That'd be good for, like, it's a little bit of a higher end restaurant. If you guys want to go up into White Fish. I don't go up there often. I don't.

[A]

Whitefish has a really good Italian restaurant, the Brussos, except it's pretty expensive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They have Jaliscos Mexican restaurant. Whitefish has a lot of really good restaurants. White Fish. Can I interrupt? Are you the guy who had that big revolt or that big.

[B]

The Constitution.

[A]

Yeah. That was you. Oh, the Constitution. That was awesome. Yep. I do.

[B]

Yes. He doesn't have a garment for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like this thing I so desperately want to let him try to fire.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. That'd be a sight to see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just one time. Make sure there's several GoPros on everything.

[A]

Yeah. That's incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I will drop off what I have for you maybe at the store.

[B]

Yeah, just tell them at the store that it's for me and they'll take it back downstairs for you.

[A]

Yeah, awesome.

[B]

Cool. Well, I'll get you guys out here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Appreciate it, man.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to Libsyn ads.com that's L, I, B S Y N ads.com today.