BUD/S Was Hard, But It Wasn't Real | Full Auto Friday with JP Dinnell | 6.05.2026

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cleared Hot - Powered by BRCC

Episode: BUD/S Was Hard, But It Wasn't Real | Full Auto Friday with JP Dinnell
Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: JP Dinnell
Date: June 5, 2026

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Overview

In this episode of Cleared Hot, Andy Stumpf is joined by fellow former Navy SEAL and Echelon Front instructor JP Dinnell for an unfiltered conversation spanning military experiences, leadership, hard lessons from BUD/S, the realities of combat, training, personal responsibility, and a round of thought-provoking current event discussions. The episode is marked by candor, gallows humor, and an unvarnished look at the challenges of both military and civilian life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Military Podcast Banter & Naming the Episode

• The hosts tease each other about who gets what nickname and which military terms become podcast episode names.
• Discussion of logistics behind the podcast—balancing family, ministry, travel, and production schedules.
• (04:00) Humorous brainstorming (“Fire Team Friday,” “Overwatch Friday,” etc.) that sets the relaxed, inside-joke-laden tone for the episode.

“We can sit here all day on ideas that only you and I would understand. The audience would be like, ‘next.’” – Andy, 04:01

2. BUD/S & The Realities of SEAL Training vs. Combat

• The central theme: BUD/S is hard, but by comparison to real-world deployments and combat, it's controlled and—most importantly—not truly "real".
• Both reflect on their 19-year-old mindsets during BUD/S, the difficulty level, and the intense maturation that followed.
• JP recounts the extreme cold of post-BUD/S deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, compared to BUD/S “cold” (09:00).
• Both agree that combat operations, losing teammates, and actual leadership in life-or-death situations vastly outweigh BUD/S hardships.

“Looking back, BUD/S was difficult, but it wasn’t real.” – Andy, 11:43
“It was a controlled environment.” – JP, 11:46

• JP shares the emotional trauma of losing close friends in Ramadi, especially Mark Lee and Mike Monsoor, with life-and-death situations dwarfing anything in training (12:28–14:36).

“Dude, that was harder than anything in BUD/S.” – Andy, 12:28

3. Is BUD/S Hard Enough? Should It Change?

• They discuss whether BUD/S should be tougher: both agree the standard should never lower. The attrition rate has always self-selected for the right qualities, not just physical toughness (16:18).
• The unique psychological aspect: the “safety net” at BUD/S, invisible to students but omnipresent for instructors, is necessary but fosters illusions.

“BUD/S has been working pretty well for a very long time. The numbers are the numbers.” – JP, 16:47

• The value of perseverance after failure: many top SEALs did not succeed at BUD/S the first time (17:10).
• Tribute to Mike Monsoor and the heroism reflected in the Medal of Honor citation—with personal adds/corrections to the official story (18:08–19:11).

4. The Inability to Replicate Combat in Training

• The episode examines why no amount of simulated training, technology, or stress inoculation can capture the experience of actual combat.
• Discusses risk tolerance, the necessity of a robust safety net in training, and the inherent limitations of “fake gunfire, fake explosions, fake IEDs” (20:10-20:45).

“You know it’s fake... it’s still controlled.” – JP, 20:36

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Memorable Quotes & Segments

Military Leadership and Responsibility

• On leadership after tragedy:

  “You add the loss of life of your friends or if you’re in a leadership position and people are relying on you to make the right call—dude, that was harder than anything in BUD/S.”
  — Andy, 12:28

• On perseverance:

  “People think that if you fail that then you are a failure. No, only if you let it define who you are.”
  — Andy, 17:18

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5. Current Events & Ethical Discussions

a) Ken Paxton Plea Deal Controversy (22:00–33:44)

• The hosts respond with visible frustration to news that ex-Texas AG Ken Paxton offered a one-day plea deal to a sex offender, a judge extended to 60 days.

• Strong opinions: Both are adamant there should be no plea deals for child predators (“That sounds like it should be associated with the death penalty”, Andy, 23:04).

• They dissect flaws in the justice system, empathy for victims, debate the difficulty in re-trying with reluctant testimony, and advocate harsh consequences for predators.

  “No plea deals for predators. That shouldn’t even be an option.” – JP, 25:34
  “If you are preying upon children, I have absolutely nothing for you except for a potato peeler.” – Andy, 27:16

• Sidebar: The conversation pivots briefly to broader, dark realities (e.g. Epstein scandal, societal denial, the scale of the problem).

  “I think it’s much bigger than we actually think it is. Because we don’t want to address those things and think about those things.” – JP, 32:05

b) Paraglider vs. Airplane Accident (34:00–41:18)

• Andy provides technical analysis and black humor on a viral paragliding accident video.
• Discussion about parachuting safety, rare risks, carrying reserve handles, and analogies to military freefall.
• They riff on the absurdity—and necessity—of robust contingency planning for extreme outdoor sports.

c) Doorbell Cam Home Intruder Incident (43:43–55:08)

• Video review of a man attempting forced entry while a woman and child are home, leading to a larger discussion about preparedness, home security, and appropriate use of force.

• Both share personal stories about teaching kids to have plans for home emergencies—not out of fear, but out of readiness.

  "There’s a difference between living in fear and living in reality.” – Andy, 55:03

• The key tool for home defense: firearm, provided you train, plan, and discuss with your family.

• JP recounts how his own daughters, when babysitting, instinctively sheltered younger kids and armed themselves with a baseball bat during suspicious activity.

d) Bystander Intervention and Standing Up to Bullies (56:09–64:11)

• Andy’s son intervenes to protect a woman being harassed at a store, earning praise (and discounts).

• JP describes stepping in during an airport confrontation; both reflect on the rarity and importance of this behavior.

  “You have to step into the void. There has to be people out there willing and prepared to step into that void to protect those that can’t protect themselves.”
  — Andy, 57:28

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6. Police and Military Use of Force – Hostage Bank Incident (66:28–73:44)

• Review and analysis of a recent, real-world Bakersfield bank standoff; examining police protocols, differences in military vs. law enforcement rules of engagement, and the immense difficulty and restraint expected of modern police—especially post-incident, rendering aid to their attackers.

• Mutual deep respect for law enforcement’s constraints and professionalism.

  “The police, that’s such a hard job... that gap and differences in ROEs is one of the main reasons why I caution: some of the stuff we did would work really well, some would not.”
  — Andy, 71:44

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7. Bank Robbery and Bitcoin Tangents (73:45–82:49)

• Entertaining sidebar about notorious bank robbers (e.g., "the treehouse robber", D.B. Cooper), and the inevitable fate of getting caught.

• Wistful stories of “missed out” Bitcoin windfalls, the anxiety over lost digital wallets, and how money (or its loss) impacts life choices and priorities.

  “You know, you get in at 50 cents… if it hit five bucks, I would have convinced myself it can go no higher. So I must exit now and take my gains.”
  — Andy, 78:02

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 07:06 | Was BUD/S as hard/uncomfortable as actual deployment? | | 11:43 | “BUD/S was difficult, but it wasn’t real” | | 12:28 | Losing teammates is far harder than any training | | 22:00 | Ken Paxton plea deal controversy begins | | 25:34 | “No plea deals for predators” | | 34:00 | Viral paraglider accident discussion | | 43:43 | Home intruder/doorbell cam segment | | 55:03 | “Living in fear vs. living in reality” | | 56:09 | Stepping in to stop harassment/bullying | | 66:28 | Hostage bank situation & police use of force | | 73:45 | Treehouse bank robber, D.B. Cooper, Bitcoin tangents | | 80:54 | Losing Bitcoin wallet stories |

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Tone & Style

• Straightforward, irreverent military banter; humor as a coping mechanism for dark topics
• Blunt, direct, and at times emotionally raw when discussing loss and moral boundaries
• Both Andy and JP stress the importance of self-reliance, readiness, and moral responsibility, balanced with empathy and self-detachment.

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Takeaways

• BUD/S is intentionally hard, but nothing can prepare you for actual war and loss. Standards should never drop.
• No matter how tough the training, the realities of life—loss, combat, and responsibility—are much harsher.
• Personal and family readiness is paramount; plan not out of paranoia, but out of realism.
• Stand up for those unable to defend themselves; responsibility is a daily choice, not a background.
• Law enforcement and military are parallel, not identical; respect for the unique roles and demands on both.
• Trauma and hardship should be met not with excuses, but with accountability—both for oneself and those in power.

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For listeners seeking lessons on resilience, moral clarity, and leadership under pressure, this episode is a deep dive into both the humor and gravity found in a life of service.

Transcript

[Mike]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north and south.

[Jocko]

West of the smoke.

[Mike]

West of the smoke.

[Jocko]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Oh, wait a minute.

[Mike]

Give it to me. I mean, it cleared.

[Jocko]

Hot coffee. Clear. Not the hardest part about today.

[Mike]

I don't want to call from LE.

[Jocko]

Hey, J.P. just skip it. That's what the little red icon is for. On the phone. When Leif calls to yell at you, you just beep. Sorry, I'm doing something else. The hardest thing today will be. What do we call this episode? So Fridays, if I'm by myself doing Q A, it's Full Auto Friday.

[Mike]

Oh, that's.

[Jocko]

I mean, but every other Friday, it's me and Michael, and we call those ND Friday because he's kind of like a walking. ND we're working on it. I don't know what we call today. Suggestions? Fire Team Friday.

[Mike]

That works.

[Jocko]

We're a little short of a fire team.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

What do you think? What do you call your episodes that you do Q A on? It's just.

[Mike]

It's just Q A. And we're not as. I want to get back to where it's consistently one Q A session in the week. Our episodes come out every Friday. Yeah. And then we were doing Q and A's, but you know my schedule. And we're like, if we're just getting one Friday and occasionally Q and A's, we're happy.

[Jocko]

The production calendar is harder to maintain with professional travel than people would imagine. Yeah, I. I'll lay out my entire month. Oh, that's gonna be a busy day.

[Mike]

See you tonight at 9pm Like, I

[Jocko]

have to record everything this day for

[Mike]

a tick, tick, tick, tick, tick all the way down. Lucas is awesome. There's times we'll get stuff and then. But, you know, he's got young kids and he's a pastor of a small Baptist church, and so we're trying to, like, fit it in. And sometimes we'll do Riverside while I'm on the road, just for a quick, like, hey, we need one. But he's super flexible. There's been times where I'm like, hey, bud, here's my schedule. He's like, late night. I'm like, if you're okay with it. And his wife's awesome. She's like, yes. Like. And we'll be recording till 2am but

[Jocko]

get it done, though.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. So we don't call him anything. What should we call today?

[Jocko]

Michael, do you.

[Mike]

Hey, were you a sniper?

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I mean, it could be overwatch Friday.

[Jocko]

Are we overwatching, Michael? Because he definitely was not.

[Mike]

No.

[Michael]

I need some supervision. Honestly, he.

[Jocko]

The term sniper for him is more. Have you seen that cartoon Sniper? No. Oh, no, that's Swiper. Swiper. No swiping. Do you know what I'm talking about? I thought it was sniper. No sniping.

[Mike]

No.

[Jocko]

Damn it. I thought I was gonna come off the top ropes with that one, but it's Swiper. No swiping. Yeah, we were both snipers, but. Not going to call it Echelon anything, because Jocko will get all mad, even though I don't think enough people make fun of him. So I try to do it for most of them.

[Mike]

See, Leif would be stoked. He's like, yeah, you guys are representing well. Like, that's why I love life. Like, I was joking when I was like, I don't want life mad at me, dude.

[Jocko]

He is.

[Mike]

This last year, been so awesome for me. Like, pouring into me for my professional development because he's like, hey, man, I know you've never had these. This type of a position in the military or outside. And so he's. Him and Jocko have been really boring into me, which is nice.

[Jocko]

What position do you have now you didn't have before?

[Mike]

Like, a senior. Senior position. I'm our chief training officer and part of the executive leadership team.

[Jocko]

I'm CTO and. Exactly. Elt. Cto. Elt.

[Mike]

Yeah. We have to work, Cleo.

[Jocko]

We're gonna have to work on that. What if.

[Mike]

I mean, you only just do full auto Friday?

[Jocko]

I mean, you're. It's different because you're here.

[Mike]

I would say Frogman Friday, but Ryan Parrott has that.

[Jocko]

Did you carry a saw when you were in?

[Mike]

I did. Mark 46.

[Jocko]

Is there something there? It's full auto Friday. Go ahead, Mike.

[Mike]

I mean, yeah, we can sit here

[Jocko]

all day on ideate on stupid terms that only you and I would understand. The audience would be like, next. Today's episode is brought to you by Helix Mattresses. I have been talking about these guys for quite some time, and I don't foresee a future where I'm not talking about them, because I sleep on one of these mattresses every single night. And if you're in the game for a mattress right now, they have over 20 mattress models, so you can find the perfect model match for you. Plus, we're getting ready to go into a new season. Right? Getting ready to come into summer. What are you upgrading your home with? I think it should Be a Helix mattress. I've talked about this before. There was a break in time where I was working with Helix on advertising and then was doing exclusive ads with Black Rifle Coffee and then started working with Helix again. Well, during that time period that break, I needed to upgrade the mattresses at my house. So I just went out and bought these Helix mattresses. You don't need to take my word for it. Every single person who has come and stayed with us asks the same thing. Dude, what mattress is this? They're having the best night's sleep of their life. It's easier for them to go to sleep. They're just incredibly comfortable. I don't have the vocabulary to describe the upgrade that it has been. Leah and I were just on the road and of course what we were talking about on the flight home, we cannot wait to get home so we can sleep in our own bed. There is a 120 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. They also have the Happy with Helix guarantee. You can rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. They're also award winning. Helix is the most award winning supported mattress brand tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. Here's what you need to do. Go to helixsleep.com cleared hot for 20 off site wide. That is helixsleep.com cleared hot 20 off site wide. Helixleep.com cleared hot. You will not regret it.

[Mike]

Well, I mean yeah, you could say, hey, normally solo but I'm we're keeping it because I got another machine gunner from the SEAL teams with me.

[Jocko]

I was never machine gunner though. However, I was always carrying rounds.

[Mike]

Or you could say I have a machine gunner from the SEAL teams with me.

[Jocko]

Yeah, I was always carrying rounds for you guys. My favorite thing was contact drills in

[Mike]

Take it and throw it Island.

[Jocko]

Regardless if asked for or not. If I was coming by, you were getting a box.

[Mike]

Yeah, that was super fun. I don't have anywhere to put it. And then they put it in.

[Jocko]

Your no longer my problem.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. I remember one of the dudes unzipped my pack and put it in there. I was like,

[Jocko]

what are you gonna do?

[Mike]

Nothing.

[Jocko]

This is the point where you take over.

[Mike]

I'm assuming I'm looking this way.

[Jocko]

You can look at it wherever you want.

[Mike]

Just looking at.

[Jocko]

You can look whatever you want. Surprise yourself. You can look directly into that light. You could look up. I mean cameras everywhere. We got a wide Angle one, that's red. What are you gonna go with, Michael?

[Michael]

Okay. I'm gonna go with an actual question instead of a topic.

[Jocko]

Okay. Is this a question from you?

[Michael]

From me. For you. Both of you guys.

[Jocko]

Interesting. Tell me more.

[Michael]

Were you guys ever as uncomfortable out in the field? I guess I know this is as you were in BUDS or any sort of training thing.

[Jocko]

Never been asked this before. I don't want to make BUDS sound like it's easy.

[Mike]

It's not.

[Jocko]

It's not.

[Mike]

However, comma, thank you.

[Jocko]

If you were to rate it from a cold perspective, tired perspective, physical pain perspective, psychological loopiness, maybe just from being up for so long, I'm not even putting it anywhere near what the real world presented.

[Mike]

Not even close.

[Jocko]

And I don't know if your instructors told you that BUDS was going to be hard, but not the hardest thing you ever did. I was like, why are you guys lying to us there? I thought there was no way. Because buds, I was just turning 19. It was my dark night of the soul. Which is the worst thing that's ever happened to you.

[Mike]

I was 19 also, so at that

[Jocko]

point I have a lot of context. Holy cow. I mean, it was hard for sure, but pales in comparison to some of the stuff they asked us to do.

[Mike]

For sure. Yeah, I would agree. And. But when you also think of it from like when. When you're 19 going through buds, you have advantages and disadvantages. Yeah. The advantage is you're 19 and you're in phenomenal shape. The disadvantage is, at least for myself, was maturity. Unfortunately, I had good older guys in the class that would be like, hey, hey. And then in sqt, when I started working under Seth and Leif and Andrew Paul, they really helped, really helped guide me with my maturity. But yeah, no, BUDS and SQT didn't even come close to actual combat operations and deployments. And then life.

[Jocko]

What was the coldest you ever were? Because it certainly wasn't laying in the Pacific for a couple hours with five minute breaks in between.

[Mike]

No, I would say my. I think I have two that are. That are probably tied. My first deployment doing psd, we went up into the mountains of northern Iraq, and this is in the winter time.

[Jocko]

And of course you brought all the appropriate kit, right?

[Mike]

Of course. Because none of it had really been issued that time and they realized that this was going to be a problem. So guys are stoked that we have these North Face jackets and all these things. And even with, like, layers and a nice, like, at the time, a really nice North Face jacket I was absolutely miserably cold and we were outside holding external security while there's this little meetup. I'll find a picture later and show it to you at the top of a mountain. It reminded me of like something from a movie. Cuz the helicopter landing pad was up there. You could see everything below you. That was by far the coldest I'd ever been. And for a long time after and then in Afghanistan, but we were in a warmer region. Cuz I know buddies that were in different areas where it was much colder and that was again outside just hating life. I don't like the cold in those situations. Yeah, I mean now if I'm coming up here to vacation and it's different, you know, you're going snowboarding, which I love to do. I'm dressed and you're moving. Instead of just standing in one position, looking and scanning and hoping we're going to rotate position so I can get some blood flow and actually move around. It was. Yeah, yeah. And you know the bathroom situations out there. Awesome.

[Jocko]

They're pretty dope.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

Clean. Five stars.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. For sure.

[Jocko]

Coldest I'd ever been was in the desert for sure. And it was on one of the hottest days that switched to one of the coldest days. So we're talking a triple digit temperature swing in a single 24 hour cycle. So smoking hot but up at altitude and then when the sun went down damn near freezing and it just was the coldest I've ever been. That swing between the two, that's. It was horrible.

[Mike]

I've never heard of that in a 24 hour window. I felt bad for Benny when we left Ramadi because he had about a triple digit swing going from Ramadi back home and then back to Wisconsin on leave. But that was all within a weekish. Yeah. And I thought that was horrible for that transition. But in 24 hours.

[Jocko]

Yeah, it's rough. What, what do you think the hardest thing you had to do in the SEAL teams was? No, for me it's not one specific thing. It's more the, the environment or I'll put it like this, I suppose. And this will maybe answer Michael's question. Looking back, buds was difficult, but it wasn't real.

[Mike]

No. You know what I mean? It was, it was a controlled environment.

[Jocko]

It seemed very real in the moment as a student. But then. And you saw this as an instructor, the safety net there is robust.

[Mike]

It's crazy.

[Jocko]

It's crazy the students don't know that. For good reason because a little bit of that, you need to play into the psychological aspect of it a little bit too, but it wasn't real. Students, of course, have died there. They probably will continue to die there, which is a horrible thing. But I do think probably essential for that to continue to happen. I don't want anybody to die. But the cost of training that hard is the cost of training that hard. You add the loss of life of your friends or if you're in a leadership position and people are relying on you to make the right call. Dude, that was harder than anything in buds.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's way harder. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. In Ramadi, losing Mark, Mark Lee, who's killed on August 2, 2006. I mean, even before that, when Cowie got wounded and sent home, like really bad, like, guys were like, we're not sure if he's gonna make it. Okay, cool, he's gonna make it. Is he gonna keep his leg? Okay, he's gonna keep his leg. And so you're like going through that. And then also we were very close with all the soldiers and marines that we worked with. We had an incredible relationship. These soldiers and Marines were some of the most brave humans I'd ever fought alongside in Ramadi. And we're losing those guys all the time. And so we're going to every single memorial service that we could if we were out on a combat operation. It was a rough overseas and that was the first thing that we did as a task unit, first thing in country. Memorial service for 13 Marines, I believe it was 13 that got ambushed and killed and murdered out in the streets. And that was like, welcome to Ramadi. And then a few weeks later, Cowie and then the gunny sergeant with us that I dragged out of the street. And then more, more guys. And then Mark was killed. And on that same day, Ryan Job was wounded and guys were like, I don't know if he's gonna make it. Okay, cool. And then he's gonna make it. But we don't know what it's going to be like. And then, and then towards the very end, then when Mikey jumped on that grenade, it was just that one wrecked me because all of them were really hard. But Mikey, Mikey was one of my new guys. And you know, when we're in Camp Corregidor, the way we had the room set up that we built in this old blown out building, Mikey was one wall on the other side and Benny Olson was on the other. And so like, yeah, you know, that was when. And I wasn't on that Operation because I had cut my finger down to the bone a few days prior. Got life. Flighted out because. To a larger base. Cause I thought I was going to lose my finger. Had emergency surgery, ended up making my way back because I was supposed to stay down there for a while. And I was like, no, I'm not. I'm not staying here. And I, like, just jumped on some convoys, got my way back. You know, team guys doing team guy stuff. But they wouldn't let me stay out at Crigador, so I had to pack up all my gear and go back to the main base.

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And I remember going out for a run that day, and Ray Baviera pulls up next to me in one of the Hilux trucks. And I, you know, I look over smiling. It's like one of your close friends. And he was just like, hey, man, a couple of guys got really messed up. We gotta go back to the talk right now. And that's when I found out that Mikey had died.

[Jocko]

And to flip the question on its head, do you think that BUDS is hard enough? I don't know what I would add to it.

[Mike]

I was gonna say yes when I first came back and I was at BUDS for a little bit as an instructor because I got. I had to have some surgeries after deployment. I got pulled from my platoon, which it's a whole other thing we'll probably talk about tomorrow.

[Jocko]

But

[Mike]

I was a psychopath again. Maturity thing. I turned 23 right before Ramadi. So now I'm fresh out of Ramadi. Got pulled from a platoon where Seth was going to be my tasking commander. Now who is my O. And he's my big brother. He helped me become a young man in the SEAL teams. So I'm now getting pulled away from Seth. I go to buds, and all I can think about. Sorry, all I can think about are our guys and comparing every single one of them to Mikey and Mark and the. And Cowie and Ryan who are wounded. And it wasn't fair for me to compare those guys to them. And so I was a complete psychopath to the point where. And I love when Jocko tells this story. He's like, hey, you remember Rambo? When they're like, come get your guy. They call Jocko and they're like, hey, man, come get your guy, guy.

[Jocko]

Hey, your boy's not okay.

[Mike]

Yeah. And he pulled me over to trade it to have fulfillment of actually teaching something of value instead of just being an indoc instructor.

[Jocko]

I think that's where you and I actually finally Met.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

In the hallway.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

Somewhere.

[Mike]

Oh, no, I remember walking. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. But to answer your question, I wanted to give all that because back then when I was young and immature and I didn't look at things from a strategic standpoint, I would say, oh, yeah, we need to make it harder. Buzz is so well designed. I think we should maintain the standard and it should never lower. But, man, Buzz has been working pretty well for a very long time. The numbers are the numbers. I mean, how much money has the Navy thrown at trying to increase the

[Jocko]

numbers or study people who makes it through and who doesn't and they don't change. It doesn't change. I don't. You know, the pre training program, which I heard went away and then may have been coming back, I think. What did it add? 8 to 16 weeks after boot camp, People could stay in. Great.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah, I don't think it changed. It didn't. It didn't increase the numbers. The, the percentages are the percentages.

[Jocko]

You know, one of my favorite things about Monsoon is that he didn't make it through training the first time.

[Mike]

I love sharing that story.

[Jocko]

Yes.

[Mike]

Neither did Mark Lee.

[Jocko]

It is. People think that it. If you fail that then you are a failure. No, only if you let it define who you are.

[Mike]

Exactly. From it.

[Jocko]

I think it's one of the things I wrote about actually in the. I loved being at Team 3. I would stop and I would stare at Mikey's body armor on the quarter deck, which is a naval terminology for a front. Front office, essentially.

[Mike]

Front desk.

[Jocko]

Yeah, front desk. It was unmanned, but in a lot of military installations or I can. I'll speak to team three. There's. There's like a picture of like the crest of what your command is going to look like and then historical pictures and stuff. And there was a lot of pictures of your guys. Task unit down the hallway. Yeah, but his gear was right there. Yeah, front and center. And man, that Medal of Honor citation, if that doesn't get you to question whether or not you have the stones to take the same actions that he did in the limited amount of time he had to make that decision.

[Mike]

So there's something. There's one thing wrong with that citation.

[Jocko]

Really?

[Mike]

It says two other guys. There was three on the roof. You mean on the rooftop. Okay. They're talking about Doug and Mike that were right next to him. But Benny was just as close to those guys.

[Jocko]

How did they make that mistake?

[Mike]

Well, because Doug and Mike sustained most of the injuries.

[Jocko]

Gotcha.

[Mike]

Benny had injuries. He had trap battle in him. Like he was bleeding, but it doesn't mention him because the injuries that Doug and Mike endured were horrific. Like, really, really bad. That's the only thing that's wrong with that citation, is it should have included three men. Benny Olson, most incredible frogman I've ever known. And little fun fact about that machine gun. Benny Olsen's the last human to ever shot it.

[Jocko]

Really?

[Mike]

Because when he was working on Mikey and then Doug and Mike and, you know, everything, he picked up his machine gun to fight off enemy fighters and engage him over that wall and ran it, ran that gun until it went dry and then went back working on the guys. He was the last guy to ever shoot Mikey's machine gun.

[Jocko]

The hardest part for me to imagine about that is that he could see over the wall, because short wall, or

[Mike]

he's on his tippy toes or. I don't know, he might have been.

[Jocko]

Are we talking, like, one of those little concrete curbs that.

[Mike]

No. Yeah. Because he might have been standing on Doug.

[Jocko]

Here's the thing. Maybe he's not in the citation because he just wasn't tall enough to be meant. I mean, how tall is Ben? Four, six?

[Mike]

He's five eight. He's five eight.

[Jocko]

Let's be honest. He's. We. I love Benny. Like I said, we spent a lot of time together in 2010. He is fantastic. He's a weasel.

[Mike]

Yeah. And he's awesome because you look at him like most guys in our platoon, kind of unassuming. And then, you know, you have Wes Baldwin and Smurf and Benny and myself, and it's just like, you guys aren't team guys. We're, like, cool, Whatever.

[Jocko]

Do we even remotely answer your question?

[Michael]

Yes, actually.

[Jocko]

Okay.

[Michael]

Sounds like there's just no real way to replicate what you would.

[Jocko]

I don't know how. I don't know how you would actually safely replicate combat.

[Mike]

I can't.

[Jocko]

I don't think you can. No. Even with the best simulations, fake gunfire, fake explosions, fake IEDs, fake RPGs, role players, which.

[Mike]

You get versions of that as training progresses.

[Jocko]

But you know it's fake. Yes. You know what I mean.

[Mike]

And you know, subconsciously and consciously at times, it's still controlled.

[Jocko]

That's what you say.

[Mike]

There's range safety officers, there's instructors everywhere. And it has to be that way.

[Jocko]

Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think there is a way. Not that would be accepted from a risk tolerance perspective. And I also think the reward would nowhere be near the risk because look

[Mike]

what the impact guys in the SEAL teams have been able to do real time overseas in some of the most crazy environments with the training that we have. So I would say spot on. Keep doing it. Just hold the line.

[Jocko]

Agreed.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Mike]

You could just clip just to that, I guess, for time.

[Jocko]

Michael does the clips. Who knows? That trend will. Yeah, it'll open with the question, that direct answer. Done.

[Mike]

And then we're done. For more access to the actual answers, go to our Patreon page.

[Jocko]

God, I have not figured out Patreon, man. I don't. I don't get it.

[Mike]

I guess it's a thing.

[Jocko]

It's not a thing. I'm gonna try.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Michael]

All right. I don't know if you guys have heard of the Ken Paxton.

[Jocko]

This is where the shit starts getting out of control.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

Because Michael's Internet surfing history is probably way different than yours.

[Mike]

Well, your listeners are gonna be really disappointed with my answers when I'm like, I have no opinion.

[Michael]

Ken Paxton, who's running for something in Texas, used to be the Texas Attorney General.

[Jocko]

Ken Paxton used to be the Texas.

[Libsyn Ads Host]

Yes.

[Jocko]

Now JP Is from Texas. Are you familiar with this guy's name?

[Mike]

No. Okay.

[Jocko]

Texas, for people who don't know that, pretty big. Yeah.

[Mike]

And for those that are about to learn, JP doesn't spend a lot of time of wasted energy and thoughts in politics over things that I can't really control.

[Jocko]

And if this guy's not in your district anyway.

[Mike]

Influence.

[Jocko]

Yeah. If it's not in your district, it's, you know.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But anyways, so when he was the Attorney General, he gave a plea deal to a sex offender that had habitually abused a child, essentially.

[Mike]

I know where I'm going with my answer.

[Michael]

That was one day in jail. The judge then gave him a much longer 60 day jail sentence.

[Mike]

I just saw this, actually.

[Jocko]

Okay, so hold on.

[Mike]

People are furious over this.

[Jocko]

So Ken Paxton was the ag. So I'm gonna assume that means he was prosecuting this.

[Michael]

I believe so.

[Jocko]

Okay. Agreed to a. So we got here a first degree felony of continuous sexual abuse of a child. That sounds like it should be associated with the death penalty.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Jocko]

Okay. Following a mistrial. I wonder what the mistrial was about. Prosecutors with the Texas Attorney General's office offered him a plea deal that included just one day in jail and no requirement. What?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

To register as a sex offender. Okay. So a judge intervened. The presiding visiting judge rejected the initial one day sentence instead opposed a 60 day jail sentence along with the surrender of Hoffman's law license, which I bet you that was probably the most that judge could do. Public fallout. The plea agreement caused intense political backlash for Ken Paxton, particularly during his campaign for a U. S. Senate, drawing heavy criticism for both sides of the aisle. The resolution was hoffman served the 60 day sentence with time off for good behavior and was released from the McLennan County Jail in late May. Is that late May of this year? Oh, my God. It is.

[Michael]

I believe so.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

What is your home state up to, JP

[Mike]

because this is public. I have no comment.

[Jocko]

It's okay to have comments.

[Mike]

I have no opinion that I'm going to share at this moment. That's ridiculous.

[Jocko]

How can people have. I would love to know. Michael, can you quickly google what led to the mistrial?

[Michael]

Yes.

[Jocko]

What was it?

[Michael]

Hoffman.

[Jocko]

And it's like if there was a mistrial. And for people who may not know this, I'm not a lawyer, so I have no idea how this stuff goes. But if there is a mistrial, I'm wondering if you could charge him again. You know what I mean? Maybe it's disqualifying, but I would rather go through the entire process again than offer some one day.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

In jail.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

This guy's currently running for office right now.

[Michael]

Yes, I believe Senate.

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And his opponent, Talarico is going to

[Mike]

have a field day with this.

[Michael]

Yeah, he's going crazy with this.

[Mike]

As he should.

[Michael]

Yeah, as he should. I mean, this is insane. I'm looking up the mistrial.

[Jocko]

I have a lot of. I try to have a lot of grace for just about anybody living their life the way they want.

[Mike]

So this Hoffman guy had a law license as well.

[Jocko]

Looks like he was an attorney. Former Waco attorney.

[Mike]

I missed that.

[Jocko]

I did as well.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Jocko]

And Hoffman was the one originally charged in the first degree felony of continuous.

[Mike]

Oh. So I wonder if this Hoffman and Paxton guy had worked together on something before in the past.

[Jocko]

You know how you say this? No plea deals for predators.

[Mike]

That shouldn't even be an option.

[Jocko]

That's what. And that's what I don't understand. We've had. There's been a couple cases that come up and sometimes it seems as if the victim's family is involved in the plea and they have to agree to it. And other times they're just. The plea deal is offered and the family is not even considered or communicated with, which I don't understand how there's any level of feeling like there's justice in the justice system. Did not work. Okay. So they didn't work together as colleagues or co counsel before the trial. The prosecution, the first trial was Originally tried for continuous sexual abuse, but the case ended in a mistrial after the. Oh. So the jury deadlocked. How? I don't know. I don't think you should be allowed. Here's how. I think you solved this. If you are a predator, specifically a predator to a minor. Plea deals are off the table.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

And I don't know much about mandatory minimum sentencing, but I think it should be way more than a day. And 60 days isn't enough either. And I think you should be really strategically placed in a prison.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

Specifically in a prison population area that's not going to be receptive to the reason that you're there.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

That's an easy solution because I have never been to prison, but from what I have heard about prison, they police themselves. Oftentimes to a degree that could be argued a little bit better than the civilian world when it comes to punishment for actions.

[Mike]

Yes, we are aligned.

[Jocko]

Yeah. I don't. Again, I. If it's consenting adults, I really don't care what people do. I don't have to morally agree with it. But one of my hard lines in the sand is if you are preying upon children, I have absolutely nothing for you. Except for a potato peeler.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Jocko]

So I don't, I don't get it.

[Mike]

I'm disappointed in that, especially the jury.

[Jocko]

It's tough because we didn't see the evidence.

[Mike]

I know.

[Jocko]

Right?

[Mike]

For sure.

[Jocko]

So to try not to go too far. I'm speaking for myself. Or to try not to go too far into it. A mistrial followed by a one day plea deal where you don't have to register as a sex offender. Does not. I don't see what that does. It's not going to make the victim or alleged victim feel whole or vindicated or seen.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

Because the person is not going to have to register as a sex offender which spends 24 hours. This is like an Epstein prison deal. Good God, Michael, you're just googling. Because the defense successfully cast doubt on the reliability of the victim's testimony and the forensic evidence, resulting in a 7, 5 split in favor of a guilty verdict. Hung jury in 2025 led to a mistrial because the victim was unwilling to endure the trauma of testifying a second time. The Texas Attorney General's office, led by AG Ken Paxton and prosecutors stuck a plea, struck a plea deal to reduce the charge to misdemeanors rather than taking the case back to court. And see, and this is where it gets weird. Because you can't force the victim to Testify again.

[Mike]

And that's horrible for them to have to relive that and talk through it. I mean, you and I were talking briefly about team guys having to talk through stuff that we endured in combat and how hard that is, which is. It's good, it's needed and it's healthy.

[Jocko]

And you're talking about this decades later, decades later.

[Mike]

And we were hunting evil people. Now we would see horrific things happen to innocent people. We were never on the receiving end of being in an innocent position and something horrible happening to us.

[Jocko]

Yep.

[Mike]

And we're men, grown men. Matured. This is a kid.

[Jocko]

Sometimes I just have Michael pull up that video of the man who was the parent of a child that was abused. He's sitting at a phone bank.

[Mike]

Oh.

[Jocko]

When the guy walks by, smokes him in the air.

[Mike]

I love that little video for. For Father's Day. Happy Father's Day to the best father out there.

[Jocko]

I'm not advocating for behavior. I'm just saying I really like that video.

[Mike]

Yeah. I also really like Law Abiding Citizen,

[Jocko]

which was this one.

[Mike]

This is a movie.

[Jocko]

This. I feel like this is a fictional movie. Can we pretend it's a documentary?

[Mike]

I wish.

[Jocko]

Who was in it? Is it recent?

[Mike]

No, this was 2009.

[Jocko]

Okay. I feel like it's in line with what we're talking about.

[Mike]

Just check it out later, some highlights from it and you'll.

[Jocko]

You get on the wrong side of the wrong people. And I mean, I. If that happened to my child, I don't think there would be anything or anybody that could stop me.

[Mike]

No, I agree.

[Jocko]

So be careful who you with. Moral of that story, you might get heel hooked. Yeah.

[Mike]

In the ghee.

[Jocko]

I don't see why the ghee matters in a heel hook. Is it because there's more friction?

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

All right. I don't really have an argument.

[Mike]

I mean, I'm not saying I agree either way.

[Jocko]

I'll just squeeze my legs.

[Mike]

It was just really awesome watching you do that over and over and over.

[Jocko]

Choices have consequences. I am glad that the Internet exists for reasons like this because the people in this area who will vote for this person can look at things like that and hold him to account for the things or that the choices that he made.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

However, I can see an aspect of this. Not that I agree with what he did, but if. Even if he wanted to fullback dive and go back into a second court case, if the victim is unwilling to do so.

[Mike]

That sucks, man.

[Jocko]

That sucks. But I don't think a one day plea deal that Reduces them to misdemeanors and the person doesn't have to.

[Mike]

That's why I think there's some connection. There has to be. I mean, I've watched the show Billions. There's connections.

[Jocko]

I haven't gotten into that one. Is it good?

[Mike]

Just when it comes to this world. Yeah. Now there's some weird stuff on Billions, so I'm putting that asterisk out there.

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like weird stuff that you're like, why. Why does this have to be in the show? Because all the legal stuff is fascinating. The business and legal connections and ties is absolutely fascinating. So that's why I jokingly said there has to be a connection. Unless this guy is just a horrible person and he agrees with what this guy did. Or maybe he does that too.

[Jocko]

I don't think the world needs any more of that.

[Mike]

They don't, but it's out there.

[Jocko]

How big of a problem do you think it actually is? I stroke.

[Mike]

I think it's much bigger. Bigger than we actually think it is. Because we don't want to address those things and think about those things. I mean, you saw how quickly all

[Jocko]

the other stuff talking about Epsy now.

[Mike]

Yeah. Has just. It's not so.

[Jocko]

I completely agree with that. None of that makes sense. And I. I hate that. Transparency was one of the. The talking points and running points. And at this point it's so polluted that I don't think. Even if they said, hey, we've released everything, nobody's going to agree anyway.

[Mike]

Right.

[Jocko]

So I don't think we're ever going

[Mike]

to get resolution because nobody's gonna know what's actually true or not.

[Jocko]

I do worry, though, that people will go so far and they'll say, well, they're all pedophiles, like, listen.

[Mike]

Which is not the case.

[Jocko]

But that's. And that's also not how you get to the bottom of it either. You can't paint with a broom like that.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

It's tough. Yeah. I think it is a problem for sure. And I don't think necessarily it's a problem in politics or in power or with people with money. Maybe they have more access to that. There are just people who come out of the box broken, who are into that.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

And the only solution, again, that I know to that involves a potato peeler. I just don't know how big the size, scope and scale of that problem is. I would like to get to the bottom of it.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

Wouldn't it be too. Well, it would be to everybody's benefit, except for that Small community of people to get to the bottom of that. Yes. All right, so we don't like this guy, Michael.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm not a fan personally.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

I also don't live in that district. So anybody in Texas who does. Do your research on who you're going to vote for.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

If I did live in that district, I would vote for the other candidate personally.

[Jocko]

Yeah, that makes sense. Do you have anything that doesn't involve preying upon children for champions?

[Mike]

Yeah, I'm like level 10 on the inside over here.

[Jocko]

Just like, he likes to do this. He'll go nuclear and then come back like, have you seen this video of

[Mike]

a bear on a skateboard?

[Michael]

Yeah, this one's pretty crazy. I'm sure you both have seen this. It's been making the rounds.

[Jocko]

Oh, yes, I think. Have you seen this?

[Michael]

People sent this to me.

[Jocko]

You think those are rookie numbers? Yeah, I have.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

1500 people at a minimum.

[Mike]

I couldn't imagine, you know, my default was I saw it and I was going to text it to you. I'm like, he's already seen this.

[Jocko]

Hundreds of people.

[Narrator]

Kill the volume canopy of a paraglider, sending her plunging to the ground.

[Jocko]

My name.

[Narrator]

Sabrina scrambles to pull her secondary parachute. It deploys, but it's terribly twisted, sending her spinning out of control. Then it fully inflates. Sabrina regaining control.

[Mike]

Thank God.

[Narrator]

See the mangled primary chute trailing behind high above the Austrian Alps. Tracking data shows Sabrina's flight over the mountains capturing the moment she suddenly fell out of the sky, dropping 2,000ft in two minutes. Sabrina later writing. I actually still can't believe that I'm sitting here typing this and that. Aside from a few.

[Jocko]

Hit pause right there, Michael, because that's the perfect image. First off, 360 cameras are dope. That's how we have this image.

[Mike]

That's unreal.

[Jocko]

I, yeah, I was asked about this. I addressed it on last Friday. There is so much blue sky in this picture and in the world in general, which I believe to be round, even though there is a community of people who believes it's flat. I won't put you on the spot because sometimes it's sensitive for people to discuss their true feelings on that. It is amazing to me how often with all the blue sky out there, it's crazy things. Want to connect the. The mix of airplane versus paraglider is no bueno. And at least in the US in areas that have a bunch of paragliding activity, it's, it's on the charts. It doesn't mean you can't fly there, but maybe the classic head on the swivel or maybe just don't fly there. Yeah, go above it, go around it. Let them have the. It's probably going to be around mountainous terrain too because they're going with the lift, the orographic lift and all this stuff. From what I've heard, I believe it was either a student pilot or a teenager flying the aircraft. The canopy had to have done some damage. I. It's fascinating. So I've had a bunch of paragliders reach out sometimes these people have two to three reserve parachutes for this reason. I don't think specifically for this but

[Mike]

for the reason that there's that many potential issues while paragliding.

[Jocko]

I don't know, I feel like, like we did some robust contingency planning. If we were paragliders, I don't think it would make my list. Inadvertent contact with a Cessna.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

You know that maybe other paragliders. Maybe a bird attacks my canopy and rips it into pieces.

[Mike]

But my thing is like if you have to switch to reserve, is it not part of just the game plan that we're done flying now?

[Jocko]

Oh yeah.

[Mike]

Why would you have two to three more? Do you plan on just going. Well got lucky because let's keep rolling.

[Jocko]

You know this saying one is none and yeah two is one. I have no idea. I don't know if you can cut away the. Well on a skydiving.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Jocko]

Rig. So did you get free fall called?

[Mike]

I did. Okay.

[Jocko]

So you know on the rigs did you always jump with your RSL attached or reserve static line?

[Mike]

That meant. So probably. Yeah, I would.

[Jocko]

A lot of people did. So anyway it's actually very, it's a very life saving piece of equipment. Yeah, it is. If you cut away it is attached to your riser and at a certain level of extension as your risers are separating from your three ring release assembly, it pulls the pin on your reserve. It's one of the checks that you do as a military free fall jump master. You're looking to make sure that that connects.

[Mike]

Yep, I remember that pin.

[Jocko]

It's a little circle that is interconnected. So at least you are separating what I will call the bag of that is above your head because what was left after this, which shouldn't surprise anybody is a non flyable paraglider.

[Mike]

Weird when an airplane flew through it.

[Jocko]

I mean it was, it was probably providing a little bit of drag on the way down but nothing great. But you can't get rid of that. So you're throwing reserves into a pile of trash above your head. At least on the military rigs or skydiving rigs, you should have separation. I used to always disconnect my rsl, specifically if you're jumping with a camera, because entanglements with main risers and. Or lines with cameras can happen.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

And what you don't want is a reserve fire into your canopy if it's attached to your helmet.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

So anytime I've ever had a cutaway, I give myself clearance, and then I'll fire my reserve on my own.

[Mike]

Yeah, but your. Your level of jumping proficiency, like, we're not even. You and I aren't even in the same country.

[Jocko]

I just have more reps at it.

[Mike]

Exactly.

[Jocko]

Yeah. But so an RSL or reserve static line, I think is a fantastic device. If used properly, there can be issues. And I do know of a guy, Mikey Bearden, who was killed because one of his risers released, and it was the side with the RSL and it fired his reserve into his main that was still trailing on the other side of killing me.

[Mike]

Holy crap.

[Jocko]

Yeah, it was the first fatality. He was at Team five. It was the first fatality I was ever around in the Seal community. So I was probably 90. It's 97 or 98 that he died. Point is, though, you can get rid of what's over your head. So maybe that's why they carry so many. Because, I mean, the. A good rule of thumb is get everything. And, like, if you're going to go in, get as much fabric out there as humanly possible.

[Mike]

I guess so.

[Jocko]

So, yeah, I don't know. But can you imagine you're out there. I don't know what it's like to paraglide because I'm not crazy. And it's a little sack. This is what I'll call that. And you're just minding your own business, maybe humming, you bluetoothing, just whatever.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

And then.

[Mike]

No, I can't.

[Jocko]

Michael, does this inspire you to paraglide?

[Michael]

Not particularly. I actually do think paragliding it seems

[Jocko]

fun, but why don't you try it?

[Michael]

Yeah. Is it. That's not the one with the. What's the one you're hooked to, like a.

[Jocko]

You're.

[Michael]

You see in like a propeller, chair, power parachute. Hmm.

[Jocko]

A powered parachute power.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. That also seems fun. But both of them seem cool.

[Mike]

Are you gonna give either a try?

[Michael]

Yeah, I would. I would give it a try.

[Mike]

Hmm.

[Jocko]

Let's recreate this. I'll be in the helicopter. You mind your own business and just fly around up there. We'll sky joust.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Would you. Could you have a thing that transmits your location with you as a paraglider?

[Jocko]

I feel like they showed an example of that when they were showing the altitude. Yeah, they showed the track.

[Michael]

Gotcha.

[Jocko]

I don't know if that is mandatory or optional. I would imagine a lot of people who do have that, it's because they like to nerd out on the data. And there's probably a community of people that show and they share their flights and like trail runners or whatever said

[Mike]

flight tracker or something like something.

[Jocko]

Something. It's. But I bet you that they look at the data and then they'll. They can probably look at the terrain and the weather conditions and it can help educate them as to where to fly to get lift and stuff like that.

[Michael]

Yeah, nice.

[Jocko]

What else you got, Michael? See, that's a lot lighter than potato peeler type issues. And this one is in between.

[Michael]

It's in between. It's funny, but not really for the right reasons.

[Jocko]

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[Michael]

It's scary now after the fact. Or funny after the fact. Okay, so a little bit of backstory. Oh, have you seen this?

[Jocko]

I have seen this one.

[Mike]

I have not.

[Michael]

So this guy.

[Jocko]

Hold on. First, what state is this in? Because.

[Michael]

Oh, I don't remember.

[Mike]

Changes a lot of things.

[Jocko]

It does. If this happened in Texas, I think it might have gone a different way in Montana. I am certain that what you're about to witness is a completely justifiable home defense situation.

[Mike]

You say it was in California. I love how you said, I'm certain. That's what I'm gonna use to convince my wife to move up here.

[Jocko]

Yeah. This is in California, though, so.

[Mike]

But me in Texas, like you. Yeah. I know what I'm doing in Texas, especially if my family's home.

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And this, which I'm assuming. I don't know, I haven't seen this yet.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's.

[Mike]

It's insane.

[Reporter]

Starting off normal, though, a man dressed in black demands to enter a private residence in Fairfield, California.

[Jocko]

Open the door,

[Michael]

He kicks the door

[Mike]

and falls off the falls.

[Jocko]

You notice his chosen combat footwear is flip flops with socks.

[Reporter]

While Claiming to be Harry Dresden, a popular urban fantasy character. You then hear the homeowner who was away at the time, repeated immediately, tell Nichols to leave.

[Mike]

Can you leave my house, please? You open the door, please.

[Jocko]

Oh, this is a door. He's talking to him.

[Mike]

For the doorbell to do in my house. Can you leave my house?

[Reporter]

Triggering this terrifying reaction.

[Mike]

Rounds would be going through that door.

[Reporter]

According to a police statement, a woman and child were home when Nichols entered through a separate sliding glass.

[Mike]

You know what my wife would have done?

[Reporter]

Finally arrives at the residence armed with a shovel. Who you are according to.

[Jocko]

Hit pause, please. I just want to look at his weapon of choice here.

[Mike]

I mean it's a snow shovel. Which. They're not using that for snow there.

[Jocko]

I mean I would have gone with a digging shovel. I feel like it has a heavier head and a longer hand.

[Mike]

Yeah. I mean Fairfield, there's a high chance a guy might have some like a pickaxe.

[Jocko]

I would maybe even use the folding step ladder. Yeah.

[Mike]

Dude. How awesome would it be to open

[Jocko]

the door with a weed eater running or not running.

[Mike]

No, just open it up and you're just like.

[Jocko]

Like pushing open it and the guy sees you, but you have your hand on the pull start and he sees you starting it while you're making eye contact.

[Mike]

No, it's ready.

[Jocko]

It's already going.

[Mike]

It's ready. And then you open the door.

[Jocko]

You might give yourself carbon monoxide poisoning a little bit.

[Mike]

I'm worth the risk.

[Jocko]

Turn the fan on. On your oven.

[Mike]

Yes. Yes. Or use the Ryobi one. Battery powered one. So then he doesn't even know.

[Jocko]

That would be dope.

[Mike]

It's like a suppressed weapon.

[Jocko]

An electric weed eater.

[Mike]

I have one. It's awesome.

[Jocko]

To the face. That would be damaging. I would go for the throat. I don't think it would. It would.

[Mike]

They also have the welts. But if you had time to like change out to where they're the plastic ones that they're made for like thick weeds. Let's not get with edges on them. Jp. They're serrated.

[Jocko]

Let's keep it in the realm of the real. We don't have time to change out. We got a crazy dude at the house.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Jocko]

We gotta go get the weed whacker in the condition.

[Mike]

But what if you practice the change outs?

[Jocko]

I have no problem with that. Obviously.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Jocko]

But I need to see the training protocol and have it's really quick on mine. I usually it's just a twist and rotate.

[Mike]

Yeah. I will say when. When I'm changing Out stuff. I act as if I'm having to change it out for a stressful situation. Yeah. Just for zero reason when I'm edging the grass in our house.

[Jocko]

So this dude came around. He go back like five.

[Mike]

So he snuck in through.

[Jocko]

I want to hear this. Did he actually enter the house?

[Mike]

No, no, no. That was.

[Michael]

Well, he.

[Jocko]

So after he did, Nichols gained entry

[Michael]

through a side door.

[Jocko]

Okay.

[Mike]

And it.

[Jocko]

But the guy was home at that point.

[Michael]

I guess he had.

[Mike]

I thought Nichols was the owner. Like, he gained entry through a sliding glass door.

[Jocko]

Nichols is the. Open the door, dude.

[Mike]

No way.

[Jocko]

I think. Yeah. Okay, hit play, Michael. Let's watch this.

[Reporter]

Nichols entered through a separate sliding glass door before the homeowner finally arrives at the residence armed with a shovel.

[Mike]

I don't know who you are.

[Reporter]

According to the statement, the altercation turned physical, with both sustaining head injuries. It's unclear if Nichols had any connection to the homeowner or his family. Minutes later, police. Police arrest Nichols, now charged with four felony counts, including threatening a crime with intent to terrorize.

[Jocko]

Michael, go back to that real close up of his face.

[Mike]

He's gonna get more jail time than our previous subject.

[Jocko]

He might. Can you make it so it's not blurry? I'm gonna change JP's profile image on my phone to this.

[Mike]

Michael.

[Jocko]

Perfect.

[Mike]

Got it. I needed to get a picture. Everyone's gonna think you had that him on the podcast.

[Jocko]

Dude, that's crazy.

[Michael]

That would be a crazy episode.

[Jocko]

There's actually a lot to dissect in this one. Is you need to have a plan. Like, this is statistically anomalous for sure. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a plan and talk with your family about options that you have available. Escalation of force and things that you can do. Because the time to figure that out is not when this dude's at your doorstep.

[Mike]

And. And you know, and we live in a good neighborhood and I still like, we'll talk with the kids and my wife and we talk through these things. Like, hey, if we're running to the store and it's just you kids here, you know, all doors are locked. If you're letting the dogs out, you let them out. You lock it for weird stuff like this just in case. And so. And it's funny, I forgot that we had like ingrained that into our kids head. And I'll be at the house and I'll go to grab something like, ah, the doors. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I want the doors. To be locked for my kids. Like the fact that it's my kids habits to come in, close, lock the door. I'm good with that. And some people are like, well, you know, your kids live in fear. No. They're being aware of their surroundings. They're being smart. And so, yeah, the fact that this is happening and no, like the mom didn't think, let me go lock all the other doors and windows right now.

[Jocko]

I didn't even think about that. Yeah. That she just assumed that the front door was going to be enough to stop. I mean, I get that this occurred in California. I lived in California for a long time.

[Mike]

I was born and raised there.

[Jocko]

Yeah, it's. Yeah. There are different gun laws there. A little bit more restrictive in some senses. But you talk about, okay, a woman and a child are left home alone. I love jiu jitsu. I love fighting. I love violence. I know we're both in the same boat and I like doing that in a controlled manner because I don't actually like fighting people because I don't want to.

[Mike]

I'm the same way.

[Jocko]

However, if it's my wife and child at home, I don't care how much they practice. There's one tool and one tool only that levels the playing field in this situation.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

And that's a firearm.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

And you have to talk about where it's going to be stored, usage, actions after usage as well. Calling night, like all of that stuff has to be discussed as well. Hoping that the homeowner can get home and find a shovel somewhere.

[Mike]

It's crazy.

[Jocko]

Is crazy also, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the guy didn't know how to fight.

[Mike]

No, he didn't.

[Jocko]

Because they both ended up hurt. You should be able to absolutely demolish McLovin. Yes.

[Mike]

Dude.

[Jocko]

Looks like might be the name I put in under your contact with the photo. I'll screen grab it for you when I'm done. Don't worry about it. Thanks.

[Mike]

It's gone. Beginning of this trip is awesome.

[Jocko]

You should be able to destroy this person. And I'm not advocating for people to be a violent savage going out there looking for fights.

[Mike]

Absolutely not.

[Jocko]

It's the opposite of that. It's so that you can do your job, which is to protect your.

[Mike]

You need to be capable.

[Jocko]

Yes, crazy does exist. I'm glad the doorbell cameras exist like this as well too.

[Mike]

What a great use of that technology. He's talking through him and you know the guy didn't just stay where he's at. Yeah. He was headed home. Like, if you see that.

[Jocko]

Oh, you're freaking.

[Mike]

Yeah. And if I'm not home, I. I have a handful of buddies that are close enough. I'll put out the group text and then start calling individually. They are breaking every law to get to my house.

[Jocko]

Yep.

[Mike]

And also pays. Have a really good relationship with your local pd. I would call my guys there. Correct. And they would.

[Jocko]

You know, also, that's a great. The wife immediately get on 91 1. Like, this is. This is what 911 exists for, stuff like this.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

Like, get a higher level of care moving in that direction. So hopefully there can be some convergence.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

I mean, clearly the guy is not well.

[Mike]

Right.

[Jocko]

Like, but actions have consequences. Yes, they do. Also, the bell only needs to be rung three times. Did you see how he just abused it?

[Mike]

Yeah. He'd never make it through buds.

[Jocko]

I have seen people ring that bell, though, way harder than that.

[Mike]

Oh, because they're so mad at their life choice. Yes.

[Jocko]

It's. That's a sturdy bell, though, on that pole.

[Mike]

Oh, I bet.

[Jocko]

Yeah. It takes it pretty well our.

[Mike]

Because we talk about these things with our kids.

[Jocko]

You have to.

[Mike]

Yeah. Our kids were babysitting some of our friends kids. And we went out on a date night, and it was at somebody else's house. So it was three couples. We all went out, and our kids. It was the first time at these people's house. And so we hung out. We got there early, hung out, made sure everyone was comfortable, kids were good. And, you know, so we have twin daughters. They're 14 now, and they were 13 at the time when they're babysitting. And so we all. And we're close where we're going to dinner. We come back earlier than expected. And I guess earlier somebody had been knocking on the door at their house. And our kids knew, like, hey, don't answer it. Don't engage. Like, nothing. And it was some kids in the neighborhood or what are teenagers or whatever. But when we come home and they hear us coming through the door, they think something's happening because we're back earlier than we expected, and there's, like, no kids in the living room or whatever. And we're, like, walking in, and I just. And you've met my daughters before, so this will be no surprise to you. Cora had. So Cora had. Had Nola, her twin sister, take the other kids into a room in a closet to hide. And Cora was standing around the corner with a baseball bat.

[Jocko]

Yes.

[Mike]

Had I seen her off the reflection of one of the windows. As I'm walking through the house with the. The other couples eating some teeth, my kneecap would have been absolutely destroyed. Or my hip, because she was ready for it. And I was just like. And so I create a little bit of distance and pie the corner wide on my corner. She's like. I was like, cool. And she's like, no, you can come out. It's safe. It's just mom and dad. And I was. I. I just thought that was super cool that my kids were able to think through that because we talk about, hey, if this happens, do this. Just something to think about. Yeah. But also, like, our daughter's intuition is much higher than most humans, which is really cool.

[Jocko]

There's a difference between living in fear and living in reality.

[Mike]

Yep. Oh, that's a good.

[Jocko]

Yes. Well, the statistics. Thankfully, the statistics still show that almost nobody ever is in a violent confrontation. But my question to people is this. If you do end up in one, how do you want that to go? Also, you may not be the person who's directly involved in it, but are you going to sit there and do nothing if you watch something else going on?

[Mike]

So, yeah, that's, like, another question that Michael could have just asked us. Like, hey, if you see something happening, what do you do? I know our answer.

[Jocko]

So I got a call from my son yesterday. You'll like this Tyler story. He almost got kicked out of Whole Foods in Bozeman. He is in there. First off. I don't know why he was in there. He's very money conscious.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Jocko]

Whole Foods is not traditionally known for the cheapest of fare.

[Mike]

Yeah. You know the nickname Whole Paycheck? You're spending your whole paycheck there.

[Jocko]

So he's in there, and he says they have a little sushi section which he thinks that they outsource. And somebody from in town comes, and he happened to be walking by, and he noticed a woman standing next to a man behind the counter there. And he was being really aggressive in the way that he was talking to her. And then he grabbed her and he started shaking her. And my son and me was like, hey. And was like, starting to make a scene and was like, stop doing that. Like, take your hands off of her.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

So the guy looked at him, stopped for a second. Tyler went to go turn away, and he grabbed her again and he smacked the top of the glass. He's like, do you think this thing is going to stop me from coming back there and ripping your head off like a candy wrapper?

[Mike]

What?

[Jocko]

Yeah, that's what my son said to the guy.

[Mike]

Oh, your son said that?

[Jocko]

Because as he turned to leave.

[Mike]

Got it, got it.

[Jocko]

The guy grabbed her again. And my son was like, smack. The glass said that to him. They separate. He immediately went, got a staff member. They booted the guy out and gave him 50 off on his groceries.

[Mike]

That's awesome.

[Jocko]

And I was like, hey, buddy. Yeah, that's exactly what you do. You have to do that. I always told my kids when I was growing up, when they were growing up, if I ever catch you bullying somebody, it's gonna be your ass. But if I ever hear that you were there when somebody was getting bullied and you didn't step in, that potentially might be worse.

[Mike]

Oh, I mean, yeah.

[Jocko]

You have to step into the void. There has to be people out there willing and prepared to step into that void to protect those that can't protect themselves.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

Because otherwise we're.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

And then the Predators win. And I refuse to accept that that's going to be the case.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It's not going to come from our bloodline that allows that to happen.

[Jocko]

No. No, it certainly will not. And I'm glad that he gets to go and continue to shop at Whole Foods.

[Mike]

Yes. That's awesome.

[Jocko]

No, I heard this story. I'm like, that's. That's. That's spectacular.

[Mike]

I. I had an incident like that happen. I was in an airport, small airport out on the east coast. I can't remember what city I was flying out of. It was in South Carolina, but doesn't matter. And weather. There's like some weather issues and then mechanical and then weather or whatever. And I'm just like, all right. Like, getting upset about this fixes nothing. So I'm working through contingency plans. Like, hey, can I get to a different city that has a connection flight? It was gonna be a non stop, so that's convenient, but like, hey, cool, as long as I can just get back. And this guy starts getting really mad at the. The gate agent, which happens all the time. And they're prepared for that.

[Jocko]

They.

[Mike]

And she's de. Escalating a few things, though. This guy was about my age, so at the time he was probably 39, 40.

[Jocko]

And

[Mike]

this was an older, smaller lady working behind the counter. And he's starting to escalate. And I'm like, man, she's doing a good job. But I could tell it was like really starting to upset her. So I get a little bit closer. A little bit closer. I actually did that today at your gym. I know you're rolling. I think your wife might have caught. Some guy came in and was just talking to your front desk lady. But he was a little.

[Jocko]

It happens every once in a while, and I do the same thing.

[Mike]

And I just drifted over there because the things he was saying were. Were just a little unique.

[Jocko]

And I was just like, they're out of context. That's how I'll catch that stuff.

[Mike]

That's perfect.

[Jocko]

It's like a non sequitur behavior. There's normal conversation, and then there's.

[Mike]

Let me just get close enough.

[Jocko]

Closing the distance a little.

[Mike]

Yeah, me there too. Yeah, yeah. And I just at that point, I have my phone in my hand, and I'm like, no, it's gonna go on the counter in front of me. My sunglasses are gonna sit right next to it because I don't want to ruin my gators. Yeah. And it was funny. Like, I even checked to make sure my fanny pack was zipped shut because I was just getting closer. So going back. So I'm at the airport. This happened. Now the guy's escalating. And I'm like, okay, this is a point where I have to get really close or step in. Let me get really close. Maybe if I get really close, the guy will wreck. Oh, shoot, somebody's around. De escalate. But I'm also thinking, like, man, I don't want to get into altercation at an airport because I fly for a living, not as a pilot, but, yeah. In order for me to make my living with echelon front, I travel two to three, sometimes four different cities a week. I can't be banned from flying. But then I'm also thinking, well, I'm not starting anything. I'm finishing it. I can de escalate. I was like, this guy, cool. He has a jacket. I'm gonna grab that foot sweep, you know, neon belly, control him. Like, I'm already, like, pre planning everything that I'm gonna do, and it'll be clear based off all these 1700 cameras in this small area that I came in to help.

[Jocko]

So I'm like, plus the fitness that's directly involved.

[Mike]

Yes. And I'm like, rolling through all that. And then it got to a point where this guy's now, like, yelling and getting super aggressive. And he's not in front of her anymore. He's now coming to the side, and she's going the other way to create that distance. And it was at that point I was like, you know what? I'll drive to every gig. Like, I, I, I can't let this happen. Like worst case, I can't fly anymore. Like, you know what, I'll just, we'll figure something out. Jocko and Leif will figure something out with me.

[Jocko]

How do we that people get code Black like that? I don't. Especially in public. Not that it's okay to do that in private, but you would think you should level of eyeballs and you obviously what you're describing, heads are starting to turn.

[Mike]

People are starting to pay attention 100%.

[Jocko]

I don't understand how people escalate to that Code black.

[Mike]

Yeah. So I, I finally just as he create, he's trying to go around and he like backstepped a little bit to go. I just stepped in between. And I was like, hey man, you're done enough. And he just like looked at me, I'm like, hey, relax dude. She has done nothing wrong. She is the only person that can maybe fix this situation for you right now. And he just like looked at me, he's like, what are you going to do about it? I was like such a stupid question. And I'm standing there and I'm like looking up at him and I said, I promise you this does not end well for you. You need to get away. And I just was like go. And he's like looking at me. And the reason why I said go and kept my hand up was to have it close to my head to like protect myself. And I was using my other hand. Like I was just like, hey man, what are you doing? So that it's as close I can strike, whatever, pull him in and headbutt him. Like I was rolling through all these things. And then finally he like looks and he's just like you. He like walks away. I was like, have a great day sir. And I turn around, I'm like memory. And she has tears running down her face. And I'm like, hey, are you okay? She's like, yeah. And I was like, hey, can I give you a hug? And like I like went back there and like gave her a hug and she like held on to me. I was like, who do you need to call? And she's like, okay. And she like gets on the phone. I was like, this is absolutely crazy.

[Jocko]

How many other people saw that too? I did nothing.

[Mike]

Crazy bro, Crazy. But she got me on a non stop first class seat.

[Jocko]

That's how that goes.

[Mike]

The next morning and ordered a black limo service to come pick me up and bring me to the hotel, which they also paid for. And I was like, cool man, I hope that dude's having fun sleeping in the parking lot.

[Jocko]

Did you, at any time in your contingency planning consider pulling guard?

[Mike]

I am not.

[Michael]

Do not accuse you.

[Jocko]

You would have had to elevate for. So, I mean, maybe just pull guard. Play whatever game you want.

[Mike]

Well, if I'm a pull guard, I'm going to go to Formiga's move. And I would butterfly sweep him over my head, end up on top. Yeah. And then tickle him.

[Jocko]

I'm just saying.

[Mike]

How bad would that be? If you. Let's just say you're in that guy's

[Jocko]

situation, you just, you can't get out

[Mike]

and you get pinned down and the dude's like tickling you or going, what are you going to do? Just tapping the nose, but you wish you had better control of your tail.

[Jocko]

Emperor. The code black thing, man, it's crazy, man. They don't go from A to Z either. They go through the entire Alphabet of escalation, and at no point in time do they realize, hey, this is not good. They don't have the same thought that you did. I might get banned from this airline for life. I may never fly again if I keep this up. I don't know what it is.

[Mike]

I. I mean, you and I are very fortunate and blessed because of our backgrounds and our training and we, we understand how detachment. I don't know if I would have

[Jocko]

done come black on anybody even without that, if I had been a botanist for a living.

[Mike]

I'm just saying we have that advantage to look at people and be like, that's crazy. You know, I was a hothead growing up. I used to lose my temper and I just thought, you know, okay, that's just, you know, but it would never like, like that. I don't, I think, man, I don't. I don't know what it is. I have no idea. So, you know, here's the other thing. I also don't know what that guy had been through that day.

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like, did he find his old lady cheating on him? Did his. One of. Is one of his kids sick? Is he trying to get home? Is his kid dying of cancer? Did he just get fired? Is he getting evicted from his house? You know what I mean? That's the other thing is like, I also don't know what is going on in his life.

[Jocko]

It's true. But you know whose responsibility it is to handle that shit?

[Mike]

His 100%. Yes, I agree. So I've been really trying to be more mindful of like. Like, what's their perspective? Yeah.

[Jocko]

I've been doing that a lot too. I try to see it through other people's eyes as well.

[Mike]

And. And I also understand, like, hey, man, I don't know what they're going through, you know, and that's one of the things that we teach at Echelon Front is like, hey, what's going on with somebody? Instead of just going level 10, like, hey, you're not performing. We're gonna fire you. Check in on your people. Yeah. Hey, is everything all right? And so.

[Jocko]

And for people hearing this, I mean, I don't work for Echelon Front, but don't ever take what he's saying as an excuse because you are going through something to treat somebody else like.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Jocko]

That's not what I'm saying.

[Mike]

No, that is our point is like. Like, don't treat people, you know, so anyways, there is never a reason for somebody to do what that guy did at the airport or what this unfortunately mentally unstable young man is going through.

[Jocko]

He looks like he has it together. I mean, I don't. Does anybody's face look great on a doorbell cam? That close?

[Mike]

I mean. Yeah.

[Jocko]

That is so 100. Your profile picture in my phone right after this episode.

[Mike]

I hate you.

[Jocko]

One more, Michael.

[Mike]

There is a severe cost that comes with this friendship. I'm enduring it right now. Thought we're gonna get to all 12.

[Jocko]

Oh, there's no way we. For almost an hour.

[Michael]

Let's see here. The ones I have left are kind of downers, if I'm being honest.

[Jocko]

Like super downers.

[Michael]

Not super downers. Actually, I have one that's a bit little. Felt a little good. Okay, so have you guys heard about this hostage bank, Hostage situation?

[Mike]

No.

[Michael]

So this was going on like two days. For two days, I think.

[Jocko]

What?

[Michael]

It finally ended.

[Mike]

How?

[Jocko]

In SoCal again. Whoa.

[Mike]

Bakersfield, not far from Fairfield.

[Jocko]

Totally. Good God. An hours long standoff began Tuesday, came to an early Wednesday. Came to an end early Wednesday after the suspect who had barricaded himself inside a bank, was shot by FBI agent personnel. Okay, scroll down a little bit.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Jocko]

Bomb threat. Okay. That seems to be the classic bank robber technique. As I have a bomb. Give me the $50 you have in your drawer. Police responded with SWAT teams, hostage negotiators, and a bomb squad

[Mike]

who's no stranger to law enforcement.

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Oops.

[Jocko]

Previously been dishonorably discharged from the US army for going absent without leave. Also known as as AWOL from his service from 2006 to 2007. So he's a career army guy. Also A registered sex offender. Wow. This guy has got the douchebag. Bendigo card just filled out. Ten people, all identified by the superintendent of school employees were taken hostage. Five of those hostages were tied up. Claimed to have a bomb. Attached explosive devices to several hostages.

[Mike]

Jeez.

[Jocko]

He was neutralized. Jesus. It's not a Hollywood movie. Movie people. My members, 4:20am local time. I wonder if they stormed the building,

[Mike]

shot off all the power. Hopefully.

[Jocko]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Dark. You know a better way to say neutralized? I learned from Matt Hasby that I incorporated into my talk. Sometimes when we're talking about combat, we shut off birthdays.

[Jocko]

Shut off birthdays. I feel like that might go over some people's heads.

[Mike]

It's amazing because I'll pause and I'll be like, some of you guys are trying to figure that out. And then it's clicks and everybody loves it. Even the people that you're like. If I would have just said we were killing bad people would have been offended. When you say and we're shutting off birthdays. Yeah, pause anyways, let it spin. So they shut off this guy's birthday at 4:20 in the morning.

[Jocko]

Let's see what we got. Diva hostage were unharmed. Good. Attempts to negotiate the release of more hostages failed. So he let two out. Oh, they went into the building. Man. That is not tactically fun to go into a barricaded suspect. That is just the worst, man. Scroll down More. 110 miles north of LA. That's up in the agricultural belt of California.

[Mike]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[Michael]

A little bit. Just kind of more of a breakdown.

[Jocko]

Kicked off at 1. The motive held a grudge against law enforcement and media over how his past criminal cases were handling. Of course it's anybody's fault but his own. He targeted the building because the prominent Chase bank branding on the exterior would ensure a large police response. That's a weird thought process.

[Mike]

He wanted to either try to hurt as many law enforcement personnel or suicide by cop.

[Michael]

I feel like any hostage situation, though, would draw the same response.

[Jocko]

I think it depends on. I mean, you can give. You can give up. I mean, the police are governed by very strict rules of engagement, which is crazy.

[Mike]

What they have to do. They. I mean, which I. I know it's by design. Yeah. But man, like, I have a lot of buddies at Denver swat, which all those guys are a big fan of your podcast.

[Jocko]

Sweet.

[Mike]

And when I get. When I work with Jesse and a lot of his guys that come down and help the FTX's and they'll like, talk about some of the stuff and you're just like. I mean sometimes their hands are just completely tied.

[Jocko]

Dude. You know what's wild for me is I work with some federal agencies and if they engage somebody, they instantly switch from being a law enforcement. They're still a law enforcement personnel, but then it's life sustaining care in an instant. I mean they're cuffing the person and then it's like, yeah. They asked me like, so how would you guys handle the situation? I'm like, we would continue shooting until you introduced enough wounds that are not compatible with life.

[Mike]

I mean, yeah, I like what you said and I want you to repeat it. Once the cuffs go on, they then are professional enough to be able to like, I know I can speak for my friends.

[Jocko]

The person had just tried to kill them. I know they will do everything they can to save that person's life.

[Mike]

Unreal. Like, Jesse and his guys will tell me stories and like one time I. He was sharing the story at an FTX like debriefing after like the field training exercise that we run and he was sharing a story and I was, it was awesome because everyone was able to hear this perspective and he was relating it to, to how detachment is a superpower. You were just in a shootout or you're high car chase or you're dealing with this guy who is just shooting at your partner. You guys engage. You didn't eliminate the threat. Now it's. They having to switch to, all right, cool. Now we have to render medical aid and care to keep them alive. And to me, I, I have so much respect for those guys to have that ability to do that because like you and I, we never.

[Jocko]

That was well in the game.

[Mike]

No, it wasn't.

[Jocko]

If it was a, if a threat presented itself, you drive that thing to the ground until it's no longer a threat. Hard stop.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Jocko]

I mean the police, that's such a hard job. It's a hard job. And people, so many people think that service in the military directly applies to law enforcement. And that gap right there in differences and roes is one of the main reasons where I caution, like, listen, some of the stuff we did would work really well. Some of the stuff we did would not work.

[Mike]

No.

[Jocko]

And the context of the environment and the job that you are being asked to do has to tie into that. But yeah, nothing but respect. For I watch these agencies train and that switch is just, I mean everything they do, everything they can neutralize the threat, contain the threat. Boom. Life saving care. Good on you, man.

[Mike]

Man, hats off Utmost respect for that ability.

[Jocko]

I don't think it's a good idea to rob banks. No, I don't think it's a good idea to take hostages. No, I don't. Have you ever heard of one where the.

[Mike]

And all the explosive devices were fake?

[Jocko]

Of course they were. Have you ever heard of a bank hostage situation that went well for the hostage taker? No, I don't think I have either because. Do your research, people. Not that I'm advocating for behaviors, but this is batting average of 0%. Don't do this shit. How many?

[Mike]

I mean, obviously, you know, Hollywood glorifies it with these long thought out game plans and you know, months of planning rehearsals so that we can enjoy those movies. How many? Like what percentage of the bank robberies would you say were actually well thought out, rehearsed and planned versus emotional decisions of I'm having a bad day, I want to go rob the this bank or I don't have any money and I'm going to go rob this bank.

[Jocko]

It's a split of both, I think and I say that based off of a robust amount of documentaries. Bank robberies, some people up, some people think it through pretty well.

[Mike]

It still doesn't work out.

[Jocko]

It does until it doesn't if you extend the timeline. But the reasons they get caught, the most successful ones almost lose their operational edge. They are so success. They're in and out and they don't. And from what I would get, like, like I'm some expert on bankruptcy. Never was in law enforcement. I watched a lot of documentaries. Yeah, they're fascinating to me for the reasons that you're talking about. Is this an emotional thing? Is this somebody really thinking it through? The emotional ones seem to get caught a lot faster. There was one, I believe it was up in the Pacific Northwest. This dude lived in a tree house, was crushing banks for years, would go in a disguise, would walk in, walk out. They couldn't catch the dude, but he had enough volume and he, he presented just enough of a pattern. And I think it's been a while since I've seen this. I've seen this one. I think it was the day of the week. And so they started canvassing, just throwing out random canvases to shorten their response time, which led to a foot chase which led to I think he killed

[Michael]

himself, but he died in a police standoff.

[Jocko]

There you go, the treehouse guy. Damn, Michael. It's over there. Just crushing, crushing stuff. He was at this for years.

[Mike]

That's impressive.

[Jocko]

He wasn't dumb.

[Mike]

No, I clearly not so.

[Jocko]

And he wasn't emotional.

[Mike]

He.

[Jocko]

I can't speak for the guy, but

[Mike]

he was too structured and that rhythm, structure caught up to him.

[Jocko]

Yeah, he. Dude, the treehouse bank robber. Yep. Williams cutsker law. Nearly 20 banks in the Seattle netting roughly 2.3 million, funded a massive three story tree. So in this documentary, he chills out in this tree house. He doesn't wear clothes a lot. His dick is just out in this documentary, just dong everywhere. I don't know what the deal is with that either. So it's unfortunate, the modus operandi. I need to use that term a lot more. It's masterful use of professional makeup. Prosthetic noses in theatrical disguises. I mean, that's not an emotional thing.

[Mike]

No, this guy was planned out.

[Jocko]

I mean, he. 1500 square foot treehouse in the woods of Olympia, say. Oh, yeah, it was in Washington. Multi tiered structure. Electricity, plumbing, fireplace, even a fire pole. Thanksgiving Eve in 96, we had two accomplices, attempted to rob bank for a record $1 million. They were spotted by police and engaged in a shootout. He escaped on foot, tracked down by authorities the following day, cornered in a backyard camper, he died by suicide capture. This unique treehouse was eventually sold by his parents to settle his debts and was collapsed in 19. So again, even if you think it out, if you extend the timeline long enough, I guess other than the dude they think that jumped out of that airplane. What's that Dude's name? Oh, D.B.

[Michael]

cooper.

[Jocko]

Yeah. Nobody knows. Right? I like to believe he's out there somewhere. He's out of money at this point though, because I think he had like a suitcase.

[Mike]

I mean, unless you put it into bitcoin.

[Jocko]

You know, people ask me, what would I tell my younger self?

[Mike]

Oh, I know exactly what I tell.

[Jocko]

I wouldn't believe my younger self if I said, dude, just please put your entire reenlistment bonus, which was like $4,000, just put it into bitcoin. Like, no. Gonna spend it at the bar.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. You know what? Yeah. One of my buddies introduced me to bitcoin when it was 50 cents or like maybe a dollar fifty. There is a cent included in it. Yeah. So it was either $0.50 or 1.50 and we actually linked up. He was telling me about it and he's like, bro, you got it. I was like, he's like running through it and then at the time he's like, yeah, so if somebody wants to buy my coins, they. You have to meet up. They have the money, they Give it to you, then you transfer. And it's also. And he's, like, running through all this stuff and everything. I was like, man, that seems super shady because it kind of was back then because you're meeting somebody, you're verifying you have the money, and then it's like this transfer to a wallet. And so I was like, man, he's like, I'm telling you, man. He's like, yeah, this is all the money I put into it. I was like, huh. Well, I had some penny stocks that had done nothing and just sat there. And I was like, huh, okay, maybe I'll just transfer that over. And. Yeah, so I told Amanda, and every time we talk about this, she's always like, man, I'm so sorry, but, you

[Jocko]

know, you would have sold it at, like, $3 if it had doubled. That's. That's my. Would have been my problem. Like, you get in at 50 cents. If it hit five bucks, I would have convinced myself it can go no higher. So I must exit now and take my gains.

[Mike]

So, like, only. Yeah, maybe, or I don't know, because then it, like, jumps. Jump so quick. But, yes, I probably would have or if I would have listened to him. Well, yeah, because I was gonna buy 15,000 of them, bro. Dude, I know. Don't do the math on it.

[Jocko]

I.

[Mike]

Especially when I got over 100,000. Yeah, that was. Yeah, you have to turn your phone to the side. Side to see it on the calculator. And. But Amanda and I, when we talk about. Because people talk about crypto, she'll bring it up, I bring it up, and people are like, what? And I'm like. I can say this wholeheartedly, though now I'm actually really glad that never happened, because when we had done that, Amanda and I were still married. And then Amanda and I, as you know, were divorced. When we were trying to work through and get our marriage back, that's when the prices started going up. And I don't know if we ever actually would have gotten remarried. Had. All of a sudden I had this. And not because I made all this money, but it just. That would have added way too much chaos to my life. Yeah, it just. And because when you do that. And then we were super stable, got remarried, you know, got my family back and everything, which I know we'll talk about tomorrow when I tell people that story. And I can, like, God as my witness, I can say I'm. I'm glad it didn't, because I would never trade anything for my marriage and my Kids, nothing like I would never like. It doesn't matter. You can do the math, whatever. Now, Leif Babbitt always jokes about. He's like, hey, man, I gave you some horrible financial advice. Remember when you told me about Bitcoin at 1500 and I told you no, and then you called me like, man, it's up over 3,000. And I told you not not to do it. I'm really sorry. And I'm like, hey, I'm a grown man. I made my own decisions not to rebuy.

[Jocko]

And let's not forget, for every bitcoin good story, there's a variety of bad.

[Mike]

Millions of bad. Totally millions.

[Jocko]

This is the next bitcoin. And this. Yeah, I'm actually. I have, I don't know, crypto. I never have. I don't understand it. The concept of it scares me and I'm okay with that.

[Mike]

Well, what's really frustrating is my buddy, when he was showing me all this stuff, he's like, download this wallet, blah, blah, blah, transferred me 10 coins.

[Jocko]

That's not bad.

[Mike]

Don't know where those are.

[Jocko]

Fortunately, they're not worth much.

[Mike]

You know. Thanks. Thanks. Have. No way.

[Jocko]

Oh, no, let's go. That's in the ether somewhere.

[Mike]

I have that little app still because I always like, when you get a

[Jocko]

new phone, log it into that thing.

[Mike]

I know that's like, it's gone. So just a smooth.

[Jocko]

What is it now, 60 or 70, 000, I think.

[Mike]

Yeah, I dropped down.

[Jocko]

Imagine. Now, I think that if somebody became a bitcoin billionaire, they probably would write down their login stuff in multiple places or get it tattooed on the inside of their eyelids. Yeah, but can you imagine updating your phone and you were worth a billion in bitcoin, but you couldn't figure out a way to get into your app.

[Mike]

I would offer up 25% of it to whoever could figure it out because there are. You can't. No, there is an AI system, cloud or cloud or whatever it is that some guy, like, they just brute force it at it. He ran through it and he's like, hey. And so basically verified from what I've been trying to do research on this now because I'm like, wait, hold on.

[Jocko]

These 10 points.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

[Jocko]

I support this.

[Mike]

Yeah. And. And so he used that AI like system. And because it was. Because it had been transferred to the devices that he had, it wasn't like off of somebody else's device. It figured it out and it got. It got his money back.

[Jocko]

I was reading an article recently there's

[Mike]

a guy, I think, so if anybody listening, if you have this ability, 25% go straight to you.

[Jocko]

That's legit. I was reading an article, there's a guy in the uk, I think the uk, who was petitioning to dig into a landfill because his hard drive that he had all his bitcoin on, he threw it away by accident and I'm pretty sure it was nine or 10 figures. And he finally gave up on it because they wouldn't give him permission to go dig for it.

[Mike]

I wouldn't be asking for permission.

[Jocko]

Nine or ten figures, landmarks, mine or not, landmine, garbage area.

[Mike]

Oh, and he's wanting them to shut down and then filter through everything.

[Jocko]

Permission to basically go and find that nine or ten figure hard drive to which they said no.

[Mike]

I feel like you could negotiate with the state and be like, hey, I'll donate this to you. Oh, good.

[Jocko]

Good luck.

[Mike]

Sucks to suck.

[Jocko]

All right, boom. Let's get out of here.

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