Episode 374 - John Fussel

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cleared Hot – Episode 374 with John Fussel

Podcast Information:

• Title: Cleared Hot
• Host: Andy Stumpf
• Guest: John Fussel (Nickname: Fuss)
• Release Date: February 17, 2025

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1. Introduction and Background

In Episode 374 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf welcomes John Fussel, a distinguished Navy SEAL and one of four SEALs in his family. The conversation delves into John's extensive military career, his unique family legacy, and the profound experiences that have shaped his journey.

Notable Quotes:

• Andy [00:30]: "John Fussel is one of four SEALs in his family. That's a level of commitment that really sets him apart."

2. Military Career and Experiences

John Fussel shares his progression from enlisted ranks to becoming an officer through Officer Candidate School (OCS). He recounts leading operational elements at a national mission level command and handling high-stakes missions, including hostage rescues. John emphasizes the emotional toll of operations, such as dealing with mission failures and the loss of team members.

Notable Quotes:

• John [07:11]: "Imagine being part of a hostage rescue mission where the person you're after dies because of something your team did. That's the kind of reality we faced."
• Andy [08:01]: "We drove across the country during COVID with our kids, which was a unique challenge but also a bonding experience."

3. Transition to Civilian Life and Entrepreneurship

After retiring from the Navy in January 2015, John transitioned to the financial sector, working as an operations boss at Wellington Management. Despite initial success, he realized the limitations within the corporate structure, prompting him to explore new ventures. John leveraged his military leadership experience to develop courses focused on leadership, ethics, and team building, founding Patriot Leadership to share his insights with various industries.

Notable Quotes:

• John [115:40]: "I realized the path to really contribute in finance was too restrictive, so I decided to create something that could make a broader impact."
• Andy [155:55]: "Support a brand that's Montana homegrown and exploding globally? Count me in."

4. Challenges and Insights

John discusses the complexities of maintaining high operational standards within Special Operations communities. He highlights issues like retention problems, the psychological impact of missions, and the community's struggle with mental health. John stresses the importance of leadership and problem-solving skills, drawing parallels between military operations and civilian business challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• John [117:09]: "The SEAL community is full of exceptionally average people asked to perform extraordinary tasks. It’s about leadership and resilience."
• Andy [126:56]: "Witnessing the tenacity and grit of SEAL operators is something that’s hard to put into words."

5. Leadership Lessons

Both Andy and John underscore the critical role of leadership in high-pressure environments. They discuss how effective leadership fosters cohesive teams capable of navigating chaotic and high-stakes situations. John emphasizes that leadership is not just about commanding but also about understanding and supporting team members.

Notable Quotes:

• John [143:01]: "Leadership in the SEAL teams is about being willing to take on the most challenging missions and solving problems on the fly."
• Andy [144:15]: "If you have an ounce of it and you’re willing to work hard and never quit, you can achieve great things in the SEAL teams."

6. Mental Health and Community Issues

The conversation addresses the high incidence of mental health struggles and suicides within the SEAL community. John reflects on the lack of adequate mental health support and the stigma surrounding seeking help. He shares personal anecdotes, highlighting the need for better resources and support systems to aid veterans transitioning to civilian life.

Notable Quotes:

• John [153:00]: "Suicide rates in the SEAL community are staggering compared to the general population. We need to support those struggling."
• Andy [154:30]: "It's heartbreaking to see brilliant individuals fall prey to mental health issues after such intense careers."

7. Entrepreneurship and Current Endeavors

John elaborates on his current ventures, including Patriot Leadership and collaborations with organizations like SEAL Kids (soon to be renamed Children of Valor). He discusses how his courses incorporate real-world problem-solving and leadership lessons derived from his military experience. John also highlights his wife's successful business, Mercio.shop, showcasing their collaborative efforts post-military life.

Notable Quotes:

• John [157:17]: "Patriot Leadership is about translating military leadership principles into actionable strategies for businesses and organizations."
• Andy [157:45]: "My wife handles Mercio.shop, creating custom dresses that support our initiatives. It’s a great partnership."

8. Conclusion and Closing Remarks

In the closing segment, Andy and John reflect on the enduring bond formed through their military service and the importance of sharing their experiences to aid future generations. They emphasize the value of resilience, leadership, and continuous personal growth, encouraging listeners to step out of their comfort zones and embrace challenges.

Notable Quotes:

• John [161:00]: "I wouldn’t trade my military experience for anything. It taught me invaluable lessons about leadership and resilience."
• Andy [161:10]: "Sharing our stories can inspire and prepare the next generation to face their own challenges with strength and determination."

Key Takeaways

• Leadership and Resilience: Effective leadership is crucial in high-pressure environments, fostering team cohesion and problem-solving.
• Mental Health: There is a significant need for improved mental health support within the SEAL community to address high suicide rates and emotional tolls of missions.
• Transition to Civilian Life: Leveraging military experience can lead to successful ventures in various industries, emphasizing the importance of translating leadership skills.
• Community and Support: Building strong support networks and sharing experiences are vital for personal growth and aiding others in similar transitions.

Additional Resources

• Patriot Leadership: patriotld.com
• Children of Valor: Formerly SEAL Kids - childrenofvalor.org
• Mercio.shop: mercio.shop
• Drink Element: drinklement.com

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Final Note: Episode 374 offers an in-depth look into John Fussel's remarkable journey from a Navy SEAL to a successful entrepreneur, highlighting the challenges and triumphs experienced along the way. Listeners gain valuable insights into leadership, mental health, and the complexities of transitioning from military to civilian life.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Good morning everybody. Hope you had a good weekend. I hope you're ready for an awesome episode today. It's not very frequently that I'm able to sit down from somebody in my old career path from Naval Special Warfare. John Fussell is my guest today. Fuss is, I would say his nickname. And he is one of four SEALs in his family. Let's start with that. What kind of overachieving is that right there? Right. Obviously somebody's family won the genetic lottery. I'm slightly jealous. I don't have three other brothers. My sister definitely would not have made it through training. So, you know, he's got that he has the correct lineup. I think it would be. And although people think the SEAL community is small, which I guess it is in comparison to the Navy in and of itself, a lot of people, you don't know a lot of people, especially if you're separated by coasts and honestly if you're separated by teams, you might have heard somebody's name or have some idea of who they are, but having never met them. And that's actually the case for Fuss and I, I never had the chance to really spend any time with him. I think I had heard of him or his name, but sitting down with him for a few hours was the longest I've ever been able to sit and discuss our shared experiences. He started off enlisted as well, went to OCS or Officer Candidate School, so he actually has higher education. So we, we kind of took the same path, but he did it through actually educating himself and having a degree. I do not. I barely graduated high school and found a program that would allow me to commission absent having a degree, which I think they've shut down. Hopefully not due to myself storied career. Ended up at a national mission level command in charge of operational and maneuvering elements. And one of the things I appreciate about the conversation with Fuss is that it's not, hey, this is everything that we did, right? This is the stuff that could be the series of books or TV shows or movies. Sometimes you just gotta eat the ugly stuff up front too. And I mean, I'll let him get into the story, but imagine being a part of or in charge of a hostage rescue mission or the person that you're going after dies because it's something that people in your maneuver element or the operational element you're in charge of because of something that they did. Imagine living with that, having to eat that. I'll let him talk about that. So I enjoyed the conversation. I love connecting with people from that old world. I've said it many times. I don't ever want to be completely defined by that. I know it's inescapable to some degree. I try to tread on it very lightly. But I also love sitting down and talking about people or talking with people about their experiences. And that's we're gonna do today episode 374 with John Fussell, aka fuss. Before we get into that, bear with me for a few seconds. 60 to 90 seconds. Let me pay the bills. Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Co. If you've been a fan of the podcast or listened to some episodes, you might have heard the name Josh Smith. He is the founder of of Montana Knife Company. First time I ever met him, he was sitting right across the table from me and filled me in on not only who he is, but what Montana Knife Company was at the time and what he wanted to grow it into. That was a few years ago. And the company that he was talking about then was a fraction of the size of what they are growing into now. Josh is the youngest master bladesmith and the history of master bladesmiths. He started this company largely, I'm going to say his backyard wasn't like in the grass, but it was in a building in his backyard and has grown it too, and is continuing to grow it to something that's unbelievable. They're building a new headquarters right now and I don't want to misspeak, but I believe it's over 100,000 square feet. The walls are just being erected. The brand draws its roots from Montana, but it's a global brand and it's awesome to see him build infrastructure and then bring jobs into specifically where he lives in the Missoula area, just south of where I. Their products are unbelievable. You know, this right here, I've shown it many times. It's the mini Speedgoat for clarity. I'm not out Here getting into knife fights. I use this to open envelopes and boxes. All right, I'm not trying to get into knife fights, but in my fanny pack, I have a slightly larger version of this. He has a tactical series and one of the other things that they've done. I mean, look at this box. This thing is ridiculous. They're almost mirroring Apple in that experience of open and receiving the product that you get. Having said that, it's really hard to get their product. Demand is outstripping supply. Josh orders steel way into the future, so it's a little bit hard for them to forecast exactly what the demand is. But if you head over to montanaknifecompany.com, you're going to see a variety of things, from soft goods to lighters to fundraisers. They've raised almost $300,000 for the Heller High Water fundraiser, which is giving back to communities in North Carolina. I mean, they have a knife for everything. They have chef's knives, they have tactical knives, they have hunting knives, and everything in between. They're hard to get, though. They usually drop on Thursdays. But I suggest you sign up for their newsletter as well. And if you put your telephone number in, oftentimes what you'll get is an alert that they're doing a surprise drop. So there are ways to get these things, but it's not that easy. If you're able to get one and you're [e-mail] at some point in time in that checkout portal, they're going to ask you, how did you find Montana Knife Company? Do me a favor. Click on the cleared hot button or the Andy Stumpf button or both of those. If they show up and let me know or let them know that I sent you and that's it. So if you want to support a brand that is literally Montana homegrown and is exploding all over the world, MT knifecompany.com you won't regret it. These lines are absolutely fantastic.

[A]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun run. North or south? West of the smoke? West of the smoke. Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Give it to me. I mean, it cleared hot.

[B]

Campaign cleared hot. Chad before the show. Team guy for 20 plus years. I don't give a about any of that because already the most interesting thing I want to hear about is you spending a year during COVID driving through the country. Because I. I don't know about you. Sometimes I get exhausted about talking about Being a seal.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

No, we know the same people. We kind of all did the same thing. We wore the same uniform, sort of. But I've never driven around during COVID so I'd rather have you unpack that to start.

[A]

Yeah, we can do it. Yeah.

[B]

Where'd the idea come from? So other than probably being trapped in.

[A]

Virginia, my wife, she's a. She's a maniac like most of our wives. And she for years had it in her head. She kept. Like she was falling in love with it on Instagram and Facebook and she saw stuff.

[B]

That's where she got the hook was.

[A]

She got the hook and then she would. I mean, literally, I was laughing in her face. I was like, babe, we've got three kids and two jobs and I travel and.

[B]

How old were your kids?

[A]

So when we took off, they were 12, 10 and 8.

[B]

That's actually, I was. If you were going to say 3, 5 and 7. No, that would have been a journey that was completely different.

[A]

So our. The age was really, really the sweet spot. The kids were old enough that they're completely self sufficient. Young enough that we weren't pulling. We had girl, girl, boy. We weren't pulling our daughters away from their boyfriend. So they hated us. You know, they're still small enough. They can kind of jam them in a small space.

[B]

Probably found a sense of adventure. They weren't at the point where they didn't think their parents weren't cool yet or anything you guys wanted to do was.

[A]

Yeah. And it was. I mean, it was a shitload of work. I mean, it was. We did. We had two vehicles the whole time.

[B]

So really caravan.

[A]

Well, we, we had, we had a small sprinter van, which you've seen a ton of around here. We had one of those. In fact, I think it's a 144 wheelbase, the smaller one. And that thing was totally tricked out. And then we had our Suburban, which was our tender. And because, I mean, those, those sprinters are great for like a couple, maybe a couple with one little kid. Like, there's no storage at all. Right. And we had three kids. Like, so the. We'd roll on days we drive. The Suburban would just be busting of the gills with all of our crap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then, you know, we'd get to someplace the sprinter would become home. Yeah. And then, you know, like when we were here, you know, we're jumping the Suburban, go to. Is it road to the sun or going to the sun road, which is.

[B]

Open such a short period of time. They don't clear the snow from that thing until mid June.

[A]

Ish.

[B]

I think. Yeah, it's one of the last. They're just carving it off off the side of the hill, I think.

[A]

We came through here and we took off and we were here pretty early. We took off in June.

[B]

We might. Well, if it was. Trying to think back, we've had some pretty light snow years. Even right now, we're a little bit thin. But, yeah, there have been times where that's the last thing to open in Glacier Park. And for people listening, if you come to Glacier and you can go on the Going to the Sun Road, you should do. It's gorgeous.

[A]

Yeah. So we came. We took off in like, June of 2020. So we took off pretty early. It happened fast.

[B]

How much of a plan did you have when you departed Virginia?

[A]

We. So we were. We're actually living right outside Charlotte at the time. Well, I explain how we ended up there, but we were living outside Charlotte and my job went remote really quickly. Probably a little bit quicker than most. Not because I had some crystal ball. Just kind of happened that way. And I. I told my wife, I was like, hey, babe, remember that crazy idea you always had about driving the country and that? I was laughing. Your face about. She's like, yeah, you know, asshole. And he's like, I think we can do it. Like, let's do it. So we. I mean, we came together in a couple.

[B]

Did you have a sprinter van at that time?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Hopefully you got in early because let me tell you, the cost of sprinter vans during the pandemic did not go down.

[A]

We did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was ridiculous, I can tell you about. We did. We did sell it. Because of that very fact.

[B]

You probably broke even.

[A]

I bet we made a profit. I mean, it was criminal. I mean, I was. We were on the road and I started. I was just checking. Anyone jinx myself and I was like, checking. I'm like, damn, this thing's going up. Yeah, going up. And there's a point like, halfway through triple, it's like, we might break even. I was like, if nothing else changes. We sold it for about a 15 profit. And after driving it all the time.

[B]

You did.

[A]

I drove it for 11 and a half months. Never got it registered. Sorry, government. Never got registered. Never had plates on it and sold it to the guy. And the guy wanted to know if I was. If I was taking them to cleaners. Because he goes, there's something wrong with this. And I was like, no. He goes. I was like, why are you Asking. He's like, well, your. Your price significantly blow a lot of others. And I was like, I just want to.

[B]

I mean, we can add to the bottom line if you want.

[A]

I listed it 36 hours ago and I have a check in my hand right now. I'm not going to be greedy. Yeah, the government could say no interstate travel tomorrow and I can't sell this thing.

[B]

And we had just adventured for 11 months, so I'm going to put that in the win column.

[A]

Exactly. So.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But as far as the plan taking off, we did start off. My wife's a planner. I'm not. She had a like massive plan. And after about six weeks, we were like, okay, that's too much. It's because things were changing. Like at one point we got to California. California shut down. It was during COVID They shut down all campgrounds.

[B]

Like fences up on the beach type stuff.

[A]

Like we had all these epic campgrounds picked out. It was like, that's a pretty decent way to social distance is to like go camping. They shut them all down. So we. After about six weeks, when things were getting changed left and right, we just said, hey, look, we just got to pick our next destination and ballpark on how long we're gonna go there, you know. And so we ended up moving roughly about every week, you know, six, six to 10 days. We did a. We were here for about. This is early on for us. So we only did about a week here. But we knew we want to be in Glacier for a bit. We did about a week here. We did almost a month in Yellowstone just because that was later in the trip. And we kind of figured it out and we stayed on some friends property.

[B]

Plus, it's just epic.

[A]

Oh, it's amazing. My really good friend, he's a just retired. His wife's still in the park service. He was the senior, whatever you want to call him, Warcom of the rangers. He ran Yellowstone. He's top, top ranger at Yellowstone. And they live right in Gardner, right outside the park. And he just. We just got such awesome access. You know, we have to go back, see where they. They do the bison program and. Yeah, actually where they real. They have real cowboys there, like where the real cowboys work and everything. So kids got super behind the scenes.

[B]

I want to see people. What I'm here for is the people who try to pet bisons or put their kids on bisons for photos.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

I. I'm not a fan of the injuries that occur for the children.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if a fully grown adult Once thinks they can pet a bison.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not gonna lie. I'm rooting for the bison.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, the rangers have got all kinds of smart ass sayings.

[B]

It happens there.

[A]

So the bison. Number one problem. Not a problem. The number one cars.

[B]

Because people are, you know, trying to put a snickers bar through the windshield. I mean, nuts.

[A]

Nuts. We were there. It's like. It was like national geographic. There was. We kept. We were staying on the property. They were like, oh, you should go in the park today for this and take a day off. And going for this. There was a. You could probably google it. There was a. One of the biggest bears in the park. They're all tagged. Had run across the river in this meadows area and taken down an elk. And as soon as it happened, the couple we were with, they're like, you should go check this out today. Because this big bear, which we know is one of the biggest, just took down this elk. And I was like, why? Does that really happen? And then they're immediately like, no, that. That elk definitely got hurt in the rut. Like, that doesn't happen. But this dude had run across this river, killed this big elk, was laying on the riverbank on. On the other side. The rangers are like doing traffic control because it's all these people. We were part of the problem too. Going to see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that. That bear laid on top of that elk for like five days and just gored it. Just gorgeous. Slapped eight. Slap. Eventually he left. Two younger bears came in. Oh, for sure they left. I think wolves came in. I mean, it was just like the cycle of. Cycle of eating. So out of.

[B]

Out of that 11 months, did you see all the lower 48?

[A]

We not on that trip. So my kids have actually been through all 48 at this point. We thought Alaska would be cool, but Canada would have been a challenge driving because of COVID We did. We did kind of a big, lazy counterclockwise loop of the country. We did. You know, having lived in New England for four years, we kind of did most of New England while we were there. So we skipped New England on that trip. We went through kind of up through Michigan. Did. I did the upper peninsula. I was like, oh, see the upper Peninsula. I've never been there. I'm pretty, you know, nothing against anybody lives up there, but I think that's if you're too lazy to go to Alaska to get away from the government, that's where you go. See Upper Peninsula. Like, there's nothing up There.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's some pretty stuff painted. Pictured Rocks is up there. There's a couple. Really? So we went through there, and we probably spent seven months Colorado and west because we had just had less experiences out there as a family. So we did a lot of time out there.

[B]

It's better topographical relief, in my opinion at least.

[A]

Oh, it's amazing.

[B]

Yeah. The north to south Rocky Mountain range is unbelievable.

[A]

Yeah, it's gorgeous. What.

[B]

So in that 11 months, anything that sticks out, what was your favorite? I'm sure everybody might have had something that was their favorite.

[A]

What sticks out for you as far as just beautiful places? I mean, here, like we said earlier, Man Glacier was unbelievably gorgeous. Yellowstone's amazing. We had great access there. I enjoyed our time. Utah is a little quirky at times, but we went through Moab area. Unbelievable.

[B]

Just gorgeous surface of the moon.

[A]

Yeah. Gorgeous stuff out there. Again, it's a quirky place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, don't see myself living there, but, like, we enjoyed the heck. And going to see Arches. Arches national park and stuff like that. Then we did a bunch of stuff on. In California, bopping along the coast. We had a bit. We did a stretch the. The Marine Corps base there, Pendleton, with those. Those camping. That camping area right there on the beach.

[B]

Oh, that's right. I've actually camped there before. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. There's a famous surf break there. Truck trusses.

[B]

I think it is trussels.

[A]

Yeah. And because all the surfers got to come on. They got to come in underneath the railroad track to get.

[B]

That's kind of a hidden gem there. It's for people who don't know their larger. I mean, the US Government owns a substantial amount of land.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

What do they call it? MWR Morale, Welfare and Recreation. So I think it's a website. You go on. And I actually think the Camp Pendleton one, I think you might have to have a sponsor. There is a way that I think.

[A]

The civilian surfers just kind of cut.

[B]

Through the surfers do, but I think people camp there.

[A]

Oh, to camp there. Yeah. You probably get a sponsor or something. Yeah.

[B]

And so there's. There's a whole behind the scenes. I don't even know what to call it. Campground network on military bases.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Some of them are pretty badass.

[A]

Yeah. The one in. Just outside Acadia in Maine. That one. We. While we were in New England, we went there. That place was awesome, man. It's on. I think it's called Great Pond.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just beautiful cabins. Like we were. Right, right. On the water. It was kind of funny. We checked in and you know how the military, you know, there was a pat. There's a group of like eight or ten cabins that were built in the 60s. Then there's a group from the 80s and there was the new ones. And so we went to the new ones and I just randomly picked a cabin online. When we were, I was like, yeah, put me in cabin five, whatever. And we got there, it was like maybe 10 of the new ones. And we were about, you know, 50 meters back from the pond. Beautiful, really nice cabins. You know, big screened in porch and we had a perfect view through the woods down to the water. And I was going for a run, whatever, And I kind of was like, we're definitely going to come back here. I'm going to scout out these cabins. And so I kind of scouted all the other ones out to see if. And I was like, I think we maybe stumble. I think ours is kind of the best spot. We kind of stumbled into this because the rest of them were kind of same distance back from the water, but they were all in the woods. Like you couldn't see the pond. Right. And there was these two. We shared a parking lot and these two driveway, but these two were, you know, 50 meters apart, 50 meters back from the water. And when you sat on both these porches, there wasn't a twig, There wasn't the tiniest bit of foliage in your way. There was trees everywhere. Yeah, but they were all, they were all pruned up like 30ft so you can see. So you can see right down to the water. And I went to ask the woman who ran the front desk, and I was like, hey, we're gonna come back. I was like, I think we kind of stumbled into a really good. Oh. She goes, oh, you're in building, whatever. That's the best one. I was like, why? I noticed. It's like, why did you. All clear just that one? And she said, oh, well, we didn't. I was like, okay, well who did? She said, last year there was a regular Navy chiefs initiation and all the senior chiefs and master chiefs stayed in that one and all the new grunts stayed in this one. And he said, she said they would wake up every morning and have their coffee and it was just free labor. They're like, trim that, trim that, trim that. They sat there and I was like, well, you need to rotate those guys around every year.

[B]

The hidden underbelly of how things actually get done in the military.

[A]

Free labor in the military.

[B]

Yeah. You are about to be promoted to the same rank I am. So let's give you additional duties that are probably outside of my scope of responsibility to give you. So you suffer like I did. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's a good system.

[B]

It is a good system. Not really, but, I mean, pros and cons, I guess. People talk a lot about hazing. I don't know about your experience. Did you get hazed when you came in?

[A]

Nothing. Nothing too crazy.

[B]

Nothing too crazy for me either. But once I realized what the mechanism was, and I'm not advocating for it, even though I do think it has a place, I think the intent behind it really matters because I think you can use it as something that brings people together.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Or you could hammer somebody and hurt them, and I've seen both. But if they hadn't have hazed me the way they were the rest of the guys in my first platoon, I actually would have felt left out.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't mean. I mean, I probably got worse hazing, wrestled all through high school and college.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Probably had worse hazing on my wrestling teams, personally. Yeah. But we still got a little. Little welcome to the team kind of stuff, for sure. Tortured, made. Made to do dumb things, you know? Yeah.

[B]

That's putting it politely, for sure.

[A]

How would.

[B]

How'd you find the teams? I know you come from military family. Even whenever you're saying you have a cousin that was a team, a bunch.

[A]

Of us, actually, we. Nobody. I'm the first knucklehead to make it a full career. Yeah. And that was just timing. 9, 11 and everything, you know, but the.

[B]

But you had family in the teams prior to that.

[A]

Yeah. So my. Let's say my dad. My old man was a Green Beret.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Vietnam era. He was injured for a few years.

[B]

What was his thoughts on you wanting to go?

[A]

He. When I. When I decided to go in the military, he was not a big fan of the Army. He's like, you should talk to your uncle. My uncle was in the SEAL teams, Vietnam Team 1. He goes, you should talk to your uncle. I think he had a better experience there in the SEAL teams than I did with the SF and.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then grandfather fought in World War II, had a couple Marines I came through a couple years after. Me and my brother came through a few years later. Then my. My cousin. Cousin came through. So a few of us, you know, But I like, it's funny, man. Like, I hear guys and I've talked to friends, like, oh, dude, I know. I want to be sealed when I was like 8 years old, you know, and that was not the case for me. I mean, I was eight. I wanted to be, you know, a cowboy. Firefighter. Firefighter, cowboy, dinosaur, you know, and it was. I was just totally focused on wrestling. I was like halfway through undergrad. Started looking where my buddies were going, what was going on. Kind of felt I should serve. I'll do my piece. I'll do a few years. And started doing my homework on the military, what I could do. Looked at flying for the Marine Corps for a little bit. Kind of ruled that out. I got a good, good friend. He's a retired colonel, Cobra pilot guy. He was just ahead of me. But that wasn't really the fit for me. And then started exploring everything special. That's when I talked to my old man, you know, Led to that. And I ended up kind of getting my life threatened. That was kind of funny. But I almost dropped out of college to do it.

[B]

So what were you studying in college?

[A]

Communications, which. I was 95, studying wrestling and 5% had to stay eligible to keep wrestling. So where were you wrestling at? Old Dominion.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So, grew up in Virginia.

[B]

Wrestlers are a hard breed.

[A]

Yeah, we're weird.

[B]

I. I mean, your words, not mine. I'm not going to disagree with them in many ways. My introduction to grappling was six plus years ago through jiu jitsu, which let me tell you, jiu jitsu and wrestling are an interesting battle when you find somebody who doesn't know any jiu jitsu, but they wrestle for a long time.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

They're a nightmare.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure.

[B]

And for as much as people want to think jiu jitsu is this magical art that solves all problems. Run into a collegiate wrestler, let me.

[A]

Know where the fuck that goes. I was a mediocre. I was a mediocre collegiate wrestler. It was funny in the teens, man. Like, so many dudes starting to get into it, and so many guys were.

[B]

Getting into it when I was in that I had an allergic reaction to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when I finally found it six plus years ago, if I could have kicked myself in the back of the head for being such an idiot. Because all I wish is that I had found it earlier, but it was literally, it was such. The soup du jour catching fire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I'm like, whatever that is. I don't.

[A]

Like. This is like a cult right now.

[B]

I can't. I didn't even know anything about it. Well, I go to gay pajama wrestling or something.

[A]

Like, as you get into it, I mean, you know the deal. I mean, you have these athletic dudes. They gravitate towards something. The learning curve does this.

[B]

Well, our old job rewarded ability to learn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, let's be honest.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. So you put that towards a martial art or a skill set lends itself to good performance over a short and long.

[A]

And you're surrounded by. I mean, you've got. Well, I mean, you got hugely into skydiving, surrounded by the.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Best skydivers in the world well.

[B]

And then out at the command, they're like, how much money would you like to hire the best skydivers in the world? And you'll only train with them and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Would 50 hours in the wind tunnel be enough for just you? Like, yes.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I was thinking 100, but okay, 50 will do.

[B]

And they would say, okay, how about 150? I don't know what our budget is here, but I deeply appreciate the system.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I remember guys started getting. Guys are really getting into the, you know, martial arts, mixed martial arts and everything. And I remember being on deployment a couple times. Guys kind of got wind in my background. And wrestling. Be like, hey, want you coming to, you know, working, Just show us some takedowns.

[B]

I didn't know what they were asking for.

[A]

Well, and I never really did. I didn't roll a lot. I was like, guys, I'm not. Look, I'm not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, but if you want a little. Some pointers on takedowns and let me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like. And again, I would caveat be like, dude, this is. This is. Everything I'm telling you is like, I did this for years, but there was never a threat of being punched in the well, rarely a threat of being punched in the face. Right. So, yeah, I remember doing like a basic Russian arm drag on. I guess I say first name Waco Y. So hell of a boxer. I'm not sure if you know that about him.

[B]

I did not.

[A]

Really good boxer. Really good boxer. And I did a Russian arm drag on him, which is like, so muscle memory. I've done a million of them, you.

[B]

Know, And I tell you what, it shuts down all of his boxing.

[A]

And he was. He was like. He was, like, baffled. He's like, how are you?

[B]

How are you?

[A]

How are you doing that? I'm like, dude, you could. You could knock my head off right now if you felt like it.

[B]

Unless you climbed on his back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he would never be able to get you off.

[A]

Yeah. But so. So I would jump in. I'd time to time, like, give a pointer here and there, but I never really. I kind of wrapped up wrestling and kind of got into rock climbing and, you know, I got the.

[B]

What do you think you would have done if you would. If the military wasn't an option with a communication degree, I feel like it's broad enough. You probably could have gone into any industry. What were you looking at?

[A]

I mean, way back, starting undergrad, like getting into sports casting or something like that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, nothing. Nothing. And then. No. Huge. You know, I started seeing where people were going from. You know, ODU is a decent school. It's not a great school. I started seeing where people in my major were kind of going. And they were going in this kind of grunt level at the local news station and stuff. I was like, yeah, I want to do something a little bit more exciting than that.

[B]

When you first started looking at the military, I mean, you already said, you know, you did 20 in a. Wake up. Did you think it was going to be that or did you think you were just going to go test the waters? Did you have any idea that you'd make a career out of it?

[A]

No, I didn't. I mean, I. So I, I did, I did my homework. I mentioned I got my life threatened, I should tell you that, though. So I was. I, I do my homework and I happen to grow up in Virginia beach, so. And I wrestled odu. And so just by default, through rock climbing, I met some team guys. And so I had some pretty good, you know, guys giving me some advice on what to do and at least some direct. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I had none of that growing up in Santa Cruz.

[A]

Right. Yeah. And I mean, and I. It just so happened. The guys that I knew, and I didn't know this at the time, they were all like, you know, warrants or senior enlisted dudes. There wasn't a whole lot of officers in that crowd that I knew. So I. But I really didn't know the difference at that point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, I started doing my homework and I was like, I'm doing this. And then they were like, you know, look, you're going to have your college degree, but you could go the officer route. But they're like, you know, and they started explaining, you know, this is what your path looked like if you do that. And they're like, you know, if you don't enlisted, you decide later you want to become an officer. You can always do that, but you can't do the other. And I was like, all right, so I've, you know, I went the enlisted route and I. I know. Did I have plans to do 20? Absolutely not. I mean, I think you'd. Anybody coming in with their 20 year plan, I'd steer away from that guy. You know, I was like, oh, I'll do my piece, see where it takes us.

[B]

I actually think having gone back as a buds instructor for 18 months, which was if of the duty stations that I had, that was the one I didn't want to do.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Well, I got injured at the command.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And God, that's a story in and of itself, that. Note to anybody listening, a master Chief is an E9. As an E6, you probably shouldn't tell him to go himself in his office.

[A]

Yeah, that didn't go well.

[B]

However, in my defense, I feel like he deserved it because we had had an agreement about have taken some time off after getting injured. And then when he told me that I hadn't done enough, I had choice words that terminated in me having a chiefs board and then getting to choose a duty station out of the command, which I needed anyway because I needed to rehab.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I didn't want to go as an instructor. And I tell you what, man, looking back on that 18 months, I think it was the most rewarding tour that I had. Getting to see and understand the training that I don't know about you, it didn't make. The training didn't make any sense to me. When we were going through, one day you do this and it's a high five. One day you do the same thing and then you get absolutely hammered for it. Why are we doing these stupid evolutions? Why are we doing. I guess I didn't think they were stupid at the time. I just didn't understand them. Like, none of it made sense. You go back as an Instructor, especially after 9 11, you're like, this makes a lot.

[A]

Which phase were you?

[B]

Second.

[A]

Second phase.

[B]

Yeah, this one makes a lot more sense. I was glad that I did it. I was glad that I had that experience and got to see kind of into that pipeline. But I also got to spend. The biggest difference, and this is what was fascinating for me is what class did you go through?

[A]

I started in 203.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had, I had a roll. I did everything but the island with 203.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then literally the day my class was going to the Island, I had to roll and I was all busted up. I had a bunch of stretch fractures and I did. I actually had to do a Double roll. If I had. So you 205 graduated 205.

[B]

So you were actually a year and a few months before me. I was in 212. So six classes a year. Just over a year.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Do you remember any of the guys in your class that quit?

[A]

I remember the, like, kind of moments. We had a set of twins and one of the twins quit. Yeah. And they drive the. And.

[B]

And did you ever talk to him again?

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, they just vanished.

[B]

Your advantage and for people. My class started with 180. What'd your start with?

[A]

I think we were 178.

[B]

Yeah. And the next thing it's like, people are gone. You run to chow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, hey, Bob, what's going on? This, this day sucks. You're like, yeah, I know. Yesterday sucked and I bet tomorrow's going to suck too. And you're just like singing these stupid C130 rolling down the Strip songs. And then Bob's gone and you're like.

[A]

Never to be seen again.

[B]

Never be seen again. And if I'm going to be honest, didn't care. As an instructor, you get to spend some time with Bob.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you get to talk to him about why they quit. And the. The majority of the kids, which is what they were. There were some older people that came through. There was a variety of different reasons, but the number one theme that I heard from student after student after student after student was they got overwhelmed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you come into the buds with a goal of doing 20 years in the community, I actually think you're setting yourself up for failure because you need to make it through the day.

[A]

Yeah, right. Absolutely.

[B]

Let's get through the pipeline. Maybe earn your trident. Because when you went on through that you did STT or whatever, it was same thing. They didn't have the curriculum of SQT that they do now. Like, let's get your bird and see if you can make through your first platoon. Somebody who, I honestly think as an instructor, if you were to canvas people and say, what's your goals? Somebody said, if there was a kid that said, I'm gonna graduate and a guy that said, I'm gonna do 20 years, my money's going on the kid that says, I'm gonna graduate.

[A]

Yeah, I'm gonna. I wanna get through this. We have a four mile run this afternoon. Let's get through that. I wanna get through that. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

The guy was like, I don't know if you guys know this. I'm a pretty big deal. I'm gonna redefine what it means to be a hero. And the other was like, you're gone.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, I think you have to have the mentality going into that, you know, the whole Cortez, burn your ships kind of thing. Like that was my mentality. And I think, I think most dudes that make it through, there's plenty of guys that come back and go through it later when they're a little bit more mature, but which isn't talked about a lot.

[B]

It's not talked about often. Most people think it's just graduate or quit, which, I mean, those are part of the options that happen in between. There is a med roll performance role and an administrative drop essentially. But it's, it's forgotten often that just because you have that one failure, which some people end up defining their life by that failure, they just can't move past that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can pick yourself up and learn from that and go back. There have been. Yeah, there have been. And there's another thing too. Nobody gives a. In the teams. I never once asked a guy, hey man, how many times did you take you to get through buds?

[A]

Right. Nobody cares.

[B]

Nobody give a shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some of the best people, the best operators I was ever around come to find out later on they did go through twice or they on their third time, like, oh, cool.

[A]

I don't, I don't know. I'm. This is completely me just making up a fact or whatever. I would, I would speculate that of the guys that go through a second time, it was just a maturity thing. You went through pretty young, right?

[B]

Yes. Yeah, I was, I was barely 19.

[A]

Yeah. I mean that's. The numbers are stacked against you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, 18 and 19 year olds don't.

[B]

Fortunately, I'm an idiot. And so I had nothing also else to do.

[A]

Yeah. But I bet you got the guys at retread. I bet you a lot. Or 18 or 19. We're a little bit too immature.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Come back when they're 23, they're good to go.

[B]

Well, they also come back with probably four years of experience at a shore duty or a float billet that they didn't want joining the military. So they also now understand what's waiting for them if they were to make that choice again in a low moment. I think if they come from that world, their odds are much, much higher of making it through.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, I remember. I remember guys that we were going through buzz with that had been in the fleet for a while, that they were in that exact. They're like, dude, you don't know how bad it is out there.

[B]

I was just going to say this.

[A]

Suck it up.

[B]

Common sentiment was, I' going back.

[A]

Yeah. Get through this training. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'm not talking at all about the fleet Navy. They do an amazing job, but it is different.

[A]

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. So. But yeah, so, I mean, I, you know, like I said, I started doing my homework on what I could do almost. I was like, I'd been wrestling forever and I kind of got hurt pretty good my junior year. Nothing, nothing, show stopping. But I was ready to drop out. I was, I was like, all right, I'm done with this. I'm gonna drop out of college. And because we knew a bunch of guys in the teams, not a whole bunch of you. I had a friend, he was like. And I didn't know at the time, he was a blue mess chief. And I had no, no idea where. No idea where he really worked or anything. And he's like, yeah, we're going to go. That's awesome. Let's go, you know, let's go out and have a beer, you know, so I'm, you know, dumb college kid, he's like, drags me out. He's like, let's go out and go down. You know, we're down the Oceanfront, all the old school, the Raven, all the old school bars. He's dragging me around Raven. And I'm like, I mean, that was the, that was the stomping ground. Yeah. And I'm hanging out with him and two other guys and the whole night, you know, he just pumped me up. Oh, you gotta do this. You should prep. You should do this. You make sure you're doing this. And it didn't be all this great advice and everything. I was like, ah, this is awesome. I was all pumped up. And then like, you know, probably around near last call, he's like, you know what else you need to do? I was like, what's that? And I'm all pumped. He's like, you need to go back to ODU and register for your senior year tomorrow. And I was like, oh, before. Before I could even get my sigh out. And he's like, and if you don't, you see those two dudes over there? They're going to drag you in the parking lot and kick the shit out of you. And college it is. Yeah. I looked over those two and the one guy who. You would know, I'll tell you later. But yeah, he looked at me like, I Was a pork chop. He was like, hey, man, master chief says I got to kick your ass. It's going to happen. I'm like, so college it is.

[B]

I mean, their advice was correct. It's not like the College 3 isn't going to serve you well. So you go in roll right before the island. God, that sucks. Because as a student, I'm gonna say you. You're in the tunnel. You even know you're in the tunnel and you can see a little bit.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

At the end.

[A]

I mean, the odd.

[B]

The stats. If you make it through pool comp, the stats, they favor.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Graduating.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, not a guarantee, but, you know.

[A]

Gotta be high 90s.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, maybe start looking at the first trident you want to buy, you know, say.

[A]

It's hard to say.

[B]

I'm not saying buy it even, because I actually do know a guy who did that. Dude, I know a guy who got kicked out of buds. He got sent to medical on North Island. He came back in his cammies, and one of the instructors caught the fact that there were three pinholes over his left breast pocket.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

Yeah. So immediately a room inspection was set up, and guess what they found A trident that he finally owned up after. I mean, who the fuck, first off is looking for three pinholes, right?

[A]

Like, yeah, that's a psycho.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean. And you know what I'm talking about. Everybody else is like, what are you guys talking about? The distinct pattern that holds the metal trident on your chest. Eventually, we switched to a. I actually had a trident that was metal but black.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wish I had held onto that thing.

[A]

I think I have one somewhere in my. So cool stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I even had one. I think my first trident I ever got. When we went to Thailand at Team 5, we did the ruby in the eye, or where it is. Don't have a clue where that thing is. I don't even know if I could find anything associated with the military at this point. But, yeah, the kid went to medical but slapped a trident on as a bud student. He was not in training for long.

[A]

Yeah, that's not. You're not gonna last. Yeah, I'm talking about the heat coming down on.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, the fir. The instructor saw it, noticed it, made a comment, and it was as if the chow bell had been rung and instructors, just guys I had never seen, came out of the woodwork. And they're blue and golds.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And that's a good moment for everybody else in the class because you're like, you just. You just start not beating us right now. Yeah, I'll be over here being quiet. It's a green team. When someone argues with the cadre, you keep arguing. I'm gonna be over here.

[B]

You know, that actually happened in my class, too. And I don't understand why anybody ever would think that's a good idea. Your only response is, roger that. Got it. Won't happen again.

[A]

I'm an idiot. I'll fix it.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even if you're right. Yeah, Roger that.

[A]

Yeah, I got it. Not to mention, the guy who's telling you that your footwork is wrong was only looking at your feet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was 17 other dudes looking at the other stuff.

[B]

Some people first take different paths through life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? All right, so get through 205. Walk me through your career.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

What'd you put on your dream sheet?

[A]

Well, unlike you, I. We had the same sheet. I put all East Coast.

[B]

Okay, well, how come you got it? Are you better than me?

[A]

My whole class, basically. My whole class. Got it. Yeah.

[B]

It's because that's just like, we're saying, the walkover. So in second phase, it was for my class, at least. They say, hey, it's looking good for you guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, here's your dream sheet. Put down the. The team that you think you would want to go to. Santa Cruz. Guy 2, 4, and 8. For those of you listening don't know about the teams, even on the west coast or even on the East Coast. Odds on the West. So 1, 3 and 5 at the time. Now 7, now 7 and 2, 4, 8, now 10 is on the east Coast. One of the instructors had mentioned that there were SDV commands, but he said, if given the choice between suicide or sdv, kill yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. I'm not a huge fan of those mini subs at all. So I put down, since I was from the West Coast. 248.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I got five.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that's when I understood that the needs of the Navy trumped the needs of Andy.

[A]

Did the bulk of your class go West Coast?

[B]

Man, they were split up all over the place. It was.

[A]

It was.

[B]

Well, actually, what it was, bulk, west coast, probably two thirds.

[A]

Okay. I think we were predominantly 28 guys. I think we were predominantly East Coast. May have been someone. I can't. You know, I can't remember.

[B]

And then it comes down to what, the command.

[A]

But there's probably. Of the 28 dudes in my class, probably 14 of them put all West Coast. Yeah. You know, and they didn't. They. They telling your story.

[B]

So it's a real dream. It's a literal dream sheet.

[A]

Yeah, it's a dream sheet. Oh, that's cute. That's it.

[B]

Universe is going to sort this out.

[A]

Yeah. If it comes down to we have nothing. Nothing needed. Sure. But yeah, I did say I put all east coast teams. I got orders to Team 4, which at the time I was thrilled. I think it was the best thing going. I mean the team two, they had a pretty good setup scan around Europe.

[B]

Four was doing anti drug operations though.

[A]

Right around running real world anti drug. As close to being in the fight as you could for back.

[B]

Back in the 90s. You must have grad in 90 either. Late 94. Early 95.

[A]

When we graduate. I think we graduated early 96.

[B]

No, that's not possible because I was in 212 when we graduated 96. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Take that back. I graduated 97.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It could have been because we were.

[A]

About roughly two years apart. A little less. Right.

[B]

You were seven classes ahead of me, so.

[A]

Oh, seven. Just over a year. Yeah.

[B]

So it been just over here.

[A]

Yeah, I was, I was 96. You were 97.

[B]

Yep. Okay, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.

[B]

But yeah, at team five, we heard about the dudes. At four, there were two teams that seemed to have been busy on the west coast. It was team three, they were doing ARG Alphas.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And some real world shipboardings and they were complete. And I'm not trying to talk about anybody, but looking back, they were highly permissive.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Oh yeah, Highly permissive. But I mean, guys were locking and loaded and actually going on to vessels and we would hear about anti drug operations or interdiction operations from guys at TF4.

[A]

Yeah, it was, you know, everybody, you know, blown up on your Spanish went through. New guy, first platoon, not a clue what was going on. Didn't even understand what a workup like my head shed like never sat me down. He's like, hey, this is a workup. He's like, okay, I got another training trip going on. Seems like the same dudes are all on these trips, but you know, went through a first. First workup when we're running around with like MP5s and silly stuff like old school mustache. It was pretty cool. Yeah. Mustache flight suit. Dumb flight suits, particularly for diving.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

The dumbest thing.

[B]

The dumbest Goes on over our wetsuits.

[A]

The dumbest thing ever. Like, I need more drag. How can I Have more drag.

[B]

Looking back though, I do wish that at least once I would have rolled with an MP5 on target. I. I would have really hoped I wouldn't have had to use it given it was a 9 mil round best suited for rats.

[A]

Yeah. But damn, I ultimately did end up with an MP7 for the most my time.

[B]

But MP5 and MP7 are not the same.

[A]

No, not at all. Not at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of you guys were rolling MP7. I mean, an MP7, it'll get it done inside of 100. But I tell you what, beyond that. Yeah, yeah, it's a beast.

[A]

But as a troop commander. Yeah, you know, you're going for weight for sure.

[B]

Plus what they have 40 round mags. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

[A]

A lot of bullets.

[B]

I mean they're micro, but yeah, they'll.

[A]

Still mess you up. Oh, for sure. But yeah, So I got through. Didn't, you know, went to team four. Actually, it's funny you mentioned. Did my first full workup and deployment. Did south. Did some JSAT type stuff in South America. Worked with Colombians. Enjoyed it was a good time and liked it, you know, and. And I got into my second workup and you mentioned recently I heard you talking about the record owner for the highest K duck cast. Do you know, do you remember who that was?

[B]

Yes. He was in my green team.

[A]

So he's godfather. My oldest. We graduated buzz together.

[B]

His story is horrendous.

[A]

Oh, it's unbelievable.

[B]

Yeah. So we went to green team together.

[A]

Yep. And so he would have been probably. If he hadn't gotten hurt. He probably would have been, yeah. Green team or so ahead a year.

[B]

Or two before he's lucky to be alive.

[A]

Oh, unbelievable. Well, Brad, you know, we lost Brad that night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that was my second platoon, same guys. We were in the first platoon together.

[B]

And then you were in that platoon with.

[A]

So that was. Yeah, I left that platoon. So I had. So that was my same guys. We rolled over to the second platoon and where that was. That was three quarters of the way through the. No, that was. I don't know if it's still in the workup. It was an interop with the command and I had left. So I had dropped exploratory package. There's a couple guys putting in for officer candidate school and there was two guys that were singing to me that were doing it and I was like, dude, I'm brand new. I'll throw a package in just to learn the process. And then I'll do it after I get a couple of platoons under my belt and I got picked up.

[B]

This was still pre 9 11. Okay.

[A]

Yep, 99. And wasn't really expecting to get picked up. I thought I was kind of going through the motions and I got picked up.

[B]

If you had a crystal ball and if you would had known that 911 was going to be around the corner, would you have put that package in then?

[A]

Yeah, you know, I think about the.

[B]

Because and for people again, who may not understand the enlisted path and the officer path, I think they're, they both can be wildly enriching, but they are very different.

[A]

Oh, for sure, for sure.

[B]

The enlisted path. I mean, if you, if you want to and you can perform at a high level, you can stay operational for a very long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you think for officers? I mean, you're going to get your. Probably your AOIC in a conventional team, your AOIC or oic, you may get a third O at the beginning of that, but they're going to probably get a troop commander and then you're going to be like, yeah, exopath disassociates or you know, your joint tour, all that stuff.

[A]

If you don't make the. As an officer, if you don't make the jump to the command, probably the average is probably eight good operational years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe a little less.

[B]

And I would say on the enlisted side, you're probably finding your fifth gear. At about eight years you have a, you finally have again, personal opinion. I would say at the five year mark you have a good idea of what the job is. But at eight years, especially wartime like you are, you're up to speed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean again, my kind of recent. We talked about resetting our clock as an officer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So yeah, I got picked up, I got picked up for officer candid school before I thought I was gonna get picked up and then I was like, when nothing was going on. And to your crystal ball question, I think about that a lot. Like. So the guy we just mentioned with the K duck, you know what he's doing now? No, he's in the seat. The guy, the guy who you call an. He's in that seat. Okay. And then. And he just replaced another guy from my class. So back to back, same class.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In that seat and. But those are my buddies and I look at them, man. I love those guys and all the respect in the world for their career paths. You know, if on a different path, if I'd gone that route. Yeah. Cool. See where it takes me, you know, bunch of. A bunch of guys I went through, you know, buds with that went straight over to the command as quick as you could for the enlisted ranks. Ended up, you know, up on Robert's Ridge. Getting. Getting torn up on Robert's Ridge. So, you know, you gotta be careful.

[B]

What you wish for.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I mean? That was a rough night. So I think I would change it. Man, I love my path. I got really lucky. Like, you know, you got, you know, some officers, if you're lackluster, you're going to get stuck in crummy jobs. You maybe get two good pumps and a crummy pump and then a desk job. You know, if you're a little bit more good to go, add another two years to that. And if you do the command thing, your JSOC route. Yeah, four or five years to that. So I mean I was very fortunate. I got to be, you know, I was 17 years in before I was even slowing down. You know, that's kind of unheard of. Yeah, I got very lucky. I mean, so. And then again, 9, 11. Yeah. Adding. Adding JSON, you know, adding the command to that.

[B]

Yeah. What. So you got picked up and then what was your duty station upon being picked up?

[A]

Yeah. So you did. Did you do the fork and knife or did you do. You must have. You did. I did.

[B]

So I picked. My commissioning source was through the LDO program, which I heard they actually don't even offer anymore because it was underutilized. Yeah, but which is. It doesn't actually make sense because the package was the same as the warrant package. And I have to believe that there's still warrants on the team.

[A]

Actually.

[B]

I know for a fact there's a message come out.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know why they. What I heard was it was just wildly underutilized, which doesn't surprise me. I think four or five people put in the year that I did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It just was not used much.

[A]

Was that. Did you go through down in Pensacola?

[B]

No, they sent me to Rhode island for four weeks. And while we were in Rhode island, most of the instructors said you're not going to do anything that is of value to you for this week. So just like check in on Friday.

[A]

Yeah. Here's your uniform.

[B]

Basically.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean they were doing everything from like legitimate like underway navigation, radar scope. It was very fleet based, which I totally get because that's what the vast majority of the people were there for. And the guy was with there who was a warrant, they just basically Said to us, like, just make sure you're still alive and check with us on Friday. Yeah, so.

[A]

So I did. I did full on regular ocs.

[B]

That's what I'm talking about. Officer and a gentleman.

[A]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it was awesome, man. I mean it was, you know, I knew what I was getting into. It's Reindeer games. You're not going to play reindeer games with us. And, and it's, it is designed and is an outstanding. To scare the ever living shit out of a young college kid who used to sleep until 10 o'clock in the morning, you know, and you just take, strip them down to nothing. Wake them up at 4:30.

[B]

Yeah, it's the same as cruise camp.

[A]

Yeah, same as boot camp. Just a little bit more gentlemanly. And the DI's that run that place, I mean they're nuts. They're full on nuts. But they are the most professional dudes like the Marine Corps done goof around, man, those guys, I think they have to have worked Parris Island.

[B]

Oh really?

[A]

Before they'll even consider him to work ocs. So they're all great at what they do. They're, they're awesome. And the Navy, yeah, I don't think we put that much, you know, premium on who we send there and. But I went through there all kinds of reindeer games going through that. That was hysterical, you know, because I had four, four young guys that were going to buds in my class and there you are. Yeah, yeah. And here, here comes bad influence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, you don't need to do that. And they were scared to death they would like, no, dude, we're gonna lose our order. We hang out with you, we're gonna lose our orders to buds. It's like, no, you're not.

[B]

That is possible.

[A]

Yeah, you might. Either way, I'm going out tonight. So. But I remember, I remember being there and like it's like boot camp except you're living in a. You saw the things. Four man rooms, open doors, no doors, big hallway. And when I was going through, there was a couple guys that were going through your program because it was at Pensacola then. And I'd see him like tear in my eye like, oh yeah. You know, they're like, you want to go play golf? Like, no, I can't.

[B]

I mean again, I can't speak with a, a deep level of articulation about the Rhode island course. I'm sure it's fantastic. Again, it was more that our career path for the guy I went there with was very divergent for a lot of the actual material there. But it was. It was kind of nine to five.

[A]

Yeah, it was.

[B]

It was not the Officer and Gentlemen.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But I remember. I remember one night, we hadn't been there long and studying for test, and I hear this kid marching, like, just marching like out of the movies, marching down the hallway. And I was like, God, man, give me a break. And I stick my head out in the hallway and I yell for the whole class, was like, get down the hallway now. Let me get the whole class out in the hallway. They all pile out. And I said, get down. And there's like a rec room at the end of the hall. So get down to the rec room, everybody. Drag everybody out of the rec room. I was like, go to the windows. But the whole class up against the wall staring out the windows. I was like, what do you see? Like, parking lot. I was like, what's in the parking lot? Like, nothing. It's like, who parks in that parking lot? The DI's. Okay. Their cars are gone. They're gone. They're at home with their families. You need. Everybody here needs to take a wrap off. If I get one of you, I catch one of you knuckleheads marching at 10pm I'm going to kill you. I'm killing myself. I was like, you're so wound tight, you're going to be terrible in the.

[B]

Navy and you'll just burn out.

[A]

You're going to burn out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I made him relax a little bit. So we had fun. We had fun. Another. We had. The DI came in and it's all time management and reindeer games. Your buzz instructor? Yeah. He came in and dumped. Dumped a. Kicked a trash can down the hallway of belt buckles. He's like, shinies. We're in the middle of studying for a test. It's gonna take. It was like damage control test or whatever. We needed the night to study. And he just came in and take away some time, you know, and throws these belt out and everybody runs it and scurries up and they start shining them. And it literally takes like 45 minutes to an hour to shine one of those to the standards that they want. Stupid. You're shining the inside of a belt buckle with a Q tip.

[B]

Strong.

[A]

Pretty. Pretty dumb. And I was like, whatever. I walked down the hall with a trash can. I was like, bring me. Bring me your belt buckles. Bring me your belt. I walk down the hallway. I recollected all of them. I was like, I'll shine them. I'll Shine them. Go back to studying. Sent my whole class back to study and, you know, put the can over in the corner. Didn't touch him. Study for my test. We all passed the test. Next day, I went to the drill instructor, you know, knocking on the door, doing a silly announcement stuff. And I was like. And then he goes, put it over there. And he, like, digs in and realized I hadn't touched any of them. They were all a mess, you know. And then he just, you know, just beat me for like an hour.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Push ups and push up and jump know. Sweating my butt off, you know, for an hour. I'm like, okay. And he was like. He was happy that I did it. He's like, get out of here.

[B]

Yeah, he understands.

[A]

Good job.

[B]

Not only what he was doing, but what. Why you did what you did.

[A]

Yeah. So. But, you know, sorry, sidebar.

[B]

But so then you go back to the team's butter bar.

[A]

Got got through that, and then they said, hey, we need you to change coast. And you had mentioned team three and team four were kind of. So I. Looking into team four. I was like, well, I did jungle thing with team four. Let's do something totally different. I had heard team three was actually doing some stuff, so I got to go to team three. And then we were. We were doing some. Some boarding stuff. It was nothing. Nothing super sexy compared to what we were doing a decade later. Yeah. But at the time, it was kind of the best thing going. And so went to team three, and you're. You were like 12, 15 years in when you got your commission.

[B]

12.

[A]

12.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, I was like five and change.

[B]

I didn't want to get a commission. I was stalled out. I got hurt when I was doing my LPO tour, and they counted it as incomplete when I got Medevax home. So I put a chiefs package in.

[A]

Because you got shot.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What were you thinking getting shot?

[B]

I know I'm obviously a subpar operators and seal and probably human being, but I put a cheese package in twice, and my record, I will call my record at least average. And I finally heard. I mean, and you know, the deal. They're not. The people who go to these boards and work them. They are not supposed to talk about what happened. But I knew somebody who was there, and he basically said, hey, man, I saw what happened to your record. And they just looked at it, and they don't count your LPO tour as complete. And it got wiped off the table. They're not even looking at your record for chief. So I had just gotten a buds and a guy had just started his LPO tour and as you know, it's two years at a short duty command. So I would have had to wait two years for him to finish then for me to do two more years. So now we're at four total to have it count to put my package in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So probably five more years stuck at E6. And that's when I started looking at ways that I could. If I was going to stay in. I want. I wanted to figure out a way where I could at least continue up the ladder, even from just a pay perspective.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And that's how I found it. It was not something that I was seeking out or had this long idea that I was going to do earlier in my career.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. For me, the commission thing was just. I was like, I kind of saw the path of leadership roles and with my first film was pretty rough and it was some good dudes, but it was, it wasn't that great. And we had a great deployment. We did. We get some cool stuff. But the personnel, the guys that were kind of the guys that were doing three platoon guys, it wasn't the best bunch of mentors ever. And I saw some pretty crummy examples of leadership and I was like, man, whatever, man. I don't. I won't be the best officer in the history of this community, but I'll damn not be the worst. You know, so that was my. For dang. But then, you know, I got. Got commissioned, went to Team three. And so my. Much like the OCS Reindeer Games, you know, there was the, the prior enlisted Mustang, you know, shenanigans you could get away with a little bit. Like, I went. They put me through a Trident board. Did they really? Oh, yeah. Hi. You know, and, and they put. But it was fun because I mean, like, and I, you know, I studied for it and did my best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But I was also very comfortable. Like, you already had your dream. You're not gonna, you're not gonna fail me. I'm like, you're gonna give it, you know.

[B]

Well, you already had it.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. But did they let you wear it.

[B]

When you first got there or did they.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, you mean ocs.

[B]

No, the tried. Like if they put you through a.

[A]

Trident board, I'm like, no, I was, I was already.

[B]

That would be tough.

[A]

Like, hey, you don't have to wear that.

[B]

Be like, get.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Not a chance. You want. You better come try to take this.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Yeah. This was not easy to get. Yeah.

[B]

Put a lot of effort into this. And just because I have a different collar device, I'm not taking it off.

[A]

Yeah, I did have to take off one of those ocs. When you first check in ocs, you can't wear anything.

[B]

Do they let you put it back on at some point?

[A]

Back on is. I have another dumb OCS story. So we were there for. I think. I think it was like two weeks. You couldn't wear it. Yeah. Anything. And they figured after about two minutes who I was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but there was a. You had to put on your dream sheet what you wanted to do. So I had SEAL teams, EOD and pilot. And I was too old to fly, but I put it on on purpose because I was only going to go to teams, you know, and the commander who was in charge of the air side of the house, they changed the age requirement for flight. So he walked into our class and he rattled off like six names. And it was. My name was on the list. Five of the guys were backseat and if, you know, NFL's or naval flight officers.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Wizzos or something like that. Whatever it is.

[A]

Yeah, the bat, Whatever. Not. They weren't pilots. They're naval aviators, but not pilots.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And they all of a sudden they were eligible to go become pilots. So they were doing backflips. They were thrilled. And I was like. And so he called us all into his office and the next afternoon and he's like, all right. He didn't even ask. He's like, so you're gonna go to medical. You gotta get this done. This done, this. And they're just telling us what we're gonna do. And finally when he stops talking, I was like, sir, I'm not. I'm good. He goes, what are we talking about? I'm like, I'm. I gotta order. I'm going NSW SEAL teams. And I've known signal. And he just starts chewing me out. He's like, you're an idiot. You know what the wash rate is? All washout rate is you're never gonna make it.

[B]

I am familiar with the wash rate. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I was like. And he kicks me out. And then he called me back in like three weeks later, four weeks later, to. He still wanted to fill that billet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And at that point, I could wear my stuff. And as soon as I walked in, I had my rack and burdened everything. He's like, you smartass, why didn't you tell me that? I was like, you're. You're tuning me out. Yes. So being a team three going through a board was kind of funny. Just spoke my mind very openly at the board. I got to ask him some questions that a brand new young insign would be, oh, sir, I would never do that. And I was like, yeah, I would probably. Yeah, I'd break that rule for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and they're like, what? And I'm like, come on.

[B]

Yeah, saying what? But at the same time, in the back, their mind going, yeah, that's the right.

[A]

Yeah, that's pretty much. Yeah. No brand new incident from the Napoleon. Say that, but. And then. Yeah. So I deployed almost immediately. I got there, they said little shenanigans. The ops boss, he's out now. Can't remember. Kevin Williams. Yeah, Kevin was ops. Yeah. Maniac.

[B]

He was the. Another wrestler.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I went to a green team with him as well.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He used to like to take a shower and then ask people and challenge them to wrestle while walking into his cage nude.

[A]

Kevin's nuts.

[B]

He is out of his mind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would lock myself in my cage with the lock on my side when he would do that. Because he would come into your cage. But he was the officer at BUDS when I was there. That's when we reconnected. Yeah.

[A]

He's nicknamed Puma. Possibly ugliest man alive.

[B]

I could take the pee out of that.

[A]

But he was there, and he's like, he's a nut. And we connected. That's the first time I met him. We connected with wrestling, and we hit it off, and we're hanging out. I was working for him, like, two weeks, and some guys got in trouble on deployment, and he's like, hey, give me a list. I need. I need a list of guys I got deployed. Somebody that can deploy immediately. I got to be sniper communicator. Give me a list. I was like, all right. And I was a sniper, and I was a communicator from my enlisted days, which were like 15 minutes ago. So I put the list, and it was like five names on the list, and mine was the very bottom one. And he looked at it and started chuckling, you know, he's like, I didn't tell you to put your name on this list. I was like, well, you just said sniper and communicator. So, yeah, I threw my name on list. And the other four guys, none of them wanted to deploy. They were like, I don't want to play. I'm doing. I'm going to work. I was like. He goes, well, will you deploy tomorrow. I mean, basically like 36 hours. I was like, yeah, man, send me. So I, I got to team three. I was there for like a couple of weeks and then did a quick deployment for like, like half of their deployment, maybe like three or four months. Got to do a little bit of the sniper overwatch for some boardings, which is pretty cool. And then came back and got into an actual workup.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah.

[B]

Where'd your career take you from there?

[A]

Well, 9, 11 went down while we were there deployed. Probably like 12 days after. We didn't. We didn't get over to Afghanistan. We were earmarked to go to Afghanistan. We went to Bahrain. We were there for about a week, or not a week maybe. I'm gonna. Probably almost a month, two or three weeks over there gearing up to go to Afghanistan. And then the call came and they made a decision. There was some politics between my, my platoon commander and the guy who was in Afghanistan. They didn't like each other. So the guy in Afghanistan was like, send me the other plane. Send me the other platoon. So my platoon was ready. Our platoon commander, my platoon was ready to kill, like, because we knew we weren't going to Afghanistan because this is a tough pill to swallow relationship. But it was. I mean, you know, this is the second best thing in town, actually. That was Chris Cassidy. His name's out there. Chris Cassidy, the astronaut. Retired astronaut. Now. That was his platoon that went. So they were early into Afghanistan. Chris is a great friend still. And we did the boarding thing. Did a full month, full six month deployment of doing the boardings, which is cool. There's something to do. You know, we got take out a bunch of ships. I officially got my pirates qual because we commandeered a ship one day. 1.

[B]

Is there an official qual?

[A]

Well, I think if you commandeer a ship in international waters without being told you're allowed to do so, then you're a pirate. And so our boss was a little bit timid.

[B]

I would give that on your DD214.

[A]

Yeah, I want to. Because our boss was a little bit timid about this one ship and it kept playing cat and mouse in the Iranian mortars. And he was like, you're getting that? He kept. He kept telling us to abort. And I literally turned the radio off and I was like, guys, we're going. And we took it down. So the guy's like, I think we're pirates. Like, we are officially.

[B]

That would be such a dope line on your DD240 pirate Yep.

[A]

So, yeah, did that. Had a great time there. And then kind of while I was on that deployment, that's when there was talk of Team 7 and Team 10 coming to be. It was a really weird turn of events that was actually on. That was happening immediately as soon as we deployed. As soon as 911 went down, they were talking about adding teams and then they did something weird. They cut all of us that were going to eventually. And I think it was from all three teams. You probably experienced the same thing. Like they cut us to Team 7, which didn't exist. It only existed on paper. And then they cut us like TAD back. So I was a Team 3, sent the Team 7 on paper, but TAD for deployment to Team 3, it was a really weird thing.

[B]

Why would they do that?

[A]

I think to justify that they can start building a command. You had to have bodies somehow.

[B]

And full disclosure, I've never been good at paperwork.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm not the person that they would ever come to to say, hey, how should we structure this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that. That system perfectly describes the military and the bureaucracy associated with this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, okay, hear me out. You're going to be here, but through three different paper cutouts that will somehow allow us to do something later on. But don't worry, you're going to be here.

[A]

Don't worry. It's all going to work out.

[B]

That's the military in a nutshell.

[A]

Yeah. So we were on that deployment knowing. Knowing that we were coming back to stand up Team seven, which was going to be new when we came back and I wanted to come back to the east coast. I knew 10 and 7 were going to get commissioned on the same day. So basically contacted team 10 and the detailer and said, hey, if it's neither here nor there, they're getting commissioned on the same day. Can I come back to the east coast? And they hooked me up with that. So I got to come back to team 10 and be a plank owner. That's cool. Team 10. Yeah, it was kind of cool. I was trying to. Again, military snafu once. My buddies, all my buddies were at seven when they got commission and they were like, hey, like we talking a couple days later on phone or something. Like, you know, your name is still on the list. Like you're. I was like, what? Like I missed that whole dumb paper shuffle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They didn't take me off the list. So technically for. I think they fixed it later. But technically for a period, I was a plank owner at 10 and 7, which were commissioned on the same Day.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

So I wish I could have gotten a plaque from seven, because anybody would know would eventually be like, okay, that's impossible. Yeah, you can't be a plank owner at Team one and Team two at the same time, you know?

[B]

Or can you?

[A]

Or can you? So. But yeah, I did that. Got to be a plank owner at Team 10. Did, you know, full regular workup. We did kind of winter warfare workup, that whole deal. Deployed to Afghanistan with Team 10. That was the winter of 2003, 2004. That was first deployment to Afghanistan with those guys. And great, great, you know, welcome to the party kind of deployment. And yeah, that was. We were. We were relatively, you know, relatively busy driving around, doing a bunch of, you know, trying to do the right thing. Yeah, we were early Operation Mountain Storm, kind of early phases that were Task Force Dagger with Team three. We're Task Force Dagger. And then. But yeah, so did that deployment. And again, like, not at that point. Like, not everybody was guaranteed going to Iraq or Afghanistan or, you know, Iraq had kicked off at that point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And heard a Team four was going to Iraq, so I volunteered to go over to four. So I did two AYC tours and I was kind of. The first one was like, they put me. I literally got sat down back to Team three. I got sat down by the skipper. He's like, hey, we got this. This guy's. He's a lateral transfer. He's kind of weak. He's a mini platoon commander. We need a strong officer in there with him. So I'm putting you in with this guy. And I'm like, dude, I'm like an E5 on steroids. I got commissioned five minutes ago. I'm trying to figure this whole thing out. And then we had this LAT transfer guy who was a nice enough guy, but he was just not making it, you know.

[B]

So let me ask you this, because I encountered some people like that. Why is the SEAL community so bad at just solving that problem at that level and canning them?

[A]

Yeah, because what.

[B]

What I have seen happen is exactly what you described. They recognize. I'm not going to say it's a flaw in. In the leadership of the person. Let's just say that they're not well tooled for whatever reason. Maybe it's a performance, maybe it's a EQ or an IQ problem. Maybe it's all of those things, but it's identified. Instead of shitkinning that person, which would do a great service, in my opinion, to the SEAL community, they bring in somebody else to buttress them, which doesn't do as a great service to anybody. And it actually puts that person who is in the technical or the leadership role due to rank. It doesn't make them look good either. Especially when the people underneath them like the E5 mafia, which is a real thing that you will not find anywhere on doctrine. Everybody in an operational element instantaneously knows if there's a shitbag and a dude that's put into that position to help them and they stop going to the shitbag and they go to the person who's actually junior, which is directly undermining the chain of command of the military. Why don't we just shit can them? Yeah, we, as if you and I are going to solve the problem.

[A]

I've always thought that. I mean I have some good buddies that were lateral transfers and they're, I would say 1 in 10 figure it out.

[B]

I mean we can strip the lat transfer out of that. For whatever reason, the core leadership is identified.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have watched the can kicked down the road to a degree that it had consequences much later and those consequences could have been mitigated if they made that harder decision up front.

[A]

Yeah, I think one of the weaknesses.

[B]

Of the SEAL community, at least when I was in.

[A]

But I think if you look at like, and I, you know, again, I'm speaking this much informed. Right. I mean, but like, I think we're reasonably informed. We've been around the community enough. But you know, if you look at like, if you're not cutting it as an Army Ranger, and I love the Army Rangers, not giving anybody a hard time difference. But if you're not cutting it as Army Ranger, I can kick you, you're still going to go be a soldier someplace. I can kick you off to 82nd, 101st, blah, blah, blah, kick you back to being a soldier. Everybody in the army is basically a soldier at some level. Right. If you're not cutting it in the SEAL teams, like there's, you know, you're a soldier in the SEAL teams, you're an assault, you know, there's no place to put you. So I think there is a tremendous amount of pressure. Like, dude, it cost us over a million dollars to get this guy here work with him, you know, And I don't agree with it.

[B]

I mean some people can be worked with, but we all have a glass ceiling. There are just some people who aren't going to perform at that level. And I, and that. I get it. The investment is there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The sunken cost fallacy where We've put so much time into this guy, we got to keep him going forward and. And it, you know, what's this guy going to do? Go back to the regular fleet Navy? Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would rather see that than somebody lose their life because of poor leadership.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That guy would probably be, you know, a rock star in a lot of different places.

[B]

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[A]

That guy. So we had that guy got. Did get relieved and then my jocker. And then the same thing happened the next time. And actually by that point, same thing.

[B]

Happened to him again.

[A]

No, no, no. To my next platoon when I was kind of like the grim reaper of ayc. He's like, I don't want that guy in my ay. I got, I got back to back, back to back platoon commanders relieved. I didn't do it. I mean, I got. It's the same thing happened. They were like, hey, we had a prior enlisted and then this weak officer and he was not good. And when we had to get him, we were going to Afghanistan. Like, dude, we cannot go to Afghanistan with this dude. You know, he's a train wreck. And so he got, he went away. Later. I, during my platoon Commander Tour Team 4, I had a really weak AYC who I had to let go. And that guy was like, he was physically hard enough to get through buds. You know, he could do some of the job, but he was just too slow to process. He couldn't learn quickly. We talk about learning quickly and he just wasn't cut out for it. And he was a very devout guy. To each his own, right? But hey, you want to be super devout, come to SEAL teams. Stand by. You know, whatever.

[B]

I've seen it, I've seen it go well and I've seen it be a real struggle.

[A]

Anything. I'm not talking about just religion. I think, you know, anything you want to wear on your sleeve, like people are going to torture you about whatever they can torture you on.

[B]

Especially if at any point in time you show them your underbelly yeah, exactly. And if a comment gets under your skin, welcome to a flashing button the size of a pizza dish on your chest. And everybody's just gonna be like, yeah, that guy.

[A]

That guy. That was exactly what happened. And the guys. And guys were just torturing me. And he. We finally had to let him go. And we did it very politely. That guy was a chaplain. Like that.

[B]

And I bet. And he was amazing.

[A]

He's the only chaplain in this. In the Navy. He's still wearing his trident.

[B]

Good for him.

[A]

That's probably an admiral now, for all I know. Yeah, but he was. He went to the Chaplain Corps in about two seconds.

[B]

You know, I would so much rather see that than forcing a square peg into a realm. Bud, as you and I both know, it's a great. It's a great filter. What would you describe it as? It's definitely a crucible. It's not. I can't say it's a selection course because it's basically physical tasks that you have to complete and not quit. Green team, I would call more of a selection course because. Performance. So what would buds be?

[A]

It's a. I mean, the crucibles.

[B]

Yeah, it's a crucible. A filter, maybe, but every. Even like a pasta colander, sometimes noodles.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Slide through.

[B]

And just because you're physically tough and you're unwilling to quit. I mean, and I think we can be honest, let one of the SEAL team secrets out here. Buds is not select for intelligence. How do I know that? Because I'm sitting here. You might have a better chance of graduating if you're dumb. If I'm being honest, you're like, fuck it. I don't even know what we're doing, but this sucks. But I'm not going to quit.

[A]

Next thing you know, you're like, well.

[B]

I've been at this for six months and now I have orders to a SEAL team. So point being. Obviously, tongue in cheek on that last part, but point being, it's not a course that actually screens for capability as what I'll call a SEAL operator.

[A]

No, no. For sure. So you have to.

[B]

And again. But as the leadership and all of this, we went through this and I never got to a leadership position. I was a 03 when I retired. The. The head shed should know because they went through the same program that we did, that there's going to be. Let's call it 5% that slides through. That still has to be handled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just feel like the earlier you handle that, the more it saves lives.

[A]

Yeah. For sure. For sure.

[B]

But the community, in my experience when I was in, was very unwilling to do that.

[A]

Yeah. It's all basically the same thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's. Yeah. And again, it's a million plus dollars to get a brand new guy on board. Work with them, make it work.

[B]

I mean, what does it matter? I mean, when was the last time the DOD passed a audit? Survey says never.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But they.

[B]

You think you're gonna miss a million dollars.

[A]

Yeah. No. But buds get you. It gets you someone who is just hard as nails. Yeah. Who's never gonna quit no matter what. Yep. You're not. You're. It's such a weird physical. I don't think one. Not that it's a. When guys are like, oh, it's the best shape of my life come out of Buds for me, that's kind of a red flag. I'm like, I don't think you've ever been in really good shape. If that was great shape for you.

[B]

Because you're over trained.

[A]

You're. Yeah, you're. You're like, if I told you to put a refrigerator on your back and walk up and down the flight of steps for. Until I come back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You would be able to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but you're not in a.

[B]

Your hip flexors are smoked. Most guys have at least some semblance of shin splints.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Overuse injuries on their joints. Oh, and oh, by the way, the people I'm talking about are largely in their early twenties.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Destroy. It's destroying your body.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't really get better from there.

[A]

Yeah. But that's what they're looking for. They want someone's like, hey, you're running. You know, I ran way too many miles on stress fractured legs and pushed it. I should have rolled way earlier than I did. But I was terrified of getting kicked out, so I sucked it up as long as I possibly could.

[B]

Super common.

[A]

And then. Yeah, you're just trashing yourself.

[B]

But when did you decide to go or when did you put your papers in for selection?

[A]

So I. Let's see. I did again because of my prior enlisted time. So we don't. We went to Iraq with Team 4 for my platoon commander. We did a regular workup. And then about maybe two thirds of the way through the workup, they're like, hey, you're doing psd. And we're like, yay. We didn't know. No one was very excited about that. Did you ever do any of that? Or.

[B]

We.

[A]

The Personal security details.

[B]

Yeah, I was just gonna describe that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the listener, think of it as the best civilian analogy is gonna be Secret Service.

[A]

Secret Service, yeah.

[B]

Yes. The first time I. They pulled our Green Team class, we went to High risk SEER up in Washington. And the squadron that was originally tasked with the car's eye detail, they were trying to rotate people back. So they took. And they knew that, I believe it was Dynacor was the civilian organization that was going to take over. They basically needed to bridge it for 45 to 60 days. So we did essentially that. Augmenting the left. The last of the Blue Squadron guys that were over there.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

It is, without a doubt, I think, my least favorite military role because it was completely reactive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God, it sucks.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

No worries.

[A]

The. It was. Yeah, we were bummed. We were bummed when we got told we were doing that. We were definitely in, like hunting down bad guy mode. And we're excited about that. And then we got told, hey, we're gonna do the top. I think it was the top seven dignitaries taking them over. I went home immediately and started doing all the research I could on these top seven guys. Six of them had thick British accents. Cause they all came from money and they all grew up in the UK and you know, they came back when we invaded. They're like, oh, I can be the Prime Minister. Cool. I'll come back. And one President Talibani, he was a Kurd and he fought Saddam's whole life. Never got lived in a cave when he was young. And he was. He was the only one that was, you know, true and true that never left. So I went in like the next day and volunteered. I was like, I'd like to protect this guy. And at that point, my ops boss was like, well, you can have whatever you want. No, no one even cares, you know, so volunteered to. To take over that detail. And it ended up being. It is totally reactive. But he was the only guy that refused to live outside. He refused to live in the Green Zone. So we were living out in the gen pop. We had a pretty decent compound. We were right on the Euphrates. But, you know, we had Pesh murder guards guarding the whole perimeter with, you know, multiple two or three, two, two combat, two car bombs, try to come in and blow things up and a couple of small things here and there. But it was, you know, it was reactive. Wasn't great, but. And, you know, in the end, I tried to make the best of it. And we got our guys to rotate. I. I was stuck Doing it the whole time. That was basically his shadow and tried to rotate my guys. We had a DA force there to rotate the guys through, get some DAs under their belts and all.

[B]

That stands for direct action for people Listen.

[A]

Yep. And.

[B]

And then on that. So is on that deployment where you put in your paperwork for slow.

[A]

I was again, because being a prior enlisted guy. So typical officer can come through, graduate Annapolis or whatever college they go to. Go to buzz, do all this training, and then by the time they're in their first. Their first full workup, they're really. They've been commissioned about two years when they get to their first team.

[B]

Yep. Maybe. Oh, two.

[A]

Yeah. So when you're. But if you're prior enlisted, you go from officer Candidate school five minutes later. You know, like I said, the guys that went through officer candidate school from. With me that were going to buds, they end up getting the teams two years later.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so I went Officer Candidate School. Boom. So basically when I did my platoon commander tour, I was two years junior to all the other platoon commanders that were there.

[B]

You know, what do they call that list?

[A]

Just a linear list. Yeah. Yes. By rank, by your group. You are.

[B]

That's so up. You were two years junior. But your operational experience.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And so funny too, because I was. It was four of us. I was always ranked number four out of four.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is just comical. Yeah. So I'm the worst guy here. Like. Well, you're the.

[B]

Again, it describes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The beauty of the military.

[A]

It's a perfect. Yeah. And. But yeah, so I did that. But I was too junior at that point really to screen for the command. And so I knew I needed to do something else. And I had done, you know, two OEF and one OIF deployments the. Right after 9, 11. And then I want to do something different. And I kind of rolled the dice. I. I had done an augment and went and did an augment with the command. It's just when officers go over. Not just officers, people go over and plus up. So I did that. Got. Got to see what was going on over there. Liked it. And the commanding officer that was there was coming back at that point. They were decommissioning SDV Team 2, the mini subs. And I kind of rolled the dice. I was like, well, if he's going to be the skipper there, if I go there and I screen positive, maybe it'll find some mercy on my soul and let me go. So I did roll the dice a little bit. I went to SDV When I finished my platoon commander tour, I went to SDV school, which is cool. It's a miserable job.

[B]

It's niche. For sure.

[A]

It's niche. And I mean, there's nothing cool about being underwater for, you know, the better part of a day like you and.

[B]

I definitely agree upon that.

[A]

Yeah. And. But I got to go to school. Really cool. Really cool. Capability. Learned it. Went to the. Went to the command, was a task unit commander there, and we were just getting into our workup and I did scream positive and I went to see the skipper and I was like, hey, sir, I know I owe you two years here and I'll give you a rate every day of that, but I just screened positive. Was wondering by chance, you might want to let me give that a shot. And he was like, go.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Like, he didn't blink. He was like, go.

[B]

That was a good chess move on your part.

[A]

I got a little bit lucky, but. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if I'd call that one luck. There was more strategy involved in that. You were kind of tracking the person moving around, plus that person had a deep understanding of what you're going to be getting into.

[A]

Yeah. If it hadn't. If it hadn't been a guy from the command in that seat, I don't think I would have been able to pull that off.

[B]

Oh, he just would have slid you your orders and said, hey, do you see this end date? Yeah, go ahead and screen after that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You do owe me two years and I will get a credit. Yeah. So, yeah, did that. And then. Yeah, went over to the command and we did. At the time, they were trying to get more body. Seriously. They did two green teams that year. So we did green team. We were the winter hell week green team. We did. We classed up in January of 07.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

To come over the command. So you were. We kind of. We kind of.

[B]

I left in 06. Yeah.

[A]

So we're like this.

[B]

Yeah. And like we were talking before we started. I don't even remember if we had started, but. Yeah. People think the community is so small, but. And it is in comparison to the size of the Navy. But I just. You know, the people you worked with and everybody else, you might hear a name here and there, but other than that, I mean.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, people are reputation and it's just siloed. And you see guys walking around the cage space. Yeah. I always thought they should have taken the cage. They may have done this by now. I always thought they should have. Instead of all the guys from each Caribbean jam together. I always thought they should mix all of it up.

[B]

It's an interesting concept.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think the only reason they would argue against that is if you had to do a blowout, it would be a nightmare trying to get people.

[A]

Could be. Could be.

[B]

You'd have to get this.

[A]

There's also a nightmare when you had the entire row of guys packing out for something at the same time.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

When everybody's dumping into the aisles.

[B]

Oh, there's. It's not like there's going to be a perfect solution there. But the aggregating everybody into the space, that's somebody's Excel wet dream. Trying to figure out that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I think an argument can be made for both, though.

[A]

I saw it too, man. As a new guy on the east coast, you know, the compound used to be that rectangle and then there was some stuff that groups and medical and supply and stuff was in the middle. But once you were in the front door of Seal Team 4, you could walk to STV2. Team 2 and Team all in the back compound. So as new guys, like, as a comms guy, if I needed batteries and you're over team two, I'd go and beg you for some batteries or stealing from you or whatever. So we were interacting a whole lot more.

[B]

Wasn't like that on the west coast.

[A]

Team five.

[B]

It was actually separated from team three and team one by the BUDS compound. Team five was on the northern side. Yeah. And team three and one probably could have done that.

[A]

When I. When I got to three, three and one were kind of sharing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You'd interact a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

5 and 7 were the bastard show. Not in a bad way, but they were off on their own.

[A]

Yeah. And now they got that monster thing down the strand.

[B]

Have you actually been and seen it?

[A]

I haven't seen it.

[B]

I haven't either. Do you have any desire to?

[A]

I mean, if I'm out there, I'll go see it. Yeah. I've got enough buddies. They're, you know.

[B]

How long have you been out now?

[A]

God, man. Coming up on A deck. Just hit a decade or. No, I got out in fall of. I was in 95 to 15, so January of January 15, I retired.

[B]

I only ask because it's when I first got out, I really missed it and I wanted to be. And while I was living in San Diego, which is pros and cons, like, not a total detachment from the community that you came from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you're also not in that community anymore. So You're. You're. You're in the bleachers as opposed to being on the field.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The farther away I've gotten from it, and I don't say this in a bad way, I'm more and more less interested in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm so happy that they. I mean, they basically took the damn neck model and built it on the west coast, which is fantastic. Good for them. I'm glad they had the budget. I'm glad that they're able to do that. I. I don't know if I have any desire to go check it out.

[A]

Yeah. It's just a bunch of buildings.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think people. When people. Even when civilians get tourists, it's like, I'll give you a tour. It's kind of lackluster. Yeah. All the training happens away from here. Yeah.

[B]

Just.

[A]

This is really just an office building with some cool toys here and there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know. Yeah. That's a.

[B]

Have you found that you've missed. You miss it less the farther you've gotten away from being in, or you think about it less?

[A]

Yeah, probably. For sure. You know, I mean, I. You know, I. I just know that there's the next generation that's just doing great and kicking ass and working their tails off and doing it, and I.

[B]

Just realized they don't need me.

[A]

No, they don't.

[B]

My input and usefulness has expired.

[A]

No, I mean, that train goes so fast. No, they will beg and beg and beg you not to get out until.

[B]

I was just gonna say this thing.

[A]

The second you get out, if you.

[B]

Leave, this community will not survive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You come back the next day, they're like, oh, shit, we thought you were gone. We already got a guy to do your job.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's. The entire system is designed. Guys. Guys get wounded. Guys get killed. Like, the. No one's irreversible. Like, you know, yeah, you're great. We'd love you to stay, but if you don't, we'll replace you in a heartbeat.

[B]

They never really tell you that, though. They do tell you that you're irreplaceable in as many ways and forms and shapes as they can. And the pressure to stay in is definitely real. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's valuable. And this is me looking back on a change. I guess I wish I had had in myself that I didn't recognize. I think reminding yourself that your usefulness and expiration date is on an egg timer is probably healthy. I think it would actually, at least at the Tail end of careers. Help people orient towards the next and set them up for success.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah. How long did you stay at the command for?

[A]

Let's see, seven to the end of 11. Like, just over four years.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Yeah, it was good. So I did a few pumps with blue, and then I was actually the first. First non plank owner at Silver.

[B]

So I'm assuming they just populated that squadron with people from the other ones, right?

[A]

They did a pretty good job. I can't remember exactly how they did it, but there was. There was definitely no, like, dumping of, you know, dumping of guys we don't want. It didn't happen that way. It was. I can't remember. I think they may have even.

[B]

Well, you can't plus it up with an entire green team class because that. That would not serve the purpose either.

[A]

I think they may have even said, hey, each one of you give us a troop. Right now, I think. I'm not even positive, but I know they did. They did a pretty good job. It was a bunch of good dudes. They stood it up. They did a great job.

[B]

Well, it has, upon creation, has to instantly be operationally capable. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean. Yeah, you can't fuck around with that.

[A]

Yeah, that was. It was interesting too. Like, I bumped into some buddies that went there and that. That was the only one that wasn't in the main building when it first stood up. And I remember going over there, catching up with a buddy and be like, oh, let's go over. Go see such and such. And he'd never even been up on the second deck and like. And I was like, God. Just drove home. Like, you guys are so isolated. They need to fix that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you don't know anybody here. You know, I've heard the.

[B]

The new compound is pretty nice.

[A]

Oh, it's. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

[B]

I've never been there and seen it. I've only.

[A]

It's nuts. Yeah.

[B]

Again, I don't know. It's interesting, too. I don't even know because of the fact that I host this podcast. I don't even know if I'd be welcome there. People in the public eye. It's really hit or miss with guys, you know what I mean? I try to do the best that I can and be super honest about my experience. And I always tell, like, I did the minimum amount of time that I was obligated to do there. I didn't want to leave, but I did leave for reasons that were out of my control because I'm a Shitty seal and got, you know, leapt in front of an AK47 round. It's like ah.

[A]

Hit me like.

[B]

But yeah, it's. I say that because I know some guys who are not welcome back because they're in the public spectacle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It might be because of how they conduct themselves and I. And I just try to tread on it so lightly and be cautious. But it's another one where like the torch has been passed. I'm so stoked that they exist and that they have evolved and I'm just.

[A]

Well, guys get really, really sensitive about basically, you know, whatever you do for life, you're trading on the brand. You know, I worked it.

[B]

How do you not though? Like.

[A]

No, no. I mean that's what we do. It's a natural thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're doing it and I'm doing it and so it's okay. It's your. Your. Some of your experiences and that's what you're building something else on that part. That's who you are as long. But you know, we did sign a lot of paperwork saying we wouldn't talk about certain things, which I never do. Which you don't. You know what I mean? And I was like, and if you want to, you know, if you're going to crank out a book. Hey, share your experience. If you're going to crank out a book and talk about things other people did, people aren't going to like you very much. You know.

[B]

That is correct. And then your name might end up off of a certain squadron walls.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So like Right.

[B]

I don't know if people know this but power drills work in two directions.

[A]

If you do it the right way. You ever read Touching the Dragon? You know Jimmy. Yeah. Jimmy did a great job, man.

[B]

Jimmy. I knew God, I've known Jimmy for a long time.

[A]

Yeah. Fellow. Yeah.

[B]

I met him through in and he would augment courses and God I mean he kind of he himself up before you go into the command.

[A]

Oh yeah. He caught a wire right in the stadium.

[B]

You know the down planes were they. I mean I was it a down blame for him? I mean because I think they had.

[A]

Separated but it was too low and.

[B]

The frogs went through a rash of incidents where they were talking life flights and he was a part of for sure. Yeah. And so I will say this. I love Jimmy to death. He was a different man after that accident.

[A]

His wife says Kelly, Kelly's flat out say this is not the dude I married. Like he's a changed person.

[B]

And then when he got her overseas, man, he went through it. Yeah, he went through it. I'm so happy to see that he is off on a different path.

[A]

And, you know, you know about the school thing, right, with him. You know, he's just. I think he just graduated. Yeah, he just.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, also going Back to Yale. 54 years old as a freshman at Yale.

[B]

I am sorry, young Yale undergraduates, for anything that Jimmy might have said, any feelings he may have hurt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also, I'm so glad that you got exposed to him, because he's awesome.

[A]

Yeah, he's great. He's one of my favorite people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he. But. But his book, he did the right way. His. His career path was amazing. Unique. Great timing, right place, right time for a bunch of amazing stuff. Didn't share anything that was on a level that he wasn't supposed to share. Didn't take credit for anything. Didn't do. And I don't think. I don't really think anybody gives him a hard time for that, you know?

[B]

So I am in the final. I was this morning, Shockingly enough. Some days I can't sleep, so I come in early. I did the final draft of the book that I agreed to write.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There are zero war stories. Not a single one, really, Because I. It. That is, to me, entertainment. I talked about failures. I talked about the first chapter is how I lost my trident. The first time.

[A]

I like to say the first time. Hey.

[B]

I got asked once by Jocko when I was on his podcast what rank I got in the most trouble in. And I had to think about it deeply. And my answer is, I think it was an equal amount across the entire spectrum. I consistently in draw probably not the best person to work for, and I'm sure some of my bosses were like, you motherfucker. But the book itself is like, mistakes that I made or lessons that I learned while in the SEAL community. It has that lens, but it's not completely. It's not a sealed book. It's not like, hey, this is what BUDS is and all this. But this is what I learned, and I hope that somebody else can do something with this. Would have happened to go through the path that I did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Zero war stories. None.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The section where I wrote about when I got shot, I think it was one paragraph. I was like, I got shot. I landed on my back end of war story. That's literally it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No heroic actions. I got pulled around a corner by my buddy who made the shirt you're wearing. He literally dragged me around the Corner. I argued with him about whether he should cut my pants. So I.

[A]

Move your hand.

[B]

Like, direct pressure.

[A]

It's got a pair of trauma. My favorite pants.

[B]

Fucking arguing. And like, God damn it, that's it. Like, you're right. Like, there's no heroic story or tale or anything like that. And I was. I. I got asked to write that book for years, and I finally did it, because what are the experiences that you and I have, mean, if we can't pass them on to somebody else?

[A]

Yeah. That's fair.

[B]

And I think that there's a way that you can do it without treading completely on that. But also, I earn the right to do with what I want to, with my experiences, but I'm responsible for how I message that. If people are upset about that, that's my fault.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I really hope that. I mean, I don't, you know, military recruiting right now, whatever it's at, like, I hope that it can get conveyed to the. The next generation of guys that are on the fence. Like, hey, I think I want to do this. Like, yeah, what an amazing. Like, if you have an ounce of it and you. You're thinking about it, I think that's going to give it a go.

[B]

I think that is going to shift. The last. The last four years were pretty rough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On the military. And I think. I mean, I hate that they're an extension of the whip of politics as it drifts left and right. I think there is going to be a changing of the narrative of what service is and the people who do serve. I think it's going to be a little bit less of a social experiment. I think that'll help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think talking about. Not that everybody does this, but, I mean, I talk. You hear young people saying, why would I want to serve in the military? This country sucks.

[A]

Like, whoa, dude.

[B]

Whoa. Why do you say that? Where did you arrive at that position? Have you ever left this country? Have you ever seen the world beyond your fucking Instagram feed?

[A]

We're gonna spend about 15 minutes in Somalia. Come back.

[B]

I was gonna say, like, five, but.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's crazy, man. But I just hope that sharing some stories can do something good for the next generation, you know? And.

[B]

And it's not even about the story. It literally. The title of the book is me called Drown Proof, which has a tie to, you know. Sure. And it's funny because people would think that seals can't drown. You and I both know that's not the case. Quite a few seals do drown, but it's about, how do you survive when the world gets crazy? That's probably the deepest lesson that I learned in 17 years in the community. How do you a. How when you're asked to do something, which, I mean, some of the things they asked us to do were ridiculous. In hindsight, you look back, you're like, hey, of course. We were like, yes, we're gonna like two bags full. Here we go. You look back there like, wait a minute. That was stupid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nobody else. You guys asked us to do that because nobody else would do it, didn't you, you sons of bitches. But then you figured how to thrive in that environment or what did we learn? Because in my opinion, the SEAL community is a community full of very average people who are asked to do extraordinary things.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

You know, like it. There are some outliers. You're like, holy shit, this dude should be stored in a cryo freezer. And he's. He is Captain America for the most part. I don't know about you. I serve with people from every religious background, every upbringing from wealth to being extremely poor. Left side of the political spectrum, right side of the political spectrum. Dudes that were fat as dudes were Iron man capable and qualified. But at the end of the day, they were exceptionally average. They would just ask us to do wild. Okay, how were we able to do that? A lot of it had to do with leadership. A lot of it had to do with the training pipeline. A lot of it had to do with setting your goals, how you view your goals, how you work your way through chaotic situations. Okay, those are all valuable. Let me see if I can package this into something that somebody could do something with.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. I mean, the problem solving that you see in the SEAL teams and particularly the command, I think because you have a little bit more autonomy, a little bit of freedom, left and right boundaries get pushed a little bit further. It's. It's pretty impressive, man. I mean that's, that's what it's all.

[B]

Stuff is to me looking back now is non linear problem solving. Yeah, we're going to put you into a dryer and give you a complex problem and it's going to be tumbling. We need you to figure it out in real time.

[A]

We did got to do some pretty cool stuff. We're working out of Shiron, Afghanistan and great deployment and a bunch of assets. We got to do kind of a big deal thing. It was pretty cool. And there was. Because of that, there was a bunch of assets in country and then talking about problem solving, we kind of like raised an eyebrow, like that was done. And these assets are still here. And they weren't going anywhere for at least a day or two, if not longer. If we can come up with a use for those, they could become ours. Yeah. Because it's easier to leave them here than to fly them back to the.

[B]

U.S. i mean, let us help you save money for logistics. Exactly. I mean, I don't know what jet fuel costs, but probably a lot.

[A]

Yeah. Cheaper. Cheaper to leave it here. But we, yeah, we stood up the, the daytime. The day VI thing. Yeah. So we stood that up.

[B]

Ballsy, man.

[A]

That was, that was.

[B]

The day VI means day vehicle interdiction. Vehicle interdictions. It would follow, I guess under direct action.

[A]

But it's a daytime helicopter based pounce package.

[B]

I mean we're talking. Yeah. And people can look it up on YouTube if they want. I'm always super hesitant to talk about ttps, but let's just say.

[A]

Yeah, you're not, you're not going to find anything on the Internet that shows what it's really like. Yeah, I can guarantee you that.

[B]

But let's just say also, I mean the electronics that we had access to turn night into day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I don't know about you. I liked having the tactical advantage.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

When you switch out nods for sunglasses. Giddy up.

[A]

Yep, yep. No, it was, it was definitely, man, we. That's.

[B]

I mean you are, that's another level of risk and strap in.

[A]

Yeah. But the, that, that crew overall, just the. Well, first of all, we were, I mean like all kidding aside, we were like. We were a scalpel. We were. I mean, collateral damage was non existent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we just, we went dozens and dozens of these missions just going after these guys. Worst of the worst. And they were complicated, man. You're like. There was pack of motorcycles one day, three Suburbans the next day. You know, families involved, bodyguards involved. And like so clean. Just getting after the bad guys. It was, it was. And it was so fast paced. It was nuts.

[B]

And it all comes back to, I would say a trifecta of leadership, problem solving and planning.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think under that is.

[B]

Of course layers of like currency competency, those screening process and all of those things. But again, at the end of the day, the present, like these guys realize if they drive around at nighttime, helicopters find them. Now they're driving through daytime areas and difficult places that are gonna be really dangerous. But if we want to give them. Here's the problem.

[A]

We need to Solve that problem.

[B]

Figure it out.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's just, you know, it's everybody. Well, regardless of what industry you're in, but you want performance and you have to have good people. You know, there's not a line of dudes and SEAL teams that like, oh yeah, I was going to play in the NFL. I ripped that contract up. Like, no, we don't have that caliber of athletes. So there's a couple dudes that are pretty, like I said, pretty exceptional. But they're the outlier. Yeah, no, they are. You got a bunch of pretty fit.

[B]

Dudes and some dudes couldn't see their dick if they were.

[A]

And some guys who could push away from the table once in a while, you know, but, but yeah, you got, you have good people and you get high functioning, cohesive teams with, with good or better leadership and then that's, that's going to get you, that's going to get you the performance, you know, and that's what we were very fortunate to be a part of. You know, it'd also be part of something where no one's making any money, you know, and if you're, you see somebody across the compound working on a problem, you can drop it. If you have an idea on how to make that dude be better and help him, you can drop everything you're doing and just help that guy get better. And there's no, like in the civilian world if I just drop everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just go help some other team. Like my year end review is not going to look good. Like we noticed that you stopped doing your job for two weeks. Oh, yeah. But Mike needed help. Yeah, like that doesn't work.

[B]

Yeah. It's not your job.

[A]

Yeah. Not your job. You know, so. But that, that happens all the time in spec ops, you know, guys, like, what was.

[B]

So you did four years there. How many years had you been in the teams when you left the command.

[A]

Right around the coming up on 17.

[B]

Okay, so you maybe had one more billet left.

[A]

They. Yeah, I kind of like, when I left, I knew I wasn't coming back. We can talk about that if you want. But the, I think the detailer, actually detailer is the guy who gives you your next set of orders, your job. So I was an officer with about 12 years commission time.

[B]

I think we can agree that the detailer is the dude who rotates through there, the woman who sits at the decks. I heard she's gone.

[A]

As in like the famous one is gone.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, the little ladies in the white tennis shoes really rule the world.

[B]

So she wielded so much power.

[A]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[B]

Inside of the military.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a reason why they rotate people through duty stations for short periods of time. So you can't have this entrenched level of power. That woman probably had dirt on every.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

She was always kind to me. Thank you very much. I was always gonna say your name.

[A]

I was always in a good graces, you know, and. Yeah, but I think the detailer because I was about 12 years Commission Service and at that point, for a regular officer, not a prior enlisted guy, you're like, okay, this guy's got 12 years. If I send him to school for two years, he'll owe me on the backside.

[B]

Master's program.

[A]

Yeah. Like if I send him to school for two years, he'll owe me. He'll owe me double that as a payback. I'll get my 20 years out of the guy like that. If he's on the fence at 12, I'm gonna get him for 20 or more if I send him tool.

[B]

It doesn't play with you.

[A]

Well, I don't. I literally think he made a mistake. I don't think he looked at my 17 years. I think he saw 12, he's like, oh, this guy's a 2,000 year group. Hey, you want to go to graduate school in Monterey? I was like, yeah. I was like, I can't believe you're offering me this.

[B]

What is that? Naval Postgraduate School?

[A]

Yeah, Naval Postgraduate School out there in Monterey, California?

[B]

Yeah, just south. It's on the other side of the Santa Cruz is up here and that's on just the other side.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why do you. Why did you say you think or you knew you weren't going to go back when you left?

[A]

You know the old saying, you're only as good as your last op.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I really hate that saying.

[B]

It's really true though.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Did you have a shitty last stop?

[A]

We did. We did. We. We had a pretty rough last stop.

[B]

And you can talk about it whatever level you want.

[A]

Yeah, it didn't end well. We can get into it a little bit, but I knew so that that didn't go well. And it wasn't just the op, it was the aftermath, the way things were handled that I was like, yeah, I'm not sorry, guys. You know, a little bit too much emperor naked in that one. And I still love the community. I mean, can't say nothing. Yeah, it did just a couple of bad decisions were made. And it wasn't really at the tactical. Some bad stuff happened at the tactical level. Some worse stuff happened elsewhere. You know, when wagons got circled extreme who they were circling around and who was taking care of who. And that kind of stuff. Yeah. And I was like, no, I'm done, guys, I'm done. So I knew, I knew when I left, I was like, I was done with that. And I was so close to retirement. Yeah, good.

[B]

I was going to say, as you were describing that situation and you see that happen. It sucks when the facade that you want it to be shatters. And you see at the end of the day, again, it's human beings and they go into self preservation mode when. From you and I from the, I mean what do they tell students from day one of buds, the person to your left and right is more important then you.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then you see way later on because things don't always go right. And you have this. Facade's not the right word. You have this idea behind a piece of glass. If you want that, you want it to be. And then one day it gets shattered.

[A]

And you're like, fuck, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's, it's, it can be heartbreaking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also I hope that it happens to everybody so that they understand it's just people. And people aren't perfect. And there's no perfect systems either.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So be very cautious what you dedicate your life to.

[A]

Yep. Yeah. So I, I, that happened. And we can circle back to that. I left there. I think, I think the orders to Naval Postgraduate School were almost by mistake. And they. Because he saw the 12 and he didn't see the 17.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he sent me to graduate school and I came out of there with like, I was like, am I 18 and a half coming out of there technically owed three years on the back end, which good luck getting that one out of me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so then I went to, I went to advanced training. So for the East Coast. So I ran, I was the oic, which is a, which is an executive officer tour. So I did the, I ran the, Ran the East coast schoolhouse was it essentially trade.

[B]

It traded.

[A]

No trade at trade at trains and platoons. Advanced training. You own all the schools.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

Preach. Schools, not schools. You know, so I was, I mean really for civilian translation, I was the dean of a schoolhouse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, our schoolhouse blew stuff up and jumped out of planes and did all that stuff. But 2,500 students through. I can't remember. We had 100, 100 guys, 17 courses, whatever. So did that.

[B]

Did you consider it all staying past 20?

[A]

No, I was pretty much done. I was, it was good. I enjoy that was a great exit tour working there. Graduate school was fun. Partnered with a couple of great buddies, one of whom is the number two guy. You may have seen him doing push ups during the Army Navy game. He's.

[B]

It's just weird. I don't know why people do that stuff.

[A]

Whatever. So he's the number two? Yeah, I guess he's the common on the students is the number two. I'm not sure but he's number two guy. A great guy. We partnered with another guy and wrote our thesis and we wrote our thesis about talent. Talent identification and retention. So the identifying, identification, grooming and retention of high potentials because really in the officer ranks we had a major, you know, retention problem.

[B]

And I think that though comes from people they, I mean about the six to eight year mark and you know, you're looking down the window of okay, I wanted to come into this community not for an administrative role largely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've done my third O. I've done my aoc. So third officer would be. Honestly, it's a metric of having a lot of officers. So you're not even. You're third in the chain of command. Third O AOIC, assistant officer in charge or 2IC, second in command. And then your OIC, you'll probably get a troop commander job and that's, that's probably going to be at a conventional team. Your last battlefield role.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, and you see this in the aviation now. I mean all, any of these highly, you know, higher end things in the military, whether you're flying a jet or your nuke or SEAL teams or something like that. Nothing against anybody else in the military. Just those, those groups draw in a little bit overqualified people because the job is pretty rewarding. You talk about selling an addictive product at your coffee shop. I mean the SEAL teams like you talking about an addictive.

[B]

What are you talking about? Never experienced that.

[A]

Never. Never. Not once. There's a, there's a, there's a funny old. I'll find it from show to you. This is a funny old saying about the oss, the precursor to the CIA. Yeah, you heard that one. It's about, it's about how I've heard of the oss.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

There's an old. One of the old guys wrote this thing about how addictive it is.

[B]

How could it not be?

[A]

I'll find I'll find it and show it to you. But it's our job was, our job.

[B]

Was the most bizarre and maybe unique role on the planet again. And there's other military units that do exactly the same thing. I'm not saying that we're unique in that, but.

[A]

No, anybody in that realm. Army Rangers, Green Berets, Delta, you name it.

[B]

Like, so if you cannonball into that pool though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you're told, hey, you got to get out of the water. But you can, you can put the towels on the, yeah. On the benches, but you can't get back in the water. Yeah. You're going to have a retention problem.

[A]

Yeah. That's what happened to, I mean, you get, you know, this incredibly addictive job. That's a grind. Your pay, your pay is terrible. Yeah. You're away from your family constantly. You're burying your friends left and right. Right. But the job is so addictive, it's got to stay and they stay and they stay and say and it'll eat you up. But loved it. Wouldn't trade it for the world. But I think the, you get these high caliber people to come in and do it. And on the officer side, we talked earlier about the enlisted kind of keeping. Keep running gunner for quite a while in the enlisted ranks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I know guys in mid to late 40s still going, you know, and the window for anybody listening, I've always equated to pro athletics. It's very much like being in the NFL. It's you know, 22, 23 years old, probably your average new guy to like mid to late 30s, man. You start pushing it, you start pushing it. You know, north of 38 years old, you're getting a little bit on the older side. So it's, it's kind of like pro athletics and. But you get these guys come in overqualified, super smart, flying some whiz bang, multi, you know, multi 100 million dollar jet. You know, the guy's genius, you know, flying this crazy thing. Or in the SEAL teams like overqualified. And then you do, you get really the stuff you love for six or eight years and then you grab a desk and the desk still deploys the desk. You're still gonna be away from your family, but you're no longer doing all the real fun stuff that you love.

[B]

It's, you know, watching it on an ISR screen as opposed to being on the ISR screen on the other end of the sensor.

[A]

And then you look at, then you look at, you know, then life just catches up with people. You know, you're. Oh, my brother's. My brother's a knucklehead and he's. He's working at Goldman Sachs making five times what I'm making. You know, like I'm out of here.

[B]

Boat's awesome.

[A]

Yeah. You know, start seeing the real world out there. You're like wait a minute. Yeah. You know it was cool when I was doing the fun stuff, but I think that's. So we got into.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we wrote the thesis about the retention problem. Got to do some fun stuff because of that I got sucked into. We overhauled that year. We overhauled the way we did the whole interviewing process for all the young officers trying to come in and which was really cool. The, the head guy. Captain was in charge. We put together a panel. We about eight of us on the panel or seven and kind of. We had to, we had to sort of level the playing field and we each kind of had our lanes. I asked a lot of moral dilemma questions and so we each had our lanes and because, you know we had almost a thousand applicants and we had, we, we whittled that down on paper to a little under 500. So we did 400 some odd interviews over six months. And that was all the academy guys, all the ROTC guys.

[B]

Oh, just go to nsw.

[A]

Everybody. Yeah. Prior enlisted guys, everybody. And that was, that was wild and hysterical, man. Like it was. But we had. It was kind of mind numbing too because we had to ask the same stuff to make it fair. So hundreds of interviews. I'm like oh, here goes Bob again. He's gonna ask that same question. Oh my God. You know, you just don't out. But the board got fun. Was, you know, occasionally after even one or two questions the guy would be a resounding thumbs up or thumbs down. Like I love this guy's in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like the first question he was in.

[B]

Now knocks over left field wall.

[A]

Right. You know what I mean? Or this guy's definitely out, you know. But we still owe him the next 45 minutes. They got to finish the interview. And so those are the only ones that ever got to be kind of fun because people would kind of, they would take it, they would take it in different directions and ask some fun stuff. And it was mentally an escape for us because I'd asked the same question hundreds of times, but one. One in particular sticks in my head was. And these guys couldn't debrief in between. They didn't see each other. But I had the co captains. I don't know where these guys are today? Co captains of the Navy lacrosse team that came. And I just remember one guy was particularly tall. One guy was on the short side. That's all I remember. They were both resounding, thumbs up, like within two questions. And, and when it, when it came my turn, I normally ask this more dilemma question stuff.

[B]

And what was your favorite question you asked on the moral dilemma in the category? Yeah.

[A]

Without getting crazy into details, I would make it very binary and it would be a lesser of two evils. Like, hey, you're a troop commander. You got some guys pinned down. They're in a terrible situation. If you don't call in fires, they're definitely, you're gonna lose half, if not all of them. But if you do call in fires, the bad guys that you're that are attacking our guys have run into a civilian compound. If you do call in fires, you're definitely gonna be taking out some civilians.

[B]

Sounds like we're gonna have some SIV cash.

[A]

Just a, just a binary. Well, but you know, you and I, but to a 22 year old kid coming out of college, it's, you know, and then, and then the whole thing's like, there's no right answer to that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Particularly for a kid.

[B]

No, it is a lesser to evil questions.

[A]

But the, the, the fun part came when anybody would flip flop because whatever your answer is. Well, no, my guy signed on for that. They're professionals. I couldn't possibly kill a civilian. You know, you're gonna get destroyed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then if you flip flop now, it's just worse, you know, so that was the kind of stuff I would get into. But these two guys, where they were both resounding yeses and came my turn and I was happy that I got to ask something other than my standard questions. And I said, I said, hey, so, and these guys, I mean, it's a naval academy, so they're very buttoned up. Yeah. You know, it's kind of homogenous, homogeneous crew there. All same uniforms, all same haircuts. And they know the deal. They know, yes sir, no sir. And all that stuff. The OCS guys are like, huh? Yeah. And they have no idea.

[B]

I don't know, bro.

[A]

Yeah, maybe, you know, and yeah, like you're, you're telling the Navy captain's SEAL dude right now. But I said, so you're the captain of the lacrosse team. I hear that. And he's like, yes sir. I was like, I heard that's a pretty scrappy crew you got there. That Team. Like, yes, sir. My cousin played on the team, two of my cousins played on the team. And I said, that's a pretty scrappy crew. I'm like, yes, sir, pretty scrappy. I was like, I've also heard that the water polo team and the wrestling team are pretty scrappy. Is that true? They're like, yes, sir. I was like, all right, well, answer me this. If we went out to the practice field out there and I told you I wanted your team to line up down one sideline and on the other sideline, I was going to put either the wrestling team or the water polo team, and you had to fight them, which team would you put on the other side of the field? And without missing a beat, both of them said, water polo. And, and so I immediately, being a wrestler, I immediately, I was like, what? So I wrestled all through college. Are you afraid of wrestlers or something? And they were like, no, sir. I was like, so why? Why water polo? And without missing a beat. And these guys did not get to inter debrief in between. Yeah, almost verbatim, both of them said, sir, there's a couple guys on that team I'd like to beat the out.

[B]

Of more personal grudge.

[A]

To have the guts to say that at that interview was pretty cool.

[B]

So I like it.

[A]

We had some fun. That was a fun, fun stretch.

[B]

But what'd you do when you got out?

[A]

So I did, I did Monterey, did the thesis, did the training, advanced training, got way into that stuff, that interview stuff. Over the course of the thesis, we went out and interviewed a whole bunch of companies on how they do retention. And I was, I wasn't job hunting at that point, but I was kind of industry shopping. Just wanted to see what was out there.

[B]

It's a great mechanism to do that.

[A]

It was great. Yeah. And I got, we did a trip to Dallas, we did a trip to Boston, San Fran, New York, and just interviewed a boatload of companies. And it was, it was a boondoggle, but it was productive for the thesis. And I then just kind of dusted off a bunch of contacts I had made, reached out to a boatload of people and just started interviewing. I wanted to do something different and I only interviewed with a couple of finance places, but I connected with this shop up in Boston, Wellington Management, which no one would really have heard of their. Everybody in finance knows them. They're very behind the scenes, they're on the buy side and pretty prestigious place. It was really, really cool, but very, very collegial place. And I met some really good People there who brought me in and more or less I got hired as like the ops boss. So I was an operations boss.

[B]

What was it about the financial sector that drew you in?

[A]

I wasn't really, I wasn't some guy who was like day trading like you know, in the teams and stuff like that. I wasn't, I wasn't overly drawn to the industry. I was just. It was the people I connected with, some good people there. I interviewed with a couple tech companies and some other shops here and there. But just had a good connection with this crew and it seemed like a good place to get my feet wet. And I was like, well this is probably 50, 50 at best if this first job will stick or not. But I put a lot of research into it and ultimately it didn't. I left there. I did three years there. So it stuck for a while but learned a lot. I mean I was the, I was the, I was the business manager which is basically like for the military and operations boss. I was operations boss for the global trading him. So I was like right there on the desk like right out of the movie. Like you know, fixed income stocks and bonds buy trade by trade. We had 138 people in our line. I think we had 99 traders.

[B]

So basically you were the Wolf of Wall Street.

[A]

I was basically Leonardo DiCaprio. Yes. Yeah, we were. Yeah.

[B]

Vodka tonics and cocaine for lunch every day.

[A]

Yeah. Start your day with quaalus and eye drops.

[B]

How you know it was time to leave that job.

[A]

I just, you know, it was great people. I enjoyed my time there but realized like the path to get to what I could contribute. I would be very disruptive if they're like this guy could lead a team here. And we don't let people lead a team here unless you've been here for like 17 years.

[B]

So even if the person who hadn't been there for 17 years could do a better job.

[A]

Yeah, not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah. So that, that was a big part of it. I was like, you know, this has been cool. And it wasn't. There was no hard feelings. It was, it was by and large really great experience.

[B]

You know it's a very self limiting ideology for a company to have though.

[A]

Oh yeah, for sure, for sure.

[B]

Prioritizing time and saddle over performance. And generally it's. You're going to have the better performance out of the person with the time and saddle and experience. But damn man, what's your metric? I think the metric should be this guy is crushing. We're making more money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Frank, go retire to the golf course. Here's your exit golden diamond parachute, whatever it is, you know.

[A]

And I about, I was disclaimer.

[B]

I don't know about the financial market so don't take any of my advice.

[A]

Well, I had been, I had been there for about, I did three years there and I was probably about a year and a half in and I kind of identified like I probably should have jumped into the sales team. And so I started talking to the sales team and that was a better fit because God was trapped. I was trapped in a building, trapped in a suit every day. You know, I thought, you know, in the SEAL teams I had a desk a few times but you don't realize how little time you're. You're desk in the SEAL teams. Yeah, like I'm doing two day workouts and I'm still doing skydiving so not really a desk job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just kind of saw the sales team. I was like I should have done that. So I started talking to some of them and I kind of had some connections and they call it Taft Hartley World. This is the finance thing. It's union World connections in there. So I talked to the Taft Hartley team. I was like I think I can help you out, you know, leverage my background, get you in front of the right people. And ultimately they kind of slow rolled that it wasn't going to happen and which was fine. And then I was like all right, I'll move. So I kind of took that concept and went out on my own and connected with a couple of other finance shops and started. I helped two different finance shops kind of build they call like the. In that world they call it a value add team. And so I kind of helped two different shops build out their value add team. And the value add team is just helping them get FaceTime with their, their customers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which are their customers are in that world. They're wholesalers that are trying to sell, sell their financial, you know, products and they're trying to sell it to financial advisors who's running your money for you. That makes sense. So I did that for a couple years and then I the pre van fan tour pre driving the country started shifting into taking some experiences that I had and I said I hate the you're only as good as your last op. Took that I had taught that as a lesson learned thing when I was still in the teams a few times and at one point I was taking my ethics training which in the finance world is just completely cover your butt cover CYA crap And I was like, there's got to be a better way. And, and I kind of saw like, hey, there's this, there's leadership development stuff, there's team building stuff, there's ethics. And I kind of, kind of pulled it all together and now I'm teaching a series of courses based on all that experience.

[B]

So that's what you're doing modern day?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the main, the main focus.

[B]

Where do you house that is? I mean, I'm assuming this is in person or is it online curriculum as well?

[A]

No, it's, it's. I go to, I go to the customer.

[B]

Yeah. How do they find you?

[A]

Website and word of mouth. Really?

[B]

Well, what's your website?

[A]

Patriot Leadership. Ld.

[B]

You had to think about that far too long.

[A]

It's Patriot Leadership. The website is patriotld.com yeah, but yeah, doing, doing those courses which are really fun. And like I said, the original corps, the original one was a mission I was in command of and it's not, it's out there. There's tons of stuff on the Internet about it. So not, not speaking on a level I shouldn't, but also two, it's a heavy subject. We was, it was a hostage rescue that ended poorly. Mistakes were made. The hostage, the hostage was inadvertently killed by us and bad decision that caused that to happen. And a couple of bad decisions after that snowballed into making it a bigger deal than it, you know, could have, could have ended very quickly. Mistakes are made. An individual who, you know, messed up and took the hostages life just come clean immediately, probably would have changed the whole path.

[B]

But panic that person know immediately.

[A]

Yeah, okay. Unfortunately, yeah, but, yeah, but complete panic mode.

[B]

Yeah, I have peripheral knowledge, like I said, I have a mutual friend that I went through selection with who was right there with you. And yeah, I had never asked him that. I had more knowledge about when he encountered that information. I wasn't aware if the person directly responsible knew in the moment.

[A]

And I just, you know, I went back and started building these courses out and that's the first of several now of different missions. And they're not all missions that ended poorly, but a lot of mark because that's where we kind of learn these rich lessons learned, you know, and I saw, I saw that. I was like, you know, there's, there's, there's so many deep lessons learned about this and it's human behavior, you know, and it's. And I gotta be able to take this to any ministry and I've taken it to finance shops to nascar, to transportation companies, to military supply companies. Like you name it, it works. Whatever again, wherever you want performance, you want that high, high functioning teams with good leadership. Like this is, that's what this is kind of how is it received when you present really well, man. And people love it. And the thing about it is like it's getting people. I got, I kind of nerded out on getting into. Not like the, you know, adult learning theory is kind of all the rage. You know, how do we learn? I went back and I went back and did my, my MBA a couple years ago. Right. Right before the pandemic went back and didn't. I went to Duke, which is an amazing program. I shout out to all my classmates who carried me through that program like you read about, barely survived that, but started seeing different case study models and how they did the teaching and I started paying attention about, you know, when I did do well in a class there, like how I learned personally. And it gets into adult learning theory, you know, so like we learned by experiences, we learned by storytelling, experiential stuff. And so kind of went that model. And, and it's also fun because you know, basing the courses we teach on real world stuff that's in our world, you know, old hat. But like it's, it gets people so out of their comfort zone. Like if you. Oh yeah, you know what I mean?

[B]

You're up there looking like you're a monkey juggling chainsaws. Yeah, I'm sorry, what did you just.

[A]

How much time, how much time did you have to make that decision and what hung in the balance? Yeah, you had five seconds and that. You're lucky. Yeah. And. But yeah, that, that. And so you know, if you took. You name the industry, whatever, man. Anybody who's had a snafu lately, you know, airline industry, there's been a few snafus. You take a bunch of people from the airline industry and you build a case study and a course around a mistake that's made in the airline industry. They know the business too well. They know that industry too well. It's not, they're not. You take a, you build a case around something in the operating room and you teach it to a bunch of doctors, bunch of surgeons. Like they know, they know the right answer. Yeah, like, well, I just wouldn't do that or I would do this or you can lesser of two evils. You're going to have to, you know. But by getting people totally out of their comfort zone, you do those, those rich lessons learned that are Just completely conveyable. It's so. It's been super fun, man.

[B]

Yeah. You can nest that knowledge inside of a. Of a story is not the right word. A scenario or situation that has nothing to do with what they do for a living but can have immense impact. Do you enjoy public speaking and presenting? Because I'm assuming that's how you do it. I'm. Are you on stage or when you present these. Are you in more of a classroom setting where larger groups of people or is it a mix of both?

[A]

Mix of both, really. Those are, those are smaller groups, which I really enjoy. I've done plenty of keynotes. I, you know, it's fine. Keynotes are great. It's. But you just, you don't get the same. You get in front of three or four hundred and five hundred people. You just don't, you know, it's just less interactive. You don't get the interactive. You know, you do a presentation to 40 people and then you open it up to Q and A, you get into some good stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but so those, the smaller group is more fun, you know.

[B]

What was your Highlight from your 20 years in the SEAL community? Get anything that sticks out. I'm sure there's a beautiful topography of highlands along the way, like a mountain peak. But is there one. Do you have a Mount Everest? One that sticks out?

[A]

We kind of touched on the daytime vehicle interdiction. That was that, that, that, that, that was. I mean, it's hard to explain, man. You're just, it's a. You know, without getting into ttps and tactics, distinct procedures. Too much. But it's your, It's a pounce package. You're learning patterns, life on people. You're figuring out when and where you can get after them. And the flexibility that, I mean, how rapid. I mean everyone was. Absolutely. Dozens and dozens of those. Everyone. No two were even remotely the same. It was crazy how different they were. And we did one, one day we went out and there was this top lieutenant we were going after and we went out after and he was traveling. A couple of vehicles had bodyguards with him. We went in, we hit the hit stopped him and was kind of an escalation of force thing without getting too much into it. Hey, present as a big helicopter. That's scary, you know, but escalation of force thing, that went well. Right? And got the guy. And then we're. We're flying back and about 12 minute flight back and we're within sight of the base and we get word that the, the top shadow Governor, guy was on the move. And this guy had been a ghost. He had been nowhere to be found for months. Like, he knew his days were numbered. Like, we were just. We were just taking his network apart.

[B]

This is in Afghanistan. So at this level, I mean, we talking like high level AQSL type people.

[A]

Or these Omnis were quite high level, but they were high enough that they were. They're plugged into that world.

[B]

Okay, so outside of the Taliban farmer that unburies his AK to walk the poppy fields in the afternoon.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Now these are. These are serious dirt bags doing nasty stuff. And we were watching them live just.

[B]

For, well, their level of sophistication, being able to evade or, you know, not be found, but speak to that for sure.

[A]

Yep. And so the top guy, we get the word that he's. They got him, they're tracking him. And I'm like, this dude's been gone for months. Like, what's going on? So we literally in flight, bust a U turn and very robust planning, so. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. And people. I mean, that's about problem solving, man. Along the fly. And we. We bust the U turn and we're like, you know, we had five helicopters, we had personnel. Two of those were daps.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we had a gunned up. A gunned up bird and personnel on three other birds, make a U turn, flying this package back, screaming low off the deck, going back. We're like, hey, this is what we're doing is we're doing. Still don't know what we're going.

[B]

You're just coordinating this over your radio in a helicopter.

[A]

Yeah. No windows, wind bl. And we're like. And we don't. And we don't even know what. What we're going after, you know, this is like the boss. We're like, this is the top guy. The guy we just went after was traveling with like six bodyguards and two vehicles. This is the boss. He might be with six vehicles. And who knows?

[B]

And smarter move if he traveled by himself, to be honest.

[A]

Yeah. So he. We. We bust a U turn and we were flying, and then we pick him up and you're. You guessed correctly. Sure enough, he's by himself on a motorcycle.

[B]

Lowest signature possible.

[A]

Yeah. And we're like. I was like, okay, this is gonna. I was like, chuckling. I was like, this is going to be the easiest thing we've done all day, you know, and we're in weeks, you know, and until he clacks himself off. Yeah, yeah. And we. Then we start realizing that pick him up like this is by himself. He's more, you know, gunned up like Mad Max movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Rocket RPGs. And listen, bandoliers, I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And how about I gotta tell anybody how to party.

[A]

Yeah. So he got me. But when? Then I realized a few minutes out, we're like three minutes out, four minutes out, Max, he's going to find out what happened to his lieutenant. He's going back to where we just were. And at this point we're coming in and there's now a mob of like 300 people at that location. And I was like, we got to get him before he gets there.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So we step on the gas, we get him maybe a half mile down the road. And there's three to 400 people down the road who are not happy. And we got, we had to get out of there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so we got in, got out, got the guy we're after, flew out. It's getting near dusk at that point. Again, we're about to land and we get called, we're going back. There's another guy.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

I'm not getting. We call the hat trick. So we fly back.

[B]

First off, how much gas did you guys have on these birds?

[A]

Yeah, we bust, we bust back.

[B]

My first thought is like, is the warning light flashing?

[A]

I'm sure it was. And we fly back and it's dusk and we pick this guy up. He's on, he's on him. So he's by himself on a motorcycle too. We're like, okay, we just did this. We got this. We go. And as soon as he sees us, he bangs a hard right and goes into a compound. We go to the ground. This is when the birds refueled. We go to the ground and shift, throwing nods and do a da.

[B]

There's a solution for compound as well.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Unfortunately for him, the people in those helicopters are well educated and practiced on compound procedures.

[A]

We got this. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I actually be like, oh, we're good. Yeah, yeah, let's just go ahead.

[A]

That, that like, I mean that whole mission set for a few months was just unbelievable. But that, I mean like that day, there's a couple of days similar to that. Like to see that level of like pick up basketball problem solving on the fly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Back to back, three missions in a row, like with minimal planning in between yelling back and forth and loud ass helicopters. I mean like, it's just unbelievable. The respect I have for the dudes doing those missions is just unbelievable, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I Don't know. I mean, people listening to the story, I think will have some understanding of the complexity of what you're talking about, but let's call it 50%. It's, I, it's hard to describe the capability of those people.

[A]

Yeah, well, the pie doing the pilots, man. Oh, I know you've dealt with plenty of them and they're just, those guys are just world class, you know, you're not that organization, those guys, like, I always get around, like in our community, like, if you guys, you can get by, if you got a big personality and you're fun to be around, maybe you'll squeak through the cracks and, you know, no one's gonna hate you, but he's not the best, but we love him. There's no big personality your way through flying a 70 million dollar aircraft full of people. You need to be world class.

[B]

I got my helicopter license this year. I will say I have a general understanding of the aerodynamics of helicopters and a rudimentary ability to control one. I look back at some of my experiences with the 1/60 and I don't understand how they were able to do what they did. They were at the absolute front leading edge, probably teetering over it, of what was capable from an aerodynamic perspective. Active.

[A]

Yeah. Yep.

[B]

I mean, of course, as I start this, you know, Piston Robinson, 44, I tell myself that I'm on a 1 60th mission. It's not a big deal. Sometimes I do do strafing runs on cars. I make my instructor's like, what the are you doing? Like, never mind. I finally told him and he asked me what my wife asked me every day. And I was like, what the is wrong with you?

[A]

Yeah, like what?

[B]

Whatever, dude. Just, you know, it's fine.

[A]

This is normal behavior. This is what, this is how people.

[B]

They are so capable.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable.

[A]

The mission we went, the one that went poorly, the flying that we did, we, we. There was this hostage, it was a hostage rescue. We. It became the only show in town for 15 days. We, we were it. We were the primary force. Everything in eastern Afghanistan was.

[B]

Do they just push everything to you guys?

[A]

Everything? Yeah, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of conventional people, just everything. We went out on multiple nights with four to four different nights in that period went out. And last three nights we went out on night 13. Big, actually big engagements on all three of those missions. But then 14, we pretty much had her nailed down where we thought she.

[B]

Was the previous nights. Were you guys just a little bit behind Were they moving her?

[A]

Yeah, we were. I mean, we were literally like, you're just. She slept here, she ate here.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You guys were just on the tail.

[A]

Yep. And all those blew up into big, big fights with the guys who had been aiding and abetting. And on the night 14, we had her nailed down, and she was. They had moved her about as remote as they could. She was up over 9, 000ft. The last, very last compound at the very end of this valley.

[B]

What is this up in Konar?

[A]

Yep. And just brutal.

[B]

You better pack a lunch if you're going up there.

[A]

Yeah, it's no joke.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, and it was. The. The terrain was just absolutely brutal. And.

[B]

Michael, can you pull up a Google image of what would be a good search? Like Konar Valley?

[A]

It's spelled.

[B]

I've seen it spelled two ways. It's K U N a R or K O N a R. I've heard Kunar or Konar. Yeah, that's K U N a R. What would be a good Google term, though, like Kunar Valley or Konar Valley?

[A]

Helicopter inserts or not even insert.

[B]

I want to. I want to show the vertical relief village or something.

[A]

I mean, it's the foothills of the Himalayan.

[B]

It's insane.

[A]

Covered in 100 foot trees.

[B]

First off, I don't think any of their engineering is Osho approved. And that's what I want to show people. I want to show people this insane ability to build these villages on a damn near ver. Yeah. Go to the. Go to the right more, Michael. There's an awesome picture. I would keep going to the right. There was another one. First one on the left.

[A]

Yes. That's not. That is not unlike if you added.

[B]

If you make that bigger, if you can, Michael.

[A]

Yeah. That is not that unlikely. Where we went, I mean, it wasn't sheer cliff faces like that below it. But why is it gonna be blurry? Enhanced, you know, carved. Carved into the side of a mountain? And so we, you know, we realized, like, the risk associated with getting there was just off the charts. And we're like. We went up chain of command and said, hey, we need an operational pause for 24 hours also.

[B]

There's no way you're getting there with the element of surprise. They're going to hear you.

[A]

No. And took an operational pause, put dudes up in aircraft, looked for every possible way of getting there. And at the end of the day, it was like, this wasn't possible. Like, to patrol in. Wasn't gonna happen. Early warning network. Yeah. Offset wasn't possible coming in ridge lines. We looked, I mean we looked and at the end of the day we had to go right to the front door. Right to the front door, fast, straight.

[B]

To the X. Yeah. And what was the risk assessment on that?

[A]

First I was, it was, you know, I was never risk adverse guys. I was a guy, I went after some hairy stuff my day that was high. I mean I was like, hey look there's. I was, if they have an RPG or a heavy machine gun, we got about a, I think we have better than a 50 chance that, that our helicopter is going to get shot out of the sky with all of us on it.

[B]

It's going to get shot at 100. Yep.

[A]

I mean we, you know, you've got a Chinook helicopter size of school bus hovering 60ft above your front door, you know, and you know that that risk was huge. And then also just the risk to her, like they're gonna hear us, they're gonna hear us eight minutes out, they're gonna know we're coming to their front door. Five minutes out. These guys, every single one of their buddies that has helped us is no longer around. Like they know what's coming coming. Like there's about an 80 chance that they're just going to execute the hostage and run away. Which is what I would have done if I was them. Because we had actually done on that same deployment a month and a half earlier, we had done a hostage rescue campaign for two American soldiers, sailors. And we put so much heat on them that they did exactly that. You know, they, they said hey, this is not worth it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they executed these two young guys and then just we can't take the heat. So but, but the, you know, to say the point of that whole thing is like the pilots and add 100 foot trees to that whole image. You know, we did about a 60 foot fast rope to get down to that thing and those hot, those pilots held station like you would not believe. I mean unbelievable. So they're, they're hats off to them. And then I don't know where they.

[B]

Put their balls in the car. Is it, you think there's like a slide out compartment?

[A]

We know that. I mean I've gotten, I remember getting on one night, multiple nights, but one night in particular, like we were in a, you know, dicey situation, lots of still in a firefight and we went to our first HLZ and I got on the radio, I was like, hey man, we're still in the thick of it. We're gonna go to the alternate, it's about a mile away. I was like, we're fight our way to the alternate and not dragging y'all into this. And they were like, now we're coming. They're like, now we're coming. Yeah. And I was like, all right. And then, dude, they came in the gunfight and you know the deal like the gun, the gunfire stops coming our direction because you kill one of us, you're kind of a big deal.

[B]

I do. Like when the laser beam comes out of the helicopter.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you shoot down that, you shoot down that 75 million dollar aircraft, you're a legend. And so all fires, all fires go to that aircraft, even though it's pitch black and it's hard to see.

[B]

And again, I have a rudimentary understanding of helicopters, but part of it is a pre flight and understanding how all these systems are tied together. I assume. I don't know about a 47. I assume there are redundant systems.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

But every one of those redundant systems has an allergic reaction to lead coming at thousands of feet per second.

[A]

Yeah, we have multiple hours. I was one of the first guys on because I would true commander be right up front next to air mission commander got up through headset on and within seconds we had at least two, might have been three RPGs explode within what felt like five feet to me. Thank God those guys did not budge.

[B]

Thank God the RPGs are not very accurate.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[B]

Man.

[A]

Love those guys.

[B]

They're amazing.

[A]

Yeah. But you know, like I said, that was, that was a rough, rough chapter. But I've tried to like morph it into something, something positive. And then I built out other ones since that.

[B]

I mean, I asked you about your highlight. You know, would you say that that particular op was the, the lowest thing that you had to deal with or the hardest thing you had to deal with in your career?

[A]

No, I mean it was, it was, it was a bummer. I got, you know, I do that. But I. First of all, I should have said this before. First of all, to the, to the Norgrove family. And her name's out there, you know, condolences. We're so sorry we busted our butts. We did everything we possibly could and, and messed up. Sorry. And to every dude and we have mutual friends that were on those birds with me that night. All the respect in the world, you know, even to the guy who messed up. Even the guy who messed up. The amount of risk, you know, people that do not.

[B]

Well, first off, they might, they might have some Level of understanding of the risk. But what almost nobody will ever understand is what it feels like to be getting your on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Knowing you're going into that because whether you want to or not, you believe in what you do, and you believe in the person to the left and right and the purpose and what your flag on both shoulders is supposed to stand for.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's what people don't understand.

[A]

Yep. And I don't think it's hard. There's no possible way to explain that night was one of a few. Probably did a couple times in my career where I said, hey, we did go men force. Absolutely bare minimum number of guys that we could take because the risk was so high. And. And I told my troop chief. I was like, hey, guys aren't going to like this. But we. We all went. Our whole troop went. I was like, but if we're going to. We start cutting away guys from our troop. I was like, married with kids. They're getting cut first. You know, I was like, because if this goes catastrophic, I would rather have the bachelor go down than the father of three. You know what I mean?

[B]

The bachelor would probably want it to be that way as well.

[A]

Yeah, of course. They all. They all would. So that. That was the risk level. Again, all respect in the world for the guys who accepted that level of risk for that mission. And again, people. You can't explain that to people. Yeah. A low life, you know, Low points. Just losing guys. You know, we've lost a ton of buddies. Mark Carter, you know, Badger lost. I had just gotten out of green team, actually. Actually kind of a funny story, getting out of green team. But first real deployment after green team. Just got over there for a couple of days and we lost. Badger stepped on a crush wire improvised device. And nothing you can do. You know, you take X number of steps in certain countries, you're gonna step.

[B]

On the most heavily mined country on the face of planet Earth. I mean.

[A]

Yep. Tommy B. Is my troop chief. Tom, we know.

[B]

I knew Tommy.

[A]

I can't. So we were. Yeah.

[B]

I'll obviously avoid the details of everything that happened, but the fact that, you know, the. The way that it played out and the communication, it like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we were there for. So we. It was so. I mean, you're tight with Lou as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So last three guys out of the bird was myself, Tommy, and then Lou, who. Jump master. Yeah. And then our other friend was on the ground who powdered his feet front of yours. Another sky guru. All you sky gurus.

[B]

Well, I don't Know if you can call him a sky guru. If they powder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You might be able to call them the before that.

[A]

But I think lucky to be able to walk.

[B]

I think you have to change the. The nomica after they spend time in the hospital.

[A]

Yeah. How many jumps you out?

[B]

I don't know Exactly. Somewhere between 8, 500 to 9,000.

[A]

Yeah. I'm like less than 10 of that. I'm a little over 6. I'm a little over 600 people like we. 600. I'm like, no, I have buddies at 10,000. Like, that's.

[B]

I know people have 50, 60,000.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They work and live and are. They pay their bills in the sport and people like, you know, a couple thousand jumps is all I'm like, like, let me introduce you to so and so who can do things that I don't understand how are possible.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Losing Tommy was. That was rough. You know, five of us, you know, we lost Tommy not to get into that. It's privates for his family and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the aftermath of that, just. And just seeing guys come together, like only five of us stayed out there. Just key, key personnel stayed. Yeah. Multiple investigations got everybody came in after us. Oh, for sure. Nightmare man. So.

[B]

But when you look back on your career, you know, almost been out for 10 years, what do you make of those experiences? How do you view your career now?

[A]

I wouldn't trade it for the world. Glad I did it. You know, I share exactly those Hard, hard, hard road. But, you know, like I said, it's. Talk about the addictive drug. It's a. You know, and I like, I'd like to think that it doesn't ultimately define me. I was like, if people are talking about what a team guy was and my eulogy and they're not talking about me as a husband and a dad and, you know, mission failure, you know, so. But it's an amazing chapter, you know, and I think we gained so much. I think one of the biggest things gained from that experience is I think that from age like 25 maybe to like 45, like most people, like, you're gonna lose your grandparents in that window. You're probably gonna lose one of your parents. There's gonna be a. A couple of suicides, maybe a tragic car wreck, maybe a tragic cancer. But like in that window, like the normal. And I'm. I'm completely making these numbers up. The normal human being is going to have a dozen or less funerals to deal with and. And probably most half A dozen or.

[B]

Left to be my guess.

[A]

Yeah, 10. 10 or less.

[B]

It is an anomalous event.

[A]

And, and, and some of them were kind of supposed to happen. You know, we in that same window going to dozens and dozens and dozens of dudes that were just complete studs yesterday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it wasn't like this slow creep, some weird cancer got him. It's like total stud. Stepped on a crush wire. Gone. Yeah, total stud. Bad malfunction, gone. Like that. People say, hey, you have an appreciation for every day. Like I think in our community and any, anybody who's worked in that kind of world. Like no, no, you, you don't understand. Yeah, like beat way way and just gives you such a real, real appreciation for every single day, you know. So it's a hard way to get.

[B]

There, but it is, it's a unique path for sure. What do you wish that people. There's a lot of misconceptions out there about special operations in general. I actually before I ask you that question, I'm curious. There are. It's a weird ecosystem putting things out on the Internet.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There are a lot of other and by no stretch of the imagination all people who are on the Internet who come from a special operations background. And by no means are they all this way, but there are some that are very anti seal because of the notoriety that the seal community has received. And I'm curious your thoughts on whether you the notoriety is a good thing or a bad thing. Because. And before you answer, my opinion on this is it's not something that the community asked for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know, I don't even know exactly when it started. But the horse is not going back in the barn.

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm just curious your thoughts on the super high level of notoriety because it does create friction between other branches and other elements that are doing fucking amazing fantastic things. And when I talk about stuff, I almost always try to talk especially about how about just conventional forces in general. Let's be honest. The command is amazing. But what do you think the support ratio is there per operator?

[A]

Nine to one.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. Strip those nine guys away. Guess what? That command is far less capable.

[A]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[B]

Like it'll survive for a little bit, but then the mothballs are going to be a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's this huge, huge pizza that has to be there for the meal to be complete. The special operations component is like this 3 degree slice. But the seal community gets the lion's share of the notoriety. I'M just curious your thoughts.

[A]

I mean, I think, I think it's, there's pros and cons. I wish it wasn't where it is. But you're right. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. It's out there and you know, a few key things really blew it up probably Captain Phillips is probably one of the biggest one. Clearly bin Laden. Yeah, you know, some big things, but I mean, in a king for a day, I, I think we should have vanished in a puff of smoke the day bin Laden got taken down. I mean, literally vanished. Call, call the President. Hey, we're, we're moving and we're going to give the keys to this compound to some other group and we're out of here. I'll call you. We're going to, I need a blank check. We're going to move and we're going to vanish. And then, you know, this notoriety would still be there. But where are those guys? Where'd they go? Yeah, you know what I mean?

[B]

Problem is you can find the exact address where they are on the Internet.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I did some light Google searching a couple years ago just out of curiosity to see what type of information is out there. Holy shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It is far too accurate and detailed.

[A]

Yeah, it was ridiculous. I mean the, the bin Laden case was extreme, but the dudes coming back from that mission, God bless them all for being there and getting that done. Like coming back to that. Insane, man. You know, people throw this. I think our counterparts down the green guys are, they're much better about keeping, keeping off the radar.

[B]

Yeah, I would agree.

[A]

They do a lot of stuff differently too. They classify certain things even, you know, then they do a better job than we do.

[B]

I think I would agree. What do you wish people knew about the SEAL community? Like a misconception that you encounter that you wish you could change?

[A]

I mean, there's probably a bunch, but I think one thing would just be for the young individual now women are eligible for the training pipeline too. I don't think we've had any MIT kid in there yet. But it's just like some people put something on a pedestal like, oh, I can never do that. I can never be a, I could never be a CIA agent.

[B]

I mean, that's a really good way to make sure you're never going to be.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? No, you can, you can be a CIA agent if you want, if you want to do some homework, figure out how to go do it and go, go join the CIA and Become a field officer. Go do it, you know, or oh, I can never be a Navy seal. Yeah, you could. You know, it's not this bunch of, you know, world class athletes with high IQs. It's like. No, it's a bunch of middle sized dudes who are just willing to work really hard and never quit. Yeah. And if you have that in you, give it a go.

[B]

They're willing to use their head as a weapon and use it to break an awesome obstacle down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

While not simultaneously recognizing that they could have walked around it.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's a bummer too. Like I always get around that. I would say every barrel's got a bottom. Yeah. And unfortunately by default, any, any industry, you know, your bottom of the barrel, you're, you're idiot in the finance world who had. Does something terrible. Bernie Madoff or whatever. You know, people know all these names like your bottom of the barrel by default kind of become your ambassadors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's who everybody thinks a community is, you know. You know, the Patriots are all kinds of wonderful stuff. Sorry. Hernandez. Hernandez. Aaron Hernandez. I'm sorry. He's dead. Right. But like God didn't, he was a thug. He did some really dumb stuff and he becomes, he becomes an ambassador for that brand for a period of time. Which is unfortunate because it's like all these other dudes doing this great stuff, you know, doing great charities and playing great football and a lot of stuff. You know, we get, we get some bad notoriety from a very, very tiny sliver. The vast, vast majority of the crew. Just amazing, amazing Americans. Hard working professionals, you know.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And who are wired a little bit differently, you know, that is for damn sure. Yeah.

[B]

You know, when I was deeply immersed in the community, I didn't think we were odd.

[A]

No.

[B]

Now that I have interface for over 10 years with people who didn't come from that world, we were a little odd.

[A]

I got, I got through. Yeah. Oh for sure. Man.

[B]

We are wired slightly differently.

[A]

But I mean, but some of the funniest, some of the funniest stuff ever. You know what I mean?

[B]

If not the funniest stuff ever.

[A]

Yeah. Dark, dark humor, a lot of gallows humor. But like, oh my God, funny stuff, you know, I got, I'm talking about being wired differently and I, I would share this with young guys coming to the command. I was going through green team and our selection training process like nine months long. Classed up price similar to you class up with like about 78 guys probably somewhere plus minus 10, 95 of which were all just solid, good, good dudes. Everybody's got multiple combat deployments. Everybody's been the SEAL teams for 66 years, whatever. And we graduated with 31. Right. And so in that nine months, I don't know, probably slept in my bed at home maybe 40 nights in nine months, just gone. You know, in those mornings, I'm out the door, you know, crack of dawn or earlier. And my wife was pregnant with our first. So she was totally ready to kill me the whole time.

[B]

Perfect timing.

[A]

Yeah, perfect.

[B]

Well played.

[A]

Yeah. I think we had eight. Eight pregnant wives. While I was going through Green Team, they were just like, y'all are idiots. Yeah. And we're going through that, but then about half, three quarters of the way through, they tell you where you're going. And I found out where I was going. And they were on a certain cycle where you had to be stay in Virginia beach for a period. You couldn't go anywhere in case something they needed you. And I knew I was going to that. And that at that point, you know, as you remember that. That function. So sort of. It was kind of a good deal because she was like. It really wasn't getting utilized a whole lot, that capability. Yeah. But you.

[B]

And you knew you're gonna be home.

[A]

You'd be home for a period of time. And my wife and I did the. Did the math, and we had been together for, you know, whatever, six years at that point or something like that. We'd literally never been together for more than six weeks at a stretch. And our whole relationship, and I was like, me, I'm home for a few months. You know, that was a good deal. I'm gonna get through the training. Training's almost done. And that was like the light at the end of the tunnel. And she was. She was again, still, whatever, ready to kill me, you know, you might find.

[B]

Out you hate each other.

[A]

Yeah, well, we survived 10 years in retirement.

[B]

Trip you need to go on.

[A]

Yeah, we survived 10 years of retirement, so I think we're doing okay. But, yeah, I got through. And then I'm. I'm doing my admin check in to my new team, post screen team, and, you know, checking in dental and all that stuff. Administratively checking in. I'm driving home. I think it was Thursday night, and I get the call, and they're like, get back to work now. And I'm like, all right. And I literally. I was like, this is one. Green team's not over. This is one more reindeer game. It's one more stupid thing. I gotta go plan this Mission we're gonna fly to Fort Campbell tonight. Like whatever. And maybe u turn went back in and it was real deal. No kidding. No, yeah, it was 2007. It was an early bin Laden and they, we were gone. We were going right then and I texted my wife, I was like, I'll see you for breakfast and go back in.

[B]

But I. Bin Laden raids. Do you think there were thousands?

[A]

Well, I don't know. Full on take off on the U.S.

[B]

I mean, no, I'm talking like where the. They fired a flare. Like, you know, like run it up. I mean I remember he's listen, intel is showing he's getting tea in Kabul.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I remember thinking like. And I don't know, I'm like, I don't think that's legitimate.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Single source humid.

[B]

He is on his way to Kabul and we're all just, just sitting there like, okay, yeah. But yeah, that doesn't seem to make sense.

[A]

Yeah, that's like saying you're get ready. He's on his way to, you know, New York. Okay, great. That'll be, he'll be easy to find. But yeah, so we went back in and it was, it was, it was legit. It was an early sighting and they, you know, we were just too slow to get there and it didn't happen. But. And I was kind of in this admin check in week. I could have for sure if I had pushed my wife probably kill me when she hears this. But it's been 10 years. It's been longer. Yeah, but I could have not gone on that mission if I didn't want to. You know what I mean? I was just checking in. I was getting there.

[B]

But I was real, man.

[A]

I was like, I was like, no, I was like, I just, I've been in the team for over 12 years. I just suffered the green team and we might have a shot at this dude. Like I'm getting on that plane, you know, And I went and you know, we stomped around Tora Bora for six weeks and didn't get anything. But, but I would tell guys that I was like, that's the crazy level of like you might think I'm a nut job for like stone away on a jet that's going to combat. But like that's the mentality, like that you're surrounded by dudes. I didn't do anything exceptional. Every single dude would have said, oh, I got a chance to get on. Yeah, I'm gonna go. Yeah, I'll get myself there.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. You know, you mentioned the funerals. And I don't remember ever being, you know, briefed about mortality. And nobody certainly ever said, hey, this is the potential cost of this occupation. I think a lot of that is romanticized a little bit in media, but I would say every single guy knew that it was on the menu for sure. Like, if you. If you didn't realize it was on the menu, wow. You were galactically lost and didn't have an understanding of the job. The funerals were hard. The ones I still struggle with are the suicides.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And I'm curious your thoughts on why. And I can only speak about my experience with people in the SEAL teams, but it's a fucking issue.

[A]

Oh, for sure, man.

[B]

And I'm curious where you think that stems from.

[A]

As far as where it stems from. I mean, I. I don't have an educated answer on. I mean, this. There's a lot of people saying they're tying it back to. You're more susceptible. They're looking back at early. The more trauma you had earlier, you're kind of susceptible. Susceptible.

[B]

So you bring a full C bag in.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I had a great friend who went through. We lost him to suicide, but he went through Niko and everything. He was like, oh, so great. They got. They found this. They got me on this man. This man, this man. That's so great. I did this program and I was like, dude, you were. We went to Buzz together. You were batshit crazy when you were 22 years old. I've known you a long time. You've always been crazy. Like, you're the. You're the poster child for baselining, you know? And so I think some of that is baseline. You gotta be careful what you. Some people are hanging on by a thread already, and you expose them to some bad stuff, it's gonna get really worse. But other stuff, I mean, just the. The blast stuff, the CTE and the other. Yeah, I mean, I lost. Dave Collins was a great friend of mine. I had lunch with. I had lunch with Dave two weeks before he took his life. Really? You know, no red flags. I mean, I knew he didn't like his new. He just retired. I knew he didn't like his new job. You know, blah, blah, but, like, no red. No. And it's. And it happened like that.

[B]

I mean, like, yeah, you don't like your job, but, like, think of all the things throughout a career that they ask you to do that you don't like. That suck.

[A]

Yeah, it's, like, cool.

[B]

You.

[A]

Yeah. There was Something snapping enemy he was. Yeah, he had literally, I'll probably mess this up, but it's. Hey, I want you to into it. But he hit the ATM within hours of taking his own life. Like really wasn't planned out. Like, I mean, I'm gonna need some cash for later and now I'm pull over and take my life. Like it happened. Something in his brain snapped and it happened like that. You know, it's really scary stuff, man. So we need to. Whatever organizations are out there, there's a lot of them trying to figure out make that situation better. We gotta get behind all of those.

[B]

So I. At this point, I'm thinking it might be one of the unintended and unavoidable consequences for a small cohort of people that pursue that occupation. I don't know if it can be solved unless you could solve suicide writ large in society, because that's all the teams are, is a smaller segment of society.

[A]

But. Yeah, but the percentages are staggering compared to the rest.

[B]

The percentages are staggering for sure. But man, it's a weird job.

[A]

Yep, for sure.

[B]

You know, they ask you to do really weird shit sometimes and you do it and there's weight that comes with that. And I almost. I almost worry that they will. They will arrive at that place and realize that, hey, if we ask people to do things like this, this is a consequence we might have to bear. And then they'll just shut the study down because they don't want to be honest about it.

[A]

Yep. I remember I had just gotten through into the command. I just got the green team. Well, just after the storage and I was walking and you know, no one back then would go see the shrinks the docks ever. And I literally had a brown bag lunch and the head doc was there and I just knocked on the door. I was like, you got any lunch or any plans for lunch? You know, he's like, kind of. No, no. And I walked in and sat down and he pulled some food from his fridge and we sat there and chatted for 45 minutes and had our lunch.

[B]

Did you ask about his mom?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So tell me about your upgrade. Yeah. Do you want to couch?

[A]

You want to kill your dad? And. But no, I. We sat there and he was like. We chatted for 45 minutes, had lunch, and I was like, all right, cool, I'm take off. And he's like. He was on his heels. He's kind of like, hey, what did.

[B]

You nerded him out?

[A]

Anything you want to. Anything on your chest. Why'd you come in here, you know, and I told him, I said, hey, man, look, I don't. I know the resources this place has, and I don't know where I'm going to be in a few years, and if I'm having a hard time, the last thing I want to do is sit in here and listen to some stranger tell me what I need to be doing. So I figured I should get to know you. So I had lunch with that dude, like, almost every week, you know?

[B]

You know, that's a great strategy because it's often better to maintenance the vehicle before the check engine light comes on.

[A]

Yep, yep.

[B]

You can solve problems when the check engine light comes on, but usually those sensors are set to a threshold where shit's about to get real, real bad.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah, it's the suicide. Breaks my heart, man. It abs. It just shatters my heart. These people are so. Again, we can talk about the things that they ask the community to do, but how can you describe the tenacity and grit of these people who are like, again, there's no way to. To accurately just to articulate, hey, this is an extremely high risk operation when you're literally looking at it at maybe we're going to cut the people with families. And people would still volunteer and raise their hand and get their shit on and dive headlong into that breach. I don't.

[A]

Well, people. I've bumped in so many people. Dan can also. You know Dan? Yeah. He was up at our place in Boston just before the Boston Marathon. He was running it and he was at our house. We had a bunch of guys over and somebody, one of the civilians was like, guys? It's unbelievable. I mean, I've met multiple guys from your community. They've lost limbs and they're just like, so positive. And it's like, I'm like, you know, if you're working in an office building someplace and the elevator malfunctions and chops your arm off, I think you've got every right to be really angry for quite a while because you didn't sign on for that at all. But we did. We signed on for it. We knew it was in the equation, metaphorically.

[B]

I don't remember that paperwork.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't sign it. But if you're like, how could this have ever happened to me? You do know you signed on to go to combat and. Yeah, yeah, that's how it happened to you. But it's no, there's a lot of great folks out there doing all kinds of stuff to try to help Everybody on the mental health stuff. And I think it's, you know, do you. Have you done vhp? Do you know vhb? Virginia High performance. No, you got to go with Ollie. Yes.

[B]

I have not.

[A]

I have got to go. You got to go.

[B]

I am more. I need them to change it. So I need medium or mediocre performance and then I will.

[A]

Virginia Mediocre performance.

[B]

I honestly, I'll. I might actually brand that and start again. Be like, hey, here's the marketing. When this gets too tough, come see us.

[A]

Yeah. Montana, Montana, Montana Mediocre.

[B]

No, no, I'll set it up right next.

[A]

Right next door.

[B]

Yeah, I'll outsource it.

[A]

You should go.

[B]

You can run that. We're gonna do a mediocre academy. Mediocre.

[A]

Mediocrity. Yeah, you should go. Though it was. I went in August finally took me like a year to like say okay, because he'd been. I came bumping him doing the airport and I've known him forever and these. He's like, yeah, come, gotta come. And I had to. I mean it takes a month there. You're there all day every day for four weeks straight and finally carved out time to get it done. And it's just such an awesome program. Like two day workouts plus all the modalities head to toe kind of resunders nutrition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man.

[B]

It's a job that comes at a cost. It's. God, I'm so thankful that we still have people volunteering to do it.

[A]

Yeah, I think the next generation is going to be awesome, man. So, yeah, just keeping. Keeping it rolling, you know?

[B]

Yeah. What do you want to close out with? That'd be about two and a half hours.

[A]

You're rolling, huh? Wow. Yeah, we kind of hit on my work stuff. Patriot leadership. Okay.

[B]

Do you do the social media?

[A]

A little bit. I mean, it tears a piece of myself.

[B]

You hit me up on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I do a little bit, A little bit stuff there.

[B]

What is the best mechanism for something?

[A]

Jump into the website. Okay. Patriotld. Com. And it's, you know, also doing some work. We also partnered that morning. They're had them Seal kids. Great program. Sealkids.org Everything education related for our community. And they're blowing. Anybody who hears this is like, I'm not donating that. They're blown. They're going to everything in socom. They're changing their name to Children of Valor. Sweet. It's going to be all educational stuff. And I partnered. I'm actually doing my courses for them as fundraising events.

[B]

A little bit too awesome.

[A]

And. Yeah, that and my wife shop. Mercio. Mercio.shopmercio.com. she's killing it selling dresses. I've learned. I've learned more about.

[B]

Does she ship?

[A]

Well, this is about. I mean, this is me nagging her. She's done, like, some custom stuff for guys. Like, hey, this is my wife. Here's my budget. Here's a couple of pictures of what my wife wears. Oh.

[B]

So, okay.

[A]

Take care of Christmas for me again.

[B]

I don't know what this says about me. When you said custom stuff for guys, I was assuming you mean guys we used to work with who wanted, like, a nice sundress.

[A]

No, like, you don't have to shop for your wife. She'll do it for you. Yeah.

[B]

Michael immediately knew where my head went. He's like, yep, Yeah, I knew.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Will she ship? Because that would be.

[A]

Of course. She's all. She's probably 50% online. 50%. Okay, good brick and mortar. But if we're about to blow up.

[B]

Her website and she doesn't ship, that's.

[A]

A. Yeah, a problem. But it was. It was. It was. It's been pretty funny, man. Like, people, I. I'll run the shop. I don't care. You know, I'm. I'm. The odd.

[B]

Might be the most rewarding job of your life.

[A]

The odd man out. People walk in, not expecting to see me, you know, man in the counter, but hell yeah.

[B]

Well, dude, thank you for making the trip out, man. I appreciate it.

[A]

This is awesome, man. I appreciate you having me.

[B]

I'll be back on again sometime.

[A]

Right on. Cool with T Mobile, no. Trendspotter has to deal with trendspotty service because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more at T Mobile. Com. KeepAndSwitch up to four lines of a virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service port in 90 plus days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.