Episode 380 - Tom Hruby and James Pomerantz

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cleared Hot - Episode 380 with Tom Hruby and James Pomerantz

Release Date: March 31, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 380 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf welcomes two remarkable guests, Tom Hruby and James Pomerantz. Both veterans with extensive military backgrounds, they delve into their diverse careers, personal lives, and the collaborative creation of their novel, The Breacher's Playbook. This episode offers listeners an engaging exploration of resilience, transition, and the pursuit of new challenges beyond the military.

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Guest Backgrounds

Tom Hruby

Tom Hruby's journey is nothing short of extraordinary. A decorated Navy SEAL, Tom served with SEAL Team 1 as a breacher. Before his military career, he was a professional MMA fighter and later pursued higher education at Northwestern University, where he walked on to play Division 1 football as a linebacker between the ages of 32 and 34. His multifaceted experiences highlight a relentless pursuit of personal growth and adaptability.

Notable Quote:

“[Tom] has a memory of that [military training]. I do not.” ([00:29])

James Pomerantz

James Pomerantz hails from Oak Lawn, a suburb of Chicago, and has navigated a life filled with diverse roles, including working in the bar industry and authoring several published works. Together with Tom, he co-authored The Breacher's Playbook, a fictional novel infused with authentic military experiences, reflecting their time in the SEALs.

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Military Experiences and Training

BUDS and Hell Week

Both Tom and James share their rigorous experiences in BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL) training, emphasizing the mental and physical challenges they overcame. Andy highlights the misconception that military careers are the pinnacle of success, illustrating through his guests that life continues to offer new horizons even after such demanding roles.

Notable Quote:

“It's about how do I go find that? Who do I bring in?” ([27:07])

Balancing Time and Resilience

Andy discusses the importance of time management and mental resilience, drawing parallels between BUD/S training and entrepreneurial challenges. Tom and James recount specific instances from their training, such as the grueling tread test, demonstrating the critical role of mental fortitude in overcoming obstacles.

Notable Quote:

“Don’t worry about what day it is. Just make it to the next meal.” ([46:11])

---

Transition to Civilian Life

Personal Struggles and Growth

Transitioning from military to civilian life poses significant challenges, as shared by both guests. Andy reflects on his own difficulties during his divorce while serving, and James discusses reconciling his military past with his present life, including his role as a father and community member.

Parenting and Family Dynamics

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around parenting, where both Andy and James share insights into raising children with military backgrounds. They discuss the unique pressures of balancing family life with past military rigor, emphasizing open communication and adaptability.

Notable Quote:

“To my children, I’m the most resoundingly boring human being.” ([14:05])

---

Writing The Breacher's Playbook

Collaborative Process

Tom and James detail their collaborative efforts in writing The Breacher's Playbook. They outline their method of alternating between structured outlines and spontaneous storytelling, allowing the characters to evolve organically. This approach ensures the novel remains both authentic and engaging.

Research and Authenticity

The guests emphasize the importance of integrating real-life experiences into their fiction, drawing inspiration from their military backgrounds to create relatable and credible narratives. Tom mentions the meticulous research undertaken to portray accurate military operations and personal struggles.

Notable Quote:

“Everything that we went through in our lives, we had to go through to learn the lessons and the skills to get us through what we're doing right now.” ([15:04])

---

Reflections and Advice

Overcoming Self-Imposed Barriers

Andy encourages listeners to push beyond their comfort zones, highlighting that personal limitations are often self-imposed. Through his guests' stories, he illustrates that continuous pursuit of new challenges leads to personal and professional growth.

Leveraging Modern Tools

James and Tom discuss the impact of technology and resources like YouTube and AI in modern education and personal development. They explore how these tools can empower the next generation to learn and adapt more efficiently than previous generations.

Notable Quote:

“You just got to take the step and just go, go, go. You'll figure it out. The path will be laid out in front of you as you go.” ([140:31])

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Conclusion and Closing Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Tom and James share their enthusiasm for ongoing and future projects, including additional books and community initiatives aimed at supporting veterans and their families. They stress the importance of resilience, adaptability, and the continuous pursuit of personal growth.

Notable Quote:

“Life's not static, so you have to move.” ([50:35])

Andy expresses his gratitude towards Tom and James for their candid discussions and inspiring stories, inviting them to return for future episodes to delve deeper into their experiences and projects.

---

Final Takeaways

• Resilience is Key: Overcoming significant challenges builds mental and physical fortitude.
• Adaptability Matters: Transitioning from structured environments like the military to civilian life requires flexibility and continuous learning.
• Collaboration Enhances Creativity: Working with others can lead to meaningful and authentic creative projects.
• Balancing Life: Effective time management and open communication are essential in balancing personal life with past professional demands.
• Embrace New Tools: Leveraging modern technology can enhance learning and personal development.

Episode Highlights:

• Introduction of guests Tom Hruby and James Pomerantz ([00:29])
• Discussion on military training and personal challenges ([27:07], [46:11])
• Insights into parenting and family dynamics ([14:05])
• Collaborative writing process of The Breacher's Playbook ([15:04], [46:11])
• Reflections on overcoming barriers and leveraging technology ([140:31])

Recommended for: Military enthusiasts, veterans transitioning to civilian life, aspiring authors, and anyone interested in stories of resilience and personal growth.

Transcript

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[Host]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back, man. We got a banger of an episode for you today. All right. There are some cool things about my old job. A lot of people think that it is the, I don't know, the apex of what your life could potentially be. And I'm just here to tell you that if today's guest doesn't convince you that that's not the case, I don't know what to tell you. So there's two people today, two guests, James and Tom. James I met today, Tom, I served with in the military. Well I can't say necessarily served directly with him. Apparently I was a BUDS instructor at around the same time he went through. He has a memory of that. I do not. James, before we get into this is man, what a hell of a life the man has lived, worked in the bar space for quite some time. They're also an author, a very well published author. And with Tom they have created a novel which is what we're going to get to. But the book is called the Breachers Playbook. This is a fictional novel. But what I like about this kind of genre is that it's very similar to Jack Carr in many ways, meaning a lot of truth woven in. And when you know what you're looking for, you can kind of tell about the authenticity and it speaks to you in that way. And then if you just still want to be able to detach your mind, you can go down the fictional route as well. So I actually think it was James that reached out to me first and I need to read right off of what he wrote, Tom's background, because it's fucking ridiculous. Tom obviously went to Bud's and successfully graduated, served at Seal Team 1 as a breacher. Before that he was a professional MMA fighter. 7 and oh no big deal, joined the Navy after 9, 11, 10 year career as a SEAL. Then he enrolled in Northwestern University and walked on and played D1 football as a linebacker when he was 32 to 34 years old. What does somebody do after they've already done all of those things? I don't know. How about continuing to stay in school and educate themself and then also become a published author? Unbelievable. It just goes to show you that you are really limited by the barriers that you put in front of yourself. And I'm gonna shut up. I'm gonna let them talk for themselves. We're gonna get into episode 380 with James and Tom. Give me a quick sec. Let's pay the bills. Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. I know everybody who listens to the show is familiar with the brand. Last week's episode was with the founder, Josh Smith. It was really cool. We combined like a little bit of a podcast with a little bit of a vlog. Go to montanaknifecompany.com right now. They're having a sale on their apparel. I'm actually wearing one of their shirts right now. That was accidental. I generally dress in the darkness and whatever T shirt is on top is going to be what I get. They just dropped their tactical line. We talked about that in last week's episodes. There are four knives associated with it. It's actually what I carry in my fanny pack as my edc. Not because I'm looking to get into a knife fight, but mostly because I like to open envelopes in boxes efficiently. These knives are ridiculously sharp. Please be careful. They have chef's knives. They have hunting knives. They have tactical knives. They have knives for people like Greg Putnam who work out on the Little Belt Cattle Co. Ranch. They have knives for people who are fishing. They have knives for anybody who would need a knife. The brand was founded here in Montana. Montana Knife Company, Right. It's definitely global. I will say this. They're incredibly hard to get. If you see something that you like of theirs, join their mailing list. They are releasing knives now, I believe every Thursday and Saturday. I think they release a couple thousand at a time. And it is not unheard of that they'll go within a matter of seconds, probably 60 to 120 seconds. I have personally had multiple knives stolen from me by other people out of my shopping cart because I was slower in the process. So join the mailing list. Support an American manufacturing brand. Born and bred here in Montana. They're bringing jobs back. Not that they're bringing jobs back into the US Because I think the jobs they're hiring for are in the US but they're definitely bringing jobs here to Montana. They're building a huge facility on the western edge of Missoula. They're some of the coolest people. I love their knives, and I'm the first to tell you, they're the hardest to get. Head over to montanaknifecompany.com and show your support to a fantastic brand. My ask for you is this somewhere in that checkout portal. They're going to ask you where you heard about them. Click my name or the show's name, and that's the best way that you can help me. Montanaknifecompany.com okay, got the red smoke.

[James]

Sun run north and south.

[Tom]

West of the smoke, west of the smoke.

[Host]

Okay, Copy.

[Tom]

West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now, baby.

[Host]

Give it to me. I need it. Get clear hot campaign.

[James]

Clear hot.

[Host]

How are we looking, Michael?

[James]

We're good.

[Host]

You guys ready? I think this is all the prep that I do. I just say hit the record button off.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

Yeah. Have you guys done podcasts before?

[James]

Okay. Not really.

[Host]

Okay, not really me either.

[Tom]

Book just came out. So.

[Host]

Do you want to start with the book or go backwards? Because the book is obviously an amalgamation of your experiences a little bit. I don't know actually what that word means or if I used it correctly, but I think I did maybe a collection. So I'm fascinated about the book, fascinated about how you guys met, But I think if we're going to talk about the book, we got to start with the origin story a little bit. You guys good with that?

[Tom]

Sure.

[Host]

All right, where do we begin? First, there was light.

[James]

Yes, there was the word. I think the word came first. Actually, I'm not sure which one came first.

[Host]

I mean, how far back in time should we go?

[James]

Where'd you grow up?

[Host]

Let's start there.

[James]

I grew up in Chicagoland. Town called Oak Lawn. Is that Southside Chicago?

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

South side, Chicago suburb.

[Host]

Is Chicagoland a term that Chicagoans use? Yeah.

[James]

Yeah, I think so. You know, I really use it because we're actually in Indiana, so we get confused for being a part of Chicago, and we call ourselves Chicagoland because of how close we are, but we're not actually in Illinois.

[Host]

Which direction did you say? South.

[James]

We're southeast.

[Host]

Okay. We have a buddy who lives, Dan Hart, who has totally non sequitur, the most beautiful jiu jitsu school I've ever seen in my entire life.

[James]

What's his name?

[Host]

Dan Hart. He's up in Woodstock, Illinois.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

I will show you his social media. He Actually has the same lights that these people can't see. But imagine hundreds, hundreds of square foot of this light over pristine matte and epoxied floor with 30 person. You're like, what the. Yeah, yeah, he does it right. So we fly into Chicago all the time, but we head up to the northwest, up to Woodstock.

[James]

Okay. Okay, so he's north in Wilmette. Well, near Wilmette.

[Tom]

Well, now I'm in Libertyville and Scottsdale. I split time between both places.

[Host]

Let me guess, probably has to do with the time of year.

[Tom]

Well, it has to do with a girl.

[Host]

And the only thing more important than the time.

[Tom]

Yes.

[James]

And he's doing it right. He's got this great condo up north. Chicago, which in the. In the summertime, Chicagoland's awesome. Chicago's great. Okay, not so much. But Arizona in the winter time is.

[Host]

Way better than not in the summertime. How people actually survive there is beyond me.

[Tom]

The last two summers there have been brutal.

[Host]

Where in Azure?

[Tom]

Well, I was in Cave Creek for four years.

[Host]

Okay.

[Tom]

Which is north of Scottsdale.

[Host]

Okay.

[Tom]

And. And then I moved in with my girlfriend who lives in Scottsdale. And then I. I have four kids in the Chicago area, and that's where I grew up and raised my family. So.

[Host]

How many kids you have?

[James]

Four.

[Host]

I have four sons. We're doing it.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

So it's carried this, carry the one on that. Three.

[James]

Three sons?

[Host]

No, two sons and a girl.

[James]

How old's the girl?

[Host]

Sixteen. She.

[James]

Where's she at? In the. In the line.

[Host]

Youngest.

[James]

Youngest. Okay.

[Host]

Now between us though, 11 kids. We are doing our part. 443.

[James]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

I'm not an expert in math.

[James]

I had a whole bunch of additional kids, but between the three of us.

[Host]

No, I would actually probably blow my brains out yourself. We're. We're doing good. We are. For anybody wondering if we're doing our part, we have done our part. Mike, how many kids are you gonna have?

[James]

Maybe. Remains to be seen.

[Host]

Actually, you know What? We have 12 kids. Four. Four. I have three and an adopted. So we have 12 kids.

[James]

Where's he at? In the. Are you the oldest?

[Host]

He would technically be the oldest. He's 23.

[James]

Good. Well, you're. You're the wrong 25, but you know.

[Host]

I have a 21 year old boy, a 19 year old boy, and a 16 year old girl.

[James]

What is that age group like for the boys? Because I'm at 14. I'm at 14, 13, 11 and 9 right now.

[Host]

Have they all expressed yet their difference in personalities for sure. Okay, so I, what I have found is. And how old are your kids, by the way?

[Tom]

They're older.

[Host]

Okay. So we can talk about the tail end of this because I'm curious how it ties in because we are actually, we're in all probably three spectrums of parenting. You're, you're in what I'd call the trenches.

[Tom]

My youngest is 30.

[Host]

Okay, yeah, so you're in the trenches. I'm in the, the charge after you climb the ladder out of the trenches. And he's already won World War II.

[James]

So nice job, Jim.

[Tom]

Hey.

[Host]

Yeah, man. So they're, they're different, right? Same genetic makeup, DNA wise combination. But they, my kids couldn't be more wildly different. My middle son is going to college in Bozeman. Knew he wanted to be an engineer since he was mid teens and is teaching himself like CAD programs. It's insane to watch him go down that path. Started two businesses before the age of 18.

[James]

Nice.

[Host]

My oldest son has no interest in school whatsoever. Has drifted around a bit. I lost touch with him for about 18 months during our divorce. It was wild. Probably one of the most difficult times of my life. Actually have recovered that relationship probably even better. But he is like Motorhead loves. He got a motorcycle a couple years ago, which you want to talk about aging and dog years. I'm like, I feel comfortable completely fine on a motorcycle. I do not like the concept of my 21 year old son on a motorcycle who promises me he's going to ride safe and then he'll send me GoPro footage. Look at me, dad. I'm just cruising around on this road and I'll zoom in on the speedometer. I'm like, dude, come on, son. So he's like, motorhead wants to move to Florida at some point because it has better riding season. My daughter, 16, finished up high school early and is digging into and like diving into welding and has drifted. And at 16, I mean, I knew what I wanted to do at an early age. I'd be curious if you knew what you wanted to do. She's kind of navigated all over the place, which is totally fine with me. I completely support them pursuing things that they, they find to be interesting. But they couldn't be different, man. And my, my oldest son, the difficult phase or problematic phase or worrisome phase for me mostly when he was growing up was probably like 16 to 18. That was kind of the hardest. My middle son, Tyler, wouldn't you agree? He's like 40 years old. Michael, trapped in a 19 year old's body.

[James]

I would agree with that.

[Host]

Yeah. He'd be more likely to be found on a Friday night reading a stoicism book with, you know, tortoise shell glasses on.

[James]

Interesting.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah. And trying to figure out which crypto to short the next day.

[James]

Amazing, man.

[Host]

He wakes up every morning in college and day trades. So I'm like, what are you doing?

[James]

He sees a goal for himself. He sees like, this is how I can become something else. And he's working towards it.

[Host]

He's going to be fine.

[James]

And he's totally fine with that.

[Host]

And when he started his businesses, the only way he got business is he went and knocked on doors. He doesn't care if he gets told no, if somebody tells him no, or get the fuck off my property. He literally say, well, do you happen to know anybody of your neighbors that might need my service? So he doesn't care. So I look at him, I'm like, you're gonna be so fine.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

The world actually probably isn't ready for you because he just keeps going. You're good. Let me know when I can start borrowing money from you.

[James]

You're gonna have to hire him.

[Host]

I don't know if I can afford him. Do you.

[James]

Do you feel like you. You can see how each of your kids are a variation of you. I mean, they make up a combined total. They make up you. But any in each category, something even.

[Host]

Better, something even I see my deficiencies at them.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

Like my daughter. My daughter, Michael can probably attest to this, has got a real sharp mouth. She's got some sass. Real smart ass, if you will. I'm like, well, I know where you got that from. My oldest son's stubbornness and ability to just kind of detach and do his own thing. Like, kind of know where you got that from, because that's how I deal with things as well. And honestly, my middle son, he is just kind of better than me in every way. And I kind of sit there and wonder, where the fuck did that come from?

[James]

I mean, you look at your life, I mean, you have done some ridiculously amazing things. I don't describe it that way. I know you don't see it that way, but that's kind of one of the issues with guys like us. We don't really see it that way.

[Host]

But yet we know what's interesting about.

[James]

That, though, we keep looking for new challenges and we. We go after them.

[Host]

To my children, I'm the most resoundingly boring human being.

[James]

Oh, my God. Is it not the truth?

[Host]

Man, they just. They just. They're like, dad, can you go away? I want to spend time with my friends. Can you not talk? I'm going to have some friends come over. Sure.

[James]

How hard is it for that?

[Host]

That.

[James]

That's sort of like, I love it. I don't want. Oh, you're fine with that?

[Host]

At this point, I'm just laughing, man. What? What? I have almost no control.

[James]

Right.

[Host]

Well, at the phase you're in use, I mean, all of my kids can drive. All of my kids are out of school.

[James]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Host]

I arrived at the place where, you know, sex, drugs, alcohol, you're just hope that they don't all occur at the same time. You know, have the conversations up front. The really cool thing with all three of my kids is I can have open conversations about all of those things. They're very open with me, almost to the point where I want to say, hey, do you want to not share that with me? Because as your dad, I really am not interested in knowing any of that. But I'd rather have that than them be guarded or go to somebody else with that. But at this point, I mean, my oldest, he just sends me pictures of crotch rockets, like, and with the text, so just hear me out. I'm like, no, no, you don't need a faster bike. And he just. I can't stop him.

[James]

Right.

[Host]

So I just laugh and I try to give him advice, and if he takes it cool. And if he doesn't take it cool. But he's still coming to me for it.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Which is all that I can hope for, you know?

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

They don't. They don't. I'm just their dad.

[James]

It sounds like you're doing a pretty awesome job, though.

[Host]

I will say I am trying.

[James]

Maybe it took. What would you do? 20 years and 17. 17 years.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

Get medically retired, all the knuckleheads, to learn something else. Lessons. You ever think, like, everything that we went through in our lives, we had to go through to learn the lessons and the skills to get us through what we're doing right now. I mean, and there's no way I could have planned any of this.

[Host]

I do think about that, but I also wonder.

[James]

Never have made my life to become where it is today. Writing a book with this guy and talking about my life.

[Host]

Could you have.

[James]

Here I am with four kids. I mean, could I have imagined that I'm. Now my life revolves around spending time with my kids, giving them the opportunities, watching them grow, trying to do my best to give them the Advice and the life that they need. And that's all I think about and do. And a little bit of few things of my own on the side.

[Host]

But think about it. I mean, so the community we came from is, I don't know, 2,000 people at any time, maybe 2,500. Bunch of people getting in, bunch of people getting out. There has to be a way to achieve without the physical and mental suffering that we were exposed to. Many other people on earth seem to be doing just fine without it.

[James]

How did we. How did we decide that that was a great idea? Right.

[Host]

Not only how did we decide that was a great idea, how did we continue smashing our head against the wall, thinking in the back of our mind, this is the way for so long?

[James]

I don't know.

[Host]

It does make it possible to achieve great things, but also there's people all over the world achieving great things without going down that path.

[James]

That's right. Sitting. Sitting in academia somewhere writing. Writing theories about stuff, too. But then somebody's got to go live those theories, too. You know, these concepts of how life ought to be, these. These philosophical concepts of the way to live. You know, the Stoics. It's a philosophy of life. It's.

[Host]

Who's your favorite stoic?

[James]

Marcus Aurelius.

[Host]

I just found mine recently. His name is Mediocrites.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

And it's. His phrase line is, sometimes it's just good enough. I made that up. There's no mediocrity, but if he was, he'd be my spirit animal.

[James]

But that's, you know, it. Sometimes it is. That's all you can do is what you can do. No more.

[Host]

I actually. Hold on. I have to get the phrase right. Somebody forwarded this on social media and I actually posted it yesterday. I'm like, this is my spirit animal. What is the saying? It says, meh, good enough mediocrities.

[James]

But, you know, you're not going to live like that. And your kids aren't probably either.

[Host]

My kid is hilarious. You know, going back to. Regardless of what I've done in my life, how they resound and we just don't care.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

They maybe two or three times have asked me a single question about our old career. Every. Yeah, well, they were. So my last appointment was in 2010. My daughter was still in a crib at the time, and I got out in 13, so she was older. But as far as me going back and forth overseas, both my sons were born in Virginia Beach. My daughter was born in San Diego. My sons were waiting for me at the stairs in 2010 when I left. But my oldest was seven, maybe eight. So you know their life. I got out in 13 older and have done a lot since then. I just. I don't know. I don't know what level of awareness or interest, but maybe a couple times they've asked me. They don't ask me much about the skydiving or the BASE jumping stuff, Even though, like, I've taken them to Switzerland with me and was jumping over the top of them in a wingsuit and it never comes up. They're just like, whatevs. You know, who doesn't have that happen? Their papa doesn't fly over them in a nylon wingsuit. I'm like, fuck, guys, I'm doing my best to be interesting here. They all three worked for me at the coffee shop at one point in time, that was probably the coolest thing. They all shared a shift once. And I actually thought if the world was going to end, it would be that day. The nuclear mushroom cloud. Because my daughter and oldest get along great. My oldest and middle son get along great. My middle son and my daughter. I have to worry about whether or not there's knives in the house, if they're spending time with each other. And then all three of them were there. I thought that was gonna be the end. But, yeah, I just. I'm just. Dad.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

And the thing is, too, I also never talk about any of that other stuff because I'd rather talk about their life than what I did almost two decades ago. And he gives a shit. How the fuck do we even get on this topic?

[James]

Yeah, well, they're the future.

[Host]

They are, like, in a real way.

[James]

They are the tip of the spear, you know, they're the most evolved human creature that there is at this point. You know, our kids.

[Host]

And I'm happy to see it because they are all three of them, in their own ways, more capable than I could ever be. And I think some of that is. I mean, what year were you born?

[James]

82.

[Host]

Okay, so I got five years on you. I remember the first time I sat in front of a computer. It was my senior year in high school. I took a computer class. And we're talking full dial up. You've got mail.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

What is this, Internet?

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

I cannot even fathom all three of my kids. If they want to learn something or if they have a question, they go to YouTube. How do you fill in the blank? And there is, on every subject that I've seen so far, a volume of information. So I agree. They're more evolved, but so are the tools that they have to leverage them forward. I can't even. Can you imagine in the teams, how do you. Not that there would be a reference or resource for that, but imagine if there was and you had in your pocket.

[James]

Why isn't there?

[Host]

Probably because some of the stuff's considered sensitive. Sensitive security issues. But I mean, how do you pack a parachute, right? How do I pack my ruck for a free fall jump? Imagine if there was that Rolodex. It would be a burden relieved from the mentorship and leadership because you could answer the questions on your own. And what I have found with my kids is because they have that, they're even more inquisitive because if they can get the answer to this, well, what about this? And what about this? That's how my son taught himself how to day trade was YouTube.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's how he found his business model for. He has a window cleaning business and a Christmas light business. All cash.

[James]

Cool.

[Host]

He's a psychopath. So all cash business. He started storing money in hollowed out books.

[James]

Oh my gosh.

[Host]

But he would pull it out on Fridays and lay it out on his bed and just count it like you are a psychopath. And they ended up having so many hollowed out books that he wanted to open a bank account and is on YouTube researching how much cash can I put into a bank account before the IRS finds out.

[James]

That's a riot. All because what a kid, man.

[Host]

But we would have done the same thing, I think, if we would have had those tools. Yeah, we didn't have those tools.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we did. I don't think we. I didn't have those tools. No. I recall too, the first time somebody showed me Google, I think I was about 19 years old.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

And my cousin came over and goes check this really cool thing out. It's called Google.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

I said, what the fuck is Google? And he showed it to me and I thought, this is ridiculous. And I never looked at it again for about two years before I started Googling. Then.

[Host]

Yeah. But then how many days do you go by now without Googling?

[James]

Every day, all day.

[Host]

Your kids are growing up in the AI world.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of risks, but there's so many benefits too. And it's not going anywhere.

[Host]

Well, it's going. It's going somewhere and that's forward.

[James]

It's not going away.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

You're gonna have to figure out how to mitigate and utilize AI to Your benefit and your safety and kids got to learn how to do that. Yeah, but it's like having a personal assistant. If you learn how to use it, you can have AI do virtually everything that you need for you.

[Host]

Imagine again, you and I go back into time. I don't know about you. My interest in school was below average.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

If I had had a tool in my pocket that I could have had listened to my classes and then create and submit the work for me, I would have been a 4.6 student.

[James]

Wouldn't have been the best.

[Host]

I mean. Yes.

[James]

How do the schools, how do they know that kids aren't doing that? Do they have. I believe they're scanning homework and, and minimizing kids abilities to do that.

[Host]

What's that word plagiarism around it?

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

Plagiarism is written. So I believe there are tools that.

[James]

Can recognize AI writes it. Do they consider that plagiarism still?

[Host]

So I think there are tools that you can put.

[James]

See, my kids aren't quite old enough yet where I'm like dealing with that. My freshman is. You know, there's a lot of talk about AI and, and whatever that is plagiarism, but I haven't gone through like where they're writing papers and they've got these.

[Host]

So I think there's tools. I believe there are tools. And the plagiarism tools I think have existed for a while. It just references the AI tools, I believe, because the. They're not perfect. Like I'll use them sometimes for podcast descriptions and it just. If you don't use a very specific input, it's a little bit verbose, likes, adjectives, and you can tell a little bit, but then you could also tell it to write differently in a different tone of voice in first person. So I believe that there is software that exists that can help recognize. But again, it's going to be this chess match of the software that allows it to create than the software that. I mean.

[James]

Yeah, it can create undetected.

[Host]

Have you seen the math apps on the phones the kids have?

[James]

No.

[Host]

So you can take an equation, you just hold your camera up to it, and it not only will answer it for you, but it spits out the steps along the way.

[James]

So you can do your work, you.

[Host]

Can, you can do your work. But here's the thing. If it's also showing you how to do it along the way and you're learning from that, is that wrong or is that adopting the latest technology? I mean, I don't. I went, you know, in high school you, you know Math and Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 of which I have used precisely and exactly. Probably zero since maybe a little bit of math at like free fall jump master trying to figure out wind drift. But is it wrong for them to use that tool? If you know what I mean? Like, I don't have the answers to any of this. And some people would just say, oh well, that's cheating. Yeah. And I'm landing on the place of it's not cheating. You're using the tools that you have available. And if it can teach you at the same time, I think what we're hearing is people who didn't have access to those tools saying fuck you. Yeah, you have something that I didn't.

[James]

That's right. I think it is something like that.

[Host]

Which does suck because they have.

[James]

If you, you want expect everybody to have the full mathematical proficiency in their head at all times when I don't need it because it's right here.

[Host]

I want an engineer to understand the math that makes the bridge that I drive over.

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

Safe. I don't need the. Let's use the coffee shop again. The barista that works for me. I don't need them to have gone through calculus. I need them to understand that a two shot latte is two two ounce shots. You don't need your camera or trigonometry for that. So if you're a spec, if you're a brain surgeon, I really need you to understand if you're not a brain surgeon, do you need to go to like biochem level 4 classes in college? I don't know. Yeah, I didn't. I mean, I'm resoundingly the dumbest person I know and I've been okay.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

But I also leverage this a lot too.

[James]

Well, you leverage a lot of things, you know. Right. A lot of people are involved in our lives that, that play a huge role too. That's the missing in people that know these skills and have skill sets and they have knowledge that we don't have. And that's, that's what I guess makes us humans that are adaptable. You know, we have the adaptability, but really it's about how do I. When I know I don't know something or I need something or I need help with something, how do I go find that? Who do I bring in? Right? That's the question. Will I do that or will I go get the training or will I learn how to do things that I don't already know that I need or do I just Say, I need to bring somebody in on this.

[Host]

That's the missing piece, though. People look at the individual success of individuals and again, I can tie it back into the SEAL community. And this is something I try to talk about every single time, because special operations, in my opinion, they. It serves an amazing role and it's a specific role, but that job is impossible without every other metric inside of the military. And they get everyone, everyone. And they think that the people inside of the community are somehow very unique or they're superhuman or they're anomalous in society, in my opinion. And I try to tell people this. If I were to line up your average BUDS class from shortest to tallest, you're going to have some D1 people in there that look like Adonis. And then you'd be like, who's that nerd?

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

And the answer is that nerd's the guy who's likely going to make it through training. But then you get into the community, you're not doing shit. Without the boat support, the helo, support the intel. We would sit there and throw rocks at ammo cans. That's literally all we would do if we didn't have every enabling aspect, the N1 through N9 departments, of which the operators fall into, the N3 in the Navy world or the J3 in the joint world. Without that, you wouldn't be able to do anything. Any person. You and I, right, we are the sum total of the people that have helped us get to this point in life. And people forget that. They look at the person like, you've done amazing things. Like, I've never actually done anything without the support of others. And it gets lost.

[James]

It does. And I lose that sometimes. I lose sight of that. And I have many times in my life just to look back at my entire life and see how many people it took and how much work they put in and their entire life. Life and what they built up to just to help support where I am at that time in my life, you know, and that goes on and on all the way up until today. It's like there's never been a moment where I. Everything that I've done, everything that I have, every. Everything that's in our lives right now is not on the backs of hundreds of people and all of their sacrifices and everything that they've done. It's. I mean, to remember that you realize you're never alone, too. That's the. That's the crazy thing. There's nothing individual about this whole journey that we're on. Life is an entire series of making relationships and working.

[Host]

It's humbling. Another, when you look at it in the totality, humbling.

[James]

But it's also feels great, you know, it's like it takes you to a safe spot. I don't have to. I don't have to do it all. I don't have to be the guy that does it all anymore. I can let that go, which is.

[Host]

Hard because coming from the world we came from.

[James]

Right. So that was a world where you feel like you've got to save the world. It's my job to save this place. And I never saw that on a.

[Host]

Slide deck, though, did you?

[James]

I think they.

[Host]

I think I felt that way, but I never saw it on somewhere.

[James]

They were subtly just pumping that into our minds. That way they can make us work harder, train harder, be better, go faster. There was something subtly, hey, you guys need to be. You're going to be the one that saves the world.

[Host]

I will say this. For all the downsides of. Of living your life like that, there's tremendous upside. The what?

[James]

Like my torn rotator cuff and bulging.

[Host]

No, no. None of that is the upside. That's just the cost.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Host]

The things that you're able to do and most of the things that I have done in my life, it doesn't come down to below the neck. It's above the neck. It's an unwillingness to give up. And that program, at least the initial filter, does a good job of selecting for people that look. In my opinion, this is my words, not doctrine. I think BUDS looks for people that see roadblocks as motivation, as opposed to Roblox, as a stumbling point that they can't get past. Because how many times were you really just all the way back to buds, how many times were you actually ever really successful? Not many.

[James]

No, Almost none.

[Host]

And when you were. The suffering didn't stop.

[James]

It was. It was moderately successful.

[Host]

That's what I'm saying. And so if you can wrap your head around that mentality, I mean, what makes a good entrepreneur? I wouldn't be able to answer that because I'm not one. But in the people that I've seen, but the people I've seen, most entrepreneurs are not successful in their first venture. So they keep going and going and going and going, which is the same mentality expressed in a different medium. So I think it doesn't surprise me that a lot of the guys get out of that are entrepreneurial. And it also doesn't surprise me that when they end up on the wrong Side of the law. They go big. Yeah, you know, there's no little. I'm gonna deal cocaine on the street corner. If you find a team guy who gets into that world, he's gonna be the kingpin, muling cocaine and U haul.

[James]

Trucks or assassinating people or something like that.

[Host]

Yeah, he'll be, he'll be well up the infrastructure because, you know, we win big and we lose big. I'll leave it at that.

[James]

Sin boldly they say. Right. That's the only way you know where you're at.

[Host]

God. How'd you find your way into the SEAL teams anyway? So, Chicagoland.

[James]

So we're in Chicago and my parents, they, they, they're. They get divorced. We moved to Indiana. I'm 14 years old, dealing with the divorce transition. We're in a new school system, trying to figure things out. And I actually knew I wanted to go in the military right about that time. 14, 15.

[Host]

Military family?

[James]

No, not really. I have a uncle that was a lieutenant in the Navy. Sub guy. I got an uncle that was a Vietnam Navy vet. But we didn't really spend a lot of time with them. Their story is somewhat significant. There was, there's one story where my uncle was at the Naval Academy and my mom takes us out to the Naval Academy to see him. And while we're there, it was like, you know, I'm just this Midwest boy and we go to this academy and there's guys marching around. I mean, it was the coolest experience that you would hack could possibly have as I might have been 10 years old. And I remember that, you know, the whole. This. What do they call them? What are they? What, a company or something that probably march marching by. And, and he sits me up and we were standing there and he sits me up and he says, check this out. And they all come by as just the most, you know, wild, crazy thing that you would see as a kid.

[Host]

That's a deep core memory, though.

[James]

It's a deep core memory.

[Tom]

That's right.

[James]

That's right. I think it had a huge impact for sure on that decision. Now, fast forward. I was going to go into the army and be a Green Beret. That was my original goal. And I'm walking into the recruiting station and, you know, the recruiting offices are all next to each other.

[Host]

Indeed they are.

[James]

Interestingly right. You know, and so I look over and I see this poster board of these guys, you know, in, in wetsuits and little, little MP5s or something.

[Host]

Like basically probably their arm through the swim fins coming out of the water.

[James]

It looked. Yes. It was almost like it was the COVID of. Of the Charlie Sheen movie Navy seals. And so I looked at that and I go, who are these guys? And the guy goes, Those are Navy SEALs. I go, what's up with these guys? What are they? What's their deal? And he gives me out, you know, the sheet of things that they'll do and what. What you'll learn and.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

And I go, yeah, that's it. That's what I want to do. And he goes, no, nobody makes it.

[Tom]

We.

[James]

And I go, wait, what?

[Host]

That's potentially the most honest recruiter ever.

[James]

Yeah. I was like, oh, really? Nobody makes it, huh?

[Host]

Why.

[James]

Why does nobody make. He goes, oh, at least 85 wash out. And now I'm like, really intrigued. I'm like, you're kidding, right? He's like, no, no, no, no. This is really tough. So I go home and I bring this little piece of paper home, and I'm in high school, and I show my family, and they're like, what the hell are you doing, man? This is a terrible decision. And so they talked me out of it. And my best buddy, he. He joined the army. He left at 17. Well, he graduated. He. He joined at 17. And as soon as he graduated high school, he left, went to boot camp.

[Host]

Is this a post 911 world pre? Okay, right. Probably like right at the 4, right?

[James]

So he leaves in 2000, the summer of 2000. And I wanted to go with him, but I didn't. And he goes to boot camp, and he comes back a little bit different, you know, not. Not. Not entirely different, but a little bit different. 911 happens. They ship him immediately. He goes over, he spends eight months in Iraq. He comes back totally a different guy. I'm like, what the fuck happened to you?

[Host]

What was he doing in the army?

[James]

Do you remember? He was. He. He had been in a few firefights, but I think. I don't know what he was doing.

[Host]

Okay. I was just curious what his MOS was.

[James]

Yeah, I don't know what his mos, but they. They got hit on a convoy, and he came back a totally different guy. And I go, whatever he knows or whatever he experienced, I gotta know what that is. And I didn't put it off any longer. So I began training, went back into the recru, started signing paperwork, and I said, I have to have a contract. I have to go in. We got to do this whole thing. And eventually got my program and got my contract. During that time, I was doing some mixed martial arts fighting miss martial arts.

[Host]

Yeah, let's not leave out the professional 70 fighting career.

[James]

Yeah, well, there was that.

[Host]

How did you get into that, by the way? Like, mma, People who trained mma, which is largely striking in Jiu Jitsu in the modern vernacular. There's a lot of people that do that recreationally. Very few people actually want to step into a cage, even though they'll tell you that they're training for self defense, which I totally get. There's. And there's a difference between training for self defense and wanting to go get into an MMA fight. Two very different people.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I. You know, it was the same thing. I. I watched. I watched. You know, UFC was getting big at that time, and I was watching Randy Couture fight Chuck Liddell, the Iceman. So, you know, that was. That was legendary UFC times for me, at least. I mean, that was.

[Host]

I think it still is.

[James]

I think it still is.

[Host]

I think it still is.

[James]

Those guys were glorious.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

I mean, and. And I'm sitting in my. I'm sitting in my mom's basement with my brother, and I'm watching this, and I'm about 20 years old, and I think, holy, I gotta do that. And so him and I, we start. We decide I'm gonna start training, and I'm gonna fight in mixed martial arts.

[Host]

How long between that decision and your first fight?

[James]

I couldn't say. I look back on it, I mean, maybe a year and a half.

[Host]

Jesus.

[James]

Maybe two. I wrestled all through high school, and I was an okay wrestler and a decent grappler, and I had my fair share of bar fights and things like that. Right. So, not that that gets you too far, but at least I knew I could take a punch.

[Host]

It's exposure to violence that most people, quite frankly, Don and I, and I had.

[James]

I was familiar on a mat, and so I. So I go and look for the nearest Jiu Jitsu gym that's kind of. BJ Penn just kind of rolled onto the scene. And so you realize striking was not what it was. That. That wasn't the total game. You really had to have a good ground game. BJ Penn came on. So I look for a jiu jitsu gym. I start doing a little, like, Muay Thai. I get in this jiu Jitsu gym with this guy, Patrick Robinson, and we're just doing mostly Gi. I think it's pretty much primarily GI wrestling. And he takes a job as the head wrestling coach for one of the local high schools. And I tell, you know, he agrees, he'll take me on as assistant coach. So now I'm coaching a little bit of high school wrestling. I'm in the gym grappling with this guy and his is like a, you know, it's like a sterile environment. Like, it's like, you know, people are trying to gently, sophisticatedly, you know, roll the nerd Assassin. It's the nerd. Then when I show up, it's like there's sweat all over the entire map.

[Host]

You're the steamroller, right?

[James]

And he eventually is like, hey, Tom. All right, listen, I got, I got, let me suggest something to you. I, I got some guys, maybe you'll fit in really well over here. And he gives me the number to this little, this little dungeon MMA gym called Dunlin Valetudo out of Chesterton, Indiana. He gives me the number to this guy. Keith and Justin was two brothers, ran this gym, just. And so I called Keith WSI that night. He goes, yeah, come on, tomorrow night, you know, we practice at whatever, 6pm and so I show up there and you know, it's like the most vivid memory pulling into this parking lot of this shopping mall at the very end in the worst part of town, all the way at the very end. And all the window, the big glass windows and the windows are totally steamed over so you can't see anything, but all you can hear is music. And we can hear people just thudding in there. Don't, don't, don't. And I, here I am like this, I pull in my little piece of car and I'm just sitting here like this. I'm going, oh my God, am I really going to do this? Right? This feels like the most daunting thing that you could possibly imagine doing at this time for me. And then the door opens and this behemoth of a man comes out. He's got a tattoo of a cross, just gigantic bald headed guy. And he walks past my car and he looks right at me and he's got his shirt off and he looks right at me and I just look at like him like this. I go stare. We both stare each other in the eyes and he just gives me this most subtle little nod like that. And I'm like, oh yeah, man, I'm doing this, man, I'm doing this. So I walk in there and, and they had just, you know, the team, the team guys, they have all finished, right? These guys are part of the Dun Valley TUDO team. They're done. I walk in, Keith and Justin, they, they go, hey, who are you? I say, I'm Tom, I talked to you earlier. They say, okay, come here. They go, did you bring shorts? I'm like, yeah, I brought some shorts. And they go, okay, put them on. And then they just proceeded to smash me for an hour and a half, just grind me into the mat, into the corner, down. Everything they had, right? Everything I had. I actually probably wasn't nothing for them. And I stood up at the end, you know, after all this time, there's guys in the gym watching and laughing and pointing, you know, they. He goes, all right, I'll see you tomorrow.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

I go, yeah, man. And I was it. And you know, and that was it. I was hooked. And, and, and, and, and then from that point on, it was about a year, I'd say, before I set up my first fight.

[Host]

Did you like the fights? Did you enjoy it?

[James]

The fighting was the best thing I think I'd ever done. Even if I look back on everything. Yeah. Like the experience for my first fight and the post fight and, and that sensation was, it was just. There's, there's almost nothing has matched that.

[Host]

What, were you nervous before your fight? Were you scared before you fight? Okay. Which is the answer that most people, even professional fighters in the ufc, you hear these interviews, even to this day, they're fighting on the, the largest stage in the world for the most recognizable belt, for the most recognizable organization. They'll tell you they're scared shitless before they walk out. It's a. Yeah. And again, it's, it's easy for people to think they're in there in that cage and they're just Superman and they're not. And I think it's important that people don't forget that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because if you think that, that Superman, the second you think that somebody is Superman, you're putting yourself into this. It's a self limiting place because, like, well, they're Superman and I'm just normal, so I can't do that.

[James]

Yeah, man.

[Host]

What a pathway to hell.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When do you stop doing that? You know, at what point do you eventually say, no, actually I can do that, but you have to at some point.

[Host]

I don't.

[James]

If you want, if you don't want anything different in your life.

[Host]

I think a lot of people are stuck at this person is able to do something more than they are, better than I am, or they have a different skill or I want to do that, but I can't. The obstacles in life are going to be plenty, but I think most people stand in their own way More than the obstacles thrown at you in life.

[James]

Oh, there's no question.

[Host]

Yeah. I mean, let's go back to Buds, right?

[James]

I feel like, yes. Let's go to a great experience of that.

[Host]

Did anybody. Have you ever. So I was there for. As an instructor for 18 months, and I had never once watched an instructor grab a student's hand, wrap their hand around the bell handle and bring it ever. Okay, never. And people tell you so and so instructor made me quit. Like, what do you mean? They carried you over to the bell, they grabbed your hand, they put it around the bell, and they rung it for you.

[James]

Did you. Did kids say that?

[Host]

Oh, guys who say yes. Well, so it wasn't. It was, for me, the most rewarding tour that I did in 17 years. I didn't want to be there when I first went there because I wanted to be where I had left. It made sense of so much going back as an instructor to see why the curriculum was the way that it was. I mean, let me know if this was your experience going well. You got rolled, right? Because you started 264.

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

So I. You started in 212, and I graduated with 212. So the experience was a little bit different because when people would quit, I would never see them again. You. And you probably got to spend more time around them in that off time. In between 264 and 266, as an instructor, I got to spend a lot of time with people who had quit, and I would try to talk to them because I was actually fascinated by it. Like, what? Why? Really? Like, realistically, why? And people will ask me, did you ever consider quitting? And I don't remember a moment where I was thinking, this is it. But I'm also thinking back to 1997. So I'm doing my best to view it through the lens of many decades. Why do some people not consider quitting? And why do some people want to give up talking with those students? They were in a really low emotional state because they had just give up, given up on. Most people would tell you it's their lifelong goal, but they would be really honest. And some of them would say, well, you know, I just couldn't take it anymore, so I had to quit. And I would ask them, I'd say, well, what do you mean you had to? And off. Well, this instructor was in my face, and they were never gonna let up. He made me quit. What do you mean, he made you? I think what you mean to say is you chose to.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because nobody can make you do anything. Right. Quitting is optional, regardless of what it is you're trying to accomplish. And that's a super rough statement because it puts the agency back on the person, which in the world that we live in is the exact opposite of what seems to be the norm. But watching students quit, it's a really. I view BUDS very differently now. It's a laboratory test on it. Quitting. And I wish that there was a way to reverse engineer. If you can figure out why people quit, why can't we reverse engineer that and make people as bulletproof as possible? I think you can. But the. The reason that it doesn't really get much traction is that it lands on the person absorbing the information and then they have to do really, really, really hard work.

[James]

That's right.

[Host]

Physically and mentally.

[James]

What. What do you. Based on your. In that experience. What. What is it that makes guys quit? I mean, what.

[Host]

What would you. One thing and one time how they view time.

[James]

Okay. Okay. Okay. That's good. That's great. You know, I. All. All the buts, including Hell Week.

[Host]

Time.

[James]

Time was the only thing that was on my mind.

[Host]

There are two ways.

[James]

I divided time into fractions of moments.

[Host]

That's why you were successful.

[James]

And I calculated over and over. And every time I would see your watch, you. You were my second phase instructor. I don't know if I did in second phase, but certainly in Hell Week.

[Host]

Yeah. You know, we would set our. You know that we would set our watches incorrectly.

[James]

Yeah. No, you.

[Host]

Yes, we would.

[James]

You guys, we wouldn't.

[Host]

Do you think anything accidental happens in Hell Week? So. Or in training?

[James]

All the calculating I did was not even correct.

[Host]

Correct.

[James]

And it was just in my head that I had figured this out and that gave me. So it was really, really only in my head because the time calculations weren't even right.

[Host]

The things in your head were the only things that mattered. So think about this. Students going into buds, which we'll call it 183 days.

[James]

Wow.

[Host]

Nothing happens there. That is accidental. So look interesting. Two students. One of them has 183 little 3M yellow stickies. And the top one says 183 and the next one's 182. All the way down to one. And he puts those up on his wall in the barracks. The other student says, I don't care how many days I have left because my goal is just to make it through today. The difference in those two students. Percentage point, graduating. Almost everybody who's sitting there, who my God, I made it through the first day. And they peel it off and they look at that number, they go, yeah, can I do this for 182 more days? That destroys you. Their view of time. Hell Week is the same thing. The advice I was given by a brown shirt. And for people listening, if post Hell Week, which is in first phase, which when I went through is the fifth week, was it the same for you?

[James]

I think it was fourth week when I went through it. What is it now? Is it.

[Host]

I don't know, actually.

[James]

I don't either after something. It was third week, but I don't know.

[Host]

It might be. So before that you wear a white shirt. After that you wear a brown shirt. So I got some advice from a brown shirt, meaning somebody who had successfully made it through Hell Week. And the guy said, don't worry about what day it is. Don't worry about it. The sun is up. Just make it to the next meal. Because they have to feed you every six hours. The caloric requirement of that portion of training is ungodly. So that's what I did. I just thought about making it to the next meal. And if you. Which is call it six hours and you could chunk that down to one hour or the evolution that you're. You're with. But who cares what day it is if you're just trying to make it to the next meal? Because eventually the next meal is going to be on a Friday and you're going to be standing out in the surf and they're going to secure you from Hell Week. The difference between that student that can do that and the student that says, okay, it's Sunday, five more days, it's Monday morning. Four and a half more days. One is tolerable, not easily tolerable. The other one becomes overwhelming. How they view time.

[James]

Why can't we get that across to them? Why will some of them figure this out? Or some of them will take and heed this advice and learn it and use it, and then some won't. Some will go right back to 182.

[Host]

Days because it's an academic principle that's hard to live. You got to remember the immense amount of physical pressure we're able to apply as an instructor. Some people cannot detach the way that they think from the way that they feel.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

And I think that's the beauty of that selection process.

[James]

Yeah. So being good at disassociating really helps, huh?

[Host]

Yes. Not in all aspects of life, but not at all.

[James]

But if you've learned that how to do that. You might have an upper hand in buds. Possibly. You might legitimately.

[Host]

Or if you practice, or if you.

[James]

Practice this, there's, I mean, compartmentalizing some of these things.

[Host]

You know, how I'd give a kid an up and hand in buds. I would explain to them that concept of time. Yeah. And then I would explain to them the value of bending themself before the world bends them. Find something every day that physiologically or psychologically challenges you and intentionally go do that even if you don't want to. And when you're in the middle of it, go for a little bit longer than you think you can. And you know, tell yourself, hey, I can always do one more rep. I can always do one more step. I can always do one more lap around. Fill in the blank like that. That is how you weaponize a human being, in my opinion.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. That is. That is high performance individual for sure.

[Host]

Yeah. It can also be taken too far.

[James]

Everything can. Well, everything is a gift and a curse, isn't it?

[Host]

I mean, I'll speak broadly about my divorce. My ex wife and I agree we probably should have ended it 10 years before. You know, probably the main reason when I look back that I. That I didn't make that decision, I didn't want to be called a quitter.

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

Because it was the only equity in the community that we came from. Quitting was the only currency or your ability to not give up. And I fucking took that into my personal life. And it can destroy you.

[James]

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. How do you create boundaries and then how do you move them if I know? I mean, isn't that what this whole journey of life is about? How do I know what's best for me and then how do I set boundaries according to that? And then how do I move them when I realize I need to move them?

[Host]

That's the key.

[James]

Right.

[Host]

Life's not static, so you have to.

[James]

Move, but, you know, we want it to be so static. Like I did love, I loved the military because they just tell you what to do. I mean, I loved BUDS because it was a real. It was a crazy adventure. Right. It was wild, endless challenge. You're like, you never know what's going to happen as a bud student, but you also get just told what to do and you just do it. And even in the military, once you make it and you're in the teams, it's really, you know, you don't have to make a whole lot of decisions. So that's where you.

[Host]

That's where people hiccup on the way out, but once you're out, you have to. Now you've got special operations, in my opinion, is non linear problem solving. Where people get hung up is that we're presented with the problems. Very rarely inside of special operations are you the one finding the problem to solve?

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like if you get overseas.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

There's a. Here's your target deck. Like, cool, do you want me to go alphabetically? Who's the person? You know what I mean? And if you do a great job, they say, good job, here's another one. And you can do that ad nauseam. You do that for a career. You're so good at solving problems, then you get out of the military. And if you want to reinvent yourself, you have to now figure out what problems need to be solved or what problems you want to. And that, my friend, can be an interesting journey.

[James]

That is one journey for sure.

[Host]

And I see a lot of guys, and there's nothing wrong with this. I see a lot of guys who will do an adjacent career to the military because I think it relieves a little bit of that stress. Maybe they'll go contract, maybe they'll go work for an Alphabet soup agency. And if you think about it from just the lens of somebody either presenting problems to you or you're finding the problem to solve, they're trending a little bit more towards still people presenting the problems. And I'm not saying that negatively. I understand the draw to do that. But man, if you get to a place where you realize you get to pick your problem and then you start having a good time and exploring and realizing that, oh, I'm gonna be okay. Because if I never give up and I just take the same mindset that I had for almost two decades and apply that to the civilian world, people better look the fuck out. Yeah, you can do amazing things.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

Tough though. Easier said than done.

[James]

Easier said than done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I, I feel like my transition. Out, out. Co. I did that same thing, but I used football and I used going, going to Northwestern, playing football, it was the same thing. You know, you just do your job and you don't really have to make a whole lot of hard decisions. Right.

[Tom]

You're.

[Host]

Isn't it easy? This is what I need to do today because my boss told me I.

[James]

Got to be here at 6am Just like I'm used to and I'm gonna get everything scheduled for me.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

So, you know, and so that helps with the transition, but it does help to have something like that that kind of, kind of scaffolds you into your new, new life and you slowly are beginning to learn how to do what's best for yourself instead of what's best for. Right. The Navy, the country, your team. It just takes time and it takes it. And it's great to have a few people at least that see it and they maybe have experienced it or at the very least, they're super compassionate and gentle and they can just walk you through it and they can watch you stumble, they can watch you go through all the ups and downs, but they're just there for you. Like, like, kind of like a dad.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

It's nice if you got a somebody that can treat you like they're your father and they can slowly help you through some of these things. I mean that, not everybody has that.

[Host]

But that, that describes my entire seal career, to be honest. I was young, I was 18 when I was going through buds. 19 when I got to my first team. I had my bird before I was 21. Lost my bird the first time before I was 21 also. But whatever got it back eventually.

[James]

So what did they actually, did they just pull it off your uniform?

[Host]

So we had switched over patches and I was at captain's mast and he slid a pair of scissors across the table and said, why don't you cut? I'd had it for six weeks.

[James]

I lost my bird too.

[Host]

Did you one time, like physio, like you just left it in your car or no. What'd you do?

[James]

Please remove that from your.

[Host]

I, I got pin or patch?

[James]

Patch.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

And then I had, I had to stand watch at the front at the guard station in Coronado. Every single guy come through. It was, I was after my second platoon.

[Host]

What did you do?

[James]

I, I got, I got kicked out of Humvee school in Reno.

[Host]

I didn't know that was possible. Tell me more.

[James]

Hum, long story, but I give me the wave tops.

[Host]

What'd you do?

[James]

I, I, I went in, I, I was too pump chumping it and I was pissed that they sent me there because I had already done two and that was a new guy school.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

And I thought I was going to go to Iraq and just drive Humvees like it was nothing. Right. No big deal. Well, they made me go to this school and I did not take even an ounce of it seriously. I was driving around like drinking Red Bulls while we were rock climbing these mountains and just treated everybody like total. I was the biggest asshole arrogant two pumper that you would ever Meet.

[Host]

Isn't being young fun?

[James]

Oh, my gosh. And so I. I look in the rearview mirror.

[Host]

I'm like, God, if I could just get in a time machine.

[James]

I think about some of these moments, and that's for sure one of them. But we went out and we went. We went into the. Into Reno and drank and gambled. And I came back and. And I parked the Humvee, like in a. In a crook way crooked way, right out in front. And we came back at like three in the morning. And then I gun decked the. The pre checks on it.

[Host]

Gun deck means you. There's like a checklist you just skip. It actually would be a good term for gun decking. That would be. I'm trying to think of the best. I mean, it's a Navy term for sure. It's basically saying you did the work and you didn't.

[James]

I did. That's right. That's right. So I just went, check, check, check, check, check. Right. We were just gonna go drive around somewhere and, you know, in some hills over there, so I didn't think it was a big deal. And they. They wanted me out of there anyway because I was being such an ass. And they called me into the office and said, hey, we're gonna kick your ass out of here. And I go, what?

[Host]

Why?

[James]

And they go, we caught your gun deck in the whole thing. And I said, how do you catch me? And they pulled up the footage from the. From the security camera on the barracks. I'm like, oh, no, you guys really do have. Have evidence of this. And I said, okay, fine. And I had to call my. Call my LPO and tell them, hey, I'm coming home early and I'm not getting my driver's license.

[Host]

How long they take your bird from you?

[James]

Not long. It was really a. A short one. But after I finished that, I think I did two. Maybe two mornings out on the.

[Host]

Guard.

[James]

Guard state. Yeah, Guard check.

[Host]

It's a good wakeup call, isn't it?

[James]

Oh, man. It was the worst thing you could ever think of, standing out there with no bird.

[Host]

Dude, I was at team five just like this.

[James]

Hi, guys.

[Host]

Yeah, hi. So I'm at team five, my first platoon. I fucking cut my bird off. And then I have to go back to my platoon and, you know, and you're in uniform occasionally, and I'm just the only asshole out of 16 standing there with a pair of cammies that clearly has a rectangular section where something used to be. And I'm just like, awesome. So it course corrected me Though for the rest of my life.

[James]

Yeah. What would happen?

[Host]

Sometimes you need to pull a knife in a bar fight and then run from the cops and then get caught by the same cops because you told them where you were staying but forgot about that.

[James]

Wow, nice.

[Host]

Is it though? Was it nice? No, it wasn't fucking nice.

[James]

Well, it's nice now.

[Host]

It course corrected me for the rest of my life.

[James]

Exactly.

[Host]

The biggest lesson. So I was brand new. We were at Davis Montreal Air Force Base is where we were staying. We were out there doing cast close air support. The air crew had something else to do that day. I think we were using a 10s and the 16s, whatever they had out there at the time. And so we were going to drive back the next day. We have, you know, classic Econoline 16 pack van. I think we had like two of them.

[James]

Van. Did you guys van wars in there?

[Host]

Oh God, constantly. People don't understand the level of violence in a van fight. No, they don't.

[James]

But every time I see one of those vans, that's all I know.

[Host]

There's a little bit of PTSD from those for sure.

[James]

Even the van we got in from the airport today, I mean, I was thinking about this and reminiscing anyway, so it was on my mind.

[Host]

There's a little post traumatic stress associated with the Econoline van. But you know, we had a day off before we were gonna drive back. It's 10 in the morning, so what do we do? We immediately start drinking. I'm underage, I get carried into a strip club. This is where we started by my lpo, so they didn't even check my id. And it goes to later in the day, we're in the night in an Irish bar and there was a guy in my platoon, I'll give you his name offline. He ended up actually interfacing at a federal level with law enforcement. Just running his mouth and looking back. And again, this is through the lens of many decades. I knew that he was out of control. I knew that somebody needed to stop him before, like the classic error chain, like can we just break one of these chains here and stop this? He ends up talking shit to a woman at a bar who happened to be related to the person that owned the bar. So they call the cops. He gets dragged out, tries to fight them or the bouncers. The cops show up. We talk him out of the back of the cop car. He's in the silver bracelets in the back. We talk to the cops. During which I pulled a real Jason Bourne moment and just told him my name and where we were staying. In the duty station we were attached with. Yeah. He gets out of. They're like, we're gonna let him go, but you guys need to take him home. He gets out of the cop car. We go around the corner of the building. He immediately just walks directly at another bouncer and starts talking shit. You know, I'm 160 pounds at the time, and if I look back, the reality is I was scared and I didn't know what to do.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

So he was talking shit to that bouncer, turned around and started walking back towards me. And it was just. He was walking towards me, and I was off of his right shoulder looking at the bouncer. And the bouncer had a crutch. There was something wrong with his foot. And he picked it up, and he looked like he was going to swing it. And I had a Spyderco on me because I'm an idiot. And I pulled it out and I flipped it open. I just put it up against the side of my leg. And I said, I don't think you want to do that. He put the crutch down. I put the knife away. He started yelling for the cops. I handed the knife off and had a moment of thought of, do I stay or do I go? And obviously the move is, you go.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Not legal advice for anybody. Do not repeat my mistakes. So I take off, end up getting away from him. We end up going to another bar as cops are, like, looking for me all over the place. That same dude gets his ass beat by another group of people that he had talked to. And, you know, so we end up making our way back. The fucking command master chief is waiting for us. He's flipping tables, and he's just pissed at me, you know, because I was a. Probably an E4 at the time. First platoon. First trip of my first platoon. With my bird. With my bird.

[James]

Wow. Wow.

[Host]

And I have to go to a chief's mast. And I remember before I went in there, I had this split of. I'm gonna say this was everybody else's fault but my own, because that's how I was originally thinking about it. And then I was like, you know, what? What now? That. Yeah, this was completely on me. And that was the shift that I had. And so I went into the chiefs mass. You know, they asked me about what happened, and then what would I do differently? And I answered him honestly, like, I should have stopped the person. And the reason I didn't is that I was the Youngest, most junior new guy. And I thought that the people I was with or not that I thought the people that I was with were my heroes.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

So if they had said crawl through fire, I would have said, okay, how far do you want me to do that? And that is the wrong way to think about it. Like, if you. You have. Don't look for somebody else to do the right thing. Do the right thing. And it changed the course of who I am as a person. Let me tell you, though, it's hard to cut a trident off while wearing a camouflage top. That skipper and the scissors were dull too. That really getting that first purchase in there to get it on the thread was tough.

[James]

Why. Why did they stop banging the tridents in?

[Host]

They didn't.

[James]

Are they still doing it?

[Host]

I can't speak to that. What they were doing then I 100% experienced the tried and guess so did I. Yeah, I don't think that they have. I think that they just do it quietly.

[James]

Okay. Yeah, we did it quietly as well. Okay.

[Host]

Yeah, we got.

[James]

As long as it's still going on.

[Host]

We did the ceremony where you get the right eight and a half by 11 piece of paper, go hit the surf. I'm like, oh, oh, no. Go hit the surf to go back to your platoon space. And things happen differently than the. Just the piece of paper, if you know what I mean.

[James]

Yeah, well, yeah. Just to get an idea, the family that I come from for. For our trident ceremony, my family comes into San Diego. My uncles get in the biggest fight that there ever was. What. What's the hotel that's further south down the Strand? Nice hotel. It's.

[Host]

Oh, it's on the Bayside. I know exactly what you're talking about.

[James]

They're in there. There's blood all over that white. Who are they fighting each other? Yes, My. My dad and his two brothers are fighting each other. They get thrown out of there. They get kicked out.

[Host]

The Lowe's Resort.

[James]

The Lowe's Resort. That's where they were all staying at. My family's staying at the Lowe's Resort. So then. So. So my grandfather, my grandmother, my uncles, my aunts, their kids. It's like 30 people there. They get kicked out, the whole family. And. And manager comes out and they say, okay, all right. These three. These guys are kicked out and they think they're going back to the room. And the manager goes, no, all of of you guys are out. And so they leave and check into the Coronado Hotel.

[Host]

Dell.

[James]

Dell.

[Host]

Oh, boy.

[James]

Right. So the next morning is. Is the is the Trident ceremony and in walking my, my dad and my uncles, their faces are all covered in bandages, bloody.

[Host]

What started to build up.

[James]

They were out drinking all night long.

[Host]

Well, I mean, obviously they were out all. Most fights don't start themselves.

[James]

They, they, I, you know what? They, they got in an argument and it just turned into a maddening incident.

[Host]

If you can't beat the out of your brothers, who can you beat the out?

[James]

Well, I mean, you probably should, you know, think about the venue maybe or.

[Host]

Leave it to open where it's at. Like, let's just go open here.

[Tom]

Didn't some of them have invitations to the ceremony and others didn't.

[James]

That's true. Yeah. So I, I, yeah, so there were some issues with who was going to go and invitation, so there was a little bit of shit talking going on.

[Host]

All right. I mean, I appreciate that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Walk me through, walk me through your SEAL career because the stuff that you've done afterwards is equally as interesting to me.

[James]

Well, my seal, I went to team.

[Host]

1266 1st 266 team 1 for people listening. Odd numbers west coast, even numbers east. So you walked metaphorically 50 yards from the buds compound in your first command. Yeah, well, actually not metaphorically. That'd be literally.

[James]

It was actually literally.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

Yeah. I, I was, I started in 264, but I got rolled in second phase for the tread.

[Host]

For the tread?

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

The is wrong with you.

[James]

Tread's hard.

[Host]

The tread is easy.

[James]

The tread almost killed me. I think I actually, the tread did.

[Host]

Not almost kill you. We are there as an instructor to save you.

[James]

So I.

[Host]

It's a one to one ratio. We're not going to let you die. Probably.

[James]

I got an I wish I knew who my, my one instructor was.

[Host]

Describe the tread for people who are unaware of it.

[James]

Well, second phase. I spent an enormous amount of time on pool comp practicing.

[Host]

Pool comp.

[James]

Right. Just, you know, where are my straps at?

[Host]

But that's after the tread.

[James]

Right?

[Host]

You got to get to the tread.

[James]

I know I overlooked the tread. I thought too exactly what you just said. So anybody listening the tread is not easy. Do not overlook.

[Host]

For anybody listening, the tread is very easy.

[James]

Don't overlook it.

[Host]

Let me do my job. I have to emotionally prepare them for failure.

[James]

Put oh, and you will fail.

[Host]

Are you over there googling the tread, Michael? I don't know if there's a good video.

[James]

The most miserable way. So I, I get in the water. You got to describe what it is though. Every configuration. Right. I, you know, So I got a 12 pound weight basket weight belt on.

[Host]

With your twins.

[James]

With twins. Big twins on the back. Right. And.

[Host]

But let's not forget the one key piece of gear that should help you in this. Your fins.

[James]

Yeah. Well, how about that for a, you know, a twisted little trick that is. I would rather egg beater the thing.

[Host]

It would be way easier.

[James]

So the fins are on and I get in the water. I really think it's going to be a piece of cake.

[Host]

This is. And so this is five minutes. And as an instructor, what you're looking at, like if you bend your wrist, there's usually like two creases. You need to have basically the creases of the skin in your wrist above water. So they need to be what would be camera angle. People can see basically that much of your hand out of the water, both hands out. If the person is sinking a little bit. But they do their best to keep and not use their hands for assistance. Let's just say there's a little bit of room for interpretation for the instructor. If they put their hands in and they start sculling with their hands, that's a fail. I would let students go underwater as long as they didn't use their hands and they could come back up. But again, there was a little bit of a deviation. By the book. Hands out of the water, 5 minutes. Vertical treading configuration.

[James]

Yeah. Pure hell.

[Host]

Considered to be the easiest evolution in buds.

[James]

Thanks for that.

[Host]

Only in the history of buds, three people have ever failed.

[James]

That's not true.

[Host]

It is not true. It's fun to say though.

[James]

You know, I'm all right. I now I love, I love it if I fail. Yeah, that's where you learn. It's okay, right? It's okay. And I'm cool with it. But they. So I had my, I had my hands out of the water, as does.

[Host]

Everybody when they start for the first two minutes.

[James]

And then I still had my hands out of the water, only my head never came out of the water. Then after that, so I'm on breath hold probably in, you know, around three minutes.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

And come up and you just get a little tiny squeak of air. And then after that, there was no more of that anymore. That air was gone and going in the water. Well, you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom]

So.

[James]

So here I am now, I'm flailing in the water. I know that I've, I've failed because he told me and I think, well, good, I'm done with this then. So 5 minutes is 5 minutes. Start working my way over to the side of the pool.

[Host]

He.

[James]

He intervenes and gets between me and the edge of the pool, and he kicks me back out in the water. And I give him the look of like, what's the problem here, bud?

[Host]

We're gonna get our five minutes.

[James]

He goes, you got five minutes. You signed up for five minutes. I go, oh, really?

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

Okay, so. So now even with my hands in the water, and he goes, and I still want you to have your hands out of the water.

[Host]

I go, okay, well, there is one way. There is one way to short circuit the five minutes. And I've only seen it one time. I've seen a guy quit on the tread post hell week.

[James]

And he just. He just is in there and said, I quit.

[Host]

He deor'd.

[James]

I almost did that. I. You know, now I'm. Now I'm starting to sink below the water, even with my hands in the water. That's how tired I got within this little, you know, short time frame. And I'm so exhausted, and. And I couldn't get back to the surface. And I. And I get this really brilliant idea that, you know, he will take me out of this pool if I'm dead.

[Host]

True.

[James]

And so I go like this, and I just go stiff.

[Host]

You played dead. Play dead. Let me guess what happened. He just sat there and watched. You were playing dead.

[James]

And I go like this. And I just. I stared off into the distance, and I just let my weight belt take me down to the bottom. And I just see him. He looks and I. His. His expression changed a bit. And then he dives down and swims, and he gets this close to my face, and he looks right in my eyes, and then I just see this giant smile on his face, and he starts laughing, and his bubbles come out, and I. And that's when I knew. He's not gonna save me, is he? He knows I'm not dead.

[Host]

You'd be surprised how many times people played dead. And you just sit there.

[James]

I wondered if I was the only guy.

[Host]

No, no. So you'd sit there. Let me tell you, as an instructor, the tread is very easy. I don't know what you guys are complaining about out there, because I'm just sitting there watching you. One to one ratio, we got you. You're gonna get out of the pool. I have seen every version of somebody try to play dead. And so what you let them do. Here's the varsity move. You let them go to the bottom.

[James]

Yep, I did that.

[Host]

And at some point, they realize that you realize that they're faking it, and they come back to life. Life.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I resurrected myself.

[Host]

There I was, see?

[James]

And. And I. And I got a little push off the bottom and back to the surface. I went and. And toughed out the last however long.

[Host]

And I'm surprised you didn't pop your own CO2. That's a move that a lot of the students make when they resurrect themselves on the bottom.

[James]

No, no, I didn't go that far.

[Host]

When that happens, the instructors will come and hold down the valve on your life jacket and let the CO2 out. Because we get our five minutes.

[James]

Yes. So I got. You guys got your five minutes on me.

[Host]

So for the listener, though, you get four attempts at this. So you had three more shots.

[James]

Yeah. All those attempts look the exact same way. Just about. Really? Yes.

[Host]

So what, were your legs getting tired? Were you having a hard time?

[James]

I just had. No, I just. I didn't practice it at all. So I just had. I just. I could not get the muscle memory and the breath work right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

And I was exhausted within two minutes. So I had put so much into that first one. I knew that there was no way I was going to pass anything after that.

[Host]

Even though they were on subsequent days.

[James]

Well, yeah, right. But I. I had no ability to figure out how to do this. It was.

[Host]

Okay. So then you get rolled.

[James]

So I get rolled.

[Host]

I'm assuming you practice the living out of this.

[James]

I could. I could literally pass that thing with my elbows out of the water the next time I took it.

[Host]

So I'm going to assume that you. First time out. Six. Six. You first time. Okay, good. Okay. Again, training that is designed to throw failure at you. And there are two different people.

[James]

But that's one of those. That's a moment that I. I look back on and I mean, that was like. That really was a. I died that day. I mean, fake died. I faked it, but something in me died. Right. It was like I realized there was no way anyone was gonna save me from here on out.

[Host]

We would have pulled you of the pool.

[James]

Well, you would have, but I would have been dead now.

[Host]

You're.

[James]

Technically. I'd have been somewhere in between there.

[Host]

So at one time, I was doing the tread. It was a. It was a foreign exchange student. And at about 30 seconds in, they decided the evolution for them that day was going to be over, so they did the same thing. First it was. Weight belt got dropped. So I went and got it and looped it over the back of their twin 80s in a position that they could no longer touch it. CO2 cartridge fired, pull the little handle to let it out of the vest. And I'm. And at this point, like I am aware that this person is having a religious experience out of body, if you will. So I'm way closer than you and I are. I'm sitting there face to face and I'm just kind of doing the float where you have your arms crossed in front of you. This guy's last ditch move was a heroic kick. And he came up and he wrapped his arms around me as the instructor. And I just started laughing and slowly exhaling. So we became negatively buoyant and just had mask to mask eye contact with this guy as we went to the bottom of the pool. At which point he let go and I went back up to the top. He was just down there.

[James]

So what did he do?

[Host]

Passed out.

[James]

How many guys pass out? Probably not that many in the tread. Unless they.

[Host]

Not on the tread. You get him 50 meter underwater, you're gonna get some people. That's first phase, though, pool comp. Quite a few. Yeah, quite a few. Because they just, they just take it too far. It's actually after administering pool comp, you can tell when people are going to get ready to go out. You know, they start the. That's the first part. But that's not necessarily the indication that they're going to pass out yet. As soon as bubbles start to come out of their mouth when they're doing that, they're right at the lip of being able to go out. And then. And I mean, you're watching this as an instructor and you're right there with them and you just grab them and bring them up. They're out for maybe five seconds and, you know, red line. Drag him to the side of the pool and a guy with seven years of medical school slaps him in the face. I'm like, I could do that.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Host]

And then just. They come back and that's it. Next. Yeah, but you get four shots at it, you'll be all right.

[James]

But I do recall all of you guys, guys laughing your asses off at me after you failed me.

[Host]

Of course.

[James]

Yeah, that was.

[Host]

What else are we supposed to do?

[James]

All a great laugh. Oh, well, hey, this guy tried to pretend that he died.

[Host]

Oh, it happens to all this. It's amazing. The best, though, is as the instructor watching the fake death, knowing at some point there'll be a real resurrection.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Which usually is going to occur about 12ft underwater, which is really an emergency. For them, but not an emergency for us. It's great. It's better than tv. Today's episode is brought to you by True Work. Damn, these people make some cool stuff. One of the cool things about doing ad reads for brands is that they're going to send you some of their products so you can talk about it from firsthand perspective. I don't have their pants on today, but man, they sent me one of the coolest pairs of work pants that I've ever had. And you just understand when a brand gets it and they're being intelligent in their design, everywhere that you would reach that you would want to have maybe your phone or in this case, the work pants, you would want to have a pencil or a pen or a pocket that would be good for filling the blank. And you put your hand there, like, damn, it's already there. Their pants are ridiculous. I'm not joking. I think I wore those things for a week straight when I first got them. And they're just in my rotation now. They're spectacular. So Truewerk as a brand, they're hell bent on creating the most technical, high performance workwear in the world. Their story, the True Work story, began in the Colorado mountains, where a trade worker knew there had to be a better solution than the wet heavy gear that was weighing him down. Man, I know exactly what you're talking about. So the pants they gave me specifically, they are soft, but they're stretchy, sweat, waking, soft shell, and are a major upgrade over wet heavy jeans. I remember working for my father long ago and that is actually kind of what I wore to protect myself jeans. And they suck. There's nothing technically complex about denim, at least when I was wearing it when I was 11, it was horrible. So with those pants, wind and waterproof shells that use intelligently placed insulation for streamlined warmth that lets you stay mobile and agile. Every True Work product is engineered for maximum comfort, protection and efficiency with minimum bulk or extra weight. I'm telling you, when you get some of their stuff, you'll think, hey, this would be a perfect spot for. And they've already gotten there for you. They've already beat you to the finish line. And that's the product that you have in your hand. Trueork has over 50,000. You heard me correct. 50,000. Five star reviews and countless stories from trade pros in every state and every job across the country. You can upgrade to True work for a major change in the way that you work. And True Work helps you be your best when the best is what matters. Most. If this sounds interesting to you, check out the full lineup and get 15% off your first [e-mail] ClearedHot. That's 15% off at TrueWerk. T R U E W E R K, Whiskey, Echo, Romeo, kilo.com cleared hot. You're not going to be disappointed. Check them out.

[James]

Yeah, I can see that.

[Host]

Thank you for that. You're welcome. All right, so walk me through your career.

[James]

So I went to team one. I did. So right away, we were there. There was an opportunity to augment, and so I'll. There was kind of like a little bit of a competition between the platoons that were gonna get picked to augment. So right away, as soon as I walk into team one, that's going on that conversation and my chief's vying for this. This augmentation.

[Host]

What year is this?

[James]

2008.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

So we end up. Our platoon and our sister platoon end up kind of winning that sort of battle. I. I guess that was going on. I'm a new guy, so I didn't really know too much of what.

[Host]

Yeah, it's above your pay grade a little bit.

[James]

I'm just busting my ass as hard as I can. And then when they said, hey, hey, we need you to work hard because we may be able to augment and go to Afghan Afghanistan with.

[Host]

With.

[James]

With Dev Group guys, it's like, I'll do whatever you want me to do. So we ended up getting chosen for that. We deployed, went to Afghanistan, attached to Red Squadron. We were there for about three months. It was pretty cool. Came back. Then we went to the. I went to. Then we went to the Philippines, Did a trip in Philippines, Basilon Island. Came back, and I did an Iraq tour to Kirkuk. And then while I was. While we were leaving Iraq, we're in Kuwait. I get the call that my wife was taking the kids and moving back to Indiana, so she was leaving me. And so while you're overseas.

[Host]

While I'm overseas, man, that's.

[James]

It was rough.

[Host]

There's not like there's a great time.

[James]

I mean, my first response was, was, you know, good riddance. You know, fine. I'm going back to the teams. I'm. Yeah. But after a couple weeks, I. I talked to my lieutenant, and he said, we can get you a billet at Great Lakes if you're interested, which is in Chicago, nor at Navy boot camp. It's like a dive motivator as a Buds Prep was there. Oh, Buds Prep program. So I went and LPO'd. Buds Prep.

[Host]

Okay. And they started that after I went through, and then I. From my understanding, they shut it down.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're trying to. Why did they bring it back again? I mean, it was a little bit of chaos over there. I mean, there was nobody watching us. Zero oversight.

[Host]

I mean, that's problem though.

[James]

But that was fine. Yeah, I think it's money, financial.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

But they had it there for a couple years after I left. So I went there and I just kind of tried to reconcile my marriage and get my, my life and my family, my kids back. I never really had an intention of getting out at that point, but. But, you know, once you. Once I got there and I started spending lots of time with my kids, I had two boys at this time, spending time at home. I bought a house. I, you know, I see guys going to school, getting degrees, transitioning out. All these things are going on, and I start thinking, man, this. I think I could do this.

[Host]

How many years had you been in?

[James]

I was at about eight years in.

[Host]

That's a good go. No go.

[James]

Yeah, I knew I was at that spot. I wanted to go and screen for green team, you know, originally, but that sort of dream dwindled a little bit at that point. I also was stationed there with Dave Gogins. Dave Goggins was my chief there. And so he's, you know, doing his crazy stuff. And I kind of, you know, spent a lot of time with him and he was one of the guys that pushed me towards going to Northwestern and playing football there. You know, he just kind of had this crazy idea that this is what. This. You could do this if you want. And so I started looking at that as an option and, and as I. He took me down to Northwestern and he spoke with the football team and I got to meet coach Pat Fitzgerald and. And that's when I asked him if he thought I could come play for him. And he said, hell yeah, come on out.

[Host]

And how much football experience did you have at this point?

[James]

High school.

[Host]

Excellent.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Good. A little bit of a break in between.

[James]

You know, I was just kind of.

[Host]

Healing up a little bit and getting.

[James]

My body right, getting prepared. Prepared.

[Host]

So you had to have gotten out of the military, though, to go to Northwestern, right?

[James]

No, I was. I was still active duty at Bud's Prep, so.

[Host]

To play football.

[James]

Football there too, yeah.

[Host]

Really?

[James]

So I was doing a pretty ridiculous schedule at that time. It was like, wow. Leave the house at 4:30. I'd be in. In Evanston at practice or. Or film or whatever. We were doing weightlifting in the morning, drive back to Great Lakes during the day, fulfill my duties at BUDS Prep, then drive back down in the evenings if I had classes and take and do whatever else I had to. So it was like I was doing like 12 hour, you know.

[Host]

How'd your wife like that?

[James]

She loved it, man. She was so happy that I was doing that. No, she hated, I was gonna say.

[Host]

I was gonna say she was happy that you weren't there. Is that what you mean?

[James]

She hated all of it. It was, it was a tough time, right? You know, I mean, you're just, you just, you just make some, some strange decisions at those times in your life. As if, you know, I had convinced myself that this was in the benefit for my family and my kids, that this is what needed to happen in order for me to transition out of the military successfully and provide for my family and my kids. Like, if I'm going to do that, this is what would need to happen.

[Host]

It's the same lie that I told myself and I think a lot of other people tell themselves when we're in that the job can never suffer first.

[James]

Why?

[Host]

Because we'd be considered a quitter to those around us. Right. Again, this currency. And you will sacrifice everything to include personal life, relationships and marriages to be the best team guy that you can be. It's all a fucking lie, man. If I could go back, I wish I could balance that way better. I don't know if I was capable of it at that phase in my life. And I don't want to say that the job isn't important or any of those things. When I say it's a lie, I'm talking specifically only about myself in the way that I view it, not anybody else. But yeah, because I had, I told myself those same things and missed time with my kids. Did every deployment that I could do.

[Tom]

Right.

[Host]

Fear of missing out. Fear of not being there. Fear of not being good enough. What will the guys think of me if I say that I can't go on this trip because my relationship with my wife is struggling? Job suffered last. Always.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think that there's any way to come to that conclusion without going through it all? I wish I could tell.

[Host]

Sucks.

[James]

I, I, I wish I could even tell, you know, so as a dad now, those, they won't listen. Those things, those kind of ideas terrorize you.

[Host]

They won't listen.

[James]

Can I, can, can I, can, can I help them to absorb these lessons? Or do they have to do it all themselves? Do they have to Go through that whole ridiculous. Those series of events that I went through to get to here. To have the idea to know that I don't. I don't have to do that. I don't have to prove myself. I don't have to live up to anything. I don't have that fear of missing out. I don't need anybody to love me or like me. I don't need any of that. It's not my job to save everybody. Can my. Or do they just have to go through that?

[Host]

I think two things.

[James]

And that's okay.

[Host]

I think two things can be true. Both can be true. I think at best we can help round the edges of the corner.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

There is an aspect of them having to experience at least a portion of what you're talking about. For I think it to be a concrete lesson. Because knowledge, absent the experience. You know what I mean? This book knowledge says I should do this. And in this case, book knowledge would be you. Are I literally trying to crack the heads of our children with knowledge that they're like, fuck you. I've learned better things on TikTok, but they're gonna still make mistakes. My hope is to help my children at least miss the catastrophic ones that I made because I've made plenty along the way that were not catastrophic with which lesson could still be learned if I was in a place where I was ready to receive that lesson. So they're going to. They're going to fail galactically. But I think you could probably. If. If it's a stereo equalizer, like a one to a ten. Maybe you could keep it at a six.

[James]

Did you. Was your dad around?

[Host]

He lives up here now.

[James]

Does he really?

[Host]

Successfully extracted him from Santa Cruz.

[James]

Oh, man. That's cool. And he's a part of your life and you guys.

[Host]

Oh, yeah. I'll do episodes with him. And they're awesome. They're some of my favorites because they're time capsules. But he's also an absolute pain in the ass.

[James]

Really?

[Host]

Yeah. I tell him to his face now that I'm looking for homes to put him in. He. He hangs out at the coffee shop. He, like, monopolizes our manager's time. He's. He's starting to tell me I need to make T shirts that just have his beard on it because he's been on the show. So people reach out to him and tell him that. That. So he tells me to which I say no. So now he's telling other people to tell me that I should do that.

[James]

You should get A shirt with his beard on it. Yeah, that would be cool.

[Host]

Yeah, trust me, I've heard that. So he plays Santa Claus during Christmas for us.

[James]

You guys always have a good relationship?

[Host]

No, we've had. It's gone up and down and I'll tell you, there was a. There was one particular series of years where it was pretty rough actually. It. I'll tell you why. I was going to tell you offline, but I'll tell you exactly what it was. I don't know if I've talked with him about it openly. I got shot in 2005. The reason that I actually came out to the west coast, my parents didn't come and visit me for like six months and that scrambled my eggs.

[James]

So is your mom.

[Host]

She's passed. She's passed in 2010, shortly I came, I got a Red Cross message to come home from Afghanistan in 2010. Had about 14 days with her before she passed. She was diagnosed with the cancer for the second time before I left. So I knew it was coming. It was more. A bit of how much time remains, not whether or not this is going to happen. 2005 though, they were both. They both were able to travel and I actually. And I. I can't fathom being on the receiving end of a phone call where you're told that your son has been injured overseas and he's going to work his way back over. And they were notified by my ex wife because I was able to call her from Balad, but they didn't come out to visit. And it fucked me up. It really strained our relationship and it got to a point about six months later I kind of exploded to him on the phone about it. Just like, what the fuck, man? Like my sister had come out and visit, my in laws had come out and visit and they hadn't. And it was rough. It had an impact on our relationship for sure.

[James]

Did they say why they didn't do that?

[Host]

He didn't think that he could be around me emotionally and be supportive because when he sees me, he sees the young man that he used to hold in his arms.

[James]

Oh, man.

[Host]

Rough for sure.

[James]

Did you reconcile with your mom about it?

[Host]

Yes, we talked about it afterwards. I think for her more than anything, she was just making the same decisions as my dad to be more supportive of my dad. Dad didn't make it any easier to be on the receiving end. We haven't talked about it directly much, him and I, but for about two years it was. It was just skin deep at best.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

The interactions back and Forth.

[James]

So just time healed that, and you guys.

[Host]

Eventually time healed it, and I think I put it down a little bit. You know, it's amazing. What happens is you get a little bit older.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah. So you knew that that was his reason for it then and you.

[Host]

I knew six months later that that.

[James]

Was his reason for six months to find that out.

[Host]

Well, they just. It was weird. I mean, I was fully trying to rehab myself. I had other people coming out to visit. It's not like the. You know, I had young children at the time, which were their grandkids, and he. Eventually, my mom actually called me and put him on the phone because my interactions with them had started to get a little bit more terse, like one word answers on the phone. I just. I wasn't reaching out to them. No. I was pissed. Right. And I'm not trying to justify my behavior. I'm just explaining where I was. And she just asked me straight out, and I. It just. It caught me in a moment where I was like, I'll tell you why. You want to know why I'm pissed? And here it is. And I just kind of. Kind of blew up on him a little bit.

[James]

So, I mean, I'm so glad that you guys are back in a good spot, you know?

[Host]

Oh, I can't wait to put him in a home.

[James]

So does he live with you?

[Host]

No.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

I'd blow my brains out if he lived with me. He lives with his. He lives with his wife.

[James]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Host]

Like a mile and a half from where we live. Absolutely out of his mind. Michael can attest. It's wonderful. He watches their dog sometimes. It's wonderful from a distance. Yeah, we're working it out.

[James]

That's good.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James]

What would you. So my relationship with my dad, we have no relationship. We don't talk at all.

[Host]

When did that start?

[James]

It started when I. Well, when it very first started was when I beat his ass about. I was about. I was. I was 21.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

And he was harassing my mom. My dad's had struggled with alcohol his whole life.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

So he's harassing my mom. I'm 21 years old, and one day I just say, you know what? This. This ain't happening anymore. And I go to his apartment, kick the door and beat his ass. Right. And leave him there. We didn't talk for five years after that. He didn't call anymore. There was no more harassing. But he would slowly work his way back in, and we would become friends again, and we'd Spend time again. And then this whole process would happen again. And I shut him out and say we're done. And then we would do it again and do it again. And here we are again at this spot. I haven't talked to him in two years. Basically the same thing happens where he'll come around, spend time with us, be around the kids. And I want him to have a relationship with his grandkids and, and so I give him this leeway and I open the door and we open our heart to it and then he it up.

[Host]

How does he it up?

[James]

Start drinking generally. Drinking. Yeah, drinking doesn't come around anymore and then might just leave. Leave. And so now we're two years out and I'm back to this spot of like, you know, I wonder if, I wonder how he's doing. I wonder if we could bring him back around. I wonder if we could make him part of our life again.

[Host]

So here's all I would say. Here would be my advice. Are you a perfect parent?

[James]

No.

[Host]

Do you mean to up when you do? Probably don't, right?

[James]

What's that?

[Host]

You're not trying to up like you don't mean to up when you do?

[James]

Not at all.

[Host]

I think a big first step is to when you're younger, you look at your parents and they're all, you know, they're literally your model of perfection. And you have to realize at some point in time that they're just people. People are a mess. So I would say if you can get to a place where you realize he's probably not intentionally doing that, that's a good start. If he were to pass today and you feel like you would have regrets where things left unset, I would say do something about that. But chemical and substance abuse is a different animal.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

I would put that back into his court. And I would say if you want to have a relationship with me and your grandkids, that's what I want too. But it comes with this criteria and you have to hold that line.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, but if you feel like you would have regret or things left unsaid or unfinished if he were to pass, I would say do your best to do something about it. But the emphasis and impetus is really on him to govern his behavior. It's your role now as a parent.

[James]

Parent.

[Host]

To hold that line, to create the line and hold the line. It's his role as your parent to live up to that so he can have a meaningful relationship in your life and your kids lives.

[James]

Yeah. That's good. Yeah, that's where we're at. That's kind of how I look at it, too.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

He's got a. I've been around substance abuse long enough to see it. I know how it works. And. And it does work like that.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

But am I going to expose my family to that?

[Host]

That's the metric of control. You have the metric of control he has as to whether or not his relationship with those substances means more than his family.

[James]

Unfortunately, sometimes it seems that way. Right.

[Host]

And if that is the case, as horrible as it says or it sounds, I'd cut him loose.

[James]

That's his choice.

[Host]

Correct.

[James]

Right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

Yeah, yeah. So that's a tough spot. Right.

[Host]

It's horrible.

[James]

And as a dad, just knowing the joys of being a dad, too. Right. For him to miss out on all of that stuff. I think about when I'm gonna be 65 or 70 years old.

[Host]

I mean, assuming you make it that far.

[James]

I didn't think I was gonna make it. Are you kidding me? There is nothing in my past history that says that's a guy that's trying to make it to 43 years old. I'll be 43 tomorrow, by the way.

[Host]

Happy birthday.

[James]

Thanks.

[Host]

Death due to old age is one day closer.

[James]

Yes. What's the analogy?

[Tom]

We just got something about life is like toilet paper.

[Host]

You never know when you're on your.

[James]

Last square, it just spins faster and.

[Tom]

God, that's our public.

[Host]

Yeah. Stay on top of the. There's a lot of consequences to the job that we did. Stay on top of the health metrics as much as you can.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The health is. You know, we. We took a lot of risks and put a lot of mileage on our bodies internally, too.

[Host]

Right.

[James]

And even up here. That's a lot of. A lot of. A lot of horsepower went into trying to figure all of this stuff out.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

But now, like, in my. At this point, I just. I keep thinking I want to try to reconcile, you know, how do I reconcile with all the people and all the things and all the places and how do I reconnect all of these things? You know, all. You know, all the many days and hours of neglecting our families and our relationships?

[Host]

You're not going to get the time back. I think the best thing you can do is take that feeling of wanting to reconcile and allow it to guide your behavior going forward.

[James]

It's like a walking. Walking amends.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

You just live that way.

[Host]

I don't know what else you can do with it, because you could sit there and wish and hope for the time back.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I'm just not aware of a way to get it.

[James]

Y.

[Host]

So, I mean, it is what it is.

[James]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

So, Jim, I'm really tired of you interrupting and talking so much in this particular episode.

[Tom]

Sorry, man.

[Host]

So we're skipping around a little bit because I know we'll get back to it. I'm curious, though. How did you two meet? Because I'll tie this back in together. We'll tie it back into you leaving the military, playing football, and then your desire to become an author. Weirdo. But you have a great pool of personal experience to pull from.

[James]

I didn't. Yeah. No, I wasn't issued my publicist. Publicist, though.

[Host]

They do that now. I believe in third phase. That's a joke. I go with.

[James]

At least we had to go find our own.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. How'd you guys meet?

[Tom]

I had a sports bar close to Northwestern. I had that for 12. About 12 years. We did a lot of work with the Northwestern athletic department. It was a big place in Evanston, Illinois, and I'd been writing books for years. I went to school or was originally for journalism, and I wrote my first novel in 99, and it actually. Part of it took place in Kalispell, Montana.

[Host]

Really?

[Tom]

And that.

[Host]

Had you visited before or had any time?

[Tom]

I came here in 98 to research the book, and the title of the book was the Flathead Saloon and Cat House, and it took place in Chicago.

[Host]

And cat as in meow cat?

[Tom]

Yeah, as in, oh, like, cougar cat.

[Host]

It's, like, weird. That's a really weird, like, yellow house cat. Like, why would that be the cat house?

[Tom]

As in gotcha. Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, all right. My brain is slow today. I'm not putting that together, but I think like, a yellow tabby cat. Like, what are we talking about here?

[James]

I thought you would know the place.

[Host]

I don't know if there's a whorehouse here in town. I'll check with my Elliot. I'll check with my law enforcement buddies later today. Like, hey, is there a whorehouse here called the Cat House?

[Tom]

So. And I had been. I'd owned seven or eight bars, clubs, restaurants in Chicago over the years and writing, you know, seven or eight books. And I was working on a book in 2015, a novel about a guy that wanted to play D1 football who was old, older, and then.

[Host]

And this is before you guys met?

[Tom]

Before we met.

[Host]

Okay. Yeah. Fortuitous circumstances. Right. Okay.

[Tom]

And so I developed a friendship with Pat Fitzgerald, who was the head coach at Northwestern. Great guy. We did a lot of stuff for the football team, and he had all the football events and recruiting events at my sports bar. So I didn't play college football. And I asked Pat if I could go to Kenosha training camp in 2015, in August, where the Northwestern football team went up there for about 10 days at university of Wisconsin, Kenosha. And he said, yeah, come on up. You can shadow me on the sideline. And super offer. And I went up there, was watching practice right next to him, and he said, you know, you should talk to Tom Ruby. And I had known who Tom Ruby was because Northwestern had a Navy seal, an active duty Navy SEAL playing football for him.

[Host]

And, well, let's also add slightly older age than your average college footballer.

[Tom]

33 years old.

[Host]

Yeah. And what's the average age of your teammate? 20.

[James]

Probably. 20.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

20, 21.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

They didn't have three kids either.

[Host]

Well, you don't know that for sure. That's an assumption. They could have started early.

[James]

Yeah, not at Northwestern.

[Host]

Let's hope they didn't have three kids. Let's start with that. That would be a lot. That's a full plate at 21 with three kids. Get some.

[Tom]

So Pat hooked me up with Tom, and, you know, the book I was working on. Eventually I went down to more time, had a place in Indiana, and I said, you know, the book I'm working on is interesting, but your life is way more interesting. And I asked him if he wanted to do a biography, and he did not want to do a book at that time.

[Host]

Talk a little closer to the mic, if you will.

[Tom]

He did not want to do a book at the time. In 2015 and 2016, he was going through things in his life, you know, marriage issues and sobriety. And so we stayed in touch. My wife passed away in 2019, and I moved to Cave Creek, Arizona. And, you know, a couple years ago, we met in Chicago for dinner, and he said, you're still interested in doing a book? And I said, absolutely, but I'd rather do a novel where the protagonist is based on your life. And he said, I'd rather do it that way. And we signed a contract, and we took a few months of research, and I went to his house in Crown Point, and we did hours of taped interviews. And then I go back to Arizona, and then I, you know, I ask him to give me, you know, 2,000 words on this and 3,000 words on that, and then I'd adapt it into the novel and send Tom chapters. And it was a Great partnership. It worked great. This sounds great. This. Doesn't this work on this?

[Host]

I'm sorry, no. So question for you about a novel. And I bet this depends on the author. So the completed book, the Breacher's Playbook, is sitting here in front of us. And I'm just. I asked this out of curiosity. When you're thinking about a novel, do you have an idea of the storyline, kind of an skeleton, and then you work backwards and fill it out, or do you let the story, as you're writing it, it take the twists and turns that you want it to?

[Tom]

That's a great question.

[Host]

Fascinated about the creative process itself.

[Tom]

Yeah, it's a great question. And the answer to it is both, as far as me as an author is concerned. You know, there's 12 authors, there might be 12 different ways they approach it.

[Host]

Well, the books are fascinating, especially. Especially to me. Suspenseful books where they throw these twists and turns at the end. I always ask myself, did they fucking know they were going to do that at the idea of this book or as they were writing it? Did they just recognize this is a great opportunity to do. Fill in the blank.

[Tom]

So I'll outline a book.

[Host]

Okay.

[Tom]

And have a general idea of where I want it to go. And I like to have a beginning and an end in the outline so I know what the ending's going to be. And then you start writing the book and you literally get to know the characters better, and they take you places that you didn't think you'd go. And people ask me all the time, well, how is that possible? You're writing it.

[Host]

Yeah, it.

[Tom]

It is. It. It'll take turns that you weren't thinking about, or you get to a certain point in the book and, you know, like, I'll write, you know, 2500 words, come back the next day and erase all of it. Or I'll come back the next day and read it and the hair on my arm stands up because I think it's good. So, yeah, I mean, this book.

[James]

The.

[Tom]

Ending changed completely about halfway through the book.

[Host]

Is this going to be one of many? One of three. You put three fingers up now. Maybe we'll put up another three. Maybe it's one of six. Let's not limit ourselves. I mean, Jesus, we've talked about not quitting and. And chunking things. Why would you stop at three?

[Tom]

I won't.

[James]

If nobody buys the book.

[Host]

I mean, there's that. Okay. Yeah, there is some for sure.

[James]

Reasonable.

[Host]

What'd you go to college for?

[James]

Social policy. Education. And social policy.

[Host]

So not journalism.

[James]

No.

[Host]

What were your thoughts on writing the book? Did you enjoy the process?

[James]

I enjoyed it a lot.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

Do Yankee enjoyed it though? Because it was based. So Jack Carr, a good friend of mine, his books, I think you guys have an advantage. And the advantage is you can do 98% realistic and then a little 2% of flair. And you can call it nonfiction. Yeah, I think writing. Or you can. I'm sorry, you can call it fiction.

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

Writing a non fiction book. God, I feel like there'd be a lot of pressure, especially if it's going to be anything other than a historic event that you can really, really research. And in the modern era too, where people might say, I'm like, oh well, that's not. You know what I mean? Or come at you. So you have creativity, which is awesome, but you can also balance it really well in realism, which Jack does a great job of. For people who know what they're looking at, reading those books like, damn, dude, did you have to include that detail? Like leave that shit out the reader though. The average reader doesn't know where the authenticity and the would be, the fiction aspect is rolled on top of it. I wonder how much you would have enjoyed it if it was a nonfiction book.

[James]

Yeah, well, it's a different lens. It would, it'd be a lot more anxiety in it for sure. Right. And be a whole lot of questions of what, what do you add? What do you not add? It would be more judgment. What can I add? What can I say? So it gives you a little bit more leeway for sure. But you also can take, you know, the nice thing about this is you can instead of it making it, you know, be the main character, you can take aspects of your life and other people's lives and just make them a separate character. Yeah, right. So you can still tell the same story and have that same lesson and have all of that in the book as part of the message, but it's just created into somebody else. Right. So you can pool all of these sources of knowledge and experiences and put them in one book and just have it just be eight different characters and they're all going through similar things and you're still telling the same story. So it's, it's a. I mean, it's just a unique gift to be able to do it that way.

[Host]

I haven't thought about it like that. I feel like that could be kind of cathartic to write maybe the antagonist character, but it's all based on your own character. Traits that you wish you could change. Like, I'm gonna create an asshole. Maybe nobody will realize it's me. What an interesting way to be.

[James]

Everything you write, though, is. Is a. Is a mirror of what you are to some degree. You're projecting that onto the paper always. So, you know, there's always that experience.

[Host]

How long did it take?

[James]

Which is very cathartic. Took us about a year.

[Host]

Okay, about a year.

[James]

I think once we really sat down and decided this is what we're doing and this is how we're going to go about it. It was about a year's time. But it's. You know, when you're working with two people, it's more challenging. A lot of. A lot of passing the manuscript. You know, they call them manuscripts, which is kind of cool. Back and forth. I had a lot of interviews. We did some travel and research.

[Tom]

Yeah, I had an interesting trip. It. The last part of this book, the main character, Declan, becomes an FBI agent. And I got in touch with the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia, and put in an application for me and Tom to get a tour there. Because if I'm going to write about a former SEAL that joins the FBI, you know, it's got to be legit, and normally they wouldn't do that. And because Tom was associated with that, they granted us this tour. And it turns out that there's a section of the FBI training academy at Quantico that's called Hogan's Alley.

[Host]

Oh, I know you're talking about.

[Tom]

Okay. And. And the guy that runs Hogan's Alley is a former seal.

[Host]

Oh, no kidding.

[Tom]

John Lauer.

[Host]

Don't know him or that name, but that doesn't surprise me, though, either.

[Tom]

Yeah, and he knew Tom, and he spent. You know, he. At first, when he heard that an author was going to come and go through this tour, he's like, I'll give him 20, 30 minutes, whatever. And Tom couldn't make the trip. And when I got there and told him what the project was, he spent like, six hours with me. And it was a fascinating look at, you know, this. They built a city there. Hogan's Alley has a movie theater, restaurants, post office houses.

[Host]

Unfortunately, probably every building in Hogan's Alley has a horrendous backstory. At some point in time, all rolled together. Hey, something happened at a theater. Maybe we should practice on this. Hey, something happened at a post office.

[Tom]

Theaters from Aurora.

[Host]

I know. That's what I was thinking, actually.

[James]

It's like an exact mockup.

[Host]

I mean, yeah, these lessons are written in Blood.

[Tom]

Unfortunately, the origin of Hogan's Alley comes from a. An FBI massacre where they lost agents in Miami. Yeah, like 19. I don't know, 70 something. But, you know, once. Once that trip was done and then we started work on the manuscript, you know, the whole process was about a year, and that's fast.

[Host]

Let me ask you this. So you've written how many books?

[Tom]

10.

[Host]

Have you ever, in the writing process, written a book and gotten it to a place where you would make no additional changes? Or at some point do you have to turn it in to an editor and say, please help me, because I've stared at this so much that I'm losing my mind.

[Tom]

You have to turn it in because.

[Host]

There'S no perfect book. Right.

[Tom]

You know, I could keep going over it and over it and. And, you know, you find mistakes, and then you find, oh, no, I want to change this. No, I feel like if you look.

[Host]

At it enough, you would make changes so many times that it would actually revert back to the original that you started changing it from.

[Tom]

I actually get to a point where I can't look at it anymore. I mean.

[Host]

Okay.

[Tom]

You know, it's good.

[James]

What do you think? In. In comparison to the other books, with this one where we. When we finished the original, it was 568 pages long.

[Host]

How many words?

[Tom]

Well, when we finished it, it was about 140,000 words.

[Host]

Okay. Is that average for a fiction novel? Okay.

[Tom]

But that's a little long for a first novel.

[Host]

Okay.

[Tom]

And I had some people advise me in this genre to shorten it, which you don't want to do, because everything.

[Host]

That's your baby.

[Tom]

Great.

[Host]

You know, unless you shorten it into book two, then you've already got your second book done.

[Tom]

Yeah, but I got it down to about 108,000 words.

[Host]

Okay.

[Tom]

And.

[James]

And.

[Tom]

And that's where it was published. And it's a better book at 108,000 words right now. And. And the stuff that. One of the chapters I cut out is going to be the first chapter in book two.

[Host]

I mean, there's two ways to view that. It's horrible. Or I've already got some work that I needed to do. Done. Yeah. So 10 books, man. Do you have a favorite out of those 10?

[Tom]

Not counting this, of course.

[Host]

Yeah. It's kind of a up question, especially since Tom's in the room. Oh, yeah. I really love this other book, and it's not this one.

[James]

I really up on my last.

[Tom]

My favorite is. Is a novel I wrote called Ghost Bandit. Yeah. And that's a great book. I'm. I'm surprised that hasn't found a screenplay deal yet.

[Host]

What's the fastest a novel has ever come out of you?

[Tom]

Well, this one is. It's always taken me longer, but I've had other things going on too, as I was, you know, my wife and I had four kids. Yeah, I had nightclubs and I was in the bar business.

[Host]

You're busy, man.

[Tom]

You know, and writing was what I loved. People go, oh, the bar business is in your blood. No, it's not. It never was. And I've been out of it for six years, and I don't miss it a bit. But, you know, I've written six novels, two biographies and two satirical books about one on men and golf and the other is about the restaurant business. I did a biography of a world champion steer wrestler from Bastrop, Texas. That was a blast to write.

[James]

And didn't. Didn't you research that, too?

[Tom]

Oh, yeah, I. Well, one. My second novel was a book that took place within the prca, and that was about a professional bull rider. And to research that, I went to a bull riding school of Gary Laphew, who is a former world champion bull rider, and he runs a camp, a bull riding school in Santa Maria, California. And I learned how to ride a bull at 46 years old.

[Host]

I mean, that's the time where you're known to be the most flexible anyway and, you know, you have the most durability. So, I mean, why not? Long time don't. Yeah, don't get into it for a few more years.

[James]

Well, I've already decided I'm not bull riding.

[Host]

I don't know where to. Talk about balls. Getting humiliable riders, do they strap them into a backpack?

[Tom]

I mean, Mike, when. When I went there and there were collegiate bull riders who were becoming. Going on the pro circuit who looked at Gary as a guru. And there were guys on the PRCA circuit that were in slumps that would go to Gary for tutoring. And then here's me. I, you know, I'd been on a horse 10 times in my life, maybe.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Tom]

So he's putting me on these simulators and, and there's classroom stuff in, and then there's work on mechanical bulls. And then, you know, your first day on a real bull, you know, I just wanted to go home. And, you know, he puts me in the chute. I get on a bull, he's pulling a rope tight, you know, and I'm going, it's too tight. He goes, no, it's not too tight. I go, it's too tight. And he leans under my hat and he goes, what the fuck do you know about too tight? He goes, are you gonna be a man or a mouse? Just tell us that right now. And you're like, fuck it.

[Host]

Is there another option?

[James]

It's gonna be somewhere in between.

[Tom]

You know, they. They finish the wrap, and then they, you know, just nod when you're ready to go. And I don't even think I nodded. I think they just pulled the gate, and it was, you know, it's like taking a meat hook and grabbing a freight train as it goes by.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Tom]

I mean, you have zero control over anything that animal does.

[Host]

Those bulls, if you've never walked up next to one, are some of the most impressive animals. Yes. The TV does it no justice because there's no relative size or scale. Holy.

[Tom]

It's like 1800 pounds of muscle.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

All muscle that doesn't want you on its back.

[James]

How do you even decide that that's something that we were going to do as humans? Like, let's ride that.

[Host]

You know the answer to that. There's more people like you and I out there than there are.

[James]

See that thing over there?

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

Let's ride. Let's see if we can ride it.

[Tom]

Yeah, but it was fun. I mean, it, you know, doing that. Then I went on the road with Gary and his son and. And went to probably 12 different rodeos and worked the shoots with them and then wrote a book. And it was. I loved every minute of it. I loved working with Tom on this book.

[James]

Me, too.

[Tom]

And it was.

[Host]

Well, give me the wave tops of the book. Describe it for the listener so they know what they're going to be getting into to.

[Tom]

Well, Declan. It, you know, kind of follows Tom's life. It. It begins, you know, when he's out of high school. That's the. You know, and. And the book doesn't go chronologically, so the first chapter. He's at his first Northwestern training camp.

[James]

Yeah. And this is James's writing genius.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

He. He. He twists the timeline up so we go back and forth. It's like a Pulp Fiction storyline.

[Host]

Those are the best stories. To me, anyway. I enjoy, you know, movies that start with a brief glimpse into something that you're catch up with in, like, the third act. That's it.

[James]

Right. So he develops all these storylines. Right. When I first looked at it, we talked about it, I was like, there's no way we're going to make this work.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

Right. It seemed way Too complicated for my little brain. But I'm learning. James knows what he's doing and these are things that actually can happen. Yeah. So.

[Tom]

So, you know, the book begins with Declan at this training camp and, and his, you know, 19 and 20 year old Five Star teammates have never met him before. And then he walks in and. And then it goes back and forth chronologically to Tom going to the MMA gym and Declan going to the MMA gym and going through his first fight and the emotions of that first fight and then back to Navy boot camp going through that. You know, the, you know, Declan has, you know, is a cocky, tough kid. When he goes into the Navy and Navy boot camp camp, three, four days into Navy boot camp, he's like, this is the biggest mistake I ever made in my life. I gotta get out of here.

[Host]

Very common sentiment, I believe.

[James]

And I was begging, can you just send me home?

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, you follow and hopefully the reader gets hooked from chapter one. That's. As a novelist, that's the goal. You know, you just. I don't want to put this book down. I want to find out what happens.

[Host]

To him as a writer. So not to interrupt him. Fascinating. You made that comment. Because I'm curious, how many pages do you think you have as an author to catch somebody? A dozen maybe? It's interesting, right? There's got to be something really compelling because I'm thinking about my own consumption. I read more nonfiction than fiction. Yeah. It's gonna have to be quick.

[James]

Yeah. It's got to be good.

[Host]

Quick. Yeah.

[Tom]

And even if you, you know, if you're not hooked in the beginning and you tough it out and you go, you still have that in your head that you weren't hooked.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Tom]

You know, and that affects the way you, you read a novel. And you know, as you go through this, you see the, this character is accomplishing things that most guys dream about, you know, going through buds. Most, most people, there's no way I could make it through one day. And they're probably right.

[Host]

Not with that attitude.

[Tom]

Yeah. But you look at, you're reading, just.

[James]

Just fake like you died. You will be fine.

[Host]

Yeah. That works on zero evolutions and buds.

[James]

Yeah. That's the only one that I, that I could even think of might work.

[Host]

You could probably like fake death on the oak horse, but they're just gonna leave you out there as a reader.

[Tom]

You want the reader to feel that.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Tom]

You know, that it's. That this guy's conquering things that very few can conquer. And then you're seeing him, you know, as you go back and forth on the chapters, you're seeing glimpses of football and buds and, and deployments and you know, you're getting this image of this protagonist as somebody superhuman almost. And then, then you find his frailties and then you find what, what weakens him and why he's. He doubts himself. How can you doubt yourself after you've accomplished all of these things? And it's very real in everyone and hopefully it resonates. And then there's the backstory of Declan gets very close to his defensive coordinator on his football team who's his. The same age. They're both, both like 33. And Declan's D coordinator is recently divorced and his six year old daughter is. Moves with the mother back to Colorado or Steamboat Springs, Colorado and is in a very abusive relationship with the ex wife and her boyfriend. And the story follows Declan's coach and Declan go to visit the child or the mother and the child and things become clear that Declan's not done making life and death decisions if he wants to help this guy out. And that's how he, you know, proceeds after the teams where he thought he was done with that.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And, and his skills come into play and, and they're able to get this girl out of a bad situation. But the things that happen in before that and after that dictate his life quite a bit where he ends up.

[Host]

How far into the second book are you guys?

[James]

Everything that we cut out of the.

[Host]

First book is a great start.

[James]

Which fortunately is about 200 pages worth of stuff.

[Host]

Oh, damn. Okay.

[James]

That's nice.

[Host]

Yeah, it is nice. As far as that framework goes. You can add some muscle and ligaments to that stuff for sure.

[James]

That's right. Yep. A couple explosions and we should be good. I think we. Six months, you know.

[Tom]

Yeah. But there's a very good storyline with the second book that I can't wait to outline and start on, but I can't. We can't tell anyone.

[Host]

Yeah. Don't give it away. What is. So if you're gonna do a three book series to start with, I think we've agreed it'll be six. But what is the publishing goal with that? Is it every 12 months to keep the reader who may find this and it's. It's one of fill in the blank and they know that something is coming. Do you lose the reader if it's 18 months or two years apart or what. What do you usually aim for?

[James]

What do you think, James?

[Tom]

I think the first book Is gonna dictate the schedule of books two and three.

[Host]

And optimally, what would it be? Every 12 months? Ish. Yeah. Okay.

[Tom]

Yeah. I mean if you look at Carr's career, that's optimum.

[James]

Is that what he's doing? 12 months?

[Host]

I think so. And I think he's now doing backstories to the. Dammit. Michael. What's his character's name? It's Reese. James Reese. James Reese.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I think. Think now he's telling the origin story, I believe, of Reese's father. So he not only is he writing that every year? Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't.

[James]

I, I know it turns for him.

[Host]

I think it's very.

[James]

Turns into a real job at some point.

[Host]

Well, I think that's what he wanted his job to be post military. So he's living his.

[James]

He's living his dream.

[Host]

Dream. That doesn't sound like a dream to me. I'd rather go test gravity.

[James]

But you should write about it.

[Host]

Testing gravity.

[James]

Gotta be some great lessons to be taught.

[Host]

There's a. Well, the main lesson is it's undefeated. So you know, know deploy your parachute before impact. But that's lesson one. There are some lessons there.

[James]

Keep it simple.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, he. He is cranking them out.

[James]

Yes.

[Host]

But it's every 12 for him. It is every year. He.

[James]

And I think 12 months is his schedule.

[Host]

I think that might be how he's entering into the contracts with his publisher though, because they wanted it to be what it is. So I think he is actually a little bit more. And I, I think it's safe to say I'm not giving it away any information. I know he, he has mentioned the term deadlines to me. So I think he is a little governed by his publishing relationship. But he also seems to be enjoying it. So. Good for him.

[James]

Yeah, I think we would do whatever a publisher thought was necessary. Could we do 12 months a book? Yes, I think so.

[Host]

He got ahead of that though. And I think kind of like you guys would have the ability to do.

[James]

Yeah, he.

[Host]

I think he had. And I'm speaking for him a little bit. I think he had an idea of the story arc that probably was going to get him through his first publishing contract. So he was able to work his way backwards from there, which would probably be easier to flesh out that way as opposed to getting one done like. Okay. And does anybody have any ideas for book number two? No. He's killing it, man.

[James]

He is killing it. And his stuff's great.

[Host]

So I'm assuming you're Just going to keep writing?

[Tom]

Correct.

[Host]

What are you going to do? You're out of college now, kids. You're an author. Are you gonna, you're gonna dive into writing or what else do you think you want to do?

[James]

I don't know.

[Host]

It's a good answer. That's what I say with my life too.

[James]

I really don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna do when I grow up. I probably won't grow up, so I don't, I don't know if I'll ever know.

[Tom]

Okay.

[James]

You know, I, I.

[Host]

What are you doing professionally outside of lighting now?

[James]

I started a school.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

So I think I'll continue to grow this. It's a micro school. It's a nature based, learner driven micro school. So essentially we spend all day out outdoors as much as possible.

[Host]

I like it.

[James]

So I think we're going to grow that. This is. We're in our second school year and we just opened enrollment. We're looking at opening almost double. So we had about 30 kids this year.

[Host]

Awesome.

[James]

So we're considering doubling that for next year if we can, if we can get the families.

[Host]

And this is obviously geographically located where you live.

[James]

It's in Crown Point. Yeah, it's on some property that I have in Crown Point, Indiana.

[Host]

What's the name of the school? If you want to give it. So people can research if they live there.

[Tom]

Take a look.

[James]

Wonder Academy nwi Wonder Academy Northwest Indiana.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

Their social media presence is real. Good. Good.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

There's a website too, but please do check that out. I mean, it's just so cool, right? These kids yesterday, they, they. Yeah, that's it. Yes, that's it.

[Host]

Accept those cookies, Michael.

[James]

Accept them. Yeah, that's. This is it. So that's the ranch. That's the Ruby Ranch there. That's a little property that I bought when I was getting out back in 2014 and we just started turning it into a homestead. I was gonna live there, but I got divorced and didn't work out that way. I did live in the barn though, for a while.

[Host]

That's probably fun actually.

[James]

It actually was really fun.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[James]

I, I regret ever leaving there now.

[Host]

Keeps going.

[James]

These are the girls here.

[Host]

Nice.

[James]

They're the founders. Three girl founders. They, they came, they were looking for a place to do a school and, and I will.

[Host]

Some feedback on your website.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Will you use a higher resolution photo, please?

[James]

I don't, I don't do websites, man. But I, I will give enough feedback. See the difference between the two yeah, no kidding. Let's see, let's see. Hold on here.

[Host]

Keep.

[James]

Keep going. I think. I don't. I don't think I'm on this page, but yes, I don't wonder. I'm just worried about my resolution now.

[Host]

Just let it haunt you so we don't need to look at it. I want you just to wonder for the rest of the day.

[James]

I don't get haunted all that much anymore. But these. So like, yesterday they.

[Host]

I love these concepts, though.

[James]

Yesterday they, they made sourdough bread in. And a Dutch oven over the, over the fire.

[Host]

Nice.

[James]

That was the, that was the lesson for the day. And then they broke bread and they ended their day.

[Host]

I love the concepts.

[James]

And if you see on the social, they show some videos of, you know, these experiences. Yeah, these kids just love, absolutely love their day. They love school, they love being there. It's. It feels like a different experience of education than what we probably got inside of a cubicle classroom, likely, because it.

[Host]

Is a different experience.

[James]

And it shows. And it shows in, in the way these kids behave. It shows in, in their, in their enjoyment. So that's what we're working on now. That's something I'm doing now. I, I have. I do some Airbnb.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

Have a few properties that we. Airbnb. I'd like to. I'm trying to figure out how. We have four veteran families, kids that go to our school that are veterans, and this is all private funded, so we don't get any money from tax dollars. So it's $7,000 a student. So I'm really working on developing a scholarship for veteran families to put their kids in the school. That's one thing I'm working on. I have a little 501C3, the Frogman Foundation. You know, we don't do very much yet, but I'd love to incorporate programs for transitioning veterans and their families and giving them a few opportunities to learn some, you know, coping mechanisms and ways of dealing with ptsd, et cetera, you know, those kind of sort of things. Like, you know, when I, when I got out and I got divorced, my life pretty much went to total. An absolute. It was the hardest, worst experience of my life. Harder than buds and anything else.

[Host]

I say the exact same thing.

[James]

Oh, my God. I even just thinking about it now, it gives me a little bit of, you know, I mean, I've.

[Host]

It was the, the most accurate depth and sounding of who I was as a person that I've ever experienced.

[James]

I mean, somehow I am on the Other side. I don't know how, but I did not think I was going to survive that I thought was gonna die as well.

[Host]

So I was inside out.

[James]

I was burned learning.

[Host]

I went right back into the. The chunking or the time philosophy.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

I remember being on Zoom Calls right.

[James]

Back to the old ways, dude.

[Host]

I don't know how else I would have gotten through it. I mean, there were days where I just like, how is this possible? How am I possible? Whether it's in the discovery process and they're asking for three terabytes worth and like, how am I even gonna get all of this? Where do I do this? How do. Just so easy to get overwhelmed and I just chunked it, man.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Thing.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

What. What are you learning right now? Do you have anything that you're pursuing that's pushing you as a person?

[James]

God, God, God, God. I mean, I.

[Host]

Because you talked about everything you're doing for others. The school, the Airbnbs, which is economical.

[James]

Right.

[Host]

I'm just. I'm curious because I've realized in myself, I do way better when I have something that I'm trying to master that is not masterable or something new that I'm trying to learn. I think it keeps you young in air quotes.

[James]

The first thing that jumps to my mind, I'm trying to figure out this idea of how can I have the most impact but do the least amount of work? The most impact, but the least amount. Yes. And apply. Yes. Isn't it? That's the master key, right?

[Host]

Yes.

[James]

Right, Right. And how can I, you know, where can I influence in whatever avenue that I decide to go in, But I have to maintain my own, you know, personal energy.

[Host]

Right.

[James]

So I can only put so much in, but I still want to get the most out of it, and I want it to be beneficial for everyone. So.

[Host]

May not be able to have the most impact most, but relatively, like, what's the most I can impact? Yeah, you could say, what is the most impact I could have while maintaining that sphere that you're unwrap. Unwilling.

[James]

So I. I mean, I. I have a hundred hobbies, things that I love to do.

[Host]

Which one challenges you the most?

[James]

Well, I love to snowboard.

[Host]

Right.

[James]

And I love mountain climbing.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

So those two are probably my favorite. The hardest part about it is just finding time to go do it. So that's part of the challenge. Right. And so I'm looking at my entire life, like, how can I still be present with my family and my kids, but still go and do these things that require Me to get in an airplane, fly, spend three days up in the mountains and then come back and. But you got to do those things too. So, you know, figuring out how do I balance all of these things, I mean, that's really the, the, the, the task. Now can I enjoy, can I have businesses, can I, you know, write books with guys? And that's what I mean. I had to partner with somebody to be able to do these smarts. I mean, there's just no way around it.

[Host]

Yes.

[James]

I'm not going to sit down and write the book and edit it and, and send it to friends and re edit it and, you know, just not going to happen all by myself. So if we're going to do this, I need somebody that is brilliant, that's motivated, that's an awesome, great guy that we have a great relationship with and he wants to do it and loves to do it. And he's, you know, this is his, this is his talent. How do we, you know, how do we work together to do this? So that's kind of, you know, if you, you know, whatever it is that I'm trying to kind of work towards, it's like putting together great teams. Like these three girls. Right. They are, they're the genius in this whole school process. I'm kind of like a, I don't know, like a facilitator. Caretaker land, you know. Right. And so giving and finding ways to make it happen. So that's, you know, that's what that looks like. And I get bored easy. So, so, you know, we get stuff done and we make it happen.

[Host]

Because you're still looking for problems and.

[James]

Then I'm looking for something else. Right. Or it's looking for me.

[Host]

Yeah. I don't mean problems in a bad way. It's right.

[James]

It's right.

[Host]

It's the h. Habitual nature of our mind, given our old career. You get the idle time. I, I hate the idea of being bored because there's always a problem out there that I could solve. And the more complex the problem oftentimes the more interested I am in the actual problem. But I just can't turn my brain off from looking for them.

[James]

I don't think you're ever going to.

[Host]

No, no, I've accepted the fact.

[James]

Exactly.

[Host]

I try to manage my time appropriately.

[James]

Around that's how I have to do it too.

[Host]

Because there are more problems than my calendar will allow for.

[James]

That's right.

[Host]

And it's a slippery slope because sometimes I'll try to stick them all on the calendar and Nothing good comes from that other than exhaustion. And usually I get sick.

[James]

I know. That's what my calendar suddenly looks like now too. Yeah, it's gotten out of control.

[Host]

Start with blocking off time you're unwilling to deviate from.

[James]

Right.

[Host]

And then you're just left with the stuff that you can play with. That's helped me substantially.

[James]

Right.

[Host]

Like this for up here. Hunting season is a good example. You get 60 days to get it done and fill your freezer. I'm pretty sensitive of my time around that. Making sure I have time for my kids, make sure I have time for my wife, my own personal training. Because otherwise you're on the road so much. Like, ah, I didn't get to train for a week. I'll do twice as much this next week. Yeah, I'm 47. That doesn't work so well. What the hell, dude?

[James]

Why did we have to start getting like that? There was a time when where I could just go, I. I mean, I could probably train four or six hours a day.

[Host]

Yeah. And feel like you were still a lazy piece of. Yeah, those days are gone.

[James]

Still look in the mirror and go, come on, Tom. Yeah, you know, I know. Those days are so long gone.

[Host]

It's about optimizing now.

[James]

It's yes.

[Host]

Yeah. Who'd you guys publish with Tactical 16?

[Tom]

It's a veteran owned publishing company, Colorado Springs.

[Host]

I can't say that I've ever heard of them. It sounds cool.

[James]

Schaefer is the. Is the owner and I think he was a Green Beret. Is that right? Am I right?

[Tom]

Ranger.

[James]

Ranger. Okay.

[Tom]

T16books.com.

[Host]

Yeah, I know. We'll put the link to it in the show notes too. Is that the only place you can get it? Is this thing on Amazon?

[Tom]

Amazon.

[Host]

Is there an audiobook?

[Tom]

It's coming. It's not out yet.

[Host]

The book, just who's reading it?

[Tom]

Oh, I don't know.

[James]

Petitioning?

[Host]

No, the only person I think should ever read audiobooks is James Earl Jones.

[Tom]

Now.

[Host]

I know.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

Somebody threw this one out though. Morgan Freeman is a good second.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, those would be good.

[Host]

I have no ability to help you with that, but I think it would be amazing.

[James]

You can't get us in contact?

[Host]

No, no, no. But it'd be awesome if I could.

[James]

That would be real awesome.

[Host]

So there will be an audiobook.

[James]

Look, there will.

[Host]

Okay. How long has this thing been out?

[Tom]

January 20th was the pre sale.

[Host]

So March 1st today. So if that's the pre sale, when is the official launch?

[Tom]

Well, it was February 7th.

[James]

February 7th.

[Host]

Okay.

[James]

Our first event, and it's on sale now.

[Host]

Awesome.

[James]

Pre sales.

[Tom]

We got a super turnout in Chicago for our opening book signing.

[Host]

Well, here's the deal. There's no way we could ever cover everything in one episode. So how about we just agree to this? Every time you guys come out with another one, we just circle the wagons and have another conversation, because we've actually been at it for almost two and a half hours.

[James]

Yeah. Deal. Yeah, deal. I feel like we can go a lot longer, too.

[Host]

We could probably do five hours. And the problem is that's too long of an episode for anybody. We're better off doing it in iterations because we just scratched the surface. Yeah, let's do that on a variety of things. Things. But before we close it up, closing thoughts from. From both you guys. What do you want to leave people with?

[Tom]

Well, I want to thank you for having us out.

[Host]

Of course. Open invite in the future, anytime you guys want to come out.

[Tom]

Thanks, Andy. We love it out here. And, you know, on our wish list, your pod was. Was high. Top of the list. Closing thoughts. This book grabs you from the. From the beginning, and I think it dispels, you know, what. What people normally think about Team Guys, and it shows a definition, depth of Declan's character that is fun to read. And working with Tom was an honor. It was really an honor. When I met him 10 years ago. I wanted to write a book with him the day I met him, and it came true. Took a little while, but it's been an honor, and I hope this continues.

[James]

Cool, man. Thanks, James. That's awesome. Well, our friendship has really grown a lot, and I. I do appreciate that. I appreciate our relationship. Thanks, man. Yeah, it's been good. It's been great. I mean, we. We became friends in two of our hardest times of our lives. I was getting divorced, and he lost his wife, and we stayed.

[Host]

We stayed as bad as it's gonna get, I think. Yeah.

[James]

Rough, rough times.

[Host]

Yeah.

[James]

So I. I really love that. That that's part of the story, too.

[Tom]

Well, I'm going to interrupt real quick and just. I had not known Tom very long at all, and when my wife got real sick, he came to visit her in the hospital, and he came to Mary's funeral, and I had friends I've known for 50 years that didn't show up.

[Host]

You might want to pick a different term for those people.

[Tom]

I already have.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Tom]

But it was just shame. I just wanted to throw that in there. That, and I'll never forget that you.

[Host]

Figure out who your Friends are when it's raining and they're standing out there with you, even if they have an opportunity to be under a shelter.

[James]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, come on, look at this guy. What's not to love?

[Host]

I mean, I'm gonna get one of those hats immediately.

[James]

I, I, I love the most interesting people that there are.

[Host]

And, of course, it's the spice of life.

[James]

Dude, it is so great. There's no way I was gonna let this guy out of it. Yeah. Love it, man. Yeah, the book's really cool, and it does. It tells a cool story, but it just talks about, you know, it's just a. Everybody's so much more than they think they are. And people are gonna try to tell you all the time who you are, what you are, what you can do, where your limits are. And the only way you'll ever know the difference, because that's the natural state of the psyche. The only way you'll know the difference is if you just start one thing at a time, stepping outside of that challenge. Something. Go for it. But you got to do it. You just got to take the step and just go, go, go. You'll figure it out. The path will be laid out in front of you as you go.

[Host]

It's a tough concept to grasp. People want the path before they start.

[James]

You just got to take the step.

[Host]

Yeah, I agree.

[James]

You're not going to see the next step. You just take it. You just take it. Be confident. Trust yourself. You know, believe in yourself.

[Host]

It'll be all right in a long enough timeline. There are moments where you think it's not going to be all right. Right?

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Host]

But you got. You. You got to. Again, I'm telling you, man, Time.

[James]

Yeah.

[Host]

It was the number one tool I had as an instructor. How could I get you to think about time?

[James]

That's all I did.

[Host]

God, you could get people to quit.

[James]

So you're. You're really saying that you guys would then intentionally put your arm in front of our face so we could see the face of the watch.

[Host]

Some play checkers, some play chess.

[James]

I really thought that I was getting one over on you guys.

[Host]

Guys, do you forget that we were students, too?

[James]

You got to.

[Host]

Where do you think we learn these tricks from yourselves?

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Tom]

That's funny.

[Host]

Nothing accidental happens there.

[James]

That is funny. I really thought that I had a great thing going.

[Host]

We know.

[James]

It actually did work, though. It still does work, even though I. It wasn't inaccurate.

[Host]

We know you thought you had something going. It's okay, because that trick wasn't for you. It was for the other people who on Tuesday read our watch and said, oh, it's Monday evening.

[Tom]

Oh my God.

[James]

How. Oh, you didn't do first phase. Who was the. Who's the instructor that got that. That got caught for. Was in trouble for abusing prisoners in Abu Gharib. Do you remember?

[Host]

No.

[James]

Him?

[Host]

No.

[James]

Okay.

[Host]

I figured that would have happened long before he got there.

[James]

Memorable instructor from first phase.

[Host]

I didn't know. I don't. Maybe. I mean it's totally possible.

[James]

And then instructor Kraft was my second phase.

[Host]

Yep.

[James]

You were two.

[Host]

Yep.

[James]

And. And Ledford, you ever talked? Do you stay in contact at all?

[Host]

No, and not intentionally. And I also think that's just kind of. I mean I geographically moved. I occupationally not separated, but diversified myself from that. And guys just communicate differently than girls. I could reconnect with any of those people in five minutes and we'd be back up and running. We really could. There is a difference in communication. And then just the way that men and women manage relationships. I watch my wife have multi hour conversations with her sister and her aunt and her mom and I would. I would blow my brains out. You know, Average guy conversation. Hey, what's up? Anything new? Okay, later.

[James]

Done.

[Host]

Talk to you in a decade. And the person be like, okay, cool. Yeah, we're fine. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just different.

[James]

We love each other.

[Host]

Yeah. All right, gents.

[James]

Yeah, that was great. Thanks.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, thanks. We'll do it again for sure. Cool.

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