Episode 396 - James Hatch - Navy Seal, Author, Yale Graduate and Lecturer

Summary

Podcast Title: Cleared Hot
Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: James Hatch - Navy SEAL, Author, Yale Graduate, and Lecturer
Episode: 396
Release Date: July 21, 2025

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Introduction to James Hatch’s Journey

In Episode 396 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf welcomes James Hatch, a decorated Navy SEAL with a multifaceted background as an author, Yale graduate, and lecturer. James shares his extensive military experience, including flying jets, skydiving, mountain climbing, and owning a gym. The episode delves deep into his personal and professional journey, exploring the challenges he faced both on and off the battlefield.

Military Operations and Personal Injuries

The conversation kicks off with James recounting a critical parachute jump incident that drastically changed his life.

• [05:00] James Hatch: "I was unconscious for a week. Broke L1 through 5."

Andy probes into the specifics of the accident, revealing the complexity and danger of Navy parachute operations. James describes how senior teammate Timmy’s quick actions saved his life during the mishap.

• [07:12] James Hatch: "Timmy was the most senior and talented guy. He put his feet in right over my right... and then he slowly feeds... and when the break off's at 500, something went wrong."

The severity of James’s injuries is emphasized, outlining his temporary paralysis and significant brain damage. His time in the hospital is depicted as a transformative period where he relearned basic tasks, highlighting the profound impact of his injuries.

Mental Health Struggles and Rehabilitation

Post-accident, James opens up about his battles with anger, substance abuse, and depression, symptoms often associated with traumatic brain injuries (TBI).

• [15:02] James Hatch: "I felt out of control. My rage was getting worse."

Andy and James discuss the stigma around seeking help within the military culture, where vulnerability is often seen as weakness. James shares his reluctant journey through antidepressants and his eventual reliance on rehabilitation programs to regain his mental stability.

Cultural Reflections and Academic Pursuits

Transitioning from his military career, James recounts his academic pursuits at Yale. He emphasizes the importance of bridge-building between military veterans and academia to foster understanding and support.

• [116:00] James Hatch: "I see that the system needs veterans in academia because of our personal experiences."

James details his role as a lecturer, teaching courses like "The Impact of War on Its Willing and Unwilling Participants." He highlights how sharing his firsthand experiences with students enriches their understanding of war's multifaceted impacts.

• [124:34] James Hatch: "Talking about war from all angles can impact young minds who are future decision-makers."

Reflections on War and Its Aftermath

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the long-term effects of prolonged military engagements, specifically referencing Operation Red Wings and the broader War on Terror.

• [132:42] James Hatch: "We spent 20 years at war, but we didn’t learn much from it."

James expresses skepticism about the efficacy of extended military campaigns, critiquing the lack of comprehensive after-action reviews that could have informed better strategies.

• [137:32] Andy Stumpf: "After 20 years, what was the point?"

He underscores the psychological toll on service members and the enduring impact on their personal lives, relationships, and mental health.

Advocacy and Future Aspirations

James passionately advocates for better mental health support for veterans and emphasizes the importance of integrating their experiences into academic and policy-making spheres. He discusses his involvement with nonprofits like Spikes Canine, which supports working dogs and their handlers.

• [166:04] James Hatch: "Veterans deserve to have their stories heard and to support each other in meaningful ways."

Looking forward, James aspires to continue his academic work, expand his nonprofit efforts, and maintain strong connections with his military comrades. He underscores the importance of education in healing and personal growth, both for himself and for those he teaches.

Conclusion: Lessons Learned and Moving Forward

The episode wraps up with reflections on leadership, the enduring bonds formed in the military, and the importance of honest dialogue in overcoming trauma. James and Andy discuss the legacy of military service and the critical need for continued support systems to help veterans transition to civilian life successfully.

• [170:53] Andy Stumpf: "Life isn't binary. It's an uphill battle mentally."
• [171:03] James Hatch: "We need to create environments where veterans can share and heal without judgment."

James emphasizes that while the military shaped his resilience and leadership, it also left him grappling with deep-seated challenges that he continues to address through education and advocacy.

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Notable Quotes

• James Hatch [05:00]:
  "I was unconscious for a week. Broke L1 through 5."

• James Hatch [07:12]:
  "Timmy was the most senior and talented guy. He put his feet in right over my right... and then he slowly feeds... and when the break off's at 500, something went wrong."

• James Hatch [15:02]:
  "I felt out of control. My rage was getting worse."

• James Hatch [116:00]:
  "I see that the system needs veterans in academia because of our personal experiences."

• James Hatch [124:34]:
  "Talking about war from all angles can impact young minds who are future decision-makers."

• James Hatch [132:42]:
  "We spent 20 years at war, but we didn’t learn much from it."

• Andy Stumpf [137:32]:
  "After 20 years, what was the point?"

• James Hatch [166:04]:
  "Veterans deserve to have their stories heard and to support each other in meaningful ways."

• Andy Stumpf [170:53]:
  "Life isn't binary. It's an uphill battle mentally."

• James Hatch [171:03]:
  "We need to create environments where veterans can share and heal without judgment."

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Key Takeaways

1. The Harsh Realities of Military Life: James discusses the physical and psychological toll of being a Navy SEAL, highlighting the extreme risks and the long-term impact of injuries sustained in duty.

2. Mental Health Stigma: The episode sheds light on the challenges veterans face in seeking mental health support, emphasizing the need for a cultural shift within military communities.

3. Bridging Military and Civilian Spheres: James’s role at Yale serves as a bridge between the military and academic worlds, fostering mutual understanding and providing valuable insights into the complexities of war and its aftermath.

4. Advocacy for Veterans: Through his nonprofit work and academic endeavors, James advocates for better support systems for veterans, particularly focusing on mental health and reintegration into civilian life.

5. Critique of Prolonged Military Engagements: Both Andy and James express skepticism about the efficacy and strategy behind prolonged military operations, calling for more effective after-action reviews and strategic planning.

6. Importance of Honest Dialogue: The episode underscores the necessity of open and honest conversations about the realities of war, both within military circles and in broader academic and public discussions.

7. Personal Growth and Resilience: Despite the immense challenges, James highlights his journey of recovery and personal growth, demonstrating resilience and the potential for positive transformation through education and support.

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Note: The timestamps provided correspond to the significant points in the transcript, ensuring accurate reference to the discussions and quotes mentioned.

Transcript

[Jimmy]

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[Andy]

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[Jimmy]

That's why we've got millions of ad free podcast episodes, so you can stay completely immersed in every story, every reveal, every breath. Download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite podcasts. Ad free included with Prime. Okay, got the red smoke. Sun run north or south? West of the smoke, west of the smoke. Okay, copy west of the smoke.

[Andy]

I'm looking at danger close now. Come on with it, baby.

[Jimmy]

Give it to me. I mean it. You're cleared hot. Copy cleared hot.

[Andy]

What year did you get shot?

[Jimmy]

09.

[Andy]

Hold on. We're going to talk about you getting hurt on the leapfrogs.

[Jimmy]

Ooh, that was. You know the cool part about that was Timmy IG saving my life. That's what was cool.

[Andy]

Let me ask you this, because I've seen his son fighting in the ufc. Have we been saying his name wrong the entire time? Yes, because Rogan keeps saying Ige.

[Jimmy]

Yes, that's how you say it.

[Andy]

And the first few times he said that, I may or may not have texted him and been like, hey, you're saying this wrong. And then I. Because I met him at the same time I met you because you were both at the jump team. I never, ever heard anybody say anything other than Timmy ig.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And he never corrected anyone, ever.

[Jimmy]

Never. And, you know, I see him, like, when he's in the ring because he goes and helps Dan.

[Andy]

Yeah. And every time I see him, I want to be like, I'm sorry. Why didn't you just tell me? I would have said your name correctly.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. It just proves he's such a good guy because he's like, that dude is a beast. And his son clearly is. But how's his son doing? Mike, how's he.

[Andy]

Can you. Michael, can you pull up Tim? No. What's his son's name? Tim is his dad.

[Jimmy]

Dan.

[Andy]

Dan Ige.

[Jimmy]

Spelled I as in India, G's in golf, P's and echoes.

[Andy]

What is his record? He fought recently. I don't think it went his way, but I don't think he took a lot of damage. I think it might have been a decision. Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. Before I get into the ad, read, this. Friday's episode will be a little bit different. I'm going to sit down with Josh. Or I already did. Little State of the Union. If you Will talking about American manufacturing. So that's coming this Friday. Now, who is Josh, you may ask? Well, he's the founder of Montana Knife Company. Built it here in Montana. Growing it in Montana. Started in his garage. That's actually when I met him. And then built a building just off of his garage, which I told him the first day may not be big enough. Now he's building something 10 times the size of that, just on the western edge of Missoula. American made products. We'll talk about that again kind of on Friday. Bringing jobs back to the US Paying a living wage. Assembled, finished, sharpened, great warranty, all of those things. Constantly releasing knives Thursdays and Saturdays. I believe he just came up. Keep your eye out for this thing. This is the Mini War Goat. I think if not, that's somehow your fault, Josh, that I said it was the wrong knife. This thing, for those of you that know me, know I'm huge into knife fighting with boxes and envelopes, which is what I'll use this for. I hate knives. I'm scared of knives more than I am guns. But I digress. Montanaknifecompany.com if you go there, there is a selection of knives that are in stock, but that's also where you're gonna go when the drops occur. You can sign up for an email, you can sign up for a text. They go quickly. These are thousands of blades that are selling really quickly. My suggestion to you is this. Buy something small, like a sticker, maybe even a T shirt. They have an amazing design suite of apparel, T shirts, everything from technical gear. Save your payment information. And then when you go back to checkout, it'll really help you in the future. Purchases. Montanaknifecompany.com Go check it out and tune in this Friday. Tim, I apologize for the decades of saying your name incorrectly, as do I.

[Jimmy]

Also.

[Andy]

What an asshole to just let an entire community Mispronounce your name. 1909. Does it say when was his last fight? Okay, what we got here? Sean Woodson Kotk. Okay, so he. Round three, one minute and 12 in, man. He's doing. Yeah. So Kotko, he got. He got dropped, but wasn't like, out out.

[Jimmy]

Wow. But he's fought some good people, huh?

[Andy]

That is a. That is a hard life, man.

[Jimmy]

I can't imagine that is a hard life.

[Andy]

It was cool. I had no idea that his son was fighting. And I have. I will run into him about every 15 years, and we're always like, hey, dude, what's up? And then that's it. And then I saw him ringside. I was like, fucking awesome, man.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. He's proud and it's cool to see, man.

[Andy]

Do you remember him saving your life?

[Jimmy]

Oh, fuck, I don't. What I remember is. No, no.

[Andy]

We need to tell this story. I need you to paint with a. With a broom here a little bit. You can bob RO all you want. We have to. You gotta describe, first off, the ridiculous job that you guys were doing in the late 90s on the parachute team, which was an absolute. Seem to be drinking clusterfuck of a mess. And I. I understand the maneuvers that you guys were trying to do, but I. We have got to try to figure out a way for people to understand what happened to you. Because it's wild because I knew you before the accident.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And then you were slightly different man, after that accident. Then you got hurt again.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Might have spent a little time in a rubber room and were a different man after that accident.

[Jimmy]

About six months, all said and done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That definitely rang my bell in a different way. Yeah.

[Andy]

Yes. I think the first one actually rang your bell. Bell.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I was in a. I was unconscious for a week. Broke. Broke L1 through 5.

[Andy]

So you guys.

[Jimmy]

Was it paralyzed?

[Andy]

Was it Qualcomm?

[Jimmy]

No, we were out at Brownfield.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

And we.

[Andy]

So Jamie was on the navy parachute team.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, it was my first six months on the navy parachute team.

[Andy]

Okay. Which is. What does it fall under? Navy recruiting?

[Jimmy]

At the time, it was under the center.

[Andy]

That's what they pitch it as though.

[Jimmy]

Right.

[Andy]

It's recruiting. Jumping into high. You'll see them. It's like the Gold Knights do a lot of actual skydiving competitions. This is. What would you call it? Canopy demonstration.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Basically smoke, you know, drag planes, like a lot of really cool stuff until it doesn't go your way.

[Jimmy]

Right, right. Yeah. So we had this. Everyone's familiar with the three ring system on the.

[Andy]

I mean, you and I are. It's a broad thing to say. Everyone. So when you have friction reduction system.

[Jimmy]

Right. So when you need to get rid of your parachute, you pull a handle and it lets these rings release each other, and it lets your parachute go away. So you can get your next one out, if that's your choice, of course.

[Andy]

Yes.

[Jimmy]

At any rate, we had a strap that had one of those in us, and so.

[Andy]

And that was to keep two jumpers together. Right. You would tether.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. So basically what I would do, Timmy, was this is the first time I'd ever done this Timmy was the like the most senior guy and by far and away the most talented guy. Like he was.

[Andy]

Yeah, he's a sky God for sure.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, just a natural. He I dock on him, he comes down, puts his feet in right over my right, you know, right where your slider comes down the riser's end. He puts his feet in and then he slowly feeds. This is a carabiner, nylon webbing with a three ring system in the middle.

[Andy]

Pillow only one three wing system.

[Jimmy]

Correct.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

And the pillow was on his side.

[Andy]

Okay, where did you carabiner into?

[Jimmy]

I carabiner into my main lift over here.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

And he had a carabiner in his. And then he said, okay, ready, break. And when he did that, he turned and. And I turn this way. So then we're in a downplane. So both parachutes are facing the ground, going straight down. And it's cool, right?

[Andy]

It looks cool from the ground. It's fun to be in.

[Jimmy]

It's cool. And then the break off's at 500, which turns out might have been a little low.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So. And I'd done it before, but not using the strap.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

Right.

[Andy]

So why even use the strap? Because when I went and augmented the team, let's just say lessons had been learned previously. I'm not gonna mention names or incidents, but the strap was no longer authorized. It was a lot of crossing legs and holding on. That way you're literally just bear hugging people. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

I think this strap was for.

[Andy]

Cause it doesn't make the downplaying any more dynamic, does it?

[Jimmy]

I don't know why it was used, and I wanna say it was because it gave you the ability to. I don't even remember.

[Andy]

Both jumpers could have hands on toggles. It would be less energy. These two waters are for you too, if you need them. Yeah. So both jumpers could have their hands on their toggles or at least in their rises. Because other way you're really holding on, you'd have to. But when you let go, you come out of it. Probably it might just be like a work. Or it was probably pitched as a work reduction device maybe.

[Jimmy]

Well, at any rate, we're hauling ass. And I'm like, yeah, this is cool. And then 500ft. And so he's like, hey man, when we talked, we briefed it before and he's like 500ft. When we break, we turn your head. Because when the three wing comes apart, it'll come. It can slap your. Knock your teeth out. Right. So I'm like, okay, cool. So I turn my head and I feel. And he's a strong son of a. Yeah. I feel he's yanking. I, I, I look over and he's like, pull this together, man. I reach over and I try to grab his. His, like, main lift web. And I'm trying to pull us together to get the tension out of the strap.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Because he couldn't get the could. What had happened. Is it inverted on itself?

[Andy]

Oh, it twisted and it.

[Jimmy]

So the three ring had inverted and it was pinched.

[Andy]

That's never coming out.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. The parachutes are pulling us. And I'm like, trying to pull him over. And then I remember looking at the ground and I'm like, we're fucking dead. Because we were hauling ass. I really did. And then I woke up a week later.

[Andy]

Michael, please go to YouTube and see if you can find a video of actually put a Navy parachute team down plane. I would like to give people. Because we can put it up here so people can watch this. An idea of the vertical velocity of this.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, it was fucking cool until it wasn't.

[Andy]

You know, these days, I mean, I'm sure you've seen this. They'll take it and then they actually will carve it out and bring the canopies back up.

[Jimmy]

I was just down in Florida and watching the Red Devils do it, and it was pretty cool, man. Red Devil, this one here.

[Andy]

No downplay.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Just type in downplaying.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

That's why I got up.

[Andy]

Put it in between team and down. Canopy. Team and down. Good canopy. Then for you, then for you, Michael. Google symptoms of down syndrome.

[Jimmy]

For some reason deleted my. It was fun.

[Andy]

Yeah. I would love to be able to show people an example of this. We may not be able to. Oh, oh, what? Go down. Go down. Hit that bad? Yeah. Enhance. Scroll through gainer. Nice on heading. Keep going, Michael. This is actually, though, showing what you were talking about where they climb the canopy. You're climbing down.

[Jimmy]

Putting his feet in.

[Andy]

Yep. Switching to night. God damn it, Michael. Move forward a little bit. Nope, that's just a smoke. Smoke jumping these days. I just have that squirrel. I think it's an Epicene Pro. Okay, we're getting some canopy stuff. Good old Jim Woods. Okay, hold on. They're not going to show it. Show it.

[Jimmy]

From what I understand, and I could probably be very wrong on this, but I've never heard of anybody landing one of those and surviving. Just me and Timmy. And it was because Timmy reached up and grabbed his.

[Andy]

Not in the configuration that you guys were in. How did Timmy not get hurt, or are you saying that's what he saved your life by grabbing? Okay, this is interesting. So this is actually how they do it now. Now they're side by side. The guy, basically, Michael, has got him in closed guard.

[Jimmy]

Oh, okay.

[Andy]

Yeah. See, he's got his legs around him. And so the guy on the right is actually the one steering. Cause he has his hands up in the toggles. Dude on the left now they're going. What do we got? Call this Scissor guard. Not gay.

[Jimmy]

Lesbian.

[Andy]

Yeah. Rotating. We call this 50. 50. Now we're talking about impacting the ground at that velocity.

[Jimmy]

Perfect. You found ass. Timmy reached up and grabbed his rear risers and pulled him down. And he basically flared like that. So I actually hit first, and then he slapped, but it busted ribs and punctured his lungs.

[Andy]

What were the totality of your injuries?

[Jimmy]

The brain damage was pretty significant.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And then the paralysis, but that was just temporary because of the swelling in my brain, the fractured vertebrae. Pretty big deal.

[Andy]

How long were you in the hospital.

[Jimmy]

That time? A few weeks. And then I was in, like, a. Like, I was in this program where I had to learn how to do the grocery list again and how to seriously, like, I have this much money, and I need to get these many things. Like, seriously.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And I'm in there with, like, stroke people.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And, like, they had, like, a parent teacher conference where my wife would come, and they're like, jimmy did really good today in class.

[Andy]

So you had a massive tbi.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Okay. How in the hell.

[Jimmy]

That was a great story. The guy who signed me back on this is crazy. No other. I mean, so I had to go see a neurosurgeon, and he was going to determine whether or not I was going to stay in the Navy. So the neurosurgeon I go see had been a team guy in Vietnam and then went over to the Air Force and flew Strike Eagles.

[Andy]

Really?

[Jimmy]

And then got tired of that and said, fuck it. I want to go to medical school. And not just medical school, but he wants to be a neurosurgeon. Right.

[Andy]

Was he still wearing his bird?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

That's awesome.

[Jimmy]

And his wings?

[Andy]

Yes.

[Jimmy]

Like, it was cool. And he was so chill. Anyway, I come in and the wife's with me, and I'm fucked up, you know, But I don't want to get out. Right. And he looks at me and he goes, I know what you want. He looks at Kelly and he goes, what do you think? And she goes, well, that's what he wants. He Goes, all right, so it's her fucking fault I got shot. I keep blaming her. It was really her.

[Andy]

How did you make. So where did you go after the jump team, though? Because obviously we shared some time. Not the same squadron, but shared some time at the same command on the East Coast. Yeah, as usual, I was there first. Got injured first or just following in my footsteps. Like, obviously, I got. Yeah. Where did it go after that?

[Jimmy]

So because of. We didn't really know a lot about head injuries at the time. And I started having really bad anger problems. Like, really bad how my wife expressed themselves.

[Andy]

Like, we're talking yelling or damage.

[Jimmy]

Rage throwing, smashing. Just like. Like quick in, like, traffic. And I wasn't even driving. I'm yelling.

[Andy]

Did you know it was happening or did you just feel out of.

[Jimmy]

I felt out of control. So my wife is like, hey, we need to go. So we went to the. We had the. The command for. For war comp. That guy, that captain doctor, and he put me on an antidepressant. And he's like, you know, he told me this story. I guess there was some famous railroad dude. He was like this super, like, religious, kind of upstanding citizen. And he got smashed in the head with a railroad spike in him from a lobe. And he turned into a Drinking, fighting, gun fighting, crazy. So that's the example he gave me. He goes, head injuries. Do this. I'm like, okay. So he put me on. I think it was Zoloft for a little bit.

[Andy]

How did you.

[Jimmy]

Well, I went angry on my head shed. And then I got sent to Yuma to be an instrument.

[Andy]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

I told him to go themselves.

[Andy]

Did you.

[Jimmy]

Did you fucked up? Because they were good people.

[Andy]

Yeah, but I mean, again. And that's the question, like, when you're in that.

[Jimmy]

Oh, you don't know, man.

[Andy]

I was gonna say, did you feel normal? Did you feel like you needed to be on Zoloft?

[Jimmy]

I felt like it was fucking like.

[Andy]

The world was conspiring against you.

[Jimmy]

100%.

[Andy]

How did you come out of that cloud? Like, what is that?

[Jimmy]

Like, I don't know that I did. So then I would say, no, no, no, no. For a while. Okay. I would stop taking the meds, right? Like, you know, take them for a while. And I would mellow.

[Andy]

I am not an expert on these, but I know you were not supposed to recreationally go on and off antidepressants.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, 100%. Well, you know, I'm making great choices, right?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So I was like. I'd go off of it. And then something in my life would hit me, like my wife, and say, hey, are you taking your meds? And then that made me even more pissed off.

[Andy]

Yeah, right.

[Jimmy]

Because all you can see it, you know, So I battled that for a long time. I don't do that anymore. I don't battle it. I don't battle it. I think that the head injury stuff, I mean, it's been. You know, guys have smoked themselves and. And their wives have really done some heroic shit, you know, bringing more attention to it. But I think. I don't know that we're ever really getting our arms around it, you know?

[Andy]

Why do you think it takes some people to the point where they make the choice to kill themselves and others it doesn't.

[Jimmy]

That's a really good question, man.

[Andy]

Because I don't think you can do the job we did. I mean, if you think about it, I mean, even back to jumping, when we're out there at Marana testing new canopies, and you're like, yeah, I guess I always see stars and have nosebleeds on opening it, you know, busted teeth. But yeah, when the bundle, you know, they'll come out with the G shock meters and they're breaking them and they're like, maybe we shouldn't test this. Or your head bouncing off the risers, let alone breaching charges. Whether it's in training and you're just internal and you're eating it or overseas and you turn around your jaw on.

[Jimmy]

The bar in the boat.

[Andy]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. It. I don't think you could do the job without having some micro level of trauma to the brain. But why does it do that? I mean, have you encountered anybody who has an understanding of why it destroys some people and not others?

[Jimmy]

I don't. And I have no clue. And I. You know, one that was really, really hard for me, I was in a really good. You know, I was finishing up my time as an undergraduate recently, and a dude we both know pretty well smoked himself. Probably one of the toughest son of a. In the world, really. And I. I was like, he'd help me when I was in the hospital, in the emergency room, suicidal, gun in the mouth, that kind of stuff. He was there, and I remember saying to him, hey, man, my injuries are only this big. You know, I only got. And he was like, now we all have our way through this. But I was in this class, and we were reading Moby Dick, and there's this part, Ahab, this captain, and he's A. I mean, we all see him in the mirror.

[Andy]

We do.

[Jimmy]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy]

It's been a while.

[Jimmy]

He's there.

[Andy]

I think I might be the whale. Very slow and not intelligent, but the.

[Jimmy]

Whale'S whipping some ass.

[Andy]

I'm okay with that. As long as you don't have to. I don't have to do trigonometry.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I think. Well, there's this chapter 119. It's called the Candles. And Ahab is getting ready, like they've been through some. They're in the storm, and the next day they're going to be fighting the whale. And he's like, well, not the next day, but soon. And he goes on this kind of madcap soliloquy where he talks about. He goes, I know what you want for your worship. He's talking to his. His conception of God. Yeah, but my. The way I'm going to worship you is defiance. That's how I'm going to worship you. Because. And I take, you know, this is my liberal reading of it, you don't have any choice about where you're born, what you look like, what. You don't have any of those choices. So I think there's some defiance. And you know what? And I'm not saying that it's a good thing.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

But I think that sometimes when you feel like there's so much going on that I have no fucking control over. And I also think that when you get to that place. Actually, I had a woman approach me. Her husband had committed suicide. She said, I don't really think he would do it. I just don't think he could do it. I just can't see him that way. And I'm like, nobody can see themselves like that. Yeah, I think that's another thing. Like, when I was there, I mean, I had the booze and drugs in me. Pretty significant, but I still had. I just didn't have hope.

[Andy]

What stopped you from going through with it?

[Jimmy]

I'm a pussy. Maybe. I don't know.

[Andy]

I mean, I mean, that's.

[Jimmy]

My wife came out and I mean.

[Andy]

But clearly, I mean, we. That is demonstrably true. We've known that about you for decades, since we've been friends.

[Jimmy]

But seriously, why is it the tough guys that do that? Like, in buds, man. Toughest guy.

[Andy]

Because I feel like they don't think they can ask for help. I feel like they know that they've been there for other people and that if they ask for help for whatever station they have achieved. And if you look at our old Job, man, how dumb is it? The things that people did for ribbons on your chest that I don't even know where my uniform is. I don't have a single military paraphernalia. I probably do somewhere, but if it is, it's in a box and it's out. And what I want to make sure that I'm not doing is degrading anybody's service. I'm super proud of my service, as I'm sure you are, but I spend a lot of time asking myself at what cost and what was accomplished from it. And if at the end of that, and you have an 8 inch rack, right, and all the gold flare pieces, and you end up unable to have a relationship with a loved one or a friend, you can't manage your finances, you're in the grips of alcohol or substance abuse, and you end up putting a tool in your mouth that we are probably some of the most trained people on earth how to use, and you turn it on yourself. What in the. Was the point of all of that?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I think, you know, the kids, they are the ones who bring the truth, right. And I've had them ask me, why did you. And I had to think about it.

[Andy]

Oh, you mean the kids at school. Yeah, we'll get to Yale. You smart? Smart.

[Jimmy]

Well, actually, this one actually came from a kid in Taiwan. My son teaches the AP Literature at a high school.

[Andy]

No way.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. That's awesome. And he had them read my book. And I went over and I sat in the class and this kid said, why did you do that stuff? You know, And I'm like, I just wanted to be loved and respected and that I didn't think that, you know, the way I came up, I mean, I had some rough times, you know, just like everybody, but the way I came up, man, my relationships were transactional. If you do this, then you get this. If you do this, then you're gonna get the beat out of you and you're not gonna get this.

[Andy]

We're talking about what, familiar with your parents?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I was adopted several times and lived and ran away and lived in different places. So the military made sense, right?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

You show up and it wasn't that hard either. Show up, run a razor across your face, shine your boots on time, you know, And I figured by reading all the. Because I didn't read what I was supposed to read, you know, as a kid, I read war books. So I knew if I went out for a hard unit, like, then I'd see love. Right? Because those dudes would Give it up for each other. I'll tell you what, man, as silly as that sounds, I sure as saw that dudes covered open ground in a gunfight to save my life. And the guys flying those helicopters. Oh, dude, they dropped us off in a. And then they came back. Right.

[Andy]

Like, I often wonder now that I fly helicopters where the compartment that they keep their balls in because I feel like they need another fleet. Fleet, those guys.

[Jimmy]

Oh, my God, man.

[Andy]

Dude, I've had some Chinook pilots on some.

[Jimmy]

Alan Mack.

[Andy]

Yeah, Dude. When he was talking through, just working the problem after getting the living shit shot out of his 47 on Roberts Ridge and just. Oh, yeah, well, there went the hydraulic flu. We're gonna die. And there's just a crew chief pumping some in the back. He says, oh, we're good now. Just keeps flying. Oh, we're gonna die now. But like completely flatline. Working the problem and then after that getting another one and going right back there. My God. Yeah, at least we could shoot back probably, right? That dude's just up there. He's flying school bus, bullet magnet. Hey, you can hear me from 10 miles. Start shooting at me whenever you want, right?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. And then, you know, I did a podcast with him recently called the Hangar Z podcast. And he was on there at the same time.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Because he was in the Robert. Not the Robert's Ridge, sorry, the Red Wings thing. And I was there. Right. So we roped in after and all that stuff. And I said on there, whoever the flew that because we had to blow some trees down to get the. Get them to come in and get the bodies out.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And dude, those trees were like, you know, 100 some odd feet. And they were. They weren't like they were gonna cause some damage. So he. And he told me on that podcast it was him. Of course it was. Right? Yeah, he flew, you know, it was on a ridge line, so there might have been some wind at about 11K.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And he flew that thing in and brought it straight down an elevator shaft of trees that didn't have but maybe a couple feet of tolerance like it was. And then we're carrying the bodies on, you know, And I'm like, yeah. Damn, man. Yeah, you're right. Those dudes have some minerals.

[Andy]

It is unbelievable.

[Jimmy]

They deployed more than us, like they were deployed. They were doing shorter deployments.

[Andy]

Their op tempo was. Was higher. Well, they were supporting two units.

[Jimmy]

Yep.

[Andy]

You know, they had the CAD guys and the blue guys. I mean, back and forth, you know, it's interesting, you talk about your Your childhood. Did you ever talk to people while you were in about it? So. And this is why I bring this up. It is.

[Jimmy]

No.

[Andy]

It's fascinating.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

The people that wanted to do what we used to do. I try to tell people we are the most normal people in many, many ways. It's an abnormal desire, for sure. But I didn't have a lot of conversations with guys while we were in, like, hey, man, like, yeah, how's your dad and mom doing? It wasn't any of that.

[Jimmy]

Right.

[Andy]

The number of people that I have talked to who, I'll use a broad term, maybe not necessarily theirs, but came from a traumatic upbringing that sought that particular job. There's gotta be something there. And I think it has something to do with what you described. It's either the love of the people that were around you or another one that I've heard is people that were pretty heavily abused looking for a way to smash bullies.

[Jimmy]

Oh, I love that shit.

[Andy]

Yeah. But here's the problem. If you don't deal with the shit you brought in and you pair it with the shit that happens when you're getting a milkshake, then you leave. And geographically separate, you are a ticking time bomb.

[Jimmy]

You're a menace to yourself, your family.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

100%. Yeah.

[Andy]

I didn't have any of those conversations when guys. When I was in.

[Jimmy]

You know, I think the first conversation I had about it was after I did the plant medicine. Really was a bunch of dudes that had done our line of work.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And we're like, that happened to you, too. I remember there's a dog.

[Andy]

It's statistically anomalous, the number of guys like, I have. No, I don't think there's a study. I have no data to support it. And I can only speak for the conversations I've had with people we know. But I'm like, what the fuck? I'd call it 8 out of 10.

[Jimmy]

There's a guy who actually. What was his name? Blue. He was in Blue. Started the plant medicine thing in the community. He and his wife kind of started it up. Anyway, they just did a documentary.

[Andy]

Capone.

[Jimmy]

Yes.

[Andy]

Marcus Capone.

[Jimmy]

One of the doctors that they used in that said if it wasn't for child abuse, we wouldn't have a military. And I was like, whoa. So I took that actually for my class. Look at the Spartans. Right. So they went through these particular things. And I took a book by a professor on Harriet Tubman. Harriet Tubman. What she went through made the Spartans look like playground. Right. But what did that do to her? What did it do to the Spartans? Why? Were guys like us good at that stuff?

[Andy]

Did you know the Spartans usually had to shave their bride's head on their wedding night?

[Jimmy]

Really?

[Andy]

Yeah. They were so used to butt each other.

[Jimmy]

I never understood that. Like, why are we so. I mean, you guys do know that they. Each other on the regular.

[Andy]

Did we miss out on a bonding opportunity by not following in their footsteps?

[Jimmy]

I mean, I tried. It's painful.

[Andy]

There's a lot of dudes who would talk about Spartan type stuff, and every time I'm like, do we.

[Jimmy]

Can we just play the whole program?

[Andy]

Yeah. You guys are covering about 80% of what happened, and you're really leaving this in the grave, right?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, another thing about them that I didn't know that since I started learning and loving these classics. Right. Is the only reason that they could do what they did is they had a whole support community like we did at the command.

[Andy]

Well, you know what else? They had a really long time marching home before they got there to deal with their shit.

[Jimmy]

That's actually true. Yeah.

[Andy]

Yeah. No, if you think about it, they march their way back and they.

[Jimmy]

What do you talk about?

[Andy]

But they're with their boys who had the same experiences in an environment where it's safe to talk about those things. And if you look at almost every culture, warrior culture, to include Native Americans, there was a distinct process between. You're going to go out and be on the warpath. You are going to have a ceremony of some kind where you can talk about whatever you want, you can tell your story to the people, and then you transition back in when you remove that dude. I was home 96 hours after getting shot by myself. Stairs come down on the teeny weeny bird in Oceana. And my wife with my oldest son, who is now almost 22, is in a fucking stroller and she's six months pregnant.

[Jimmy]

After Red Wings. After that, I was home 96 hours after that.

[Andy]

Did you guys just happen to be over there when Red Wings went down?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. And it went sideways really bad.

[Andy]

Oh, yeah. It went real, real bad. So, okay, so for people listening who may not. I mean, I think most people know what this is. This is the lone survivor. You could watch a movie or read a book about it. I'm not going to discuss the accuracy or inaccuracy of either of those things. We'll leave that for another time. Konar, take a look at it. Not the best area. The people that are up there are not Your casual fighters, that the guys are going to go walk a poppy field with an AK for two hours.

[Jimmy]

They're pretty hardcore.

[Andy]

Pretty hardcore. I will say. Not the best idea to go with.

[Jimmy]

Four people, but in a who concert that looks like a school bus and think you're sneaking, dude.

[Andy]

Yeah. Okay. So the huge firefight. People can research the aftermath of that. You were at red at the time.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So what ended up happening? Did they spin you guys up as it was going down or. Because then. Well, not only was there the loss of life from that SDV element, it was after the second QRF, a helicopter. Didn't a 47 take an RPG? It basically augered in.

[Jimmy]

Actually, it was flaring. So the guy. I mean, it went to the same spot, and I think it went to.

[Andy]

The same spot as the insert.

[Jimmy]

And yes. And there were fast ropes on the ground. So when they heard the helicopters coming up the valley, which for people who.

[Andy]

Don'T understand is in that area, I'm going to call that 15 minutes early. Probably with the acoustics. It is. Let's just say we have seen the video that's available.

[Jimmy]

You can see them running and you can hear the helicopters. You can see them running. You know where they're running to? Because they know.

[Andy]

Well, and here's the thing, too. I always tread lightly on any type of ttp. We had to shift our tactics because of the acoustics. If you wanted to get the jump on people, and I'll leave it at that, they know you're coming. They went right back to the insertion.

[Jimmy]

Point, as far as I can tell. Okay, you know, and. But. And we'll get, like. When we got there, we walked in, in the range, you know, with The Rangers, probably 20 some out of them guys. And in fact, I ran into one skydiving. He was working for the SOCOM CARE Coalition. He was helping some guys learn how to skydive that had some amputations and stuff. I was taking pictures, and he's like, hey, man, did you. Did you guys think that was bad luck on, like, your team? Because we lost, like, a lot of the guys that were on Red wings from the 2nd Ranger Battalion. They got. Guys get killed and hurt and get really fucked up. And I'm like, you know that we didn't lose many guys, Lou. But I think it did affect everybody in a really negative sense. I think there was a lot. And I think for me, the biggest part of the whole thing was there was never an after action. The only people who did an AAR were the TF you know, the 160 guys, we never did one. I never heard of an official. I never saw one.

[Andy]

Seriously.

[Jimmy]

Swear to God.

[Andy]

Michael, will you please look up the total casualties for Operation Red Wing? Because I believe it's double digits for sure. Because that 47 was packed. How could you not do 16?

[Jimmy]

So the 47 had a, you know.

[Andy]

Four on the car.

[Jimmy]

All the. All the seals were at the back getting ready to rope. So their bodies got blown down that fucking ravine. And when we got there, it was still smoking. The. There was an engine cowling and part of a blade.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

On the edge of the ravine. And then you could see the black, you know, oil and fuel. And that went down in. The Rangers were like, hey, we'll go down and get those guys because they're your friends, man. And those dudes. Yeah, they had to drink their iv. I mean, like recently, actually.

[Andy]

I don't know. It. How serendipitous. There was a picture of Rangers. Yeah, they were ivied up on their infill, just walking in. Did you find Michael?

[Jimmy]

19 killed, one wounded.

[Andy]

How in the fuck could you not do an AAR on that?

[Jimmy]

Maybe there is one. And I didn't see it. I never could. And then it was funny because the next deployment, we were in Iraq and we had augments. And these guys come in and they start telling the story, not knowing that, you know, a handful of us were there. And it was so fucking far from the truth that I was fucking so angry that I remember asking, is there a fucking after action somewhere? Like it turned into such a fucking fairy tale. And I went round, round, round. And eventually that whole thing really took a toll on me because I bitched so much and I talked so much shit about those guys and about. And when I got hurt, I had to think about the ways I acted the same. Right now there's some big differences, of course, but, yeah, one could argue that I made.

[Andy]

One of the bigger differences would be that you were telling the truth when you got hurt.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy]

I don't want a Monday morning quarterback anything. But every time I talked about. And I was not involved in it, I wasn't overseas. Like I said, it was Red Squadron that was over there. Every time that I've talked about it with people, it was through the lens of lessons learned, through the mistakes that were made of which there were a lot. And again, like, I kind of made a joke like, you don't go to Konor with four people. You don't fucking do that.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, you don't go Anywhere in Afghanistan and think you're not gonna get found.

[Andy]

Yeah, I mean, counter's like troop plus minimum, because those guys up there are ready to party 24 7. 24 7. Like. Yeah. You're gonna find dudes sleeping in their.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Which, you know, I mean, not that you couldn't find that, like in other provinces, but.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I mean, there's a reason that they're up there.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. It was only 3.3k from the Pakistani border, so it was.

[Andy]

Yeah. So how did. So you guys did. You guys. We were up there for.

[Jimmy]

Ended up. So we ended up walking while the rangers went and got those guys bodies. Which. Man, that was. I can't imagine what that was like, carrying those bodies back up that hill because they were intact. Like the. The crew. All they found were some bones because they were strapped to the.

[Andy]

Oh, did they just kind of get spit out the back and died from the impact?

[Jimmy]

They were all burnt really bad.

[Andy]

Okay. Yeah, whatever it is, I hope it was quick.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, me too. Anyway, we. We put the bodies on there. The next morning it was raining.

[Andy]

And.

[Jimmy]

Man, I want to tell this, but I don't want to. I don't want Lou's kids to hear this.

[Andy]

Didn't Lou die on extortion?

[Jimmy]

He did, but when was he involved.

[Andy]

With that recovery as well?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, we're standing there, it was raining. It rained all night. It was nasty. And we're standing up there and I'm. It's still smoking. And they were getting ready to send us down into the village to start, like, trying to figure out what the was going on. And Lou, he. He walks up to me, he goes, man, well, fuck, I wouldn't want to die like that. He goes, it's like they were in a car wreck. They didn't even get a chance to fight.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Six years later, bro.

[Andy]

God, Lou, such a fucking funny guy.

[Jimmy]

Bluey blue 82, Lou. 82.

[Andy]

So I think.

[Jimmy]

But I don't know if that's something you guys should, you know, with his kids, that.

[Andy]

That one's not bad because honestly, I think everybody can understand. They probably wouldn't fucking burn to death. I Openly say on YouTube my goal in flying helicopters, not die slowly covered in jet a fucking from head to toe. Like, my nightmare is somehow I survive a crash and I'm pinned. And not that this is plausible, but like, gas is coming down on me from uphill as it's burning, and like, that's the shit of nightmares.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So, Lou, when I went through AFF at Skydive San Diego, with dudes like fucking Adam, who again, you know, fuck. Ended up dying. Civilian. Ended up dying for, you know, substance abuse problems. On my ninth jump, first solo. Timmy's on the fucking bird. It's in the caravan. Lou is on the bird. He's still a team. And. Right. Because I had to go out first. It was one of their lows. He just looks at me and goes, hey, man, don't fucking die.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, that's Lou.

[Andy]

And I was like, okay, that's pretty good feedback. And just fucking dove out and did a solo belly. I think I might have done some front flips. Cause I was terrified to do anything.

[Jimmy]

Else, but that's awesome.

[Andy]

God, he was such a good dude, man.

[Jimmy]

He was. He was something. You know, back to what you were saying about, you know, the Spartans walking and having that time to talk. There's this guy.

[Andy]

We're talking months, man. Yeah, well, depending on where, you know, it started off.

[Jimmy]

But the. There was a. A General Sophocles, and he's written a bunch of tragedies. My favorite is Tragedy of Ajax.

[Andy]

But he would like the sink cleaner.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, except this dude was a badass cleaner. He would. He wrote these plays after these wars, and he made the veterans act them out. And then all of the. Athens, all of the city came to these plays, and he. There's a guy named Brian Doris who's written really, some really good stuff about it. Essentially, he saw that as a way for them to get through the things they needed to get through to come back to being a good citizen. Being a good citizen was a really big deal then. So in that sense, it was kind of like the walk back. He. He wrote up. Wrote these plays that showed, like, the Oedipus stuff, right? Like, the tragedy of life. Like, you don't. Again, you don't have these choices, and you end up in these positions, and you're just kind of fucked. And you got to work it out, and there's no real easy way to do it, and there's no pretty way, and it's just life. He had those guys go through those things on the stage. And then the citizens came and watched it, and they were all kind of there feeling those emotions together. So this guy, Brian Dorries, actually took a troupe of actors and took it out to San Diego, actually, when the Marines came back from one of the deployments in Iraq, and dudes lost it, crying, screaming at the generals, like, it. It was a big deal. But that's the things that it elicits.

[Andy]

That's what it's supposed to do.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I'm of the opinion that if you touch war, it touches you back.

[Jimmy]

Wow. Yeah.

[Andy]

I mean, and, you know, like, I have a coffee cup and we have a water, like, meaning that, like, different volume, except for this is probably identical, just a different shape. That's horrible. Now, you know what I mean? Some people are a shot glass. Some people are redneck guzzler. 64 ounce, 7 11. You know, soda. Can I. You can only take so much, man.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I think I tell, like, the kids, you know, they ask about it, you know, and I'm like, you don't. It's the same way. I think you get numb to the politics.

[Andy]

Did you ever get numb to it?

[Jimmy]

The work?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. I call it Che Cliff.

[Andy]

Did you really?

[Jimmy]

Che Guevara. Not only numb to it, but, like, I like the violence. Really?

[Andy]

No, I loved the violence, but I never got numb to it.

[Jimmy]

Oh. I was like, this is just. Yeah, all right.

[Andy]

I mean, clearly you're crazy. I've not mad about you for a long time.

[Jimmy]

We talked. We talked about the head injuries. Yeah.

[Andy]

I always understood what it was. I loved it, but I. I loved it because I. I felt like it was important and it had a purpose. And let's be honest, I am a competitive person, and I like winning. And I can't think of a game on a board that has higher stakes than what we used to do.

[Jimmy]

Did you ever. Let me ask you this. Did you ever think you were going to lose? Because I never did. When we went out, I was. And it didn't matter what it was.

[Andy]

I constantly asked myself and was wondering whether or not I was good enough to be with the people that I was with. I never thought. I don't think I ever thought about losing. I think my biggest fear was not being good enough and fucking up and somebody else getting hurt.

[Jimmy]

My first philosophy class at Yale, professor asked me flat out in front of me, he's like, hey, man, when you went into combat, like, really into it, what was the. What was on your mind? Like, what was front and center? And I'm like. He said, you're worried about your life? And I said, no. I said what I was worried about was making a mistake and getting one of my mates hurt.

[Andy]

Yeah, or killed. I mean, you're aware it's a life and death thing. And I think, again, I can only speak for myself. I mean, I was aware of the circumstances. Right. I'm aware of the gravity, clearly. We had volunteered multiple times to even be where we were gonna be at so you had thought your way through that in a peacetime, and maybe that helps because you had already in some way put the puzzle piece together in your head. You're like, okay, there is risk associated with this. I'm accepting that risk. And it allows you to front side focus. Right? Yeah, but man, I'm trying to think about. I mean, most of the time when I was over there, I was a point man. I was just like, where's the next. Like, where's the next place I have to get? Like, yeah, where's the ready point? Where's that? Like all these things? That's all I was thinking about was a chunk at a time.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, you guys carry a lot of weight. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think that at some point there were times where I thought, okay, to what end? Like, what the. Are we really doing?

[Andy]

Yeah, you know, I have more of those thoughts now.

[Jimmy]

I do. And, you know, that's one of the great things about going to school was that I got to work through a lot of that with people that didn't know that I was working through that. I was working through their. But yeah, in these classes and talking about. That's one great thing about the classics because nothing we say or do is all that original. We're not that fucking special creation.

[Andy]

Probably the first generation of human beings, I think that was the end of original creations. We are idiots, though. We like to do a lot of the same things and claim that it's new. I mean, computers, that's probably pretty new.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy]

You know, flight. I'll give you that one human flight. There were birds around, but that's the thing too.

[Jimmy]

Like, we're talking about AI, right? So technology, you know, we have fucking iPhones and running water, but we're still assholes. We'll still fucking kill each other. Lie, steal, cheat, rape, all the things. We're not. Like, our DNA is not keeping up.

[Andy]

So, no, the technology is evolving faster than humans are. And I think that's probably the problem. Like, I don't think using the phone as an example, if you get on news media of any kind and it was all you saw of the world, you would constantly think there is an existential crisis. Because he. It's like an earthquake which has happened since the be probably again, I'm not an expert in the world, but earthquakes and tsunamis and people dying in catastrophes, you would have never heard about that. But now if you want to, and if you live on that device, it's all you see. Oh, yeah, I don't Think your brain is designed to deal with that.

[Jimmy]

I agree.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

You know who I don't see doing that? My classmates.

[Andy]

What are you talking about? Aren't there the generation that. What was the average age of your classmates?

[Jimmy]

18 to 22.

[Andy]

They're not on social media.

[Jimmy]

Not like that. They all have accounts. Yeah, but you don't. Like, they don't even answer texts. Like, they. They're very detached from it. It's a very disciplined approach to it. Like, there are times where I'm, like, texting these kids. I'm like, hey, I don't hear from them. And they're like, yeah, I don't check my phone until like, six. You know, they have a very big discipline about it.

[Andy]

Interesting. I think that is the way. I think that will serve you far better than the. You know, you have to manage the device and not let the device manage you, which. Yeah, easier said than done. My screen time would indicate that I have problems with that from time to time.

[Jimmy]

I do. Like a fucking meme, you know?

[Andy]

How did you go from learning to do your grocery list again to screening for selection, Dude?

[Jimmy]

Well, see, I had been there. I had gone there as a. In 94. I got there, I was a boat guy. And then I went through another green team to go to the assault side, and, boy, I barely made it through that and then got to, you know, I was there in red, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, knocking it out. And I was like, I've never been to a professional baseball game ever. And I really like jumping. And this is like. I don't know. I keep working hard, but we haven't really done anything, you know?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So I said it. I'll try out for the jump team. And I tried out, and they picked me up. I went out there and.

[Andy]

But then to Yuma.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Then I went from there to Yuma, and then Yuma. I called the master chief at the time when I was out there. I said, hey, man, I. I really want to come back. You know, a lot of my friends have been getting in the. And I really feel like, you know. And he let me come back.

[Andy]

Did you have to go through selection again? That's the way, yeah.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I might have wanted to brush up on maybe this. Whatever they're calling it now, CQB phase or whatever acronym it is.

[Jimmy]

You know, it's funny. They put me through. They took me to Shaws with the squadron, and they put me in with some guys that were relatively new.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

In my first run, I shot all the targets in the Room. And like everybody else was kind of slow. And they're like, okay, you're done.

[Andy]

I remember my first Shaw's killhouse run in green team. God, they're horror. I know. I didn't. I identified zero targets. I blasted them all. I was up there with my fucking two to six number one man. And I got.

[Jimmy]

Fuck.

[Andy]

They're so good at inducing stress. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Fucking Aaron Baldwin and New Decker giving a brief. It was. And it was. By brief, I mean the entire thing was brief. They're like, these are the performance standards. This is what it should look like. Go fucking line up. I was like, oh, dude. And you know, there's sweeping angles and how far off you should be somebody's barrel and when you should decock and.

[Jimmy]

How far off the wall.

[Andy]

Yeah, I remember that door open and I just went in there and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And shuttle targets. And then as I was clearing back, I had the realization that I probably should have identified whether or not they were shoot targets. Thank God they were, because I probably would have been gone that first day.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Yeah. It got better after that, but man.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Stressful.

[Jimmy]

It was. That was a stressful time. Yeah.

[Andy]

When it's a one to one ratio and you have a guy assigned to watch. Not that he's like specifically watching you, but they'll Every time. Because it was. We started with two man entries.

[Jimmy]

Yep.

[Andy]

And I think there was four dudes in the rafters. You're getting away with absolutely nothing.

[Jimmy]

Nothing. Yeah, I saw where your eyes went. What do you mean?

[Andy]

Yeah. Decock. Too late. Or this out the other. Yeah, that was.

[Jimmy]

I heard now they got the fellows wearing, like bio devices and they can see what their heart rates and breathing's doing and all that kind of stuff, which is funny.

[Andy]

I wonder if that would help them identify the sociopath because mine would have just been in the red race cards. I mean, stress is real, but as you know, you can. I. You get a performance increase into a certain level and you take a base jump off a cliff.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. And then it all crumbles.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So what year did you get back to the squadron then?

[Jimmy]

2004.

[Andy]

Okay. Yeah, that's right. Because we did have some good crossover time.

[Jimmy]

And then.

[Andy]

So you got there right before I got hurt.

[Jimmy]

Yep.

[Andy]

Yep. That was fucking fun.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And then you were with Jeff Hardware. I have a good amount of whatever it is that hit me still in my hip.

[Jimmy]

Okay.

[Andy]

Yeah. They never did it. They left it all in.

[Jimmy]

Really.

[Andy]

They described to me what they would have done to go exploratory to look for it. And I said, is there another option? Thankfully, I had the wherewithal to ask him if there was a better option. And the doc was like, oh, yeah, well, just your body should encapsulate it in calcium and you should be fine. I'm like, why did you not lead with that? Because you led with intubation. Flip me over on my stomach 2D x ray as you slice and start pulling things apart. Yeah, where can we go with you?

[Jimmy]

Why don't we just chill?

[Andy]

Yeah. He's like, all right, cool. We'll get you medevaced out to Germany. And then I took a civilian flight home. And God, yeah, what a shit show. And was just left to my own devices for rehab. Which thankfully, though, like we were talking about with Steve, that's how I found CrossFit. And I originally found it through Twight Mark Twite, who was running a gym at the time called Jim Jones Salt Lake. Yeah, yeah. And in the story arc of that company, Jim Jones became something else. But when I found it, Jim Jones was actually an affiliate gym of CrossFit.

[Jimmy]

Okay.

[Andy]

And he came out for that seminar and that honestly, probably, dude, I was really deep into experimentation. Of not because I had the nerve, you know, I mean, I don't need to tell you, but I don't know about your nerve pain. I was distracted during the day, so I was fine. But I would lay down at night and try to sleep. And it was the only thing I could. I could not sleep. Yeah. But if I drank a bottle of Captain Morgan Spice rum and had about six Ambien, I'd catch a few hours doze. I didn't start at 6 for clarity, started at 1.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But then you wake up, exhaust, exhausted, all of that. And then I had like, there could be 30 water bottles on here. And I'm just like, yeah. And a lot of people have asked me, well, are you pissed about, you know, the military, the medicine, the treatment that you got? I'm like, listen, they did the best they could at the time. It was early on.

[Jimmy]

I agree.

[Andy]

And I was a willing participant in the treatment that I was receiving, but I was also a willing participant in getting my way off of it. But, man, having Twite come out and dude, it was. I think it was a four or five day seminar. There's only like six of us. Sanders was one of them. And, God, we just kicked the out of ourselves. That's what got me off all that stuff.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I finally slept after I Physically exhausted myself. And the first day was holding on to a. A vertical pole and like lowering myself into a squat like five. Just drenched. Probably more in chemicals than sweat.

[Jimmy]

It's funny, CrossFit did that for me too. It just took me. I was just a progress. I actually just joined a Gym in Norfolk, CrossFit 757. And John, the guy owned it. And yeah, they took good care of. And then like, you know, they cared about, you know, the whole. It was good support, man. It was really cool. It's a great environment.

[Andy]

It can be. It can be.

[Jimmy]

Can also be a cult. Yeah.

[Andy]

But I mean, the job we used to have is kind of a cult too.

[Jimmy]

You think?

[Andy]

Yes, I do think.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Not only does it meet the five technical descriptions or descriptors, but, yeah, 100% is in every respect occult. So unpack the night you got shot and should probably explain what it is you guys were doing. I'm actually curious your thoughts, Mr. Bergdahl.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

Where do you land on him these days? Because he's out now.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

And there has been a lot of talk that nobody was injured, nobody was killed in the search for Mr. Bergdahl.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. So it's interesting that that was the case. So in my mind, right. So we had canceled a mission because of the illum. Right. It was basically. We had a full sun out. Right.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And not a lot of wind and, you know, summer. And you're not hiding in front of. So we canceled. We were going up to somebody and we thought, well, you know, we can do this. This is an immediate. We can do this. You can wait. Then we got some intel, and part of the intel was that these guys were talking about, you know, Bergdahl.

[Andy]

They'd been had. He already walked off base.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was in Bagram the night he did that.

[Andy]

You know, there's actually people who have tried to say that it wasn't. I mean, I've read the letters he left behind in the N2 shop and looked at them. That motherfucker straight up deserted.

[Jimmy]

Like, he told me that there were no letters. And I remember reading it. And Scotty, I've seen it next to me.

[Andy]

I have fucking seen them myself.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. I was like, they didn't have him in the trial. They didn't have any of it.

[Andy]

Bullshit.

[Jimmy]

Well, he totally deserved.

[Andy]

Yeah. Unless the N2 dude showed me. Yeah. A PDF of the letters that were written.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

God, why? Didn't have a cell phone at the time. Just look chink.

[Jimmy]

But I remember. I remember when they handed me the intel. I remember reading his stuff, and I looked at, you know, some of the stuff that he'd written.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Personally, I'm like, this guy's. You know, he's definitely hurting in the mental capacity in some way. And later on, when I was in the court martial, it was clear. I mean, I. It was clear that he's deficient. I mean. And then it came out later that he'd been asked to leave the Coast Guard boot camp because they thought he was, you know, mentally hurt. And, yeah, he walked off for sure. And he admits it. At any rate, that night, I was like, okay, these guys are on the phone. So they're talking. As far as I'm concerned, they're involved. He's a American. Maybe he's a piece of that. Walked off, but he's got a mom.

[Andy]

Is this the high alum night that they were on the phone?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Okay. Same night.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

And I'm like, we gotta go. We gotta do this. And everybody agreed. And then we had a discussion about how we were gonna go about it. And I won that one. But it was the more risky of the ways to do it. But I did it because I felt tactically it was a lot smarter. And I got tired of that argument about how far away they could hear the helicopters. I got tired of that. You know what I mean? I don't know if you guys ever argued with the people flying the drones, but, like, oh, they can't hear us. We're 24,000ft. I'm like, you. You guys get on a fucking airplane.

[Andy]

And come over here because it sounds a very quiet lawnmower, right? But that's what it. You can hear preds and reapers. 100%.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I was like, look, this is. I would not have gone. I would not have said to go if there had not been conversations about that guy, right? So that was the impetus for me. Turns out these guys were pretty bad crew. Anyway. They'd been doing a lot of ambushes and some other shit. Anyway, we got in there, we did what we could do, and I didn't find out until much later that the first proof of life came off of the guys that I was immediately involved with.

[Andy]

Cause you were with a dog at this time, right?

[Jimmy]

I was the team leader. And there was a guy, a handler and a dog, and it was their first gunfight. That's why I asked him to come with. I had to split my team up, at any rate, so that was the reason we left. Now, here's the deal. When it came out in the court stuff, there was never technically an op order, anything written to go try to rescue Bo Bergdahl. So technically, you could say that nobody was injured trying to rescue him. But I can tell you that we wouldn't have gone out had that not been the case. Right. So it's like. It's a formality thing.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Like, the judge in there, he's a technicality for sure. He goes. He asked me, he goes, why did you go that night? And I said, because he's an American and he has a. He has a mom. Like, he was trying to decide, like there are. I think the argument was that we didn't actually go out to rescue him, that we went out for another reason. So it was a.

[Andy]

It was a man. That's a stretch.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Well, I can just say I was a team leader. And they said these guys had been talking about him. And I said, okay, we're going. So whether that was an official order, I don't know.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And. But I will tell you this. They did ask me later. They're like, jimmy, what do you think should happen to him? And I said, I don't think you guys give a fuck what I think.

[Andy]

Strong answer, by the way.

[Jimmy]

And they said, actually, that's not true. We want to know. The big people want to know. And I said, I think he deserves a dishonorable discharge. That's a life sentence. And they're like, no, prison. I'm like, no, I think he's done enough. And the things that he went through, he volunteered for.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

But they're significant. And I don't think that he should be. He up. He paid the price. And a dishonorable discharge is a life sentence, and that's what they gave him. And of course, there's been some fights back and forth. What's really funny is the civilian. Big civilian lawyer that represents him is a professor at Yale.

[Andy]

Really?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually. Actually, when I was at the trial, the court martial, I was in the hotel. We were in the same hotel. And I walked up to him and I said, hey, man, thanks for defending him. I'm an American. I believe that everybody deserves, you know, fair trial. And he's like. Like, you're welcome. You know? And I walked off, and he goes, hey, come here. And he goes. And I lean down, he goes, your fly's undone. You're a good. So he wasn't a bad guy after all. Anyway, yeah, the mission was like. It was crazy. So we were going to the Y. Turned out to Be the X big fight. Ended up splitting up a lot of guys.

[Andy]

As soon as you guys got off.

[Jimmy]

Was it straight before the, the helicopters landed? The door gunners were getting it. Yeah. And then it was a fight and then there was just people screaming and running everywhere and it was, it was just chaos. So I had to split up the team, engage some folks, just. There's three of, three of us in the dog. And actually cut to a spot. You know how on night vision when it's really bright it washes things out. It's difficult to see details. Right.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So there were some dark spots in this ditch. And I said, hey man, let's send the dog over, figure out what it is. Dog went over and didn't like hit super hard. I was like, that's kind of weird. And then the handler told me he went in and he did hit hard. And I ran up behind him and they were kids. So the, the dog had found the biggest of the kids. She was probably 14. And I, the two little kids. He got the dog and I grabbed the two little kids and I walked them out in the field. It was like a five year old little girl and like a three year old little boy. And I sat him down and I think if I remember the word, I can't, I can't remember the word. I think I told him to sit down or stay there or something. And then I went back to get the girl and I tried to get her up and she was in the fetal. Pretty rough night, you know. All of a sudden there's bombs going off.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Shooting and screaming. And then a dog runs up and bites her in the ditch.

[Andy]

Well, don't forget the alien spaceship that landed.

[Jimmy]

Right. Exactly.

[Andy]

And the aliens that jumped off and.

[Jimmy]

The guy with the green.

[Andy]

Exactly, yeah.

[Jimmy]

So she's just tight and I pick her up and I throw over my shoulder and I run out by the kids and I take a bunch of IR chem lights and I throw them around and I just, as I call up to the gunship and tell them, you know, hey, there's kids right here. I see they burn about 400 meters from us and there's some dudes carrying some heavy. And I'm like, okay, this is next, right. So we move kind of got on line on the wind line. It's funny the things I can't remember, but the wind was. Wind was out of the east. We landed south to north. So I lined the dog up with the handler and we sat there for a second. I waited. They ducked down. The figures that we saw they kind of ducked down. I'm like, let's go. And we started walking. And the dog. I've done this before, man. This has worked. We didn't have any advantage. It was bright. It was an away game. We're in a field like a pool table, but it had poppies that had been harvested a month before. So it's like we're walking on lays potato chips, you know what I mean? So. And to me, in my mind, this is a hostage rescue mission. I'm not going to wait around, you.

[Andy]

Know, I think the only thing you could have done to make that worse is maybe turn on a non IR strobe 100%. What the fuck, man?

[Jimmy]

Or started singing, whistling. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So we start. Jesus, we start taking off and I'm watching the dog. And again, I've done this before and the dog's saved us, you know, the dog got up to. I could see his tail come up and I could see his shoulders. And I knew, okay, man.

[Andy]

The Hawks start coming up. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And I'm up, I'm up, I'm up. And all of a sudden, boom, he gets blasted back. I can see the muzzle flash. In the muzzle flash. I can see. I'm not. He didn't get shot by Bo Burg dog, you know. So, yeah, I start filling him in and I yell to the dog guy to get the dog back. And I took a step with my right leg and the guy next to him in the ditch just. Just sprayed and hit me in the leg. I can't believe he didn't hit anybody else. So I went down and I remember in the air going, don't scream. They're right there. Don't scream, don't scream, don't scream. I couldn't help. I was screaming so loud and I couldn't help it, man. So while I'm reloading my lungs to scream again, I'm like, you know, it was horrible, man. So I lay there and I remember I could hear like, I heard him pop a grenade. And I'm like, now I'm done for sure. And I was waiting for him to get up and start walking. I kept trying to think about getting my gun up again. And when I was screaming and my femur got blown out the back, I was. It was nasty. And those guys took care of the job. They. Mike Tucson just walked, just fucking smoked them all. The grenade didn't get anybody. You know how they always kept the pins out and those two grenades on the edge and yeah, he was just.

[Andy]

You know, Not a fan, personally, just so you know. Yeah, fuck you guys for doing that.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. So I blacked out a little bit. Apparently. I screamed a lot of things. I was really screaming about the dog because I really felt. And dogs don't understand.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

What we're asking them to do. And we're pretty up.

[Andy]

I think they kind of do.

[Jimmy]

I don't think they understand bombs. I don't.

[Andy]

They don't understand bombs, but I think they know what their role is there because they are.

[Jimmy]

They know how to fight.

[Andy]

Yeah. They're kind of into it.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Well, I mean, but if you told them we're gonna give you a tennis ball, but you might get shot, they probably wouldn't do it, or.

[Andy]

I would agree.

[Jimmy]

There's a pretty good chance that we're gonna get. I remember being in a house. I could tell stories a lot. At any rate, I was. I just, you know, it was horrible.

[Andy]

And then tourniquet, then Fentanyl lollipop.

[Jimmy]

Yep. Sue came over, put the trinket on me, called the Hilos. Then two other dudes had to cover some open ground to get to me, and that was a pretty big deal when they got to me. They're both 18 Delta guys, and all they had was in their pockets.

[Andy]

Damn.

[Jimmy]

And they went three to it because I was still bleeding.

[Andy]

Oh, really?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. I mean, put the tourniquet on. In the dark, you're not putting your headlamp on.

[Andy]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jimmy]

Shooting. And so. And. And I was like, okay, it's tight, you know.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Just. You couldn't.

[Andy]

You couldn't tell until they screamed for you to stop.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. So those guys showed up and they went to work on me, and they definitely. They basically took a bunch of Curlex and other and just rammed it in the. And then tighten me up. And then those Hilo guys came back in and got me, and that was. That's emotional. And you know what, man? I got to go a few years ago to their, like, formal and tell that story because, you know, their families don't get this. They're not gonna back. And, yeah, we saved a guy, you know, and there were like. There were four dudes there that were still in that Were that on that crew that night. And it was cool to tell their families, you know, look, imagine the worst night of your life, and you're gonna fucking bleed to death and die. And you're in a place so far from home, and you don't have any doubt that these are coming to get you.

[Andy]

The best.

[Jimmy]

They're the best.

[Andy]

They're the best.

[Jimmy]

And I mean, we get all. I mean, I say we, you know, shooters, operators, man. I think those dudes have bigger. Like, I've been on the headset with them when we're getting shot at and I have to take it off because they're so chill.

[Andy]

I'm like, yeah, I don't like it at all.

[Jimmy]

I think that was an rpg. Oh, no, no, no.

[Andy]

Yeah, Yeah, I don't like it at all.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Can we get some level of emotional response from you? Autonomous robots, they're just. They're just like.

[Jimmy]

And flying a helicopter isn't like an easy. I'm not. I've never flown one, but it's not the.

[Andy]

It's not the hardest thing in the world, but it's. It's not easy, if that makes sense. It's complicated for sure. And that's without being shot at.

[Jimmy]

Right.

[Andy]

And not being at night on nods where you have limited depth perception and, you know, you got to move your head around. Did you ever think about just smoking those dudes from the AC130 because we.

[Jimmy]

Had to get close, you know, I felt like we were looking for somebody.

[Andy]

Oh, yeah, I forgot that Mr. Bergdahl might have been out there. All right. See, probably better you made the call.

[Jimmy]

Well, I don't know now.

[Andy]

I forgot in this story. Well, if you knew he wasn't there, I'd be like, hey, can you fit a 105 round in between these dudes? That'd be amazing. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And I think the gunship could have easily done that. I. I was really there. A lot happened on that op, and there was a lot of that went down afterwards between, like, there were some people that accused others of war crimes and things like that. So there's a lot of things that were loose in there. But the two guys that covered ground and stopped me from bleeding to death didn't get anything. Not a thank you. I mean, from me. Yeah, they didn't get a. Like, that's covering open ground in a gunfight and saving somebody's life's pretty. Like, that's a. That's at least worth something. They didn't get anything.

[Andy]

I mean, it's kind of the. The point of some of those shiny things that at the end of the day, hopefully your kids care about them.

[Jimmy]

Right? Or they get you a little money somewhere or something. But I. You know, we were talking about metals and stuff earlier and even going back to the Red Wing, stuff like metals get handed out and why. And, you know, so even that System that I looked at as a kid, right? Like, I. This for sure. Like, guys covered open ground in a gunfight to stop me from bleeding to death. Call it what you want, man. Those guys didn't do it because they kind of thought I was okay. They. I was one of their crew. They loved me. They came and did it. I'd do it for them. I saw it. I saw those guys on that helicopter who I wouldn't recognize in the chow hall. You know what I mean? Like, I'd see him at night, you know?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And those didn't bat an eye. I saw that. But I also saw the truth, that the system itself is still human, and it's up. And you got to be careful about the way you judge yourself against those things.

[Andy]

Do you ever wonder if the guys on the hilos just look back at us like, God, you guys are morons?

[Jimmy]

Yes. I don't think. I don't think that, like, they don't want to hurt our feelings, but they're like, you guys could have chose other things to do. You know?

[Andy]

You're like, God, why do you guys keep asking us to land right here?

[Jimmy]

Do we really have to do this?

[Andy]

Yeah, they would do it, too. All right, so how'd you end up in a rubber room?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. So the. The meds and the isolation. Right. I was embarrassed. I. I was embarrassed for a lot of reasons. I think the biggest one was that I didn't realize how important my vocation was to me.

[Andy]

Why is that embarrassing?

[Jimmy]

Because I wanted to be independent. I didn't want to have to rely on any other group of people or to. To feel okay about myself. I felt like I had kind of lied to myself and that I really did love what I was doing, and I really did love those dudes. And I really didn't know what the. I was going to do with myself anymore, because I didn't really think there was anything I could do, and I honestly didn't think there was anything that was just worth a doing. I felt like what we were doing was about the most important in the world.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

At the time.

[Andy]

So when you got your journey home from there, so you're in Afghanistan, you probably went Bagram. Did you go then? Bagram, Germany, Germany, home.

[Jimmy]

That's where I got the quilt. Yeah. And then Germany home. Yep.

[Andy]

And did you. Did you think there was a chance you would be able to do the job again, or were you being told that, like. Definitely not.

[Jimmy]

I was told that I wouldn't be able to do things the way I Used to. And that means, like, I wasn't going to be able to run.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

Which, I mean, I kind of can now. But it's not very pretty. Of course, it never was.

[Andy]

But running promotes cowardice. It's the best thing about getting shot, I think. Truth is, you don't have to run.

[Jimmy]

Truth is, though, there's guys. I could have. Yeah, I could have continued with it, but there was something in there that broke away and I needed to kind of get away from it.

[Andy]

When you got back to vb, when you talk about the isolation, were you self isolating?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Was it at home or. How were you. How are you going about this?

[Jimmy]

Because I was fucked up. So I was off. I was getting. I kept having surgeries after surgery, after surgery. Like it was a pretty big deal. They had to fly me to Arizona. Some really nice private citizens helped me go to the Mayo Clinic.

[Andy]

What. And is that because there were issues with previous surgeries or was it just.

[Jimmy]

It was the complexity of the nerve damage.

[Andy]

Okay. Because like you said, your femur. Where did you get it? High on the leg then.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, right over. Right above my knee. And it. I think I have some pictures of the X rays that are pretty good.

[Andy]

But I thought you were going to say the injury. I was going to say, go yourself.

[Jimmy]

No, no. Thank God. There's none of that.

[Andy]

But Michel is a sensitive young man. He can't see things like this. He's still working on getting used to anime, so.

[Jimmy]

That's awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I think.

[Andy]

Were you going into work at all or were you just hanging out at your house?

[Jimmy]

I was avoiding. I hung out at the house because guys were still deployed.

[Andy]

I was gonna. So you're describing the exact situation when I came home, too.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Was anybody from work checking on you? Yeah, that I didn't have.

[Jimmy]

Really?

[Andy]

Let me tell you, not safe.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, it isn't.

[Andy]

Well, you have no. Like, what do you.

[Jimmy]

Especially after I tried to go batshit. That's when everybody was checking on me.

[Andy]

After you tried to go B. Jimmy, you went batshit.

[Jimmy]

I did. I don't half ass things. Yeah, no, I definitely did.

[Andy]

Okay, so you're isolated. At least people are checking on you from work. I'm gonna hypothesize that you were probably putting on a good face for them.

[Jimmy]

But 100.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Started at the hospital. Jay Redmond came to my house and I didn't know who the fuck he was. And he walks in. Yeah, I'm on drugs. I'm like, what the fuck's wrong with your Face. He goes, I got shot in the face. I'm like, oh, oh, I'm sorry. And he's like, listen, man. He goes, look at. He didn't give a fuck about. He was. It was so bad. He. There was no. He's like, look, there's no manual for how you take care of your family and yourself after you get wounded. So I've been taking notes and here's a notebook. I just wrote it for you. And I'm like, holy, dude. Right? Like, that dude's got it going on, you know, and he and his wife came and talked to my wife, you know, wife to wife. Like, hey, these are the things you're gonna need to worry about. This is something, you know, like, that kind of shit was.

[Andy]

And correct me if I'm wrong, he was not at the command, right?

[Jimmy]

No, no, he was. Later, after he was wounded, he was there. They. They had him doing some stuff at the command. Yeah.

[Andy]

But cool. That he still went out of his way to do it.

[Jimmy]

And I don't think I was the only person that he did that with. Like.

[Andy]

No, that place is kind of a wood chipper, man.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Like, there it's. Again, there's a cost to that job. We were for sure not. I. I don't even put myself in this category, but there were people there. Like, the number of combat deployments they've done and the. That they were doing, they were planning to. Very high stakes game of craps.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Some of the guys did some very big things over a very long time. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. Yeah.

[Andy]

I hope they can survive those things.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, me too.

[Andy]

I think we have mutual friends. We could talk offline. Like, they don't interface with society as well anymore.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

So again, I have a lot of, like, driving for me. I'll think about, you know, at what cost? At what cost?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I think I try to think about what it was about all of it that I really. Well, that really drove me. And so, you know, finding the bullies, wanting respect. But there was something about being in a group of people that have that kind of drive, regardless of what it's for, that I felt like I was in a. Like on a. Like I was living at a frequency that was pretty rare.

[Andy]

You were. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And actually. Actually the. That's the same at Yale.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. You have to go through a lot to get there. So there's a vetting process, and once you're there, there's some expectation.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And. And it's very similar.

[Andy]

I think one of the hardest things for the guys to recognize is that you will never get back to that frequency, regardless of what you do when you get out. When you hang it up, you might find a different frequency. I just don't know how you could possibly tune it back to that. I don't think it's possible.

[Jimmy]

I was intellectually lazy. I felt as though the situation existed because of the way I perceive it and that these. That this big organization created this system and boom, boom, boom, we all got kind of funneled in there. And I didn't have the courage to say to myself, you're now responsible for making that frequency. Like, that's your fucking job. I wanted somebody to do that for me.

[Andy]

Yeah, I don't know if courage is the right word, because you're talking about this now through the lens of time, in the moment. I don't think it's. It's not a. I mean, you're a courageous person. I have an understanding of your military background and the things that you were involved with. You're a courageous person. This episode is brought to you by Brunt. One of the cool things about working with brands is that they'll send you some of their product now. They sent me a pair of their boots. They sent me the Omen. I'm here to tell you it's summer in Montana. I'm wearing flip flops under the table right now. It's just not boot weather. But as I mentioned on the last ad read I did, these might become my aviation footwear. They're the laceless type of boot. And for a while, I looked at people just slipping them on and off. It didn't make sense. I tried these things on, and of course, they're way more comfortable, way more functional than I would have ever thought. And I should have just jumped on the train years ago, but I didn't. I just sat to the side and judged. Brunt has an amazing line of boots. And if you work in an occupation where you need to protect your feet, I highly recommend that you check them out. They're comfortable, out of the box. They're going to meet the workplace and workforce requirements of your job. Maybe you have an escalating level of protection that you need. Don't worry, they have you sorted. You can pick and choose and find that level of protection, durability, and toughness that you're looking for for your job. Oh, and by the way, they'll let you try them on the job site just to make sure that they're working out for you. And if they don't guess what? Send them back. Brunt was tired of the workwear brands out there cutting corners. You work too hard to be stuck in uncomfortable boots that don't hold up, so they built something better. Boots that are insanely comfortable and built for any job site. For a limited time. Listeners of the show are going to get $10 off at Brunt. When you use the code cleared hot at checkout. Just head over to bruntworkwear.com use the code cleared hot and you're going to be good to go. And after your order, they' ask you where you heard about Brunt. Please do me a favor and tell them it was from the show. The website again, bruntworkware.com and the link is down in the show notes. Back to the show. You maybe just weren't ready to tell your. You know what I mean? What you're saying for sure.

[Jimmy]

It's the only reason I say that, though, is because I want the who's out there listening right now that's going through some to be courageous. Even though they think they're. That they need to do whatever it is they're doing to isolate or whatever. Like. Like break out of that. Don't keep letting yourself get pounded.

[Andy]

Have the courage because it might lead to a rubber room, which. How did you end up in one.

[Jimmy]

Of those rubber rooms? Actually pretty cool.

[Andy]

I've never been in one, but I feel like I'm gonna disagree with you on this point.

[Jimmy]

I mean, you can't really do anything to get hurt. You can flips and I feel like.

[Andy]

The boredom would be really, really shitty.

[Jimmy]

It's not the boredom. It's the only thing you have is you. Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

How did you get put in there?

[Jimmy]

I told. Well, I stuck a gun in my mouth.

[Andy]

And what led up to that?

[Jimmy]

I was really doing a lot of meds and drinking, washing them down with stoles strong. And the wife and I were not getting along because I was a. And she's the only one that was exposed to it because I wouldn't expose it to anybody else because I didn't want them to think I was a pussy. She already knew I was right. I. We were fighting. I was at a place where I didn't feel like I was contributing. You know, I often tell this story when I got to Seal Team eight, actually, yeah, it was a green team. I can't remember. Anyway, older Vietnam dudes like, look, man, in life, you're one of two things. You're either an asset or you're a liability. You're either bringing something to the team, to your family, your church, your school, whatever, or you're making it harder for the people who are actually doing that. That. Right. So in my mind, that's pretty cut and dried. It's also very simplistic. But I thought, I am no longer an asset. In fact, I'm a liability because I'm breathing, taking oxygen away from other people. I'm a drunk.

[Andy]

Jesus, dude.

[Jimmy]

I'm.

[Andy]

I am breathing and therefore taking oxygen from other people.

[Jimmy]

It was pretty devastating. I was pretty down on the old self, so take away the hope.

[Andy]

And I felt like a quitter. It's one of the most dangerous things about our old job.

[Jimmy]

I did quit in puts, and then I went back.

[Andy]

Yeah, no, I mean, the. What would be your biggest fear in a group of your peers? What is the equity that we have? Toughness.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

If you quit, it's currency. Yeah, it's currency. If you quit, it is as bad as it can be. It keeps people in relationships they shouldn't be in. It keeps people isolating when they shouldn't be because it has been ingrained in our head. And this is not the fault of the culture. This is just something I wish somebody way smarter than me could figure out. What are the costs of constantly having this mentality that you will quit at no cost when there are things in life that you need to quit on?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Like apply that same never quit mentality to an alcoholic. So just double down. Like, we just go.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

You know, like, it'll take care of itself. Or pills or an addiction or mental health issues. Never quit. Never ask for, like. Yeah, where could that lead? It's going to lead you to. To. With a gun in your mouth.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, we create these ideas of what we're supposed to be. Right. And then we're also told what we're supposed to be. Sometimes we agree with it or we don't, I think. I mean, I'm 58 and, oh, dude.

[Andy]

You'Re gonna die so soon.

[Jimmy]

Dude. Being I'm in class, we're reading Don Quixote, and the kids are like, oh, he's in his. He's almost dead. I'm like, shut the up, guys.

[Andy]

Yeah, they're actually. They're pretty accurate.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. So, like, you don't. Again, hindsight, you know, all those things. But. And how do you say to a young guy, like, believe me, these kids, the ROTC kids or whatever, like, hey, I want to go to buds, you know, I'm like, you're A idiot. I'm going to send you pictures of my X rays.

[Andy]

Would you have listened to them, though?

[Jimmy]

No, no, no. And. And I'm. But what I've really tried to do is give them the full picture.

[Andy]

That's. I think all you can do. None of my kids ever expressed an interest in the military or anything I did in the military for that matter. It is awesome. I am resoundingly the most boring person my kids have ever met. I think maybe two or three times my kids have asked me about anything in the military. I don't bring it up. It just fucking is what it is. And it was a fear of mine that one of my two boys would be interested. And I. Because there's one of two ways you could try, like, no, you're not gonna do this and this is why. Or I'm gonna let you make your own choice. But here is at least every piece of information I can give you that I think is fair. Making the decision for them impossible. Because depending on the kid, they might just do the exact opposite of what you asked them to do anyway. But the best I could do would be educate them. Thankfully, they. I don't actually say it's not thankfully. It would have been. I don't know if either my boys would have been necessarily suited for that job, but I wouldn't have stood in their way if they wanted to pursue it.

[Jimmy]

I definitely didn't want my kids involved.

[Andy]

Yeah. What if they had come to you and said they wanted to though?

[Jimmy]

Okay.

[Andy]

Yeah. You wouldn't stand in their way. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

I did not want that for him. I didn't want them to be in the military at all.

[Andy]

Yeah. We also wouldn't be the people that we are if it wasn't for our military service.

[Jimmy]

A thousand percent. No.

[Andy]

But it's like walking on a razor blade.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Only every day. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like.

[Andy]

The work.

[Jimmy]

I just say we.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

The work we've done post. That is more valuable than the work we did during. Because I've had kids ask me that after talks, after I've given speeches.

[Andy]

What do you mean by the work?

[Jimmy]

So, like talking about things. Talking about my. For me telling my story about how I was. Substance abuse and self. You know, loathing and suicidal and hospitals and, you know, and I get up and tell those stories a lot to cops. Cause cops are like, they're 10 behind. They're like 10 years behind the military on mental health stuff, which is wild.

[Andy]

Cause they. You want to talk about a job that can't turn it off and they also serve where they live. Yeah, we got to like, hey, we're going over to Oceana, get on a bird stop somewhere, probably get shit faced and then continue on our way.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, like I don't get to see like we went out and did horrible fucking shit and then we all went and slept in a shithole with each other.

[Andy]

But you didn't have to drive by it every day your way to the.

[Jimmy]

Gas station or hey, honey, how was school? Yeah, yeah, no, those guys have it definitely hard.

[Andy]

I think the work is different. The work we did, in my opinion, was tactical. It had relevance and important importance where we were. But I think talking about the experiences and what can come from it is more strategic. So they're both impactful and I think they're both essential. But I think that strategic work and being honest and open about it can impact more people. Because, dude, all we ever did, we were like a rung on the tactical ladder. I'm sorry. Even at a tier one command, I was never consulted with anything at an operational or strategic level ever. And I'm glad that they didn't because my answer probably would have sucked. You know, like, that just wasn't my job. Maybe we're like three rungs up on that tactical ladder, but that work needed to be done. But I don't know if it impacted anything other than the geography that we were in, the strategic stuff. The message, talking honestly about your experiences from that and the things that have happened from that. I mean, especially on mediums like this. Dude, it's wild. You hit upload and I get emails from people. That's so cool that I, I'm like, what? You never have any idea. I don't even think that's possible in the job we used to have. So they're different, but both important.

[Jimmy]

Isn't it cool though? Like I look at some like, you know, the, the coffee place and like there's a certain, you know, flavor to that that, that touches on the military stuff.

[Andy]

But.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, but it, but it all comes to the conversation, the reality of it, and I think that's a good pairing. Yeah, right. That makes sense.

[Andy]

Yeah, I think both are important. Don't think you're going to get out of telling me how you ended up in a rubber room.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So first off, did they trick you into it? No, because that would have been amazing. Sir, Come in here, we're gonna have lunch. And they just really cool.

[Jimmy]

So I gun in my mouth, wife comes out. So I went out in the driveway by the garbage cans. Because I didn't. I knew that she would fucking haunt me and.

[Andy]

Hold on.

[Jimmy]

If I shot myself in the kitchen, it would make a mess and she would haunt me. So I went out by the trash cans.

[Andy]

Hold on. That also is gonna make a mess, and your neighbors are gonna have to deal with that.

[Jimmy]

But she won't have to clean it out of the house. She can still use the kitchen.

[Andy]

You could have at least gotten in the garbage can, you selfish bastard.

[Jimmy]

I was hurt. I just got in the lid.

[Andy]

Close the lid. I mean, God, you just didn't think this through.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. She comes out, snatches the gun. Now I'm like, I am the biggest fucking piece of shit that's ever fucked. I can't even kill myself now. I know how to use a gun. I was just standing there crying my eyes out. She goes in the house.

[Andy]

Did you have a route in the chamber?

[Jimmy]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

Do you think you did that because you wanted her to come out and snatch the gun?

[Jimmy]

I didn't know what she would do.

[Andy]

Did you know that she was probably gonna see you, though, out there?

[Jimmy]

Probably, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So she comes out, takes the gun.

[Andy]

Away, leaves you say anything to you?

[Jimmy]

No, she was crying. She was scared to death.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

She ran in the house with the gun, locked the door. I could hear on the phone. She called a command, and they said, you need to call the cops and you need to tell them who your husband is. And so those. I heard that. I'm like, well, that's good, because I like violence. And these are gonna get here.

[Andy]

Stretching out your hammies.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm gonna play chill. And then when they get close, I'm gonna go after them and go after a gun. And when I do that, they have to shoot me. And I'm like. And that. That'll. That was my plan. Dude. I'm sitting.

[Andy]

Let me ask you this. In your mind, was that a rational plan?

[Jimmy]

Oh, it was the plan.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So in that moment, such an irrational thought process was actually rational to you?

[Jimmy]

Well, I was picturing it. I was visualizing.

[Andy]

Giddy up.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So I'm sitting on the stoop. My wife's not coming out. I'm sitting on the stoop on my front porch. And I knew there'd been a shooting that day at one of the parks in Norfolk. I live in Norfolk. And they roll up. The car rolls up, and I'm like, nice. So they both get out, and they both. When they get out, they're fucking pros. One guy keeps his eye on me and the other guy kind of looks at. And as they start walking up, they start talking to me like, hey, man, you know? And next thing I know, we're talking about baseball and John Kanza, Doc Khanza shows up with a guy called the dragon tamer George. And they. They're like, look, man, this is what you need to do. I'm like, I'll go there. I'll kill every in. Yeah. So I show up, they take me to the emergency room. You know, Jose Hanau, I think he was on. He was on duty that night in the emergency room. He's actually one of my heroes. I love that guy. He came from Colombia, came to the States, was an enlisted SEAL and went on to be a doctor. And he was there. And the person I spoke of earlier, who committed suicide not too long ago, was there and they just kept talking to me until I was calm. And they took me upstairs and put me in some purple pajamas. They had to watch me take a shit. It. It was awesome.

[Andy]

I do that for fun sometimes. That's not that weird.

[Jimmy]

It was awesome. And then you find that the adults are now in charge of the meds. Can't touch booze. So you're going through some and you're coming down off of that stuff.

[Andy]

Are you literally in a rubber room at this point too? No, it was, er. Still.

[Jimmy]

This was. No, it was the fifth floor. So it was like a.

[Andy]

You were. You were in processed, essentially.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. The rubber room thing didn't happen until much later, really. Yeah. Down. And I went to a civilian place and they helped me out, but the civilian place was actually where I think I needed to be because, you know, we keep hearing this veterans, you know, it's a special trauma's trauma, man.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

I was in that civilian hospital and I heard people talk about shit that they didn't volunteer for. Yeah, that was fucking brutal. And it's never good to compare tragedies.

[Andy]

No, but we volunteered for a pretty specific type of trauma.

[Jimmy]

Exactly. And we kind of knew that it was, you know, something that could occur.

[Andy]

Post 911 for sure.

[Jimmy]

Yes. The people that I met in the. In the civilian psych hospital didn't have any inkling that they were going to get raped by their uncles when they were 11 years old on Christmas Eve. Talk about triggers. Hey, Merry Christmas, you know? Right. And when that woman talked about that, I saw physically how it changed her. She, like, started walking upright, chin was up. She wasn't gonna let that shit ruin the Rest of her life. Right. She had some courage, and that was an example to me. So for me, this tough guy, right, to see a young woman who had had such horrors, you know, come across her path, didn't have my background, didn't have my training, didn't have. But she was not gonna fucking stop fighting for to have a fucking life. She was gonna let it define her. And I thought that was super good for me, the rebel room part wasn't. I wasn't there that long.

[Andy]

But how did you get put in there and why?

[Jimmy]

Well, I threatened some people.

[Andy]

Were they cops?

[Jimmy]

No. Did I tell you the story where I was in the hospital and I thought I was in North Korea being held captive and I threatened to kill everybody in the room?

[Andy]

No, but I absolutely want you to tell me that story. I feel like that was medication based in some way.

[Jimmy]

It was lack of sleep.

[Andy]

Yeah. I just opened this, too, so hold on. You can have this one.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, no, I'm good. I'm good.

[Andy]

You sure? You're going through water like you've never had it in your life, you camel.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. How you doing back there?

[Andy]

Yeah. So you're in North Korea.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

First off, if you ever start a sentence with, have I told you the story about. I'm going to say, yes, these are rhetorical.

[Jimmy]

So. So I'm in the hospital.

[Andy]

This shortly after getting shot.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Right. Just like a week of being home, back in D.C. and I wake up and I look over and there are people in the room. Nurses, corpsmen, they're in there, but to me, they're captors. And I'm in North Korea. And this thing, I had an external fixator on my leg, was part of the contraption that they were keeping me captive with. So I look over and I go, I don't know who you fuckers are, but I'm gonna kill all of you. And I reached. I reached down to grab my. I reached down to grab my leg because the external fixators. I grabbed the external fixators and I pick my leg up and I start getting ready to throw it out. And this corpsman, a young kid in there, he's probably 18 years old, he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He goes, listen, if I can get your wife up here, will you believe you're not being held captive? I'm like, yeah, motherfucker, sure. I sit back, 20 minutes later, here she comes. God damn it. What the fuck is going on? Changed everything.

[Andy]

Dude, you would have nuked your leg.

[Jimmy]

Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah.

[Andy]

Did you have any other visits to Foreign countries that you thought you were captors or you were a captive in.

[Jimmy]

I don't know why North Korea either. I don't know why North Korea.

[Andy]

I don't know.

[Jimmy]

But you know, when you got that amount of drugs running through your system.

[Andy]

How long you been married?

[Jimmy]

24 years.

[Andy]

How did your wife stay on this ride with you?

[Jimmy]

She's insane. I don't know, man.

[Andy]

You better do a real good job on Valentine's Day and birthdays and Christmases.

[Jimmy]

You think? Yeah, yeah, I think.

[Andy]

Dude.

[Jimmy]

One of the things that is important to me at this point anyway is like. Like I talked to some of my friends who weren't in the military and people who would be like, oh, you were as fucking bad. Badass, you know? Okay. But I'm just now starting to have a decent relationship with my children. I put my wife. I've been married three times and it's not cause I'm a great guy, you know what I mean? I put the people around me through a fucking. You know. So is it all that cool?

[Andy]

You know, I wish it was as cool as people thought it was. It's not like the movies, it's not like the books. I don'. What size screen you see it on. It's. It is way cooler than they could ever think.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And so much not in the other direction at the same time.

[Jimmy]

I tell you who the really impressive guys were to me were the guys who did what we did and were good fathers and good husbands. And that's impressive. That's. I don't know where those guys got that, you know, I don't know where that came from him. But I really respect those guys. I remember like my team chief when I was first in red, like, he would. We're in Arizona and I would ride with him and he would mail his wife a letter every day or at least every other day postcard, something. He was like, that was a good example. Of course I didn't take it, but.

[Andy]

Yeah, well, I think it depends on who you are coming in.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But. But I also think exposure to that world, it can either make you the best version of yourself because you have such a greater level of appreciation, or you could allow it to express the worst versions of yourself. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how.

[Jimmy]

You all on the same day.

[Andy]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you. Your thoughts on the time that we spent overseas. And I don't know how you describe to people that you can go from absolutely tears of laughter to tears of sadness within a Blink of an eye on the same target, repeat that over how many times that person is there or how many years or how many deployments. But it's also the simplest, most beautiful, purposeful thing that you've ever done. Most fulfilling ever. It.

[Jimmy]

It's pure.

[Andy]

I think it made me a better version of who I was. And there's. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's definitely some negative aspects of it. One, I have a jaded sense of humanity, for sure. I have a really hard time trusting people just because I've seen what people can do at a level that most haven't. And I bet you most of first responders are probably like that. So that's not unique to our job. But, I mean, dude, we're lucky to be able to have a chance to repair a relationship with our kids or. Now, like, when my children, they come to me and they'll ask me for advice, and I don't know if there's anything I'm more proud of than that in my life. You can fucking take my bird and mail that shit to anybody who wants it. When my kids are in their early 20s and they're coming to me and seeking out my advice and they want to spend time with me, you can fucking have all the rest of that stuff.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But I have a deeper appreciation for it because of what you're talking about. Like, I'm. How do you explain to somebody going into a house and killing a father and in the next moment trying to comfort a child that's crying fucking good luck?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, probably the child of that guy.

[Andy]

You just fucking shot. Yeah. Like, how do you explain that to people? The range of emotions? I mean, to a degree, I guess people could say you're an autonomous robot, but I had never felt like an autonomous robot. I mean, that shit. Both of those things are different expressions of humanity. Not that I have a deep understanding of it at all, but I don't know, man. Looking back on it, I've been out for 13 years now. Looking back on it, I think it made me a better version of who I am.

[Jimmy]

I think some of the things I learned there are helping me now.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. But I was definitely a. I wasn't interested in any family or. I didn't care. Like, I just wanted to deploy.

[Andy]

I don't think that's abnormal, though, either. I think that's sad. Yeah, well, everybody goes through the phases of their own life in their own time. Right. Again, you know, comparison is the thief of joy. It's. You know, some people Aren't ready for it.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, for sure. I actually had a really good social worker. She was a veteran. And she told me she was a black lady. She told me one day she goes, you know, Jimmy, just so you know, man, you scare black people. I'm like, what? You know, I shave my head, all these tattoos. She's like, look, man, I just need you to know. I'm like, what? I look like a white supremacist? She goes, mm. I'm like, okay, okay.

[Andy]

How do I tone that down in the appropriate attire? I could see that with you.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she was really amaz. She said to me, look, man, cuz I was like, my family, you know, I fail. She's like, you can't give people you don't have. You can't just pull things like that out of your ass.

[Andy]

You don't get the poor from the empty cup.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Like, it just doesn't happen. So. And I think like you. Like you've mentioned, you know, if you go down this. The list of the Spartans and you know, know, and guys like, you know, been some things in our pasts that are. We're not exactly set up for success in that realm anyway. You know what I mean? Like, most of us, you know, you know, when we really started to see how up people's families were was when a lot of guys started getting killed and their families would come and their wives are arguing with their mother in law and like, you see the. And that. And then you're like, oh, man. Man, we're all like this, you know.

[Andy]

You ever been at a funeral where they're trying to hide the girlfriend from the wife?

[Jimmy]

Maybe? Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

I'll take things I never thought I'd have to deal with for 500. Alex.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah, man.

[Andy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy]

Where do we go from here?

[Andy]

You know what? I never. I didn't realize how selfish I was when I was in. I didn't realize how much I was torturing specifically my parents with their worry and concern.

[Jimmy]

Really.

[Andy]

No, I didn't think about it. And my children were very young when I got out. I did my last deployment in 2010, so Riley would have been. They were all sub double digits, which I think might have been a little bit easier. My daughter was still in a crib when I left the last time. She has no memory of it, but. But dude, the burden of us constantly going back and forth and people were. I didn't pay any attention to it. And now even just the worry I have about my own kids, of them Just navigating daily life. I just. I'm like, dad, I'm gonna get you a pretty good Father's Day gift this year. You know, that was my bad. My bad. I never thought about it.

[Jimmy]

It's funny. I talk to my kids like, I sent them. I called. I have two boys and a girl, and I call them boys. I call them the. In Spite of Brothers. And. And I sent him a thing. I'm like, look, man, I. I worry about you guys because you didn't exactly have a great example, you know, as a father. And, you know, you're in that position now, and I'm working. They're like, ah, take it easy on yourself, dad. We got it figured out. You know what I mean? They're kind to me.

[Andy]

I'm gonna say, what do you. What was their response to that? I mean, there's the way we. If you're anything like me, I focus heavily on my failures, and I. And I don't spend a lot of time on my successes. And it's easy to present.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Or when you see in the mirror a jaded perspective of what other people see. It's dangerous, the stories we tell ourselves. And I struggle with this still, but, you know, your kids might have a different perception.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I think they do. I think they do. I mean, the fact that they allow me in their life at all. I mean, after I got hurt, seriously, I was out of my mind. I said, listen, I'm a worthless fuck. You guys don't want to have anything to do with me.

[Andy]

Me.

[Jimmy]

Don't just count me out of your life.

[Andy]

You actually verbalize that?

[Jimmy]

Yes.

[Andy]

It's tough. How old were they at the time?

[Jimmy]

High school.

[Andy]

Okay, Jimmy. They might have had a rough day that day. All right. You might have that one up, so.

[Jimmy]

But that's the great thing, right? Like, because I go down the. I this up, I that up. But if I keep in that, if I stay in that world.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Which is easy because there's plenty of material. Right. I can't be an asset to anybody if I'm. That's like. Depression is a selfish thing.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Like, oh, I'm so up. I'm so. Come on.

[Andy]

You know, Give me an example of somebody, though, who you think has only been an asset their entire existence.

[Jimmy]

My dogs. Except I'm cleaning up the poo.

[Andy]

I was gonna say, I was just about to wholeheartedly agree with you, except our dog is shit on my bed. And that was a liability. And it was. It was a juicy one. I don't Know what he got into. And it's a miniature dachshund. So it. I was actually.

[Jimmy]

Wasn't a lot of damage.

[Andy]

It was a tremendous amount of damage. I was actually questioning if he had any internal organs left over after it because he. That little son of a. I let him out. But when he gets diarrhea, he will just shit all over the house. But he'll make sure that I am watching him do it. He's just like, yeah.

[Jimmy]

Sick little bastard.

[Andy]

So there's some little bits of like. But he is the kindest, most loving thing ever.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Putting. Dude, life isn't binary. No asset or liability. You want to talk about living a horrible and horrendous life of self judgment.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Nobody can be an asset 100% of the time.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And it's probably impossible to be a liability 100% of the time. There's a lot of gray area in between those things. Two things, man.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. That's the gray areas where it's at. Yeah, man.

[Andy]

I don't know. I'm still struggling to figure my own out.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I live more time, though, if I. If I were to objectively look at how I consider myself to be. If I were to put myself. Okay. Asset liability. And we have gray area in between that. Oh, man. I try my best to move the needle towards asset every day, but, dude, it's probably somewhere in between. You know, it's. It's gonna land in the gray area.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Even on, like, my best days where, like, I made maybe make a good decision or do something that was helpful for somebody, there's still a remainder of the 23 hours and 59 minutes where I'm probably not direct. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I just don't think it's possible. It's an uphill battle mentally.

[Jimmy]

I think that's true. But I also think it's good to have that attitude to a degree.

[Andy]

Which one?

[Jimmy]

The one where I need to keep driving for sure. But I don't need to drive myself to the point where I'm ruining my relationships and hurting my health and that kind of.

[Andy]

That's where I'm saying the danger of coming from a community where it was all based on your. In unwillingness or inability to quit.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

It'll break you over time. I've watched it happen.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a sad. But we kind of do it to ourselves, you know?

[Andy]

Oh, it's. It's voluntary.

[Jimmy]

One of the guys I really have a lot of respect for is a retired master chief. And you Know him. But he said to me, man, he goes, I, I, When I look back now, I keep asking myself, why did I keep going? Why did I keep going? Why? You know, in my class I. The first book I had him read was For Whom the Bell Tolls. Cuz it, it's got a lot of different takes. People are involved in that war from different, you know, perspectives. I'll, I'll wait till we talk about the Yale stuff.

[Andy]

Sorry, I was actually just going to ask you. So first off, because you're teaching at Yale now. Yeah, nerd.

[Jimmy]

I graduated in May of 24 and I was teaching in January of 25.

[Andy]

How did you end up at Yale?

[Jimmy]

So cool, man. This is some funny fuss who you had on recently?

[Andy]

He is so cool.

[Jimmy]

He said he was at a, he was at a conference somewhere and he ran into a professor from Yale. And the professor said, hey, I want to learn how to, I want to go skydiving. He's like, yeah, come to Virginia. He called me because that's. I like to jump and I'm always out there with my cameras talking. And so we went for a jump and I was like, okay, this guy's old professor, you know. No, he's a young dude, he's like in his 40s and he's real good athlete and he was great. He did, he was fun. He wasn't scared in the air. He was solid. And then he later messaged me, said, hey man, why don't you come up to Yale and give a talk? And I was like, all right. I've never been to Yale, right?

[Andy]

What do you want you to talk about?

[Jimmy]

My story. So after we met, he started getting on YouTube and looking at things. So he, I went up. Nobody came to my. A couple kids came to my talk, but some of the local law enforcement people did. And that was really cool. And then I went to dinner with a guy who's now kind of my boss, names Jim Levinson. And he's the guy who, he's the dean of the Jackson School of Global affairs at Yale, which pretty big deal. And we went to dinner and he asked me, hey, what's that say? And I said, well, you know, my favorite poet is Pablo Neruda. And, and in his banquet speech when he won the Nobel Prize for literature in 71, he said, through blood and darkness, poetry is written. Poetry should be written. And this Jim Levinson looked at me and he said, you know, you should try out for this program we have here. It's called the Eli Whitney Student Program. It's for non traditional students like you. And he claims that I told him to fuck off, which I'm capable of.

[Andy]

But I do remember that's a coin toss.

[Jimmy]

I do remember all that.

[Andy]

So you are the definition of a non traditional student.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, indeed. So. So I'm like, look, man, I. I dropped out of high school and joined the military. The day I turned 17, I said, I've never taken an SAT. My grade point average when I dropped out was in the high ones.

[Andy]

Strong.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I. I've never been a student. Like, I've taken some courses online, and it was just stupid. He's like, no, no, this is a different thing. He's like, they're gonna look at your life counts. I'm like, all right, whatever. I just laugh. And the next day, Zach sent me the link to the program, the application. I was like, oh, yeah, this is great. And we just talk banter back and forth from time to time. And then I think, that wasn't. That was at the end of 2018. So 2019, January, February, ish. I get on the computer, I'm like, yeah, it, man. What's the worst thing that can happen, you know? So I fill the application out, and it takes me about 45 minutes. I don't know anything about applying to college. It seems pretty cut and dry. So I. I text Zach Cooper. Is his name Zach Cooper? Professor Cooper? And I said, hey, man, I just want you to know I submitted my application. He goes, what? What? Did you do it? I said, yeah. He goes, how long did it take you? I said, about 45 minutes. Boom. He calls me. He's like, jimmy, did you really, like, did you do both essays? I said, yeah. And he goes, and it only took you 45 minutes to do the whole thing?

[Andy]

Yes. You never heard of Chat GPT?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, no, it didn't exist.

[Andy]

I'm joking.

[Jimmy]

So. But besides, you can tell when people.

[Andy]

Use it for sure. It's very. I would describe it as soulless.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

It's devoid of character.

[Jimmy]

Yes. So basically, Jimmy, people spend thousands of dollars to get their kids help with those essays because they're so important. I'm like. Like, didn't seem that hard to me. Pretty simple question, you know, can you change your mind or something? You know, something along those lines. He's like, well, hey, do me a favor. Email the applications people and ask them if you can resubmit the essays, because it's good to have somebody look them over. Just make sure that things are, you know, good. I was like, okay. So I email Her. It's actually the woman I work part time for admissions at Yale too, to recruit veterans and non traditional students. So the woman for whom I work now, her name is Patricia Way and she's great. I said, patricia, can I resubmit? She said, no, but you could do two more. I said, okay. So I went to Professor Cooper, sent him what I had done. He sent him back, went back and forth a little bit. This stuff called grammar, punctuation, Right? Yeah, I submitted him. I'm like, okay, good, I'm done. So may comes around. No, actually this is even better. A few months later, I get interviews. And apparently if you get interviews, that's a pretty good solution sign, meaning they want to. So I have to get interviewed by a member of the admissions and then a. Another interview by a non traditional student like me. So schedule the, the meetings and then I get this thing. Hey, I gotta go get a colonoscopy. Yeah.

[Andy]

You got that from Yale?

[Jimmy]

No. Okay, so because I'm in Virginia, that.

[Andy]

Is an invasive interview.

[Jimmy]

Oh, it gets better. It gets better. So I scheduled the colonoscopy after the interviews.

[Andy]

Good.

[Jimmy]

But you have to drink the stuff the night before.

[Andy]

I've heard horror stories of this. What is it you doesn't have like a warning, like, hey, if you drink this, you better be within 60ft of a toilet.

[Jimmy]

Yes. So like, it's brutal. So yeah, I drink it. But my things aren't until later in the morning, you know.

[Andy]

Oh.

[Jimmy]

So I'm like, so the first interview is the woman from admissions. And, and I'm, you know, laptop, and I'm trying, I'm trying not to pull faces, right? Because it's a big deal, right? I'm supposed to be like squared away or what? I don't even know what the fuck they're looking for. But it's certainly not somebody that's got to take a shit. Like, he's gonna die, right? So I'm like, you know, I get through it. The next interview is right after. So I fucking. Boom. I get in it. And now I'm like standing up. Uh huh. Yeah. Huh. Yep.

[Andy]

So they think you have twitches.

[Jimmy]

So then I'm like, hey, can you give me a second? And I run into the bathroom. And then of course, you know, the exorcism and all that. And I come back out and I'm sweating. I'm like, okay, where were we? And she's like, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm good, I'm good. She's like, okay. And Then it finished, right? Yeah, but it was horror. My wife is just sitting in the corner like, Jesus Christ, you're done. You're. There's no way. So about a month later, I get an email that I'm accepted.

[Andy]

Did you have any idea of what you were going to be studying or want to study?

[Jimmy]

I definitely wanted to study the humanities, Literature, actually. My kids helped me out with that. You know, I thought philosophy and which. Yeah, but literature is just philosophy for people who were more sophisticated.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

I don't, I'm pulling that. I have no clue. I, I did. I definitely thought about literature. But the humanities, especially at Yale, is pretty broad. Right. So you, you have to take a pretty broad selection of liberal arts things. Language, you know, your math, all those things, those requirements. And then after that, it's kind of on you. So for me, the literature stuff was really. And had I. If I knew how to speak Latin or read and write it, I would probably be a classics major.

[Andy]

Really?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

How are you received by the students there?

[Jimmy]

Initially I would walk into class and like, hey, are you a tech guy? I'm like, no, I'm actually the lowest common denominator. Yeah, I am the dumbest student in this class, guaranteed. Initially they were like a little bit put off, but they were all fucking scared to death too.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And they all were like, tip top of their high school, so they're pretty competitive anyway and they're now just away from home for the first time. So we're all kind of in this, this kind of jambalaya of fear and, you know, whatever. But the second class, my second literature class, I always get everywhere early because the military fucking ruins us.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And I get there early and like three or four kids show up early and they're like, jimmy, what? You know, what's war like? Or, you know, And I. And at that point, I. We're not sitting around the CP shuckers talking. These are kids. These people very likely can end up in a, in a place where they're going to have an effect on sending other people's kids to war. Or they're in the case of the.

[Andy]

Rotc, they're draft age as well.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

If it goes that path.

[Jimmy]

Exactly. So. So I'm like, this is amateur hour's over. Like, you need to be thoughtful because what they're going to hear out of you right now is what they're going to carry because they've never met people like us. It was fucking amazing. And then they started like approaching me.

[Andy]

I was going to say, did Those initial students that first came with those questions, did that start growing?

[Jimmy]

Yes. And then on Veterans Day, a kid came up to me and gave me a card and I was like. And he was kind of shy about it. Turns out this kid was a Presidential scholar. I didn't know what that was. Two, two kids from every state are chosen annually to be a presidential scholar. He was one of them from Pennsylvania.

[Andy]

What does that even mean, though?

[Jimmy]

It means he's smart and he's a hard working kid. Anyway, Jewish kid and he, his family immigrated from Europe because of the obvious things way back. And anyway, he hands me his card and I'm like, okay. And I open it up and it's a Veterans Day card. And he had all the kids in this little. I was involved in this thing called directed studies, which is you can only do it as a first year student. And it's directed like, it's all the classics. You read the Western canon and it's fucking amazing. It was life changing.

[Andy]

Like, really.

[Jimmy]

Anyway, this kid's in there and he's like, hey, here you go. I get it. I look and all these other kids had signed, happy Veterans Day. And here I'm thinking, oh, I'm a baby killer. You know, I don't know what to think about Yale. I don't know if it's this liberal, oh my God, they're gonna hate me, you know, and there's some of that. Sure. Nobody's ever been disrespectful to me. Not one time. Never. I've, like, I was. I'm really surprised at the dialogue about universities right now. Like, it's not the thing that I've lived.

[Andy]

Well, it probably depends on the universities.

[Jimmy]

Yes, to a degree. But like, if you think that they're the enemy of the United States, that's a problem.

[Andy]

I think anybody that paints with that absolutist brush is just guaranteed to be wrong.

[Jimmy]

I agree. You know, problem is, when they're wrong and they're in position of authority, that's a big deal.

[Andy]

Yeah, yeah, it is a big deal for sure. Yeah. There's more nuance than people want to give. It's. I mean, but again, when you have 15 seconds to try to make a point on the news, and I'm not making an excuse for the things that people say or how they say it, that's what they're going to go with. Broad brush for everything.

[Jimmy]

Exactly. At any rate, that then I started doing, like, I had a core group of friends, like, and I tell veterans this a lot because Veteran success in college is about 50%. Yeah. And I think part of that is, yeah, 50% of the veterans who go after and are in. Well, this is according to the folks at service to school.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

They're a pretty good organization. They do really help a lot of folks. I think what happens is for me, I didn't want to hang out with the veterans. I'd done that. You know, I spent, I hung out with my undergraduate classmates. Now listen, I'm a fucking old man. I go home, I go to bed, I'm in bed and they're still up doing shit. But like for classes or studying or things like that, I learned from them. I mean, man, these kids got to Yale, they know how to take a test, you know what I mean? And like those were things that I didn't know how to do. And I think if veterans did more of that, moved out of that comfort zone of the veteran, you know, we have our own acronyms, our own, the way we communicate, dick measuring, you know, all of those things. If you like, if you're just like one of the regular students and none of that shit matters. It's an amazing release from it and you can, especially in a university, I think.

[Andy]

And this, what I'm about to say, will risk pissing people off. I think most veterans could serve to do that in every aspect of their lives.

[Jimmy]

I agree 100%.

[Andy]

And that is not to say that their service, I mean, and that's the problem. People hear that like fuck you, you know, it should be front and center. And if that's how you want to live your life, live your life.

[Jimmy]

100%.

[Andy]

But I have had the experience that you're talking about. If you can, it will be part of who you are for the rest of your life. But if you can shelve it for a bit and maybe don't leave with it, put it the third tier, whatever it may be. The experiences you have, I think are pretty goddamn powerful.

[Jimmy]

I agree.

[Andy]

Or you can keep talking with the same people that you know and I'm sorry the world is going to pass you by.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. And that's. I mean some people don't care about that, which.

[Andy]

Yeah. You know, and I'm not here, I'm not one to tell people how to live their life. I'm just saying that there are other ways that you can do it. Some people get so stuck in that self licking ice cream cone loop, which we probably all did to a degree.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, I'm glad I didn't. Yeah, I honestly, you know, the Education thing is significant. And I don't think that it's, oh, I went to Yale, so it's only significant. No, there's great schools everywhere and people do amazing things at all of them. Like, sometimes there's things I don't agree with. You know, I think it's a great. And you know what? The truth is, they fucking need veterans. They need people who have placed themselves second, who have put something above themselves, their individual self. Colleges want that. They need it. And they. And the voices that we bring, I think, you know, like, there's a young woman who is. She was in an intel person, sergeant major actually. And she's. I think she's in a graduate program now. But like, young women approach her and talk about things that she's endured, not just as a woman, but like, as a woman in the military. Yeah, there's all kinds of ways that veterans can help people that you wouldn't think about ways like that conversation in my philosophy class. No, I didn't worry about dying. I worried about making a mistake. And, you know, that's not how normal people think.

[Andy]

How did your professor respond to that answer?

[Jimmy]

He was shocked, really. And he actually, he was surprised. And then later, the same guy, I love him. His name's David Charles. He was a professor of philosophy at Two First Names.

[Andy]

Probably a serial killer.

[Jimmy]

He's probably.

[Andy]

Never trust a man with two first names.

[Jimmy]

He's like one of the best people in the world on Aristotle. Aristotle. But he taught for 30 years at Oxford and then they make you leave. So then he came to Yale and I think he's going to be teaching at Stanford this year.

[Andy]

Jesus.

[Jimmy]

But he came to one of my speeches that year, and afterwards he pulled me aside, he says, look, James. And he says that British accent. So I feel pretty sophisticated.

[Andy]

Does he have an ascot?

[Jimmy]

No, no, no, no.

[Andy]

Does he wear like one of those golfing caps?

[Jimmy]

You would never know.

[Andy]

Tortoise shell glasses.

[Jimmy]

He's like, old dude wears white tennis shoes. He's like a belly jumper at Eloy.

[Andy]

Oh, fuck, why don't you.

[Jimmy]

Right? I'm one of them now. I'm fucking. Nice shoes.

[Andy]

Totally.

[Jimmy]

Anyway, he said to me, james, look, man, good leaders are bridge builders. And he said, right now we need some bridge builders. And you're in a very good position to do that because of where you came from. He said, when I first got to Oxford, the guys that were my instructors had been in World War II and they were not going to fucking put up with the same old, same old. So the National Institutes of health, the way the education system works. Those guys were deep, elbow deep in that stuff all the time, making their country better. They led. And he's like, you have that opportunity, and I. Bridge building is definitely on my list. And it's so cool because just remember.

[Andy]

The saying, you can build a thousand bridges, and I'll let you fill in the rest.

[Jimmy]

You sent that don't be gay earlier when I said, I'm coming, Andy, and.

[Andy]

I'm building a thousand bridges. You suck one dick. All right. You're Michael.

[Jimmy]

So do not want to be Michael. Yeah. I just did a speech in London for an event that Yale's doing, and he. I invited him to come, and I got to tell that story. His wife was sitting there in front of all those people. It made me really happy, man.

[Andy]

What do you think that he thought you were gonna say from that first question that he asked you? What do you think he was expecting.

[Jimmy]

As somebody who had an expectation?

[Andy]

Well, he. I bet he did. I mean, somebody who was that deep into philosophy, especially a guy like Aristotle.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Because if you surprised him, you certainly said something that he wasn't expecting.

[Jimmy]

That's true. I don't know. Maybe he thought some Chest beater. Valent valor.

[Andy]

Before I step off into the abyss of war, I'd considered and accepted my own fate. Be like, hey, just so you guys know, we're actually not that smart. We're kind of like monkeys with machine guns.

[Jimmy]

Yes, exactly. It's not that hard. That's the one thing I. When I tell kids and I've told them in my class, I'm like, it's not hard to kill people. People.

[Andy]

It isn't.

[Jimmy]

What's hard is what's after.

[Andy]

Yeah. I have described it in very similar ways. I don't know about your experience. I never had much time to make the decision. It was action, reaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Many times I was just like, oh, completely scared to shocked. You know, Thankfully, I could see at night, and they couldn't.

[Jimmy]

Exactly.

[Andy]

If I'm being totally honest.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah. That's saved a lot of us.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

But they were also stupid at times, too. They were really arrogant. Especially the. Especially the guys in Afghanistan. They were way more arrogant. Arrogant. I felt.

[Andy]

Can you imagine fighting drones like they're doing in Ukraine? Did you ever even consider that you would be. You have your DJI drone.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Did you ever consider the thoughts of, like.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And of course they're on fire. Have you seen these pictures of Ukraine where there's this fiber cable going across the fields.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Dude. I never once thought of a drone threat from that regard.

[Jimmy]

No.

[Andy]

Can you fathom the head space that takes up things? Because, you know, you can hear them coming, too.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And then. Oh, my God, dude.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. We had a woman come speak to my class who's from Ukraine. She's a professor, but her mother's in the Donbass part that Russia's presently occupying. And she told the story, and this is great, because these kids don't know people who've been at war. She's sitting there talking, and she's saying, you know, my mother, she won't go outside on the nice days now. Now. Which is the only joy she had was going out into her backyard little teeny garden and just messing with her plants. But she can't go outside on nice days because of the drones.

[Andy]

Yeah, they can see better.

[Jimmy]

And she's like. And the kids are like, what? Like the drones. She's like, yeah, they drop bombs on people and they do all kinds of crazy stuff so she won't go out of the house. The only time she can leave her house is when it's raining and nasty. And the kids are like, you know.

[Andy]

Imagine what we did in comparison to people who are in trenches with gear that is centuries behind what we had. Listening to the. A swarm of drones coming. If that doesn't scramble your eggs. Yeah, you are.

[Jimmy]

It's brutal.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Unbelievable. I never considered that. Then you watch these Chinese displays. Michael, I want you to pull this up. These displays where they're like dragons and stuff.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Just imagine all that being armed, and they're coming at you. Can you find one of those, Michael? You know what I'm talking about. Have you seen one of those? Holy cow. I mean, this is honestly worth watching. It's so unbelievable what they can do.

[Jimmy]

There's some people at. At mit, in those labs that are. That are saying we should be scared.

[Andy]

I mean, come on.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Are you kidding me? Now, of course, the move would be. You light it up like this. So the people you're fighting think it is a dragon coming, and then they're all locked up. No, it's like, psychologically.

[Jimmy]

So there's.

[Andy]

So there are. So they're armed, and then there's a pterodactyl coming in the distance. Yeah. I mean, it would be even.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Oh, my God.

[Jimmy]

Actually. Yeah. Put a little style to it. Yeah. It'd be horrible. You know, that's funny, too. Like, when I look at the kids, like, the young people.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

That want to go do the fight. I'm like, what kind of war will they be fighting? Like, what's that gonna be like?

[Andy]

Have you seen modern special operations now they're integrating drones and they have, like, flip down, like the first. What do they call it? Fpv? Stuff.

[Jimmy]

Stuff.

[Andy]

It's a part of the battlefield, man. Like, I missed the whole ATAX system and, like, the foot. And there's. And there's a pro and con to that stuff. Like, you can overwhelm yourself with information as, you know. Right. Like, you're so heads down. You actually probably should be heads up.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

At some point in time.

[Jimmy]

I never liked that stuff. I always did it off GPS and then kind of feel.

[Andy]

Yeah, but we're also dinosaurs.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

I heard guys say that about optics on their guns, too, so. Until they started getting their asses whipping. Iron sights have been great for centuries. Yeah. But I'm going to beat you in this.

[Andy]

You want to go to the range here? My Mark 1 motto, aim point. Point is just gonna smoke your ass.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy]

On your MP5 handlebar mustache and a fireproof flight suit.

[Jimmy]

Dive socks.

[Andy]

Yeah. Okay. So you graduate, and now you're back. Nisha. Now you're gonna teach. When did you make the decision that you wanted to stay and actually teach?

[Jimmy]

So they asked me probably about three quarters of the way through. What, you know, what would you really like? And I said, I'd really like to teach a class. And I think, you know, there's not. There aren't people like us teaching classes anywhere. And so I'm not a professor. I. I only have an undergraduate degree, so I can only teach undergraduates.

[Andy]

And I get bachelor's or a master's.

[Jimmy]

Bachelor's.

[Andy]

Okay. And I, too, never went past high school. Well, actually, I am now in this room the only one who didn't go past high school. But. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Well, I'm here to tell you, if you want to go to Yale, I can help.

[Andy]

Help you.

[Jimmy]

And you would be shocked at how much, you know, how much I spent.

[Andy]

I don't know if you know this, but I live in Montana.

[Jimmy]

Well, but you can go.

[Andy]

I would have to go there, right? No high school diploma.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I'm not against that. I actually don't know what I would want to study. I am not.

[Jimmy]

That's okay. You don't have to say. You can just show up and take. And then be like, oh, I'll take that. And for guys like us, because we're older, we get seven years.

[Andy]

Seven years to get a bachelor's and you know what?

[Jimmy]

I had a lot of credits. And you know how many I used? None. The classes were fucking. I would take my neighbors because they open it to the public. I took an Italian film class, was fucking amazing. And him and his wife. My wife, we would go watch these fucking Italian films together, like you can.

[Andy]

What would you suggest I study?

[Jimmy]

I think what you ought to do is do that directed studies, things that I did.

[Andy]

And that'll help.

[Jimmy]

Help you.

[Andy]

What if I don't like where they direct me?

[Jimmy]

Well, it's really the Western canon, so you start out with the Iliad, the Odyssey, right?

[Andy]

You understand I'm dumb, right?

[Jimmy]

Like these.

[Andy]

These books have mean.

[Jimmy]

I said the same thing, dude. I said the same thing. I tried to read that.

[Andy]

But here's the difference. You've known me for probably 20 years at this point. You know what I'm saying is true.

[Jimmy]

And it was true for me as well. But again, because of where we come from, we have demonstrated the capacity to not let that kind of us up. But I'm telling you, it was hard. I've actually written essays about how cognitive behavioral therapy is basically getting an education.

[Andy]

Huh.

[Jimmy]

I think that.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And I think for veterans, it's incredibly important. And I think the cognitive behavioral therapy.

[Andy]

Or getting an education, post, all of it. Okay.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. And. But it is therapy on its own. Like, if you didn't want to go to therapy and you were in directed studies, let's say, right? So I had a breakdown. Crying moment in my teacher's office. Lecturer. The woman who helped me, she was my director of undergraduate studies about reading about Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau, right? So post Enlightenment, these guys were like, rousseau is basically. This is my take. My professors will laugh at me. Rousseau was a hippie, right? He's like, if we just let everybody chill, everybody will get along and everything will be great. It's when we start making these little governments that we get evil and start killing each other, right? And then Hobbs is like, life is short and brutal. You need a fucking strong hand over the top of you to keep from fucking up. You just shut your mouth and let him make the choices. And then there's Locke, who's kind of somewhere in the middle. And that's kind of who the people who started this country kind of modeled themselves after him. But I'm like, I'll tell you what the fucking original state of man is. We are savages. This is all lofty you guys are talking about. But we're. We'll kill each other, rape, steal people's children. Like we're, you know. And actually went into class and remember old school with Will Ferrell? No, the one before that one with Sam Kinison, where he was the Vietnam vet. Rodney Dangerfield was in it. But anyway, the Vietnam vet, Sam Kinison was comedian. He loses his. I had one of those moments. I was like, listen, Iraq. I remember going into a house. I'm sure this happened to you. The first time it happened, it was so freaky. It was generally they were in the out houses, right? So there's like a main house and there's like an outer house. We go in there and nobody passed this shit down to us. There's a dude in there running at us and he's got down syndrome and he's chained to the fucking floor by. In his ankle. And there's a bucket of water and a bucket to. Or piss in and a blanket and a concrete floor. And the kid, you know, the kids in the class are like, yeah. I'm like, well, it gets better. And then I tell a story about where we went to a target to get some dudes that we just saw fucking smoke. A bunch of people on a school bus. Americans and Iraqis. And when we get to the house, we ask him, why didn't guys fight us? They're like, yeah, we don't get paid to fight you. Then we discover the 11 year old little boy that they just raped. They had a good time after their fucking shooting party and they came home and raped this kid. He's got blood running down his legs. Some of us actually went through that kind of shit as children and we wanted to murder everybody every. And thank God we had a good leader there. And he was like, hey, but then what do we do with this kid, right? So we're like, we need to help this kid. We're gonna take these guys back with us. We should have just killed them, but we're gonna take them back. We'll just bring the kid back and he can go. And they're like, no, we're not child protective services.

[Andy]

True story.

[Jimmy]

So I'm like, what, what do you do with that? That.

[Andy]

Where's that in those books?

[Jimmy]

Yeah, like where does that go? And, and then the kids are sitting. And then God bless her, my, my professor, she's like, well then, you know. But I had kids. This is the way these kids are though. Afterwards they're like, jimmy, is there like, is there like an organization I can help that like is helping those people in Iraq? And I'm like, no, there isn't Can I piss? Can I take a piss?

[Andy]

Yes. All right. So you scared the living out of your professor.

[Jimmy]

But she was kind. She was very kind. She'd been at it a long time.

[Andy]

And how did she transition from the story that you were telling to anything else she might have wanted to cover that day?

[Jimmy]

She went into the hippie Rousseau. She's like. Well, Rousseau would argue, Jimmy, that what you saw was because of the way we've organized ourselves. And he believes that if you take us all the way back into. Before all this stuff happened, we were actually kind and we worked. We were good with each other. I don't believe that to be true based on my experiences, but, you know, resources are what they are, and I.

[Andy]

Think humans have been fighting humans since the inception of humans.

[Jimmy]

I agree.

[Andy]

Yeah. What is the title of the course you teach?

[Jimmy]

It's called the Impact of War on Its Willing and Unwilling Participants.

[Andy]

Jesus. How did you come up with that?

[Jimmy]

A really smart professor helped me, but what I wanted to do was talk about war, and I wanted to cover it from all the angles I could. So, you know, for whom the bell tolls, right? There's partisans, there's soldiers, there's fucking guys who come from Montana to go blow up bridges because they believe in the cause. So there's all those different things. So I had good. Good stories, some good poetry, and I had. I had help from a really good professor. She was actually my dean. She's from Kentucky. And they have, like. When kids from rural parts of the country go to Yale, they put them in a little group, and she's like the head of the group because she's got that Kentucky accent, and she has to kind of translate for the kids sometimes. You know, it's funny, man, but she's been incredibly helpful. I took a couple of her classes, and she was my dean. She put. She. She's amazing. So she's helped me with the syllabus and then helped me correct papers. And I do a pretty good job with it. But, yeah, I'm not. But I want to make sure that I'm doing. I'm doing them right, you know?

[Andy]

I mean, given what you went through before the military, the journey of what you went through when you were in. Now being at Yale, talking about war, what do you. What do you make of the 20 years this country spent at war? What are your thoughts being away from it, Looking back on it now?

[Jimmy]

I am. I am. I am saddened that it seems to me that we didn't learn much. So I went on When President Biden said, hey, we're gonna pull out Afghanistan, the guys from. I'm pretty good friends with Anderson Cooper and a lot like Joe, like, he's the same fucking guy.

[Andy]

Those guys at that level, they just are who they are. And if there's a camera rolling, it's not. It's not.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. They had me come on and talk about it and I, I was pretty emotional about all of it. I was like, look, man, I mean, you guys are going to sit here and go back and forth about the politics of it because that's what you guys do. But the reality is, you know, I've got dead friends whose kids are just now getting out of the service academies and they're going to serve and they deserve better decisions.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So I think we need to do an after action. And it can't be done by Congress because they can't agree on a factor and it can't be done by think tanks because they're paid to have find certain things. It's got to be done in academia. And I didn't say Yale. I didn't say anything in particular. But motherfucker, three days later I get a call from the same guy, Jim Levinson. He's like, jimmy, we're going to do that course. I'm like, what? He goes, yeah, I'm going to hire an ambassador. And he went through a few ambassadors and asked my opinion and I gave it to him. And they hired Ambassador Ann Patterson person. She was the ambassador to first El Salvador, then Colombia during the big drug stuff. And then she was the ambassador when I got. Shut up. She was the ambassador to Pakistan. She left there and went to be the ambassador to Egypt during the real heavy kind of Muslim Brotherhood stuff.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And then was promoted to be like the top diplomat. So she was doing those trips with like Carrie into Syria and stuff like that. So she was there for all of it. She saw all of them. National security, like, like she was involved in all of it. She had us reenact some of those meetings and where it became clear that. And man, we had at least a dozen generals and ambassadors. Chatham House rules. So you can't use names, you can't associate people. It was shocking.

[Andy]

Really.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

What did the.

[Jimmy]

It was shocking.

[Andy]

What did the after action? What were the wave tops?

[Jimmy]

So nothing is more important than presidential politics. So for example, we talked about the surge 2009. Right around time I got shot up someone McCrystal. That's the fucking meeting that we reenacted. So we had a person, we had to draw names out of a hat. Person play vice president. Person play President Obama. Person play Secretary Clinton. Person play General Petraeus. Certain play General McChrystal. Crystal. The woman who played Petraeus was a Muslim girl, Pashtun. Her family's from Pakistan. And she was fucking awesome. She was a. I really asked. Fought for her to be in the class. She was actually a chemistry. A chemical engineering major who also got a Russian speaking certificate.

[Andy]

Jesus.

[Jimmy]

And she's in her off time. She was at the hospital helping the Afghan refugees get what they needed. Anyway, she played Petraeus. It was great. But in that, you could see it in that. And I was like, why are we doing this? It was clear. If it became clear the surge happened because Hillary Clinton was going to run for president and Obama was going to help. Right. So if we were attacked, which there had already been a couple of attacks, the guy with the propane tanks in Times Square and all that, then the Republicans would be able to say, well, the generals told you we needed to. Right. That's why that decision was made. I had a two star general look us right in the face and say, if you think that anything is more important than presidential politics in these decisions, you are naive. Sad.

[Andy]

If they were open and honest about that, recruiting for the military would fucking plummet.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

It was shocking, that whole, you know, the withdrawal. God, it is so deeply intertwined. And I mean, Biden owns the decision to continue with the shitty timing and all of that. Like whoever's in the seat makes the decision. You get to own that. But anybody who thinks that that didn't involve every administration before that, not having the fucking foresight to realize that this is gonna have to end and we need to make some changes and we need to think about that. You can trace that shit all the way back. And again, that does not remove the responsibility from the guy who's in the seat who's like, you know, this plan isn't working. Let's fucking change the plan. I don't care. I agreed upon a date. Date, you know?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. The report we did, he was the one that got it right from the get go. He got in fights with people. He's like, these people don't give a. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. He was the one guy that called it. He's like, they're not. You know, he did call it right. Although at the end you're exactly right. It's way too. It's. How many? Four different presidents.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Took us 20 years and four different presidents to turn The. To beat the Taliban back into the Taliban.

[Andy]

Yeah. But then don't forget the arming that we did as well.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

We gave them flying Blackhawks and driving armored personnel carriers down, you know, Kabul shortly after we left.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. And that's also available to anybody who wants to buy it because they don't have a fucking. They don't have any industry. There's.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And they're not recognized internationally. I actually, I actually had a meeting with Taliban for that class. I arranged it because nobody else wanted to have their phone. I don't care if they see that. I like to look at midget porn. I don't care. So I talked to the head speaker for the Taliban. He was in Kabul. They had to fucking run a little generator. It was in the winter. It was right before Christmas. And I was really surprised. The ambassador said, yeah, I bet. I know his talking points. I was surprised. He said, you know, the United States just didn't understand that you got involved in a civil war. I'm like, well, we were attacked from your country. He goes, yes. And we tried to surrender. And I didn't know that they tried to surrender. They tried to surrender. And Rumsfeld said you.

[Andy]

Yeah, that was the unacceptable optic to them.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. I mean, you were there right after that. I mean, how was that with cars? I like, what. What was your take? I mean, you saw firsthand like, the, the, like the real deal behind the scenes. Like, what was that like?

[Andy]

It was like exactly what you think it was. Like, the US Military is good at breaking things. We're not good at nation building.

[Jimmy]

No. Why the.

[Andy]

I have an idea. Let's fly a dude in who lives in the U.S. yes. He had ties to Afghanistan. Afghanistan. And we're going to force on you a system that you don't understand.

[Jimmy]

Right.

[Andy]

And it's supposed to hold up like, what are you talking about?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Absent being propped up by the US Government. I mean, come on.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. That's really what we came. You know what? The kids decided about the title of our report. And it's pretty amazing. We're the only ones that have done it. Nobody's. Nobody wants. It was called the 20 year wars, meaning every year was in. I asked him that. I'm like, doesn't this seem ridiculous to you? Meaning the. There's a new colonel every 18 months. There's a new ambassador. I'm like, doesn't this seem ridiculous to you that this is. This is. These, these jobs are really only billeted for a certain small amount of time because these People are working their way up to leadership positions. But what does that say about our commitment to the. What's the continuity? That there is none. It's a new. Oh, I blink and, and then General Alize, who got out on the last plane, he was the head of the Afghan special operations, got shrapnel on his face. We brought him up and he talked. He's an Uber driver now. Yeah, right. Whose family is, you know, away from him and he can't get him here and they're safe. But I remember him saying, look, he goes, what the war did for Afghanistan is, it made everybody a good politician. We figured out all the Americans will just throw money here. They'll, you know, know. It was a, it was very sad, Andy. And I, I, I really, really worry like that those same choices will be made again, you know.

[Andy]

Do you think we made a difference at all?

[Jimmy]

You know, it's really funny you say that, because I was fucking not about that. And one of the young women who came to speak to us, whose husband's a big time British politician, she ran an ngo. There's there and still does, actually, she still goes over there and she said, you know, you could be negative, she said, but for 20 years, women had health care and education and there was, there were things built and those little lights, you don't know how long it'll take for them to grow into something different. So I'm like, thank you. But no, I was pretty negative about all of it. All of it.

[Andy]

Well, again, like, life's just not binary, you know, that the conversation around the global war on terror in that 20 years, it's not binary. Because that pocket, that is a truthful pocket of a situation on the ground, that did change. I don't have any idea what the impacts of that are. I mean, is it worth the blood, sweat, tears, you know, that went into that? I don't know. Remains to be seen. Needs to be judged by somebody way smarter than myself. But it's tough not to be negative about it, especially in a lot of. That, I think, is the optic of how we left too. Like 20 years. And that's. And that was the best exit we could do after 20 years.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Thinking about your dead friends, you know?

[Andy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy]

That's the hard part for me. Yeah, it's a really hard, hard thing. And I like me, I think about Lou, I think about guys, you know.

[Andy]

That Jonas, the oic, who's my bud squad.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

You know, I knew most everybody on that bird. That was my troop when I was There, I mean, obviously I had been gone for years and even if I had stayed, who knows? Cuz obviously guys hop around a little bit. But yeah, I knew most of the people on that bird really well.

[Jimmy]

It's horrible.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

I remember getting the call because I used to talk about. I used to have arguments a lot with people about using helicopters because Red Wings and I like to jump and it's quite. But.

[Andy]

Yeah, but you're good at it, right? You know as well as I do that the average currency and proficiency. Yeah, it's not. It. It would be the most as an insertion method. Don't get me wrong. Because I was on the first team of guys who were developing the TTPS for over there and it was dope.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

But I also had thousands of jumps at the time. I loved it. I had all the air quality and we would still fuck up. I remember one of the first jumps we did, we were out in Colorado and I'm coming into land and my God, there's fucking boulders everywhere. And then they started moving. I'm like, oh shit, I'm in the middle of a cowherd.

[Jimmy]

Oh shit, man.

[Andy]

Just surfed it in. We were kilometers from where we were supposed to land. Farmers coming out pissed, didn't know that we were there. We're like stuffing our shit in bags trying to get out of the private property so he doesn't get a fucking.

[Jimmy]

Salt rock in the ass.

[Andy]

Yeah, I get it. But it's so dangerous. It's so dangerous. But I agree with you. It's probably the best way to access inaccessible terrain. But you have to be a really small unit.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Or at least the initial and then set it up.

[Andy]

I was gonna say I think the move is small unit, bring in the school bus.

[Jimmy]

That's kind of how it worked.

[Andy]

Yeah, I think that would be the best goal. At least you're gonna. You'd have a chance at the squirters that way. How long are you gonna teach El for?

[Jimmy]

So I just signed a three year deal.

[Andy]

And do you get paid for this?

[Jimmy]

I do not much.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

So I have my pension and I have, you know, what they pay me there. It's.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

But it's also a good launching pad. Right. So I mean I can give a good talk. And now that I'm a guy at Yale, maybe people pay me to talk more, which is cool.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

That's easy money for me and I enjoy it and I really do feel like it does help. And if I can make money doing it, great. But I really. The the money thing, man, those kids, dude, you can't. I mean seriously, like the kids that are sitting there are. They've all busted. I mean, some of them are like old people, man. Really, like they're tired, you know, and some of them are fucking like you would never think they've worked a day in their life and they're just happy as fuck all the time. And you're like, didn't you just have to write a 30 page paper and do a two week long problem set in fucking linear linear algebra or whatever? Yeah. But it was okay. And then we went singing and you know, like, it's just. It's bizarre. They. I feel like I can. I can give them something that's gonna be worthwhile. I don't think that they can get anywhere else, honestly.

[Andy]

It would be tough too. What do you want to do when you're done teaching that there? I mean, assuming. Well, how about this? Who knows how long you'll teach there? Because I bet you're going to find it incredibly enriching and I bet the students will too. What else do you want to do? I mean, I know you still jump.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Which I don't know if you know this. You walk with a cane, so you should probably be real careful.

[Jimmy]

I jump a lot.

[Andy]

Yeah. Well, you sure? It's awesome. You know, I wish there's really not any DZ's up here, otherwise I would jump a bunch too. And it's just. It's not worth the travel for me at this point. What else do you want to do?

[Jimmy]

I probably. This has to go off. Can't be on the air because I asked permission to talk about this and.

[Andy]

I was told no pussy.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. There might be more things in the future.

[Andy]

Okay, just tell me about it off air then because that way I don't have to edit it. Yeah, no, I mean like not something you necessarily have already scheduled.

[Jimmy]

No, no.

[Andy]

But like what. What turns the wheels for you? Like if you had a bucket list, what's the. What do you got left on the top three?

[Jimmy]

I would like to keep comparing these things from the like the epic poems like the. The Iliad, the Odyssey.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

The Aeneid, Paradise Lost. And I asked one of my best professors who wrote on my first paper at Yale. He was.

[Andy]

That was the feedback. I like it.

[Jimmy]

Well on the grade.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

But he wrote. And he was the probably the most conservative person I've ever met. So people are like, oh, liberal, liberal. I've met the most conservative people ever at Yale and the most liberal for sure. And people joke and they say, oh, the political arguments at Yale are between communists and Democrats. Right. There's no. The Republicans just don't say much. They're just like, hey, whatever. Sorry. Where'd I get I got lost bucket list?

[Andy]

The epics you're talking about. You want to.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. So basically there are places in there that talk about things, things that are very similar to what we lived. And that those lessons, like going off of what Sophocles did, Those lessons can be beneficial, especially for younger people that haven't experienced that and especially for people who've never met a guy who served in the military.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Or for example, the ROTC guys. Hey, will you do this training thing? I'm like, yeah, I went and bought a bunch of Nerf guns. And I said, I called my buddies at the New Haven Police Department. I'm like, hey, man, can we use your training? He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on up. Bring them on up. So we're doing the training with him, and the cops are helping me out. And one of the kids grabs me and goes, hey, Jimmy, these guys are pretty nice. I'm like, what, you've never met a cop?

[Andy]

Oh, I'm like, I heard a lot about him. I bet.

[Jimmy]

I'm like, what? And they're like, I'm like, everybody in the classroom. And then I went to the cops. I'm like, hey, man, these kids don't know. Fuck. They've never spoken to a cop. You guys mind? And they're like, no, but they didn't know. They were getting ready to fucking listen to fucking Yale kids ask questions first. Kids like, hey, you know, it seems like everything we see on the news is negative. How do you deal with that? How does your family deal with it? And they're all like, fair question, amateur hours over. Right. And they. And it kept rolling. But that kind of thing is something that's been missing, and I want to put it there.

[Andy]

Outside of education, do you want to travel? Do you want to do stuff with your kids?

[Jimmy]

I want to make my wife happy. And I want to make my note. I have kids and grandkids.

[Andy]

Send me a note when you figure out how to do that.

[Jimmy]

Well, we were talking about that earlier. I can make her happy for a few minutes.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

At a time. But it's short lived.

[Andy]

Okay. Keep track of what works. Let's all men out here create a shared notes folder.

[Jimmy]

There's no way. Yeah.

[Andy]

Do you have a desire to do like a brick and mortar business? Does any of that stuff Turn your wheels.

[Jimmy]

I definitely would like to be in situations with different groups of people talking about things that matter.

[Andy]

Would you go back to Iraq and Afghanistan as a tourist if you had the chance?

[Jimmy]

Yes.

[Andy]

I would, too. I got asked that question recently. Had to think about it for a while.

[Jimmy]

I for sure would. I really would actually like that.

[Andy]

I think probably more towards the tail end of our life. I bet you that'll be an opportunity.

[Jimmy]

I remember when, like, John McCain and John Kerry went to Vietnam. I remember that. And they built, you know, John in between.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And they changed that relationship with Vietnam. Right. So I remember that. I remember when that went down. I don't know that I'd want to be involved in politics, but I definitely would like to be in a position where I can build bridges.

[Andy]

Just remember, a thousand bridges.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I am terrified of politics.

[Jimmy]

You should be.

[Andy]

I can't tell if the ecosystem is so utterly corrupt that it can ruin the best of us or people who like power are seeking out that type of ecosystem system.

[Jimmy]

I think it's both.

[Andy]

I do, too. I land at that. And I think it needs to be treated like a really, really powerful medication. Like ibuprofen has a maximum dosage per day.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Why can we not realize that people in that level. What's the saying? Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Why can't we realize that that is the same thing. How about this? Two terms, fuckers. How about this? You can't balance the budget.

[Jimmy]

You.

[Andy]

You're all fired.

[Jimmy]

Beat it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree 100%.

[Andy]

Oh, and by the way, no stock trading.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Anyway, here's another one. Every bill is a single issue. None of this omnibus shit.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Where like coming out about the big beautiful bill. God, I hate these fucking names.

[Jimmy]

I do, too.

[Andy]

And in there is AI regulations and selling off. People have been hitting me up about this. Selling off 250 million acres of public land. There's so much stuff in there. Like how. And people finally, Congressman and senators. Like, yeah, we actually didn't read it. Like, if you can't read the bill, which is your job to vote on, you guys are as fucked up as a football bat. And we need to do something about this. But nobody's doing anything about it.

[Jimmy]

I know. And that's the problem. And here's the deal, Andy. Like. And I brought this up to you last time we talked, but I think you're in a good position to do that. And people would argue that I.

[Andy]

To do what?

[Jimmy]

To be in a leadership position. Position. But before you vomit, let Me say this.

[Andy]

I was gonna tip you over in that chair right now.

[Jimmy]

I was just. No, I just got a message from a friend who was a. He grew up in the Central Valley of California on a ranch, went to military academy and then became an F18 pilot. I, I went for a ride in the back of his plane. Then he got out, went to Harvard Business School, bought some stuff. Pretty successful. He's a partner at McKinsey now. We were texting back and forth, and he's like, Like, I cannot understand why there is no representation for the average American. Like, last night we had the news that a socialist won the Democratic nomination for the mayor of New York.

[Andy]

Openly socialist.

[Jimmy]

Openly. With a lot of other things that should, you know, and then we have, you know, what we have in charge right now? Like, there's no, like the regular people. There's no representation.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

And who, where does that come from? And, and, and, But I have talked to people who are in politics, and they're like, don't. It will. The people will try to destroy you?

[Andy]

I think so. And I think, I think what happens is that people who go in there with the best of intentions, they realize it seems as if, and this is from the outside, that you either play along party lines or you get absolutely nothing accomplished.

[Jimmy]

That's the way I feel about it.

[Andy]

So I think they lie to themselves, and they say if I just put my toes in the water, at least that way I can get some stuff done. But before you know it, you're drowning.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I'm pretty good friends with Mark Kelly, and he seems, like, immune from it. It's really cool to see how he goes about it. He doesn't get rattled. I think there's something to having a guy who's flown the space shuttle a few times. I, I was there teaching him to skydive, and he's such a fucking astronaut. He's like, we're going through all these, you know, the. If. What this picture. If you're, if you got.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

You know, he's like, he goes, why don't you guys just have a thing? If I'm descending faster than a certain rate, it just automatically fixes it. And I'm like, well, that's, you know, skydivers are fucking drunks and drug addicts and they don't have any money. You worked for NASA.

[Andy]

Go invent that, buddy.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, exactly. He seems immune to it, and he doesn't get.

[Andy]

Give him time. But again, that's my thing, Right? Even water can kill you. If you take too much, but you need it to survive.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I mean, almost everything has a maximum dosage. And I don't know that much about Nancy Pelosi other than the fact that she's 176 years old.

[Jimmy]

Right. Right.

[Andy]

What the fuck?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Like, there is no way you can play in that pond for that long. And that's like this, you know, the net worth stuff and the stock, like, all of that stuff aside, Shockingly enough, her husband is an amazing stock trader. I'm sure there's no correlation there whatsoever. Why do we tolerate that?

[Jimmy]

That's the thing.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Why isn't it illegal? You know, why isn't it like, you know. Yeah.

[Andy]

Because we haven't made it illegal.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Well, I think if you think that the political folks would dip their toes.

[Andy]

I think that's what they tell themselves. I have to play a little bit along party lines to get something done, and I think it just ends up being a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more.

[Jimmy]

But I think the constituents are the same. We kind of have to do this if we want this.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So I think there's. Yeah. At some point, you know, there's got to be some give and take. And politics is something else. That kid who gave me the Veterans Day card, the kid I said was a presidential scholar, he ran for state, state, state office in Pennsylvania, and he is a Jewish liberal kid in essentially Red Hat ville. So I told him, dude, I'd ride a skateboard to Alaska to help you because I love him. I may not agree with everything that he says or thinks, but he's the kind of person that is going to do the right thing.

[Andy]

I don't agree with everything I say, you know?

[Jimmy]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Nobody's just. And I went. And he didn't win, but he won more votes than any Democrat has ever done in that area. But the whole time I'm looking at the issues with him, he's like, look, for example, Pennsylvania was given a significant amount of federal money to put in broadband access. And the guy who is the guy he's running against the insurgent just didn't even say he wanted anything.

[Andy]

I think you meant incumbent. Yeah, that was your old job.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, the incumbent. The insurance insurgent, my friend was the insurgent. Yeah.

[Andy]

Anyway, let's start with I. Very different meanings.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. I'm thinking about doing a podcast at Yale called the Ivy League Insurgent.

[Andy]

As a former Navy Seal, you need to have a podcast.

[Jimmy]

Or did you I've done the book.

[Andy]

Did you even serve, bro?

[Jimmy]

I mean, like, where's your podcast?

[Andy]

It's such a bizarre medium, and I never thought I'd be. I think I'm at nine years on this now.

[Jimmy]

It's really cool.

[Andy]

It is fun. I love sitting down. Yesterday I sat down with Taylor Cavanaugh, the guy who was. Got kicked out of the SEAL teams, went over to the French Foreign Legion.

[Jimmy]

Oh, wow.

[Andy]

Came back like, what a crazy story about his life.

[Jimmy]

Oh, fuck. I bet.

[Andy]

Yeah. And you know, one of the episodes that hasn't come out yet, I sat and talked with one of the guys who was the head of the FBI Behavioral Sciences unit where they're profiling people. I had some kwamite like, wow.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy]

How awesome are serial killers, too?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

It's just insane. The people I've been introduced to. It's fantastic. But, yeah, you haven't actually been a SEAL unless you have a podcast.

[Jimmy]

Okay.

[Andy]

That's what I've been told.

[Jimmy]

I better get out of it.

[Andy]

You already did the book, so, I mean, it's like.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, yeah, get on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I tell you, man, the. The thing that's exciting. Nobody gives a. About the SEAL stuff. It's the Yale stuff that seems.

[Andy]

This seems stuff to me is cooler than the SEAL stuff.

[Jimmy]

Stuff. Yeah. It hurt less, I bet.

[Andy]

Maybe not mentally.

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Oh, dude. Man. There were some rough nights, I bet. Oh. Reading some of that stuff and like, all these. These issues that we were talking about, like, you need. You know, so Caesar, Augustus, there's the. There's the Iliad and the Odyssey. Those are. The salad guy, he's also an insurgent.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

He says, hey, we need one of those. Virgil, you're the writer. Do it. So he writes it. Virgil does it. Then on his deathbed, he's like, don't publish it. And of course, the Caesar does what the. He wants. He publishes it. And it's out there, but at the end, there's a spot where the. The hero, I guess you could call him that. He has a chance. He's getting ready to smoke this dude, and he kind of stops for a second. And the dude had killed a friend of his and taken a piece of his uniform, and he was wearing it, and when he saw it, he killed him. I used that particular thing in my senior thesis, and I went back and forth. There's all these academics. I've written about it. Is this a time. Like, this is an example. This was written for the Roman Republic, right. Like, what if he just said, hey, okay, here, I'm gonna help you out. What. Would that have made a difference difference? Would he be a. Would he. You know, and it depends on who you talk to or who you read. The, the, the professors that have studied this stuff and understand Latin and understand what the culture was like then and they argue when guy's like, no, it's. He had to kill him. He didn't have a choice. Like if he wouldn't have. He wouldn't have been the savior of Rome or whatever. It's all fiction anyway. But those types of things, when you get in, you start digging around in them and. And you've lived what you've lived, they have a different meaning. And when you can mix that up with people who don't understand any of it, it's really helpful. Like they can touch it in ways through you and vice versa, right? Yeah, it just changes the way you think about things, how you think about things. And I think that's a gift for sure. But man, it's also scary. And there were a lot of sleepless nights and there were a lot like, how the am I so stupid? Like really, you want to feel dumb? Come on, I'll put you in a class. And you're like, holy, you know, like, what the. Are these kids eating? You know?

[Andy]

It is good for them, though. I'm glad that there's people out there like that because I'm not going to change the world. But I'm glad to know that there are people out there that will.

[Jimmy]

They. Man. My favorite experience in that class, this girl looks at me second day and I. They have to apply to be in my class so I can kind of go through. I ask a specific question and they answer it. And I kind of try. What I really want to do is load it so that it's with. It's completely as broad based as possible. So I have the most progressive student on campus and the most conservative. And I want to try to. She's one of the most progressive and she's from New Jersey. And she said, jimmy, I do not support the US Military. And I'm like. And I think she was thinking maybe I was going to have a hard time with that, you know, But I'm like, okay, this is America. You can say what the fuck you. And I actually did say that. I'm like, you guys can say what you want want here, as long as you don't threaten each other and aren't disrespectful. I would ask that you try to be Kind to each other because it's going to help us have better discussions. You can say what you want in here. I don't care. You can burn me in effigy as your final project. I don't care.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

What I want is honesty. And I want us to get after it. The next class, I'd actually invited somebody from our former crew to come talk about PTSD and moral injury and that stuff, but he couldn't make it. And so I did it. Which probably shouldn't do because you want the kids to worry about you. You know, you're the professor. At any rate, I. As soon as I'm done, I sit down and I told some pretty ugly stories. My personal involvement. And that girl, same girl that told me she didn't support the mill. She said, jimmy, we see that veterans have a suicide problem. How do we know you're okay? That's the range. You see what I'm saying? Like, and I told guys friends in New Haven, I'm like, yeah, this girl in class today, she said, I don't support the US Military at all. And guys are like, I couldn't sit in a room with her. I'm like, why? Exactly. That's the problem.

[Andy]

You got to be deeper than that.

[Jimmy]

It's a problem. Yeah.

[Andy]

So outrageous option.

[Jimmy]

And then the girl looks. So there's five ROTC kids in the class with me. She turns to him, she goes, why do you guys want to serve? Where the does that conversation happen? You see, that's the gift.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

When you and I didn't. That wasn't me. I just kind of tried to create the environment.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

That. She's like, why? And then the kids. Kids, they're like, whoa. Now they're. Why do I want to serve? And that. And it was interesting to hear them talk. Oh, you know, my family, it's tradition. Or financially, it's really helpful. You know, blah, blah, blah. Like, that doesn't have. Where did. Clearly, there's at least five kids that are going to serve their country. And then there's a. Probably a few kids in this class that are going to end up in a position, maybe not necessarily a leadership position, but. But somewhere where they'll be able to touch or influence a decision about sending those guys to war. That is why that conversation is important. That's why I need to keep doing what I'm doing. I really feel strongly about it, and I think the people who asked me to do it feel that way as well.

[Andy]

That's awesome, man.

[Jimmy]

And I got really, really good Reviews, which was good. Good, because I was afraid. I have gotten some bad evals in my day, Andy.

[Andy]

As have I.

[Jimmy]

The rubber room was actually instructed instructional. When you can't do anything but just sit with yourself, first, it's hard. And then you get to a place where you're like, what do I want to do?

[Andy]

How long were you in there?

[Jimmy]

Not long. Just a day.

[Andy]

Rookie numbers.

[Jimmy]

Exactly. I mean, it's actually worse like living on a submarine, you know?

[Andy]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Jimmy]

I mean, they're gonna feed, you, know what I'm saying? Like, they're gonna, they're not gonna let you go too crazy.

[Andy]

What do you want to close it out with, man? We've been out for almost three hours.

[Jimmy]

No, I, I. I'm serious. I'm gonna press you on that. Like, Press me on what? Like, leadership stuff, man. What. What do you.

[Andy]

What are you.

[Jimmy]

There's a lot of. There's a lot of. Why don't you run for office?

[Andy]

The Office of Go Fuck Yourself is currently taking applications. I don't know.

[Jimmy]

Look, you have a platform. You've. You, you. You're not hiding anything.

[Andy]

I don't know if I'm the right. I'm, I'm not. I try to be as transparent as humanly possible. I don't know if I am the right person for it, man.

[Jimmy]

Well, there's only one way to find out.

[Andy]

What office would I get you to shut up about? Like, if can I be, like.

[Jimmy]

It's got to be national.

[Andy]

God damn it. I was going to say, like, the mayor of a town that doesn't matter.

[Jimmy]

No, no, it's got to be national. And, and is there, like, a janitorial.

[Andy]

Club I could do?

[Jimmy]

No, no. And look, there's a lot of guys from up here that have run for.

[Andy]

Office, you know, I don't know if military service necessarily qualifies you for government service.

[Jimmy]

No, I'm not saying that it does, but I think a person who has had that and then has had the experiences that you've had with the population that you've had it, like, you're not. You're an anomaly in so far as you have met. Like, you just got done talking about some of the people that you've spoken with.

[Andy]

Oh, it's wild, man. It's the best. The podcast.

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So wild.

[Jimmy]

But, but, but that, that, that look into humanity for. Because you're not up here talking about what's your favorite color, Right.

[Andy]

Sometimes, you know, depends on the guests.

[Jimmy]

But that look into real humans and sitting across the table. That's exactly where it's at. In fact, in my speech in London, I said that sitting across the table, you see each other's humanity. It makes it a lot harder for you to kill each other.

[Andy]

I am trying very hard, as I get older or to take steps outside of the optic that I know that I have to try to see things through other people's eyes because I want to understand. It doesn't mean that I agree with them, but I just want to understand what they're saying.

[Jimmy]

I also think that you've proved everything you need to prove, and I think that's. That's something that is rare in politics. I think Mark Kelly's the same way. He hasn't. He didn't need to prove shit to anybody.

[Andy]

I think it'd be pretty dope to fly the space shuttle.

[Jimmy]

I think so, too. I asked him. I've only asked him one time.

[Andy]

Oh. Actually, he didn't fly the space shuttle. What? The guy. Guy came down in a little pod. Whatever. He said he had, like, a button. It was probably, like, the Undock button. I bet that's exactly what he said.

[Jimmy]

What does it look like when you're coming back through the atmosphere? He goes, everything's on fire.

[Andy]

Yeah. You can't see anything.

[Jimmy]

Everything is.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

It's all.

[Andy]

Yeah. I feel like that's a real bumpy ride. And you're really hoping that the contractor put the thing together properly.

[Jimmy]

She had him come on your show and have him talk about when he went to pick up those bodies that. When the one fell apart across the state of Texas.

[Andy]

Well, you'll have to link me up with him because I don't have an easy day. Okay. Yeah. That's an easy one. Yeah. What do you want?

[Jimmy]

I mean, I would like to close out with this.

[Andy]

Here's the best I'll give you. I'll consider the public office thing.

[Jimmy]

I think you really should.

[Andy]

I'll lightly tell you to your face that I'm considering it.

[Jimmy]

Okay.

[Andy]

But behind the curtain, maybe not.

[Jimmy]

And I have to pitch. I have to pitch two things, but the nonprofit, I. Fortunately, I was blessed with people who are smart and know how to run it. So I've stepped away from it because of the emotional stuff it took on me. That's. I'm gonna do more with that. Those dogs go to work on behalf of Americans and communities all over the country, and they deserve to be taken care of.

[Andy]

You're talking about Spikes Canine, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy]

They deserve it, and they need it. Right? So medical, bulletproof, Vests, custom fit, little things like goggles, all the stupid things. These dogs go out and they get after it and they don't have a voice. They. They don't have an advocate. And that's what we try to do. And I'm very interested in making sure that goes really well and gets better. And I'm really keen on getting veterans into college because of the personal experience I had with it. The way it helped me reshape, actually it changed the view of the world that I had. The world was pretty dark for me. It is not so now. And being around those kids is. Makes it and seeing their man. They are like, you remember showing up to green team and like, that's what it's like.

[Andy]

It's awesome.

[Jimmy]

It is it. And. But it's about math or art or. Actually there was a veteran at the, at the art school, invited me to his final like project and I wept. He put Betadine in the paint. And once you smell Betadine in the hospital, you see where I'm going.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So there's like that art. The. The art gallery there is my church. I'm there like three times a week. Anyway, veterans would do really well there. The world needs veterans in academia and veterans need to be in academia. And if you want to go to Yale, here's the problem. Like me, I self selected out before they even. I'm like, I'm an idiot. I got. I had a poor grade point average. It doesn't matter if you. If you had a really bad grade point average, take a couple of college courses and something tough. Get good grades and send that in. It's mostly about the essays and your ability to handle all that which you already have as a veteran and.

[Andy]

Okay, when are you coming back on?

[Jimmy]

Soon.

[Andy]

I'm gonna come audit your course and give you the worst review you've ever had.

[Jimmy]

I want you to come and one half star. I want you to come speak.

[Andy]

My instructor insulted me and told me that my feelings are stupid.

[Jimmy]

All right? Sometimes Jimmy gets a little cranky.

[Andy]

I have no business speaking at Yale.

[Jimmy]

See, I said the same thing. And guess what, man? You know what? When my class was over, nobody left. Everybody stuck around. I thought the same thing, Andy. You know what? There are some really smart people at Harvard and Yale and Cornell and University of Montana, whatever. There are smart people who have spent their lives working on studying these things to become experts, experts and be able to translate that to the next generation. But there is not a lot of people who've actually done some heavy duty.

[Andy]

Yeah, I.

[Jimmy]

You are more than welcome to come, and I would actually like you to come and talk to the class.

[Andy]

Can I wear an ascot?

[Jimmy]

You can wear whatever the you want.

[Andy]

Oh, yeah, get, like, an English suit.

[Jimmy]

We had General Miller come, and he's. He's like, I want to go to a toga party. Party. And the ROTC kids are like, okay, okay. And they're like, so this fall, they're gonna hang.

[Andy]

Never take a general to a toga. Like, first off, you guys are about to learn a really important lesson. Don't hang out with the boss after hours. The entire general is the same thing as a general. All right? Like, when you achieve flag status, just go the other way. When you see the flag officer run. Yeah. Well, cool, man. I'll let you guys. What are you guys gonna do for the rest of your time in Montana? You fly tomorrow?

[Jimmy]

Yep. We're gonna go see. There's a woman who lives here who's a producer at CNN who I'm pretty good friends with. Her name is Carrie Pritcher.

[Andy]

Really?

[Jimmy]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Still a producer for cn?

[Jimmy]

Yep. She works remotely.

[Andy]

Well, I guess that she works for.

[Jimmy]

At Anderson's show.

[Andy]

Cool.

[Jimmy]

And she is awesome. And I can make that connection, too, because she's. She's a good person to know for a lot of reasons.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Jimmy]

But she lives in Whitefish. I think we're going to go over and see her, have a little dinner, and then we get up early and go home.

[Andy]

Cool, man. You got. What airline are you flying on?

[Jimmy]

Delta.

[Andy]

You're on the 5:00am flight?

[Jimmy]

Yeah. Oh, no, no. Seven. Seven. Yeah.

[Andy]

Where's your connector? Minneapolis.

[Jimmy]

Minneapolis. Yeah.

[Andy]

I was gonna say my wife, I think, is on the 5am flight. She flies as a passenger? Yes, Jimmy, as do most of us.

[Jimmy]

I thought she was. I thought she was a pilot like that.

[Andy]

No, she's a Jiu Jitsu coach.

[Jimmy]

Oh.

[Andy]

Yeah. She's a world champion Jiu Jitsu competitor.

[Jimmy]

Are you serious?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

So that's cool. It's your house. House.

[Andy]

It's awesome. I do the dishes when I'm told, so.

[Jimmy]

Cool, man.

[Andy]

Yeah. It's like, I will clean the house. Yes, ma'. Am. Yeah, no, it's awesome.

[Jimmy]

Are we done recording?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Jimmy]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads Ads, go to libsynads. Com. That's L, I B S Y N Ads Com Today.