Episode 398 - Beau Simmons - Bear Attacks, The 20 Year War, Photography of the Great American West

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cleared Hot | Episode 398 - Beau Simmons - Bear Attacks, The 20 Year War, Photography of the Great American West

Release Date: July 28, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 398 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf engages in a profound and multifaceted conversation with Beau Simmons. Beau, a seasoned photographer with a rich military background, delves into his personal experiences, including a harrowing bear attack, his work documenting the Great American West, and his impactful book, The 20 Year War, which explores the transition of veterans into civilian life. Throughout the episode, Beau shares insightful reflections on photography, mental health, and the societal impacts of social media.

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1. Beau's Personal Life and Family Challenges

The episode opens with Beau discussing his father's recent health challenges. Beau's father, who has been misdiagnosed for decades, is now facing serious health decisions.

[05:05] Beau Simmons: "My dad was, for 63 years, under the belief that he had cerebral palsy when he was born because his hands have tremors... Now he's considering brain surgery to eliminate the shakes."

Beau recounts how his father’s chronic tremors were mistakenly attributed to a minor form of cerebral palsy, leading to years of unnecessary distress. A recent neurologist confirmed that Beau's father does not have cerebral palsy but suffers from chronic tremors that could be treated with a relatively simple surgical procedure. This revelation has prompted Beau and his family to consider the surgery, highlighting the emotional and psychological burdens his father has carried.

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2. The Bear Attack: A Harrowing Experience

One of the most gripping segments of the episode is Beau's recounting of a bear attack he endured while working as a photographer on a Montana ranch. This incident underscores the unpredictable dangers of working closely with wildlife.

[18:48] Beau Simmons: "I was on the ground, trying to help free the bear, and before I knew it, he attacked me. It happened so fast—a matter of two seconds."

Beau describes how, while assisting ranchers in roping a bear to protect their livestock, he intervened by removing the bear's rope, believing it would free the animal safely. Instead, the bear turned aggressive, resulting in Beau being swiped and injured. Despite the danger, Beau emphasizes his respect for the ranchers' methods and the necessity of their work in managing wildlife.

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3. Transition to Photography of the Great American West

Beau shares his journey from fashion photography to documenting the rugged life of cowboys and the Western lifestyle. This transition was fueled by a desire to tell authentic stories and preserve the essence of a disappearing culture.

[124:03] Beau Simmons: "I want to photograph everyday people. I want to do something that's going to be bigger than myself."

He explains how building relationships with ranchers allowed him to capture the true spirit of the West. Beau's work emphasizes the hard work, resilience, and deep-rooted traditions of the cowboy community, moving away from the romanticized images often portrayed in media.

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4. The 20 Year War: Honoring Veterans

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Beau's book, The 20 Year War, which documents the lives of 71 veterans transitioning to civilian life after 9/11. Beau collaborates with his childhood friend Dan Blakely and writer Tom to bring these stories to the forefront.

[31:07] Beau Simmons: "Our goal was to honor those people. Every one of the 71 veterans is in the book. There wasn't one story or one photograph that we ditched."

Beau highlights the diverse experiences of veterans from all four branches of the military, emphasizing that each story is unique. The book aims to shed light on the personal battles veterans face when reintegrating into society, offering a positive narrative of resilience and adaptation.

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5. Reflections on Social Media and Mental Health

Both Andy and Beau delve into the pervasive influence of social media on mental health and societal divisions. They discuss the negativity bias inherent in online interactions and the challenges of maintaining genuine connections in a digital age.

[45:34] Beau Simmons: "The second we can free ourselves a little bit from that torment and understand that there's enough to go around, there's enough for all of us to win."

Beau shares his personal struggles with comparison and envy fueled by social media, especially in his photographic career. He advocates for celebrating others' successes and fostering a mindset of abundance rather than competition.

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6. Future Projects and Aspirations

Beau outlines his plans for future projects, including expanding his photography work globally and continuing to honor veterans through additional volumes of The 20 Year War.

[55:14] Beau Simmons: "If we can turn this into an exhibition, I would love to do a volume two of this book... 'Our Next Greatest Generation' could be a cool title."

He expresses a desire to travel internationally to document cowboys from different cultures, such as the gauchos of Argentina and vaqueros in Mexico, further enriching his portrayal of Western lifestyles.

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7. Closing Thoughts: Preservation and Authentic Storytelling

As the episode concludes, Beau emphasizes the importance of authentic storytelling and respectful documentation. He reflects on his own growth as a photographer and the fulfillment he derives from capturing genuine human experiences.

[126:56] Beau Simmons: "Photography is kind of one of those things where you're pushing a button. I don't want to just be a photographer that takes photos that live on a screen. I want to blow them up and put them in museums and have them become archival."

Beau's commitment to preserving the stories of cowboys and veterans underscores his dedication to meaningful art that resonates beyond the digital realm.

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Notable Quotes

• Beau Simmons [05:05]: "My dad was... considering brain surgery to eliminate the shakes."

• Beau Simmons [18:48]: "It happened so fast—a matter of two seconds."

• Beau Simmons [31:07]: "Every one of the 71 veterans is in the book. There wasn't one story or one photograph that we ditched."

• Beau Simmons [45:34]: "There's enough to go around, there's enough for all of us to win."

• Beau Simmons [55:14]: "If we can turn this into an exhibition, I would love to do a volume two of this book... 'Our Next Greatest Generation' could be a cool title."

---

Conclusion

Episode 398 of Cleared Hot offers a deep dive into Beau Simmons' life and work, highlighting his resilience in the face of personal and professional challenges. Through his photography, Beau not only captures the rugged beauty of the American West but also honors the profound stories of veterans adjusting to civilian life. His reflections on social media's impact and his aspirations for future projects provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the intersections between art, mental health, and societal change.

For those interested in Beau Simmons' work, visit his website BoSimmonsPhotography.com to explore his galleries and learn more about his upcoming projects.

Transcript

[Bo Simmons]

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[Unknown Speaker]

Sun runs north to south. West of the smoke.

[Bo Simmons]

West of the smoke.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now, Michael. Would you like a good Vaughn story that he doesn't know I'm about to tell you?

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

My father is missing a credit card.

[Bo Simmons]

That sounds about right.

[Unknown Speaker]

If you lost a credit card and you thought you knew where it was last used, what would be your move?

[Bo Simmons]

If I thought I knew it was last used?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

I would look in that place where I thought I used it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Would you go there or call him?

[Bo Simmons]

Call him.

[Unknown Speaker]

Call him.

[Bo Simmons]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why? Because time is valuable.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. I wouldn't drive down there and call him.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, my dad took the latter approach. We have him on Life360. Are you familiar with this?

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay, today's episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. What do you say we head over to their website right now to see what they have to offer? Bogo. Or buy one, get one free. Looks like the liberty roast, the honor roast, some mugs, a couple different versions of shirts. Actually, let's just shop now. Let's click the button and see what we have. We have a couple days remaining to do this, even after this goes live. So a variety of roasts, a variety of vessels to drink it out of. Enhance hats, shirts. Very cool. All right, so you can check that out on your own if you want to. Blackrifflecoffee.com this bar right here goes all the way to the left as you're looking at it. To the lightest roots being silencer. Smooth as the lightest roast. All the way to the right. The darkest murdered out. And then Blackbeard's delight is right there. Put it back in the middle. You can subscribe for a collection or not subscribe. You can shop the summer collection right here, which has got a variety of patterns that are on there. Here we are. The Coffee subscription, what you want delivered when you want shirt subscription, get delivered to your house. The new breaking designs. Whenever you want. Sticker, same thing, but with stickers. And then the ecs, the exclusive coffee subscription. An example of that. This right here. The Secret Water Society roast. I'm making this out at our lake house right now. It is delicious and delightful. Plus, the bag art is super cool. If you want to support me, do me a favor. Support the brands that have stood by me and helped me grow this thing for years. Www.BlackRiffleCoffee.com Go check him out. Back to the show. It was. He wasn't against it. We realized he doesn't bring his phone with him most places that he goes, which defeats the entire purpose of a cellular telephone. Several times in a row, he came over to the house. It was actually my wife's idea because she was thinking out loud and realized, we need to know where this fucker is. Cause he's out there just doing geriatric shit, like unsupervised.

[Bo Simmons]

Just enjoying life.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And I want him to enjoy life, but I also kind of need to know where he's at at this point. So we keep asking to put it on his phone, and he just never has it, ever.

[Bo Simmons]

And that sounds like my wife.

[Unknown Speaker]

So she finally got it on his phone. Took a look at the way he has his icons on his iPhone. Cause she was wondering why he's slow to get back from text sometimes. Well, you know the little apps you can keep in the bottom. So you.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, it's like your four main used ones.

[Unknown Speaker]

He had three. One of them was not text messaging. She found it three swipes over. So she moved that there were a litany of unread text messages.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, geez.

[Unknown Speaker]

But this morning, he just got back from a golfing trip that he's been doing for, I think, 50 years in Reno. She looks at his dot this morning, and it's at the airport because he's there trying to talk to people about finding his credit card. And nobody was there because he went in between the flight hours. And so nobody was up at the front desk. And his thing was, well, I'm looking for stuff to do anyway, so I might as well go over there.

[Bo Simmons]

That's hilarious.

[Unknown Speaker]

God damn it, man.

[Bo Simmons]

I think our. Our parents really start to amuse us at a certain age. My dad's almost 65, and he's getting.

[Unknown Speaker]

There, like, minus 78.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And he is there.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. My dad's just teetering where it's like things are getting Interesting. And the unfortunate side is, like, now it's all the health stuff.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

It's like, now it's like, oh, there's cancer, now there's this. He wants to get brain surgery. He wants to do all this stuff.

[Unknown Speaker]

He wants to get brain surgery?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So he, like, exploratory or is there something to worry? No, no, exploratory. And the reason being.

[Unknown Speaker]

What are we talking? Like, what does Musk call his thing? Start not Starling. Is the Internet neuralink?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So he. My dad was, for 63 years, 62 years, under the belief that he had cerebral palsy when he was born because his hands have tremors. So his hands shake.

[Unknown Speaker]

Did he ever run that by a medical professional?

[Bo Simmons]

He did. And people always said that. Yeah, it's because of the umbilical cord wrapped around your throat in the womb.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, like, lack of oxygen. Yep. Okay.

[Bo Simmons]

And they've developed a minor form of cerebral palsy where it's not like you're wheelchair bound, but, you know, his hands shake almost like he has, like, Alzheimer's or tremors or whatnot.

[Unknown Speaker]

Did the doctors concur with his personal assessment?

[Bo Simmons]

So he went to a recent neurologist, like, a year ago, and they were like, no, you have, like, chronic tremors. They're like, you don't have cerebral palsy, which is treatable. And they're like, there's a brain surgery that you can get where essentially what they do is they put. They drill like, an inch into your brain. They put a little probe in there, and it's a minute and a half surgery, super fast. They just drill into it, put that probe, and stitch it up. And then they put a pacemaker in your heart. And that pacemaker interacts with that device. And then when they turn it on, they turn it on full blast, and it makes one side of your body just go completely limp. And then they tone it back to your settings of your body. So what it does is when his hands are shaking, it'll immediately eliminate all shakes. And he's just at that point in his life now where he's like, you know, I've dealt with it my whole life. I'm embarrassed that I walk around and, like, can't shake hands with people because my hands shake, or if I pick up a drink, I just get embarrassed. And, you know, I've always told him, I'm like, you need to stop worrying so much about that stuff because, like, everybody loves you, like, in your family and circle, and people on the street or whoever don't care. Are Going to judge you. But if that's more of an internal psychology behind it, then you should get the surgery. And so he's. He's looking at getting that done.

[Unknown Speaker]

Isn't it amazing how much our own insecurities can get in our way? And the vast majority of people would never see the things that you're the most insecure about. Like, it would be if they noticed it. It would be passing, at best, zero judgment.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

But behind the curtain, that person is just. It's all they can think about. It sucks, man. And those handcuffs you put on yourself, too.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And it's like he has. He has the best intentions with it. You know, it's almost like. So I recently got married and. And my wife, you know, he obviously wanted to come to the wedding and, like, get to know her family. And he was like, I just don't want to, you know, be eating or see people like, my handshake and all that, or your mom having to help me eat and whatnot. And I. No one who's there is going to judge you whatsoever. But it's. It's that stuff where I'm like, he has such a big heart. And a part of me is like, if he wants to get surgery and it makes him better, then sure. And I've talked to people that have had the surgery, and they swear it's like a night and day difference, but the reality is, like, he just got diagnosed with prostate cancer, but at stage one. So he got very lucky, caught it early.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's coming for all men if you.

[Bo Simmons]

Give it enough time, for sure. And so he's gonna go get that surgery, I think in two weeks. Um, they're just gonna remove his prostate entirely, and then he gets the brain surgery, like, three weeks after that. So he's just trying to get it all done at once and then be done with it.

[Unknown Speaker]

So when you were describing that brain surgery, the only thing I could think about was the iterations they must have done leading up to this being successful.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, right.

[Unknown Speaker]

What did that look like?

[Bo Simmons]

Leaving people disabled, maybe?

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, how do they know exactly where to drill that hole? Did they just pumpkin somebody else's head and drill in different spots? And in an attempt to reduce the shakes they forgot high school would be my guess.

[Bo Simmons]

It'd be something crazy. I'm gonna move my phone.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, yeah. I also wonder if they get those drill bits from Home Depot.

[Bo Simmons]

Right. It's not like a. It's just got so many grooves on it that it just tears out flesh. I can't Imagine. I mean, there's wake for that surgery. You are. They put. They put your head in a cage.

[Unknown Speaker]

Every aspect of that.

[Bo Simmons]

So they lock your head in a cage. So it's essentially like. There's a little bar that goes on your chin. You rest your chin up against it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, of course. Michael is on it.

[Bo Simmons]

I forget the. Yeah. So that's what it is.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Dbs. That's his head right there. Yeah. So they put your head in this.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, that's a straight dewalt. That's the 110dewalt. No big deal.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. As long as it's not Ryobi dude.

[Unknown Speaker]

I can knock that out for him Right now. There's a Home Depot down the road.

[Bo Simmons]

And this is what it does, which is really interesting.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay. So there's the shakes.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep. And my dad's not that bad.

[Unknown Speaker]

And this is that inner. Whoa.

[Bo Simmons]

Look at it. It just goes away.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. You're telling me that wouldn't be 100% life changing? Absolutely would be.

[Bo Simmons]

I haven't watched this video, but I've just talked to people that have had the surgery, and they've just said it, like, changed their life.

[Unknown Speaker]

I am really glad there are people out there smarter than me. And for clarity, almost every human being is.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

So I am benefiting from them doing things I would never think of doing.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. It's. I can't imagine and, like, for me, knowing that you're awake and your head's in a cage and they want to keep track of your eye movement. They want to make sure you're awake, obviously. But someone who talked to me who got it done said it's not so much. You don't really have anxiety, like, sitting in there. It's the sound and the vibration of your skull.

[Unknown Speaker]

I am not interested in hearing them.

[Bo Simmons]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, and the doc's like, oops. I was going. That was turning counterclockwise. My bad.

[Bo Simmons]

Wrong drill bit too big.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Give me the drywall one.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So I'm like, no, I don't want to.

[Unknown Speaker]

You would feel. Can you imagine the rattling, Literally the rattling in your skull?

[Bo Simmons]

It's. I mean, I've had some stuff, but just to hear that vibration, like, in the back of your head, and then you can smell it. So you have. You go through a minute of that, and then.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's a long minute.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, it definitely is.

[Unknown Speaker]

Then you know, though, that they're poking around inside of your brain.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, he's going to like a really good doctor. And I'm sure there's like One would hope so. Yeah, exactly.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Cuz I'm like, yeah, don't go down to like Mexico and get the surgery. This is not your teeth. Like, you know, I don't even know your brain.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. I mean, maybe Mexico is not a great place for your teeth either. I'm not sure.

[Bo Simmons]

A lot of them apparently are trained in the US Because I remember growing up. So I grew up in the high desert of California, like right outside. We joke around, we call it 29 stumps. Like the Marine Corps baseball. So I grew up in the town over near Joshua Tree.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, no. Exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Just by Palm Springs.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep. And I remember growing up, you know, people that had to get like root canals or like implants, bigger surgeries that would cost thousands of dollars would go down south of Arizona across the border down there.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And would go. And it's literally you cross the border and it's like, it's almost like this random neighborhood with like built up like hospitals, eye doctors, ear doctors, dentists.

[Unknown Speaker]

60% off, probably cost wise.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep. And they're all trained in the US So they go to school in the us they go right back across the border. Make more money down there, but it saves Americans, you know, American people a lot more money to go down there and get it done.

[Unknown Speaker]

Man, your dad is going to have an interesting month.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm glad that we got the wedding over with and now he can kind of just be at home and then focus on getting that done. So she has to go.

[Unknown Speaker]

Big wedding or small?

[Bo Simmons]

We did medium. We had 105 people there.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm gonna call that big. Yeah, I don't. I mean, I have. I've been married twice. Once was at the courthouse and once. Michael, you were there. How many people would you guess were there? I honestly forget the guest list. I think it was approaching 200. Yeah, it was.

[Bo Simmons]

That's a big wedding. Pretty big.

[Unknown Speaker]

I felt so too.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

There was a cost difference between the courthouse and that one, if I'm being honest.

[Bo Simmons]

So funny enough, we. We got married in Texas. It's center. So my. Our wedding, I should say on my side was just my mom and dad. Very small family, very disconnected family. Just from like my grandmother when she passed away. You know, you kind of have cousins, aunts, uncles and all that that just naturally drift because the grandmother was the one that kind of kept all the family vacations together. And Whatnot. And we all still commun. But it was just one of those weddings where I was like, it's just me, my mom, and my dad. And Bella's family is like, 70, 80 people, so hers took up the majority. And then the rest was just, like, friends and, like, our. Our wedding party. But we got married in Texas, and when we went to get our marriage certificate, I called the courthouse or, like, the county clerk's office, like, a week prior, and they're like, yeah, come in on Wednesday, because it has to be 72 hours. You have to wait to get married after you pick up the certificate. Ours was 78 hours right after. So I was like, all right, cool. We have five. That's plenty of time. We drive from. We had a flying Austin drive two and a half hours north where we're getting married on a ranch. I went to the nearest county clerk's office in Gulf Weight, Texas, and they're closed. And there's a police officer walking down the stairs, and he's like, oh, yeah, they're closed. And I was like, they can't be closed. I was like, we get married in, like, three days. And, like, they told me to come here this day. And they're like, oh, they're doing, like, some. What are they doing? Some public thing where they're out of the office, like, doing a field trip or something. And so he's like, you're have to drive another hour to the next county. So we drove another hour up north, just made the window where they were closing within an hour. And, like, fortunately, I got our certificate.

[Unknown Speaker]

That could have been an interesting trip.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Well, because we would have still gotten married, but it would have been a celebration in Texas and then go back home to where we live now in South Carolina and just legally get married there.

[Unknown Speaker]

My wife is from an Italian family, same with mine. She. When we were planning the wedding, she asked me, you know, who do you want up there standing with you? And I said, can it just be me? Originally, she said, sure. She had 13 bridesmaids.

[Bo Simmons]

Holy cow.

[Unknown Speaker]

She threatened to put half on my side.

[Bo Simmons]

So that's why that would have been a hilarious wedding. Those photos would have been awesome.

[Unknown Speaker]

I said, can it just be me on my side? And all of it can be on your side.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And people can draw their own conclusions. I think the photos would have been dope, man.

[Bo Simmons]

They thought you were, like, marrying all them.

[Unknown Speaker]

It would have been a challenge. Right. The rule of thirds would have been a tough one there for the photographer.

[Bo Simmons]

I would have hated that. Job.

[Unknown Speaker]

And when she threatened to bring half of her bridesmaids onto my side, that's when my plan changed.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay. I'll start inviting some peeps.

[Bo Simmons]

Is that kind of like a bruise on your ego a little bit too? For me, it would be where it's like, what, are you going to bring your girls on my side? Nah, I'm gonna go higher. Guys, she wants.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know what it was? It was. She wanted the pictures to be balanced. That's literally what it was.

[Bo Simmons]

Fair enough.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I also think she was fucking with me a little bit.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. It could be.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was just trying to take the path of least resistance. We can keep this simple. She had been a bridesmaid like six or seven times.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And this was her chance to get him back. Like, now it's my turn.

[Bo Simmons]

I like your wife's thinking. That sounds like a fun wife.

[Unknown Speaker]

She's awesome.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

But, yeah, I had a moment of.

[Bo Simmons]

I get it though. My. My wife is Italian and Polish.

[Unknown Speaker]

Big families.

[Bo Simmons]

Big families. All from New York.

[Unknown Speaker]

That is where my wife is from. Upstate New York.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So her. My father in law grew up in Buffalo.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[Bo Simmons]

They now live in Erie in Pennsylvania. But some of her family is still up there in Buffalo. And a lot of people came from Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, New York. All came down to our wedding. And we're just like blown away. Like, never stepped foot on a ranch. Never seen cowboys. And it was one of those weddings where, you know, anybody who listens, who's from Texas, you know, we do it in the middle of May, and everyone's like, that's the rainiest season of the year in Texas. We check the weather every day. Perfectly fine. I think it was like 90 degrees was gonna be the high that day. And it was gonna go down to like 84, 85 by the time we got married. And half hour before we get married, lightning storm, like lightning strikes the tree above. We had an old chuck wagon set up. So, like on some of these ranches I go out to, there's very few that are still very traditional. Where they hire like a chuck wagon.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And it's called like working on a wagon. And so you have a cook that comes out and cooks for the cowboys for like a week or two straight. And they rotate that wagon to different pastures. So they had a. I think we had just this really cool chuck wagon set up. The lightning struck right above that wagon in a tree. And we had to delay the ceremony for like 30 minutes. And I'm sitting in the main house. Cause it's this Old stone, like, ranch home. And Bella's next door in the guest room. And my groomsmen are like, you all right? And I'm like, I'm stressed. I was like, how's Bella? And they're like, she's fine. She took her dress off and she's in her PJs and she's having fun and the girls are just like laughing. And I was like, well, now I know that she's okay. I'll be all right. But sure enough, like 30 minutes go by. The lightning lifts, all my guys run down, flip the chairs back over, drive everything off. And it worked out. But, man, the weddings are. It's tough when you have to plan your own too.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Because we didn't have a wedding planner. We wanted to like bootstrap it. Spend as little as possible.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And it's fun when you get to do it how you want it, but you realize that you're putting on a wedding and a show for everybody else.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And you still enjoy it, but it's. It's still, I guess, stressful with all the stuff and planning. It's a. Be it put into it.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's a balance between being about the people up there getting married and then also everybody else.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. I'm not doing it again.

[Bo Simmons]

No, I'm not either. So hopefully, you know, God has blessed me with one woman and I'll stay with her, work through whatever we can.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think it's an easier plan.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, I think so.

[Unknown Speaker]

I remember what I was going to ask you. I don't meet many people who've been attacked by bears and I really would like to hear this story.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay. I have to leave out some details though. Why? Because I'm trying to think of how I can talk about this topic without fishing game getting pissed off.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, were you running around in like a bacon wrapped suit?

[Bo Simmons]

No, but it's okay. I'll say this. I'll leave the ranch name out of it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay. What state was it in?

[Bo Simmons]

It was in Montana. Yeah, it was here and it was in the Bighorn mountain range.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[Bo Simmons]

So what happens up here in these northern states, Wyoming, Montana is. There's a lot of times where cowboys will rope bears. What on horseback is that to relocate them? Relocate them? Move them away from calves. They don't hurt them whatsoever.

[Unknown Speaker]

How does the bear respond to being roped?

[Bo Simmons]

So usually what happens is, like when you're roping a calf, and I'm sure you've seen it, like you rope their back legs and you kind of Keep them pinned down for a second. And then when you. It's called loosening your dolly, but you can loosen your deli on your rope, which is essentially just this little thing that's cinched down that loosens up, and any animal can just kick it off their back foot and run away, and they're harm free. Nothing happens to them. So there was. I think I was working this one pasture, and I was drawing these calves out of this canyon. And I look across the canyon, and I see, like, three cowboys saying, hey, bear. And they're chasing them on horseback. And he's a pretty big cinnamon bear. And like, for those of you who don't know, it's like a black bear species, but it's got this red color phase. Yeah, yeah. But they're almost. I would argue, like, they're bigger than a California black bear. Like, they're. This one was pretty big. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

The blacks up. Well, depending on their food source, they can get pretty big. I've seen some ones that are definitely a little in a caloric deficit, if you will.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And he was pretty big. So essentially what happened is they roped him on his back leg because they had calves coming down there, and they could see that the calves, he was kind of, like, going after them, and so they kept him in this ravine. I went down there and. And I had my camera at the time, and I was taking photos of the calves coming out, and I didn't really know where the bear went. And so what happened was, when they had them pinned down, I put my stuff away and went down there to kind of, like, help push those calves along, get everything out so we could let that bear go. And essentially what happened was the. One of the younger cowboys who was on horseback who roped him. It's just a funny thing. He had a new rope, so he's like, I don't want to cut my rope. And I was like, well, undally it. Like, if you loosen your rope, he'll get it kicked out. He kept doing it, but the bear, every time he would try and kick it off, it was just caught up in his claws. So he wasn't able to get it off his back foot. So at this point, I, like, get down. I'm on the ground, and the bear is kind of, like, pinned down in this brush. So he's, like, hiding facing away from me. And I was like, look, we're gonna have to get this rope off his back leg. And me, I'm just a quick person to just react and not really think things through very well. So I was just like, let's put the four horses in a line. And I'm just gonna grab the rope off his back foot. And so when he turns around, he'll see the horses. He's probably already startled. He's gonna want to run off. So essentially, we put the horses around me. I grabbed his back paw, pulled the rope off, and he just attacked me right there. And so. But it happened so fast. It was a matter of, like, I'm not even joking. It was probably two seconds. Like, all I heard was him growl, get up on his hind legs. And then I felt what almost felt like a horse kicking me in the shoulder. And then I fell down. And when I fell down, I fell kind of on my. My stomach, and my hat came off my head. And in my mind, I was thinking, like, you know, when you're in that position, you're thinking like the revenant. You're thinking like, I know what bears do. When you're face down. He's gonna start ripping on my back. So I just covered the back of my head. And sure enough, I felt his weight and momentum just barrel over me. And the cowboys were, like, hollering and, like, chased him off, and then he ran off, and he was fine. But the reason why I kept kind of the details out of that was because I didn't want to get crossed up with me being the one that roped the bear, because I didn't. I was just thinking in that moment.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, is that kind of a. No. No.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, I think it's. It's. I mean, some people would argue maybe it's inhumane, but some, you know, but up here in these northern states, like, they do it quite a bit to where they don't mean to harm animals or anything like that. It's just trying to keep them away from livestock and. Or relocate them to a different area.

[Unknown Speaker]

If they get into the livestock, your choices are going to be far more limited anyway, which they.

[Bo Simmons]

They did. And so when we were working those. Those calves, there was a calf that was killed a day or two prior by a bear. So they were thinking, like, in that same general location where they're at, they just don't want to take any chances of losing any more livestock. And so, you know, these ranches up here respect the bears where they're not killing them. You know, they go the proper means of getting a bear tag if they want to hunt them. I was just a photographer in that moment, working on that ranch that was just happened to be the one that got down on the ground and was like, we got to free this bear. Did it kick you?

[Unknown Speaker]

Is that what you felt?

[Bo Simmons]

No. So what happened was he swiped me. So it happened so fast. I got up, like, laughing because I didn't really know what happened. I was like, that was wild. And the second I started feeling like this heat in my arm, I looked down, there was blood, like, pouring out of my armpit. And I unbuttoned my shirt. Actually the same shirt, but that company sent me a new one. This very kind of same exact one. It's funny enough. And yeah, it's like a Schaefer outfitter shirt, but they, I, I unbuttoned it, had one of the cowboys look into, like, my armpit. And he was like, it doesn't look like too bad, but you got four, like, puncture wounds. And there was an older cowboy there that was like I was trying to fight through and just say, you know, we got a couple more hours of work. I'll go back to the ranch, I'll disinfect it and figure out what I got to do and maybe stitch it up myself. And he, he was like, I would probably go to an urgent care hospital because their claws have a lot of bacteria.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, for sure.

[Bo Simmons]

And that close to your heart. He's like, I wouldn't play around with that. So what happened was making this a long story. But I drove myself to back to the ranch where the headquarters was, where my car rental was or my rental car. And then I had to drive that car two hours to the nearest hospital. So it was probably almost a three hour drive in total. And I just kept my arm pinned to my side to kind of stop the bleeding. And when I got to the hospital, it's like right outside of like a native American reservation. And the whole office, I've never seen, like a hospital lobby just empty. Like, no one's in there. There's probably like three, four o' clock at night or late afternoon. And, you know, I sit down the chair, I check myself in, and the lady's like, all right, just take a seat in the lobby and like, we'll get to you when we can. And I was like, well, no offense, but, like, you've got blood running down your chair and all over your floor. And she like, looks down at me and looks up at my face and looks down again and she's like. Then she looks at her computer and she's like, oh, yeah, I did just enter that. You were attacked by a bear? And I was like, yeah. So I Probably need to get someone to come see me. And so she was like, hold on. So she like hits a buzzer or something and nurses come right away. They bring me back, they take a look at it, and essentially they were just gonna stitch it up initially after they gave me a saline wash. And then the main nurse who was there was like, I'm gonna do some chest X rays and just take a look and make sure your vital organs are fine. So she does X rays, and I'm like in there kind of laughing with the nurses and whatnot. And she comes back in and she was like, I wouldn't be laughing if I was you. And I was like, why? Am I. Am I good? Like, am I gonna. I'm thinking I'm gonna be here for like 48 hours doing surgery or something.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And she's like, he was. The main tear was an inch away from your auxiliary. And I was like, what does that mean? And she was like, you would have bled out in like five to 10 minutes. And I was like, really? So she's like, good news. Like, we're doing 14 stitches today. We're gonna finish washing it some more, give you stitches, you're good to go. And then I had to drive another six hours to another ranch that night to work the next day. And so bringing it back to what happened is I. When I was on that six hour drive, I called one of the cowboys and I was like, what did you know? What did you see from your perspective? And he was like, man, the second you pulled the rope off, he got up on his hind legs and he swiped once for your face and missed you. And then he swiped again. And that's what connected you. And then as you were falling backwards, he jumped over you and tried to bite your face and took your hat off your head. And I was like, that was all in a matter of like, three seconds. He was like, yeah, it was pretty wild. So essentially it was. It's a funny story. And I remember, like calling my. Kind of my fiance at the time, like, hey, don't freak out. And she was like, what is it now? And this is like eight months, you know, before we get married. And she's like. I told her, I was like, I was attacked by a bear. And she was like, how? What were you guys doing with bears? And I was like, we. We just. They. The cowboys roped one out. They were just trying to keep them away from the cavs for a minute. And essentially this is what happened. And she's like, well, did he get your Face. And I was like, no. And I was like, why would you not be with me anymore? And she was like, no, I would. I would still marry you, but, like, you're already ugly enough as it is. I want to make sure that your face is all right.

[Unknown Speaker]

She sounds awesome.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So it's been the funny story now where I go home, and a lot of people have wanted to hear this story or they've wanted to ask about the bear. And Bella just rolls her eyes. She's like, oh, great. Here we go. Here's the bear story again.

[Unknown Speaker]

So were you working on the ranch moving the cows, or were you out there working as a photographer?

[Bo Simmons]

I was working as a photographer. Yeah. So I wasn't on their payroll or anything like that. I was just invited to come out and take photos. And so, essentially, that's why I want to keep them private, is just the mutual respect I have for that ranch. I don't want to turn them into a liability or hurt that relationship. But it's one of those things where, you know, it's. You got to be careful out there with what you're doing. And obviously, I was not clearly thinking. The only thing that was going through my head was like, I just want to get this bear free. Like, I. I don't want to ditch the rope and him get caught up in a barbed wire fence.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Or I mean, something else happened. If I'm already here, I'm just thinking, all I got to do is just pull the rope off.

[Unknown Speaker]

Hindsight, what would you do now?

[Bo Simmons]

Cut the rope. Because I know eventually he'll get it off.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And so. And that's kind of the funny thing that I told. I mean, that cowboy, I think he was probably 19, 20, just a young guy and, like, a good hand, you know, and all that. And it's just a funny thing. Like, no cowboy wants to lose a.

[Unknown Speaker]

Rope, especially if you just bought the main tools. Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. It's one of your main tools, and you still got a whole day of work you got to do. So it was just one of those wild stories that it kind of spread to all the ranches up here. And I was like, when I went to that next ranch, they. They just roped a bear, like, the morning that I was there, and I had no idea. And I was like, is this a normal thing? And they're like, yeah, we kind of all do it for fun and, like, whatnot. But no one gets off their horse and takes a rope off and then gets attacked. They're like, that's wild. And they're like, respect, but also stupid. And I was like, I agree.

[Unknown Speaker]

Stay on your horse, fucker.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, and so it was just this funny thing now that it's like, hey, Bo, you know that western cowboy photographer? Yeah. He was attacked by bear working on a ranch. And so that's. I look at it like, that's my dedication to this lifestyle. So I've been attacked by a bear. All for it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay. What do the ranches do with the photos? Do they keep them just for their own legacy?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, the agreement that I have with most ranches is because right now I'm working on my second book, and I've been working on it for about eight years. The agreement that I have is that I pay my full way to get out to the ranch, you know, which airfare travel costs a couple grand. They don't pay me. I don't pay them. I get to work on horseback with them. And usually when I go out to a ranch, it's mostly for, like, branding work or whatnot. So I'll take photos, and then they'll keep them for just historical purposes or use them how they want, and then I'll use the images to, you know, highlight their story. If it's portraits of people that I take, you know, I'll post them on social media and kind of tell their story and honor their family and whatnot. And then. Or it goes in books or we turn them into artworks. And so the artworks is what obviously keeps my lights on, you know, for how much money I put into documenting this lifestyle. It's, you know, you got to make some money back. Yeah, for sure. So we'll sell prints through, like, art galleries. We'll do, like, museum shows and all that. So it's a. It's a fun gig where I feel fortunate that, you know, this cowboy industry is a very private community, and it takes a lot of trust to kind of be welcomed into it. And then, you know, not just go one time as a photographer and say you did your job, but to be welcomed back over and over again and get to know, you know, their families and work on horseback and be trusted with their animals. Like, it's a big. It's a big ask for them, but I'm fortunate that they allow me to do it.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's awesome, man.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

So you said you're working on your second book, so the one sitting between us, the 20 year war. Is this your first one?

[Bo Simmons]

Yes, sir. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you have a website associated with this?

[Bo Simmons]

Yes. So the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Just because we can. Michael can pull it up, and then that way viewers can see images.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. So it's 20yearwar.com. You can either spell it two zero, or you can just do 20 spelled out. So this. This started with my childhood best friend who I've known since I was five. His name's Dan Blakely. We grew up right next door. Yeah, that's the website there. So we just have it sold through. We handle everything. So obviously we got it published, and then we kind of took over all the rights and everything on the book.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you have any example images, or is this the. Scroll down?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, if you scroll down, it has some of the portraits, has kind of what the book is about. So essentially, for people looking at it, it's. It's 71.

[Unknown Speaker]

You got coalition asset in there.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, we got old Tim in there. But it's. It's funny because when we went into this, you know, we kind of. We understood that, you know, you have a lot of the. Kind of, like, the lack of a better term, like the influencer veteran community. And like, the influencer vet fluencer did.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not create that term. I've heard it.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Look at the jawline on that.

[Bo Simmons]

I know Nate, man. I don't think his jawline has ever gone away.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cut glass with that thing.

[Bo Simmons]

So. So that's Dan in the middle there. And then Tom was the one who helped me write the book. So both 275 rangers.

[Unknown Speaker]

But you knew Dan since very young age.

[Bo Simmons]

Dan I've known since I was 5. We grew up next door to each other. And During COVID in 2020, I was still living in California, was just kind of tired of like, the. Just the political stuff that was going on in that state, and just everything. The divide, everything happening with COVID So I was 30 years old, and I was like, I kind of want to experience something else. So Dan and his wife are living in North Carolina. I moved and spent probably two, three months living in my car and traveled like, 30 different states during COVID Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

What an amazing time to do that.

[Bo Simmons]

It was great. I came up here to Glacier. I, like, camped out, like, showered in. What's the main lake there called right up there? McDonald. I was, like, showering in that every morning and, like, cooking dinner on my campfire and. And I don't know if you're supposed.

[Unknown Speaker]

To bathe in Lake McDonald.

[Bo Simmons]

I don't know if you are.

[Unknown Speaker]

I feel like the statute of limitations, if there is one, is.

[Bo Simmons]

There's another thing. People are coming after me For. But after this is done. Montana, the state is going to hate me.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, they're already really pissed at Taylor Sheridan. They're. I mean, who they really should be pissed at though is Brad Pitt. Oh, they forget the old river runs through it.

[Bo Simmons]

That's right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And that's all set in Montana.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Fly fishing, epic scenery.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

The most. I mean let's just be honest. The most beautiful man alive in his true. He's 60, still a banger.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Didn't he do like some like recent. I only know this is a photographer, but he did some like recent photo shoot where you're like that dude's 60.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it was. It was a GQ. Yes. Where was that though?

[Bo Simmons]

It was in a different country.

[Unknown Speaker]

I cannot believe I'm about to ask you this, Michael, but can you google where the Brad Pitt.

[Bo Simmons]

Michael, don't get excited over there. Let me look it up.

[Unknown Speaker]

Rock hard right now. Stay seated, Michael. I want to say it was in Norway, but that's not right. It might have been in Iceland.

[Bo Simmons]

It might be Iceland. I feel like somewhere up there in that Nordic region it says New Zealand. New Zealand.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's 100% correct.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Iceland right next door, man.

[Unknown Speaker]

Some of those pictures are awesome. But I also think that a lot of that is a blend. I mean, whatever. You can. Hard to probably take a bad photograph of Mr. Pitt. But there is artistry in a high end photography.

[Bo Simmons]

There's a. We'll get into it. But that's my background. It's like fashion photography. And it's harder than most people think to get all that stuff right. And to stage actors and actresses and celebrities that just don't want a camera in their face all the time to get them in that right mental headspace is very difficult.

[Unknown Speaker]

Isn't that part of their job though?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, but I think it's just because they're in the spotlight so much. It's like they almost get annoyed of it. Which to me is so kind of. It's interesting.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm not a huge connoisseur. Like I'm aware that he did a photo shoot because somebody cropped it and put it somewhere else. I looked at the picture. It was black and white. It was a pretty rugged, stark image. Like God damn, that's awesome.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Plus New Zealand is one of the, if not the most beautiful place I've ever been.

[Bo Simmons]

That's where my wife and I want to take our honeymoon. Dude, we're thinking of the South Island.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's where I went for Two weeks. Unbelievable. Switzerland. Pretty good. I was like, they're up there, they're competing, but. So I'm not a connoisseur of that type of photography. I don't read fashion magazines. I'm aware they exist.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'll see the images from time to time. They put them in the most ridiculous clothing, in the most ridiculous poses. So I could actually kind of see how they would get a little tired of that. There's one thing going to an acting job and you know, hey, this is. You had a huge paycheck hopefully, and you're going to portray this person. So you'll be in pure specific, whatever it is.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

There's another one where it's like, hey, you're gonna wear this clown outfit with a thong on the outside of your pants and do a handstand.

[Bo Simmons]

But people will eat it up and I think.

[Unknown Speaker]

Will they, though? How do you know?

[Bo Simmons]

Some people do. I mean. So I guess going back. Yeah. The state of Montana, I think it's. When I come up here is I. I treat it like I'm just a traditional man. So, like, I like fishing, I like hunting. So I come up here and try and go on like bow hunting trips or we go fishing or work on ranches and so it's funny. So going back, I. I traveled and did that for about three months all over the US and then when I moved in with Dan, I was already kind of like year three or four into working on this western photo book.

[Unknown Speaker]

And is that gonna end up being your second book?

[Bo Simmons]

Yes. So that's one coming up. So Dan and I, we were sitting in his living room just having beers, probably two, three in the morning. And where all great ideas are fun. Exactly. And he's like, what if we did a coffee tale book on like veterans from GWAT? Because the 20th anniversary of 911 is coming up in a year. At the time, like eight months. And I was like, that kind of sounds cool. Like, I'm interested, like, tell me more. And I've always loved the military and appreciate it because of Dan. And so when it came to it, him and I kind of started like working on the outline of what this book is going to be. And we're like, we have to call it the 20 year war. Like, it only makes sense to do that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Were you guys in the ideation, trying to have it out by the 20th anniversary?

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, daddy.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And the crazy thing about it is that. So we, we went through a few different publishers and they basically were like, there's no way you're going to get this book done in time. It takes years usually to like, work out a contract.

[Unknown Speaker]

Year and a half minimum.

[Bo Simmons]

Year and a half. Year and a half minimum. Up to three years, sometimes more. And like, there's no way you're going to get this thing done and turned in within four or five months. Because we need the rough draft. We need everything final and sent to our team to get it into print in like four or five months. So we went to Ballast Books and at the time it was like the. The publisher that we knew through a mutual veteran that I think is it Eddie Gallagher. So he did his book through them. Okay. And so we got in touch with Ballast Books and they were a little hesitant on it. They've never really done, like a photo heavy coffee tale book before. You know, they do a lot of nonfiction type stuff a little bit out.

[Unknown Speaker]

Of their wheelhouse, for sure.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep. And so when we got on the phone call with them, you know, we knew we were gonna bring on Tom to help write it. And we basically were like, hey, we're working with like, rangers. Like, if anyone's gonna get it done, they're gonna get it done. We're gonna figure out how to make this work. So Dan was like, bo, I'm gonna work out all the logistics of people we can connect with as far as veterans from all four branches. Like, it's not just gonna be, you know, a special operations heavy book. We need to get a little bit of everybody in it. So what it turned into is me being on the road for a whole month again after I just got to his house and moved in from being on the road for three months. I got a month to hang out with him and then go back on the road. And him and I were on the phone just basically being like, hey, are you in Chicago? Cool. You're going to do this person now? Where are you going next? And I was like, now I'm going down south. Cool. I'm going to line up these three people. So it was just this, like, chaotic craziness of lining up 71 people. And initially we had 70 people, but we had. We got in touch with Jack Tilly, who was the 71st person, one of the last people I photographed. And the reason being is because he was in the Pentagon when the plane hit. And so we were like, that's a story we have to have in here. And so, yeah, essentially we. I spent a month on the road photographing veterans in their everyday outfits. I didn't want to, like, stage them and make them play dress up or do anything like that. It was. I basically told them, let me meet you where you're at, whether it's your business, your home, if you want to photo alone or with your family. And so we want to make it very organic. And we knew that when we did the book, we want to have their deployment photos attached to their portrait so you can kind of see the before and after. And the book is more so about the transition of veterans after they hang up the uniform. So it's more of a positive message rather than, like, there's plenty of books that are going to talk about the battles and the warfare that's never going to end. But we were like, let's do a book that talks about coming from this brotherhood of the military and then having to remove that and feel like you've lost your identity and having to restart in society. And how can you benefit from coming out the other side of that? And so everybody's story, like, my problem as a civilian, as I was thinking we might run into the same story twice. And Dan and Tom were like, no, we're not. Every veteran story is so different. And for sure, like, the funny thing is, is when I was on the third veteran that I photographed, I remember after that interview is a pretty heavy one. And the gentleman that I photographed, like, never told a story, never wanted to even tell his family, was like, I don't know how he even said yes to being part of the book. But I pulled her on the side of the road in North Carolina, and I just had, like, tears coming down my face. And I call up Dan and I was like, whatever we do, do not let me quit, like, no matter how hard this gets. Because even though we've only got three interviews done, that's three people that I feel like I failed to tell their story. So sure enough, all 71 veterans that I interviewed are all in the book. Like, there wasn't one story or one photograph that we ditched that we had to, like, cut room for or anything. We want to make sure that we. We honor those people. And yeah, that's. That's obviously how it came out. And then we released it on the anniversary of 9 11, we partnered with the National Veterans Memorial Museum in Columbus, Ohio, and did a big gala event there. And then we kind of did this whole, you know, as any book press you do, you know, you kind of get on like FOX and Friends, cnn, msmc, all those. We did the tour. And the funny thing about the tour was that this is when that catastrophe of the withdrawal of Afghanistan was happening. So the funny thing is the SEO and marketing that we got on the book because every news station was saying the 20 year war, so the book would pop up on Google quite a bit. But so we had a lot of like just podcasts and news networks that wanted to talk about it and more. So talk to Dan and Tom because they wanted to hear the military perspective of what their opinions were of this withdrawal. But it's been fascinating. I've really enjoyed it because I've got to connect with so many veterans from, you know, privates all the way to four star generals like General Votel who I met in D.C. and like connect with them and hear their story and kind of help bridge that gap of maybe us civilians have a hard time understanding veterans. We ask a lot of dumb questions. And I want to make sure that like this book was honoring, you know, all the men and women that served during those 20 years.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, an argument could be made that transitioning out is a lot harder than the war you fight when you're in.

[Bo Simmons]

That's what I've heard.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's not true for everybody, but I, but I also couldn't give you an example of somebody who has told me, and maybe this is out there. I just don't have an example of somebody that has told me, oh, everything that I planned and how I thought it was going to be. That's exactly how it went. Super smooth. Yeah, maybe they're out there. And if you are, good for you.

[Bo Simmons]

That's great because I'll tell you, I've.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yet to encounter that story.

[Bo Simmons]

I didn't meet one.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And I think the hard part is like, we obviously had a list of like 20 questions that we would ask every veteran and you know, they'd all answer it differently. But one of those questions was kind of about the transition and how it's been going for them. And some of these people in the book, you know, they've started up successful businesses. Some of the other people that I've, that I talked to were just like, it's hard and you know, would kind of pour out their emotions. And it was almost this, this weird thing is as, as me as a civilian, you know, there's some people in here that, that were like higher ups, like in Delta or the unit. And you know, Dan would go with me. There's one story in particular where Dan went with me down near Fort Bragg and we interviewed one of them and he was kind of in charge of that. Like, and Dan was like, he was looking at me sideways when I was asking these questions because I was asking like, you know, what deployments did you do? How many? And those guys are like, they're all. They're over there all the time, and there's certain miss they can't talk about. And so Dan's just kind of like, side eyeing me, like, how was Bo getting away with answering or asking these questions? And this guy is so, like, cool about Bo asking him where most people or veterans would probably never ask those types of questions. And it wasn't like the dumb questions of like, hey, did you kill anybody? Or anything like that. It was just more kind of mission focused. What, they're in charge of what they did over there. And it was just this. This funny thing where he, you know, gave me a lot of peace as a civilian and kind of like a photojournalist, if you will, coming and photographing him and his family and asking these questions. And it's. It's taught me a lot of how graceful these people were to meet with me and kind of have me hear their story and then put it in. In a book. And how much now I've wanted to go into the civilian world and kind of just keep encouraging other people to maybe get behind that or tell more of these long format stories. I mean, that's what's great about, like, what we're doing here with podcasts or with, you know, social media and long format storytelling is I think that there's so many interesting people out there that I think that the world needs more of that rather than just this, like, quick, instant gratification clicks.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, and most of this stuff is negative in nature as well. There's a negativity bias. And I think that is, for whatever reason, I don't know, it's probably ingrained, evolutionary to pay attention to the negativity, but I don't think we're designed to consume as much negativity as that is presented or is possible if you deeply engage with that. Because there's just an existential crisis around every corner.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And it's. It's a weird thing where I've seen the pros and cons of social media, and it's like, we obviously need it for some capacity with business nowadays.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

With connection and all that. But it's. It's hard because you get in this. This mindset of comparison and you're seeing everyone's highlights from their life, but you're not seeing actually what goes into their life. And so a part of me, you know, after finishing this book and, and connecting with kind of the, you know, the cowboy ethos and the western lifestyle is like, those are people that I had nothing but like so much appreciation for and the hard work that they put into feeding America and how they want to be out of the spotlight, you know, like a lot of them are. I think the cowboy community is very similar to the veteran community from what I've seen. And it's almost like they do their job, they don't complain over it and they don't want to talk about it. You know, they're kind of just there to kind of do their work. And I think cowboys know that they are feeding America and what they're doing is good and they're taking care of their neighbors and they have a foundation with God and family. But it's almost like an outsider like me or someone coming in and photographing them. There's ways that, that can go wrong. And I think that the important thing that I've tried to do is photograph them naturally and not so much like exploit them. Like I've always wanted to be in their corner and value what they do and share that with the rest of the world. Because I think that it's, I mean, hey, you know, the world needs more cowboys. It really does at this time.

[Unknown Speaker]

I can't argue with that. What surprised you the most? Talking with the 71 veterans.

[Bo Simmons]

I think the main takeaway that I got and it, and I kind of lightly touched on it was that how different their stories were from one another. And maybe some others start off similar as like they joined because of 9, 11 or they joined because they were just in a low point in their life and didn't have a job and were like, I'm just going to go in the military.

[Unknown Speaker]

Totally viable option for a lot of people.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep. And. But it was one of the things where that inspired me the most was hearing their story and where their lives have taken them since then. It was almost this kind of eye opening mentality for me at the time where I was kind of starting over. You know, I was like just moving into my best friend's home and living in his spare bedroom with him and his family. I sold everything in California when I moved. I was kind of really starting from scratch. So kind of feeling a bit defeated and at a loss because I, I quit doing fashion photography. I was going through like a breakup at the time. I moved away from my family. And then I'm interviewing people that somehow went through their own battles. It was like something that I could Take away and learn from and be like, hey, you just gotta, you know, put your boots back on and get back out there and find motivation. And I think that that project, you know, really helped motivate me and it reshaped my, I guess, my love for photography. Because throughout my 18 years of being a photographer, I've tried to quit it three or four times, try to just hang it up, you know, as most photographers do. It's like. It's like what you and I were talking about, you know, walking here to the studio is like, how much appreciation you have for photography. And maybe there's an interest that you'd want to do it. And you get into it and it's like everything. It's. You get into it and then you start making your way up and you start meeting some of the bigger photographers and then you start comparing. And then it's almost like this, this fun hobby, this love starts to become a chore and it starts to become work, and then it's all of a sudden that love is gone. And that's a hard balance that I've now still currently face. And I think that my escape is photographing cowboys and getting out there and doing it because I'm working for myself. And the nice thing is that, you know, I get to take these images and we can blow them up and put them in galleries. And then you have a whole, you know, we've got about. I think. I think we've got eight galleries. But between those eight galleries, there's about 20 galleries altogether because some of them have multiple locations. And then you've got their team that can kind of handle sales and do all that. But it's just one of those things where that book, you know, really kind of remotivated that spark. And it helped me connect with people that in my mind was thinking, like, you know, when I was first thinking, I'm going to photograph veterans, I'm thinking, like, oh, like, like the. The bearded, like, knuckle dragger, like, guys that are just, like, out there. And then you meet just everyday people that served that are just like, you and I, you know, that you can talk about. They like to barbecue, they like to drink beer, they like to do these things. They like to take their family to the river. And there's so many, like, common things that I think that maybe on my side, as a civilian, we just think we're kind of separate or a little bit divided. But when you really strip down what they did and you remove the uniform, they're just people.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is there Any one story that stuck out with you the most. And you can leave the name out of it if you want to.

[Bo Simmons]

No, no, I can talk about. There's. There's a woman, she's on the front page. Her name is Tanya Oxendine.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know what page she's on?

[Bo Simmons]

I don't remember what page she's on. If you go back on that screen at the very top, you'll see her portrait right down the next one, slide down right there. So that's Tanya. So Tanya, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, grew up in Atlanta, joined the army. And to back it up, her whole childhood went through just horrible experiences like was living in poverty, you know, was sexually abused and then joined the army and became the highest, I guess you would say, like non commissioned nco.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And so. And just went through kind of all the trials and you know, even talked about how there was still sexual abuse in the army and in the military.

[Unknown Speaker]

It. All the military services. Yeah. Okay. She did 30 years.

[Bo Simmons]

30 years, wow. And just an incredible woman, like went through all the obstacles, all the odds. And when I sat down with her in her home, she was just such an inspiration to kind of hear from her and hear her story and that was the one that really stuck with me. And so like every like tour run we did for this book or whatnot, you know, Dan and I kind of picked the people that we really connected with and she was one of mine. And yeah, her story was just fascinating to hear that, you know, she went through what a lot of people go through, just hard times in life, but came out on the other side and, you know, has worked for some great companies and as far as I can tell, hopefully now she's doing well. But yeah, that was the one that really stuck to me.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's awesome. You were saying, I don't know if Michael was recording because I struggle to get him to do his job well. But you were saying you might do another book.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Similar to this.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So which at the pace you're doing.

[Unknown Speaker]

Your cowboy book, I feel like that not the cowboy one. That'll be your third book even though you've been working on it the longest.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, that's very true.

[Unknown Speaker]

I feel like you might have this book, the follow up and then in the 30s.

[Bo Simmons]

Well, I think my goal is, is to do. I would love to do a volume two of this book if it becomes a possibility. And like we've talked to some bigger publishers in New York. We've obviously, you know, talked to different museums, like 9 11. I hope we get to work with them one day.

[Unknown Speaker]

How would you expand it? What would be different?

[Bo Simmons]

I would for sure change the layout of it. Obviously it would still be a portrait heavy book. It would keep the same formula. Like, I want to keep the storytelling of, of telling more veteran stories, make it bigger. You know, maybe do 100 instead of 70.

[Unknown Speaker]

But I feel like that's a catchy number too.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Could be like just something. Something big.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And. And I would spend more time, obviously. I had a month to go on the road and take these photos. If I knew that I could have a couple years to design the next book. I, you know, spent six months, if I could, traveling the country. And I would just like to keep telling this, this overall story and message because there's so many veterans out there that their stories need to be heard. And like, even in this book, there's people in here that I'm like, if I could buy the life rights of their story, that would be a movie.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Like, there's people in here. Like, I know that they've talked about it and I think there's already people that have his life rights. But Nate Self, who is at Tucker Gar.

[Unknown Speaker]

I have heard of this man.

[Bo Simmons]

So Roberts Ridge.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yep.

[Bo Simmons]

Like when I met with him in Austin, Texas and took his photo and then hearing that story of that battle, you're like, this dude. This needs to be a movie. Like this is. It's heartbreaking what they went through, those rangers and the seals up there. But there's just people like that, that even if you remove the special operations, just people that have, like Tanya, I could see that being a movie, you know, from what she's done. And so I'd like to do that. What my goal is is to finish my western book. I have a year left, so this is my last year. Next year I'm hoping to publish it because I've already got talks with a couple like western museums of doing like an exhibition on it. And then. And then I would probably resume maybe doing a volume two of the 20 year war. And I think we'd probably maybe change the name but keep in the same wheelhouse.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was going to ask you, what do you think you would call it?

[Bo Simmons]

Well, so we have. After this book came out, we had got contacted by the museum. So the National Veterans Memorial Museum wanted to turn the book into an exhibition. So we selected like 20 of our favorite portraits and just made sure that the stories were all unique compared to one another and just drastically different. We blew those up did an exhibition. And then our goal was to keep that going for the next five to ten years and just let it travel the US into different museums. So we titled that the 20 Year War. Our Next Greatest Generation. And we obviously took inspiration from the veterans from World War II, because that was the Greatest Generation. But we knew that that was kind of a. It could be a controversial title. But we looked at it like it really is the Next Greatest Generation. I mean, these are the people that are going to be leading our country, that the people that are to carry out what's happening in society. And a lot of these veterans are doing great things in their lives. And we're able to come back from wartime into readjusting to being a civilian again. So we titled it Our Next Greatest Generation. And I can. That would. If I could, that could be a cool title for a second volume.

[Unknown Speaker]

I dig it.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Especially for people who know the original title.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Where that. The homage that that pays and the connection to that. I think that'd be awesome.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And especially, you know, those who know that it's an exhibition and it's still traveling with that title. That's kind of just off the top of my hat that. That we would title it something in that wheelhouse if we want to keep it consistent with what we've already been doing.

[Unknown Speaker]

I like the Traveling Expedition idea. Have you ever seen the Traveling Wall Expedition?

[Bo Simmons]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

Memorial wall.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, wait. Yes, I have.

[Unknown Speaker]

It is fucking awesome. The original, obviously, DC is powerful, and I recommend anybody spend some time on the mall there in D.C. and take a look at it. They dropped it over at Glacier High for a week.

[Bo Simmons]

Did they really?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And so I got the chance. I think it's a. Michael, can you double check on this? I think it's a one third scale model.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

It might be 1/5.

[Bo Simmons]

3/5.

[Unknown Speaker]

3/5.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I got two of those numbers correct.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not in order.

[Bo Simmons]

Close enough.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's not the same size.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

But it is just as moving. And it was really cool. They had a crane up there with an American flag. And when we happened to go see it, there was. We were able to walk to it from the townhouse we rent. There was a southerly wind, but it blew the flag parallel to the ground. Huge American flag. And you walked underneath the shadow of it to go see it with flags everywhere. They do a really good. I believe it was around. I think it was around Memorial Day, too, because the high school over there is just littered in American flags. And Main street littered in American flags. It's awesome.

[Bo Simmons]

Isn't that incredible to. To see that there's places that still. I mean, like you. I mean, it is incredible.

[Unknown Speaker]

But what is more incredible to me is that people will say this country was never great and that we shouldn't do things like that.

[Bo Simmons]

Which is. It's just crazy to me to think.

[Unknown Speaker]

That I try as hard as I can to see things through other people's eyes. I struggle to understand where they land at that assessment. And I'll be the first. I mean, our country is very flawed.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

As is every country on Earth.

[Bo Simmons]

Every.

[Unknown Speaker]

We have a checkered past of really stupid shit. Probably the biggest stain on our country. Slavery. I don't know how anybody thought that was a good idea back then.

[Bo Simmons]

Or other countries that did it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Of which also again, name for me another country that doesn't have a very similar or the exact same black stain on their. No pun intended by black stain, but that same stain on their history.

[Bo Simmons]

Like, I'm Norwegian descent. And like, if you look at the history of Norway, they were raping and pillaging their own people. It was bad.

[Unknown Speaker]

Human beings are the most savage species on.

[Bo Simmons]

We can be ugly. We can be beautiful.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. But to get to that place where you. You think that that display of patriotism is somehow disgusting or no longer deserved or unwarranted. I don't. I can't. I'm like in an attempt to try to find my way to look at that. You would have to objectively ignore or intentionally rewrite some to get to that place.

[Bo Simmons]

You know what I think it is? Is. I think it's. It's. Our country has created two identities. So anything patriotic is immediately put into conservative side.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like hard right wing actually too.

[Bo Simmons]

Exactly. So I think what. And I'm like you. So even though if there's like. And I don't agree with very far right and very far left. I think you can swing so far in either direction.

[Unknown Speaker]

Extremists scare the shit out of me.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

In whatever category they may come into.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

Religious, ideological, dietary.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, yoga, even jiu jitsu.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

They. I'm. I'm more like, hey, the health thing.

[Bo Simmons]

Might be a good thing. I wish I could do that. I just went up to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, but the health thing. Taken too far.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

True. Ruin your life. That's again, like you. Whatever. Live your life however you want to. Be on the front leading edge. Be as extreme as you want to. But, you know, maybe recognize you might. There's things that if you take it too far, it's actually not great for you.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. See, I got a problem. Where even this morning I went up to Polebridge. It's like one of my favorite little towns. Got those huckleberry bear claws.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was gonna say, did you get some cinnamon rolls up there?

[Bo Simmons]

No, I got the huckleberry bear claw. I just did it so I could take a photo and make my wife jealous. I got two. I only ate one. One's in the back seat of the truck right now, just melting. Oh, it's melting. It's me. Great. For later when I sit in a cheap motel and eat that. But going back, I think it's. I try and keep an open mindset of. I don't watch the news much at all. And so if I do any research or I look up anything. I think most of the days now it's like YouTube, you know, if you find stuff on YouTube or I even just sit down and talk with people. You know, my travels have gotten me to meet some of the far left, far right. And I. I try and hear everybody out because I think being a person like you deserve to be heard. And. And I think that the reality is that we make judgment so much. And I think that going back to if you see patriotic flags or an event like that, that it's automatically put in the box as far right. If you see somebody who maybe has their hair dyed or maybe they care about the environment, they're immediately put into the far left. So we categorize these people based on what we see every day on social media and what's fed to us. That we're just this. This echo chamber of, like, judgment. And it becomes this crazy divide to where people can't even like, relate or have anything to talk about anymore outside of politics. And it's really sad. It's unfortunate that people can't have appreciation for those events or military because they look at it as well. I don't want to support that because screw the system, because that system has wronged me and that system is led by Trump. And so I'm not going to be a part of that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And it just works.

[Unknown Speaker]

Destroyed. Even though I don't have a better solution for what to put into place.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

But also destroy it.

[Bo Simmons]

But the reality is you see that and you see people being vocal about that stuff online.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And maybe at like these rallies happening right now in la. But I've.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which in LA right now and this is going to come out weeks from now.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

For the rallies that hopefully are no longer ongoing in LA. It was one square mile of a city that is 567 square miles.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

90% of the stuff I see online does not align with 90% of the things I see with my own eyes. That's the biggest disconnect.

[Bo Simmons]

No, it would make you think it was the whole city.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I asked people that, who get, who are willing to have a conversation, especially if they, if you can tell that they are. Their emotional flame is like the fire is burning very intensely. I will just, I try to get to the place of asking them, are the things that you are seeing online that are making you feel this way? Are you actually seeing this in your day to day life? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but is the volume of what you're seeing online equal to the volume of what you're seeing in your day to day life? And if it is vastly different, and I'm not an expert in any of this, I think that there is an issue there. And I think that's how you can largely, if you could pick your word, I guess, manipulate or control people.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, and there's, there's a lot of that going on to where, I mean, even traveling, you know, it's. I mean, I mean, if people look at me, I mean, they see dirty boots, a cowboy hat, you know, I'm immediately put into the, the conservative camp. And by all means, like, I do vote that way. I'm a man of God. Like, I am a traditional man, but there's a part of me that I can have conversations with people and not be so kind of drastic and, and make it so. Because it's like I've sat next to people that maybe were really far left and we've had honest conversations, not even about politics. And I'm sure they looked me up and down and were like immediately thinking, I know this guy's a Trump supporter. I know he's probably like the worst thing you could be is what being a. A white, straight, conservative, Christian male.

[Unknown Speaker]

Nowadays, the term is cis.

[Bo Simmons]

Sis. Yeah, I'm old, I guess, with a C. Okay. What is that?

[Unknown Speaker]

Cis. See? Cisgendered.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, gotcha.

[Bo Simmons]

I feel like I've heard it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sis is like sis, but I think that's short for sister.

[Bo Simmons]

I feel like I've heard it and I've just never looked it up of what it meant. But anyways, I just saved you the time.

[Unknown Speaker]

You're welcome.

[Bo Simmons]

Thank you. Now I'm gonna use that word all the time.

[Unknown Speaker]

Conversations. Or I try to as well. I don't understand why People can't wrap their head around the concept of understanding something does not have to equate to agreeance.

[Bo Simmons]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why not explore why somebody feels the way that they do? At the end of that conversation, you are under no obligation to agree with what that person believes, nor are they. But it will help you maybe take a step to your left or right. Not politically, just, I mean, changing the angle on how you're viewing something that could be enlightening in some way.

[Bo Simmons]

But the reality is that, and I don't mean this to hurt anybody, but I think we've just become so sensitive as people and I'm just trying to say we're pussies. I think we are. And I'm not just saying chose a.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sensitive word to call people. That's true.

[Bo Simmons]

And I'm not saying as a nation, but as the world, yeah, outrage is optional. And so I think what has happened is that when we have a disagreement, which is healthy to disagree on things, that's why we debate. Like, that's why we can say, hey, agree to disagree and then move on with your day and you can still be friends, you can still get along. But the reality is that when we disagree, people take that personally and they take it as one step further that if I disagree with you, it's basically like me saying, no, screw your feelings, you're wrong. And they take it so internally.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why do you think that is now?

[Bo Simmons]

I think it's, we all want to be accepted. I think we all want to be welcomed, we all want to be loved for who we are.

[Unknown Speaker]

But I mean, has that really changed? Don't you think most humans have felt that way through most of life?

[Bo Simmons]

I think we've always felt that way, but I think it's now at an all time high because of, I wonder.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why it would increase.

[Bo Simmons]

I think it's because us as humans, because of the evolution of social media and everything else, we've become more disconnected from one another. So now all we want to be is heard and seen.

[Unknown Speaker]

Isn't it funny that social media is neither social nor media?

[Bo Simmons]

No, it's crazy. It's, it's like, it's. That's why I said it's a good thing and it's a bad thing because what it's doing is it's driving away connection. It's driving away like just society as a whole. So it's kind of like one of those things where if you remove that connection, it's almost like people no longer feel heard or loved or seen.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Bo Simmons]

And so when they get a chance to actually vocalize how they feel and someone disagrees with that, it hits them twice as hard.

[Unknown Speaker]

And what's wild is I don't care what you believe. You'll never be able to convince everybody. You're never going to be fully aligned with every. There's always going to be somebody out there that believes something different. I don't care what your belief is. Yeah, I'm a devout pacifist and nobody should be killed for any reason. Allow me to introduce you to an Islamic jihadist.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm sorry.

[Bo Simmons]

Take what you believe and go over there and watch what happens. I hate to say that, but, like, there's a lot of these things where I understand the idea and concept to back a country like that. But if you take some of the things that we believe in here as a nation. Let's just say gay rights, marriage, gay.

[Unknown Speaker]

Rights for Palestine is an interesting one.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So all that stuff, if you take that argument or you take that lifestyle or the person.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Who has a person that has. That goes to the place that you.

[Bo Simmons]

Are protesting, go move there for a week and protest it is.

[Unknown Speaker]

They're not going to have the reception that you would think.

[Bo Simmons]

No. And that's the unfortunate reality is that we live. I've traveled to some just interesting places and I would say that we have it so lucky here in America. Even with all the chaos we see daily on social media and on the news. We live a very cushy lifestyle.

[Unknown Speaker]

You hit it on the head, though. And that is your ability to see with your own eyes the different conditions and environments that people live in. You can access the world through your device. It's not the same. No, it is not the same. The visceral experience, the things that are never going to be caught up on whatever size of that screen or phones are going to become. You can learn. But what I think allows me to appreciate the most about this country and what we have, whether people take advantage of it or not, because that's a choice too. I think a lot of people don't even understand the things that they're not taking advantage of.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which is, again, live your life the way you want to, but in traveling the world to places that do not get a lot of stars on TripAdvisor.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

It reorients your sense of gratitude.

[Bo Simmons]

I mean, you come back when you travel and see some places and there's like a whole nother level homelessness.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Where like kids are shitting in the streets.

[Unknown Speaker]

Go somewhere where the side of the concrete into the road is still red from where they were cutting people's heads off.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

For a disagreeing.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know. Or where there's still, you know, theft of even a minor item. Your hands are coming off.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Let alone a woman, God forbid, not wearing a beekeeper outfit.

[Bo Simmons]

And it's happening in public. Yeah. You're walking by, doing your shopping for groceries and you're seeing that happen.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

So it's. That's the crazy reality is that like I Truly believe, like, if you, if you have clean water here in the US and you have some kind of shelter over your head, you're rich. Like, you're. You're blessed in some degree compared to some other places. And I know that we all have struggles, we all have our problems, whether it's financial, it's work, it's relationships, anything else. I try and look at the positive on the other side of everything and look at like, you know, I have my own complaints, I have my own goals that I want to do and achieve, but when I really break it down, and I need to remind myself this, and that's why I'm saying it, is that I do live a great life and I am blessed. And I think kind of going back to it all is I just wish that we weren't so kind of divided because of social media. I wish that more people could just have honest conversations and not really take it to heart. Yeah, but, but I, I get at the core, it's because people want to be heard, people want to be accepted and they want to be loved. And sometimes that can go too far and they react emotionally because of it. And I just think is like, I'm just going to say, as a nation, as a country for the US we didn't used to be like that. You know, we could agree to disagree and move on and not take it harsh.

[Unknown Speaker]

We also weren't able to argue with somebody that you're never going to meet in a different part of the country. Yep, I do.

[Bo Simmons]

Every second of the day.

[Unknown Speaker]

Every second of the day. And also, by the way, just so most people know, half those people are bots.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

I forget the stat. Was it Richard Ryan that was on here talking about 80% of Internet traffic is bots?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

There's a stat that'll really hat off.

[Bo Simmons]

No kidding.

[Unknown Speaker]

These people that you're in arguments with, it might just. Have you ever seen these videos of the cell phone AI bot farms where it's just racks and racks, racks and racks. One of the things I love about social media, like, I fantasize often of it being just completely just turning it off and the chaos that would ensue for a few days and everybody would be like, yeah, we're totally fine. Yeah, I wouldn't have a way to get amazing memes. It is my favorite part.

[Bo Simmons]

That is my favorite part too.

[Unknown Speaker]

God damn it. They are amazing.

[Bo Simmons]

And we're like every human where, you know, we're like sitting in bed about it or. Yeah, sitting in bed, about to go to sleep. Holding our phone over our face in the dark room, looking at memes and just laughing.

[Unknown Speaker]

You'll appreciate this as a photographer, someone in a visual medium. Michael, look this up and see if you can find it. It's an art. I don't know. I'm pretty sure it's picture. It's a display where they Photoshop the device out of their hands.

[Bo Simmons]

No kidding.

[Unknown Speaker]

And it just shows the posture and the direction of the eyes and how everybody like if that device. How non fucking sensical it all is.

[Bo Simmons]

Well, I'm sure you've seen and maybe this is similar.

[Unknown Speaker]

Go to an airport and see how many people's eyes are down at a 45 degree angle as opposed to up.

[Bo Simmons]

And looking, cranking their neck.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Yes.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, whoa.

[Unknown Speaker]

I knew you would love this.

[Bo Simmons]

What?

[Unknown Speaker]

Look at that one on the top left. Like, isn't it the people getting ready to get married. Isn't that an amazing graphical depiction of how stupid we are?

[Bo Simmons]

That's crazy. Just like by how like separated they look as humans. Yeah, like how not in the moment we are.

[Unknown Speaker]

Look at all three of the kids. I mean that is so classic. Guy driving a tractor on a.

[Bo Simmons]

That's hilarious.

[Unknown Speaker]

Isn't that wild though?

[Bo Simmons]

It's crazy. Cause it's one of those things where.

[Unknown Speaker]

What we're looking at is Eric Pickersgill Studio and it's. Yeah, Eric removed whoever watches this.

[Bo Simmons]

Those are great photos. It's a cool series. It is very creative. Yeah, it's. It's one of those things where it's sad because you know what's funny is like now you're seeing like our parents in it, you know, where you've got like my dad's trying 70, 80 year olds that are on their phone all the time.

[Unknown Speaker]

My dad does Saturday Instagram lives.

[Bo Simmons]

Really?

[Unknown Speaker]

He calls him a podcast.

[Bo Simmons]

Do you join in? Do you watch him?

[Unknown Speaker]

Absolutely not. I have kept trying to. Michael can attest this. How many warnings have I given out about my dad?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

It is a matter of time until he forgets to turn it off and you're with him while he's taking a. Or walking around the house naked with his robe open. Which by the way isn't awesome to see when you come visit him in the morning.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

78 year old Yeti guy is head to toe. He's like a fucking Chia Pet. Nobody needs to see that.

[Bo Simmons]

The crazy thing is, is like when I look at these photos is I feel for him, but we're guilty of it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh.

[Bo Simmons]

Like I go to the you and I go to the bathroom. Those pictures. My phone is with me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, of course.

[Bo Simmons]

And it's like, that's how I pass the time.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

When I'm taking a.

[Unknown Speaker]

Or right before you go to bed. Or. How quickly do you reach. God, this was one little turn your stomach. How quickly upon waking up do you reach for your phone?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And why.

[Bo Simmons]

And not just to turn off the alarm.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And why, like, the alarm's off and.

[Bo Simmons]

Then you're straight into something that dopamine rush.

[Unknown Speaker]

I guess it's.

[Bo Simmons]

That's what I said. It's. It's. Now that we know that we connect with everybody across the world in a matter of seconds, we want to feel like we're heard, seen, appreciated. So we want to go on social media and see how many likes we got, how many comments we got. And that's one thing where. With probably both of our businesses having to be online and maybe you have to share podcasts, you have to share different things. I have to share photos, I have to share artworks and galleries, and I have to kind of. That's what helps drive the business. I have to remind myself to remove it from my life. And the hard part is I'm still learning it because my wife and I have this conversation all the time where I'm guilty, where her and I will sit down at the dinner table and have dinner, but sometimes I'll have just YouTube playing, where maybe I want her to be entertained and enjoy it with me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And she's like, can we have dinner? And I'm like, you're right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

But I'm learning that balance of, like, you can have that stuff, but you have to have a healthy relationship with it.

[Unknown Speaker]

You have to control it. It can't control you.

[Bo Simmons]

Because I think social media, and not just social media, our phones, is probably the most addictive drug we have.

[Unknown Speaker]

Maybe my dad has it nailed. I mean it. Honestly, I've said this many times. I could. I could buy him a brick and call it a cell phone. Like a literal. Like red McNear. Common. It would serve about the same purpose.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because I'll ask him. Dad, like, dad, I've been trying to call you for six hours. Yeah, I was playing golf. I'm calling you back right now. What's up? I don't even remember why I was calling you, but it was important in the moment. Okay. Hope you figured it out. Yeah, he had a great round of golf. Uninterrupted.

[Bo Simmons]

I think we just gotta enjoy life more. And that's the reality. Is I think that, look, I'm the worst person where I grew up, in a sense, with a good family. But I grew up not feeling welcomed, appreciate or seen. I was like the kid in high school that just didn't get a lot of attention. Tried to go after the most beautiful women, never got them. So what turned into that was an angry teenager, kid that was getting in trouble with the law, getting in fights every week at school. And then that, that may be that younger trauma that that created in a sense has carried into my business life now to where that was perfect timing for men's mental health. But it's kind of one of those things where it now makes me want to do better than anybody else, which is a good thing to have to be motivated and be hungry and to work harder than anybody else in the room. But it creates this divide of enjoying life.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Because in my career you're not promised a 9 to 5, you're not promised income. So you have to work really hard to get the next check. And you need to work really hard to stay above maybe people in your, your sphere or in the same career path as you. And so part of me always thinks if I let my foot off the gas, someone's going to pass me by or I'm not going to be able to put food on the table for my wife and future family. But the reality is that I think that when people actually allow themselves to take a step back and enjoy a hobby, enjoy connecting with other people, I think that your life and your business probably excels more because your mental state is in a lot better spot where you're not clawing at it and you're anxiety ridden of trying to make something the next best thing or stay afloat.

[Unknown Speaker]

How many times have you had this experience or seen it where somebody is doing that, they're clawing their foot on the gas and somebody else who maybe not in the same sphere, but can look at their problem and see it from a view that's not 6 inches in front of their face and provide them a really simple option that when they take it, totally solves the problem that they never considered because you're just smashing your head against the wall. I think that's kind of what happens when you put it in neutral for a second and detach. And I mean, I ask myself this question all the time. How much is enough? What is the end state here? To me, I can say I think I'm in the top three people on earth who've made dumb decisions with money. And it was small amounts of money, but I'm just a retard.

[Bo Simmons]

So I think we all, like, have problems with that. I mean.

[Unknown Speaker]

But then what I realize is I'll ask myself that question. How much is enough? Because don't get me wrong, I like money just like everybody else.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

Your cameras are not free. Actually, I bet you your film cameras are probably more expensive than a lot of digital.

[Bo Simmons]

The films are pretty expensive to keep up with, I bet.

[Unknown Speaker]

But how much do you need? To me, I've landed at wealth is enough money to do what I want to with my time. Yeah, that's really it. Sure. I can appreciate, you know, a lot of people's dream cars are like, you know, super fancy sports cars. To me, it's a badass truck.

[Bo Simmons]

That's me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

If you gave me a Lamborghini, I'd sell it tomorrow.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And I'd go get a badass truck.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

I'd build a 200, $250,000 truck.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And that would be.

[Unknown Speaker]

They have that. That's called the Hennessey Raptor R. I don't know if.

[Bo Simmons]

I don't know if I'd get a Raptor, though.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, obviously you haven't looked at the Hennessy Raptor R, which is exactly a quarter of a million dollars.

[Bo Simmons]

They are cool trucks. I'm just thinking I'd probably. I don't know, I'd build some like, just crazy rig. But anyways, it's.

[Unknown Speaker]

But. And also, though, even if I had enough money to buy one of those, you know, in a month, it would mean far less to you.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

This aspiration of trying to get it or wanting to get it, and then you get it, and eventually you're like, meh, whatevs.

[Bo Simmons]

Well, that's what we do. And I think that's. That's the hard part that I've seen with my own personal life is, you know, I'm like everybody else who probably runs a business. At the beginning of the year, I don't write out. What are they called, like, your yearly. When the New Year's happen. No, like, I write a business plan and I write down, like, goals.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

But. And as I go through those goals and I accomplish them, I don't sit back and celebrate. That's my problem, is that I'll accomplish something and then I'm on to the next thing.

[Unknown Speaker]

I struggle with.

[Bo Simmons]

Onto the next.

[Unknown Speaker]

I really do struggle with that. And especially if you have a consistent habit. I was about to say a consistent habit of being successful. But more than anything, it's the consistency that I think leads to that success. How do you learn to appreciate the successes you have of, a, you never stop, and B, you never fall short. It's this curse of being successful.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And, like, for me, it's, you know, like, one of those goals could be, you know, okay, this year I want to get into two or three more galleries to expand the business and get my. My work in other places of the country. And then you accomplish those. And now you're looking at, how can I get four or five? And you're just like, your initial goal was this, and you're not sitting back and enjoying it and celebrating it. And, you know, I. I thank God that my wife is kind of the voice of reason within my world because she's the one who hears these conversations daily. You know, she's the one who sees the struggles I go through. And, like, recently I had this issue where, you know, there's only so many of us Western photographers. There's not very many of us that are photographing cowboys. I think there's a lot more now because of Yellowstone. And they see the hype and the trend that it's become, and I think it's great because we could have more people out there documenting this lifestyle and keep spreading that. But you. You get competitive no matter what industry you're in. And so there's not many of us, I should say, that are maybe doing, like, the fine art world or are printing our work and selling it for, you know, a good amount of money or whatever the case may be. And I found myself, like, for a week or two, just, like, comparing and feeling, like, defeated because I'm seeing what somebody else has accomplished on social media. And I talked to my wife about it. She's like, did you ever stop and think, like, maybe they look at your work and they think, how is Bo selling his work in galleries? How is he doing this? How is he doing that? And I was like, no. I just looked at what I see they're doing online, and I equated that to doing better than myself. And it made me feel weak, and it made me feel insecure, and it brought up. I have a lot of envy and jealous issues within my career because I want to be at the top. You know, who doesn't? You want to do the best you can. And I had a moment of realization where I was like, you know what? Like, And I talked to. I lead a men's Bible study at my house every week, and I talk to those guys in my group, and they're like, I challenge you to pray for him, that person that you're jealous over. And I didn't even think about it. I was just like, that's so weird to think of, like, pray for somebody else's success when I'm trying to compete with them. And I remember I did, I prayed when I was in the shower and I was like, lord, this is a difficult prayer. This is hard for me to come to you with because I want to be in my mind better than this person. But I hope that you bring them any blessings. I hope that you continue to help their career grow, and I hope that they continue to do great things. And it was almost like, you know, whether you're a God fearing man or not or anybody listening, I think the important lesson behind what I'm getting at is that I think the second we can kind of free ourselves a little bit from that torment and understand that there's enough to go around, there's enough for all of us to win. But maybe there's one or two people that you're competing with or you look at. Maybe people look at me and hate me because they see the work that I'm doing, but they've never met me.

[Unknown Speaker]

They don't hate you, they hate your success.

[Bo Simmons]

That's what it is. And I realize that it's people online that I'm comparing to that I've never met. So I haven't even given them a fair chance to get to know them. But I think that the reality is that if we can actually hope the best for people and celebrate other people's wins, I think that's a whole lot healthier of a lifestyle and mentality to have. And I'm saying that as somebody that struggles with that on a daily basis.

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know if God wants you to pray in the shower.

[Bo Simmons]

I know I probably should have.

[Unknown Speaker]

He doesn't want to see guys with their wieners out praying for stuff.

[Bo Simmons]

I'm not the typical guy that gets on, you know, on your knees beside the bed.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm not saying you have to do that, but like, like, dude, let's wear a loincloth of something.

[Bo Simmons]

I know, right? He's like, dude, right now he'd be.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, oh, God, come on.

[Bo Simmons]

Right now though, you could have, you could have waited till you got out and got dressed for the day. And yeah, it's funny, but it's. No, I don't know, it's. It's one of those things where. And this. I think this all goes back to our previous Conversation with just social media where it's. We see people's highlight reel of their life, of their career, of what they're doing.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, then there's power to it as well. And I'll tie this into something I know you were involved with. Yeah, North Carolina.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

That brought attention to an area that drastically needed it. So you can't like exercise the whole thing? Well, I mean, you could, but there'd be some good you're removing from that as well because holy cow. The response to that was probably almost too much actually. But what a rapid way to get people's attention on something that they could actually, if they wanted to have some impact on.

[Bo Simmons]

I gotta shout out Nick Palmigano, by the way, because he's the one that introduced us. I reached out to him and was talking to him about, you know, just wanting to expand my story and expand. Because I think the reality is, is I think my story can help others. Excuse me.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, that's right. Don't worry about it. That your old calendar alert.

[Bo Simmons]

But I had my silencer on. On. Sorry about that.

[Unknown Speaker]

No worries. So many times I've received, I have to do the same thing. But my family can call through.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And my daughter, if I don't pick up, her move is several more phone calls.

[Bo Simmons]

I think that's what it is, is I have a pass through. Do you mind if I get rid of that?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, go for it.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

Take your time.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. My daughter will blow my shit up.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. That was my wife and I know that she'll probably call it and I have a pass through.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And I. It's funny you mentioned that because I didn't even think about it. I recently set that up like a month ago.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Now my daughter will blast through and sometimes say I'm doing like a Friday. So up. So I'll stop and I'll answer on the sixth call. Hey, what's going on, sweetheart? Oh, nothing. Just calling to check in, see what you're doing.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Yep. Well, it's so get.

[Unknown Speaker]

You didn't get that I was doing something important after the first call, six calls I didn't answer.

[Bo Simmons]

If I didn't answer once or twice. And you keep trying as I'm busy, but no. So I reached out to Nick because I've worked with him in the past on some things and he's always been kind of a supporter of what Dan and I do with this book and with Tom, and Tom knew him from Ranger up. They worked together and so it kind of became this thing where The North Carolina thing happened because I saw Tim post about it. I direct messaged him and I was like, hey, you know, how's everything going up there? Like, is there anything that, that they need that maybe I can put out online? And he was like, get your ass up here and bring your cameras and photograph everything. And I was like, okay. And at the time I was up in Maine with my wife visiting her family. And I remember we had a 17 and a half hour drive and Sarah from Independence Fund got in touch with me right after Tim DM me. She like, call me like two minutes after that message. And she was like, do you want to come out here? You know, I can put you in touch with Save Our Allies and you can come out and kind of just stay with the guys. And we're doing like wellness checks with people that are stranded up in the mountains. So I was like, yeah, I'm on my drive home, I've got like another 10 hours. I'm gonna be home at like midnight and let me get four hours of sleep repack and I'll drive up to Asheville. Because at the time, you know, we live in Charleston, South Carolina. So it's like a five and a half hour drive. So I got like three and a half, four hours of sleep, repacked my bags and I was like, I'm gonna go up there for a couple days. And where we were sitting is, we were, we had like a little like pop up fob. It was at an elementary school. So I just like set up my tent right there in the lawn. And every day I would go out with some of the guys. We either be in a helicopter or we would take like a side by side or a quad or off road vehicle up in the hills and we would deliver food supplies.

[Unknown Speaker]

Was this your first time being in an environment like that?

[Bo Simmons]

I would say so. Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, first time, we'll call it a disaster environment.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep, first time ever, like photographing that disaster relief, helping out with that stuff. And I forgot the point you made, but when you were talking about when you see things through a different lens, that was me with a body that I found. And it's one of those things as a photographer, you see death online, you see it on a screen.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's way different when it's right there at your feet.

[Bo Simmons]

When it's. Yeah. And I think it was one of those things where it's. I think us photographers have dark imaginations where I knew going up there in my mind as a photographer, I was thinking, I wonder what it'd be like if I did find a body because you get that general curiosity and you know that they're around, you know, what just happened there. The media is not accounting for the amount of bodies that were actually up there. And when I got up there, you know, I was taking photos and portraits of people that we were helping. And I think on like the last day that I was there, I broke away from the group. I went and just took some of the typical like devastation photos. You know, like the gas stations are like leaning off the side of the road. Eight foot creeks were turned into like 40 like yard wide.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Like almost rivers at that point. And there's a young group of guys and people were kind of telling me to be careful because people were being like looted and robbed. And I remember I was along this river edge and there were some younger guys that came out and like they got like chainsaws and all kinds of stuff. And I'm thinking like, I've got this camera, this film camera, it's not worth anything, but I wonder if they're gonna like, you know, give me crap or anything. And I was like, hey fellas, how's it going? We got to talking. You know, I asked them to take their photo and they said yeah, and they kind of, kind of got a kick out of it. And they told me they're with a cadaver team and they're out there just cutting down limbs looking for bodies. They've got some dogs. And then I see like two patrol cars with police officers come down and meet these guys. And I'm like, okay, so these younger like 20 year olds are working with the local police and they're like, do you want to tag along? And I was like, yeah, sure. I was like, have you guys found anything? And they're like, no, we've been out here for three or four days. We have had a couple like false flags, but we haven't found a body. Well, no kidding. Fifteen minutes later I follow them and they're like white unmarked SUV park alongside this road back to the very first spot that I went to. When I first got there four days prior, I was on the other side of the river looking at a gas station that was leaning over it. And now I'm on this polar opposite side and I'm looking at that tree line and there's a canine that's got a lead and he's like pacing back and forth this tree line. And so sure enough, they got a hit, they got a scent. We go over there. You smell it before you see it and it's like debris that's piled up in these trees and it's like half a house with like tires and like just everything that's drifted down into it. And it's almost like causes like beaver dam. And you don't see it until I go down. I kind of use this rope to like leverage myself and climb down the steep embankment. And then I look up into the tree like this beaver dam. And then you see the body in there and it's all mangled up in there and it's been sitting there for nine days and the sun's been beaten on it and you can't even tell what skin color that person was originally because they're just black from just the sun. And, and it's one of those things where it's like I said, you like, you can take a photo of a dead body because you're looking through a lens. It's separating that emotion. But when you're actually sitting there studying it and kind of looking at it and you have the smell and you can see that their body's bloated. It's. It was, it was hard to kind of see it, you know, and it's. I've. I've got a strong mentality where you can kind of decompartmentalize that stuff, but when you're not expecting it and all of a sudden 15 minutes later you actually do find one and you're like, man, that was someone's life. And you don't know how many others could be in that. That so called like nest of debris. You know, there's an officer who was there who I took his photo, him and his canine. And he's like, he was like, the reality is we found like families most of the time it's not just one. And they asked me if I want to like stick around, you know, because they were going to be cutting limbs, tearing out those trees, removing all that debris just to get the body out. And they told me it was going to take like four hours. And I was like, it's not really worth, like, I don't necessarily need to see that. You know, you've seen enough to where it's like, what are you going to see after that? I mean, a body is just going to completely dismember itself when you pull it out. And he was like, to be honest, it's not worth seeing. You know, it's just. It gets more graphic than what you're seeing here. And I went back to camp and I was talking to Some of the veterans that were there working, and, you know, some of them have obviously been exposed to plenty of that overseas. And they're like, was that your first one? I was like, yeah, I was like, that was the first one. And I've seen them on, like, car wrecks and stuff like that, or a family member dying, but nothing like, kind of like that. And it's. It's weird. I mean, I feel for a lot of those people up in those areas, you know, Tennessee and Asheville and all those people that were affected, because, I mean, even talking to people, they had family members that they haven't even talked to for weeks, that they didn't know where they were. And unfortunately, I mean, the reality is they're probably gone, and I don't know if they ever recovered them.

[Unknown Speaker]

Did you photograph the body?

[Bo Simmons]

I did.

[Unknown Speaker]

Mm. That's probably a tough one to look back on.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, it's still on my computer.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

It's still on my phone. And there's no need for me to go back and look at it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yep.

[Bo Simmons]

It's kind of. I took one photo where you can kind of just see, like, a hand, and then I kind of left, like, the main photo out because I was like, that's all you need. The part of me also thought, like, here's the dark, morbid thing of being a photographer is you want to document life because you see the beauty and death. But then when you really sit down that night and you don't have your camera anymore, and you think about, like, that was somebody that pride of family, and that was somebody that was breathing, that is now gone, I think it sets in and you realize, like, you're almost thinking, like, I didn't need to take that photo. Like, there's really no need for it. What purpose is it going to serve? I'm not posting it. It's not going anywhere. It's just sitting on a hard drive or whatnot. And maybe it was just more of a thing where I needed to do it, to feel that emotion later on, to then go and. And share that with others. But it's. It's a weird thing. I mean, I feel for photojournalists, and, you know, I've always wanted to be a combat photographer. You know, I've always thought it'd be neat to. To go to different regions and different places that you see that every day.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Until you step on a landmine.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. True. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Pros and cons, man.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's. Yeah, it's a weird thing. And you Know, there was times where I got the call to go to Ukraine the week that it was happening, and I just couldn't because I was in Texas working on a project.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

But it was a matter of like, hey, 48 hours, we want to put you on a C17. And I was like, that sounds great. I would love to, but.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, you might love to, but some of this stuff is. Be careful what you wish for, man.

[Bo Simmons]

Especially for the footage that you see that's going on over there with, like, the drones and all that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Have you seen the pictures?

[Bo Simmons]

Haunting.

[Unknown Speaker]

Have you seen the pictures of these fields covered in fiber optic wires?

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Holy.

[Bo Simmons]

Or those spider webs that go over, like, the roads just to keep the drones from blowing up trucks and all that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

If that's.

[Unknown Speaker]

Find one of those pictures if you can, man. These fiber. This is not something that I think anybody. I don't think when I was. I've been out for a good amount of time now, but I don't remember ever having a conversation about this level of drone warfare. I am so glad I am not in the game.

[Bo Simmons]

If that's the future of warfare.

[Unknown Speaker]

The Future is like 10,000 of them swarming you.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's not one on a fiber optic, which is bad enough, by the way.

[Bo Simmons]

And they're. They're big drones, too.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Look at these fields. And that's a minor one, too. There's just.

[Bo Simmons]

That's crazy.

[Unknown Speaker]

There's pictures of just.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, it's like spider webs.

[Unknown Speaker]

50X of that much fiber off the cable.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

It has completely changed the face of warfare.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, right there, that. That top left one on Reddit. You can see more.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes. Oh, my God.

[Bo Simmons]

It's not a big image, but that's crazy. Wow. I mean, do you think that's gonna, like, go into, like, the Geneva Convention, though? Like drone warfare on this level?

[Unknown Speaker]

Man, I don't know, because I don't know what their threshold is. They're trying. They're trying to, in a way, put boundaries on the most inhumane act possible, taking another person's life. Like, hey, let's set some boundaries here.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, to the person getting killed. I don't. You know, it's like.

[Bo Simmons]

Have you seen those videos, though? The drones hovering? And you can see like.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[Bo Simmons]

The look on some of those soldiers faces is they're smoking a cigarette and they're just gave up.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Like, they're staring at the drone and they're just like, just do it already. And it's. It's traumatic. There's one video that I saw camera where I found it, but there was.

[Unknown Speaker]

You got to be careful. These rabbit holes. You go down.

[Bo Simmons]

No, I know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because one will beget another.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which will be. Get not a lot of sleep for about a week.

[Bo Simmons]

No. And I don't want to see them. But there was one that I saw that it wasn't graphic. It didn't show, like somebody being detonated by one, but it was just like probably minutes before. And there was like in these trenches, like some Ukrainian soldiers. And there's one guy just. His hands are just shaking because you could hear the buzzing. You hear the drone in the background of the video. And it's like. Like trying to find.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And you can literally hear in the background, like it finds somebody. And you hear it just like hauling ass. And you hear it detonate. And then you just see these guys sitting in this trench. Like, if it finds you, you can't do anything about it.

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know what you can.

[Bo Simmons]

Like, if you're getting shot at by another soldier, you might be able to run for cover or find a way to evade, to flank to shoot back. But when you're like being like, hunted by this, like, machine with that has thermal.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

There's nothing you can do to outrun it. Maybe you can shoot it. But those things are so fast.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, there are videos, plenty of them where they're getting shot at. The drone is. And I mean, good luck.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I wish.

[Bo Simmons]

Especially with a rifle round like a 5, 5, 6 or.

[Unknown Speaker]

I wish marksman soup was like it is in the John Wick movies where you can clearly not aim and hit everything.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not so much.

[Bo Simmons]

Even bird shot on one of those things is going to be a. Still a tough, tough shot.

[Unknown Speaker]

I heard somebody the other day. Well, what they need to do is they need to find professional skeet shooters. Those guys over there, they'll just detonate those drones. And I have to think of myself. I want to be like, you're. You're an idiot.

[Bo Simmons]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

For one. But they just don't understand a warhead coming at you at a high velocity. And you shoot it. Say it were to go off. Guess who's getting peppered with all that.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, yeah. All that shrapnel and debris that's coming out on top of you. Because by the time you shoot it, it's probably 40 yards away from you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Likely coming in at a good clip.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So you're still getting that blast and everything else that's coming out on top of you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I Don't think the answer to that is the fourth Russian skeet shooting brigade. No, I just don't think that's the solution. And the fiber optic stuff is defeating, you know, the jamming capability, all that stuff. Do you EMP it? That kills your stuff as well too?

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

Meanwhile, you know, China apparently has the ability to crank out 700,000 drones per month. That's crazy. Have you seen some of the drone shows that they do over there? These like.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh yeah, like the, for the fireworks shows and all that. Yeah, worse.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're.

[Bo Simmons]

I think so too. I have this. I have this conversation that's controversial, but I see them bleeding in the next 10 years.

[Unknown Speaker]

The issue is going to be their population.

[Bo Simmons]

That's.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's what their one child pop. Well, they're one child policy for so long. Their population is aging rapidly. It's actually declining.

[Bo Simmons]

Oh, is it? Okay?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, they're not going to have the ability to be a global superpower just due to population age, technology wise. Curious. But yeah, their one child policy and also focusing on only men has long term consequences for survival of your society.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I know they have like their own issues. It's just that thought process of, you know, you're hearing talks of them already harvesting on the moon before we are and all that weird stuff where you're.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like harvesting what though?

[Bo Simmons]

Helium 9, I think that's what it's called. I could be mistaken.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why would somebody go to the moon for that? What do they. Oh, they do it for chips, right? Something like that. Superconductors.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, superconductors. Because it cools off things like instantly to where they're planning 10 years ahead. And that's just like from what I heard, online podcast seeing stuff where you're like, what? Like China's kind of beat us to the moon and they're harvesting all this stuff and you don't know what's true, what's not. You know, you take it with a grain of salt.

[Unknown Speaker]

You choose a little. I'm choosing to focus on the yeti content that I'm seeing on Instagram.

[Bo Simmons]

That is great.

[Unknown Speaker]

The VO3. Yeah, those are pretty awesome. That and babies doing podcasts are some of my favorites recently.

[Bo Simmons]

Have you done one yet?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, because I think it is just a software plugin. Yeah, that was looking at doing it. Like, do I really want to pay 250 bucks a month just to dick around with this thing?

[Bo Simmons]

I don't know.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is that much if you Want to use VO3? I don't know if they call it VEO3 or VO3, but that's what it is. Okay, but if you're able to do that stuff on the third version, what does the fifth version look like?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, well, I mean, this whole, you know, the talk of where we're going with social media, with AI and all that, I mean, that's why I enjoy being removed and being out on these ranches as much as I can. Because you almost step into a different time.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

You know, even. Even if, you know, all the young cowboys I know out there, you know, they've got Snapchat, they've got stuff on their phone, but for the most part.

[Unknown Speaker]

They'Re on their horse just like.

[Bo Simmons]

No, they're not doing that. They're not that.

[Unknown Speaker]

What would happen if they did?

[Bo Simmons]

We. They get yelled at.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

[Bo Simmons]

Real fast. Because you're there to work. You know, you're dealing with livestock, you're dealing with animals. But if it's after and they're like, at the ranch, in the bunk house, you know, they're Snapchatting some girl or five girls that they're talking to, whatever the case may be.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

But it's just that funny world where it's. It's that almost escape back to our roots, back to. And touch the land that I enjoy because it allows me to slow down, appreciate it, document it, put it out there for others to enjoy. Because my goal is I may have learned how to ride a horse and work cattle, and I'll never be a cowboy because I don't do it full time, and that title belongs to those who do it. I might have learned at a cowboy, I might have learned how to keep up. But my biggest thing is I'm a photographer, and my job is to document that lifestyle and share it with the rest of the world. That hopefully it motivates people that maybe didn't grow up in it. Like, I didn't to say, hey, you know what? Maybe I'm sick of a desk job. Maybe I want to get out there and. And feed America and preserve land and be there with, you know, your neighbors and tend to livestock. And I think that that's. To me, when I look at it, photography is kind of one of those things where you're pushing a button. Even if you're shooting film or you're shooting digital, I don't know if there's really much talent in it. You know, you might have a good eye. Maybe you can teach somebody to have an eye. But the important thing is that a photo can elicit Emotions and a photo can inspire. And so I guess that's what I try and do with my work, is to try and capture less of the pretty western stuff. You know, I think that this industry, and when I say industry is like the Western and cowboy community is that it becomes romanticized a little bit and it becomes like everybody wants to be it, or everybody's going out buying boots and hats and they want to like, kind of maybe play the dress up part. And I. And I've always kind of argued against that where boots and a hat is just a tool, you know, everybody can wear it. There's no gatekeeping with that. But it's just respect the culture that it comes from.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And I think that at the end of the day, we just have to acknowledge that that kind of work is so different than what you see on social media, because there's a lot of even other photographers that I see that maybe are getting into it, that maybe capture it wrong. You know, like, there's etiquette with photographing a horse, and most won't believe it, but their body language will tell you everything. You know, if a horse's ears are back, you know, it's uncomfortable, it's not happy in the position it's in. And a lot of photographers will photograph horse's ears back. You know, maybe a cowboy is readjusting the reins in that moment. And so when that goes out there, it just looks kind of bad. And so there's a lot of like, just steps to it that I think it takes to understanding it before you want to go out and photograph it just because it's trendy. It's like probably same with veterans. You want to sit down and get to know them and understand their lifestyle before you're going to be documenting it. Because you can probably portray them the wrong way.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not intentionally, but looking backwards now, especially given the type of photography that you're doing. How wild was the fashion photography?

[Bo Simmons]

You know, it was a fun part of my life. I can't knock it completely because I did it for a decade and I had to unfortunately work up in LA and go to New York and do that whole lifestyle. The downside to it was I was becoming a man that I wasn't raised to be. I grew up with a traditional family, mom and dad still together. And I was thrown in from living in kind of a poor desert town in California where there's really nothing going on out there, to being. Or to living in Laguna beach, one of the most expensive cities. And then you're driving up to la and you're working in an industry where you're working with nothing but beautiful people, men and women, and you realize that your life becomes that. And so you're going to all these events to try and show face and you're trying to work with these big, the biggest brands, the biggest models and all that. And your life kind of just becomes very shallow. And so there was a part of me that was like setting my standards of women like at an all time high. And I realized I was just becoming kind of this shell of who I used to be and was losing friends and family and relationships over it. To where one day, I think that's what helped motivate the move for me to leave California. Like one day I just decided to like quit doing fashion. I was like, I don't want to be this person anymore. There's a bigger calling. There's something else that I want to photograph that tells more stories of everyday people. And it's not to knock that industry whatsoever. There's a, there's a purpose for being a fashion photographer or doing that type of work or celebrity stuff. But I just knew the lifestyle that I was kind of sucked into and I realized that like I want to photograph everyday people. I want to do something that's going to be bigger than myself. And I think that that's when I started photographing cowboys because I got invited to come out to a ranch and it was one of those like guest ranches, you know, like a dude ranch that you have in here in Montana or something where you get away for a weekend. And you know, I thought that that was like the cowboy type stuff, you know. And then I met some of those older cowboys that maybe had a cowboy job back in the day. And they just retired and then went to work on a dude ranch to just make some money in their 60s and whatnot. And they were telling me they're like, you need to go out to an actual like cow calf operation and see what real cowboys look like. You know, miles and miles after the blacktop ends and the barbed wire begins. And it came to this point where I slowly worked my way up to some of these bigger ranches, you know, like a king ranch or four sixes or you know, the ros in Arizona, Bell Ranch, New Mexico. All these big places took years of building relationships and negotiating. Hey, I want to come out. Here's my work. And then allowing, or them allowing me, excuse me, to like ride their horses, which are very expensive animals. And now it's, you know, I'VE gotten blessed with the opportunity where, you know, as a matter of fact, in a week, I have to go to the Parker Ranch in Hawaii. It's the biggest ranch in Hawaii. It's on the Big Island. It's one of the ranches that'll be in my next book. But, you know, just to get to travel around and then you get to know these people. You know, there's plenty of cowboys that I've, like, gone to their weddings. I've babysat their kids. You just build this connection and this awesome community of people where I don't want to throw shade or knock the rest of the community of people that are maybe trying to get into and photograph it. But I think that there's a. There's a proper way of doing things. And I just hope that people want to photograph it because, like I said, they want to share a story bigger than themselves, and they want to honor that culture rather than doing it based on likes and clicks because it's trending or it's popular right now.

[Unknown Speaker]

How'd you get into photography in the first place?

[Bo Simmons]

You know, it's funny enough, my dad was a photographer back in the day. I didn't learn it from him, but I think subconsciously, my grandmother who passed away was a big world traveler, Went to, like, Egypt, Asia, went all over the place. So she got me into traveling. And my family and I. When I was 16, so 18 years ago, we went to Hawaii and we went to the island of Kauai. And I remember. I think they got me a little camera, like a little cheap one for Christmas, and we went there. And I remember just, like, leaving, like, ditching my family and just, like, taking photos of, like, the sunsets, palm trees, waterfalls, all that pretty landscape stuff. But I fell in love with, like, going home and looking at the photos, like, on an old computer or whatnot back then. And I think from there, I was going through this phase of my life where I was like, oh, I like being. I like doing photography, but I want to be a tattoo artist. So then I worked at a tattoo shop for two years, and then from there, I was like, maybe I'll be. Maybe I'll go into the Marine Corps or I'll become a cop. I was just, like, a lost guy that was bouncing around, trying to figure out my purpose and what I wanted to do. And then I think around the age, like, 19, 20 is when I really, like, bought an actual DSLR digital camera, really got serious with it. And funny enough, out of high school, I think I graduated like a 1.4 GPA.

[Unknown Speaker]

Strong.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Like, best score you get.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yep.

[Bo Simmons]

And elite, if you will. Yes. So much so that I failed one of my finals and had to go to summer school my senior year. Couldn't walk how to get my diploma mailed. So family missed out on that opportunity again, like, Ivy League student, then decided, I know I'm not dumb, I just didn't apply myself and I don't care. But there's this art school in LA that I want to go to, and I want to go in as a film director with and, like, minor in photography. Like, I want to make movies and do all that. And it came to the point where I was four months in and I was spending, like, thousands of dollars to, like, learn how to open Photoshop. And I was like, well, I've taught myself how to do this. Like, why am I spending all this money? And I'm going to be $150,000 in debt after two and a half years of this school. And so I quit. I. I remember I drove home to the desert and my parents were like, oh, are you, like, in between semesters? And I was like, no, I left school. They're like, what do you mean? I was like, I quit. I don't want to be there. And my dad was so pissed, he was like, we put our credit on the line for you. Your mom's credit is on there. You already owe 25, 000. You've only been four months in. Like, you need to go back to school. And I was like, look, I don't want to be that kid. I'll find a way to make it up to you guys. I'll find a way to make it work. I'm not going back to school. I was like, I got a 4.0 when I left. I just need to do that to convince myself I wasn't dumb. So I think my parents already had a doubt and understandably so in, like, the art world and being a photographer and how hard it is to make it. And I was just like, I'm going to find a way. And so from there, I moved in with them for about four months. And then I started dating a girl in Laguna beach, and that's what made me move. And then I kind of just slowly worked up to photographing fashion in la.

[Unknown Speaker]

So not traditionally trained? Not that I'm aware of. I'm sure there's schools that teach definitely photography, for sure.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And I think that the reality is that I'm kind of an advocate for anything art don't go to school.

[Unknown Speaker]

Really?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And I know that that's. That some people that might have degrees in it will disagree, but I think that it can teach you the fundamentals. But what teaches you is life experience. I've seen plenty of photographers, maybe even like myself that didn't have any formal training or any education. They just networked and they busted their ass and they got really good at taking photos or creating movies and now they're at like the all time high. Yeah, it just, it's, it's how hard you want to work and how much do you want to network and connect that's going to get you there. And I think that's the reality is just life experience where if you're going to become a doctor or a lawyer. Yeah. You got to go to school.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. If we're going to go back to the drill, to the head, you got.

[Bo Simmons]

To go to school for that. Well, I mean, you and I can try.

[Unknown Speaker]

We can go grab somebody to go to school for that. I think to get insurance.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes, yes, totally. To have your practice, whatever.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean technically we could go to Home Depot and give it a whirl, but yeah, that's not advertised or not advocated. So. I know you, I know you shoot on film. Film, yes. If you were a digital guy, what would be your dream camera? Oh, probably a controversial question.

[Bo Simmons]

It's hard to say.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's not like there's only one brand out there. It is.

[Bo Simmons]

Well, it's funny because I don't keep track of them all. Like, because I've shot film, I haven't really like stayed up to date with what's the newest thing. So I might, I'll say a camera. And maybe people listening will be like, that's so old. But I would probably go with maybe like a. Probably a medium format digital, like a Hasselblad or.

[Unknown Speaker]

Those are not cheap.

[Bo Simmons]

No, they're not cheap, no. But if you want, I guess like the quality and detail or. I was like, when I was doing digital, I was a Canon guy.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Which people obviously will knock. There's plenty of Sony and Nikon and all that. And I think Sony kind of took a lead for a while.

[Unknown Speaker]

Who knows?

[Bo Simmons]

I don't know. But I know they were doing really good with like video stuff and all that. So that's why I said I think I would probably do medium format. And it would probably either be, yeah, Hustleblood. Those Phase ones are nice. Those are expensive because those are only things that I've seen that I'm like, oh, Those are kind of cool. But the reality is that I love digital for its purposes, but when you. When you're a digital photographer, you kind of become like a pixel peeper. Have you ever heard that term? No. Where you're just, like, obsessing over, like, you're, like, obsessing over, like, the resolution. How many megapixels? Like, oh, this camera is 100 megapixels. When you start to lose, like, the. The art that it is. And I think that for me, personally, I did digital for about three or four years, and then for six years, I did film and kind of made my name doing more the film campaign stuff for companies. And it allowed me to slow down. It allowed me to retrain my brain to think. I only have 10 photos on this roll of film, so I need to be preemptive with how I'm capturing this photo. I need to pay attention to lighting, to the subject, and then it becomes an art. And not to say that shooting digital isn't. It's just. I think all of us, we get so used to just, like, clicking thousands of photos and bursting, and then we go back and look and we say, yep, we got it. There's no sense of, did you get it anymore? Like, you know, you got the shot. Yeah, for me, there's so many times I go home, I didn't get the shot, and I spent thousands of dollars going out to that ranch, and I thought that that one moment was gonna be such a cool photo, and I didn't get it. So now I'm going to go back out and I. And it's just become this thing where I enjoy the idea of, like, an early Christmas where you send in your film and a week later you get it back, and you get to dive back into those memories again and see things that maybe you hoped you got that you didn't, and see things that you were like. Man, that was probably a bland moment, but you're like, all the detail and those spurs with the muddle over them. And I love that shot. And then it becomes an artwork, and people buy it and they put in their homes and. And then I. I personally realized that I'm like, that was a cowboy that I was creating a really cool relationship with that is now in some home in Europe or is in a home in, like, New York or somewhere. We were like, that's so cool to think that I was out there on these ranches photographing these people telling their story, and somebody found it so interesting enough that they're putting in their home to enjoy every day and. And tell that story. And I think that that's what kind of makes this whole thing worth it and keeps the message of the cowboy in my mind somewhat alive, is that if we live in a digital age, unfortunately, that's how we preserve history, is we have to document it. And I. I don't want to just be a photographer that takes photos that live on a screen. I want to blow them up and put them in museums and have them become archival, where, when I'm long gone, maybe there's somewhere still out there existing. I don't know.

[Unknown Speaker]

How do most people up their photographs? Because I don't know if you know this. We're all expert photographers with our.

[Bo Simmons]

With our phones, just like you said. It's funny because, like, you know, my wife and her friends and everybody else that, you know, they know I'm a photographer, they're like, oh, give Bo the iPhone. I suck at iPhone photos. Like, I see girls that know how to get, like, the right angle of selfies, and I'm, like, just butchering it. But I think in regards to, like, how, like. What do you mean? Like, how do people mess up their photos?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I think probably the answer you would likely give as a professional is they just don't put any thought into the photo that they're taking. They're just trying to capture something.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay, I see where you're going with it. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because your average person is going to whip out an iPhone, like you said. They'll go vertical for the gram. What are they? What's a portrait mode for the other one? What is it, Michael? Portrait. Vertical and portrait.

[Bo Simmons]

Landscape and landscape and portrait. Yeah, of course.

[Unknown Speaker]

The fucking young guy knows.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. And I'm like the kind of guy that. Man, you kind of have to play with the rules with, like, the portrait real type thing. Yeah. I'm like such a landscape guy. I'm portrait as far as photos I take of people.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

All day long as portrait. But, like, if I could create reels in a landscape format and it would do just as well, I would. The reality is just. I don't know, Instagram has its algorithm, but I think. I think photographers mess up. I think they just rush it. I think they rush things. They don't take their time.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, what do you look? I mean, are you looking for symmetry? Are you looking for something? Where do you start when you're looking for a.

[Bo Simmons]

Kind of train your eye into taking that?

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, obviously there is, like, the rule of thirds, which people can just Google that.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

But you know, lighting kind of matters, you know, the subject itself. What. I just feel like a lot of people, especially given terabyte hard drive on an iPhone, I don't even know how big the pictures are, but I know you can have thousands in there of what you take. And I'm sure most people, as they scroll back through their phone, like, I could probably get rid of almost all of these.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, here's. Okay, so here's what I will say, I think tips for.

[Unknown Speaker]

For the moron on the street with an iPhone. This could be a book that would.

[Bo Simmons]

Be iPhone or even just a regular camera is. I think a lot of people get scared to get close to their subject, especially when it's people we're so used to, like stepping way back and kind of photographing things from a distance, where when you really get close to your subject almost to a point of uncomfortability, like you're so close, you're kind of looking to their soul. Like, you're really capturing the essence of, like, the details in their eyes, their lips, their facial expressions. I thoroughly enjoy capturing details like, you know, whether it's. If I'm out there on a ranch and we just got done, you know, castrating, you know, and a cowboy's got bloody hands from cutting all day and getting the detail of, like, the dirt and the blood in his hands and the calluses and cuts all over as he's sharpening his knife. That stuff, to me tells so much more of a bigger story than getting just a cowboy on horseback running on the horizon with the sunset behind him.

[Unknown Speaker]

Both of those are dope photos.

[Bo Simmons]

They're dope photos.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

But I think most people would lean on, like I said before, Romancing the West and kind of capturing those, like, iconic, yeah, Marlboro man kind of shots, rather than capturing, like, the mundane details that actually tell what this lifestyle is about. And so for me, just whether you're a photographer in the cowboy world or not, you're just taking photos on your phone. I think it's allowing yourself to get closer and get comfortable with photographing people. And lighting has a big thing to do with it. You know, it's like sometimes if you're photographing people, the sun's like right on their face. You just get these shadows underneath their eyes and. And it makes all of us look unflattering. And it's like, if it's a harsh day, put the sun on their back and get that backlit kind of situation. But again, it's one of those conversations where I can Give tips. And some people are like, well, I purposely take photos like that because of this. And it's kind of the eye of the beholder. You know, everybody can be their own artist and create some beautiful things. Even if I say this is how I do it, somebody would do it differently and probably come out with even better results.

[Unknown Speaker]

What's your bucket list? Photography trip. You got anywhere that's just before you die, you want to go there and photograph person, place or thing?

[Bo Simmons]

I think, because obviously we're talking about honeymoon. Like New Zealand would be really cool.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's amazing.

[Bo Simmons]

I think it'd be awesome to go there and photograph stuff, you know, now that I've been kind of photographing cowboys for eight years, coming up on a decade here soon. Once I get this book done, there's a part of me that wants to travel around the world and photograph cowboys from different cultures.

[Unknown Speaker]

That'd be amazing.

[Bo Simmons]

So I think that's a big dream bucket list. You know, cowboys of Argentina, the gauchos, vaqueros in Mexico. I've already started going on to Mexico and photographing them. You know, going to Australia, that'd be incredible. Go like out in the bush and the outback and.

[Unknown Speaker]

Amazing country.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So I guess that's just those types of things. And you know, I've recently met some people that they go to Africa and they photograph like the tribes and the people down there. And I've always, it's always been one of those things where I've never had like a strong interest in it. Like I'm kind of like, okay, it's kind of like the National Geographic stuff or it's more photojournalism. But there's a part of me, outside of photographing cowboys that I do find interest as a photographer of other things like war torn countries, something devastating just happened, or natural disasters, and photographing those dark and sad photos that tell a big story.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And there's a part of me that like, if I could take those film cameras and go photograph like tribes in Africa, I better get some cool photos.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Make sure that black and white portraits and just really cool, like gritty type stuff.

[Unknown Speaker]

Make sure they don't believe that you're taking a piece of their soul.

[Bo Simmons]

Very true.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because they'll eat you.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. You know, that's.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm not sure that those. What I just said is actually true, but you should double check.

[Bo Simmons]

It is true. It's also true with a lot of Native American nations.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

I don't know about current day. I think a lot of people A little bit more used to it. But I know there's still some nations that lean against having their photo taken for that reason. And so I know that there's some places in Africa that probably still feel that way as well. But there's. I know there's some places that are pretty used to having us gringos go down there and.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, Africa take their photo. Vast continent.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah, for sure. But, like, if you think of Mozambique, Kenya, all those places, they're so used to it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

People can use.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cool. I've been there. I spent about three days there. Yeah. It's. Again, you want to talk about appreciation? I watched a woman walk into what they called a medical clinic, and I'm going to throw some huge air quotes on that. Medical clinic gave birth and wheelbarrowed home her baby the same day.

[Bo Simmons]

No kidding. See, that's what I'm talking about. Like, things like that. If you could photograph that. Yeah, that's some powerful images right there.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Or the women. You know what you see on National Geographic, it's the women's job to go find water. They put it on their head, walked with them to their water source. And you're looking at it like, I wouldn't let my pet drink this water. And that's. That's their job. That's their water source for the day. I mean, you want to talk about appreciation.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. That's going back to what I was saying. I mean, if you have clean water, the house, I don't care if you're renting or you own a home. Just like a roof over your head.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Like, we have a lot more. We're a lot luckier than most places, I'll say that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you have a favorite photo out of all the ones you've taken?

[Bo Simmons]

I don't do the least favorite photo, do I? I'm trying to think if I do. Now that I can think off the top of my head, I don't have a favorite because I think it's one of those things where every one of them that I take and whether I post it online or maybe it becomes an artwork for a gallery, and maybe some people ask me that question. It becomes. It has its own story. So for me, they're all great stories. They all have different memories. They all serve their purpose differently. So there's not one that really, like, stands out, but there's, like, there's. I think there's some that I've taken where. And it's rare, but there's some that I've taken where I'VE gone home and been like, oh, that shot came out and like been in love with it. And I say it's rares because I'm probably just a very big critic of my work.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Perfectionist.

[Bo Simmons]

A bit perfectionist. And that's a sin in its own. Where it's like, I go home and I know most people look at it, that'll enjoy it and maybe it's worthy of going in a book and it's great, but I think I'm just my own worst enemy where I look at it and I'm like, yeah, I love it, but like, I wish I would have done this a little differently or.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, the artist is always going to see the flaws. Yeah, for sure, dude. What do you want to close it out with? We've been at it for shit, two and a half hours.

[Bo Simmons]

Has it really been that long?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Wow. Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Close to it at least.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

You want to leave people with where they can get and support this book or how can they. Where can they support your. I mean, because this is obviously one portal we were looking at. Do you have a portlet shows and highlights your other work?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. So, I mean, right now, you know, my full time is, you know, being a fine artist. So that's what makes my money. So I have galleries. I've got a gallery called House of Swells that does some great work in Los Angeles. They produce like affordable prints for just entry level collectors that are looking to just put some art on their walls. And I've got all the way up to galleries, you know, more in the fine art world. Markowitz Fine Art, Trimper Gallery, a few others and all that's on my website. So it's just B. Simmons photography dot com.

[Unknown Speaker]

Let's check it out, Michael.

[Bo Simmons]

And that's kind of. You're not going to see all like the cowboy documentary stuff that's on my Instagram. So it's just Simmons. That's where you're going to see my everyday type stuff that I photograph on ranches. And then more of the fine art stuff is on my website.

[Unknown Speaker]

I want to close it out with looking at some of your stuff on the website.

[Bo Simmons]

But that's been, you know, my. My bread and butter. And that's what I've been working on while I'm up here. Actually right now visiting you is I'm working on go to artwork. I'm going down to Padlock Ranch down on the Montana, Wyoming border and they'll be one of the ranches in my books.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, that's awesome. Right there.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. That photo right there. Actually, funny enough, is as simple as it is with, like, just an old hat on a post. That was my hat. I was taking photos of that tree line, and that's on the back side of the Tetons out in Idaho. And that was about three feet of snow. I got frostbite, my left thumb, because I was out there for too long with my gloves off, taking a photo of that tree line with the fog, and I took my hat off as it was snowing, and I put on the fence post for about 20 minutes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

And then walked back over about 10 yards and saw that. And I was like, man, that's cool. Like this. And I just stuck to the hat. But that's kind of going back. Like, you're saying a lot of detail.

[Unknown Speaker]

Close ups with the detail. I really like it, though.

[Bo Simmons]

Just, like, how worn those chaps are, you know, like, they've seen that leather, has seen the sun. It's got blood stains on it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

So when people go online, you know, like, I've got three different collections that people can go through. I've got, like, a western collection. I've got an equestrian collection, which is, like, polar opposite, you know, it's just all hogs. No, it's like. It's like.

[Unknown Speaker]

That'd be a. I would buy that book. Hogs.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, Just dongs. You could get in, like, this level, though. Michael. You would buy that book. Right?

[Bo Simmons]

Speaking of which, I actually had that recent thought. I was. I was thinking that was horse.

[Unknown Speaker]

Dog.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. It was a funny conversation. I was like, hey, us guys compare, you know, like, we joke around. We always say we have the tiniest, tiniest, you know, dicks in the world.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

I'm like, do animals compare? Do you think women like female animals? Look at male animals and like, no.

[Unknown Speaker]

We were out at a ranch not too long ago. I was there with my daughter, and there was a horse walking around, fully displayed. It was almost touching the ground.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

He. He was the alpha. That. That could be a banger of a book, right?

[Bo Simmons]

Just horse dongs.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Call it horse.

[Bo Simmons]

This is gonna be the quote that I get the most from this show is people like, you're thinking of animal dicks. And I'm like, no. Like, it's just.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm not saying I thought I'm thinking of animal dicks, but sometimes you can think about it.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Think of real life conversations where you're like, yeah. Do female animals judge male animals based on. Probably not.

[Unknown Speaker]

I feel like they do. We have to agree to disagree.

[Bo Simmons]

So. Yeah, I mean, humans do it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yep.

[Bo Simmons]

But anyway, so it's. It's. Yeah, you've got kind of western stuff, got equestrian stuff, like show jumping. And then we've got a series called, like, Americana Collection, which is more like you're. You know, I'm staging Cowboys in, like, 1970s type period stuff where you've got old trucks and you're almost building, like, little sets, but keep on going.

[Unknown Speaker]

Michael.

[Bo Simmons]

Yes. This is kind of more like the equestrian stuff here, but when you go through it and you look at, like, the Americana Collection, there's some. Some cool stuff in there.

[Unknown Speaker]

God, horses are so cool.

[Bo Simmons]

That was kind of a once. I won't say once in a lifetime shot, but, like, on film, you know, you've got the mare on the right, the female horse, and then the gelding is the left horse. So that mare we brought out first. We set up a white backdrop, and we brought the. The gelding out. And they didn't really want to be near each other. Like, he was kind of just keeping his distance, keeping his head down, feeding. And we kind of brought him closer. They kind of, like, wouldn't hold still. They kept moving their heads. And I was about to give up, and I was like, I don't think these two are going to connect their heads, because that was the vision that I had for it. And sure enough, like, he kind of, like, smelled her and nuzzled her. And when he put his head down, I took one shot on film. And even, like, the sound of those film cameras, when that shutter comes down, you can hear it. Yeah. It almost makes horses kind of, like, step back. And sure enough, he did pull away, but I got that one shot. And I guess that's an example what I was talking about, where when I got the film back from the lab and we. We darken printed it and blew it up, I was just amazed at the detail in it and how I was able to get their head so symmetrical. But it's. It's hard to get that with film. I mean, there's so many mistakes that I make that I'm more burned by from the successes that I actually have.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I really like the detail, man.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. But just different stuff. And, you know, a lot of my stuff is. Is the details. And then you've got the bigger, grander scenes. Like, when you go to. Michael, if you go back up to the artworks and go to Americana Collection, you'll see, like, a big difference in these, where you've got kind of more of a set, you Know, you're kind of building more of like, a memory of what might have been a 70s, 80s, 90s kind of era, but. Yeah. So that's kind of my focus right now is going to stash on the.

[Unknown Speaker]

Man on the left.

[Bo Simmons]

Right. That thing is huge. I think it was past his bottom lip. I had mine pretty close to that. And my wife didn't want to kiss me anymore. She's like, all right, you need to shave it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Fair enough.

[Bo Simmons]

That's actually my wife right there on the.

[Unknown Speaker]

The left.

[Bo Simmons]

Lean up against the car. So every once in a while, kind of do a little Easter egg and put her in some of my work. But, you know, that's here in Montana. That's in Livingston.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know what's sad is that your children will never know what a phone booth is.

[Bo Simmons]

That's true. A lot of my. You know. You know, it's even sadder. I just had this conversation that all of us can remember where we were on 9 11.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

For sure. And there's people that will never know that feeling.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

But again, going back. Phone booths are awesome.

[Unknown Speaker]

Or payphones. Yeah. Phone booths are great, especially for the visual. I like it. Washing the horse in the car wash. Why would you not.

[Bo Simmons]

They're in Texas. And funny enough, like most people, like, why would you do that? That's like an everyday thing.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

I see cowboys at.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why would you not do that?

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Use their tools. Not yours.

[Bo Simmons]

That's in Fort Worth.

[Unknown Speaker]

Cows with horns like that really scare the shit out of me.

[Bo Simmons]

What have you thought? I'm curious. I know we're trying to wrap it up, but I'm just curious, kind of your thoughts from the outside of it all of like, kind of the Yellowstone effect of what you've seen that have come from that show. Because I think there's.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think the cat was out of the bag a long time ago.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

What I would caution people against is visiting Montana while wearing a Dutton Ranch T shirt.

[Bo Simmons]

I would agree.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which I have personally seen probably too many times. Yeah. Do what you want, everyone. Live your life. If you want to get your car keyed, wear that shirt. Support.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, Montana has at the most recent census that I can find 1,060,000 people in the state.

[Bo Simmons]

Okay. Okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

And a state. You know how big it is. It's vast. Now, is all of it. Like we were talking here on the way over the western side of it? More as it wraps around a little bit is the Rocky Mountains where all the postcards are taken out east.

[Bo Simmons]

It's really Flat farming, agriculture and ranching.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes. And if you're not into that, you're probably not going to go out there. But there is still so much room.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

For everybody. And it's. It's an interesting conundrum that people find themselves in. They'll say we hate new people coming into town, but the restaurant scene here sucks. Well, guess what? The more people that come, that's going to solve.

[Bo Simmons]

There's a balance to it.

[Unknown Speaker]

There is a balance. I hate people coming into town. I'm really glad we have a Costco.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, so I understand people think that Montana is going to change from the Montana that they knew, just its roots. But welcome to the world. That's what's going to happen. Given enough time in anywhere that has this. I think as an example, you know, Kalispell and Whitefish. And for people not familiar, Whitefish is actually more recognizable to people I meet traveling than Kalispas.

[Bo Simmons]

I would say so.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I actually don't know why that is. It's probably.

[Bo Simmons]

It's on the border of Glacier and the ski resorts.

[Unknown Speaker]

The ski resort would be my guess. They usually have heard of Whitefish, Missoula and Bozeman.

[Bo Simmons]

Yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

Almost nobody has heard of Billings.

[Bo Simmons]

There's kind of a reason for that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Which is, by the way, the largest city in Montana. Those, those places are. They're awesome. And they make their money. Specifically Whitefish and Kalispell in summer, you know, with populations that come in and they visit. It's the money is made. Except for Whitefish has a booming ski season for like Kalispell, though. We will have 2 million people that pass through Kalispell on the way to gnp. No business owner can tell you that that doesn't have an impact.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's how they. It's how they weather the slower months in the winter when it's just the holding population of the city they make. What's the saying? You know, make your hay when the sun's shining or cut it or whatever it is.

[Bo Simmons]

So you avoided becoming a ghost town.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes. And so Montana is going to have to have a balance of growth and people wanting to come here and holding on to the aspect and essence of it that people hold dear. I totally get it. For the people who are sixth or seventh generation Montanas. And it's so funny to listen to locals or people who are from here. For some people, if you've been here for 10 years, you're a Montana. For others, if you're not fourth generation, you're not.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I, it's like, okay.

[Bo Simmons]

I can relate to that though, in a sense. And I'll, I'll bring it around to two similar things. I mean the town I grew up in, you know, in, in the high desert, it was very small in the 90s and now has become big because of the influx of people from la, especially during COVID that were coming and buying second homes and Airbnb. And now you have like in the town of like Joshua Tree, Yucca Valley, pioneer town, like random like five star restaurants popping up. We were like, what? And like my mom and dad even like love it and hate it, you know, I think everybody does. Where on one hand that's the balance.

[Unknown Speaker]

You love the food there, but you hate that people have found out your secret. That's essentially what it is.

[Bo Simmons]

And that's so that's, that's the same argument that I'll say that happened with the Yellowstone and Taylor Sheridan effect. And like I've met Taylor, him and I have done or like kind of, I guess two ships a night in a sense where I know he's busy, we don't communicate whatsoever. It's more so that he's supported my work in some degree where, you know, we both have signed artworks and given them to charity, done some things together. He's allowed me to, you know, come out to the Sixes, you know, the show Landman. My work has been on that for two seasons now or it's going to be on the second season coming up. So I'm appreciative of that. But like, you know, the western community would argue that they love and hate the Yellowstone effect and the reason being is the same thing. They don't like that people from maybe the cities are coming in and maybe in their terms playing dress up. And I can totally agree. But on one hand, the cattle industry is at an all time high. Beef is the most it's ever been. Same with horses. I used to be able to buy a decent horse for five grand and now it's more like 15, 20 grand. So on one hand it's like they hate it, but it still has a positive effect on their lifestyle. It's that weird toss up. You're never going to please everybody, but.

[Unknown Speaker]

Learn to deal with it.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. But anyways, I just appreciate, you know, you have me on. Yeah, of course it's been great talking and kind of sharing and hopefully I have done good by the veteran community, the, the cowboy community. I think my, you know, my goal is my story is not so much important. It's it's the stories of the people that I've met that I'd like to be able to share on outlets and get it out there.

[Unknown Speaker]

Now I'm going to buy one of your prints, put it up in the studio.

[Bo Simmons]

I appreciate it.

[Unknown Speaker]

From the Dong collection.

[Bo Simmons]

We're going to. We're going to make it happen. I think Michael wants that one.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I think if it goes above the flag, oriented down towards him, he'd feel the most at home.

[Bo Simmons]

We could.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Bo Simmons]

Indeed.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Let's make it happen. He knows. Right on, man. Thanks.

[Bo Simmons]

Yeah. Thank you. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.