Episode 399 - Ryan Duey - Cold Water and The Power of Confronting Hardship

Summary

Cleared Hot - Episode 399: Ryan Duey on Cold Water and The Power of Confronting Hardship

Introduction

In Episode 399 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf sits down with Ryan Duey, a multifaceted individual whose journey spans military service, jet piloting, mountain climbing, fitness training, gym ownership, and entrepreneurial endeavors. Ryan shares his insights on confronting discomfort, building resilience, and the profound impact of cold water immersion and saunas on personal and professional growth. Released on August 1, 2025, this episode delves deep into the intersections of hardship, wellness, and entrepreneurship.

Personal Stories and Resilience

Ryan begins by discussing his son's early foray into day trading, highlighting the emotional challenges and financial setbacks he faced. Despite being nine grand down, Ryan's son exhibited remarkable resilience, refusing to let losses deter his passion.

“He admitted to my wife and I that he got down somewhere between eight to nine grand, which for him, I'm surprised he wasn't in the hospital with, like, a heart attack. But he worked his way out of it.” [03:22]

This story sets the tone for the episode, emphasizing the importance of facing challenges head-on and the role of resilience in overcoming adversity.

Entrepreneurial Journey and Building Plunge

Ryan recounts his transition from managing a float tank and sauna business during the COVID-19 pandemic to co-founding Plunge, a company dedicated to making cold plunges and saunas accessible for home use. The decision was spurred by a market need and a passion for wellness.

“Within six weeks we were first paid. First page ranking on Google.” [61:08]

He explains the technical and logistical hurdles they overcame, such as sourcing reliable chillers from Active Aqua and designing aesthetically pleasing units that fit seamlessly into home environments.

The Science and Benefits of Cold Plunging and Saunas

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the physiological and psychological benefits of cold plunging and sauna use. Ryan emphasizes the importance of moderation and proper technique to maximize benefits while minimizing risks.

“We recommend people go a lot less crazy than what we've seen out in the world. Start with 55 degrees for two to three minutes.” [37:36]

Ryan critiques extreme approaches, advocating for personalized protocols that align with individual health goals. He highlights ongoing studies, including partnerships with the University of South Carolina Medical Center, investigating the effects of cold plunges on neurodegenerative diseases and overall cognitive health.

“Cold is probably the greatest onset of norepinephrine that you can put into your body.” [82:58]

Balancing Technology and Personal Well-being

Both Andy and Ryan discuss the challenges of integrating technology into daily wellness routines. They share personal experiences with wearables that track metrics like heart rate variability (HRV) and how constant data can sometimes lead to anxiety rather than improvement.

“Use the tool, don't let the tool use you.” [24:40]

They advocate for mindfulness and self-awareness, encouraging listeners to prioritize personal well-being over incessant metric tracking. Ryan shares his company's efforts to develop smart technology that complements rather than controls user experience.

Overcoming Psychological Barriers

Ryan delves into the psychological aspects of adopting cold plunges and saunas, acknowledging the mental barriers that often prevent individuals from embracing these practices. He shares anecdotes about initial discomfort and the subsequent sense of achievement and rejuvenation.

“It's like stepping into a ritual where you're doing something hard and then feeling great after. It's a transformation from feeling a certain way to feeling refreshed.” [77:19]

Future Directions and Innovations

Looking ahead, Ryan outlines Plunge's vision for expanding their product line and enhancing user experience through technology integration. They aim to create a comprehensive home wellness system that seamlessly combines cold plunges, saunas, and smart features to support long-term health and resilience.

“We want to be your one-stop shop for your home spa, your home health and wellness—all connected to one simple system.” [82:58]

Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

In closing, Ryan offers valuable advice for aspiring entrepreneurs, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, surrounding oneself with the right people, and focusing on controllable aspects of business.

“Have some self-awareness into what you want to go start. Surround yourself with people who have the skills and entrepreneurial spirit you aspire to.” [87:42]

He underscores the necessity of balancing ambition with practical action, encouraging entrepreneurs to prioritize personal growth alongside business objectives.

Notable Quotes

• “Use the tool, don't let the tool use you.” — Ryan Duey [24:40]
• “We recommend people go a lot less crazy than what we've seen out in the world. Start with 55 degrees for two to three minutes.” — Ryan Duey [37:36]
• “Have some self-awareness into what you want to go start. Surround yourself with people who have the skills and entrepreneurial spirit you aspire to.” — Ryan Duey [87:42]

Conclusion

Episode 399 of Cleared Hot provides a comprehensive exploration of resilience, wellness, and entrepreneurship through Ryan Duey's experiences and insights. Listeners are encouraged to embrace discomfort as a catalyst for growth, utilize wellness tools intelligently, and cultivate supportive networks to navigate the challenges of building a successful business. By balancing technological aids with personal mindfulness, Ryan and Andy underscore the importance of intentional living and continuous self-improvement.

Transcript

[A]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north and south west of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy.

[B]

West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[A]

Oh, wait a minute. Give it to me. I mean, it cleared. Hot coffee. Clear.

[B]

Not. I had a buddy who said at one time he had four continuous miles of lights in storage, but was making six figures a year because people would rent the lights. So storage unit the rest of the year, put them up, take them down, and he'd have them on this package of just this repeating package every year.

[A]

Like recurring rev.

[B]

Yeah. Which is amazing. Also, four miles of string lights. This sounds like a nightmare because I can handle four feet and it still loses a light bulb. So it doesn't work. Today's episode is brought to you by AG1. How much time do you have in your life? I believe we all have the same 24 hours, regardless of a couple weird social media influencers saying that they can create three days out of one. But that's a different story and a different topic. The point is this. Are you trying to do more with your time or are you trying to spend your time in a less efficient manner, doing a variety of different things, all working towards the same goal? I'm going towards the former, trying to save time. AG1, why do I take a scoop of this every day in my water? Well, one, it helps me hydrate something that I actually struggle with. I just don't get enough water. But two, it's. It helps me tackle the macro and the micro at the same time. We're talking multivitamins and minerals, pre and probiotics, green superfoods, stress adaptogens, immune support, cognitive support, all in one scoop. Could you get all those individually? Sure. Would it take you more time? I mean, probably not an incredible amount more time, but over time, adding that up, a small number multiplied by a big number is gonna end up in a lot of wasted time. It's convenient. They have travel packs. It goes with my hydration goal, my optimization goals for 20, 25 and beyond, when it comes to health and wellness, couldn't be easier. Tastes good. Comes with a convenient AG1 measure shaker. You can do both. There's milliliters on one side for psychos who use that system and ounces on the other side for those of you who are truly refined. And the next time I do an ad read for them, they're gonna have a new product. I'm not allowed to talk about it yet, but I've been testing it. It's quite good. But That'll be next time. For now, AG1 is offering new subscribers a free $76 gift. When you sign up, you're gonna get a welcome kit, a bottle of D3K, two essential vitamins, and five free travel packs in your first box so you don'. Larger container. You can take some travel packs with you on the road, so make sure to check out drinkag1.com ClearedHot to get that offer. That is drinkag1.com Clearedhot to continue your year on a healthier note. Direct link is in the show. Notes below. Back to the show. Yeah, but that's my son. And then he's like, day trading every morning. He will set his. He's in there. He's got special computer glasses that I don't think do anything. He's got his headset for white noise, and he's just studying and he has all this stuff. It's an emotional roller coaster.

[A]

Yeah. So that. How does he. Has he gotten bit yet? Yeah, by the market.

[B]

He didn't tell us he was nine grand down at one point. Which for. Did he tell you that yet?

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah, he left that out of his story. They play chess together. Apparently they're doing stock competition.

[A]

You get your inside info from him? No, I haven't gotten anything from him. I'm all. It's all my own.

[B]

I wouldn't call it inside info. I'd call it info. But he was down. Let me tell you. He. He's a penny pincher. So he admitted to my wife and I that he got down somewhere between eight to nine grand, which for him, I'm surprised he wasn't in the hospital with, like, a heart attack. But he worked his way out of it. And then. So I guess he. If he realized it, he would have gotten bit, but he never realized the losses and just worked his way out of it. I do worry, though, because we have conversations about how he's. He understands the market and he gets real upset when it doesn't respond that people are not being rational. So, I mean, I laugh at all this. I don't have a clue what he's up to. But he's gonna be okay. Yeah, he's one of those kids. He's gonna be just fine.

[A]

DNA right there.

[B]

He'll end up changing the world. The biggest thing I know, he's gonna be okay. When he knocks on the doors and he gets told no, he's like, oh, okay. Do you know any neighbors that might want their windows done? Doesn't care. Just a no to him. Is this Just an avenue to a yes down the road. Doesn't care.

[A]

That would be the. We were talking about that actually last night at dinner and it was. If I was like an 18 to 20 year old, I'd say the number one job is like go do some door to door sales. Like go get told 99 out of 100 times. Totally get used to that rejection and.

[B]

Confront people face to not confront them, but engage them face to face. Knock on their door in their domain where you're not comfortable and make eye contact and give them your best pitch in the moment. Because it's going to get better. Every no you get is like the marble. Right. They're just chiseling away before at this point now he targets particular neighborhoods and he'll just go for an afternoon and come back with thousands of dollars in business.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

And tell me that he's grinding. He'll do a two hour job in the morning. Dad, I'm grinding. I'm just like, I'm gonna kill you. You're not. You're doing great. Let's see.

[A]

Hanging him the lights himself or does he now have a team that's out?

[B]

Oh, no, he can't. His profit margin would go down. He's not. He's not down for that. He tried to legitimately. Michael worked with him. What was the first offer he pitched you? 15%.

[A]

No, I don't know if that ever. Well, that didn't ever came to fruition, but it was ridiculously low. I was like, no, I'm not doing that.

[B]

And just so you know, it was way lower than that before I talked to him. He was basically going to just try to pitch. How about a 95? 5 split? He will keep 95 and the other guy can keep 5.

[A]

That if he sells it or puts him up.

[B]

He didn't care.

[A]

Go do something. I take 95.

[B]

Yeah. Like Tyler, uh, you might have a hard time finding employees. Like, why don't you give them 40? How about this? Let him create an affiliate because he goes to school in Bozeman. You start one there, Michael runs one up here. Take less of a scrape, but then in the aggregate it's going to be more. No, he doesn't want any of that. He's. He's a margin man.

[A]

Yeah, he'll learn. You got. If you want scale, he's going to have to give up a little.

[B]

Well, you would know. How the hell did you end up building a business?

[A]

Well, this one was out of. Kind of out of a Covid scenario. We were so. Yeah, so we had. Before plunge. We had. I had a brick and mortar like health and wellness business. We had float tanks. Or we still have it. Float tanks. Saunas.

[B]

How'd you get into that? And this is in Sacramento.

[A]

Yeah. That. We have two locations in that region now. I got into float tanks. I mean if you want to go way back. I. I was in a pretty serious accident about 13 years ago. Motorbike accident. Thailand. Head on collision. Pretty catastrophic injury. But also just big moment. My life obviously big you know road to recovery. In the hospital out there about three weeks. Came back. Shifted a lot of some things I want to go after in life. Well one of those was like I got it started getting a float tank and I started floating. I was like this was back in. Yeah. 2012, 2013. So this is pretty fringe still.

[B]

Do you remember how you heard about them? Because I have. I'm not going to say I have a lot of experience and flow tanks. But for whatever reason they caught my attention years ago as well. And I was in Vancouver of all places. Canada. And they had a facility there. And I went a couple times.

[A]

They're the brothers that started it up there. What's the name of that place? Yeah.

[B]

I almost think it's called float. I don't know that we're talking years in the rear view. It's interesting. The first hour. The very first time you go. That's tough.

[A]

It's. It's like it's such a mind trip for like. Because your brain wants to connect to some.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

External. Like we always have some. Obviously when the sun's in the sky or these subconscious things that are happening. And you get in there in your first time. I mean like. Like you know, it's like five minutes in. You're like have I been in here for three hours?

[B]

You got the wax earplugs jammed in there.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

You're like where does the water begin? Where does it end on my body? Am I relaxed? Is somebody else in here with me? Who's talking to me?

[A]

100 and then it's like. And then it's like they forgot about me. Like that process happens. Like I'm not gonna be able. Am I gonna get out of here?

[B]

I was gonna say did you consider it all whether or not you remembered how to get out?

[A]

100 that where I was going at that time was a place in San Francisco and it was like a basement facility and they had the old Samadhi tanks. I don't know if you remember those little hatches that you crawl in. They're not like. I mean they're true coffin styles. It's like Glenn and Lee Perry, this infamous couple, created these like 40 years ago with what's the original, you know, float tank guy, John Lilly. So they built these things and these were kind of the. The tanks of the industry for 40, 50 years. A hat you crawl in, you have maybe this high above you and you're kind of in there and it's just like a full. But they had like you walk into a room like this almost down in a basement and there was like four tanks. It felt like like a vampire layer was like, there's your pot and go get in. And I thought it was the coolest shit in the world. I was like kind of at this place of. I thought this was like, who is doing this?

[B]

Not many people.

[A]

Not many people. But I was blown away. Which shot like kind of shocked me was I'm in there, I'm thinking I'm going to see the crazy hippie, this, you know, the whatever psychonaut. And it was like a lawyer. It was a like very normal people were just coming in to do it. And I was like, wow, maybe this isn't like as wild as I thought this was. And so I started floating and changed. Had a huge impact on my life. And fast forward few years later I was like, I want to start my own. And brought it opened one in Sacramento.

[B]

What trajectory were you on before that accident? What did you think your life was going to look like? You know, it was like born and raised in Cali.

[A]

Born and raised in California. I went and moved into Europe for a few years. Came back, got involved. I was super into soccer and so I was worked in Major League Soccer. Worked for the San Jose Earthquakes. Really fun time. I was loved working for the organization. It was fun. I was good at it. And it was.

[B]

Sacramento has an MLS team.

[A]

It was. I was in the Bay Area, so I moved to the Bay Area.

[B]

Is that profitable at all in the U.S. soccer?

[A]

Yeah, it's so the, the fish. It's. The franchises are probably growing in value faster than any league right now. It's there. Some franchises are profitable now. I'd say about half the league is profitable. When I was there, most league wasn't. But now their expansion fees are crossing 500 million.

[B]

Is it growing in popularity in the US attendance wise?

[A]

All metrics are looking really good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and they're. Soccer in the US is unique because like we're so used to having the best league in the world. Like we have the best you know, basketball league, we have the best. You know, baseball, we have the best. Hockey, we have the best. You know, obviously football is not really international sport, but these, these things are, we're used to having the best.

[B]

It is dope that we play the World Series and invite nobody else.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. World Series for. Yeah, you got maybe two countries, Canada.

[B]

And the U.S. yeah, we're missing a few.

[A]

100.

[B]

I asked because I'm recently seeing, and this is because the women's NBA All Star game just came and they were wearing T shirts that say pay us what you owe us. I believe paraphrasing slightly what it said. And I get it, they're talking about the salary difference between the WNBA and the NBA. And man, it's a fascinating conversation because a lot of people, yes, there is a huge difference, but a lot of people don't realize the WNBA has operated at a loss since it existed. It is basically propped up by the NBA. And yeah, they need to get people to start paying attention and actually want to go spend their money. Because some people did the math breakdown and it's like you actually owe money, not the other way.

[A]

I mean, they've been subsidized by the NBA.

[B]

It is 100 subsidized by the NBA.

[A]

So there's so many years. I, I, I have a bit of a opposite. I, I think there's, for clarity, I.

[B]

Want them, I want it to be successful. I'm, I'm really glad that that league exists. The question for me that I think is more important because people like we need to get incentives to get people into the seats and this, that or the other. My question is, why do you need incentives? Like, let's look at the reason maybe why people aren't as attracted to this and maybe fix that issue if it's possible. Yes, there's a pay gap, but there's also an income gap as well.

[A]

There's a, I mean, there's a lot, I mean there's companies and sports teams operated a loss for a while. So that's like, that's kind of a, I don't think it's the end story. I do think it's the first time in the history of the league that the players have some leverage. Yeah.

[B]

And they just signed a massive TV deal.

[A]

They signed the massive TV deal. They're about to come out of their collective bargaining agreement there. They haven't resigned it. So to me it's like, of course this is how it goes. Do they deserve half, half million dollar salaries? I mean, they're Caitlin Clark's making 75,000 on a rookie contract. Like, obviously, Caitlin has so many other deals that she gets.

[B]

Yeah, she's doing all right on the sponsorship side.

[A]

She's been incre.

[B]

Good for her.

[A]

But she, like, I would argue like 75K, like, is like, that's ridiculous. There should be some scale of what.

[B]

Do you base it on though, you.

[A]

Know, and that's, that's a tough one. Into like what the league, like, for example, I'll take the mls. MLS has a very unique salary cap structure. They have a salary cap, but then they have all these mechanisms where you can pay over the salary cap and you can have. They have the designated player rule. So you can bring in three guys. That's why David Beckham came. And you can pay them. Leon Messi is here. You can pay them extraordinate amount of money that go over the cap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's an owner's discretion. The owner gets to say, I am making this investment and I'm going to pay Messi 20 million a year. Even though our caps 10 million a year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where the WNBA could make an argument that that's a place that they want to go and that's an owner discretion because now they're paying out of pocket.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

That's like one step. And I think there's some creativity they could do. I think the players, I have a ton of opinions, I think, on the WNBA and what they're doing wrong. Some things they're doing right. I do think this is their moment of leverage where they go, any new contract, it's like you're going to fight for every penny you can get. How you message it. Sometimes I think this is the wrong message, but I think it's their moment to try and get a few more dollars in the values of the franchises. Where I think their argument is, is the values of the franchises have gone up so significantly. So from an owner's perspective, they're operating from a loss, but the value creation that's been made is their argument. So I. There's some middle ground. I do think they'll get some level of an increase, but it'll be interesting to see where they go.

[B]

I hijacked you. So you were in ML, Major League Soccer. Where were you born originally?

[A]

I was born in Sacramento. So yeah. Grew up right there in suburbs of Sacramento.

[B]

Say, very comfortable in the summertime, dude.

[A]

100, 100 and 108 and you know, good. But, you know, that's when you got.

[B]

To go up the Foothills up to Tahoe.

[A]

It's a dry. It's a dry heat. You know, there's. That's the.

[B]

My experience. It's just heat.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, grew up there. Pretty straightforward, simple life. Same home, stable household, parents, same job. You know, did that. Then I went to college down south. Anyway, college for. Went to college. I ended up graduating in agribusiness management. I went to college. I went to college because I think it was the classic, like had the opportunity to. Didn't quite know what I wanted to do. There wasn't a real structure and class detail. Yeah. Like, where. What I was gonna do. I was good at school and it was. It was a structure for me to go. I got into Cal Poly's really good school. I was like, that's where I'm gonna go. Kind of went sight unseen. Never visited it. Just showed up there and had a really good experience, you know, studied abroad while I was there, which had a big impact on me. And then I moved back to Spain after college and that was like a pretty transformative time for me to learn the language, get outside of my, you know, I was on a track. I was on a very. Grew up in the same town. Like, I was on this kind of subconscious track that I didn't realize I was on. Kind of got.

[B]

A lot of people are on that track.

[A]

I think we all are to some. I'm on it right now to some degree. And like. And that was a big one to get off and be like, what do I like to do? And that's when soccer, like, totally took over my life and I fell in love with the sport out there. I was living there during Barcelona's heyday with Xavi and Iniesta and Ronaldo was playing Messi. So anyways, I was. I was super into that. Moved back to the States, got into MLS and to the original question of like, the float tanks I got. Life was good. I was living in the Bay Area, working for pro sports team. Had some like, opportunities in front of me, and then I get in this, like, accident and it was like, like everything accelerated. Where it was like, dude, what the fuck do you want to do? Like, these things that I think lived in my head of the future of what I wanted to go do. Like, totally came laying in that hospital bed and it was just like, it happened quick. It was like, what do you. Like, what are you putting off? Like, you have just the. What are you going to do? So I came at left, that hospital, got into a float tank, changed my life. Went down to the Amazon, started working with ayahuasca and that was like. It was all happened within a year.

[B]

You're not a shaman, are you?

[A]

I'm not a shaman. I not play a shaman. I will never.

[B]

What's your ayahuasca name?

[A]

Ryan.

[B]

No, you know, it's just like Ryan, father of the forest beans or some shit like that.

[A]

Got a lot of opinions on that crew too.

[B]

I have had so many of my previous colleagues go down there and it has had such tremendous impact. But I've also watched people get lost in the process 100%. And they go there and I'll be honest, they come back so enlightened that they're insufferable.

[A]

Oh, it's the. The ego trap that comes with that of.

[B]

Isn't it supposed to be ego destroying?

[A]

Well, it is and it is. It's like the ego does. I think in the experience itself it does happen. Like you will go through to the brink and everyone's different. It's very unexplainable. You probably.

[B]

I have zero experience. Mostly because it terrifies me.

[A]

There's no real language for what's going on in the. In that space from my experience. But you come back and the ego as a human, that's just what we have. We have an ego. It's important to do things and it comes back stronger. And you know, if you. I've. My take is sometimes those experience get taken too literally. Like you go in and you do get this quote unquote God state or I am like an incredible being and like. Which is awesome to feel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like there's a lot. There's 8 billion other people and you're just a human and you don't mean shit. And there's like a lot. There's a paradox to the whole process.

[B]

From what I've heard people describe it as. It's a very existential, out of body experience. I've never heard somebody describe it like you just did, where you. The dangers and taking that experience, which is anything but literal. Literally. Yeah. That's not necessarily the best recipe coming home from that.

[A]

It's. It's like taking your dreams and saying they're real and it's an ex. Like they're. That's the closest I can come to it sometimes. They're so bizarre. They're so. And you know, and there's so much I've like real applicable growth that I've had from it of my parents and I's relationship, just my. My like love of myself and My acceptance of child. All these things that are just important for, like, I think, a human evolution. And then there's moments where I'm like, okay, that that just happened. And I can, like, I can make the aliens mean the biggest. Like you have an alien experience. And I'm like, I don't know if that's real. I don't know. Like, to make that a literal statement, I think. I don't think brings much value to me. So I've had. That's where I kind of separate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, what is the growth that I'm getting from this? And leave. Leave the. You know, some of the experiences that I can't quite explain. They're not there to say they're not real either. Like, I'm just kind of like, that's not my. As a human. I'm not here to. I don't really understand that.

[B]

The wildest is when people go to those dreamlike experiences, take them literally, and then feel qualified to describe to other people what their experiences should mean to them.

[A]

That's a really slippery slope to me.

[B]

I sit back and I look at this and again, zero experience whatsoever. I heard a lot of people talk about it like, that's again, slippery slope. Walking on a razor blade. And also, what level of hubris do you have to have to think that you are the anointed one to be able to tell people what was going on in their mind, which you weren't able to see and experience for yourself what it should mean to them? Like, you're at a 10, sir, I need you to four. You know, let's take a wrap off 100.

[A]

I mean, it's where I've gotten. I just obviously said I worked with Iowa. It's like I've. I utilize psychedelics. I've been pretty hesitant as of. More as they've gotten mainstream because there's been these different avenues of people that have used them in a way. So I'm a little hesitant sometimes to say I use them because they're great tools in my life, but they're. They're equally. You know, they're tools. Like, not everyone uses the same tools. There's different. There's different avenues to go for. Different growth mechanisms and different.

[B]

We'll talk about what you do now. The sauna cold plunging thing. Right. Completely different. Even though I guess you could probably have a psychedelic experience in either of those if you stayed in either too long. I watch people get lost in that process too. Like, I definitely want to talk about what you're building now and where you're going. But I literally will watch people with morning routines that are ungodly, they're hours long and they have become lost in their routine instead of making their routine work for them. It's any tool can be it's in the hand of the person wielding it.

[A]

I mean that it's like at the core I think we're building these routines to make us more resilient, to make us more, you know, effective in our life. And then when the routine, we become.

[B]

Victim to the routine or defined by the routine.

[A]

Totally. And that's like we see totally. And I see it a lot obviously colpon gene and saunas and what we do are like ritual tools. Like that's what. They're products that create ritual and we love that. And there's this world of like if I don't get my perfect sleep, if I don't wake up at this time and get my 30 minutes of breath, work with my cold, plunge with life can't go on. Yeah, exactly. Like you're. Then you're wrecked. And now my, my wearables telling me I get the feedback that my HRV is down. And then you're in a self fulfilling loop of.

[B]

Do you know how you fix that one? You take that off.

[A]

You take that off.

[B]

I actually have. I used to wear an apple watch and I did. Michael and I both do jiu jitsu and I wore a whoop for a. And it was the same thing I was targeting. I wanted to have a better mathematical understanding of my metrics. But I caught myself on days where it's like, hey, you should take it easy, your numbers aren't great. You can talk yourself into that. And oftentimes I didn't feel like the number that I was looking at. And I, in my mind I was having this argument of like, well, I should probably listen to the science. And it became too much. And also after it probably depends on the person and how deep you go. But after three to six months I could guess to a very high level of accuracy of what it was going to say. And then I just didn't want it on me all the time. I actually would prefer to go back to analog. I know when I slept well, I know when I ate like shit because I was the one stuffing it in my face. Like last night we went to the movies, I ate several pounds worth of salt in popcorn because that's what you do in the movies. And you wake up and you're like my fingers don't work, huh? I don't need a watch to tell me that.

[A]

Totally. I like to wear it once a month. Yeah. A year. And like, kind of get a baseline of like where I guess my HRV is kind of what the zone is right now. But yeah, it's definitely first thing in the morning. I wake up. Did I sleep good? I don't know, dude, check on yourself.

[B]

I was just going to say check in with yourself. And honestly, I know you can turn off all the alerts on the watches and stuff like that, but that also defeats a little bit of the purpose. And I didn't like the fact I was constantly getting alerts on my wrist, so I just, I switched back to just a straight analog watch. And honestly, it's a way better experience for me.

[A]

So you were getting the text messages, the whole thing.

[B]

I would throttle some, you know, but like, oh, just give me my summary. Right. You'll, you'll lie to yourself. Don't give me texts right away. Unless it's these 57 people that are in your contacts. Give me a summary every four hours and you're sitting here like scrolling on a watch, a one inch screen, trying to. What are we doing?

[A]

Totally, I, I, yeah, totally. I, I have not gone the. Even though we are like building at plunge, we are actually building this specific feature right now.

[B]

But here's the thing. Use the tool, don't let the tool use you. And one of the big things that got me to take that watch off is I'd be sitting, having a conversation, not on a podcast, but even though it would happen, dinner with my wife. And you feel your watch vibrate. The urge to disconnect from the person you're talking with just for a second is enough to completely shatter whatever it is you might be sharing or talking about or interrupting a train of thought. I didn't like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though I knew I could turn them off. But if it does, for whatever, like, you know, my kids all can call through. I have my phone silenced, but they can call through. Which I've told them, but still, they just called nine times. If I don't answer the phone, dad, where's the milk? Like, I don't know, probably the fridge. Hang up.

[A]

Like, you really abused that. Like you're in trouble.

[B]

I know. Like, if I'm not answering the phone. First off, we also share life360, you know, I'm in the studio, take a guess as to what I'm doing. But man, I hated that. And you see it I, and it's something once I recognize My distaste of how it made me feel and my willingness to distract myself from who I was sharing time with. You see it in other people because you'll see the watch light up. Most people cannot stop themselves from detaching a little bit and looking down.

[A]

Do you. How do you combat. Obviously text everywhere. You've gone analog there?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What about your phone? What mechanisms do you have to.

[B]

I leave it on silent and I check text messages. I will. I have it. So if I look at my lock screen, it'll give me just the wave tops. And if it's important or something critical, I'll get back to it. If not, I'll respond maybe two or three times a day and I just force myself to just put it down. It's impressive, it's hard, and it shouldn't be. We should not be slave to those anxiety rectangles.

[A]

Yeah, I. That is my. I run the company through there. I'm not on a laptop too much. And that's like. My justification is like, I work through the phone and then it's like. And also there's a lot of bullshit that I'm rationalizing that I'm spending time on there that has nothing to do with the company or a lot of being productive or effective.

[B]

So the number of times I've told myself I'm gonna work on a device and the next thing you know, you're looking at Instagram reels and you can't actually even remember how you went from the productive platform to the. The BS rabbit hole you slid down. It just. Your mind is just so. Yeah, I do my best.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Chunking it into those times helps me. And I have everything turned off except for text messages and phone calls. And I get like the four hour alerts. And also, I mean, some days I'm just super busy and I'll try to remind myself on days, like, where I can't even check my phone until the end of the day, before I do, I'll actively sit there and be like, okay. I often tell myself I have to be 100 accessible all the time. I just wasn't for a day. Let's see what I missed. You know what the answer is? Almost always nothing. Nothing critical whatsoever. And it helps.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's the. I'm about to be a father in like three months.

[B]

First time.

[A]

First time.

[B]

Strap in.

[A]

Strap. Yeah. Getting ready. It's. But at the point of. I wouldn't say contention, but it's like, you know, Raya, my partner, she's like, the phone's like the fit, like, okay. And it's all these things that at least for me what's coming up is like as a father or new about to be. It's like these traits that I like, oh, that'll be worked out by the time I'll have a kid or something like that. It's like, no, you have more or less probably an addiction to your phone and that's you're about to like.

[B]

Is that designed to be though?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

These devices and all of the apps on them are not designed to try to help us out. They're designed to try to help them out. Our time and attention is what's being monopolized and commoditized.

[A]

Yeah. And so it's like figuring out what the. Yeah. I think the time slots, something going towards clicking there. Do not disturb 24 7. That's a double edged sword too because then I'm do not disturb and I'm like, oh, I should probably check to see if something important came up because I didn't get the notification.

[B]

I find that people will call if it's truly like the barns on fire. I mean if there was an emergency, would you text somebody or call?

[A]

Yeah, you call.

[B]

I would call. Maybe open with a text. Hey buddy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or the classic one from my kids, hey, what are you doing? Anytime I get that text, my response is what are you doing?

[A]

You never care what I'm doing. Yeah.

[B]

If my response is what are you doing? With two question marks? And then the phone rings shortly thereafter. But it's people will call. What's so for your business, what would be like, what would be a house on fire scenario that you would need to know about immediately? Software issue, product issue. What do you think it would be?

[A]

Yeah, I mean there's always those issues going on. Like there's some level of, you know, I think I the one that as I really think, like what is imperative in the moment, it would be someone on my executive team that's in their code red moment like that they need some support. So that could be a variety of things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Obviously some major PR dynamic like trying to understand like okay, we have to come do some decision pretty quick here of what we want to do. Thankfully that's never really happened.

[B]

Like somebody's bobbing for apples in a cold plunge and they die.

[A]

As a hypothetical someone, you know, God forbid, drowns in the plunge for some reason or like that's going to happen at some time. Totally.

[B]

You know what's going to happen though? Heart attack, first Then drown.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I mean, we haven't. We haven't had it. We're very.

[B]

Well, they're not going to call customer support because they're dead.

[A]

No. It'll be interesting how that one comes out, but. Yeah. What is the true.

[B]

Well, you have an executive team, right?

[A]

We do have a great executive team.

[B]

Did you take your time in hiring them?

[A]

We did. We built it. I mean, we started. It was Mike and I in a garage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we built these things. You know, the company scaled rapidly.

[B]

What kind of architecture do you have with your leadership team? Do they know the boundaries that they can work inside of and when they need to go up to a higher level of authority?

[A]

I think so. And it's, you know, varying to each. Each person's different. Yeah, each. We operate under a structure. It's called eos.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Entrepreneurial Operating System. So it's a really clear framework of how we meet, how we, you know, elevate issues, bring forth issues, come to solutions.

[B]

So those are all good. And the reason I was asking about, you know, the boundaries is that it's really empowering to anybody, employees and leadership staff, if they know inside of these matrix I can make decisions I need to as long as they are aligned with our strategic goal. That was one of the things I appreciate about the military. Like, I knew exactly the decisions I was authorized to make and where I needed to go one level up. And that'll take a lot of bandwidth off of you because sometimes, guess what, the executives need to figure it out on their own.

[A]

And we, Mike, my co founder and I, that's. I think a lot of things we need to improve, but that's an area that we do pretty well. We give them a lot of space and we treat whatever their domain is, we have them treat it like their own operation, you know, and they are ultimately accountable for it. They are responsible for it. They have, you know, they know where we're going. Good. Ideally, if they don't, we're discussing it and they can make decisions within it. So that's been effective. We move, you know, we're five years coming up on this business. Move really, really fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think where we're trying to go is actually kind of. I don't want to say slow down, but like, really last year has been this, like, infrastructure build, which is sometimes you got to be a little slower, a little more methodical, a little more intentional. And so that's where we've been in this last year. And so the team, you know, we brought in it's an interesting one because we've operated as kind of a startup. Now, coming out of our startup phase, we've brought in a lot of talent from, you know, bigger, bigger companies like Amazon, Chevron, Northrop Grumman, like, you know, established cultures that are very different than what plunges as this, you know, upstart health and wellness brand.

[B]

Do you make them get in the plunge?

[A]

We do. We do all our final interviews in sauna plunge. So they show, they come, we plunge, we get in the sauna. Which is always more vulnerability, more transparency.

[B]

In the sauna.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

You're joking.

[B]

The cold plunge is way worse.

[A]

Well, the cold's like, you go in and you're pretty. You kind of focus. It's a two, you know, it's a two to five minute experience on your own in the cold, where the sauna you get.

[B]

I know. You should interview people. And it's like, whoever gets out first doesn't get the job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what I think in my mind.

[A]

So we're. That's like, that's like the exact opposite where we're trying to go with the, with the company.

[B]

Not all ideas are going to stick. I'm just saying I'll throw some stuff out there, take what you want.

[A]

Our goal is like. Because we have some people that like, it's like just. Are you willing? I think it's. Are you willing to show up to a job interview and get in a cold plunge? You get in a bathing suit, get in a sauna. Like, that's not typical in major, major corporate.

[B]

Very Andy Elliott. Take your shirt off.

[A]

Yeah, take your shirt off. Give us a flex.

[B]

Short shorts only.

[A]

And you get in. And that's like the passing. Will you get in? Can you. Are you willing to do this? You don't have to be great. You don't. Are you willing to get uncomfortable and have that experience because you know, they're on our turf.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, when that point you're, you're kind of. It's Mike and I co founders together. You're kind of like, shit, am I going to get this job? These guys are making me do a cold plunge with them, you know, and our. Everyone on the executive team has done it and it's been, you know, and we've had a ton of people we've hired. Like, we didn't hire. That did it. Did it. Well, but it is a good barometer of, you know, who's willing to do it and who says yes.

[B]

Do you get in the pledge tub with them?

[A]

We have not done a face to face eye gaze plunge yet again.

[B]

I'll just throw stuff out there. Take whatever works.

[A]

That's. Do you have experience with.

[B]

I have a lot of experience in cold water, which is why I would rather have. Are you familiar with the Irish dance? The river dance?

[A]

I know of it, yeah.

[B]

So I would rather have a 300 pound Samoan woman in 9 inch stiletto heels doing that on my ball sack than cold plunge.

[A]

So you hate cold water?

[B]

I don't hate it.

[A]

Well, I don't know what, what is stilettos on your balls is pretty like.

[B]

It'S pretty good in comparison to a cold plunge. I was forced to participate in a lot of cold water BS earlier in my life.

[A]

With the seal. Yes.

[B]

We were in the water. It's funny, in the training environment in pre 9 11, we were always in the water. And what I tell people is if you worked at Basket Robbins, you probably wouldn't want to go get ice cream on the weekends. I, I have done my fair share of cold plunging. I just really dislike it. That's why the sauna. I'm like, let's go. Like I party in the sauna all day long. I was shocked that the sauna is harder for people.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It.

[B]

I mean first off, what are you cranking this thing up to?

[A]

Sauna.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're usually around 200.

[B]

Okay. That's not like, that's not insane.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's fine to get in. It's when you're at that 20 minute mark, you know, and you're kind of. The world's starting to close in a little on you and you're. Someone's talking, you're like, I can't pay attention to what you're saying and dude, I need to get out. You know, that's that like. Okay, let's go 30 seconds more. Let's go 60 seconds more and try and push people there. But I mean cold's like sucks when you get in, but I think it gets a little easier as you're in it.

[B]

Oh no, no, it sucks when you get in. Actually the thought of it sucks before you get in, then it sucks when you get in, then it sucks while you're in and then you have to rewarm. So it sucks when you're out.

[A]

Hard. Disagree. So when you get out, there is no better feeling than when you come out of the cold and you're in some like that's a drug.

[B]

So I want you to go do we're gonna do a trip. We're gonna go up to one of my first cold plunges, which was when they gave us our dry suit Appreciation evolution in Kodiak, Alaska. And we're up there for cold weather training. And the gear list on the board literally said shorts and running shoes. And I'm looking at this and now there was no life jacket. And we all got into a van and drove to the beach in Kodiak. The beach snow covered, by the way snow and ice covered. Everybody had to go get out, completely dunk into the neck and water. And then hands. Was it hands? No, hands was for the tread. You had to go completely underwater and then beat your neck for five minutes and there was like ice and stuff floating around. It probably wasn't insane, but the rewarming from that was the worst. Yeah, pins and needles, because you were almost instantly numb. Getting into the water was not joyous. Oh, and by the way, the clock didn't start until the last person had dunked their head. And we had some people who were lollygagging.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Taking their time, tying their shoes.

[A]

And it doesn't start till everyone.

[B]

Not until the last person gets their head underwater. So there was some.

[A]

It's not a good teammate.

[B]

Enthusiastic coaching for those who were taking their time. It sucked.

[A]

I mean, that to me, there's like degrees of cold, no pun intended, of like cold water immersion. Sure. Like, that is. You are strictly doing that for resilience building. Like.

[B]

No, they were doing that because it was done to the instructors. And so then in the military, you pass generational trauma down 100.

[A]

Exactly. You're doing, like, I'm saying, like. Like, we focus as plunge. We like doing the hard thing. That's great. But we're 2 to 3 minutes, 45 to 50 degrees. Learn to regulate your breath. Like, it's a very different experience than some of these, like, extreme. And yeah, you could get our plunges and do a 10 minute at 37 degrees and sit in there.

[B]

Do you have a 94 degree cold plunge?

[A]

We do have a cold plunge that goes to 94.

[B]

Yes. I'm talking about.

[A]

Then you can. You can do the.

[B]

Read a book.

[A]

Hot. Hot tub by night, cold plunge by the morning. But I think there's like, you know, cold water. There's. There's nuance that we're discovering to how to go about it and the benefits that you're like, I would put that into. I don't know what the, like, physical benefit is.

[B]

There wasn't any. It Was legitimately they called it dry suit appreciation. Because if you were to immerse yourself in that water up there, it was to show you how much usable time you have before you're just done. And the answer for most people is between five to 10 minutes and you're gonna die.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

That's literally what it was.

[A]

And I think that. So that was that purpose where most are buying our product not to have a dry suit appreciation.

[B]

It's missed opportunity.

[A]

Missed. Maybe. Maybe the marketing should change there. Ours is much more into like, it's actually. We're trying, like, we're looking at features to roll out right now of how to coach people. We get a lot of people that buy our product and they think it's 37 degrees for 10 minutes. And we're like. They get the product and they haven't really done it before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they like, I jump in, I do 10. We're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[B]

Yeah, you might actually do some tissue damage there. You want to.

[A]

You're good. Totally. This is a net negative right now. This is not the benefit that what you think this is for. And you're not proving anything to anyone. It's to me. It'd be like taking someone that maybe hadn't been working out and going to do a CrossFit workout with rich Froning.

[B]

I was literally just thinking of the exact same analogy of somebody who is sedentary and says, today's my day to go train with the world champ. You wouldn't do that with anything, even a diet. How do people most changes in eating routine, they start off incrementally and it's an exposure based. Yeah, the bolus approach. Giddy up. I mean, I respect it to a.

[A]

Degree, but yeah, look, I'm all for the one off. I love doing the random hard thing. But most are never even going to be Rich Froning. Like, so it's again, finding your space of. Okay, what is your. Are you doing this for mood elevation? Are you doing this for some nervous system regulation? Like there are different things you can do it. And it's. It's like. So we always recommend 55 degrees. Two to three minutes. I don't care if you're a man or a woman. I don't care your age. Start there. Some people, you actually need to raise the temp up a little. You need to. Okay, cool. You're actually in a spot. Let's. Let's lower it 2 degrees and kind of figure out your spot. And we see it most with men that you know Men get in and they just want to fight through it. I'm going to. I'm going to tough through this thing. Like I'm gonna get in and I'm not gonna. Oh, five minutes easy. And they just like get out. And they never really relaxed into the experience where the whole. And I would argue at that point, cool, you did a hard thing. That's great. But the benefit you are looking for or why you want to consistently do this, you're actually hurting yourself. So, you know, we're trying to educate and coach into, okay, how do you get your heart rate down? How do you start to calm down in this chaos? And. But you got to find the right temp for that. You cannot. Some is just too intense and you're not going to be able to regulate yourself. So I think there's a, you know, dry suit initiation. Maybe we'll do that once a year on a marketing campaign.

[B]

But could be a bespoke retreat.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I mean Wim's doing shit like that and some of his.

[B]

Yeah. But we also share the earth with crazy people.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Who cares?

[A]

Totally. So do you get in a cold plunge? You're like, you're done.

[B]

I am not against it. It's. For me, it's psychological. I just dislike it. The sauna we had, I got one of those sweat tents last winter and set it up in the backyard. That to me is awesome. Especially it's like a wood fire one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Post jiu jitsu, like just sweating it out at the end of the. Of the end of the day like that. That one was a really good one for me.

[A]

Yeah. I think the sauna, having that is like a ritual at the end of the night. It's my.

[B]

You sleep so much better.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Just like melting into your sleep pod system. Whatever you have. It's another mist. I got one of those eight sleeps.

[A]

Do you use it?

[B]

Yeah. Now I can't escape the metrics. Everywhere I look, there's metrics, metrics, metrics. Now my wife's like, hey, what's your sleep score? I'm like, mind your own business.

[A]

It's a competition every night.

[B]

She's going to win every time.

[A]

Do you. Do you like it?

[B]

I do.

[A]

I.

[B]

She, my God is like laying next to the surface of the sun and I don't like sleeping hot. So it's the split temperature. It's. She actually has mentioned she really enjoys it because she can keep it warmer and I can keep it cooler. I do sleep better with the temperature regulation. That's one thing I found.

[A]

Seriously pretty like you, like, not, like, pretty cool.

[B]

But I can't do it if I'm anywhere near hot, like warm, or I just cannot sleep. So I'd rather be on the colder side than the hot side.

[A]

Yeah, it's a slick piece of hardware.

[B]

We got the one that came with the. I mean, they had reached out one time to sponsor the podcast. I was like, oh, this might be my chance. Yeah, I paid full retail for this thing. And then, because I never followed up with them, which is probably not good business, but that's just more about me than them. So I got the one with the blanket, too. So it kind of encapsulates you in it. It's pretty sweet.

[A]

So you have on the top, top and bottom.

[B]

Yeah. And then, funny enough, we have a miniature dachshund. He sleeps dead center on the middle. He's like, half of his legs are on the hot side and his body's on the cold or vice versa.

[A]

Found his little group.

[B]

Yeah, he's completely happy with it as well.

[A]

That's great. That's great.

[B]

Because I am interested in the metrics, but I, again, I don't. I want the tool to work for me. I don't want to become beholden to this data set because the reality is it doesn't matter what the number shows you, you're still going to have to go do what you need to do in your day. And I know people, and I've caught myself in that trap before of, well, today is not going to be my day. Definitely not. If you're telling yourself that first thing in the morning.

[A]

Yeah. You're set up for that.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's a. Like, I don't think we figured out all this tech of how to integrate. There's obviously benefit for it. Then it becomes.

[B]

I don't think at some point it's going to be. The user is going to have to determine that. You can't throttle that because people want. They want it even deeper. Right. They want, you know, if you're going to give them an hourly sleep review, they're like, well, what about every 30 minutes? What about every 15? What about every 10?

[A]

What would be the metric if there was a wearable to tell you something that you would. That you would take?

[B]

Today's episode is brought to you by Stopbox. Let's talk about firearms in the terms of secure storage. If you have a firearm. Right. The last thing any responsible gun owner wants is for somebody to gain access to that firearm. That shouldn't have it. So positive control on your body is a great solution. Locked away in a safe is a great solution. But what about in between? What do you do when you travel? Now, each airline has their own rules. It could be in the original manufacturer's box. That's the firearm itself, actually, as long as it's lockable. And the ammunition as well. But those aren't really secure boxes. So what is an option that could be in between? Something maybe you could keep at an office?

[A]

Office?

[B]

A podcast studio. Well, I have a solution for you. This is the Stopbox Pro. Now, I have this open just because it's easier for me to talk about it and hold it than open it with one hand on the show. I'll close it up here and I'll talk about the convenience of it. And I also have right here a Glock 43X. I'm going to put this up and you can see you could store it this way laterally, you could do it vertically. If you did that, you might even have room for your phone as well. Anything else sensitive you might want to put in there? Passports, secure items, whatever it may be. Close this bad boy up. You can hear it lock. This is a lockable box. It's TSA approved. I'll talk about that in a second. It's mechanical. You push it in, push down, and boom, it's open. All Stopbox products are proudly made here in the USA in their own facility. So not only does this ensure the highest quality of craftsmanship of every product that they send out, it means that meaningful jobs and opportunities are here, right on our shores for American workers. Like I said, it's TSA compliant. Now, obviously, this is checked bag, not carry on. They may require you to put a TSA friendly lock on there as well. Not a big deal. Take one just to be sure. That way you won't get turned away at check in. That's an uncomfortable problem to have sometimes. And Stopbox offers a variety of other products like a vehicle safe, chamber lock and other essential gear designed to keep you prepared and protected forever. You are. No batteries, mechanical. You're never going to run out of juice on that thing. Interchangeable locking mechanism so you can set your own entry code for a limited time. Listeners are going to get a great deal. Listeners are going to get 10% off your entire order when you use the code cleared hot. And right now, Stopbox is also running a deal on their most popular bundle, the Two Pack, which saves you over 30% and comes with a free accessory and shipping that's 10% off and a big bundle discount when you use the code cleared [e-mail] that is stopboxusa.com Discover a better way to balance security and readiness with StopBox. Direct link in the show notes below. Back to the show. That's a good question. I don't know because I'm gonna ignore it anyway.

[A]

But if there was some, like, if.

[B]

You were, like, maybe if I was, like, about to have a heart attack.

[A]

Interesting. And it was.

[B]

If death was imminent, because then I would just go try to find something awesome to do.

[A]

You'D want to know.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Would you want to know if you were gonna, like, when you're going to die?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, right now. If I told you 100%, this is.

[B]

Yep. Wouldn't you. How much would it change your life? It would change everybody's life that we know because they would immediately strip away every piece of bullshit and focus only on what mattered.

[A]

Yeah, it. I think about it a lot. And I go back and forth.

[B]

Have you seen the mortality calendars where it marks the number of weeks you have remaining in the average lifespan?

[A]

I. I have.

[B]

Yeah. That goes all the way back to, like, Aristotle. It was him. Or, you know, one of those individuals. What do they call those people? The Stoics. Considering your immortality multiple times per day was actually considered a benefit to their life to remind you that you have an unknown amount of time left and.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And it's diminishing.

[A]

I think of it like, what is. What is the, like, digestible? Like, the thing that hits me the most right now is, like, how many times am I gonna see my parents, even though they live near me? Like, there's some number on a calendar. It might be a hundred, it might be less. You know what I mean? Like.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that's like, wow. Like. Or how many summers do I have left? Like, I love summer. And I'm like, maybe got 40 to 50 more summers here.

[B]

Like, if your number came back, like, hey, you have a month, Would you go rob a bank?

[A]

I wouldn't rob a bank.

[B]

Why? Missed opportunity.

[A]

I would. Look, I would want to do. I would want to put as much good out as I could. Like, that would be important to me in my kind of think about how.

[B]

Much good you could do with that.

[A]

Money in a month, man, what would I do in a month?

[B]

I guarantee you it would be different than whatever you.

[A]

But why would I fucking want that.

[B]

Money to do good things?

[A]

So, like, I now have this money, and then I just. I let my friends take the money.

[B]

Now you go have awesome experiences.

[A]

I would go just spend all my money.

[B]

Exactly. And that way you could leave some behind because you could use that cash that you got from the bank.

[A]

Okay, so you rob bank.

[B]

I'm not saying I wouldn't.

[A]

You have one month to live. What's the first thing you go do?

[B]

Stop doing any job that I have whatsoever.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

And just spend time with the people I love.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I mean, that's it right there.

[A]

It just gave like a gathering. Would you go travel with them somewhere?

[B]

Every day I would pick something that I haven't done and I would go do it for 30 days. And then the last day would be like skydiving without a parachute.

[A]

Beat this, beat the what if that was the self fulfilling like you actually.

[B]

The day before the day, the 30.

[A]

Day is like, oh, he jumped. The whole thing was a. As a joke.

[B]

Like, oh, it was just a thought exercise.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not saying, you know, I think everybody would do exactly the same thing. They'd immediately stop doing anything that wasn't rewarding and enriching to them. And they would spend time with people that they cared about, which is wild because the world we live in is almost designed to do the opposite of that. But I don't know, Michael, what would you do as a 23 year old?

[A]

25, first of all, second of all, I would try. I would have to strike a balance between going to all the places I want to go and seeing as many people as possible.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That I love.

[B]

Why are you not traveling now?

[A]

I am. I just got back from a trip.

[B]

You did a trip per year. Now you have a month left to live. You know, you'd say to yourself, damn, I wish I had traveled more.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I'm working on it right now. I'm actually considering taking my next trip this fall, by the way, so I'll get back to you on that. Japan? Yes.

[B]

You talked to Sean?

[A]

I have actually talked to Sean, yeah.

[B]

Japan's awesome.

[A]

I've heard great things.

[B]

What are you going to do there?

[A]

Not talk to women?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He goes, well, first of all, I would not be able to understand what they're saying.

[B]

Okay, you understand that people in Japan also speak English, right?

[A]

Not as widespread as.

[B]

Okay, you could you could. I. I have my pulse on the dating scene by talking with him. And let me just tell you, it apparently is more of a landfill than Afghanistan. Landmines just out there. Just horrible.

[A]

What are the landmines?

[B]

Oh, just the ability. Talking about the digital aspect of it. Hard to connect with people, what people are looking for. It just, it seems rough.

[A]

It's a lot more nuanced nowadays.

[B]

Stay in it with, with your girl and the kid. Yeah, but if you had 30 days, you're telling me you wouldn't think to yourself or one of the first thoughts wouldn't be, I wish I had.

[A]

No, I, no, I'm sure it would. That's why I would be like, I want to go to all the places I, yeah. Want to go.

[B]

So what stops us from doing that now?

[A]

But I think it's, it's also negligent to not somewhat plan for the future. But people like, if I only live for today.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not saying only live for.

[A]

Today or live for 30 days. Like you see a lot of people that make short term decisions that don't set themselves up, don't do the hard thing or go through a hard season doing stuff I don't want to do to get to a place I want to do. I get it.

[B]

But you also see a lot of people who can think so far out and I'm going to have to plan to set up my future self and their future self doesn't make it or they get to that point. My dad right now, love him to death, has more money than he's ever had in his life from the sale of a home in Santa Cruz. I wonder though, how much opportunity will he have to enjoy it? My theory with him, and I tell him this all the time, I was like, dude, bounce the last check. I don't want a dime of your money. Go to town. A lot of the things that he thought he was going to do in his retirement that he now can do economically, he can't do physically. So it's that balance. And I've seen that happen over and over again. Planning for retirement, planning for retirement, planning for retirement. And then something happens. You get a divorce, your spouse passes, you don't want to do those things anymore. You don't even make it. Health issue. There's got, there's a balance somewhere.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

I'm not saying be irresponsible. I think a lot of us, the standard is we plan so far out that you lose kind of what's right in front of you. And I think that finding that balance, to me, like, I don't understand money at all. I've made some stupid decisions with money. I'm not rich by any stretch, but to me wealth is the ability to do what you want to with your time. That's it, it's not a thing.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

If I want to travel the world and do jiu jitsu with my wife, if I can do that, I'm as wealthy as I want to be, that's it.

[A]

Yeah. And I think, I totally agree. I mean that is the ultimate wealth. Like money is, money's not for the dollar in the time coupons. It's a freedom purchase that you have. I do. I mean I look at, I think there is a big shift. I think like you have like the baby boomer generation, they live for retirement. That was what they bought in. Like that, that was what they believed in general, generality retirement. I work, I'm going to have that time off. And then it was a shift almost to maybe our generation, maybe even younger, where it was like the other end. Like I live for experience and I'm, you know, some of these other longer term horizon things are put off and they're almost demonized. I think they're somewhere in the middle. Yeah, I think there's. And it's, again, there's no perfect answer to it.

[B]

But you know what's interesting, I've talked with my dad about this. I've had him on the show a few times. So his parents, generation, I tell you what, man, they didn't really think about longevity, health, maintaining their movement as they got older. My dad, I remember him working out. But I tell you what, around the time of my generation and my peers, and I'm sure you guys are seeing this with what you do, people are now trying to find ways to maximize whatever time they have left, whether it's from cold plunge, sauna, and they are taking that deeper into life and deeper into their planning. So I think they're going to buy more tail end functionality. I can't imagine anything worse. What a horrible prison. To economically be able to do whatever you want, but physically not being able.

[A]

To do anything scares the shit out of me.

[B]

That would be the worst.

[A]

Like, I, I sense it like even now, you know, I'm coming up, I'm 39. Like there is a difference of obviously what I felt when I was 25.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And I sense it. And then it's, it's like, man, it's only going to get harder. Like, don't give up. Like, I don't. I used to play a bunch of basketball. I don't play much anymore because of bad ankles. And I do it, but I'm like, I don't know if I'll ever really get that. Like, it's only going to get harder. The momentum just gets more and more. And so I think through of like to your point of like dude, if you don't. It's the micro actions today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That are going to be that it's cumulative. If I'm be 75, to be able to still go hiking and do the thing like that's. That's a decision made today. That is my dad. Yeah.

[B]

My dad's 78. He walks, he's got a dog. He walks every day into the gym. He's got a great routine. 78 just finished a week long fly fishing, boat trip where they're floating down the river. It kicked his nuts a little bit but he was able to do it. And I'll be honest, there's a lot of 78 year olds that would not even be able to consider that. So he is. And again I look at him, I'm like, okay, what are you doing? I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to do more than that. What do I need to change now? Three decades younger than him to make that happen? That's what I think. That's what gets me over the hurdle with stuff like sauna. Not so like not the sauna necessarily, but the cold plunge. There's also psychos up here. What do they call it Michael? The polar plunge.

[A]

Oh yeah. You go to the Flathead Lake in.

[B]

February and it's like I hope you can't find the entrance to that and go under the ice.

[A]

Tell me more. You got a little thing to work out here with the cold and then.

[B]

Doing it really short shorts. Like nobody wants to see that.

[A]

I think the thing for me that's like, you know, it's probably walking. That's like the most on a screen a lot. Like that's the thing that I'm like I am sacrificing right now. Like I'm not getting the number of steps that I would. That's just like a daily deposit. That's like how do you work out.

[B]

Outside of just movement? The walking. You mentioned CrossFit and Rich Froning. Are you connected with him at all?

[A]

Yeah, we've done some stuff with Rick.

[B]

He's so cool. I've known him for years. I used to work for CrossFit.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

Yeah, years ago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Back in like 2006 to 2014.

[A]

Okay. So you know like Jason Khalifa and.

[B]

Jason was texting me this morning talking about the origin jiu jitsu camp that he's not going to be able to be at.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So of course I lorded that over him.

[A]

Yeah, Jason's. Jason's a homie.

[B]

And I don't know if you guys make a tub large enough for him. He is like the closest thing to the Hulk.

[A]

He fits. He fits. Yeah. He's a beast. He gets bigger and bigger.

[B]

I know. I'm telling you, like, if you painted that guy green, people might think he's the hulk industry.

[A]

He's such a monster. I'm not. I'm different. I ran a marathon earlier this year, so I was doing a lot of, like, endurance training. Now more of like kettlebell workouts. Just kind of functional movement stuff. Gone through my yoga phases. I. I just. I like to switch it up. I'm not like a militant on one workout, like, my body needs.

[B]

I think that's the variety. Go on a lot of walks with your wife. That's with a stroller.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Leading up to the birth. And then it's cool, man. The kids getting exposed to, you know, three months in Sacramento. That's actually going to be beautiful because you'll be deep into the fall right now. I wouldn't recommend that because they'll fry like an egg, but yeah, and it'll help postpartum as well too. So that'd be a good chance to get your steps in.

[A]

Yep, that's the. That's the one kind of edge. Workouts are good, all that, but it's like, it's the simple stuff. Like, that's the stuff that, you know, is, I think pays even the longer, like, longer term benefit.

[B]

So you decided to do this during COVID had. You already had the thought, and then Covid happened, or this is something that you realized, like lockdown. I need to reinvent myself, figure out what to do.

[A]

Yeah, it was. I mean, for me, Covid was like super transformative time. So I like, you know, I was living in the same place I had was with Raya. My partner then had Capital floats. And that was my life. And then within three months, her and I broke up. My capital floats was shut down in California. I decided to buy an RV and move out and live in an rv. So my life, like in three months, like completely flipped upside down. You know, her and I, we ended up getting back together. All good there. Capital floats gets back open. But Mike, my co founder, who happened to own Float Tank center in the Bay Area, randomly, we became buddies kind of through that. He was the one. He's the product guy. And he was like, I think there's an opportunity here. I don't see anyone building coal Plunges and we didn't know the size of the market but it was literally a business plan of let's build 20 of these and we'll email our capital floats and reboot floats. Bond will say we'll deliver to your home. Who wants to buy one? And that was, you know, that was the business plan. And within six weeks we were first paid. First page ranking on Google. You know, big choice we made early on was you know the company's name plunge. At the time when we were launching the term cold plunge was ice bath was 10x the search on then cold plunge on the Internet.

[B]

What were people using ice baths 4 was it the same thing? I'm trying to think of when I first heard of or saw somebody kind of openly. I mean Wim Hof was kind of the. But what was it being utilized? And I mean I had some buddies who played pro ball in the NFL. They certainly were using ice a ton. But it wasn't necessarily cold plunge. I think they were doing that for kind of injury like post injury swelling stuff. What was the first commercial usage of that or what were people using it for before that?

[A]

Yeah, I mean it was. Everyone has the story of the ice bath post game or whatever. That had been a thing but it.

[B]

Was the ice bucket challenge.

[A]

Ice bucket challenge was a thing of just cold water on your head. But it really wasn't about like why are we. It was just like oh this is a crazy thing. Yeah, Wim was the first to kind of put it in some beneficial format of like separate than just like getting your quota. Not that we were using these words but your inflammation down from post workout or something like that. You know, Wim had brought it into a whole new category around immune system and energy and mood. And so that was like kind of the start of it. But they're really the products on the market really was a chest freezer. That was kind of what the start was. People were building a chest freezer that you normally put meat in and filling it up with water caulking them and they were just like filling up the water. So that was kind of trough for.

[B]

Livestock with ice 100 and that was it which is a real thing.

[A]

And you'd empty it every you know, month or you know, ideally sooner.

[B]

So that's a science experiment waiting to happen.

[A]

You see some nasty, nasty stuff growing. And so that was, that was kind of. We were like there was no market. It was a really fringe kind of super biohacky space that was early adopter and so you know, launch creating this product that was like we want a beautiful product that looks good, that the wife's going to like it, she's going to sign off on the purchase and like it looks good in the home, it functions. And so that was the start of it and it just you know there was clearly a pent up market that we didn't even really foresee. And obviously it's a, it's a much better category now. So that was, that was the extent of the business. And we, you know we had, there was. The business plan was let's build 20 quote unquote and we will put like a 10 to 12 week lead time on these things. We'll just hand deliver to their home. So we were just driving on Northern California dropping them off and then you know the business starts taken off and we have to figure out how to ship these things. And we figured we went from you know, we were a service brick and mortar business to a E commerce hardware manufacturing business. Completely different. We had no. What we've learned over the last five years is completely different. Entrepreneurs, entrepreneur, you know, how to take action, you know, you know focus on the most important thing. But we didn't. The skill set that we have in the business now is very different than what we had learned on our previous businesses. And so you know, it was just we you know have since grown into. Now we do saunas. We sunsetted all of our first generation products, have all of our new products now that we design, engineer in house and develop.

[B]

Where'd you get the first generation ones? I mean having the idea of hey I got, let's start an online business. That's great. How did you find a dude who knew how to make a cold plunge or a gal?

[A]

It was Mike and I in the garage making them. Like Mike? Yeah, I mean like we, you know it was like into Mike's credit. Mike's kind of like the guy that's like it's not that hard. Like he's. He go over indexes like I could figure this out and it's which I appreciate and I'm not a product guy at all. Like in fact I those early days being in the garage when I had to like cut BVC pipe and glue, things like that is like viscerally uncomfortable for me. Like I have like childhood trauma from that. Like it's not just like oh I don't like doing this. It's like this is my edge and you know, questioned why am I doing this? I'm a successful entrepreneur. I, I don't like I Am so uncomfortable here.

[B]

Meanwhile, have arts and crafts in the garage.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so we're. We're there in his garage in Sacramento. Neighbors. We had to move out because neighbors were getting so pissed at us into. You know, we have these tubs. We're draining them, filling them, testing them. Garbage is like lining the house.

[B]

And so where'd you find the original tub design? Or did you just go something that was already on the shelf?

[A]

Yeah, so it was on the shelf, but it was crazy. So Mike had. This is one of the kind of the synchronistic parts of the business. He had looked in freestanding bathtub, and the largest supplier was 30 minutes down the road.

[B]

No way.

[A]

In. In woodland. And so we. Mike had a van that he would camp in. And so we were able to fit one tub. It was like, perfect size that we could fit one of these tubs in. And we drive down and they were just like, oh, we have like, messed up units like that were not. So we were able to build the early prototypes. Like, they would just give it to us for like 100 bucks or something.

[B]

Off of bathtubs, essentially.

[A]

Yeah, these were. These were freestanding. The original ones were a. Already on the market. Freestanding bathtub. Like this symmetric unit that. You see the white units.

[B]

Michael, go to. It's plunge.com, right?

[A]

Plunge.com.

[B]

Yeah, I want to pull this up so we can take a look at these things.

[A]

So the. The. The ones you'll see now, those are all like, design. Those tubs are completely different designs. Similar, but yeah.

[B]

So the torture device on the right and then the awesome device on the left.

[A]

Yep. You got the sauna go in between. If you just like, X out of this in the corner. Oh, there it is. And then if you just go like, up at the top, cold plunge would probably be the one.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The all in is kind of like our main.

[B]

Oh, wow. Man. You guys got a variety of those things.

[A]

Yeah, so we. This one's like our kind of bestseller. Fully integrated. It's just like a really. It's a small footprint for what this is.

[B]

You can see the origins of the bathtub model and.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Like, the. The origins are there, but it's.

[B]

That's obviously not cold water. She's enjoying that. What? Go to hell. She's enjoying that far too much.

[A]

I think we did cool that down to, like. It's a rule now when any models get in, we have to have it in the 50s at least.

[B]

All right.

[A]

To get a reaction. So anyways, this. These Tubs. Yeah. This, this unit's one that we designed and you know, that's our ip. The original unit though I would say the kind of. The genius of it was it was all off the shelf parts. So we, we didn't have to develop a supply chain. We're able to purchase like everything like our original unit. It's not on this site. You'll see these black chillers now and they're called the. The company's called Active Aqua. And the real company out in China is called Hyla. That has become. So we, we found this company and they were a hydroponic little chilling box. And we were like, oh, this could work for chilling the units. On the original unit, it wasn't. We'd have to like come up with any. Because chilling water is a very complicated thing. It's like as hard. It's like up there with H vac like it is. It's a constant.

[B]

It's the hardest part of the process by far.

[A]

It is, it is a. That is a very. Heating a sauna. Easiest shit in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cold plunges, very complicated refrigerant compressors. A lot of things that can go wrong. Like a lot of different environments that a unit working in Phoenix. So compared to a unit working in. In New York, at different environments you have to find this like really sweet spot to keep cold water, keep water, Cold water going. But anyways, this chiller was there. We had this. We. We just bought one and we started using them. That company who was doing hydroponics by far sells way more units for DIY cold plunges now. And they have blown up. I mean we're talking like the Active Aqua chiller is like the sworn by. They completely shifted their business model. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so it's the DIY fix for people. Yeah.

[A]

There is a lower, you know, if you want. There are some people that like to build and you can do it more affordably than obviously buy a cold plunge. Yeah. But if you just want it showing up, you know, support system, everything there. Like we, you know, now like our big thing where we're taking this too is we have assist. We have a backend firmware. What that means is there's two fronts to it. First, think of like your Tesla. Teslas get updates over the air every month. You know, they're updating your unit, making it more efficient. They learn things about the data that's coming in. That's the same with our cold plunges. So we can, we can learn how to efficiently run them better. We can actually get preemptive alerts like, oh, you're coming up on an issue within your unit. We can lock the unit. We can. Or if you call in, we can look at the back end. Hey, we're noticing an issue with your unit. So that's like a kind of a interest, like, really exciting one on the Iot side, and then the other side, you know, we were just kind of knocking the wearables. But we really want to, like, coach people into how to cold plunge because we see so many people that just think, I should go 37 degrees and suffer through this, where there are clear signals of how your heart rate showing up in the water to show if you're getting net benefit or net net harm. And so that's a pro, a feature we're going to be rolling out in about 2/4 where you'll get, like a score every time you get in based off your whoop, your aura, your Apple watch. It'll basically say, hey, we actually recommend you raise the temp by 3 degrees and you go 30 seconds less based off of the goals that you're looking for within this.

[B]

Smarter, not harder is what you're talking about 100%. Just because this was such the mentality of my old job. If it's more difficult, it must be more good.

[A]

There's a place for difficulty.

[B]

There is, but there's also a place for working intelligently and far surpassing those that are just smashing their head against the wall for the sake of smashing their head against the wall.

[A]

It's outcome. I mean, I think most of us are looking for outcome of why we do something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah, and there are times that you, you know, you run the marathon, you got to do 26 miles, you got to do the hard thing to get to that outcome. But most of the time, you know, for this, it's like it is to feel better, like, in the most simple form. We people buy this product because they want to have more energy with their grandkids. They want to, you know, play pickleball longer, like, so you don't need to go crazy with it. In fact, we recommend people go a lot less crazy than what we've seen kind of out in the world.

[B]

It's interesting to see this stuff specifically with saunas, too, because most traditional gyms weren't going to have a cold plunge. I mean, maybe saw one that had the old school, like, literal cow drinking trough in it, but these people, I mean, people now are bringing this ability into their house.

[A]

That that was what covet shifted. Covet took you only do this at a gym. To the home build out. Yeah, like accelerate. I think the trend was going there, but it like went fast into, oh, I could put this in my home. I can have a home spa.

[B]

I can have like legit home spa, home gym. Like, better than you're gonna get. Michael, click on the sauna one too. When did you. So how many years in did you realize that you needed the heat aspect as well?

[A]

It was pretty early that we, so we, we. This was not a part of our plan. We basically had launched the cold plunge. Our customers were reaching out. Hey, who do you recommend or will you ever build one? That was like within our first year. We did a survey. It was like 40% were like, we want to buy a sauna now. So it took us about 18 months to 2 years to develop the top one. The Plunge XL or the sauna. Excuse me, the sauna there on the left. It's a high heat traditional sauna, you know, made of cedar. And so we launched that beginning of last year.

[B]

And easier to design than the cold plunge.

[A]

It was. I think the design there were some, like, nuance to this design. You can see the features of how the angles are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this all comes modular and it's. It's in a panel format. Which most high heat saunas you got to build like wood, piece of wood by piece of wood. Where this comes in like eight pieces and it's a. It takes about half the time, as I would say a traditional, like either barrel sauna. So that was like a feature we wanted to get to. So that was some design, like how to actually what the angles need to be to hold this up. But other like the heating.

[B]

What is the heating element? Electric.

[A]

It's electric. We use a. That was one that we went off the shelf with a company out of Estonia called Hume. They have a number of different styles that was important to us. They have a back end system that we can work off our app. It's also, esthetically, I think they do a really good job.

[B]

Oh, they look sick.

[A]

Yeah. With the stone, so you can create the steam on the inside. So, yeah, this, you know that, that middle one, the mini is a unique product that it's. We don't really solve price point, but we solved space to have a small high heat sauna.

[B]

I mean, it looks about the size of a traditional closet.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a two to three person. It's like, you know, infrareds. What are nice is you can put them in a lot of spaces. They're mostly indoor, where this one we, you know, people that don't have a ton of backyard space, you usually aren't able to get a high heat sauna. And so that's one where it's, you know, cranks up to 215.

[B]

That's plenty hot too.

[A]

Plenty.

[B]

That'll get her done.

[A]

Dude, I'm, I'm 185 and I'm like, that's great for me. In 20 minutes I'm, you know. Yeah, you can sit in there and.

[B]

Not forget the fourth grade.

[A]

Exactly, exactly, man. So, yeah, so then the, yeah, the bigger ones get up to 230, but that's kind of our. That's the crazies that are taking it up there consistently.

[B]

What's the hardest part about being an entrepreneur?

[A]

Well, this answer varies, but I think right now it'd be like, I can't turn it off.

[B]

You mean thinking about this particular products?

[A]

Yeah, the products. What's going on in the business, what I need to solve, you know, And I mean that in a sense of like, like there's a privilege to that, of like a responsibility. And that's great. Like, I'm on. I love what I do. There is the other end of that spectrum where it's like, dude, lay this down for a second. Like you can focus over here and do something else. And that's kind of the season I'm in right now, I would say is the hardest part.

[B]

Have you ever done the exercise where you split a piece of paper? It's the circle of influence versus circle of concern exercise. So you get a piece of paper and split it down the middle and on one side you put influence, which could read for most people, things you can directly control. Concern would be things that occupy your mind that you're really worried about. But if you think about it, you don't actually have that much control over. And every time I've done this exercise, the right hand side column is robust. And I realize I'm putting almost all of my energy in that, but I can't control it. I can worry about it all I want to. There's only actually one thing you can put in the circle of influence, and that's yourself. The way you talk to yourself, your actions, speech, behaviors, all of those things. And so for me, it really helps because I don't consider myself to be an entrepreneur mostly because I don't know the actual definition of the word other than somebody that starts businesses, which is.

[A]

Like, yeah, I guess that's a start. What is the. What does that entrepreneur mean it probably.

[B]

Varies by person as well.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But I. It's amazing how much bandwidth I can apply to things that I can't control. And then I asked to ask myself, why am I so worried about this? Is worry gonna change outcome? No, it won't. But I can probably influence outcome by working on myself, forcing myself to put my phone down, forcing myself to get in the sauna at the end of the night or. You know what I mean? Like forcing yourself to take care of yourself first will then impact all of those other things indirectly that you might be concerned with. But it's a powerful exercise because almost everybody spends all their time worrying about things they can't control.

[A]

Live up. And I totally get that. And it's like, that is. It's probably the best part of being an entrepreneur is like the action. Like the right column usually starts to fit, but it starts to fade if you take action on something in the left column.

[B]

It's interesting to see it in black and white though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How much is just this arrayed and the other column and what you really can only put yourself. That's all you can put. You have control over nothing else in life.

[A]

That's a. That's an interesting thought because then there's like, even to your point, I'm sitting here like, oh, what am I in control?

[B]

It's like you're nothing.

[A]

We're not.

[B]

You cannot control how many people are going to come and purchase your product. Or if there's going to be Covid 26 or whatever it would be. Or if research is going to come out tomorrow, which I would support. That says cold plunging shortens your lifespan. I might actually create that study with no data to support it whatsoever.

[A]

N of 1.

[B]

Doesn't matter. I'll leave that part out of the study. It'll be a double blind, triple blind even, because I won't share it with myself or my self's third person Persona.

[A]

What would be your. The control group? So you would just.

[B]

I would just make numbers.

[A]

Make numbers up. Yeah.

[B]

10,000 people probably got it.

[A]

So is this. This. This podcast is more of a hit podcast. You're out.

[B]

No, like I said, it's. I'll take the 300 pound Samoan. But I do understand the benefit of it. My wife actually we went and did some breath work. We did an event where they did breath work and then cold plunge and sauna. God, she locked in and it's.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

She's tougher than I am though. But it's cool. I mean, I get it. It's. For me, it's psychological. Completely psychological. I'm just. I'll get over the hurdle one day.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's. Look, cold. Plunging is one of those things. It's. It sucks every day.

[B]

But I tell you what, that's one you can put in the control bucket, right? You can control how much you don't want to do it. Actually, you can't control how much you don't want to do it, but you can get yourself flipping the lid off and actually stepping in that thing.

[A]

Yep. Yep. And that there's something that's the unquantifiable part to that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Too cold. Where it's like actually doing that. You're overriding some narrative that's like every single day, the steps, walking out, there's a voice that's there. Dude, you don't got to do this today. Like it's a real thing. But then you get out and then I do feel great. And there is some neurological pathway that's being rewritten that is compounding over time. And that's. That's one that's, you know, and it might show up in metrics down the road. It might show up in, you know, I don't know, like your testosterone increasing or immune system.

[B]

Superman would say that it helps in many ways, but he uses words that I don't know. So I can't really tell if he's telling the truth.

[A]

But I think there's like a. There is a. There is some synergy there. Like having that pathway. I would. I have no clue how it's played out in my life, but having some consistent ritual that I show up. And the thing I like about this is it's. It's as simple like it's two minutes. Like I don't have to give much time to doing something to transform from feeling a certain way to feeling how after I get out. And there's very few, even on a drug format that you can take it and it hits that quick.

[B]

That's true, actually.

[A]

And I. That's like what I. Especially in this modern day where, like I came from the float tank world. Float tanks aren't really growing right now because no one has 90 minutes to go do nothing. Nothing. Like, I do think it's beneficial. I own the place and I'm not in there very often. So I know with our modern day, it's hard to go give time. Like time is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Our attention's not really there. We see it on how our apps are created and Everything in our life is much more consolidated. Where cold is to me, in relation to where the modern world's going, you can do something very quick. Even high heat saunas, it's 15 minutes. Get in there, you can have it and you can have a full reset.

[B]

Of your body and you could cycle through the cold to hotter. And again, I kind of heard so many protocols from going one way or the other, but go through one of those. Maybe it's 30 minutes. It is. There is nobody that I know of, and so this is anecdotal, but everybody I've ever done that experience with. Holy cow. You want to talk about a physical feeling different and psychologically that's real for sure.

[A]

Totally. And you can do it with your wife, you can do it with your friend. Like, the thing that I love now is I have my friends come over on Sunday and we do sonic culpunge together. And that's like a time we get to spend an hour together. It's like super connected. We have great conversation where I probably wouldn't be hanging with them that, like, yeah, I would if I didn't have this. And it's not just sauna and cold plunge, but like, what are like these type two things, you know, rucking super big now, like, can you go out, get out on a ruck, do it 45, 60 minutes, put some weight on, go have some good conversations. Like finding these things that, you know, you're doing something hard and you're kind of suffering over. It's like CrossFit was so good when it launched, you know, and they. It was a suffering mechanism that you connected through and then you felt good after. And, you know, it's. Why even, you know, not in the military, but the mil you guys suffered through and the bonds that were probably created.

[B]

Camaraderie is humor and shared suffering.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

I mean, it's really what. And if you think about. There's an aspect of that and all those examples that you. That you mentioned, what's your. When they come over for an hour, how do you guys cycle through the hot cold?

[A]

We do. We get right into the hot and then we'll do like two cycles and we'll usually go crank it probably around 190, do like 20 plus minutes or until just each day, like one of us is like, where I got to get out. We kind of push it for a second there, then we go get cold.

[B]

So you go hot, cold, hot, cold?

[A]

Yeah, we usually try and end on the cold in the evening. I usually end hot if it's like midday or earlier. I'll go all and on the cold to get that energy. So. And again there's no seeing like you said, so many different protocols, so many different dynamics to what works for some people. I honestly think it's kind of like diet. Like diet varies per person and I do think getting hot and cold is not some blanket statement that works in the same way for every single person. So anyone listening, like figure out your own protocol. Like don't listen to people that just say it's not good for women or it's only men at this point should like those are generally statements that I don't think serve much but you got to figure it out on your own kind of what, what works.

[B]

What are you guys looking at in the future? Do you have any other products? I don't want you to obviously release.

[A]

Anything secret, but yeah, well you know there's always improvement on the current product line that go like deep into the systems that we want. I think we're really our app and how we connect to the customer I think is a big opportunity for us and it won't be for everyone to use their wearable but I think a personal coach that helps you with using these tools is I think a big opportunity for us. And then there's some other categories that once they hear but net new stuff that I think is our direction is we want to be your. Your one stop shop for your home spa, your home health and wellness all connected to one simple system. You have it, you can control, turn everything on, turn it off from one place. So that's kind of how we think about it. Like a lot of our customers obviously this takes space so we really build for people that you know, mostly it's more backyard space. We're big in the commercial side so like that's more of our urban penetration of like okay, we do commercial products for people to go be into the urban environments and then really building for homes with space. And so we have a couple other obviously we're you know temperatures a direction for us. We like to, you know, what products can you impact temperature and then have you know resilience building but also improve your health. So that's kind of our framework of new product launches.

[B]

Do you consider yourself a successful entrepreneur, man?

[A]

Depends the day depends how I'm talking to myself. It's which I think is sometimes healthy and sometimes it's I need to.

[B]

It's tough when you can't define what success would look like totally.

[A]

And you know there's always let's say challenges and fires. And it's like, where am I? Where? As an entrepreneur, I think it's natural to focus on what's wrong. And that's what I'm solving for. I'm solving to how to improve. So a lot of my attention goes there. So it doesn't always feel like success. I do think it's important to step back and have a moment to be like, wow, this is like something as a company we're actually intentionally trying to do now is like, how do we increase the life of our wins? Like, we don't really. We can do better at celebrating our wins. And so it's something. We're looking at the company right now because it's always, yeah, what do we got to go solve the next big problem. So, man, that's my kind of cop out answer is depends the day if I feel successful.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's fair. How big do you think you can get this thing?

[A]

I think, I mean, this can be a, you know, this industry's. If you're looking at health and wellness in general, that's obviously massive.

[B]

Yeah, it's billions.

[A]

What the TAM is there. But I mean, this, you look at just contrast space. That's a, that's a multibillion dollar industry that's evolving and emerging. I just look at the hot tub industry. Hot tubs are still doing 5 billion in annual sales a year. And that's, that's a product that you're not buying every single year. I'm buying a hot tub.

[B]

So there's like 10 year. That's like a 10 year purchase for those people.

[A]

Exactly. And so that's, you know, that's a directional category. And then I look at like the younger demo and when I say, what's the aspirational purchase right now? It's a cold plunge, it's a sauna. It's some of these, like when I get a home, that's what I want to get. So I, you know, I think we're set up really well for kind of the long term too. I know these products work. I think we're, we just signed on with a really cool partnership with. Yeah. University of South Carolina Medical Center. So we're gonna start doing some really cool studies with a group down there that I think is. There's studies that are being done, but there's some preliminary stuff, especially around the cold, that I think early on that we're excited to go explore of. Really, as the cold is preliminary and this is no real results out yet. But like on like neurodegenerative diseases, so long term dementia and some of these, like really we're finding. There's a theory. We have a theory around cold being a huge. Basically a great tool you can use to. We have a system. We have a glymphatic system, so we have our lymphatic system and then we have this system in our brain that every night when we sleep, it flushes out this toxicity that forms up around our brain. So we have a bad night's sleep or we get stressed, this area can build up. And that over time is what can lead to some of it like dementia or some of the. Even depression or some of these things down the road. And what they're finding is norepinephrine is the flush to the system. Cold is probably the greatest onset of norepinephrine that you can put into your body.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

So that's. There's a. We. We see some strong correlation with getting cold and having that flush to your system. So if you have a bad night's sleep, getting cold is one of the best things you can do, really. And getting, getting your energy back, getting that flush to the system. Yeah, you still need to get that night's sleep the next night. And if there is compounding issues. But it is a great tool to kind of reset your system. It's a great tool for jet lag. You know, when you're off and you're kind of again, kind of in that sleep capacity. Hot and cold are both great there. So, you know, we want to study like how these tools are. Everyone feels great, but like, what, what at the core, what are they doing? So those are. Those are areas that we're going to be exploring over the next couple years.

[B]

Hell yeah. Well, I got to get you out of here because you guys get at Missoula, that's about 90 minutes. What do you want to close out with? What do you want to leave people with? Don't believe me when I talk about the cold. Believe you? My experience is only my own. Everyone, this is just trauma coming through what I say.

[A]

Yeah, totally. I mean like, obviously, you know, own plunge and I don't know what I want to leave people with. You know, discover what works for you, man.

[B]

What advice for somebody who wants to be an entrepreneur? What would you give them?

[A]

I would say, well, like have some self awareness into like what you want to go start. Like do you have the skill set or some wherewithal to do the thing? If not, I am big into go get around the people that you would want to that have what you have or have are building what you aspire to build. Maybe not the exact same company, but to me that is our greatest like strength as a human. When we get around our, you know, we are the sum total. We say the five people. Don't know if that's exactly accurate, but go get in the vicinity of whether it's an online community in person. So that would be my first. If you're like looking to get started, there's who are you surrounded by? And really start there.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

Plunge.com thanks for having me on man.

[B]

Go punish yourself.

[A]

Get in. Get in. Perfect. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to Libsyn ads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.