Episode 400 - Katarina Szulc - Cartels Infiltrating Canada and The Wide Open Northern Border

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 400 - Katarina Szulc - Cartels Infiltrating Canada and The Wide Open Northern Border

Podcast Information:

• Title: Cleared Hot
• Host: Andy Stumpf
• Guest: Katarina Szulc
• Episode Title: Cartels Infiltrating Canada and The Wide Open Northern Border
• Release Date: August 4, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 400 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf engages in a profound and intense conversation with Katarina Szulc, an investigative journalist specializing in organized crime and cartel activities. The episode delves deep into the alarming infiltration of Mexican cartels into Canada, the challenges posed by the wide-open northern border, and the pervasive fentanyl crisis exacerbating violence and societal issues on both sides of the border.

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Cartel Infiltration into Canada

Katarina Szulc provides an eye-opening analysis of how Mexican cartels, particularly the Sinaloa Cartel, have entrenched themselves within Canadian organized crime groups (OCGs). She explains that these cartels have diversified their operations beyond drug trafficking to include money laundering, human trafficking, and even oil theft.

Katarina (05:02): "The United Nations started working with the Sinaloa cartel to traffic BCB into the US because they were the delivery mechanism."

The collaboration between Mexican cartels and Canadian OCGs has led to sophisticated and widespread operations that are often underreported and underestimated by authorities.

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Organized Crime and Gender Roles

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the role of women within these criminal organizations. Katarina highlights that while cartels are predominantly male-dominated, women play crucial roles, primarily in financial operations and, in some cases, even in violent acts such as body disposal.

Katarina (06:41): "There are women who play roles for the most part. Like the significant women in the cartels are family members of the higher level guys and typically run operations like money laundering."

She also notes the misogynistic backlash she faces as a female reporter, emphasizing that criticisms often stem from underlying sexism rather than the content of her reporting.

Katarina (04:21): "I see a lot of the comments, the hate ones are like rooted in misogyny."

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Challenges in Tackling Cartel Presence

Taxes and Corruption: The pervasive corruption within Canadian institutions poses a significant barrier to effectively combating cartel activities. Katarina points out that many cartel-affiliated individuals hold influential positions, making it difficult to implement meaningful reforms or crackdowns.

Katarina (26:35): "We have these guys that are flourishing with such high levels of impunity and corruption."

Law Enforcement Limitations: Both Canadian and American law enforcement agencies struggle with limited resources and fragmented jurisdiction, hindering coordinated efforts to dismantle these transnational criminal networks.

Katarina (17:51): "They're not setting out massive operations to take on organized crime stuff that's happening in Canada."

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The Fentanyl Crisis and Public Policy

Impact of Decriminalization: The discussion touches on public policy decisions, such as the decriminalization of drug use in parts of Canada, which Katarina argues has inadvertently worsened the addiction crisis by increasing the availability of drugs like fentanyl.

Katarina (07:02): "They put porta potties up in this area and found a fetus that was just birthed into the porta potty."

Policy Failures: Katarina criticizes the lack of cohesive national strategies to address the fentanyl epidemic, pointing out that existing measures like safe consumption sites have been ineffective or counterproductive.

Katarina (24:28): "It was to address criminalization, but they had to switch back. But no one who's actually doing it switched back."

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Personal Experiences and Mental Health Impacts

Exposure to Violence: Both Andy and Katarina share personal anecdotes about their experiences with violence, illustrating the profound psychological toll that reporting on such intense and traumatic events can have.

Katarina (60:07): "I have the craziest nightmares... I saw my mom die when I was 4 years old."

Mental Health Struggles: Katarina openly discusses her struggles with nightmares and symptoms of PTSD, emphasizing the emotional burden she carries from witnessing extreme violence.

Katarina (62:46): "I have pre-symptoms of PTSD... But I'm a huge proponent that it's about the story because I'm not the victim here."

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Policy Responses and Their Shortcomings

Insufficient Crackdowns: Despite recognizing the severity of the cartel infiltration, Katarina points out that Canadian authorities have been sluggish and ineffective in their response, often deferring to U.S. initiatives without addressing underlying issues.

Katarina (130:08): "Canadian law enforcement needs cohesive data gathering between RCMP and CSIS to tackle this issue effectively."

Gun Control Issues: The podcast also covers the rampant straw buying and illegal gun trafficking from the U.S. into Canada, exacerbating the violence and empowering cartels.

Katarina (39:40): "Nobody talks about how much of an issue straw buying is. From the States into Canada, there are so many illegal guns."

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Impact on Communities

Downtown Eastside, Vancouver: Katarina describes the dire situation in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside, where open drug use, homelessness, and extreme violence are prevalent. She attributes the worsening conditions to policy failures and the overwhelming presence of cartel-related drug trafficking.

Katarina (20:27): "The BC government decriminalized public use of drugs, which made it worse."

Generational Addiction: The conversation highlights how addiction has become a generational issue, with Katarina pointing out the high prevalence of fetal alcohol syndrome and chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) among individuals struggling with addiction.

Katarina (21:05): "Most of the people here that are in the throes of addiction were born to addicted parents."

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The Futility of the War on Drugs

Both hosts express skepticism about the effectiveness of the ongoing war on drugs, noting that despite massive financial investments, demand remains insatiable, and cartels continue to thrive.

Andy (154:07): "We've thrown a trillion dollars at it over 57 years, and we're not any closer to the solution."

Root Causes Unaddressed: Katarina emphasizes that without addressing the root causes of addiction and societal breakdowns, efforts to curb drug trafficking will remain futile.

Katarina (155:00): "What are you gonna do? You're gonna make everything legal. It doesn't stop."

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Personal Anecdotes and Closing Remarks

Katarina's Story: Katarina recounts a particularly impactful story of an eight-year-old girl in Alberta who was brutally murdered by her stepmother, highlighting the emotional and professional challenges she faces as a reporter covering such tragedies.

Katarina (145:52): "The murder of a little girl... she was really, really cute... she was murdered in such a brazen and awful way."

Mental Resilience: Both hosts discuss their coping mechanisms for dealing with the psychological strain of their work, with Katarina emphasizing her commitment to telling these vital stories despite personal hardships.

Andy (73:36): "If the reporting is that important, the worst thing could happen is for you not to be able to do that anymore."

Future Coverage: Katarina expresses her intent to continue reporting on organized crime and is planning to expand her coverage to regions like the Middle East and North Africa, despite the inherent risks.

Katarina (134:25): "I'm gonna keep covering organized crime and FTPs."

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Conclusion

Episode 400 of Cleared Hot offers a comprehensive and harrowing look into the infiltration of Mexican cartels into Canada and the broader implications for public safety, policy, and community well-being. Through the candid dialogue between Andy Stumpf and Katarina Szulc, listeners gain invaluable insights into the complexities of organized crime, the failures of current policies, and the personal toll taken on those who dare to report these dark realities. The episode underscores the urgent need for cohesive and effective strategies to combat the pervasive influence of cartels and address the root causes of addiction and violence.

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Notable Quotes:

• Katarina (04:15): "It's rooted in misogyny. And if you were trying to say I drive the exact white Lamborghini that they used in Miami Vice, that's cool."
• Katarina (06:41): "Women play significant roles, typically running operations like money laundering."
• Katarina (20:27): "The BC government decriminalized public use of drugs, which made it worse."
• Katarina (45:25): "I've watched people die, but being a reporter allows me to shed light on stories like these."
• Andy (154:07): "We've thrown a trillion dollars at it over 57 years, and we're not any closer to the solution."

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Final Thoughts:

The conversation between Andy and Katarina encapsulates the intricate and often concealed dynamics of cartel operations in Canada, the systemic failures that allow them to flourish, and the profound personal impacts on those who strive to uncover the truth. This episode serves as a crucial reminder of the ongoing battles against organized crime and the human stories that lie at the heart of these conflicts.

Transcript

[Katerina]

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[Andy]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north or south?

[Katerina]

West of the smoke, west of the smoke.

[Andy]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[Katerina]

Oh, wait a minute.

[Andy]

Give it to me.

[Katerina]

I mean it.

[Andy]

You're cleared hot.

[Katerina]

Can't be cleared hot. If I got cooked yesterday, there would be people who'd be very happy about that.

[Andy]

I've heard that. You should never read the comments. What are your thoughts on that?

[Katerina]

I fully agree and I don't. But I have people friends send me comments, which sucks. And I'm always like, don't do it. But I've also gotten some really positive comments, which is nice.

[Andy]

Are your comments generally more negative than positive?

[Katerina]

No, they're more positive than negatives. But the negative ones are like really deep. Like they hit. They're not. It's not like haha, ugly dumb bitch. It's like, haha, I hope the cartel chops her head off. And we can watch it live on Twitter.

[Andy]

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[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Why do you think they say those things?

[Katerina]

Because I'm a woman reporting on something that's typically male dominated and I'm critical about these topics and I sometimes say controversial things or I talk about topics that are polarized and something that I started doing that I didn't typically do before was I do kind of give my opinion on certain things.

[Andy]

Which is fair given that you are immersed in the stuff.

[Katerina]

I believe so too. And I still, my reporting is still like really. It's thorough and for the most part it's unbiased. It's just a matter of when. I'm talking about certain ways cartels run operations and government responses. Yeah, I'm gonna have an opinion because I'm really well informed on a lot of it. So I can tell you this never worked historically. It's probably not gonna work this time. Which is opinion based. Right. It's like. So. But I think, yeah, there's a lot of reasons as to why I. Yeah.

[Andy]

I hadn't thought about the ratio of men to women involved with the cartel. There's gotta be some women.

[Katerina]

Yeah, there's, there's some. But also right now I have like a lot of visibility.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And I, I just think. And I, I see a lot of the comments, the hate ones are like rooted in misogyny. And my dad has even said it, he's like, fuck these people. They just don't like that you're. And especially Cause after Shanray and I said my age and people were like, what the hell does this 24 year old girl know about this? And she's definitely not actually going into those scenarios. She's just saying that to sound cool. And it's like, bro, if I was trying to say I like trying to sound cool, I would probably tell everyone that I drive the exact white Lamborghini that they used in Miami Vice. That's cool.

[Andy]

That would be dope.

[Katerina]

Exactly.

[Andy]

Even though you would want to upgrade that to a more modern Lamborghini, still white would be cool, but.

[Katerina]

No, but I want that one.

[Andy]

Was it a Lamborghini or was it a Ferrari?

[Katerina]

Was it a Ferrari? No, I think it was a Lamborghini. Can we search that?

[Andy]

This is the thing that's in the room for first off, let's test. Michael, do you even know what Miami Vice is? I mean, I've heard of it.

[Katerina]

Sonny Crockett.

[Andy]

Oh, he's really. I was just about to ask him where he thinks it takes place, but.

[Katerina]

I feel that's a horrible question.

[Andy]

I didn't ask it though, because in my. I stopped myself. I got a little bit ahead. Lamborghini Countach. Okay. I thought it was a Ferrari for some.

[Katerina]

No. Because I also know that Jordan Belfort got a white Lamborghini in honor. Yeah.

[Andy]

Okay, that. Okay, I can connect those. What do the women do in the cartel? I'm going to guess they're probably not the low level muscle and.

[Katerina]

Or you'd actually be surprised. Okay.

[Andy]

Really?

[Katerina]

So, yeah, so obviously the majority are men. Duh. But there are like women who play roles for the most part. Like the significant women in the cartels are family members of the higher level guys. And they're typically running operations for like, money laundering. Yeah, they kind of run like the financial side of it. So, like a lot of the women in El Mencho's family, the leader of the Jalisco New Generation cartel, were sanctioned or arrested, or some of them even, not even on the radar, but for running the financial operations. But then I actually met a woman in Tijuana who had been there for years and years and was working as a posolera, which is someone who chops up bodies or like will chop off the finger or whatever to send for extortion and stuff like that.

[Andy]

They have an actual person dedicated to.

[Katerina]

Do that 100%, because it has to be someone who can do that.

[Andy]

Hmm. I wonder what the application process is like for that.

[Katerina]

So what I've heard is you go on LinkedIn and you basically, just stop it right now.

[Andy]

Stop it. I mean, seriously, how do you even think that? That maybe. You know what. Maybe what I want to do with my life is carve people up.

[Katerina]

I don't think people grow up saying that that's what they want to do. I think that they just end up in a situation where that's what's making them money and they have the capacity to do it. And I can also. What I think sometimes is that especially for women in organized crime, you do achieve a level of power. I think a lot of them, ones who are not family members of major cartels, were once victims and felt a sense of power once they became the victimizer. And so it's kind of like the tables have turned and you as a woman could lose a sense of humanity, become very jaded to an extent where you can do something that maybe your male counterpart wouldn't even be able to do the same way you are. This is a thing with female pimps, too, or like madams. Right? And a lot of the sex trafficking in Mexico actually has female madams, so they're the ones working the girls, like, running their living quarters, et cetera. And most of these women started off as human trafficked, like sex workers, too, in the beginning. So, yeah, I know to the regular person, especially because we're not in that, it's hard to fully grasp how someone could do it on a moral, even physical level. But it's very nuanced, so it's easy to understand. If you look into it, do you.

[Andy]

Think a cartel could ever have a woman as the head of it? Would they ever allow that? Like, if it was the wife or she was involved in running the financial side, and for whatever reason the male member got arrested or killed, would she ever be able to assume that role?

[Katerina]

I honestly don't think so. And it's because we haven't really seen it historically. I mean, like, the one example where we see a woman as, like, portrayed as the head honcho was Griselda Blanco. But really, Griselda Blanco wasn't even running operations to the same extent that you see, like, El Chapo, El Mayo, El Mencho. Really, like anyone from history, Caro Quintero. So I just. No, I don't know. And I. I would. I would like to dive deeper into that at some point in my reporting of just like, why can't or why hasn't a woman fully taken on the kingpin role in organized crime? And I'm sure that there's, like, a lot of actual psychological factors and also just like, in terms of the hierarchy of how who gets to the top works, but I don't know 100% for sure why or why not.

[Andy]

I feel like the cartels have some work to do reflexively or reflectively about diversity, for diversity and inclusion. Really. I mean, I don't think they're doing a good job.

[Katerina]

We don't have enough female representation in the cartel.

[Andy]

Not, I don't know, you know, some cartel members. I don't think I know any. So I'm going to need you to bring that up to them.

[Katerina]

You know, we're going to talk about this, and do you know what people are going to say? They're going to see, well, you know what? Shit. She is working for the cartels. People tell me this all the time that I'm on their payroll.

[Andy]

Because you're allowed to essentially interface. Yeah. To be honest, from an outsider, it does seem. It is a question as to why would the cartels, if they know who you are? And again, cartel, like, what are we talking? We're talking thousands of people, right?

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Okay, so maybe cartels isn't people in organized crime. People in organized crime or people involved in these cartels, they know who you are. You have a public Persona. You report on these things. They do, in fact, it seems like, allow you to directly interface at a time. Why do you think they let you do that?

[Katerina]

Well, first of all, it's important to mention that a lot of the sources in organized crime that I lock down, it took a lot of time and it happened before I got the visibility that I'm getting now. I wasn't really public about it. For me, at first, this was something like, I'm very interested in this. I have always been interested in how organized crime groups operate and function. And then I want to get involved in it to see, like, I want to get involved in the reporting of it, to tell these stories and see where that can take me. And obviously, well, it's led me here. But at the beginning, there wasn't this fear from them of like, oh, my God, we're literally talking to someone who goes on Fox News, first of all. Second of all, I got a lot of nos, like, this is just a little pretext. So I got a lot of people turn me down. And I always say this, but, like, if I get no, like, I will just go ask someone else, like, because someone will tell you yes. Right. So I was like, attacking, like, I'm like, okay, who the fuck is going to talk to me? And then I. When I first started actually reporting on what these guys were telling me. I really made sure to maintain their anonymity. And it worked. And to this day, touch wood, I have never had a source been revealed, whether that's in organized crime, in law enforcement, anywhere in between. Because that, to me, that is life or death. Like, people ask her, like, are you scared like that they're gonna kill you, whatever. I'm like, the anonymity aspect is the life or death component. So if I don't maintain that and literally make that my top priority, then we're all fucked. Everyone who spoke so that I do that. And I think that a lot of these people, they want to show or talk about what they're doing because typically, especially if operations are going good, these guys have to be extremely low key and run under the radar. But if they get the opportunity to talk about it in a way where they're not who they are is not going to be revealed, it is flattering. It's a bit of an ego boost.

[Andy]

How do you think the people upstream of that feel, though?

[Katerina]

They get permission. So whoever I'm talking to is getting permission from that boss and this. So someone is telling them, yes, but.

[Andy]

Why would the cartel agree to that? Wouldn't they want to kind of operate in the shadows?

[Katerina]

Why would the cartel. Why would El Chapo allow Kate Del Castillo and Sean Penn to come to his literal house to talk to him about doing a documentary?

[Andy]

I feel like he was a fan of Sean Penn.

[Katerina]

I think he was a fan of Kate. Oh, are you being facetious?

[Andy]

No, I, you know, he didn't give.

[Katerina]

A fuck about Sean Penn. He was a huge fan of Kate because she played La Reina del Sur. She was in that telling.

[Andy]

She's. Listen, everything you just said, I don't have a clue what it was.

[Katerina]

I'm sorry. She's a Mexican actress who. So in the show that she is in, I don't know if it's still running, she was basically the female queen pin that we talked about. And he was enamored by that character.

[Andy]

So he loved that. But again, you know, the head of the car, there's still people, right? And who's to say the head, you know, El Chapo might not be starstruck by Sean Penn. I don't know.

[Katerina]

Yeah, but like, he. He was starstruck by Kate.

[Andy]

That's what I'm saying. So it was definitely her. But even him, right, he's running a multi. Who even knows how many zeros with his illicit business. And it's still starstruck by an actress. And so it's like, hey, come on into the house and we'll have a little chat.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And I'll bring. Bring your buddy Sean Petty. He's kind of a dork, but whatever.

[Katerina]

And a lot of these guys, in order to get to these high levels of positions that they're in, they have big egos. Like, they're very confident in themselves. And I'm actually not saying that as a bad thing. Cause I think, like. Like, really believing in yourself to that extent is important. And I think a lot of people lack it.

[Andy]

In that world where a lot of the currency is violence, that ego, that machismo is going to actually help you a little bit. You can take it too far.

[Katerina]

Yes. Which is what ends up happening. How these guys get caught. Honey pot, you name it.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

But I think that that ego component is also what pushes them to have this curiosity to speak with people like me, to kind of be like, look what I'm doing, and I'm not getting caught. Catch me if you can. I'm on the FBI's most wanted list, and I'm free, and I'm worth more money than most people will ever see in their entire lifetime. So I think that's a part of it. And also, I talked about this on Sean Ryan, but I'm unalarming because I'm a young woman. I'm not Mexican. And I'm typically speaking with people in organized crime that are with the cartel, so they are Mexican. I've obviously spoken with people in Canadian organized crime that are not. That's literally very diverse. So they keep it diverse.

[Andy]

I don't know if you've heard this from the official Canadian authorities that there is no organized crime. We may or may not have talked about this recently with the ironclad stuff.

[Katerina]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

[Andy]

There's no fentanyl here. North of the border.

[Katerina]

Less than 1%. Right. It's a crazy.

[Andy]

I think they said £10. I think, actually, I think the official statement was, we seized 10 pounds of fentanyl.

[Katerina]

I didn't see that. When was that?

[Andy]

It was probably just a few days ago. It was actually. I think it might have been in the campaign, or. No, it was when Trump was gonna tariff Canada.

[Katerina]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy]

And he was talking about the flow of fentanyl. And I believe Trudeau said, last year, we seized 10 pounds. He didn't say that. That was the total throughput. They seized 10 pounds. And that was just kind of the entire statement, which leaves a little bit of Room for how much did you not seize? What was the total amount trafficking through? But, I mean, I've mentioned this to you before on some of the other shows we've done. The narrative is deeply. This is not occurring up here. This is not a problem up here. The cartels don't have a presence up here. It's wild.

[Katerina]

They almost make it seem like there's no organized crime presence up there, is the problem. And I've been wanting to talk about this because also a lot of people, like, question, well, you know, if the Canadian government is saying it, then why. Why would they say this? Or, like, why would they say something that's untrue? Yeah, I know.

[Andy]

Let's just. Let's ask this rhetorical question to people. Do politicians always tell the truth? No. Okay, let's start there. Do they often lie for their own benefit or for partisan lines or what? Fill in the blank? Yeah. It's like nobody should be shocked by a politician not telling the entire truth.

[Katerina]

Particularly when it's coming from a federal government that doesn't have the resources to allocate to solving the problem.

[Andy]

Do you think that's the biggest issue? They just don't know how to solve it?

[Katerina]

Yeah. And that's what I've been told by guys in law enforcement who operate in organized crime investigations in Canada across the country, too.

[Andy]

Are they trying to tool it up? Is there any indication that they're trying to build capability to fight it?

[Katerina]

No. I mean, okay, here's the thing. There are these sort of bilateral investigations or operations that go down with like, DEA and this unit that I speak with in Canada to tackle organized crime stuff. But typically what's happening is these are operations that are set out by the dea, and then, like, Canadian enforcement is helping them achieve whatever the goal is.

[Andy]

Sounds like a good job for jtf, too. But I got some buddies who can do some work. They have a charter. It's one of the few. I mean, we couldn't do that here. We could not unleash JSOC to work inside of the contiguous borders in the United states.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Canadian, JTF2, a little bit of a different charter. Go get some.

[Katerina]

And these guys aren't. Even though they're doing that, they're not setting out, like, massive operations to take on organized crime stuff that's happening in Canada. And it's important to keep in mind. And I've been dying to talk about this, is that this isn't something new. Like, I. Yeah, I've just started talking about it and talking about Fentanyl. But I think the reason my push to do that is because fentanyl is so deadly. And when I first started working as a journalist, well, my whole life. But when I really locked in, my focus was on drugs in. In Vancouver because we have this huge problem.

[Andy]

I've been to skid row there.

[Katerina]

East Hastings.

[Andy]

Holy. I. I'm trying to. It was years ago.

[Katerina]

It's worse now. It got worse after Covid.

[Andy]

Oh, I bet. But I. I pretty sure it's one of those things. I didn't really pay attention to why we ended up there. And I think my buddy was taking me there specifically to show me. But I mean, hard to describe. What would be a good Google search that Michael could pull this up? Because I'm sure there's a picture like down below.

[Katerina]

You could literally just search up East Hastings, Vancouver.

[Andy]

East Hastings, Vancouver. I watch people openly shooting up, smoking. I watched a guy inject a needle into his arm, stand up with the needle still dangling, walk across the street. Which by the way was directly by two police officers.

[Katerina]

Yeah, they won't do anything.

[Andy]

Go to the other side and then just finish shooting. I don't know why that person did that, but I'm just standing there in shock and awe. Somebody just. He wasn't even holding the needle. He just. His normal swing of the arms with a needle just dangling out of his vein finished shooting up on the other side. Tense. Every version of. And I'm not an expert in any of this, but like psychosis, schizophrenia, watching people, first responders, narcanning people. And I was there for like 20 minutes and saw all of that in like 20 minutes.

[Katerina]

Yeah. It's really harrowing place.

[Andy]

And you're saying it's gotten worse from what I saw, because it was definitely pre Covid.

[Katerina]

So what happened was basically the BC government decriminalized public use of drugs and like having a certain amount of drugs on you. I don't remember the exact number.

[Andy]

Oh, boy.

[Katerina]

Yeah. I see here you could. That even that first photo is great.

[Andy]

The top left, Michael. That is about how many people were there.

[Katerina]

Yeah, it's packed.

[Andy]

And I. Not all of them were using, but I totally anecdotally, I would say 80% and completely consumer public facing.

[Katerina]

Yeah. So let's get into the social construct of exactly what's going on there and then I'll kind of tell you what.

[Andy]

Go to the next one too. Literally. The title is Vancouver is Awesome.

[Katerina]

That's. That's the name of the publication. Yeah.

[Andy]

Wow. Can you click on that? Michael make it bigger. Yeah, I have to go to the website. Well, then go to the website.

[Katerina]

And do you know that like the those apartment buildings that like a lot of people are using in front of, like up top, you know, there's still like 2500amonth for a one bedroom apartment.

[Andy]

Stop it.

[Katerina]

I swear. So that Balmoral Hotel is actually shut down. That was an sro.

[Andy]

Wow.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I mean, slightly off topic, but how do you recover once that is your life? That is what that's my first thought goes to. How do you turn your life around and get out of that? I mean, those people are deep in the trenches of addiction.

[Katerina]

So this is the thing. Actually, a lot of people that are there have fetal alcohol syndrome and also have cte. That's what the brain. Yeah, yeah. Because when I spoke to. There's this woman, I don't remember her name, but she. I spoke to her a few years ago and she's literally an expert on. This is. This area is called the downtown east side. She's an expert on the downtown east side. She's an expert on tent cities, the hierarchy of them, drug use, whatever. And she said that most of the people here that are in the throes of addiction were born to addicted parents. So this, a lot of this is actually generational. So when you say, like, how do you get out of this? You fucking don't.

[Andy]

Yeah, it sounds like you pass it on.

[Katerina]

I want to say a year ago or maybe two years ago, they put porta potties up in this area and they found a fetus that was just like birthed into the porta potty.

[Andy]

You've got to be kidding me.

[Katerina]

It's really dark what goes on there. There's a lot of rape. There's a lot of kidnapping and torture. A lot of indigenous women go disappearing from here. Canada has a major problem of missing and murdered indigenous women.

[Andy]

United States is no different. We're actually surrounded by quite a few tribes here in Montana.

[Katerina]

And so this and a lot of the pop. The population here, there are a lot of indigenous people who are on these tastings that are like in addiction, homeless. So there's a lot that's going on. This is not just people waking up and doing drugs or like people who got peer pressured into trying crack. It goes very deep. Right. And so I have a lot of compassion for these people because it is no way to live. And unfortunately for some people who were. They call themselves weekend warriors. They were like using heroin when they would party or smoking meth every now and then.

[Andy]

Just recreationally using meth.

[Katerina]

I know it sounds crazy, but I've heard it so many times that I know it. I know anytime tell someone for the first time, they're like, what the fuck? But there are a lot of people who consider themselves, or did consider themselves at one point in time to be a weakened warrior. When fentanyl hit the streets like hard in 2018, I want to say around that time all those weakened warriors became full fledged addicts who couldn't in any way maintain any sense of normalcy in their lives. So this whole situation on East Hastings just got worse. And then the B.C. government again allowed for like the open consumption.

[Andy]

What was their reasoning behind that?

[Katerina]

I think it was like to prevent unnecessary. Can we search it up? Because I don't actually know. Exactly.

[Andy]

So Portland tried this.

[Katerina]

We had like the same model with like the same safe consumption side.

[Andy]

It was decriminalization. And I'm not an expert in this. I believe it was. There was a couple things. One, less law enforcement activity around nonviolent crimes. Two, they were going to attempt to, maybe by decriminalizing it would destigmatize it a bit and people would be willing to come to same thing, like a needle swab, whatever it may be, because.

[Katerina]

But it made it worse.

[Andy]

Well, Portland has switched.

[Katerina]

Yeah, so did we. So did bc. It switched.

[Andy]

This is their reason.

[Katerina]

It was to address criminalization. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But they had to switch back. But no one who's actually doing it switched back. Like, you can go walk down East Hastings right now. I mean, I was just there and everyone's using openly. This also became a problem because then like safe consumption sites where people can go and like legally use or inject whatever we're getting put up by like kids, playgrounds and schools. And there would be needles and stuff. But then you have a lot of advocates saying like, well, they need to go somewhere and be integrated into society. And it's like, yeah, but like at the cost of like a vulnerable young person's safety. So a lot of this policy is just like deeply flawed because it's also so new now in terms of tackling organized crime. That shit. People ask me all the time, why don't you talk about how decriminalization will work? That's never gonna work. Because let's talk about how this all started. And this ties in the northern border, this whole scenario with trafficking from Canada to the U.S. and the Canadian OCG ties with cartels started before marijuana was legalized. Because we have this very notorious thing called BC Bud. Some of the best marijuana in the world apparently coming from British Columbia. And so one of the gangs that is operating in Canada, the United nations gangster, it's. Don't get it confused with the actual United Nations.

[Andy]

Not a bad name. Do they wear blue hats?

[Katerina]

I don't know if they wear blue hats, but it's because the guy who started the gang, he's this white guy, grew up around a lot of Asian people. We have a large Asian population in B.C. and I guess like when they were at a meeting to kind of talk about, you know, operations, someone walked in and was like, this looks like the fucking United Nations.

[Andy]

And the legend was born.

[Katerina]

Yeah. So anyways, the United nations started working with the Sinaloa cartel to traffic BCB.

[Andy]

Into the US because so they were the delivery mechanism. The cartel was.

[Katerina]

Yeah. So I guess this is, from what I know this is how it was working was obviously the United nations were producing the BC bud. And we saw like during this time just like so many grow ups everywhere. And then Sinaloa was receiving it or like buying it in the States and then distributing it through their networks across the United States. And this marijuana is very notorious. But then obviously marijuana becomes legalized. So yeah, we legalize it. But then you move on to something else. Like it's. So when people talk to me about that, I'm like, okay, well it doesn't matter. You could make everything illegal. It doesn't cease or sorry, legal. It doesn't cease to stop a black market need for something else. Because then what are you gonna do? You're gonna make. I don't know how far do you push the gauntlet and the next thing you know, like organ harvesting is like legalized and then I just don't understand.

[Andy]

It is interesting to watch. I mean California in the US was probably early on in this. If with the most states in the US will go medicinal first and then recreational. It seems to be the way that they'll open with California was a little bit of an early adopter. And then the illegal grows there exploded. And I've talked to, you know, I've had game wardens on and talking about the ridiculous illegal grows, diverting waterways, chemicals that are so incredibly dangerous, that are just being sprayed all over, destroying the environment, all these things in a state where it was legal anyway. And then they lateral. It was interesting to watch and research a little bit on how the cartels have shifted or just the drug traffic. The opioid crisis that fueled black tar heroin.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Coming across the border because that Was they were selling it for less than, you know, these pill mills started getting shut down, and they would just pull up into the parking lot of these prescription pill mills. Hey, you can't get your. Your oxy or codone or cotton, whatever it is, like, here's some black tar heroin. So they lateral to that to meth, to fentanyl. I mean, they're not stupid.

[Katerina]

No, I always give credit where credit is due, and they run it like a Fortune 500. And they're very smart.

[Andy]

They are responding to the market demand 100% quickly.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And then when we talk about that, a lot of people say, well, you need to cut off the demand. If you have people that have good luck with that. Yeah. And I mean, it's not that simple. It's not like the just say no type of thing. Because if you're born to someone who was using drugs during their pregnancy, you have fetal alcohol syndrome. And then you grow up in a violent situation. You're, you know, getting hits to the head. And now you have cte. You are a living, walking, talking recipe for disaster. I mean, addiction hits those people harder than anyone else. And I'm addicted to smoking cigarettes. Okay. And I don't have ct. I don't have fetal alcohol.

[Andy]

What are we doing here about this addiction?

[Katerina]

Typical person, continue to smoke is the same thing.

[Andy]

No, no, I said, what are we doing about this addiction?

[Katerina]

What do you mean?

[Andy]

You've determined that you have an addiction. What are we gonna deploy against this addiction?

[Katerina]

Absolutely nothing. Because I love it.

[Andy]

What do you love about smoking?

[Katerina]

It's delish. Okay, but listen, imagine sucking on a garbage can.

[Andy]

How is that delish to you?

[Katerina]

To you.

[Andy]

Okay, that's.

[Katerina]

One man's trash is another woman's treasure.

[Andy]

I don't know if that's accurate, but I understand where you're going with this.

[Katerina]

And where I'm going with this is imagine me, someone who's neurotypical and has had a seemingly easy experience, like, experiences over the course of my life. Bad shit, but nothing compared to a lot of these people. And you're saying that, like, just make sure that they don't want it anymore.

[Andy]

What, is it also designed to be addictive as well?

[Katerina]

Exactly. And when my first ever interview that I did with someone who was in the throes of addiction and living on East Hastings street, I was 12. I was in seventh grade, and we had to do a report on, like, drugs. And I got assigned. I think it was meth. And everyone, like, did their slides, and I was like, you Know what? What's the best way to deter people from using drugs? Go to talk to someone whose life was absolutely destroyed by it. Right? So I made my dad take me to downtown Eastside and walk down an alley. And there was this woman. And I will never forget her. And I was like, can we chat? And she's like, yeah, sure. And she was just about to shoot up. And I'm like, do you use meth? And she's like, yes. I'm like, look, I'm doing a school project on it. I just want to talk about it. And it was supposed to be just like a. What was your first time using meth? Like, what. What has. How has this changed your life? Type of thing. But it ended up turning into this really impactful conversation of just how much she had lost in her life that led her to use and how much more she lost. And I. I would love to know, like, what. Where she ended up, what happened? I'm assuming dead.

[Andy]

Unfortunately, the odds are not in her favor.

[Katerina]

Not at all. But at that point you realize, like, okay, you make this stuff legal and accessible, it's not gonna, like, what is that gonna do? And also then when they were handing out safe supplies, so, like, they were giving people drugs that obviously wasn't going to cause you to have like an overdose. The dosage wasn't high enough. People were still supplementing their safe supply with illicit drugs. And that takes us back to the marijuana thing. Yeah, well, you can still illegally go and buy weed.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

So it's just a lot of systematic failures in terms of trying to identify and deal with the crisis. And it creates this shitstorm that allows these organized crime groups to absolutely thrive and make bank with very little repercussions, honestly.

[Andy]

So the first time you heard about organized crime or you started digging into it was BC Bud being distributed. How has it grown since you've started to take a look at it? Because I am fascinated by the Canadian government's just stalwart. This is not a problem answer to this.

[Katerina]

Yeah, but I mean, they've been like that because if they really wanted to address this head on, the fentanyl epidemic would have been declared a national crisis. I would say three years before it was declared one, there would have been way heavier crackdown on labs and organized crime activity that's going on and the people involved in it, but we're just not seeing that. Okay. And when we do see some sort of seizure of fentanyl or some lab is cracked down on, the people responsible typically aren't spending Much time at all in jail. I mean, I talk about this all the time, that the Canadian legal system does not equal Canadian justice system. Because I believe that there's a very profound lack of justice in Canada. And aside from that, you have this huge open border that everybody knows about, and that's been being used as this pathway since the whole B.C. bud, illegal B.C. bud trafficking. Nothing was done about that. Now, I think a really good point of reference to understand how far the cartel's infiltration of Canada has come is to talk about how I was sent these WhatsApp screenshots from a Canadian individual who was being recruited by the cartel to take out hits on local gangsters for the cartel for $55,000 with explicit instructions on to get the Glock, get this amount of magazines, no children around. If you go to their house, make sure there's no family there. And then when I receive this, in order to verify, I start going back into these sort of big cases, these gangland cases that have happened in this region where this individual was supposed to be operating. And I looked at these public murders of known gangsters in Canada, and you connect the dots, and these hits were by the cartel put on by the cartel or by a gang that is very openly operating with the cartels?

[Andy]

Yeah, proxy of the cartel.

[Katerina]

Yes. And so, but who are they targeting?

[Andy]

Like, what kind of people are they targeting?

[Katerina]

Their adversaries, like other gang members?

[Andy]

Competition, essentially.

[Katerina]

Yeah, competition. It's fighting for the territory. Right. Or someone does someone dirty, a deal goes bad. And so when I first talked about this, people were like, why the fuck would they be hiring, like, these guys to take out the hits? Like, wouldn't they just send their Mexican cartel people in there? No, of course not. Because they want them to be under the radar. But also a shift that we've seen in the landscape of Canadian organized crime is actually trying to hire these ex boxers, ex military, ex. Something of, like, something that brings up the standard a little bit. Because the young, bottom of the barrel guys that they were hiring to take out the kit, the hits fucking sucked. There is a video. No, literally, when I was doing my first journalism internship and this was like my first murder that I covered, there was two guys. I'm sorry for laughing because I do think someone died in this.

[Andy]

I already think I know where this is going. Just banging it out in the street and hitting nothing.

[Katerina]

No, no, it's worse. They show up to the restaurant, they fucking shoot up the restaurant. I don't. I don't even think they killed the Guy, to be honest, I think he got hit, but that was the extent of that. When Buddy runs back to the getaway car, the doors are locked and the driver is trying to, like. And he's, like, trying to get into the car.

[Andy]

Does this video exist on the Internet?

[Katerina]

It's got to. I just.

[Andy]

So, Michael, I don't even know what kind of surgeon it's going to be.

[Katerina]

Burnaby, Cactus Club shooting. Getaway car driver. Like, something like that. Try to get those keywords, but Cactus Club, Burnaby shooting. I. It would have been in 20, 21 or 22 or 23.

[Andy]

I mean, that's day one stuff. You gotta leave probably, you know, maybe even leave the door open or, like, even the trunk.

[Katerina]

Just hop right in. Right.

[Andy]

I don't.

[Katerina]

I mean, anything.

[Andy]

But as long as the trunk, that's never.

[Katerina]

But get in the car and get out.

[Andy]

Yeah. Leave the door open, open to the car, leave the car running. I mean, please tell me you found something. I'm trying.

[Katerina]

It might be a little difficult, and I think CBC wouldn't have put it, but maybe Global or someone has it. But that was, like, kind of a turning point, because also, Canada goes through these stints where you have a lot of these gangland hits going on. And it's also like, does Canada, the.

[Andy]

Canadian government, acknowledge that, or how do they describe what's going on?

[Katerina]

It's more acknowledged provincially and municipally than. Than it is federally. Yeah. Because also considering the fact that, like, a lot of the gangs change per province, I'd say the ones that have, like, the national outreach are obviously, like, Hell's Angels, the United nations, and there's one I'm missing, but I can't think of it right now. And I don't want to say the wrong one. And so for those guys. Yeah. But for the most part, it'll be like the municipal police and government that are, like, addressing it, which also just makes it harder to tackle because you have, like, this small, smallest level of government taking this huge thing on that is, at this point, transnational. And so, like, Canada goes through, especially, like, in Vancouver, in Toronto, in Montreal. These are major cities, you'll have these stints where it goes through. Like, you know that there's a gang war going on because hits are being taken out left, right, and center. And one thing that actually does mirror that of, like, cartel hits is a lot of these hits that in the past few years that have been taken out in Vancouver are in broad daylight. We had one at the international airport. We had one at A really nice hotel in Whistler, which is like a mountain area in Vancouver. At fancy restaurants all the time, people.

[Andy]

Are getting gunned down.

[Katerina]

Yes. Yeah.

[Andy]

And that's wild to hear because, I mean, don't get me wrong, we have our fair share of gun violence, in case you haven't paid attention.

[Katerina]

Here in the US it's kind of hard to miss.

[Andy]

You know, Canada has some different gun laws, completely different.

[Katerina]

And yet there's still excess, which is.

[Andy]

Not the narrative that you hear because.

[Katerina]

Nobody talks about how much of an issue straw buying is. From the States into Canada there are so many illegal guns and every time someone is gunned down like that, it's always like, oh yeah, this weapon was recovered and the serial numbers have been scrubbed off and it's an American manufactured gun. And so Canada has done nothing to try to like inhibit that access. Mexico, on the other hand, actually did. Mexico sued American gun manufacturers recently.

[Andy]

Yeah, it didn't go their way, but recently, zero.

[Katerina]

Yeah, it completely failed. But I think it still sets a bit of like a standard and it brings attention to this issue of like Americans are bringing guns in to arm the cartels and now American border states actually have laws that try to prevent this. I think it's people who live in border states cannot. There's a certain amount of guns you can buy in a certain amount of time to make sure that you're not straw buying. I don't remember the exact number. I want to say it's like if you buy X amount of guns within X amount of time frame, like it's illegal because it looks like you're straw buying.

[Andy]

But it also doesn't take a very intelligent person to work your way around that system, obviously. Yeah. Recruit a couple buddies, you know, especially if there's a monetary reward.

[Katerina]

That's high too.

[Andy]

Yeah. I would hope that the designation of the cartels as a terrorist organization, one of the things that I am hoping that we see, everybody's like hell, we're going to send JSOC across the border.

[Katerina]

Yeah, everyone keeps asking me about that too.

[Andy]

I don't see that being the case. I don't think there's a boots on the ground full time presence. I don't know if there would be drone, maybe it'd be all of those things. But there's also a lot of stuff they can do north of the border. And one of them aiding and abetting a terrorist organization. Those people caught doing those straw buys hammer the living dog shit out of them.

[Katerina]

And that's what's happening.

[Andy]

Yeah. To the point where nobody ever wants to do that again.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

That doesn't solve, you know, one of the main issues here, where we live. Awesome that you get to see Montana for the first time, by the way.

[Katerina]

I'm loving it. Yeah.

[Andy]

Super rural crime is an issue everywhere in the world. It still, to this day, blows my mind. Firearm owners who don't treat it like what it is, a tool that is designed to take life. The old Montana holster where they just put it in the cup holder.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And go into a store and shockingly enough, they come out and a window is broken and your pistol's gone.

[Katerina]

We talked about this. Yeah.

[Andy]

It's like, what did you think was gonna happen? And also, where do you think that's going? So there's the straw by issue, and then there's the petty crime issue. And I talked to my law enforcement buddies. People who are addicted will do anything they can to get their next fix.

[Katerina]

100%.

[Andy]

They will take that gun and trade it upstream for drugs, whatever it may be. And then that enters into the. What are they called? The Iron Road or the Iron River. One of those two.

[Katerina]

The Iron River, I think.

[Andy]

Yeah. And so there's the straw by issue, but there's also the theft issue. Both of those are solvable. I don't know, maybe maintain positive control of your firearm.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And, you know, that would piss me off to, like, thinking about that where it's like, these are probably some of the very same people being like, we need to crack down on the cartels and fucking get us. But it's like, bro, you know, maybe you're inadvertently.

[Andy]

The hypocrisy is real for sure. It can.

[Katerina]

I think it's a lack of, like.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

Intelligence.

[Andy]

The straw by thing. I'm actually, I've watched. I was here at a. At a store locally. It was the Cabela's, and I watched a guy decline a sale because he thought that the person buying it was.

[Katerina]

You're joking.

[Andy]

It's the only time I've ever seen it. Yep.

[Katerina]

So how did it go? What was the interaction?

[Andy]

It was a man. I was casually window shopping, so I didn't intently pay attention until I heard him say, I'm not gonna sell you this today because you appear to me to be buying this for somebody else. And then I was like, hello, good sir.

[Katerina]

I get locked in.

[Andy]

Yeah. I'm like, hello, good sir. The person attempting to buy immediately walked out. That was the end of the conversation.

[Katerina]

He didn't say anything back?

[Andy]

No.

[Katerina]

Interesting.

[Andy]

Well, there's no Reason for them to. Because you're not going to talk them into changing their mind. And here's the reality. There's plenty of other gun stores.

[Katerina]

Yeah. He could literally just go somewhere else.

[Andy]

Yeah. So he did not make that sale. And that's the only time I've ever seen it.

[Katerina]

You know what's crazy though is that that happens, but that the person doesn't like get flagged across the board.

[Andy]

Yeah, that's. Cause like, I don't know what they would ne. I mean they would flag for being suspicious. I don't even know.

[Katerina]

Possible straw buyer.

[Andy]

Yeah. I don't even know how far along they were in the process. I didn't hear the conversation leading up to it, but I certainly started paying attention after. Cause the guy was. I am not gonna sell this firearm to you today because you are. You are giving me signs as if this is going to be a straw by purchase.

[Katerina]

How often do you think sales like that get declined?

[Andy]

Not very. Yeah, not very. Gun stores are in the business of selling guns.

[Katerina]

Yeah. So what would lead to someone declining that sale? Like, it must have had to been really overt.

[Andy]

You know, my suspicion would be that this individual is probably not trying to buy for a cartel member, but for like a friend. For a friend or a family member. And I bet what happened because they were doing some real Jason Bourne stuff is that they both kind of walked up to the counter before the person came up to help and somebody probably pointed and then walked off and pretended like they weren't, you know, like some pretty low level, non James Bond stuff likely occurred would be my guess. Well, maybe we'll call it some hillbilly stuff might have happened.

[Katerina]

And then they. I think they like legally have to decline you at that point. Right. Probably because they do that with lottery tickets. I'll never forget I was in Vegas with my dad. This is like a different never buy lottery tickets. Well, it's. I don't know, maybe it's like an eastern European thing. My, my dad and my bubja absolutely are obsessed. And we watch.

[Andy]

Have they ever won?

[Katerina]

Like, like a mounts, but not like the big.

[Andy]

Are they in the red or the black?

[Katerina]

I don't know. And I don't. I don't bother. But we walk into a gas station in Vegas and my dad's like, whatever, this pump. And. And then I was like, oh, you wanted lottery tickets, right? Like, can we get that one and that one? And she's like, no, you. I can't sell this to you because you're asking for It. I'm like, oh, sorry. Like it's for him.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And then he asked for. And she goes, no, no, no, she already asked, so you're done.

[Andy]

It might have been something along those lines.

[Katerina]

Yeah. Because then once I already said it, now if my dad, like, it's. It's done. So I wonder if that's how that works too.

[Andy]

I think the answer is the punishment for straw buying and arming a foreign terrorist organization is so startling and life shattering that nobody would want to do it. And then again, you still have to solve the secured access and just firearm owners treating them like what they are.

[Katerina]

But yeah, that crackdown, we're seeing it happen in real time because that woman was just arrested, I think, along with two other men in El Paso a few weeks ago, and she was the first person to be charged with material.

[Andy]

For material support to a terrorist organization.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

That's gonna be a way heftier penalty than whatever it was before that declaration.

[Katerina]

Yeah. Because it would have just been. What was it called? Not actually trafficking. The step before that. Like intent to traffic. Yeah. So it was intent to traffic, and then it was also straw buying. And. But now because of the designation, she got hit as the first person to be charged with that.

[Andy]

You would think that gun stores would have the hair up on the back of their neck, too, especially in those states. Because I think that there is. If there is a connection or the ability for a law enforcement organization if they reasonably think. Because there's another aspect of this too. Not all gun stores are owned by people who follow the law. You know, if I was a cartel thinking, you know what, let's play the long game. Let's find some citizens who don't mind being backed.

[Katerina]

And there's a lot of them.

[Andy]

Yeah. And we'll fund this gun store. And, you know, on Thursdays, Billy Bob comes in and buys whatever he wants and he fills out all the paperwork appropriately and Nobody asks questions 100%. Yeah. So they're doing it behind the scenes if they could. You know, cracking down on the gun stores themselves, I think will help as well.

[Katerina]

Right. And that's certainly already happening because even that family from Utah that just got charged with the FTO stuff for buying stolen crude oil from the cartels from cjng.

[Andy]

What, in Utah?

[Katerina]

But, well, they. Their port, they were taking it into Brownsville. So they. They had a. They have an independent oil refinery in Brownsville, and they were buying stolen crude oil from Mexico from the cjng.

[Andy]

Oh, God.

[Katerina]

Holding it. I have actually. I did it for an episode. I went to the actual place where it was shut down.

[Andy]

Really?

[Katerina]

Yeah. And I showed where they were storing it, how it was getting in, and it was obviously like a ghostland when I got there. It was really funny, too, because, see, I get into these sort of nefarious locations, and when I went there, it's in the middle of fucking nowhere, first of all, obviously. And the map doesn't give you, like, an exact location when you're putting this in. So we're driving up, and I made a friend of mine from Brownsville take me. And he goes, okay, this is where it's supposed to be. But we pull up to this place, and operations are going on, and it's like a. It looks like an agriculture refinery. Like sources for farmers. And so I'm like, I'm just gonna go ask. Like, I walk into the office, and I'm like, hey, I'm Canadian, and I love visiting industrial plants. Can you tell? Can you give me a tour? And the guy's like, what the fuck? Sure. So as we walk outside. So I go, so, what do you guys refine here? What do you do? He's like, well, mostly, you know, like, stuff for farmers, seeds, blah, blah. I'm like, no, crude oil. He looks at me, he goes, mm, you're one block away from it. He goes, I know what you're looking for. Yeah, you can head over to Arroyo. It's right down there. Like, thank you so much. He bursts out laughing. He was super kind about it. Cause he obviously, he probably knows bullshitting from the get. Because who the fuck has a hyper fixation on industrial plants?

[Andy]

Nobody.

[Katerina]

I mean, there might be some.

[Andy]

A good opener for sure. I mean, you got what you wanted, so it worked.

[Katerina]

And so I headed on over there. And, yeah, there. Operations were completely shut down. But this family is a man. I'm pretty sure his two sons, or one son and the wife, they're from Utah. Full citizens, American as fuck. Were buying stolen crude oil disguised as waste oil.

[Andy]

They were just trucking it up there?

[Katerina]

Yep. Huh.

[Andy]

Wow. And an inefficient system.

[Katerina]

Why? It's very lucrative.

[Andy]

I guess it's lucrative, but it's after humans.

[Katerina]

No, after human smuggling and drug trafficking. It's their most lucrative. Yeah.

[Andy]

Oil.

[Katerina]

Yep. Crude oil. They make over $3 billion a year in it.

[Andy]

I stand corrected.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

How does one get involved in this? I'm always looking for entrepreneurial adventures.

[Katerina]

Shut up. This was, like, one time on a podcast, Someone was like, how do you make fentanyl? I'm like, all right, here are the ingredients and this is how you can order it.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And then he was like, I'm gonna have to cut that whole section out because we got demonetized. We can't talk about this.

[Andy]

The algorithm is gonna grab that for sure.

[Katerina]

They're not gonna like that. But it's fairly simple. And it's one of the most lucrative operations with the cartels. And in order for it to be lucrative, there has to be American citizen involvement in it. That are independent oil refineries, smaller oil refineries, that are buying this crude oil that's being disguised as waste oil they are very obviously knowingly buying.

[Andy]

I was gonna ask, what are the odds that they didn't understand what they were buying?

[Katerina]

Fuckin 0.1% fair. I mean, especially if this is your industry. Right? Like if someone came and tried to sell me crude oil, what the fuck would I know? Well, actually, at this point, probably a lot. But if someone's going to someone who owns and runs an oil refinery and is like, buddy, I got this great price from you and it's coming straight up from Mexico, you're just gonna have to accept that it's says it's waste oil. It's not waste oil.

[Andy]

We don't worry about that part.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And another thing too is a lot, at one point in time, like a lot was getting across. I think this is actually what happened to this family. I hope I'm not incorrected. But so typically what they'll do is they will put a layer of waste oil in this crude oil or like soot or whatever. And so the viscosity of these liquids, like one is heavier than the other. So it will sit. So the shit oil is at the bottom. Right. And the good raw oil is at the top. So usually when these port authorities or customs are checking, they unscrew it and then the shit will come out. But then it was one authority who said, I'm gonna do a stick test, went on top of the vessel and did this, and it came out raw crude oil. And they were like, this is full of fucking crude oil.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And so, yeah, you need Americans who are looking for that payday in order for most of these cartel operations to even be as lucrative as they are.

[Andy]

And you know how that American backed business would hide in plain sight. They would be the most vocal person talking about how the cartels need to.

[Katerina]

Be cracked down 100%. Yes, I am a huge proponent of this. I think so many people who are like, send in the special forces, just fuck Em up, you know, they're like, in their pockets.

[Andy]

Hmm. I don't know. There's far too many of those people.

[Katerina]

No, but a lot of the ones who are.

[Andy]

That's how you would hide in plain sight. It's interesting. I mean, I honestly had no idea about the crude. But if you wanna underestimate the cartel, think, Just think. They only do drugs and human trafficking. They are. I've done enough episodes now with people about the cartels that they are infiltrated into every level of business in Mexico. Call centers, timeshare scams, agriculture. Agriculture. It's just controlling avocado area or taxing the stuff on the way. Their fingers are fine.

[Katerina]

WI fi. Yeah, Everything. The banks, so.

[Andy]

And, you know, people ask me all the time as if I'm gonna have an answer. You know, how do you get rid of the cartels?

[Katerina]

Oh, my God. People always ask me that too, and it's fucking annoying.

[Andy]

The answer is, I don't think you can. There's so. The roots of that tree are so intermingled between legitimate business and illegitimate business. I don't think you could actually extract it.

[Katerina]

I think there's ways that you can weaken certain operations. But to completely get rid of it, it's just not possible. If it was possible, someone would be doing that.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And what we do see is just the implementation of the same thing. Since Felipe Calderon, one of the Mexican presidents. It's just kingpin strategy. And CIA jointly with us is like, all right, let's tackle this cartel. But then, boom, you have, like, a bigger batter. You know, it's a hydra. Why would you want that? Why do you want the devil you don't know versus the one that you do versus this controlled shadow government that. Because they don't have to fight for territory, because they're not fighting amongst themselves. Innocent lives are spared. But I also know that for Americans, and I get these comments a lot. It's like, well, we don't care what's happening down there. We just need to end these cartels. And if there's some collateral, so be it. I don't have that way of thinking.

[Andy]

That is a gross misunderstanding of how the cartels exist in that country.

[Katerina]

And I think a lot of people who do have that mindset have not seen it firsthand.

[Andy]

Well, maybe on Instagram or X, but yes. They haven't traveled.

[Katerina]

Nobody in real life.

[Andy]

Oh, no. I mean, you're one of. Probably. This is what you do for a living. Outside of the people who do what you do. Almost nobody has.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Especially in the United States, Mexico. Different story because you might live in. Among. Around you.

[Katerina]

Oh, they see it all the time.

[Andy]

Yeah. To people. My old job was very weird, and I was exposed to violence directly and indirectly that almost nobody on earth will ever see, which is a fantastic thing. Yeah, but how do you describe that to somebody who has never. You know, I think the stats are. Michael, look, look up this. I think the stats are about 10% of Americans actually have passports.

[Katerina]

I know. My cinnamon just got her passport. She's never left. Kalispell, Montana.

[Andy]

Yes. Is an Uber driver, as we were discussing. That is a heavily stripper oriented name. She's not. She is not.

[Katerina]

She was so nice to. She does not seem like her name. Sorry. Okay. This is so stupid.

[Andy]

About 5% of people who have passports actually use them, though. So the number of people who actually travel abroad is incredibly low. How do you explain to somebody who grew up in a. Like, we'll use Kalispell, where we're at. Where violence is possible, but not the level of violence that occurs.

[Katerina]

You don't have headless bodies hanging from the overpass here, man.

[Andy]

So how could you convince them that that is real? And to me, not that it is an excuse or a justification for their comment of like, we'll just send. Send in the special forces. They just don't understand.

[Katerina]

It's just ignorance. And also, when you're seeing stuff on social media or on the tv, it is nothing like seeing it in real life.

[Andy]

Oh, for sure.

[Katerina]

At all.

[Andy]

What'd you find on the passports, Michael? It's actually like 45% of people that have passports. Okay. What percentage of people who have passports use them? Yeah, that's what I'm trying to look up right now. Michael's used his passport one time.

[Katerina]

Are you serious?

[Andy]

Twice now.

[Katerina]

Wow.

[Andy]

He went to. He is younger than you. He's 23. Not true. He has gone to. Where'd you went to? Ireland, Ireland, uk, Italy, Greece. Talked to zero women. That's also not true. Exactly. That is exactly what I asked.

[Katerina]

Wait, how old are you and how many women have you spoken to in your life? Because Annie's making it seem like you're a young incel.

[Andy]

You're welcome. Yeah. Answer these questions directly. Don't try to beat around the bush. I will. I'm 25. I've spoken to numerous women.

[Katerina]

Oh, he's a dog. People.

[Andy]

Dog. D W G Dog. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? It's good.

[Katerina]

It's bad.

[Andy]

Yeah. I'm trying to help him. I can Help myself. He went to. He went to Rome and took pictures of orphan dogs. And I like. Did you go and talk to any young cool dog? Yeah.

[Katerina]

Oh, my God.

[Andy]

Did you talk to any young woman? He goes, nah.

[Katerina]

Have you ever seen a murdered dead body?

[Andy]

No. So, first off, Michael's very fragile.

[Katerina]

Okay. What is?

[Andy]

Emotionally. Physically. This is just how he is. Don't be alarmed.

[Katerina]

I did this on Julian Dorie's podcast, and people were like, this bitch is a bully, but you're gonna get away with it. Poor guy can't even get on camera to defend himself.

[Andy]

No, no, he has a camera pointed at him.

[Katerina]

Okay, good.

[Andy]

Yeah, they can see me.

[Katerina]

Okay, good.

[Andy]

Yeah, unfortunately.

[Katerina]

You guys want to see a fight? Let's start taking bed. That's right. Now.

[Andy]

Oh, he. He does. I just got destroyed, actually. He tried to tackle me and take me down. I just shoved his head into.

[Katerina]

Good night.

[Andy]

Yeah. But he, like. I put up a pretty good fight, you know, he's fragile on the inside and outside.

[Katerina]

I have big beef with fragile men.

[Andy]

A dead body. I feel like he would lay down and just die next to it.

[Katerina]

Send him to psychosis.

[Andy]

He would just lay down and just die. He'd give up.

[Katerina]

Well, you know what? It's interesting because I think that also upbringing plays a role in this, because people ask me all the time about how do I see the murdered stuff? And I'm exposed to a lot of extreme violence. That's not normal. And it does affect me. Like, I have the craziest nightmares. Like, very extreme, actually. After Shawn Ryan, because there was such an influx of attention, I started getting some crazy messages. And sometimes it's hard to decipher what is a credible threat and what is not. And I had a dream that someone was trying. I was in Mexico, and someone was trying to take my phone from me, and I said no. So instead, they took me and they chopped off my breasts, and I was bleeding out, and I woke up like, I couldn't breathe. Yeah, that's how bad it gets. Right? And you're. Because I'm seeing violence like that.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And constantly. And so I'm seeing that irl, like, in. I'm seeing that in real life, but also I'm constantly being sent content that shows this completely unfiltered. And because I've seen it to an extent in real life, then it changes the way you see stuff online because you know it is real, and you can literally, like, see it as if it is real. It's not anymore. Like watching a movie, because I'm no longer far removed from this type of content. But I have to say, I think that the way you are brought up and experiences that you see in your life also kind of shape the way you interpret and process these types of things. Because my girlfriends tell me all the time, they're like, how the fuck do you do this job? And how do you see this stuff? But you're normal. And it's like. Because I compartmentalize. Because actually someone asked me, like, when was. What was the first dead body that you see? And I'm like, my mom. Like, I watched my mom die and I saw her dead body, and I was 4 years old. So you see that something changes, right?

[Andy]

I don't know. I'm not an expert in how the brain works on this stuff, at least.

[Katerina]

In a personal way. And from a lot of people that I've talked to who have firsthand seen this extreme violence, you start to compartmentalize death, and then as a result, within itself, violence a little bit differently. And so in Mexico, people are exposed to extreme violence on a daily basis. People are driving to school, their kids to school, and there are headless bodies with their pants pulled down, hanging from bridges. There's dead bodies scattered across the side of the highways. And not only is it just like a murdered body, like a hit was taken out, it's like their head is left in a pizza box to send a message to a faction of the cartel. There is a. A note, a big banner that has a handwritten message on it threatening someone else. And so it's so deliberate and it's so theatrical and so violent that for a lot of people, it actually is rewiring their brains. Especially if you're seeing this from a young age onwards, it becomes normalized. You become desensitized. And even though these are not textbook, like, the people seeing this are not dying from this violence. In a way, I still refer to them as collateral victims because they are facing psychological consequences of being exposed to so much violence.

[Andy]

That's fair.

[Katerina]

And it's really sad. And I'm seeing all the time when there's these broad daylight shootouts, particularly in Sinaloa right now because of the infighting, kids getting out of school and running for their lives and, like, some random stranger opening the door for them to their house and being like, just get in and hide. And that's not normal. And the reason why those people are facing that is because there is no centralized shadow government in that region right now. And so you speak to some people in Sinaloa, who will say, fuck, I wish they just never grabbed the kingpin like we were. Fine. The drugs will continue to exist, the human trafficking will continue to happen. The only thing that this changes is who's in charge and the whole this long ass violent process that it takes for the new guy to be put in. In charge.

[Andy]

Yeah. How often do you have nightmares?

[Katerina]

Like every time I go to sleep. Even during naps, Even when I'm not in rem, believe it or not.

[Andy]

Does that concern you?

[Katerina]

Yeah. I was actually told that I have like pre, like the pre symptoms of ptsd. But I always thought that I am too strong for that. This is so weird. I never talk about this publicly. This is. These are like conversations at home. But I've always been a proponent that it's like about the story because like, I'm not the victim here. I chose to be here and see these things and tell these stories. So I don't want people to feel bad for me because this is like I'm in control of this. I'd rather people feel bad for like the women who are searching for their missing children and finding all of these skeletal remains at extermination camps across Mexico and they have absolutely no one on their side helping them find justice. That's way worse. I would take a nightmare over that.

[Andy]

It is way worse. But you can't go into a pig pen usually without getting mud on you.

[Katerina]

Right?

[Andy]

So there are, you know, you're not necessarily getting tackled by a boar and driven into the mud, but the stuff that sticks to you still sticks.

[Katerina]

Yeah, for sure. But that's the nature of this job.

[Andy]

And I. I know a lot of men from my old job who took that same tact and ended up with a gun in their mouth. What does the nature of the job have to do with anything?

[Katerina]

Right. That was a crazy statement, Andy.

[Andy]

It's a true story. I lost count.

[Katerina]

Yeah, it gave me goosebumps.

[Andy]

A job is a job. Do you think about yourself in terms of your job or do you find yourself define yourself outside of what you do for a living?

[Katerina]

I define myself outside of what I do for a living. But to me, this doesn't feel like a job. I'm so passionate about it that even if it made me $0, I would still do it.

[Andy]

Sounds like a lot of the guys I used to work with, Kait.

[Katerina]

I'm not going to kill myself.

[Andy]

That's what they said too. You know what's interesting?

[Katerina]

Sorry. This is me laughing is not making a light of this. It's how People deal with dark stuff.

[Andy]

Okay, I get it. No, it's. I don't take it negatively at all. The. I have a singular example of the guy who was probably the most influential in my career in the military. He was. If I was to have to write out, if somebody said, you have a writing assignment and you have to describe the characteristics, the capabilities, the Persona, the attitude of the perfect seal, I would have pointed to this person and I would have. It would have been very easy because his name was Dave. I would have sat there and been like, okay, let me just write about what Dave is like. He was the standard by every stretch of the imagination. I never thought in a million years he would kill himself. And he did. The guy who I thought was the consummate ultimate professional, the person who would never need to ask for help.

[Katerina]

Right.

[Andy]

Because he was so good at his job.

[Katerina]

It's the high achieving people too, typically. And it's. It was like jarring when you said that too, because my grandfather shot himself. And also like high achieving person who's.

[Andy]

Very strong, oftentimes high achievers are the most unlikely to ask for help 100%.

[Katerina]

I, I rarely ever do because I'm like, I can figure that shit out. But because of that, I have a very different perception on suicide, which is what my grandmother would always tell me. This is also very Eastern European shit to say. She'd be like, why kill yourself? You're going to die anyways. Not worth it. I think I should be able to say my husband, stupid.

[Andy]

I think I actually saw that on a fortune cookie one time.

[Katerina]

You know, you did not fucking turn up to a Chinese restaurant.

[Andy]

You don't know that. You have no proof that that didn't happen. Don't kill yourself with some General Tao's chicken, you know, don't. Why kill yourself? You're going to die anyway.

[Katerina]

That's a fortune cookie. You report. That's crazy, but it's actually really deep. Right?

[Andy]

Here's how, here's how dark my mind is. I'm already thinking, would it be possible to make a batch of fortune cookies that said things like that and then somehow get them into the supplies of a Chinese food restaurant without them knowing, and then somehow sit there and film the reaction of somebody who's just finishing a killer meal? They crack that open and just watch it like, what?

[Katerina]

What the fuck?

[Andy]

To me, that's great content.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

I don't know what that says about me, but that's where my mind is.

[Katerina]

Probably a little bit.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

But it's okay. We all are.

[Andy]

So here's what I tell people about war. If you touch war, it touches you back.

[Katerina]

Yes.

[Andy]

It leaves your fingerprint, what you're seeing and what you're exposed to. And I'm not a therapist by any.

[Katerina]

Stretch, so stop acting like one.

[Andy]

I'm not acting like one. I'm a few laps around the sun ahead of you. And unfortunately, I have legitimately lost count of how many of my friends have killed themselves. And there are some compounding factors with that. One very serious one that isn't talked about that often is substance abuse. A lot of these men had issues with alcohol, like. Like full stop. That there's ways that you could try to flirt around that. And they had substance abuse like they were an alcoholic.

[Katerina]

Right.

[Andy]

Like, let's just cut to the brass tacks here for a second. So there's that repeated exposure. There was also a lot of head trauma. Tbis. Whether it's concussive blast or shooting rockets, whatever it may be, all that stuff ties into itself. But if you're in and around that stuff, it will leave a fingerprint on you. I don't think it's bad that you're having nightmares every once in a while. I have really weird dreams as well. What I have tried to do is I don't grab onto the dream. I just try to let it work its way through me. And again, I'm not an expert on what's going on between the ears, but earlier in my life, I think I would try to grab onto it a little bit and deep, like, why am I having this dream? What is going on? What is this trying to tell me?

[Katerina]

I don't do that.

[Andy]

I. Well, then you're already a step ahead of me on that.

[Katerina]

But I had a therapist tell me that I should be doing that, and I was like, fuck, no. So I ghosted her.

[Andy]

Yeah. No. I mean, all occupations are filled with human beings. So there is a bell curve to human beings.

[Katerina]

Yeah. Unfortunately, I think it's.

[Andy]

If you're not grabbing onto it and letting it go, I think that's a great thing. All I'm trying to say is just keep an eye on it.

[Katerina]

For sure.

[Andy]

Keep an eye on it.

[Katerina]

And I do.

[Andy]

What you are exposed to is abnormal.

[Katerina]

Yes. But this. The matter and the nature of this is so important. And I just want to make sure that.

[Andy]

Is it worth your life?

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Is it worth you finding yourself at a place where you may take your own life?

[Katerina]

I think it's worth my life. I honestly think that this is. There's Nothing else that I would rather do. And I. I want to give people who feel like they're voiceless a voice. And I try to reflect that in my reporting. Because even though as of late, too, I've been reporting a lot on the sort of geopolitical and logistics stuff and, you know, whatever, it's not as humanized. I still always try to incorporate that aspect because it is the most important thing. And real reporting and human stories is what got. Got me into this in the first place. And it will always be what matters most. Because I think that when people lack. In order to fully understand a story and the news, you have to understand and have some level of compassion for the people most affected by that news story, because that's what makes the story a news story. Right. There's like six different news determinants, which it's like proximity, prominence, et cetera. Like, it goes on. What makes news news. To me, the most important one is the human toll, which is why we are covering fentanyl. It's not because, oh, it's just this bad chemical. It's because it has taken and destroyed hundreds of thousands, if not almost in the millions of lives. Right.

[Andy]

I think we're into the millions at this point.

[Katerina]

Yeah, 100%. And so. And even if it's not fully taking their lives, it is taking their livelihoods from them. And in the same breath, it's ruining the livelihoods of the people living in Mexico, living in the areas that the very people supplying this are running. And in order for us to be like, okay, this is why there is. There are these border crackdowns, or this is why we need to have this crackdown, or how do we combat the cartels? Why? What is the root of that fucking story? It's because people are dying and people's lives are being ruined. And so if that means, hey, Katerina, you might die getting that out there, okay, well, people are already fucking dying anyways. That's just part of it.

[Andy]

I'm definitely not trying to tell you to live your life. That's not who I am. So don't take it like that. I'm just trying to. Yeah, I'm trying to give you a word of caution. And the last thing I'll say on it is this. In watching some of my friends, the escalation in the impact is not linear. Meaning people will tell themselves, well, okay, I had a little bit of exposure and it gave me a little bit of this. So as long as I do it in incremental chunks and they're small. The increase in the impact on me will also be small. That hasn't been my experience. It's. Nobody knows where that point is. Where your cup spills over.

[Katerina]

Yeah. You don't know your breaking point.

[Andy]

You don't. And then when it gets to that point, it can get wild. It's too far. Just take care of yourself is all I'm saying.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

If the reporting is that important, the worst thing that could happen would be for you not to be able to do that reporting anymore.

[Katerina]

Exactly.

[Andy]

And that's so take care of yourself.

[Katerina]

Yes, thank you.

[Andy]

I will. Yes. Good. Otherwise, I'll send fragile boy after you to make sure that you're taking care of yourself. If he sees you dead, he'll lie down and die with you. You won't be alone, at least.

[Katerina]

Great. I'll have a fragile man by my side who apparently has never spoken to a woman a day in his life.

[Andy]

Not true. I have actually seen him talk to a woman. Today's episode is brought to you by Element. Seen LMNT Lima Mike November Tango. Feel free to just say Element. You can interchange them back and forth depending on how much time you have. I have a Jiu Jitsu trip coming up. I actually leave tomorrow morning. I'll already be there by the time this episode comes out. One of the number one things going into my bag other than my ghee's, a packet of these. In this little packet is life saving material. 1,000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, 60 milligrams of magnesium. Where I'm going, it's not incredibly hot. So it's going to be one of these after every training session. When we're in Costa Rica, sometimes it's two or three of these a day. Given the heat, the prespir. Perspiration, Perspiration, perspiration. Just a return to baseline. Now, maybe powder isn't your cup of tea, if you will. Well, they came out with this too. This is a sparkling bubbly water. Exactly the same thing though. Sparkling electrolyte water should say it is bubbly, which I think is sparkling also. But I digress. Thousand milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium. Six hundred or sixty. I should say six, zero, not 600 milligrams of magnesium. This particular flavor is black cherry lime. These things are amazing. Throw them in the fridge. Almost every day after Jiu Jitsu that I host a podcast, I come from the st. The gym to the studio. Grab one of these Head to the coffee shop, meet the guest, they are good to go. If you value your recovery, if you value your brain working the way that you feel like it should, then I highly recommend you get into the electrolyte game. Element is for everybody. It's for those of you who are trying to work on your hydration. It's perfectly suited for athletes, people who are fasting, or those following a keto, low carb, whole food or paleo diet. Who's using this stuff, you might ask? Let me read you here. U.S. olympians, professional athletes, special forces, health experts, business leaders, and everyday moms and dads. Very average people like you, me and everybody else we see in life. Try it risk free. If you don't like your order, they're going to refund it, no questions asked. Having said that, they have a very low refund return rate. Maybe you don't know what flavor you would like. Well, I have an offer for you. Get a free 8 count sample pack of Element's most popular drink. Mix flavors with any [e-mail] ClearedHot that is drinklimamike Novembertengo.com Cleared Hot. It's the best way to test all the flavors to figure out which ones you like. Back to the show. I saw a woman ask him for a picture one time because she knew he was on the podcast. Actually, I take that back. I actually. Because it embarrasses him. I think I asked her if she wanted a picture with him. Him.

[Katerina]

Because you would do that.

[Andy]

100. He knows for a fact I've done it.

[Katerina]

Did you hate that?

[Andy]

Oh, he does. Yeah. I don't like it. And as soon as I recognized that he did hate it, I tried to do it. I shouldn't have exposed that weakness to Andy.

[Katerina]

Yeah, exploited. And he was like telling me a lot of your deep and dark secrets as we were walking in here and was like, you should take a picture with him.

[Andy]

I will. Yeah. Thanks. I'll take the picture for you guys. Yeah. He's great that way. You don't have the selfie arm in the photo. Yeah.

[Katerina]

We could do like a prom pic. Yeah.

[Andy]

The really awkward. It's a dark world that you're. That you're seeing. And again, I don't.

[Katerina]

But it's just a dark world anyways. Some people just choose not to see a lot of what's going on.

[Andy]

It's so hard to explain to people the. The level of depravity and violence that you've seen firsthand when they've never seen it.

[Katerina]

I Have struggled and people don't believe me.

[Andy]

I know.

[Katerina]

And that sometimes it actually pisses me off.

[Andy]

I try to let I see it all the time. Oh, you should go. We should just go over there and, you know, take them out or this, that, or just people in general who talk about violence casually who have no experience or exposure to it. Do you even know what you're asking for?

[Katerina]

They don't. No, they literally do not.

[Andy]

And you try to tell them that and they're like, no, man, I know. I know what it is. Have a great day. I'm out of here.

[Katerina]

Or don't.

[Andy]

Or don't. I am out of here. Yeah, it's rough, man. How do we get that in the deep, dark rabbit hole?

[Katerina]

But I think it's good to get into those deep, dark rabbit holes.

[Andy]

You have to. I have watched. God. I have. God, I wish I could go back and turn back time. The craziest thing is, with a lot of those guys, I don't know if turning back time would change anything because they were so. I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. They weren't fine. First off, we should clarify as a baseline template, men are idiots. So that's it.

[Katerina]

No shit. Thank you. I've been saying this.

[Andy]

Well, I think everybody should say it. We're not all like huge idiots.

[Katerina]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a man hater. Okay. I'm not like this.

[Andy]

Like, this is objectively talking about this species of men, Homo sapiens, on the male side. Our brain is not even fully formed until 27 ever. Science says 27. It could be art argued much later in life.

[Katerina]

Yeah, I think there's a little bit of. I think whoever conducted those research was probably a man. Yeah, but. And I'm not a man hater, okay. Because I was raised and loved and love to the most important men in my life. My father and my brother. Love. Okay, best people. But are you guys a little behind?

[Andy]

Yeah, like a lot. Yeah.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

There's a. There's a reason why the life expectancy for women is higher than men. I mean, we make bad choices. We make real bad choices.

[Katerina]

Really bad choices.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

That sometimes impact us.

[Andy]

Oh, for sure.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

It's not as fun as. It's only just impacts an individual.

[Katerina]

Shut the hell up. This topic gets me heated. Yeah. I get a lot of all these people ask me, katerina, how could you be single? And you, you just like, have this crazy job. Like. Yeah, this is why.

[Andy]

Yeah, I was going to say your job is not if I were to rack and stack the 10 most likely jobs to be directly associated with a super in air quotes. Normal relationship. What you do, the traveling. I'm assuming you're gone. It's going to be tough.

[Katerina]

It's going to be real tough. There's no home base. Actually, he was just asking me. So where do you live? I'm homeless.

[Andy]

Probably. Wherever the story takes you.

[Katerina]

It's literally wherever the story takes me. I'm always on assignment, always on the road. Which is why what happened last night happened. Because no one ever knows where I am.

[Andy]

For clarity, last night she evaded the cartels. They had a death squad that was chasing her through the airport.

[Katerina]

Don't even put that out there.

[Andy]

Well, I was gonna make a joke about it. At the end. None of that happened. I did wake up to a fantastic series of texts. Katarina may have been abducted. I went to bed. I was exhausted yesterday, for whatever reason. I went to bed a little bit early. Nothing crazy. Although my wife likes to sleep. Shame me, it was early. I went to bed at like, nine.

[Katerina]

Nine?

[Andy]

Yeah. I'm almost 50. All right.

[Katerina]

Oh, okay.

[Andy]

Like, old age is right around the corner.

[Katerina]

50 is not old.

[Andy]

I know. I just say that it is to justify an early bedtime. I like sleep. But I wake up to this series of texts, and it was so. I was telling you on the walkover. It was so awesome in the morning to read it at my own pace. Oh, sorry for the latex. Give me a call. Canarita might have gotten abducted.

[Katerina]

They thought I was cooked.

[Andy]

Cooked? Yes.

[Katerina]

Everyone thought I was cooked.

[Andy]

Then a 90 second voice message that sounded like he recorded it in the closet, whispering in the middle of the night to not wake up any family members. And essentially through this. And then a screenshot of an email from a news producer. And then basically a text. Oh, yeah, she's gonna be okay. She landed last night.

[Katerina]

But just. Yeah, for listeners.

[Andy]

So I can't read all that at once. As opposed to these coming in at.

[Katerina]

A random interval where everyone was making. Everyone panicked. I was on a flight for listener context. And in the span of when I got on my connection to when I landed, in the two hours that it took, everyone in our industry thought I was fucking dead and gone.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

Even though I am on assignment for these very people. Like, they knew I was coming here.

[Andy]

Yeah. I feel like there are ways. I just feel like there were steps in between that should have been taken. Is she. She's not answering her phone, which is common when you're flying to her head's cut off somewhere and it feels like it was a hop, skip and a jump from she's not answering her phone to her head's cut off. But yeah.

[Katerina]

But I must say, checking my phone.

[Andy]

This morning, I'm like, okay.

[Katerina]

I was flattered by the level of concern. I'm not going to lie.

[Andy]

There was some red star clusters going up. People were looking for you.

[Katerina]

People.

[Andy]

That's a good thing.

[Katerina]

They were ready to send in like special operators to get me, which felt really good.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

Even though it was a false alarm.

[Andy]

Oh, it was definitely a five bell false alarm. It was not. What are you gonna do?

[Katerina]

Let's not even email Katerina. Let's not even reach out to.

[Andy]

Oh, yeah. Did they try that something that you could have gotten on the flight?

[Katerina]

No. But also because it was only two hours, I didn't buy Internet. Cause I knew I was just gonna sleep because I was getting in late.

[Andy]

Sometimes those gaps where you can just turn your phone off or the best.

[Katerina]

That'S I need, I do that. So anytime I can, I enjoy. And I fully turn off the phone. I fucking hate the phone. I am like an anomaly in my age group because basically I live for the phone. Right. For the socials, for the emails, the work stuff. You need the phone. But it's not a form of pleasure for me at all.

[Andy]

Yeah. It's not the dopamine hit that most people are getting from it.

[Katerina]

I'm not getting any dopamine from it. It's like, like, all right, work. Holy fuck. Lock in. When I can not be on the phone, it's. It's gone.

[Andy]

How did you get on this path to doing what you do? An interest in working or reporting on the cartel is one thing.

[Katerina]

I bet.

[Andy]

I bet quite a few people have an interest in that. But actually, I mean, I've seen videos of you where you're just walking up to people at the border and having conversations with like, who the hell knows who this person is?

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And you're in. I mean, we should probably provide some clarity and context too. You are interfacing with people who are involved with these organizations. And again, like you mentioned, you do a really good job of anonymity and not revealing your sources, which I think does provide you a level of security for sure. But I mean, a lot of people may want to do that. How did you actually end up doing it?

[Katerina]

Okay, first of all, I'm very fascinated and impressed by people. I love speaking to everyone and I don't judge anyone, like at all.

[Andy]

What about like Jeffrey Dahmer. Do you judge him at all?

[Katerina]

Well, it's bad. Yeah, I mean, you know, he asylum. Yes, yes.

[Andy]

It's not good. I have a little bit of judgment.

[Katerina]

But here's the thing too. Yeah, of course you will. And especially when it's an inherently bad person or they're committing inherently bad actions. Okay. And I can judge people's actions, but judging a person is very complicated because people are very multifaceted, faceted, dynamic people. You never fully get to know someone. And typically, if you really try to get to know someone, sometimes you can kind of justify their worst mistake.

[Andy]

Oh, for sure.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Here's a tougher question. Do you think you ever really know yourself?

[Katerina]

I don't know. I'm pretty self aware bitch, if you ask me.

[Andy]

Do you ever surprise yourself though with some of the thoughts you have? Like, whoa, do you? Oh, yeah.

[Katerina]

Like what?

[Andy]

I mean, give me an example, man. I don't know if I can give a concrete one. First off, I talk to myself all the time.

[Katerina]

Oh, so do I. Yeah. I go on walks and I don't bring. Because I don't bring the phone. Right. So I go on walks and I'm like fully out loud too, talking to myself. And I'll. This sounds fucking crazy. I'll talk to the plants too. And sometimes when they move, it looks like they're listening to me.

[Andy]

Maybe they are.

[Katerina]

That sounds insane. People are gonna think that I am mentally ill.

[Andy]

I don't think so. I.

[Katerina]

It's just like. It just grounds you though. You log out and you are your own best friend.

[Andy]

I can process things better when I hear them. As opposed to just inside hearing in your head? Yeah, it's just the way that I process stuff.

[Katerina]

So what have you thought that surprised yourself?

[Andy]

I mean, I was thinking the other day if my dog would like to wear a tuxedo.

[Katerina]

That's so random. Why did that surprise you thinking about that?

[Andy]

Because he was looking. He goes out in the sun and he looks really awesome. And I was wondering whether or not I could bring him to a black tie that.

[Katerina]

But having that thought surprised you about yourself?

[Andy]

Well, I just don't know where thoughts come from, so I didn't think I was gonna have that thought. Also, it's a miniature dachshund, so they don't make tuxedos in the spot.

[Katerina]

I did see a super cute dog and I don't even like dogs like that.

[Andy]

He's amazing. He is the coolest dog ever. But I mean, where do thoughts come from? Do we have control of our thoughts? Do we have control of our dreams? How I have had the most crazy dreams. Whether it's like I'm a truck driver one day, a firefighter the next day.

[Katerina]

Those are such boy dreams.

[Andy]

Yeah, but where do they come from? And if those aren't things that you actually want to do, do you actually. Do you really know yourself? Do we really know everything about ourself?

[Katerina]

You know, it's not my thoughts that have ever surprised me, but I think I have been surprised by the way I've reacted to certain situations or, like, whether my reaction was, like, physical or emotional. That has surprised me for sure.

[Andy]

That's what I'm saying. I don't even know if it's possible to 100% know yourself. So the expectation that you could know someone else's truth. Exactly. That's what I'm getting at.

[Katerina]

No. Yeah, but.

[Andy]

But also Jeffrey Dahmer.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And like, child predators.

[Andy]

Those are my least favorite people.

[Katerina]

Same.

[Andy]

Yeah. I wish there was a slight legal carve out that would allow me to interface and participate with the punishment of those individuals.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And rapists.

[Andy]

Yep. We could put those in the bucket, too.

[Katerina]

There's. Yeah, there's some people I certainly judge, but. Okay. Yeah, like, textbook bad. But I was always interested in just talking to people and I. My grandma would make me read the newspaper out loud basically, like every day before school. Since I was in, like, one day, I started learning how to read, like, Kinder Grade one, something like that.

[Andy]

Yeah. Five or six, maybe.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And so I was always really fascinated by current affairs, current events. And I'll literally never forget when Gaddafi was captured and killed. And I remember I was in fourth grade, I think, and I showed up to school and they're like, oh, my God. I was like, oh, my God. They. Gaddafi is gone. And everyone was like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Andy]

Yeah, they're just eating paste and coloring with crayons. Yeah.

[Katerina]

It was not like. It was not something that people that age were really invested in, but I had been following the coverage of Libya, and then also I followed, like, the Arab Spring in Syria. Like, I was so interested in this. And then Anthony Bourdain got his CNN original series, Parts Unknown. I was fucking obsessed. Okay.

[Andy]

Such a good show.

[Katerina]

Amazing. And Lisa Ling, this is Life with Lisa Ling, too. So those CNN original series, they don't make them like they used to. I know that they've got some good ones now, but it's not the same. Bourdain was, like, going into regions that Were talked about, but never fully fleshed out. And he would choose individuals to speak to who could speak about the culture, subcultures, current affairs, and polarizing topics. And he never let off that he judged them, ever. And I saw that, and I was like, okay, like, I think I could. I want to do something like this.

[Andy]

He was curious.

[Katerina]

He was just curious. He wanted to know. And he didn't go in just like, what I do now. You don't go in with preconceived notions or an agenda or any expectation at all. And I try to always live like that. Like, I don't expect anything, and I'll just appreciate whatever I get. And he always did that. And so I was like, number one, I was always consuming that show, and I really wanted to do that. But one thing I felt that was really important was if I'm gonna do something like this when I grow up, Because I was, like, I think, 10 years old when I started watching that. I want to be able to speak the language of the people I'm engaging with, because I feel like so much gets lost in translation. And so I started learning Spanish and then all these other languages. And then when I got to a point where I'm working in journalism, but this isn't the journalism that I wanted. Like, I'm working in a newsroom. Don't get me wrong. Like, I really did appreciate all those previous work experience I had, and I learned a lot, but it wasn't fulfilling me the way that I had anticipated, because I wasn't doing that type of journalism. I wasn't doing that human subculture, gritty stuff where there were no bounds. You just see it, show it, talk about it, fucking publish it. That's what I wanted. I wanted people to see raw truth. And so then I was like, you know, what of my languages? Spanish is really strong. Mexico, as opposed to, like, Libya, is close to home if I need to go back to Canada. And I've been watching a lot of the border coverage for years, and I've been following the cartel stuff for years. And I had been doing that with other FTPs. It was just a matter of this kind of works out. Let me hit the ground running and go. And a lot of people don't believe me. And that's why a lot of people think I'm CIA. Cause they're like, nobody just goes and does it. Well, actually, you'd be surprised that there are some people who have big dreams and they just drop everything and go and pursue them. Okay, freaks. So I go to Mexico. And I really immerse myself in this, and that's kind of how it went. But I just nerd out about this stuff, and. And I don't only just nerd out about the content, but also, like, what come. What my job entails is, like, telling stories and talking to these people. And I have no. My fear threshold is, like, very fucked up, because it's like what you said. I see someone that looks interesting, may or may not talk, I'm gonna just go and start talking, and I go in with no judgment. So 95% of the time, the people will talk to me, me, which is great. And I love that that happens. But. Yeah.

[Andy]

When did you start paying more attention to north of the border than south? Because I do.

[Katerina]

A year ago.

[Andy]

I do want to unpack how complicated. I mean, how deeply intertwined and sophisticated are the cartel networks north of the border now?

[Katerina]

Okay, so a little over a year ago. Okay, so. So pretext. I knew about the BC bud stuff. I had been following that forever, and that, like, BC marijuana prices were on par with that of cocaine.

[Andy]

And really?

[Katerina]

Yes. During that whole boom in the illegal BC bud. And so I thought that was really shocking. And obviously that creates this sort of, like, pit of success for these people who are operating. Anyways, last year, I get in touch with a operator associate of the Sinaloa cartel, living and working in Canada. And this person starts to tell me about just how deep their operations run within the landscape of Canadian organized crime. And it just so happened. I mean, it wasn't a coincidence because I was digging for it, but I got in contact with multiple people who were working in organized. Who are working in organized crime in Canada who were saying the same stuff. So everyone and these people don't know each other, and they're even working in different gangs, but you're hearing the same narrative, hearing the same narrative over and over again. And I'm like, okay, well, fuck. How deep does this go? So I do my due diligence, which is reach out to law enforcement, reach out to officials to find out, okay, what information can you guys offer me on this? How much fentanyl do you think is being produced and trafficked by Mexican cartels In Canada, or OCGs in Canada that have some sort of financial ties with Mexican cartels, particularly Sinaloa?

[Andy]

What's an OCG?

[Katerina]

Organized crime group?

[Andy]

Gotcha.

[Katerina]

So that's what I was reaching out for. I just really wanted to know, like, logistics. Do you guys have numbers? And what do you already know? And I was Getting shut down. But I've always had bad luck with Canadian law enforcement. I used to get shut down even when I worked at a local radio station. I reached out to the police, being like, hey, there was a stabbing with these gardening shears. Like, what are we gonna do? And they would just tell me to go fuck myself, like, they didn't like me. Which is fine. At least I know how to do my job. But sorry about that. That was bad. I'm being physician.

[Andy]

It's just a personal opinion.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So I don't know if you guys have the First Amendment up there, though, but here in the US Today, you're using your First Amendment rights, where you're borrowing some first amendment rights.

[Katerina]

Thank you. That's. It feels so free. So I wasn't getting any type of response. And essentially what I was getting was Katerina. If cartels were operating directly or indirectly in Canada, we would know about it. And there's no data or active court cases to show that we have cartel infiltration here. But my job was covering the courts as a reporter for the cbc. So I knew how to access a lot of. Of court stuff that would be typically tedious to go through or to access. But I knew that I had to do this in order to do that. Due diligence, which was. Let me see if I can connect some dots. I have these active criminals telling me what's going on, giving me names. If I go to court, like, these court cases, and I'm reading through these documents and I'm talking to lawyers. Hmm. Something very nefarious is going on here. And everything started to add up really quick. And then I get invited. Invited. I get this beautiful golden ticket to go and see a fentanyl lab that's being run by associates of the cartel in Canada, in British Columbia. And that was, like, set in stone. So I reached out to police right before that to be like, any last words? Are you sure you don't want to tell me anything? And they're like, basically get wrecked. It's like, all right, you're telling me this doesn't exist? I'm going there tomorrow, and I'm gonna see it with my own eyes, which is crazy. And then you have. Yeah.

[Andy]

How sophisticated was the operation you saw?

[Katerina]

Here's the thing with these fentanyl labs. They don't need to be that sophisticated. It's not like you're not walking in. It looks like we could pull up pictures, and I have some on my sub stack. It is just, like, kind of rudimentary lab. Like what you would have seen back in the day with like the meth houses and stuff like that. It's, it follows that same.

[Andy]

So it doesn't need a very large footprint.

[Katerina]

No. And especially depending on the amount that they're making. Yeah, no it doesn't.

[Andy]

We should describe for people to get an idea how it happens or works in Mexico so we can overlay that to what you're seeing in Canada. So correct me if I'm wrong because this is what I've heard talking with other people about the cartels source chemicals largely coming from China, if not now India. Really they ladder a little bit interesting but point being the chemicals themselves not illegal. So they get a variety of chemicals, whatever the hell is required to make fentanyl, it shows up and interestingly enough maybe it's now on Indian vessels. The people I've talked to largely vessels under a Chinese flag and offloaded by military age males of apparently Chinese origin. And it hands itself off to very high level scientists, people who are working in basically clean rooms and having this stuff. And none of this is happening via cloak and dagger by the way.

[Katerina]

No, it's chemical. Chemical companies that typically have CCP ties smashing them together.

[Andy]

So they're taking the chemicals that are innocent and air quotes for those of you who are just audio only. And even though I guess, yeah in exclusion, I don't know, maybe they have another purpose but they're slammed together. Fentanyl and then it goes into the hands of the cartels and it starts making its way north. Yeah, it's a choreographed very developed infrastructure south of the border.

[Katerina]

Are you saying that same exact thing in Canada? Yes, to that level, yes. And why? Because there is a huge Chinese population in Canada, particularly in B.C. where we have the port of Vancouver where less than 1% of anything coming into the port is being checked by the port authority.

[Andy]

Are they doing the same thing as well? Well these aren't illegal chemicals. These are just, you know, this is what we're bringing in, it's used for this, that or the other and then they're. I just don't understand.

[Katerina]

I just don't think it's being clocked in the first place.

[Andy]

Yeah, I mean I guess that's possible too.

[Katerina]

And then I think people at Mexican ports are certainly paid off. So that's what made that so, you know, streamline. And then in Canada there was just no oversight. So get it all in. And then you already have the pre existing gangs and people on organized crime payroll that have contacts with, with the ccp. I mean it goes as deep as this. Okay, the preview, one of the previous mayors of Vancouver was dating a woman from China whose mother was sentenced to life in prison for like laundering money with these contractors. And it is a whole thing. So you have so much. And, and we have CESIS reports thesis is our version of the CIA in Canada CSIS report that explicitly outline CCP intervention in Canadian politics and how they play a major role in what's going on in our country. And yet we're not checking the ports, we're not cracking down on the border, we're not cracking down on organized crime. Organized criminals. And then in Mexico you have these guys that are flourishing with such high levels of, of impunity and corruption. And this is what I talk about all the time over there. You have politicians that are blatantly on the narco payroll and no one's just doing anything about it. And then the US goes in, makes this list that they have, this watch list of so called narco politicians who are part of the same party that the president of Mexico is, is the Morena party. And this is what I have actually gotten death threats from, is talking about this topic. As the leader of a country who's trying to say that you want to ensure quality of life for the people in your country, why aren't you cracking down on the people who are destroying that and allowing and defending people who are part of your party to continue to operate with no implications when they are literally being having their visas revoked by the US Sanctioned by the US for concrete evidence of working or profiting off of cartel activity?

[Andy]

What do you think would happen to her if she did try to regulate that?

[Katerina]

Oh man, probably worst case scenario type stuff.

[Andy]

I was gonna say her, her term may come to a very tragic and violent end.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And I don't wish that for anyone.

[Andy]

And so then it's, you know, I can only fathom sitting in that seat, what do you do? I don't have a good answer to that.

[Katerina]

You know what I would do if I was in her position. And I'm not saying like this is the right thing to do, but you kind of, oh, people might hate this, but this is also like fully hypothetical. Obviously. You kind of have to really ensure that there isn't any US intervention so that those shadow governments can maintain themselves, the shadow governments, as in cartels, so that there's no conflict in your country. And then you slowly kind of get rid of the politicians that are on that payroll. So you have to kind of clean up government without Actively targeting like the criminals. And there needs to be like this whole overhaul now. She would never do something of this nature. And it's also very important to keep in mind and when people. You know, when I said this on Shun Ryan, that I. That she has narco ties. Holy fuck. That went viral in Mexico hot and hard. And people were coming for me. Now why was this the most violent election in Mexican history? Why did I end up getting so many calls and messages and emails on election day in Mexico? Because I covered the Mexican election on that day. But fast forward to after I talked about that on Sean Ryan. Both of those days, numerous calls, messages, DMs, from people in Mexico being like, hey, I work for the ine, which is like the electoral body, or I was working at a polling station, etc. Like they had some involvement with the election. And let me tell you about just how bad it was and how blatant the violent intervention was during that election. And then you guys, people are calling me a fucking liar or that I'm stupid for saying that this president has narco ties. Why the fuck would it be a violent election if she didn't like, what was the agenda there? Why were candidates being murdered? A mayor was in Chilpancingo. Chilpancingo, Mexico. Was murdered less than 24 hours after he became the mayor of that town. And he was said to meet with adversaries of some cartel to try to like make peace. His head was chopped off and left on top of his car.

[Andy]

I mean, that sends a statement.

[Katerina]

Yes, but then you still have people being like, show the proof. Show the proof. The proof is in the fucking pudding.

[Andy]

Yeah. In the world that we live in, even when you show proof, sometimes it's not enough.

[Katerina]

And that's why I don't. Because I could burn myself or other people. I could literally say, you know what? Fuck it if this is gonna be my last day on earth. You know, if that's. If we talked about suicide. If I wanted to kill myself, it wouldn't be a gunshot. It'd be, look at this. But I don't do that because I value my life and self preservation and those that speak with me. But you could show someone cold hard proof and they will find a way to try and discredit it and not believe it. And then what? It was worth absolutely nothing.

[Andy]

Can you lateral your investigative abilities and start digging into this non release of the Epstein list in the US for a little bit?

[Katerina]

I would end up dead. Let's be so for real. I Actually, someone. I did a live on my substack the other day. Someone was like, why do you never report on human trafficking? And I was like, I kind of.

[Andy]

By proxy. You are. By talking about the cartels.

[Katerina]

Yeah, but I don't actually dive into human trafficking operations. I talk about drugs, I talk about violence.

[Andy]

Epstein.

[Katerina]

I'm not. Ghislaine, watch out.

[Andy]

She's in prison for apparently selling minors to nobody.

[Katerina]

Selling people to nobody.

[Andy]

So technically her conviction was selling them or trafficking them to Epstein.

[Katerina]

Oh.

[Andy]

So the narrative that we are supposed to believe, even though there is a record of people who supposedly have seen evidence that there were a thousand victims, that it was only Epstein abusing those thousand victims, let's ignore the fact that Prince Andrew, by the way, settled for what I consider to be a very large sum of money. Also, how weird is it for your entire life the word prince is in front of your name? That's awkward as hell.

[Katerina]

I hate that guy.

[Andy]

I know very little about him, but I do not like what I have heard.

[Katerina]

Did you watch his interview where he. Like, they made a movie about his interview?

[Andy]

No, I don't think I did.

[Katerina]

Oh, you need. It's like the notorious interview where Buddy just says every single wrong possible thing he could.

[Andy]

Well, here's my issue with the Epstein thing. There is no justice for the people who are abused.

[Katerina]

Yeah, that's my. I think that's everyone's issue too.

[Andy]

And we're just supposed to sit here and believe that he killed himself in prison because there was no evidence of him, like, what's going on here? And that he had. That he himself abused a thousand people and that there. That there wasn't this network that we were like, I get it. There's probably not a black book with Bob and a line drawn to somebody's name where you could go, oh, we know this person. What's going on?

[Katerina]

No, but there's names, because he kept insurance for sure.

[Andy]

And it's getting to the point where there's only really one hypothesis that makes sense about why neither party will release the information.

[Katerina]

Yeah, there's like, very high up, powerful people that are on both sides in every aspect. There's gonna be people who you would never fucking think are on that list, and that is a global tragedy.

[Andy]

Well, the list. And it's interesting because there's two aspects. I've been around enough social circles. There are people whose names I bet appear in the overall large amount of evidence that only had. It was a peripheral social interaction which might be uncomfortable to explain. Like why were you at the same party as this dude? Right.

[Katerina]

Yes. But then when you're in those upper circles, it happens.

[Andy]

So there. So there is that.

[Katerina]

It's nuanced. Correct.

[Andy]

And so those people may not enjoy their association, but it's explainable. Then there's the other, hopefully way smaller circle, and that is of the abusers. But we need to, like, we need to get this information out if you want us to have any faith and belief in our institutions of law enforcement. And it's just.

[Katerina]

I don't think we're ever gonna get that. And also, look at the best meme I ever saw. Diddy case.

[Andy]

Oh, my God. The best meme I ever saw. Yesterday it was Trump, but it was the. What was the most interesting man alive? Which beer commercial was it?

[Katerina]

Dos Equis. Right.

[Andy]

And it was. God, I'm gonna pull it up. I'm gonna find this thing. It was even when I released the Epstein list. I don't. Or something.

[Katerina]

That's so real.

[Andy]

Oh, it's so good. I have to find. Find it. It's. Can you please start record reporting on that just deeply? Yes, you can. Where is it?

[Katerina]

I don't think there's anything that I could even go off of for that.

[Andy]

I don't know, maybe you could.

[Katerina]

I mean, I don't like to do human trafficking stuff and I. I think like anything that has to do with. I don't always release Epstein files, but when I do, I don't. That's deadass.

[Andy]

I love the Internet.

[Katerina]

I feel like it is just a really shitty story generally because it's just so many young women.

[Andy]

It's horrible. And I feel like that the people who are in charge or in power literally view the rest of the population as idiots. And they're saying, yeah, just tell them no, like there's nothing there. What are they going to do about it? They're too dumb.

[Katerina]

There really isn't much you can do.

[Andy]

I agree.

[Katerina]

And that sucks that unless there's some sort of whistleblower. But if everyone's killing thems. In this case, that's quotes, right?

[Andy]

Yeah. Sometimes they shoot themselves in the back of the head. You know, it's tough twice. Well, that's even tougher.

[Katerina]

But I. I hate these types of stories where like, especially it's like young women are the victims. Because I went to an all girls high school and the number of us that had experienced some type of sexual violence by someone in a position of authority was so remarkable. And actually a year after I graduated the AP Math Teacher was charged in a sting operation for meeting up with underage girls knowingly to have sex with them. So it's literally the people you know. It's typically, like, a lot of the.

[Andy]

Stranger danger is one of the biggest. Lies, bs.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Stranger danger can be real, but it's.

[Katerina]

Not as deep as the people you know.

[Andy]

Correct. It's gonna be your uncle at a barbecue. It's gonna be.

[Katerina]

Yeah. In a place where everyone is around, and so you feel like you can't say anything, because why would this person do something like this to me if it was wrong? Right, Right. And that's why, too. Like, I have a big issue with when. When women come forward years later and people try to. People try to completely brush them off because they say, well, now you're doing it for the money in this. If you have ever been a sexual. A victim of sexual violence, especially at a young age, especially by someone who has more authority than you or just makes you feel powerless, this. It will probably take you time to not feel shame and to feel like you can just stand your ground and talk about it. And if it just so happens that that person who did it ends up becoming famous or powerful or has a platform, that would suck. Like, it actually makes me nauseous to think about that. That would just be.

[Andy]

Be like screaming into the ocean.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And then you're getting backlash as a victim.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

Talk about stepping on someone when they're down. Yeah. And so this whole case. And even when I see things like when the extermination camp story came out of Jalisco, like, where the CG cartel was allegedly, like, bringing recruits or kidnapping people and killing and torturing them or training them to be part of the cartel. In some of those pictures that were released of personal belongings that were found there, there were, like, little girls items. So there was a duffel bag. I've talked about this on podcasts before, but there was this duffel bag and has all the Disney princesses on it. And it's the same, like, the way the Disney princesses looked in the early 2000s. Like, when I was a kid and I liked the Disney princesses. And when I saw those pictures, I was like, why the fuck were there girls there? And, like, what was happening? And then that. That's where I draw the line and stop myself, because I could fucking spiral about that all day, every day, and it will do no good. It will just do me harm. I can't do the job properly because that. That depresses me. That was the start of Yeah, I like, you can't touch that stuff. The human trafficking or the extreme violence or abuse against young girls, that's a very vulnerable population, especially young girls who are coming from a very low socioeconomic background where they have no support and lower education levels. These are not girls who are going to initially speak out. They're not going to know how to defend themselves, and they don't have a support network. Me reporting on that is not gonna fucking change that. And people know that this is inherently bad. So I'm not bringing light to something that, look, this is bad because we know it is. It's just tragic.

[Andy]

Yeah. That's a polite word for it.

[Katerina]

Yeah. It's really. Yeah. I, like. I don't even know how to talk about it.

[Andy]

I just hate victims. Not having a sense of just.

[Katerina]

I agree.

[Andy]

That's what bugs me about the Epstein thing.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And I operate in a country where that is the common result.

[Andy]

No justice for victims.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Is that just a flaw of the system as you see it?

[Katerina]

No, it's. Sorry, I'm talking about Mexico. It's corruption, impunity. And a lot of the times I find people, if they don't see a perfect victim, they don't give a fuck, which is so flawed.

[Andy]

Oh, you mean if the victim isn't of importance to them or of a certain status to them or if the.

[Katerina]

Victim has done something wrong. Like, when I talked about that girl, she was, like, my age. Who was murdered on TikTok Live in Mexico.

[Andy]

She was murdered on TikTok?

[Katerina]

Yeah. Valeria Marquez was. She was on TikTok Live. She was murdered. And it was her ex boyfriend who was on operator of the cg, and she.

[Andy]

Michael, I hear you typing over there. We don't need to watch this video. No, I'm not looking. Okay. I'm just looking at the news story.

[Katerina]

It's. Honestly, it's not. It's not super gruesome. She gets shot three times and just hunches over like it was. It was. It wasn't like a boom, boom, boom type of thing. But anyways, a lot of people were like, well, this is what she gets for, like, having a guy like that. And it's like, shut the hell up. No, like, you know what? People make mistakes, young people, especially people who don't have. She. She came from a very humble background. Okay. And sometimes we've seen it. We see it as people who join gangs, whatever it is, they get involved with the wrong people, they take the wrong path, and hopefully they get support that they need they learn their lesson, they get out, they're back on track. That is not always the case. It doesn't mean that the people whose lives are ended because of that, that isn't someone that you should not feel sorry for. Like, that was double negative. But I think that there still should be a level of compassion, empathy.

[Andy]

It's tough to see the world through somebody else's shoes. It's one of the things I think.

[Katerina]

People don't do it.

[Andy]

It's one of the things I think is missing in just the velocity of information we have access to with social media. It's just emotional reactions. It's tough to take a breath and just try to view the world. Just take a step to the side.

[Katerina]

Yes.

[Andy]

You know, why would somebody make that choice? Why would somebody be in that position? And it doesn't mean you have to. I try to do that. I'm not perfect at doing it, but I at least try to understand. Because you have to. Well, understanding doesn't equate to acceptance. And that's a hurdle. I think for some people, if they feel like if they attempt to understand in some way, they'll be viewed either aligning with that or accepting whatever it is they're trying to understand. And it doesn't have to be the case.

[Katerina]

Not at all.

[Andy]

Yeah. Easier said than done.

[Katerina]

And people ask me all the time, why do people join cartels? And I will give them some reasons. And they say, I just don't understand it. You don't have to understand it.

[Andy]

How could they do. They didn't grow up in that environment.

[Katerina]

Exactly. And people's environments shape them and shape their life choices. And just because you didn't make those life choices doesn't mean that it's. The other person is wrong for doing it sometimes, you know, and desperation leads to a lot of things.

[Andy]

If one of the heads of the cartels reached out and wanted to talk, would you go talk with them?

[Katerina]

100%.

[Andy]

What would you ask him? First off? We would talk about inclusivity, of course.

[Katerina]

Shut the fuck up. Will you hire me?

[Andy]

Can we get an Excel spreadsheet? I'd really like this broken down men versus women, because we have work to do.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

What would you ask them?

[Katerina]

Well, it wouldn't be like a yes or no question.

[Andy]

I mean, if you gave you. If they gave you an hour, what would you want to talk to them about?

[Katerina]

How did you grow up? What did your childhood look like? Tell me about your parents. Like, I would really want to know. Okay. What shaped this person? What? Who Was your teenage girlfriend. Tell me about the first love. What is your biggest regret? Like, why?

[Andy]

I would be curious to hear what the biggest regret would be from a cartel boss.

[Katerina]

Yeah, me too. And I think that when we talk about these people a lot or when we. You watch, like, the shows, like the narcos or whatever, they always are showing that glamorized side of, like, the operations. But I would want to know this person, because what led to you having a $10 million bounty on your head by the FBI? And I'm not here to judge. I'm genuinely just curious.

[Andy]

Do they, from your understanding, the heads of these cartels, are they living in obscurity or are they out there enjoying their money?

[Katerina]

Obscurity. But there's. It's.

[Andy]

I guess they could do twofold.

[Katerina]

Yeah, because in order to live in obscurity, they have to have the large amount of money that they have, and they're obviously investing into their quality of life to make sure that it's. It's.

[Andy]

What are they. I mean, of course, but, you know, bougie is interesting, but let's talk about. You could have a prison with Louis Vuitton curtains. You're still in prison.

[Katerina]

Yeah, but that's not what. That's not there.

[Andy]

Point being, though, maybe they want to go to the south of France. That's.

[Katerina]

They can go.

[Andy]

Could they?

[Katerina]

I would figure, buddy, if they can take. If they can produce traffic. Produce traffic and sell and profit off of fentanyl that's killing hundreds of thousands of people. You don't think that they could somehow charter a private plane and divert law enforcement and get to these areas that they want to enjoy with the insane amount of liquid cash that they have access. Sorry not to call you buddy. That was.

[Andy]

I didn't. I didn't catch that until you said, I think they could, but it's still risky.

[Katerina]

It is risky, but these people's lives have been built on taking risks. And I think, of course, their risks are measured, especially at the, like, depending who we're talking about and what level they're at.

[Andy]

There's a difference between gambling and risking, you know, gambling. Throwing caution to the wind and just saying, let's go and let you know, risk that. Taking a look at the travel and trying to do all those things, diverting, whether they're going to have a charter two jets right under. You know what I mean? And make law enforcement work for their money. For lack of a better term, one's a calculated risk, the other one's just throwing caution to the Wind.

[Katerina]

Yeah. But it also goes with the ego thing. They have big egos. So what they're willing to do in order to enjoy or flex their muscle to themselves or the people they're around, it's very different than how you and I would perceive it. I mean, like, even great historical example is Pablo Escobar taking that infamous photo in front of the White House. Right. That's a perfect way to describe this.

[Andy]

That is a good point. How did he meet his end again?

[Katerina]

He was. I think he might have been shot by Special Forces. Yeah.

[Andy]

I think there's pretty good ties. The guy in the US or not in the US but from the US Might have been. They're supposed to be by, with and through training, equipping, and advising. I'm pretty sure a US Guy might have pulled the trigger on that one.

[Katerina]

Yeah. This is like a really deep rabbit hole that anytime I talk about this topic, people try to get into. It's like, okay, so. Oh, my God. Julian Dory asked me which of the cartel leaders are CIA. And it's like, is that a serious question?

[Andy]

I mean, how would you.

[Katerina]

I don't know. We're homies, so we joke around a lot too. Yeah. But oh, my goodness.

[Andy]

I mean, there's a world where I could see that that's a little bit more. That's a little bit more of a movie plot.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Where I could see it being realistic is that they are adversaries often, but when things align for mutual benefit, they work together. That I could see.

[Katerina]

Period.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

Yes.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And in the name of intelligence gathering and the quote, unquote, greater good or whatever.

[Andy]

The greater good for the moment.

[Katerina]

Yes.

[Andy]

Yeah. It's like when cats and dogs become friends because they have to fight a rat or whatever it is, and then as soon as the rat's gone, they go back and. Did you just spill over yourself? That's what I'm talking about.

[Katerina]

Yeah. I'm so sorry, guys. I don't care. Wet T shirt competition.

[Andy]

Easy now. Easy.

[Katerina]

This is. Yeah, sorry.

[Andy]

So what's the path forward for Canada? How long do you think? And I asked you this on the ironclad show. You know, I feel like we're so used to hearing about violence south of the U.S. border.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

It's less common hearing about it. Even though you have described more of these gangland style hits going on than I have actually have heard about. And maybe that's not because I'm not paying attention, but I feel like the move for the cartel is to stay under the radar as long as possible.

[Katerina]

To get to the border and stay in Canada. Because there isn't a crackdown on the northern border.

[Andy]

So fucking milk it as long as it's amazing. So I flew a helicopter to Calgary last weekend and we could tell when we were going over the border because it looked like a lawnmower had done a swath east and west.

[Katerina]

And actually helicopters are a main way that they're transporting the stuff.

[Andy]

No, it's, it's so highly regulated. What are you talking about?

[Katerina]

You could have made some extra money that day.

[Andy]

My wife was shocked at how we cleared customs. Well, and so there, you know, there's a lot of paperwork involved and one of the reasons I wanted to do it is I hadn't filled out all that paperwork and gone through the process with the helicopter. But we cleared customs via a phone call. Yeah, I had pre filed a manifest with CanPass, called him up, told him when we were going to be there. What airport? We landed at an fbo which is a fixed spaced operation, which for people who have never gone inside of one of those, we're talking marble and travertine countertops. And your coffee and water is over there. And do you want a bandana for the Stampede?

[Katerina]

And I'm like, oh, did you go for Stampede?

[Andy]

No. Her brother in law is a drummer in a band who happened to be playing in Calgary.

[Katerina]

Love Alberta. I lived there for a year.

[Andy]

Alberta's cool. Yeah, I learned some new terms up there. Like Keener. So it's not that big of a deal. I'm basically Canadian.

[Katerina]

Did you, did you, do you guys don't say Keener here.

[Andy]

Nobody says keener here.

[Katerina]

You know what's another one you guys never say here Toque. Oh yeah, because you could say what beanie?

[Andy]

Yeah, because that's what it is.

[Katerina]

It's a tuke toque.

[Andy]

Sounds real great.

[Katerina]

It's cuter.

[Andy]

Okay, I guess.

[Katerina]

Do you know what pinner is?

[Andy]

No.

[Katerina]

A really skinny person or mostly a guy. Have you ever heard that?

[Andy]

No. These all sound like slurs to me.

[Katerina]

No, no, it's not.

[Andy]

So if you were to look at Michael and say he's a pinner or.

[Katerina]

Like I was talking to someone the other day and they're like, oh yeah. Like no, he's super skinny. I'm like, yeah, pinner as. And they're what?

[Andy]

Do you know what a keener is, Michael? No, I've never heard that one. It's like basically like a wannabe, right?

[Katerina]

Yeah, no, it's someone who's like super keen. And wants to, like.

[Andy]

They're always there, like, pumped and fired up for the vibe.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And it's like, relax, Keener.

[Andy]

Okay. These are Canadian terms Connor teaches me. I'm learning now. The manager of the coffee shop is from Alberta, so she teaches me.

[Katerina]

No way.

[Andy]

Yeah. One of the best things about Canada is the chips. You guys have the. All dressed up.

[Katerina]

All dressed. It's all the flavors together.

[Andy]

It's so good old Dutch. Not a big deal.

[Katerina]

Yeah. But the ruffles one are better.

[Andy]

Yeah. You know, there used to be another bag up there. I don't want to name names about who ate them.

[Katerina]

That's why he's not pinner anymore.

[Andy]

He's still.

[Katerina]

He's murdering the chicks.

[Andy]

He's Pinner af. Why would you leave them there if you didn't want me to eat them? Plus, they're already open.

[Katerina]

And the coffee crisps, have you tried those? The coffee crisp chocolate bars?

[Andy]

No.

[Katerina]

Oh, my gosh. I'll send you some.

[Andy]

Okay. Yeah. What?

[Katerina]

Have you tried poutine? No, I'm not even saying that.

[Andy]

Poutine is like fries and gravy.

[Katerina]

Right. With cheese curds.

[Andy]

I have watched people eat poutine, and I'll be honest with you, it was not the most visually appetizing. It's good, though.

[Katerina]

It is.

[Andy]

If putting dog puke on French fries is good, what the hell?

[Katerina]

You just don't like gravy.

[Andy]

I'm just describing, in my eyes, when I first looked at it, that was the first thought that went through my head.

[Katerina]

Okay, well, Canada isn't the country with an obesity problem, so.

[Andy]

That's not true. I saw a bunch of what we'll call wax people at the areas around the stampede.

[Katerina]

Yeah, no, it's.

[Andy]

Yeah, yeah, no, it's. Trust me, that's a north and south of the border problem. That.

[Katerina]

But actually, I think Mexico is, like, higher than all of them. Them.

[Andy]

Really?

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And like, the stats are Right now about 60% of Americans are obese.

[Katerina]

That's so bad.

[Andy]

What's crazy is they keep moving the bar to a higher body fat percent.

[Katerina]

Because of body positivity, which is the largest scam ever.

[Andy]

If they had left.

[Katerina]

I'm going to get canceled for this.

[Andy]

If they had left it at what they considered to be obese and about.

[Katerina]

This, It'd be like 80.

[Andy]

Correct.

[Katerina]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy]

They keep moving the bar because people.

[Katerina]

Just don't understand how much food. Yeah, well, I should not be talking about this. This is not my level of expertise. This is not my area of expertise.

[Andy]

Those Are the best conversations.

[Katerina]

And I know that I would get.

[Andy]

Deeply believe in things that you don't have a lot of background in. It's totally fine. It's never gotten anyone in trouble.

[Katerina]

Yeah, that's really where we're going right now.

[Andy]

Well, what's the path forward for Canada? I mean. Yeah, we were talking about the border. That's what it was.

[Katerina]

That it was soap. And sorry, I do that. I jump around.

[Andy]

No, but so yeah, so I call can pass. And the guy said, any modifications to the manifest? I was like, nope, just me and my wife. He goes, awesome, write this number down. I did. He's like, have a great day. Does it? I could have had a duffel bag full of handguns.

[Katerina]

Yeah. It's so funny because when I filmed my dispatch episode at the border, like the open area where you literally, I'm standing on the Canadian side, but you could just like little hop over and that you're in the States, I was like, I should have brought fentanyl and walked it across and showed you guys how easy it is to traffic fentanyl or vice versa guns from the other side. Because it's that simple. It just happened though. Actually where I was at, there was a CBP vehicle and so there is some level and it's heightened from your guys side. But on the Canadian side there isn't anything. And if I were to speak from the point of view of my Canadian law enforcement sources, they'd say we need cohesive data gathering between rcmp, which is our national police force, and csis, which is our CIA and the federal government. So everyone needs to share the same data and gather the same data as much as they can and then implement a roadmap on how to allocate resources that will tackle this whole issue. None of that will ever fucking happen.

[Andy]

Well, it also starts with acknowledging that there is a problem.

[Katerina]

There's a problem. And they're not doing that because they just. No. Out of sight, out of mind. And keep in mind, we implemented a fentanyl czar following suit of the United States, which first of all was a slap in the face to me because why didn't we implement a fentanyl czar when more people were dying of fentanyl overdose deaths than Covid during the pandemic. And second of all, we haven't heard from the guy. Nothing. Zero. I've been talking about it more than buddy up there.

[Andy]

It's a good job title though. I would like to be a czar.

[Katerina]

I wanna be the fentanyl czar I.

[Andy]

Don'T wanna be the fentanyl czar. I would like another thing to be a czar of. It would be pretty awesome on a business card, right? Like, I would be like, to be a different type of czar. I don't know what type, but I'm open if people have suggestions.

[Katerina]

And I think a female tsar. It's a tsarina, right? So I would be tsarina. Katarina.

[Andy]

I'm so over my skis. Knowledge wise.

[Katerina]

Can you check that a female tsari is a tsari.

[Andy]

Katarina. Tsarina.

[Katerina]

No, it would be Tsarina. Katarina. That's so cool.

[Andy]

That is cool. Is it tsarina?

[Katerina]

Yeah, it's a tsarina.

[Andy]

What would you be the tsar of?

[Katerina]

Honestly? Same like you. Whatever.

[Andy]

I would want it to be something cool. Fentanyls are kind of.

[Katerina]

Me too. You know what? What? Guns.

[Andy]

That guns are.

[Katerina]

Zarina. Katarina of guns. Straw buying. What would you be? What do you mean? Something cool? What's cool? Because you don't need a czar for.

[Andy]

Like, dogs or something.

[Katerina]

You don't need a czar for hot dogs.

[Andy]

That's why it'd be cool. My job responsibilities would be relatively low.

[Katerina]

No. And then the whole coolness of the meaning of czar goes away. As soon as you have a czar of hot dogs.

[Andy]

Well, you got. You got to teach people. Michael eats them with no hands.

[Katerina]

Like hot dogs.

[Andy]

Like.

[Katerina]

Oh, the actual hot dogs or your dog? Because don't you have a hot dog dog? No, that's a wiener dog. Oops, sorry.

[Andy]

Kind of the same thing people do. Calm hot. It's a pretty classic Halloween costume for miniature dachshunds. Is a bun on each side.

[Katerina]

Yeah, I've seen that. It's really embarrassing. I would never be caught dead doing something like that.

[Andy]

He's pretty cute.

[Katerina]

No, I have seen. So, yeah, I would like to be Zarina. Katarina. I think that'd be really cool. And I was always obsessed, actually with Russian history, like the Romanov family. And I wanted to do coverage in Russia, but I'm on a no fly list to Russia because of covering the Ukraine, Russia war. Mostly.

[Andy]

Really?

[Katerina]

Yeah, mostly.

[Andy]

How quickly did you get yourself on the wrong side of Russia with that?

[Katerina]

It had nothing to do with the nature of my or, like, bias or anything. Cause I wasn't. It's just the fact that I was covering it. Yeah. And so, like, a lot of journalists ended up on like, like this blacklist to Russia because unless you were showing Russia positively, you were showing it negatively. Like if. If you didn't push the narrative then. You weren't pushing their narrative. Goodbye. You are anti Soviet.

[Andy]

I spent 10 days in Moscow and.

[Katerina]

It was like the best thing of your life, right?

[Andy]

It was cool. I walked around. I walked through Red Square. You can see the lines were like. This is a line where the T tank rides in the parade.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

This is the missile line. What they don't show often in the Red Square is that there's a shopping mall right on the other side. Like, super high end shopping mall, which I walked through. No, it was cool. I mean, I had never. I had never been. It was. I was there years ago. I had a bunch of time off while I was there. And it was cool just to, like, cruise around and walk around. It was. I've always wanted to go the Kremlin area, the churches with intricate. Like, man, it was pretty cool.

[Katerina]

And I love the brutalist architecture. We have that in Poland too, because it's ex Soviet Union and.

[Andy]

Yeah, it's. That's a good word for it, actually.

[Katerina]

What?

[Andy]

Brutalist.

[Katerina]

That's what it's called.

[Andy]

I know. It's a good word for it.

[Katerina]

Yeah. It matches, right?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

And it's like. It's just so fascinating to see that point in time and everything that came along with it. But even prior to that. Yeah, like, Romanov family, Russian royalty and stuff.

[Andy]

How long do you think you can report on the cartel? Not much longer, I was gonna say, before they get to the place where.

[Katerina]

They want me to shut that wall.

[Andy]

You're already getting that vibe.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And so I'm gonna. I'm trying to expand coverage. I think we're gonna do Mina, Eastern.

[Andy]

Europe after Epstein stuff.

[Katerina]

Shut up.

[Andy]

I'm just. I'm tossing you softballs. You could crush it over the. You could crush it over the center field wall. This is a layup. This is a failure of. Of everything.

[Katerina]

It really is. You are right.

[Andy]

It's ridiculous.

[Katerina]

But I'm gonna just keep covering organized crime and FTPs.

[Andy]

Okay, so what was the one you just mentioned?

[Katerina]

Mena, Middle East, North Africa.

[Andy]

Middle East, North Africa. Okay.

[Katerina]

Yeah, I've always wanted to do that. That was always part of the plan. So I want to expand even. You know, if it's. We're talking about border coverage over there, especially with what's happening right now. Like, I'd love to go and show the Iran Turkey border crossing and people trying to leave and a few other places, but I don't want to, like, mention your hat. Yeah.

[Andy]

What are your. How do you feel about traveling to those areas.

[Katerina]

I'm fascinated by it. I've. I've always wanted to go to those areas.

[Andy]

I mean, more from a risk perspective.

[Katerina]

Well, it's definitely dangerous, but I've been in.

[Andy]

It can be. It doesn't have to be.

[Katerina]

Yeah, it doesn't. But I've. I. It's like Mexico. So it can be dangerous, but there you are. So, I mean, how much.

[Andy]

How much of a thought process and planning do you put into, like, say you were gonna head over there? How much do you plan in terms of your security, as to where you would want to go, how you want to do it? Or do you get over there and you figure it out on the ground?

[Katerina]

No, I don't talk about this publicly.

[Andy]

Okay.

[Katerina]

Because I get paranoid if I ever, like, talk about this publicly in the room.

[Andy]

Not saying, describe your steps. I'm just curious if you put that kind of thought into it, or do you go. Because I've talked with both types. People go, like, I'm gonna get over there and figure it out when I get there. And then others that put a pretty robust planning cycle.

[Katerina]

I don't. It depends on the assignment, what's necessary. And then I go from there.

[Andy]

Yeah. I don't want you to talk about specifics.

[Katerina]

Cause if I say, like, yeah, no.

[Andy]

Yeah, fair enough. How does your family feel about you traveling to places like this?

[Katerina]

Well, my. My dad and my brother love when I'm home.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

But they also know that there's nothing else that I would do. And they've known that I've wanted to do this my whole entire life, so they would never stop me, and they never discourage me. They don't understand why people listen to me talk. They're like, why does this have so many views? You're annoying. Yeah.

[Andy]

Because they're viewing you as their sister and daughter, respectively, as opposed to.

[Katerina]

And they're at home, they're like, shut up.

[Andy]

You know, dad. He's like, yeah, you know, you can shut up.

[Katerina]

Yeah. But they. It's none of this. Like, a lot of people are like, how could her parents let her do this? Or she should tell her parents that she's doing this. As if, like, they don't know.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

But my dad and my brother have always known that this is. I had been talking about this, and they would never stop me. Like, it's. Even when there are threats or shit comes to a head, I'm very open with them. They. They typically know everything that's going on. And they're like, okay, how are you gonna Navigate it. Okay. What are the next steps? Like, we're very, like, sterile about it, and none of us try to get the emotions of, okay, I'm the sister and the daughter in the way. It's very much like, okay, like, let's look at this from a business perspective and a safety thing going forward. How are we gonna deal with this? Cool. Okay. Do we feel good now? So they. Yeah. If I. If I told my dad tomorrow, like, I'm going to Afghanistan, he'd be like, okay, cool. Like, have fun, be safe. That was the same thing that happened with Mexico. And we've had the conversation, and my brother absolutely hates this, but I've spoken with them of, like, if something ever happens to me, like, if I get murdered or kidnapped or I've been raped or whatever, like, worse comes to worse, you guys cannot feel guilty about it because this was my choice to be doing this, and we know the risk that runs along with this.

[Andy]

Just work easier said than done on.

[Katerina]

That, obviously, which is why my brother hates it. And my brother's like, you're stupid. Why would you even say that?

[Andy]

It's very brotherly advice.

[Katerina]

It was very brotherly. And your forehead is huge.

[Andy]

Yeah, I'm also very brotherly. Feedback. My daughter. I have a son who's turning 20 and a daughter just turned 17.

[Katerina]

So, yeah, close in age.

[Andy]

The feedback. I'll use a. A word that is not even remotely accurate to how they talk to each other. The feedback that they give each other is startling.

[Katerina]

Well, okay. It's also because they're close, but they're also young. So, like, my brother and I, I'm 24, he's 23. Soon we are. We're best friends. Like, he's my number one. We support each other, and we don't talk shit to each other.

[Andy]

These two are not best friends because.

[Katerina]

Of the age, though. My brother and I used to be like that, too. I mean, when we were teenagers. My brother, you know, teenage boys love to play video games. I took a glass of salt water, threw it on his TV and his PlayStation. It corroded it. He took a baseball bat to my knee.

[Andy]

Okay, that's really an escalation. Oh, yeah, that's a real escalation beyond a physical thing to trying to kneecap your sister.

[Katerina]

And it's funny because now when I bring it up, like, we don't fight at all. We're best friends now, honestly. Okay, but you weren't always love and respect. No, we weren't always that way. And my dad, who's A single child is like, he would freak. He'd be like, why are you guys acting like this? Like you guys are brother and sister. But now when I bring it up, he'd be like, it's. I'm like, you used to treat me like. And he's like, you were a. Back then. So he justifies it. Okay. But it's all love. So I think your kid's situation will change.

[Andy]

I'm going to tell you a story that perfect perfectly describes my middle son and daughter, both of which Michael knows. So when my daughter was born, she was the third of three children that I have with my ex wife. We brought her home and shortly after her brother's behavior, it just. He was. It's not like he was upset that she was there, but you could tell he wasn't pumped because he went from being the youngest to the middle. And one morning I walked out shortly after we brought her home from the hospital. And he's underneath the kitchen table just taking a shit on the floor.

[Katerina]

Oh, that's really bad.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

How old was he?

[Andy]

Four. Okay, well, potty trained. He was in an overhead squat holding onto the bottom of the table, mind you, my man knew how to. To use. And just a huge steaming pile of. On the kitchen floor under the table.

[Katerina]

How did you guys react?

[Andy]

Shock. Pure utter shock.

[Katerina]

What the. Did he have anything to say for himself? No, no, that was. That was on purpose.

[Andy]

That was. You brought this thing back to the house. This is what I think about that. And basically that's how it's been ever since.

[Katerina]

No. Oh my God.

[Andy]

Did I ever tell you that story, Michael?

[Katerina]

Huge.

[Andy]

No, that's Great Dane size steamer. I'm gonna bring that up next time. You should. That was his note. Like, wow. They. They're like oil and water.

[Katerina]

How do your kids feel that you talk about them like about this on the podcast?

[Andy]

Don't care.

[Katerina]

Oh, that's. You don't care.

[Andy]

Nope. I had to, with my own hands, pick that up.

[Katerina]

So I get no. Okay, good.

[Andy]

Paper towels and Clorox wipes involved and all of that. But since I had to suffer through that, I get to talk about it whenever I want to.

[Katerina]

Right?

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

I mean, you brought them into this world.

[Andy]

Yeah, but I never asked them to. Under the kitchen table. I. He was make. As I came around, he's looking at.

[Katerina]

Me dead in the eyes like, this.

[Andy]

Is what you want and why. I don't know why his hands were pushing up on the top under. It's like a table this high. Excellent. Beautiful squat, vertical Torso, spinal alignment, knees tracking over toes, and just. And just staring at me. And I just. What do you say? There's no. First off, there's no book for parenting. And if there was, I don't think that's in any of the chapters.

[Katerina]

No, they actually do say, like, kids who like shit like that or smear. It's like a sign of abuse.

[Andy]

Yeah, he was abusing us. I would like to report this abuse. Cause I was the recipient of it. And, man, they have been. They've been oil and water ever since. It's. They will have moments, and then all it takes is a comment and then stop acting like a little. You're the little bitch. And it just escalates from there. And my wife and I just sit back and I'm trying not to laugh because a portion of me, like, I can't stop it. I've asked them not to.

[Katerina]

No, you can't. It's.

[Andy]

I've used every single word that I know in the known English language to ask them to stop doing this. And it doesn't. And I just sit there with my wife. We just start laughing. We try not to laugh right away.

[Katerina]

Because what the hell is going on? But I hope they grow out of it, I mean, for their sake. Because, like, my brother and I have a beautiful relationship now, and he's my best friend. And I think they will, because it's an age thing. Also, she's 17, right?

[Andy]

Yes.

[Katerina]

Which sucks. I was a bitch at 17.

[Andy]

But, like, here's an example of some feedback, because, again, I have to live through this, so I get to share what I want to. Michael, you might appreciate this. You might have heard this story. He was providing constructive feedback on her boyfriend, a previous boyfriend, and she was saying something to him, and he just looks at her and goes, your boyfriend doesn't even have a taint. Dead hand. Serious. Of course.

[Katerina]

How do you not burst out laughing?

[Andy]

I did instantly. And my wife is palm on the head, and her response was, you don't even have a taint. And I'm just. I'm like, these are. This is what happens. That is the type of conversational feedback we have. And, yeah, I don't even know how we got on this, but, yeah, that's my life.

[Katerina]

I remember you told me, you're like, yeah, I believe that children come here.

[Andy]

To sharpen their teeth on the bones of their parents.

[Katerina]

Yes, it's what it is. And I was like, oh, my God.

[Andy]

Just wait till you have kids.

[Katerina]

I am waiting.

[Andy]

Not a bad call. Pros and Cons. I had kids in my 20s and I'm still at a place where I get to do a bunch of really cool stuff. Like my oldest turns 22 this year.

[Katerina]

No, it's great. Yeah, that's like, my dad too, had me at 27. So. Yeah, there's a sweet spot and lots of energy. Like it's good.

[Andy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's something to be said for having a little bit more life experience, a little bit more patience. It's an interesting journey. You'll recognize the viciousness of yourself and you'll think a lot more.

[Katerina]

You're like, ooh, you know what?

[Andy]

Maybe I shouldn't have said that to my dad way back in the day.

[Katerina]

Because it was a lot for them. Right.

[Andy]

And it was more than you could have possibly realized at the time. Time it might have been a flippant comment or something you didn't think about. And like, your dad's crying in the shower, so you can't tell that he's crying. Yeah.

[Katerina]

You know, it's funny because my brother and I were just talking about this the other day. My, my dad was like, in the context of kind of young dad. And after my mom died, he, he raised us by himself. And so we were kind of his best friends, but we were very young.

[Andy]

Young.

[Katerina]

So let's say, for example, a movie would come out. Blackhawk Down, Eden Lake.

[Andy]

Probably both known to be kids movies.

[Katerina]

Probably not movies that a four year old at a three year old.

[Andy]

Yeah. That is not the target audience.

[Katerina]

My brother literally brought it up the other day. He goes, do you remember how our dad was so excited to show? He was like, yeah, guys, like, sick new war movie. Let's all get it the basement and watch it together.

[Andy]

Let's get some popcorn, some beverages. Let's do this.

[Katerina]

Yes. I was like, why the fuck did he do that? My brother's like, we were his only fucking friends. And I'm like, oh, that's so true. But I couldn't sleep for weeks after watching Black Hawk Down. Maybe that's why I wanted to touch war as an adult.

[Andy]

Maybe. What do you think you'd be doing right now if say, for whatever reason, you just. It got so risky you couldn't do this type of reporting. What do you think you would do? Is there anything else that excites you the way that this type of stuff does?

[Katerina]

Well, no. Like, it would probably just be something in the same field, produce documentary. But I want to be.

[Andy]

You would be reporting in some way, shape or form.

[Katerina]

Yeah. I love Telling stories. I love getting into the nitty gritty. I mean, everyone always told me that I should get a lot of degree, but I didn't want to be sitting in an office. And every lawyer I've. Well, a lot of lawyers I met are kind of crazy.

[Andy]

Almost every lawyer I know says that the reason they're still a lawyer is to pay off their student loan debt.

[Katerina]

Oh, I don't want that.

[Andy]

And that they would probably pick a different path. It's not like you see on T. It's not Law and Order.

[Katerina]

It's not that. I know, but I. I am deeply intrigued by, like, the content of law. Like, I took a law class and I loved it and I got really good grades, but I don't know, maybe humanitarian work. Fuck it. I don't. But I'd still be going to these places. I don't know. And I don't. I think sometimes humanitarian work borders. Like, it's more self serving than it is. Yeah. And I don't fuck with that. I really don't know.

[Andy]

Which I think is okay. Okay.

[Katerina]

Because we don't need to know because I'm doing this.

[Andy]

Yeah.

[Katerina]

Maybe I'd be a podiatrist.

[Andy]

That's definitely a shift in a career.

[Katerina]

I used to love. My great grandma died when she was 105. I was 16, so I would cut her thick ass toenails for her. And I never got grossed out.

[Andy]

And this is a really weird story.

[Katerina]

I know. But maybe a podiatrist because I don't get grossed out by things that typically gross people out. So I could like, be in the medical. Medical field and you're like, kind of helping people and feeder foot health is incredibly important and a lot of people can't do it on their own. So maybe that and I find it a little satisfying.

[Andy]

Let's start looking into it.

[Katerina]

I'll burn off your plantar warts and cut your diabetic toenails.

[Andy]

Listen, people are into what they're into.

[Katerina]

Okay? It's. I'm not into. Don't. No, no. You're setting me up for failure with something like that. You know how many creeps there are on the Internet?

[Andy]

I'm not saying you're not gonna get pictures of people's feet.

[Katerina]

No. It's gonna be weird stuff. It's gonna be people asking for my feet.

[Andy]

Oh, yeah. Didn't we own a show, Michael? And we looked up feetfinder.com or something. Oh, for something. Yeah. Oh, my God. We went to an actual foot website.

[Katerina]

Yeah, I know. I Know people who do that, they make bank.

[Andy]

There were about 20 categories. Shoes. So barefoot foot, big foot, tiny feet, dirty feet, socks, running shoes, like stiletto high heels. Every imaginable and also every unimaginable kink. One of them was smelly feet, which I still don't understand how I picture, like, what goes. Is it like clearly in dog shit?

[Katerina]

I hate how the Internet has, has allowed like this portal for open perversion and people to just like sexualize everything and shamelessly be perverted. Like, I absolutely hate that.

[Andy]

And I also don't know how we're gonna get a hold of that.

[Katerina]

Well, you can't. You've opened Pandora's box and it's absolutely fucked. And I think so many people struggle with porn addiction and like, it's. I hate it. And I face. I see I'm a victim of open perversion on a daily fucking basis. Because my, you know, no matter the content that I'm talking about, I could literally be talking about people getting their heads chopped off. And I'm talking about some geopolitical analysis and people are sending me just like the most outrageous things and it's so gross, it's so heinous. And I hate seeing it. It like, if any of these freaks that are watching that send me this, like, please refrain.

[Andy]

Well, the problem is you hate seeing it. They get off on me being disgusted that it has on you.

[Katerina]

I know, I. And you know, for me it's like, hey, weird incels, whatever, get away from me. But I think about like, you know, if that was like my daughter, I don't have one, but future, if I had a daughter and she was receiving things like that, it would bother me to my core. Like, it would. It would bother me more than me getting that type of stuff.

[Andy]

Well, there's another layer to that. Even if a daughter, this hypothetical daughter, say social media still exists at the age where you would want to allow them to interface. Any person predatory in nature with any desire to be nefarious, has access to at least reaching out and trying to communicate. Yeah, gnarly.

[Katerina]

It's so fucked. And yeah, I think the Internet, like social media and a lot of what we're exposed to now, has allowed for people to be, to open and openly be perverts. And you know, on Instagram, there's a feature that allows you to see what people like, right? Like what they're double tapping on.

[Andy]

Oh, really?

[Katerina]

Yeah, like if you go on reels, it'll show you like certain people that you follow, you can click on it. You can see what they like and other people. And I have seen people I know personally like stuff that they should not even be looking at and it's nasty. I. And then this comes right after I say I don't judge people. Yeah, well, I can judge people's actions, like I said too. And, and the perversion stuff where you're kind of normalizing something that can put a lot of people in a really uncomfortable or even dangerous situation. Not good. I've never talked about this on a podcast before. Just like how I never talked about like obesity on a podcast. This is so weird.

[Andy]

Why?

[Katerina]

What is your topic?

[Andy]

I never have one.

[Katerina]

I love it.

[Andy]

No, I'm just interested in what makes you tick. That's the coolest thing about having a show. I mean, I knew broadly what I wanted to talk with you about because we have done a few shows together through ironclad. So I have an understanding of your background. But why have a topic?

[Katerina]

No, it's so much better. I love this type of free flowing conversation, especially since I. It's like going a million miles a minute so we can jump around. What would you ask a cartel leader if you came face to face with them?

[Andy]

I would ask them legitimately how they feel about what they do.

[Katerina]

Huh. See, but that question kind of comes from judgment, no?

[Andy]

Do you know how do they view their role in the greater world?

[Katerina]

Okay.

[Andy]

Are they simply satisfying a demand that is insatiable? Do they view that what they are doing shouldn't even be considered illegal? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people, I know almost nothing about them for clarity. So anything else comes out of my mouth is a total guess. But I bet some of these people have talked themselves into a place where they feel like they might be doing good because of the money that they spend in certain areas or where they try to help on all. It's funny what you can talk yourself into, into a corner, but like generally, like, well, what do you feel like about what you do? You know, what the world thinks about it generally. What are your thoughts?

[Katerina]

You know, you're pretty on par. Because when I spoke to some people in organized crime operating in a border region in Mexico, they said, well, we're just supplying what there's already a demand for. And if it's not us, who's it going to be? We're not terrorists.

[Andy]

I mean, the demand.

[Katerina]

You're pretty on par.

[Andy]

The demand thing is real.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

You know, the war on drugs. We're, we're. Michael, when was the war on Drugs declared. I just want to know how long we've been losing it. Are we at 50 years of losing this particular war on drugs? We haven't spent much on it yet, so we're going to really need to increase our spending. But 71.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

So yeah, that's 30 plus. Yeah, we're 57, 55 years at this point. Do you have a rough estimate on cost, Michael? Google that. Yeah, it's gotta be hundreds of billions of dollars.

[Katerina]

Should we bet on our guesses?

[Andy]

It's gotta be 500 plus billion.

[Katerina]

Ooh, trillion.

[Andy]

Roughly. That has cost roughly a trillion dollars.

[Katerina]

I figured I would have won that bet.

[Andy]

Basically the same number that I said, but basically. Yeah. A trillion dollars in the demand I don't think has gone down. It probably. I wonder if the ratio would have gone down. Population has drastically increased since the 70s. But has the ratio graph gives a pretty. Here we go. Male incarceration rate. Sentence person. Yeah, it's an incarceration rate. Yeah. I mean, how do you get. How do you get rid of the demand? I don't have an answer for that.

[Katerina]

No, me neither. There will always be an insatiable demand. Appetite for drugs.

[Andy]

Yeah. And it would be interesting, you know, for a cartel leader, even though they have been designated as a terrorist organization. Would I want the cartel supplying the drugs and the money going to them versus Al Qaeda. I'm gonna land on cartel. I mean, obviously both of those choices are not good, which is the reality of most choices in life. Everybody likes to present it as if there's a glowing white and good choice and a dark, deep, you know, bad choice. That hasn't been my experience in life. It's like, here's a kind of shitty choice and here's another one that's not that great. Great either. So you get to pick between the two. It's not this beautiful linear or binary world that people want to make it out.

[Katerina]

No, it's not. And that's what makes this so complicated. And like the reason for why people do drugs. It's not like you drink water because you're thirsty. So we need to have water. Right. People do drugs because some of them want to escape reality. Some of them have gotten addicted to it because they were given it after a medical procedure. Some of them just want to use it recreationally to have a good time. Some of them want to experience a awakening, whatever, like hallucinogenic or even curiosity. Or even curiosity. So the reasons that lead people to use, try or regularly use drugs is different for everyone. So how do you tackle a demand that is not just coming from one place?

[Andy]

I do not know.

[Katerina]

Right. It's very complicated.

[Andy]

And we've thrown a trillion dollars at it over, what was it, 57 years, 55 years. And I don't think we're any closer to the solution.

[Katerina]

Not even a dent. No. And if anyone's winning, it's the cartels.

[Andy]

Yeah. I mean that's a tough, that's tough to argue against. There's more of them now, it seems.

[Katerina]

Like, like there's more of them. They're more expansionist and powerful than ever before. Organized, incredible reach. They're richer than ever before. You guys are spending money on it. They're earning.

[Andy]

Yeah. What's the favorite story you ever reported on? You have one that sticks out.

[Katerina]

Like a beautiful story?

[Andy]

No, just something that you're one that is like the top of the heap. Doesn't have to be like your absolute favorite, but just one that has stuck with me, you over time.

[Katerina]

Well, I have so. Because I mostly report on negative things. When people ask me like, what's your favorite story you've reported on? I'm not like, oh, you know the time I like rode this pony and it turned into a unicorn. Because it's. I'm not covering that type of stuff. But the most impactful story I ever reported on was of the murder of a little girl, an eight year old girl in Alberta. She was murdered by her stepmom and. And her body was disposed of by the stepmom's sugar dad because she was staying with the stepmom while her father was in jail. And she was really, really cute and actually has the same name of my childhood best friend. And so when I, the way that I got into this story was this little girl was missing, but the police didn't put out that she was missing. It was her grandmother. And her grandmother said, I think the grandmother lived on the reservation. And then the little girl lived in the city with the stepmom. And she goes, we haven't seen her for a while. If anyone has any information about. A few weeks later it comes out that like, okay, everything is like scrubbed from the Internet. Something is wrong. So turns out that this little girl was being like very badly abused by her stepmom. And the stepmom smashed the little girl's head into the wall so hard that the hole led into the other room. And then the neighbor who the stepmom used to do drugs with heard the commotion, ran over, saw the little girl all bloodied on the ground and told her that she needs to, like, revive her. Cause she's gonna murder her. And so she got a bike pump and shoved it down her throat and tried to, like, do that. And then called her sugar dad to come pick her, pick up the body, wrapped it in a hockey bag and dumped it in the back of a truck on a reservation. And then they held, like, some fucking vigil for her. But I was like. And I was talking to the family. Then I went to court to try to. We have a publication ban thing. So because it's a minor. To protect the identity of the siblings, whatever, you can't report on the name. Which I thought was. Because it just seemed like this little girl who had no one that cared about her. And then she was murdered in such a brazen and awful way. And when I went to the location of her murder, the apartment building, well, I wasn't going to be let in until the groundskeeper turned out to be this Polish guy. So I'm like. In Polish, like, let me in. And he's like, I'm just gonna walk in and you can follow me. Just. I'm not gonna turn around. I'm just gonna. The door is gonna open. And I remember when I stood outside the door, and the. You know, the fingerprinting dust was all over, and I wanted to talk to some neighbors, and one of the neighbors was like, I heard that little girl screaming all the time, and I wanted to lose it. And something switched in that moment where I was like, I don't know. I just deeply have cared for this little girl. And I talked about her once before, and someone said that, well, you know, you're keeping her. Her alive. Which is the goal here. Because I, like, I really wish the story didn't end like that. And then I was going to court to cover, you know, the case of the stepmom, who's probably gonna get no time in jail.

[Andy]

Are you serious?

[Katerina]

Yeah. I don't know what the status of it is right now. Should take so fucking long in Canadian courts, but. And she was just like. When I saw this step mom in court, like, I don't know, that was an evil person. That was a bad person.

[Andy]

They exist.

[Katerina]

And I've come face to face with people who have murdered people before and, you know, done bad things.

[Andy]

But there's a difference between people who have killed and people who are evil.

[Katerina]

Yeah. And I. That was the first time I realized that.

[Andy]

Yeah. Yeah. I've encountered a few people that are legitimately evil. And you're like, whoa, you and I are not the same thing.

[Katerina]

No. Yeah. At all.

[Andy]

Yeah. You can see it. You can feel it. You can almost taste it and touch it, like, okay, yeah.

[Katerina]

We are not cut from the same fucking cloth, for sure. And I just felt so bad for this kid. I don't know how to explain it. It was weird. It was like a. It was a weird process for me during this time, too, because I was covering it, like, all day long. And then I would walk home from work. I lived in downtown, so it was just, you know, from the newsroom to my apartment. And then I would get home and, like, watch a show, like, make my dinner, whatever, have a glass of wine and go to bed. By the time I would, like, lay down in bed, I would realize that I didn't. I was on autopilot, not processing the whole walk from home to at home, like, doing all this, going to the gym. I was out. I was not even conscious of anything. And I was like, oh, my God. Because I was thinking about her the whole time. And then I'm talking to family members who are trying to raise money, but, like, they're not. It's like, tell me about this little girl so when I report on her, I can, like, tell me about her legacy. How do you want people to remember her? Oh, you know, she's just a fun, sweet girl. And it's like, give me something like, did you even love her? And I feel bad because obviously the family probably went through Trump. Of course, this is very traumatic. And if they ever listen to my stuff, they're probably gonna think I'm this big bitch, and who do I think I am? But it was just so. I don't know. It was really frustrating. I was really pissed off. I felt really bad for the kid, and I cried a lot for her. It was like. It was my first really big child murder that I could already foresee was not gonna get any justice. And when I went, it seemed like everyone was against her, or it seemed like everyone was against proper justice because the family lied to me about what the dad was in jail for. And then, like, what the fuck? What are you lying to me? I'm not a cop, and he's already in jail. And then the. When I went to try to get rid of the publication ban, that was my first time ever doing that, where I, like, had to stand up in front of the judge and be like, these are my reasons. Let's cut this out. The crown prosecutor corners me in the elevator and is like, I don't know who you think you are, but like, you're just a bitch. Like, at the. Like, just some, you know, whose dick is bigger type of thing. And I'm like, can we not understand that a little girl was violently murdered? We should all have a common goal here, which is get cold hard justice. Not. I don't know, whatever the hell that was. It was horrible. It was so bad. And I. Yeah, it was just really bad. That was the worst story. But that was the most. That was the most memorable one.

[Andy]

At least you were a voice for somebody who didn't have one.

[Katerina]

Yeah, but it's. She's dead. It's just not the same. And, you know, that's what I would think about all the time, was the way she was killed fucked me up, because I would literally, like. It's called something the therapist told me when you put yourself in their shoes. So you can, like, feel, like, this level of anxiety that some shit like that. I don't know how much I believe it, but I would think about. Of what it felt like for her to just be getting pummeled by this large woman who looks like fucking Ursula. And knowing that you're screaming for help and no one is coming. Your dad's in jail, your extended family lives far away. You've been screaming and your neighbors aren't coming. Like, What? She was 8 years old, man.

[Andy]

Well, you know what they say. You die twice. Once when you finally die, and then the second time was when the last time somebody says your name. So you're helping keeping her alive in that respect.

[Katerina]

Oh, yeah. I will never stop with that. That shit was horrible.

[Andy]

Yeah. What do you want to close out with? We've been out, like, two and a half hours.

[Katerina]

All right.

[Andy]

I want you to see some more of Montana.

[Katerina]

I want to see Montana, too.

[Andy]

Horrendous murder of a child story. I think we could maybe. What's your favorite color? I mean, let's think pink.

[Katerina]

I'm a girl.

[Andy]

What do you want to close out with? Did we not cover anything that you wanted to cover?

[Katerina]

I don't know. I've been talking so much lately.

[Andy]

Okay, fair enough. Well, we can always do it again if we forgot something.

[Katerina]

Yeah, of course we can. I'm. I want to come back to Montana so bad.

[Andy]

You should. It's. And proper dope.

[Katerina]

Because this will only have been a day and a half that I'm here.

[Andy]

That is not enough time.

[Katerina]

No. It's so nice. And everyone's so friendly.

[Andy]

Winter time, too. If you're into snow sports, love, then yeah, definitely come back in the winter. Too. Well, I'll give you the final words. What do you want people to know? Where can people find your work? That's often the best ending.

[Katerina]

Well, we've got two major platforms my substack where it's a lot of one on one interaction. So if you become a paid subscriber, it's great if you're really enthralled in this subject matter and you want to ask questions and engage in discourse with everyone. And then my Borderland Dispatches episodes, which is podcast with Ironclad. Yeah, those are the two main spots if you want to get all this content, then Instagram and Twitter, of course.

[Andy]

Are you gonna go see the Ironclad people after this?

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Have a little chat with them about calming down. Just take it easy. They're at a 10, I need them at a 2.

[Katerina]

Oh, they. They freak the fuck out for me. I've never experienced this before where people are so concerned for my well being and thinking.

[Andy]

You know who. They haven't showed any concern for you. Yes.

[Katerina]

Okay, but can we look at the different demographics graphic here?

[Andy]

I feel left out.

[Katerina]

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear you.

[Andy]

I am going to start showing up to calls 15 minutes late and not answering my text that I probably won't even get from them cuz they forgot fragile men here. He's right there.

[Katerina]

He's. It's rubbing off. Come on. This is your perfect opportunity to give it back.

[Andy]

He tries. I'm trying to teach him how. I want to sharpen him into a weapon that the world isn't ready for. What the. I like to like stab people, but I want him to be able to navigate life.

[Katerina]

I want to sharpen.

[Andy]

That's what we're working on here.

[Katerina]

This is really funny.

[Andy]

He's like a bowling ball. We have to shape into a spearhead. A little chisel at a time.

[Katerina]

You like working here?

[Andy]

You know the correct answer? I'm obligated to say yes.

[Katerina]

Yeah, I can.

[Andy]

You can answer honestly. Actually we have a few. No, it actually is probably the best y' all ever heard.

[Katerina]

Healthy banter, I think.

[Andy]

Yeah, well, we see each other all the time. Like we literally right before this were fighting each other on the jiu jitsu mats.

[Katerina]

I need to. Need to get into that.

[Andy]

I would highly recommend it. So my wife is one of the coaches at the gym. She's very competitive background. She teaches a lot of the women's self defense or just an intro to it. Yeah, the data. I mean they've gone and talked to predators and they will Tell you. What are they looking for? They're looking for somebody who doesn't look like they're confident in themselves, who is more shrunken down as opposed to standing up.

[Katerina]

They're looking for softer victims and lack of eye contact.

[Andy]

Yes. You know, eyes moving around as if you're lost or.

[Katerina]

Or.

[Andy]

I mean, you see it in nature as well, too, like. And then the predator is just locked in. Yeah, there is. It can have such an impact on your life. It's not magic by any stretch, but.

[Katerina]

There is some theory behind this.

[Andy]

There's some great theory behind it. And honestly, at a certain level of training, you should be able to hold somebody off until a higher level of care gets there. Protect yourself. Break away if you need to, hurt somebody, if you need to. It's not magic. It takes years to get to that point.

[Katerina]

Ideally, I would like to get to the point where if a predator or pervert, whatever approaches me, that I could just end them with my bare hands, even if they're triple size.

[Andy]

Steven Seagal fighting isn't real, which is what you're talking about.

[Katerina]

But I know you.

[Andy]

There is a tool that helps with that, which is not really legal where you live.

[Katerina]

Well, where I'm from, sure. Yeah.

[Andy]

If you come south of where you're.

[Katerina]

From, we're gonna stay strapped.

[Andy]

It is a tool that levels the playing field like nothing I've ever seen.

[Katerina]

I literally retweeted something the other day. It's like, why do you, as a woman, not own a gun? And it's so true. I mean, like, we could talk about this all day long. The amount of horrible, scary experiences that you, as a woman, just. It just happens.

[Andy]

Don't confuse owning a gun with knowing how to use a gun.

[Katerina]

For sure.

[Andy]

Yep.

[Katerina]

Yeah.

[Andy]

Many people do. They think that the possession of a firearm is enough. And there is the physical manipulation, how to line up the sights, knowing how to pull the trigger, how to hold it. And then there's the emotional component of being able to look at another human being and be prepared to do that. Those are both things that have to be thought through, practice, thought about, and trained as much as possible. So, yeah, I'll keep that in mind. Guns. Yeah. Don't carry one north of the border. I think you'll get in trouble.

[Katerina]

Yeah, probably.

[Andy]

But either way, Jiu jitsu is awesome.

[Katerina]

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm actually. Because we're gonna go see the ironclad people. I'm gonna go see the ironclad people. So that's part of the game. Plan.

[Andy]

None of them do Jiu Jitsu.

[Katerina]

No. Okay.

[Andy]

None of them. Zero.

[Katerina]

Hey, Ironclad. Andy hates you guys.

[Andy]

No, they. They don't care about me.

[Katerina]

Why don't they care about you?

[Andy]

I don't know. Probably because I'm an.

[Katerina]

You're looking into this too much.

[Andy]

They've never texted me asking where I am. They've never checked me on a flight and said, are you okay?

[Katerina]

I would low key prefer that. It was like, a little much like.

[Andy]

I said, I was glad that I woke up to these text messages and was able to look through them between absolute panic to essentially the lax text was. Yeah, it's all good.

[Katerina]

I know. Like, literally people telling you, hey, she's dead. Actually, disregard.

[Andy]

And I got them all at once and then just took a sip of coffee. Like, like, cool. Maybe calm down next time.

[Katerina]

Like, take it slow.

[Andy]

Yeah. All right, well, cool. Let's. Thank you for having me. Of course. Tomorrow you're going up to the mountain.

[Katerina]

Yeah. With Cinnamon.

[Andy]

With Cinnamon, who is not a stripper.

[Katerina]

She's not.

[Andy]

Take your phone or you have other cameras here too? Do you have still cameras?

[Katerina]

I have, like four cameras on me.

[Andy]

The view up there is spectacular.

[Katerina]

Okay.

[Andy]

On a clear day, you'll be able to see into glacier. Not with, like, an incredible amount of detail, but you'll be able to see the mountains as you're looking off to the east least. Great view of the valley. It should be clear tomorrow as well. So, yeah, don't skimp on taking a camera.

[Katerina]

Okay.

[Andy]

Yeah, you can hike it or you can take the chairlift.

[Katerina]

I reckon that's what she told me, and I'm not hiking it.

[Andy]

Smart woman.

[Katerina]

I am not a hiker, lady.

[Andy]

Yeah, if you were gonna hike it, hike up and ride the chairlift down. Downhill. Hiking is worse than uphill.

[Katerina]

Horrible for your knees too. Like, it has no benefits. I hate that. Especially when, like, if a guy asks you on a date, it's like a hike. I'm like, fuck, no. You do not know me. And you know what? I do not want to know you.

[Andy]

Sounds like a real keener. On that note, awesome. Thank you.

[Katerina]

Thank you.