Episode 401 - David Dahlin - Seattle Firefighters Fired for COVID Mandate

Summary

Cleared Hot: Episode 401 - David Dahlin - Seattle Firefighters Fired for COVID Mandate

Release Date: August 6, 2025

---

Introduction

In Episode 401 of Cleared Hot, host Andy Stumpf welcomes David Dahlin, a former Seattle firefighter who became a central figure in a landmark case involving the termination of firefighters due to non-compliance with COVID-19 vaccination mandates. This in-depth conversation delves into David's experiences, the challenges faced by firefighters during the pandemic, and the ensuing legal battles that have significant implications for civil rights and employment practices.

---

Background: David Dahlin's Career in Firefighting

David Dahlin, referred to as "John" in the transcript, shares his journey into the firefighting profession. Driven by a childhood passion and equipped with a background in vehicle research and design from Western Washington University, David entered the Seattle Fire Department in January 2000 after navigating a brief stint at Boeing.

Notable Quote:

John: "I never grew out of wanting to drive the big red truck when I was 5."
[00:34]

David's tenure in the Seattle Fire Department was marked by his commitment to aggressive firefighting tactics and his role as a senior driver for Ladder Company 5, one of the busiest units in the city.

---

The COVID-19 Mandate Controversy

In August 2021, Washington State Governor issued a mandate requiring all under the executive branch, including police and fire departments, to receive a COVID-19 vaccination. Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan further tightened this directive, stipulating that employees must either comply with the vaccination requirement or adhere to strict masking and regular testing protocols.

Key Points:

• Mandate Details: Employees had to receive specific COVID-19 vaccine shots by designated deadlines.
• Options for Non-Compliance: Religious and medical exemptions were offered, allowing employees to mask and undergo daily or weekly testing instead of vaccination.
• Personal Stand: David, motivated by his Christian faith and ethical concerns regarding vaccine development, opted not to receive the mandated vaccines.

Notable Quote:

John: "I'm a person of faith. I'm a Christian. And one of the things that is a hard no for me is I'm not going to accept a medication that was derived using tissue from an aborted fetus."
[69:18]

Despite submitting the necessary paperwork for a religious exemption, David and approximately 70 other firefighters were either forced to resign or were terminated by November 2021 due to non-compliance.

---

Union Dynamics and Support

The Seattle Fire Department Union, Local 27, became a battleground for differing opinions on the COVID-19 mandates. A significant majority of the union membership voted against the mandates, advocating for opposition. However, the union leadership overrode this decision, choosing to support the mandate despite the member vote.

Key Points:

• Member vs. Leadership Stance: Majority of members opposed the mandates, but leadership enforced compliance.
• Impact on Morale: This decision led to a drastic decline in morale within the department, reminiscent of the aftermath of the 1995 Pang warehouse fire tragedy.

Notable Quote:

John: "We were told that the city budget people were constantly attacking, hey, we need to civilianize the dispatch protocol."
[21:07]

---

Termination and Legal Battle: A Mass Tort Lawsuit

Following his termination, David joined forces with around 36 other firefighters to initiate a mass tort lawsuit against the City of Seattle Fire Department. This collective legal action addresses what they perceive as a severe civil rights violation—the forced compliance with vaccination mandates infringing upon their sincerely held religious beliefs.

Key Points:

• Nature of the Lawsuit: Individual lawsuits combined into a mass tort, as opposed to a class action, due to varying degrees of personal damage.
• Legal Challenges: Limited resources as major law firms avoided participation, leaving the group to rely on smaller, more agile legal teams.
• Current Status: The lawsuit includes depictions of systemic issues within the department's handling of mandates and the subsequent firings.

Notable Quote:

John: "What we're talking about is quite arguably the greatest civil rights violation in a lot of decades."
[89:00]

---

Aftermath: Transition to Contracting and Personal Resilience

After losing his firefighting career, David leveraged his extensive skills in general contracting to establish FreedomContractingServices.com. This venture allows him to provide essential services such as remodeling and repairs, compensating for the financial and professional loss experienced due to his termination.

Key Points:

• Business Establishment: Transitioning from firefighting to self-employment to sustain his family.
• Family Support: His wife manages the business’s administrative aspects, enabling David to focus on the technical and operational side.
• Continued Community Ties: Despite leaving the department, David maintains strong connections with former colleagues and remains active in the firefighting community.

Notable Quote:

John: "We've lost almost everything material. Almost everything."
[85:29]

---

Mental Health and Firefighter Wellbeing

David emphasizes the escalating issue of mental health within the firefighting profession, noting that firefighter suicide rates have surpassed deaths from cancer and heart attacks on duty. The traumatic experiences inherent to firefighting, combined with the stresses of the COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent job loss, have significantly impacted the mental well-being of many firefighters.

Key Points:

• Mental Health Struggles: Exposure to life-threatening situations and high-stress environments contribute to psychological strain.
• Stigma and Culture: A culture of bravado and reluctance to seek help exacerbates mental health issues.
• Call for Support: David advocates for increased mental health resources and destigmatization of seeking psychological assistance.

Notable Quote:

John: "There is a lot of stuff that we see that you can't unsee."
[138:46]

---

Call to Action: Supporting the Legal Fight

To sustain their legal battle against unjust termination, David and his fellow plaintiffs have established a nonprofit organization, SeattleFired.com, aimed at raising funds to cover legal expenses. They appeal to listeners for financial support, emphasizing that contributions will directly aid their fight for justice and civil rights.

Key Points:

• Nonprofit Initiative: Facilitating donations to support ongoing litigation.
• Financial Needs: Legal battles are costly, and the group operates on a "pay as we go" basis.
• Broader Impact: Success in their case could set precedents for other public employees facing similar mandates.

Notable Quote:

John: "The biggest smooth stones is financial help."
[150:56]

---

Closing Thoughts: Resilience and Future Plans

Despite the immense challenges, David remains optimistic about the future. He expresses a desire to eventually retire from firefighting and enjoy personal pursuits like traveling, while continuing to support his family's needs through his contracting business.

Notable Quote:

John: "But my wife and I, we went through the numbers, we looked at it, we said, it's. This is the damage it's gonna, but frankly, we need it to be able to simply survive."
[89:32]

David also touches upon the importance of community solidarity and the need for systemic changes to prevent such civil rights violations in the future.

---

Conclusion

Episode 401 of Cleared Hot offers a compelling narrative of resilience in the face of institutional adversity. David Dahlin's story underscores the profound personal and professional impacts of enforcing public health mandates without accommodating individual beliefs. As the legal battle unfolds, David's journey serves as a poignant reminder of the delicate balance between public safety and individual rights.

---

Supporting Resources:

• Donate to Support the Legal Fight: SeattleFired.com
• David Dahlin's Contracting Business: FreedomContractingServices.com

---

Note: This summary is based on a detailed transcript of the podcast episode and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and insights shared by David Dahlin and host Andy Stumpf.

Transcript

[John]

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, healthcare, retirement options, and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime.

[Mike]

Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com okay, I got the red smoke.

[John]

Sun runs north to south. West of the smoke, west of the smoke. Okay, copy.

[Mike]

West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[John]

Oh, wait a minute. Give it to me. I mean it.

[Mike]

You're cleared hot.

[John]

Can't be cleared hot. And what.

[Mike]

You guys are in fires, fighting fires. You're not weird, you're pro. Are you?

[John]

We're not. And they're actually very loud. It's a loud environment. The inside of building. When the fire's going, it's loud.

[Mike]

Would it actually be more dangerous, though, for you guys to have ear pro? I feel like that's just another thing that can melt to your head.

[John]

Not so much. The danger for me is you reduce your situational awareness, because if the. When you're listening to what's going on, we've got.

[Mike]

And you're using radios, too, right?

[John]

We are using radios. And as of late, a lot of people went to earpieces.

[Mike]

Double or single?

[John]

Single. A single earpiece. And it would be. You'd put it in your ear. Some of the guys paid and had, like, had them custom molded and so forth.

[Mike]

Have you ever had that done?

[John]

I have not.

[Mike]

It's an interesting experience.

[John]

I believe you.

[Mike]

Yeah. It touches your brain, I think.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

Not that that's possible, but it. They get that putty gun out, and you're sitting there like, hey, can you stop now? Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. It's just like.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

It's in there.

[John]

I believe you. And that's what holds it in there.

[Mike]

Yeah, It's a bespoke experience when they pull it out.

[John]

Okay. Yeah, bespoke. That's a. I'm gonna have to look that one up. I've heard that word, but I do not to the life of me. I. I couldn't know where. Be appropriate to use.

[Mike]

Michael, would you look up the word bespoke just to make sure I'm using it appropriately. I think it means, like, exclusive.

[John]

Okay. Oh, look at that.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah. Something made to a specific individual requirement. That is actually what that earpiece would be.

[John]

That's. That would be the. The definition of that.

[Mike]

You know, when you often hear it. Maybe that's where I saw it was with clothing yes. If you look to the right. Yeah. A bespoke suit.

[John]

Right. If you will. That's an L. So the right side's this side. Okay.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I kind of used it appropriately.

[John]

You did. I think you used it very appropriately.

[Mike]

It wouldn't be the first time that I said something. I didn't know what it meant.

[John]

No, I just. I wasn't trying to call you. I was just curious. I'm telling. I was ignorant. I had no idea.

[Mike]

No, I'm glad you said that because I thought I knew what it meant.

[John]

And you did. Turns out you did perfectly.

[Mike]

Partially. Yeah. Yeah. I figured you guys would want to hear what's going on on the radio, but it's got to be loud. Yeah. For us, a lot of times we'd use the Peltor headsets. You can pop them on and off. But I've never fought fire for a living, so I wonder. I don't know if that would work well for you guys, because they make the kind that can amplify the current or existing noise until it hits that decibel threshold, then it shuts off.

[John]

Right. Electronic Ear Pro. I mean, I. I feel like they.

[Mike]

Suck in a really hot environment because in the desert, it sucks.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Pull them out and you dump the water.

[John]

Right, Right. Yeah. For. We would. I guess the question that you'd have to ask is if you're going to wear those, where would you wear them? Underneath or. And try to put your nomex hood over it. Because when you're. When you put your face piece on, it goes. The face piece goes straight to your skin. And then you put your nomex hood on. And almost everybody I've ever seen, you put your hood on. First you peel the hood back over your head.

[Mike]

Is it with your breathing apparatus?

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

So put the face piece on with the breathing apparatus. And then you peel. Then you lift it from the behind, and you pull the hood back up and over. And part of your buddy checks is your buddies are supposed to make sure that you don't have any skin visible.

[Mike]

I would say it'd probably be attached to their helmets. That's how we ended up wearing them. It used to be you would just throw a set of peltars on, put your helmet on. You could kind of weave it through the straps that went under your chin.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Then they started making actual. And that would be a tension headache. Like, nobody's sure. Depending on if you didn't move the padding on the. Like, the ridge of your head.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You wouldn't Feel it at first, but a couple hours in, you start getting a great tension headache from that.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So then they just started actually hard pointing them to the outside of the helmet. I'd say hard pointed to the helmet would be best.

[John]

You know, I am going to catch so much crap for this from my peers, my, my former colleagues. The. I can't believe I'm going to say this. The Euro style helmets that come all the way down, I'm gonna need to.

[Mike]

See a picture of this. Is it. Would this be like a European style firefighter helmet?

[John]

Correct, correct.

[Mike]

Michael, did you even know there was two different style helmets?

[John]

The, the traditional style helmet that you're going to see? The American. I don't. Depending on how he pulls it up there. There are. Yeah. Well, it was there for a moment.

[Mike]

Yeah. We're learning.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

We don't know why. And viewers are probably like they're talking about it again. This computer whips his ass, he tries to pull it on there and then it rips it off to the side.

[John]

So one of the things that you.

[Mike]

Can do that is only completely different than the US ones you're used to 100%. So that looks like it's hard plastic all the way down to below the ear.

[John]

Yep.

[Mike]

Does that face shield go up underneath the helmet? It looks like.

[John]

I believe it does. I think that's what that image does. Now you see that's just an eye protection shield. So if you're working like where you don't need the breathing apparatus, but you do need eye prosol, you can just.

[Mike]

Pull that down, right?

[John]

You pull it down and you could.

[Mike]

Probably wear your breathing apparatus under that. With that up?

[John]

Yes, with that up. Not only can you wear the breathing apparatus the way they have it is it clicks in way faster so you don't have to take your helmet off.

[Mike]

So almost like a fighter pilot helmet.

[John]

I think it's pretty similar to my impression of how a fighter pilot helmet works. Yeah.

[Mike]

Not saying they're the same, but similar in concept.

[John]

I think that's a similar concept. Yes. The thing is, is that many, many firefighters are really stuck on tradition and they're very proud of that, regardless if it's not progress. I'm also really pro American, so I'm not one of those guys that says just cause Europe does it, it's better. But I look at that and I go, hey, one of the things that was such a big deal for us on all of those fires and emergency scenes when they do the post incident analysis was communications. Well, when you're running a chainsaw at full tilt. I don't care if that mic is. If that mic's turned all the way up in your earpiece isn't. You're not hearing it. Not enough to understand what they're saying. Yeah, but what if you had something like that? You could put speakers on the inside of the helmets. The helmet would help. Not entirely, but would help block out the outside noises. Your speakers would be amplified. And then you could have a mic inside so that you're not trying to talk through. Through.

[Mike]

The one on the right actually has exactly that as a boom mic.

[John]

It appears that way, doesn't it?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah. So. So that sort of a thing.

[Mike]

And you know, what's the argument against that?

[John]

It doesn't look cool. And I'm. I'm not. I'm not shitting you.

[Mike]

That I can't argue with that. It doesn't. It looks like a Lego firefighter.

[John]

It does. It absolutely does. But that's. When. That's the extent of the. That's the best argument I've heard anybody make to me in any kind of conversation. It doesn't look cool. It looks stupid.

[Mike]

That is a valid argument, though. I have seen people, yes, legitimately, in my old job preparing for combat operations, and they were sent back to change because they didn't match. I'm not joking.

[John]

It didn't match.

[Mike]

Yeah. Like that. Your ensemble is. It's clashing. You look like. Go change.

[John]

Oh, my heavens. Okay.

[Mike]

I mean, it's important. Rule one, look good.

[John]

Look. Look good doing it. Even if you're gonna do a shitty job, look good doing it.

[Mike]

I feel like, Michael, just for shits and gigs, in another tab, pull up an American firefighter helmet. I feel like there is a massive difference in. Also, Michael, why are the tabs so big? What have you done to make it easier to see?

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Oh, my God. Yeah, we're. Holy cow. Now just kind of flip back and forth between the two, Michael.

[John]

Right. Oof. Now, here's the funny thing. Look at the. Look at the cost difference. Holy cow.

[Mike]

Wow.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So you're saying in critical incidents, the ability to. I mean, okay, I'm not going down this path. Firefighters are going to kill us. They're going to get very upset. I mean, we could have a pretty robust discussion around one of those helmets. Might actually solve some of those problems and reduce things to talk about on the critical incident reporting 100. Yeah, maybe. Maybe there's a way we can make that look cool. I feel like you could put some Viking horns on that.

[John]

Sure. And then they snag on stuff, whatever.

[Mike]

I mean. Well, they're breakaway, obviously.

[John]

Right, right. They have to. Have to go on with Velcro, but. Yeah, I mean, you could make that look as cool as you want.

[Mike]

I bet that would be hot, though.

[John]

But you know what? The.

[Mike]

Not that fire and what you get.

[John]

The rest of the gear is plenty hot.

[Mike]

I was going to say. But I mean, you know the deal, too. If you can vent your head, it'll really help.

[John]

Well, but actually not because you need it to not vent, because you're trying to keep hotter air out and cooler air in. When you're in a room where the. Where it's so hot the water's boiling on the floor, I don't want ventilation. I've been in a room where water's boiling on the floor. It's hot.

[Mike]

I feel like that's real, real hot.

[John]

It's pretty. Yeah, that's pretty hot.

[Mike]

Is the move. When you go into a room where there's water boiling on the floors, you just immediately. 180 and go out of that room. Because that's what I would do.

[John]

Yeah, that's one move. One of the things that we. You cool the room and you cool the room by shooting as much water in it. And this is actually a reasonably new technique. That's been because people were saying, no, no, don't, because you're gonna get steam burns. And this. When I first came in 2000, it was, don't do that because, you know, you want a pencil or. Or hit the ceiling with your. With a straight stream as fast as you can. And if water doesn't come down at you, it means it's steamed. It's converted to steam that much. They're saying, yeah, don't go in there. Well, now they're going, no, you can go in there. But that's when you dump, you flood it with water to bring the temperature way down. Yeah, the first part's going to convert to steam, but then once you continue to flood it, you're going to really drive the temperature down and then it's going to create the space. I'm butchering this. There are people that instruct on this that have better nuances and understandings. See, I was the truck guy. I didn't carry the hose or push those. I went to the roof with a chainsaw or I went ahead of the hose line with search equipment, and I was looking for victims that we could grab and pull out.

[Mike]

What kind of conditions would have to be present for water to be boiling on the floor. Is that just pure heat in the room or does that mean fires underneath it?

[John]

Both. In that case, it was both.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

It's a concrete floor. We had fire underneath us and fire in the room contents.

[Mike]

That's rough. If there is no victim or thought that there may be victims in there, is the move just back out of that and cool it off?

[John]

That's. Yeah, that. That would be a one option.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

That would be one option.

[Mike]

Because seems like there's a lot of risk driving forward into that.

[John]

Correct. We call that the risk benefit analysis is you risk a lot to save a lot. You risk a little to save a little. If you've got a bunch of nuns hanging off of a balcony, you know. Yeah. You. You need to know what the limits of your equipment are. And you might push those because you understand that there's a safety margin built in. But then you better be ready to stand in front of a. Of a review panel and explain your actions if something goes wrong.

[Mike]

Keep that a little bit closer.

[John]

Yeah, sure.

[Mike]

About a fist away. It's all right.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Michael usually would remind us, but he's just over there not doing his job.

[John]

The levels look fine. You're a loud voice. It carries.

[Mike]

I don't even know what to do with you.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Okay. Yeah. Risk benefit analysis. That's fair.

[John]

Right?

[Mike]

I had heard people. And this was. I don't even remember where I heard this. There was some contention. I think it was Detroit. They had basically stopped driving into buildings. Drive as. Not like the vehicle in the building, but working for it into it. Because almost all of them were abandoned.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

And there just was no point in risking the life. So they're letting the structure burn and then people are losing their mind. Like, this is your job to stop this fire. And they were having that argument with the populace of A, this is abandoned. B.

[John]

Correct.

[Mike]

What are we going to. What do you want us to risk life and limb for?

[John]

Correct. So it's a. It's a difficult. There's another consideration in that decision making paradigm that you haven't mentioned, and that is a lot of those abandoned buildings in metropolitan areas may be occupied by homeless people.

[Mike]

So do you act as if they are until you can.

[John]

That is the. There are groups that you have different camps in it. Some advocate for. No. You treat that as an abandoned building and you surround and drown it. There are other people that say. Other camps that say no. A garbage man always expects to find garbage. So you need to go in there and confirm. I can see both And I can see both.

[Mike]

How'd you get into the fire service?

[John]

I never grew out of wanted to drive the big red truck when I was 5.

[Mike]

Did you want to wear one of those helmets when you did or if you had seen somebody wearing one of those helmets driving the big red truck, would it have changed your desires?

[John]

Probably not, because at 5 I didn't understand that. Didn't understand the nuance difference.

[Mike]

So there you go. That's an argument. Okay. That goes into the. Those helmets are better than the ones you guys have. If it's not going to change any young kids minds, you're going to be okay.

[John]

It's not going to change the young.

[Mike]

I will say the movie Backdraft would not have been as good if they were wearing those.

[John]

You're 100% correct. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

Also though, in Backdraft, I don't know anything about firefighting, but I do think you're supposed to wear more than just that coat.

[John]

You are supposed to wear more than just the coat. Yes, that is absolutely true.

[Mike]

I think he had an axe too.

[John]

He had an axe.

[Mike]

Poly cotton shirt with a coat and an axe.

[John]

I think that's, I think that's the uniform. They were working. They were.

[Mike]

What would actually happen if some dude hopped off the truck and pulled some bullshit like that and just ran into the fire in front of all of you and then ran? I mean, what would actually happen? Assuming that he lived? I feel like there would be at least a talking to.

[John]

There'd definitely be a talking to. One of the challenges is that really quickly with male bravado, and it's a male dominated profession, but it's not exclusively to male. But with bravado comes, hey, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna be extra tough. The challenge with that is when somebody, when you're, when you don't have air and when I first came in, some of the old timers were telling us about this, that when they came in, like, yeah, the old timers would go in, they'd call me a sissy for wearing the breathing apparatus because in the beginning it was optional. Yet when they were crawling on the floor and gasping for breath, I walked right past them, picked up the hose that they couldn't carry anymore and walked into the seat of the fire and put the fire out and showed them, yeah, I got to put the fire out. Nerd.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

And so really quickly, vastly superior equipment is going to expose foolishness or inferior tactics, I guess.

[Mike]

Yeah, I mean, foolishness.

[John]

That's, that's kind of A harsh word.

[Mike]

Well, in the moment when you are the cutting edge, before they had the breathing apparatus and running in, you know, fullback dive. Yeah, that wasn't foolish. It's only proven foolish when the superior technology comes out and you're like, hey, you don't have to do this anymore.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

So yeah, at some point in time they were the front leading edge of what's possible.

[John]

Sure, absolutely.

[Mike]

When did the breathing, the breathing apparatus come around for firefighters?

[John]

I don't know the exact year.

[Mike]

Can you look that up, Michael, to curiosity because before that that was, that was the only option they had.

[John]

Oh, absolutely. Now but can you imagine like a.

[Mike]

Chemical building or some shit like that?

[John]

Well, yeah, but remember that building materials and contents, like the drapes that you have the backdrop here behind you and behind me, when they were natural fibers, the smoke was very, very different than when they are petroleum based fibers.

[Mike]

That makes sense.

[John]

I mean when you see a fire that is not, that doesn't have petroleum products that's burning, it's a gray, maybe a tan, maybe a brown smoke, is.

[Mike]

The heat different too?

[John]

Oh yeah, it's way hotter. The petroleum products are way hotter. Once. Even though there might be fire retardant, once they get going, they burn way hotter.

[Mike]

Interesting. LaCour's device. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that correctly. Invented in 1863, was the first known self contained breathing apparatus and was used by the New York Fire Department. An airtight bag made of India rubber sandwiched between canvas layers. Oh my God.

[John]

I bet you that tasted really good when you were breathing through that 1945.

[Mike]

So called like, but we'll call it the mid 20th century. So they're not that. Well, not even 100 years.

[John]

No, no. And I want to say the people that some of those old timers they were talking about, you know, early 80s that they became actually, because here's the thing, you've got your early adopters and then you get widespread use. I think it was early, I want to say early 80s, don't quote me on that, but I want to say.

[Mike]

It was early 80s, probably widespread. I mean larger for widespread. Yeah, metropolitan era going to have more budget. But you like you're probably, you know, caliper where we are right now. Maybe it's 30,000 in the 80s, probably 10 to 15,000. I bet they weren't on the cutting edge of the breathing apparatus.

[John]

Yeah. And what you'll find is a lot of times the rural departments will get hand me down gear from the big city departments when they Upgrade.

[Mike]

That makes sense.

[John]

So, yeah, the, and then the volunteer departments are, unfortunately, they're below that tier. I have such a high regard for the people that do the volunteer stuff because the volunteers cover some ungodly high percentage of the, of the square miles of the, of this nation.

[Mike]

There's a lot of them up here.

[John]

Yeah, they have to be because they don't have the budget to run a fully staffed. And your firefighting tactics have to change because when you have a professional department that's fully staffed, 911 call comes in within. So within 30 seconds or so, the tones get sent out to while the, while the dispatcher decides what resources, what type of call. Okay. Boom. They hit the button, bells go off in the fire stations. The guys get on the pole, they either put on their EMS equipment or they put on their firefighting equipment. They get on the rigs and they have time standards to hit each one of these. When you're dealing with the volunteer department, they go through whatever dispatch it is and they hit, boom. Well, that doesn't turn on the lights and the bells inside the stations. That sends a page out to a bunch of guys that have to get in their pickup trucks and drive at the speed limit because they're not allowed legally to exceed the speed limit with their green light. They can park illegally. That's all they can do.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

And then they have to drive to the volunteer station. Hope to God the fire engine starts because sometimes they have to jump start it from their pickup truck. And then they have to decide, do we wait for two people or do we just go, how many more people do we wait to actually meet at the station before we start driving the vehicle to where the emergency is? And that's a judgment call.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

You get on the, you know, hey, everybody's carrying your gear. You meet us, you know, these three people are going to go get the rig. Everybody else meet us at the emergency. Okay, that's great. That's a little bit more efficient.

[Mike]

So the 911 dispatcher, are they the one that determines the resources that are allocated?

[John]

Oftentimes now, there's protocols. Different departments will have protocols. What they have to do is when they're receiving the phone call, they say, okay, what's going on? Well, my dad just tipped over in his chariot. I don't think he's breathing. Okay, that's a medical related call. And they'll ask questions of the person. Hey, what can we do to. Hey, is this an ALS call, which is advanced life support? That's your paramedics or is this a BLS call? Which is your EMT basics and which. Hey, grandma's not feeling well, she's dizzy, she's lightheaded. Okay. Probably that's unless there's other indicators that. And they might upgrade it depending as they conduct more interview on the phone.

[Mike]

But it's the dispatcher that's actually largely.

[John]

Largely.

[Mike]

I never thought about that.

[John]

And then the department will determine. Hey dispatchers. If it's a one house that's on fire, we need you to send this many of this type of unit. We'll call this a. In my old department we would call it a full response or a single alarm, but it's a full response. And that was five engines, two trucks, two battalion chiefs, a couple of medic units and aid car.

[Mike]

Okay. I guess I had never thought about when you, I mean obviously you talk to somebody when you're calling 911. I had never thought about who actually deploys the resources though it is the.

[John]

Dispatch in some capacity. It's somebody in that dispatch group. My old department, we were very fortunate that all of our dispatchers on the fireside had to be firefighters first. That's gonna help vastly. And the challenge with that is that it costs more money. And so the city budget people are always, they were always seemed like they were. We were told that the city budget people were constantly attacking, hey, we need to civilianize the dispatch protocol. We are the dispatch center. And we're like no. Because we get way better information. Because the people that are in there have done the job.

[Mike]

Yeah. They know what to ask too.

[John]

They have a better. They get coached what to ask. And you can coach somebody, a civilian, what to ask. But there's also, there's a. There's no substitute for experience.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

There just isn't. Because without the experience, it's a hundred percent theory to that person. They're still doing the best they can.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

And I'm not knocking them. I'm appreciative for them doing the efforts. But it's different for. Than somebody who's actually ridden on the rigs, pulled the hoses, run the saws, gone to the different events and experience that.

[Mike]

Yeah. How could that not help? So did you do all your firefighting time in Seattle?

[John]

Yes, I was hired in January. I entered their academy. Seattle's big enough to have their. To run their own academy. Okay. Not, not all departments are. A lot of departments even in that state would contract through a different. Either a private academy or the state run academy that's run by of all People, Washington State Patrol.

[Mike]

Did you have to go to college first or straight out of high school?

[John]

I did go to college, but you don't have to. You only have to have a college. You only have to have a high school diploma. Okay. Or even a ged.

[Mike]

Why did you decide to do the extra four years?

[John]

Great question. In my family of origin, my mother had the college degree. And even though she got sick when I was 1986, I would have been like 11 years old. She got sick with multiple sclerosis. But because she had the college degree, she was still able to be the primary breadwinner in our household. And I looked at that and said, you know what? Even though I want to be a fireman, it'd be good to have a backup plan.

[Mike]

Insurance policy.

[John]

It was a form of an insurance policy. And that's part of why when I went to college, I made sure that I got good enough grades that if I needed to, I could go back or wanted to, I could pursue grad school. But beyond that, I wasn't like trying to be valedictorian. I was just, look, I just need to make sure that I keep my cumulative above a 3.0, substantially better than.

[Mike]

I did in my schooling years. I got about half that.

[John]

I was blessed that academics largely came easy to me.

[Mike]

I was not. Well, there's actually, I didn't, I did not apply myself. I was not interested.

[John]

Well, the problem I'm a. I'm a big believer in the school model is not set up for most males. We're squirmy, we don't like to sit still. And that's not good when you're needing to convey information. I think that's one of the biggest reasons why the trades are such a big attraction for males. I'm speaking in generalities here. I don't want to. It's not fair to make a blanket statement across for anything across the genders. But that's just a. We've got two sons that are one's 22 and one is 20. Yeah. And so there are shining examples of young men. I couldn't be more proud. But we also saw, you know, how school, the school environment, the formal school environment was.

[Mike]

So they went through schooling during COVID as well, didn't they?

[John]

They did. Our oldest was in the regular public school.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Our youngest was doing, for a completely unrelated reason, he was playing very high level competitive basketball. And he didn't have a real desire to do the socializing at school. He wanted to play basketball. And so we sought out My wife sought out and found a program where he could do online school from home. And most of that group was divided into two big demographics. One were people that were either had a social anxiety challenge or people that were high level athletes in something, whether it was downhill ski racers or people that did equestrians. And what did wouldn't fit too well into a Monday through Friday 7am to 3:30 school model.

[Mike]

So he had already been going online, one of them online, before online became the only thing Correct.

[John]

And he was crushing it.

[Mike]

How was the transition to your son that was in doing in person school to online?

[John]

That was interesting because our particular school district just sent everybody home and said we're going to give everybody an A.

[Mike]

What?

[John]

Yeah. Or something very, very.

[Mike]

What about the knowledge that you were supposed to achieve during that time?

[John]

They had a second. The second semester of that year was just bonkers in that community.

[Mike]

They actually just said, hey, A's for everyone, go home.

[John]

Pretty much.

[Mike]

God, where was this? When I was going to high school, my GPA would have immediately gone up.

[John]

Well, it's funny because our older son is the one that ended up going to college. Up until that moment, up until that sequence of events, he wasn't. He's plenty smart. He just didn't apply himself. We'd get the report cards and we look at it. It's like nine missing assignments. Like Gunner, you did all these? Yeah. Why didn't you turn them in? I don't know. Okay. But what happened I think is that when all of a sudden he got a full semester of straight A's, it boosted his grade point average and went, hey, you know what, I can go to college. And so then he started to apply himself and got into college.

[Mike]

Win between the two. Watching one of your kids do online before online became what? I mean, I didn't even realize that was a possibility, honestly, until the COVID era was there. I mean, and obviously he had a passion outside of just the educational aspect. I don't think there's anybody. Well, there's a few people who are really into the educational aspect of high school.

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

Those way smarter than me and hung out in a different crowd than I did in high school. So there's some outliers. But your son you had that was at in person school versus the one that was online. They have the same retention of knowledge, depth of understanding of the subject. I've just always wondered about the online medium on how much actually gets through. Because when my children switched over to it, it was a proper shit show. But I Will say this too. It probably wasn't the best model to measure it against because they were trying to figure shit out on the fly.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

So I assume that what your son was doing was regimented, structured, very. Which is the opposite of what most people got thrown into.

[John]

Well, when. When the COVID thing happened, you had schools that weren't doing that were trying to learn, figure it out on the fly as they go. How do we figure it out? Had they turned to the other programs that were already quite successful at it, and the academy that he was going was a STEM academy. Science, technology, education, I don't know, Engineering, engineering, mathematics. I think. Yeah, it was a STEM focus. Not an.

[Mike]

I think there's an A in there now, too. Who knows, though?

[John]

Okay. But it was less about the arts and more about the sciences and technology and his.

[Mike]

And it was sticking with him even though it was online.

[John]

Well, it was for him. Because now what they had, their model was they had videos that you would watch and then you would take if you needed assistance. They had people that you could chat with on, that would come, come on live and walk you through, you know, screen sharing and this, that and the other thing. And then they'd move on to taking their, their. The testing process. Now, he did have to do some of the standardized testing through the state for at least a little while of it, and he did fine.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

So.

[Mike]

Yeah, I just don't.

[John]

Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Mike]

It's.

[John]

It's a great question, but the, the traditional brick and mortar schools where everybody would show up and, you know, have a lunch break and, and then go back and you got bells and all that kind of stuff that's. They didn't know how to do that. They were figuring it out. And I don't know. My only knowledge is the particular school district that we were a part of.

[Mike]

Right.

[John]

So I don't know if other school districts picked up the phone and called other places and said, hey, how do you do this?

[Mike]

I'm sure that some did anecdotally, with no data to support it, at least in the conversations that I have had with people, it seemed a lot more like pickup basketball than it did a structured approach.

[John]

I think that's probably pretty fair.

[Mike]

I would say my kids probably lost about a year of schooling.

[John]

Wouldn't be surprised. That's probably.

[Mike]

Yeah. You know, having said that, times have changed. I watch my kids figure stuff out in real time on YouTube, more so than going to textbooks, and I don't know. They're going to be okay.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

Just they had a real big hiccup in their educational experience. There was about a 12 month time period where the trapdoor kind of seemed to open. Just from an accountability perspective.

[John]

Absolutely.

[Mike]

Yeah. Some of the.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Some of the way, you know, they have to, you know, log into class. The camera on. I like some of the creative ways kids were.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Impersonating being in class. Sure.

[John]

Yeah. Circumventing the fail safes.

[Mike]

I can't judge them for it.

[John]

No. The fire community as a nature, I would suspect that naval special warfare is the same. The personalities that are in there, it's like, hey, this is a rule. Let's find out how we can get around it.

[Mike]

Yeah. The problem is some rules you shouldn't get around because most of them are written in blood.

[John]

True. I'm referring to some of the more administrative.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah. We found our ways around that.

[John]

Those. Those.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Not that. Not the battlefield rules, as you will. Yeah, not the battlefield rules. No, not those rules. The other rules that come down from people with too much collar jewelry or that focus too much on their collar jewelry.

[Mike]

Yeah. Oftentimes we would bump up against that when it came needing or wanting a piece of tech or gear and they say no. And it's like, yeah, stand by.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

We'll figure out a way to do this.

[John]

Yeah. All right.

[Mike]

So get into the academy after college.

[John]

No, I did not. After college. I completed college in spring of 96. I did it in four years. I got a degree in vehicle research and design, which was pretty.

[Mike]

Vehicle research and design?

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

I have never heard of this degree.

[John]

It's a small niche thing.

[Mike]

How'd you find your way into that?

[John]

It was at a Western Washington university up in Bellingham, which at that time was kind of a liberal college. And they had this little goofy shaped building on the corner and they'd slide pizza under the door. And about six months later, a car would roll out.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

And they'd put these cars on. I know. They put one on the COVID of Popular Science. They may have put two. We would go up against our program. At the time I was there, it was rated top three in the world. We would go up against. They were like design and build competitions. And what would happen is like say Ford or Chrysler or maybe, maybe it was a different energy company. Somebody who would sponsor this and say, hey, we're going to put out. These are the rules. There's a competition. You put together your proposal. If it gets accepted, a car will be delivered to your school and you have 18 months. And in 18 months, you're going to show up at this location and this is what the competition is going to be. We're going to measure your fuel efficiency. We're going to measure the performance of this, that and the other thing. We would routinely go to those competitions and smoke mit.

[Mike]

So they would deliver essentially a kit car. But you had flexibility in how you built the thing.

[John]

No, there was. Well, the competitions varied. Formula SAE had a Build a car, you got a clean sheet of paper. And I remember the group that was working on that, they built a car that had hollowed out aluminum bulkheads connecting four tubular carbon fiber structural members, two big ones that were probably 6 inches in diameter and two of them that were all probably 3 inches in diameter.

[Mike]

And they're manufacturing this on their own.

[John]

They would. Even the carbon fiber, the carbon fiber. There was a place called Composites Northwest about an hour away that was a composites factory. And they were very generous with their assistance with college students teaching them how to do stuff. And we're like, hey, we'll open up the facility on the weekend or something like that. You guys come down. One of their employees would donate the time and, and they would create the structures that they needed to create and, and go on. Which was fantastic. Real world experience. Yeah. And that was really, really cool. And then two years later, they. From the beginning, from the inception of this or a year later, whatever the time period was, and it varied then they would show up at these design and build competitions and they'd race these cars around tracks and measure different things. And, and there would be awards for design, there would be awards for performance, there would be awards for efficiency and depending on all the different things. But all of those, the parameters of the competitions were all laid out well in advance and they knew that they could. This, this wasn't like a 90 day deal. But I do remember one of the things that happened while I was there is that Dodge dropped off a Neon and they tore. They took a brand new car with like 0.4 miles on it. And. But here's the funny thing. Like it didn't have. I don't even know if it had a VIN on it. It was like this. This car cannot be. It can never be licensed. It can't be something because it was for experimental purposes. Yeah, but so it's not. It wasn't legal to drive on the road, even though it was a. It was a Dodge Neon. But our particular crew, they're the group that, that glommed onto that project. They said, hey, let's, let's Convert this over to natural gas. So they tore a brand new engine apart, they increased the compression ratio, redid the fuel delivery system, and came up with a fuel cell the size of a duffel bag and stuck that underneath the back seat. And you had a compressed natural gas Dodge Neon that performed just. Just as good as. Not that a Neon's high in performance, but it was essentially equal performance, comparable performance to the. To the gasoline edge.

[Mike]

I like the carbon fiber idea.

[John]

I.

[Mike]

If you want to scare yourself about carbon fiber, though. Have you watched the Netflix documentary the Titan?

[John]

I have.

[Mike]

Not the amateur mini submarine that went down to the Titanic.

[John]

Oh, okay.

[Mike]

Yeah. It might work okay in cars. Don't take it down to, I think, 4,000 meters, which is what the Titanic is at. You've seen this one. You probably saw it on the news.

[John]

I heard about it. Yes.

[Mike]

That documentary is eye opening.

[John]

I bet. I bet. Carbon fiber is a fantastic material, but it's not perfect.

[Mike]

Not at the Titanic.

[John]

It has its limits.

[Mike]

What shocked me about that documentary is that they knew that. And it was giving them audible feedback of this in many of the dives leading up to it.

[John]

And they still ignored them.

[Mike]

The main dude was like, we're good. They also stored it in freezing conditions over the season, in between the season where they had successful dives. And when that thing turned itself into a pancake.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

Which the main engineers told them, you can never allow this thing to go below freezing, especially if the water. If there was any hole deficiencies. Water gets in there. Water expands as it freezes. They left it on the dock in Nova Scotia.

[John]

Oh, goodness. Yeah.

[Mike]

There are audio recordings. Not of the fatal day, but they have a lot of the test dive stuff. I would be covered in my own fecal matter if I had been underwater. And that thing, it was just ping, ping, ping, ping, ping.

[John]

Yeah. Well. And you should watch it. I will. I will. Yes. It's like a real life horror movie. The weird thing about carbon fiber is it we're about the same age. I got you by a couple of years. But you remember when the America's cup, the sailing competition.

[Mike]

Yes.

[John]

When they tried out a carbon fiber hull.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

And it broke in half in like four seconds and sank in like 12. When carbon fiber fails, it has a tendency. Unless there's other fibers mixed in with that fiber weave. Kevlar is one of them.

[Mike]

You.

[John]

You end up with catastrophic failures. It doesn't just sort of crack, it becomes two pieces. Yeah. What.

[Mike]

Also what I. I was gonna say. I love this about the documentary, but that's not the case. They had never built a prototype that had made it to the depths of the Titanic before building the big one.

[John]

It.

[Mike]

They have video of it exploding in the testing pressure tanks and they're all in the room and it blows up inside of a. It was a whatever 18 scale model.

[John]

Right? Right.

[Mike]

Never made it.

[John]

Boom. You know what the challenge with that 1:8 scale model is? Is that for the same reason, if you look at. And it's all about pounds per square inch, if you look at like small diameter tubing or pipe, whether it's copper pipe or stainless steel pipe, if it's going to carry say 1000 psi, the wall thickness is very, very thin compared to a 4 inch diameter pipe.

[Mike]

Yeah, but everything is thin compared to a 4 inch diameter pipe. That's for a 5 inch diameter pipe.

[John]

Correct. And that's because of the psi requirements. So if they're doing a 18 model, was the thickness of the carbon fiber of their 18 model? 18 the thickness of.

[Mike]

I don't know that. And so they only were testing and.

[John]

I don't know if it's linear. It may have to be exponential for the for to get it thinner to be a proper representation of what kind of. What kind of pressures it's going to be able to withstand.

[Mike]

Well, based on my. So again, I don't want to. I don't want to let my enthusiasm outstrip my, my knowledge on this one, even though I think I already have there. The whole thing wasn't carbon fiber. It was this cylinder.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

That the people sat inside. Sure, there was a glass, but I bet you it was some type of composite on the front. And then the weird little. Will you pull up a picture of this submersible? Michael, have you watched Titan yet? No, It's a pretty good one. I tried to get Leah to watch it. She asked what it was and I made the mistake of telling her and she said no, I'm going to bed. Like you don't want to watch people vaporize at the Titanic. I really don't think they felt much.

[John]

I think that's at least it was probably very instant. So.

[Mike]

Yeah, but wasn't.

[John]

Was it like didn't one of them have their kid with them on that?

[Mike]

Yes, there was a 19 year old. So only the only section, they just hover actually the second image of people.com in between the two metal rings. Essentially that's what they were testing.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

Because that's the composite section.

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

Everything on the aft. I don't think had anything to do with what needed to withstand pressure. But you can see the glass up front. I don't. I think they made that circular dome out of metal.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

And this was supposed to be revolutionary because that pressure chamber. My word, not necessarily there's was carbon fiber. But they showed these things at the smaller than scale failing and failing and failing. And then they fucking sent it.

[John]

That's extra special stupid.

[Mike]

The CEO took it down by himself on the first 20 dives.

[John]

Well that's.

[Mike]

Which is partially ballsy. But also he was ignoring advice from almost everybody. The level of hubris there was just unbelievable. His head engineer and the chief engineer says this in the documentary. He told the CEO and founder. I will not get in this thing.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

That I feel like should be heeded a little bit.

[John]

You should put some weight on that. I mean it's. It's kind of like the. I don't know if this has been true, but I remember hearing stories of the engineers at NASA arguing to the point they were in tears trying to not allow the Challenger to launch based on what had happened with the temperatures overnight and how it was anticipated to screw up the seals.

[Mike]

I can see that.

[John]

And somebody made the decision. I have no proof. I have no proof. But that's what was going on circulating around civilianness in Gosh. I would have been in about seventh or eighth grade. Sixth or seventh grade. I forget.

[Mike]

We watched that one in class.

[John]

We did too.

[Mike]

They wheeled in the old TV strapped to the.

[John]

As did we. Yeah. Yes. And I was.

[Mike]

Sealed it out shortly after that.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

And we got sent home actually.

[John]

Yeah, like. And the teachers were all excited about it because a teacher was a guest astronaut.

[Mike]

I think several teachers actually.

[John]

Was it several? I thought it was only one. I think. I think her name. I think it was Christa or Christina McAuliffe.

[Mike]

Why in the head was I thinking that entire astronaut mission was full of teachers? That would be idiotic. You need some astronauts on that.

[John]

My understanding there was a tie to education. Yes, there would. I. To the best of my recollection, I'm pretty sure it was only one. I mean they were making a big deal out of it.

[Mike]

Do you know that there is a conspiracy theory that those people are still alive?

[John]

There's probably a conspiracy theory about that. I'm not surprised apparently.

[Mike]

And I am barely aware that this one exists because I don't have time for this shit. But it's. They were somehow taken out of there. They've been living their own lives. There are some websites dedicated to pictures of them taken in Public.

[John]

Interesting.

[Mike]

Since then. Yeah. Well, what's the most likely situation here? I think they got inside of the space shuttle and it blew up and had a real shit day.

[John]

Yeah, I think they had a bad day. Yeah. Yeah. So game over.

[Mike]

Yeah. Carbon fiber.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Great for vehicles potentially.

[John]

Consider not visiting the Titanic in a carbon fiber submarine.

[Mike]

Oh, man.

[John]

I mean, look, if the carbon fiber walls are three feet thick, they weren't even.

[Mike]

It was like six inches.

[John]

I'll bet you looking at the size of that, I can't imagine they were even six inches thick. That thing's tiny.

[Mike]

It is not. You know, I think there was five people in it. It was. And you can see on the third image over. So there was the flat platform. I mean, that's the area that five people were in. Driven with a PlayStation controller, which, I don't know, maybe that's amazing because they have advanced technology, but it was driven with a video game console controller.

[John]

I'm less judgmental about that because if they can tie it into, all it does is send signals.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

If it's that reliable. And there's a fair amount of field testing that's been done on those.

[Mike]

Spoiler alert for. Well, it's too late now, but anybody who hasn't watched the documentary, they all die. They were found about 400 meters from the Titanic wreck. And yeah, the shape that it was found in did not loosely resemble like portions of it did. Like the back actually did because I don't think that again, was inside of the pressure hole.

[John]

Interesting.

[Mike]

So everything that imploded, I believe, was from those two. Basically that. Just to the left of the ocean.

[John]

Gate forward, that band. Yeah, that makes sense. So anyway, you know what they say.

[Mike]

The last thing to go through your mind is when that happens. Your teeth, your asshole.

[John]

But yeah, okay, you know. Yes.

[Mike]

I don't know if anybody says that, but that's what I was just thinking.

[John]

No, that's, that's. That's. Yeah.

[Mike]

How the fuck did we start talking about this?

[John]

We started on your car. Yeah, the. The degree. So you. So, yeah, getting back to it. I went to college, got my degree because I wanted a backup plan and got the backup plan, got the degree, left college near. At the tail end of college. I was. I was blessed that I had a couple of people recruiting me to come work for them. But it wasn't fire departments. My mom wanted me to go into something kind of in her career. My dad wanted me to go to something kind of in his industry. I took a job that kept me in the Seattle Market with it happened to be with a company that was referred to through my mom. And about three or four months after I graduated, my dad had a really bad accident. And so I left that company and I went to try to save my dad's company. Now, at the time, my dad owned an RV repair company, and he had transitioned into that from doing small general contracting and remodeling when I was, throughout my. My entire life, up until about my freshman year of high school.

[Mike]

Was he an RV enthusiast?

[John]

We had kind of crappy RVs growing up, but it was just to him, it was a way that people brought their. Brought the project to him rather than him going into their home and doing the work. And then sometimes he had a hard time getting paid. Okay. And this way, if they didn't pay, you don't get your RV back.

[Mike]

Yeah, you do have the asset.

[John]

You've got the asset. So that was part of his logic. Now, I was a freshman in high school when this happened. We didn't really talk too much about beyond that, in too much depth about why he made that decision, but it was interesting to him, and so he bought that. And so when he had his wreck, he was in a medication induced coma for healing purposes for a month, month and a half. And somebody had to get his business, keep his business running. And so I, at least I felt somebody needed to keep his business running. As his oldest child, I said, all right, And I knew how his business ran. I went, okay, fine, let me go see if I can preserve this so he has something to come back to Now. Dad was never a very good businessman. He was a terrific craftsman. Tremendous craftsman, but not really good at business. So his business was not doing super profitably, but still, it was like, okay, well, let's see if we can maintain this. But we were also going into the slow season. The busy season for the RV stuff tends to be a couple weeks before Memorial Day, through hunting season, and then it pretty much dies down.

[Mike]

That makes sense.

[John]

So. And this happened in September, so it was starting to taper off. But long story short, that courts ended up getting involved. I was ordered to shut it down. I followed the court's directions, and then I went, wow, I'm sleeping on my mom's couch. Because I gave up everything to try to go do this. What am I gonna do? So I got a job at Boeing and I went to work at Boeing thinking. I went, you know what, I need to push the reset a little bit here, and I need to get back to living my life, not living my Life for what my parents wanted, either direction. That's right. I wanted to be a fireman. Let's go do that. So I got a job at Boeing. Because you don't just. Back then, you don't just say, I want to be a fireman. And start next week. It was civil service testing process. The testing process begin. You'd register for the test in January, for the following January hire list, because you'd have register, take the test, then you got your physical, then you got your sequence of oral boards and interviews, then you got your medical evaluation. And then if you pass all of those, then you can begin. It took me three years of testing to get hired, which at that time was pretty fast. I was being told by people that the average was 8.

[Mike]

What were you doing at Boeing at that time?

[John]

I was in their engineering pool. I was not a very good employee. I was a good employee. I was not good at what they hired me for. I found a niche that I was really good at and it was helping, basically getting other people to do their job. And I was hired at the tail end of. Boeing has always been cyclical. What they're hiring, they'd hire for a while and then they'd stay status quo for a couple years, and then they go through sequel layoffs, and they'd stay status quo, and then they start hiring. I got hired in the tail end of a spree. Rode it out for a couple of years. I made it through the first two, maybe three rounds of layoffs, and then I got my things left about six months late. I went to work for my friend who owned a mechanic shop. I helped him out there. It helped me out. And I was blessed that when I got laid off in June, I didn't know where I was, what was going to happen. But it turned out the following January, I was invited into the Riku class, into the academy.

[Mike]

How was the academy?

[John]

It was. I think it was 14 weeks. Okay.

[Mike]

And then from there you go straight.

[John]

Out to the department, you go into the company's. Correct.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

So, yeah, 14 weeks at their training facility, and you go through a fair amount of stress inoculation.

[Mike]

Do you get paid during that? You become an employee as.

[John]

Yes, you are a city employee. We sadly, it kind of ties back into the dispatch. We had an awesome gentleman who had a training accident while he was in the Academy. Former A6 pilot, just a stud guy. And he was. He was injured enough, he could never work on the line. But because he was in the fire department and an employee, it was his injuries were recognized and covered. And he was able to work in dispatch. As to my knowledge, he was the only guy that actually didn't work in the field as a firefighter before that. But he was able to work at dispatch. They made an exception, which I thought was the right thing to do. And he was fantastic. So we would. You get done with the academy and then you go out to the companies.

[Mike]

How was it firefighting in Seattle?

[John]

At the time I started, we had a pretty nationally, we had a reputation being a very, very aggressive fire department. We would.

[Mike]

Does that mean you go inside of. I mean, what does that mean?

[John]

Yes, yes. You go structures that other people, that other departments don't train for, they don't have an attitude for. But we had some legacy leadership that was like, no, we're going to train you to do it, we're going to equip you to do it and then you're going to go do it. You're going to go into those buildings and you're going to put that darn fire out. Because that's what we're here to do. And we were also blessed that as a part of that and every fire department I know you had one of your recent episodes that dropped was Jim Prabhu. Did I say that correctly? Prabhu. Prabhu. I was listening to him describe every department, how they have. Their structure is a little bit different. We ran four person platoon, four person companies, not three person. And we had paramedics that were part of our department, but we did not put a paramedic on an engine or a paramedic on a truck to run with the three other people our paramedics rode. They were still firefighters and they were expected to maintain their firefighters credentials and certifications. But they ran on a dedicated ALS unit as pairs working with one another. Now it wasn't. It was also on a constant rotation. So it wasn't like if you and I were both medics, you and I are just constantly the Davey and Andy team. It was. It was because what they realized is if they did that, then you would become dependent on my skills, I would become dependent on yours. And maybe you did pediatric stuff and maybe I did geriatric stuff. And they didn't want that. They wanted everybody to be able to keep their reps up on all of it. So they would rotate through who was working with who when that happened or how that, how that works out in that department is. I'm incredibly proud of my working under the umbrella of the medic one group. Now, I was not A medic. I did not choose to do that. I would have loved to have earned those skills. But how our department was structured, it was not something that I wanted to do, because if I left my truck and went to the paramedic program, I'd basically. Even though I'd have the title of firefighter, I'd basically be done fighting fire. I'd be doing nothing but ALS every day. So they're busy, but I'm incredibly proud to have worked alongside of them. They're some of the best on the planet.

[Mike]

So you were an engineer.

[John]

Great question. In our department, we didn't call them engineers. We called them drivers.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

And in our departments, I feel like.

[Mike]

It means the same thing.

[John]

It tends to. There are some departments that call them chauffeurs.

[Mike]

That's. That's rough. I don't think they would appreciate being called that.

[John]

Oh, they. It's. It's a. In the. In those. That's.

[Mike]

I mean, somebody has to drive the damn truck, right?

[John]

Exactly. And at the time of my termination, I was the senior driver of Ladder Company 5. We were one of the busiest trucks in the city.

[Mike]

I didn't realize that it was always the same person driving the truck. I honestly. And again, this is due to my own naivete. I just figured that they rotated the driver throughout. I didn't realize it was such a specialty.

[John]

There are some department. Smaller departments will have a tendency to do that. The driver rotation thing, I know of one, at least that used to. I don't know if they still do it, but if Jim is your driver, and Jim's off on vacation that day, there's usually a designated relief driver, and they have to have a certain baseline of certifications. They might not be the driver, but they have to be certified to do it.

[Mike]

Well, it's more than just being the driver, too, Right. I mean, aren't they a specialist on basically everything associated with the truck?

[John]

Essentially, yes, but that's more of an informal expectation, really. Yes. As the. In my department. Different departments. Different departments are going to have different structures on how that works. Some of it's going to be very formalized, and some of it's going to be very informal. When I first came in, your driver position was not. Well, it was right up until the last couple years I was there. The driver position was inherited. It was not tested.

[Mike]

So, okay, the driver, you show up to the fire. What was he expected to do if it wasn't regimented? He would just go find busy work.

[John]

We had protocols for what the roles would be Doing. If you were the second new engine company the driver would spearhead. But your primary job was to secure the water supply which would be connected to the nearest hydrant or the most appropriate hydrant in the best possible way. We were spoiled in Seattle that we had an immense water supply. We had terrific hydrant. There's only a couple of neighborhoods that had crappy hydrants that didn't flow very much. But almost every hydrant in the city would flow 1500 gallons a minute.

[Mike]

Is that just a metric of city planning?

[John]

Yeah. Yes. Part of it is the topography that we had and the river that supplied the water into that system. We had hydrants. When you look at some of the pictures of the waterfront of the city of Seattle, those hydrants there, along that waterfront, their hydrant pressure was so big they'd actually use the. When they. When the engine would connect to those hydrants, they'd use the engine, the valving to throttle it down. It's like basically a regulator. Yeah, it becomes a regulator, not a pump. Wow. Now they'd still have it. It still has to. The PTO is still running, but it's like, yeah, we're. We're throttling this down because it's going to be hot if we don't do it.

[Mike]

So how'd you end up as the driver?

[John]

Time. I just had to outweigh everybody else.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

But it's what I wanted to do.

[Mike]

You wanted to be the driver.

[John]

I did. I did. I never.

[Mike]

You don't want to be the guy with the coat and the ax and the helmet running in the building?

[John]

The. Well, I don't just sit there out there or sit outside if the. Depending on the assignment. I'm the guy with the ax and the coat and I go running into the building with the rest of my team.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

Depending on where it is, what the protocols are, what the nature of the emergency and what our assignment is. If we're first in, are we second in what goes on. I could be the guy that stands at the turntable with the hydraulic controls and runs the hundred foot aerial and. And gets people either off out of, you know, apartment balconies or I've walked people down from the monorail like two or three times now. Two or three times ago when it caught on fire. It just keeps catching on fire every few years.

[Mike]

That doesn't seem to very good be very good design.

[John]

It's not, but it's from the world's fair in 19 something or the 60s. So it's old. Yeah, that's as the driver, we're still part of the crew. Most of the. On EMS calls. Most of the time I'm the one who's manning the radio and communicating to other resources. Hey, can we have an ambulance for BLS transport? Or. Hey, do we need to upgrade this to an ALS dispatch? Can we have a medic unit? Can we have an additional company? Because we need more manpower for this. If somebody who's big and chubby and needs to be lifted or something like that, and that happened a lot.

[Mike]

We're gonna spend about the next three hours talking about fat people.

[John]

They're almost always naked and they're almost always sweaty. It's gross.

[Mike]

When do you realize you have to cut through the wall to get somebody out of their bed? And what is that? Like you enter a house, no disrespect to anybody, but you encounter Jabba the Hutt.

[John]

Correct.

[Mike]

What do you do?

[John]

Sometimes you gotta make a. Yeah, you gotta make hole in a wall. It's been done. Yeah, it's been done.

[Mike]

What do you lift them with?

[John]

That's a great question. Towards the later end of my career, we, we stumbled across. Somebody started inventing this thing. They call it a mega mover. It is a tarp with a bunch of handles. And we can kinda. We can roll them and kind of shove it underneath there and roll them back. Pull it back up. Yeah. A mega mover, please.

[Mike]

If there was ever an image that I need to see. You need to see.

[John]

And so we would. The mega movers were actually. Yep, that's it right there. There's your pictures.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

And they were.

[Mike]

Michael, click on the Mega Mover 1500 there. I would like to see the written description of how they try to politically correctly word this. And thread the needle. Go down to the description.

[John]

Whoa.

[Mike]

Oh, we have a discount X out of that disc. You bastards. That was on like a 10 second timer.

[John]

Safely.

[Mike]

Safely transport patients up to 1500 pounds.

[John]

It is rated for 1500 pounds. Holy. I think the biggest one I ever dealt with was like 750.

[Mike]

That's a £750.

[John]

That's a big human. That's a big human.

[Mike]

Go down a little bit more, Michael.

[John]

Oh.

[Mike]

What is frequently purchased with the mega mover. 1500 go down presser pressure bandage transport chair. That seems to be like kind of the same thing.

[John]

It's. It. I never saw one of those. But looking right at it, just, just looking at that, I'm going, yeah. That's basically a chair version of a megamove.

[Mike]

This is an eclectic group of things that Are bought together. A metal eye patch. Go back up, Michael. Metal eye patch. And a rolled aluminum splint. 750 pounds.

[John]

750 pounds.

[Mike]

What do they usually call for?

[John]

Chest pain, difficulty breathing.

[Mike]

Is that just due to an immense amount of weight on their chest?

[John]

Probably. And the lifestyle that led them to that weight.

[Mike]

How is that called dispatched? When you guys are in, when do you realize that you're like, hey, deploy the Mega Mover 1500. Because, I mean, I don't feel like that's. That information is necessarily getting transmitted on the initial phone call. Is this. You guys come around a corner, you're like, whoa, yes. Awesome.

[John]

Sometimes it's a free. We would call them a frequent flyer. Somebody who calls frequently because usually by the time they're in that state of health, they call 911 a lot. 911 becomes primary healthcare for them.

[Mike]

Fuck.

[John]

And so we'd see the address come in. It's like, yep, it's Bob again.

[Mike]

Okay, but for a non frequent flyer. When would you realize that?

[John]

When we are. When we walk around the corner and see orca.

[Mike]

How long does it take to move somebody that size?

[John]

It can take a while. Can. I mean, now I'm. I'm six. I'm a shirt. Just a Scotia Six Two. I'm 235 pounds. When I got hired in the fire department in Seattle, I was middle sized.

[Mike]

What in the hell does that mean?

[John]

They used to grow. They used to hire them big. This. The physical.

[Mike]

Oh, like Vikings.

[John]

Yeah. They were big people.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

They were just. Everybody was. Almost everybody was big. I was mid sized.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

When I got at that size. And when you have people that are that big, it's a whole lot easier than when you have people that are 5 foot 4, 140 pounds. Because people can. They're bigger and they're stronger. The old physical agility test, that was the. That you had to do really well on was a what we would call a big man's physical. It was built for people that were really, really big. And so you ended up with a lot of firefighters that were really big and strong. Ironically, I got hired on the first and I did really. I took that test. I told you for three years. I did really well on those physicals. The first two. On the third year, I was hired on the first year that they switched to what they call the CPAT Candidate physical aptitude test. And it's a joke. You have to. They wouldn't even let you jog. You had to walk it. And it was not reflective of the job.

[Mike]

Do you know why that change came.

[John]

To be what we have? It's because, in my opinion, it's because of what became the DEI movement.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

You had too many people that were claiming that they were being discriminated against because they couldn't pass that test. That's what I think happened.

[Mike]

I'm gonna be honest. I mean, I want people to live their most fulfilled life.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

If you call 911, I want the people who resp to be like, incredibly physically capable. I'm not a fan of discrimination. I'm a fan of standards. And if you can't meet the standards for that job, I'm sorry, go find a different job. As much as that hurts your feelings.

[John]

No, absolutely. I'm a completely. And you know what? I don't care if you're a woman. I don't care if you're purple. I don't care what God you pray to. If you can meet the standard, let's go to work. And I just don't care. And I think that the vast majority of the people that I came across, that was their attitude. I don't care. Do you meet the standard? What they did is they just really, really, really lowered the standard.

[Mike]

Well, back to the really important part.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

750 pounds.

[John]

750 pounds.

[Mike]

Did you talk with these people?

[John]

Oh, yeah. While they're wheezing? Most of the time they're wheezing because they're having that. They're having that much difficulty breath.

[Mike]

How do they live their. What's a day to day life look like for somebody who's.

[John]

They typically don't get out of bed or off the couch?

[Mike]

How do they take a shit then?

[John]

Usually that's a good question.

[Mike]

Followed up by how do they wipe their ass?

[John]

Based on how it smelled? Often I suspect that they didn't wipe their ass and they either shat themselves in the bed or the couch that they were in, or there was trails of that leading to and from the toilet. These people typically did not live healthy, moderately hygienic lives. They were typically shocking to hear that. Really. Yeah, exactly. But how do you let yourself get to £750?

[Mike]

I don't know.

[John]

I don't know either. Look, I've had seasons in my life where I put on a little extra pounds.

[Mike]

What we're talking about is beyond a little extra pounds.

[John]

Agreed.

[Mike]

That's a lot of extra pounds plus a few more little extra pounds. Yeah, yeah. I have more than anything logistical questions about how life is even possible at that size.

[John]

It's pretty difficult.

[Mike]

What do they do? They. What kind of gurney do you put them on at the hospital that can tolerate almost 800 pounds?

[John]

That's a good question. We. The gurneys are rated for like six or seven. And it's like, okay. When we would make AMR American Medical Response, they had one particular. All of the new vans, the gurney was up against one side and the attendant would sit on the other side. The earlier ones where it was more of a box, the gurney was in the middle.

[Mike]

Yep.

[John]

Well, they retained one of those even though it was really, really old with a lot of miles. And they had a nickname for that car. They called it Orca. And when we would call.

[Mike]

For special use situations.

[John]

Yes, Special use situations. And when we would call. Hey, amr, can we get a transport? This is our address. And you need to bring the Orca car. Okay.

[Mike]

I feel like that term is not in doctrine anywhere. In Seattle, of all places.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I don't feel like that term is indoctrinated anywhere, even though I can appreciate it. Everybody knows what it means, but it doesn't show up on paper.

[John]

Right. Yeah.

[Mike]

You don't want hurt anybody's feelings who weighs 750 pounds.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

And so, yeah, I've heard stories that. Of the things they find in the roles.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

People, remotes, sandwiches.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

Yeah. Like Subway footlongs that went missing in air quotes.

[John]

Right. Yeah. You storing that for later. Ooh.

[Mike]

How do they get home from the hospital?

[John]

Don't know. They don't call us. Thank goodness. I know. Or if they do, we don't go do it.

[Mike]

And that's where my brain's going. So if they needed your help to get there.

[John]

Correct.

[Mike]

What type of Uber do you order to get home?

[John]

My guess is it's, you know, put them in the back of a Suburban or back of a buddy's van or something. I don't know. But my guess is that when they're coming home from the hospital that they've been medically pumped up on some form of steroid or whatever, so that they can at least not anabolic steroids, but to get them to the point where they can breathe and kind of waddle themselves. Because here's the thing, when they are that big, it takes muscle to move that much weight. So you will find a lot of times those very large people can be surprisingly strong.

[Mike]

You'd have to be able to move though, Correct?

[John]

Correct. They just have to be. And so if they can get whatever respiratory issue moderately under control, then that were there attending them Then when it comes time to go home. Hey, they're been treated at the hospital, okay? Hey, they can breathe better. All right, fine. I can waddle myself out to my buddy's van. I can get in the back of the van, man. Yeah, but it's happened. We've had to. And when that happens, it's rare. But when it does happen, that story runs through the fire department like an old ladies bridge club.

[Mike]

It's just who pays for fixing the wall?

[John]

To my knowledge, not the fire department.

[Mike]

I would imagine so.

[John]

Right, right.

[Mike]

I mean you guys were doing what you had to do to provide medical care, correct?

[John]

I don't, I don't know. It's one of those interesting what you ask who's gonna fix it. I don't know. It ain't me.

[Mike]

It's not your guys job.

[John]

It's not my. Yeah, it's. It's not our issue. So.

[Mike]

All right, well, when did it start falling apart for you? Seattle.

[John]

The, the wheel started coming off the bus in August of 21 and that was when the governor of the state of Washington issued a mandate that everybody was going to everybody under the executive branch description or something like that. And police and fire fell under that, that they would be required to take a Covid vaccination shot sequence. And I'm using that term, they called it a vaccine. We'll just call it the COVID shots, if that's okay.

[Mike]

Did you have a choice between the manufacturer.

[John]

They did not offer. They. They didn't specify one or the other. They said you have to have it if you have to. If you pick this one, you have to have it by this date. If you pick this one, you have to have it by that date. And short. Now I think the state mandate was a little bit less. It was more vague. It had it. Basically everybody's mandating. We're going to leave it to the individual agencies to figure out how they're going to it do it. And then a day, same day or the day after the mayor, then mayor Jenny Durkin of the city of Seattle came out with her own mandate in mayoral directive number nine. And it said you either that you must have this shot sequence and it has to have. Because there's a. There's a period of time after you take any sort of an inoculation where it has to process through your body for your body's immune system to, to be able to be affected by it.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's not instantaneous.

[John]

It's not instantaneous. So I think the right term for that is latency period. But I could be wrong for that. They wanted that window of time to be up by October 18th of 2021. And so the different manufacturers, because of how they did it, they had different windows. If you're going to go with this one, you have to have it by this date. If you come with this one, you got to go have it with that date. Date. Now, I'm a person of faith. I'm a Christian. And one of the things that is a hard no for me is I'm not going to accept a medication that was derived using tissue from an aborted fetus. I'm not okay with that. Hard pass. Hard no. So at that juncture. Oh, on the. On the mayoral directive number nine, it says, you have to have this. And then it says, but if you don't, you have to mask or test on a daily or maybe even weekly basis. All right, fine, I'll mask and I'll take a daily test. Fine. Because I'm. It's a hard note. I'm not taking one of these shots because at that time, everything that we knew that was available for us to know is that, yeah, that was. They used tissue from an aborted fetus or plural, I don't know, to derive and help create those.

[Mike]

What was the general reaction? And again, I mean, this is going to be anecdotal based on the experience you had with your peers, but how was that guidance generally received?

[John]

That's a really good question. And I love sharing this. We had a union. Well, there still is a union. It's Seattle fire Department Local 27. And there were some people that went to the local when this whole thing got up. And you can imagine that the union has just went all up in arms. You had a few people that were very, very pro mandate, and you had. But somebody went to a union meeting. I missed this one. And they. And I'd never really been a giant union guy, but I always paid my dues for my entire career. I was always a member in good standing. I felt that that gave me the right to. If I wanted to go to a meeting and I could voice an objection, that I could voice my objection. Somebody compelled a vote. They followed the proper rules. I think it's Robert's rules of order that they follow. They said, hey, look, when the time's appropriate, I'm going to request a vote by the membership. And then it got seconded and approved. So they compelled the union leadership to conduct a vote. Should the union support the mandate or should the union oppose the mandate. Even under for contract votes for approving or declining contracts, the union historically does not get a really large voter turnout. It's not unlike our national political process. Not a lot of people vote 30%.

[Mike]

Ish.

[John]

Yeah, I think we were a little bit more than that on contract votes, which are your big ones. We had a huge turnout for this. Biggest turnout I've ever seen in my entire career. I don't remember what the percentage. The turnout percentage was, but it was a lot. And a super majority came back. You need to fight the mandate. And the union leadership decided not to. They went against the union membership's orders. And at that point, it's an order.

[Mike]

Isn't that not supposed to be possible?

[John]

Correct.

[Mike]

That's the point of the vote, right?

[John]

That is correct. They have a responsibility. We believe they have a responsibility. That when you have that kind of a. That wasn't.

[Mike]

Well, what's the point of calling it a vote if the.

[John]

I think it may have been an advisory vote. It's not binding.

[Mike]

When it came to the contracts, though.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Was that advisory?

[John]

No, that was binding.

[Mike]

Yeah. See, that doesn't. They're picking and choosing their language there. I'm not an expert in any.

[John]

And I'm not either.

[Mike]

Yeah. Just as an outsider. What's the point of calling for a vote if you're going to disregard the situation?

[John]

Well, but the union leadership didn't call for the vote. They were compelled to do the vote by one of the members.

[Mike]

For whatever reason, for whatever. How the vote goes to the box 100%. If you're not going to listen to what comes out the other end of it, what's the point of the whole thing?

[John]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's one of. That's been one of our points. But the thing is that's an issue with our union, which is a completely separate entity and organization than with the city.

[Mike]

So the union supported the mandate, essentially.

[John]

They did. They did they. To the point where they actually brought out the president of the International to our local business. Our regular business meeting in November and which happened to be the day after my exit interview from being fired. And he talked about how the International wouldn't back us. Interestingly enough, to my knowledge, every single union doesn't matter what the trade or what the. What the group was. Every single union that I'm aware of that fought the mandates. Because these mandates were not limited to just Seattle. They're all over the place. Every single union that fought the mandates prevailed. And the mandates were not pushed through on that particular. On those Represented employees. Even the president of the IAFF's own union, Boston, his local fought it, and they didn't have. They beat the mandate. So. But again, part of our argument is. Wait a minute. Your directive, your rule said, if we're not going to get the shots, you can mask and test. All right, great. I'll mask and test.

[Mike]

Yeah. They gave you an avenue to go.

[John]

They gave us an avenue in writing. And so on the 18th of October, 19th of October, 1 of those two dates, because it. By the 18th, and if you didn't have it by the 18th, on the 19th, you were essentially suspended without penalty.

[Mike]

Even if you were going to mass contest.

[John]

Correct. They. They basically, through the process, they. They carte blanche. Did not. They would call that an accommodation. We're going to accommodate your religious exemption by. By having you mask and test. That would be a form of an accommodation. And we were absolutely willing to do that, to my knowledge, to a person. And there was about 70 people. It might have been 68, it might have been 72, but right about 70 in the fire department that either submitted resignation paperwork under duress or myself was one of these. I didn't submit resignation paperwork. They fired me.

[Mike]

What's the total headcount of the department?

[John]

About a thousand.

[Mike]

Okay, so just under 10%.

[John]

A little under 10%. And so that's how that went down. And we.

[Mike]

Up until the point where they fired you, what was the attitude? I mean, were people trying to comply? Were you trying to do the masking and testing? They just told you not to come in. Did you become a leper at that point?

[John]

I mean, like, well, we had up until the 18th for any of this stuff to take effect. So we were operating business as usual. There were periods of time where we were directed to mask, and then there was periods of time where, hey, you didn't have to mask. And then it was like, hey, if you had the shot, you didn't have to mask, but if you didn't, you did. It's like, okay, fine, I'll play your rules or I'll play your game. I'll play by your rules. And so because I didn't have the shots, I was like, okay, yeah, sure, if you're gonna. If that's how. What you're gonna do. If you're gonna make me wear a mask, I'll wear a mask. And we're living to one. We're living with one another. So it's. It's. We're in a house. It's just like you living with, you know, Your family.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

So now we're there somewhere between two and four nights a week or two and four days a week, depending on how the rotation falls. And if you're working overtime, and overtime has been an absolute, a giant issue for the past 10 years, they have been in effectively a staffing crisis because they won't, they can't or they won't hire people. And the people that they do hire, they don't hire the right people. They hire people that are good employees because they have a good work history, not because people that just did a, have done hard manual labor. It's a hard job. It's very much a blue collar job.

[Mike]

It seems like it from the outside.

[John]

You know, it's, you're lifting heavy things like 750 pound patients. You're lifting those. The tools that people nickname the jaws of. There's different, there's different brands of those. Those aren't light. You know, our chainsaws are still 460. That's not a light chainsaw. All of our, most, all of our tools are quite heavy.

[Mike]

Yeah. I mean if you're going to cut a car into pieces, you're probably not going to do that with a set of kitchen shears.

[John]

No, you're not.

[Mike]

Yeah. So after the 18th or the 19th.

[John]

They basically told you every, everybody who didn't, who didn't have even if they had their paperwork file. So we, during this process from when they, they started the, the whole. This is what's going to happen. All right, fine. More information is going to be forthcoming. Here's the form. Here's a clink. The link to click if you need to fill out the religious exemption. Okay, fine. Or a medical exemption. So I filled out the religious exemption. I put my Y on it. I was actually a couple of days. They did give us a deadline, which I thought was kind of odd. I was a couple of days behind the deadline because I just wanted to make sure that, that I chose the right words to accurately reflect my core what my why is. And it was accepted on the first, on the first submission. It's like, yep, okay, fine, we accept your religious exemption. And then there was virtual, there was very, very minimal. Hey, we can't accommodate you, so you're gonna, we're gonna recommend you for termination. Unless you've got any ideas. Well, how about masking and testing? Nope, we've already thought about that. That that's it, you're going to get fired. And so I was one of the early people processed out. I was processed. There was A couple of people ahead of me, but there was. Most everybody was behind me. I was processed out on. My exit interview was November either 17th or 18th, 16th 17th or 18th of November. And it was effective three business days later. And because that was a Wednesday, my last day on the books was. Was a Tuesday day.

[Mike]

How'd that exit interview go?

[John]

There was not. It was very clear that there was nothing that I could say. And the term for that exit interview is. It's actually a collective bargaining term. They call it a Loudermill hearing. The first guy that had this last name was Loudermill. And it's effectively your opportunity to have a face to face with the individual where the buck stops. Who has the. Has the ultimate decision over whether or not this happens.

[Mike]

Do they make that decision in that room or it's just your chance to throw your case against the wall?

[John]

I think it's your chance to throw your case against the wall. I think they can make the decision in the room. I think they also have the ability to flex it back if they need to do more consideration. And sometimes what you would find is people were like, hey, I just got my third dui. I've been to rehab, or I'm checking into rehab. Clearly I've got a problem. I don't know. No, not a DUI on duty. I'm talking about a personal issue. And it's their opportunity to offer a full mea culpa. I'm sorry, I'm accepting responsibility. I'm gonna do a better job. And throw themselves at the mercy of the person who has the ability to either end their career or allow them to continue it with possibly with conditions. They go on super secret probation. If you fart sideways the wrong way, you're fired.

[Mike]

Okay, who was the person who did your interview? Were they a member of the fire department?

[John]

It was the chief, Harold Scoggins. And he had a coup of other people present. Helen Fitzpatrick, who is part of their administration, people. I think there was another couple of people on there too. I don't want to say the wrong name. So. And then I had a representative from the union who happened to be the local president, Kenny Stewart. And this was all done via teams or Zoom or one of those video conferences. So I put on my class A uniform and I sat in front of my computer and I logged in at the appropriate time. And I sat there and I went back and forth with the chief. And the chief took some time to acknowledge my almost 22 years of exemplary service to the fire department in 2018 or 19. This is. I'm not saying this to say to brag. This is just. I was not a doofus employee. I was nominated for Firefighter of the Year. I was not awarded it. But you don't get nominated for that without doing a good job.

[Mike]

That's fair.

[John]

So this was not me constantly being in trouble and being a subpar employee. That's not what that's about. And they can't really. And there's a number of us that were really, really awesome, and they just, boom, you're fired. I'm not saying that sounded bad. It sounded like I'm saying I'm awesome. We were good employees.

[Mike]

I did sound like that.

[John]

Yeah, we were good employees. You know, in most organizations of that size, you're going to have one or two or 10 people that are kind of doofuses, and they're constantly making dumb decisions. The people that are in our group of people largely are not those people.

[Mike]

Did the chief seem like he cared?

[John]

No, absolutely not. Look like when. When you're doing a screen interview, we have the camera. He's not even looking at the camera. He's looking off the side the whole time. We had one of our people ask him, hey, is there anything that I can say or do in this meeting that's going to change the outcome?

[Mike]

That's a good question.

[John]

I wish I'd had the foresight to think of that question. I had my own list of questions, but that one wasn't on that list. And unfortunately, I didn't record it. I don't think we would have been allowed to. But I didn't ask and I didn't sit. What I should have done is just set up a cell phone and hit record on it and record the interview.

[Mike]

I think that's illegal.

[John]

Yeah, it's probably illegal.

[Mike]

I don't know if it would have helped you in court if it was too.

[John]

Yeah, probably not. But anyway, it's. It would have been interesting to see.

[Mike]

What was his response to that guy's question? Is there anything that I could say?

[John]

No.

[Mike]

Really?

[John]

Nothing you can do.

[Mike]

Then what the fuck is the point of doing the interview?

[John]

Exactly. It's not an interactive process, but it's. It has to be done to check the union box, because the union, in our part of our collective bargaining agreement, you have a right to a louder mill hearing if you're up for termination. We had people that. I think there's people in our group that didn't even check that box and didn't even try for it because they go, it's A sham. It was absolutely apparent that this was a sham.

[Mike]

How long did it actually take, the zoom call?

[John]

I want to say about 30 minutes. It's my guess it was pretty fast.

[Mike]

What do you do after that when they let you go? What's life look like after that?

[John]

Well, I shared with you that my dad was a contractor growing up. And what that gave me was a foundation of skills that I could fall back on. I was framing walls by the time I was 7, and I was setting tile and sweating pipes by the time I was 12. I wasn't doing it as fast as a grown up could, but I was. The walls were where they were supposed to be. They were plumb, they were straight. The tile was straight. It was done correct. So I had a career of those skills that I could turn to. To feed and provide for my family. And so we did. I had a fair amount of tools. We still had to invest in a lot that we didn't have. Professional grade stuff and a box trailer to be able to put them in, to be able to drive around to people's homes and do small remodels, bathrooms, kitchens, that sort of stuff. And that's what we do. I do. I do. My wife runs the back end. She does all the books and makes sure we stay up to date on taxes and certifications and those licensures and that kind of stuff. And I'm very, very thankful for her for that. And that's what we do.

[Mike]

Did you stay in contact with anybody who stayed on the fire department?

[John]

I'm still in contact with a number of people.

[Mike]

I'm just curious about the morale during that time period. Especially when they're exiting 70 people.

[John]

The morale has never been lost. We had one of the. One of the biggest, saddest times in the history of the Seattle Fire Department was. You may have heard of this. In 1995, the Pang warehouse fire. Four people died. Four firefighters died in that P A N G. Pang. Pang, correct. It turned out to be it was an arson fire. The son, Martin Pang, lit the building on fire, hoping to collect on insurance. And it was a giant warehouse in the middle, right in the heart of downtown. And it burned big and bad. And four firemen died talking to a couple of people that were in the department because that was five years before I was hired, being hired in 2000, the department is. And the people that were lost were quite beloved people. They were highly regarded people. And one of the things that. That he said, he worked at that station, he said the morale is worse now than it was after the Pang fire when we lost the four. And it's just. It's been terrible. The morale in the department's been on a nosedive for. I was fired three and a half years ago. It would. It had been in a nose dive for. For two, three years prior to that.

[Mike]

Well, how long after you were fired? Because I know that you're in the middle of litigation with them now. Yes. When did the spark or the idea come for that? Because it's more than just you.

[John]

Correct. There's now 36 of us that are in active litigation against the City of Seattle Fire Department, and we have named some. The fire chief personally as well as the HR people have also been named personally. And so far, the courts have seen fit to leave them on the lawsuit, which is good.

[Mike]

How does that process even begin? I mean, somebody obviously has to have the idea for it, but the idea, I mean, is that essentially a class action lawsuit. Is that enough people?

[John]

It is. Great question. It is not a. No, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't play one on tv, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night. So there is a difference, a careful difference, between a class action and what ours is, which is called a mass tort. A class action is, let's pretend that everybody that owns that Ford puts out a bad batch of Explorers and a whole bunch of them blow up their engine. Everybody's. The damage to everybody is reasonably equal. They all get a new engine. Now, the guy who's on vacation four states away is different than the person who blew up in the driveway. But for the most part, everybody gets a new engine. And that's pretty much. That's where class actions come in handy. A mass tort is we're all suing individually because the person who had four years in the fire department has a whole lot more damage done to their career, their future earnings, their pension value than the person who is going to retire six months from then. Does that make sense?

[Mike]

Yeah. But don't they both lose their pension, though?

[John]

No. In the state of Washington, we own the pension. Oh. We pay into it. The city pays into it, or the municipality that you work for, and then the state pays a little bit.

[Mike]

Okay. So when you were terminated, you lost your job, but you didn't necessarily lose your retirement benefits.

[John]

Correct. However, my retirement benefits were dramatically impacted.

[Mike]

Due to shortening the time period between working and receiving them.

[John]

Yeah, well, for the first, I was terminated at 47. I could not collect anything until 15.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

I'm now 50. And a half. But even collecting at 50, I'm being punished for drawing my pension early.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

But my wife and I, we went through the numbers, we looked at it, we said, it's. This is the damage it's gonna, but frankly, we need it to be able to simply survive.

[Mike]

Did you even have the opportunity, if you wanted to, to delay until you were 50?

[John]

We had to, because.

[Mike]

Meaning, could you have waited to draw from your pension and then not be penalized?

[John]

Correct. I could have waited until 53 and not be penalized until 53. Sorry, I wasn't clear. You can draw at 53 without a penalty. You can draw at 50, but you get penalized for it. But you. The only way you can draw before 50 is if you have some form of a disability penalty or disability determination. If somebody gets injured in the line of duty and they can't be a firefighter anymore. And that includes some pts. I have friends that have been fighting and dealing with the PTS challenge.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's real, for sure.

[John]

It is very real.

[Mike]

Okay, so everybody is suing individually. Correct. Bringing it together in a tort. That is interesting. I know almost nothing about the law. This conversation reminds me of that.

[John]

Okay, well, one of the things that's interesting is let's say that just for sake of conversation, you and I are both on this lawsuit together as individuals, and they come to you and they say, hey, Andy, we want to settle. Will you take this amount? And you go, you know what? That's enough for me to pop smoke and say, I can put this in my rearview mirror and never think about it again. But you settling, if I say no, I want to go to court, I'm not okay with that. It doesn't affect one, doesn't affect the other. So you can take your. They would approach you individually or each of us. If they choose to do this, then to my knowledge, they haven't approached anybody, and we talk amongst ourselves a lot. So if they were to do that now, this is. Again, this is my understanding of how it works. So that allows different people the freedom and the flexibility, depending on how their lives have moved on and what their individual needs are, what would be the.

[Mike]

Best case scenario outcome of this?

[John]

The best case scenario for me is I want to go to court and I want them to get spanked. Because what we're talking about is quite arguably the greatest civil rights violation in a. A lot of decades. Because you had people that said no. For my religious beliefs, this says no, and you violated that. And it's not a viola. It's not something that says, hey, my religious beliefs. It'd be one thing if it says, hey, say that your religion, a hypothetical religion, you have to have a really, really long beard. And so you wear a really long beard. But the standard is you can't wear a really long beard with those. With those. The face pieces and create a proper seal. You wouldn't be eligible to even become a firefighter because of that. And that's a hypothetical. Right. So this was something that was changed midway through the game. This wasn't part of our are circumstances of conditions of hire. It's also a public employer. And so the standards for discrimination, prevention of discrimination are way, way higher that public employers have to meet. So the idea. And we have a number of really important court cases that have been decided. So you have legislated law that's passed by lawmakers, and then you have what's called case law, when judges make a ruling on something. Because with our separation or with our checks and balances, you've got your executive branch, your legislative branch, and your judicial branch. The judicial branch interprets it. So a couple years ago in Groff v. Dejoy at the Supreme Court, there was a postal carrier who got a job as a postal carrier because he wanted to observe Sundays and not work on Sundays. So he got a job as a postal carrier because they don't deliver the mail on Sundays. Easy. He gets to practice his faith and never has to worry about being scheduled to work on a Sunday. Great. Well, then that post office picked up an Amazon contract, so now they got to deliver on Sunday.

[Mike]

Is that what those fuckers are doing out there on Sundays? I see those in our neighborhood and I can't figure out what they're doing.

[John]

It's Sundays or it's Amazon. So they pick up an Amazon contract. And he started out by saying, hey, can I just do shift trades with people? And I work on, you know, they don't want to work on Saturday, but they'll work on Sunday. I'll work there Saturday. They work my Sunday. And they were like, okay, that's fine. And after a while, he, I think this is the nuances, but the nuances aren't important. But the ruling is. He even changed to a different post office that didn't have an Amazon contract. And then that post office picked up an Amazon contract and he ended up suing. And the Supreme Court ruled, going back to a Hardin decision, which I think was 70s or 80s against TWA, about what constitutes a hardship for the employer to be able to accommodate people's either religious or medical exemptions. And so they clarified the Harden decision, which was actually, hey, it's been. Hardin has been improperly interpreted for a while or been improperly applied. So we're going to clarify how it needs to be applied. And that was a giant win for us. Now, I can't tell you the legal nuances of why that was such a great win for us sitting here at this table. Because I'm not a lawyer. But when our lawyers say, oh, no, because this verbiage, that thing, this, that and the other thing that was really.

[Mike]

Good, I'm sure it sets a precedence of some kind that they can argue on your behalf or in your favor.

[John]

Yes. I think it has to do with what presents a hardship to the organization. And one of the things in a number of these court cases has been, then you've got the hardship standard, or they have to prove that it's a hardship, but then they're required to do the least restrictive reaction. Now that least restrictive reaction is, you know what? We could have put you on leave without pay. That would have been less restrictive because you still would have been an employee. You still would have had a job. You just. You're on leave without pay. That's less restrictive.

[Mike]

Or they could let you just mask and test.

[John]

Or they could.

[Mike]

Could.

[John]

I was working my way.

[Mike]

Even less restrictive.

[John]

Even less restrictive. They could put us on leave with pay. Less restrictive mask and test. Less restrictive. We had.

[Mike]

And you're still on the job doing your job.

[John]

Correct. We had people that, I think put it in writing that they would be willing to provide and pay for their own mask and testing supplies. We also have it. We've done some digging, and with. I want to be very. I want to be careful to where we protect our legal strategy. We know there was money left. They didn't spend it all. So for them to claim that we don't have the money for the masks.

[Mike]

Federal money for that stuff specifically.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You ever googled how much of that money went missing?

[John]

I haven't, but I probably go mad. Like, I probably get very, very angry.

[Mike]

There's more, I think more for individuals. What do they call it? The PPP money?

[John]

Something like that.

[Mike]

Michael?

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Do a quick Google of the old Billions of dollars in PPP money they cannot account for. I don't even know what term I would use.

[John]

Are those the COVID checks that everybody supposedly got? Is that what that was? Or is that the payroll protection?

[Mike]

That's the payroll protection.

[John]

So that was the businesses that got payouts. So that they could keep, supposedly. And this is a question, is this the money that.

[Mike]

I wasn't a business owner at the time, so I'm not necessarily. I'm over my skis a little bit on direct knowledge, but it was money that.

[John]

Oh, that makes it more fun to talk about.

[Mike]

Yeah, I try to be careful with that sometimes. I believe it's money that businesses were paid to care for their employees and to basically keep the ecosystem on life support. So we could probably make our way out of the pandemic.

[John]

Right. Okay.

[Mike]

And there were ways you could increase number of employees. You know what I mean? What have you found, Michael?

[John]

This is like a Google AI summary.

[Mike]

I don't know how helpful it's going to be. I mean, it has the term AI in it. It has to be correct.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Can you make. There you go.

[John]

Payroll protection plan. Okay. Paycheck protection. Yeah.

[Mike]

Unaccounted for. Ppp. Yeah. Paycheck protection problem funds can be referred to money that was either fairly obtained as misspent or not properly accounted for. Yeah, but how much?

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

Oh. The U.S. small Business Administration estimates that a substantial percentage of PPP funds were dispersed to potentially fraudulent actors. Yes. Yes. Michael, hit enter on that.

[John]

That.

[Mike]

200 billion.

[John]

That's a lot. When it would take five to rebuild Hawaii.

[Mike]

Is that the number?

[John]

That's what I thought. I remember like when Tulsi Gabbard was on Joe Rogan's show. I think that I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was the number and that that was where I heard the number get thrown out. That there was like the estimate, the early estimate was like it would take 5 billion to rebate, build all of the wildfire, the homes that were ruined in the wildfires in Hawaii. That's what this is saying, is 5.5, bill.

[Mike]

Yeah. So Small Business association inspector general estimates 64 billion in fraud from Triple P. Scroll down a little bit, Michael. Other reports indicate total amount of relief fronts could be higher with one estimate at 200 billion. Data analytics to identity fraud schemes. The OIG Office of Inspector General stated that the rush to disperse funds made it easier for fraudulent or fraudsters to apply for loans. I agree with that. God, what a balance between trying to get money to people who needed it and knowing. I don't think that. That there's no way they couldn't have realized that that was happening. Whether or not they cared could probably be the more interesting conversation.

[John]

Yes. Yes. But it's. When you, when you do something that fast, the vetting process goes right out the window because you're doing it. It's. It's essentially it's emergency.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

And that's, you know, it's kind of funny. It's. It gets back to. You can't have. In emergency operations, you can't have effectiveness and efficiency for emergency operations. You just can't.

[Mike]

In one instance, the SBA failed to complete the review process for 37,938 PPP loans flagged with a hold code of 70, which probably means pay the fuck attention. In parentheses, it doesn't say that. It says potential clawback.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

Totaling approximately 4.6 billion.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So nearly 40,000 with a code telling them to hold. And somebody said, I have a better idea. Send those checks.

[John]

Right. Wow.

[Mike]

Damn. I have heard, I mean, there's wild stories of people who during COVID found their first Lambo.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You know.

[John]

Yes, exactly. Funny. Funny how that worked so that somebody.

[Mike]

Has to pay for all of that at some point.

[John]

That's you and me, taxpayers. So.

[Mike]

Oh. Loans were forgivable if businesses met certain criteria such as using at least 60% of the funds for payroll costs. Yeah. And that's the thing. They were passing it through to ensure because many businesses hard shutdown.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

People instantly no payroll check. So that I understand the desire for that man.

[John]

Yeah. So that's a of matter. And what's it going to take to. You know, I mean, we've had three pretty big natural disasters in, you know, on American soil in the last few years because you got the Hawaii wildfires, you've got Appalachia and all the damage that happened there with the hurricane and the fallout from that. And then we've recently got the wildfires that.

[Mike]

Palisades.

[John]

Yeah, the Palisades that Jim Braba talked about.

[Mike]

Yeah. I feel like they still had money left for your masks and testing.

[John]

They probably did.

[Mike]

Point being.

[John]

Point being.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah. So that was our thing was hey, we'll mask, we'll test, we'll do that. That and no. So. Yeah.

[Mike]

Are you aware of other lawsuits like this?

[John]

Yes, there are. I'm glad you asked because I need to make sure I remember to include them. There are. Our lawyer is representing a couple of people, a number of other agencies. So in. In just that our lawyer is representing. We've got Washington State Department of Transportation, we've got Department of Fish and Wildlife that actually just settled in mediation. We got.

[Mike]

How far along were they Courthouse steps. So right before.

[John]

Yep. Trial was supposed to get begin like on Monday and they. Friday or Monday was when trial supposed to Begin. And they settled on Thursday.

[Mike]

I'm sure just incidental timing.

[John]

Yep.

[Mike]

Could have happened at any time.

[John]

It's just happened. Here's the thing that you have in our case. The bad guys have to believe that we're ready to go the distance. And if they think that they can keep us from going the distance, they're going to play that game.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

So when you. Who else? We are University of Washington Medical center, the Department of Youth. Dcyf, Department of Corrections and Youth. I forget what the F is, but.

[Mike]

These are all in Washington.

[John]

These are all in Washington.

[Mike]

How about nationally? Are you aware of other things like this happening?

[John]

Are. But I don't. I think New York has some. Yeah, we are following. We're not so much following cases. We have a couple of people that have more time on their hands and so they are, they're sort of feeding us information. They're tracking these things. And what we'll hear about is, we'll hear about court cases that, that either were settled or, or were a decision was rendered inside a court. There was a lady who worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield back in Michigan, I believe it was, that just got 12 million on her wrongful termination for this same basic argument. Bay Area Rapid Transit employees, they, I think they went to court. They prevailed. They got a number. Forget what their number was. So it's predominantly in cities that are heavily influenced by left of center politics. How's that for a respectful way of saying it?

[Mike]

I mean that's. Well, it's not only respectful, but I think it's accurate.

[John]

Well, I, I want to be accurate and I'm trying to be respectful. I'm, I'm, I'm not going to lie about it. I'm not going to misrepresent something willfully.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

So it's, it's predominantly in those, in those areas and that's what we're seeing. So there's a bunch in Washington, but those are the ones that I'm intimately aware of because either our lawyers is representing them. There was a. Called it the Bacon case because the, the, the lead plaintiff's last name was Bacon. That's a cool, cool last name.

[Mike]

Memorable at least.

[John]

Yes, very memorable.

[Mike]

I don't think that would be a cool last name growing up.

[John]

Probably not.

[Mike]

Maybe later in life.

[John]

Maybe later in life. It's Meat candy.

[Mike]

Bacon v. United States would be dope.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

But you know.

[John]

Yeah. Yeah. This one was Bacon v. Spokane, City of Spokane.

[Mike]

That's not bad.

[John]

No, that's not bad. That's not bad.

[Mike]

Probably Sucks as a seventh grade.

[John]

Yes, it probably does. But their case got tossed by a judge. They appealed up to the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. The ninth Circuit Court of Appeals sent a ruling, sent it back, said, no, you will try it. And not only will you try it, you will try it with these parameters. And the way that they laid it out, according to our lawyer, or let me rephrase that, according to my understanding of what our lawyer said, it's basically like a spanking ranking to the judge that tossed it out, like, yeah, you messed this up bad.

[Mike]

Yeah, I'm not a lawyer either. I don't understand a lot of the judicial system, but I have heard from many lawyers that one thing that judges don't like are appeals that don't go in their favor. It's essentially their scoreboard, their record.

[John]

Correct. They're being told that they're wrong and that they ruled on the law incorrectly. And so what we're finding now, here's the interesting thing. In the beginning, we had. We filed an injunction trying to block the mandates at the very beginning. And that was done in state court, and that didn't go very well. A lot of the cases that were filed early on, when mandates were first starting being announced and pushed, were, again, I'm not a lawyer. Facial challenges, which is saying, you can't do X, you can't do this. Well, then there's the as applied challenges. Facial challenge. As applied. The as applied is we're not arguing whether or not you can do it. We're arguing that you did it incorrectly, which opens the door for other things from a layperson. It allows them to the plaintiffs to say, yeah, your rules say that we have to have an interactive process. We didn't have one. Your rules, Washington, it's codified. You cannot fire a firefighter. Not for cause. There has to be a for cause reason to fire them. And then we have it in writing from them that we were not fired for cause.

[Mike]

Okay, this is gonna be very messy.

[John]

It is. But right now, we have a court date set for February 2 of 26. One of the challenges that we are facing, the single biggest challenge is we are on a pay as we go basis because the lawyer, the big law firms wouldn't touch these cases. So it's the small law firms. Early on in the process, our lawyer sent his paralegal to a conference in Atlanta that was a legal conference for people dealing with this Covid related litigation. And one of the early key speakers went up and to drive the point home about why everybody's here network use one another. They went down. How many of you work for a law firm with 500 people, no hands? How many people work for a law firm with 200 people, no hands? And they went all the way down. And there was a handful of people that worked for law firms that had 20, 25 people.

[Mike]

Why are the big ones avoiding it?

[John]

I don't know.

[Mike]

It's interesting that they are all avoiding it.

[John]

Yes. One of the things I've been told is that oftentimes with some of these great big landmark big things is that you'll find a little attorney that's just scrappy, that'll take it on and just getting their ass kicked. And right about the time they get to the five yard line, great big super mega law firm will swoop in and push it across the goal line and then take all the credit. I don't know if that's the case to my. Our lawyer has said we are actively soliciting for help. I'll listen to anybody. I want help. We're trying because he's swamped. He's buried. Yeah, he's buried.

[Mike]

Is he only focusing on these type of issues now?

[John]

I think he's got other cases, but he's got to keep the lights on.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

And, and, and so, but he's buried. We, we get, every two weeks we get a, a zoom call with him. I guess we flipped over to teams, but essentially a zoom call with him on Saturday mornings. And I try to take notes for my team, for my group and push them out and so forth. And he usually looks pretty tired.

[Mike]

Is it just a waiting game for you guys at this point? You're just letting the process play itself out.

[John]

Us as the plaintiffs. Yeah. We got to kind of let it play out. And as firemen, we are terrible at this waiting thing. If there's not an emergency, we'll create one. One. We're just bad at that.

[Mike]

I don't know if that's a good strategy long term.

[John]

It's not, not in this case. So we're not trying to create emergencies, but what we are trying to do is trying to communicate with one another. Stay tight as a community because we've got one of our members that is living in a Terry travel trailer with three little kids because he's had to start his career all over again in Virginia as a firefighter. You know, my wife and I, we lost almost everything material. Almost everything.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Now the non material stuff is this. Look, my faith walk is strong, my marriage is good, my relationship with my kids. Is good. That's the stuff that really matters. That's. Those are good. But when you're on a pay as you go program and most of us have been financially decimated, we don't have a lot of money.

[Mike]

Money, yeah.

[John]

One of the things that we have done, if you'll permit me, we are. We've started a nonprofit. We filed for a nonprofit in the state of Washington. We are. We have submitted paperwork for tax exempt status with the IRS that. That they do batch processing. We didn't learn about this until we submitted it. We. I don't if they started our batch, if that window's open. It's just in the last couple of days that may not have even opened for batch process. So we're awaiting a decision on the 501C3 or the tax exempt status. But we've started a website which offers some profiles and some photos so people can see who we are, what's going on. It is called seattlefired.com and if people want. In this time where everybody's. This time of the world, everybody's holding their hand out looking for a donation. But if somebody feels that they want to donate, we would love and be very appreciative of any donations. They are going to go. The donations are going to go to the legal expenses. And if, when this whole issue is settled and done, if there's a surplus, the money, it's already in our formation documents, that any money is left over will be put to another group that's similar to us. And it's important.

[Mike]

Important.

[John]

It's important to me because right now my name's on some of the formation documents that we're really, really clear. Yeah, we're fighting for us, but we're also fighting for everybody. Because this is a civil rights issue. This is not limited to a bunch of firemen got fired because they didn't want a Covid shot. No, this is a civil rights issue. A government agency stepped in and said, no, we don't recognize your sincerely held belief, and we're going to compel you to do something that violates your sincerely held belief.

[Mike]

Yeah, it was a wild time.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I mean, I want people to live their life however they want to, 100%. I do my best not to judge the decisions that they make. I watched some people sprinting towards what I would consider to be a very unknown finish line as fast as humanly possible.

[John]

Are you referring to the shots themselves? To taking the shots?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

And I know that fear impacts people in different ways.

[John]

Yes, very much.

[Mike]

And people are in different situations. I mean, up here was as far as it could go. I mean, a great place to weather it. I mean, it's less disparate, you know what I mean? Lower population, all of those things. But I also watch people shelve one of the most important characteristics I think human peoples have, which is common sense on a lot of issues. Because they were scared, right? And I know people who have taken every fucking vaccine known to man, Covid related and are probably in line for their 18th booster right now, and they're fine. But I also do know people who have had very adverse issues too as well. I've had one specifically earlier on myocarditis. He had an issue with his heart. Completely healthy individual beforehand. Only one thing really changed in his life. Like both of those categories absolutely exist. Yes, people made the choices that they need to make. But it was a fascinating time to see how fear impacts people's decision making process. And there were a lot of people who said that they devoutly believed one thing, and I'm not talking at this point about a religious exemption, just what they believe to be as a person. And they crumbled.

[John]

Yep. 100%. Well, on that, kind of building on that, because I think you're 100% accurate with that. That for me, just as a reminder to make sure that that for me, the first and foremost issue, this was a hard pass. We can sit here and debate and talk about were these safe, were these not safe, the, the adverse effects and all of the fallout from that. And I'm happy to engage in that conversation. But for me, it was a hard no from the beginning, safe or not, because of how they were manufactured, how they were developed, period. End of story. That's that with the. I have people that I know that are, you know, first circle of friends, right. The, the smallest circle is, you know, our spouse, our kids, maybe our parents are our siblings. And then you get a little bit out and you get the people that those are, those are your friends and people that you know and then another ring or two out near your Facebook friends, right. That you really aren't friends with them, but you saw them at a party once. I got people in my first two circles, one of them died. Now they didn't have. They don't share my theology, that's fine. I don't. One of the cruxes of my theology is freedom of choice. You choose what's good for you. I'm choosing. This is not, not. This is not okay for me. So I have a Feeling that when we get into the depositions, we're going to be hammered on that by the opposing council. They're going to. They're saying that they want to interview all of us.

[Mike]

About the depth of your beliefs.

[John]

Correct. The depth of our belief. And the hard part is, is that, dude, I lost my career over my belief. I lost my ability to provide for my family over my belief. I don't know if there's much. Not too many steps are more significant than that.

[Mike]

Those interviews actually, I think will favor the people they're interviewing far more than the interviewer. Because if the people that you're in this lawsuit with believe what they say they believe for the reasons that they did, it's not that hard to articulate.

[John]

I agree.

[Mike]

And you can sit there and you can try to poke hole like I know what my core beliefs are and people can try to poke holes in them all day long. And I'll tell my guess. People. You know, it's like half of what social media is, is asking people you don't know questions you don't actually care about.

[John]

Half, maybe. How about seven eights?

[Mike]

No, but I mean, people. People try to gauge the. The depth and fervor of my beliefs all the time. And I don't care what angle they come from. My answer is not going to change.

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

Because I'm not. I don't have this fabricated story in my mind that I have to bounce. Okay, well, they're asking you from a slightly different way. So what is my answer? And like, no, this is what I believe.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

Like that interview is actually. That's not gonna be hard for you guys.

[John]

Yeah, I. Depositions are. I've never been a part of one. I've never been deposed before, so I don't know what I'm talking about. From experience, I've observed some mediation.

[Mike]

But when would that likely happen for you?

[John]

Obviously before Feb. Technically, those were supposed to have begun last week.

[Mike]

Oh, you're not going to court in February of 26 at least, right?

[John]

Yes, they were technically supposed to. We have people in our group that were that their schedule, they were scheduled for last week. And because the law firm, the city has hired outside counsel, they hired a big shot law firm that I believe is headquartered out of Chicago. And they are saying that they want to depose all of us. All right, fine. We gave them schedules. They put us a live matrix out where we could update. Hey, this is our availability. We all submitted it. And now right now we are in a giant measuring contest about who's Going to have. If we have submitted what they have asked for in discovery. That's the word I'm thinking for in discovery. And they are not. Our lawyers are telling us that they are not supplying what they are asking for in discovery, what our lawyers are asking for from them. There's a little bit of a sticking contest. They seem to think that they should have access to a particular messaging app that we have. But. But our attorney is on that. So I don't see how they're going to get that because that's attorney client privileged information.

[Mike]

Yeah, that is so far out of the depth of my knowledge.

[John]

I don't know. I mean, yeah, I don't see how they're going to get it.

[Mike]

So when you say, you know, best case scenario, the city gets spanked, what does that look like? They write checks.

[John]

Checks. Because that's how they're going to feel the pain. And that's. And they're going to be told that you can't do this again. This is not okay. You don't get to violate civil rights.

[Mike]

So checks. And you want them to change policy.

[John]

Yeah, that would be, that would be the perfect thing.

[Mike]

What if they made you choose between the two?

[John]

It's a good question. I'd have to see. I don't, I don't know if I'm, I don't have enough information out to offer that answer because we've been, we've been damaged. Now the thing is, is that choosing between the two is if somebody offers a pretrial settlement. Settlement, because pretrial settlement is not going to change policy, that's likely what's going to happen.

[Mike]

Well, again, depth of my legal knowledge have exceeded. Couldn't you make it a contingency of the settlement?

[John]

It could.

[Mike]

I feel like in suits they did that.

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

Which is where the vast majority of my legal.

[John]

Absolutely. And that is the thing is my understanding is that because it's a negotiation, I think that they can can say, you know, I think it's possible. I think it's possible. The. It's theoretically possible. Will it happen? I don't know. You know, so we have a number of people that have requested to be reinstated and go back. We have a few people that have said no.

[Mike]

What do they say to the request to be reinstated or. That's what they want their outcome to be.

[John]

The people that want reinstatement, they, they do want. Part of what they want is they want the back pay and to be made whole from what they've been missing.

[Mike]

And they want their career and they.

[John]

Want their career back. Yes, correct. They want their occupation, their career back. And that's important.

[Mike]

What has the city said to that?

[John]

The city has been largely silent. There have been a couple of peeps, months and months. And right about a year ago. It's been that many months. Right about a year ago, there was some peeps about, okay, yeah, maybe we'll take you back, but we'll hire you back and you'll go through the academy all over again.

[Mike]

I'm sure the instructors would love that.

[John]

Especially since I taught some of the instructors. That's what I'm saying.

[Mike]

I'm sure that would be great.

[John]

Right. So it's like, okay, now we've had people in that group. We have had people and four just protecting stuff. I'm not going to tell you which group I'm in. There are people in the groups that have said, hey, I will submit to a skill evaluation and if I don't meet basic, certain basic skills that you would be expected to learn and be proficient at in the academy, then absolutely, I'll submit to going back to the academy. But if I can demonstrate that I have those skills that you would be expected to be proficient in coming out of the academy. No, you're not sending me back to the academy.

[Mike]

Yep.

[John]

So, yeah, those are the. It's kind of muddy. And some people have been, you know, what you have is you have the right hand not talking to the left hand because you have some people. Some. There have been some communications coming back and forth without this between people. And it's like, wait, one group says, hey, talk to my attorney. Talk to our attorneys. And yet somebody else in that same organization says, yeah, here's a document says you're. You can come back. Back H. Or will will allow that. That you've been allowed. It's been signed by people with enough horsepower that the document's valid.

[Mike]

Yeah. This is going to continue to be messy.

[John]

It's going to get messy. I. I think judging how things are sitting right now, I think you're correct. I'd be surprised if we. If we're in court, in fact, February, I'd be very surprised because the depositions, even if we had started last week, they were going to take bloody all summer long.

[Mike]

Yeah. Say it goes in your favor. What would you do with the rest of your life?

[John]

I'd have to see what that looks like. Do I go back and am I back to being a firefighter driving Ladder Company 5 in City of Seattle?

[Mike]

Would you want to.

[John]

I didn't want to leave.

[Mike]

Not wanting to leave and having a desire to go back are two different things, though.

[John]

You're right.

[Mike]

Especially if the leadership above you doesn't change.

[John]

You're very right. So let's say again, I've got to be. I want to be careful how I answer this question. Yeah, of course, the conditions would have to be very specific, and I don't think it would be wise. I don't think my. I think the lawyer would say, don't say too much right now on that. I love the question, and I will happily talk to you.

[Mike]

Oh, no, I'm just talking conceptually. Do you want to move past being a firefighter if the economics are handled for you, or would you want to go back? I'm just talking about, in general, your desire to continue being a firefighter, not necessarily for city of Seattle.

[John]

Great question. When we moved to Boise, the surrounding Boise area, we're not in Boise proper.

[Mike]

People would appreciate how you say it.

[John]

With a soft S. Boise.

[Mike]

Like, it's Boise. It's a soft s. Then yelled at, yeah, Boise.

[John]

It's Boise. I sat with. It was not a formal interview, but I sat with a meeting with one of the local fire chiefs who is good friends with my old captain and a dear friend. And he said in that interview, he says, I don't need people like you. He says, if you are, you come with the recommendations that you come with from your old captain. I'm keeping names private for a reason. He goes, I need you. Your experience, your desire to share what you have, your desire to lead by example. My department needs you.

[Mike]

But is that what you want to do?

[John]

I'd love to be in a fireman. I did. I have to be somewhat coy on this, because I know you're asking direct questions. I'm not trying to be a wanker on it.

[Mike]

I'm just saying, have you considered.

[John]

I mean, I couldn't do it because it didn't pay well enough. That's one of the challenges. They were paying 20 bucks an hour.

[Mike]

I love being a seal.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

I'm thankful every day that I'm away from it.

[John]

Correct. And that.

[Mike]

That's more the question I'm asking.

[John]

It.

[Mike]

Gotta hang it up at some point.

[John]

Correct. I do. I do.

[Mike]

Are you better? And again, this has nothing to do with a lawsuit. This is just conceptually, as a person, are you better hanging it up early and giving yourself that Runway to reinvent yourself?

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

And there's no wrong answers in this either. Or do you. Do you wring the cloth for as long as you can to get every drop out and then reinvent yourself. But it's pros and cons to both.

[John]

Correct. I paid an immense physical price for that job and how I did it. 15 surgeries. Most of them were from the fire department, from injuries I sustained. And there were plenty of injuries I got that I didn't get surgeries for. I'm very much the Six Million Dollar Man. Are you old enough to remember that? That TV show, Lee Major?

[Mike]

I am old enough to remember. Never got into it because Airwolf and Night Rush Rider are superior shows.

[John]

Airwolf is definitely a superior show. It is, absolutely.

[Mike]

Do you know that Michael has no clue what we're talking about?

[John]

Only ever heard of the Six Million Dollar Man.

[Mike]

You haven't?

[John]

No, I have, but I've never seen it.

[Mike]

In your mind, what do you think the show is about?

[John]

Well, going off of context clues. A guy who got a bunch of surgeries or something. He's like bionic, right? Correct.

[Mike]

Pretty close.

[John]

Pretty close. That's really close. He had a bunch of surgeries because he was in a test pilot accident, if I recall correctly.

[Mike]

I don't know.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

American hero of some kind. When he walks, bald eagles sings.

[John]

Yes, exactly. Right, right. So, yeah, that was. That was.

[Mike]

But. But what about Airwolf and Knight Rider?

[John]

I'm pretty sure Knight Rider is about a car. Yes, yes. Probably the first. I was thinking about this the other day. Probably the first rendition of AI.

[Mike]

Interesting. I hadn't thought about that. Potentially. Yeah. An Airwolf. I've talked about it enough, I think. You know what that is?

[John]

Yeah, it's about some kind of helicopter, Right?

[Mike]

Not some kind of kind.

[John]

It's the coolest helicopter ever. Followed. Followed by the helicopter in Blue Thunder.

[Mike]

Yeah. That show didn't take off as well, though.

[John]

No, didn't.

[Mike]

God, the glory days.

[John]

Apparently, Jan. Michael Vincent was. I thought I saw like a documentary on his. The guy that was the lead actor.

[Mike]

In Airwolf was Stringfellow Hawk, if you will.

[John]

Yeah, Stringfellow Hawk, that was. He had a horrible battle with alcohol and was frequently drunk while they were filming. Filming.

[Mike]

I wouldn't be surprised. I heard that he could snort a line the size of this table of cocaine.

[John]

Oh, well, that was the 80s, so I would. Yeah, I bet that too. Yeah.

[Mike]

I heard he was a fan of the Colombian marching powder.

[John]

Okay. The booger sugar.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, he. I'm pretty sure he. That one up. Probably the show was going well.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

Yeah, kind of. Hey, again, I'm not gonna Tell people how to live their life. Pros and cons of the choices you want to make.

[John]

But I absolutely love that helicopter. That thing was which just.

[Mike]

Yep. It crashed in Germany.

[John]

Did it?

[Mike]

The actual helicopter they used for that show, they put it back into service. Crashed in Germany.

[John]

No kidding.

[Mike]

That's how much time I have spent researching this on the Internet.

[John]

No kidding, is it? When it crashed in Germany, it was like, crash. Like, it's done. Game over. You don't get to put it back together again. Correct. Okay.

[Mike]

I think it was actually fatal.

[John]

Oh, okay. It was a full auger. Yeah. Water.

[Mike]

It watered up pretty good.

[John]

What was the helicopter model that they started with To.

[Mike]

To. Oh, it was a. Michael, you're going to have to Google this. It was a bell. A bell. Song, something.

[John]

It's not that dolphin one, is it?

[Mike]

That's for which Airwolf put in. What type of helicopter was Airwolf? It's a bell. I want to say like two of two.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

It was. They had different versions of it.

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

Like when the guns would be out.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

There was one that only flew with it like that because they couldn't figure out how to movement out. Okay.

[John]

All right. All right.

[Mike]

But I'm pretty sure it was based on a bell.

[John]

222. 222.

[Mike]

I was missing one of the twos.

[John]

Whatever. God. Michael.

[Mike]

Doing my best.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Legit helicopter.

[John]

Yeah. Okay.

[Mike]

Yeah, it was. That was like the old school, rich and famous, you know, VIP transport.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

Stuff. Yeah.

[John]

All right. Very cool.

[Mike]

So how do we start talking about Airwolf?

[John]

I don't know.

[Mike]

And for everybody out there who hears this, I'm aware that it's on Roku because I've talked about this before. My DMs were flooded. Thank you. I'm watching it again. I appreciate that. I don't need to hear any more that it's on Roku.

[John]

Okay. Very cool. Yes. Yes.

[Mike]

I found the solution. I took your advice and have been watching it on Roku. Let me tell you who thinks this show sucks. My wife.

[John]

Okay. Has she. Has you. Have you watched Gone Back to watch the old Star Blazers cartoons?

[Mike]

No.

[John]

Okay. So I remember how we got on this. We were talking about the TV show.

[Mike]

Six Million Dollar Man.

[John]

Six Million Dollar Man.

[Mike]

Because you are the six million dollar.

[John]

Kind of. I just. I've been put back together a lot.

[Mike]

Yeah, no, I was asking. I was asking you existentially. Not necessarily tied to this. At some point in time, you will have to hang it up 100%. Do you think you'll do general contracting afterwards. Or what do you think it will look like when that point comes?

[John]

I hope not. I mean, I'm good at it. I do. I care a lot about it. But when it's time to retire, I hope to be able to retire and go enjoy my life.

[Mike]

What would that look like?

[John]

Well, my wife and I have been talking about places we'd like to travel to.

[Mike]

What's on the list?

[John]

She's Norwegian, like very Norwegian. And we want to go see Norway. I've never been. She's been. She was raised by. Her parents were missionaries and so she's lived in Seattle, is home based, but she's lived in Minnesota for boarding school. She's lived in Norway, she's lived in Japan. She's much more of a world traveler than I've been. And so we're looking to. We want to. We love the mountains, so we would love to do both a summertime and a wintertime driving trip, hitting some of the mountain things. Yesterday we drove up to Whitefish and.

[Mike]

GNP a little bit. Glacier National Park.

[John]

We missed GNP because I was a moron and didn't realize you needed reservations.

[Mike]

Yeah, the Internet has answers to a lot of life's questions.

[John]

I didn't think to ask the question, do you need reservations to go into a national park? And it's funny because you know what?

[Mike]

Change that Covid. That's when that started.

[John]

No kidding.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

What I, I did hear when I learned it, it was like, oh, that's right. Mike told me that. And it was one of those things went in the air, went right out the other. And I never thought about it until. Oh, crap. That's right. Mike said that in that conversation.

[Mike]

But do you guys want to travel internationally other than Norway?

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

I would recommend if you have places on your bucket list, the Dolomites and Switzerland.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

This France, Italy, Switzerland region, if you're into mountains, they'll knock your socks off.

[John]

Very cool. Okay. Yes. I gotta withhold who. But for privacy sake. My wife's sister is a very high end athletic coach. Okay. Very high end. And that.

[Mike]

What sport?

[John]

Skiing.

[Mike]

Okay.

[John]

And they, they do a lot of.

[Mike]

That in those regions.

[John]

They do a lot. They do a lot of. So she's seen a lot of those really cool SP base places. Wild. Yes.

[Mike]

You stand there at the base of some of those things and just marvel at how that ever came to be.

[John]

Right?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Well, it's kind of funny. You look at like when you're in Salt Lake City, the city, it's like the city just stops and boom, there's a giant rock. It strikes me that it's just. It's that grand.

[Mike]

I mean, Salt Lake City is not grand.

[John]

No, no. I'm not saying Salt Lake City.

[Mike]

Salt Lake City would be like staring at a homeless man's asshole in comparison to the Dolomites.

[John]

I will take that under heavy advisement.

[Mike]

Thank you.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

Remember that next time you're in Salt Lake City.

[John]

No, I've seen homeless man's backsides.

[Mike]

It's not good then. I'm shocked that you think that Salt Lake City is grant in any way, shape, or form.

[John]

Okay. I was just referring to.

[Mike]

We got to get you out and around the world a little bit here.

[John]

We don't come for money. I haven't had a chance to make those travels, and I don't come from money either. For clarity, understanding, understood. Much to my regret, I had a very inappropriate attitude towards military service when I left high school or college. What do you mean? I'm so ashamed of having this attitude. I really, really am. I had developed the attitude that I didn't want to go to work for somebody that was dumber than me.

[Mike]

There are some dumb people in the military.

[John]

Yes. But I.

[Mike]

Do you know how I know that? Because I headed the battalion.

[John]

I'm still.

[Mike]

But it's like any job, though.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

I've met some real dumb, dumb firefighters.

[John]

For clarity, so have I. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[Mike]

You can't confuse the community for the individuals that make up that community. I mean, I wouldn't feel bad that you felt that way. Did you have any touch points with the military?

[John]

No, not really.

[Mike]

And that's kind of probably the reason why.

[John]

But it's one of my biggest regrets in life. Now. I also know that my life would have.

[Mike]

Regretting that you felt that way or you didn't go down that path.

[John]

Regretting that I didn't go down that path. Path. And also regretting that I felt that way because it was feeling that way that led me to not go down that path. Right. It was. And so I really. I have such a great admiration for people that are. That have done that kind of service. And I understand that people say, yeah, well, you serve to. Yes, but it's different. And I, you know, our. Our sons have heard me say that, you know, since I came into their life, that. That. That's a regret that I had. So, Yeah, I mean, it's.

[Mike]

I wouldn't regret it. You chose a different path. It's just different. It's in a lot of ways first responders. My personal opinion, the job is a little bit of a. It's. I would say it's more difficult because at least the people I know who work in the first responder world, you don't get really to turn it off and also live generally. Even though I have heard some fantastic stories about firefighters that come commute, I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna be real vague about that once.

[John]

Yes, I'm in trouble. Yes.

[Mike]

I think you know what I'm talking about. They don't even live in the state that they work and work. Good for them. Even though I don't know how a 96 hour shift is safe for anyone.

[John]

Yeah. How about 30 days straight again? I've heard that. Yeah. A lot of it. Honestly, it's going to depend. A lot of that's going to depend on how busy is the station that you are assigned at.

[Mike]

Yeah, there's a lot of deviation. I've also heard that as well.

[John]

Correct.

[Mike]

Yeah. But you know, you guys, you don't turn it off like the cops. I know they're cops 24 7. If something happens, they're gonna get involved and it's in the neighborhood that they live in, maybe with one of their repeat customers or somebody that they know peripherally or socially.

[John]

Yep.

[Mike]

You guys are in the same boat anytime I've ever been around. You know, if a firefighter drives by a car accident, guess what they're gonna do? They're gonna stop and help. You're qualified to do so. But you can't really turn it off. My old job, I could turn it off.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

You know, we would clock in.

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

And clock out.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

But it wasn't. And when you were very busy during those time periods and you knew what to expect.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

But you also knew when it was going to end.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

You guys don't know when it's going to end because it doesn't ever.

[John]

It doesn't. It ends when you retire and you ride off into the sunset. Hopefully that's for a.

[Mike]

Cops die at 55 of heart disease.

[John]

Correct? Correct.

[Mike]

Or heart attack less than 10 years after being retired. I don't know what the stats are for firefighters.

[John]

It's probably not much different, but it's not so much. It's not necessarily hard. A lot of it's cancer. Yeah.

[Mike]

I mean, so I don't know how I would. That's not much of a ride into the sunset.

[John]

It's not. It's not. So I came in and some of my personal habits I think are Going to serve me pretty well for longevity because I was pretty fastidious about keeping my gear cleaned clean. There was a lot of guys that prided themselves on how dirty their gear was exterior.

[Mike]

You mean like with the smoke and.

[John]

Yeah, smoke. Products of combustion. They wouldn't wash their gear because they thought it looked cooler. And I would take a shower in the morning and I'd also take a shower every night.

[Mike]

I'm getting. You're giving a little bit. My daughter would say you're giving OCD right now.

[John]

Hey, absolutely.

[Mike]

Yeah. Just a touch. A touch of the ocd.

[John]

Just a touch.

[Mike]

Maybe a touch of the tip. Hard to say. Not a doctor.

[John]

Maybe. Maybe just a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. Nothing wrong with that, right? Richest man in the world, is it? So.

[Mike]

Well, richest man in the world, I think might have weapons grade tism. Not a touch of the tism. To each their own. I'm not judging in any way.

[John]

Shape. Not at all. Yes, absolutely. So, yeah, but that's, that's.

[Mike]

But that stuff does make a difference.

[John]

It does. Long term, it makes a difference. It's. It meant that, you know, when we, if we picked up a fire in the middle of the day, I didn't wait until the next morning to take a shower, come back, get my gear cleaned up. Go get me cleaned up and okay, now I'm ready to go do it again. And I think that that little bit of ocd, that makes sense to me, a little bit of that OCD stuff, I think that's going to pay off. Now. One of the things that is important to me is unfortunately the COVID mess really overshadowed it, but the suicide, and I think it was 2019 and this happens for police officers, but I wasn't one and I don't know the statistics for them. We got told that in, I think it was 2019, that firefighter suicide overtook cancer for on duty cancer and heart attacks for on duty death, Line of duty death. People who were still actively serving took their own life.

[Mike]

What is your best guess as to why that happens?

[John]

There's a lot of stuff that we see that you can't unsee. And there is a. I've had this happen. You're at a social gathering and somebody finds out you're a firefighter. Oh, what's the worst thing you've ever seen?

[Mike]

And aren't those questions fun?

[John]

They're great. You know, it's like walking up to somebody in the military. How many people have you killed? None of your business.

[Mike]

Have you tried this answer? When somebody says that to you, you might want to hold your ears for this. Your wife for the listeners. You did a good job of describing where she was from. I was going to tell you, if you need help, just blink and I'll change the subject.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

Because she is judging you from off.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

Next time they say, what's the worst thing you've ever seen? Talk to the person. Be like, I saw your dad fucking the neighbor.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

You know what I mean? Or, I saw your mom blowing the mailman in the backyard. Have you talked to her about that? Throw back at him.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

This is the way my brain works. I'm not saying it's gonna work well for you.

[John]

What I have found is. Cause I don't want them to feel. I don't want them to get defensive and feel bad, but I want them to understand what. They've just asked what. I have the conclusion that I've. The response I've come up with is, you know what? I spend the rest of my life trying to forget those things. And when I've had that happen, the look on their face is, oh, that was really rude. And then just change the subject to something else.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

You know, so how's your kid doing at baseball? You know, and just kind of let them know that that's just not an okay thing to ask. And one of the things that's happened is because of. I want somebody that has some bravado to do that job. Because we're going into. I mean this with full respect. We're going into combat, but we're going into a combat with an enemy that doesn't have a conscience, that doesn't have a. A soul. It's trying to kill you.

[Mike]

Pyromaniacs would say differently.

[John]

Yes. Right.

[Mike]

They are fascinating people to me.

[John]

They are.

[Mike]

They think it's their, like caged animal.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

That they can control.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Oftentimes it burns them. So I don't know how much control they have.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

And you think that would change their.

[John]

Mind and it doesn't. Yes, correct.

[Mike]

So they're a special breed.

[John]

They are. That's a unique kind of messed up. Yeah, it really is. So. Yeah, that. But the idea is, is I want somebody that's got. That's got some stones. That's, that's, that's. You're going into a physically demanding, emotionally demanding career. But the problem is that is that when you see, when you go through some of those really crummy calls or really crummy situations, it's usually not welcome with the old timers. It's not really welcome to talk it out and talk it through. And it helps to talk about it with people who can and empathize because they've been there, you know, hey, that's really kind of crappy. You know, some of the things that we've seen are. I've had a couple of cases where it's like the call got done. It's like, you know what, I just want to pick up the phone and talk to my kids. You know, I just, hey, I know you got your life going on. I know you're heading out the door to practice. I just want to call you, tell you I love you and I'm thinking about you and have a great day. I'll see you you tomorrow.

[Mike]

I'd be shocked if that wasn't the case.

[John]

So, you know, it's just some of the things you, you, you're doing a search in a home and you find, you find a body and you don't find out. You're. When you're looking, when you're doing the searching, you're told that a 17 year old is missing. I got a 17 year old kid at home. Great. You find the body. Because I found the body. It was burned enough, you could tell, you couldn't tell the age, but it was not burned enough that you could still tell the gender. And you're just going, great. Now we find out later, much later, that it wasn't the kid, it was somebody else. But still, when you're frantically searching, trying to find every nook and cranny, granny, it's stuff like that and those, those things when you go through the difficult calls some people have likened it to, it's a sandwich. And every call you go on is a layer. And that sandwich is a sandwich you get to eat for the rest of your life. And you've got it. What we don't know is nobody knows their limit until after they've hit it. And that's the hard part. Because it's not your, hey, you're a pussy. Because this bothered you? No, it bothered you. Why? Because you care. At the root of. It's because you care.

[Mike]

You don't have to eat the sandwich either. You can take the layers off.

[John]

That was, that was somebody else's analogy.

[Mike]

I get it. Whatever the analogy may be.

[John]

Sure, sure. I'd love to hear what techniques that you've got for you.

[Mike]

Go talk to somebody who specializes in that time of trauma.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Because if firefighters are anything like special operations, dude, they're not experts in how the brain works. And you don't have to be because that's not what you get paid to do. But there are people out there who've made it their life work.

[John]

Correct.

[Mike]

To take layers off of sandwiches or take eyedroppers out of cups before they spill over. Whatever the metaphor may be.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

But the person has to go seek that out.

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

And a lot of it. Culture has a lot to do with that as well.

[John]

Right. And the culture is. Has for a long time was. No, that's weakness.

[Mike]

Well, when people start hanging themselves, hopefully that shifts culture.

[John]

It. Exactly. So.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah. So far I'm. On a personal note. I would really like to go see and get some. See some counseling and see if there's. If I can get some benefit from it. I don't know for. What's that?

[Mike]

What are you waiting for?

[John]

It's expensive.

[Mike]

There are countless organizations out there that would give you counseling for free.

[John]

Really?

[Mike]

Yes. Internet's gonna be your friend on this one.

[John]

And we will look.

[Mike]

People realize the role that first responders pay. I guarantee you you'll be able to find foundations or services that would speak to you as many times as you want for as long as you want for free.

[John]

Interesting.

[Mike]

It's out there.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

I say that based off my experience in the military NGO world.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

Or foundation world. People get it. But it oftentimes you're gonna have to seek it on your own to find it. But I guarantee you it's out there.

[John]

Okay.

[Mike]

I know it exists for law enforcement.

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

So it has to exist.

[John]

I would think if it exists for law enforcement, it probably exists for fire.

[Mike]

It has to. There's no way it doesn't.

[John]

So I appreciate the tip. Thank you. We'll look into that because it would be nice. One of the things that was, you know, when you lose your job, you also lose your health care.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

So we are. We are seeking. We are sourcing our health care on the open market in Idaho as fully self employed. And one, it's expensive and two, it doesn't cover shit.

[Mike]

The episode I released today was about the healthcare system.

[John]

Oh, okay.

[Mike]

With a guy who was in finance for a decade and a half and was looking at it and man, he did a deep dive and he unpacked some stuff about. About just. Why do things cost the way that they do?

[John]

Sure.

[Mike]

Is there any. You know, these organizations are not looking to drive premiums down.

[John]

No.

[Mike]

While at the same time increasing your coverage.

[John]

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right.

[Mike]

No, it's. What was the word that he used? Racketeering. In many ways, sure. And it's fucked because you don't have that many choices. And he was talking about how the Affordable Care act took somewhere between 12 to 14 of these large organizations and now there's four.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

And it may look like there's still a bunch, but they all tear up to the same organizations.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

So, yeah, it's. It's a wild world out there.

[John]

It is. It is. We. We learned that Idaho opted out of Obamacare, which seems like a very Idaho thing to do.

[Mike]

That and growing potatoes.

[John]

Yes, yes, yes. I was telling Michael right before we got started that, you know, I wanted to bring a host gift. And I went, well, a sack of potatoes probably isn't going to be. Have quite the effect.

[Mike]

I would have eaten them.

[John]

I do.

[Mike]

The Devil's Brigade stuff is awesome.

[John]

I. Yeah, I sample. I got a chance to sample that and went, hey, that's darn nice. And that might be appropriate. So I hope that that's.

[Mike]

No, I appreciate it. No gift was expected at all, man.

[John]

Well, I'm appreciative of the opportunity, but, yeah, that's.

[Mike]

What's the best way that listeners can help you guys. I know you mentioned. What was it? It was Seattle Fired.

[John]

Seattle Fired.

[Mike]

You guys fucked that one up. You could have had. It was Sleepless in Seattle, right? You could have had, like, firedinseattle.com you guys. Damn it.

[John]

Well, yeah. Yes, yes.

[Mike]

You could have really churched that one up. You probably could have trended on SEO. I don't know shit about SEO. I know it's a term. I don't know what it means.

[John]

Right, right. Well, we did that, actually. One of our guys took the patch that I brought in. Hold this up. If.

[Mike]

Yep. Right from the yellow. See it?

[John]

There you go. So he colored in the fire. D for fired. And that was the inspiration for coming up with the website. I was a fireman. I wasn't a tech guy. I was the one that came up with Seattle Fired. I looked on godaddy. Com. It was available.

[Mike]

You got to get it.

[John]

I got it. So we also got.we also got.org. so if somebody goes and one just pushes to the other and what? Yeah, the best way that we could. Nobody. I just told you. I haven't been seeking out mental health help. I'm not real good at asking for help. But here we are, we're all asking for help. And the best way that we could be helped is we are very much fighting David and Goliath or David and Goliath type of a fight, because the city has unlimited, virtually unlimited resources to pay this great big giant, giant firm to try to bury us with procedures and paperworks and motions and this, that and the other thing. We'll go. We're willing to step into that ring and take the punches. But what we need is, we need those five smooth stones. And right now those five smooth stones is financial help. Yeah, we, we're paying as we go. We are into it for over, I think, 300,000. We've, this has been ongoing for.

[Mike]

Two.

[John]

And a half, three and a half years. We got fired and I think we filed two and a half years ago because it took us a while to get things organized and get stuff, kind of get. Everybody had to get their ducks in a row, their eyes dotted, their T's crossed before we could actually put everybody in the same group and then push it forward. So I think it's been, yes, two and a half years. This is what we've been. And the city's, I think, at one and a half million or some crazy number like that with.

[Mike]

Yeah. So I think if you guys can stay the course, you're going to be okay.

[John]

I think if we can say, I, I genuinely believe if we can stay the course, we're going to be okay. The challenge is we got to be able to stay that course.

[Mike]

So, yeah, their strategy is likely going to be to make it the opposite of that, making it easy for you to stay the course.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

But if you can find your way, I mean, if I was reverse engineering this or looking at it from their side, they'd try to get you guys as close to the treetops or into the them financially.

[John]

Yep.

[Mike]

And I mean, as long as you can stay a millimeter above them, I think you guys will be okay.

[John]

That's the hope.

[Mike]

And anybody listening, that's not legal advice because I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

[John]

But no, no personal opinion. And that's the thing, is that there, if there are people that, that feel that they have some money that they'd like to donate, I'm not asking for. We do not expect that other people fund this. But you know what if somebody has a. Has it on their heart that they want to donate, they want to help us out, this isn't going to just help us. This is going to help other people too. We've got. There's a group, there's another group of Spokane, Spokane firefighters. That was the bacon case. There's a group up in Snohomish, all those great Indian names. That's A little bit north of the Snohomish eight. I think they're working hard. Same kind of thing. They have a different lawyer, but, you know, the lawyers are talking to each other to the extent that they can legally. And hey, guys, if we've got. Hey, did you hear about this case? No, we didn't hear about this case. Let's look at that ruling and everybody take a look at this ruling. Does this ruling have benefit for us? Hey, it helps you guys, but it doesn't help us. Okay, great. And they're doing all of that. It's kind of a collective hive mind. And it's pretty amazing because as a group, most firefighters can be crazy resourceful. You get a few of us together and we can out think a lot of problems.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[John]

So. But yeah, that's the biggest help that we could ask at this juncture is if somebody's willing to help donate to help us cover our legal expenses because they're only going to get bigger. We're getting into the deposition stages right now and deposition is expensive.

[Mike]

Yeah. It doesn't sound fun for sure. That sounds gnarly.

[John]

We have just recently there was a development that popped out. We didn't talk about this earlier, but. But we know that there was a lot of people that submitted real vaccination cards that were fraudulently filled out. No.

[Mike]

Well, that would.

[John]

Correct.

[Mike]

Ever think of such a thing?

[John]

Correct. And the city just did a giant investigation and because they commissioned it and the results of the investigation are. Didn't go the way the city was probably thinking, they thought they were going to find some dirt. And what they really found out is that, yeah, the independent investigator that they paid, whatever they paid has determined that it's. Yeah. Pretty likely that there's probably a bunch of people that have fraudulent cards. I mean, I personally was not offered one.

[Mike]

I wouldn't even use the term like pretty likely.

[John]

I've got to be careful.

[Mike]

This is me speaking, probably more than certain that that happened.

[John]

Well, let's put it this way.

[Mike]

How would I know that? I know a ton of people who did the same thing.

[John]

Yes, I know. I didn't go seek one out because.

[Mike]

I never had a need for one. So I never did either.

[John]

Right. I didn't seek one out even though I could have benefited from one. But I didn't seek one out because I didn't think it would work. I genuinely didn't think it would work. So it's like, nah, that's, that's, that's. And I'm. Again, we went. I'VE been over. I'm not going to take the shot. So that was the hard no. So I was like, okay, what are we gonna pivot and do? So I do small remodels and you know, kitchens, bathrooms, decks, that sort of stuff. Yep. Try to keep the customer service really, really high. High level craftsmanship, that sort of stuff.

[Mike]

What's the website for your business?

[John]

We are FreedomContractingservices. Us.

[Mike]

Jesus, man. FCS shorten this up. Thank you.

[John]

FreedomContractingservices websites. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, that's. That's us. So it's. And it's just me. We obviously when, when we, when we're required to. We'll bring in people that are certified in certain trades and skills because we have to. The. But the, the bottom line is I'm not. I'm licensed as a general contractor. Registered, not licensed, ID does it different. I'm registered as a general contractor, but I'm not the guy that picks up the phone and then you're going to see be 25 strangers walking through your house. If you hire me to remodel your bathroom, it's going to be me walking through your house remodeling your bathroom.

[Mike]

It's not a bad way to make a living. My dad grew up in the trades and yes. Yeah, I largely did too. I don't have.

[John]

He was a mason, right?

[Mike]

He was a mason, Yeah. I carried bricks for him. So I had a different optic on the trade. But I can still carry bricks. You know, he can build stuff and.

[John]

You got a hell of a grip too. I'm sure.

[Mike]

I don't know. Michael. How's my grip?

[John]

Pretty weak.

[Mike]

Why did you start shaking your head as soon as I started talking? You didn't know where I was going with that. I assumed. So what do you want to leave people with? We've been at it for about two and a half hours.

[John]

Wow. A lot of gratitude. I appreciate the opportunity to serve people. I loved it. It was. I mean it was my. I got the benefit to do what my life dream was. Right. Which is really cool. Would I like to do it again? Yeah. There's a big part of me that would like. Would love to go back to doing that. You mentioned something. Yeah, it's. It takes a toll on us and there's at some point in time. When. When are you going to hang it up and. And do something different? Like you said, reinvent yourself. It would be nice to be able to do that, you know, when the finances are handled and I don't have to pivot to a different career. The. The juncture here. I don't want people to think that I'm grouchy or complaining about being a contractor. I paid a dear, dear price in my youth to earn those skills and that knowledge in the form of zero social life and completely retarded when it came to interpersonal relationships and skills.

[Mike]

That's just called being a man.

[John]

Well, I was. Yeah. When I was 12 or 13, I could have a conversation with adult because my dad took me to work with him, but I couldn't talk to a girl until I was 24 or 25 also.

[Mike]

That's just called being a man.

[John]

Okay. So. But that was. Yeah, I'm. I'm honored that people will invite me into their home and trust me to do their. To do their work. I'm grateful that I have. I've been prepared for the adversity when I didn't realize I was being prepared for the adversity. Some people call it fate. Some people call it just how the world works. To me, it's based on my faith. So. And I respected the different perspectives. You know, I want everybody to be able to choose what they want to do.

[Mike]

I'm in the same boat. Well, let's get you guys. Enjoy the rest of your Montana day before. You guys. You guys are starting early tomorrow morning, right? Driving back.

[John]

We'll drive early tomorrow morning.

[Mike]

Yeah. You can't. I mean, sun goes down here at like, 10:30 right now.

[John]

Yeah, something like that.

[Mike]

You got a couple hours?

[John]

Got a couple hours. Go do something. Yeah.

[Mike]

All right. Hope she doesn't kill you for anything you said on the podcast.

[John]

I think she's shaking her head no. I think she's going to be okay.

[Mike]

All right.

[John]

So I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you very much.

[Mike]

Oh, my pleasure.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And I'll put the link to the. The website for the donations and for the construction company in the show notes so people. Yeah.

[John]

They can find. I'll email that to you if that's the easiest way for.

[Mike]

It is indeed.

[John]

Does Michael get those or do you know those? No. Okay.

[Mike]

You see those buttons he pushes?

[John]

Yes.

[Mike]

That's about as much as I trust him.

[John]

Doing a really good job.

[Mike]

I remember the other day when you forgot to turn your microphone on. I remember what day that's happened multiple times.

[John]

The day that ended in.

[Mike]

Why I have done Friday episodes by myself.

[John]

Where.

[Mike]

So his screen is looking at the different camera angles. I've had it on a camera that's not on. So I'm sitting Here recording a Friday episode. I've had the camera on and the audio off.

[John]

Right.

[Mike]

What other ways. Every seven ways from Sunday, I messed this thing up. Yeah, we've had some real jury SIM cards failing halfway through.

[John]

Well, that's tacky.

[Mike]

There was one episode where the video started turning itself off like eight times.

[John]

Oh, goodness. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was fun.

[Mike]

It did it one time and then all of a sudden just stopped.

[John]

Wow, that's funny.

[Mike]

To try to keep him on his toes, which he wasn't. We missed like 28 minutes of video. Yeah, we've had some dreams. I messed it all up. But yeah. Thank you guys for making the drive out.

[John]

I really appreciate the opportunity. And yeah, it's been. It's been a fun time. This is a beautiful place.

[Mike]

It's not bad. There's worse places to live.

[John]

This is. This is. I was told when. When I mentioned somebody that, hey, we're heading up to Kalispell, they say, said you're not going to want to come back. And it's. We're grateful to be living in Boise, but this would be. This is. It's.

[Mike]

Yeah, we need contractors. I'm just saying.

[John]

Well, we'll see.

[Mike]

All right, cool.

[John]

We'll see. I think marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one, one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to Libsyn ads.com that's L, I, B S Y N ads.com today.