Episode 403 - Steve Holland - SWAT, Faith, and the emotional toll of law enforcement

Summary

---

Cleared Hot Podcast – Episode 403 Summary

Guest: Steve Holland (SWAT Officer)

Host: Andy Stumpf

Date: August 18, 2025
Main Theme:
A deep, candid conversation with Steve Holland—a SWAT officer—about the realities of law enforcement, trauma, faith, PTSD, and recovery. The discussion moves from analyzing high-profile incidents to sharing intensely personal reflections on the toll of the job and the journey through depression, suicidal ideation, spiritual struggle, and the road to healing.

---

Episode Overview

Andy Stumpf sits down with SWAT officer Steve Holland for an unfiltered discussion about law enforcement’s hardest moments, how repeated trauma changes the brain and spirit, the weight of public criticism, and the emotional healing process. Steve opens up about confronting evil in society, questioning and rediscovering faith, battling PTSD and alcoholism, and using therapy and peer support to rebuild. Through a critical dissection of major incidents like the Nashville RV bombing and the Covenant School shooting, the episode pulls back the curtain on what it’s actually like to live and serve on the front lines—and what it takes to save yourself after the job has exacted its price.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nashville RV Bombing & Limits of Policing

[00:51 – 14:30]

• Steve recounts the 2020 Nashville RV bombing, responding from his perspective as an officer not directly involved but present for aftermath and investigation.
• SWAT was not called—FBI and Bomb Squad took over since it was deemed terrorism.
• Discussion of the bomber’s motivations (anti-5G conspiracy tied to personal trauma—blamed AT&T for father’s cancer).
• The perpetrator took deliberate steps to avoid civilian casualties, including broadcasting warnings and detonating early Christmas morning.

  “He picked a day where there wouldn’t be a lot of people out…and he put these announcements over the loudspeaker: ‘There’s a bomb...You need to evacuate.’” – Steve [05:21]

• Law enforcement’s hands are legally tied before a crime is committed, leading to public frustration afterward.

  “If there’s no probable cause, you can’t...I don’t want the police or FBI just kicking in my door because you called them and said I was making a bomb.” – Steve [09:29]

2. Faith, Skepticism, and Institutional Religion

[18:13 – 24:32]

• Steve discusses his journey away from, then back to, faith—initial skepticism about institutional religion, and envy of those for whom faith brings comfort.
• Argues spiritual connection is more personal than church attendance:

  “There are people in my profession that are pieces of shit…There are even people that are on SWAT teams. But that didn’t stop you from pursuing the name, like a career in the Navy SEALs…so when I see pieces of shit at church, I don’t—I just, okay, well, that’s them.” – Steve [21:04]

• Andy relates, noting belief and contribution to community are independent:

  “Some of the most faithful religious people that I know—it has absolutely nothing to do with their church attendance.” – Andy [20:41]

• Encouragement not to let hypocrisy in institutions drive out personal faith.

3. Law Enforcement, Dark Humour, and Emotional Armor

[29:04 – 30:19]

• Steve and Andy frankly discuss developing a gallows sense of humor to survive exposure to humanity’s darkest moments:

  “If you are a faithful person and that is your job, cannonballing into that pool…and you don’t get to pick the calls…how would it not constantly put you in a place where you’re asking yourself, if there is a God…how did this just happen?” – Andy [30:07]

4. Spiritual Warfare and Trauma’s Impact on Faith

[30:24 – 41:19]

• Steve introduces the concept of ‘spiritual warfare’—the Devil’s influence to sever people from God, especially in moments of tragedy, personal failing, or institutional scandal.
• Critical examination of events like the Covenant School shooting and institutional evil in broad contexts (church scandals, government failures), highlighting how evil exploits misdeeds to erode faith.

  “God gave us free will, and the Devil was able to infiltrate those people’s lives and convince them to do bad things and then use those events as a way to get other people to lose their faith with God…” – Steve [33:36]

5. The Covenant School Shooting - Field Intel and Emotional Cost

[34:09 – 54:00+]

• Steve breaks down the timeline, emotional intensity, and tactical considerations of responding to the Covenant School shooting.
• He details just-in-time alerting, deployment (decision to leave the dog behind at first), and the chaos of real-world CQB (“stop the killing, then stop the dying”).
• Describes the heroic run-in by Rex, the video that circulated, and what it felt like for officers to discover the shooter was a woman (unprecedented scenario).
• Stunning detail about ‘divine intervention’: fire alarm inexplicably triggered, saving children’s lives; shooter apparently “didn’t see” targets she’d previously reconnoitered.

  “The fire alarm shouldn’t have gone off…the smoke from her rifle should not have triggered [it]…I think that was God…divine intervention.” – Steve [52:52]

• Despite recognizing moments of providence, Steve describes how this event shattered his newly rekindled faith and worsened his mental health.

6. PTSD, Depression, and Seeking Help

[55:57 – 73:16]

• Steve candidly details his spiral into depression, self-medicating with alcohol, loss of joy, numbing self-defense mechanisms, and addiction as a form of seeking feeling.

  “I realized when I was at the rehab center that I wasn’t just drinking alcohol to numb things—because I was already kind of numb…I realized I was just trying to allow myself to feel other things.” – Steve [69:43]

• Discusses the “suck it up” culture and how massive increases in trauma exposure for police officers (average: 100-600+ traumatic events/career) make it almost inevitable that officers develop PTSD.
• Stresses the importance and difficulty of overcoming stigma and normalizing help-seeking.

7. Suicidality, Recovery & Turning Point

[94:31 – 105:08+]

• Steve shares the mechanics of his own suicidal ideation and attempt (attempted vehicular suicide thwarted by a sudden moment of insight), and the “whispers” of self-destruction as ‘spiritual warfare’.

  “To me, that’s the Constantine stuff. It’s just whispers…it starts as a thought and you think that you can stop it…but eventually you find yourself killing yourself.” – Steve [95:35]

• Admission to Magnolia Meadows, a peer-based PTSD facility exclusively for men in law enforcement and military, and the power of group healing and EMDR therapy.
• EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) is described in detail as a way to “unclog” the trauma stuck in REM sleep.

  “EMDR helps you get [unprocessed trauma memories]…through the brain and stored away…like unclogging a drain…” – Steve [85:16]

• Andy relates with his own experience at NICO (military medical facility)—underscoring the need for comprehensive, peer-based, multi-modal therapy.

8. Nightmares, Flashbacks, and Ongoing Struggle

[88:55 – 92:34+]

• Steve speaks honestly about persistent, nightly nightmares, episodic flashbacks (often triggered by training), and how therapy hasn’t fully resolved these issues.
• The importance of expressive outlets (journaling, art, creative projects) in managing ongoing effects, though different modes work for different people.

9. Returning to Duty, Advocacy, and Changing the Culture

[104:50 – 113:52]

• Steve notes he hasn’t yet returned to his team and discusses apprehension about stigma, acceptance, and whether he’ll be able to effectively perform.
• Andy encourages performing as the best advocate for changing the culture, as visible recovery can ripple out to help others.

  “To me, that is how culture shifts. It’s not the leaders talking about, ‘go get yourself checked out,’ it’s the leader who has to step aside for a little bit…The job you guys have is heavy. It comes with a cost…that check’s gonna get cashed at some point.” – Andy [112:27]

• Discuss the need to proactively check in on mental health before crisis and the danger of bottling up trauma:

  “It’s going to manifest one way or another. You can’t stop it.” – Steve [108:58]

10. K9 Use, Tactics, and Darkly Comic Stories

[115:11 – 133:38]

• Steve details effective use—and misuse—of police dogs in CQB, advocating for careful, tactical integration to save lives (officers, suspects, and K9s).
• Shares both harrowing and darkly comic stories: e.g., a standoff ending with the team and K9 knee-deep in human waste after a suspect barricaded himself in a homeless camp’s latrine.

  “So I get my dog and I walk out...And I’m not laughing at the gravity of the situation, but just think about this for a second: what would you do? Now I’m covered in shit, my dog’s covered in shit...” – Steve [133:19]

11. Physical and Emotional Fitness in Police Culture

[137:16 – 144:28]

• Both acknowledge and gently rib the “thick blue line”—officers who are physically unfit for the job and how that is both a public and personal issue.
• Dives into food and other unhealthy coping mechanisms and the complications of changing ingrained behaviors:

  “For them, food...is a very difficult coping mechanism to kick because everyone has to eat...I think it is—it's very difficult for some people to get past that.” – Steve [140:44]

• Discussion of department standards, union complications, and the need for leadership to drive change.

12. Combatives, Training Deficiencies, and Identity

[144:35 – 156:35+]

• Steve describes the challenges of keeping up-to-date on practical combatives/defensive tactics, given time and training limitations.
• Andy discusses the risks of forming an identity entirely around tactical work and the emotional cliff after retirement or forced disability:

  “We’re all replaceable. Every single one of us is replaceable...if you don’t focus on those things, the jobs will—they will eat you, man. They’re a bear trap that won’t let go.” – Andy [152:13]

13. Advice on Social Support and Self Care

[150:14 – 153:56]

• Both emphasize building a social circle outside the job (“Intentionally focus on creating a social circle away from that environment and people...one of the healthiest ways to start detaching your identity from your occupation.” – Andy [151:19])
• Steve admits this is a point he struggles with, noting his introversion and tendency to isolate.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the aftermath of trauma:

  “You just want it to stop...and it's not rational...and I just wanted it to end.” – Steve, on suicidal thoughts [96:25]

• On faith and evil:

  “All the devil cares about is destroying us through temptation...he wants to separate us from God...no one is immune to it.” – Steve [30:28]

• On PTSD statistics:

  “The average person in the United States will experience like 3 to 4 traumatic experiences in their life...the average police officer, one study said 178, some up to 600.” – Steve [74:24]

• On team stigma and coming forward:

  “That's why I'm leaning into it... It's uncomfortable to come out with these things. The only reason I'm able to say any of these things to you right now without bursting out into tears is because I've spent the last month doing it at that facility.” – Steve [107:04]

• On the power of therapy:

  “EMDR...that's probably the best sleep I've ever had in my life...I woke up the next day feeling more refreshed. I felt like I was a kid again.” – Steve [89:47]

• On culture change:

  “If you want to reduce a lot of your bandwidth and stress, don’t want more for people than they want for themselves.” – Andy [24:26]

• On dark humor:

  “There’s some real fat SEALs too. As they get older, it’s like the standards don’t seem to apply to them...” – Andy [21:27]

• On reintegration and leadership:

  “Just imagine the power of the message, though, of...they see you come back. Especially if you can be a better version of yourself.” – Andy [113:35]

• On not letting institutional evil destroy faith:

  “Don’t let bad stories in the institution...prevent you from having your own faith, you know?” – Steve [24:26]

---

Important Timestamps & Segments

• Nashville RV Bombing & Policing Limits: [00:51 – 14:30]
• Discussion on Faith and Church: [18:13 – 24:32]
• Gallows Humor / Emotional Armor: [29:04 – 30:19]
• Covenant School Shooting Response: [34:09 – 54:00]
• PTSD, Alcohol, Suicidality: [55:57 – 73:16]
• Therapy/EMDR at Magnolia Meadows: [80:06 – 89:47]
• Nightmares & Recovery: [88:55 – 92:34]
• Readiness to Return & Culture Change: [104:50 – 113:52]
• K9 Tactics & Comic Relief: [115:11 – 133:38]
• Physical Fitness & Coping: [137:16 – 144:28]
• Identity, Combatives, Social Circle: [144:35 – 156:35]

---

Closing Thoughts & Resources

Steve Holland’s journey as a SWAT officer shines a powerful, deeply human light on the profession’s costs—and the possibility of redemption, healing, and culture change in law enforcement. The episode provides both a hard look at the mechanisms of institutional failure and the ways leadership and openness can normalize seeking help.

Resources Mentioned:

• Righteous Tactics – Steve’s Company
• Magnolia Meadows (PTSD Recovery for LEO/Military, TN)
• Andy’s mental health episodes & references like [Robert Stark’s Cleared Hot episode]

For Law Enforcement & Vets:
If you struggle with trauma, depression, or suicidal thoughts, reach out to peer support, seek a therapist specializing in trauma/first responders, or check out resources like Magnolia Meadows.

---

Podcast Guest Contact:

• Righteous Tactics YouTube Channel
• [IG: @righteoustactics]

---

Listen to the full episode for a raw, authentic, and at times darkly humorous exploration of what it means to go through hell and come back—on the job, and in your soul.

Transcript

[Host]

Back to school is better. With family freedom from T Mobile, we'll.

[Michael]

Pay off four phones up to $3200 and give you four free phones, all.

[Host]

On America's largest 5G network. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com familyfreedom.

[Michael]

Up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card. Typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement, eg, Apple iPhone 16.

[Host]

128 gigabyte 8, 20099 eligible trade in.

[Michael]

Eg iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits. End and balance due.

[Host]

If you pay off earlier, cancel contact T Mobile.

[Michael]

Okay, I got the red smoke.

[Host]

Sun runs north to south.

[Michael]

West of the smoke. West of the smoke.

[Host]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[Michael]

Give it to me. I mean it.

[Host]

You're cleared hot. Can't be cleared hot. Let's talk about that.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Host]

What was going on there? I remember that made the national news. Were you working during that time period?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

I figured you guys might actually have.

[Michael]

Gotten called because, believe it or not, SWAT did not get called. So it was.

[Host]

Who did they call?

[Michael]

The bomb squad. And the FBI kind of took it over, so. Since it was an act of terrorism. Yeah.

[Host]

Okay.

[Michael]

And. And I, you know, I think there was some. Not. Maybe publicity is not the right word, but that was a pretty high profile thing, so a lot of people wanted to, like, have their hands in it. You know what I mean?

[Host]

Jesus, you're on it again today, Michael.

[Michael]

It happened. It happened on Christmas.

[Host]

That's right. Yes.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

What was the backstory with this? Was it a guy or a girl?

[Michael]

It was a man.

[Host]

It's. Why is it always a man? I mean, it's crazy. No, that. Is that the aftermath of it, that was actually more destruction than I thought. It was a vehicle, right?

[Michael]

It was. It was an RV that he just packed. You know, I'm not on the bomb squad, so I. Yeah, I don't remember all the materials, but from what I.

[Host]

Remember, that's what's left of the rv, though, which is basically pieces.

[Michael]

The. I don't know if that's the RV or not, but the. The RV was. Was pretty much disintegrated, I thought.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But, yeah, so I remember we did a walk through with the bomb squad down that corridor after the fact, and it was insane. It looked like something out of a movie. I mean, cars. We saw some of the footage, and some of the vehicles that were parked on that street were no longer where they were. They it looked like someone just picked them up and then set them down and scorched. I mean, it was insane.

[Host]

Was he in the vehicle?

[Michael]

Yeah, he committed suicide. And he just packed it with. With a bunch of explosives and packed it with a bunch of personal belongings I guess he wanted to take with him. And, and he just, you know.

[Host]

Not that anything about this is hilarious. I just am jumping to the thought process of a guy who is. Knows he's going to blow himself up and says, I need a few trinkets.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

In addition to the. Whatever the ammonium nitrate or they had in the car, whatever it was, I also need this box of trinkets.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, we're also dealing with someone who's not. Not all there, you know, I mean.

[Host]

Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. What could I say about the brand that listeners of the show don't know already? They've been a sponsor, one of the main sponsors for this year. So, you know, they were founded by Josh Smith, somebody who had on the podcast multiple times. I highly suggest you go back and take a listen. Founded in Montana, they're based down in Frenchtown. Getting ready to move into a new building into the western edge of Missoula. Bringing jobs back into Montana. Growing, expanding, trying to drive manufacturing back to the United States. You know their website, montanaknifecompany.com. what else could I have to possibly say? Well, hunting season's right around the corner, and I'm looking at it right now. The Blaze Friday, August 14th through the 17th, is when they start sending out or selling. I should say they'll send them out after you buy the blaze knife collection. The blaze orange knife collection. If you're a hunter, if you're in the western states, you know what I'm talking about. Orange season is right around the corner. I have a couple of these knives. They're kind of awesome. Does it satisfy the orange requirement? Absolutely not. But is it a cool addition to your hunting loadout? Yeah, it absolutely is. What I'd say is head over to montanaknifecompany.com and just check out what they have to offer. Like, one of the things I see right now is an EDC or everyday carry dump tray. Nothing to do with knives really, even though you could put one on there. But they have a really cool collection of ancillary devices. I'm looking at the orange stuff right now. They have a bunch of them. Tuesdays. No, Thursdays and Saturdays are when they release their knives. Join their mailing list Join their text message club because they sometimes do releases that are not scheduled on those two days. And if you are interested in supporting an American manufacturing brand who is trying to do it right, who is trying to grow infrastructure and ecosystem here in the United States, head over to montanaknifecompany.com my only ask is this. At some point in your checkout process, they're going to ask you how you heard about them. Click my name or the show or both. If they both show up and that's it. That's all I can ask back to the show.

[Michael]

And, you know, the good thing is it appeared as though he didn't want to kill anybody because he made the announcements. I don't know if you remember that, but.

[Host]

No, I didn't. He.

[Michael]

Yeah. So he. He had like an automated. It sounded like a creepy voice. You may be able to find some good, but.

[Host]

And then what time of day did he clack it off?

[Michael]

It was pretty early in the morning. So he picked a time, a day where no one. He picked a day where there wouldn't be a lot of people out to begin with.

[Host]

Okay.

[Michael]

And he picked a time of day where there wouldn't be a lot of people out. And then he put these announcements over the loudspeaker. Something like, there's a bomb or there's going to be an explosion and you need to evacuate. You need to evacuate. But it wasn't his voice. It was on repeat. And it was. It sounded like something out of the Purge is. It's. That was the first thought I had when I heard it. And. And he kept it going. So, of course police get called and police, you know, the patrol officers get there and they. I think they. They were taking it serious. But I think in everyone's mind it's. This might be fake. This might be a hoax, like what's going on here.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But they take it serious. They start evacuating people. And he waited to detonate it until, I guess his perception was that everybody was out of the area and everybody was. So he. When the last officer, like, rounds the corner, that officer, I believe, actually did still get impacted by the blast, but he didn't die. As soon as he lost line of sight of the last officer, he collected off. And. And that corridor right there, there's so much. There's so many, like, so much structure there that it just, you know, I mean, you know quite a bit about explosions. Like that energy just shot through. Yeah.

[Host]

It doesn't just dissipate and disappear. I have been rocked down hallways from reaching charges that you can't even see. But because it was a 90.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And my. You know, the rule is, if it can't. If you can't see it, I can't see you. Well, yeah, it couldn't see me, and I didn't catch any frag, but I got my bell rung.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah, I felt some of that, too. The rules are, too. But, yeah, if you're. If you're staying in the corner or something, I think this is the announcement. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. So he.

[Host]

A halting message.

[Michael]

He played that on repeat I don't know how long, but for an extended period of time until it seemed like the perception is. It seems like he was trying his best to not kill anybody. His beef was with AT&T. And he. He was a conspiracy guy, I think. And. And I don't. I still don't understand this conspiracy. I haven't done the research, but he was. He thought 5G was evil. Oh. So, yes.

[Host]

You already know what I'm thinking, don't you, Michael?

[Michael]

I don't know enough to talk about the topic.

[Host]

We have a man here in town, two first names, which is a warning sign.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Host]

I only know this because I'm buddies with a lot of cops, and I described him as the man with a sign and two bullhorns. So they're like, stop. Say less. We know who you're talking about. Frequent flyer is the term that they use. I won't say his name because he. I'm not a doctor, but I think he's crazy.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

He has a sign that I'm not joking, is about from floor to ceiling, and he always turns it fast. I'm very interested, actually, because I'm curious what this guy's thought process is, but he turns it too quickly to read. But it does open with 5G. Okay, so it is. I'm not going to say this is a widely held belief that. But we might have his cousin here. The stories from the law enforcement officers. It's just one of those guys where you start describing and they're like, I got you. And they just start shaking their head. Yeah, all the time. Because he's not doing anything illegal. You know, he'll. He'll pass. He'll pass you on the streets and you want to buy a submarine, you know, like. And so he's, like, not really breaking the law, scaring the crap out of people, but he's not doing anything actually illegal. I think they rolled him eventually on. I think they might have gotten him on a mental hole. But I saw him recently. He's back.

[Michael]

Oh, geez. Yeah, that's the thing that, that's the problem with, with people like that or anyone who's mentally ill, generally speaking, they're going to get released at some point, you know, unless they're a danger themselves and they get committed. But for that guy in this bombing, there was a lot of criticism after the fact that in the public, like, well, why. Why wasn't this guy on anybody's radar? And then they found out that he was on the radar and that a police report had been filed and they, they blamed. They try to blame law enforcement for, like, letting this happen, but once again, like, he wasn't breaking a law until he did so.

[Host]

Also, I don't understand what people think.

[Michael]

Well, they wanted it saying it seemed like they thought that police should have searched his residence as soon as people started making accusations and things, things like that. Like there were people that were accusing him of, I believe, making a bomb. But here's the thing. There was no. And I'm not on the bomb squad. I was not part of this investigation. Yeah, but I do understand the law. If there's no probable cause, you can't. Like, I don't want the police or the FBI just kicking in my door because you called them and said I was making a bomb.

[Host]

No, there's a reason why. There's a legal threshold. I mean, the Constitution. I mean, the Fourth Amendment specifically on that one. Can you imagine how little police would get done if you had to respond to every single report or call? I mean, again, talking to my Leo buddies, they're like, yeah, sometimes it's just the neighbor that's pissed at the other one. It's a feud that goes back days or weeks or months. And so they're using 911 to try to.

[Michael]

They weaponize law enforcement to piss each other off.

[Host]

And meanwhile. And again, another thing people don't realize is the thin veneer. I mean, up here, you get a bunch of officers going in one direction. There are not a whole lot of officers in the other direction. I don't want them over there being weaponized because two people are pissed off at each other. And also, we don't live in a movie where what I will say, my limited understanding of the three letter agencies. If you're on an electronic device, they probably have your communication somewhere. That doesn't mean that there's somebody real time listening to it. Yeah, they can go in the rearview mirror after you blow yourself up on the street. And probably pull your stuff out. But we don't live in a movie where you have an analyst assigned to you and I have somebody assigned to me.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

Like. Or maybe we do. Maybe there's a third person listening to this.

[Michael]

AI will probably use to start flagging that stuff, if it isn't already, but.

[Host]

Oh, it probably will, but then it's still going to have to go to a human review, I would hope.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

And then even. Does this meet the legal threshold?

[Michael]

How do we get this information? Was it legal?

[Host]

Yeah. Which.

[Michael]

And depending on the threat, it may not matter. You may not care, you know, like, if you're gonna prevent something like that. But. But either way, yeah, they. They try to blame the law enforcement in general. You know, I think they try to blame the FBI. They definitely tried to blame local police. And it was just one of those situations, like, well, this is tragic. Thankfully, nobody died except him. But what were we supposed to do? Like, just do a warrantless search on this guy, you know, but.

[Host]

And then, spoiler alert, everybody. If you do a warrantless search that doesn't meet the legal criteria, the most guilty person in the world is walking away.

[Michael]

Yeah, you gotta get away with it.

[Host]

So, I don't know. Pick your poison, I guess. It breaks my heart that people get to that point where they. And I understand crazy people do crazy things. And from somebody who considers themselves to be rational and not insane, I can't understand how somebody who would be irrational or considered insane because they probably think that they're both of those things as well. Rational, insane. It breaks my heart, though, that somehow somebody thinks that the solution to 5G, whether the conspiracy is real or not, is packing an RV full of explosives and personal items and blowing themselves up. That sucks.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, he. He wanted to destroy 5G. And I. I guess he. His belief was that if he took down that building that it would destroy the infrastructure. He didn't take down the building. It did fuck up communications for quite a while. That was. Now that I'm thinking about it, that was the weirdest part about that day because Every. I had AT&T as my personal cell phone carrier for my Internet in the home. And then my work email. I'm sorry, my work phone was AT&T as well. So everything went down. So at first I didn't even know the bombing happened. I just. I knew my phone wasn't working. And then one of our neighbors didn't have AT&T for Internet, so they were still getting the Internet. They were getting streaming the News and everything. So they told us about it, and then it was like, oh, like, do I need to go into work? Like, what? I don't know any of the details. I don't understand anything that happened, so. And what was funny enough, in a messed up way, the department and a lot of departments. It wasn't just my agency. Everyone was using the. AT&T's FirstNet for their communication. And that was the. Their whole advertisement was, if something bad happens, FirstNet will stay up, you know, so if all the communication goes down, at least law enforcement, first responders will still have cell phone service. And we didn't have cell phone service, at least for a short amount of time. It eventually came back on once they rerouted everything, I guess.

[Host]

But was he from the area? Yeah, I was gonna say, why did. How did he find or pick that particular building?

[Michael]

He. If I remember correctly, his father worked for AT&T. And his father died from cancer. And he blamed. I believe his manifesto blamed AT&T5G. Like, caused the cancer and everything, so. So, yeah, he just. He had a vendetta, and I guess that might be why he didn't try to kill anybody else. Yeah, he wasn't trying to. He wasn't trying to hurt innocent people. Think. Thankfully.

[Host]

Yeah. So that video with the reporter, you and I, and even Michael, given his young age, as soon as you see the mask, that. I'm just like. I just know exactly when that video was for the rest of our lives. Well, assuming we don't live through Covid. Whatever, 31 or 28 or.

[Michael]

Yes. Yeah.

[Host]

As soon as you see that, you're like, oh, I know that time period.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's visually distinct. Just got it.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to forget that time period.

[Host]

For sure, but, yeah, I'm sure you guys had fun arresting people in parks for fresh air.

[Michael]

Yeah. So that brings up something interesting. Our police chief at the time was fired because he wouldn't enforce the mask mandate. So the mayor wanted the. The mayor at the time wanted us to arrest people if they refused to wear a mask in the downtown district. Like, if they were walking around and arrest them. Yeah.

[Host]

What would you book them on?

[Michael]

I don't. None of it made any sense. And, you know, he. He used the term arrest. Maybe he meant citation. And then if they refused to sign the citation, it could turn into a custodial arrest. But at the end of the day, nobody on the department wanted to enforce that. It's not. It's not legal.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And our police chief at the time Recognized that it wasn't legal and stood up to him and said, no, we're not doing that. And then they made him step down.

[Host]

Meanwhile, in California, they're arresting paddle boarders, right? Like three cop cars and a boat for a guy just trying to get some. Some steps in or rows. And I guess it would be your paddles. Yeah. It was a weird time.

[Michael]

I saw people wear masks on the way here that I hadn't seen that in a while. And they like flying out here in the airport.

[Host]

I see it in the airport. Well, for one thing, it's in Asian culture specifically. They were rocking masks way before COVID But it's more cultural from my understanding. If they're just not feeling well, they'll throw a mask on as more of a safety courtesy thing. So especially the more you travel towards the. As my father would say, Michael, the Orient. My father is interesting one. Just so you know, topgolf is huge in the Orient. That was one of his statements. I used to see it all the time, years before COVID Every once in a while, I see it here in the US And I. I've never asked anybody because, honestly, whatever their actions are not asking to be judged by me. But I do have. I curiosity, like, are you. Because if somebody's not feeling great, then it's probably a good idea if you don't want to spread that.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

But if you are, or maybe you're immune compromised. I don't know. It is a little man. It was a. Interesting pressure test to see who was willing to comply immediately. And actually, you know, the test was actually people's reaction to fear. That's actually what I would say it came down to because a lot of people, too, including myself. When it first started, it was unsettling. Like, Montana took it pretty serious for about six weeks. I distinctly remember Main street totally empty. Driving home. I was living out at our lake house at the time. And roads like portable road signs. Stay home, stay safe.

[Michael]

Like, damn, I remember that error.

[Host]

Yeah. A little bit farther into that. People started reaching for their middle finger and like, we're gonna go ahead and live our life, but wow. I mean, there were some people who. I get it, they were scared. But fear doesn't help make, you know, decisions any better.

[Michael]

No, absolutely not.

[Host]

And there were some people who, man, they came unwound. And their willingness to comply due to fear is, to me, concerning. Yeah, but whatever. I totally hijacked. What were we going to start with? Now that we've gotten to the bottom of the case of the Nashville rv, man.

[Michael]

Yeah, no. No worries. Well, so.

[Host]

Got you. To reach out in the first place.

[Michael]

This is going to sound super cheesy. I. I felt almost compelled. No, not almost. I felt compelled by God to reach out to you. I don't know why.

[Host]

Why is that cheesy?

[Michael]

I guess it's not. I guess I'm. I'm. I know how that sounds to some people. That's something I need to get over. So. I've recently reconnected with God. I went 20 years or more not talking to him, not going to church, not considering myself religious, not considering myself Christian.

[Host]

Were you raised in faith?

[Michael]

I was, but I. I always rebelled. For whatever reason, when I was younger, I didn't. I hated going to church. Yeah, I questioned it. I remember getting into existential conversations with my parents about it. Like, the only reason we believe this is because it was. It's what we were born into. This is what your parents taught you, and this is what you taught me. Like, if I was born somewhere else, I may be a different religion. So I was. I took a very analytical approach to it and I kind of dismissed it.

[Host]

Was it the institution of faith that kind of turned you off, you think?

[Michael]

Maybe a little bit.

[Host]

Because I've never. I've said this many times. I'm not a religious person. Totally open to the concept, but I'm not gonna sit here and lie about saying I believe something that I don't. And I'm actually really. My ex wife would oftentimes want to go to church, and I would go with her. And I would. More than anything, people watch, which might sound bad, but I was people watching from the perspective of seeing how much of an impact it had in their life. And quite frankly, I was envious of the people that could have that level of faith and belief. I just can't say that I have that because I don't totally open to it. And I always say maybe that just means it's not my time. Right. Completely open to it. It just hasn't landed with me. But from somebody who. Looking at it from the outside, I've met a lot of people who don't like the idea of the institution of faith because they associate church with religion. And I think you can have one without the other. I don't think, you know, the. The church going to church will be a better way to put this. There's a lot of pieces of shit that go to church.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Host]

And, you know, just because you go to church doesn't mean you're a great person. Or even have a relationship with God.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And this is again, from a guy looking from the outside. This is kind of what I've been able to parse. Some of the most faithful religious people that I know has absolutely nothing to do with their church attendance.

[Michael]

Yes. No, that's fair. I guess my response. One thing that I've learned is that doesn't matter to. At least for me. So I'll give you an analogy based on what you just said. So think of it like. I'll just think of my own profession. You could probably relate to this, being in the military. There are people in my profession that are pieces of. That doesn't know. Yeah, right.

[Host]

How could you say this?

[Michael]

There. There are even people that are on SWAT teams. I won't say any on mine, but.

[Host]

You'Re gonna get some thin blue line hate.

[Michael]

I know.

[Host]

I also talk about the thick blue line at some point.

[Michael]

What's that?

[Host]

Those are the fat cops.

[Michael]

I wasn't prepared for that one. That's good.

[Host]

That's a double C. Thi. Double C. Nice. Let's be honest, there's some real fat seals too.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Host]

Yeah. As they get older, I. For whatever reason, it's like the standards don't seem to apply to them, but yet they're still expected to do the job. I never understood that one.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, let's. Okay, so let's. Let's use the analogy of a SEAL team here. So you're on a SEAL team. One of your. One of your teammates gets in trouble, does something terrible. There was one podcast that I watched where you talked about a guy, like, they murdered some people or something.

[Host]

Like the honor man of my butts class is still in jail for murder. He and his wife lured a couple back to their apartment.

[Michael]

That's insane.

[Host]

Yeah. And this portion of the story comes from they eventually. They're divorced now.

[Michael]

No way. Yeah.

[Host]

Shockingly enough, it didn't work out. When it got to the trial, they each had their own version. So in that version somewhere, one of the things, somehow they induced an argument that was part of what happened. Shot them, drug them into the tub, cut them into pieces. Ben used to work at grocery stores, so he knew the cycle that how fast they would swap it out. So grocery store dumpsters got like an episode of Dexter. Dude got caught, though. Did you listen to the part how he got caught? Because this is real high level espionage.

[Michael]

I did watch that episode. I don't remember, though, how he got caught.

[Host]

They were breaking into a Hooters in the middle of the night.

[Michael]

To steal T shirts.

[Host]

To steal T shirts. And in her purse. I mean, I'm sure they deployed an entire detective squad for this one.

[Michael]

They had trophies.

[Host]

In her purse were the two IDs and a Spyderco knife with human flesh.

[Michael]

That's. God. Wanted them to get caught again, sure.

[Host]

Not a detective, but I feel like there's some dots that could be connected.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

So, yeah, we. We got some real zingers.

[Michael]

Well, that didn't stop you from pursuing the name. Like a career in the Navy SEALs. That didn't, like, taint the mission for you. So when I see pieces of. At church, I don't. I just. Okay, well, that's them. They're. They're not genuine. That's between them and God.

[Host]

Totally.

[Michael]

I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna waste my energy getting upset. Like God needs to, you know, whatever. Like, they're gonna have their. They're gonna have to face whatever it is that they're doing at some point. I'm here at church for me, my. My connection with God, my relationship with God is for me. So maybe. Maybe that translates. Maybe some people are shaking their head like, that's not the same thing at all. But that's kind of how I approach it. And that's. That's how I approach it with the. With my profession, too. Yeah. There's some guys that have tainted the badge. There's some guys that don't do police work for the right reason. Their heart's not in it, but mine is. That's why I'm in it. And I'm just. I'm just gonna do the best I can. So. So I would just encourage people to not let bad stories in the institution, whether it's the Catholic Church or any religious institution. Don't let those stories prevent you from having your own faith, you know?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

If you don't believe and you don't want to have faith, that's different. But don't. Don't just dismiss it because, you know, Johnny's a piece of shit.

[Host]

I ask people. People give the Catholic Church a hard time, and it. Quite frankly, the Catholic Church did a lot of things to really deserve that hard time. But I just will ask people to point towards an occupation that as long as there's human beings in that occupation, point to one that doesn't have examples of the bell curve on the great side, on the bad side, and you can't. Yeah, it's, you know, one thing that's helped me in my life. You're saying you'll Be at church or wherever it may be and you want to jump in and say something or do something. Somebody said to me once years ago, if you want to reduce a lot of your bandwidth and stress, don't want more for people than they want for themselves, that's good because you can't for. I mean, you could try to force it, I guess you could comply. Get forced people to comply in a variety of ways, but at the end of the day, if you want more for somebody than they want for themselves, man, you are. Your battery is just going to be on empty.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. It's going to be exhausting. You're setting yourself up for failure for sure.

[Host]

Yeah. What got you? Was there a moment that rekindled that connection for you?

[Michael]

Yeah. So I'm very fortunate. There's guys I work with that have very, very strong faith and they started doing Bible studies off duty. Like, hey, Saturdays, we're going to do a six month Bible study or 12 months Bible study. And I always had an aversion to it. And I don't know why. We can go into spiritual warfare if you want to, but I believe that's what it was. I believe the devil was, was trying to keep me from rekindling that relationship. So anytime. And one of them is my best friend. He, he works, he. He's one of the lead medics on for my company now. He kept coming up to me and I think he knew that I was struggling because at that time no one knew that I had depression. Nobody knew that I was struggling with PTSD or anything like that, but they knew something was wrong. So he kept coming up to me, asking me, man, I think you, I think you'd get a lot out of this. And I kept saying, no, no, no. And finally I said, okay, I'll come, I'll come to some of the meetings. And it didn't take a lot of time. You know, it was just like, I think you ended up having to read like one chapter a day or something like that. And then we would meet at the end of the week and we would talk about it and dissect it. And man, as soon as I started doing that, I just felt God's presence. I felt like I was reconnecting with them. And it felt like. It felt amazing. And I was like, holy crap. I've been. This entire time I've been pushing my way and I didn't understand spiritual warfare at that time. I didn't understand why. I just knew before that it was like, it was like two magnets. That were. Had the same polarization and it was pushing me away and, and now it got flipped and I was, I was, my heart was open to it, my mind was open to it and I was, I was really getting into it. So then I'm encouraging my wife to start rekindling hers and she's starting to get into it. So now we start taking our kids to church. This is the first time I've gone to church with my kids. First time they've ever been to church. First time I've gone to church in over 20 years. Literally the first time I've ever gone to church. And actually I don't want to say participated because I didn't participate, but spiritually I participated. I was actually listening to what the priest was saying. I felt God's like presence in me. Everything was just connecting. And, and that went on for a couple months and then the Covenant school shooting happened and I don't, I don't know why, because I didn't blame God. But for some reason that just destroyed it. Re. It re. Flipped that magnet is what it did. I suddenly had that aversion again.

[Host]

I was, I mean I was going to ask you at some point, you know, and I've said this many times on the show. I am not aware of anyone who's ever called 911 to report something awesome. The birthday party is going great. It's no, hey, Grandpa just fell over with a heart attack at the birthday party. Uncle Bob is shit faced and my dad's beating the crap out of him. Please send somebody over here. We got into a beef with our neighbors. A car wreck or like you said, a school. School shooting. Point being, you're responding to people. It's not the best expression of them. They're probably way better people in almost every other circumstance and experience. But your occupation by design and doctrine interfaces with people in those moments.

[Michael]

Oh yeah, I can't.

[Host]

So you're seeing the darkest side of humanity. It would be. And one thing that I have noticed and I, I was about to say I've noticed in the friend group that I have. That gives them a jaded sense of humanity, which I think to a degree is true because it's like a bag of tea. The longer you put it in water, the darker it gets. And the darker it gets. If you're only seeing that, yeah, it can give you a jaded sense of humanity. But I don't think that's fair to them. I will say it generally darkens their humor and gives them a little bit More of a gallows sense of humor. But I think that's more of a stress release mechanism.

[Michael]

Yeah, it absolutely is. Self defense mechanism.

[Host]

Yeah, but I mean like your. If you are a faithful person and that is your job, jumping in, cannonballing into that pool, and you don't get to pick the calls, you're not like, hey, today let's go for a. Whatever a cat in a tree, which of course would be a firefighter call. But poor bastards, how could it not constantly put you in a place where you're asking yourself if there is a God.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

How did fill in the blank just happen? Or why is this the fifth time I'm seeing this this week? Why is this the third time I'm seeing this on this shift? How would it. I don't see how it couldn't be that way.

[Michael]

Yeah, and to me, that's. That's that spiritual warfare stuff again.

[Host]

What do you mean by spiritual warfare when you say that.

[Michael]

The, the devil is trying to destroy us? Right. The best way I can describe it is. And actually I wrote some notes down before I came in here just because I get scatterbrained and I wanted to make sure I didn't mess anything up. But the Bible teaches us that the struggles that we face are. They're not human struggles, they're spiritual ones. And all that the devil cares about is destroying us through temptation, deceiving us. He wants to separate us from God. Okay, so spiritual warfare is. It's occurring behind the scenes. It's not necessarily something that you can see. A good movie to demonstrate, like what I'm trying to explain would be Constantine. Yes, it's a good movie. I like that movie. And I realize this is a fictional movie, but I do believe that stuff happens. The stuff of like, remember when there's like angels and demons whispering in people's ears? They're influencing, they're doing things.

[Host]

And so for people who haven't seen Constantine, a spectacular movie, B, I believe they're in talks to potentially continue that. One of the key premise, though, because John Constantine. Let me see here. He had killed himself, which means he doesn't get to go to heaven, regardless of how much good he is able to do. So he's basically an exorcist. Ish. I mean, that's one of the opening scenes. Sorry, spoiler alert. But this movie's been out for like 30 years, so that's on you who haven't watched. Have you seen Constantine, Michael?

[Michael]

I was just about to look over and I haven't seen It.

[Host]

Yeah, he gets two out of 10.

[Michael]

Maybe this is when I realized how old I am.

[Host]

He hasn't seen the Boondog Saints.

[Michael]

Oh my. I had that conversation with someone the other day.

[Host]

We had a five minute conversation about this yesterday with the P. And then we're just like, what? I'm like, a guy gets killed with a toilet.

[Michael]

It's a great movie. You need to go watch it.

[Host]

Constantine, you have to put this on your list too. One of the premise is this because he. So Constantine is able to see angels and demons, for lack of a better term. One of the rules is though, they can't directly get involved.

[Michael]

Correct.

[Host]

Is they can only influence. And that's the whispers in the ear.

[Michael]

And that's the spiritual warfare. Yeah, that's what I'm, that's what I'm referring to when I say it. But yeah, they. The devil is doing whatever he can to separate you from God and nobody is immune to it. Right. So one example that you brought up would be the, the bad stories you hear in the Catholic Church. Right? Well, why does that happen? How does God let that happen? Well, God doesn't let that happen. God gave us free will and the devil was able to infiltrate those people's lives and convince them to do bad things and then use those events as a way to get other people to lose their faith with God. Like, well, look at this. This is. I don't, I don't trust the church. God wouldn't let that happen. You know, so now I don't believe in God. Or maybe, maybe it's not that quick of a transition, but it starts to instill doubt in your head.

[Host]

The same thing as the government. There are so many stories. People will broadly say the government is evil or broken. I think there are some very trustworthy people that work for the government. So there are also some very untrustworthy people. So it's not that I don't distrust the government. I have a deep amount of distrust. And same for intelligence agencies or whatever. It may be a military as well. I have an inherent amount of distrust for the people that don't deserve it, but I do my best to maintain faith in the organization in and of itself.

[Michael]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Host]

Okay. The Covenant School shooting. So break down. I mean, I, I would love to say I know the exact details of that because it happens so infrequently that the details can get confused. And I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it has happened enough that honestly, every time I hear about one, I have to I have to kind of go dive in to figure out the exact details.

[Michael]

No, that's fair. I was actually on my way home from that week's Bible study when the call went out. Actually, I'm sorry, I had just gotten home from it.

[Host]

So are you guys a full time team or part time?

[Michael]

Full time.

[Host]

Okay, so you have, do you have a duty car then with all just.

[Michael]

Your stuff ready to go? Yeah. And there were, there was. So our team has like, when I say the team, I mean everybody, but within the team there are smaller subsets of team, you know, so some of the guys had, were on duty that day. My team had the day off. That was our day off that week. So. And another weird thing, on the drive home, not that I did this while driving, but I bought something on Amazon. And the thought came to my head because this was like at the highest moment of my connection with God. Like, I came out of that Bible study like, feeling really good, like feeling a strong love for God and feeling his love. And. And for whatever reason, I thought to myself, I need, I need to order a necklace. The Jerusalem cross, because I had that. I went to a Catholic high school and that was a very symbolic necklace that they gave to seniors. And I wore that for years. And then I guess I eventually lost it. And then I stopped wearing anything. And then, anyway, I decide I want to buy that. So I get on Amazon, I order one, and I get home and I tell my wife about it. And she's. She's excited too, because her, she went to a Catholic school and they had a similar necklace. And then I look at my phone, it vibrates. And that's when I saw the call.

[Host]

So how does that info get passed to you guys? Is it a call or is it a text? You guys roll rocking the old pager.

[Michael]

I'm old enough to have. I remember having a pager.

[Host]

I had a pager when I was on the east coast as well. And it was not cutting edge technology.

[Michael]

No, no, we. It's a mixture. So the team itself, we all have a signal thread and that's the quickest. So since there were guys at work, they heard the call go out on the radio.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So that information immediately got put up, pushed out to the team leaders and the whole team. So we started mobilizing and heading that way before dispatch got it out.

[Host]

Yeah. So what does that, what does that look like in reality? You look down at your phone, does it say some version of an active shooter occurring? And are you just assholes and elbows running for your car to start moving that direction as fast as you can.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, it was just the code. Like for us, it's code 9000.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So I remember one of the team leaders, he was at work, he just said code 9000 and he put the address out there. And I look like, I look down and I'm. I'm telling my wife about this necklace that I just bought. And I look down, I'm like, oh, I gotta go. And like you said, like, I bolted out of the house.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Ran to my. My Tahoe. Everything's in there. And I just started flying. And I didn't know where. I didn't know where I was going. I mean, I knew the address, but I didn't know it was a school.

[Host]

What kind of information do you. At that point? Obviously you have access to your radio and are you just pointed in that direction and trying to get up to speed as you're going?

[Michael]

Yeah. You're trying to get as much information as you can. Since I was off duty, coming from my house, and I'm probably one of the guys that lives the furthest on the team, so I was one of the. One of the last ones from the team to get there. So by the time I got there, I had already been fed a decent amount of information. But you know how. You can at least imagine how chaotic information would be on a situation like that. So the most reliable information I was getting was from my guys who were on the scene. Information coming through the radio, some. Some of it was inaccurate, but at the time, you don't know, you know, and on my way there, I figured out it was a school. But when I was. When I first started driving that way, I had no idea. And I remember as I was pulling into the parking lot, that's when they put out on the main. So, you know, we've got the SWAT radio, which is our own, and then there's the all police radio on that rad. They said shoot her down or something like that. They communicated that they had just shot the suspect. And I remember thinking, well, good, that, like, that's good. But we still, like, there could be another one in there. You know, we don't know. We don't know if there's going to be improvised explosions in there, like devices planted. That's pretty common, you know, the, the Aurora. Do you remember the Aurora, Colorado one? He. He had tons of explosives in his house. I don't know you heard about that or.

[Host]

No, but it seems to be almost every time you hear about a shooting now, if it means national news within a few hours, there's a bomb squad at their house, and they're approaching it as if that thing is rigged to blow.

[Michael]

And that's how his was. Yeah, his was rigged to destroy, like, a whole city block or something. The Aurora, Colorado guy. But. So that's where my mind is. It's like, well, that's great. We're not done, though. We still got a lot to do. And, you know, I'm a K9 officer too, so I've got a dog. And I remember pulling up and just like this thought went through my head like that. But I had the debate, do I grab my dog or not? This is an active killer situation. I'm probably more beneficial right now without him, because I don't. I can't just let him loose in the building. He doesn't know. Yeah, he could fight an innocent victim, so. And then I thought, well, what if this turns into Texas or Dallas, like, where they had the dude cornered? Yeah, what if there's another suspect? Well, then. And then I thought, okay, I can just come back and get him if it gets to that point. So right now I'm needed to be a team leader. I'm needed to just have my hands on my rifle, not on a dog. So the one of the other team leaders was already in the building, and he communicated that he needed more help on the second floor. Or maybe. I don't even know if he was on the second floor or not. I can't remember. But his instructions were go in. I think it was. Maybe it was the. The west entrance. I don't remember now. But it ended up being the same entrance that the shooter went through. And I didn't know that at the time, so I. My team ended up taking the same path she did. So we went through, like, she shot through a glass door to get in. And then we just started, like, going over, like, coming across body after body. And. And just coincidentally, we didn't know, but we were. We were following her footsteps through the. Through the school. And it was terrible, man.

[Host]

I mean, is this the video? Is there. Is this the one where there's that video that kind of starts with the officer charging his rifle and hauling ass?

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah, that's Rex. Yeah.

[Host]

Okay.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Host]

Yeah, here he is. Yeah. I gotta say, I have absolutely nothing but respect for these guys who went full back dive into that building. Because I was gonna ask you guys what. It's interesting by department. The protocols are different. Hey, we're gonna surround and set a perimeter. And others are like, no, no. But also, there's pros and cons to both. Like, and it's so easy to second guess. My initial thought would be you have to. You have to go make contact with the shooter.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. You gotta stop the killing, and then we stop the dying. Right. So you got to kill the threat. And then you can start working on medical. And if you got enough people, you could do both. Like, if this. If this area is warm and we've got enough people, this. This, like, element of the guys can continue pushing.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And this element can start working on medical on these guys and start getting them. No ccp.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And, you know, whatever that looks like. It's all very situational, you know, like.

[Host]

Obviously, if these guys are studs, they. Straight up.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. I mean, I. I love it. It's like, oh, because the doors probably auto locked, didn't they?

[Michael]

So what? I don't. I think they may have auto locked.

[Host]

Shotgun is not the weapon of choice in that environment, but I respect it.

[Michael]

Yeah. So you got to remember, it's like.

[Host]

Got what you got. You know what I mean?

[Michael]

This was, you know, everyone in the. In this. Everyone. Every agency was coming there, you know, so you've got a hodgepodge of people working together. All in all, they did pretty well with CQB fundamentals, considering.

[Host]

I'm just saying, if it was up to me, I would not grab a shotgun.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

But I'm stoked for the guy who grabbed what he had and would just.

[Michael]

Go to work and had the ball.

[Host]

Have to go to work.

[Michael]

Yeah. He didn't stand on the outside like we've seen on some of the other areas in the country.

[Host]

Here's the thing about, you know, CQB or CQC or cqd, whatever you want to call it, if you get the job done, awesome. You have the rest of your life to refine those tactics. I mean, you can already tell that there's people like, you got a plain Colosse dude right there with his jeans on.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

One of the other officers has got a, you know, a bump helmet. I looked like it was ballistic to a degree. And they're doing the best they can. They're moving quick like, nothing but respect.

[Michael]

Yep. They definitely showed up. Yeah. And I believe God put Rex there for a reason, you know?

[Host]

Is he. Is he a patrol officer?

[Michael]

He was at the time. Well, actually, I don't remember if he was still in patrol or if he was in some kind of specialized unit. I know he Wasn't assigned to that precinct. If I remember correctly, Rex was. He was in the area for another task, and then he ended up being very, very close. And he's. He. He's since made the SWAT team. He's on our SWAT team now. He didn't get any free passes for this.

[Host]

I was going to say, was he still earned it when he came in to apply, did he just hit play?

[Michael]

And he's like, no.

[Host]

You guys have any questions, go ahead.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah, we. I don't. I didn't know him. Maybe some other guys did, but I was. I. I gave him a. Like a clean slate, obviously. But I half expected that. Like, I was like, I wonder how he's going to handle this. And he is the most humble guy ever. Like, he didn't bring it up. He didn't. He. If you watch. He ref. I don't think he's done any interviews. Maybe he's done a few. He shies from the spotlight. He doesn't want, like, notoriety. Notoriety from that. He doesn't want fame.

[Host]

I mean, he's got good. He's manipulating his safety. He's like, watching his muzzle control. I mean.

[Michael]

And see right there? So that's God acting again.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah. Because he encounters a shooter right here, but he.

[Michael]

Out of all those dudes, that's the guy you needed in that position right there.

[Host]

But you could hear him saying it too. Get the AR up front or get the rifle up front.

[Michael]

Yeah, he says, get the lpvo up front. Which I don't. I don't stand for the. The optic low power. He just.

[Host]

So you know, those things are actually a nightmare. I'd go with the red dot.

[Michael]

All I do too. Yeah, that's. That's a huge argument on my team. But. But I. I guess that's. That's why I laughed when. When I watched that for the first time, I was like, why? It's cqb. He doesn't need that. Ironically, though, he was the best person for that job because he's the only one of the rifle. And it is a decent. Yeah, like you said, I can make that shot with. With a T2 aim point. But yeah, God pushed him up there because if. If Mike hadn't said that. Hey, you get up there. Like, whatever Mike's reasons were, it doesn't matter. It was the best possible fucking outcome. Because you put him on cross coverage. He ended up having the angle. She was actively shooting out the window. I think she was starting to reload.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Right when Rex gets in on her so she doesn't see it coming. Her attention's divided, and she's just laying fire on. On the officers that are responding.

[Host]

Was she really?

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's bullets striking vehicles. There was a female motorcycle officer that had to bail and, like, get behind the bike and use it as cover. And what did the shooter have?

[Host]

It was a night. It was a. It looked like a rifle, but it was a 9 mil. Right. 9 mil platform.

[Michael]

I believe it was.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I don't. He could probably look it up.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

There's a. She had. I believe she had multiple weapons. Yeah, that's her.

[Host]

Good God. What gets somebody into a place where they think that that is the solution to anything? To me, you can tell from the magazine that's a pistol caliber.

[Michael]

Yeah. Not.

[Host]

Doesn't make it any less lethal, but you can tell that that's a pistol caliber.

[Michael]

I remember seeing one of the magazines, too, when we were. When we were doing the clearance. I remember because at this time, I didn't know who the suspect was. I didn't know if it was a kid, man, woman.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But I remember we got to the top of the stairs, and I looked down, and there's a magazine on the ground, and it had something weird on it that would indicate a kid. Like it had a sticker or some kind of Calvin logo or something on it. And. And I just remember thinking, oh, it's the shooter's a kid. And it ended up not being. But. And then even when I saw the body, I still didn't know it was a female adult. I thought it was a boy student.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I saw the body from a distance as we were pushing through. But. But that. I guess the reason I bring that up is we go back to the chaos of the situation. So, I mean, it took us a while. We rendered the entire building clear. We're looking for more victims. The worst thing. Not the worst thing, but it would have been a. It would have been horrible if some kid bled to death because they're still hiding in a closet and we didn't find them, you know? So we're meticulously combing through this building, making sure there's no more threats, no. No explosives, no more victims. And then we're kind of like, gathering ourselves in the parking lot, catching our breath, and one of the other team leaders looks at me and says, I think we're about to go hit her house. I was like, her? Whose house? Like the female. There's a female. So, yeah, the female suspect. So there's two Suspects?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

He's like, no, no, it's. The shooter's a female. I was like, oh, that was never. That hadn't been conveyed to me yet. Or if it had, it was on the radio when I was already hyper focused on CQB or something, and I just. I just missed it. Or maybe. Maybe my radio messed up. But it's just after that whole event, it was just interesting having time to sit down and think about everything that. That transpired and then doing a walkthrough after the fact. Once they pieced everything, like once the homicide unit pieced everything together and just kind of seeing the timeline, it was. And then just. Just remembering your own perception of everything, just kind of fascinating.

[Host]

What was it about that incident that caused you to question your faith or to change your relationship that you were redeveloping with your faith?

[Michael]

I still don't know, man, because I. I believe that God prevented a lot more people from dying that day.

[Host]

How many eventually ended up dying?

[Michael]

Six.

[Host]

Okay.

[Michael]

Yeah. Three children, three adults. And it should have been a lot more. You know, I. I don't know. I don't know how to have this conversation with people, because the people that want to blame God will say, well, why did God let it happen? Why did God let it happen? And I always go back to, well, we still have free will, right? Like, he. He can't. We don't have free will if he interjects all the time. Right? But the things that happened that day. She wanted to have a high body count. Like that was in her statements and manifest or whatever.

[Host]

I hate that term.

[Michael]

I do, too. It sounds super stupid, but she could have killed a lot more people. When she pulled up and parked, there were a bunch of kids on the playground right next to where she parked, and she didn't even look at them. It's almost like she didn't see him. Some people say I've heard rumors. I have not confirmed this. I haven't spoken to anyone that spoke to the kids or interviewed them. But one of the rumors that I saw floating around the Internet once was that kids on the playground said that an angel put a dome, a golden dome over them, and they saw the angels that day. And I don't know if I would have even paid attention to that, but I remember an interview with. What's his name, Chris Tonto, from thirteen Hours. The guy was over there, I think, when he was on, maybe it was Sean Ryan. But he talked about. I swear, he mentioned at one point, like, a golden dome coming down and protecting Him. And I don't know if you remember, like, I know it was the movie. I wasn't there for the actual events. But in the movie, there's a line where he talks about, like, he just feels like God's always protecting him, like, as long as he's doing the right thing. So anyway, that, like, those two dots got connected and I was like, okay, that's. That's weird. That's the second time I've heard that reference of a golden dome. But either way, she got out and didn't. It's like she didn't see him. She just walked right past 30 or 40 kids. So if you wanted a high body count, the highest. I think the word was she wanted the highest body count ever. Why wouldn't you. Why would you bypass all those people? You know? And then as she's walking in, she passes groundskeepers. Because the. There was people working on the property that day, and the building itself was getting prepared for renovations. And that was part of. Part of the problem that day as well. When it initially happened, no one recognized it was gunfire. At first they. I think people just thought, that's construction. That's construction. I think that, you know, I don't know, I went there to hear what they heard, but maybe they just didn't know what gunfire sounded like or.

[Host]

Yeah. Plus, if it was a pistol caliber, maybe it was inside. I mean, it would be muffled a little bit. Yeah, but she shot outside too, right? To go through the glass?

[Michael]

Correct. That was the first shot, I believe was to break the door.

[Host]

I mean, let's be honest. A lot of people have never been exposed to gunfire, which is a great thing. Yes, it can be. I mean, she didn't have a can on if. I mean, that can confuse people as well, too.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. Hell yeah.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Well, I mean, she didn't kill those people. And then she, for whatever reason, she was fixated on the third grade. So she was. And she was a student there at that school when she was younger.

[Host]

Fixated on the third grade.

[Michael]

No, I don't know why. I don't know if they know why the guy's doing the investigation. I never heard, but that. That's. She did a tour of the school months prior or a time period prior to carrying out the attack. And she. She did it under the guise of, like, she's got kids that she's gonna potentially bring there. And she specifically asked to see the third grade rooms. So that was like her recon. So she knew exactly where she wanted to go. And that's What? That's exactly where she went. She went straight for the third grade. But the fire alarm went off. And this is. To me, this is God intervening again. The fire alarm went off and people started to evacuate the building because of the fire alarm. And what ended up happening is now as she's going up the stairs, she comes up. She comes face to face with this procession of third grade coming down the stairs, and that's when she starts. She starts opening fire on them. And three students died. And I'm not minimizing that. I hope no one takes anything I'm saying that way. But what would it have been if she walked up to that classroom and no warning, she would have walked into that classroom and killed every person in that classroom.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

The only reason that they. She wasn't able to do that was the fire alarm went off, and the fire alarm shouldn't have gone off. The. The. They said the. Like, the smoke from her rifle should not have triggered the fire line.

[Host]

Yeah, it shouldn't.

[Michael]

It. I specifically remember the homicide lieutenant, when he did our walkthrough, mentioning that. And even him, Even he seemed perplexed. He's like, we don't know why. Like, we don't understand why that went off. And I thought. I think I know why. I think that was God. I think God was stepping in and trying. Trying his best. Or. Or maybe it was an angel, but it was divine intervention. That's. That's the only way I can explain it. And. And same with the. The kids outside. There was. As she trotted through the building looking for more victims, there were more adult staff that she could have killed that she didn't see. I remember there was one person in one office who had nowhere to go, and they just, like, crouched down and they said it was like she didn't see him. She didn't. I mean, why wouldn't she have shot him? So. I don't. I don't know, man. It's. It's weird. But I say all that to say I didn't blame God. I don't. All I know is after that event, I had that magnetic, like, aversion again. Yeah. Like, I just. I didn't. I had no interest. I want it like.

[Host]

Like, instantly, like, leaving that scene.

[Michael]

I probably did, but I didn't notice it until some. Until a situation presented itself. So I think it was probably the next, like, the next Bible study or something. You know, Bart is the. He's the lead medic for my company. He's the one that was leading the Bible study. It probably was like, hey, are you going to come to the next meeting? And I was just like, no, man, I'm not. And over a long period of time and remind me to come back to this. I think a lot of it, A lot of that event created a. A self, maybe like a survival mechanism in my. In my brain to start shutting certain things out. And I think that may have had something to do with it, But I remember guys noticing I was struggling and reaching out some of the real spiritual dudes. And one. One dude on the team, he's a former Ranger, and I'm not saying anything he wouldn't say. He'll tell you that before he found God, he did things he wasn't proud of. He's like, I wasn't the best man. And he pulled me aside one day. We were on a long. Like a long operation, or it was just like a security operation. So we were just sitting in the car, like, for hours, and we just talked all night. And he. He told me a lot of stuff that I probably needed to hear, but I just kept, like, resisting it. Like, every time he said something, I was just like, yeah, okay, whatever. And he wanted to. He said, hey, can I send you something? Can I send you. I forget what he called it, like, his testimony or he had. He had something saved that he wanted to share with me. That was very powerful to him. And it. I guess it was at that time when he. When he made a change in his life, and I was like, yeah, man, sure, go ahead, send it to me. And he did. And I never read it. I never read it. Dudes would send me stuff, they'd send me links, they would send me videos. Like, man, I think you need to watch this. I think, like, this will help you. And I'd say, thanks, and I would just never open them.

[Host]

Did you know you were struggling?

[Michael]

Not at that time, no. Not with ptsd. Not with the. I knew I was depressed, but I had no idea the ramifications that were coming.

[Host]

Did you identify it as depression in the time, or did you just think you felt off?

[Michael]

I identified it as depression, but what I didn't realize. So the. I'll go back to the, like that building, that wall or whatever. However I described it, I. I. The. The body does not want to experience these things, right? And it doesn't want to think about it, doesn't want to process it. So it will try to block it out. Right? So what I ended up doing was not dealing with what I saw that day. I would have Sometimes I would have flashbacks. I know you had a, I think it was with Robert Stark you were talking about flashbacks. And I, I, I can give you some insight on those too, but I've never had one.

[Host]

And so I remember you saying that. Yeah, well, in my only. Unfortunately, most people's touch point with these things are what you see on a screen and that you have to remember that's probably more based in entertainment than it is.

[Michael]

Yeah. How do you visually depict that in a movie?

[Host]

And so all I can be is honest about the fact I haven't experienced that. Do I spend a lot of time thinking about my past?

[Michael]

Sure.

[Host]

Is that a flashback? I don't think so.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

I've never felt like I've been teleported or transfixed.

[Michael]

I haven't seen their area. Robert's experience was, was different than mine. For me, whenever I have a flashback, it is, it's very quick. It's like, like that. But when it happens, it's like whatever I'm seeing. Well, for the Covenant at least, it's almost like augmented over what I'm looking at.

[Host]

So you can physically see it?

[Michael]

Yeah, the, the first time it happened was we were doing training and we were, we were doing training in school and my team, like, we were pushing up the stairs and as I was pushing up the stairs, I guess the stairs resembled the stairs in the Covenant School. And just like that I saw the blood and the, like there was, I don't know how much I want to share. There was, it was terrible. And I just saw all that stuff as I'm clearing the stairs. And then that.

[Host]

Did it last.

[Michael]

That one, it kept coming, like, is very difficult to describe because it's, it's like a quick snapshot. You see it and then it goes, and then for me it would go away. But then it just kept like, as I kept pushing up the stairs, I kept seeing, I kept seeing it and it fucked me up, man. I couldn't, I didn't let, I didn't let anybody know. Guys probably could, maybe they could see, but everyone was so hyper focused on the training run that, you know, the iteration that they weren't really looking at me. You know, they're looking at their sectors and processing all the information. So. But I couldn't, I couldn't drive home that day. I waited. Everyone else went home and I called my wife and I just started crying. I was like, I can't drive right now. And then it started, it started fucking pouring. And, and this, this, like the training location was pretty far from my house. So with the rain, it was going to be like an hour and a half drive. I was like, honey, I. I can't drive right now.

[Host]

How'd you explain to her the why?

[Michael]

I just told her. I was like. And. And it was. It was difficult, and I didn't. It didn't, like, immediately come out. I. I had a hard time talking. I was trying not to let her know I was crying, but it was obvious. And then, you know, some guys don't cry. I. Whenever I cry, I. I try to fight it. Even though I tell myself, like, it's okay. Like, this is. It needs to get out. It's just, you know, whatever. Whether it's societal, it's ingrained in me, you know, And I don't. I don't feel comfortable crying in front of people. So whenever it starts to happen, like, you try to. At least I do. I try to fight it, but that just makes it worse, you know? So now I'm like. I'm struggling on the phone, trying to explain to her what I just saw. And what was your response? It was. It was supportive. I was like, well, just like, I'm here. Talk to me. Like, don't drive. Just. Just like, let's let this pass. And eventually I calmed down enough and I was able to drive home. But that was the first time I had. I had one of those. And. And sometimes it won't last as long as that. Sometimes if I have a flashback of something, sometimes it's just the. Like the sound or the. Sometimes even the smell, and it's really quick. It's just. And it jolts me, like, it's like, whoa. The fuck was that? And then it's gone.

[Host]

Did you drive home that night with your lights and sirens on?

[Michael]

No.

[Host]

Because then you can drive however you want, I believe.

[Michael]

Right. Yeah, that's right.

[Host]

We've split lanes. Whatever you want. Who's gonna pull you over? Another guy with lights and sirens? No, they're gonna assume you're busy.

[Michael]

Oh. So that. Not to go down a rabbit hole or a tangent.

[Host]

Have you seen the videos of, like, sheriffs pulling over pd? And then they get in arguments and they're both in cars.

[Michael]

That's the story I've got. It didn't get to that point because I didn't pull over. But I live a county away from. From the jurisdiction that I work in, and it can be a long drive on the interstate to get. Depending on, like, where the call is.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Like, if it's on the opposite end of my jurisdiction. From the county that I live in that borders. It's a long drive. So I obviously take the interstate and the Tennessee Highway Patrol one day try to pull me over because it's in. I don't drive a marked unit. I drive a unmarked Tahoe. And I didn't know. I didn't notice at first. I didn't even see him because I got the canine cage in the back, so.

[Host]

Isn't your plate associated with a car, though?

[Michael]

No, I guess not. It's. It. It doesn't say government on it. It's just.

[Host]

Yeah, but if they run it, what's it going to come back to?

[Michael]

It. It won't come back. It won't say anything about police, but I believe the address is where the. The. The motor pool is for our.

[Host]

Which they may not know, though. Okay.

[Michael]

They may not. So I. To be.

[Host]

I'm trying to give him credit.

[Michael]

I. Yeah, to be fair, it may look. It may look suspicious at first, but there's ways around that. Like, call this. Have your dispatch call another dispatch. Like, if you. I don't know. All I know is this dude is trying to pull me over.

[Host]

So he lights you up?

[Michael]

He lights me up. But I don't see it at first because I got the. The canine cage. I got so much equipment in my car, I can't. I can't see through the rearview mirror. I just. And I don't look behind me when I'm driving. Like, emergency.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Like, I'm looking forward. So eventually I look, I. I look to the side or whatever, and I see. I see he's behind me, and I'm like, is he. Is he trying to pull me over? I don't. I don't know. Maybe he's going somewhere, too. Like, it's weird. Yeah, of course he's trying to pull me over, but I guess I just thought.

[Host]

Did you have your lights on?

[Michael]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. I had my lights and sirens on the whole way. It'd be different if I blew by a cop and then I turned them on. That might look suspicious, right? But he. He should have seen me coming from, because at that stretch of the interstate, it was straight for a long while.

[Host]

How long did he chase you?

[Michael]

I don't want to say he chased me.

[Host]

He was chasing you?

[Michael]

He followed me into my jurisdiction, and he's a trooper, so he has jurisdiction everywhere. Yeah, but he followed me into my jurisdiction off the interstate, and then I kept going because I'm going to a fucking SWAT call. I don't have.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Like, to me, this wasn't for anyone that's listening. Like, this wasn't like, my dick's bigger than yours. Like, I would have pulled over and explained to him if I had time, but now you're going to work. It's an emergency. I got to fucking get there. So as soon as I get to the scene. He eventually pulled off. Once we started getting into traffic. As soon as I got to the scene, I went to my lieutenant and, like, look, I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble. I don't know if he's going to call and complain. A trooper tried to fucking pull me over on the way here. I didn't stop. He's like, you don't have to stop. I know. I'm just letting you know, if this comes down the pipe, like, if I get in trouble, it is what it is. But I wasn't. I. I wasn't breaking any rules or policies. I just didn't stop for this guy.

[Host]

And I want to talk to that man.

[Michael]

Maybe he'll reach out to you after this.

[Host]

Walk me through it. Give me some headspace insight as to what's going on. There's some great YouTube videos of cops pulling over other cops and they're almost going to blows while both in uniform.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like, guys, your occupation has a rough enough optic. Socially, this is helping nobody.

[Michael]

Oh, I know. Yeah. Well, yeah. Bad situations always. Yeah, there's. There's plenty of material out there to ruin the optics for police work, for sure.

[Host]

Yeah. Well, it's because nobody ever shows the successes. Really. That's the most boring body cam footage ever, is when you guys. Which is 99.9999-9999% of the time.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then they're doing your job incredibly well.

[Michael]

There's the algorithm, too. So not only is that not sensational, there are some feel good videos out there. But obviously people are going to be attracted to the stuff that they hate. Attracted to the stuff that's sensational. So their algorithm is always going to bring that stuff to the forefront.

[Host]

You know, let's be honest. The cop going through an entire mag on his own cop car because he had ambushed by an acorn. You're welcome. Florida is pretty compelling in comparison to a traffic stop where everybody's just being super polite. It's like, you know what? I'm gonna exercise discretion today. Just, you know, slow it down.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

One's gonna get more views than the other.

[Michael]

The other thing, too, is, it's hard, you know, you said successful stories, I think is how you phrase it. It's also difficult to gauge success sometimes because there's no way to know unless we have an opportunity to do it one way and then take a time machine back and do it another way. Sometimes it's very difficult to really gauge how successful were we. And that's a big thing with all administrations, especially with funding and stuff. Do we really need more people on the SWAT team? Does SWAT really need this? Does traffic need this? Whatever unit it is? But it's hard to know the effect that we're having sometimes because like, let's say, let's say you're the type of person that doesn't think that police should use dogs. Right. And my team uses dogs. Who knows how many shootings we've prevented.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Because we had the dog there.

[Host]

You can't tell.

[Michael]

But we don't know, you know, so it's hard to like when you have a debate with somebody, it's hard to give them data sometimes. You know, like, well, we, we didn't shoot X number of people this year because of the dog. But you can't, there's no way to quantify that or explain it to somebody.

[Host]

You can't put that on an Excel spreadsheet.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

How did you. I'm assuming it was you that made the decision where you were gonna go.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Seek help. What, what got you to that point where you were. You recognized in yourself, like this is just untenable.

[Michael]

Yeah. It, it took a couple years to, for all. Everything to kind of unravel. So I built that wall. Right. It's a. And I didn't realize I did it, but it's a self defense mechanism. My brain does not want to process the stuff from that day. Right. It doesn't want to feel the emotions, doesn't want to think about it. So. And, and I realized that recently. But it reminds me of when we did a debrief with our, like our counselors. They call it past. It's behavioral. I can't think of the phrase right now. But they're the section, the wellness section in our department that is there to. For therapy and there to. For after critical incidences. Well, you can imagine after an incident like that, they had their hands full. Like there's no way they could. They had a triage, you know, there's no way they could get everybody one on one. So they're going to triage. Who needs the one on one the most?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So for us they just did a group debrief. So they had the whole team come in and they kind of checked in on us. They told us what, you know, they talked about things that we could expect, the maybe experience. And I remember one of the guys raised, raising his hand and saying, I don't feel joy anymore. And it's not because of this specific incident, because this was too fresh, like for him to have had that realization. Yeah, but, but this also isn't the first traumatic experience he's had, you know, so he had been struggling for, I guess, at least some amount of time before the Covenant shooting. And now he's using this as an opportunity to get it out there. And he's like, I don't, I don't experience joy anymore. I don't feel joy in any part of my life and I don't understand why. And the counselor said, well, and that's, she explained what I just tried to explain that it's a self defense mechanism. So in order to prevent you from experiencing all that terrible. It numbs it, but the side effect can be that it numbs everything. And now you don't feel joy at all. It'll, it'll completely block out all emotions.

[Host]

It can really emotionally flatlined.

[Michael]

Yes. And that's, that's ultimately what happened to me. So I start, I start drinking is really, that's, that's what got me to the point where I realized I needed to go get help or it started me down that path. And I realized when I was at the rehab center that I wasn't just drinking alcohol to numb things because I was already, I was already kind of numb. You know, I had that, that self defense mechanism already, but it was to allow me to feel other things. And when I say I, I had a, I, I did have an alcohol problem. I did not consider myself an alcoholic before I went to the PTSD rehab. But coming out of it, I realized, I guess I was, you know, it wasn't affecting my day to day. You know, I was still responsible, still showing up to work. I obviously never drank at work to that point yet, but I realize now that I just hadn't gotten to that point yet, yet, you know, that.

[Host]

What was your drink of choice?

[Michael]

Everything. Honestly, it was everything. I didn't care. Beer. If my wife wanted to drink seltzers, I, I'll admit it, I drink seltzers with her. Wine. Whiskey.

[Host]

Michael. We'll cut that part out just to help him.

[Michael]

But my, my, my point is.

[Host]

Yeah, make a note of that. We're going to help you out there.

[Michael]

Truly's my point. Is I didn't give a. I just wanted. I just wanted alcohol. That's all it was.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I didn't care, man.

[Host]

The delivery mechanism didn't matter.

[Michael]

Did not give a. And. And I realized that was the only way I could experience joy. And it's up when you think about it. But the therapist like kind of broke it down.

[Host]

Is it up or is it a natural side effect of the job that you have it?

[Michael]

It definitely is.

[Host]

That's the realization I've spent. I mean I've been out now for 13 years. No, not 13 years. Got out the last day of June 2013. So just, just over 12 years. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about just the occupation in general. And the only reason my career went the way that it did is because of random luck.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Or, I don't know, divine intervention. Good or bad, depending how you look at it. The generation of guys before me didn't even have the chance to experience combat. But they're the ones who taught me everything that I know. They're rock stars, but I don't think their incidents of post traumatic stress or combat related or just grotesque trauma related issues was probably what it was because they were fortunate enough not to experience those things.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

I don't think you can be in a kinetic job exposed to those things and not have it change you. If it doesn't, I think you're a sociopath.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because I think if you get sick, you're going to get a fever. If you get sick and you don't get a fever, then I think you have a disorder. That's why I don't like the D of the ptsd because I just, I think. And I'm not qualified to diagnose that. But just in my own uneducated personal opinion, I don't think it's a disorder. I think it should be expected. Which begs the question, it should be expected. And then I've asked a lot of guys that I used to work with, do you think they should have put an upper limit to the exposure? Because it has broken people.

[Michael]

It has.

[Host]

And the first people that would tell you that they're fine and that you should never put that upper limit on would be every single one of us because we love the job so much and the fear of missing out or not being there.

[Michael]

There's so many guys that are in denial.

[Host]

Yeah, but then what if you are a completely non functional person? In how long most people end up being police officers for? Is it 20 years? Or do you hit A certain age, and then you're eligible for retirement.

[Michael]

For my agency, it's, it's the age. So I've been on 18 years I'll end up having to do. If I stayed, it's 53 years old, retirement. I'm 42 now, so I'd have to do another 11 years.

[Host]

So let's say you do that, but the rest of your life is a complete and utter train wreck. Yeah, I don't think the guys would ever agree to accept that upper limit. But I am almost of the belief now that the leaders and those that have gone through that and have seen the exposure, it might be the way, and I'm not saying they have to leave the community, but you might have to accept the fact that you have to pass the torch to somebody else, because if you don't, your life is going to be destroyed.

[Michael]

Well, I've got, I've got some statistics we can, that will touch on that. I'm glad you brought that up. I, I, I, I, I don't mean to jump all over the place, but.

[Host]

I do all the time.

[Michael]

I do. That's why, that's why I got this, to keep me on track. I am very passionate about what you're talking about because the, the rehab I went to, it's called Magnolia Meadows, and I'm going to talk more about them. But it saved my life. And I realized there's, there's guys out there that need this information. They need to realize what's going on inside their brain, like the effects that all this stuff is having on them. So I, I just started a, I posted something on YouTube earlier this week, and I'm gonna try to do it every week. Every Monday, I'm calling it Mental Health Mondays. And I'm, I want to showcase the different things, the different parts of the brain that are affected by PTSD just encompass mental health for first responders in military. But the statistics I want to mention, the average person in the United States will experience like 2 to 3, 3 to 4, depending on the study. You look at traumatic experiences in their life.

[Host]

That's a, that's a light week for you guys.

[Michael]

Yeah, the, the average police officer, One study said 178, and then some studies went all the way up to 600.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And that, to me, that just depends on where you're doing the study, because if you work in New York City, the call volume is going to be higher. You're going to have a lot more experiences than someone who's out here.

[Host]

Yeah, a rural PD or so sheriff's office versus inner city Chicago, you're going to have different numbers.

[Michael]

Yeah. But either way, even if we stick to that low number of 178, that's over a 9,000% increase. Or maybe it's 8,000. I had to use a calculator. I didn't just do that in my head. But it's ridiculous. Like, and if we think that that's not going to affect us, we're just kidding ourselves. Like, there's no way that's not going to affect you. Because.

[Host]

Let me guess, the old mantra of your job. Suck it up.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Pick yourself up by the bootstraps.

[Michael]

Yeah. And to an external, you know, like. Yeah. That.

[Host]

Just drown it with alcohol.

[Michael]

Well, that's what we do. That's what so many people do. Or other very terrible coping mechanisms. You know, gambling, drugs. But yeah, it. To a certain extent, I understand. Like, yes, in the moment, if you're, if you're in the middle of an operation. Yes. You got to be able to push forward. And I think everybody that I know in this profession can do that. But once we're done with that, that's when we need to start recognizing what's going inside, what's going on inside our brains, the effects it's having, and seeking the help that, that we need. Because, like, suicide right now is ridiculous. In the United States. I've got those stats here to the. In 2023, 135 people killed themselves per day for a total of 49,316. That's. That's all the entire population of the United States veterans. That goes. I've seen different studies, but I've seen numbers that range from 17 to 22 a day.

[Host]

Yeah. To be honest with you, they don't have a great number.

[Michael]

They probably don't.

[Host]

The 22 a day. If you look at how that number was come across, it wasn't even, it didn't even encompass all 50 state. It was flawed data.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's a number that gets, gets people's attention. I think it might be low.

[Michael]

I, I believe it is. Honestly. A lot of these probably are low. So that means someone killed themselves every 11 minutes in the United States in 2023, cops are more likely to kill themselves than they are to die in the line of duty. I think it's two to three times more likely to kill themselves than, Than the average American.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I don't mean it. I'm not diminishing when I said that the average American will only have two to three Traumatic experiences.

[Host]

That's a good thing.

[Michael]

I'm not diminishing it. Yeah, that is a good thing that they're not experiencing more. But I hope no one hears that. And because I said something to someone the other day and they told me about one of the experiences they had. This is a civilian, and it was actually an email, a customer through my company. And she, she was thanking me and she said, but it's nothing compared to what you've seen. And I had to email her back and say, don't, don't compare the experiences. Like, don't diminish your. Like 2 to 3 will still have an impact on you. Yeah, it's very real. It doesn't mean anything. So. So I. I've come out of that rehab center and I. I feel like I'm supposed to pay this forward. I'm supposed to be. To spread this knowledge as much as I can. So that, that was one of the big reasons why I reached out to you, especially while I was there. That's kind of when I had that revelation. I was like, I need. I need to do something to bring awareness to this. Because there's this culture that you talked about of, you know, whether you want to call it being stoic, whether you want to say it's cultural, like society has put it on us. It's. And we need to destroy it. We need to normalize getting help and not feel like we can't. And some people don't get help because they don't even realize they need it. And that's another problem. We need. We need to make people kind of like, more self aware of themselves. Then there's the guys that don't do it because of the. Because of. They're embarrassed or they're afraid. They're afraid they're gonna lose their job or whatever, you know, all things that are untrue. And then. And then some people just don't know where to go. They don't even know how to begin that conversation. And it takes courage to have that conversation. It takes courage to tell somebody you think you need help. And I think I knew it for a long time because like I said, I realized I was. I was drinking too much. I was drinking just to, like, if my wife and I were having a night off and we wanted to watch a movie or just spend time together, I would drink just so I could feel joy. Like I said otherwise, it was just. I was just numbing.

[Host]

What was the most meaningful? What was. Did you call it Magnolia Meadows? We're going to need to change that for the leo. You need to have like, Slayer Farms or Megadeth factory. I'm telling you right now, the voluntary enrollment would go up.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

If you change it from. Especially in the helio world. If I do, guys, I know they'd be like, Magnolia Meadows. Do you have like, you know, whatever pit bull cave, like, whatever. Call whatever you want to, buddy.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

How long was the treatment?

[Michael]

They. They suggest a minimum of three weeks. Most people are there at least four weeks. It. It's just for law enforcement and military, and it's just for men. That's what makes it so unique. And that may not sound that important to some people, but if you're in that environment with other dudes that went through the same experiences, it makes it. It a lot easier to open up, you know, and that, once again, I'm not diminishing the people that have PTSD or PTSI that aren't LEOs or military.

[Host]

What's the I stand for?

[Michael]

Injury.

[Host]

Oh, okay.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

I've never heard that.

[Michael]

So everybody, anytime you go through a traumatic experience, you will. Like, an injury will occur, and it may not be obvious, you may not feel any different, but the things change in your brain. Chemistry change, hormones change. Things while you were experiencing that changed. And that's. That's what the PTSI addresses, the specific, like, mechanics of that. And then the d. The PTSD is people who have actually developed a disorder, and they're referring to that. So Magnolia is. It's. You live there. You live in this bubble. You have no. No real access to the outside world. They would let me have my cell phone for like, 30 minutes each night. And that's when I emailed you that the second time. And I don't know how to say it other than it just felt like God was telling me, just reach out to him. And I remember thinking, he. Either he's gonna say no, he's not going to respond, or he's gonna, you know, whatever, I got nothing to lose, so I'm just gonna send it. And then you reply, like, right away. And I was like, okay, this is.

[Host]

You caught me in front of my laptop.

[Michael]

This is surprise. This is meant to be. This is meant to be. So.

[Host]

Well, originally we had. You were looking at coming out, and then you went to the treatment facility, and then we reconne afterwards what I've gone through. When I got out of the military, I went to a place called nico, the National Intrepid center of Excellence. And it was the best medical treatment I'd ever received. It was attached to Walter Reed on the East Coast. The reason it was the best medical treatment I'd ever received is it was run by civilians and military medicine. There's a running joke that's not necessarily true. What do you call a guy who graduates medical school with all Ds, what, a Navy doctor? And I'm like, I'm totally tongue in cheek saying this, some of the best medical treatment I've ever received. Just let me make fun of my own people a little bit because I'm gonna get emails for that. But just take it easy, everybody. I mean, everything was in there, but there was a lot of different psychiatrists, psychologists, individual sessions, group sessions, Art therapy didn't respond well to the art therapy some people did, though, surprisingly enough. Yoga, meditation, I mean, all blood work, in addition to any X ray you could possibly want, sleep studies, all that stuff. It was amazing. It was 30 days kind of a bubble as well, but. And we lived there too. But not. No restriction from electronic devices or anything like that. It was not ptsdi, whatever you want to call it, associated at all. It was purely, it was the most robust look under the hood medically that I'd ever received. And that was that. The write up from that actually was the vast majority of the foundation for why I ended up getting medically retired. It was that justification because my medical record was laughably thin because I'd never went to medical. Yeah, like I'll be fine. Or I would just go to a buddy I know. I'm like, can I just get 8,800 milligram motor? And so like, yeah, no problem. Right, here's several sandwich bags. Maybe have some milk with this because you're gonna. Your. Your liver out. But whatever. But when you were in that treatment facility, was there anything that you found any mode or mechanism that was much more impactful for you?

[Michael]

Emdr, God, I've heard about.

[Host]

And that's so, that's break that down. Because I don't even want to attempt to. From what I've heard, it is described as.

[Michael]

Yeah, I can try.

[Host]

Yeah, well, you actually. I've never gone through it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

So I'd rather have you describe what it is.

[Michael]

Yeah, so it stands for eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing.

[Host]

And when you describe this. Because the first. Every time I've heard somebody describe this, a lot of listeners will go, why? Does that work?

[Michael]

Yeah. Or what the fuck did he just say?

[Host]

Yeah, like what, how? And first off, thankfully, there are people out there so much smarter than me who could figure that Out.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because I'll let you describe this. And there is. I'm sorry, if you gave me 100 lifetimes, I'm not coming up with this.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many things like that. Like, who thought of this first? And how do we get to the point where they figured out that it.

[Host]

Works, but also what did they think of along the way that didn't work?

[Michael]

That's a fucked up question. Yeah, I don't know.

[Host]

Yeah. Because we're focusing on the wave top here. What's down in the valley? Yeah.

[Michael]

Well, EMDR essentially is replicating REM sleep. So the way it was explained to me is when we sleep and we go through the REM cycle, our eyes go back and forth. Right.

[Host]

And hence the rapid eye movement.

[Michael]

Yes. And apparently that is when our brain is processing from the day, you know, so if you have memories that you have refused, whether it's because you repress them or suppress them, you have those unprocessed memories in your brain and EMDR helps you get them processed and get them through the brain and stored away. Like, I guess it's like a computer. Like there's once. Once you're in REM sleep, it's like uploading it to the cloud or something. I don't know. That's how they explained it to me.

[Host]

Like unclogging a drain. So you can have.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Host]

That's throughputter. Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Host]

Yeah. Removing particulates or whatever it is that is congesting. Yeah, I've heard it described like that, too. What is it actually like when you're doing it, though? Because this is the part that trips me out.

[Michael]

Yeah, everyone. Because we. Every person that was at the. At the center while I was there or at the facility, we all had our own sessions and some guys would talk about it. So everyone seemed to have a little bit different of an experience, but they have to replicate that eye movement. Right. So I had one therapist try this with me before, and it didn't work. And before I went to the. Before I went to the facility. And I think it was because of how he did it. He did it where he just put fingers in front of me and he said, focus on my. Focus your eyes on my fingers. And I'm just gonna move him back and forth. And he just kept doing this and I was having to keep my eyes on him. So it was creating that eye movement. But you have to be able to let your brain, like, you have to, like, you can't have control over your Own thoughts. You need to just kind of relax. And I found that impossible to do when I'm. When I'm trying to focus on this dude's fingers. Like, my brain is working the entire time following his fingers. So it never really worked. But there. What they did was they put a blindfold over me, they put headphones on, and then they put a paddle in each one of my hands, and the paddles would vibrate on one side, and there'd be a tone in your ear on one side, and they would. They would match up together. So you'd hear a tone in this ear and a feel of vibration here, and then it would go to this side, and it would just go back and forth, back and forth.

[Host]

So you weren't shifting your eyes.

[Michael]

What's weird is I was.

[Host]

Oh, interesting.

[Michael]

Involuntarily, I realized halfway through, like, holy. My eyes are moving. So even though my eyes were closed and I had a blindfold on, I.

[Host]

Could feel my eyes responding.

[Michael]

Yes. It's like a sympathetic, like, response to what it's. I guess the stimulus. So it worked. And then they. They kind of get, like, they. The person. The therapist that's walking you through it, they. They guide you through it. What to expect, how to. Like, this is what we need to do. They. They come up with. I forget what she called it, but it was almost like a. Almost like a safety word. Like, hey, if this gets too real, this is what you say or do. And.

[Host]

Pineapple.

[Michael]

Yeah. But it was. It was like, I'll snap you out of it. Like, we'll. We'll come back if it gets to that point. Because some dudes do get transported back and they're there. Like, one of the guys that was there at the facility said that he. It was like, reliving it, and he had different experiences. He wasn't. Which is kind of coming right.

[Host]

To process.

[Michael]

It is.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I just didn't have that experience. I didn't fully relive it in the sense of, like, that movie.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That you're talking about. I didn't get transported back, but I saw, like, I could see the images again, you know, the stuff that. That I needed to process and do. You don't really. They, like, once you get started, it's quiet pretty much in the room. The therapist really doesn't have to guide you much anymore. They ask you a couple questions, and they get you going. And then the idea is to just let go of your thoughts and just let them wander and go wherever they need to go. And it's Almost like, for me, it was almost like being in that state of sleep, like, right before you fall asleep, you know, so you. You're aware that you're awake, but you're drifting, but you're starting to drift, and things are weird, you know, like, you're starting to have a dream layered in reality, and it's just weird. And that's what it felt like. And I had these memories, and then.

[Host]

How long does it last?

[Michael]

I think it depends on the person. Mine, honestly, I don't know. I don't know how long I was in there. I was exhausted. And they. They warn you afterwards, like, you don't need to really do anything for the rest of the day. You. You're here, so we don't have to worry about you driving. But if you ever pursue another therapist after you leave here, we don't recommend that you drive after this. So have someone, like, drive you home and have a ride ready, because it drains you. And that's probably the best sleep I've ever had in my life. And I'm the type of person that I can't sleep. That's another reason why I would drink alcohol, even though it didn't give me good sleep. I could at least fucking fall asleep. Yeah, but I always have. I always sleep terrible. I have nightmares, wake up, and I still do. But that night, after that, therapy, best night's sleep ever. I woke up the next day feeling more refreshed. I felt like I was a kid again. Like, that's how good my body felt. It was crazy.

[Host]

What do you have nightmares about?

[Michael]

You know, I. That's a good question, because I don't usually remember. And that's what. I find it weird when people say I remember everything about my dreams. I will wake up. Like, just last week, I woke up in the middle of night, sat straight up, and lunged over at my wife. Not, like, in an assaulting way. Like, I, Like, I reached for her and I grabbed her arm, and I did all that before I, like, was fully awake. And of course, fucking scared the shit out of her and woke her up. She's like, what were you. What were you dreaming about? I was like, I don't. I don't know.

[Host]

No play. It'll be like there was a spider on your arm. You got to think fast. If I should have asked in these moments, I can help you with this.

[Michael]

No, I don't. I don't know. I don't remember. It's. I just know I. You know, sometimes I will remember for a very brief moment.

[Host]

And then you have nightmares before you were a cop?

[Michael]

Yes. Not nearly as many. Okay, not nearly as many. So it wasn't every night like it is now?

[Host]

Every night?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Damn, man.

[Michael]

Every night.

[Host]

That sucks.

[Michael]

And when I do remember it, it fades so quick. It's like. And one therapist said, start writing them down. And I. I did try this once. It's exhausting. And especially when all you want to do is just go back to sleep, you know, like, I just want to roll over, forget that happened, and fall back asleep. But I'll. I'll be sitting there trying to write as fast as I can, and it's like, you know, if you're on a boat and you're drifting away from the shore, the details start to, like, drift away. And you can, you know, now you can't see everything. And then eventually it's just completely gone. That's. That's what it feels like. Like, I see this memory as I'm trying to drop down what the dream was about, and I'm. I forgot that. What was that detail? I can't remember. And then it's just. And then it's just gone. And it happens pretty quickly.

[Host]

Do you ever have nights where you don't have nightmares?

[Michael]

I'm sure I do, but it's. It's. It's. It's pretty rare.

[Host]

That's right.

[Michael]

And when I was drinking, the. I guess I don't. I don't want to say I didn't have nightmares, but I wouldn't remember having, like. I wouldn't wake up as much. So there were nights where I would get through the night if I drank without waking up from a nightmare. So I don't know if I had nightmares or not, but the sleep quality was shit.

[Host]

Yeah, because you're passed out. You're not asleep.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. You're not. Actually. I don't think I was hitting rem probably, so I'm just creating more shit I'm going to have to process later.

[Host]

What. What did you talk at the Magnolia place to them about the nightmares at all? What do they have to say about it?

[Michael]

We didn't touch too much on it. I did. They did ask. I told them I don't know. And they just encouraged me to try to start jotting them down. And then maybe we could start, like, dissecting that. But we had so much other stuff to go over. We never really dived too much into it. And it wouldn't have helped anyway because I didn't. I didn't write anything down.

[Host]

Yeah. How did you feel leaving? How'd you know when you were ready to leave? Today's episode is brought to you by Brunt. I had a good portion of my professional life where I had to wear boots, and I didn't get to choose which boots I wore. I did a little bit inside of what was going to be issued to me in the military. I'm past that phase of my life. So now there's two things. Two criteria specifically they have to meet for me. The first one is comfort. I don't care what your boot looks like, what it's designed to do, how awesome it is. If it doesn't feel good, I'm not wearing it. And the second one with that is functionality. I don't care how comfortable it is. If it doesn't do the job that it says it does. If it doesn't protect my feet, then I'm not interested. I had never worn a pair of Brunt boots before. They sent me a pair and thankfully it met both of those criteria. Now I don't have them in front of me to show you, which I will bring them as the temperatures continue to decrease where I live. Just not boot weather right now, but we're getting pretty close to it. They sent me the Omen, which I chose that boot because I've seen a lot of people wear the slip on type without laces, and I never had a pair and now I do, and now I'm kind of looking forward to those colder months. I think they're going to become my helicopter flying shoe. Think about a product that is reverse engineered from the environment that it's going to be used in. That is what Brunt does. These are designed for the harshest environment that you might encounter in a professional job or work site and reverse engineered to deliver that product to you. Brunt was tired of the workwear brands out there cutting corners. You work too hard to be stuck in uncomfortable boots that don't hold up, so they built something better. Boots that are insanely comfortable and built for any job site for a limited time. Listeners are gonna get $10 off at Brunt when you use the code cleared hot at checkout. Just head to bruntworkwear.com direct link in the show notes. Use the code clearedhot and you're gonna be good to go. After you order, they'll ask where you heard about Brunt. Do me a favor and tell them it was from the show. Speaking of the show, back to it.

[Michael]

To answer that, let me tell you how I knew when it was time to go. I Know, I mentioned I was drinking a lot. I was. I was suicidal. And a lot of that goes back to the spiritual warfare stuff. But I knew I was ready to come home because I didn't. I didn't have those thoughts anymore.

[Host]

Did the suicidal thoughts slowly build over time? Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

That has got to be gnarly. I've never been suicidal in my life. I've lost far too many friends to suicide. And I say this every time I talk about it. I know that to them it felt like a rational thought, but to me, it seems like such an irrational act. And that's not a judgment of them.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Host]

Just me saying I struggle to understand how you get to a place where that is the rational solution to you moving forward amongst every other potential and possible solution. I can't. I can't even imagine that thought building because I would imagine it was probably intrusive as well. Not just chilling out in the background, eating popcorn, watching.

[Michael]

No, it is. It is. And to me, that's the Constantine stuff. It's just whispers. Whispers. It starts as a thought, and I don't think rationality plays into it at all. I don't think any. When I. And I'll talk about it in a minute. The actual attempt that I had on my life. Nothing like rationality is not going through your brain at that time. It. For me, and I. I'm just gonna steal an analogy I heard elsewhere. It's. The idea of suicide can start small. And you start thinking about it, you start entertaining the idea, and you think that you can stop it. Like, almost like a snowball at the top of a mountain. Like, I can start rolling this snowball. I'm gonna be able to stop it. And. And it's like 2 inches in diameter, right? But eventually that snowball is going to get so big you can't stop it anymore. And eventually it's going to be an avalanche. And then. And then you find yourself killing yourself. For me, I. This is how I would feel all day. I would feel nauseous and like I needed to cry all day. That's it. And it. It was horrible. And you layer that on top of the nightmares, days where I'm having having flashbacks, and you just get to the point where you just want it to stop, and it's not rational and thankful. I decided I need to go. I need to go talk to somebody. And that was. That was divine intervention, too. And I can talk about that as well. But the day that I. I didn't. I didn't consider myself. I didn't consider that I'd ever actually attempted suicide until I went to therapy and they. They told me that was a suicide attempt because I didn't like when I hear guys talk about, tell their stories about how they almost kill themselves, like they got their gun in the mouth, their fingers on the trigger, and then someone calls them or something like that. It wasn't. It wasn't like that for me. I've been thinking about suicide for a long time. It just kept growing and growing and growing. And now I find myself and I was not going to shoot myself. I did not want anyone to have to deal with that mess. I didn't want to anyway. I was going to kill myself in a traffic accident and I wanted. I wanted to do it in a way that would not hurt other people. Which is interesting because.

[Host]

High speed impact to a stationary object.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. No seatbelt on. Try. Try to. Try to set it up where it was pretty much impossible for me to survive. But I. I did not want. I did not want to hurt other people. But the moment that I tried to kill myself, I would have hurt other people. I found myself at an intersection and I'm having. I'm feeling like. I've told you, like, I've just. I don't want to. I. I can't stop this feeling of dread, of anguish, Just feeling like I'm part of. It's. You feel worthless part of it. You know, when. When Robert Stark talked about his experience, I remember him saying he felt like he was no good. And he had that dog that was with him at the tree. And he was like, go, Go somewhere else. I can't take care of you. You'll be better off without me. All that's going on, man, all that stuff is. Is going through your head. And I just wanted it to end. So I'm. I'm sitting there at this intersection and I. I heard. I heard a voice in my head say, just let go of the break. And I did. I lifted up, like, all. All I needed to do was relax. And this intersection, I don't. It wouldn't have been as guaranteed as me driving 100 miles an hour into a bridge pylon, but I probably would. It would have been terrible and it would have hurt other people as well. But I. I just felt myself like letting go. And then I snapped out of it. I was like. And I slammed on the brake as I, like, right before I went into the intersection. And I would have gotten t boned right in the driver's door. And I was just like, what the. The. Was that? Like, what.

[Host]

Was it your voice or somebody else's?

[Michael]

No, it. I guess it was my voice. I don't know. It was like an audible thought in your head, but it was like when.

[Host]

I hear myself talking to myself in my head, which I do a lot. I don't know if that makes me crazy, but it's in my voice probably. You know what I mean? Like, you're not hearing anything, but I guess the manifestation of what I hear in my head is my voice.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Do you think it was the manifestation of your voice, or do you think it was something else?

[Michael]

I think it was. It's hard to remember because it happened so fast and I wasn't expecting it, and then I had the aftermath of it, but I. I think it was my own voice, but I didn't. I don't know where it came from. Like, it wasn't like I was sitting there and I just had the idea. It was like I'm sitting there thinking about. I think I was heading to the gym. So I'm probably. I was probably thinking about, like, okay, what am I doing in the gym today? Is it chest day? Is it leg day? Like, what? And then suddenly you hear that. That voice, and that's. That Constantine moment. Like, that was fucking spiritual warfare. Like, just. Here's it. Like, just do it. Just let go. All you gotta do is relax. You don't even have to do anything. You do nothing, and we'll take care of the rest for you.

[Host]

I'm no expert on suicide by any stretch, but I've talked to quite a few psychiatrists and psychologists about it. Not my own experiences, but asking questions about others. And they say it becomes a really dangerous point when you start thinking about the actual mechanics that you would use in the execution of.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

That there's a. Not that one is safer than the other, but. But that somebody is at a much higher level of risk once they've started thinking through the actual mechanics.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that too.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. I've had some people in my life that have expressed that they are suicidal. It's an odd question to ask, but asking them, have you thought about how you would actually do that? Thankfully, the answer from all of them has been no, Which I don't think means that they're safe.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

But it.

[Michael]

It.

[Host]

It gave me at least a little bit of hope that there was some more time for an intervention of some kind realization or an action on their part that could change that trajectory.

[Michael]

Yeah, for sure. It definitely is. I'VE heard the same things, you know.

[Host]

Well, damn.

[Michael]

So that's. That's when I, you know, I just. I needed. I needed to do something. And I was at. I was at the. My. My agency's therapist going through, going to like a weekly meeting. And I told them about what was going on and stuff. And they mentioned Magnolia Meadows. And I was like, I don't. What is that? And they said, well, it's here in Tennessee. It's. It's only, you know, like an hour and a half outside, outside Nashville. So I don't know where you live, but, you know, it's. It's probably not a long drive for you. And one of the people that works there is a former. A former officer here, a former sergeant. And I was like, who? And they told me the name. It's Scott Cawthorn. I was like, oh, I know Scott. I remember Scott. Like, he left the department a few. Well, it might been more than a few years, but that's what I mean. Like, it was like divine. Like, I never would have reached out or even researched it if he hadn't said his name. So I texted him that day and I was like, hey, man, are you working at some place for ptsd? And he called me or he said, call me, like, right away. So I called him, talked to him. He asked me some questions. I guess that was kind of like the assessment to see, like, how. How bad off I was. And he said, man, we need to get you in here, like tomorrow. Can you be down here tomorrow? And I said, nope, sure can't. Are you fucking kidding me? I gotta talk to my department and.

[Host]

Let them know where I'm going to clear my schedule.

[Michael]

You're talking about me going there and staying there for a month. I gotta figure out who's gonna cut my grass. I gotta make sure my wife's okay with it, make sure that work is okay with it. And it turned out everything was fine. Insurance covered it. I just took fmla. So I just used my sick time to go down there. Everyone was very supportive of it. Looking back on it, someone made a comment, they're like, well, they had to be supportive of it. They don't have a choice. Which, maybe that's true, but either way.

[Host]

An essence of truth to that.

[Michael]

Yeah, but either way, it felt. It felt genuine for my supervisor and everything. And so it was the encouragement I needed. I was like, all right, okay, it. Let's figure this out. So I think I talked to Scott on a Friday and I was admitted. My wife drove me down there. My wife and kids drove me down there the next Wednesday. And then, then I began, began the journey.

[Host]

How long ago did you leave?

[Michael]

This was, I believe like the second week of June or middle of June. So I was there in the middle of June, in the middle of July.

[Host]

So very recently.

[Michael]

Oh yeah, I just, yeah, I've only been home for a couple weeks.

[Host]

How is the reintegration to your team?

[Michael]

I haven't gone back yet. I haven't gone back yet. I'm still taking FMLA time right now, so I don't, not all. I'm worried about that. And that's, that was one of the things they talked about when I was there. They said that some of the, the triggers that could, like I hate using.

[Host]

That word, but fortunately it's accurate.

[Michael]

Yeah, but, yeah, it is. And they were trying to prepare, they're trying to set us up for success. And they said, you know, there's certain things that you may encounter that are going to be very difficult and could trigger you. And some of them were obvious, like another call with a injured child, any kind of traumatic experience like that. But one of the things they said was dealing with co workers after, like post treatment and the expectations that come with that because some guys had no idea that I had a problem. I haven't talked to everybody on my team, so I'm sure there are some stigmas around it. I don't know what everyone's thought, so part of me is worried about that. Like, what are they gonna do? They think I'm not fit to do this job anymore. You know, there's, there's, there's just a lot of unknowns with that stuff. But some guys have reached out and they've been super supportive and, and like I've come public, obviously I'm doing this interview. I, I've posted stuff on social media because I'm trying to get the awareness out there. So I just, I leaned into it and you know, if they accept it, great. If they don't, then we'll just. Hopefully they'll come around, I guess.

[Host]

But is there been the thought that you may not be able to do the job anymore?

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, that thought has crossed my mind. I just haven't figured all that out yet.

[Host]

Yeah. And I don't think that you can, but the reality is your job, like we already discussed. Right. Nobody's calling for their best days.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And you don't get to pick the calls. So I mean, I think to me an even better question is how many guys out there are Dealing with the same stuff and they're just eating it.

[Michael]

That's why I'm leaning into it. That's why I'm. Yeah, that's why I'm shouting it. It's, you know, it's not for attention. If anything, this is fucking embarrassing. I don't want to be telling people what's embarrassing.

[Host]

Well, it's 0% of what you're talking about.

[Michael]

It should be. You are correct. It is not embarrassing. But there's. Whether it's my programming, growing up, whatever societal norms, it's. It's the same as crying. Like, I know it's okay to cry, but I still don't want to cry.

[Host]

Do you shower?

[Michael]

Yeah, I have. I definitely have.

[Host]

Who's to say if you're crying or you're just washing your hair? You know, either way, it's.

[Michael]

It's uncomfortable to come out with these things. It's uncomfortable to talk about them. The only way, the only reason I'm able to say any of these things to you right now without bursting out into tears is because I've. I've spent the last month doing it at that facility. Like, Michael cries all the time, constantly. I'm surprised I'm not crying right now, actually.

[Host]

We keep the tissue over with him. He needs it more than the guest. If any of those guys judge you for going to get help them.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I mean, that's a rough, really, really rough way to put it. But if they don't deal with their own stuff, it's coming for them one day too. There are some outliers. There are some people. I always talk about stress and, you know, volumes of cups. Like, you have a water. What are these things? 12 ounces. This is probably a 16. Some people are shot glass. Like, you know, I don't want to use any names, but like shot glass, you know, 12 ounce, 20 ounce. The same experience is gonna blow over a shot glass for somebody. And then there's people out there with like a redneck guzzler 64 ounce, 711 container. And they can handle their stress and they have healthy mechanisms. And it's like they're wearing a teflon suit. Those people are the absolute minority. But I do believe that they're out there for everybody else. Man, if you don't manage it, it's going to come and it's going to eat your lunch.

[Michael]

Yeah. It's going to manifest one way or another. You can't, you can't stop it. There are some guys, like you said, that are the outliers and it's okay to be okay. I'm not saying everybody's going to have problems, but it's also okay to take.

[Host]

A look under the hood before the engine caution light comes on.

[Michael]

And a lot of guys don't even recognize when it's on. That's. That's what I've seen. And one example would be. And if this guy realizes that I'm talking about him, I, like, don't take this the wrong way. There's no offense meant by it, but I remember there was. There was an issue with two team members a couple years back. It was after Covenant. It was right after Covenant. And I remember pulling one of them aside, saying, like, what. What the going on? Like, what? You are on a rampage right now. What are you pissed about? And he told me the issue that he was having with this other. This other dude. And he kept. He kept reassuring me. How did he word it? He said, the stuff we just saw at the school, that doesn't bother me. I don't lose sleep over that. I lose sleep over this. Like, this. This is like the way this guy's acting and he's. He's challenging my integrity. And like, this. This makes me angry, basically, is what he's saying. He use those words. But. And I didn't know it at the time, I wish I had, because I would have pointed it out to him, but it never even occurred to him that that is affecting you. That's why you're so pissed about this. It's manifesting over here. This is ridiculous. This is nothing to be angry about. This is all a misunderstanding. But you already. You're raging right now and you, like, you don't think it's because that's having an effect on you. I think so. But that's just a small example, you know, like, it's gonna. It's gonna find its way out one way or another.

[Host]

Drama. The real lives of whatever. Nashville PD swat. I'd watch that show.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Speaking of the show swat, have you seen the documentary movie?

[Michael]

Oh, you talking about the old one from 2004?

[Host]

You're not.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

You guys generally repel out of a Huey on directly onto the target building roof where hostages are being held, right?

[Michael]

Yes. With shotguns.

[Host]

Shotguns. Well, he had an ar. I think it was an ACOG too. Right through the upper trap.

[Michael]

Okay, sure.

[Host]

Because he shot the hostage.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

He had to make a move.

[Michael]

No, that's a very entertaining movie and unfortunately not accurate at all.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Although I wasn't. I wasn't On SWAT back then, at least I was still in college.

[Host]

Just like the movie. Navy seals. Not. No.

[Michael]

Yeah. Charlie Sheen. Yeah.

[Host]

I wish. Yeah. That's. I've. There's two buckets of pressure or weights on. I would describe at the scale of you reintegrating, and this is me not even remotely in your situation, but there's a pressure that you're going to put on yourself, and then there's that. Your teammates looking at you, and that's not judgment, but the world you come from is performance based on. Yeah, that's what matters, dude. If you can perform the way that you did before, I don't think you're gonna have an issue.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

The. The pressure on the bucket of you wondering what they think or being concerned about what they think. Do they still think of me the same way? I think that one could be heavier. I think if you can perform, that's all that matters. And you could go back and be honestly one of the most powerful advocates for what you went through. Excuse me. Because of your own experience.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

To me, that is how culture shifts. It's not the leaders talking about, hey, go get yourself checked out. If you're not feeling great, it's the leader who has to step aside for a little bit to make sure that. I mean, the job you guys have is heavy. It comes with a cost. I'm sorry. It just does. And that check's gonna get cashed at some point. Point in time, you know, you might have bought yourself now enough time to get that to retirement. Maybe not, though. You know, at the same time, I mean, you'll be okay. I think so. I feel like you still know how.

[Michael]

To clear a room, practice at your.

[Host]

House, get some Nerf guns, go to town with your kids.

[Michael]

Yeah. I have done that with my kids, especially when they're younger, and I could convince them that it was fun.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody likes to play paintball with me either. I think you'll be okay.

[Michael]

I hope so. I think so.

[Host]

Just imagine the power of the message, though, of they know you. They knew you before you left for treatment. They see you come back. Especially if you can be a better version of yourself.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Host]

What could possibly crack the door more for opportunity for those people to make that first step as well. Those are the people that I respect the most, the ones that. I mean, I. I mean, you listen to what people say, but I pay attention far more to what they do.

[Michael]

Right. Actions. Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. So, man.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's. And then now that I'm out, too, it. I Have to, it takes work, you know, because it'd be easy to slip like that. That's what they're talking about, like relapsing, like for sure. To slip back into your old thoughts, slip back into drinking. You have to find some kind of outlet. You need to be very self aware of your own thoughts. That's a big one. And for me it's, it's looking at things through that, that spiritual warfare lens again, you know, so when I hear intrusive thoughts or stuff like that, I have to recognize it and stop it. But finding some kind of therapy like you talked about, art therapy, stuff like that.

[Host]

For me, for clarity, I said that it did not land with me.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

Painting masks of which I covered mine in dicks.

[Michael]

I wish I had thought of that. We did stuff like that when we were at the facility. But. And I didn't, I played along. I didn't. I wasn't disrespectful by any means, but I did not get really anything out of it. I really struggled with it. I'm just, I'm not very artistic with that stuff.

[Host]

Not either. Like creativity wise. If you ask me to design a T shirt, it's not going to be great.

[Michael]

Yeah. So that has been an outlet for me is designing T shirts really. Yeah.

[Host]

Okay.

[Michael]

So before all this happened, I started my own company, which initially was supposed to, or not supposed to be. My goal was to train dogs. Like basically teach other departments how to integrate dogs successfully. Like fully integrate them. Not like, hey, we just bring the dog up to the target and then cut them loose. Like you can do full CQB runs from breach point to index with the dog.

[Host]

Are your dogs detection or attack or not attack?

[Michael]

For swat, they're just apprehension dogs. Our department, our agency has bomb dogs, narcotic dogs for the bomb squad and the interdiction units and then the canine unit itself. They're cross trained. So we'll do both. But we've seen the value of, of training the dogs to be fully off lead when the situation is, is appropriate for. That's one of the big criticisms I'll hear. People will be like, how do you. Like you can't do that like legally. Well, you can't just on every single call dog bite people. Of course not. But if the situation fits the policy and it makes most sense tactically, then I'd rather, if that means we only do it once in a blue moon, I'd rather still have that capability for when we actually need it. But that was the goal because I've seen so many agencies that, in my opinion, misuse their dog. And this. This has hurt some feelings before. So I. I don't mean any disrespect by it, and I'm not. I'm not calling out any agencies, so don't take it that way, but I've seen dogs get killed when I. They did not need to get killed. And it's because they just. They use the dog incorrectly. And that's one of those. Like. Like, for example, if you send your dog, like, let's say we're. We're in this building and we know that there's someone in here that is a threat, they're going to try to kill us when we find them. Why would I send a dog as a canary into that room by himself? He can't defend himself against lethal force, right? If that guy's got a gun, he's gonna lose. So what good does that do other than communicate to us information like, okay, there's a guy in there. Well, now we've lost the dog. Is there another way we could figure that out? Do we have drones? We do. I. Nowadays, it seems like every department could get them if they wanted to, to have that capability, but we talking.

[Host]

Like, DJI stuff, essentially. I'm sorry, DJI is just a commercial drone manufacturer that make all the Mavic stuff, and.

[Michael]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So our. I know when I've. The few times I've gotten the privilege to watch the Navy train, I got to speak to their drone operators. Theirs are all, like, analog for obvious reasons. Ours are. Yeah, ours are manufactured, but they're. I think they're modified. The guys that run them on our team do some stuff to them. They're really smart. I don't even understand it.

[Host]

But where's the information getting piped down to? Is it just the controller or is it getting broadcast? Can more people see it than just the guy flying the drone?

[Michael]

Everybody can see it. It wants to. Usually it's the team leaders and the command that are watching it, but everybody has access to it if they want to.

[Host]

Just pushing down, like an ATAC system.

[Michael]

Yep. Yeah, yeah, we got it. We can have a live feed on our. On our phone.

[Host]

So be careful with overwhelming yourself with information.

[Michael]

No, no, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Host]

Like, oh, that's me on there. Who's that guy? Oh, shit. It's true. You can. It's almost like you have the BFTs on there, the Blue Force trackers, and, you know, seeing people waving and you're like, hey, dude, let's get our head back in the game. Yeah, you can wave at the drone on a practice run.

[Michael]

But using that, like, using technology like that, whether the agency has robots, like, do something other than sacrifice your dog. Because even if we don't care about the dog, let's, let's, let's create a scenario here where it's gonna sound heartless, but it's, it's for the, the purpose of like, illustrating it. If we don't give a shit about the dog, it still doesn't make any sense to me because if, if, now we know somebody's in there, if I'm gonna go in there, I would rather go in there with the dog than to go in there without the dog. You know, if, if there's a dude and he's waiting on, on that threshold and he's just, he's just holding his rifle on it, I want to fuck with his OODA loop as much as possible. Oh, yeah, you know, if we've got flashbangs, do everything we can to disorient him. But when we're actually going through that door, I would like his OODA loop to go down to see a dog. Oh, shit, there's a dog. Then the, the first couple guys coming in, and before he knows it, there's a dog and four dudes and his OODA loop has to process all that and make a decision, and then that dog can get there quicker than we can. Right. So let's say he's, if he's a lethal threat, then we're probably going to address him or we are going to address him immediately. But just those couple seconds can make a huge difference. Him going down to the dog, making that decision, who's he going to shoot? It just makes sense to me to not send the dog to his death now.

[Host]

Especially when you get tear gas. Him.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, there's so many tools that people don't think about that they could use instead of just sacrificing the dog. But, but let's be real. Most, most agencies aren't the military. They're not special ops. They don't have an endless funnel of dogs coming down the pipe. Right. So, yeah, if, if we lose a dog, it's going to take us at least six months to replace that dog, sometimes a year. That when my third dog retired, it took me a year to get operational with another dog again. Because we went and got one dog, we made it quite a way through training, and then we had to wash them out and we had to start all over again. So it's. It's a. About six months of training, so. And then there's the money aspect of it, too. And that's the part that I meant when I said, this isn't meant to sound heartless, heartless, but I think you need to consider all that stuff, like, the heartache of losing the dog. That's. That's tragic. Most people care more about the dogs and the. You know, optically in society, they cry more when a dog, Police dog, gets killed than they do when an officer gets killed. So everyone cares about the dog. No one wants that dog to die. So why. Why would we do it? It doesn't make any. It doesn't make any sense. So. So that was the goal of the company when I started. It was to try to educate guys and, like, hey, maybe there's another way to do this. It doesn't mean you have to do it every time. If you don't want to send your dog through, like, off lead and CQB every single time, you don't have to, but at least understand when it might be appropriate and have the knowledge and the training to do it when it is. And then it grew into canine medical. So that guy that is like, my spiritual mentor, Bart, he came up to me one day after I started the company, and he's like, hey, do you ever. You ever want to teach canine, like, medical like we do on the team? I was like, well, I never really thought of it, but, yeah, you're right. That makes a lot of sense. Like, the whole goal of this company is to try to, like, preserve life, because it's not just preserving the dog's life or our lives. It's actually preserving the suspect's life or has potential to preserve the suspect's life. Because if. And I can give you examples of times where the dog kept us from having to do lethal force because he closed that distance so fast that that person wasn't able to pick the gun up that was sitting right next to them, you know, so it's preserving life in general. Yeah, let's do medical, man, that. That's brilliant. So we expanded into that and then. And then, like, that creative outlet I was talking about, it's almost therapeutic for me. I just started designing T shirts, and I had a. I have an Instagram account to, like, promote the. The training and stuff. But I was like, I'm just gonna put a few T shirts up there and see what happens, and people start buying them. I was like, man, this is Fun. And it's. I found that it was very, very therapeutic for me. So art therapy didn't work, but that did. And then just got to find the right expression. Yes. And I had another realization. So when you posted the interview with Robert Stark, I was actually at the facility. So I remember one night, because they let us have freedom at night. We didn't have the Internet, but we had access to streaming TV. So I was able to get on YouTube. That was like my only line to the outside world.

[Host]

That could be a very dangerous line to reality in the outside world.

[Michael]

I remember, I remember watching it and he was, you know, he's an author. So when he was talking about writing his, about his experiences, I thought, because they kept telling me, you should journal. You need to journal that. It's a great expressive way to. It's therapeutic. And I'm just not a journaler. Like, I just. So I was like, well, maybe I could write a book. Maybe I should start writing stuff. So I don't know if I'm ever gonna find a publisher or self publish it. I don't know if I'll ever even finish it. But I started writing a book and it's about a lot of this stuff, like just kind of putting it into some kind of organized format for people to read. And it's a mixture of experiences from the job to spiritual warfare. And when I've had downtime lately, that's. I've just been working on that and that's been awesome. Very therapeutic.

[Host]

Do your guys dogs in the training runs, they ever give you a little nip as they come?

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

Bastards.

[Michael]

Sometimes it's. Yeah, sometimes it is that, like, it's frustration and sometimes it's. It's the, the operator's fault, dude.

[Host]

I remember sitting on helicopters and just like looking over and there's a dog with just full doggles and the ear pro and his vest and he's just smiling. I'm like, oh, you're gonna bite me again, aren't you? They would get so pumped. Oh yeah, start jocking up.

[Michael]

Yeah, they know, they pick up on all that stuff. They. Dogs are fascinating because they will pick up on things that you don't even realize you're doing. And so if, if they go do a run or they go on an operation, they remember everything that happened leading up to that. So if they start seeing those things again, they're gonna be, oh, we're gonna go do that thing that we did the other day. And that was fucking awesome. I can't wait.

[Host]

Like Fully latched on. When you're in the train, just give you a little nick like you muzzled run.

[Michael]

So did you guys never. Did you always do non muzzled runs?

[Host]

It was a combination. Oh man. I've seen some guys running across the field for, you know, bite training and halfway across the field the muzzle comes off.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Host]

Stand by to get some. Oh, he wasn't in a dog suit.

[Michael]

That sucks.

[Host]

That's a helicopter ride to the hospital.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Trying to put your arm back together.

[Michael]

Especially an open hit like that.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah. Cuz that dog is. That's a fire and forget missile.

[Michael]

Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. To them it's all a game. They don't even.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You know, some dog, they have personality. Some dogs are mean. But I like my dog is not mean. He's one of the friendliest dogs ever. But he's vicious. And it's because it's just a game to him that, that he's playing. He's got. We tap into that prey drive, you know.

[Host]

You ever seen the dogs with the titanium slugs and their canines heard about it?

[Michael]

I think we have a dog in our department that may have a titanium tooth. Now not on the team, but in the department you just.

[Host]

What you need to do is get like an 8 by 10 glossy headshot of that. And if you have a like a barricaded shooter, just slide the picture under as many doors as you can find and be like, hey, we're gonna be back in 10 minutes with this guy.

[Michael]

You might want to rethink your life.

[Host]

Choices so you can come out the front door or the back door, hands up. Otherwise you're gonna meet Butch or whatever the dog's name is. I'd be like, no, I'm coming right out right now. I don't want any part of a dog with titanium canines.

[Michael]

So obviously I know you're joking about sliding the stuff under the door, but the dog, not really.

[Host]

I'm open to new tactics here.

[Michael]

The presence alone has dramatically decreased. So you know, before I talked about. It's hard to prove like statistics sometimes or show success. Our use of force in general have gone down over the last couple years since we started integrating the dogs. And can I prove that it's because of the dog? I guess not, but. But it's a weird coincidence.

[Host]

No person wants any part of that smoke.

[Michael]

Most of the time sometimes because yes, the crazy people. But I've seen a few same people that were that. I don't know if they just thought we were bluffing or didn't think we'd ever come get them, but. And one. So let me tell you this story. So this, this demonstrates that, but it also demonstrates like, how it can be the operator's fault too when they get dog bit. So we get called. This, this, this guy had fled from like Utah or something to Tennessee and he had kidnapped, raped and stabbed his ex girlfriend and left her for dead. And obviously they had warrants for him. So long story short, call gets sent to other jurisdictions. Everyone's looking for him. They pin him down. They know he's in this house, he's not coming out. So we get called. So we, we introduce a drone. The drone gets to its loa. This is like a three story house. Clears everything it can, doesn't find them. There's a few closed doors though, and, and they're convinced season. Like we saw him in there and he like, he looked out a window or whatever. So we start clearing and we clear off lead. So as soon as the breach is made at the front door, I let my dog go. And he knows what to do. Like he's. He starts working his way up the stack and right before he gets to the breach point, a dude slips and falls right in front of him. Now the dog does not. Like, there's a misconception that the dog knows who is who on the team based on what they're wearing in the uniform. That's. That's not it. Like, it's.

[Host]

That guy became a hot dog.

[Michael]

He did, he did. And I don't want to like reveal tactics or how we train him, but he no longer was communicating that he was a team member. He's on the ground and he looks like a decoy. So my dog is like, sweet, this was a short one. And just latches onto him and I'm like. Because there's a lot going on right now. Like, yeah, we're trying to. Like, this is a. This is, this is not training.

[Host]

Yes.

[Michael]

There's a guy in here who may be trying to ambush us. So we need to fix this now. We don't need to like stall out. So guys keep clearing, keep pushing past. I get up there and I get the dog off immediately. That guy stands up and we keep clearing. And the dog just now ignores him. Like, now he's acting like a team member again. So now he starts working with the team.

[Host]

But the guy didn't forget.

[Michael]

Yeah, he still hadn't forgotten. No, he's got some. He has some gnarly scars to prove it.

[Host]

He might not get a Christmas card.

[Michael]

That year, he understood. He was like, man, I'm sorry. It wasn't his fault. It wasn't his fault. It was mine.

[Host]

Because he's limping his way.

[Michael]

He was a trooper. He ended up, actually, that guy, that officer ended up being in the room that they found the suspect in. And when my dog made the apprehension, he was in that room. So it just shows, like, the dog. Yeah, like, it just shows that, like, their capability and what they're like, what they're doing.

[Host]

I don't know why it lit up. You're good.

[Michael]

So. So, yeah, it.

[Host]

You're telling a story about how it. The. The outcome. Crazy people doing crazy stuff.

[Michael]

So, yeah, that guy just. To me, he wasn't. He was not crazy. That was just a dude that didn't, I guess, call their bluff or. Or just didn't care. He was like, it. I'm not.

[Host]

And the dog found him, though, so he.

[Michael]

He was hiding in, like. Of course it's the last room, because we. But it literally was. I think this was the last room in the house to check. And he was behind, like, some duct work from the AC unit. And one of the guys sees him, like, as they pop the door, and he starts giving them commands, and he's refusing. He's refusing to come out. So they start calling for my dog. And this. This shows, like, the benefit of having a dog that's off lead, that's fully integrated because I am now free to operate. Right? So I think there was three rooms on this third story of the house. I'm in the far right room. They're in the far left room calling for the dog. The dog's in the second room, searching. So another team member just grabs my dog, picks him up by the suitcase handle and runs him over to the right room and throws them through the door. And then they direct the dog into the closet, and then they're able to get the dog, get that guy out of there safely without exposing, like, exposing themselves unnecessarily. And then as soon as he was dog. But he started complying, started crawling out with the dog. So, you know, it's. It's. It. That guy wasn't crazy. There are times where they are crazy, and you'll. You'll enjoy this one. There was a guy. This is mental health. Like a mental health call where he said he was gonna go into a goodwill and shoot everybody. Police get called, patrol get there, and he. He's homeless, and he's positioned himself in the woods, and he's got a gun. So we eventually get called because they want to. They need to do a mental health evaluation at a minimum on this guy, right? Like, he's like, papers have been signed by the state. Like he has got to go get evaluated. So. So we have a legal, like, standing to be there, aside from the liability of if we just leave what, you know what, what happens when he goes into the goodwill and shoots everybody?

[Host]

Totally.

[Michael]

So we get there and he, he does shoot at police and we eventually go, we go get the guy. And he had positioned himself in a latrine, basically, like this was a homeless camp where a bunch of people had been using to take a. For who knows how long. But we didn't realize it. No one knew that this was a pile of shit. From a distance, it just looked like dirt and mud. And we come up with a plan. We don't want to expose the dog unnecessarily, right? Like, I don't want to just send the dog in on this guy who, when he's got a gun. So let's throw a flashbang at him. Let's hit him with a 40 millimeter launcher with a direct impact round, try to disorient him. And it worked. Hit him and it like, it made him drop the gun temporarily. And then my dog was, you know, able to close the distance as we're running up and immobilize his arm. Unfortunately, it wasn't the arm that could reach for the gun, but it still gave us enough time. And he ended up. He ended up reaching for that gun and he forced, he forced the team to shoot him. But we immediately like go in and start trying to do medical on him. And that's. And I gotta, I get my dog off him. And that's when we realized that it. It's just all like, this is. I am knee deep in. My dog's covered in. So I get my dog and I walk out and. And I'm not laughing at the gravity of the situation, but just think about this for a second. Like, what, what would you do? What do you do as me now? I'm covered in. My dog's covered in. Do you. What, do you put him in your car so you can go get cleaned up so he can get all over your car?

[Host]

Well, first you have to strip naked and burn everything you're wearing.

[Michael]

Pretty much what I had to do.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I had to have the fire department hose me down, but I still had to hold my dog. I couldn't put him anywhere.

[Host]

Wash. Yeah, I would walk into the nearest car wash. It was suds him up with one of those little brushes.

[Michael]

It was horrible. It was a fucking nightmare. The fire department tried to hose the dog down as best they could, but, Yeah, a lot of things got thrown away.

[Host]

God.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, there's plenty of situations. Absent that dog, your only option there would probably be lethal, especially if he had already shown the willingness to shoot at you guys. I mean, I'm sorry, there's just, you know, there's limited responses to that. Do you guys use shields?

[Michael]

We have them. We. It depends on the situation. We don't use them in cqb. I know some guys will. Some teams will have that, and they like. It's like a snake going.

[Host]

It's like hit or miss. Yeah. Some departments use them, some don't. I have no experience with the shield. I mean, I know what it is, obviously, but.

[Michael]

Right. We use them when it makes. When it makes sense. We have those. What does the name of that company? Tier One.

[Host]

Oh, I don't know.

[Michael]

I don't. I can't. I'm drawing a blank right now. But we have. We have one of those shields that, like, you can put two together on a dolly so you can move it around and position it wherever you need to. So. So that day they had one of those in the woods. So the negotiators could be behind that and try to, like, talk to this guy.

[Host]

Are those things rated for rifles?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Good.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

When has your relationship with Faith shifted back?

[Michael]

It absolutely has. When I was at the rehab is when it started to finally come back. And it happened almost immediately. It was like, finally my heart opened up to it. Like, that hardness, whatever you want to call it, was finally dissipating. And I let God in and I could. I can literally feel it. Like, it's. It's. It's a strange sensation when you feel it. It's like. It's like this warm pins and needle feeling when. Like, whenever I feel God's presence, like, that's what it feels like to me. Like, I just feel it completely go over my body. And I felt it today right before I came over here, because I was like, I don't know. I don't know what we're going to talk about. I don't know if I'm going to find the words to say, but, like, just help me get through this and. And say whatever it is that you think I need to say. And I just, like, immediately felt it, and I was like, okay, I'm doing the right thing by doing this, because I know that there could be backlash from this interview or people may not like some of the things I'm saying, but it just kind of gave me that encouragement. Like, yeah, you just, you're good.

[Host]

What would you estimate the backlash would be? Talking about? The very heavy and real consequences of the occupation. I mean, I don't, to a certain.

[Michael]

Extent my agency does not like us to like, I can't say the name of my agency for obvious reasons. And I get, I get that like they don't want to because they don't know what I'm gonna say, you know, so the general rule is you can't say where you work because they don't want you to say something crazy or something that would represent the department in a negative way. So. I understand that. But you know, I don't, I don't know if they're going to be upset that I came on here and talked about any of the like Covenant or talking about the police calls that I've been on.

[Host]

But you don't need to sit down with you to talk about Covenant. Michael was able to find the video in like 30 seconds.

[Michael]

Right. I mean, it's, it's silly when you think about it, but yeah.

[Host]

If you could change policing, if they, you know, made you king for a day and you could change policing even larger than your own department but like nationwide, what would you change about the occupation?

[Michael]

I'd be hard to just pick one thing, but I guess you don't have to live.

[Host]

You don't limit it to one thing.

[Michael]

Definitely the, that culture of macho, you know, I, I can't seek help. That, that's the, that's probably the number one thing, the first thing I would change because, you know, lots of guys, they talk about optimizing themselves. Be the best version of yourself that you can be. It's very hypocritical if you're not willing.

[Host]

Cops talk like that. Do I need to bring up the thick blue line again?

[Michael]

Not all cops. The culture that I'm around, the guys I work with especially.

[Host]

Let me ask you this. As a law. Let's get you in trouble. As a law enforcement officer, how can you not grab. What's the correct word? Sub optimal bmi, law enforcement officers and shake them and say, do you not understand your job? Do you not understand that when people call 911 they need the best version of whatever it is you have and you can't see your dick when you're naked?

[Michael]

Yeah. Well, to be fair, and I agree, like obviously we're not being fair.

[Host]

Let's get you in trouble.

[Michael]

Obviously, I take that stuff serious. Take health serious. I try to. I try to stay physically fit enough to do my job as well.

[Host]

But your job requires you to touch other human beings in moments where they might be in a mental health crisis. Might be stopping a crime, might be saving a life. Might be.

[Michael]

Might be saving your own life.

[Host]

Saving your own life. It requires the number. Michael Google suspect running from fat cop. Let's just see how long it takes for us to find an example of this. You know, it's a part. But here's the thing. Like, trust me, I'll make fun of my own community just as much. They know that that is a part of the job. How can you put your Batman suit on knowing that you're more likely to die. Fucking heart attack. Chasing somebody. And you're just not doing the job that the public expects of you. How is that tolerated?

[Michael]

Did you find a clue?

[Host]

Oh, whoa. What's this guy? Little B and E? That's a coffee shop. That's rude. They don't have any money. Oh, look at that guy. That's a big boy. What are you doing?

[Michael]

He's trying to get in, I think.

[Host]

Oh, is he trying to go under the bar?

[Michael]

Yeah, I guess. It looks like they're going to clear it.

[Host]

All right, so this is a new tactic that. Okay, good stripper pose. Getting base. Well, I think there's some really good ones.

[Michael]

Oh, I'm sure there are.

[Host]

And I mean by like the instant the person runs, I'm like, you're free. You can't outrun a radio, but that guy's not catching you.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, you're free. For the next few moments.

[Host]

My favorite is. Is the. What should we call it? The mamoose or the large land animal where the suspect takes off and then you some see some dude who clearly takes their job seriously. Coming from out of frame, just like. Yeah, Tom cruising it.

[Michael]

And then just scoop and yeah, Terry Tatum. And into the ground. Yeah.

[Host]

And then after that, after you cuff the dude, you should look over to your buddy who does the same job and be like, what the man?

[Michael]

I was gonna say. Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I think. And then this isn't gonna be for every. Every fat officer out there, but I think about some of the stuff we've talked about. So if usually the overweight officers are usually older. Right. They're. They've been on for a few minutes. Maybe not.

[Host]

I don't know. I got a few data points.

[Michael]

Maybe. Maybe I'll not help My own argument here, but I think there are some, and probably more than not, that are suffering from some of the stuff we've been talking about.

[Host]

100.

[Michael]

And for them, food. And that's one thing I learned while I was there, because it's not for me, it's not one of my addictions. But I learned that food is a very difficult coping mechanism to kick because you. Everyone has to eat. So it's like if you become addicted to food and it's easy for us to say, oh, just work out, man. Or just eat. Eat healthy, eat organic. But it's not that easy for those people. Just like. I can't relate to that. Just like some people can't relate to what I talked about with.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Wanting to kill myself. Like, if you're not there, you're not there, thankfully. But if you're not experiencing that food addiction or that. And that's your coping mechanism for all this that you're repressing and suppressing up here, it can. It can lead to that stuff.

[Host]

My issue, my word number. I don't have an issue with it. My worry with that, though, is I have to believe that somebody who has let it go to that point, they know they're not as capable at the job. That's what I'm saying. So they're fighting an internal and an external battle.

[Michael]

Imagine what that must feel like.

[Host]

It's gotta suck.

[Michael]

Yeah. And they gotta be. They have some form of depression over it. I guarantee it.

[Host]

But then on top of that, though, the department is absorbing, I would imagine, some liabilities.

[Michael]

Liability is an interesting topic because there's a lot of things that go on that. Like some. Like the. You're right. The issue that. That comes into play, at least with our department, is I think the standard was never established. It's like. So they can't hold them accountable for. If that makes sense. Like the unions get involved.

[Host]

But it's. Well, because your organization, your operation or not your operation, your occupation, as my old one was, it can be driven down to some pretty precise standards. Shooting standards, physical standards, combine all those. Whatever other kind of knowledge standards, all of those things, especially as you move through departments or specialties, they could be done. Those standards could be created. And I understand that there's risk on both sides. You might go afoul of the union or you might go afoul of the public, which is going to terminate in a public lawsuit as well. Neither of those sound great to me.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

So there's risk either way. I just. Man, that is a Rough.

[Michael]

Look, yeah, I agree. I agree. And I feel bad for those guys and. But yeah, I think some of it is. It's just not as simple as. For them, at least it's not as simple as saying, like, we'll just stop doing what you're doing.

[Host]

Yeah, just completely change everything in your life, dude.

[Michael]

And. And think about it too. Especially because an officer like that probably is not on a tactical team. Maybe they are, but they're probably either in patrol or an investigator. My point is their work hours are not that mine are, but it's. The job sets you up to eat unhealthy. You have to really be proactive not to. I mean, I'm not saying it can't be done. I eat healthy and it requires meal prepping. It requires bringing a big ass yeti to work every day that people make fun of me for. But I don't have to eat out because I've got everything I need right here nutritionally. But it takes that. That kind of level of commitment that not everybody has. So when you're in a job that you're working, I mean, Sometimes we work 90 hours a week. So, I mean, think about that for a second. It's pretty easy to just hit a drive through, you know, when do you have time to cook?

[Host]

Yeah. So I get it.

[Michael]

It's. It's just. It's very. I'm not making excuses. There's a difference between an excuse and a reason. Right. Like an excuse makes it okay. I'm not making it okay, but I think it is. It's. It's very difficult for some. For some people to get past that.

[Host]

How dare you humanize these people? It makes me feel bad about making fun of them. Which. It's. I'm joking. It's. I get it. I mean, unless you've walked a mile in somebody's shoes, it's easy to sit back and Monday morning quarterback it. And I'll be the first to tell you, we have some people or had some people in the time that I was in where their biggest risk to self was whether or not they could fit the side panels of their vests together and actually made it to the Velcro.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Really just exhale like, hey, man, we're about to go some stairs. You're gonna need your chest to be able to go in and out, maybe hit the gym.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. Think it'd be a wake up call for sure.

[Host]

I wasn't gonna ask. What do you guys do for combatives type stuff?

[Michael]

Explain what you mean.

[Host]

How do you train guys to deal with having to put their hands on.

[Michael]

People as a, as an agency or.

[Host]

Yeah, well, both and I have.

[Michael]

Are you going to the Jiu Jitsu route?

[Host]

Well, here's the thing. I like Jiu Jitsu, but it's not magic by any stretch. It's a totally incomplete self defense art form. You had to be able to get through kicking and striking range and all of that stuff. Yeah, I just, every time I talk to officers, I'm just fascinated by what their department has landed on. On.

[Michael]

Yeah. The, our training academy puts on stuff every. I think it's every year now. It didn't used to be this way, but as of late it has been every year when we go back to the academy for our in service training, there's blocks of instruction on, on grappling and I don't know if it's, if I'm not a Jiu Jitsu guy. So I don't know if any of these techniques are considered Jiu Jitsu, but it's. They basically have gone to different schools like that that the confrontation management team is what they're called on the, at the academy staff. Those guys and girls like they'll go out to different schools, learn stuff and bring it back and look at those practices. Yeah. Or what they consider the best practices that are. That fit our policy. I guess so every officer gets that kind of training and then for our team it's, it's pretty similar. Like we've got guys, we've got cadre that are responsible for defensive tactics is what we call it.

[Host]

Yep.

[Michael]

And they, they go to different schools and stuff and then they'll teach stuff that they think is most practical to a dude wearing a full kit and a rifle and a helmet with night vision on. You know, like. Because certain, certain things won't work when you're wearing all that stuff. So. And then they'll try to create like scenarios that are very likely for us. Like if we. What happens if you come into a room and there's a dude who's non compliant but he's not a lethal threat and you got your rifle on but you still got to get to your point of domination and he's, he's in your way, you know, like techniques on what you would do there. Like.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

To get them out of the way. So I think as a, as a whole our department could use more but it's it that's not from a lack of effort, it's just the nature of the beast. You got a few thousand officers that need training and you only have a limited amount of time. And there's a, they need more than just like there's so much that they got to get for sure. Every, every time they come into the academy for in service or whether it's in the training academy itself, there's just not enough time. So the sad truth of it, with all of it, whether it's firearms, marksmanship, whether it's medical training, fitness or defensive tactics, they can only show you what to practice. And then you need to do the practice on your own. You got to do some training on your own. And we just know that, you know, some, some people just aren't going to do that or not. Maybe they don't have time, I don't know.

[Host]

Well, I always ask police officers because your job is one of the few where touching people is just almost mandatory.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

Most occupations you're not required to put your hands on somebody.

[Michael]

Yes. Frowned upon.

[Host]

Especially somebody who's like, I don't like you touching me and I don't actually want to do what you're saying.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

So yeah, it's, yeah, there's, you can introduce people to concepts, but like you said, it's whether it's shooting, I mean, God, some of the stats of these rural departments of, of 50 rounds a year to practice and no additional time. And like, man, they are stacking the deck against you. And I hope that people can put it in as much time as they can because you know that that's going to be what ends up saving your life in the moment.

[Michael]

Yeah. No, you're right. 100%.

[Host]

Yeah. What's your wife think about your job?

[Michael]

It, it has put a lot of stress on her over the years for sure. She, I met her before I became a cop and I told her that was my dream. I, I actually, I finished grad school, I went to undergrad and grad school in Massachusetts and then I only applied to one department and it was in Tennessee and I had not heard back from them yet.

[Host]

So there's no stress there at all.

[Michael]

No, I need to do something. So what my, my, my choice was or what I decided to do, I rented a van, I packed up my apartment and I just drove to Tennessee without a job. Not hearing from them yet. And I made the 17 hour drive, crashed, got up and then just went straight to the mall and started applying to jobs. And then that's actually how I met my wife. She, she worked at one of the stores. They hired me and I told her that I want to be a cop. She knew I was passionate. The reason I wanted to be a cop was because of the Columbine. And I was in high school when Columbine happened, so it had a pretty big impact on me.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I. In therapy, I realized. It's interesting at therapy, you realize how many things are connected. So when you pull on, like, one, like, it's like a spider web. If you pull on one end of the spider web, the whole web shakes and. And everything kind of comes loose. But she knew I was passionate. Like, that had a. That had a big impact on my life. Seeing kids that were my age being pulled out by police officers. I just remember it being on the news, you know, kids covered in blood. And I don't know if I knew it then when I was a kid, but that is the moment I decided I wanted to be a cop. So she's known from the beginning when she met me. She's been very supportive. And I think she would tell you that she loses. She's probably lost a few years of her life just dealing with the stress of being my wife, especially in 2020. That was a shit show.

[Host]

Do you guys have a social circle outside of the people you work with.

[Michael]

Like me and my wife, or even just yourself?

[Host]

One of the most dangerous trappings that I've seen is that the social circle and this happens. I've seen this specifically with tactical units. They only hang out with the people that they work with. So at work, you talk about work stuff, but then you leave work to hang out with the people that you worked with, and guess what? You talk about work stuff. So it's this inescapable vortex. One of the healthiest things I have seen from people in those communities is to intentionally, not to shun the people that they work with, but intentionally focus on creating a social circle away from that environment. Environment and people.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And they don't realize they're doing it. It's just the people, you know. Right.

[Michael]

People that I work with. Yeah, yeah. And we work, like I said, sometimes it's up to 90 hours a week, but even if it's not, even if it was 40 hours a week, and then all you're doing is talking about work, your boys. It's just. Yeah.

[Host]

You can't escape it. It's one of the healthiest ways, I think, to start detaching your identity from your occupation and.

[Michael]

And you need to do the people need to do.

[Host]

You have to do it and, you know, with that other social circle. Play games with yourself. How long can I go without Saying a damn thing about anything I do for a living. How long could it be knowing somebody, meeting somebody, introducing somebody, until they accidentally find out what I do for a living? Just make it not a part of your personality whatsoever. It's super healthy. Yeah, because the job, man, it requires so much, you guys. It'll. It'll. It will eat you. And that's the thing. And this is a tough one, too. And I had to go through this, you know, when I was leaving. You want to tell yourself, well, SEAL teams, they were the best they were ever going to be when I was a part of it. Now that I'm gone, they're not going to be as good. And that's a total lie. They are. They're fine.

[Michael]

We're all replaceable.

[Host]

Every single one of us is replaceable. And it's. Sometime you have to pass the baton on, and that is such a hard thing to realize, but we're all not as unique as we'd like to think that we are. And every one of us is replaceable. Yeah, but if you don't. I mean, if you don't focus on those things, the jobs will. They will eat you, man. They're a bear trap that won't let go. But the social circle one is a very interesting one. Again, I don't have the data to see support it, but I have the depth of belief and I have in it from listening to people who have talked to me about their experiences and their intentional way of doing so and the benefit that they got from that. They don't love their boys any less. They're just making sure that they have time for something that is not directly attached to that identity.

[Michael]

You know, you bring up a great point. And I don't do a good job at that. And I definitely isolate. I'm very introverted.

[Host]

So it could be people you meet at church. I mean, that could honestly with whatever a Bible study or whatever it is. Not that you should not go to the Bible study with the guys that you work with, but there's a lot of opportunities out there to just splinter a little bit. But those games are fascinating. How long can you go? Yeah, because what you'll find is it's so habitual and also. But you want people to know you want it to be your identity. It's a fun game to play.

[Michael]

Yeah. That's when you get in the realm of. And I'm not saying I'm not victim of it as well, but that's when you get in the realm of almost self idolization. To a certain extent, like, there's definitely a. A level of like, I'm getting something out of me doing this job. It's. Whether it's military or police. I can't think of the phrase I'm trying to think of. But self serving to a certain extent.

[Host]

Those occupations are inspirational and aspirational to a lot of people. And if you're the type of person that wants to take advantage of that, there is opportunity everywhere.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

The problem is those bad apples that do take opportunity with that and then step right on their dick, they mess it up for everybody else who wears the same badge.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

You should try to infiltrate firefighter groups. I'm just spitballing.

[Michael]

We have a pretty good relationship with some of the firemen. They, they come on a lot of our, like the medical portion of the fire department. They come on a lot of our operations as medical support. So. But yeah, I know you're making a joke.

[Host]

I'm just spitballing. Go. You're an undercover firefighter now. You have to go to their groups and then figure out how long it is before they realize. Problem is, most of them have probably seen you though, so, like, that's not going to work. But you might have to go one county over.

[Michael]

Well, you, you remind me like, this is another great example of spiritual warfare for me that you reminded me of, like, that being part of your identity. So if guys aren't careful, what happens when that identity gets taken away unexpectedly.

[Host]

I can tell you exactly what happens. Their life falls apart.

[Michael]

Yeah. And I've seen it happen. You know, luckily the guy was able to come back, but he went through hell, man. And he, he had an injury and it took him a long time to get through that injury. And it got to the crossroad point where he thought that he was gonna have to leave. And he never said anything about depression. He never said anything about any of that. But you could just see it, you know, like, I could see the war going on inside him, you know, like, I'm about to lose this, and this is everything. And he was a former, former Marine, you know, Force recon guy. So this is like he's been doing this stuff his whole life and to just have that moment. And I'm not saying he doesn't have social. Like, I don't know anything about his personal life. So he, he may have done everything right, but. But the point I'm illustrating is you could see how quickly that could be used to just destroy somebody.

[Host]

Yeah. I mean, not that I think that people should be Focused elsewhere from their job. But as people in any career, as you get to the tail end, especially a tactical career, because you just. I'm sorry, at 48, guess what? The 28 year old's gonna pack your lunch and eat it for you at some point in time. That's just the way it works. You could probably. You'll get by on that one with wisdom and experience. Right. You'll be able to out tactic that person to a degree. But then they're going to learn quickly. And you're like I hate you in this job. And yeah, you know, I hope you get hit while crossing traffic having a latte. But I don't know why I use that exact example. But those are the things I've thoughts I've had about younger people who are better than me, which I don't know what it says about me. Start looking at what the next is.

[Michael]

Yeah, there's.

[Host]

You got time. It just. And I'm not saying again, don't start. Well, I guess you could start three side the T shirt thing, right?

[Michael]

Yeah, dude.

[Host]

Who knows where that could go. But if you find it to be cathartic for you and you like doing it and there's some economics there, dude. Carve out to two hours a week, you know, for a couple years before. Because everybody knows at some point in time the guillotine is coming. Oh yeah, like you get to keep your badge. Actually, do you get to keep your badge when you retire? Do they give you like a retired badge?

[Michael]

You think I would know. They do give you a retired badge. I don't think think you keep the actual badge. I could be wrong, but metaphorically you.

[Host]

Get to keep your badge and gun.

[Michael]

You can, yeah, you can buy your gun. Yeah, I think you just get a retired badge because I think they're afraid that what they don't want is impersonation. You know, they don't want you.

[Host]

Yeah, you'll be good. You got HR218, you can carry it all 50 states. It's amazing.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's.

[Host]

I love that law by the way. States that have really restrictive CCWs. Go to hell with you people. People can look up HR218. It's a federal law that trumps state law. But you'll get to keep your metaphorical badge and gun. Yeah, I mean even think of this, two hours a week. So it'd be 104 hours a year. But over four or five years, that's a lot of work that you have put into something that could be next. It's Coming for everybody. When I got hurt, it was the first time that I had lifted my head and started thinking about, what am I going to do if I can't go back to doing this? And it sucked. That thought exercise sucked in the moment. But I was able to continuously think about, okay, what am I going to do when it's not this? And it opened up a wide. It was a hallway with a bunch of doors that I was able to look in, but I had to lift my head up. I think I was always standing at the threshold of that hallway. I just didn't even realize it, and I'm glad I did. Years before I had the. Before being medically retired, as opposed to months.

[Michael]

Right.

[Host]

Or days.

[Michael]

Yeah. When the. When the clock's ticking.

[Host]

Or after you go and pick up your retired badge and, you know, write the check for your gun and then you go, okay, what's next?

[Michael]

You know, what do I do now? Yeah, that's rough.

[Host]

That's. I mean, that's a lot of mental stress that you are. You're putting it on yourself. And there are ways to reduce that and aggregate it over time, in my opinion, at least.

[Michael]

Yeah. So now you're. You're spot on, man. You're hitting the nail on the head for sure.

[Host]

What else? Do we not cover anything because we've got it for two and a half hours?

[Michael]

No, I think. I think we talked about everything. I want to talk about. Is there anything. Anything else?

[Host]

I like the shit stories. Those are good.

[Michael]

Yeah. I've got tons of stories. I know.

[Host]

I don't want to get you in trouble with your department. They're like, yeah, some of those are Googleable and they'll be pissed that people could reverse engineer.

[Michael]

Yeah. Everything we've talked about, there's body camera footage of all of it. Oh, that's something. So I don't remember if you talked about this with. With on another podcast or not, but, like time slowing down during a critical incident. Yeah. You know, so that. That poop incident, my body camera footage is on. On YouTube for that one. Yeah. I mean, it's just a short clip. I don't think you can tell it's poop. But now, you know, when you watch it, if you look it up, you'll know that's poop. When I release my dog in that video and I start running towards the threat. I like when I got interviewed afterwards, and my memory of that time elapse was at least 30 seconds of dog release to me making contact with the suspect, was it like 54 seconds. But what's. What's crazy is it didn't feel distorted to me. Like, my perception of time, it was elapsing at the normal rate. It didn't, like, you know, some people say things like slow down or they speed up. It felt totally normal to me. So I told people, yeah, it took like, 20 seconds to run through the woods, 30 seconds to get there. And. And I watched it, and I was like, holy, it's only four seconds. And that, like, that made me start thinking. I thought about that when I was at the rehab. It made me start thinking, like, what kind of stress does that put on our brain? Because I'm probably ramping that up all the time. Like, that's not the only time I've done that. That's just the first time I've had video evidence of it to show me. But we probably, like, our brains are processing like that that fast all the time. So I wonder, like, is that putting stress on our brain combined with, you know, combined with everything else?

[Host]

Without a doubt.

[Michael]

And then it also, to me, illustrated that, like, memory is not reliable at all, you know, because I would have. I would have sworn I would have gotten on. Like, not that that detail matters, but if I would have stood in a courtroom and swore under oath, it took 30 seconds to run there. And it's like, nope, took four. You're lying. Yeah.

[Host]

And you weren't even meaning to.

[Michael]

No. So. And maybe that's a weird example, but it just shows that you're like, memories themselves are not always reliable, you know, and that's. I think there's goods and bads about having body cameras, but that's kind of. That's one of the pluses.

[Host]

Yeah. You know, I love that people thought that body cameras were going to just incriminate all these horrible officers.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And most of the time, what it shows is people being complete ass hats.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's one of the best protective tools for law enforcement that there is.

[Michael]

It has. And it's. And that stuff can be used in prosecution as well. And that's. That's. It's funny, when body cameras first, at least in our area, once they first hit and the department started doing that, like, hey, we have evidence of your client committing that crime that immediately the defense attorneys wanted, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We didn't want body cameras that we just. We can't use that, you know, so they didn't think it through. Yeah. When they pushed for it, but. Yeah.

[Host]

That knife cuts both ways.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

What's the Website for your business so we can point people towards it.

[Michael]

Righteous tactics. Righteous tactics dot com. And then I've started a YouTube channel. I don't know, like it's nothing like this. Like this is very professional. It's just me sitting in my fucking office just talking about mental health.

[Host]

But this is started exactly the same way. I had a real. I had no video. I had an audio setup that was bought by 511 Tactical, one of the brands I was working with at the time. And eventually people said you should do video. So I'd had a single camera that I probably had out of focus and off kilter. It like a three degree list that was just enough to drive people absolutely insane. And then it grew to some like Sony Handycams. And then I was doing all the editing of the episodes and doing the camera angle switches and then.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm doing it all right now.

[Host]

Yeah. Met Michael throughout Jiu Jitsu. It was actually Leah that kind of made the connection, right?

[Michael]

Yes.

[Host]

Yeah. So my wife made the connection. How many years have we been working together? Three or four.

[Michael]

No, like five, I think.

[Host]

What, so I met you when you're 18?

[Michael]

This is like when my wife asked me how many years we've been together. Like she tests me like, fuck, I don't know that.

[Host]

Ooh, you better know that one. Write that one. I do.

[Michael]

I do know totally now.

[Host]

But it is incremental. And so we. The previous studio to this one, it probably looks a lot the same to the viewers, but. But was in the same building but like four office spaces down. And it was just a single small room that was actually probably more four feet in this way and probably ended right at this table. And then I was doing the stuff with Ironclad and they would have me put something and it's like I'm cubed out of space.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

So I found. And again. So this is like the seventh evolution in iteration. You know, buddy I do jiu jitsu with built this table for me. This room just happened to become available. Michael and I came in on a weekend and had those carpet sliders.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And just slid everything down the hall. Yeah, it's pretty dope.

[Michael]

That's one thing I learned after doing that first episode of just how important it is to have a room that absorbs sound, man.

[Host]

And you don't notice it if you're just in the room. But it's crazy how the devices pick it up. Microphone quality is. Is huge because you can do a podcast with. With a cell phone, but it sounds Like a podcast with a cell phone.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Host]

And there are so many out there that if you don't put some effort into that, sure, people aren't going to listen. There's just too much high quality stuff, so.

[Michael]

Well, it's been therapeutic for me. So I've only done two episodes so far, but keep at it. But yeah, I'm gonna like, to me, it's not about like vanity or like if a few people listen to it and get something out of it, great. But for me, it's like putting my thoughts out there and it just feels, it's a great, great therapy for me. Cool. Yeah.

[Host]

Well, right on, man. Thanks for making the trip.

[Michael]

Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

[Host]

Cool. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host.

[Michael]

You seek it out and download it.

[Host]

You listen to it while driving, working.

[Michael]

Out, cooking, even going to the bathroom.

[Host]

Podcasts are a pretty close companion.

[Michael]

And this is a podcast ad.

[Host]

Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself.

[Michael]

With podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering.

[Host]

Host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their.

[Michael]

Favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to.

[Host]

Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.