Transcript

Jay Wadsworth (0:00)

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Michael (0:29)

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north to south.

Jay Wadsworth (0:34)

West of the smoke. West of the smoke.

Michael (0:37)

Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

Jay Wadsworth (0:47)

So I was so pissed because in Omaha and my buddy Scott does like media for fun, but he's my assistant director. I brought everybody in and we're going to start doing like moving out of the clinch and we're gonna be using sir guns. So I was like, listen, we treat all weapons as if they are Sig 320s. And that's what I said. And everyone's dying laughing. And this is like three or four weeks ago. And then someone just posted a, like a video of that like yesterday. And I'm like, we're late to the party, dude.

Michael (1:15)

How?

Jay Wadsworth (1:16)

I'm like, why did we post that?

Michael (1:17)

How is Sig?

Jay Wadsworth (1:19)

And not only that, that video, that link you shared the other day, dude.

Michael (1:23)

Wow, five times in a row. Yeah. A millimeter of play. So you're up against the wall and I can just think of so many situations, whether it's an overly. Just a holster with one screw too tight that's grabbing on the trigger guard like a millimeter of fucking.

Jay Wadsworth (1:38)

Perfect, right? So you're always gonna have to have that. Oh, my God, it's so crazy.

Michael (1:42)

And people are like, it's. Well, you know this. Why does he have a screw in there? I'm like, you idiots. The screw is holding the millimeter. And oh, by the way. And unless. Unless you finish that squeeze, there is no way that fucking should go off. And it was crazy because the first one, right, he rattles the back of the slide after working his way through the front. But like the fifth time he just sandwiched it and it went off. Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. You guys know how awesome this brand is. You know what they make. You should, I hope in the name Montana Knife Company. Right? It's kind of in there. I'm gonna head over to their website because like I said in a previous ad read, we're in hunting season now, so let's start talking about hunting Part prep the first thing on their rotating banner. My homie here, Dudley. A new Triumph Pro designed by John Smith and John Dudley. Dudley is the one who got me into archery. John is the one who got me a little bit interested in knives. So it looks like that comes out. Yep, that'll be available right before this episode drops. Good luck getting one of those. The Jackstone Canadian belt knife. Interesting description. I didn't know they were large to have stabby things. Culinary sets. And yes, here we are hunting blaze orange. If you're a hunter, you know that orange is often a requirement, depending if you're in archery or rifle season. Of course, there's a story behind every orange vest that is required. Let's not confuse these orange knives, though, with counting against the square inches you need in a hunting environment. But these are just awesome. This is just like in the hunting mindset. This is a flare piece, if you will. But I'm going to also call it an essential. Have an amazing selection of hats, T shirts, soft goods, and if you scroll down, I mean the ridiculous nature of the different versions of these knives, we can just click on view all. And I know they're getting ready to launch some new blade designs themselves. I can't talk too much about that other than to say they're on the Horizon. A brand 120 miles south of where I'm at, doing the absolute best they can to bring production back to the United States. Bringing jobs to Missoula, paying a living wage, lifetime warranty. Sharpen your knives for you. If you've got any issues, send it back in. They're going to make it right. Montanaknifecompany.com for the hunters out there, specifically for this ad read today. Think about that blaze orange stuff. Like I said, it doesn't help you with the orange required, but it's a nice flare piece. It's an essential flare piece. Back to the show. And then. And then there's the post from Sig. What was it a year ago? First sentence under he's like it. It says this ends today. Yeah. Under no circumstances will a Sig fire without the triggered fully depressed.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cleared Hot — Episode 407

Guest: Jay Wadsworth
Title: Effective Policing Through Enhanced Training
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Andy Stumpf

Overview

This episode centers on the critical need for enhanced, ongoing training in law enforcement, specifically focusing on the realities of hands-on control, grappling, and scenario-based tactics for officers. Andy Stumpf and guest Jay Wadsworth (recently retired LEO, combatives instructor) dig deeply into why current police training often fails to prepare officers for real-world encounters, the consequences of insufficient training, and how a progressive approach—emphasizing fitness, grappling fundamentals, and scenario work—can prevent unnecessary harm to both officers and the public. Using real-world examples, body cam breakdowns, legal updates, and personal experiences, Andy and Jay highlight the vital path forward for more effective and safer policing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Issues with Police Sidearms and Equipment

SIG Sauer 320 Problems
- Opening discussion covers recent viral videos of the SIG 320 firing without the trigger being pulled and the manufacturer’s denials. Specific incidents where officers were injured are referenced.
  - “Under no circumstances will a SIG fire without the trigger fully depressed...” (04:16 Jay Wadsworth)
  - “That didn’t age well.” (04:16 Jay Wadsworth)
- The group discusses the challenges for agencies who now must decide what to do with existing inventories—re-engineering, buybacks, or upper assembly swaps.
- The importance of issue selection based on reliability and user fit is underscored.
The Challenge of Carrying with an Empty Chamber
- Contrast between Israeli method (drawing and racking) and the need for readiness in US policing.
  - “When you need it to go bang, it needs to go bang.” (10:20 Jay Wadsworth)

Real-Life Case Studies and Footage Breakdowns

NYC AR Incident and Concealed Carry Discussion
- The episode explores a recent incident where a man walked openly with what looked like an AR platform in NYC, the public’s lack of reaction, and confusion over carry laws.
  - [12:00-14:00]
Walmart Knife Incident
- Analysis of a civilian intervening to stop a stabbing with a suboptimal grip/technique, but still successfully de-escalating.
  - “He got the job done… for those of you who value the skin on your non-dominant hand, maybe rotate that a little more forward…” (14:28 Michael)
- Discussion on public willingness—to intervene or not—and how stop-rates differ based on environment and skill.
  - “We need more people that are trained or ready to step up in these situations. That's what we need in society.” (17:41 Jay Wadsworth)
Active Resistor & Hands-On Control
- Jay explains that statistically, the overwhelming majority of police force events begin as hands-on, not as shootings or Taser deployments.
  - “Raise your hand if you’ve shot more than five people—nobody's raised their hand yet… raise your hand if you've gone hands-on…everyone raises their hand.” (52:09 Jay Wadsworth)

The Crisis of Police Training Standards

Inconsistency & Lack of National Standard
- No consistent or mandatory national training protocol for police fitness or combatives past the academy.
  - “I don't know one place that has a mandatory PT test on a yearly basis for a police department. I don't know one.” (28:13 Jay Wadsworth)
- Most cops stop formal fitness training post-academy, with troubling fitness incentives (optional, not baseline).
Low Frequency of Reality-Based and Grappling Training
- Discussion of why hands-on, control, and grappling fundamentals must be prioritized—especially for dealing with active resistance, where the majority of injuries and escalation occur.
Challenges in Funding and Time
- Departments cite cost and time as barriers, though lawsuits and injuries ultimately cost more.
  - “It's going to cost more… it's going to have a cost regardless. Why wouldn't you invest in them early?” (26:29 Jay Wadsworth)
- Pressure from unions, organizational inertia, and lack of legislative mandates reinforce the status quo.
Cultural Problems and Responsibility
- A culture of complacency, sometimes encouraged by injury payouts, further impedes standards.

Reality-Based Scenario and Pressure Testing

Why Scenario Drills Matter
- “Box drills” and “hooded-box drills” force snap decision-making and exposure to dynamic, unpredictable violence.
  - “You have to pressure them right away. If you don't pressure them right away, they're not going to process, they're going to get nervous. And we know from zero to seven feet is where shootings occur.” (68:28 Jay Wadsworth)
- Realities on the street rarely fit the “silos” of training—shooting, ground control, and CQB have to be integrated.
Colorado Springs & Other Progressive Departments
- Jay details his work with departments like Grand Rapids (which drastically improved outcomes after implementing continuous combatives and scenario training) and Colorado Springs (undergoing 20 hours/yr scenario-based training via EFC).
  - [59:10-71:12]
- Early data shows marked reductions in injury, escalation, and more efficient custody.
  - “It has changed their department's use of force, totally… They had four incidents that way in 2023, none ended up in shootings.” (59:10 Jay Wadsworth)

Use of Force Doctrine and Legal Landscape

Graham v. Connor (Use of Force National Standard)
- Outlines the “severity of the crime / resistance / threat to others” test.
  - [72:26 Jay Wadsworth]
Recent Case Law Developments
- Felix v. Barnes (2024-2025): Moves judicial review toward “totality of circumstances” over just the moment of threat; critical for use-of-force evaluations.
  - [74:14-77:57 and 96:32-100:11]
Officer Awareness Lags
- Many officers/departments are not kept up-to-date with case law changes unless they self-educate. This is a systemic flaw that can lead to life-altering errors.
  - “Unless they're doing it on their own, it's probably not happening…” (74:14 Jay Wadsworth)
Political/Legislative Overreach
- Ban on vascular neck restraints ("chokes") in deadly force situations is highlighted as an example of poorly informed, reactive legislation that paradoxically allows lethal options—but not less-lethal, grappling-based control.
  - "So what you’re saying is I have you, back mounted...you start to reach for a weapon and I can’t choke you… but I could shoot you in the head and it’s okay. How...?" (85:14 Jay Wadsworth)

Training Tactics: Grappling, Fitness, and Tool Use

Mandatory Grappling Skills
- Jay argues for a foundational grappling standard—encompassing both wrestling and jiujitsu—for every officer, since the majority of police use-of-force encounters are within grappling range.
  - “If you work in an occupation where physically touching people is literally part of the job... why would you not be as good as possible at that range?” (34:18 Michael)
- A blue belt in jiujitsu should be a baseline for field officers—realistically ensuring control in most situations without escalation to weapons.
  - “A blue belt can handle this problem 100% of the time, easily, without issue.” (61:11 Jay Wadsworth)
Pressure Testing: The Need for Resistance
- Only way to measure readiness is through resistance and scenario stress. Current culture avoids hard, uncomfortable training due to injury (and injury incentives), but this creates greater long-term risk.
Taser and Less-lethal Use Nuances
- In-depth discussion on why TASERs (even new models like Taser 10) are unreliable without proper probe placement and follow-up, and why grappling skills are a far more consistent tool for control.
  - [37:44-43:09]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Training Gaps:
- “Cops are insanely undertrained. The equation they have built right now to train cops is just a failure.” (19:31 Jay Wadsworth)
On Fitness Standards:
- "It’s pathetic... One, I don’t know of one place that has a mandatory PT test on a yearly basis..." (28:13 Jay Wadsworth)
On Pressure Testing:
- “Most people don't do that because it takes too much time. There's not—they're probably going to get hurt. They're not adding resistance. And when you don't have resistance, you're not going to see improvement.” (68:27 Jay Wadsworth)
On New Legal Doctrine:
- “Felix v. Barnes… the Supreme Court ruled 9-0… totality of circumstances is the new way of judging uses of force, not moment of threat.” (96:32 Jay Wadsworth)
On Use of Police Chokes:
- "We know that choking...the overwhelming majority of time, saves lives. But I can’t do that. So I have to shoot him because I’m in the use of force to shoot him." (87:07 Jay Wadsworth)

Important Timestamps

00:47–06:41: SIG 320 safety issues and implications for agencies
10:12–18:45: NYC open-carry incident, public reaction, concealed carry laws, culture
19:31–28:13: Police training standards, fitness, responsibility
38:00–43:09: Taser mechanics, Taser 10, less-lethal reliability and user training
59:10–71:12: Grand Rapids & Colorado Springs PD: implementing continuous officer combatives/scenario training, dramatic reduction in force escalation
72:26–74:14: Graham v. Connor and use-of-force standards
85:14–89:06: Bans on vascular chokes/neck restraints in policing (political reaction vs. real outcomes)
96:32–101:11: Vehicle extraction—body cam breakdowns, crossfire, officer-induced jeopardy, and the legal ramifications (Felix v. Barnes, San Bernardino incident)

Conclusion & Takeaways

Ongoing, Resistance-Based Training Is Essential
- Both case studies and legal trends underscore the necessity. Officers are overwhelmingly hands-on, but insufficiently prepared.
Department and Officer Responsibility
- Both institutional support and individual drive are required to reach necessary standards.
Realistic, Scenario-Based Drills With Resistance MUST Replace Siloed, Static Approaches
- Only under stress and dynamic uncertainty can officers gain the decision-making and physical proficiency required for safety and public trust.
Administrative and Political Leadership Must Listen to Field Realities, Not Just Legal or Political Optics
- Misguided policies (e.g. outright bans on chokes) can create more harm than good; data-driven approaches are imperative.
Legal Doctrine is Evolving—Departments Must Keep Up
- The move toward "totality of circumstances" in federal use-of-force review requires that policies and training keep pace.

Resources & Where to Find Jay

EFC: Effective Combatives
- Website: efcombatives.com
- Instagram & YouTube: @efcombatives
- Police Post: Instagram/YouTube (for real incident breakdowns, app info)
- Personal IG: @wadsbjj

Final Thought:
If your department or community values officer safety, public safety, and minimizing unnecessary force, continuous, pressure-based training in both grappling and scenario work cannot be optional. The research, science, and tragic case studies are overwhelming—now the willpower and leadership must follow.

wavePod

Episode 407 - Jay Wadsworth - Effective Policing Through Enhanced Training