Episode 407 - Jay Wadsworth - Effective Policing Through Enhanced Training

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Cleared Hot — Episode 407

Guest: Jay Wadsworth
Title: Effective Policing Through Enhanced Training
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Andy Stumpf

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Overview

This episode centers on the critical need for enhanced, ongoing training in law enforcement, specifically focusing on the realities of hands-on control, grappling, and scenario-based tactics for officers. Andy Stumpf and guest Jay Wadsworth (recently retired LEO, combatives instructor) dig deeply into why current police training often fails to prepare officers for real-world encounters, the consequences of insufficient training, and how a progressive approach—emphasizing fitness, grappling fundamentals, and scenario work—can prevent unnecessary harm to both officers and the public. Using real-world examples, body cam breakdowns, legal updates, and personal experiences, Andy and Jay highlight the vital path forward for more effective and safer policing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Issues with Police Sidearms and Equipment

• SIG Sauer 320 Problems
  • Opening discussion covers recent viral videos of the SIG 320 firing without the trigger being pulled and the manufacturer’s denials. Specific incidents where officers were injured are referenced.
    • “Under no circumstances will a SIG fire without the trigger fully depressed...” (04:16 Jay Wadsworth)
    • “That didn’t age well.” (04:16 Jay Wadsworth)
  • The group discusses the challenges for agencies who now must decide what to do with existing inventories—re-engineering, buybacks, or upper assembly swaps.
  • The importance of issue selection based on reliability and user fit is underscored.
• The Challenge of Carrying with an Empty Chamber
  • Contrast between Israeli method (drawing and racking) and the need for readiness in US policing.
    • “When you need it to go bang, it needs to go bang.” (10:20 Jay Wadsworth)

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Real-Life Case Studies and Footage Breakdowns

• NYC AR Incident and Concealed Carry Discussion
  • The episode explores a recent incident where a man walked openly with what looked like an AR platform in NYC, the public’s lack of reaction, and confusion over carry laws.
    • [12:00-14:00]
• Walmart Knife Incident
  • Analysis of a civilian intervening to stop a stabbing with a suboptimal grip/technique, but still successfully de-escalating.
    • “He got the job done… for those of you who value the skin on your non-dominant hand, maybe rotate that a little more forward…” (14:28 Michael)
  • Discussion on public willingness—to intervene or not—and how stop-rates differ based on environment and skill.
    • “We need more people that are trained or ready to step up in these situations. That's what we need in society.” (17:41 Jay Wadsworth)
• Active Resistor & Hands-On Control
  • Jay explains that statistically, the overwhelming majority of police force events begin as hands-on, not as shootings or Taser deployments.
    • “Raise your hand if you’ve shot more than five people—nobody's raised their hand yet… raise your hand if you've gone hands-on…everyone raises their hand.” (52:09 Jay Wadsworth)

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The Crisis of Police Training Standards

• Inconsistency & Lack of National Standard
  • No consistent or mandatory national training protocol for police fitness or combatives past the academy.
    • “I don't know one place that has a mandatory PT test on a yearly basis for a police department. I don't know one.” (28:13 Jay Wadsworth)
  • Most cops stop formal fitness training post-academy, with troubling fitness incentives (optional, not baseline).
• Low Frequency of Reality-Based and Grappling Training
  • Discussion of why hands-on, control, and grappling fundamentals must be prioritized—especially for dealing with active resistance, where the majority of injuries and escalation occur.
• Challenges in Funding and Time
  • Departments cite cost and time as barriers, though lawsuits and injuries ultimately cost more.
    • “It's going to cost more… it's going to have a cost regardless. Why wouldn't you invest in them early?” (26:29 Jay Wadsworth)
  • Pressure from unions, organizational inertia, and lack of legislative mandates reinforce the status quo.
• Cultural Problems and Responsibility
  • A culture of complacency, sometimes encouraged by injury payouts, further impedes standards.

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Reality-Based Scenario and Pressure Testing

• Why Scenario Drills Matter
  • “Box drills” and “hooded-box drills” force snap decision-making and exposure to dynamic, unpredictable violence.
    • “You have to pressure them right away. If you don't pressure them right away, they're not going to process, they're going to get nervous. And we know from zero to seven feet is where shootings occur.” (68:28 Jay Wadsworth)
  • Realities on the street rarely fit the “silos” of training—shooting, ground control, and CQB have to be integrated.
• Colorado Springs & Other Progressive Departments
  • Jay details his work with departments like Grand Rapids (which drastically improved outcomes after implementing continuous combatives and scenario training) and Colorado Springs (undergoing 20 hours/yr scenario-based training via EFC).
    • [59:10-71:12]
  • Early data shows marked reductions in injury, escalation, and more efficient custody.
    • “It has changed their department's use of force, totally… They had four incidents that way in 2023, none ended up in shootings.” (59:10 Jay Wadsworth)

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Use of Force Doctrine and Legal Landscape

• Graham v. Connor (Use of Force National Standard)
  • Outlines the “severity of the crime / resistance / threat to others” test.
    • [72:26 Jay Wadsworth]
• Recent Case Law Developments
  • Felix v. Barnes (2024-2025): Moves judicial review toward “totality of circumstances” over just the moment of threat; critical for use-of-force evaluations.
    • [74:14-77:57 and 96:32-100:11]
• Officer Awareness Lags
  • Many officers/departments are not kept up-to-date with case law changes unless they self-educate. This is a systemic flaw that can lead to life-altering errors.
    • “Unless they're doing it on their own, it's probably not happening…” (74:14 Jay Wadsworth)
• Political/Legislative Overreach
  • Ban on vascular neck restraints ("chokes") in deadly force situations is highlighted as an example of poorly informed, reactive legislation that paradoxically allows lethal options—but not less-lethal, grappling-based control.
    • "So what you’re saying is I have you, back mounted...you start to reach for a weapon and I can’t choke you… but I could shoot you in the head and it’s okay. How...?" (85:14 Jay Wadsworth)

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Training Tactics: Grappling, Fitness, and Tool Use

• Mandatory Grappling Skills
  • Jay argues for a foundational grappling standard—encompassing both wrestling and jiujitsu—for every officer, since the majority of police use-of-force encounters are within grappling range.
    • “If you work in an occupation where physically touching people is literally part of the job... why would you not be as good as possible at that range?” (34:18 Michael)
  • A blue belt in jiujitsu should be a baseline for field officers—realistically ensuring control in most situations without escalation to weapons.
    • “A blue belt can handle this problem 100% of the time, easily, without issue.” (61:11 Jay Wadsworth)
• Pressure Testing: The Need for Resistance
  • Only way to measure readiness is through resistance and scenario stress. Current culture avoids hard, uncomfortable training due to injury (and injury incentives), but this creates greater long-term risk.
• Taser and Less-lethal Use Nuances
  • In-depth discussion on why TASERs (even new models like Taser 10) are unreliable without proper probe placement and follow-up, and why grappling skills are a far more consistent tool for control.
    • [37:44-43:09]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Training Gaps:
  • “Cops are insanely undertrained. The equation they have built right now to train cops is just a failure.” (19:31 Jay Wadsworth)
• On Fitness Standards:
  • "It’s pathetic... One, I don’t know of one place that has a mandatory PT test on a yearly basis..." (28:13 Jay Wadsworth)
• On Pressure Testing:
  • “Most people don't do that because it takes too much time. There's not—they're probably going to get hurt. They're not adding resistance. And when you don't have resistance, you're not going to see improvement.” (68:27 Jay Wadsworth)
• On New Legal Doctrine:
  • “Felix v. Barnes… the Supreme Court ruled 9-0… totality of circumstances is the new way of judging uses of force, not moment of threat.” (96:32 Jay Wadsworth)
• On Use of Police Chokes:
  • "We know that choking...the overwhelming majority of time, saves lives. But I can’t do that. So I have to shoot him because I’m in the use of force to shoot him." (87:07 Jay Wadsworth)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:47–06:41: SIG 320 safety issues and implications for agencies
• 10:12–18:45: NYC open-carry incident, public reaction, concealed carry laws, culture
• 19:31–28:13: Police training standards, fitness, responsibility
• 38:00–43:09: Taser mechanics, Taser 10, less-lethal reliability and user training
• 59:10–71:12: Grand Rapids & Colorado Springs PD: implementing continuous officer combatives/scenario training, dramatic reduction in force escalation
• 72:26–74:14: Graham v. Connor and use-of-force standards
• 85:14–89:06: Bans on vascular chokes/neck restraints in policing (political reaction vs. real outcomes)
• 96:32–101:11: Vehicle extraction—body cam breakdowns, crossfire, officer-induced jeopardy, and the legal ramifications (Felix v. Barnes, San Bernardino incident)

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Ongoing, Resistance-Based Training Is Essential
  • Both case studies and legal trends underscore the necessity. Officers are overwhelmingly hands-on, but insufficiently prepared.
• Department and Officer Responsibility
  • Both institutional support and individual drive are required to reach necessary standards.
• Realistic, Scenario-Based Drills With Resistance MUST Replace Siloed, Static Approaches
  • Only under stress and dynamic uncertainty can officers gain the decision-making and physical proficiency required for safety and public trust.
• Administrative and Political Leadership Must Listen to Field Realities, Not Just Legal or Political Optics
  • Misguided policies (e.g. outright bans on chokes) can create more harm than good; data-driven approaches are imperative.
• Legal Doctrine is Evolving—Departments Must Keep Up
  • The move toward "totality of circumstances" in federal use-of-force review requires that policies and training keep pace.

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Resources & Where to Find Jay

• EFC: Effective Combatives
  • Website: efcombatives.com
  • Instagram & YouTube: @efcombatives
  • Police Post: Instagram/YouTube (for real incident breakdowns, app info)
  • Personal IG: @wadsbjj

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Final Thought:
If your department or community values officer safety, public safety, and minimizing unnecessary force, continuous, pressure-based training in both grappling and scenario work cannot be optional. The research, science, and tragic case studies are overwhelming—now the willpower and leadership must follow.

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Transcript

[Jay Wadsworth]

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[Michael]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north to south.

[Jay Wadsworth]

West of the smoke. West of the smoke.

[Michael]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So I was so pissed because in Omaha and my buddy Scott does like media for fun, but he's my assistant director. I brought everybody in and we're going to start doing like moving out of the clinch and we're gonna be using sir guns. So I was like, listen, we treat all weapons as if they are Sig 320s. And that's what I said. And everyone's dying laughing. And this is like three or four weeks ago. And then someone just posted a, like a video of that like yesterday. And I'm like, we're late to the party, dude.

[Michael]

How?

[Jay Wadsworth]

I'm like, why did we post that?

[Michael]

How is Sig?

[Jay Wadsworth]

And not only that, that video, that link you shared the other day, dude.

[Michael]

Wow, five times in a row. Yeah. A millimeter of play. So you're up against the wall and I can just think of so many situations, whether it's an overly. Just a holster with one screw too tight that's grabbing on the trigger guard like a millimeter of fucking.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Perfect, right? So you're always gonna have to have that. Oh, my God, it's so crazy.

[Michael]

And people are like, it's. Well, you know this. Why does he have a screw in there? I'm like, you idiots. The screw is holding the millimeter. And oh, by the way. And unless. Unless you finish that squeeze, there is no way that fucking should go off. And it was crazy because the first one, right, he rattles the back of the slide after working his way through the front. But like the fifth time he just sandwiched it and it went off. Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. You guys know how awesome this brand is. You know what they make. You should, I hope in the name Montana Knife Company. Right? It's kind of in there. I'm gonna head over to their website because like I said in a previous ad read, we're in hunting season now, so let's start talking about hunting Part prep the first thing on their rotating banner. My homie here, Dudley. A new Triumph Pro designed by John Smith and John Dudley. Dudley is the one who got me into archery. John is the one who got me a little bit interested in knives. So it looks like that comes out. Yep, that'll be available right before this episode drops. Good luck getting one of those. The Jackstone Canadian belt knife. Interesting description. I didn't know they were large to have stabby things. Culinary sets. And yes, here we are hunting blaze orange. If you're a hunter, you know that orange is often a requirement, depending if you're in archery or rifle season. Of course, there's a story behind every orange vest that is required. Let's not confuse these orange knives, though, with counting against the square inches you need in a hunting environment. But these are just awesome. This is just like in the hunting mindset. This is a flare piece, if you will. But I'm going to also call it an essential. Have an amazing selection of hats, T shirts, soft goods, and if you scroll down, I mean the ridiculous nature of the different versions of these knives, we can just click on view all. And I know they're getting ready to launch some new blade designs themselves. I can't talk too much about that other than to say they're on the Horizon. A brand 120 miles south of where I'm at, doing the absolute best they can to bring production back to the United States. Bringing jobs to Missoula, paying a living wage, lifetime warranty. Sharpen your knives for you. If you've got any issues, send it back in. They're going to make it right. Montanaknifecompany.com for the hunters out there, specifically for this ad read today. Think about that blaze orange stuff. Like I said, it doesn't help you with the orange required, but it's a nice flare piece. It's an essential flare piece. Back to the show. And then. And then there's the post from Sig. What was it a year ago? First sentence under he's like it. It says this ends today. Yeah. Under no circumstances will a Sig fire without the triggered fully depressed.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That didn't age well.

[Michael]

They're so.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But they have other models that aren't terrible guns.

[Michael]

I carry a 365. I love it. The 365 is spectacular.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Re. Why don't they make the 365 in a duty sized gun.

[Michael]

I mean, that's it, dude. I mean, at this point.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I mean, at this point, people don't want huge guns anyways. Like I'm a. Yeah.

[Michael]

I mean, dude.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And it fits more hands than the.

[Michael]

This is a 21 plus one mag.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, like that's for me. I would carry this because I carry a 19 because as you can see, I have skinny hands.

[Michael]

But dude, doesn't that thing fit good in your hand?

[Jay Wadsworth]

It does. It actually does.

[Michael]

21 plus one.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Like that is insane.

[Michael]

So that. And that would probably be a little bit small for an agency to say that it's a duty pistol. Right. But yeah, they could.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They could probably make the slide a little bit longer, right? Like.

[Michael]

Yeah, I mean they could put it to whatever it wants. Like. But this thing is bomb proof. Yeah, the 320.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Dude. I know.

[Michael]

I don't understand.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And they had the what the Air Force and the army.

[Michael]

It's going to be everybody at this point. That video with this. The guy with the.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They had the contracts for the military.

[Michael]

They have the contract for the entire military.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, that's. That's a. That's a lot like, that's a lot of money for them to drop because it's not like they can just refurbish these guns. No, they just got to be like, we just need to step and be like, hey, we're re engineering these.

[Michael]

And what do you do with the ones that have already sold? Do you buy them back?

[Jay Wadsworth]

I don't know if you buy them back or do you. Can you like, could you buy them back and like somehow recycle the material depending on where.

[Michael]

Well, the other option could be depending on where the mechanical issue is, which sounds. It's in the upper portion of the slide. I guess you could, you could have people to make sure that the old ones aren't out there. You could have them send their old upper in.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And send them a new one.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But that doesn't have.

[Michael]

Yeah, but at this, at this point.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I mean, they got to do something.

[Michael]

How many LEOs do you know that are right now reconsidering their purchase of the 320?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, we could like sell them like knockoff price to like China.

[Michael]

You know, they're not gonna buy our countries. This. China's not gonna buy them.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Sell them to our enemies.

[Michael]

God. Throw them out of an airplane in Afghanistan.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. Drop them down there.

[Michael]

God. So you know GBRS guys, I mean, they're. They get a large check from them every Month, though.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Sure they do.

[Michael]

Demonstrably, that weapon has a. A platform, has a problem. I saw a video of it. Looked like six or seven officers in the lobby and they were cuffing somebody and a dude's in his holster. His hands were clearly nowhere near it. How is that not enough for it to be like, we're done here?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Just the backpack with the school resource officer. Female. The more recent one. No, she throws her backpack around and it just bumps the side of the holster and it shoots her in the leg.

[Michael]

Now though, that we've seen the video of how the guy's making it fire. Yeah, it's that manipulation. And also, again, like, this is the difference, right? Like that other Sig, like this thing. I guess there's a little bit, but dude, that 320 was rocking back.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Dude. He actually used his measure meter and that thing was like, there was significant space there.

[Michael]

Why. Why are the tolerance so shitty?

[Jay Wadsworth]

I don't.

[Michael]

I don't understand. I. I just never issued that gun. I actually own a couple. I looked in the safe. I bought one for my wife. It's gonna stay in the safe. Let me tell you what I'm doing this weekend. It involves a screw and no rounds in the thing, but I think that thing is staying in the safe for the foreseeable future.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I. I think I have a course coming up in Sig in March. So, like, I hope they don't completely fold, cuz I like their mat room and it's. It's cool. And I'm. I'm not. Not a fan of certain Sigs. Like, I'm a Glock. That's what I'm comfortable with. Glocks are great, but like, I am not opposed to shooting a Sig. Like my buddy shoots. Is it 19? No, he shoots the. What's the larger Sig? Model?

[Michael]

226.

[Jay Wadsworth]

226, I think.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's what they used to issue us.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. And that's what he. He likes. But again, he also has a sado.

[Michael]

And I tell people, go with whatever feels comfortable. Because people ask me, well, what caliber should I shoot? I'm like, listen, you could spend the rest of your life arguing with people about what caliber is great. Go to a. What I tell people is go to a gun store or a gun range that rents guns and literally just pick up some guns and start with what feels good in your hand. Yeah, like, for me, I actually don't like 1911's which is people will lose their mind. And I'm not saying that they're not awesome. I actually own some 1911 because they look cool. I don't. It doesn't fit well, man. Glocks fit great.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Sigs, I love the way that 365 sits in my hand. I would.

[Jay Wadsworth]

First time I've held a.365 in a long time. That fits. Really?

[Michael]

That's a bigger one. That's the fuse.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay.

[Michael]

I don't know what it is fused between, but I will tell you, as a fan of Sig, I'm the only thing I would use a.324 at this point would maybe be a framing hammer.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You know?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Allegedly. Or whatever I need to say to not get sued by Sig.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It's great.

[Michael]

I have no relationship with them. I buy all my guns and then.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They put out something not too long ago being like, they. They suggest you don't carry one in the chamber. Did you read that?

[Michael]

It's very Israeli.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I've had some interesting conversations with those that are in full belief that as you come out of the holster, you need to rack and go. And I'm like, listen, it's your life.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You do what you want. But I'm sorry that this argument of, well, we are the best in the world and it works really well where we are. That falls short with me because tactics. I am not aware of them having a zip code that. That they are contained by. It either works or it doesn't.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And the best shooters I know are coming out of the holster hot.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

But again, live your life how you.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Want to when you need it. When you need to go bang, it needs to go bang.

[Michael]

Oh, man. You start adding extra steps. But also, I'm not here to tell people how to tactically live their life. You're the one on the other side of the door or approaching the vehicle.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It's, you know, it's crazy. That's what I'm saying.

[Michael]

What's crazy is what happened in New York.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That is insane.

[Michael]

Yes. What? You're not current leo, are you? Are you still. No.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So I retired April of 2023.

[Michael]

Okay. So your recent Leo, though.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

The Internet is ablaze with theories. It's funny too. A lot of people are arguing. Maybe it's not funny, but it's just the way that it is. People have already reduced the argument down to whether or not the weapon used had a pistol brace or not. Because this is huge argument of what's a pistol and what's a rifle? Because what if it's a rifle caliber, but it Has a pistol brace. And again, I'm not even gonna enter into that.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, shouldn't matter.

[Michael]

You showed me the picture yesterday evening and my first comment to you was, wow, my man is just walking through New York with what looks like an ar, just arm extended towards a building and nobody seems to be responding to that.

[Jay Wadsworth]

There, there's one view that there's people on the other side of the street. There's tons of people. No one like sees this even if.

[Michael]

They did see it. For almost everybody, the move is to run anyway.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Nobody's moving but wild.

[Michael]

And then you had the picture of his. It does seem to be legit that he had a Vegas ccw.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

Which a lot of people online are really confused about. Concealed carry permits and what it takes to get one.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Correct.

[Michael]

Montana constitutional carry state. I think unless you have a felony or no heartbeat, they are required to. Actually you don't even need one. You're just allowed to carry.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So Florida just recently became the same.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I live. So like, unless you have like a conviction, I think it's either a misdemeanor felony conviction, then you obviously can't.

[Michael]

But point being the barrier to entry for a ccw, not incredibly high.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No. And you know, the, the thing like with New York is New York City is one of the strictest areas that you're not allowed to carry concealed carry permits and guns. So like there's no good guy stopping that. Like in Walmart that happened a couple days before that. The Walmart that was stopped by a guy that was a concealed carry guy. I think he was a former Marine or a retired Marine. Maybe it came out.

[Michael]

We might have to. Maybe he was. I don't know what I will say is his weapons presentation correct?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Leads me to believe that. That it had been a while since he had been a Marine. He had a little bit of the 90 degree cant to it, which I respect because you can assist it. You could add about 1 FPS downrange. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But also again, there's a difference between going through some firearms training and actually having to hold a live weapon at somebody. Things can come off the rails. I totally get it.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

So maybe in the moment he. He went with. With what he went with. But either way, yeah, he did stop that guy with the knife. And I have so many questions around that one. The guy with the knife was clearly out to try to hurt people.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Correct.

[Michael]

But stopped as soon as a weapon was pointed at him. So he had oftentimes it seems as if the people willing to do that, maybe, maybe they're not thinking about it from the terms of I'm going to kill myself but I'm going to have somebody else do it. They just seem to care a little bit less.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They don't necessari necessarily side by cop syndrome. That.

[Michael]

Yeah. You know, he stopped, from what I can tell, pretty much on a dime.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

Which is, you know. There he is.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah, there we go. Oh, well, hold on there. Go back.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's a two handed.

[Michael]

What is this? Thumb over the top? That is not going to feel good, sir. Three. Michael, two, one.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Pause. Oh.

[Michael]

Listen, I'm not gonna judge it. You know why? He got the job done.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He stepped in.

[Michael]

Yep, he got the job done. I will say this for those of you who value the skin on your non dominant hand, maybe rotate that a little bit more forward so it's facing the direction of the slide.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Don't put it there. Don't.

[Michael]

Yeah, don't put it there. Good for him for doing something. Yeah, but so look at the guy's posture with the knife. Why is he so willing to stab people? So I wonder what we.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Can we see the KN in his hand, Andy, do we see it or do we know if he maybe doesn't have it anymore?

[Michael]

I don't know.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So I think that would be my number one question would be like, does he have the.

[Michael]

Yep, there it is.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It was in his hand still.

[Michael]

It looked like a little folder too. It leads me to believe, and I'm not advocating that people necessarily do this, but if he had been confronted by somebody in the store, maybe not even armed, but guess what they sell in Walmart? Baseball bats.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Or go to the camping aisle. Maybe a nice hatchet. Sure, I'd see your knife. I raise you a hatchet.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I don't think they sell a mace there because that would be dope. Right.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I haven't seen mace there. They definitely sell hatchets. I bought a hatchet at Walmart before.

[Michael]

I wonder what would have happened if you'd been confronted by somebody in the store. And again, I'm not trying to give advice to anybody, but he stopped on a dime there. It appears as if he's folding the knife up and then backing up.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Correct.

[Michael]

I'm just curious there.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I don't know off the top of my head. Stats for being confronted with weapons other than firearms.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But most active shooters, when they're confronted initially by like police or by a firearm, that's when either they kill themselves or.

[Michael]

Yeah, usually that's when they turn it on themselves. Right.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So it's like the sooner someone can act. And again, disclaimer is like, don't act if you don't have the skills to not get in.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm not trying to get anybody to rush to get in a hospital ride casket. Right.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But if you have the skills or if you have that a personality where you're. You're going to jump in, like, the sooner someone on an act of violence, whether it's an active shooter, a guy with a knife, just an act of violence, the sooner someone jumps in, usually the sooner that situation resolves itself.

[Michael]

What I deeply respect here is let's say the man on the right. Let's guess his age.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right.

[Michael]

We're not going to be judgy, but I'm going to say 120.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He's definitely over 80, but he's there.

[Michael]

Yeah, he's get.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He's ready. He. We have.

[Michael]

Yeah, we have some people probably closer to our generation and. But my man is still up there. I don't know what he's going to do, but I respect that he's at the front lines.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's the generation that is. He's the generation far in between right now, unfortunately. And. And it's kind of like where they've in. And I don't like to get political, but, like, they've tried to take masculinity out of the mail and the masculinity in. In men is what has brought us freedom in this country. And obviously I'm 100 for what women do. I don't want to do. And they have their. Their benefits to what they do. But, like, we need more people that are trained or ready to step up in these situations. That's what we need in society. We become weak as a society, and unfortunately, it's caused a lot of problems.

[Michael]

You know, that guy has like the grandpa tone of voice who could probably disarm an act. Like, you put that down, son. And they. Oh, okay. You know, he's like the. The stern grandfather.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. That you're gonna listen to. You're right. And I guarantee you in his head he thinks that, like, if that dude doesn't pull a gun, like, he can probably disarm this guy. Like, he. In his head probably thinks he's gonna win that fight. Well, and maybe he can. I don't know.

[Michael]

Depending on the level of methamphetamine currently going through the man with a knife.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

Body, he might be able to.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're right. My dad's 83.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So he was in the military for eight years. He did a ton of time in Germany at Checkpoint Charlie on the Berlin Wall. He's 83. He thinks he's 50 still. Like, we have to, like, go take ladders away from him so you won't be climbing on things. Right. Like, he still thinks that. He's like. And I get it now. Like, I didn't used to get it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But I'm 47, going to be 48.

[Michael]

Same.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And I. When I'm grappling, I think I'm 24.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Still. And then after I'm like, oh, yeah.

[Michael]

Then you cool down.

[Jay Wadsworth]

My dad is not 24 anymore.

[Michael]

My dad is 78. And my children will sass him a little bit, which he. Honestly, I mean, Michael has heard, I don't know, countless stories. They never end because he just continuously does stuff. But he'll sit there, you better watch out, or this old man's going to get you. And then I watch, I'm like, you just had to rock six times to get out of that chair. Put it down. You know what I mean?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Never underestimate the power of the old man. My dad used to say, well, yeah.

[Michael]

But the problem is, I could go stand at arm's reach with him, finger on his shoulder. Like, old man can't get out of the chair. You'd be sitting there swinging like a child.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But they're gonna try. They mentally had the. The ability to teach. To tell themselves that, I can still do this.

[Michael]

Plus, if he did, you know, after rocking a half a dozen times, if he did get the momentum to stand up unassisted, he might be trouble.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're right.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You said yesterday we were talking, and I can't remember in the context, I think it was of, like, just jiu jitsu. But you were like. And I said, you know, and that's the problem, is most police officers aren't trained. They're not. They're not trained well. They're not like, soldiers don't know how to. And then you said, like, the same with, like, soldiers. Right. And it's just something that society doesn't understand. Cops are insanely under trained. The. The equation that they have built right now to train cops is just a failure. You can't train someone for six to eight months and expect them to be good and not keep training them.

[Michael]

Yeah. The question becomes, whose responsibility is it? Does it become the department? So they graduate their academy, they end up badged up, guns up, they're on the street, they got their Batman. You know, utility belt. Whose responsibility is it? Is it the department or is it the individual officer? So the answer is probably both or a version of.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I think the answer should be both. Right. If you're going to be a professional and being a cop, you are in a profession, so you are a professional, you need to be held to a standard of that profession. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of cops, and you know, I'm not putting anyone down, but this is just being honest to like, standards and policing are so low that it's, it's pathetic.

[Michael]

Is there a nationwide standard?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No. And it's a danger to society. I, I look at a lot of body cam videos. I break them down all the time, all day long. And for me it's like I ask guys like, would you want you to be showing up to back you up? Okay, one, and then two. I travel all the time. I'm not home to protect my family if someone breaks in. So the first cop showing up, I want to be, you know, hoping that that person's got an above standard or at least a high standard of training.

[Michael]

Do you think that departments realize what you're saying is true or do they lie to themselves and say that we're good to go?

[Jay Wadsworth]

They lie to themselves and I think they lie to themselves because of financial reasons and time. Time's a hot commodity no matter what we're doing. And where do we get time to train them continuously? Now there are models, there are ten hour shifts, but then you got to fight unions and stuff. There are 10 hour shifts where there's layover, there's, there's a lap, right? So one's on till five, the other one's coming in at four or whatever. There's an hour of training, there's ways to do it. But how do we train people continuously without spending a ton more money finding the time to. And then minimizing injury? Now listen, anytime you train, there's a possibility of injuries for sure. But people are training jiu jitsu every day across this country, across this world. And the majority of them walk outta class every day uninjured, maybe a bumper bruise. There's a difference between being hurt and injured. And unfortunately, there's this culture in police that like, if I get hurt, I'm getting 75%, I can retire 75%, right. So it's like, and that's probably untaxed, so you're probably making as much or more than you're making now. So people find ways to want to get hurt. People.

[Michael]

That's not unique to the law enforcement profession. And it's not, that's not unique to any occupation that has the, I don't want to say financial incentive because that's not correct. That has the financial. What it's supposed to be is a safety net.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Sure.

[Michael]

Anywhere. That, that and it, I've seen that.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It is supposed to be a safety net.

[Michael]

It is supposed to be a safety net. There are just, I mean any occupation. At the end of the day you are just talking about people. There will be people who use a safety net as a catapult as opposed to what it's supposed to be for. And that impact impacts the rest of the people that aren't trying to do that. And I will say I think it's the minority of people are looking to game the system like that. But it does have impact not only on everybody else but the public optic as well. The money issue for law enforcement. It's going to cost money either way.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

So if you, if somebody gets injured on the job that's going to cost money but also if there's a use.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Of force then you're going to get sued.

[Michael]

Yeah. Johnny, 12 donuts rolls up because you guys are cops, right? So you eat donuts. What would it be if it was firefighters? Johnny, Duncan, John, what would what if firefighters get.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Well they cook dinner every night and have sleepovers.

[Michael]

That's true.

[Jay Wadsworth]

My brother's a full time fireman and my dad used to do ride alongs with me cuz he was like all.

[Michael]

Gung h. But what do cops get cuz cop. And I also I have actually seen a cop in their cruiser pulling up to a Duncan and in my head I'm thinking hey dude, you and I both know that you all get made fun of for this. Don't do this, don't do it.

[Jay Wadsworth]

There was a group of us that like we just refuse to eat donuts. Like yeah, one I don't eat donuts. I might have one maybe once or twice a year.

[Michael]

Dude, you only live once. But like I have one or two.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I would never eat donuts on duty.

[Michael]

But what do firefighters get made fun of because it's cops and donuts. What is the firefighter one?

[Jay Wadsworth]

I think it's the cats and trees.

[Michael]

Right?

[Jay Wadsworth]

The sleep or cats and trees. So like my dad would do ride alongs with me. And so then I like the family gatherings. I would be like Brock, dad's doing a ride along with me. He wants to know when he can do a sleepover with you. Right. Like it's accurate, it's Accurate. And he would just be like, you took the wrong test.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I'm like, okay.

[Michael]

But so, okay. Injured. That's going to be money. You don't you realize that your officers need more training or maybe they need different equipment but you don't want to invest in it under the guise of money, a use of force incident occurs, like you said, you get sued, then that's a money issue. Now I don't know how insurance works in this. Do police departments have insurance?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No.

[Michael]

So because I know there's qualified immunity.

[Jay Wadsworth]

There's qualified immunity, but that is subject to the circuit courts saying, hey, if.

[Michael]

This, you should unpack what qualified immunity is as well.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So qualified immunities mean they can't individually be sued.

[Michael]

You can't go after j.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Correct. You can't go after my personal belongings or ownings. But qualified immunity can be taken away.

[Michael]

They were talking about that in New York.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right. But they also can be taken away in circuit court decisions. Like you'll look and they'll be like, okay, now this isn't up for qualified immunity or it is depending on whatever information they have up front. And this is going to be like, you know, on the civil litigation side, if it was is deemed justifiable or at least like that's the question of. So they can say this is like the circuit courts. There's multiple different decisions that they can look at of saying, hey, they're going to have qualified immunity or not. I can look at taking that away.

[Michael]

So again, we're talking about money.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

It's going to cost.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, it always costs. It's going to cost more. The other thing is also is like.

[Michael]

Well, it's going to have a cost regardless of which path you take. Why wouldn't you invest in them early?

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're right. And that's the thing. This is the. But this is the culture that's been built. Right. You build this culture. I mean, law enforcement is one of the most unfit professions we have.

[Michael]

How is that possible?

[Jay Wadsworth]

It's mind boggling.

[Michael]

I follow police posts.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Fitness is the foundation of everything.

[Michael]

I follow police posts. I'm not gonna lie. When the guy takes off running, it's a 50, 50. I'm cheering for him a little bit. And a little bit for the cop too.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But when the cop takes off and you can tell that their 40 time is triple digits.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Then it's 100. I'm cheering for the guy.

[Jay Wadsworth]

See, he's gone. He's gone. Right. And I used to always tell guys I would train or guys I worked with, like, if you lose sight of this guy, he's gone. If you work in an urban environment now, in a rural environment, it's easier because there's less places to go hide. But if you lose him in an urban environment, fences, houses, every. Every two feet, like, yeah, they're gone. Right. You can't lose sight of those guys. And it's funny because there was a challenge on Instagram going around, like, the last six months of, like, the foot pursuit challenge. Did you see that?

[Michael]

No. Which sound horrible. This sounds like how people get tased and they.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So it was like. I saw it with like, a police officer chasing a fireman.

[Michael]

Okay, that's a little bit better. I like this.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I saw police office tracing their spouse. Right. So it was like the foot pursuit challenge.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And I had made a post like, so on. On Twitter, or not Twitter on X now, whatever it's called. I went and, like, made like a little post and then I screenshotted it so I can put like one of my foot pursuits from a body cam and then put this on here. Like, people are busy doing foot pursuit challenges. Meanwhile, I was, you know, chasing down real suspects and fillers through challenges, like, on a weekly basis, basically. Right?

[Michael]

Yeah. But you're actually in shape. How was. How was policing or law enforcement one of the most unfit? How is this possible?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Because there's no standard. Again, so how is that possible? So the overwhelming majority of academies have a fitness standard to get in and graduate from. I don't know of one place that has a mandatory PT test on a yearly basis for a police department. I don't know one. Now, I'm not talking about, like, your SWAT team.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

We're talking about the basic functions of patrol. The over the. The department as a whole.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Now, for ours, we couldn't have a mandatory one, but they ended up doing, like, hey, 750 bucks if you sign up for. They would offer the PT tests, like, so many days in October and September and November. And then if you passed it at the 50 percentile, then you get $750. So as an incentive, one.

[Michael]

But isn't the incentive I wear body armor and carry a gun to work?

[Jay Wadsworth]

That should be right. That should be along with, I want to be a professional in what I'm.

[Michael]

Doing or maybe come home to my family, friends and loved ones.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But again, again, this is the way society has moved and generations have moved from being like what we talked about. Like, with that old guy. He wants to look good, fit and shape. I want to be Able to be like, I can fight and take care of my family to. I don't care. I'm going to wear this gun belt for eight hours. I'm going to take it off and I'm going to be a normal person, which is fine. Be a normal person outside of work. And I think, I don't think cops should live the job 24 hours. That's not healthy for them. But you need to be able to perform. If you're out of shape, you can't perform. Right. So it doesn't matter how good your tactics are, if your cardio stinks. Look at Jiu Jitsu. You could be the most phenomenal practitioner in the world. If you take a year off because you have an injury and you come back and your cardio is disaster. It's gonna be a rough open mat. Right. So, like, fitness is that foundation for everything. And then on top of fitness, fitness is going to make our tactics better because then we're going to be able to be more calm. We're not going to be out of breath. So it's like those two standards of one, a fitness standard and a consistent training standard. And I'm not talking just about, like, jiu jitsu or wrestling. And. And I'm even more on the. And we talked about this yesterday when we were rolling. Like, I have as much wrestling fundamentals as I do jiu jitsu fundamentals. So I look at it as like, grappling as a whole, especially for, like, combatives. It's grappling because we need to be able to be good on our feet.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And we need to be able to be good on the ground now on our feet. That's more wrestling than it is Jiu jitsu. If you go into most jiu jitsu gyms there, they suck on their feet.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right. So grappling mandatory. But it's not just grappling. Like, if I'm good at hands on stuff and Andy has a gun pointed at me from 20ft away, my grappling isn't helping me much.

[Michael]

No.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Now, it might help me stay calm and make better decisions, but I also need to be able to be able to move and present and, and process that. That tactic right away. So it's. We got to be training continuously across the board in tactics. It's not just in one aspect. Now, I will say the overwhelming majority of uses of force in the United States are hands on. So. And that is probably the. The area where we get the least amount of training to stop.

[Michael]

I want to stop you There, because I'm curious, is that because oftentimes your job terminates with cuffing somebody. And it seems like right when the bracelets hit the wrists is when people decide they don't want to participate in the evolution anymore.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Sure. If you have those 1 to 3 percenters, they're gonna fight the whole way in fight, getting them out of cuff.

[Michael]

Some just start, though, right when you.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Like, they're turned around, they feel one of the hands get controlled, and they're like, nope, I don't want to play anymore.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So if they're not combative right away or resisting right away, the highest percentage of time they become, like, resistant is on first touch.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. But once you get cuffs on, that's a different story. Yeah, most. Most people are like, done. Now you'll get the comment, like, oh, if I didn't have these cuffs on, you just, you know, you don't argue.

[Michael]

With them like you just had them off a second ago.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But yeah. And like, you just be like, yes, you're right. You know, like, now I've got to calm down because somebody else is gonna have to deal with them. I don't need to work them up anymore. Yeah, but you get that comment all the time, you know? Or I. I used to get the comment, like, if I had that gun and if you didn't have a gun and badge, like, I would. I would whoop your ass, you know? And I would be like, you're probably right, but let's not get you another charge. Let's go in now. There was one time when someone said that, and it was a deserving, but I looked him in the face and I said, this gun and badge is saving you right now. Right. Because I'm a professional at this point. I have a gun and badge, and I have to be a professional. I can't just go kick your ass if I wanted to kick your ass, you know, And. But then the. Over the overwhelming majority of time is I'm not riling this guy up for the next person that's got to handle him.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I know. As arresting this guy, he's getting handed off to corrections officers, to other. Other personnel, jail, whatever. Yeah. That have to deal with him. Right. So if they want to, like, think they can kick my butt. Okay, cool. You can. As long as that calms them down and it makes him happy.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I don't gotta fight this guy. I know I'm gonna beat that guy up. He doesn't train.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But. So I don't need to. And I think that's where, like, guys that don't train actually, like, try to use their verbal commands and, like, their. They get people riled up because, like, they feel like they have to, like, I don't. I don't want to go hands on. We looked earlier. The guy that's on meth that hasn't showered for five days, maybe two weeks. I don't want to have to get connected to him where I have to have inside head position to control him well and stuff. I don't want to touch that dude. If he'll get into custody by saying that. I would kick your ass if you didn't have a badge and gun. You probably can, but let's not give you another charge. And that solves it. That's what I want to do for sure. And that's probably because I'm comfortable in my skills. Right. If you're not comfortable in your skills, someone says that to you, they get more ramped up now. And now it just escalates the situation up.

[Michael]

Well, you have to have skills to be comfortable in.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Agreed.

[Michael]

If you take away. I've never understood. You guys work in an occupation where physically touching people is literally part of the job.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

I don't see how anybody who works in that career field doesn't want to be as good as possible at that particular range. In addition to the other skills, you have to touch people for your job. And like you said, if on first touch is the most likely time they're gonna resist. You're in grappling range right there.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right there.

[Michael]

Why would you not be incredibly proficient in that? Because if you're not, you're gonna be reaching for your Batman tool belt real fast. Cause those are the only tools that you have. And if you go with your non lethal first, we've all have enough time on YouTube. Why does this not work on some people? And some people, they freaking the taser. Yeah. Why doesn't. I mean, we're talking good probe, strike.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And the guy's like, this is an easy explanation. I was taser instructor for years. I've only tased two people in my life.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Because hopefully one of them was Adam, obviously. No. But that could be my third.

[Michael]

Yeah. He wouldn't complain probably much.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. I've only tased two people in my life, and they were both, like, very interesting.

[Michael]

But did they go falling tree or did they take it?

[Jay Wadsworth]

One went falling tree. It was a suicide. Guy staying out with a knife. And the last time they had this situation, the guy fled back into his house and held his mom, who was an old lady. Yeah, it was. Became a patrol hostage situation in my buddy at the time, and still a good buddy of mine now was a lieutenant. He ended up getting stabbed in it because obviously, hostage situation. Right. And he was on that call that's called because that guy in New York bail reform, he was out already. And we had this call again, and he had some more junior guys with him that first time. And he's like, I saw him, and they had their guns out, and they're talking. It's like a suicide by cop thing. So you're trying not to shoot the guy, but, like, if you have to, you have to. And I immediately just started to flank, and he started to flank with me because we didn't have to talk about it or tell this guy we're doing. We just read each other, right? So, like, I went less lethal because I saw two other guys with lethal, and I'm like, I'm gonna get a shot to the back. But he's this big knife. I didn't want him falling forward and landing on the knife and, like, maybe stabbing himself. So, like, I tried to wait till he put, like, his knife in a weird position, which worked, and then I tased him, and I got really good pro placement, so I got immediate lockup, which is we'll talk about in a minute. But he fell straight backward and say, like, there's a stair. Yeah. The corner of his hip hit the corner of the stair. So then after the five seconds goes off, we get his hands behind his back. He's screaming. We cuff him, we go sit him up. And he's like, I broke my hip. And we're like, sit up, dude. Like, you're fine. Whatever. We called for medical. They're coming. And he's like, complaining. We're like, yeah, right. He didn't break his head. Well, we get called, like, broke his hip. He broke his head when he hit the side of the stair on the taser. Right.

[Michael]

Better than taking your life in a really low moment.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. And we were under this the same impression, my partner and I, or it was my. My lieutenant at the time was like, that dude's not going back in the house. Last time I went back in the house, he held his mom hostage with a knife. Like, we're not letting him get back in the house.

[Michael]

Yeah, there's no. There's no math in that equation that gets better by adding an additional person or persons.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So we.

[Michael]

So.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So that worked out. That was, like, the second time I tased a person. And I was, okay, this is why I don't tase people. Like, whatever, it worked. And it was, it was the best answer at the time, right? Cause otherwise you'll probably have to shoot the guy. But taser, there's a big misconception that when you touch taste someone, that's only pain compliance. Okay. So if I touch tase you, it's just like a regular taser and I'm just tasing you and touching you. Probe placement. If I get both probes above the waistline, it's only affecting my upper body.

[Michael]

Oh, really?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Realistically, it's only affecting between the two probes. Okay. Okay, so now if you get two probes above the upper body and it's not. It's inside my arms. My arms can still move, my legs can still move.

[Michael]

Is there torso locked up though?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, because this is where the probe placement ends. Like say navel, chest. Now say if I go chest and in the front, you're not supposed to shoot above, like say the nipple line.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay, say I go chest, thigh, and that, that's gonna lock them up. Yeah, because that locks up what they call the upper hemisphere and the lower hemisphere. So most of the time when you get taser failures, it's not actually the tasers failing, it's a probe placement is failing. And then it's the tactics following.

[Michael]

Can you really control the spread of the probe or is it just designed to come out of the cartridge so.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It'Ll tell you like one comes out straight and one comes down.

[Michael]

Is that, is there two red lights that they're looking at or one?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, just one. Okay, now some of them have two, but now there's a taser 10 and I can explain that in a minute. But the first probe comes out straight, more of like your 90 degree trajectory. Then the other one comes down and I think it's a 45 degree angle or some sort of angle downwards. Okay, so the closer I am, the lesser the probe for sure. Spread I'm going to get. So if I get a minimal probe spread, then I follow up drives on the opposite hemisphere and it'll connect it.

[Michael]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay, so when you see the taser failing, one, the probes are too close or they only have one connection. This happens a lot in your northern states. Montana, cold jackets, whatever. Okay, maybe one of the connections didn't make it. So I got one in the leg and the jacket one's not. So then my drive son should be above the torso.

[Michael]

Unless they're running.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So then like that, that's where you get that lockup.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And that's called NMI neuromuscular incapacitation.

[Michael]

That's called the falling tree.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So when that happens. So the taser works.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And the reason it works in training every time is because they put like an alligator clip on your shoulder and one on your ankle. Oh, of course. That's optimal placement, right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So when taser fails, it usually fails because pro placement is too close and there's no follow up drive sun to the opposite hemisphere. Or, or you have only one connection. Maybe you have two bad connections. But that's where the, the operator then has to process that and then follow up the drive some. The only time they really should be drive stunning is following up probe places.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It's the same use of force if I deploy the probes and if I don't one's pain compliance and one's going to get you a neuromuscular incapacitation if you do it correctly. Now the Taser 10 just came out. The Taser 10.

[Michael]

Michael, I need to see an image of this.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay.

[Michael]

Judge Dread gun.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So I, it came out. I didn't, I didn't get to use one or get trained on it at work, but I was actually. That looks the same. Yeah. So I was actually at Michigan, Michigan State Police doing a course. We were there for like three or four weeks and they were teaching what they were, they were training on the 10. Okay.

[Michael]

Do all 10 of those probes come out at different.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Every trigger pull pulls a different probe. Now this is probably their best design.

[Michael]

Oh, here we go.

[Jay Wadsworth]

The. But the problem with this one is is it's going to take more training because now you got that officer that's freaking out just uncontrollably could fling out 10 probes that he has no idea where they're going.

[Michael]

So with each trigger pullers two still coming out.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No one.

[Michael]

So you have to pull the trigger twice.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So the good part about that though is I. And it goes up to 40ft where most tasers are about I think 25, 27, 35.

[Michael]

So you could intentionally aim upper and lower hemisphere.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. So I could go upper hemisphere. Good, good connection. Now I start to go lower hemisphere or I go upper hemisphere. It misses. I go upper hemisphere again. Then I go lower hemisphere. So the Taser 10 is going to have probably a higher success rate.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But it's gonna take more training because this thing, think of it and it's, it's actually right now by definition still defined as a Weapon because it's fired by a blank round.

[Michael]

Oh, is it?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. So if you think about, like, she.

[Michael]

Is real close to that guy, so.

[Jay Wadsworth]

She can make that connection. And now that's upper. So now she would want her next one to go lower. Yes, just like that.

[Michael]

Man, they better pay that stunt double. Good.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So.

[Michael]

Because he just. Oh, man, he got. She got him three times.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And you could go a third. Right now there is. And don't call me on this Internet sensation, but like, understanding our Internet world. But I believe it only will put, like, a lot the. The electric feeling.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Outage to only three or four. So, like, say you shot him a time. It's only going to put it out to like, the three or four best connections.

[Michael]

All right.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But I think wherein lies a problem where instructors and trainers have to be more disciplined is one of the handgun rules on the range is know your target, know what is around it, behind it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's going to be the issue with this because Taser gets deployed a lot in congested spaces. And now we're flinging probes that could miss and we're flinging under stress. And we know a lot of them are great shots anyway. So understanding that, like making sure what is around and behind their target when they're just whipping. Whipping probes out. So they need to be more disciplined in the training of. Of doing so.

[Michael]

Was it your neck of the woods where the officer unloaded his magazine into the squad car because of the acorn.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That wasn't near me?

[Michael]

I. I assume anything like that happens in Florida, but you already know what I'm aware of. Speaking of hucking things down range.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. Like, he fell to the ground and just started. Now he. Can you imagine being the suspect?

[Michael]

Oh, here we are. Yeah, here we are. He was Code black.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It was. It was for Fort Walton Beach, Florida.

[Michael]

Of course it was.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Now I'm. I'm southwest Florida, so I'm like, no, down further.

[Michael]

But important thing.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Focus on this after the comment fla. Oh, God. That is a rough angle to his partner.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And I think he's saying he's hit here too.

[Michael]

He did earlier.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So there probably was some sort of PTSD in this situation, I'm assuming. I don't know. I didn't look much into the background of the guy. I did hear he was some sort of form of military. So I don't know if that played into his PTSD of hearing that acorn hit on the hood.

[Michael]

But here's a thought. If you're gonna have that reaction because you're having that issue, which is, I think, a totally normal issue. You need to handle that to make sure that this doesn't happen.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Shockingly enough, the man in the back, uninjured.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

Can you imagine that ride, though? Just hold still.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No.

[Michael]

Hold still.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No. And like, I'm going floorboard.

[Michael]

I'm diving to the floorboard.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Probably his best choice there. I think so, like, his best chance. And I don't even know if you. Some of them, you can't even get down that because, like, they have, like, the. In the middle where your feet go in those moments.

[Michael]

I fit.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, you get down there, Michael.

[Michael]

Go back to right where he starts shooting. This angle on his partner is so tight.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Crossfire, though, is a huge look issue.

[Michael]

And police look posit, Michael.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. And you know what do on cars?

[Michael]

Oh, I know. They go all over the place. Look at that. I mean, it's. That's 15. Under, 15 degrees off.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, I get it.

[Michael]

I mean, the person was in the moment, you legitimately, if you. Yeah. It's something you have to learn to manage over time. But that guy might have been full on code black.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I. I will tell you, though, we've been talking a lot, especially because we become really popular in our vehicle extraction stuff. And pulling a guy out of the car is the easy part. Mitigating the crossfire when shit goes bad is the hard part.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And a lot of it is, like, it's very difficult to mitigate crossfire on a flat range.

[Michael]

Mitigate the crossfire on a flat range.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Because nobody goes downrange realistically. Right. So, like, do you guys split the.

[Michael]

Center line of the vehicle, or do you pick a side, left or right?

[Jay Wadsworth]

I like going same side approach.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Now, it's not wrong to. To go opposite side approach. It's not wrong.

[Michael]

It adds complexity with your angles, though.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, it adds complexity if you do. And there's times for it. I'm not saying, yeah, same side every time is 100. But, like, especially if we're gonna do the extraction on, like, same side. If you approach on opposite sides. My preferred method, if I go opposite side of my partner is like, if he's on the B pillar, which would be the back side of the driver's door. My partner is on C pillar on the other side. So we're offset. Our trajectory of angles are different, Right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And that's not trained. But the problem is, if we're both on B pillar, you can high elbow that thing all you want, and we're right across from each Other. And that guy's in the middle of us.

[Michael]

And so I said it. The rounds, I mean, the glass itself, little in the metal in the vehicle. That can get real spicy. Sure.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yep. So we've really been like working on like getting people to move together. Like, what is your plan if it goes bad? I don't know. We're just gonna move. Well, how are you gonna move? Like if you're in a team, you guys know how you're moving. You know how to think about it.

[Michael]

Well, we, we train those scenarios. I mean.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right.

[Michael]

We.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But in patrol, they don't train these scenarios.

[Michael]

Again, how is that possible?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Possible.

[Michael]

It's part of your, you know, the reason why we train them. Because it was part of our job.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Correct.

[Michael]

It's also part of your job.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

And again, this comes back to money. Does it cost money to bring people to give them training days and bring people in and have training ranges? Yes, but it's going to cost you more money if it goes wrong. And somebody, whether it's in disability for an officer, catching around they shouldn't or killing somebody that didn't deserve to die and suffering through the lawsuit.

[Jay Wadsworth]

There's.

[Michael]

Here's the question on this video. Say he had a taser. 10. How many of those 10 do you think would have been out?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Probably all of them.

[Michael]

I'm thinking 11.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I mean they'd have been bouncing off the metal.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But yes, it's interesting, you know, like, you know, when I was young, I. I thought like I was fast and the training cartridges are only 15ft, you know, for taser.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You know, I was like, I could outrun that before you can draw and hit me.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I was wrong.

[Michael]

What's your guys rule? 21 foot rule.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So it's not rule anymore.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And I like it.

[Michael]

Principle, if you will.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So the. They came out and basically said the 21 foot rule isn't a rule. It's more of like a guideline because.

[Michael]

That'S the distance somebody's supposed to be able to close. For an officer to come from a holster to a. Ready.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. If he's charged with a knife.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. And the guy can get up and on. They're saying that you can get stabbed within 21ft.

[Michael]

And for everybody listening, 21ft, that's a huge amount of distance. Go tape it out.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. It's not a lot closer than you think. Yeah. It's only seven feet or seven yards. It's seven yards.

[Michael]

It's basically three. It's me laying down three times plus Another three feet.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes, and three and a half of me. Then you got to think of, like, how fast are they processing it?

[Michael]

Damn, Michael, you're on it today, right?

[Jay Wadsworth]

How fast? I'm always processing it. And then are they fear? Right. Has three responses. Fight, flight, or freeze. If they were fighting, they'd be going forward. So we can take that out. If they flight, they almost always go straight backwards. And now they're still going slower than the guy coming forward. And they're probably gonna have their balance compromised. And they're fall to ground two, they're gonna freeze, and they're not moving. So we do this drill, like all the time in a really based training setting.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then we train to that too. Right. So. And again, it comes back to, like, understanding the body's response to fear and then movement. Human beings move backwards. Backwards, yeah, away from the fear. They're not taught to move laterally. They're not taught to move forward. They're not taught to cut angles. That is a trained response.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So until they train that, they don't get it right. And then in law enforcement, they line 25 guys up on the range, and they do courses of fire standing still. And they get 80 hours in the academy on handgun, on average. Okay. That's the average they get in the academy. They've probably never shot a gun before in their life. So now they get 80 hours of training, and then they go into field training with only 80 hours on a gun. And probably no movement, no combative fighting, no positioning, that kind of stuff. Right. So that's like just. Again, the police training model is broken. I was looking for that earlier police training model. I can't remember I said equation. But the police training model is broken. It. It's not even broken. It's just. It's old and bad. It just completely needs revamped. We train in silos. That's. That's too predictable for like the 360 real world environment. Yeah, sure. Fundamentals on the range, fundamentals in dt, fundamentals in railway based training, fundamentals in cqb. But now, when do we bring them? When do we bring those walls down in those silos and train them together? Because in police work, most shootings happen from zero to seven feet.

[Michael]

Really?

[Jay Wadsworth]

And it's dynamic and usually around a car in low light conditions.

[Michael]

Man. So here's what's wild. If they have that data collected and they know that, but yet they're not training that scenario at a minimum.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No.

[Michael]

That is insane.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I do a thing now when I go to all my classes. And I'll say, okay, everyone in here. And I'll say, in the civilian policing world, if you were deployed in the military, this doesn't count because it's just different rules of engagement. Okay.

[Michael]

Slightly.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And I'll say, all right, raise your hand if you've tased more than five people in your career. And let's just go with an average room of 30. I may get two or three, maybe four that have tased more than five people in their career. Raise your hand if you've pepper sprayed more than five people in your career. A couple. Usually they're correction officers and that's their number one tool. Or maybe it's just the older guys where that was like one can, one man was kind of the concept back then, you know, that's rough for the.

[Michael]

Back of your squad car.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Somebody's got to clean that out.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So less than five minutes. And this is the one where I. I specifically say civilian policing, not like in military or rules. Again, raise your hand if you've shot more than five people. Nobody's raised their hand yet.

[Michael]

Yeah. Okay, that's a good thing.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then I'll say, raise your hand if you've gone hands on and had to fight a resistant subject or actively combat subject more than five times. Everyone raises their hand.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's part of your guy's job.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It's the overwhelming majority of the thing. What we do once they resist arrest, Right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Because even higher percentages, if we say, hey, you're under arrest, and they turn around, they put their hands back and we put cuss on them. But nobody hears about that because most of the time, people are cooperative.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

We only see the uncooperative ones. No one wants to see a cooperative person get cuffed. That's boring. Right? So, like, we know what we need to train. That's why, like, when Grand Rapids had that viral video in 2022 where the guy shot the guy in the bed, the cops on the guy in the back of the head.

[Michael]

What?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So it's a vehicle stop intentionally.

[Michael]

Well, we're talking like contact shot to the back of the head.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So it just. It just got. It was just in trial in April and maybe April, May. And it was a. I'm having a brain fart.

[Michael]

Is it Patrick Leoya?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. Okay.

[Michael]

Michael's on it today.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So let's be honest.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It was a Patrick case.

[Michael]

Let's be honest, his performance.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Anyways, out of the jury, it was like 12, like 11 to one said not guilty. And one it was. They are deadlocked. So it was hung jury or whatever they call it. And so this is it. But this fight goes on for about 3 minutes and 19 seconds. Patrick actually takes the taser from the cop. They're fighting on the ground. So you see the foot pursuit.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. So he's got head control. The guy builds a base, he gets back up again, then he goes to taser.

[Michael]

Is that too close for a taser or could you dry?

[Jay Wadsworth]

So you could. You could present taser there if you earn your draw. It's just like a handgun. Like if I pull a gun out, as I'm pulling it out, the bad guy has as much fight to the gun artaser as I do.

[Michael]

It's not too. You're going to get a minimal spread, though.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Minimal spread, but you could minimal spread some.

[Michael]

That's what I was asking.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, right. You could. Or. But like, you have to earn. So now this is like three minutes in. This is where he gets his gun out. And as he's starting to lose his balance here.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He. He ends up firing around and shooting him. This is three minutes into the fight. And the suspect has the guy's taser here. Okay. So their expert, the prosecution, they charge him with murder. The expert witness basically says that this is a dominant position the cop is in when he fires his gun that he should have disengaged. Right.

[Michael]

Technically. Does he know how to hold the dominant position? Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So he doesn't have.

[Michael]

I can tell you right now, yeah, he's.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He's off balance. Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. My man. That guy's just going to stand up.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Sure.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And he already did stand up once from this position. And he's got the guy's taser, which is deployed both times. But again, Graham Connor, hindsight of 20 20, the cop only knows it's been deployed once.

[Michael]

Gotcha.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. So he's also worried about it being deployed on him. Okay. Their big thing was here is that he was in dominant position. I actually spoke with his attorney just prior to trial because they couldn't. The judge was fairly liberal and didn't want any more expert witnesses coming in on the defense side. So I actually spoke to her and I actually like took the prosecution's expert witness test. Expert witness deposition. I broke that down to her and be like, this is how I cross examine him. Because they specifically said that this is a dominant position. So one.

[Michael]

I mean, in theory, you're on top.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're. In theory, you're on top. And that's what they're saying. Right. So now we talk about trends, but this position here, we know that when they build a base or halfway to standing, it's very dangerous and most people get high.

[Michael]

Well, he also has no control. He's got one foot on the ground, one foot up. His right hand has his firearm in it. So it's not even on the body. And his left hand looks like it's stuffed high rib cage underneath the armpit. So I guess an underhook on that side. But he's not using it as an underpinning.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He doesn't know what he's doing here. Right. So it's not a dominant position. Even though he's on top. Because that guy's gonna stand up.

[Michael]

Up.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He's already stood up once from the same position.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. So I ended up sending her three videos that were from 2024 of cops being chest to back. Back mount or backside control. Chest to back. They got the suspects building a base and all, all of them falling over the top. And now being underneath this guy.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And said, how are we saying that this is a dominant control position? It's not one. He's got his gun out, giving verbal commands to stop. His gun is out. Then he keeps fighting at, at this position. He's losing his balance is obviously when he shoots. Shoots.

[Michael]

Yeah. Because he probably felt the tipping point and felt himself.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Correct. Now I wish I could have testified in there because it would probably. Instead of it being like the, the hung jury or they're deadlocked because 11 of them, I forget the numbers, 11 to 1 or 12 to 1, whatever it was. 12 of the jurors said that it was not guilty. And one juror was like, no, he's guilty, whatever.

[Michael]

So what do they do, retry it if it's no.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So it's like a hung jury or it's called mistrial. So they do a mistrial and then the prosecution has the ability to retry it or not retry it. And they chose not to.

[Michael]

Gotcha.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. So anyways, I had put this whole presentation together like, and sent her this and been like, I know I can't testify for you this late into it, but this is how I would attack cross examining the subject matter expert for the prosecution.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So again, it comes down to like the visual look of this looks like, oh, he's behind him and he's on top. He could disengage. But people don't understand the off balancing. What commonly happens from this position, what has already happened from this position in the Video earlier on.

[Michael]

Yeah. And so Michael go backwards like 15. I just want to. I'm curious to see.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I mean.

[Michael]

Oh, boy.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So. So do you see?

[Michael]

Yeah, he. Yeah, I'm just curious to see.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So this is where he takes the taser.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then this is more of them.

[Michael]

Like, I like that. Like, you know, like, okay. You know, you could, but this is already not good. No. You could easily be shucked forward and end up on the bottom as well.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And in three minutes. And the officer basically is like, at this point in the fight, I'm exhausted. Disengaging was not an option for me because I don't know how fast I could have disengaged or whatever.

[Michael]

If you train.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That's three minutes into a fight is just past halfway in one of ten rounds you're gonna do in an hour.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're right. And that's. That's where training can actually save lives. Right. Because if that's you, Andy, or me or somebody else, you know, we're not there right in the time. But we know how to defeat this position.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

We know how to break this guy back down. We know how to control this position. And it's gonna. It's gonna be much more efficient for us. It's gonna be much more safer for the suspects that we're arresting now. The administration in Grand Rapids. And he was a lieutenant at the time, and now he's a captain. He was in charge of, like, their training program. He looked at it and he was like. And he wore a lot of the weight of this guy getting charged on his chest being like, I didn't provide him with good enough training.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And he contacted us June of 2022. We go in, we do a two day, like, officer control and custody weapons based entanglement. They loved what they saw. They implemented us full into their training. Now they have 28 EFC instructors. They have their own grappling team in their PD. They have gone all in. And he does a presentation at the end of the year for us. And it is amazing, like the. The efficiency and effectiveness they're having with their arrests and their uses of force. They had a vehicle extraction. They pulled a guy out. Guys going for a gun in his waistband. They're talking stapling, pinning. Everything we talk about in there. They're actually talking to each other. Cops are staying calm. I got the gun pinned. Okay. Staple this army, you know, someone's got cover. And they. They had four incidents that way in 2023, and none of them ended up in shootings do you know what the.

[Michael]

Original cause for contact was between these two?

[Jay Wadsworth]

I believe it was either a suspended reg or unregistered vehicle. And then he had no license and he was intoxicated or believed to be under the influence of something. And that was the reason for getting him out of the car, I believe.

[Michael]

License plate. Yeah. But I hate, you know, whatever drunk people do drunk people stuff. But for one, I hate to Monday morning quarterback the cop because I'm sure if he could take back anything in his life, that would be at the top of the list. But I also. It's like, it doesn't need to escalate to this level. This is an unnecessary loss of life. Justified or not. I'll leave that for the course to decide.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And when you're in origin camp, look up. He's a blue belt. His name's Captain Dave Cyver. He's actually the captain now for Grand Rapids Police Department has implemented us and he has let. He has been like the administration leading from the front of we need continuous training. And it has changed their. Their department's use of force, like totally. And he'll be at origin camp. He goes every year.

[Michael]

If you were to. And again, this is Monday morning quarterbacking. But I'm doing this through the lens of you can save lives by investing in your people early.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

A blue belt can handle this problem 100% of the time, easily, without issue.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

To control somebody who has not trained, it's not magic. That's one thing I actually dislike about gg. Oh, it's magic, Mike. It might feel like magic. You're just going up against somebody who doesn't understand the leverage, the mechanics, the weight, all those things. But I just hate seeing people like, the loss of life is avoidable. Overwatch, license plate.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Like, and this guy might be intoxicated and made a poor decision.

[Michael]

Totally. I get it.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And we didn't need. He didn't need.

[Michael]

I've made a lot of poor decisions intoxicated. And I've need other people. I have needed other people to have a higher level of training or awareness to me. Not that I'm not going to get into a fight with cops. I prefer to run with them when I'm drunk. Not a big deal.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You probably get away from a lot.

[Michael]

I did in that particular incident. I've only done it once. It is. It was. It was costly.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It was costly.

[Michael]

But today's episode is brought to you by Element, sometimes seen with just the letters lmnt. It's okay to say it like that or you can also say element. Well, here's the deal. With every packet or sparkling water of element, here's what you're going to get. 1,000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, 60 milligrams of magnesium. Now this is the bubbly water. I love pouring this over ice and cutting it with a little bit more water. But I travel with these because I mean anybody on video could tell that this is going to be really rough to travel with and they're actually going to take it from you at the TSA checkpoint because obviously you're a terrorist if you are worried about your electrolyte balance while traveling. These packs though, super convenient. I start my morning by cracking one of these open 12 to 16 ounces of water. I drink half of it with some collagen peptides and that's how I start my day. Minimum for me after a jiu jitsu training session is a probably 16 to 20 ounces of water to rehydrate and a full packet of one of these. That's here in the U.S. if I'm over in Costa Rica, two to three per day. Can you drink too much? Yes. Is there a feedback loop for that? Yes. It involves a toilet. I'll let you figure out how to connect those two in your brain. You have to push your limits sometimes to find your limits. There is so much science surrounding why this product is good and it is described by people way smarter than me, like Huberman or Rob Wolf, one of the co founders who happens to be a friend of mine. I've known him since the CrossFit days. We trained jiu jitsu here locally until he moved to a different city in Montana. And I remember him bringing these things early on on, on labeled and wow, what a difference between just rehydrating with water and the 1260 of sodium, potassium and magnesium respectively. Life changing for recovery, for brain focus, reducing brain fog. And this is just me anecdotally talking about the difference that I feel. It's unbelievable for fans of old movies. The old Tron, the original one, which in comparison to the current, you know, the graphics and the ability of CGI is laughable at best. They basically had a Frisbee that they would scoop into water and they would drink it and they would start glowing a darker blue. You need to go back and watch this, by the way. This is the documentary. That's how I feel when I drink this stuff. I'm not saying it's gonna do that and make it glow blue. I'm just saying that's the best way that I can describe how it feels. They got spicy stuff that's great in cocktails. They have chocolate flavors around the wintertime months for hot chocolates and a variety of flavors in these packets and also in the bubbly water. So what I recommend is heading over to drinklement.com cleared hot and you're gonna get a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Which is the best way to figure out what you like. Sample a bunch of different stuff and go with what you like and don't go with what you don't like. The 16 ounce sparkling water is a little bit newer. I have a coffee shop. We order cases of this every week. It flies out the door and there's a reason for it. It's delicious and it works. Drink element.com cleared hot. Back to the show again. I mean it's gonna cost you money either way.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Put it into the people up front.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're right. And we know that that's the answer. That is the answer. The problem is it's gonna have to be lit. Written legislation of making training mandatory for departments for them to do that. The posts are going to have to come down. So like post standards. Yeah, for each state is going to. Because there's no national like standard. The post, who's like the governing body of training. And most states is going to say, hey, you guys have to train this much now Like California is, they have to train four hours every two years.

[Michael]

Strong.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Strong, right?

[Michael]

Very. Stay frosty if you will.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Pennsylvania just came out and they put four hours a year before. It was nothing though.

[Michael]

Who is writing that and thinking that's acceptable?

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's the problem. It's people that don't understand. They're not. People don't understand these guys, they don't understand. It's lawyers, it's politicians that have no idea how to do it. Like my, my friend, he was a captain of Grand Prairie Police Department in Texas. Sits kind of in the Dallas Fort Worth metropolitan area. He just retired a couple weeks ago, but he's a black belt. He implemented a jiu jitsu program in his police department where they had their own mat room and stuff. He had like 350 man department. He had like I think 80 guys training Jiu Jitsu, like seven or eight black belts. And he did a five year study of how that changed their use of force.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's going to decrease.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Substantially.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. And it decreases. And when you do have the use of force, the outcomes of suspect and officer injury go down. I mean we know that's the answer. Like I'm working right now with Colorado Springs Police Department. I have the contract for their PERF and National Institute justice study. So PERF basically did a study for them and said this is what you guys need to redo. And it's 148 pages, it's online. If you go to like the Colorado Springs city website, the big thing they're saying is officers need more hands on training and more reality based training. Which is like in, in the seals would be like your black hood drills.

[Michael]

Or just scenario based training.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, some sort of scenario based training.

[Michael]

The black hood drill, the hooded box drill if you will. It has some value to it. I think structured scenario based training has equal value with less woo woo smoke and mirrors.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So like you, I think you have to have both. And if you work up from box drills to scenario training, the one thing scenario training doesn't do that the box drills do. And they both have pros and cons for things that they hit on there.

[Michael]

It doesn't snapshot you with the information.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right. So box drills force you to process right away. Right. Where scenarios. If I say okay, we're doing the scenario on and I already know it's a CQB or we don't have to.

[Michael]

Tell them what the scenario is.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, you could do that as well. So any type of scenario drilling where there's going to be some sort of resistance or something that they have to make decisions on, process and then handle correctly. Right. Most people don't do that because it takes too much time. There's not, they're probably going to get hurt. They're not adding resistance. And when you don't have resistance and things you're not going to see improvement.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Because you have to put your people under pressure. You have to pressure them right away. If you don't pressure them right away, they're not going to process, they're going to get nervous. And we know from zero to seven feet is where shootings occur. These bad things occur. Stabbings are like zero to I think zero to three feet.

[Michael]

Well average arm length. Zero to whatever. Average arm.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's before they see the knife I think is 0 to 3. They don't see the blade until it's within 0 to 3. So now you're already behind the eight ball.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And so any type of pressure testing scenarios is very unordinary in police work. And unfortunately that's what they wanted more. So Colorado Springs ended up hiring us. There was A whole bunch of departments or companies that put in for it came down to two of us and then we ended up winning it. Probably because we're more grappling law enforcement based integration like with weapons. And we have police officer experience and we have a really based training program. That's our level two is just all reality based training where we teach them how to run it safely, how to develop the drills, how to have the role players run correctly, how to coach that correctly, how to add resistance. And so I had to go to Colorado Springs for four weeks and do level one and two back to back for them. And then the grant is paying for them to give the officers 20 hours each of training and then they're going to start the study. So like post EFC and then pre efc. So they're gonna take body cam video from three years prior implementation, then three years post.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Now they have to the end of this year to get it rolled out through all their guys. And they asked me like, what would you suggest we work on in this 20 hours? And I said I would do because they're going to do five four hour training sessions. I said I would do the same thing all five times. So four hours of one man in team control and custody.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And just keep doing it. Because that's the overwhelming majority of time we use force.

[Michael]

What it is, I was going to say look at the statistics of where it's happening and reverse engineer.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. And that's what we did. Said I want, I want you guys. And this is just my opinion. They can choose what they want to do, but they listen to me. You know, And I said all five of those sessions should be control and arrest tactics. Solo and team in what we trained. Concept and principle based. Because they're not going to learn tech. They're not going to be good at a triangle in 20 hours. Right. So it's like understanding what is positioning, what are angles, what what is if Andy is on top, you know, low mount on me or knee on top. Say what's the second guy do? Goes and anchors the leg. What's the third guy do? Anchors the head. Right. Having this plan in place. So now you know where you come in. And then that's where we see tactics just being super efficient.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So that's what they're doing. So by the end of this year that should be implemented there. And then we'll see how that comes back. But we already know the turnout because Grand Rapids already did it.

[Michael]

Yeah. What are the use of force? What is it? Pennsylvania Versus Mims. Where. For law enforcement, broadly. Where does it come from, the regulations of use of force?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No. So Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania vs. Mims is a vehicle case law that states that I can interview the driver of the vehicle.

[Michael]

Okay. I'm going down my sovereign citizen rabbit hole. Because that's what they say. Pennsylvania versus Mims.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, But Pennsylvania. And to their. Like, they're basically saying that we can ask them that I could walk up to a car on.

[Michael]

No, the cops are the ones who talk because they'll say, hey, I need you to read my document.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yes. I don't want you to see my YouTube history because I may have a robust. I'm sorry. I love them.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. They're.

[Michael]

I'm not driving. I'm traveling.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They're interesting, the cops that go, well.

[Michael]

What seat are you traveling in? They're like the driver's seat. I mean.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So Pennsylvania versus Mims basically says I can conduct my interview with the driver anywhere. So if I ask them to come out of the car, they have to come out.

[Michael]

They don't like that one.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They don't like that.

[Michael]

No, they don't like that one at all because they're not contracting with the government.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Government, correct.

[Michael]

Yeah. What. What is the use of force?

[Jay Wadsworth]

The. The major.

[Michael]

Yeah, the major.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Graham versus Connor.

[Michael]

What was that one about impact? A little bit.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Graham versus Connors, actually. The cop sees a car pull up in front of, like, a store and a guy get out, run in, and then run right back out. So he assumes that it looked like there was some sort of robbery that had taken place.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So they basically make contact with this car, get the. Get the passenger out and try to, like, detain him. Any fights. Okay. And they take him into custody or whatever. So he actually was having some sort of medical issue, and so he was running in there to look. I think he was diabetic. So he's running in there to insulin, maybe like orange juice or something. And they didn't have it, so he came running back out, and then that occurred. So basically they're saying, like, there's three factors that the court should consider and use force. And then there's all these other factors that the court consider as well, but it's like severity of the crime. Okay. It's going to be like one. One of the factors that the core wants to consider. Whether he's resisting arrest or attempting to flee and whether he's a danger to himself or somebody else are the three main factors that every case. Use of force should be judged on.

[Michael]

Are there any Other court cases that use of force has looked at through.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Oh yeah, there's like constantly coming out. But like underneath, like they all kind of resort back to these three factors and then different decisions under different circuits. You have the Supreme Court.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then you have the, the circuit courts and there's a ton of them. Right. And they all have their own. Like people say the 9th Circuit, which is like Nevada, California is more liberal decisions versus whatever. But in the end it could go up to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court could kick it back to the, the circuit courts.

[Michael]

Right.

[Jay Wadsworth]

For decisions.

[Michael]

How does that information get passed out to the officers if there is a change or an update to that?

[Jay Wadsworth]

So that's one going to be dependent on the department. But I would say unless they're doing it on their own, it's probably not. Oh, so like let's take.

[Michael]

For you to get mixed results on that.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. So let's take for instance Felix vs Barnes, which just came down in May. Supreme Court ruled nine nothing on. On Felix Barnes stating that. And then they kicked it back to the circuit court for what they wanted him to judge it on. So Texas case officer jumps on the hood of the car, guy takes off, he ends up shooting there.

[Michael]

I think I've seen this video.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So Felix Barnes basically is going to now put more the. The Supreme Court ruled that they want the courts to look at the totality of the circumstances rather than the point of. Of imminent threat. Like. Right. Like when it happened, what was the threat they want them to look at? So now police induced jeopardy is going to be more at that. Like did he induce this because he jumped on the hood of the guy's car?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right. If he didn't jump on the hood of the guy's car because you drive off and then he's not in danger, right?

[Michael]

Yeah. He's not a hood ornament at that point.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It's got pros and cons for the police and it's got pros and cons for society, realistically. But I'm not opposed to the decision, to be honest. I like totality of the circumstances anyways because I can document from the beginning to when whatever force was used of why I had to use whatever level of force.

[Michael]

Did you find this video, Michael? I'm looking because I feel like this one is.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So this is Felix versus Barnes and that was a Supreme Court one. As that said, you're now ruling from moment of threat. They're going to kick it back to the, the circuit court, but they're going to rule I want you to rule using totality of the circumstances. Right now I'm retired, but as the use of force and combatives instructor, I need to know this stuff. So, like, obviously people are like, oh, you travel country and teach all the time. They don't see the 80 hours a week that I'm spending doing media, answering questions, educating myself.

[Michael]

Yeah, but the fact that you are aware of these things and potentially officers on the street or their administration are not. That is a little concerning.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Well, if you, if you went out into Kalispell and next time you see an officer, ask them where the first.

[Michael]

Amendment is, they're gonna know that one.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Maybe not.

[Michael]

You gotta hit him with like the eighth.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, hit him with the fifth, which I don't know. Hit him with the fifth, Hit him with the fourth.

[Michael]

No, they need to know that. Even I know that. It's freedom of speech. The fifth is the right to not self incriminate. And the fourth has to do with unlawful search and seizure.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Seizure. Yeah. And when we take someone into custody, that is a seizure. Right. We seize them. So, like, understanding that most cops. Not most, but there's a large majority cops, if you ask that question, they don't know.

[Michael]

There's no way.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. There's a guy that goes around the.

[Michael]

Police station is right over here. We're going after this and you're gonna ask them, and I'll sit there and film it. Did you find that video, Michael?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, I'm still looking.

[Michael]

I feel like there's gotta be on here somewhere.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Out of tax in 2016. Okay, I. I think your quote. I mean, I'm. I'm pretty sure it's 2016.

[Michael]

The officer jumps on the hood.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, officer jumps on the hood. 2016 in Texas.

[Michael]

What was the overall situation? Was he trying to. Was this one of the ones where he's trying to bust out in between cop cars and the guy jumps on the hood or.

[Jay Wadsworth]

To be honest, I. I didn't look at the case itself totally in depth yet. I just know that it was in the circuit courts and it was going to have some sort of ruling. It got kicked up to the Supreme Court for what? They wanted to look at the moment of threat. I don't know if this is the one. Is it in Beaumont? Is it Texas? Yeah, I don't remember.

[Michael]

Let's see.

[Jay Wadsworth]

This video is funny anyways, though. Oh, I know.

[Michael]

Oh, God, That's.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's not it. No, that's not it.

[Michael]

But let's discuss. Let's discuss this tactic. Oh, my man's Out.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But this is the thing. When we do vehicle extractions in a patrol setting, we have a principle. Don't reach into the car until the car can't be moved, whether you block it. He wasn't reaching. It's turned off.

[Michael]

He was trying to enter. But here's the problem. My man's out. I don't care what level of retention holster you have. Now, somebody, it doesn't matter, Walk off with your firearm.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yep.

[Michael]

I mean, he cracked his head on Michael. Let's watch that again. Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But this is very common. People jumping on cars. No.

[Michael]

Jumping into a moving convertible.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Listen.

[Michael]

So look at that.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Not maybe in the convertible, but like getting beating up on cars or standing on cars. Like, that's very common. Like, God, he is hard out. Those are just common things that occur again under stress. People don't think and we don't use tactics. Now, have there been times where, like, I'm in a pursuit of a vehicle when I was working and it crashed out or it pulled over and then I ran up to the car? Yes. I did that as a young Jay. Is that the smartest tactic? No. The guy's fleeing for a reason.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Why am I rushing the car? That should be a high risk vehicle stop.

[Michael]

We should be correct.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Exactly. Yeah, but now, have we done that? I've done that before.

[Michael]

Yeah, but have you ever tried to leap into a convertible and.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Negative.

[Michael]

Let's assume. Let's hypothesize here. Michael, go back just a little bit. You can pause. I just want to see the convertible.

[Jay Wadsworth]

What are you going to do if you get in it?

[Michael]

That's going to be my question. Because he was about to enter the back seat because the guy was taken off like. Okay, pause. Let's say whatever. He had had enough momentum to dump himself into that thing. What's your next move? You pull your gun out and tell the guy to pull over. You tase a dude while he's driving.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Well, look up this. Go like San Bernardino, California, 2024. Officer ends up in the backseat of a car during a vehicle extraction.

[Michael]

Stop it.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And he ends up having to shoot the guy because the guy's looking for a gun and driving erratically. W.

[Michael]

That guy 100 had a concussion after that. That was full back ahead to concrete. That sucks.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I think it's San Bernardino.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm still looking here. Well, Michael's finding that we were talking earlier about how when you roll with Gordon, you just trash him. Is he aware that you talk about him like that? That you just dominate him in Every position, I'm sure.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And you know, like, I didn't even know him until 2022. And I ended up doing executive protection for.

[Michael]

Why does he need executive protection?

[Jay Wadsworth]

So in ADCC 2022, he was threatened by the Brazilians because him and the Galvao had the thing and you would. You're not worried about the rest.

[Michael]

Oil up and get after it.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're not worried about the rest of the competitors. Right? Like, they're just. If they do anything, they're getting kicked out for life and it's adcc, right? Like, they're not going to. It was the fans. And then there was a, like, Las Vegas Open earlier in the week. And yeah, there was like. So the Brazilians had basically threatened like the fans that they were stab, stab him. So it doesn't matter how good a fighter you are. Like, if someone stabs you, stab you. ADCC actually hired him protection. And so I ended up jumping on that gig and getting it and then through, like, channels of like, becoming friends with him. I did it for him for 2024 and he got his truck stolen at one point. Do you remember that?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So I went to Texas for two years of my police career, you know, followed a girl down there or whatever. So a relationship that I had made with another female, like, it just as friends, but that was in the academy is a sergeant for the Cedar, Cedar Park Street Crimes or Violent Task Force. And she saw him post that on his page. And she calls me and she's like, aren't you friends with this guy? And I'm like, yeah. And she's like, I know who took his truck. She's like, I've just recovered two of them already, this model and who's doing.

[Michael]

The case, wasn't it?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So anyways, long story short, like, I called him, he tells me who got it. I get her in contact with him. I'm in the Phoenix airport because I'm flying the red eye overnight, basically. By time I got back to my house, her and her team, because she was on a, like, task force with like, DPS and stuff. They used a helicopter and imaging and they had his car back to him by the next afternoon.

[Michael]

Was it. Was it a group of people targeting just that model?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. So it was a group of young, like, I think gang kids from, from like the city of Austin that were targeting it. But she knew the group. Like, she'd been working this for a while and so she reached out to me and that's actually how that, like, that happened. It's pretty Crazy.

[Michael]

Don't try to avoid the fact that you were saying in open company that you whip his ass.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Oh, my God. I'll tell you, like, you take people at that level.

[Michael]

Oh, I know.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And they don't even have to try to whip your ass. Like, you just know that they're friendly.

[Michael]

Yeah. Thankfully.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Thankfully. Yeah. Like, more than him, I become closer with Giancarlo.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I sponsored him for ADCC 24. Okay. And I talked to him occasionally, and I've rolled with John Carlin. Like, it's just different. Like, I roll with Taza Roka. Like, there's levels to these things. Like, I can't. Like, I'm a pretty decent jiu jitsu practitioner. Like, I'm 47 and I work a full time job, but, like, I can hold my own. Usually against most people. Guys at that level. Yeah.

[Michael]

It's like you're. It's like you're creating a language out of a different Alphabet. It doesn't make sense.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, it doesn't. That whole group is. Is crazy. I have a guy that, that teaches for me, Matt Secor, and he's like Masters one, Nogi Nogi Pan and world champion 2024. And rolling with him, like, I look at myself in the mirror every day and be like, I. I can't do any. Like, I'm a pretty, like, decent black belt and like, he could do whatever he wants with me whenever.

[Michael]

The Masters one is now, what, like 19 years old?

[Jay Wadsworth]

30 to 35, I think it's like the youngest masters.

[Michael]

It's one of the sports where you're like, yeah, you're not in your 20s yet. You guys just. That you go to the old people.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

Which honestly, given how hard and how good those guys, how hard they go and how good they are, it's like, maybe I will go to the old guys.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I was actually taxing back and forth with Gordon not too long ago when we were, like, looking to jump on a podcast that had, like, some good steam because we were, like, both dumbfounded about the rear naked choke or the vascular neck restraint and police work.

[Michael]

Dumbfounded about what aspect? That it works so well.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, that there are places. This one. The city of New York. So not the state of New York, but New York City. Okay, okay. Colorado. And I think that's what the State Patrol, Denver, Colorado Springs are all under the way. They have the law written that vascular neck restraints are prohibited in all levels of force, including deadly. So. So this is crazy. So what you're saying is I have you. I have you Back mounted. I'm fighting inside control and you start to reach for a weapon and I can't choke you. I can't. If I did and I'm getting charged even in. But I could shoot you in the head and it's okay. How.

[Michael]

That doesn't make sense.

[Jay Wadsworth]

It doesn't. But how insane is it now? You would never be found guilty in the Supreme Court system, but you actually are violating state law in Colorado if you did that. Okay. Unless they've changed it since I've had these conversations when I was out there earlier this spring. Okay. And this is coming from like people high up in like the state police and in like Colorado Springs in Denver in their training divisions. This is, this is what they're telling me. Okay. And then New York City, I did a private training for their instructors and they're all solid, but they don't get like to get anything changed. But they, they 100 told me that you cannot choke. Even in Delhi for divorce it is prohibited.

[Michael]

How did that get written into law?

[Jay Wadsworth]

So knee jerk reaction to 2020 George Floyd. How crazy is that?

[Michael]

I mean, for one, that wasn't a rear naked choke.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. That was a knee on the back of the neck. That's different. But that's where this came into this. This is where this came into law was these reactions, even knee on the.

[Michael]

Back of the neck, vascular restraint. Sure, yeah, that's wild.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But that's, that's what those say is you can't use a choke and deadly physical force. Now most, most states and departments have banned the use of choking a suspect if it's not deadly physical force. But in deadly physical force, it's basically like I can run you over with a car and it's okay. We don't train to run people over a car. But I can. Yeah, but you're saying I can't choke someone deadly for their force. That's insane. But this is what knee jerk reaction. Political decisions have handcuffed policing now. Can you imagine if society knew I have a guy pinned to the ground and he's fighting you to get to a gun and I could choke him and end this situation and the overwhelming majority of time save his life.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But I can't do that. So I have to shoot him because I'm in the used force to shoot him. Can you imagine if they knew that.

[Michael]

What I would want to do and this would never work because they'd never agree to do this is you put the lawmakers into that position and you present them with that exact choice Trading scenario.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're right.

[Michael]

To try to force them to make those. It's the same as what you see people who are so vehemently anti police.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And every once in a while you get one that agrees to go to a use of force simulator and they leave there with a drastically. At least from what I have seen, a drastically different understanding of the limited amount of information and time you have to make choices.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're right. Yeah.

[Michael]

You know, police should never shoot anybody. You get them in there and they.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Are just make terrible decisions.

[Michael]

Winchester on. They're just reloading Max.

[Jay Wadsworth]

There's quite a few of those out there where they take like the. The group's like leader and be like hey, come. And they put them through like a reality based training scenario.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And they fail miserably. Usually they shoot people that are unarmed 100%.

[Michael]

Yeah. They're just smoke wagon left, right and center. But it. And that's what you would need to.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Do for the people that write those laws.

[Michael]

They would never agree to do it because they're not going to want to be the person in that situation. But yeah. I mean I look at it from the perspective of my young children. If one of them was having their worst day and they were shit faced and whatever they're mouthing off to a cop, it ends up going physical. They're in a position where the cop has to make that choice. What do I want to have happen happen? Just choke my son unconscious.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, you're right.

[Michael]

That's what I would want.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Sure. People are under the impression that choking someone kills them. Most of the time there would be.

[Michael]

Nobody left participating in Jiu jitsu.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's the thing though. A lot of these zero people would do. When I say uneducated decisions, I'm not saying the people making them are uneducated. I'm saying that people making the decisions are uneducated in the aspect of what choking a human being actually does.

[Michael]

Does.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. Because they. I'm sure they're educated in some fashion. Most of them. Okay. They're making a decision on something they're uneducated in. And that's the problem. That's just what's happening.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's right.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But look at police officers. A jury of your peers is supposed to be people of like, you know, same experiences. Whatever. Police officers are getting jury of your leftovers every time. You're not getting one cop in that jury.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You know, so like you got to understand that like articulation is huge. Use of force is huge. It's not just so easy like, oh, just gonna blast this dude in the face. Okay, maybe, but at, at what cost? Or like, hey, I could punch this guy, but maybe this guy. I can't. He's just actively resisting. Am I gonna punch him in the face 20 times over and over again when he's not really, like, fighting me or actively aggressive? Are there other options I can go to? So, like, again, the police model of training is broken. And, and that's all sorts of training that's even like staying up to date on current case laws and whatever circuit court your departments are in or the Supreme Court decisions. Right. Like, I try to do that because I do a lot of expert witness stuff for custody and control and tactics. So I have to. Once I quit doing that, then I probably shouldn't be a subject matter expert. I probably shouldn't be teaching people anymore.

[Michael]

What's it like being cross examined by the, the prosecutor or the defense, depending on which side you're on? Are they just looking for ways to. Do they challenge your position of knowledge or are they just trying to look for a chink in what it is that you're saying?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Some of both. You can't, you. And you shouldn't do this in the job either. You can't take it personal because they're gonna.

[Michael]

Yeah, they're doing their job.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They're gonna try to make it personal. Right.

[Michael]

Jeffrey Dahmer had a lawyer too.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You. Yeah, you're right.

[Michael]

And I don't think he enjoyed eating people's faces.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No. You know, so like, understanding, like criminal testimony is different than civil testimony. Yeah, more stuff's in, in civil testimony, like, they get, they can ask you more. Your, your attorney has very little, like, ability to object, and then you stop to answer the question, those types of things. But there was an attorney that I worked for in the city of Syracuse area, and he was extremely knowledgeable, and I testified for him a couple times. And I probably learned more testifying to be prepared for court with him than anybody else. And what I mean by that is like, we sat down and prepared for the trial, or it wasn't even a trial yet. It was just the deposition on the record. So it's going to be like, me, the judge, the two attorneys, basically. And he said, when you're testifying, you need to take three things in consideration when you're being cross examined. When the attorney cross examines you and he asks you a question, you need to demand direct questions. Okay, Demand direct questions. And if you can't demand the direct question, then you have to pause before you give your answer. And you have to give direct answers. I never learned this in the academy. I never learned this in any, like, court preparation for anywhere. And what he meant by that is, is if I ask you, I say your name's. Your name is Andy Stump, right?

[Michael]

Yes.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That would be not giving me a direct answer. That would be you playing into my hands. How? Because I asked you something that was true.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So you just agreed with me.

[Michael]

Yeah, because it's true.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So I'm going to do that like 9, 10, 11 times, and then I'm going to give you something that's 95% true and 5% damaging.

[Michael]

How are you supposed to answer that question?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Then you'll say yes or correct or whatever they are, and then now you've just damaged your whole testimony. So this is a cycle that they try to put you in.

[Michael]

Well, how do you answer the question about your name?

[Jay Wadsworth]

You were in the military, Correct?

[Michael]

Correct.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So instead of saying correct or yes, answering what I want, the direct answer would be, my name is J. Wadsworth. So if you ask me what my name is, ask me what name is, or say, say your name is Jay Wadsworth. Correct.

[Michael]

Your name is J. Wadsworth. Correct.

[Jay Wadsworth]

My name is Jay Wadsworth. I give the direct answer. Because if you don't give the direct answer, they're going to catch you in something that's 95 true and 5% false or damaging, and then that's. Then they're going to crush your testimony.

[Michael]

Jesus.

[Jay Wadsworth]

From there. Okay, so like you said, you worked for the city of Jamestown Police Department. I don't say yes, you say, I work. I was a police officer for the city of Jamestown Police Department.

[Michael]

How does the attorney asking you those questions, how do they respond when you start? They don't like it because they know the gig's up.

[Jay Wadsworth]

They know the gig's up. But I had a guy ask me the same question 26 times, and I gave the direct answer 26 times.

[Michael]

26 times.

[Jay Wadsworth]

26 times.

[Michael]

He didn't have it after the 25th.

[Jay Wadsworth]

With, yeah, they're just trying to catch you. They're trying to wear you out. It's like. And then when you're doing, like, an endurance event, essentially, or like, you're interviewing people, like, time is tough for everybody. Like, you're in interview room, and, like, you did or you didn't do it, but we're trying to get it out of you. You leave people in these rooms, and the thoughts are happening and thinking things like, you're just trying to. That time is on your side. Right. Like, they want to wear you down. Think of it in jiu jitsu or on our feet wrestling. I'm hanging on your head. Head.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I'm wearing your neck down.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

The endurance is. Is an issue. Right. So endurance in there as well. Like, maybe on 24, my endurance was still good. And I gave the direct answer on 26 times my endurance retired. And I just said yes.

[Michael]

Can you see it, though, in that first direct answer that you give? Can you see them just in their.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Head, like, for sure. And I never. I didn't listen. I didn't know this for 16 years of my career.

[Michael]

Year.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I didn't know that. No one taught me that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

16 years before someone taught me that.

[Michael]

I could see that really unwinding their strategy.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No defense. No. No. D. A ever told me that when I was working and I was testifying for the prosecution. No DA AG Federal prosecutors are Ever told me that.

[Michael]

Huh.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Trial preparation is very, very weak when it's working with police and DA for the most part. I'm not saying there aren't some that are probably good at their jobs and do it, but what I knew for my career, it's like, hey, they got five. Five cases on grand jury today. Or you're up next for the jury trial. Like, in and out. Right. No preparation. I did a day and a half of preparation for a deposition with this guy.

[Michael]

I could see what you're saying. The yes, no, true, correct. I could see them marching you towards that. That spot.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's what they do.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So that is probably the best thing I ever learned as far as courtroom prepper testimony was demand the direct question, which you can't really do because I can't look at the attorney and be like, hey, can you ask it another way? So if you're not getting a direct question, then pause. You need to pause. Don't rush out your answer. Pause. Give a direct answer, though. That's steps three. One, two, three. Demand a direct question. If you don't get it, Pause.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Give the direct answer.

[Michael]

Now, I want to go to court and do that to some attorney. I'm not an expert in anything, but if somebody needs me as an expert witness, I will give direct answers. Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So.

[Michael]

Oh, yes.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So I end up finding both of them, actually. Okay.

[Michael]

This is what happens when you get.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Oh, yeah, here's Felix on the beltway. Yeah.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So, Barnes, Felix. That's where you get it from, right? The two last names of the participating parties.

[Michael]

Oh, wow.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So see how he jumps up into the door frame here?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then.

[Michael]

Has he already shot him? Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So again, officer induced jeopardy is going to be more at the forefront. Did you.

[Michael]

I don't know what other choice he had. I mean, I. Not that he'd be get drug under the car, but he was. The door pushed him closer. See how it kind of wedged him in there?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. Because he reached in and grabbed either the guy or the door man.

[Michael]

If he would have tried to get off of that. Yeah. Not that he had two great options there, but the door swinging shut didn't help anything.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And now they didn't. They didn't rule on if he's guilty or not guilty here or if there's going to be financial payment to the family. They're just saying they want them to look at this. Not at the moment. He's on the car and shooting him of the totality. So that's now. And that was a 9 nothing vote by the Supreme Court. That wasn't even close. That's nine nothing. So totality of circumstances is a new way going forward of judging uses of force, not moment of threat.

[Michael]

Let's see the other one. Michael, good job on finding of these, by the way.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, I had to go to Reddit for this one.

[Michael]

Reddit is a. It's a dangerous place.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, it is. I should have probably just Instagram page trapped in.

[Michael]

Oh, he's been the behind. Okay. This is the guy in the back seat.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So this is again, I use this video and this is a current video. I use this video all the time when I'm teaching vehicle directions. So go back a little bit. Yeah, he's already in the car.

[Michael]

Why is he.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So this kind of jumps around a bit.

[Michael]

So we have to go still out of battery all the way over here. That.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I don't know.

[Michael]

I noticed that.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, yeah. So he's reaching here. Female officer on the driver's side, passenger side. So now they're, they're gonna.

[Michael]

So pistol is in battery here.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. So must be when he got thrown in. I'm assuming we got thrown in. Maybe it. The, the slide got taken out of battery. But. So now he reaches in.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And again, here's the thing of like, let's not reach into moving cars unless it's immobilized. We can't. The cars cannot get mobile. So he goes to go for the gear shift. This guy reaches in, pulls it back in. But now look, they're right across from each other. So if they have to get into Shooting here. It's crossfire issue two. This guy hammers down on the gas. In a minute.

[Michael]

He thought he put it in park. He put it in neutral. Keys aren't coming out in neutral.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And obviously an older vehicle.

[Michael]

Yeah. And this is tough, right? I mean, these officers are thoroughly committed at this point.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. Now the female opens the door, but she's on this side. Look how far in the guy on the driver or the passenger side had to get.

[Michael]

Yeah, he's in the car.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He's in the car. So now if it takes off, you're stuck. He actually got stuck in this car here.

[Michael]

Here we go.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Then he's in the back seat now. Yeah. So now he's in the back. The guy drove off and kind of.

[Michael]

Launched him into the back.

[Jay Wadsworth]

The female stepped back away from the car.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And it threw him into the back seat. So now he's behind him. He's driving erratically. Starts reaching for what he. The guy sees as a pistol. So he ends up having to shoot him.

[Michael]

Yeah, like right there. His pistol's out of battery. Yeah, there you go. He's trying to correct it.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, it's still out of battery.

[Michael]

Did he already shoot him? I think so.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I wonder if he made.

[Michael]

I wonder if he had a piece of brass.

[Jay Wadsworth]

A failure to eject my stove popper.

[Michael]

Yeah, dude, you gotta drop.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So now he does a good job because he.

[Michael]

Yeah, he had already shot the guy.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Because he gets the steering wheel and then he ends up getting his foot to the brake and, like, using the curb to slow himself down. But, like, that's what happens. These videos are. People are like, this would never happen. And I'm like, no, no. I have multiple body cam videos of just 22, 23, and 24 of multiple issues like this that occur with patrol settings and vehicle extractions or vehicle taxes, of reaching into cars or trying to pull guys out. Pulling the guy out of the car is the easy part. It's when it goes bad is the. The awful part. And if you're on the passenger side and you have to reach into the driver, you're in the car.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

You're already in the car.

[Michael]

That's a tough ask.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So, yeah, that's. That's the. That one. Wow.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And what was the date on that? That's. Yeah. November of 2024. So that was not even a year ago.

[Michael]

Wow. Has that one already been cleared? Justifies use of forces. That's still being adjudicated.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So they've cleared him. Yeah, but of course, like, there could be some Civil implementation, totally different story. That's a whole different side. And I don't know how far along it is, but they released a body camera that while back.

[Michael]

Did he end up having a weapon on him?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, it was a gun in his waistband. Yep. Man, they're kind of crazy. But this, this is the things people don't understand. Like, hey, we can train to like just pull a guy out of the car. We can just go do vehicle extractions. That's the easy part. If I got two guys to get a guy out of the car, it's not that difficult. Right. The hard part is, is when it goes bad. Now what do we do? How many people are training, moving together, moving to path of least resistance. Why the door is open. Who's going to move to the front? Unless you're training it all the time. Path resistance is probably to the rear. Right.

[Michael]

I just. If the stats are there, any organization that views. That values the statistics.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Or values risk mitigation would look at these things and say these are the areas where we are having absorbing the highest level of risk. We're having the officer or the contact related outcome. Where it is the most risk, it is the most visible, it is the most public. You would work on that until you were able to reduce that and identify it until something else popped up most statistically. And then you could work on that. You know, I mean that's how a metric. It's not like the metrics don't exist.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, they're there. I did a short clip on a video today about data. Like the best data we have is body cam video now.

[Michael]

Yeah. I was going to be this dossier of information that incriminated police. Most of the time what ends up happening is you see people acting like, yeah, you're right.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And like I use it in multiple different ways. I'll use it to be like, okay, here's a trend. Three or more things happening in a year that yeah, like occurring. We can provide a better solution. Or we have to pay attention to suspects doing this. Or this position is coming up a lot. How do we better that? Now you can take a set of data and match it to those and be like, hey, the data is matching these videos. Okay, let's. How do we reverse engineer what we're training to now? And so I do that a lot with like building out curriculum.

[Michael]

Yeah, that makes sense. We should discuss that. Adam isn't here because I've been thinking about this since you told me he hurt his back submitting somebody.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He did. He so He. He blew out his back, supposedly.

[Michael]

I still can't think of a submission.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Is submitting somebody which is broad, and.

[Michael]

I just can't think of a submission that would require so much effort that one would blow out their back. And I'm not saying he's a liar. I just think he might not be telling the truth.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Maybe he was getting submitted. Well, he get. He admits getting submitted all the time, though.

[Michael]

That's fine. It happens to us all. But I'm just curious. How did he throw us back out?

[Jay Wadsworth]

He says I. We. I'll have to ask him. We're gonna have to ask Adam what position and submission he was giving, because.

[Michael]

I would like to avoid it. Apparently, it's dangerous.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. Now, I mean, the only thing I can think of is a triangle getting stacked. Maybe.

[Michael]

I don't know.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I don't know. It's pretty interesting.

[Michael]

Unlock the triangle, let him pass.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then he's like. He's like, you know, I, I, I did this, and I'm in bed. But he was like, maybe it's meant to be because we just released the police post app. And so he's like, maybe it's meant to be because then I'm here to answer any questions that, like, JT has during the release or whatever.

[Michael]

Was he aware of the plan you were putting together that you had texted me about?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No.

[Michael]

See what? A missed opportunity.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I know. Which you're right.

[Michael]

I will not say what the plan is, even though hopefully by the time this come out, comes out, that plan has come to fruition. But if not, missed opportunity.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Missed opportunity. I told him I had something for him next time I saw him. Yeah, that's what I ended up.

[Michael]

He should be able to figure that out.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So we'll see. Maybe. Maybe not.

[Michael]

Maybe could be.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. Because it could be multiple.

[Michael]

Maybe it was fear. That's why he didn't show up. It's like, I don't know what that is. Or maybe I do know what it is. And I don't want any of that smoke.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I. I kind of like that. I kind of like that version of it.

[Michael]

I do too. It's the most offensive defensive to him.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay. Will and I were talking today. He loves that judo floor you got in the.

[Michael]

The spring floor is amazing. Even if you are gonna roll and not even start on your feet, just rolling in, it just takes it so much stress off the joints. And it. There is a aspect of older people in life, be real careful how you learn takedowns and where you learn takedowns that Judo floor does not make it injury free. But people will stand up a little bit more willingly because the consequences seem to be less so.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That was one of the reasons why New Wave pro training was at ROKA for so long.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Because they were utilizing Henzo Austin for like, like open enrollment training. But pro training was at Roka because that does have the spring loaded. And now obviously New Wave has become Kingsway.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Which is like Gordon's Gym. And that is all spring loaded floor.

[Michael]

What was the gym we trained out there? It was Grace. No. Great. Was it Gracie Cedar Park.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Oh, yeah. You went to Gracie, who made a Cedar Park. That's so.

[Michael]

No, it wasn't Tim's gym. It was Sanjay Ribeiro's gym.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Oh, okay. Yeah. Because six blades is there too.

[Michael]

Six blades.

[Jay Wadsworth]

That's what it is.

[Michael]

Yeah. Spring floor as well.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay.

[Michael]

Yeah. Actually it was one of those trips there. Of course I get invited to judo classes. I don't do judo, by the way. I was really thankful that they had that spring floor there. As somebody who was flying through the air and when I landed, I'm like, that's. This is the last time I walk.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay.

[Michael]

And then you're like, oh, I'm gonna be okay.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. Yeah. Because Gracie Cedar park is. Giancarlo teaches out of there, but he's open his own place as well. Big Dan, that jiu jitsu giant guy, he actually bought into. I think it's Helf Gracie. And just north of Austin, he bought into that gym there. I actually did a private with him when I was at Said ttpoa.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Is a big dude.

[Michael]

Yeah. I don't actually think we didn't.

[Jay Wadsworth]

We didn't roll live that, that practice because it wouldn't, wouldn't really have mattered. I mean, I'm the size of his legs. But he did bully me into cold plunging.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then sauna, then cold plunging. He bulled me into cold plunging.

[Michael]

I had the. It'll come out this Friday. The guy who started the company plunge. Oh, they do saunas and cold plunging. Ask me why I don't like it and said, I've had enough fun in the cold water. I'd literally rather have a 300 pound Samoan river dance on my ball sack wearing stiletto high heels than cold plunge. But apparently it's good for you.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I'm not a huge fan of cold plunging. If I do, it's going to be in the morning. And like I said, I'm a huge like sauna or hot tub guy after training because it makes My body feel better?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But yeah, Dan, Dan bullied me into going into the cold plunge.

[Michael]

Will is almost at the size where I don't think you should, should actually be allowed to teach him jiu jitsu.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So he's bullying me because it's driving him up.

[Michael]

He's just like, you're like, I am a child next to you, you know, And I'm bigger than most people. How many people can make me feel that?

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right? Yeah. We trained together at Cape Coral. Black tie, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's called on Cape Coral. Corey Brown owns it. He's a nogi. Multiply time. Nogi pans Masters, gold medalist, second place in worlds, what, two years ago. Phenomenal practitioner. You know, really, really slick. Good, nicest guy in the world. But it folds you up like a box. Like, and, but every. There's a ton of killers in that gym. Like, there's, there's a couple guys that are maybe not quite Will size, but like Alejandro, like, Corey just gave him his brown belt. I'm like, thank God you gave him his brown belt because this is embarrassing rolling with him when he's got.

[Michael]

Just kick him out. Like, if you're over. If you're like 63280. Yeah, no, leave. Here's your money back. And if they say why, it's because you're not built for this.

[Jay Wadsworth]

My. So I hired two full time instructors. I hired a full time lead guy and a assistant director. My full time lead instructor. His name is Matt. He was collegiate level all American. He's a black belt. He won masters one, purple and brown belt world champion. He's what, 235? He's a six time semifinalist in CrossFit Games.

[Michael]

No, that's unacceptable.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And he's, he's a physical specimen. So he did the Nashville Open two weekends ago because we had a course in Nashville and he was teaching it. And so he does ghee. I didn't hear from him on Saturday and then on Sunday he sent me pictures of like, he double golden. I just expected him to because he's freaking savage. He did a doll. He didn't do Masters. He did.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And then he sends me a picture and a video of him in ghee. And so it was like a guy that was like probably 6, 4, 6, 6, 2, 265, 2 7.

[Michael]

He was in the big boy division with no top.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes.

[Michael]

Like, are you £800? Come on, you're in this division.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yes. With Guillon. He goes and he, he'd never been submitted in like jiu jitsu competition. But he obviously got a significant wrestling background, of course, and lots of attributes. Whatever. He goes, I've never been manhandled like I did yesterday in ghee. And this guy's a black belt and a judo and black belt. And his, his foot like off balancing trip. He was just rag down he goes, he rag dolled me.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

He goes, and he submitted me and I go, how's it feel?

[Michael]

Yeah, welcome to the rest of us.

[Jay Wadsworth]

But I think it's going to be great for him because one and another black belt came on Marcos, who's a 18 time Masters World champion of some sort. He's phenomenal out of Sacramento. He goes, yeah, but you got up and double golden the next day. He goes, you're going to learn more from that than you're not. Right. So it was good for him.

[Michael]

I think the move for that guy, honestly, is to put the nogi away for a bit and just dive into the, the ghee world.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, I, I, I think he trains ghee. I just don't think he's ever trained against someone that much bigger. And where are you going to go.

[Michael]

Try to find somebody who's the size of a giant. Be like, hey, oh, you haven't trained for 20 years. Never mind, you're no use to me. Like that's any, well, not anybody can be big, but big people are big. You pair that with them, know what they're doing. I'm sorry. Like people, people want life to be fair. The fair is in northern Iowa with cotton candy and a merry go round.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Man, you're right, you're right.

[Michael]

Right, it's, yeah. If you come across like big, what's his name? Big John. Yeah, yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, Big Dan.

[Michael]

Yeah, Big Dan. Sorry, you lost. If, yeah, you need, you know, you need to do get on a diet and come into one weight class below.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And he's over 300. Like he's over 300. But like he's great. Like I met him when he was a blue belt and he was amazing. Yeah, right. Like he's a brown belt now. Like, that's why like you can only put so much weight in certain belts because there's different levels to different belts. Right. And different levels to people within those belt belts. Like your professional guys that are high level purple belts probably beat the average or most black belts that are hobbyists.

[Michael]

A purple belt competitor will beat most black belts that are hobbyists.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Exactly. People just, yeah. And that's how it is and people don't understand it. And like you know, being able to be around, like, guys of high level from all different skill levels. And high level, they're your top five guys. Compared to like the next 15, that's another level. Yeah, like, those, like, don't get me wrong, six to 20, those guys are studs. Like, if I grapple with them, they get. They're getting the best of me and beating me. But those top five guys, unbelievable. Like, and they just, they're just different. It's just. It's insane.

[Michael]

Just hit them with your car in the parking lot.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, like, them get really good at avoiding the fight.

[Michael]

Diet down to a weight class they're not in. Just cigarettes and monster. Just like, I gotta lose 30 pounds.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Let the scale take it.

[Michael]

Yeah, just let the scale do it. And then like, you're gonna have to skip the absolute.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. I trained with Tazzle. I trained with Tazzle one time at Roko. And like, that dude is just phenomenal. Like, again, there's levels to things, right? Like, I wanted to, like, give him a match. Like, I wanted to like it. It's a seven minute training round. Or six minute, maybe it wasn't even time because. Oh, actually John wasn't there. John Carlo was running the training, so there probably was time. But like, John doesn't use a clock.

[Michael]

Oh, really?

[Jay Wadsworth]

No, he doesn't believe in a clock.

[Michael]

So, like, of course he doesn't. He also doesn't believe in clothing outside of Rashka.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right. So. But like, I roll with Taza and just at the end of that round, I just was like thinking to myself, like, you can't hold this guy down. And he's just phenomenal as transitions and just like, I'm just like, there's levels to this. I roll with really good guys. And like, then there's just guys that make you feel like you. You feel like a white belt.

[Michael]

Yeah. That's a good thing, though. I think that for me, that, that reinvigorates me to know what's possible.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah, it's.

[Michael]

I mean, at the end of the day, like, maybe just don't take life so seriously.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. You know, well, especially at 47, I'm not trying to be an ADC champion or a world champion in adult division.

[Michael]

But I was just looking.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I still like rolling with those guys.

[Michael]

Yeah. Oh, no, I do too. I. You know, anytime people feel bad about their performance against somebody else, I just say. And I say this to myself too. Yeah. But look in the rear view mirror of your own progression. What really matters is you from 12 months ago. How would that go. And the answer is going to be you're going to kick your own ass.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Cool. You're doing fine.

[Jay Wadsworth]

I know. So yeah, it's awesome.

[Michael]

What else, man? Where can people find you?

[Jay Wadsworth]

So efcombatives.com is the website. Our Instagram handle is ef combatives and our YouTube is ef combatives. And please post on Instagram and YouTube now.

[Michael]

And we have an app for that at some point.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And my personal one's WADS bgj. And you know, we're really level one's running itself now that is like our level one is like your basic combatives program. And our level two is like building out a reality based training, structured, really based training program for your department or you. And it has a lot more resistance in it. Different pace, but you're running. And we in that because we only have limited time, we stick primary to the box drills and then say hey, this is how you could build them out into scenarios after. And then Scott and I are just finishing wrapping up. We're doing a three or four day SWAT course and it's going to be different. So right now on our cadre, I have two full time instructors plus me, we have about 30 to 35 adjuncts. We have probably five or six full time SWAT guys that are black belts as part of that cadre, not counting Scott and I. So talking we're like, yeah, all the SWAT course and there's plenty of guys in the CQB world, there's plenty of guys in the shooting world. Let's stick with what we're really, really good at. But all the SWAT courses that we go to and all CB courses we go to don't hit enough on like the combatives aspect of it. And in civilian SWAT, again, the overwhelming majority of how incidents are handled, whether it's dynamic, clearing, slow, deliberate breach and call out, whatever surrounding call out, are all some sort of hands on. We're going hands on to take people into custody. And that's where we're having our uses of force. So you know the weapon manipulation in those things. And so of course we're gonna have to have them doing entrances to put them into these situations. But we're not going to say like, hey Andy, your team likes to dump in and not split the threshold and you guys are going to crisscross, bun or crossbone hook or whatever. These guys like to split the threshold and known unknown, whatever you guys do, what you do as a team. Yeah, as long as you're not violating, dominating your points of Domination principles. We're not going to say anything now. If someone comes through and it's all jacked up, we can't just be like okay run this 10 more times to get to this situation. But you're making these bad habits on the way in. Then we'll have to correct them. But we're not going to correct them to like say this is the way of structure clearance clearing. You know, you structure clear the way your team structure clears. And so we're going to concentrate more on that combatives environment and then we're going to use some utms to kind of do more 360 moving and shooting.

[Michael]

That's good.

[Jay Wadsworth]

So that they can really work on their Ling and 102 and mitigating crossfire. Because again SWAT is like Jiu jitsu. There's levels.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

And full time teams have a huge advantage. They're training and doing ops all the time. Part time teams because they have the swapped title. They might only get one day of training a month. They might only do 15 ops a year. Some of these teams that come to the conference but if it's a hostage rescue time they're going to be held at the standard of a SWAT team. It's not going to say part time SWAT team screws it up up it's going to say SWAT team. So they're held down at a higher. These part time guys got to bring themselves up to a higher standard because they're going to be held there anyways.

[Michael]

Yeah. It's what it is here locally. It's a part time team or an ancillary duty.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yep.

[Michael]

Yeah. And for smaller departments, I mean that's what you're going to get.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah. So you know we're going to try to not reinvent the wheel on what people are already doing. There's plenty of good groups that are handling those lanes. We're going to kind of go like hey, this is what we've been seeing and what we are encountered in our careers and guys that are currently working their careers now and be like let's, let's close the gap on where we see the gaps of SWAT training and combatives is. And combatives in SWAT team is different than competitives in like patrol or solo setting. If you're by yourself in a SWAT incident, someone up.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Right. Like somebody screwed up. Unless it's an act of violence and.

[Michael]

You showed up first or you run thin.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Or you run thin.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Jay Wadsworth]

For the most part it's going to be a team setting type structure. Right. So that's kind of what we're going to concentrate on and that's going to hopefully launch in 2026.

[Michael]

Sweet.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So right on. Well, until next time.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Okay, cool. Awesome.

[Michael]

All right, homie.

[Jay Wadsworth]

Thanks, man. Yep, marketing is hard. But I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.