Podcast Summary: Cleared Hot — Episode 407

Guest: Jay Wadsworth
Title: Effective Policing Through Enhanced Training
Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Andy Stumpf

Overview

This episode centers on the critical need for enhanced, ongoing training in law enforcement, specifically focusing on the realities of hands-on control, grappling, and scenario-based tactics for officers. Andy Stumpf and guest Jay Wadsworth (recently retired LEO, combatives instructor) dig deeply into why current police training often fails to prepare officers for real-world encounters, the consequences of insufficient training, and how a progressive approach—emphasizing fitness, grappling fundamentals, and scenario work—can prevent unnecessary harm to both officers and the public. Using real-world examples, body cam breakdowns, legal updates, and personal experiences, Andy and Jay highlight the vital path forward for more effective and safer policing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Issues with Police Sidearms and Equipment

• SIG Sauer 320 Problems
  • Opening discussion covers recent viral videos of the SIG 320 firing without the trigger being pulled and the manufacturer’s denials. Specific incidents where officers were injured are referenced.
    • “Under no circumstances will a SIG fire without the trigger fully depressed...” (04:16 Jay Wadsworth)
    • “That didn’t age well.” (04:16 Jay Wadsworth)
  • The group discusses the challenges for agencies who now must decide what to do with existing inventories—re-engineering, buybacks, or upper assembly swaps.
  • The importance of issue selection based on reliability and user fit is underscored.
• The Challenge of Carrying with an Empty Chamber
  • Contrast between Israeli method (drawing and racking) and the need for readiness in US policing.
    • “When you need it to go bang, it needs to go bang.” (10:20 Jay Wadsworth)

Real-Life Case Studies and Footage Breakdowns

• NYC AR Incident and Concealed Carry Discussion
  • The episode explores a recent incident where a man walked openly with what looked like an AR platform in NYC, the public’s lack of reaction, and confusion over carry laws.
    • [12:00-14:00]
• Walmart Knife Incident
  • Analysis of a civilian intervening to stop a stabbing with a suboptimal grip/technique, but still successfully de-escalating.
    • “He got the job done… for those of you who value the skin on your non-dominant hand, maybe rotate that a little more forward…” (14:28 Michael)
  • Discussion on public willingness—to intervene or not—and how stop-rates differ based on environment and skill.
    • “We need more people that are trained or ready to step up in these situations. That's what we need in society.” (17:41 Jay Wadsworth)
• Active Resistor & Hands-On Control
  • Jay explains that statistically, the overwhelming majority of police force events begin as hands-on, not as shootings or Taser deployments.
    • “Raise your hand if you’ve shot more than five people—nobody's raised their hand yet… raise your hand if you've gone hands-on…everyone raises their hand.” (52:09 Jay Wadsworth)

The Crisis of Police Training Standards

• Inconsistency & Lack of National Standard
  • No consistent or mandatory national training protocol for police fitness or combatives past the academy.
    • “I don't know one place that has a mandatory PT test on a yearly basis for a police department. I don't know one.” (28:13 Jay Wadsworth)
  • Most cops stop formal fitness training post-academy, with troubling fitness incentives (optional, not baseline).
• Low Frequency of Reality-Based and Grappling Training
  • Discussion of why hands-on, control, and grappling fundamentals must be prioritized—especially for dealing with active resistance, where the majority of injuries and escalation occur.
• Challenges in Funding and Time
  • Departments cite cost and time as barriers, though lawsuits and injuries ultimately cost more.
    • “It's going to cost more… it's going to have a cost regardless. Why wouldn't you invest in them early?” (26:29 Jay Wadsworth)
  • Pressure from unions, organizational inertia, and lack of legislative mandates reinforce the status quo.
• Cultural Problems and Responsibility
  • A culture of complacency, sometimes encouraged by injury payouts, further impedes standards.

Reality-Based Scenario and Pressure Testing

• Why Scenario Drills Matter
  • “Box drills” and “hooded-box drills” force snap decision-making and exposure to dynamic, unpredictable violence.
    • “You have to pressure them right away. If you don't pressure them right away, they're not going to process, they're going to get nervous. And we know from zero to seven feet is where shootings occur.” (68:28 Jay Wadsworth)
  • Realities on the street rarely fit the “silos” of training—shooting, ground control, and CQB have to be integrated.
• Colorado Springs & Other Progressive Departments
  • Jay details his work with departments like Grand Rapids (which drastically improved outcomes after implementing continuous combatives and scenario training) and Colorado Springs (undergoing 20 hours/yr scenario-based training via EFC).
    • [59:10-71:12]
  • Early data shows marked reductions in injury, escalation, and more efficient custody.
    • “It has changed their department's use of force, totally… They had four incidents that way in 2023, none ended up in shootings.” (59:10 Jay Wadsworth)

Use of Force Doctrine and Legal Landscape

• Graham v. Connor (Use of Force National Standard)
  • Outlines the “severity of the crime / resistance / threat to others” test.
    • [72:26 Jay Wadsworth]
• Recent Case Law Developments
  • Felix v. Barnes (2024-2025): Moves judicial review toward “totality of circumstances” over just the moment of threat; critical for use-of-force evaluations.
    • [74:14-77:57 and 96:32-100:11]
• Officer Awareness Lags
  • Many officers/departments are not kept up-to-date with case law changes unless they self-educate. This is a systemic flaw that can lead to life-altering errors.
    • “Unless they're doing it on their own, it's probably not happening…” (74:14 Jay Wadsworth)
• Political/Legislative Overreach
  • Ban on vascular neck restraints ("chokes") in deadly force situations is highlighted as an example of poorly informed, reactive legislation that paradoxically allows lethal options—but not less-lethal, grappling-based control.
    • "So what you’re saying is I have you, back mounted...you start to reach for a weapon and I can’t choke you… but I could shoot you in the head and it’s okay. How...?" (85:14 Jay Wadsworth)

Training Tactics: Grappling, Fitness, and Tool Use

• Mandatory Grappling Skills
  • Jay argues for a foundational grappling standard—encompassing both wrestling and jiujitsu—for every officer, since the majority of police use-of-force encounters are within grappling range.
    • “If you work in an occupation where physically touching people is literally part of the job... why would you not be as good as possible at that range?” (34:18 Michael)
  • A blue belt in jiujitsu should be a baseline for field officers—realistically ensuring control in most situations without escalation to weapons.
    • “A blue belt can handle this problem 100% of the time, easily, without issue.” (61:11 Jay Wadsworth)
• Pressure Testing: The Need for Resistance
  • Only way to measure readiness is through resistance and scenario stress. Current culture avoids hard, uncomfortable training due to injury (and injury incentives), but this creates greater long-term risk.
• Taser and Less-lethal Use Nuances
  • In-depth discussion on why TASERs (even new models like Taser 10) are unreliable without proper probe placement and follow-up, and why grappling skills are a far more consistent tool for control.
    • [37:44-43:09]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Training Gaps:
  • “Cops are insanely undertrained. The equation they have built right now to train cops is just a failure.” (19:31 Jay Wadsworth)
• On Fitness Standards:
  • "It’s pathetic... One, I don’t know of one place that has a mandatory PT test on a yearly basis..." (28:13 Jay Wadsworth)
• On Pressure Testing:
  • “Most people don't do that because it takes too much time. There's not—they're probably going to get hurt. They're not adding resistance. And when you don't have resistance, you're not going to see improvement.” (68:27 Jay Wadsworth)
• On New Legal Doctrine:
  • “Felix v. Barnes… the Supreme Court ruled 9-0… totality of circumstances is the new way of judging uses of force, not moment of threat.” (96:32 Jay Wadsworth)
• On Use of Police Chokes:
  • "We know that choking...the overwhelming majority of time, saves lives. But I can’t do that. So I have to shoot him because I’m in the use of force to shoot him." (87:07 Jay Wadsworth)

Important Timestamps

• 00:47–06:41: SIG 320 safety issues and implications for agencies
• 10:12–18:45: NYC open-carry incident, public reaction, concealed carry laws, culture
• 19:31–28:13: Police training standards, fitness, responsibility
• 38:00–43:09: Taser mechanics, Taser 10, less-lethal reliability and user training
• 59:10–71:12: Grand Rapids & Colorado Springs PD: implementing continuous officer combatives/scenario training, dramatic reduction in force escalation
• 72:26–74:14: Graham v. Connor and use-of-force standards
• 85:14–89:06: Bans on vascular chokes/neck restraints in policing (political reaction vs. real outcomes)
• 96:32–101:11: Vehicle extraction—body cam breakdowns, crossfire, officer-induced jeopardy, and the legal ramifications (Felix v. Barnes, San Bernardino incident)

Conclusion & Takeaways

• Ongoing, Resistance-Based Training Is Essential
  • Both case studies and legal trends underscore the necessity. Officers are overwhelmingly hands-on, but insufficiently prepared.
• Department and Officer Responsibility
  • Both institutional support and individual drive are required to reach necessary standards.
• Realistic, Scenario-Based Drills With Resistance MUST Replace Siloed, Static Approaches
  • Only under stress and dynamic uncertainty can officers gain the decision-making and physical proficiency required for safety and public trust.
• Administrative and Political Leadership Must Listen to Field Realities, Not Just Legal or Political Optics
  • Misguided policies (e.g. outright bans on chokes) can create more harm than good; data-driven approaches are imperative.
• Legal Doctrine is Evolving—Departments Must Keep Up
  • The move toward "totality of circumstances" in federal use-of-force review requires that policies and training keep pace.

Resources & Where to Find Jay

• EFC: Effective Combatives
  • Website: efcombatives.com
  • Instagram & YouTube: @efcombatives
  • Police Post: Instagram/YouTube (for real incident breakdowns, app info)
  • Personal IG: @wadsbjj

Final Thought:
If your department or community values officer safety, public safety, and minimizing unnecessary force, continuous, pressure-based training in both grappling and scenario work cannot be optional. The research, science, and tragic case studies are overwhelming—now the willpower and leadership must follow.