Episode 408 - Josh Tomeoni - Life, Divorce, Rebuilding, Financial Security

Summary

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Cleared Hot – Episode 408

Guest: Josh Tomeoni
Theme: Life, Divorce, Rebuilding, and Financial Security
Air Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Andy Stumpf

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Episode Overview

Andy Stumpf hosts Josh Tomeoni, a financial planner and divorce coach, for an in-depth conversation about navigating life's upheavals—especially divorce, its emotional and financial fallout, rebuilding purpose, and modern masculinity. The episode weaves stories of personal transition, the “midlife crisis,” male vulnerability, personal growth, addiction, and the realities of seeking (and offering) support through dark times.

The tone is candid, humorous, occasionally irreverent, and always deeply honest—aimed at demystifying taboos around men’s struggles, especially as they relate to identity, emotional health, and relationships after significant life changes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcasting, Ethics, and Business Models

[00:34–04:12]

• Andy and Josh discuss the phenomenon of podcasts charging guests, with both expressing distaste for the practice.

• Reflection on creating authentic business models versus profit-driven (and “icky”) approaches in new media.

  “I mean, we're talking five figures, which doesn't make sense to me. For one episode.”
  —Josh, [01:55]

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2. Community, Moving, and the Value of Neighborliness

[04:13–07:27]

• Both reflect on moving from urban to rural areas seeking authentic community.

• Stories of neighbors helping each other, contrasting the surface connections in cities with the deeper reliance found in rural towns.

  “One of the reasons we moved up here is we bought an investment property ... but, like, out there, you know your neighbors. And they've helped us.”
  —Andy, [06:20]

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3. Politics & City Life—Portland, San Francisco, Homelessness, and Policy

[07:30–12:04]

• Discuss Portland’s protests, changes in urban policy (homelessness, drug decriminalization), and the slow pace of recovery in major US cities.

  “...Portland just fell apart and they rioted for like 100 days straight. ... It's like two city blocks. And Portland is huge.”
  —Josh, [08:21]

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4. Life As a Financial Planner & Market Realities

[12:07–15:47]

• Josh shares his two-decade background in financial planning, explaining market unpredictability and debunking the fantasy of easy wins (Bitcoin, stock picking).

  “If you look at The S&P 500 ... about five of them ... has been about 40% of the return. ... Anything happens to those companies...and the whole S&P 500 dramatically shifts.”
  —Josh, [14:02]

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5. Divorce: Identity, Purpose, and Male Vulnerability

[15:25–20:06]

• Josh and Andy both recount divorces, discussing how loss triggered profound reflection on identity, purpose, and masculinity.

• They critique societal messaging that leaves middle-aged men isolated, caught between stoicism and “over-pussified” therapy culture—arguing for a “middle space” of honest support.

  “We don't really have a space where we can be open about that or that we can explore ... this sucks. I don't know what my identity is anymore.”
  —Josh, [17:08]

  “Some of the saddest people I've ever seen are the ones that portray the happiest. And it sucks to see.”
  —Andy, [19:55]

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6. The Divorce Process: Coaching, Therapy, and Systemic Gaps

[20:12–27:33]

• Josh explains “divorce coaching”—distinct from legal and financial advice—aimed at helping people transition emotionally and practically.

• Both share personal experiences with therapy: its value, pitfalls, and the reality that lasting change requires doing the work oneself.

  “A therapist's job, in my humble opinion, is to help you get from past to present. ... A coach is looking at you present to get you forward.”
  —Josh, [28:24]

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7. Masculinity, Generational Change & Relationship Roles

[33:11–36:24]

• Discussion on shifting roles of men across generations, from defined provider-protector models to more flexible, discussion-based dynamics in modern relationships.

  “If you find somebody that you love, you shouldn't have to be stressing about, oh, I need to do this... Just talk out with your partner.”
  —Producer Michael, [35:22]

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8. Parenting Through Divorce & The Impact on Kids

[36:30–43:39]

• Andy expresses concern for the impact divorce had on his children, especially his eldest.

• Both share how they try to model resilience and openness, and foster healthy attitudes toward relationships—even after personal heartbreak.

  “A failed relationship...does not mean that all relationships are going to fail. If you find the right person, you can make it work.”
  —Andy, [39:58]

  “I ask them what they failed at during the day ... to just be okay with the fact that things are going to not work out the way that you wanted them to work out.”
  —Josh, [43:10]

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9. Failure, Social Media, and the Myth of Perfection

[44:34–45:08]

• The hosts highlight how social media obscures life’s struggles, making failure taboo when it’s normal and essential for growth.

  “People are looking for this painless, joyous, stress-free life...it’s not real.”
  —Andy, [44:36]

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10. Addiction, Escapism, and Present-Moment Living

[47:00–54:42]

• Josh reframes addiction as the “escape from the present moment,” expanding it beyond substances to include overwork, exercise, relationships, even morning routines.

• Talks about 12-step programs, authenticity vs. vulnerability, and the challenge men face admitting powerlessness or asking for help.

  “Addiction is just escaping the present moment. ... I could use alcohol, drugs, pornography, shopping, dating, rebound relationships.”
  —Josh, [47:09]

  “We relate better to being authentic than to being vulnerable.”
  —Josh, [53:20]

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11. Toxic Masculinity, Power, and Social Narratives

[56:01–65:00]

• Josh argues that “toxic masculinity” is a cultural misnomer, positing that authentic masculinity and femininity are healthy—“toxic” is just toxicity, disconnected from genuine masculine or feminine traits.

• Andy agrees the catchiness of the term causes damage to perceptions of manhood.

  “I don't believe toxic masculinity exists...masculinity itself is actually a very healthy thing.”
  —Josh, [58:29]

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12. Life Cycles, Growth, and the “Midlife Crisis”

[68:01–77:41]

• The two explore the “seven-year life cycles”—points of crisis, pruning, rebirth, and reflection through life’s decades.

• The “midlife crisis” is reframed as a spiritual, emotional reset, necessary for advancing to the next personal level.

  “From my experience, life tends to cut me down when I think I have it figured out...”
  —Josh, [111:08]

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13. Male Friendship, Shared Trauma, and Depth

[81:23–90:11]

• Both discuss the rarity and value of honest male friendship in the absence of competition—how shared trauma (military, divorce, or otherwise) forges trust, vulnerability, and deep connection.

  “Some of the most trust-built friends that I've ever had came from shared experience...us all going through divorce at the same time.”
  —Josh, [86:00]

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14. Divorce’s Darkest Moments: Identity & Loss

[90:11–101:27]

• Both share the hardest moments of divorce—not the legal process, but the emotional gut-punch of losing identity and sense of self-worth.

  “It was the moment where I realized just how big the chasm was...I convinced myself...somehow it was still gonna be okay. ... Oh, wow. This is not going the other way, and it's just getting worse.”
  —Josh, [92:10]

  “The divorce. For me, people think that going through SEAL training was hard. ... the divorce was harder...emotionally just shattering sense of self.”
  —Andy, [100:21]

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15. Rebuilding, Forgiveness, and Acceptance

[101:27–104:21]

• Stories of forgiveness and rebuilding, agreement that the pain was worth it for the personal transformation—and for their kids.

  “Would you go through it all again to arrive at the place right now? I would as well.”
  —Andy & Josh, [103:08]

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16. Commitment & Remarriage After Divorce

[115:31–120:57]

• Debate on the value of remarriage, especially for men—given legal, financial, and emotional realities post-divorce. Emphasis on commitment over ceremonial paperwork.

  “I don't see a lot of advantages for marriage anymore. ... It's more about the commitment than it's about anything else.”
  —Josh, [116:05]

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17. Playful Close: Dogs, Movie References, and Staying Human

[121:13–126:59]

• Light-hearted banter about pets (Andy’s miniature dachshund), the importance of confidence and authenticity—and a detour into cult films (Boondock Saints).
• Josh shares his Instagram handle (@joshthederelict) as a resource for men seeking guidance or community during divorce or major life transition.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Josh on masculine crisis:
  “The highest suicide rate in America, 35 to 50 year old men. Why? We're at the peak of everything. ... We are defined by our similarities, not our differences.” [18:36]

• Andy on failure and parenting:
  “I ask them what they failed at during the day... I want them to understand... to just be okay with the fact that things are going to not work out the way that you wanted them to work out.” [43:10]

• Josh on moving forward after loss:
  “It's just a new layer of okay, here's another failure. How do I look at this? Do I see myself again as this shameful person ... I wouldn't change a thing.” [102:42]

• Andy on camaraderie:
  “What is camaraderie? ... laughter and suffering, probably coexisting back and forth in a matter of seconds.” [87:36]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Podcast Business Ethics: [00:34–04:12]
• Small Town vs. City Life: [04:13–07:27]
• Portland/Urban Policy Disasters: [07:30–12:04]
• Financial Markets & Life as a Planner: [12:07–15:47]
• Divorce & Male Vulnerability: [15:25–20:06]
• Divorce Process, Therapy & Coaching: [20:12–27:33]
• Masculinity & Generational Roles: [33:11–36:24]
• Parenting Through Divorce: [36:30–43:39]
• Failure & Social Media Perfection: [44:34–45:08]
• Addiction & Escapism: [47:00–54:42]
• Toxic Masculinity, Language & Society: [56:01–65:00]
• Life Cycles and Midlife Crisis: [68:01–77:41]
• Friendship and Trauma: [81:23–90:11]
• Hardest Moments of Divorce: [90:11–101:27]
• Remarriage & Commitment: [115:31–120:57]
• Closing: Community Resources & Culture: [121:13–126:59]

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How to Connect with Josh

• Instagram: @joshthederelict
• Josh offers community, coaching and resources specifically for men (especially ages 35–50) navigating divorce, rebuilding, and seeking authentic connection.

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“We're often just asking ourselves the question that we're telling our kids.”
—Josh, [43:10]

“Suffering is universal. We are not alone, even when life feels darkest.”
—Andy, throughout

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Transcript

[Josh the Derelict]

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[Michael]

Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north to south.

[Josh the Derelict]

West of the smoke. West of the smoke.

[Michael]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Where do you want to begin? I appreciate you reaching out cold, by the way.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, welcome.

[Michael]

I, you know, I don't have the ability to respond to every single email that I get. And as we were talking about at the coffee shop, I don't want to tell people how to do their business model. There was an interesting question from our manager. And Michael, I'm curious your thoughts on this too, because you've been around the podcast world a bit. Connor was asking if we charge for having guests on which I wasn't aware that people do that. And to me, and again, I'm not telling people how to do their business model. There's something off there. Not that it's wrong, it's just a little bit. That sounds a little bit gross to me. And then you had heard of somebody believe the state of Nevada, which was a large fee though.

[Josh the Derelict]

A very large fee.

[Michael]

I. Yeah. Not what I would want to do.

[Josh the Derelict]

No.

[Michael]

So.

[Josh the Derelict]

And the reason I found out about that podcast actually is because a friend of mine that I had through a business group was on it and she.

[Michael]

You know, did they get the ROI? Like, did they get a 10?

[Josh the Derelict]

She didn't pay.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because when I reached out to her, I said, did you actually pay this fee? Because I would never pay it because it's insanely high.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

But I'm just curious if you got anything out of it. And she said, well, actually she was connected in some way. So he made some exception. But normally he charges that fee. I was like, I just don't. I mean, we're talking five figures, which doesn't make sense to me. For one episode.

[Michael]

Yeah. In a platform of that size, if. If they have anybody with a above a room temperature IQ handling the ad metrics behind the scenes, they're making plenty of money.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Today's episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. There's nothing new I can tell you about the brand if you've been a follower of the show or you follow me because you know I have deep ties to the organization and the founder. So let's head over to their website and let them speak for themselves. What do we have here? What? Coming soon, the Navy's 250th year roast. I didn't know they had been around for 250 years. Fall product drop. Let's actually just click on that. This is the easiest way to describe what they have. Oh, look at this. We have some. What do you know? Shockingly enough, some long sleeve selections. Fall is in the air. Mountain enamel mug. Oh, I love this. I love these old school camping mugs. Looks like all four of those are a selection of that. Actually, there's a fifth. Yeah. Okay. Cool sweatshirts. All of those things coming back up to the top. We've already seen the Navy. Let's drop over the ultimate hunting giveaway. A fully loaded kit. Value nearly $3,000. All right, that's amazing. So that's what we have with the rotating banner. These are the coffees that you select all the way down to the lightest of roasts, which is their silencer smooth to the darkest of roasts, which is the murdered out in black. What else do we have? You can join the club. Coffee subscriptions. You can get this, whatever you want delivered at whatever frequency you want. Right here. Coffee subscription shirts. Kind of the same thing. Well, not anything you may want, but the shirts that they offer, stickers and then the ecs. This is probably going to be what I would recommend the most. Those individual offerings well curated by coffee experts, which look nothing like me because I'm not a coffee expert. Head over to blackrifflecoffee.com get all of your coffee needs. Is it too early to start talking about Christmas presents? I think it is. That'll be next time. Next month, maybe November. Until then, back to the show. It's weird. I'm not. Again, I'm not here to tell people how to do business. It's not the model that I would. That I would choose.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it feels icky to me.

[Michael]

It does too. But there's a lot of things in life that feel icky to me that people are super stoked about.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, well, you're from California now. You live in Montana for a reason. And maybe there's some ickiness there. I don't Know where? Was it in California? Was it Southern California?

[Michael]

So I was born and raised in Santa Cruz, which they call Northern California, but it is.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's not.

[Michael]

It's dead center.

[Josh the Derelict]

I know where Santa Cruz is. Yeah.

[Michael]

Dead center at best. And Until I was 18, we moved around a bit. We actually lived up here in Montana, in Missoula for a couple years. But I was super young. I remember that it snowed like that kind of young. Not a whole lot of core memories from that. Went up to Northern California from Missoula, small town called Sebastopol. And my mother would only allow me to play Pop Warner football one time. She was deathly afraid that I was going to get hurt. So I showed her later on, obviously, with my choice of hobbies and profession. But I was tying my shoe at a practice and it felt like somebody had my shoulders and was moving me around. And it was the San Andreas earthquake in 89.

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh, wow.

[Michael]

So we moved back because my dad was the son of a brick mason. He was a brick mason himself. He was actually working construction up there. And then stayed in Santa Cruz for. Then. Until I left for the military, because Santa Cruz got rocked. I mean, I bet you there's still unfixed damage if you look hard enough in that area from that earthquake.

[Josh the Derelict]

Wow.

[Michael]

And then started off on the west coast in the military, then the east coast for a bit, and then finished on the West Coast. So I'd been in San Diego for about a decade when we moved. Honestly, more than anything, what got me was how life felt palpably different and just a smaller collection of people. The subdivision that we lived in had more people than this valley that.

[Josh the Derelict]

Wow. And how many of them did you know? Like. No, no.

[Michael]

Oh, at least three.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right? Yeah. I mean. And how many people would you say you have a deep relationship with here in this type of environment? Right.

[Michael]

It's way more. And, you know, it's the typical you.

[Josh the Derelict]

Don'T know your neighbor sort of thing because no one talks to anybody.

[Michael]

Yeah. And even up here, you know, there are, like, where we are right now is we're just off of Main street, you know, like every town has one. If you lived here, you may not know as many people. It's much more rural up here. And as you get out there, you're talking 15, 20, 30 minute response times. People know their neighbors more. It's more collaborative. One of the reasons we moved up here is we bought an investment property that it was being used as an Airbnb. It was actually very turnkey. They just Handed over the website. We used the same manager, and that was the house we stayed at for that month before making the decision to come up here. But, like, out there, you know, your neighbors.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And they've helped us. There was a fire risk out there before. A couple years ago, I'm hauling ass out there. We're, you know, help our neighbor move their gun safe into the middle of their property because you gotta save the guns.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It was kind of awesome. I was like, yeah, like, let's do the mounts and the gun saves. I appreciate where your headspace is, but people are helping each other out.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, for sure.

[Michael]

You know, where. Where we used to live, it's not. And it's not a knock on it where we used to live. You know, It's. You dial 9. 1 1.

[Josh the Derelict]

Anyway, it's just the culture. It's the environment, so. Yeah, I get that.

[Michael]

Yeah. I don't think I could go back, actually.

[Josh the Derelict]

No.

[Michael]

Are you still in Portland?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, well, I live a half hour away from Portland, so it's, you know, I was listening.

[Michael]

Is that enough?

[Josh the Derelict]

It is, yeah. So actually, what made me think about it is your most recent episode. I was listening to it earlier, before I came on Today, and you guys were talking a little bit about. I don't remember which city it was that had some other experiences happen in it, but it was all within like a mile radius. Right. And you wouldn't know that the entire. I think it was la. It was actually la. Same thing. So I don't know if you remember, but back in 2020, and then Portland just fell apart and they rioted for like 100 days straight. Isn't that what ch Was insane?

[Michael]

The city of Chad.

[Josh the Derelict]

I don't know where Chad.

[Michael]

Didn't they take over a block? I swear, there was like, the zone. They called it Chad, Michael.

[Josh the Derelict]

They may have.

[Michael]

This is where you shine, Michael.

[Josh the Derelict]

It might have been.

[Michael]

I'm pretty sure it was, but.

[Josh the Derelict]

But I'll tell you. So every. Everyone that anywhere I would travel and I'd say I was from Portland, they're like, oh, my God, how are you doing that? Like, they thought I was in a war zone. I was like, it's like two blocks. Like two city blocks. And Portland is huge. So, you know, I live a half hour away from that. I don't. I can't even. I'm not even close.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's like living in the mountains where I live.

[Michael]

What'd you find about Chad?

[Josh the Derelict]

It's like it was in Seattle. There you go. Close. And it was Chaz. Chaz. Part of chop. The Capitol Hill occupied protest.

[Michael]

Nice.

[Josh the Derelict]

Similar.

[Michael]

Yeah, it can't be Chad because that's just a male. Karen.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, Chad would work, though.

[Michael]

Chad.

[Josh the Derelict]

Chad would definitely work.

[Michael]

Definitely worked for sure. Chaz. That's right. I just remember, I mean, it really was the expression of people like, we are following no rules. We're going to govern ourselves. Which immediately fell apart.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, of course it did.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because anarchy always works. Always.

[Michael]

No infrastructure whatsoever. Yeah, they needed help. They were begging. Begging is probably not the right word. Soliciting for donations for food, water, all of it.

[Josh the Derelict]

You know what's amazing though, is they push it so far and then they're very, very anti law enforcement during this entire time as well, which obviously was happening around the nation, but very strong in Portland. And they push it so far and then they get all the law enforcement out and then nobody's doing anything. And it was probably years until they finally were like, oh, we need help. Like, you pushed them all out, you guys. Are you serious?

[Michael]

And I don't know how you rebuild that. The policies, they're taking years.

[Josh the Derelict]

And Portland is still like, I used to live in Portland. I will never live in Portland, Portland proper, ever again.

[Michael]

How long do you think it would take? I mean, so Portland was on the leading edge of decriminalizing all narcotics as well, right?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it's still.

[Michael]

To which they have, I believe, done a 180 on that. I think they went. I think now it is no longer decriminalized. But the point is, you make those changes in California. There's some amazing things about California, but some of the really. Santa Cruz is actually a very far left progressive area where I grew up. But there's other examples. Silicon Valley has a different flavor of that and it's more ideological, I would say. San Francisco has another example of really progressive policies. The answers to these tests are out there for people to look at. And it's odd that they don't really look at it like New York to me, and I'm not an expert by any stretch, but if New York continues on the trend that they seem to be on, they're going to be San Francisco in about five years.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, I can do that.

[Michael]

San Francisco is not doing great, but again, not the whole Bay Area up there. It's probably. I mean, I know businesses are fleeing the homeless problem in California. I don't have the vocabulary to describe how out of control it is. And again, that's not necessarily completely a policy issue, but the policies are tied to it for sure. It will take a long time to unwind that. And I don't understand why people don't look to the readily available answers to the tests that are there.

[Josh the Derelict]

I will give Portland some credit. They have helped that population a bit the last couple years, which is surprising to me because, I mean, again, five years ago, it just. There was just homeless people everywhere.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Downtown. I mean, you literally couldn't go anywhere. I had plenty of people that lived in these nice fancy rise buildings, like friends, business partners, etc. That literally couldn't even get in their building without stepping in a pile of shit and somebody putting a needle in their arm. And it's like, you're paying how many millions of dollars for that? That's not going to last forever. While they were building the first Ritz Carlton ever in Portland, I'm like, this is ironic. Strong makes a lot of sense.

[Michael]

Yeah. I believe that's called a dichotomy.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it is for sure.

[Michael]

Yeah. So what are you up to these days? What do you do for a living?

[Josh the Derelict]

Good question. So I've been a financial planner for almost two decades now.

[Michael]

And the markets looking, doing.

[Josh the Derelict]

That's what everybody always asks me whenever I start with that.

[Michael]

Should we buy Bitcoin now?

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh, God, we're going to do. We're going to do Bitcoin already.

[Michael]

So I just know nothing. I mean, I kind of know what it is, but. Do you invest in bitcoin, Michael?

[Josh the Derelict]

No.

[Michael]

Good, man. I'm terrified of it. For no reason, really, other than I don't understand it.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, no one does.

[Michael]

Yeah. I get the blockchain. I can understand the utility of that. I just. I do kick myself because I do remember when bitcoin was like a dollar.

[Josh the Derelict]

Of course.

[Michael]

I really wish I had dumped ten grand into that.

[Josh the Derelict]

Everybody always remembers when whatever was whatever.

[Michael]

Yeah, totally.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right. It doesn't matter if you can find Apple.

[Michael]

Or of course, I might actually use it for exactly that purpose.

[Josh the Derelict]

Back to the future, right? That's exact. Exactly what it is. Hey, man, all sports teams scrounge.

[Michael]

No, screw the score teams and the stocks. If you scrounge ten grand together and just put it in Bitcoin when it's a dollar.

[Josh the Derelict]

Sure. And then why not?

[Michael]

You need to have a real long conversation with your former self, regardless of how much money it looks like, I'm telling you.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, don't.

[Michael]

20, 25 looks better.

[Josh the Derelict]

Don't touch. Don't touch. Yeah. Let it be.

[Michael]

Be real tough. Be real. Those numbers got real big. What do you think it'll Go to.

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh, I have no idea. I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna touch that one.

[Michael]

I never thought it would be over $100,000. That is insane to me.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it is.

[Michael]

Yeah. All right, how about traditional markets? How we doing? Are we on the collision? Are there a collapse? Are we base jumping off the edge? What do we got?

[Josh the Derelict]

You know, markets will do what markets do. That's my answer. I know that that's such a lame answer, but it's my answer because they will continue to. So let me answer it this way. I was convinced just based on all the literature and the backing and everything else, that a couple years ago we were gonna have a huge crash. I was con. Now, there were some dips for sure and some bigger ones over the last several years. But I Really, I saw 50, 60% drops. That never happened.

[Michael]

Really?

[Josh the Derelict]

So will that happen? Sure, it'll happen. I mean, if you. Here's an easy way that I like to explain to people. If you look at The S&P 500, for those that don't know, that's 500 large US companies. That's what it's called. S&P 500 of those 500 large companies, about five of them over the last five, six, seven, almost even a decade. About five of them. It depends on the year you look has been about 40% of the return. Five companies, you can probably guess what they are.

[Michael]

I mean, Apple's going to be up there. Amazon, probably Microsoft. Yeah. All the big ones you're going to recognize.

[Josh the Derelict]

So anything happens to those companies, even just a blip in it, and the whole S&P 500 dramatically shifts.

[Michael]

We need a new one. We need the S&P 10 and the S&P 490.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, there you go.

[Michael]

If it has that much impact, I mean, maybe it would have more utility if they did split it. I mean, I don't know if it would change anybody's investments profiles, but wow, that's incredible that those companies. There's a trillion dollar company already, right? Did Apple crossover much higher? Wow.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. Yeah. But to go back to your question, so I've been doing that. I mean, that's, that's my day job that I've had forever when I do it, you know, I do, I do. It's changed a lot over the years. So who I've wanted to help has changed a lot over the years. So I went through a divorce several years ago.

[Michael]

It's fun, isn't it?

[Josh the Derelict]

You've been through one, I heard just through some of your episodes. Yeah, they're a lot of fun. I was hearing your story about the. The big wedding that you had and then the courthouse wedding that you had.

[Michael]

Yes, they were.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right.

[Michael]

They had a different economic impact.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. Really? You think. You think? I had the 200 person one back in the day, so. Yeah, I know what that one's like. Yeah.

[Michael]

Stinks.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Still stings, right? I'm not mad about it, but I remember it happened. Not the wedding. I love the wedding. But I remember the checks associated with it.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, for sure. So when I went through that, I really started getting much bigger passion. Just honestly, for guys going through divorce, especially guys that are our age. Ish. Right. Middle aged guys that, you know, in our society, there's a big population. Let's say that if you are. I heard you talking about this as well on that same episode. White, right. Cisgender. Right. That's the expression. Straight upper middle class male. Then you're the problem with a lot of population today.

[Michael]

Not.

[Josh the Derelict]

Not everybody, but a lot of population today. And these guys have a really hard time when they're going through this midlife change. And often it is accompanied by divorce, business failure, whatever else they're going through. You've gone through it, I've gone through it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

And we don't really have a space where we can be open about that or that we can actually explore it together because there's either this side of people saying, we'll just buck up. Right. You fall off the horse, you get back on the horse, pick yourself up by your bootstraps. All the things my grandfather used to tell me back in the day. Or there's this side, which is the. You know, I think I've listened to enough of your episodes now to say that over pussified maybe is a word I can say on here and be okay with it. It is the Internet, the over pussified culture over here of like, let's just all sit around and hold our hands and sing Kumbaya and sit in therapy for the next 30 years talking about the exact problem. And we don't have a real space in the middle for guys to be like, look, this sucks. This is. I don't know what my identity is anymore. I don't know what my purpose is anymore. I don't. I thought that it was for this. I thought it was for my fam. This is me too, by the way. Yeah. I'm not just talking about other guys.

[Michael]

Everything you've said so far is accurate for me as well.

[Josh the Derelict]

Like, I don't know who I am. I was a family guy. I was married to my wife. I thought I was going to be married forever. That was my intent. That was always my intent. I had the kids, I had the job, I had all the stuff. And then it shifted. And there's so many guys when it shifts, like, what do we do? Because women in general, I think it's much more accepted for them to get help with that sort of thing. They can go to therapy, they can go to support groups, they can go. But that us guys, like, it feels. I don't know, I think for a lot of guys it feels weird. Like I don't really want to do that. Or maybe it doesn't feel weird, I just don't know how to do it or I don't want to be in either one of these camps. And then I think the saddest thing for me is that what that translates to is the highest suicide rate in America, 35 to 50 year old men. Why? We're at the peak of everything. I mean, yourself, you're in a great physical shape. You're obviously very successful, right? Have all.

[Michael]

I wouldn't necessarily use those terms. I appreciate what you're saying, but I.

[Josh the Derelict]

Know you well enough to know that you are, you know, it's. Yeah. Successful for most of the world. Sure, let's say that. Right.

[Michael]

You know, every day though, I wake up wondering if I'm doing enough. You know what I mean? It's one of the things I do.

[Josh the Derelict]

I do too.

[Michael]

It's one of the things I struggle with. I don't struggle with it. It's a battle that I have accepted that I think is just the, the maybe it's a good thing. Are you doing a good enough job to fill in the blank? And maybe that could be the parent for my kids. My kids are, you know, you have younger children. My kids are at a different phase in life. And the things that I can actually do to impact their life are actually. They're limited now and a lot of it is support, sometimes just money. Am I making the right decisions so I can think three years ahead to help them? Then what do I want my life to look like in 3 years? Also, am I even good enough at any of the stuff that I do to be able to accomplish those things? Every day I have those same doubts and I wish that more people could talk about those things because this suffering with what you think is a unique problem. We are defined by our similarities, not our differences. At least in my experience, in my conversations with Real people face to face online. This facade of perfection and only pinnacles and mountaintops and success.

[Josh the Derelict]

Cool.

[Michael]

I get it. That's that ecosystem. Some of the saddest people I've ever seen are the ones that portray the happiest. And it sucks to see it does.

[Josh the Derelict]

It breaks my heart. Yeah, it really does.

[Michael]

But the divorce.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, you go back to the divorce. So when. When I. So I went through my divorce, I had to go through a couple years of just figuring out who I was. I'm still going through that. I shouldn't make it sound like I've arrived somehow.

[Michael]

How long was the actual process for you?

[Josh the Derelict]

About two years.

[Michael]

Same.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, about two years. And it was. It was contentious. It was difficult. I was same. I, you know, in court, years later. Right. Still multiple times a year. I mean, it's just. It's just one of those situations, unfortunately.

[Michael]

Did you guys try mediation?

[Josh the Derelict]

I can only speak for myself.

[Michael]

Fair.

[Josh the Derelict]

I tried it.

[Michael]

Yeah. I was. At least. We were. We not. I. We were at least able to mediate, but our court date would have been so far. It was. It was incredible. The distance ahead. They put the court date.

[Josh the Derelict]

Here's the other thing about mediation is it depends on the state. Right. So our state requires mediation before court.

[Michael]

Oh, really?

[Josh the Derelict]

So we had to go through it.

[Michael]

I don't think that is the case in Montana. But it was definitely. It did take two years. I. I heard a story recently. I'll leave all the details out, but it was a couple days. They were actually able to mediate and get through it in a couple days.

[Josh the Derelict]

That's amazing.

[Michael]

I really would have. Wish we could have.

[Josh the Derelict]

I just heard this story the other day, too. I mean, I've heard this story several times, and it's. Because. So again, in the states, especially the ones that require mediation, a lot of the times, the goal is you go in for one day and you mediate for one day, and you're done. And that's the idea. I was like, that sounds like a wonderful idea. I love it.

[Michael]

Until there's emotions and anger and resentment and feeling of.

[Josh the Derelict]

And I'm gonna fight for over the coffee table or the hammer, everything.

[Michael]

Or what I'm gonna get per month and how long I'm gonna get it per month. And what do you want to be when it comes to the kids? Yeah, buckle up.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's a hassle.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

So when I finally got to a place where I was like, man, this is. This is why I'm here. I have to help these guys go through what I went through because no one's doing it. So I started reaching out to people that did any sort of divorce coaching. Mediators, attorneys, coaches.

[Michael]

Divorce coaching?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Tell me more.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, I will.

[Michael]

This is a niche industry I might need to look into.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. So I start asking all these people and guess what? They all tell me 95% of our clients are women. I was like, huh?

[Michael]

Really?

[Josh the Derelict]

Why is that? What do you think?

[Michael]

Because they're smarter than us?

[Josh the Derelict]

I think it's because I've met two types of guys getting divorced. There's the ones that have pretty good relationships with their soon to be exes and they can just do the mediation in a day or two and just make it work. Right. I had a buddy of mine that went through a divorce around the same time I did that. His wife and I were close enough that with. With themselves. Excuse me, were close enough that they literally just got the paperwork online, filled it out themselves, had an attorney look at it, signed it, we're done. Well, I was so jealous of him during the process. Good for him. Absolutely. I was. So I was like, dude, do whatever you can to keep that relationship like that. Because that is, that is amazing. That's a godsend right there. And then of course there's the other extreme, but so there's, there's those guys that have those decent relationships and can just make sure it gets done right. And then there's the other guys that it's contentious or they need attorneys or they need something. But then that's usually where their mind stops, is like, well, I got the attorney. The attorney's just going to take care of everything. So where divorce coaching comes in is it fills in all the gaps that the attorneys don't do. Which there's a lot. There's a lot.

[Michael]

There is a lot. And I also think that guys are less willing to reach out for help and talk for sure. Those things.

[Josh the Derelict]

100%.

[Michael]

Yeah, it sucks.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'm a man, I can do it.

[Michael]

Yeah. Or you feel like you're supposed to be able to do it or I should be able to do this. And that is a really negative self licking ice cream cone. You can just go round and around and around with that one.

[Josh the Derelict]

And brother, look, I did the same thing. That's why I'm doing this now. Because I was that guy. I was like, well, I got the attorney, I can figure it out.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

And thankfully, with my financial background, I didn't need a finance. So there's financial divorce coaching, which is a thing. And you can get a certain designation for It. In order to help people through just the financial piece. I didn't need that going through mine because I'd been doing it for so long. I was good. But I was shocked at how little attorneys, the courts, judges, know about numbers and finances until I went through my process. And I've seen so many guys go through it.

[Michael]

They're probably just experts in the procedural aspect, right?

[Josh the Derelict]

100%.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

But you. But you rely on your attorney for that, Right? Who else are you relying on?

[Michael]

Well, if you have a question about divorce and you only have an attorney who's going to get even.

[Josh the Derelict]

The guys that have financial advisors or financial planners that I work with, they're not going to their finance person because they don't know about divorce planning. It's a different. It's a different thing. So they'll go to their attorney and their attorney gives them bad information and then they don't find out until they're divorced. And it's a bummer.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're helping guys navigate that process and gals. Which is a good thing. One thing that helped me, talking to other people about it. Like, I talked to a counselor pretty extensively every week throughout the entire process.

[Josh the Derelict]

Me too.

[Michael]

And I'm super open about, like. People probably think I'm a broken record when it comes to counseling, but it's had a tremendous impact on my life.

[Josh the Derelict]

Me too.

[Michael]

And I've watched it have impact on other people's lives. And I do get positive feedback from saying I would have never considered it until I heard you talking about it. So for those of you who think I'm a broken record, whatever. Skip this episode, skip forward. It has impact. Not all therapists are great. You need to find a good match. It's not overnight. And guess what? You do all the work. Not the therapist. That's another one people like. Well, I went in and I talked for an hour and nothing is any different. I'm shocked. I can't believe I am so sucked that your life isn't completely different.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right.

[Michael]

But it. Yeah, I mean, that was. That helped tremendously, but I was used to talking about stuff. My old job. I mean, honestly, we spent a lot of time around the guys that we worked with and we would just talk about stuff that happened all the time, and I was comfortable sharing with those guys. So what's the difference? Sharing with somebody who doesn't even know you as well as they do? You know, I mean, I guess I looked at it from the perspective of what could. I mean, what's the worst that could happen.

[Josh the Derelict]

I mean, I think the worst that can happen, that happens to a lot of people is they get stuck in therapy talking about the same problem for 20 years.

[Michael]

That's not therapy, though.

[Josh the Derelict]

I agreed. Yeah, but this is the 80, 20 rule of any industry, right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Going back to what you said previously.

[Michael]

Yeah. Don't get lost in the process.

[Josh the Derelict]

Here's the thing. This is where I think a lot of people get in trouble. This is where I got in trouble, is that you go to a professional for a certain thing and then you expect them to do other things. So, example, you go to an attorney because you're getting divorced and you expect them to be your counselor, your financial planner, your coach, your all, your spiritual advisor. They're none of those things. They are. We walk you through court, we get all the paperwork done, we try to make sure you don't get fucked too much and that you guys can compromise on something else. That's their goal. Attorneys. Ask any divorce attorney, you think they like being therapists? It's like the last thing they want to do.

[Michael]

You know, they are eating, so they hate it. So much of it too, though.

[Josh the Derelict]

They do.

[Michael]

Yeah, they do.

[Josh the Derelict]

Even my own did. And I had a therapist going through it. Because there's just times where you get so fucking riled up about everything.

[Michael]

Well, you want to explain why you feel the way you feel? Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

And they don't care. Right. And the good attorneys will just be like, okay, like that's great. Let's just.

[Michael]

The other ones will be like, hey, just. Can you write me a super long email that I can charge you every six months for to read this? Or I'll just leave this on speaker and do other work. But don't worry, the billing clock is running.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right. 100.

[Michael]

There's that too.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, for sure.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

So it, it's like that in any. It's. It's so going back to therapy. It's the same thing with therapists. A therapist's job, in my humble opinion, is to help you get from past to present. So any sort of. I had this trauma, I had this childhood experience, I had this thing that's still affecting me in the present. Let me get past that so that I can just be a present focused person. They're not future oriented ever. Not even really good therapists, because none.

[Michael]

Of us have a crystal ball.

[Josh the Derelict]

True. But I would say that's where a coach comes in. That's different than a therapist. A therapist is looking backwards to get you present. A coach is looking at you present to get you forward.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

So whether somebody is doing it to get six pack abs or to grow their business or for emotions or whatever else it is. Right. So when, when somebody goes to a therapist and they say, great, now help me move forward, that's not the therapist's job. That's not what they're good at. They're good at helping you get present. So just like going to an attorney and expecting them to be a financial wizard moving forward, it's just not going to work well. And then I see these people get stuck in therapy forever because they can't figure out how to move forward.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

And they just kind of keep looking back and what are you gonna do with a therapist once you're done? Like, I remember I went to therapy for years during this process because I needed a lot of it and I didn't realize I did until I started going through this process. Maybe you were the same, I don't know. I came from a family where therapy was bullshit and no one should go to therapy because just figure your shit out. That was the kind of family I came from.

[Michael]

So I came from a family where my mom gave my dad an ultimatum and said, you either sort your shit out and talk with somebody about from his experiences in Vietnam or I'm taking the kids and I'm bailing. Which is a part of why we moved up to Missoula. He was working with veterans center up there. So he went the other path. What was interesting, he had a very strained relationship with his father to the point where his weird early memory of being at my grandfather's house pretty sure was Christmas Day. Like, wow, these are amazing lights that are bouncing off the walls. I'm like, oh, those are the cop cars kicking us out. Because he called the police suite.

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh, wow.

[Michael]

Like fully disowned his son, my sister and I, which for the better. I mean, I didn't really know much about the man at that age. And the more I've learned, it's unfortunate that he has passed away because I would have liked to go up one side of him and down the other verbally with what I thought of him. He thought therapy was a sign of weakness. But my dad was able to break that, you know what I mean? Because you can either break the cycle that's rolling downhill on you or you can pass it downhill to others. My dad was able to break that. That probably helped my willingness to talk to somebody else as well. You see that example, it's a lot more powerful than somebody just talking about it. You see Somebody in your life meaningful doing that. It's like, okay, I'll give that a go.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, I. Strongest men I've ever met are the men that will do that. They're not the ones that pretend that they don't need it.

[Michael]

Asking for help is one of the strongest things I think people can.

[Josh the Derelict]

100%.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

We're built as tribe. If we don't live as tribe, then it's weakness. You know, it's like, so we're in Montana. I think cowboys and I always think of this idea of kind of this lone cowboy going out and doing things. Right. And this whole idea of just this lone, individual, independent guy going doing things. I'm like, every time I hear that analogy, I think, yeah, but what were cowboys really like? They always went out in tribes, right?

[Michael]

Oh, the working ranches were always multiple people.

[Josh the Derelict]

It was always multiple people. And they're always helping each other out and they're always there to back each other up. So this idea that even a cowboy would be this independent lone ranger just going out by themselves is insane. I. I just don't get it. I don't get where this idea. Why is it as men, do you think. Why is it as men that we think we have to just figure it.

[Michael]

Out because we're not that smart?

[Josh the Derelict]

It's true. It's very true.

[Michael]

There's a reason why women have, in the greater picture, a longer life expectancy.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. We are more power also, too, by the way.

[Michael]

I know.

[Josh the Derelict]

We are just a lot more power. Anyone that thinks that men have more power are not looking at women very closely.

[Michael]

I think if women knew how dumb we are, like, if they truly could get a look under the hood, they might not. They might go live on an island by themselves.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's true. It's the old joke of, like, the woman asked the man what he's thinking of, and he's literally thinking of nothing because minds are just blank.

[Michael]

And they think we're.

[Josh the Derelict]

Of course they do, because they're always thinking about something. I'm like, no, I'm not that smart. I'm just literally spacing out. Like, I just. I needed a moment just to.

[Michael]

Like a bird, huh?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. I'm glad people can't read minds, women specifically, because they would just.

[Josh the Derelict]

For sure. Could you imagine they.

[Michael]

Can we just put them on an island?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

We'll come visit you guys occasionally, but just go do whatever it is you do over there by yourself.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, for sure. 100.

[Michael]

Yeah. I. I'm just being honest.

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh, man, that's Funny.

[Michael]

I don't know. I don't know where that comes from. The. I don't know if that's passed down generationally. Do you think that still stands up today? Do you think that's what the current generation of men think? I don't know.

[Josh the Derelict]

I mean, we're talking current generation as in younger than us.

[Michael]

Because I don't. I would agree that I'm 47. I would agree that most men of the age that I am at were navigated their life like, it is your job to figure this out regardless of the obstacles that are put in front of you. Cool story. See you at the finish line. Like, you need to figure it out. You need to be able to be a protector, a provider, all of which that can be taken too far. It's funny when people talk about, to me that's, you know, masculinity is your ability to do those things. Toxic masculinity, which is probably a thing when people define it, though, it's like a really extreme, bizarre example of that that I would agree with is unhealthy, but it's also not the definition of what I think masculinity is. Anything can be taken too far. But I wonder, I don't know. Michael, you're the youngest person in this room. What's your generation's take on, like, what's the role of a man?

[Josh the Derelict]

How old are you, Michael?

[Michael]

He's 23, 25.

[Josh the Derelict]

Don't listen to him.

[Michael]

23. He's trying to make you feel like he's older than he is.

[Josh the Derelict]

I. In my opinion, and I think this kind of. It is definitely not as pressured to be. Like, you need to provide. You need to.

[Michael]

But what is pressured for your generation? You need to be whatever it is you want to be or.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, kind of. Actually, like, in my opinion, my ideal relationship is like, as long as you talk it out, work it out beforehand what your roles are, it can be whatever you want. But if you both are good with that, then it's great. Go for it. Is that confusing to you ever? Because it's less defined than previous generations?

[Michael]

A lot more flexibility.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right.

[Michael]

I mean, again, if it's a gingerbread cookie and you each find the shape and it fits together well like a puzzle piece, I think that could be great. But, yeah, I wonder if that could be confusing, too.

[Josh the Derelict]

To me, it's. It's not. And I honestly think people overthink the.

[Michael]

Whole roles a lot.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think if you find somebody that you love, it's not going to be like, you shouldn't have to be stressing about, oh, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this. Just talk out with your partner and be like, hey, this is how I'm feeling. And yeah, I don't know. I. In my opinion at least, you know, I don't think it's, it's as big of an issue as I think a lot of people make it out to be. Interesting.

[Michael]

I will say this. So of my three children, two have talked pretty openly about a desire to have a family one day. My oldest son, not interested really in that. And it seems like that is a little bit more prevalent as well. And I'm not putting a judgment of a pro or a con on that. Low birth rates in countries. You can look at places like China that had a one child policy and what's going to happen to their population size in the decades to come is going to be very interesting. But.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, especially with just a bunch of men.

[Michael]

Yes, they valued men over women. Right. You know, what was it? They put the women in the baskets. And I hope that's a wives tale and not a real thing.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Even though I. Oh, it's real. Yeah. I was gonna say, I think it's not.

[Josh the Derelict]

I mean, I've heard, I've heard firsthand experiences of that sort of thing. So.

[Michael]

Yeah. And so my, One of my biggest fears about entering into the divorce, which was my decision to initiate, I was the one who made that decision, was the impact that it could potentially have on the kids. And I do worry that the. I'm always super careful to talk about anything about the divorce because I have a platform and she doesn't. And I don't think it's fair for me to get into details in any way.

[Josh the Derelict]

Same.

[Michael]

It was contentious for sure. It still is contentious and that just is what it is. I'll take an equal hand in that because I can get hot under the collar just like anybody else can. But I worry that he feels that way because he was the oldest going through that and it had the biggest impact on him. And that's. It's not what I wanted. And more than anything, I'm remarried now. Our three year anniversary is coming up in August.

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh, nice.

[Michael]

More than anything, I want to show him what a healthy relationship can look like. And I'm hoping that that will have impact as well, you know, but the ink is, is deeper on the other side. I was, yeah, I was with his mom for just under 20 years.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, yeah, I, I get that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

I was with my kid's mom for 16. And I see it the most in my oldest as well. He's not 12. You know, he's. He's the main one that even remembers us being together. The other two don't even really remember that much, which I think is a good thing. And I. I do, too. I think there's pros and cons, honestly. You know, I've. I've worked with enough guys at different ages of their kids when they're going through it. I think there's pros and cons, depending on how old they are. But the one thing I will say too, though, is I've definitely seen that show up in his kind of attitude towards things. Like, I've only had. I've had one serious relationship since the divorce that has met my children. I'm very protective of introducing them to anybody that I date. So they've only met one person. We were together for almost two years, so they had a good amount of experience with her. But I definitely struggle with that. When that relationship ended is like, oh, man. Now this is what I'm showing my son, that I'm failing at this again. And is he gonna have any sort of interest or desire to try this at all when he's not seeing his dad do it? That's definitely been an insecurity of mine in the past, for sure.

[Michael]

So you could look at it like that, or you could look at it as, you know, the example you're setting for your son is perhaps you just realize that it wasn't a good fit. You need to advocate for yourself, and if it's not right, don't force it. And it doesn't mean that all relationships. And this is the conversation I'll have with my oldest. You know, my children are free to make the decisions in their life. I try to guide them to the best way that I can. But almost all two out of the three of them are, you know, in the letter of the law. They're adults. Anybody who thinks that you become adult because you turn 18, and all of a sudden you've got it figured out. I remember when I thought that too.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And it's when I turned 18, and now I look back and I go, whoa.

[Josh the Derelict]

I did too. That's when I met my ex wife. And then I started dating her at 19. Then I got married at 22, and I thought I knew everything.

[Michael]

I got married at 23.

[Josh the Derelict]

Clearly didn't happen.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. But I'll tell him. I try to talk to him, like, listen, a failed relationship between Me and your mom or anybody else or you and a girlfriend that you have had does not mean that all relationships are going to fail. If you find the right person, you can make it work. Does that mean you're always going to find the right person?

[Josh the Derelict]

No.

[Michael]

Does it mean you might have to go through some really bad stuff to appreciate the good? Probably. And buckle up for that, buddy, because it's coming. But I just don't want him to lose. I don't want to be alone.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You know, and maybe that's. You know, there are people out there who can do okay alone. If Covid taught us one thing that there's not that many of those out there that can do.

[Josh the Derelict]

Not as many as they thought there were. Holy cow. We all thought we were good being alone until we had to be alone.

[Michael]

Yeah. So there are some people who can probably do okay with that. I don't know if he's one of those people, but I want him to at least be open to it. But again, it's his choice to make. And I just. I do worry, though, I carry that with me of did I change or fracture for him? The idea of a partner that. The idea of a partner that makes your life better and you're willing to engage in that, even though, yes, there is a risk that it may not work out because he'll say things like, well, why would I want to get married? Because if it doesn't work out, they're just going to take half my stuff. Like, well, there's an aspect of what you're saying that is real, but if you find somebody that is amazing, just at least keep it in the back of your mind that it might be worth it.

[Josh the Derelict]

I don't remember who says the quote, and I'm not going to try it because I'm going to butcher it. But the quote is essentially something to the effect of, without heartbreak in relationship, it doesn't make relationship or love worth it. In other words, what would be the point of having love and relationship if there wasn't some sort of heartbreak? Because if we can't compare it to something, then it doesn't have the value that it has. So that's true in everything. Right. So you mentioned failure earlier. Let's talk about failure for a second. The. The. If you look up the definition of failure, which you guys can do if you want, but if you look up the definition of failure, the second definition of failure essentially says that you were trying to accomplish something and it didn't happen, you're trying to do something and it didn't happen. That's all it means. So all. All it says is, basically, you had intended consequences and it didn't occur that way. So based on the definition, I could walk across the floor right here and I could trip, and that's a failure. But we're so scared of using the word. But you mentioned earlier about failing at relationships. Well, that was a failure. But guess what? Every relationship fails at some point. Every single one. There is no perfect relationship. They don't exist. So why is that important? Well, without the failure of that relationship, we can't see the beauty of it. You can't see the love. There's no. Without any contrast. What's the point? Like, what would be the beauty and the love or anything else if there's no contrast on what the other side is? Right.

[Michael]

Easy to talk about when you're not in the Valley.

[Josh the Derelict]

So much easier. But let me encourage you with something, and maybe you don't need this encouragement. Just based on what you said, though, is, brother, you got to forgive yourself for that if you have.

[Michael]

I forgave myself. I just know that it's real.

[Josh the Derelict]

It is real.

[Michael]

And I still want to make sure that when. When the moments present themselves that I can at least put a glimmer of sunshine or sunlight on an idea, that I plant it and I leave it alone. You know, I don't hold them up at gun pointing it. So I'll be like, you'll be married in two years.

[Josh the Derelict]

One of the things I started doing with my kids maybe six months to a year ago is I started. And I ask them this almost every day. Not every day, but almost every day. I ask them what they failed at during the day because what I want them to understand, which is actually good for me as well. I'm really just asking myself this when I'm asking, you know, as. As parents. Right. You're often just asking, asking yourself the question that you're telling your kids. But what I want them to think about is, Is to just be okay with the fact that things are going to not work out the way that you wanted them to work out.

[Michael]

Most of them.

[Josh the Derelict]

Most of them. So let's not hide behind some scary word like most people hear. Failure, I think, and they think of some sort of shameful, like, I am a failure. No, no. No one is a failure. We all fail.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

But as we fail, that's how we get stronger. Any successful person. Name it. Name a successful person that didn't fail a million times.

[Michael]

Yeah, you can't. I mean, there's like, what do they call it, A white elephant or what? I'm sure there's some weird person that you could point out that probably came from generational wealth that just knocked it out of the park. But.

[Josh the Derelict]

Or just like failed a bunch when they're 18 and then somehow had a perfect life sometimes.

[Michael]

Yeah, somehow, somewhere I'm sure there's somebody can point like look at this person. Yeah, of course for Everybody else that's normal.

[Josh the Derelict]

99.99999.

[Michael]

Even more than that, it's. Yeah, it's a tough lens. I mean people are looking for this painless, joyous, stress free life, brother.

[Josh the Derelict]

Come back to social media for that one. Right.

[Michael]

Well, it just, it's not real. You're never going to find it. I actually think life, as I get older, I think life is more about figuring out ways to at least embrace the struggle and if you do it right, you can kind of enjoy it.

[Josh the Derelict]

So going back to this, since my kids are younger and none of them are dating yet, what I'm concerned of. Yeah, it's funny how 12 year olds date. My oldest.

[Michael]

Right.

[Josh the Derelict]

I always hear about that. Oh, they're dating. What does that mean? I don't know. They look at each other at school.

[Michael]

Oh, definitely. Definitely long term. Definitely long term.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yes. Give it a week. So what I worry about, which is part of the reason I have this whole failure conversation with them when you talk about relationships, is I don't want them to be among a lot of their classmates that will, I repeat, will have robot girlfriend or boyfriends. It will be half of them. I don't know. It's going to be a big percentage. Yeah, but why is that going to happen? Because of the fact that you don't have to deal with a failure. You don't have to deal with the heartache. You can just kind of program it to however you want to program it, which is why, you know, things like pornography are so popular because there's no sort of connection there. You don't actually have to put yourself out there in order to do something. You just kind of pick and choose whatever it is that you want. And that's what I'm worried about. I'm curious from a younger generation, but.

[Michael]

Oh, he's a connoisseur of pornography.

[Josh the Derelict]

No, I'm more curious about.

[Michael]

We can't even pull up his search history. We're talking felonious.

[Josh the Derelict]

Like it's happening right now.

[Michael]

Unfortunately, he does under my tab.

[Josh the Derelict]

Is that what's going on right now?

[Michael]

I'm Logged under your account. Like, son of a. It's not me.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, I'm not going to pull this one up. Yes. It's going to get us taken down.

[Michael]

Is the porn addiction thing real? Is this a dopamine? I. I have. I have seen pornography in my life. Don't get me wrong. And then. Cool.

[Josh the Derelict]

I haven't. What's it like?

[Michael]

It's like two people.

[Josh the Derelict]

See that side face? I just got.

[Michael]

It's like two people are super loving.

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh yeah. That's intimacy and connection.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Communication.

[Michael]

I just hope people get exposed to it later in life because can you imagine how that would feel fracture if you thought that that was the normal route to intimacy? But I hear about people who have porn addictions. Is it. Are they addicted to watching other people have sex? Like, what do you get out of that? Don't get me wrong.

[Josh the Derelict]

Like, well, so let's back up and talk about what addiction is.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

Okay. So this is the way I view addiction, which I think is a very simple way of doing it. Addiction is just escaping the present moment.

[Michael]

Okay. It's a mechanism.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's a mechanism to escape the present moment in whatever capacity I want to use. So I could use alcohol, I could use drugs, I could use pornography, I could use shopping, I could use dating, I could use rebound relationships. Doesn't matter.

[Michael]

Let's add into that therapy morning routine.

[Josh the Derelict]

100 more for sure. Ice baths.

[Michael]

You get lost. My favorite are those that find.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, you do Jiu Jitsu. I mean, talk about how many gym bros are in this addictive path.

[Michael]

I mean not Michael and I or.

[Josh the Derelict]

Or work for guys. Workaholism. Huge one.

[Michael]

Jiu Jitsu is an interesting one. My wife has openly talked about it. It's. You can. It's one of the. It's an activity where you can disassociate and just focus on the moment and which. Which is a great thing. And I actually think it's a really good thing for the mind to put down your day to day mundane problems because it's real hard to think about balancing your checkbook when somebody's choking your face off. Unless you want to get your face choked off. But eventually most people are like, I don't like this. I want to choke your face, so I need to learn some shit. But she has said she in her life, her words, not mine. And not exactly in this way. But there were times where she knew that she was using Jiu Jitsu not to improve her Jiu Jitsu, but to escape the things that she knew she Needed to work on. Yep. And I see this with the people who.

[Josh the Derelict]

No, no. That being said though, is that better than shooting heroin in your arm? I mean, yes, in some circumstances, yes. Because the consequences might not be as dire.

[Michael]

Listen, sir, I'm not an expert on heroin, right. I don't know.

[Josh the Derelict]

I am.

[Michael]

The potential. It's better health benefits of heroin.

[Josh the Derelict]

I don't either.

[Michael]

Maybe it improves your sleep score. I'm not sure. I am joking, everyone. I don't believe there are any health benefits.

[Josh the Derelict]

Now, we're from our sponsors, whatever pharmaceutical company you want to have on here.

[Michael]

Yeah, I don't believe there are any health. Yeah, I think it's a healthier mechanism. But again, if you put your problems aside and don't deal with them, the backpack is going to be full and ready for you to deal with it at some point in time. The morning routines I think are great, but what people, some people seem to lose is that it's supposed to optimize you for the remainder of your day, not turn you into an enlightened insufferable who spends four hours doing a morning routine and then needs a nap because they're exhausted from their morning routine.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right. There's a guy I follow online and he talks a lot about those morning routines. He says, you know, 85% of the people that are doing all these morning routines should just get up and fucking work. I was like, yeah, I think there's some truth to that.

[Michael]

Or find one or two of those things that legitimately springboard you like cold punch. He had a guy on who was the, the founder of plunge. He's like, oh, you don't cold plunge. I'm like, listen, dude, this is where my exact words, I'd rather have a 300 pound Samoan wearing 9 inch stiletto heels river dancing.

[Josh the Derelict]

I've done it before on my ball sack.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm just not interested.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'm not. I don't like cold, so I just don't. I don't. There's just. I did it and it was good for me to do it, to realize like, oh, this is how difficult nice bath is. Oh, this is what it's like getting really, really cold temperatures. Great.

[Michael]

If I, if I did it for five minutes though, and it legit made a demonstrable difference in my day, I would suffer through it. I haven't found that jiu jitsu for me. I can go for an hour, disassociate a bit. And it's funny for me, I have enough laps around the sun that I realize I oftentimes will solve problems better if I don't directly think about and try to smash my head against the wal. What can I do? What can I do? What can I do? I'll put it down for a little bit and I'll find some things to do. Jiu jitsu is a good example. You're just in the moment and it's wild. I'll finish and be like, okay, and I'll look at something from a different angle. So it is helpful in that way. And so for me, it's. It's emotionally exhausting in a good way. It's physically exhausting in a good way. It helps me look at different things. But yeah, you can take that out of control as well too. You still have to solving those problems or finding the solution. Guess what? Now you just have the tools to go solve that problem. And that's where the rubber meets the road.

[Josh the Derelict]

Here's the thing though, with addiction, it's really not that complicated. And one of the keys with dealing with addiction is change in physiology, which you're talking about right now. And that is. I remember a mentor said this to me a long time ago when I first started dealing with the addictions that were in my life is they said, look, nothing is forever. Everything's temporary, including emotions, including how you're feeling. So if you're feeling this way, it will not last forever. Have you ever met somebody who's been sad, had 247 their entire life? No, it doesn't exist. Because even the saddest person you've ever met still has moments where they're feeling some other sort of emotion.

[Michael]

Doesn't last forever unless you make a decision in that moment that is permanent.

[Josh the Derelict]

And that's where the physiology comes in. Because sometimes all it takes is I got to just stand up, I got to go for a walk, I got to go do jujitsu. It doesn't have to even be an hour. It could just be, I need to walk around the block, I need to jump on a rebounder, I need to do some jumping jacks. It could be, you know, I'm in the middle of the day oftentimes and I'm doing my thing and I have a couple minutes, I'll just get on the ground and do a few push ups and just that energy just changes so that I can get out of whatever my state is that makes me want to stay in that state. Because the thing with addiction is it just makes me want to stay there. And unless I can shift my body in A way to get me out of that state. That's where people get in trouble. So again, whether it's heroin or love or sex or anything else, that's where people get in trouble. Work, working out, right? So the, the thing going back to addiction, when I first. So part of my whole experience when I was going through all this stuff is I also started dealing with like, oh, do I have some addictions in my life? And I had to look really closely at that. I thought I was fine. Of course, like everybody does. No one knows they have addictions before they know they have an addiction, if you know what I mean. And when I started looking at that, one of the things that I did is I went through a 12 step program. And here's what I learned about 12 step programs. I wasn't an alcoholic either, by the way, because that's what everybody always thinks is alcohol or drugs. It wasn't either one for me. But here's the thing that a 12 step program teaches you. It basically just teaches you, like this thing that you're using to get out of your present moment, this thing that you are. Feel like you're suffering, can be something else. You just have to admit that you have a really difficult time getting out of this state. And that's the idea of powerlessness. So 12 steppers will talk about being powerless. And as guys, we don't like that because it feels the same reason. We don't like vulnerability, because vulnerability feels like, I can't, I don't have any power. Right? I. I'm not strong. I can't do these things. What I often say with guys is, I think we relate better to being authentic than to being vulnerable.

[Michael]

Yeah, okay, I can see that.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because vulnerable is, oh, no, yeah, a bear is attacking me. There's nothing I can do. Vulnerable. Authentic is, no, no, I'm just being here with myself and I'm open about my emotion. I'm open about what's going on. So the thing about 12 Stepper about addiction is first just realizing like, oh, I can't control this. I have to get to a point where I can't control whatever this is. In other words, I'm feeling something really uncomfortable and I'm using work or drugs or sex or whatever to escape this because I don't actually want to be here with myself right now because it's really uncomfortable. Then once you realize you're at that place, you realize, like we were talking about earlier, oh, I actually need help from something else. Which is the idea of a higher power God, spirit, whatever you want to call it. It's not a religious program. It's just whatever you think is bigger than yourself. Oh, that bigger thing can actually help me out. And then I have brothers that can help me out. And then I got to just deal with my own shit. And then I got to be honest about things. That's all 12 step is. I personally think everyone on the planet should go through 12 step because we all have something that's keeping us away from that. Now, you might be doing 12 step through Jiu Jitsu as an example.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

But there are times where even that, like, Fight Club is a great example of this. Remember the movie Fight Club or the book where he gets addicted to going to addicted addiction programs? I don't know if you remember that aspect of this movie or not.

[Michael]

Yeah. He had to split up. I forget the woman's character, but they had to split because. Yeah, they didn't want to go to the same one. He's like, I wanted testicular cancer.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right. And then he ends up getting addicted to Fight Club, and then she ends up going to all the other.

[Michael]

Yeah, but.

[Josh the Derelict]

But the point is the same, is that you even going to those addiction groups, you can become addicted because you're still not dealing with what's going on with me right now. And how do I actually deal with my own present emotions, Everything else. And like you said, you go to Jiu Jitsu every day for an hour and come back, and guess what? You're still there. And shit's still there. Everything that you doesn't go away.

[Michael]

No. At all.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's like traveling. I love to travel, but I found for myself. I went through years of traveling where I realized I was traveling because I was trying to get away from my shit. And it never happened. It never worked.

[Michael]

Shockingly enough, it was. Yeah, Carry on.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right. You can't leave your own stuff. It's like the typical guy that, like, gets divorced and, you know, goes and travels around the world or goes and moves somewhere else or anything else, and they still have the same problems.

[Michael]

This is still the same guy.

[Josh the Derelict]

Still the same guy.

[Michael]

Yeah, man.

[Josh the Derelict]

Come back to something that you said.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Far away, a long time ago.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Josh the Derelict]

You're talking about, like, years ago. Yeah, Years ago. And I didn't even know you.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Toxic masculinity. Should I come back to that?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because this is something I'm really passionate about these days.

[Michael]

You're passionate about toxic?

[Josh the Derelict]

I am. 100%.

[Michael]

How dare you.

[Josh the Derelict]

I love it. I love it. I'm here in Montana with my guns and my. My beard.

[Michael]

You get a ticket for not having a gun here.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, I've, I've heard. Good. I have my gun with me. Don't worry about it.

[Michael]

Good. So today's episode is brought to you by Mud Water. Let me know if any of these ring true to you. Do you struggle with brain fog and maybe feeling a little bit groggy in the mornings? Are you sensitive to caffeine? And perhaps if you do drink coffee, you're feeling a little bit jittery and anxious after your first morning cup of joe? Do you like the taste of matcha? Which to me I personally feel like it tastes like yard clippings. But I digress. If any of those sound like you, may I suggest trying Mud Water? Perhaps you're saying to yourself, what is Mud Water? Well, it's a beverage and it's packed with cacao, chai, turmeric and adaptogenic mushrooms for a smooth, focused energy without the crash. And it's great over ice, which is how I prefer my beverages because I can consume them faster and get what it is I want delivered as quickly as possible without burning my mouth. Every single ingredient in Mud waters products are 100% USDA certified organic, non GMO, gluten free, vegan and kosher. There is also zero sugar and no sweeteners added. Every ingredient also serves a purpose with organic ingredients for a clean natural boost. Mud Water smooth, earthy flavors provide a delicious and natural source of energy. Their OG blend contains cacao and chai for a hint of caffeine and hot chocolate like flavor Lion's mane for focus, cordyceps to promote natural energy and both Chaga and Reishi to support healthy immune systems. How easy is Mud Water to prepare? Couldn't be simpler. Drop it in your favorite mug or vessel, pour some water on top, give it a mix and you're good to go. People oftentimes like to add a little bit of creamer, maybe honey, maybe even some cbd. Your choice. If this sounds like something you may want to try and you're ready to make the switch to a cleaner energy, head over to mudwtr.com and grab your starter kit today. Right now, listeners are going to get an exclusive deal. Up to 43% off your entire order plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use the code cleared hot that is right up to 43% off with code clearedhut at M u d w t r.com it's right down in the show Notes after Your purchase. They're going to ask you how you found them. Do me a favor. Please show some support to the show by letting them know that either myself or the show sent you their way.

[Josh the Derelict]

This goes back to the filters that we look through. It's the same with addiction. It's the same with all these other things we talk about. I don't believe toxic masculinity exists. And I'll explain this. I'll explain why. I believe. I think, similar to what you did, based on a comment that you made earlier, that masculinity itself is actually a very healthy thing.

[Michael]

I think it's essential for society to function.

[Josh the Derelict]

I agree. Just like I do with femininity. I don't think that. I think they're different. And let's define something for a second. You, as a man, have masculine traits and feminine traits. Myself, as a man, have masculine traits and feminine traits. The majority of men have majority masculine traits.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

The majority of women have majority feminine traits. There are outliers of men that have more feminine traits. There are outliers. I knew that was coming. I didn't say anything fully expected.

[Michael]

I did not say anything. I just. My mind went to a place when he was.

[Josh the Derelict]

How would you. How would you describe it? Would you say that you have a majority masculine traits or majority feminine traits?

[Michael]

Let's talk with. Start with the haircut in general.

[Josh the Derelict]

Just in general. Probably masculine. I mean, define, like, what would you.

[Michael]

Curly red hair, feminine. Hey, yours isn't curly. I don't know.

[Josh the Derelict]

I mean, I have a male anatomy, so that's pretty masculine.

[Michael]

Well, that's up for debate in this modern era, but that's true.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, so let's say historically, masculine traits are more associated with power, courage, force, getting things done. Right. Those are generally more masculine. I really do like working leadership. Yeah. Feminine traits generally are more nurturing, caring, supportive. Okay. Yeah. I would say more masculine because I do like to, like, get after it some. Andy would disagree with that.

[Michael]

But I just want you to unpack what you think is getting after it.

[Josh the Derelict]

Just like. The point is. The point is it's not a big truck. And a gun. That's not masculine. Right. We're talking. Oh, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't own the big truck.

[Michael]

It doesn't.

[Josh the Derelict]

You don't have to. I don't really want a big truck.

[Michael]

You got a gun on the table over there, though. Show them your piece.

[Josh the Derelict]

Nice. That's dope. Yeah, it's my everyday carry. Yeah. You have a concealed carry for that? Does my Tail need a concealed carry. I don't know what.

[Michael]

That's a constitutional carry. So you can, can conceal or open carry. I would say with a flare, no matter what.

[Josh the Derelict]

Or do you have to have a.

[Michael]

You do not have to have a ccw.

[Josh the Derelict]

Okay.

[Michael]

I would say with a flare piece like that, that's open carry. Oh, I open carry that. You know what I mean? That's.

[Josh the Derelict]

I don't know where you're going to put it.

[Michael]

Otherwise people need to see it.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Because it's a statement piece.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it is a statement piece for sure. Absolutely. So let's go back to what we were saying. So I, I believe so strongly about how good masculine traits are and how good feminine traits are that I honestly think that every single problem that we have in all society would, would cease to exist if people just authentically lived in their true masculine selves and their true feminine selves. I, I firmly believe that. So let's go back to toxic masculinity, which only exists, by the way, because toxic femininity, how often you've heard about.

[Michael]

That, that doesn't trend as well.

[Josh the Derelict]

I've never even heard the phrase.

[Michael]

I have heard people talking about it in the terms of what you just said. Why isn't it talked about?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, that's the only, only time. So both of them exist, but I don't believe they exist at all because I believe masculinity in and of itself is very healthy. Femininity of it in and of itself is very healthy. So where does toxic masculinity comes from? Well, it comes from something that is a, quote, masculine trait. Like let's take power and then somebody abusing that power to kill people, rape people, destroy people, whatever, and then that's toxic masculine.

[Michael]

Right.

[Josh the Derelict]

I would say that's not toxic masculinity, that's just toxicity.

[Michael]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a term of. It's probably just a matter of vernacular.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think it's a much more than that. And I'll explain why.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because by using the term toxic masculinity, what do you think it's done to a lot of people that use the term?

[Michael]

What has it done to a lot of people that use the term?

[Josh the Derelict]

I'll just tell you what I think. I think what it's done to a lot of people that use the term is that then associate masculinity with toxicity.

[Michael]

I think a lot of people don't even understand the things that they're saying. Most times I do.

[Josh the Derelict]

Us included.

[Michael]

Speaking for myself, 100%. I try to be real honest, though, when I'll use a word, I'll just say, like, I'm not so sure what that means. And oftentimes, Michael, it. I can see what you're saying.

[Josh the Derelict]

I can see where I think it does a lot of disservice and damage to our world is that then people associate masculinity with toxicity, so that even masculinity that's not toxic at all gets in that bucket.

[Michael]

Not smart people.

[Josh the Derelict]

For a lot of people I don't know. I've met a lot of smart people that seem to do that.

[Michael]

Smart people, though, aren't smart in every way. You know what I mean?

[Josh the Derelict]

I agreed.

[Michael]

We have our. We have our blind spots, for sure. I think if you were to break it down and have a conversation with them, they would understand. I think it gets called that because it's catchy and no other reason than that.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, maybe.

[Michael]

Yeah. And I understand what you're saying. It's a traditional trait that is. And that's how I would probably have described it if you would have asked me. It's a traditional trait that is taken far outside of the bounds of what it was likely designed for, and damage is created by it.

[Josh the Derelict]

You know, toxic femininity would be the same thing in some sort of manipulative way. As an example. Right. Instead of a woman caring for somebody and connecting with somebody, she's using them to manipulate as a narcissistic way of doing something. Right. Same. Same difference. I just think it's really. I think it's more than vernacular because I think when you associate the terms with each other, it hurts both of the terms.

[Michael]

I can see what you're saying.

[Josh the Derelict]

And doesn't keep them separate.

[Michael]

I mean, I'm gonna keep using it, but you should.

[Josh the Derelict]

Absolutely. And you already know that. I love it. Just based on how this whole conversation. Yeah.

[Michael]

I'll think of a different way to say it, you know, some other time. Not today, for sure.

[Josh the Derelict]

But think about that and let me know what you think.

[Michael]

I'll get back to you.

[Josh the Derelict]

I want to know later on. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

Be like masculinity plus.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Michael]

And that's the thing. Like, the definition is going to end up being the same. I see what you're saying. You know that. I mean, the association of that word could get people to look at it like that. I don't know. I want to believe people are smarter than that and that they can. You know what I mean? That they can parse that. The problem Is do they have the time, interest, or desire to parse it?

[Josh the Derelict]

I think what you just said is really key. I think people in general are. Well, maybe I shouldn't say people in general smart. Maybe that's me giving too much credit for who.

[Michael]

But again, you can't. They can't. I know a lot of people who are smart in many ways and they're kind of dumb dumbs than others. And I'm also looking into a mirror when I say that I'm smart in some ways and dumb dumbs in others too.

[Josh the Derelict]

Let's put it this way, for anybody that doesn't think that they fall into the propaganda of the propaganda machine.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

They're just naive.

[Michael]

Or they're just deep in the propaganda.

[Josh the Derelict]

Exactly. Including myself.

[Michael]

Yeah, we're all so I. I'm all in the pot of stew.

[Josh the Derelict]

I am cynical as man. So it's easy for me to be like, oh my gosh, how are they so deep in this propaganda? How do they not see it and think that somehow I'm.

[Michael]

Meanwhile, you have a tin foil tuxedo in your hanger.

[Josh the Derelict]

You know, hang in your closet 100%, right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

I got all the food supplies too. Just like everybody else during COVID you have to. Yeah, I mean, that's why I still have 800 rolls of toilet paper in my garage. You know, I mean, it's just. Just in case, you know, a lot.

[Michael]

Of people tried to return their storage and it didn't work.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's weird. So, I mean, Costco takes returned toilet paper. I mean, used.

[Michael]

I'm just saying do whatever you want. Birthdays, you know, hand it out. And also remember that next time that Covid 28 comes out or whatever it is, you don't need 700 rules.

[Josh the Derelict]

Still to this day, it's not as funny anymore. But still to this day, when I have my holiday party in my house, we'll do a white elephant gift exchange and I still hand out a COVID test. It's not quite as funny anymore, you know, five years later. But I still get a kick out of it. So I don't care.

[Michael]

That was a wild time. I tell you what, we. It was a really good. I've heard people say that was whole. That was all engineered around societal control. Personally, I think if it was, they went too far. Probably to the point if there is a virus that's going to kill everybody, people are going to be like, nope, I don't believe you. And everyone's going to die.

[Josh the Derelict]

But it's true. Especially in Montana.

[Michael]

Yeah. Well, they took it too far. But you also. I was shocked at some people's willingness broadly to comply without critical thinking, questions or objection of any kind. I was a little bit shocked.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'm from Portland, man, so I'm not shocked.

[Michael]

I.

[Josh the Derelict]

You know what I'm more shocked at, though? I'm more shocked at the people still to this day that will defend everything that happened back then. Still to this day.

[Michael]

But. Well, if you think about it, though, if they are that person that, on a light switch went down that path, for them to not defend it, they're now challenging their core beliefs about themselves.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, but beliefs change. Not for some people, I understand, but I think that's insane. Yes, it's absolutely insane. It's insane for anyone that is just not the biggest narcissist in the world to not think that their beliefs or anybody else's beliefs change throughout time.

[Michael]

I mean, especially these information updates.

[Josh the Derelict]

You know, it's the people, it's the celebrities that get in trouble for a text that they sent 10 years ago or something. I'm like, yeah, but there. That was 10 years ago. Like, what happened in your life in the last 10 years? Like, 10 years ago, I was married, had kids, had no idea all this that was going on in my life. Didn't have the same business, wasn't working with the same people. I mean, it was a different life for me 10 years ago. So for me to look back 10 years ago on this text that got sent out and to think that somehow my beliefs have always been the exact same, that's. That's crazy to me.

[Michael]

I'm just lucky I lived the vast majority of my life where there wasn't text messaging.

[Josh the Derelict]

Do you think it's just insecurity? Do you think it's just like, I'm too insecure to, like, admit that I did something stupid 10 years ago?

[Michael]

I think that's a part of it, but I honestly do think that it is a core. The depth of their belief or their justification for taking the actions that they did, it would shatter their core perception of themselves and they would have to rebuild. And that's a. It's tough.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's tough.

[Michael]

And if you look at a lot of people, if you are presented with two options, one of them being extremely difficult and one of them being the status quo, which is. Which is perceived as easier. What are most people going to take?

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, of course.

[Michael]

So, yeah, that's why I say I want to believe that most people are smart.

[Josh the Derelict]

Have you heard of the I can't remember what it's called? I think it's the seven year life cycles. Have you heard of this? How everybody goes in these seven year life cycles? Could you look up the seven year life cycles for me? Because one is at age. I'm just thinking of our ages. One is at age 35 and then 42 and then 49. So you're in between 42 and 49. Right? You said 46, 6, 7. 47, yeah.

[Michael]

48 this year.

[Josh the Derelict]

So you're between 42, 49. I'm 41, so I'm still between 35.

[Michael]

So we each have a life cycle coming.

[Josh the Derelict]

We have a different life cycle going on.

[Michael]

Whose is going to be better?

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, it's. It's interesting to me because 35 is when. Really? Yeah, yeah. Can you find the one where it shows the different ages? Yes.

[Michael]

Just hit the. What are you doing? Go back to. Just hit the seven year life cycle. The one up top. I bet you'll take us right there.

[Josh the Derelict]

Probably. Here we are. Yeah, yeah. So scroll down. Let's just go down to like 35. Next one.

[Michael]

The body in full bloom.

[Josh the Derelict]

Actually go to yours first.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

See what mine is.

[Michael]

It's going to be great. It's going to be great there. 21, 20.

[Josh the Derelict]

Play. That turns toward responsibility. Wow.

[Michael]

Emphasis on that first word in the sentence.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. Gain a modicum of control over our emotions and start to integrate our rational faculties, which gives us greater control over our actions. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Michael]

Also when the prefrontal cortex of the human male forms closer to 28 than 21, by the way.

[Josh the Derelict]

Correct.

[Michael]

These are the years that young men are sent off to war. Yep. Always believing that they will not be among the ones who are killed. I can tell you that that is the truth. You never think it's going to be you.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think even just the way that you were talking about relationships earlier makes sense based on this life cycle.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Josh the Derelict]

Of like let's just collaborate and as long as we're having conversation and it's fine because we'll be okay.

[Michael]

Oh. We are learning to think about people other than ourselves. We are being stretched to see life and broader and more self.

[Josh the Derelict]

Sorry in advance for already giving him more ammo against you. He doesn't need. He's going to look this up later and just look at. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. My bad.

[Michael]

We begin to experience the first signs of our talents and special abilities. Michael, what are you.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'm way behind on that.

[Michael]

All right, let's zip forward.

[Josh the Derelict]

Okay. So. So scroll down to the 35. So this is the one I crisis. So the great thing about this, too, is that literally, this is right when I went through my divorces right at the beginning of this phase. So this is called pruning. Let's see. Usually the crisis occurs when we're in our early 40s being cut down by events that seem beyond our control. Right. This is. This is the stereotypical midlife crisis guy going through whatever crisis he's going through.

[Michael]

Disappointment and a sense of failure. This is what you have to look forward to, Michael. Cycles from now. The most common of these disappointments. Divorce, the collapse of a business or financial strife. Man, I hope that doesn't happen all in once to people. Health crisis.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yep, for sure it happened to me. I did all those things during COVID man, too. Most people talk about COVID and they're like, yeah, let me tell you about COVID So not only did I experience Covid, but I also experienced divorce. I experienced a financial failure. I experienced business failure. That was a great year.

[Michael]

Scroll down, Michael. This period. Oh, go back up. This period could best be described by the metaphor of a man or a woman leading a horse by the reins. Our humanity, with its rational and spiritual qualities, is now in front of our instincts, leading the way. The spirit is emerging and is starting to take charge of our lives. It is a time of transition. We once lived exclusively from our own will and power. Now we turn increasingly to God for all that we need. All right, 42 to 49. Soul searching and wondering. Hmm.

[Josh the Derelict]

So this is the time where you're supposed to discover yourself. You feel like you're discovering yourself? No, you got time. You got two years, I guess.

[Michael]

What do I have to look forward to, Michael? Let's go to 49 to 56. Oh, yes. Understanding of life. That's what I'm talking about.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Inspiration, mastery and growing power. Oh, yes. I'm gonna lord it over people. A wealth of experience, certain wisdom.

[Josh the Derelict]

Life has softened you, given your perspective. No longer thrown about by the. What word is that? What a good word. Vicissitudes of daily events.

[Michael]

Let's see here. If you have taken care of your health and have retained your vitality, you can now start to become the person you have always longed to be. Second win. Dreaming of becoming your true self. Michael, scroll down to where my dad's at. It's probably just going to say death, but.

[Josh the Derelict]

70 and beyond. Beyond 70.

[Michael]

78.

[Josh the Derelict]

Okay.

[Michael]

Reflection. During this period, you are no longer bound by any responsibility.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yep. Right.

[Michael]

Well, that part's accurate. There's blessings in every state. What do we got. You are at the threshold of rebirth into the next world and preparing yourself for the next adventure. You're awaiting the call. Okay. I don't know if he would agree with that. Nevertheless, there's still. Okay, cool. Yeah. So basically death.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. My dad's 85, so.

[Michael]

Oh, he's deep in the reflection.

[Josh the Derelict]

He's deep. He's deep.

[Michael]

Does he have any. Does he have any bounds of responsibility to others?

[Josh the Derelict]

No, I mean, he's. He's typical old man. Yeah, he's just doing his own thing.

[Michael]

I mean, a lot of that makes sense. It's. It probably doesn't hold 100% accurate. Like nothing does to everybody. But I can see where they're getting with that.

[Josh the Derelict]

I just think it's interesting because I've, you know, I've definitely been around the block enough to see that life has seasons for sure. And I think these seasons are really interesting and fascinating, especially when talking to men. Especially when talking to men like we were talking about before, that are in that kind of quote unquote, midlife state where they're freaking out and then they're deciding what to do with it. So this is, I would say, a. Like, it'd be curious to see this. Compared to a negative aspect of this. Like, this seems very hopeful and positive, right? Like, you go through this and then you get better and then you wait.

[Michael]

Till the next phase, right? And it's gonna be great.

[Josh the Derelict]

And then eventually versus like all the people that are just 80 and bitter at everybody and hate everybody and just want everybody to die. I mean, that's not what this is saying. This is saying, like, oh, okay, like I've figured things out and now I'm taking stock of my life and I'm getting ready for the next. That seems very positive compared to a lot of 80 year olds that I've met.

[Michael]

How do you think people arrive at that place of just being bitter and angry at everybody?

[Josh the Derelict]

I think it's not.

[Michael]

It's not unique to 80 year olds either.

[Josh the Derelict]

No, it's not a hundred percent. So I think it comes back to. It actually, to me, comes back to addiction that can become an addiction itself. If in the 12 step program, for anybody that's gone through it, when you get to step four, basically through six, you're taking stock of your own life. So you're handling your angerness, your anger, your angerness. I don't know what that is. You're handing your anger, your bitterness, your resentment, and you're realizing that I have to let go of all this stuff in order to just move on with my life. Because it's not poisoning, it's drinking my own poison. Right. I'm not poisoning anybody else anymore. I'm just poisoning myself. So I have to figure out a way to get past this now, which is a very hard step. But you have to do that before. The only step that everybody knows of in the 12 step is the amends step where you go and make amends to everybody. It's step nine, but you have to go through that process first before you can go make amends to people.

[Michael]

What's the last step?

[Josh the Derelict]

The last step, 10 through 12 are basically, just. How do I say this? It's everyone that's in a 12 step program does 10 through 12 the rest of their life.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

So 10 through 12 are. I'm sharing this with other people. I'm having a deeply spiritual connection with myself and my higher power. Daily I'm sharing this news and then I'm basically mentoring other people. So if you think of it in religious terms, it would be very similar to any religion of, well, I have all this information now. Now I'm going to go share it with others. I'm going to go, you know, tell other people about things. I'm going to make sure that I have a good relationship with God. I'm going to. It's just an ongoing daily. Any sort of meditation would be in 10 through 12.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's very like prayer, meditative, community oriented is what those are.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

So. But you can't get there again until you get rid of your own and then you go make any problems that you created go away. That's what amends are. It's not. Amends aren't an apology, by the way. You know, a lot of people think of it's, well, I just need to go say sorry to somebody. Well, you can apologize to somebody and not take any sort of ownership of what you did. Yeah, I could just come to you and say I'm sorry. But why am I sorry? Well, am I sorry because you're mad at me? Am I sorry because I want you to feel better? Because I'm codependent? So if you feel better, then I feel better. Am I sorry because of the fact that I just don't want to fight about something right now? Or am I actually owning the that I did and amends is not an apology. It's not saying that. It's saying what I did was wrong. Here's how it probably affected you. That was bad. That's an immense not an apology.

[Michael]

It's a tough step.

[Josh the Derelict]

So to me, I think this is fascinating because I think it really speaks to that midlife guy dealing with all the crisis. And how do you deal with that crisis? Do I deal with it with those addictive tendencies? Whatever that's going to be. And I would say the healthy male, I see him deal with it in two ways. You see this on social media as well. Working out. Right. Physicality or business. Which is why the biggest coaching industries always, for men, will always be those two things.

[Michael]

That makes sense. Most men also think in addition to that, if you're successful at one, if not both of those, you're going to get a higher return on a potential partner as well, if you will.

[Josh the Derelict]

Bank accounts and belt buckles.

[Michael]

Belt buckles. Very Montana. I watched these young kids get stomped by bulls in the pursuit of a belt buckle, and I just want to take them to the country store. Like, I'll buy you whatever belt buckle.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because that animal is not worth it.

[Michael]

Just stomped your face. And I would like to not see that again. And I think your parents don't want to see it again either, either, man. Because TBI is real and you're a teenager. Let's. Let's at least save that for a little bit later in life.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, for sure.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

You're gonna get the kicked out of you enough. You don't need to do it when you're 15.

[Michael]

I know. So what else do you do for a living besides the financial planning? Working with men, navigating seasons of their life? What else you got going on?

[Josh the Derelict]

Just in general or in with work?

[Michael]

Yeah, professionally.

[Josh the Derelict]

I mean, professionally, that's the main thing I do. You.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Josh the Derelict]

The. The thing I'm most passionate about right now is helping those guys do that. So, yeah, we can do it through financial planning. Of course. That's one aspect of it. But I'm really interested in working with those guys with more than just the bank accounts and the belt buckles. Going back to that, like, could I help somebody get in good shape? Yeah, I'm in good physical shape. I understand how to do it. I understand how to eat and exercise and everything else. That's not that difficult. You could do that through ChatGPT. You don't even need me. It's easy. It's just the accountability. Yeah, but what about everything else? What about creating a space or a tribe of guys that can actually go through these things together, that can actually talk about these things? Was one of the reasons I love your podcast, which is why I reach out to you is because you interview some really interesting people on here. Hopefully I'll fall on that list as well after this interview and talk about some interesting things. And I think it's done in a way where it's not in either of those camps. Like, I don't hear guys coming on here and being like, oh, just try harder. And I also don't hear guys coming on here and just like weeping like little babies the whole time. Right. It's like, no, no, let's figure this out. Like, this is difficult. We have these seasons that we're going through. How do we help each other through this?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

So to me, that's. That's my biggest passion right now is trying to help men rediscover their authentic masculinity. Who. What actually makes them them. And to be able to just be in that and not let other people tell them that it's right or wrong or, or anything else.

[Michael]

Have you seen any trends among the men that you have worked with that has helped them? Trends or just similarities in the situations that they're in or how they're feeling or how they got to that place?

[Josh the Derelict]

Sure. Yeah. Where do I even start with that? I think we've talked about a few of them already. Number one is I think sometimes guys, even if they realize that they need help or they want to work with somebody, they don't know where to start. They don't know who to talk to. The majority, I think, of guys, especially in this. Maybe I should just say in this, I don't know, the people that I work in this country, maybe it's the same in every country in the world. I don't know. Like we as guys get together and what do we talk about?

[Michael]

Well, depend on the group.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. In general, what do most guys talk about?

[Michael]

Sports, drinking, checks, Michael's there, Pokemon or whatever else 23 year olds talk about.

[Josh the Derelict]

25.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. I would say traditional. Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think the traditional guy has a hard time getting deep with the other traditional guy. In general.

[Michael]

Do you think it's always been like that?

[Josh the Derelict]

I don't know. Do you? I mean, I can't speak to any other generation. I'm only the age of myself.

[Michael]

I had. There's two communities of people where I felt like I was capable of having very deep conversations with, specifically the men that I was with because it was the. Both were very male dominated. The military. I had some of the deepest conversations of my life with people that I worked with. The other one was based on.

[Josh the Derelict]

Do you think that real quick on military Since I'm not a veteran, as.

[Michael]

You know, thank you for not serving. That's what I say thank you for.

[Josh the Derelict]

And I actually just think, thank you for having me on and not being a veteran. I appreciate that.

[Michael]

No, it's what I say to people when they say thank you for your service. I say thank you for not serving.

[Josh the Derelict]

You're welcome.

[Michael]

Let me just tell you that one scrambles eggs.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, you're very. How do I respond to that?

[Michael]

They just go, I'm just joking, everyone. I'm not that bad. You can come say hi to me in person. For love of God.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think it's hilarious.

[Michael]

I might have said it a few times.

[Josh the Derelict]

Do you think it's because of space, time? What do you mean atmosphere? I mean, is it because you had time with these guys outside of being distracted by a bunch of other things where you're like sitting around and have the, the space or the capacity to be able to do it without being distracted by a million things that might.

[Michael]

Have been corollary to it. If I had to define it, I would say it was the shared experience. Trust.

[Josh the Derelict]

Trust.

[Michael]

The shared experiences built the trust. The time with them built the trust. It was a world where you. I don't want to overplay it or dramatic, you know, romanticize it. Combat specifically is the minority of people's career. You know, if you spent 20 years in the military, yes, people, even people do an immense amount of deployments. It's. It's not like you're in combat 24 7. It is not like the movies. I wish it was as exciting for people because maybe the stories would be better, but you're not. Some people see more combat than others, but it's the minority of your career. If you look at it in totality and you had to do a pie chart of your entire military career, like a huge portion is going to be selection and training, pre deployment workups. Combat is going to be a super small sliver. In that small sliver, though, there are situations that can exist where you have to immensely trust other people that they are going to do what either you have told them to do or what they have said that they're going to do, or your life might depend on it. There's a lot of trust that comes with that and you can have deep conversations with it. So that would be the reason, I think that those conversations were easier for me to have because again, I'm a Data point of 1. That's all I can give you. But I did hear other people having when I was Obviously having a conversation with somebody. So maybe that's a Data point of 2 because, you know, both people were engaging. I just don't want to get over my skis with my experience or portray it as something that it wasn't. But I did hear and see because I'd have those conversations with a variety of people. So I think for a lot of the guys it was easy to have those conversations.

[Josh the Derelict]

So I relate to that a lot as a non military person because if we go back to trust from shared experience, some of the most trust built friends that I've ever had came from shared experience of us all going through divorce at the same time. Yeah, I don't think, and I'm not saying that's like the military.

[Michael]

No. But I was just about to say is I don't think you don't even need to make the comparison. I don't think the mode matters.

[Josh the Derelict]

I don't think so either.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's the shared. It's the shared experience. And honestly, the divorce, if your experience was anything like mine, was not gumdrops and rainbows falling from the sky.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's especially shared experience with trauma, however.

[Michael]

You want to define that suffering and laughter creates. I mean, if you think what is camaraderie? It is. And again, I wish this is a double edged sword. I wish people understood how utterly idiotic special operations members can be, but then they would never trust us again. So I need them to also believe that we're very capable because we are. But the number of dumb things we talk about or talk each other into doing, you would take away all firearms and anything with the sharp edge if people truly knew. So I need the facade to exist for a little bit so the job can exist. But laughter in the most horrendous moments are what draws that group together. That's all camaraderie is. It's laughter and suffering probably coexisting back and forth in a matter of seconds.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think where my mind goes with that as well is another aspect of that. I think where that's lost with men is if it becomes overly competitive, some of that gets lost. So in that environment, as an example, you're not competing to oh, I can save you more than you can save me. And I was like, no, no, we have to work together.

[Michael]

And you're also not competing for sucks suffrage.

[Josh the Derelict]

Correct. Same in the divorce world. From my experience, especially when I watch a shitty game, yeah, why would I compete?

[Michael]

Watch me do this. So it gets worse for me.

[Josh the Derelict]

But that's my point, because I think where that gets lost then is like, well, if you think about, well, why do I not have as many deep relationships, friendships with work? Well, work's competitive. Why not dating? Well, dating's competitive. Why? You know, all these other things? I think that that's the thing that.

[Michael]

The teams were also very competitive. Don't get me wrong, we kept track of everything.

[Josh the Derelict]

And of course, you were your men, first of all. All men are competitive, but there was.

[Michael]

No competition in those moments where your life was on the line. I'll be honest with you, if there was competition, it was a competition to put yourself in a place of greater danger so somebody else didn't have to. Which is wild. The things I have seen other human beings do. I'm like, I don't know if I have the stones to do that.

[Josh the Derelict]

I believe it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

So going back to your question, has it ever been any different? I don't think so. Because I think what you just shared and what I just shared has always been true. It's just a different experience.

[Michael]

Is the other community.

[Josh the Derelict]

Why base jumping, do you think?

[Michael]

I don't know. Mortality is kind of on the line there. It is not a hobby that I advocate for other people. But I have had some of the deepest conversations with incredibly close friends on the multi hour hikes leading up to exit points before the jump.

[Josh the Derelict]

Is that why, do you think? Because there's this sense that I could die. So maybe I should just be honest for once in my life.

[Michael]

I don't know. It's an individual activity, but it's a team sport is the way that I look at it. Jiu Jitsu is kind of the same way. It's an individual journey, but you have to have training partners. I had jumped alone plenty of times, but God, I enjoyed it so much more when I could sit there and almost piss myself out of fear and laugh about it with a buddy on the edge before you rock forward to a place where even if you want to want to take this one back, like, nope, Performance is now mandatory for the remainder of your life, which might be 30 seconds or it might be 40 years. It. I don't know. I think sharing again, it's sharing those experiences and getting to know those people. I just had deeper, more meaningful conversations. I don't know why, but those are the two communities where it was easier to have them.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, for me it's been anytime my life's really gotten rocked and then other people's lives were getting rocked and we had a shared experience and we dealt with that trauma and like you said, you know, laughter as well through it.

[Michael]

What was the hardest part of your divorce?

[Josh the Derelict]

That's a tough question.

[Michael]

Do you have, like, a moment that. That sticks out?

[Josh the Derelict]

I think for me, it was the moment I. I'm trying to be careful how I say this, because I'm like you. I don't ever, either on my own podcast or other podcasts that I go on, I never talk negatively about my exact. Because I trust me, man, I made plenty of mistakes. I'm not, like, gonna blame her for everything. That's definitely not the case. I think it was the moment where I. How do I say this? It was the moment when I realized just how big the chasm was. Was real. Like, I convinced myself a lot, even into the process that, like, somehow we were still going to work this out and somehow it was still gonna be okay. And I think it was the moment when I realized, like, oh, wow. Like, this is not. This is not going the other way, and it's just getting worse. I think it was even. I think even post divorce actually was harder because. Because it was the moment where I realized, like, it's. It's that moment when you have with any relationship, friendship, or anything else where you look at it and you're like, how could you. You possibly hate me so much? Like, I know that I made a bunch of fucking mistakes. I get it. I know that I was shitty in all these different ways, but, like, how could this be so dramatically different than what I thought it was?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think it's that realization that everyone has when they go through a divorce where they realize whenever it. And maybe it's 10 years before you get divorced, maybe it's during your divorce, maybe it's two years after. I've talked to guys on all sides of that spectrum, but I think it's that moment where you realize, like, how did this shift so much? Like, how did it go from this relationship to this relate? Like, how did we end up here? Right.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

How is it this bad? It was that moment for me.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's a rough one, because it just.

[Josh the Derelict]

It knocked me off of any sort of reality whatsoever. It was the. It was the. The pill moment in the Matrix for me. It was like, oh, this is just completely different than what I thought my life was.

[Michael]

How far into the divorce process was that.

[Josh the Derelict]

Deep? I mean, it was. I think. Well, there were stages. It. You know, like they say grief is like a. Like an onion. Right. And there's layers.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Josh the Derelict]

There are multiple layers. I would say the first layer for Me was when I got handed divorce papers from a stranger. That was definitely, like, kind of the first layer of, like, oh, this is really, like, reality setting in. Like, somebody just handed me papers. Like, this is actually happening right now when I wasn't really expecting it. And I would say the second level is, like, when everything was done. And it was kind of that first time back to, like, court of, like. Like, just that additional, like, you. You're the worst person on the planet. I'm like, oh, I think those two were probably the biggest because it. It. For me, my identity was really wrapped up in my marriage and my family a lot. So I. I would say, you know, like, I don't know. I think more guys that I meet, their identities wrapped up in their work more so than anything else. That's not true for everybody. It was not true for me. Yeah, my identity was more wrapped up in who I was as a family man than it was my work. And so it's. To me, it's like the. The guy that everything is wrapped up in the work, and then they. They go bankrupt and their business fails and everything just falls apart. And they're like, oh, my God, who am I? That's how I felt when I went through my divorce, because it was like, it didn't even matter what I did for work or anything else. It just was like, my life's over. That's how I felt.

[Michael]

Such a gnarly process. For me, it was the Excel spreadsheet of stuff. Yeah. The division of assets, the reduction of a human being to an Excel spreadsheet. And when you were describing how did it get to this point and how do you hate me so much? I definitely went through that. But it was the realization that to somebody who I guess I would have hoped that I would have meant more, too, that I was now a number on a piece of paper and the game was maximum extraction. Not. This was through the proxy of the attorney arguing on her behalf.

[Josh the Derelict]

Of course. Yeah.

[Michael]

But. And again, I mean, I'm as flawed a human being as you'll ever.

[Josh the Derelict]

I.

[Michael]

Not a perfect husband by any stretch. I'm not a perfect father by any stretch. Do the best that I can. Try to be honest about my successes and failures, of which there are far more failures than successes. But looking at that spreadsheet and just like after nearly 20 years, this is now just what's in this column and what's. How did we get here?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Like, I mean, so little to you as a person that my value now is, what can you give That's a rough one.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'm going to talk about one other one that was really rough that is kind of related to this and kind of is.

[Michael]

And then I'm going to talk about one that's rougher because we're competing now. It's not going to be real in any way, but I'm going to make some shit up.

[Josh the Derelict]

This is so I remember we're having brief Olympics.

[Michael]

All right, Currently I'm in first. You have the silver, but you have one more shot at it.

[Josh the Derelict]

Look, mine was worse. So I remember I was in this group of people that had gone through divorce, were going through divorce, and it was kind of this, like, I don't know, support group, for lack of a better term. And it was helpful in a lot of ways. But I remember being in a small group of people and they all said the same thing and I thought they were crazy. So I was still in the middle of my divorce and they were all talking about how their long term relationship that they were in after their divorce, when that one broke up, it was harder than their divorce. And I thought, there's no way. Because during this time, like I said, I'm going through this really contentious divorce process. I'm like, there's absolutely no way. And then I experienced it. And what I realized is, I wouldn't say it was harder or easier. Like, I think that's too generic of a term. But the thing that was harder about it is that you get out of this relationship, right? You, you get divorced, you finally get to the point where you're like, okay, that was awful. I can't believe I'm now being used as like a spreadsheet, right? Integer numbers. Integer a number like at a huge bank or something. And that nothing really matters. You get through that and then you meet somebody else. And then for all intents and purposes, hopefully if you work through some of your stuff, it's a much healthier relationship in a lot of ways because you know what you're not looking for. You know what you are looking for. Hopefully you're healed a little bit. And I'm not talking about the rebound relationship that happens right after the divorce. And it's worse because of. I'm talking about like an actual healthy relationship. So I went through that. And what I realized when that one ended, even though I was the one that ended it, it was mutual, but I initiated it even though it ended. What I realized was harder about that relationship ending was that I had built up a lot of expectation of like, but, but look at who this person is, because now these are all the things that I didn't have before, and it's so healthy and it's so great. And there are elements of that relationship ending that were much harder for me because I was like, but look at how healthy this relationship was versus, like, I could wrap my head around the marriage now realizing, oh, there was all this toxicity, bad stuff that I had to deal with. Now, this one was supposed to be the one. And not that it was gonna save me, per se. God forbid we do that. Like, we already do too much in this society, but now that this one ended, I don't know, can I do this? Like, am I a person that just can't have a healthy relationship? Like, you start doing those things in your head that I didn't do before, because before it's just like, well, I wrote it off as the marriage, and then I get into these other relationships, but then when you find the one that you think is going to work and it doesn't work, that was a complete new mind fuck for me that I wasn't expecting.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's like a compass spinning.

[Josh the Derelict]

And I didn't. And I didn't think in that relationship, like, this is a perfect relationship. We're going to last forever. It wasn't even that I didn't realize how tied up in my own head of, like, oh, this is healthy now, how much that messed with my mind when I got out of it. So that's related. But not related to divorce, because it's. It's. You know, for people listening to this right now, too, I would say that's something also to be careful of.

[Michael]

They're just writing down now in the notes, just don't get married. It could be writing down just celibacy. And here's the thing, like, Monk's life on a mountaintop.

[Josh the Derelict]

And I. Did you go through a cynical phase after your divorce?

[Michael]

Oh, only since I've been born, so.

[Josh the Derelict]

Me too. How did you get past that to get to the place where you are right now, where you got remarried, do you think?

[Michael]

I think that had more to do with my wife's ability to see the person that she knew that I could be. And I wasn't capable of seeing it at the time.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's beautiful.

[Michael]

She's amazing.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I mean, that's what it comes down to. She saw somebody in me that I. I didn't see in the mirror. And she definitely saw me at my lowest moments. The divorce. For me, People think that going through SEAL training was hard. I Am not saying it was a picnic. However, comma, the divorce was harder. And physically of course not. Because I wasn't suffering under a telephone pole or a log on my head and water.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But emotionally, just shattering sense of self and the questions of am I good enough to do anything? Am I good enough to find another partner? Should I actually find another partner partner? Am I so messed up that it is going to be the monk's life on the mountaintop for me? And she was able to see through that, which I mean good on her because I wasn't able to at the time. That was the guy looking in the mirror.

[Josh the Derelict]

You know, for me, like I had an element of that after the marriage and then I did all the healing work and everything else that I did. But I experienced another layer of that like I just talked about after that last relationship because then it was just another. A new crush to my confidence in my ego that I thought I had already healed.

[Michael]

I think that's a good thing.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think so too.

[Michael]

What is the phrase, Michael? The dildo of life oftentimes arrived unlubbed.

[Josh the Derelict]

Is that the phrase, Michael? It's a turn phrase.

[Michael]

It is a turnip phrase. I'm not saying it is a bumper sticker worthy phrase. I think you're supposed to.

[Josh the Derelict]

You don't have that bumper sticker.

[Michael]

I mean, not yet. I mean we can get Michael on Canva here and get to work. Probably have a some working mock ups that we can ab test at the end of the show. I think you're supposed to take the Marvel superhero uppercut to the ball sack. I think it's supposed to happen.

[Josh the Derelict]

Every hero story has it.

[Michael]

Well, I think you have to get hobbled from time to time. I think your confidence has to get shattered because hubris is also super dangerous. And people for whatever reason arriving at this place thinking that they can do everything that they want to absent the experience and knowledge and wisdom on one hand I'm like, you awesome. Like go get it. I wish I kind of had that. But also pack a lunch and maybe an airbag.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Because it's coming for sure. You know, it's supposed to happen. I think it's a good. It's not a good thing that that happened to you, but I bet you have a better sense of who you are after those things happening.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it's just. It's just a new layer of okay, here's another failure. How do I look at this? Do I see myself again as this shameful person that just is, you know, like I. I Didn't, man. If you would ask me 10 years ago if I'd be some 41 year old, like divorced guy that's single and doing my thing, there's absolutely no way I would have said that. Is there a better place I could be? No, this is exactly where I need to be.

[Michael]

Would you go through it all again to arrive at the place right now? I would as well.

[Josh the Derelict]

I wouldn't change a thing.

[Michael]

Yeah. The pain and difficulty of the divorce and the years leading up to it. My ex wife has agreed at times and you know, she may argue she was saying it in anger or just to agree with me to get me to shut up, that we. The divorce was the right call and honestly probably could have pulled the trigger five to 10 years earlier, but we did. And it is what it is. There are so many lessons in that time of the five to the 10 years or even in the relationship in the beginning where I would have never guessed that it would have ended the way that did that will carry me forward and form the way that I am going forward.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I would not change. And especially because of my kids, I would go through. I mean, as I'm sure any parent would, he crawl through hot coals just to cool off on a bed of pointy nails, you know, for your kids. So I would never ever go back in time and change that because of them. But it. Yeah, it changed my life for sure, in the way that I view life. And in the end, for the better, I think.

[Josh the Derelict]

I often wonder, you know, whether you think there's a God or higher power or something, if there is such a being, why did they make it in a way where we have to go through this stuff in order to advance? Because it's the only way to advance is the hard. It's going through the fire. Right. And I have to wonder like, if. If I were God and I created everything, would I make it that way? And why is it made that way? I don't know. Because they assumably could have made it easy. It doesn't have to be this way.

[Michael]

I have to take a guess that God has some level of comedic nature and cynicism as well.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think so too. For sure.

[Michael]

It's like, you know what I need to be? Entertain. Paint.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Here's what we got. I'm not a religious guy by any stretch. I'm completely open to the concept. It's just never landed with me. But yeah, if there was somebody up there, I feel like they've got a pretty good sense of humor.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think so too. Well, and I think it goes back to your sense of hubris. So for me, the sense of. Of God is not the sense of religion. It's the sense that I'm not the biggest thing on this freaking universe.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

And for anybody to think that they are is the highest level of hubris that you could have. How could anybody think that? So there's gotta be something. I don't care if it's God, higher power, universe, whatever. Like, there's something bigger than we are.

[Michael]

There are some people out there, though, who. And I love this thought exercise. You'll ask people, like, if. If this table was the volume of all potentially known information ever. I'm gonna give you a pen, and you get to carve out what section of it you think, you know, size wise. Yeah. I was like, I need a smaller pen because this pinhead is too big.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right.

[Michael]

There are people that might cut this table in half.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. It's true.

[Michael]

And I have so many questions for them.

[Josh the Derelict]

What questions do you have for them?

[Michael]

What the is wrong with you? Would be the first.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, what do you think? I mean, where do you think that comes from?

[Michael]

Hubris.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, but where does hubris come from?

[Michael]

I don't know. I think a variety of factors can lead you to a place of thinking that you are untouchable.

[Josh the Derelict]

I agree.

[Michael]

Glorious ignorance would be one.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think it's insecurity.

[Michael]

Insecurity. Not paying attention to the world around you. I mean, I don't know. And the reality is I don't. I wouldn't ask that to that person because I don't need. I'm not a huge fan of the Stoics, even though I like some of the things I shouldn't say. I shouldn't say. I'm not a huge fan. I'm not well studied on the Stoics.

[Josh the Derelict]

Okay.

[Michael]

One of the things I love that Marcus Aurelius did say, though, was not everything is being asked to be judged by you. So draw your 50% of the table. I honestly probably would just go, cool, because the world's gonna sort that out.

[Josh the Derelict]

It's true. You know what I mean?

[Michael]

Not my circus, not my monkeys. It enlightens me as to maybe where I would want to position that person in my social circle.

[Josh the Derelict]

True.

[Michael]

But beyond that, it's actually their thought process on that is not being asked to be judged by me.

[Josh the Derelict]

But it's. It's also, though, where you're at in your life and realizing that you've tried that so many different times and didn't work versus, like, where Michael's at in his life just based on age.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right. Where I remember in my 20s, I used to be a lot more fired up about that than I am now in my 40s, that's for sure.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Now I'm just like, you know what? If I just sit back, the universe, the world, they'll show that person, oh, it's coming. I don't need to tell them because they're not gonna listen to me just packing a lunch a lot more than I do. Yeah. So why not just let the universe.

[Michael]

Take care and you see it play out. You. It ends in confrontation. It ends in an argument. It might fracture social circles. It might fracture friendships. It's cool. It's just. It's a data point.

[Josh the Derelict]

Here's where I think it comes from. Let's go back to the hubris thing for a second. This is where I think it comes from. I think that for anyone to actually feel fulfillment and satisfaction in their life, there's only two things that they need. I think they need an honest, loving, authentic relationship. Relationship with themself, whoever. Their authentic self is in an honest, loving, authentic relationship with their higher power, Whatever their higher power is. I think that's it. I think where we get into trouble is that we want validation or approval or anything else from anybody else outside of those two people. So whether that means society or it means my spouse, or it means my kids or it means whoever, because everybody else is going to let me down at all times. And that's just something being cynical. It's the human experience. So if I fully expect you or any, like, even this podcast, right. If I just came here needing you to validate me, I'm going to leave empty. Because you might validate me for a little bit, but that's not going to validate me in my life. No, it's just not going to. It's only me and higher power. And I think where people get into a lot of trouble and where this insecurity comes from is like. Like when don't have that good relationship. I don't have that good relationship with higher power. I don't have that good relationship with myself. Therefore, I'm insecure about that. Therefore I need some sort of validation. Therefore that turns into hubris, because that turns into, well, me making sure that I'm doing all the things as the puppet master to make sure that everybody else is feeling validated and validating me and everything else. That's. That's my belief.

[Michael]

I can get behind that. Yeah. People are weird and complicated.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I find as I get older, the pinhead that I would ask for gets smaller and smaller. When I was 20, I might have cut this table in half. And I think that's the normal path. You just.

[Josh the Derelict]

I think so too.

[Michael]

Process time differently. But again, at 20, your brain's not even fully formed.

[Josh the Derelict]

So I'm curious now. When did. How old were you when you went through your divorce?

[Michael]

I gotta do math here. I was.

[Josh the Derelict]

40. Huh?

[Michael]

No, 42.

[Josh the Derelict]

The seven year cycles worked for you too then.

[Michael]

I don't know if I'd call it a midlife crisis, though. I never thought about it like that. I never.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, the seven year cycles don't say midlife crisis either. I'm just saying you were right at the edge of that. Can you put that up there again? The 35 to 42. Yeah, that. That crisis moment. It did say crisis, right? It didn't say midlife crisis. But it did.

[Michael]

I think so.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. Hold on. I deleted it, so I'm gonna have to get it. Okay. You're pulling it back up? Yep, yep.

[Michael]

What do you talk about on your podcast?

[Josh the Derelict]

It's changed a lot since I. So I started about a year and a half ago.

[Michael]

You liking it and.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, I do.

[Michael]

It's a fun medium.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, am I liking it? I don't know. That changes. It depends. Yeah, it depends. Yeah. Go down to the 35 to 42, but it's a lot of the same stuff we're talking about right now. I talk a lot about men being more authentically masculine themselves. We talk a lot about people that are helping go through divorce and other crisis. Yeah, it's crisis. It's not.

[Michael]

Second paragraph, first. Second sentence.

[Josh the Derelict]

There you go. Usually that crisis occurs when we're in our early 40s. Interesting. Cut down by events that seem beyond our control.

[Michael]

Why do you think it is at that age?

[Josh the Derelict]

I think it's because from my experience, life tends to cut me down when I think I have it figured out. And I think that a lot of men think they have it figured out around then because they've done the job thing, they've done the career, they've done the family.

[Michael]

Yeah, but it's not all men initiating the divorce. You know what I mean?

[Josh the Derelict]

No, I understand. I'm not saying it has to be initiation. I just think that the crisis occurs no matter who's initiating at that. That stage. Because men are at a point where they think they have stuff figured out. Think about it. You kind of have, like, maybe you have a little bit of your career figured out you have a little bit of family. You have.

[Michael]

You got some good experience, right? Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

You're at the country club, you got the nice house, you got whatever. Whatever is important to you. That's when life kind of tends to kick you in the ass.

[Michael]

From my experience, fortunately for me, I've never figured out a damn thing. So just keep works for you. I call it failing forward. Somehow I seem to be a little bit more on my toes than my heels.

[Josh the Derelict]

We're asked to expand our vision of life and to embrace a more spiritual approach to life. I think that's interesting. We're learning to grow our souls.

[Michael]

Yeah. So what was your design when starting your podcast? What did you think it was going to be? You said it's changed quite a bit.

[Josh the Derelict]

So it actually started with me and a buddy of mine. We did it together. And the idea was we've both been in. He's in real estate, I'm in finance. And we just got tired of going to all these business conferences and everything else and just people talking about their massive success and they talk about this failure they had 20 years ago. Right. Like, I just sold my company for a billion dollars. Let me tell you about this failure I had 20 years ago. Like, how does that help me?

[Michael]

The struggle is real. I'm still in it. I'm just a billionaire, Right? Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

So what I realized, that did to me and maybe this did it to nobody else, but it did to my buddy. We both realize what that did to us is it wasn't. It wasn't motivating. Like, I understand the motivation supposed to be. Look at all these failures I had. Now I'm success. Okay, great. But tell me when you're going through the shit. Yeah, Like, I want to hear the.

[Michael]

Person that's going to the valleys, not the wave tops. And that's the problem with social media.

[Josh the Derelict]

Correct.

[Michael]

Rewarded for the wave tops. And the valleys are ignored 100%.

[Josh the Derelict]

And the. The people that I respect on social media that have gone through all that, they talk about that and they talk about all the stuff that they went through. But our idea behind the podcast was, well, what if we just talked about the shit when we were in the middle of the shit without having it figured out and just saying, well, I learned this and this is what I'm going through. And so that was the idea behind it. That is then morphed to, he eventually left because he decided that it wasn't. He was also kind of going through this crisis period around the same time. And he Was deciding, well, this isn't kind of how I want. He was kind of in a rebranding phase, let's say. He's like, this doesn't really feel like my brand. I'm like, okay, fine. So he left. And then what I realized afterwards is I was like, okay, but my real passion is helping guys, especially these midlife guys, especially guys going through divorce, trying to figure this stuff out. So now it's really focused on either bringing on people that help those people or people that have that story and talk about, okay, what is it like when you're going through it and how are you still dealing with it? Like, I can talk about my divorce from seven years ago and talk about all the terrible stuff and all that sort of thing, but I could also talk about, well, how is that still affecting me?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

And what's going on and how do. How do I deal with that? Because, you know, maybe you're hard on yourself, too, but I'm really hard on myself because I often just ask myself, like, well, who would want to listen to me? Like, what. What story do I have? And only every day, I haven't arrived anywhere yet, so why does it matter? And then I remember a mentor told me a long time ago, and he said, look, the only thing that you need to mentor anybody else is that you need to have a little bit of humility, and you only need to be a step ahead of them. One step. Not a hundred, just one. And that helps me greatly, because if I can look at somebody and I say, look, man, I was just where you were a couple years ago, going through all this shit, it helps. And I can still feel it. Like, it's still close enough to where I can feel the fire. I'm not so far away. I'm like, I have no idea. Like, if you asked me what it was like at Michael's, I have no idea. That was so long ago, I can't remember.

[Michael]

I struggle to remember as well. I'm pretty sure I did dumb stuff, though.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, I did.

[Michael]

I only know that because courts keep records and stuff.

[Josh the Derelict]

It is all public.

[Michael]

You think you'll ever get married again? Are you open to the idea?

[Josh the Derelict]

I should say I'm open to it. You know, it's interesting you asked that, because I just asked my kids the other day what the odds were that they thought I would get married again. And they were all like, 50, 50 on me. I was asking it as a thought experiment. Well, I was asking as a thought experiment to see how cynical they thought I was about Future relationships. Because I, because if they would have been like, yeah, 90% chance you're not going to, then I would know. I maybe need to tone down my language a little bit.

[Michael]

You were just saying, and they need you back in four.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. So they're all around half. I was like, ah, that seems reasonable.

[Michael]

That's fair.

[Josh the Derelict]

So I am open to it. I, I'm going to go to something you said about your son earlier. I, I, maybe this is my work with the guys that I work with. Maybe it's my own experience. Maybe it's both. I don't see a lot of advantages for marriage anymore. For men especially.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because as much as courts have changed, they're still against men more than they are women. Just look at facts and I just don't, I just don't see a big advantage. I understand it maybe if it's a religious thing. Okay, I get it. But what's the advantage of getting married in the eyes of the government? I, I don't, I see a lot of disadvantages. I don't see a lot of advantages.

[Michael]

It's fair. I've heard a lot of people talk about it that way. But the only thing I would say is keep a.01% open in the back of your mind that if you find the right person, might change your mind. Because I had the same thought.

[Josh the Derelict]

So to me, it's more about the commitment than it's about anything else.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

And I'm not sure, I don't know, is that needed for a commitment?

[Michael]

Depends on the people. I don't think there's any right or wrong answer for that.

[Josh the Derelict]

Here's how I'll answer the question. Good buddy of mine went through divorce around the same time I did. And he just got remarried to his new wife literally a couple weeks ago. And the main reason that he told me he did is because it was important to her. It was a commitment thing. That's how I would answer the question for you. I think if I met the right person and it was important to her, I wouldn't, I wouldn't not want to do it. I would want to do it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Because why not? I just don't see the advantage for myself.

[Michael]

It is an interesting conversation about involving the government in any personal relationship or affairs.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, it's also just, they've proven to.

[Michael]

Us that they're amazing at stuff.

[Josh the Derelict]

To me, it's the commitment thing, but I, I'm at a 70% failure rate at a second marriage. Is it really 80% failure rate of the third marriage?

[Michael]

No way.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

70%.

[Josh the Derelict]

I wonder why something like that you can have Michael look it up and fact check me. But it's something like that.

[Michael]

Wow. Divorce rates.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. For a second divorce.

[Michael]

Yeah, for second and third marriages.

[Josh the Derelict]

Wow. So to me it's like is, is that really a commitment when that many are failing? I don't know.

[Michael]

I would need, I mean I would.

[Josh the Derelict]

How else would you have the commitment like if you didn't get married?

[Michael]

Yeah. I mean there is something to be said for though, I mean, God, it sucks being alone, right? Do some people jump into something and try to force it? 60 to 75% of second marriages. 73 to 74 of third marriage. End of divorce.

[Josh the Derelict]

I was a little high, but it's pretty close.

[Michael]

Go click. Show more Michael Factors contributing baggage from previous relationships.

[Josh the Derelict]

Sure.

[Michael]

Blended families. Of course. Lower initial commitment. Some people may intersect with their marriages with less serious. Huh. Okay. Similar relationship patterns. Yeah. Because if you don't change anything, nothing's going to change. Change cultural and societal.

[Josh the Derelict]

Well, you know what brings that number up too is the people that go through the divorce, they don't really learn how to be, you know, a healthy human being themselves that doesn't need somebody.

[Michael]

Else way too early. Yeah, well, yeah, I, I. Statistics are amazing thing. Your odds of being eaten by a shark are pretty low, but they don't really matter when you're in its jaws, you know what I mean? But it's one in a million womp.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'll tell you this story. So I wrote a short ebook last year helping men with the top five traps to avoid when you're going through a divorce. And one of the things that I did is I went out and I interviewed a bunch of people. So I interviewed coaches and lawyers and therapists and people that went through divorce and I basically asked them all the same question and I said, what are the top three mistakes that you made to try to help other people not make the same mistakes? You know what the number one answer from every single person was? They jumped into another relationship too soon. And what was fascinating about that answer is it didn't matter if they jumped in a relationship one day later or two years later. They all had the same answer.

[Michael]

Interesting.

[Josh the Derelict]

It wasn't a matter of time, it was a matter of where they were at. Yeah, I can see that because there is no timing. Somebody might be ready a day later, somebody might not be ready for 10 years. I don't know. Yeah, but when you're not ready and you're carrying all the stuff like we were Talking about your carry on. Right.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

You're carrying all the stuff into the next marriage. It's no wonder that they all end in divorce. Yeah. So I don't want to be cynical and say I would never get married again simply because the divorce rates are so high, because that's unhealthy as well. I just don't see the advantage of getting married unless it's that commitment piece that might be important to her.

[Michael]

I think that's a good answer because.

[Josh the Derelict]

Most states anyway, they have common law marriage if you're going to live with somebody. So it doesn't really matter if you get married anyway. It's gonna be the same thing if you get divorced.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Josh the Derelict]

Either way, I think that's fair. I just don't know another way of doing it. Like what? What. What other way could you show that commitment to somebody without the marriage?

[Michael]

Forehead tattoos.

[Josh the Derelict]

Sublime tattoos. A book.

[Michael]

Her name is on your forehead. Yours is on hers.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

No regrets.

[Josh the Derelict]

It. I don't see it. I was just trying to see if you, like, were in the process of getting it removed.

[Michael]

My wife. No, she's anti tattoo on herself. She just doesn't have one. She was anti dog, too, because she'd never had one. And now we have a miniature dachshund. She's like, I didn't know you could love anything this much. Granted, he is amazing. Michael Wien sits from time to time. He's an amazing dog.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'm very much looking forward to next week.

[Michael]

Yeah, the wean's amazing.

[Josh the Derelict]

Nice.

[Michael]

It's a total asshole. He understands everything you're saying. And we'll just look at you and say, no.

[Josh the Derelict]

Oh, he's like a cat with his eyes.

[Michael]

Yeah. He's just.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, he's like, fuck you, cat.

[Michael]

Yeah. I'm like, hobby. Come here. And he's just. No. Turns his head and saunters off. He's got a set of plums on him. I tell you, though, for a miniature dachshund, if he was a human being. Cantaloupes.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

It's impressive.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Never getting rid of them. I would like to showcase them more, if I'm being honest.

[Josh the Derelict]

How would you do that?

[Michael]

Instagram, obviously.

[Josh the Derelict]

Just a whole Instagram account just dedicated to.

[Michael]

No, just in the background. I'll take pictures of other things, but the plums will just always be just kind of. I do, actually.

[Josh the Derelict]

Do you?

[Michael]

Yeah, I post about them all the time.

[Josh the Derelict]

Are they just kind of in the background somewhere?

[Michael]

Sometimes they're not even in the background.

[Josh the Derelict]

Sometimes they're in the foreground a little Where's Waldo situation.

[Michael]

Well, he likes to just lay on his back with his paws up. I'm like, that's not a tough picture to take.

[Josh the Derelict]

But you know what? Isn't that just how confident you want to be as a guy? Right. Dogs.

[Michael]

I'm just not that confident.

[Josh the Derelict]

Neither am I. Yeah. Wouldn't that be the best, though? You just.

[Michael]

I mean, except for the eating each other's ass out when you meet a new person.

[Josh the Derelict]

Hey, teach their own. I mean. Yeah, don't judge that.

[Michael]

Who am I to judge? Well, I want to get you back to your kids. We've been out for over two hours. What do you want to close out with? A good one is where can people find your stuff?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, that's good. Well, we mentioned Instagram already. I like Instagram a lot because I use the messaging platform there often and I reply to all the messages I want to reply to. I used to say I replied all the messages. That's just not true anymore. My. My EA does a lot of it. But yeah, reach out to me on Instagram. I love having personal conversations there for anybody that has, you know, doesn't have to be about work or business or coaching or my podcast or anything. Just reach out specifically. Again, that 35 to 50 year old male who's either going through divorced, getting divorced and they just don't know where to turn. Yeah, we're always building tribes and building groups of guys to put them with each other to show them how to have conversation around that. So that's a good place. So on Instagram, my tag is Josh the Derelict. You can write in the show notes.

[Michael]

I like it. I'll put it in the show notes.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. D E R E. D E R E L I C T. Got it. Most people only know that word from Zoolander. Do you know that from Bluelander? That's the first thing I thought of.

[Michael]

When I saw your leak. My own balls.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's exactly what it is.

[Michael]

You know, it's travesty. Is that in not that many years people won't understand that.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, people already don't understand that Brother Michael gets.

[Michael]

Let's. Let's be fair here.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. How. How many of his jokes?

[Michael]

No, no, not the jokes. The movie references. 2 out of 10.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Have you seen the Boondock Saints yet? You're a terrible person. I like.

[Josh the Derelict]

You have to watch Boondock. See all the naked guns, though. It's pretty much the same movie.

[Michael]

What?

[Josh the Derelict]

You guys haven't seen Naked Gun? No, no. How Is that the same movie?

[Michael]

Yeah. I don't care about that. Yeah. The Naked Gun correlating to the Boondock Saints is what tripped me up. I'm joking. We both actually said what at the exact same time.

[Josh the Derelict]

I know. And also, are you talking about the new naked Gun? Have you guys seen the new naked. No. I've heard it's good, though.

[Michael]

I heard it's good. I feel like you don't even know what the Boondock Saints is about. If you think anything, like, for sure.

[Josh the Derelict]

No, I was joking.

[Michael]

I assume. Let me give you a selling point here for the Boondock Saints. He kills a man with a toilet.

[Josh the Derelict]

That's pretty awesome.

[Michael]

Thank you.

[Josh the Derelict]

Go watch it.

[Michael]

It's relatively early in the movie, too. Russian gangster. Russian gangster with a Desert Eagle gets smoked by a toilet.

[Josh the Derelict]

Maybe I'll watch that when I'm watching Javi.

[Michael]

We own it on Apple. And perfect. The account is unlocked. Actually, just start at the A's in the and just keep going. Well, actually, here's the problem.

[Josh the Derelict]

What's the first one under A?

[Michael]

Probably the accountant or something like that. But don't do that, because I've had that Apple ID since my kids were children. There is a robust amount of children's movies in there. And Dora the Explorer and sure, the kids.

[Josh the Derelict]

Right.

[Michael]

So you could look at the date that it was purchased. You're like, wow, that is a long time ago. So there's some good ones in there, though. You understand more about life, for sure.

[Josh the Derelict]

I'm gonna go watch Boondock Sands again during this conversation. It's been too many years for me.

[Michael]

Sean Patrick Flannery, 4th degree black belt. He is in the Boondock Saints.

[Josh the Derelict]

Cool. Yeah.

[Michael]

I'm just trying to figure out ways to interest you in going and watching this. Arguably, there's a bartender with Tourette's.

[Josh the Derelict]

Fantastic.

[Michael]

Fuck ass. And he says that in front of nuns. What else do I need to tell you about this movie?

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it's one of those movies, Michael, that the pop culture that came out of it has influenced a lot of other movies and a lot of things that you've seen that was influential. When you go watch the movie, you're like. Like, oh, it was a trigger your mind for other things.

[Michael]

Absolute economic failure at the box office.

[Josh the Derelict]

Absolutely.

[Michael]

Yeah. And it just crushed. Cult classic. Probably the Blu Ray DVD era.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah. It just became a cult classic.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's amazing. But it just bombed it.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah, it's terrible.

[Michael]

Which I would have enjoyed watching it there.

[Josh the Derelict]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I probably. I'm gonna say twice a year I.

[Josh the Derelict]

Did not see in the theater for sure.

[Michael]

I didn't either, so. Well, cool, man. Let me get you out of here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for making the trip. Cool.

[Josh the Derelict]

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very.

[Michael]

Excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous.

[Josh the Derelict]

A podcast where I talk to random.

[Michael]

People on the phone.

[Josh the Derelict]

I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call. Talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up.

[Michael]

That's all the rules.

[Josh the Derelict]

I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings, crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous.