Episode 411 - Bill Thompson - Special Mission Units and Human Targeting

Summary

Cleared Hot Episode 411 – Bill Thompson: Special Mission Units and Human Targeting

Podcast: Cleared Hot
Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Bill Thompson
Episode Date: October 13, 2025

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Overview

In this multi-faceted episode, Andy Stumpf welcomes Bill Thompson back to the studio for a wide-ranging conversation about military training, leadership, family, technology, and the shifting nature of modern warfare. Drawing from Bill’s background working with Special Mission Units, human targeting, and as the creator of Spartan Forge (an advanced mapping and hunting application), the discussion winds through topics that include SERE school, tech-driven operational changes, parenting struggles, cyber vulnerabilities, pandemic skepticism, and cultural critique. The tone is candid, irreverent, insightful, and self-deprecating, with both host and guest reflecting deeply on their experiences in and out of uniform.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fasting, SERE School, and Resilience (01:15–21:45)

• Autophagy and Fasting: Bill describes what happens at the cellular level during an extended fast, referencing emerging science from Japan on fasting and its potential to combat diseases like Type 2 diabetes and even some cancers (01:33–05:59).

  • “Autophagy is when you're short on food, your body will start eating itself...your body will target cells that are damaged...those cells can be like cancer cells.”
    —Bill Thompson (01:51)

• SERE School Anecdotes: The pair compare their brutal but transformative survival training experiences, including the nuances of different SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) schools, practical skills like picking handcuffs, psychological pressure from deprivation, and moments of gallows humor (06:05–16:44).
• Mental Fortitude: They reflect on enduring adversity, leadership under stress, and how not knowing the “end state” pushes people past their perceived limits.

  • “You find out you’re pretty resilient. I call it bending yourself before the world bends you.”
    —Andy Stumpf (21:01)

• Lessons Translated to Civilian Life: Bill explains how these harsh environments cultivated awareness of personal tells, moral posture under questioning, and grounded leadership.

2. Military Leadership & Humility (23:02–32:06)

• Leadership Training: Bill credits the Army’s Primary Leadership Development Course as transformative, learning accountability and empathy—opposite qualities to his earlier “hard-ass” approach.

  • “If somebody in your squad succeeds, it's their success. If someone in your squad fails, it’s your failure...that course actually prepared me for becoming an NCO.”
    —Bill Thompson (29:21)

• Learning from Mistakes: Emotional and vulnerable stories highlight the sting of public embarrassment as a teaching tool and the struggle to transmit hard-won lessons to the next generation, particularly his son.

3. Parenting & Personal Growth (32:07–38:00)

• Fatherhood Challenges: Both men lament generational disconnects, striving to impart wisdom to their children who are, variously, dutiful, introverted, stubborn, or oppositional.

  • “If I could just get my son, you know, 15, 20% of it...he’d be so dangerous and so capable in five years.”
    —Bill Thompson (32:59)

• Accepting Failures: They discuss balancing “letting kids hit the guardrails,” the differences between raising sons and daughters, and accepting unpredictability in parenting.

4. Spartan Forge, Technology, and Mapping Data (38:00–54:00)

• Innovation in Mapping: Bill details the technical aspects behind Spartan Forge’s new UAV and LIDAR updates, including data sourcing, disaster response support, and why interoperability and data standards matter for first responders (38:03–42:46).

  • “We made like $20,000 of free accounts...it was actual corporate responsibility. We’re actually helping people and not charging a dime.”
    —Bill Thompson (40:52)

• Military Tech Frustrations: The conversation touches on persistent communication challenges, crypto device nightmares (KYK-13, CYZ-10), and the high stakes of losing sensitive gear.

  • “In the era that I joined, [losing] this was probably the fastest way to end your military career...It still makes me sweat.”
    —Andy Stumpf (45:06)

5. Life After Service & Culture Shock (49:31–56:52)

• Transition to Civilian Life: Bill shares the challenge of adapting after “timing his exit right,” missing deployment mission focus but not the administrative bureaucracy that’s “returned” to the military post-GWOT.
• Critiques of Upper Command: The thinly veiled “force expansion” and political distractions among general officers (“white male rage” seminars) are held up as distractions from the military's core mission (53:35).

  • “You're getting ready for a deployment, and that's your sole focus...now it's PowerPoints, the font was wrong on this op order, and you know, command inspections every morning...”
    —Bill Thompson (51:33)

6. Modern Warfare: Drones, Cyber, and Asymmetry (66:01–75:00)

• Drones & Asymmetric Conflict: The Ukraine conflict is used to highlight the dramatic change in warfare from commercial drones, swarms, and the chilling implications for future conflicts.

  • “It’s going to even the playing field...anybody now, you can train anybody on those drones in a few minutes.”
    —Bill Thompson (70:43)

• Cyber Threats and Exploits: They deep-dive on Pegasus spyware, zero-day exploits, phone security, and the arms race between offensive and defensive cyber operations (63:40–98:14).

  • “Any sufficiently talented person with money and time could deconstruct your life [with a phone].”
    —Bill Thompson (63:47)

  • “For most people running a VPN and Signal, you’re probably secure—unless you’re meeting with Putin.”
    —Bill Thompson (95:33)

7. Societal Critique & Pandemic Reaction (76:14–83:36)

• Pandemic Skepticism: Bill admits to having overreacted early in COVID-19 due to his wife’s health, but now is deeply skeptical of the government and scientific communications.

  • “I trusted the scientific establishment...and I was loaning them a lot more credit than I should have.”
    —Bill Thompson (76:18–76:58)

  • “...they certainly earned the right to have trust be just completely liquidated.”
    —Andy Stumpf (80:34)

• Distrust of Institutions: They speculate on intentional misinformation, the profit motive in pharma, and the fragility of public trust.

8. Culture Wars, Free Speech, and Outrage (100:50–111:38)

• Tech & Social Norms: They wonder if phone use will soon become a social faux pas, similar to smoking indoors, and discuss the negative feedback loop of social media on mental health.

  • “Taking out your phone will become a social faux pas...akin to like, smoking in a restaurant.”
    —Bill Thompson (98:35)

• Free Speech & Bad Ideas: Both defend the rights of Americans to burn flags or voice distasteful opinions as central to the First Amendment.

  • “The First Amendment is not about what I get to say...it’s about what other people get to say and do...”
    —Andy Stumpf (105:32)

9. Hunting, Outdoor Life & App Evolution (111:39–129:59)

• Challenges in Hunting and Tech: Bill discusses his upcoming whitetail and hog hunts, recent elk hunts, and the dynamics of producing fair, authentic hunting media. They touch on public perception, the hunting industry’s culture, and learning from failure rather than portraying a “Jesus standard” for hunters.
• Spartan Forge Evolution: Technical plans for new features, use cases beyond hunting (including aviation), and the challenge in creating a tool as functional as possible for a variety of users (84:07–90:02).

  • “My most important role in the company is the product owner—developing...what’s the product going to be?”
    —Bill Thompson (84:54)

10. Closing Reflections: Friendship, Music, and More

• Personal Connections: Stories about mutual friends, Tool concerts, phone-free comedy shows, and misjudging people drive home the importance of humility, compassion, and living fully.
• Favourite Moments: Banter about Snickers, Black Rifle Coffee’s origin tales, and advice for Michael (“go to Australia for women, but stay out of Alice Springs”).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mental Fortitude:
  “It’s a shame when a guy goes through life and he never really pushes himself or finds out what his limits are.”
  —Bill Thompson (20:02)

• On Security:
  “Are there English words for what you just said?”
  —Andy Stumpf about rooting Android phones (92:21)

• On Outrage:
  “Most outrage is completely optional.”
  —Andy Stumpf (108:52)

• On Resilience:
  “I call it bending yourself before the world bends you.”
  —Andy Stumpf (21:01)

• On Leadership:
  “If somebody in your squad has a success, it’s their success. If someone in your squad fails, it’s your failure.”
  —Bill Thompson (29:21)

• On Friendship:
  “I’ve been making up things about him to include founding his company. That’s how it all started.”
  —Andy Stumpf, on trolling Black Rifle Coffee founder Evan Hafer (122:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Fasting & Autophagy: 01:33–05:59
• SERE School, Survival, & Interrogation: 06:05–16:44
• Leadership Failure & Growth Story: 26:14–30:43
• Parenting Challenges: 32:07–37:44
• Spartan Forge & UAV/LIDAR Tech: 38:03–42:46
• Crypto Devices, Gear Panic: 44:01–46:06
• Military Bureaucracy & Command Critique: 49:31–56:52
• Modern Warfare & Drones: 66:01–75:00
• Cyber Security, Pegasus, No-Click Hacks: 63:40–98:14
• Pandemic Perspective Shift: 76:14–83:36
• Hunting, Failure in the Field: 125:42–128:03
• Music, Tool/Comedy Show Stories: 119:43–122:28

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Summary

Episode 411 is a masterclass in wide-ranging, insightful conversation that bridges warfighting, leadership, parental frustration, entrepreneurial hustle, digital paranoia, and cultural critique—with a healthy thread of humor and humility. Andy and Bill navigate tactical realities and philosophical quandaries with the frankness of warriors reflecting on a rapidly morphing world. The episode offers both practical wisdom and rich anecdote while remaining approachable, engaging, and true to the Cleared Hot brand.

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Spartan Forge Note:
Bill continues to offer personal customer support and is passionate about evolving Spartan Forge to serve both hunters and broader mapping needs. Interested listeners are encouraged to try the app and offer honest feedback.

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For the Uninitiated:
Don’t be daunted by the military and tech jargon; the stories and reflections transcend those worlds and are relevant for anyone reflecting on resilience, legacy, and what it means to live a life worth clearing “hot.”

Transcript

[A]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[B]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

West of the smoke. West of the smoke.

[A]

Okay, copy. West of the smoke.

[B]

I'm looking at danger close now.

[A]

Give it to me.

[B]

I mean it.

[A]

You're clear.

[B]

Hot copy. Clear not.

[A]

Why would you do that to yourself?

[B]

There's all kinds of science about how good it is for you.

[A]

I fast every day for a few hours when I'm sleeping.

[B]

That's a fast.

[A]

Intermittently intermittent. What does it do for you? Hold on. Hit record.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Dr. Thompson. No, at a cellular level. What does this 72 hour fast do for you? When did it begin?

[B]

At the cellular level. You? Yeah, I'm not a doctor or anything, so people should all go look this up for themselves. There's a process in your body called autophagy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And autophagy is when you're short on food, your body will start eating itself.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So what? The body and I could mess all this up? Here's how I understand it. The first thing the body will do is target cells that are damaged, probably misaligned, damaged, you know, and those cells can be like cancer cells. Those cells can be obviously fat cells. It goes for right away. Your testosterone generally goes up when you're fasted. And for me personally, the reason I. Well, I do it a. Because wherever I'm doing things where I need to be quick on my feet, I always think better when I'm in a fasted state, especially if my body's in ketosis. It's night and day with how quickly I can process information and think and act on my feet. It's totally a different experience and there's some really good science backing that. And then I've got a lot of type 2 diabetics in my family and there's really good science starting in Japan, but now they're doing it over here. I think you can fast away type 2 diabetes. You just don't eat for a week and your type 2 diabetes will go away.

[A]

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[B]

Maybe maybe longer than a week. Well, as long as you don't get back to a. Again, get people. I'm not a doctor. I feel like I have to qualify all of this stuff. As long as you keep fasting until you get to a healthy body weight or you say in something like ketosis through, you know, low carbohydrate eating after the fast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can repair the, you know, effects of type 2 diabetes. And I also know a woman close to my family, she fasted away her breast cancer. And so lots of science on this. It's emerging. A lot of it was started in Japan. They have, like, clinics out there where you can go and just not eat for a week and. Yeah.

[A]

So, God, my inner voice is tempted to come out on that.

[B]

Just do it. Go.

[A]

Go a clinic where you can go and not eat.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[A]

So I feel like you're paying.

[B]

Just don't eat.

[A]

Lock you in a room.

[B]

Some people might need that.

[A]

Self control and willpower is a real thing.

[B]

I'll go to seer school. Yeah, right.

[A]

Why do you think they fed us in that stew? So they killed. Did you go to Sears school in San Diego?

[B]

I went to. Oops. Excuse me. I went though. The one I went to where I was probably fasted the most was in Spokane.

[A]

Okay. So they. The.

[B]

You guys go to that one too, right?

[A]

Yes. That was a different experience. Yeah, that was totally different interview centric. The traditional Sears school. It was, I think the schoolhouse. Yeah. It was on naval station North Island. And they bus you up into the hills in California. But that's where you do, like the e problem. The one in Spokane. They put us on the back of a moving truck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're gonna insert you. There was no, like, you just got rolled up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a very different one. That was the.

[B]

You probably didn't do the whole. Because at least from my experience, this could be outdated. When I was there, it was like eight or nine weeks. Oh, God. It was two or three weeks of doing, like, traditional seer stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it was two or three weeks of resistance training.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then it was. And I might get the order here wrong, too. But then they were teaching, like, here's how you pick handcuffs. Here's how you get out of a trunk. Here's how you got an awesome one. Defeat restraint. And then there's a whole nother part you can't talk about.

[A]

We didn't go to that at all. This was at the tail end of selection for the East Coast. I want to say we were there. God, this is 20 years in the rearview mirror.

[B]

Yeah, this was like 2010 for me or something like that.

[A]

Yeah, one or two weeks, but before that. And I think a lot of air crews go through this because I was partnered up with an F18 pilot. It's just basic Sears school. And for people listening who are like, what are you guys talking about? Survival, escape, resistance and evasion. And I think it was the Admiral Stockdale School, actually, or the building at north island. Who. He is a. Did he get the Medal of Honor? I feel like.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

I think he did. Yeah. You want to talk about an ability to maintain a positive attitude despite your circumstances. Yeah. And it's for people. It's my wife. Leo has hit me with this the other day. The Stockdale Paradox. The ability to be positive but realistic. It was fascinating, but it was some classroom stuff. You know, the tap code that they invented in Vietnam. Can you imagine? This is what fascinates me. They would teach the unknown tap code to other people in there by just tapping. Yeah. I would at some point, like, will you shut the fuck up?

[B]

I'm trying to say. I'm not going to get this.

[A]

I'm like, why is there a rat problem in here? I'm just. I enjoy the quiet. Leave me alone. But so now problems. Kind of like, it was probably three or four days out in the field. They killed a rabbit, I think, on, like, the third day. Split it up between the class. But you were building shelters.

[B]

Yeah, that stuff, too.

[A]

Basic stuff. Then they put you into Camp Slappy, which, looking back on it, was hilarious, you know. Yeah. But halfway through Camp Slappy, they gave you a little bit of food. And I just was always fascinated what was in there. I know there was some tuna fish in there because that was part I mean, it was almost not palatable. I don't think I actually ate mine because it smelled so bad, but it was very soupy water, I think, undercooked rice and tuna fish.

[B]

I don't even remember getting food in mine. Like, at least during, like that heightened up temple parts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't remember getting food, like, because there was like an instruction part of the course. Yeah. And then there was a part where it turned into a non instruction part. But it wasn't clear what was happening when it happened. I think they said something along, like the guy stopped in the car and said, like, you're now leaving an academic situation. And we were all like, what the hell does that mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then all of a sudden, people with like AK47s are beating the car down and the driver's not there anymore. And. Yeah, it just went, you know, crazy from there. But yeah, they did like the whole, like, cement cell thing.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, 15 hours or whatever that was.

[A]

That was the Camp Slappy for the traditional sear. When I went to the. The other one, it was. I remember it was wooden. It wasn't concrete. It was all indoors. Whereas the Camp Slappy one was outdoors. It was more psychological. It was. Yeah. Again, there are sections of that where you're not supposed to talk about much, but it's also where they captured a lot of our biometrics and stuff like that in case, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, you get rolled up. I'll give away a little portion of the school. You get rolled up, it's changed. It's mostly dudes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're standing there and they take your hood off and there's a dude on each side, and there's a woman standing across from you, and they're like, take. And she says, take all your clothes off. You're like, okay, she's got the best job right there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then they say, turn around, bend over and grab your butt cheeks.

[B]

Sounds like meps now. Yeah.

[A]

Michael's already Googling like, where does this go down?

[B]

How do I sign up? How do I sign up for this school? I.

[A]

You know, because the course ends at some point. And I remember asking one of the instructors, how do you. How could you ever recruit somebody for this job? Because no woman wants to spend their job looking at dudes. Assholes. And he was saying. He said, honestly, most of the time, by the time they turn around, she's already headed out the room.

[B]

She wants nobody. I thought he was gonna be like, it's a particular type of Woman, we're.

[A]

Looking for a particular skill set.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, he was like, yeah, nobody enjoys that to include the participant. But it's psychological. I think people are going to freak out. And at that point, I mean, I was working with absolute savages. And they're just like, hey, hey, you belong. You belong in a cell.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, se school.

[B]

Did they play, like, the crazy music while you're in the cell, too? Oh, it's awful.

[A]

Yeah. But then again, you know, at the traditional sear school, they were talking about how one of the ways of many that people maintain their sanity was ignoring the music. But they learned how to relatively tell time by the cadence. So they wouldn't. So they wouldn't necessarily listen to the music, but they had figured out how long, you know, because they strip you, of course, of. You have no watch, no cell phone, any of that stuff. Obviously, the sun goes up and down, but if you're inside, they could leave the lights on at all the time. And they talked about people, what things can make people lose their mind. But other ones, people would figure out that cadence, like a minute and 30 seconds has gone by, and they would count their days by 90 seconds at a time.

[B]

Never. I'd never been able to do that.

[A]

Have you ever heard the stories about people who designed, like, intricate homes while they were in, like, the Hanoi Hilton and then they got out and actually, like, we're talking brick by brick, board by board, and then they went and built it.

[B]

I've heard of that before. Yeah, that's some Stockholm sound and stuff right there.

[A]

Like, how long would you last if they pulled out just the car battery and the nipple clamps?

[B]

Would you let's the voltage?

[A]

I don't know. What do they say?

[B]

I might enjoy it?

[A]

What do they say? It's the amps that kill you, not the volts.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

I don't know enough about electricity to feel safe.

[B]

I. I don't think I. I mean, I'd like to think I would last a long time, but I don't even.

[A]

Let him hook him up.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

What do you want to know?

[B]

Yeah, I. I'm hoping at that point that anything I have that's intelligence, that's worth value has been changed or they're changing it or fixing it or whatever.

[A]

Because, well, see, your job was different. You might actually know some stuff.

[B]

I wouldn't go that far.

[A]

But, I mean, you were involved in some stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They didn't tell us shit. They'd be like, hey, here's a 10 digit grid. Go do your best. Yeah, so if they would have rolled me up and asked me, I mean, I would have just made stuff up like, okay, do you have a pen and paper? Because here's the nuclear launch codes. It's 5, 6, 7.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

8, 9, ABCD.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I wish it was as cool as people saw it on tv where you're read into everything and you know, all this super secret stuff. I honestly can't think of a single piece of information. There were some programs I was read into, but they exist. If you know what to look for, you can find them. Open source?

[B]

Yep. Pretty much all of them are like that.

[A]

I, I can't think of a piece of information that I had that had any level of strategic value at any time.

[B]

I mean, I probably had some, but I mean you can just choose not to say those. I don't even remember exactly what the resistance posture was that I was trained on. Because there's a few different ways depending on what your job is. Yeah, well, you stay in the circle always. But there was, you know, they would say if it's two weeks in and this has happened and this has happened, like, you know, these two dudes are dead now part of your team and you know, you're up and you just have to give them something. Like here's some stuff you could give or talk about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Um, but I, I really don't, I've. I've forgotten a lot of that. Cause it. You. I don't know if you had the same thing or not, but you'd stay in practice on it. I had to stay in practice on a lot of my stuff. Probably can't say much more than that, but it was.

[A]

I did my best to forget everything they taught me the day after I left.

[B]

I kept the handcuffs and did the handcuff stuff for a while. I'm pretty good at that. Still, the picking? Yeah, the picking. Like with the, you know, it's a.

[A]

Relatively simple lock, right?

[B]

Depends. There's ones that are more difficult than other ones. Like if they're Smith and Wesson's, that's pretty simple.

[A]

But the kind of dude who has like a cufflink pick and. No, no, you know they're out there.

[B]

No, I know they're out there, but then they weren't trained. If they're carrying that, you just need.

[A]

The gear, you don't have to use it.

[B]

Yeah. But then, you know, we get into what's your cover for action for carrying this pick if you're just so and so Innocuous Service member.

[A]

My teeth.

[B]

89 handcuff picture.

[A]

You got to be able to think on your feet. Yeah, that would be another good drill we could do for you, Michael.

[B]

What, picking handcuffs?

[A]

Yeah. I'll put you in, like, a tank that's slowly filling up with water. And if you don't, he just dies.

[B]

Yeah. Defeat restraints.

[A]

Yeah, Sounds great. Yeah, let's do it. We can start with rope. You can Houdini it, and then we'll go. We'll upgrade to, like, a shitty handcuff. I don't like this idea as much.

[B]

As the other ones.

[A]

His mom was at the coffee shop the other day. She heard us talking about how I want to take him BASE jumping. She was not a fan. She had feedback on the episode.

[B]

But you're doing it, right?

[A]

100%.

[B]

Oh, I would apply, apparently. I would 100% do that.

[A]

I don't. I don't even care about the BASE jump. I just want him to climb over the rail so I can have a chat with him about what he's thinking about. As we're both hanging on the other.

[B]

Side of a bridge, the urine will tell you all.

[A]

Sometimes there is a little P ring.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes a few little drops come out.

[B]

I would be disappointed if there wasn't.

[A]

Wear dark clothing. That's the secret to bass drone.

[B]

I think Michael was a psycho. If he just got for the first time, was like, let's go.

[A]

I've actually seen it.

[B]

And you do wonder, and you're just not like, no. No hesitancy whatsoever. They're just like, let's go.

[A]

People have really weird and bizarre reactions to stress. Some people become autonomous robots. I've seen other people shaking like a dog in a razor blade.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And probably everything in between.

[B]

Yeah. So did you do. Did you do, like, any of the high risk officer courses or high risk threat or any of those types of things? Like the.

[A]

Why would I go through a high risk officer course? I was a fake officer.

[B]

Well, no, but, I mean, you know, like.

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, okay. Have you heard of that course? Probably won't be very useful to talk about if you haven't heard of it, but it's just like.

[A]

No, but I feel like the guys who went over and were doing ASO type stuff were probably the ones who would do that.

[B]

Yeah, they would be the ones who would do that. Yeah.

[A]

I never touched that world.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, those were interesting courses too. It's just like a hyperbolic version of Seer where the expectation is you're going to get caught or you're going to get pulled into secondary in an airport or you're going to be under scrutiny while you're in a, you know, a theater.

[A]

Is there a benefit in the civilian world to those courses when from like, maybe just a job interview perspective or communication skills, or is it very specific to somebody trying to elicit information from you?

[B]

I mean, it's specific to really hammering home the tenets of resistance, which, you know some things about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then they kind of up the ante and up the stakes. And then, you know, you do like a much longer, like, evasion portion is far longer. Like, you know, I think I did like 20 some miles.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And you're under a timeline. And again, I think I said this last time I was here, I never got like the briefing from the military where you're like, they were like, here's the stuff you can talk about. Here's the stuff you can talk about.

[A]

I always just go broad just to stay safe.

[B]

Yeah. So it was just all of the things that you learned there, but the pressure cooker was turned up. Yeah. And then, you know, do you think.

[A]

It helps you in the civilian world, those courses, though, when it comes to, again, just sitting down and talking with people or being able to hold a conversation?

[B]

Yeah, I think it helps. I think it helps you recognize when you're detracting during, when you're having a conversation where you're obviously trying to withhold something and you're identifying that in yourself, like your telltale time. Yes. Your telltale signs, or when you get caught up on your own words or you're, you're trying to think about what to say, it helps with prep. I think the thing out of all of those, like. And again, I said this last time, but I feel in a special amount of pressure now to say it. I was never a long tabber. I was never a Ranger. I was never the cool guy. I was a nerd for cool guys and I was a nerd for, you know, regular guys for a long time. And I would say, like, any course you'll get told you're going to do something crazy or, or in one case, you're, you're, you're not told when it's ending. You're just told you got to go, yeah, this way for a long time. And you think, like, I'm never going to make it through this. And then you make it through those things and you're like, like any tough course, right?

[A]

Like, yeah, it's tougher when they don't tell you the end state, though. That's an easier way to break people.

[B]

It is. And. But I think what it did for me at least was. And again, like, I would. I would say this is. This is like. Compared to the other courses the military officers offers being, you know, something like, you know, Delta selection or something like that, which is probably like on that. Or the A plus of this is gonna suck. I would say those courses are probably like a C plus, but. Or a B minus, but they're different, though.

[A]

Like, what you're talking about is more physiological or psychological than physiological.

[B]

Yeah, but it definitely. I think. I don't remember who said it, but someone said something along lines of, it's a shame when a guy goes through life and he never really pushes himself or finds out what his. What his limits are. You definitely get to get near some limits or, you know, it's not a limit if you exceed it. But you know what I'm saying, like, you. You can push yourself. You find out that you can push yourself a lot farther than you thought you could and still maintain some mental composition while you're doing it. Because, you know, right after you get swallowed up and then now you're being interrogated and you haven't eaten in a few days and you're. And you're really hazy about everything and you really. Then that it becomes actually like, I need to rely on the training and. Because that's all I've got right now. So that type of stuff probably taught me that more than anything out of it. And just, you know, I'd like to say there's some crazy pearl of wisdom I could give you other than that. And there's really not.

[A]

I call it bending yourself before the world bends. You. You find out you're pretty resilient.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I remember at that course, you know, you're. There's kind of two paths. You can just tell the truth up front, or you can just lie about everything. And like, this is who I am. And so. And so. And this is what I'm doing here. They brought another member. I think I went the. The second path where I was just making shit up. And I mean, you know, they gave us some backstory which I can't even begin to remember before we got in the back of the U Haul truck, which should have been a massive ticker tape parade of red flags that something was about to happen. And so I think I had stuck with this story and I'm just bullshitting my ass off and making stuff up. And they bring in another Member of my class, I remember the guy said to me, he goes, don't say a fucking word. So they bring the other guy and they're like, who is this? And they're like, that's Andy's thump. He's part of my class. I'm like, God damn it.

[B]

Right away.

[A]

The fuck, man? I thought we were in this together. Yeah, it was hilarious. I mean, they just completely parsed apart anything that I was saying. And then the cool thing is that it was. There's a lot of classroom stuff where they would do, I'll call them interviews. But you're in this fishbowl.

[B]

Yeah, the fishbowling. Yeah.

[A]

And you're trying to take it serious, but like your entire class, you know, laughing at you. Well, they're laughing at you because you're such an idiot and you're deviating from what they are teaching you. So you're just getting pegged into a corner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I like, it's really hard to take anything serious when you can hear through the glass your classmates fucking laughing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, we did that too. And the other thing too was for the fish bowling. And maybe they added this later, but they locked you up for a significant amount of time before the fishbowling.

[A]

Oh, they did not do.

[B]

So you were. You were pretty tired, pretty hungry, and then you got fishbowl. And then, you know, then everybody gets to play Monday morning quarterback, which is fun.

[A]

What do you think the most valuable course you went to while you were in the military that helped you in civilian life thus far?

[B]

Oh, man, I've never been asked that question.

[A]

I haven't thought about it that much either.

[B]

The most valuable course that I went to in the military that prepared me.

[A]

For like, maybe the broadest Venn diagram overlap, where it helped you with your military skills. But surprisingly or not surprisingly, has also transcended that role and has helped you in the civilian world.

[B]

I mean, definitely that high risk officers course would be one of them. Again, just from the perspective of understanding some limits about yourself, understanding what kind of person you are when you're tired and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, down and down and out. But I would say this isn't going to be the answer people want to hear. But we have in the army, like, what's called. Well, I don't know what it's called now. It's changed name like three or four times. But they had like pldc, Primary Leadership Development Course. That was when you became an E5. You went to that course. I was a really. I think I Said this last time, so I'll brush over it quickly. But I was a really poor enlisted soldier in that I had no tact. And I did learn a lot in that course. Cause it's. I think it was a month long, which like most military courses probably needed to be 11 days or 12 days to get everything in. But that I had some pretty good small group leaders in that one. Like guys. One guy I actually stayed in contact with that, you know, taught me a lot about leadership and kind of helped me. That school actually prepared me for becoming an nco. But I think it was, you know, I think most guys would say I went to that course and it was BS or I didn't learn anything. But I had a pretty good small group leader. A guy stayed in contact with an NCO who I thought was really squared away and really kind of helped me understand tact and what leadership means. Even when I was an nco, I was a crappy leader in that. Like, I just, especially when I was younger, I was really disagreeable, didn't have a lot of time for other people's problems. I thought the military was super simple and I had a rubric for everything and I pounded people over the head with. It just wasn't a good. It wasn't well received by anyone ever. I've got some pretty funny stories about that actually. Well, I'll tell one. Here's a good illustration. Here's a good illustration of this. And I'm sure somebody that I served with will watch this podcast and be like, yeah, I was there when this happened. So. And I was waiting for my clearance. I had to get an extra level of clearance that I didn't have when I got to this job. And while I was waiting for the investigation, like they had to fly people out, do the investigation, all that stuff. But it was another level on top of the clearance that I already had. And I couldn't work in the job that I was supposed to be in until there was no interim status. They weren't going to let me sit in there. Yeah, there it was just like, you have to be fully cleared in order to do this job. So I was doing correspondence, what we call the S1 shop in the Army. Admin Admin. And I got into being the awards guy. So I processed all the six three eights, all the awards. I was like 20 or something like that, or 21. And it was my job when we were doing the award ceremonies to get everyone lined up, get all the little like binder clips on the awards so they could put stuff on, get everything. Citation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tell the colonel, like, here's what so and so did.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

You know, all of that type of stuff. So he had something to say when he went on stage. And at this time, I was that guy, like, you're messed up, you're fat, your boots look like crap, your uniform's not pressed, you're late all the time. You're a piece of strong. And just always. I was so bad, dude. I can't tell you how bad I was. And. And so we were doing this award ceremony, and I was being told that I was getting my clearance, I was gonna be leaving this place, and that they're putting me in for an award for my time that I was spending doing the paperwork. Yes.

[A]

So this all checks out so far.

[B]

One thing I knew was when someone's gonna get an award who's, like, on the adjutant's staff or who had worked in the S1 shop, they wouldn't tell that guy, like, so and so is getting award. So we're keep it from him. Colonel will call him up, talk about great things, and it'll be a surprise. So I'm sitting in the. In the theater, and I'm sitting next to my buddy Coral, who is, you know, pretty much in the same place I was at that point. Like, on paper, we were great soldiers. We went to boards. Yes, sir. No, sir. Three bags full. Everyone hated us. And I thought I heard the adjutant say my name. And we're in a post theater, and it's a battalion, so there's probably a thousand or so people in there, or maybe 400. It was actually a provisional battalion, so I think it's a little smaller, but. And I was like, hey, dude, did you just say my name? And he's like, I don't know. And I was like, I think he said my name. He's like, well, you better run up there, because if they said your name and you're not up there, like, they're gonna fuck you up. Sorry. I'm cool to swear, right? Of course. Right.

[A]

I checked.

[B]

I know. I just feel weird swearing on podcasts, so.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know. So I run up there, and I'm like, yeah, I'm getting my award. I'm going to my. My job or whatever. I'm super excited. And everyone's in the crowd. 70% of them don't like me. They don't like having to deal with me. They don't like seeing me. Because in a military intelligence unit, a lot of people are overweight a lot of people are not what you would call your premier looking soldiers.

[A]

Meal Team six.

[B]

Meal Team six.

[A]

And seals.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I'm setting up there. They're going down the line, and the battalion commander and the sergeant major are mic'd up and they get to me.

[A]

Okay, so at least you're not standing up there alone.

[B]

No, there's a whole line of people, and I was the last guy. Okay. So I'm like, standing up there at a position of attention, like, waiting for my award, beaming, face, like, so excited. I had no ribbons or medals to speak of at this time. And over the, like, the microphone, you can hear the sergeant major, like, did you call Thompson? The battalion commander's like, I didn't call Thompson. And then the guy, the adjunct's name was Sam. He's like, sam, did you call Thompson? And I'm sweating. Like, I feel the sweat now. He's like, I didn't call Thompson. And then sergeant major's like, what kind of asshole is this kid? And, like, looks at me, he's like, why are you up here? And I'm like, I thought I was getting award. And the whole place broke out in laughter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And laughed for probably 10 minutes. Like, it didn't stop.

[A]

Like, this was a core memory.

[B]

Yeah. This is comeuppance for me is what it was. And I just. I think I actually went home and like, sobbed. I was so upset. Right. Like, I was just young, impressionable soldier, joined at 17, didn't know crap about the world. And like, for all the times people, I'd poke people in the eyes like I was getting it back in spades. Yeah. And anyway, shortly after that, I went to PLDC and I knew I needed to grow. I knew if I was one thing, I knew. I knew that I needed to become a better soldier in order to become an nco or at least be an effective NCO or a good one. And I actually learned, like, what proper leadership looks like, what accountability looks like, protecting your guys. You know, if. If somebody, if you're. If somebody in your squad has a success, it's their success. If someone in your squad fails, it's your failure. If I point a finger at you, I got three pointed back at myself. Just all of those, like, kind of core tenets of leadership. So. And that was pretty early in my career, but it also was eye opening for me because then I realized it's kind of like. You ever sing a song lyric wrong? A lot of times, then you hear or read the lyrics and you're like, that's what that lyric says. Yeah. That was kind of my also, like, that's what leadership is. Like, I finally figured it out. So the scales kind of fell away. And then my. My. I would say my military career at that point. Oriented in a much better direction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than it was before that. Because I wasn't going anywhere before that.

[A]

So that's good. That.

[B]

Yeah, it was good. It was good.

[A]

It's amazing how things can hurt that much from so long.

[B]

Oh, man. It's still. I still get, like, kind of anxious talking about it today because it was so funny.

[A]

Core memories.

[B]

Oh. I would laugh. I mean, I would laugh at myself so hard. I was just talking to my son about the morning. The morning we were driving. I was going to go drop him off and I was telling him about, like, if I could go back. And like, I just need you to listen to like 15% of what I say, 20% of what I say. If you can take 20% of what I'm telling you right now, you will be so dangerous and so capable in five years. And he's just kind of. He doesn't say it, but he's like, you're. You're an idiot, dad.

[A]

You and I would say the same thing if we were in that spot. I agree with you. I try so hard to pour the lessons learned from my mistakes into my kids.

[B]

I think it's our biggest responsibility as fathers.

[A]

I think they wear. They have invented a Teflon umbrella.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they just are fucking about through life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I now I'm of the thought of I can do the best I can to probably keep him out of jail and then anything beyond that. I guess you have to hit the guardrails from time to time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're not gonna listen to dad. Right. I mean, it's just we are uncool pearls though.

[A]

I have galactically messed up in every aspect.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Why not learn from me?

[B]

Yeah. And that's what I tell him all the time. Like, I've if name an aspect of interpersonal relationship dynamics. I have messed it up in spades. And I've only in the past maybe seven years or so. I wouldn't say figured it out, but I've reduced entropy to a level to where my life is tolerable because I was really. Even through my military, even through the first 10 years of my military career, constantly cutting corners. Not cutting corners in like a shitbag way, but cutting corners in like, I'm just trying to get home or I'm trying to do this, trying to do that. Like just, you know, minimum amount of effort. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So just. If I could just get my son, you know, 15, 20 of it. My daughters are all perfect, which is. And I don't say. I think most guys say that, like their daughters are pretty good because women mature faster or at least I think they're pretty good. It could be subjective. I have an 18 year old, I have a 14 year old and a 7 year old.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They're just all pretty good kids. They listen in school, they get good grades. If I tell them to do something, they do it. My son was. Is just like a chip off the old block. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just doesn't want. Object. Yeah. Yes. And he's smart, he's capable, he loves talking about, like, deep subjects. And when I can get him on those tangents, we. I really enjoy spending time with him, but 95 of the time, dad's an idiot. Like, anything I can learn, you know, my biggest mistake with him was probably giving him a phone before 17 or 16.

[A]

Well, he would have had access to one anyway. I have some friends who have tried to restrict all electronics from their kids. If they have a friend or social circle, they're on electronics.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to do it with my other ones. I did it pretty successfully with my oldest, but, you know, it's just again, I feel like I'm in a therapy session right now. But it's just however much I can help him avoid all of the pitfalls that. That either ruined relationships along the way, almost sacrificed my military career for cutting a corner, or covering for a guy who sold some night vision goggles, or all these dumb mistakes that I've made that have just put me in, you know, positions where if I had just, you know, stuck with the truth, but whilst not simultaneously burning other people down, I'd have been a lot better off.

[A]

Do you think we'll ever be cool to them again? Is it a natural bell curve?

[B]

I think I'm getting there with my oldest. Your daughter? Yeah, my oldest is like starting to ask me things and I think she's. Again, I've talked to other dads who have daughters, are a little bit older, and they all seem to think it was like more like 22, 23, 24. The daughters start to come back around. All right, she's a little bit earlier, but I think it's just more of a testament to her maturity than it is my fathering.

[A]

My oldest son turns 22 in October. My middle son is 20. I can't even get my middle son to return my phone call.

[B]

Me neither. I could call mine right now if it was a million dollars. If I had to call someone who's not going to answer, I'm calling my son. Yeah, 100%.

[A]

But if he needs anything, I'll get 15 text messages.

[B]

Why aren't you answering?

[A]

17 missed calls, question mark. My daughter does that, too. God help me if I don't answer the velocity with which she's able to redial.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

And I share my location with her on Life360.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She knows I'm at the studio, and she knows what I do.

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

And she'll just burn it down. And then when I answer, she'll say, oh, what are you up to?

[B]

That's awesome. Yeah.

[A]

And then my oldest man. My kids are so. It's so fascinating. They share the same mix of DNA between my ex and I. And what a wildly different expression of the same mix of DNA. My oldest man. I still haven't cracked the nut to figure him out. Just quiet, you know, maybe a little bit more introverted if you get him going on something he's excited about. He loves talking about it, but he could sit there. He's the dude who would be so comfortable just saying nothing. To the point. You wonder whether or not he has human skin as a cape. Like, in his closet.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, those are good. Those are. I mean, I like those guys.

[A]

I kind of do, too. My wife is. Her cup is just filled with excessive social interaction. My words, not hers. I would describe any more than two people. Excessive social interaction. Mine is not.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, we have. Man, she wants to go do stuff that I don't. Do not want to do. Michael's seen it happen.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. My son's just super disagreeable and just, you know, Dad's an idiot.

[A]

Almost. Whatever position you take, I mean, I.

[B]

Kind of like it in a way. I hope he doesn't. He won't listen to this podcast. Who am I kidding? I kind of like it in a way because, you know, if there's one thing my son won't be, at least I can say he's never gonna be like a sheep or like a. Yeah, that's true. And I say that in the negative. I don't mean sheep, like, as in, like, you know. Yeah, but, you know, he's not gonna be, you know, drinking the Kool Aid or. He disagrees with most people. He thinks he has things figured out. There's elements that. That. Of that. That I. I'm fine with. Like, I'll see other kids where they're just like, you know, whatever I'm told is gospel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's probably positives to that, too. But my oldest is super dutiful. She's always on time. She's, you know, in college right now. I called her on like, Friday night, or. No, I was going to go get her on a Friday night, and I'm like, what are you doing? She's like, studying Saturday night. Studying. But I also worry for her. Right. Because I'm like, hey, you know, get out there and do some stuff.

[A]

You know, also not. Not that crazy of stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Life's gonna sort it all.

[B]

Yeah, it will.

[A]

For the ones who follow every direction and those that don't, like, life's got something for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's one thing. I realized that the wood chipper of. Of life, or another way that I put it, the dildo of consequences often arrives unlubed. It's. It's coming for both.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff.

[A]

Yeah, man. What else is going on in the world? What's new with Spartan Forge?

[B]

We dropped that massive UAV update. You know, are you guys.

[A]

How do you. I was curious about this. The UAV stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you directly contract out with UAV people or are there databases of that stuff that you can kind of buy into? I'm just.

[B]

It's both.

[A]

Yeah. I have a bunch of questions about LiDAR too.

[B]

Curious how you guys get that stuff in one instance. In one instance, you throw into a pot with other people who have similar information needs and then they fly. Yeah. And you can kind of direct that some. Although we're one of the smaller contributors, they don't direct it as much as some of the larger ones. There's other ones where they have a repository of data.

[A]

Is it an actual UAV or do they just have cameras on the flights?

[B]

We. So some people are flying UAVs and we are working right now on getting that information hosted inside of the application. That's actually something we're working on currently. But these are actually these. That was. That's just a moniker, a marketing term. It's actually airplanes, like King Airs.

[A]

Okay. Is lidar the same thing? Different sensor, but it's kind of.

[B]

So lidar is two sources. LIDAR is. We have a commercial relationship with companies that use it for, like, mining, use it for logging, deforestation stuff. And then the other source is state and federal, like USGS type of Repositories where they host the data. And you know, for about two years it was me calling around and asking for it and sending them hard drives and then putting the data on and sending it back and.

[A]

But it's captured in kind of the same way. Civilian aircraft?

[B]

Yeah, civilian air aircraft, LIDAR sensor on it. And now the ones that are, that we deal with, one of the companies flies both at the same time.

[A]

Do they just do a checkerboard up there or like a. Just back and forth flight plan?

[B]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean they go off of demand. Yeah. So obviously they'll start on populated places first and then they'll go from there to like, oh, there's a logging operation and this company needs 5 centimeter imagery for all of this area. They want to know what types of trees are where, down to the stump and all of that type of thing. Or there's a mining operation. Then there's other ones where there's like a flood and they want to have the LIDAR data taken post flood and before flood to look at the delta and see what's changed. And we actually worked with some companies during North Carolina, during the flooding that they had there where we were spinning them up free apps and hosting their data for them. And then they were able to. They didn't have it on mobile devices. There was like one guy who had ArcGIS program running on his laptop and they would all go to him and then he or someone in that organization found out about us and said, wow, they're like doing all this through the mobile. And so we made them all like tons of free accounts. I think we made like 15 or $20,000 of free accounts during that thing.

[A]

I've talked with some people who have responded to natural disasters in variety of capacities. Just pulling up in a vehicle. How can I help private aviation people who pulled in kind of the same thing. Hey, how can I help? It's pretty shocking, but I guess not surprising. There is not a standard template that they work from. It's very ad hoc when people get together and I was having the conversation, shit, it was last week, aviation guy and he was asking, you know, the search and rescue guys up here, are they working in degrees, minute seconds, Are they working mgrs, which I know listeners, those are just different coordinate, different types of coordinate. One being latitude, longitude, the other one. MGRS means military grid reference system. It's what we use down to, you know, 1 meter accuracy. But if you're on the radio talking to somebody who works lat long and you're Spitting mgrs. They're gonna look at you like you have a dick growing out of your forehead. It's amazing to me that in the US there isn't a standard template for catastrophic events and reactions like that.

[B]

Yeah, there's still not. And how is that possible? I don't know. It was crazy to me that they didn't have this available to people on a mobile application that were first responders, like literally responding to pulling someone out of their house during a flood. And they have no.

[A]

They're Google Earthing or they're using Google Maps or they're using Apple Maps or they're using Onyx or like all the.

[B]

And it's all way too old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. Or it's not. It doesn't, it doesn't line up. It's. It's cumbersome to get between different maps on there. So. I mean, that was really a feather in my hat. When you talk, you know, doing business, call college courses on business, you're always talked about like corporate social responsibility. That to me was like actual corporate responsibility. Like we're actually helping people and we're not charging a dime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's saving people's lives or it's getting people out of a bad position.

[A]

I just, I don't understand why at least at a federal level, at least put it out there. Like, hey, if you're going to be involved in a federal level response, we're enrolling mgrs or lat long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's just start that basic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, no, by the way, here's that probably WGS84. Like, here's the map to Adam we're gonna go off of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not something obscure because otherwise everybody's out there legitimately trying to do their best, but they're like blind people stumbling their way through a room.

[B]

Yeah. Or I mean, what happened to us in the military? I don't know. Maybe not with you guys. You guys probably had more record pace plans than we did. But you know, we'd get in there, we'd get into somewhere and be like, well, these guys are only up on satcom. And it's like, well, we're doing line of sight. Or these guys have iridiums. And it's like, I don't have an iridium. You know, what's the fire's net on? How are we doing this? So, I mean, it got better towards the end of the war, but there was definitely, you know, some of the most elite units in the military were still having a problem coordinating battle space deconfliction ware friendlies.

[A]

You know, the most technologically advanced military in the world. Hey, are those our guys or bad guys over there?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

It's not a great feeling.

[B]

And then you're listening. What does that sound like? Sounds like an ak.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Meanwhile, Andy just picked up an ak. Oh, God. Yeah.

[A]

Or people go out with the wrong crypto or the.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah.

[A]

Or they don't roll it when they're supposed to. Or somebody rolls the crypto back, and then you're forward with the previous crypto. So you're trying to talk on the right freak, but you can't get. It's awesome.

[B]

Yeah, it's. And then you're coordinating a military operation, which, by the way, is still gonna go down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No matter what you do.

[A]

I think the closest I've ever gotten to a panic attack is when I thought that I had lost a kick 13.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that's a sensitive item.

[A]

Yeah. It's supposed to be around your neck in a. With a piece of 550 cord, which let me tell you, beyond that evolution. It certainly was, because I figured, why not put it in the rucksack? What could happen?

[B]

What could happen?

[A]

Michael, pull up an image of a Kyk 13. This fucking thing will induce panic to anybody. That had to work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or the ways that you checked it with the little light flashing or how you saw it.

[B]

Oh, God, I hate that box. I've never experienced it. The third one over, Michael. The third one.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

I'm actually having post traumatic stress right now, and I've.

[A]

For those of you who are joining us on audio, in the era that I joined, this was probably the fastest way to end your military career. Lose one of these bad boys. My God. Yeah. The Z button. Yep. Check and off.

[B]

A lot of guys just turned off the podcast.

[A]

That's fine. It still makes me sweat the day that I thought I had lost one of these things. Because you can carry enough crypto information in there. You got six different versions. Yep. You can zero this thing, all sorts of stuff. And there it is right on the right hand side as we're looking at the old 550 cord loop that needs to go around your neck.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Putting that in a rucksack and thinking you had just lost the entire theater's worth of active crypto.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Making someone's day horrible when that happens too.

[A]

And then I think it got worse. Michael, see if you can. I think it's the Cyz 10.

[B]

Yeah. Crazy 10.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This did what made this worse is I think it just held more crypto.

[B]

Yeah, it was a lot more.

[A]

And didn't it also keep a record of all your mistakes? Like, every button push, it logged.

[B]

Or at least the ones that I remember. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

This is the second fastest way to lose your career. So this was the evolution, Michael. We started with the green box, and I was no longer a comm guy by the time these things came out. But, yeah, I remember them saying, you need to know what you're doing because it keeps a record of every button push.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We. We even had even crazier ones after that, because when I deployed. Well, a couple places that I deployed, we would take a whole C band or KU band satellite dish with us, really? Which was like, you know, a ten foot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it had a. I'm trying to remember the encryption device, but it was a large box, and the large box allowed you comms on, you know, red side, nsa, net, J, wix, all of the classified ones. And this thing, you know, held everything. And it was for those, you know, out in the middle of nowhere, setting up a T skiff on some island in the southern Philippines or on a mountain in, you know, Afghanistan or Iraq. And that thing had everything. So you had, like, thermite strapped on.

[A]

It at all times?

[B]

Yeah, just. Well, it was in a case right next to it, like a. Like a. Like a locked. What do you call? Pelican case?

[A]

Just in case.

[B]

Yeah. And they're like, you know, you do the training. Like, if the base gets overrun, your job's not to run with everyone else. Your job is to make sure that thermite gets on all of these things, and then you can run.

[A]

Man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Com guy was awesome. But the crypto, the response of that was not the best part.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I still remember to this day, that sense of absolute dread. It was, in fact, in the rucksack, it had worked its way under some clothing that I also had in there.

[B]

The military had a way of instilling all kinds of. But those are pretty reasonable fears.

[A]

Yeah, they would make you, like, lose.

[B]

Sleep over your blank firing adapter.

[A]

You'd be like, bfa.

[B]

I don't know where my BFA is. And you're like, we got formation in the morning. Like, I. It was in my bag. It's not there anymore. You're screwed, dude. Like, you're going to. You're done.

[A]

We think those things cost, like, several cents.

[B]

17 cents, 14 cents, something like that.

[A]

A little square adapter with A twist on.

[B]

Yeah, just so you can fire your blanks during like Erie exercises or something like that.

[A]

How many? God, we would hear about these all the time though. People bringing live ammo to blank ranges. Just a single round working its way into a magazine. Yeah, we took it seriously. You'd have all your mags out, flashlights from the senior leadership, looking in all your pouches anytime we did a switch from blank to live.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, man, that's.

[B]

Yeah, that'll get you puckered. Yeah.

[A]

That and a crippling fear of being late. That's what the military will give you for the rest of your life for sure.

[B]

Being late. Although I've. I've escaped that fear.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't bother me as much anymore. I just try to show up on time now.

[A]

How did you work your way through?

[B]

If I wasn't 10, laziness. If it wasn't 10 minutes, if I wasn't 10 minutes early. @ one point I was sweating. Horrible, right? And now it's like I was on a meeting. One of my lawyers in my company is an ex Marine Corps guy. And I showed up right on time in a meeting. He was something along lines like, chief, I'm surprised. Like he's old military Marine guy. He's, you know, he was, he's 10 minutes early for every call we do.

[A]

Once a Marine, always.

[B]

He has not stopped that progression at all. And, and I showed up right on time and I was like, yeah, I was a warrant officer. I've been retired now for like four or five years. Yeah, I'm going to be on time.

[A]

How do you like being out?

[B]

I love it. I mean, I just, I, I mean I kind of get a little bit like, miss the guys, miss mission, miss the, you know, the, the. All the horrible stuff that became fun in the post hoc, in the final analysis, kind of miss that stuff. But I just, I really lucked out in my military career that I didn't like, you know, get kicked out earlier or something like that for something stupid. Not that I was like a horrible guy or anything like that, but when you are the person that ostensibly has all the right answers, people are always looking to poke you in the eye. When I was younger, and then as I got older, it got better, but you know, the. I wouldn't have been able to. I'll say it this way, I wouldn't have been able to do 20 years in a cold war army or, or a post war army.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I was watching that happen as I was getting out and I was getting in trouble or people were talking to me like, hey, Chief, you can't say that in a briefing. Or you can't do the X, Y or Z. And you know, stuff that you just didn't care about. Like you're getting ready for a deployment. That's your sole focus. Like these are the things you need to do to get out the door. And then you get out the door and you know, I'm talking to friends who are still in, guys I still talk with every once in a while and they're like, we're definitely returning to PowerPoints. And the font was wrong on this op order. And you know that. Yeah. You know, Middleman, you have a force that's grown exponentially. Right. Like over adding fourth battalions or whatever it is. And now you're getting out of war and they haven't really constricted the force yet. Or maybe there's a plan to. Or they really haven't yet. So now you've got a bunch of E7 to E9s, W2s to W4s and O3s to O6s that are looking for work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they can create OER bullets by making people do more stuff like, you know, command inspections every morning or something like that.

[A]

That's what I'm talking about.

[B]

You know, just a lot more bureaucracy's gotten in and I just know that I wouldn't have survived then. Like I got away with a lot of. Even when I was in positions where I wasn't wearing a uniform, like for the last 10 years of my military career, I didn't wear a uniform and didn't have to shave, all of that type of thing. And I still managed to piss people off, you know, every once in a while. And I just know if I had been in during the Cold War time, it wouldn't have boded well for me. You know, I was reliable because I was willing to deploy, I was willing to go out and do things. I didn't care really. I was pretty. I was fairly good at the job and that worked for me. And as the work tailed off, I was like, I. I've pretty much timed this as well as I can.

[A]

What do you think? A couple people have asked me about this one recently. Hegses. Hegseth. Lopping some heads. Like head of a. I'm not sure where a naval special warfare, but I believe it was an admiral or it might have been a captain getting ready to get their star was just chopped in nsw. But some higher ranking people are getting, getting lopped off.

[B]

I mean, if it's. There's a lot of context on that question. Yeah.

[A]

I don't actually know the reasons for each of them, but I do know that the military is very top heavy.

[B]

I generally agree with reducing the size of the upper echelons of the military.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that if you have too many chiefs, not enough Indians, work doesn't get done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I genuinely or generally agree with that. That thought that we need to reduce the size of the upper ranks. And you know, I won't mention by name, but like, I watched a lot of three and four star generals doing stuff first, you know, from basically 2010 to like 2021, where I was like, what are they talking about? Like, what are we doing right now? Like, just getting into all kinds of craziness with, you know, understanding white male rage was a talking point I remember from an officer. Yeah. White male rage. And I was just like, is this.

[A]

An issue that I'm not aware of?

[B]

It was an issue when I was in.

[A]

Apparently in the Army.

[B]

In the army. Yeah. Or like people were. I'll put it this way. I remember people being prescribed. Officers being prescribed to read books about the problem with like white males and.

[A]

Of which there are many. But I think that problem exists across different. The entire male spectrum.

[B]

Yeah. But also, again, I, I try, I try to look at things with an engineering mindset and I'm like, do you mean like the white males that are sustaining like 60% of the combat casualties, are they the problem? Like, if we're going to play this game. Yeah. Where we're looking at skin, which I hate. I abhor the game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think there's more difference within genders than there is between genders. In other words, if I, if you give me four men of different skin colors, tones, whatever you want to call it from different places, they're going to have much more in common than four women on the, on the opposite side of the spectrum. In other words, myself and another black dude are going to be able to gel and get along and see things a lot more similarly than some white female that grew up in North Dakota down the road from me. So what I. Why I say that is it's not a useful way to classify people by skin color, skin type. Not that if it were useful, then maybe you could do it. It's not generally useful because people are individuals. You can talk culturally. Yeah. About how certain cultures value certain things, but when you join the military, you get culture stripped away. You're just a soldier now. So when that stuff started happening. I was like, what? We're still in the middle of war here, boys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, let's save the white male rage thing for, you know, 1998.

[A]

Well, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be forgotten that about 30 of what the military does is not useful in general.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So, you know, you strip that off the top.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That. That does remind me a lot, though. I'm glad I got to see the pre 911 military, because at some point, I knew that's what it was going to return to. It doesn't surprise me that they're having some of those issues, because absent an enemy, you're just gonna fight yourself or each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which sucks, but it is the reality of it.

[B]

Yep. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. We either timed it really well or really poorly, depending on the optic.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, obviously there. Yeah. I just. I knew I wouldn't have any place. And it's not because I'm an old war horse or whatever. It's just because I work with war horses. I supported them. I know what that one looks like. But I fit well in doing nerd work for those guys and excelled in that capacity and was given a lot of liberal posture otherwise, in my military career that I quite enjoyed. Like, I wanted to do a course. It didn't matter what esoteric course I wanted to do from, like, 2010 until I retired, if I was like, hey, I'm gonna go learn JavaScript and I need it because X, Y, and Z, like, all right, go do it. And I go off to, you know, wherever. Johns Hopkins or someplace like that. And I was. Yeah, we did. Well, I. I probably can't talk exactly about all the ST that we did with them, but we did some cool stuff with, like, we'd blow up a car, and we needed to be able to pull data from the onboard PC, so you guys would go and blow a car up or whatever.

[A]

Not us.

[B]

Somebody like you. Someone who looked a lot like you.

[A]

Look like an idiot monkey with a machine gun. Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, big guys would do bad damage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it was time for the nerd to say, where has this car been for the last three months?

[A]

Well, you could have told us, like, don't shoot the center console.

[B]

Well, if you can avoid it, that'd be nice.

[A]

That's not gonna.

[B]

One in the block, please. Stay away from the dashboard if you can.

[A]

Have you ever seen those videos of the door gunners just right across the front?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if those are precise weapons, because the entire car disappears into dust. I feel like it's hitting more than just one in the block.

[B]

Yeah. So I got to learn cool stuff about how to pull that data from those types of things. But then also when there was a bullet through a hard drive, I got to learn how to pull data from those things.

[A]

When does it become truly irrecoverable?

[B]

I can talk about that from a non military aspect and say if you place a really large powered magnet on a hard drive, you can do a variety of damage that will make it cost prohibitive to recover it. But you can recover it.

[A]

What about. So absent a magnet, I'm talking just basic damage.

[B]

Is it almost always drill drilling it really like taking a drill and just drilling the shit out of it like everywhere.

[A]

I mean, absent those two things though, is data almost always recoverable data?

[B]

If you have the money. Yeah. And the time and the smart guys, you can recover a lot from corrupted hard drives. I've done it for my buddies a couple of times.

[A]

Even guys who let's just. I mean this is my limit of knowledge. The control, alt, delete. Let's say you go in. Well, I know it doesn't work on a Mac. I've been using a Mac forever. Let's say you go in there and you want to. You hit the factory reset button. Are you guys still able or is not you guys. But are people still able to recover data from.

[B]

Depending on the machine, depending on how long ago it happened and what amount of data has been wiped over it or stored over it. Yes.

[A]

Today's show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Many people to including myself, probably didn't realize that October 10th is world mental Health Day. I have in the past and will consistently do so moving forward. Continue to talk about the impact that counseling and therapy has had on. On my life. I make no bones about it. There have been times in my life where I've needed help. There have been times in my life where I needed an objective third person to take a look at what I was going through, what was going on in my life, what I was struggling with. I needed an opinion from somebody who didn't have their nose smashed up against it. It's so easy to talk about the benefits of mental health. But you know what? This year for Mental health Day, I think we should take a moment to appreciate the therapists and counselors that are actually putting in the work to make other people's lives that much better. Very thankless job often. And they can be forgotten about because you're focusing on your own personal development. Just imagine a job of those men and women who are on the receiving end of helping other people work their way through some of their most darkest moments and how hard that can be. They absolutely 100% deserve our thanks. And that's how I'm choosing to think about Mental Health Day for this year. Finding the right person to talk to can literally change everything in your life if that's what it is that you're looking for. And this brings me back to betterhelp Quality of Therapist Better help Therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the United States. They have a therapist match commitment Better help does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals? A short questioner helps identify your needs and preferences for and their 12 plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate mean that they typically get it right the first time. But here's an important thing. If you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from one of their tailored recommendations. Client reviews Are people happy with this type of service? Over 30,000 therapists is what BetterHelp has in their stable the world's largest online therapy platform having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. I don't actually know if they use stars, but it's 4.9 out of 5. This World Mental Health Day, let's celebrate the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help start your journey. Listeners are gonna get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com cleared hot. That's better help. Hotel Echo Lima Papa I still have it.combetterhelp.com cleared hot back to the show.

[B]

But again it all comes down to your the willingness you are to put engineers and time and money against it because you're talking about, you know, I can think of a couple times where there's probably a half million dollar bill on getting data from from a device.

[A]

Is that just man hours?

[B]

Yeah, man hours.

[A]

God.

[B]

And you know the way that they do it with X, they actually do it with an X ray.

[A]

Really.

[B]

So you're talking about going through X raying parts of the hard drive and then taking images and then reassembling the images and then recompiling the binary, putting the ones and zeros back together and then recreating the hard drive and then reading that hard drive.

[A]

What I'm getting out of this is magnets and drills.

[B]

Yeah, magnets and drills. Or blowing it up. But even then, that doesn't always do it. But. And I'm not talking about anything classified. You could find this online. You could Google this, destroy almost everything.

[A]

One of my favorite things I used to do to my closest friends would be to take breacher magnets and run their credit cards by them and then laugh my ass off as you see them losing their shit at the gas station.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then if this was before the days of Apple Pay, where you could use your phone.

[B]

I mean, if you're out of breacher magnets, you could always use some C6 or something like that. That'll get rid of some stuff on a hard drive.

[A]

Yeah. But I'm telling you, those ones that we used to hold, that I've almost broken my fingers. Those rare earth magnets. Just one. Somebody leaves their. It's like if a. If you leave your cat card out, which is a military ID card, I'm drawing on it in permanent marker, comes off with an alcohol swab. So take it easy. But if you leave your wallet out, I'm swiping your credit cards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I like the fact that you ran out of gas.

[B]

Yeah. It's fun.

[A]

It is fun. And it's like, is it gonna happen to me? Yes.

[B]

But it lets them know that you were thinking about them. That's what they should take away. Right. And he was thinking about me.

[A]

Yeah. And it will come. We'll come back full circle. Yes. That's the cost of the ticket to ride.

[B]

Yeah. I've had buddies delete files I work with. Well, they're actually two really good friends of mine, but they run a really large hunting YouTube channel. Yeah. Called Seek One. Seek as in like S E E K. Yeah, one. The number. And they're about, like, almost a million subscribers on YouTube, I think. And he's like, hey, dude, I just reported. Recorded a podcast, and I think it deleted it. Like, can you. You know, can you recover this? So I've done that type of stuff. I've reassembled audio for them. Done that type of thing. So, yeah, it's always. It's largely possible with data, especially the way that we do it and build.

[A]

Redundancy into products with these things in our pockets 24. 7. I mean, are we basically just human insignia?

[B]

You're jacked into the matrix. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Any sufficiently talented person with money and time could deconstruct your life.

[A]

I was watching a documentary. I'm trying to remember. It was, I believe it was an Israeli program, but it was a no click exploitation. I want to say it was Pegasus or something.

[B]

Yeah, Pegasus. Yeah, it was Pegasus.

[A]

Fuck, man, who is thinking of that stuff? Do they just have a room of people who are. I mean, just about everybody is smarter than me for clarity, but just full on scientists figuring out ways to do this stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I mean they got guys like ethical hackers, they call them, or people that sit around in labs all day and build work called zero days. So they'll find a fatal flaw in software or firmware? Yeah, software mostly. And they won't tell the company. They'll just build the exploits. Abu bad guys ever carrying that type of.

[A]

Oh, they just put it on the shelf.

[B]

Put it on the shelf and hold it and then once you need it. And that's why they call it a zero day.

[A]

Speaking of exploits, how dope was the pager bombs?

[B]

I mean, that chef's kiss. Yeah, chef's kiss. What a master class.

[A]

What do you think was the number that showed up when they looked at their pager? What would you have gone with? 911?

[B]

No, I would have thought of something local relevance there. Yeah, yeah. I mean if it were me doing it, I would have put 9, 1101 on there. But I don't know. I tell you what, I'd call you and ask you what number I should put on there because I feel like you could probably come up with a pretty good one.

[A]

I need a few seconds to noodle on it, but yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. What I mean, you want to talk about a combined human seeing it operation? Yeah, damn. Because I am not aware of them smoking anybody that they didn't mean to. One of those pagers ending up in the wrong hands?

[B]

No, there's.

[A]

There's layers to that. I mean, they had to figure out who was going to go where. They had to get their hands on them.

[B]

They had logistics, shell companies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Engineering placement, access.

[A]

You got to give it to them. It was amazing.

[B]

It was great. I mean I generally, and I think I talked about this last time I was on the podcast. I'm not really interested in anyone else's fight other than our own.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I appreciate the way that they do war.

[A]

You got to give them props for that particular one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There's this weird retarded thing going around the news where we talk about proportionality. Yeah, it's weird because it's weird because we'll say Ukraine shouldn't be proportional at all. Right.

[A]

Because he's fighting the.

[B]

You need to elevate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But Israel, they need to be proportional and strip the country. The strip the, the countries out. Anytime you're talking about war, proportionality is not. There's no war that you should engage in where you talk about proportionality. It's like the Japan bombed this on Pearl harbor. So now we're going to go bomb that exact amount of ships in their harbors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like no, you wipe them off the face of the earth.

[A]

I can understand it. The Japan example is a good one. You know, the dropping of the atomic bombs. There's people are gonna get wrapped up in that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh yeah. I mean when fast forwarding to the, you know, the post 2000s, I can understand the conversation when you're fighting an insurgency that's in and amongst civilians, like if they shoot at you with an AK, do you need a 2000 pound JDM on a village? Probably not. I understand that level of proportionality.

[B]

And no, I'm not saying again, I stripped away countries.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

I'm just talking about anytime I'm gonna go to war. And I said this on your last podcast, my threshold for war is excruciatingly high. Agreed, excruciatingly high. But once that's met, then everyone dies that I can get a hand on. But again my threshold is very high. I just the idea of proportionality, to me it's like to me that's how you get Stalingrad, that's how you get Verdun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You get trench warfare where people are moving a foot a day, nothing's really happening. And when people, you know, people will die and not even know what was going on. And that's not a way to me, it's not a way to prosecute war. And I'm not again speaking about Israel, Palestine. I'm just talking about the thought of war, you know, quick, fast, decisive and disincentivize anybody from wanting, ever wanting to go to war with you again. Yeah. And that my hope is that you can prevent war.

[A]

So when an answer to this as broadly as you want to. I look at this through. When I exited, I never once thought about commercial off the shelf drones dropping ordinance. I never once had that thought.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were at a place where you guys were nerding out on some stuff and thinking ahead. Had you guys started looking at that or is that an evolution even since you've been out there were talks about.

[B]

It when I was Getting out. Obviously the. The Russo or the Russian Ukraine almost said Russia Ukraine. The Russian Ukraine war elevated that because, you know, for. For what the amount of explosives that it took to execute the kind of effects that could only get from a hellfire you're now getting from that came.

[A]

Out of the trucks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And again, you want to talk about another great operation? The truck drivers apparently, from what I've been able to determine, had no idea that they were actually carrying that cargo.

[B]

I know, dude, that would like me at night.

[A]

Well done.

[B]

Yeah. But again, I wouldn't want to have any part of that. Like, I don't want to go to like. Like, obviously we're going to come up with ways to defeat that. Right. It's a bell curve that you need to get in front of. And I'm sure that we're doing that. I know we are, but. And I'm not being told that. I'm just saying. Yeah. You see a threat on the horizon, you're like, we got to nail this down. Right now.

[A]

Rational military or forward thinkers are going to look at that and try to solve them.

[B]

Yeah. And they will. And there are people out there who do that. I knew some of the guys who did that type of stuff, but that is a terrifying. I just. I would not want to get anywhere near that.

[A]

Just the sound. Because again, maybe they're not targeting your trench today.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But have you seen those pictures of the fields of fiber optic cable?

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

And you just constantly. Because those drones have such a distinct noise too. Yeah, I am. I can't even. And again, they're in trenches. So again, we're almost back to Stalingrad.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we're in trenches fucking fighting each other with aerial robots, which I feel like that would have been helpful in Stalingrad. Way to not think ahead, guys.

[B]

And their amount and their ability to deliver the kinetic effects, that used to cost us 100, 200, $300,000.

[A]

Single grenades down, gun turrets and tanks from hundreds of feet.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Just the way that they're figuring how to aim that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's insane. But then also to deliver cyber effects and to counter cyber effects, you know, we used to worry about jammers.

[A]

Look at that shit.

[B]

Yeah. Stressful. I'm so glad I'm not anywhere near or a part of any of this.

[A]

But do you think that that type of warfare, now that the entire world has seen this, do you think that there is a capable nation that is not developing that or at least thinking about this? I mean, is this. Do you think this is not a capable one. Do you think this is the new standard, though?

[B]

I think it's going to. It's going to even the playing field for people that don't have the money in a way that, you know, money almost becomes less of a force multiplier than it used to. So you're going to have asymmetric threats that are going to have a lot more core capability than they did 10 years ago, because anybody now, you can train anybody on those drones in a few minutes.

[A]

Have you ever seen the drone shows they do in China?

[B]

I have not seen that, but I can imagine.

[A]

I just. So it's like 10,000 drones and they're dragons flying through the air and fighting each other. I just imagine.

[B]

Oh, those. Yes, I've seen those. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay, so let's just go ahead. Some ordinance to that and then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you. How do you defend against that? Whatever they put it on a vessel. And then from my understanding, they're not doing swarm type stuff in Ukraine. You know, obviously those trucks. And they all kind of seemed like went to different targets because they were trying to target their strategic capability. How do you defend against 10,000 drones that if I was in charge, I would make them look like a dragon or like a dolphin coming at your ship. How do you. What the fuck do you do?

[B]

Brute force jamming. So somebody is going to have to be sampling, so I won't try to get too technical.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there's a signal envelope that those drones operate off of. Someone will have to sample that signal envelope and determine in what band of the RF spectrum they're operating. And then, you know, like we did with the Warlocks back in the day, you know, the id. Yeah, same thing. Yeah. And, you know, pluck those things out of the sky or make them useless in the air or develop zero days to implant their technology so that before those drones ever get off the ground. That's probably what I would be working on if I were still in right now, is, hey, what is the UAV fleet look like in this country? And then have a firm understanding of the UAVs that they're developing and then go pay somebody to go and go get me a couple and then take those back to Maryland somewhere and figure out how we can implant this thing and make it, you know, knock it off the battlefield. And I'm sure there are people doing that. Again, I don't have tacit knowledge of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I know that's how it worked in the past. So I assume that's how it's working now.

[A]

Again, thankfully, there's people smarter than me. I'd be like, I'll just go to the gun store and get like some box and nine mil rounds, you know, and I'll just put that in the safe because I'm not so good against drones. I'll just say that when somebody tries to come to my house.

[B]

Right. It's frightening. It's only gonna get worse.

[A]

Well, it seems like it's evolving at a velocity that is hard to actually kind of keep track of.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

I'm interested. I wonder if those, you know, those autonomous, like dogs and humanoid robots. I wonder how far away we are from that stuff.

[B]

I mean, autonomous, I don't know. But like, I've seen videos of like, you know, infantry squads moving with like a dog, like robot carrying a lot of their kit or their gear, their heavier stuff.

[A]

They made movies about this that we watched when we were k. Yeah.

[B]

They warned us about all this.

[A]

Skynet become aware. On August 29th at 1:30pm he became fully aware.

[B]

God t model 101.

[A]

If he was eligible, I think he might be voted in as president.

[B]

If you're eligible, I think.

[A]

I think he would have a shot.

[B]

What epic of Arnold are we talking about? Like, are we talking like, I would.

[A]

Like to see Conan just used the gills on chicken breast and broccoli.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's all natural.

[B]

Yeah. I don't see your enemy driven before you to hear the lamentations of the women.

[A]

I mean, how long was he governor for like eight years?

[B]

Six or eight? Yeah, something like that. And he did a pretty good job. I think.

[A]

I could see him. I could see him rallying enough people.

[B]

Yeah. The only thing that sticks out for me that probably wouldn't bode well for guys like me is I don't care about your freedoms. During COVID that went over like a fart in church for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A lot of Arnold posters came down that day for me.

[A]

Yeah. People are imperfect.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And you know what? I hyper overreacted to covet in the early onset stages just because my wife has cystic fibrosis. Yeah. And I didn't want her to be. Patient zero for the lung killing virus. Oh, did you go unknown origins? Oh, we went hard.

[A]

Were you microwaving your mail?

[B]

No, I was putting. If I ordered food, it went in the oven at like 460 degrees before we ate it.

[A]

What were you trying to kill? Other than everything?

[B]

Other viruses and bacteria that might be on from pizza Guy, this. Now, again, this was looking back.

[A]

What's the craziest shit you did?

[B]

I would go grocery shopping for my wife. I had a workout mat with like a pull up bar and a rowing machine. I place all the food out there and I'd wipe it down before it went in the house.

[A]

Yeah, this is people who wave their.

[B]

Mail very early in it. Right. And once the data started coming out about how actually people with CF weren't. There's something about CF where there's a gene that actually makes them handle Covid better than other people did. Don't quote me. I'm not 100% sure on that. But the sign started coming out that it wasn't a killer for people with cf. And then I just was like, I'm done, like, walking around without a mask, acting like a total asshole. Because I wasn't worried about myself. I was worried about her. I just didn't want her to be patient zero. I had a dear friend of mine whose dad had gotten it early and died in like two weeks or like 10 days or something like that. And I was like, man, I do not want to go through this experiment with my wife. So that really motivated me to try to protect her as much as I could. And just at that point, I still trusted the government. I still trusted that scientists were doing the best by people.

[A]

I trusted that 20, 21, you trusted.

[B]

The government at that point, I trusted.

[A]

Worked for the government for 20 years.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I trusted the scientific establishment to the point where I thought that we were. I didn't understand we were getting gene therapy done on us. Like, I knew how to read studies. I was reading published studies as they were coming out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what I mean by that is I have a fair understanding of statistics. I understand how control groups work. Yeah, I understand. You know, I was reading all of the science and I was just thinking to myself, we're in a pandemic. This isn't screwing around to inflate the currency. This is a pandemic. And so I was loaning them a lot more credit than I should have.

[A]

How do you view it now?

[B]

We were like, how crazy can I sound? Like, as crazy as you've heard people get about COVID Yeah, I'm probably 80% of the way there. I believe it was made. I believe it was made in a lab. I believe it was released. Whether or not it was intentional, I don't know. But once it was out there, they were trying to spread it, and they were like, well, if we got this thing we might as well use it. To me, the Chinese looked at Covid like a rocket. It's there to be shot. So if it's out there now, send them all to the us. I remember being on a flight very, very early on before maybe people were mentioning that Covid was happening or maybe people. I don't remember exactly. I want to say it was February and I don't remember the exact timeline, but everyone was flying. No one was wearing masks right before it. Now I was flying back from Florida and I was on a plane with a bunch of Chinese people. And I got so sick right afterwards for like 12 days. Like, I've never been this sick in my life. I did not know it was Covid. I just thought I had a really bad flu. Yeah, it was likely Covid and I was just down and out. And I do believe that people were being shipped over here and that there was one of those things where it was like, they're the Chinese Communist Party. They have a nail, they want to hit it with a hammer.

[A]

I like it. So you have a tinfoil hat and like a three piece suit. It.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I like it in that regard. Again, I can be proven wrong by all of this, but I, I do believe that it was, it was purposely made. And whether or not it was purposely let out, once it was out, they decided to do as much damage with it as they could.

[A]

Well, that, I mean, no personal belief. I think there is probably some debate as to whether or not it was accidental or intentional. I think at this point it's pretty well documented that the Wuhan Institute of Virology is a likely origin spot as opposed to the wet food market that was several blocks away.

[B]

It was definitely that.

[A]

Whatever. Yeah. I do wonder though if it was accidental or intentional because there's some pretty good information out there about the lack of. Is it the lack or, you know, basically missing safety protocols that were supposed to exist in that type of lab. It was interesting. It was a really good telling exercise. And fear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if people had ever really been existentially scared that much ever. But I feel like, you know, it doesn't seem as if it was designed to be a species ender.

[B]

No.

[A]

But I think because of the way that the US and I can only speak for the US's handling of it, of the messaging changing every other. Instead of people in charge just saying, we don't actually know. Yeah, this is the concrete guidance for the day. And then this. And so now and then it got to the place Where I think they burned the vast majority of their capital when it came to trust.

[B]

Sure did. Which I'm for. Well, I don't trust the government.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's plenty of reasons you can point out to not trust the government. Let's say. Whatever. Not from Wuhan. Let's say there is a wet market somewhere where, you know, pangolins and bats are having sexual relations and we have a batgalin or whatever it is and somebody eats it if it actually had the lethality that they were estimating it. And let's say that happens again. But now people distrust our government so much because of how it was handled, and they probably should be listening to them, but they say, oh, I have something for you, Deuces, because of what they did last time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know where to go from there because they certainly earned the right to have trust be just completely liquidated.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we could do a whole different podcast on this. I have an addictive personality. I did a ton of reading about this. I do believe that there was intentional misinformation. And I also believe, you know, I've heard it. I don't remember who the quote's attributed to, but, like, never let a good crisis go to waste. Go to waste. And, you know, the inflating of the currency, the centralization of power, all of the lobbying that happens with the, you know, Pfizer and all of these other people, all of them getting no attribution for, you know, the way that this thing was rolled out.

[A]

Essentially a hold harmless in perpetuity.

[B]

Yeah. And then we fund all of their science and then they keep all the profits. And I still was just getting a prescription the other day, and it had, like, make sure you get your COVID vaccine on the bottom of the prescription. I was like, what is this gobbledygook? Like, what are they doing?

[A]

I guess if you're an at risk person, of course.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

But, yeah, it's. That is actually my worry that people have lost so much faith and trust that if something were to actually happen, we would cut off our own nose to spite our face. I'd be so pissed at the government for what they did last time that they'd have no faith in them and then it'd be too late.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I hope they're doing an after action report here. What went wrong? What was supposed to happen? What went wrong? What went right? Like, I hope the government's like, how.

[A]

Can you pair government With I hope they're doing the right thing.

[B]

I would. I just said hope. I didn't say I think they are.

[A]

Again, 100 that they're not.

[B]

No, I know.

[A]

And if they did, that would be a document that would be shared only in the skiff of some kind.

[B]

Yeah. And never seen by the other day.

[A]

No.

[B]

It's so frustrating. It's so frustrating.

[A]

Good old COVID 19. Fun times.

[B]

It was fun. This is. I.

[A]

This is a good place to weather it.

[B]

I actually kind of enjoyed it once it like once people are all really locked down and stuff. I gotta be honest, I kind of enjoyed not having to deal with people. People think often that I'm like a social butterfly or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This type of stuff actually wears me out to the nth degree. And for me, it's like being in a tree stand or being alone somewhere or focusing on a task or doing something is where I recharge. And. And I liked it because I got to focus on Spartan Forge while I was still active duty military. Like we were doing like two or three meetings a day. Yeah. And then, you know, 2pm There ain't nothing going on. So I shifted right into working on Spartan Forge while I was in the military. And you know, the really hard part, I think, for a lot of investments or startups is, you know, developing a concept, getting a minimally viable product that's, you know, ready for some type of prime time, whether it's to get users to prove a concept or to get investment. And I got to get subsidized by the US government while I was doing that, because I was still a soldier, accountable, you know, I went and did my calls every day. And then after the calls were over, like nobody did calls after 2pm and you just sit there through the call. And I was doing other stuff and I still did my job, but nobody was going into work.

[A]

It is the best aviation app, not designed in any way, shape or form for aviation.

[B]

Well, I appreciate that.

[A]

Like I said, there's industry standard stuff out there. And most pilots would recognize foreflight, which I think was purchased by Boeing some time ago, or they purchased the underlying Jeppesen map. Soft. Whatever. It's. It's somehow associated with that. But it, as with almost any tool, it has its limits. And I've told you this offline many times, or actually I've talked about it on the show too. The LIDAR feature for me, the ability to look at stuff without the vegetation on there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then being able to slide the bar where you can see the sun that helps me set up the direction I'm going to come in for an approach. Like here's the thought. Don't be staring into the sun when you're trying to land. Helicopter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know who's an idiot though? Who does that all the time. Still not realizing I could just come in from the other direction. Yeah. But I wasn't selected for my intelligence.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's cool. It's.

[B]

I'm gonna build out some of those other use cases. They are working on it right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we'll be having a conversation with it here in the. Probably the next few months. But. But you know, my most important role in the company is a product owner to developing. You know, more than. Even more and more important than being a CEO, which really is not that important is the product owners. Like, what is the product going to be? What's it going to look like, the form and fashion, all that type of thing. And then from that is all right. If I'm going to do a Spartan Forge, you know, aviation or Spartan Forge, this.

[A]

I don't even know if you need to branch off to aviation. I think the tools there.

[B]

Well, what I was actually envisioning was. What I was actually envisioning was a skin. So like when you first launch the app, like what are you gonna be using this for? Yeah. And then maybe like the three line menu you could toggle. Because there's some stuff that hunters will just never use that naviation guys better 100. So if you have skins inside of there. I'm still thinking it through exactly how we're gonna do it.

[A]

And they're on. The inverse of that is true too. There's some hunting stuff that aviation guys would never use.

[B]

We'll just never use. It'll just cloud the screen for them. Or just making a fully customizable gui. But then that involves training users.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is difficult. Like especially when people are trained on certain ways of doing things. You more or less want to opinionate your approach and then have a good product owner helping you do that. So like you like when I'm in a helicopter, I've got my right hand here and I can do this. And here's what I'm looking for. Then you opinionate the development. The UI and the ux.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's been probably one of my biggest learning curves because when I was making stuff in the military that had any UI or ux, I just got to force it on the soldier. Then call them stupid if they didn't understand it.

[A]

Well, that's a good model.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I wouldn't scale that in a for profit model. That's.

[B]

It never would work. But I kind of started that way and like, well, I can do this better. Not realizing that even if you have better, you have to connect the string from here and there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And say, start where they are, where they understand and then iterate, you know, and move it in that direction or incentivize them by having product offerings that other competitor apps don't have. So then they're forced to learn it because they know the value of the feature. Now they're going to take the time to learn it. So most times people just don't want to learn. I don't either.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that, that, that's, you know, been 50% of my days design and thinking through all of the instantiations and how this can be interpreted and passing it off to buddies. You know, we have an integration environment where we have on my phone, like a test version of the app that's got a bunch of bells and whistles that people aren't seeing on the production version. Yeah. And then giving that to my hunting buddies and saying like, here, go and use this or I go and use it and then how does this work?

[A]

Well.

[B]

Or not. Like, that's a whole version of the app development pipeline that I ought to have probably thought about more. But I just kind of thought I'll just build the best version and that'll be it. It's like, no, it's like you might have an ideal, but you need to get there from what they understand. Or you need to have features that incentivize that learning, the pragmatic approaches to do both.

[A]

Do you enjoy being an entrepreneur?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're still building stuff, right? I mean, obviously you're building for a different sector, but do you enjoy it at least as much as the military or more or less?

[B]

I enjoy aspects of it more and there are aspects of the military I enjoyed more. I'm better suited for this, I think, than I was for the military. But then also I couldn't have gotten here without the military. So that's a bit of a paradox. I love the culture of hunting and the background of hunting and I love, you know, we said resilience before. I love doing things for yourself. Getting out there alone and unafraid. Get on the side of a mountain, find an animal. It's trying not to be found. I love that. I love enabling that. Because then you're like the meta hunter. You're helping other People hunt. And it was really difficult because when we first started the application, it was, do I want to come to the market with Hunting App 2.0 that just has all of the same stuff that everybody else has, or do I want to start small with market differentiators, knowing that they're going to have to probably use something else as backup? But I've got some features in mind that nobody else has, so that will bring them on. So they might have to use something else. Kind of like I always make the comparison of like a truck. Like I want a Tesla, right? But I need my F150 that gets gas like my old Tremor takes gas can go 700 miles on the tank. But I like the idea of my wife tooling around town in a Tesla that can just recharge and she's a horrible driver, not a cybertruck, but that she can that so. But I can't depend on that. But it's a good way to enter the market. And this car is self driving or will be near self driving. It's got these cameras all around it. It's rechargeable. The gap, the price per kilowatt is cheaper than when you do the energy consumption on a truck. So for a long time and probably for the foreseeable future, people that are spending a lot of time driving around the road and stuff might want a Tesla, but they're still gonna have to subsidize it with a truck. My app was kind of the same way. I said, no, I'm going to enter the market with features that no one else has. And it might need to be, you know, you might need something else for some other things. But in the last, you know, you asked what was going on. I would say in the last few months or so, and I see it in the reviews and the customer interactions. It's now an app that can stand alone and people can depend on. And most of this year has been spent on reliability. You know, being out in the woods, no signal for a long period of time. It still performs, it still works. So a lot of the updates, with the exception of like UAV and LIDAR and some of the other updates that we've done with like game units and that type of thing have been under the hood where it's just reliability, reliability, reliability.

[A]

I'm trying to think in my head if there's any from a digital realm, if there's anything that I exclusively use for anything, and I don't, I actually think there always is a case to have more than one as an example, we go down to Costa Rica for Jiu Jitsu.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Apple Maps. Horrible. So you have to fire up Google Maps and it has all the local stuff on there. Podcasting. What we're doing right now, there is a different experience on Spotify, and you can get video on Spotify, but most people, you know what I mean, they use the app, the native Apple app. I'm trying to think of anything I do that requires electronics. I don't know if there is a standalone. Even photos or camera icons on your phone. There's like the. It comes with. Well, you wouldn't know because you use a communist device. But.

[B]

That'S funny because that one was made in China and this one was made in South Korea. So if we're gonna assign labels.

[A]

I'm trying to. So it goes into the photo app, but then all the editing stuff, if you want to edit photos, is all sec. It's all aftermarket. And there's things that do some. Well, and I'm trying. I don't. I can't think of a single thing that is a standalone.

[B]

You use just Apple products, right? Pretty much. Or do you have different computers and that type of thing?

[A]

Just Apple. Once you're in, you're in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I understand it's a complete and full ecosystem.

[B]

I've thought about having to get it. I have an Apple 12 that I just use to test the app, but. But something like 80% of our market is Apple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it makes me think as the product owner, I should probably be running an Apple exclusively.

[A]

It just speaks more to the quality of the person, the character.

[B]

Yeah, Makes sense. If anyone's been listening this whole podcast, I'll understand that comment.

[A]

No, I don't think you're ever gonna. There's no perfect thing. I am drawing a blank on anything I do on my phone where there's not two even news. Different outlets, maybe. No, because you can get music off of Spotify as well, too, if you want to do different playlists or different things are available. Yeah. It's not like it's possible to have a perfect standalone. And I think it's totally reasonable to always expect people will bounce back and forth a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I get it. I mean, I like Android because, well, up until like two phones ago, I would root all of my phones and run a custom operating system that I could do other things with.

[A]

Are there English words for what you just said?

[B]

I would take the software, even though it's not really. Well, I would take the user Interface and software off the phone and replace it with my own.

[A]

Okay. Is that just because you want to be Bill and because you can?

[B]

Yeah. But also like I didn't like a lot of now I've. I'm in Hook line and Synchronous. But before it was like I didn't want them having access to all my data. Yeah, I didn't want, I want them having access to my Internet, my browsing history.

[A]

So how do you protect yourself against that now?

[B]

I mean, I still run VPNs but there are ways around. They're not easy. Yeah, yeah. Like to get around VPNs and signal you have to be somebody like in.

[A]

Order for the government, like nation, in.

[B]

Order for a government to do it. Yeah. They're not going to hack our signal. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't give a about actually.

[A]

Government owned in the first place.

[B]

Well, there's, after the podcast we can talk about that. But even though, even still, I thought.

[A]

We were putting our tinfoil hats on.

[B]

Yeah, well, even still, it costs a lot of money to get into. Like if you're running a piece of software, it's breakable. There are no foolproof pieces of software. The question becomes, is there information that whoever nation state actor X is wants off of your phone? Are they willing to pay the amount of money that they want to get it off there? So if you're like a high profile reporter who's maybe reading Meeting with Russia, probably going to hack your shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Probably going to assume your shit's hacked. I know, I've told. Well, I know God, high profile people who are interviewing people, guys, you know, in our circles, their shit's hacked and I've told them as much. And I would say some dope pictures.

[A]

Of my miniature dachshund. And if people want to spend a lot of money to hack that, I recommend it because he's amazing.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, the only thing.

[A]

You'Re going to find on my phone though is an entire phone reel of just dog pictures.

[B]

The, the though even when I was getting out, the amount that they're able to keep a lot of that stuff furtive on the device and would even stand up to like a forensic examiner work that I did in the past where you're, you know, dumping someone's phone, there's still ways to hide stuff and figure out, you know, I've done it on the both offensive and defensive sides. So I'm going after someone's phone or a guy like you comes back from A place where you're sure that your got flipped through. Yeah. And then you bring your phone to me and then I tell you like, yeah, here's what was happened to your phone.

[A]

Does it leave breadcrumbs when people do that stuff?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and there are ways to get rid of those breadcrumbs. It's, it's just like with the IED thing and with the drone thing. Right. Like the art of technology catches up to itself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, someone develops a cool implant that does cool and someone does a countermeasure to it and someone counters the countermeasure and it's just that back and forth. And that's just the state of technology. There's things that you can do to protect yourself. But most people that are running a VPN signal on either device, or I think there's even on Apple, there's some modes that you can get into where your phone's pretty locked down by and large. If you're not meeting with Putin on the weekend or you're not interviewing vice presidential or presidential candidates at a regular.

[A]

You know, you're gonna be okay.

[B]

You're probably gonna be all right. You're probably secure.

[A]

Can you run a VPN through another vpn?

[B]

Yeah. You can do. Yes. There's tunneling, but it doesn't really add all that much to it.

[A]

I saw in the movie I watched.

[B]

What movie was that?

[A]

I don't know, some sci fi shit. Well, there's.

[B]

There's certain things you can do, but by and large, if you're just Joe Schmo like me or us now, and you're listening to. Well, actually you're probably reaching. No. Well, we've had some conversations in the past about people that you've had opportunities to interview. We won't say names, which I turned down. Had you done those interviews. Which is why I love you. Had you done those interviews, I would say there's a 15% chance that you're.

[A]

Gonna hit radar there for sure.

[B]

You're gonna, you're gonna just by virtue. Because you know, we talked about earlier before, you know, placement and access.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the key components to human intelligence operation.

[A]

You've got placement and you're planning to head on that. Yeah. Because who knows, maybe it would never happen again, but then maybe it would. And then they're, you know, whatever. An ear or eye in the room.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Even again. And I got all this off a documentary, the Pegasus thing. They were able to reverse engineer that one. It took them a long Time to do it. But now I think there's actually a company in Canada that specializes in just that particular exploit. Reverse engineering it and figuring out where it came from, which is usually how did it was at least one of them was a text message with a link from somebody that they knew, but it was mirrored as that. But they didn't even have to click on the link.

[B]

No.

[A]

Which does that just mean if they have, if they wanted to, if they have your phone number, they have you.

[B]

Yes. Because while that particular exploit, it's a no click was done on the radio chip.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. So just by virtue of you receiving the message allowed the implant to take place as I understood it. Again, I've only read the forensic reports that were done in the open on it. Yeah, I was in active duty when that happened. I would have had a lot more information that I probably wouldn't be able to talk about. But, but what I read on the Internet and from people that would know or looked at the binary, it was getting, being, getting done on the chip, I believe.

[A]

Damn. Yeah. For a while there, nobody could figure out what was going on, how it showed up. And I swear I didn't click on it. They're like, yeah, you don't have to on this one.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But it's, it's just, you know, it's, it's part and parcel with the package. If you're going to carry these devices around, that's what it's going to be. And if you're not carrying them around, it's an indicator.

[A]

Well, and I don't see our society going in a direction where the utilization or reliance is going to go the other direction.

[B]

I kind of think that it will really.

[A]

Okay, back to flip phones or no tech at all.

[B]

Or not no tech at all. Here's a couple of things I think about and we can go many directions on this, but one of the things I think about is I think in a few years, I hope, I hope that in a few years taking out, like if you, you and I were sitting in the coffee shop before having coffee, you taking out your phone will become a social faux pas.

[A]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

While we're discussing things, it annoys the hell out of me.

[A]

It actually probably should be one now, but it's so commonplace.

[B]

But I think it's gonna get there. And the reason why I say that is because there's a younger counterculture right now, like my son, that is very anti establishment. All of his friends and everything. They all loved Trump when he was coming out, even though, well, there's several conversation. They were simply loving Trump because all the adults that they were around in school and other places didn't like him. And it was a countercultural revolution. And younger generations, no matter what the raison d' etre of the ruling class is, they're just going to counter it. So I think there's a pretty good chance that people will view flipping take. I could be wrong, but I've been right about a couple of these things. I can tell you ones that I've been right about in the past and my wife can back me up on these. I've made a couple good calls in the past, but I think in a few years if we're sitting here talking and I. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Which is like the most common occurrence in almost every social interaction and you'll.

[B]

See it all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think people are going to start getting really annoyed with that. Akin to like, like smoking in a restaurant.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was tolerated by everybody. And then, you know, everywhere you go, everyone smoked. And then all of a sudden people started to get educated on it or people started to understand what it does to the body. And I think they're, you know, there's a great author, I've read a couple of his books, Jonathan Haidt, he's got a book called the Coddling of the American Mind and he talks about this and the effects of social media and phones on children and their brains. That's horrible in the development stages. And I think as this generation grows up and they are feeling more profoundly empty, rudderless, without meaning, they will start to realize the source of a lot of that is everyone posts the best moments from their lives. Everybody's looking for likes, everyone's looking for instant gratification. I, and I'm not Nostradamus here, but I foresee a cultural kind of flex back where either people are not taking them out in public or there's like a phone check area and it will be looked at as a faux pas when they do it or like this guy's an asshole and, or people using, you know, non traditional devices, I don't think the flip phone will come back, but I do think it's going to become more of a faux pas.

[A]

I think that would have a net incredibly positive benefit on society.

[B]

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I could be wrong. I've had other theories like this. Some of them have come true, some of them haven't. I did make, I mean, this is going to sound stupid, but I remember telling my wife years ago. We're gonna start normalizing things like pedophilia and.

[A]

Are we, though there are some people trying. I think the vast majority of sane human beings are not on board with it.

[B]

Well, the other thing I said was mutilating children was one of the ones where she's like, we're never gonna get there. We're never. This is just like before we were dating when we were friends. Yeah. I was like, I was just, you know, in Europe for a few years and I heard the conversations that are going on over there and they're a canary in the coal mine for us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in some ways in Canada, as well as our greatest top hat. And they all have those conversations now. And, you know, there's, there's, you know, we're chemically neutering children. And I'm not trying to get on that subject. All I'm saying is that's something that I called early on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I think no one was really talking about it.

[A]

I always wonder, though, how mainstream it actually is or how much we are bombarded by an incredibly vocal minority.

[B]

Yeah. That. Yes. All I'm saying is that is a conversation I think when we were growing up would get your ass beaten.

[A]

I don't even think people would understand the conversation.

[B]

But I mean, if somebody was talking, if you heard, if parents heard, we're going to start giving my kid the same shit that they give to people who are rapists. We're gonna chemically neuter him or we're gonna chop her breasts off. People be like, I'm calling the cops.

[A]

On you or be chased with a pitchfork.

[B]

Yeah. But now, like movie stars are trying to do it because it's just all of a sudden like if you look at the. I saw the. I don't remember where I saw the data, but you can find it. The amount of Hollywood actors who have gender fluid children versus their population statistically anomalous. It's. It's a fact. It's way higher in, In. Yeah. In Hollywood. And because it's become a. It's become a virtue because if you're extremely rich and well off and you really don't have major problems to speak of, you can introduce virtue and introduce something that either garner sympathy or admiration because you're now doing this thing with your kid where you're encouraging them to go and do X, Y or Z and it, you know, it's tolerant and even to, you know, I even remember a few years ago, like, it's getting a little better, but you couldn't Even make a transgender joke, you know, a few years ago without getting that to Dave Chappelle. Yeah, right.

[A]

Who apparently is under fire for allegedly continuously showing up to comedy shows. Just faced. Just hammered.

[B]

I. I read something about him being.

[A]

A fascist the other day.

[B]

Someone was like, he's a fascist now or something.

[A]

My dad was sitting in your chair a few weeks ago and decided to call some people Nazis. And I'm like, hey, buddy, that means a really particular thing. Mike was in the room. I'm like, we're gonna. He tried to move on from it. I'm like, no. And going backwards, you have to have. Words have to mean something.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Those are. They fall into the category. I hear people having conversations all the time. If you get them to a place intentionally or accidentally where they feel a little bit cornered, they start reaching into the quiver for magic words that shut conversations down or can't be argued against. And my theory is, first off, the noises you're making with your vocal cords, they're not inherently going to offend me. But you can't call everybody a Nazi or a fascist unless you want it to have absolutely no meaning. That stuff is very specific.

[B]

You pollute the word, make it useless.

[A]

And they're not magic.

[B]

I have a question for you.

[A]

Firewall.

[B]

Can I flip it on his ear here?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

How do you feel about the flag burning stuff?

[A]

I actually, I think I covered this on Friday's episode.

[B]

I missed that. I haven't listened yet.

[A]

So you and I are really unique in comparison statistically to the percentage of population that's ever served. Not many people are ever actually issued an American flag. A lot of people. I mean, everybody has the ability to buy one. But there is a difference between being issued and empowered to wear that in the world and doing your best, to whatever degree you may think it is, to be a beacon of what the country stands for.

[B]

Yep, it's.

[A]

It is. I mean, they. They put that thing over our friends and coffins.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And, you know, it's the most heart wrenching thing to watch that. That movement of people from the flight line onto the aircraft. And it's. I. I don't have the vocabulary to describe it or the funerals associated with that. So it has an immense meaning to the me. And I don't know if I would be able to tolerate it if somebody were to do that in front of me. I've never been somewhere where somebody is actively burning a flag, but they absolutely have to maintain their right to do so.

[B]

Okay, well, so I was afraid we were about to be in disagreement, but I'm in agreement with you on that one.

[A]

Just, I mean, to me, the First Amendment is not about what I get to say or do. It's about what other people get to say and do. And it doesn't matter if it's. It turns my skin. I don't want anybody to do that. It would absolutely boil my blood. But the First Amendment, there's a reason. I think it starts off numero uno.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. I think it was an absolute mistake and it took away. And again, I do believe it's going to be challenged anyway. And I do think the checks. I think the checks and balances are working. You know, people are so incredibly worried about executive action this, that I'm like, look at the number of lawsuits and blocking and like, all these things that. That's the system working. I think it was a huge mistake, and I think it weakened the Constitution.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, you. The reason I asked the question is because you said the sounds that I make with my voice. Yeah. That's always made my thing about people who are anti First Amendment. It's like, so if I modulate my vocal cords and force air over them, there's ways that I can do that you won't approve of. Do tell. Because the same thing is. Goes with a flag. If I take clothes and sew it together in a certain way, you think I should go to jail for a year. If I set it ablaze, if I use my own shirts and jeans and I put a flag together and it looks like the US it's got the stars and stripes and the 50 stars and it's all that, and then I go outside and burn that. Now you're saying I could have burned it when it was all clothes in the house and you would have zero problem. But when I arrange them in a certain way, like I modulate my vocal cords in a certain way, now you have a problem and you're willing to put me in jail and my kids won't have a father and my life's turned upside down because I'm burning this item. Well, what if it's 49 stars and it's at the actual banner? What if it's 18 stars? What, there's 13 stars. Are you fine with that? And why aren't. Why not? Like what. Where does, like, me module? Like modulating my voice or sewing clothes or things together. I can make the most convincing American flag out of, you know, anything. When does it become illegal and why? And reductio ad like servum is like, you know, if I boil this down to its constituent elements, what are you saying is illegal about this act and why should I not be able to do it? It's a free American. Yeah. And so you're willing to jail me for that? And it's a slippery slope. You're willing to jail me for sewing things in a particular way and then setting them ablaze like that. To me is that it's fascism kind of, if you ask me, in a way. Because you're actually trying to control narratives.

[A]

My theory is especially because the flag is one thing of many. You know, people say the same thing about what they consider to be fascism or Nazism. You know, they should be deplatformed off of everything. And I'm not advocating that people should go watch that content. But I would rather know where those people are so I can be aware of that. Then push them off of everything, out of the spotlight and then I don't know what they're up to in the shadows. Yeah.

[B]

We have to be allowed to have bad ideas so that the bad idea can die and we don't die.

[A]

Yeah. Leave the idiots in the light so we can watch them. I don't want them to go scurry off amongst another group of idiots or.

[B]

Go in someone's basement.

[A]

Correct. I think more dangerous things happen there in private. Allowing them to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. I also think that most outrage is completely optional.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I probably, I mean people would probably say I have a flatter emotional range than most. I don't think that I do. I. I'm very emotionally impacted by a lot of things. But I try to keep it in check.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As opposed to going the other way and allowing them to drive the way I feel about things.

[B]

Yeah. And so that started with me when I was young. My mother was a recovering alcoholic and she would take me to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. And one, not much of it stuck with me other than like the crazy stories you'd hear. Like somebody would be like, like, you know, I went to bed somewhere drunk and woke up somewhere else or went on a three day bender.

[A]

Blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Like all of that crazy stuff hasn't woken up. Some of these stories were pretty crazy.

[A]

At least contemplate where am I?

[B]

Yeah. But they said this prayer, the serenity prayer, which was, you know, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, wisdom. Know the difference. That stuck with me. And my wife always says, like If I have one superpower, it's that I'm really good at. Just whenever that problem arises, she will stress out about everything to the nth degree. And there's goodness in that because a lot of times I'm not stressing about anything and it probably could get me killed or someone I love killed or something, or I'm not thinking something through. So she balances me in that way. But also it's just like I'm only going to think about the things that I can control. And I've gotten really good at it. I'm not saying it always happens, of course I still will freak out about things, but I usually can talk myself in two or three minutes into being like, no. What's the task at hand? What can I change in this situation?

[A]

Imagine if that was a taught skill in school.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[A]

Not that it makes it easier because I follow the same approach often, but repetition over time, it's like any other skill. Just because you try it the first time doesn't mean it's going to change the world. But a lifetime of being able to control yourself in that way and reorient yourself. I look at a lot of what's going on in the world, especially the division in the U.S. it's emotionally based, not logically based.

[B]

For sure, for sure. And. But you said about not getting, you know, fired up about, or you know, having. I don't remember your words, but not getting crazy about everything. You're react, you're in control of your reaction. Outrage is optional. In other words, you're not affected by thing like what happens in the world doesn't affect you. It's your reaction to things.

[A]

Yeah, well, I can't control what happens to me, but I have 100% control.

[B]

And how I my reaction. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Which is a tough pill to swallow because people will then say, well, life isn't fair. And the answer is, yeah, it's completely not fair.

[B]

Absolutely not fair. But we would want.

[A]

It has a merry go round and cotton candy.

[B]

Yeah, you wouldn't want fair. I've seen where they tried making things fair and it never works out.

[A]

Well, that's because you've never seen it applied correctly.

[B]

That's right. I think it was Jefferson said if men were angels, then we wouldn't need a constitution or a government.

[A]

Yeah. They also say if your mom had balls, she'd be your dad. So, I mean, you know, it's very circular.

[B]

Yep. Poop in one hand, wishing the other, see which one fills up fast.

[A]

What do you Got planned hunting wise this year. I mean, let's get on to the.

[B]

Importance all whitetail stuff this year. Like in the past, I focused on else.

[A]

Unacceptable. I know it's the only animal that should be hunted.

[B]

Well, I'm not. I don't have elk on the agenda for this year. I applied for Montana and I didn't get it.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have heard that the odds are are they greatly favor the out of staters.

[B]

Maybe that's for higher.

[A]

Maybe that's for a draw.

[B]

I also drew two years in a row before this.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So maybe they just figured it was my time to not draw. But mostly just whitetail stuff. I'm gonna be doing a pig hunt in Austin next week after or next the 9th, around the 10th or 12th or something like that.

[A]

Have you googled the temperature in Texas right now?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But unfortunately, a buddy of mine is gonna be out there at the same time that I want to meet up with.

[A]

All right.

[B]

And he. I'm trying to get him a bow and get him shooting. So I'm gonna take him out to archery country. My buddy Tyler runs archery country. We're gonna get him on a bow, get him shooting, and then just. He's never killed anything with a bow.

[A]

Hogs are a great first start.

[B]

Yeah, Great first start. And so we're gonna take him out, do some hog hunting, throw some meat on the grill, go check out the mothership. And you know, I've yet to go.

[A]

I've heard great things though.

[B]

It's fun. It's so much fun. I love the best part about it for me, obviously, the, you know, the comics are great and they're hilarious. Like Ron White.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Redneck comedy chore growing up was one of my favorites. Seeing him, obviously seeing Rogan. The funny thing about Rogan is, and you know him pretty well is I had never really enjoyed his comedy until I saw him live.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Then when I saw his lie, like, not that it was bad, it just wasn't like, you know, there is a difference. It wasn't just like top, top tier to me. But then when I saw him live, I was like rolling on the floor. And there's something about the. In person.

[A]

Yeah, it's way different than watching it on like Netflix.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And the other thing I really love about it is, and I think this is public knowledge. I'm 95% sure it is. You have to lock all your devices away before you go in there.

[A]

Oh, do they have. Is it a Faraday bag or just one? You can't have access to.

[B]

It's a small Faraday. I think it is a small Faraday. And then it locks.

[A]

They started doing those because of people filming stuff for their specials. Yeah, I think he was early on in that. I think he was having people do those for a few years.

[B]

I love it because I get really angry when people are looking at their phones or you're looking at somebody on stage, and there's 1500 phones. And I know I'm a disagreeable old man or whatever you want. My sons give me crap. My son gives me crap all the time because I'm always like, put your phone down. We're talking, damn it. And so going into that place, it's three hours of no phones, and you're just bullshitting with dudes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Last time I went was with Evan and Matt Micro sf.

[A]

Could he see over the seat in front of him?

[B]

They gave him. He was standing in the back. He had prime seats. No, he was out with us. But the Black Rifle guys were there trial, and we had done, like, a veterans adaptive shoot earlier in the day. And then Rogan invited all of us, so we got to go and watch. And it was like going in a time machine. Like, there's no phones anywhere. You're there for three or four hours, just drinks, BSing with guys, and it was like a breath of fresh air. I, like, didn't want to take my phone out of the case when I was getting out of there because I knew there was going to be 15 work messages, 20 text messages. Why can't I get ahold of you? And I was just like, man, I don't want to turn this thing back on. And that's. And I actually. That's where I met Logan, and I ended up doing the Black Rifle podcast with him. But we met out there, and Logan actually. So for some reason, when I see Logan before, he doesn't know this. So this is gonna be funny. I always thought, like, that guy kind of looks like a dick. I always.

[A]

He looks like a dick.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I always thought, what are the.

[A]

Technical descriptors of a dick? I don't know.

[B]

It's just my. I have a gut feeling about people, and before I met him, I was always like, that guy looks like a dick. Like, I wouldn't like him.

[A]

That's really book by its cover type stuff, Bill.

[B]

I know, but I'm usually right about these things, and I can tell you a list where I've been wrong. But I was wrong about Logan because we went to a barbecue. Like, I Don't remember what it's called, but it's like, Rogan's favorite barbecue place. Anyway, Evan had invited all of us to go and, like, do a dinner or something there.

[A]

How good was it? Good.

[B]

Phenomenal.

[A]

Texas does barbecue, right?

[B]

But this place is, like, I guess one of the better ones there know, it's like cream of the crop. And, you know. You know, I'm. My carriage is quite rotund. I could put away some food, and I just couldn't even walk when I got out of that place. But anyway, I saw Logan was sitting across from me, and he came up to me and he's like, hey, man, are you Bill Thompson? I'm like, this isn't how this is supposed to work. This is the opposite. I know who you are, sir. And he's like, I saw you on Andy's podcast. And he's like, I need to get you on my podcast. He's like, I loved that podcast. That was one of the best podcasts I've seen. And I was like, that's awesome.

[A]

Logan's the best. He was my roomie on the Triple seven.

[B]

But now, I mean, we talk all. I just spoke with him this morning. You know, he's got a young son.

[A]

Yeah. Loving it, too.

[B]

Met his wife, and we did the podcast and hung out there and shot some bows and hung out. And like, I. I'm not often wrong, and maybe it's my own bias, but usually when I derive that someone's a dick, I'm usually right. Not always, but sometimes. And I know when I've called it wrong, because I've called it wrong. I've in the past thought someone was cool, and they ended up being a dick, and it's cost me, and I've done the opposite. But anyway, Logan's, like, been one of the best guys, like, sends me books. We talk about, you know, all kinds of craziness. He's got wild ideas. He's like, you one of those guys where you can really have, you know, thoughtful, in depth conversations about things. And I usually wear people out whenever I want to talk about something because I want to talk to it and trace it all the way down to first principles. Yeah. Kind of like we did last time when I was here talking about, like, you know, this function of the Senate. You know, people's eyes glaze over 10 minutes into the conversation because they should.

[A]

Understand how it works.

[B]

Yeah. But with him, like, I, you know, we can talk for an hour and a half about something super obscure, and he's super. Well, Read about a lot of things that I've only recently gotten into. And so I was totally wrong about him. And he's a great dude.

[A]

Logan's the best. It's funny what you said about the phones. One of the Jiu Jitsu coaches I train a bunch with is Henry Akins, who has been training with Maynard from TOOL for years. And I've had the chance now to go to a couple cool Tool concerts. And Maynard actually gets out there. He'll be like, listen up, you retards. Put all your phones away. He's like, I'll let you film the last song. Yeah, so don't worry. You're gonna. He'll scotch his show if he sees people up there. Yes, the last show.

[B]

See Counter Revolution.

[A]

The last show I'm at, a guy comes up to film, but he had his light on, and he's just like, is this your first time?

[B]

Is it your dad?

[A]

God, he is.

[B]

I can see your dad out there with the phone and the light on.

[A]

He is the worst. We put life 6, 360 on his phone just because he's getting to that age. Like, I need to know where this crazy son of a is. But then he'll show up at the house, and I'll. I'll pull up the Life360. I'm like, dad, where's your phone? He goes, I don't know. I haven't seen it all day.

[B]

Like, I kind of love that.

[A]

I do, too, a little bit. But also, you know, sometimes it's good to be able to call him, just coordinate stuff. My sister's trying to get a hold of him.

[B]

We got one of these watches for my daughter that you can text message and track our location on.

[A]

I think he'd wear a watch, just.

[B]

Stick it in, like, his wallet or something.

[A]

Trust me, he doesn't. He has the. You want to talk about a Costanza wallet? It is. I was. It's probably as thick as that green pouch.

[B]

You can find some room for some CTL in there. Little tracking, tagging, locating.

[A]

I'm surprised it doesn't give him low back problems sitting on that thing. It's like, yeah, but I love the. That Maynard will stop a song and call somebody out. And then at the end, he'll be like, guys, we don't do encores. This is the last song. You can pull your phones out now if you want to.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

And he'll say, I think it's stupid. I think you guys are idiots, but. And then it's a sea of you can see the screen. Everybody you're behind, you're just watching their screen.

[B]

Yep. I'm an idiot.

[A]

Yeah, everybody does it.

[B]

I love Tool. I've never been to one of their concerts, but I listened to them for many years and they're awesome.

[A]

I have not been to a lot of concerts in my life. I think I've seen them live now three times just because of Henry. I happen to be with him when Maynard's in town one day. It was actually really cool. He invited us. It was in Salt Lake. We went and did some Jiu Jitsu before.

[B]

And he's a beast. Right. Isn't he really good at Jiu Jitsu?

[A]

So he's really. And again, I am not anybody to rate anybody's Jiu Jitsu. He, I think, has to be very, very careful with who he trains with. And like, this was before he was about to sing. Like, I'm not gonna go. Like, you know, I mean, you roll with the wrong person. They might grab and try to cross collar him on his.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So he's super cautious. We just did positional stuff, which I think has to be the case for him until he has an immense amount of trust in his training partner.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

Because that guy still has to go do his job later in the night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've never rolled with a guy full speed. I actually wouldn't want to because I would feel too nervous that I would even accidentally do something that would in any way, shape or form prohibit him from doing what he is.

[B]

I just think I heard him on a podcast talking about it and you know, when you hear some talk about Jiu Jitsu, it's obvious whether they're. He may well be on it.

[A]

I have no idea. Yeah, we got to go train for a bit. We went out to dinner and then went back to the show. We had like 10th row, dead center. It tells what I learned after the first time going to that show. Earplugs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can still hear it just as well. But I could hear for the following days.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

They sound identical live. Oh, my God.

[B]

That's so awesome. I love that. Whenever bands sound the same live as.

[A]

They do, there's a clip of him singing at Ozzy's last concert where they pulled all the music away and it's just his vocals. Dude, that guy rips. Yeah, absolutely rips.

[B]

I don't think I do a workout without having Tool somewhere on the playlist in the background.

[A]

It was. It was underneath my peltors many a night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the way in on the bird.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Metallica. Ride the lightning for, like, one minute out for him.

[B]

The bell tolls. God.

[A]

46 and 2, though, on true Final.

[B]

I also loved God only because we're on a podcast. I'm gonna jack this up.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I'm gonna get so mad at myself right now.

[A]

You'll remember as soon as we're done.

[B]

Perfect circle. That his, like, counter band or whatever.

[A]

You want to call it. I never got deeper.

[B]

I've never.

[A]

They're all a little bit of a different flavor. I. I can appreciate almost any type of music, but Toole is a staple, and I got introduced to it my first platoon. It was actually mandatory that you listen to Tool. There were some people who were just devout.

[B]

Sounds like some good dudes.

[A]

Yeah. He's only a little bit taller than Evan, really. And Evan could be standing under this table right now, and he wouldn't be hitting his head.

[B]

You do not let him get free of that at all. Like, almost every time he's mentioned.

[A]

Have you ever seen the man?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He had to get a waiver to join the military. He's 3 foot 9.

[B]

Did he really have to get a waiver?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Okay. That's just conjecture.

[A]

I've been making up things about him to include founding his company. That's how it all started. I think that's when he and I really became close friends. I'd be on airplanes wearing black rifle shirts, and people would say, oh, man, I love your coffee. I'm like, yeah, I started a company for people like you. And then I, of course, told him about it. And then it started coming up in board meetings, like, hey, Andy's telling people that he's the founder and CEO of Black Rifle and Stolen Valor. Everyone would say, well, yeah, he is. And they're like, stop. You can't say things. So we had to back it off a little bit.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

So only whitetail. We got to get you back on. You've killed a note before, right?

[B]

Only with a rifle, and it was a cow. I've not killed a bull. Yeah, I shot. Took a shot at one two years ago. And then last year. I don't. I don't think so. Last year, we did the helicopter drop.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Video has not been released yet, so hold on.

[A]

I'm already. Vision board for 26 needs to include a bull elk.

[B]

Let's go. I'm ready. Yeah, I mean, so we got to.

[A]

Put in for the Montana tag. I think it's in March or April. It's an extended period of time.

[B]

I mean, I put in for it every year, like I said. But I was thinking about putting in for harder units to draw too. There are other units that are more productive that are a little harder to draw. And then the general tags like a 50. 50.

[A]

Not to interrupt you because I. Did you guys jump in or did the heli land?

[B]

Heli landed.

[A]

Okay. Because I obviously am now thinking about doing exactly the same thing because may or may not have access to one. How. I'm assuming you guys chartered one to do it. Do they have any hesitation in doing it?

[B]

A couple of them did.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's not apparently frowned upon.

[B]

Well, apparently there's a certification to. I could misquote this. I'm going to speak as well as I remember the subject. Apparently there's a certification or some. Or some type of license or grant that you get from the state to land on blm. And you have to land on blm, you have to land on like a road. So wherever the BLM is, you have to find a two track road. Okay. The helicopter can land on the two track road.

[A]

Only.

[B]

Only. Okay. And then can't stay for any amount of time. And then you can just throw your stuff out and leave. So now that doesn't mean you can't be 10 or 12ft above and then.

[A]

Just, you know, I mean, you could be a foot.

[B]

Yeah. And just jump in.

[A]

I was gonna say 10 or 12ft. Why are you trying to blow your knees out?

[B]

No, I know, but, you know, practice.

[A]

God. Man. Look, get it down to the ground.

[B]

Yeah. So. But we went to a spot right after we did our last podcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That we had been looking at for a long time that was public. BLM surrounded by private.

[A]

That's the move. And that's why I'm asking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so what. But what ended up happening was like the second or third day, the wildfires had switched their trajectory and were coming to our spot. So we were getting ready to move on. On some elk. Elk. We, you know, the first couple days we just spent scouting, walking around.

[A]

Well, there's a 24 hour cool off. Right. So you're not allowed to Hunt within 24.

[B]

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yep. That's right. We. We got in there the evening before and we didn't hunt till the next time. Second day, same time, something like that. But we, by the time we had gotten a bearing, found out where the elk were, the pilot got a hold of us and said, hey, the wildfires are coming that way. And it was smoky, so we knew. So he ended up coming and getting us and we left and we just had to do like, like non scout. Like we went and hunted places where we hadn't scouted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We didn't know the score. We didn't know where the bulls were. And I think Drew, my buddy, got in on some elk. I got close but we didn't get it done. So I'm not even sure if they're going to release the video or not for sure. They might just because of the novelty of using a helicopter.

[A]

Sometimes the failure aspect is even better.

[B]

Yeah. And they do do a lot. Like they released a video of me two years ago where I messed up on a bullet like 50 yards and I got so much shit in the comments.

[A]

But yeah, welcome to being a hunter. Yeah, it was called killing. That's what they.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. People, people have this. Hunters especially have this thing where they are so quick to criticize people. Yeah. It's probably got something to do with they've had their own problems or whatever that makes them feel better or self petting, whatever it is. But we're one of the most catty groups and I'm a hunter so I can say that. Like they will just crap all over people because there's like. It's a long story, but long story short is, is it easier to try to replicate what someone else is doing to achieve success or just cut them down when they fail? Like it's easier to just cut them down when they fail. So instead of.

[A]

Does that say about you as a person, I wonder?

[B]

Yeah, and there's a lot of crappy.

[A]

People out there who takes the time though to purposely spread negativity on a video that honestly has nothing to do with them. Like the universe will not care where the.

[B]

Well, they'll find a way to tie it to them and make it about them. And so what had happened was I was drawn down on the. On the bull, made a cow call, it looked. And as soon as I released the arrow, it took a giant step forward and I hit him in the back end. I should have been closer. A million things I could have done differently. But anyway, I didn't kill the bull. And then this last year we got close but didn't get any shots. So I don't know if they'll release a video or not. Maybe they will. They do release a lot of videos where there's no kill.

[A]

At least that's reflective of actual hunting.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And like not putting, you know, a Jesus standard on hunting Is pretty important in my. Yeah, my capacity.

[A]

Your average hunter is far more unsuccessful than successful.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

But most hunting films or stories don't necessarily show that.

[B]

Yeah, and that's, you know, the, the money comes with the, you know, harvesting the animal or whatever for a lot of people. But they release a ton of videos where they don't kill. And I think it's just important to show people not having success so that people don't just like with social media, everyone posts their best day.

[A]

I just post pictures of a dog.

[B]

Yeah, you do.

[A]

But honestly, little fur missile, he's kind of some of the best part of my day.

[B]

Yeah, mine too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep. My little point. I've got pointer Leo and he's like always like down to do. Anytime I stand up, he's like, I'm in. Let's go.

[A]

That dog's down to tear shit up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think he has any idea that he might. Might be 7 inches off the ground from toes to top of his back. I think in his mind he thinks he's a Great Dane. But then I don't understand. It's like you haven't figured out you're looking up at the entire world. I think Great Danes are looking down on stuff that just doesn't give a shit.

[B]

I love dogs. Dogs are the best.

[A]

They are indeed.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

What do you want to close out with? We've been in a couple hours. I don't even know what the hell we talked about.

[B]

I think I'm not sure what we talked about either.

[A]

Every issue under the sun, I mean.

[B]

You know, people download the app, gave it a look. If they like it, if they hate it, please let me know. Either I do all the customer service. It's super important to me. Like I told you before, my role as a product owner. I still spend two hours a morning doing customer service answering people. It's just super important to me to do that. So if people have gripes or compliments or we help them get on their first deer or shared in a father son hunt. Those are my favorite messages to get. So let us know there. And maybe we'll be doing elk next year this time. Something like that.

[A]

Board that out.

[B]

Are you planning on any elk this year?

[A]

Yep. I have a tag in Utah and my tags for Montana.

[B]

Awesome. Yeah.

[A]

So it's a guarantee for us for a non draw district. We can get a general. It's a combo tag and elk and deer.

[B]

Yeah. It's another reason to move to Montana.

[A]

It is.

[B]

So yeah, I mean, that that's what we're. And then I've got whitetail mostly this year, and then we're doing some traveling, couple more podcasts that I'll be doing, and we're having a great year, which is really what I need right now, just because we're. We've really expanded the feature set and reinvested a lot of money back into the company, like that UAV update and the other stuff that we're doing. So just come out and check it out and hit me up on social media. And I love hearing from people. And thanks for having me on.

[A]

I'll try to do a better job of next time I talk to Michael about eating Snickers upside down. I'll try to throw a Spartan 4 jab in there.

[B]

I was dying when you guys were talking about that, and I remember listening.

[A]

To it because I just favorite placement.

[B]

I generally listen to your podcast whenever I have. I have to drive, usually, like, either up to D.C. or something. So I usually rip your podcast listening in the truck. And as soon as that conversation started, I was like, please be a Spartan for like. Because if there had been a Spartan Forge ad after that, I would have cut that whole reel and said, here's like, this is the marketing this company's made of.

[A]

This is what we need.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, like upside down Snickers.

[A]

And they didn't even know what I was talking about. Have you even figured out yet what I mean by that? No, I mean, I know what you mean, but. But it falls flat because I'm allergic to nuts, so. These nuts are just, like, all nuts.

[B]

I was waiting for it, but I was, like, praying. I was like, please be a Spartan Forge dad after this conversation so I can cut this whole thing up.

[A]

I mean, technically, you could cut one from a previous episode and just overlay it there so you could create what you were looking for.

[B]

Yeah, I could create it, but it wouldn't be genuine. Just the next time, you know, if you're going to run a Spartan Forge ad, just give me something really spicy beforehand.

[A]

You can't force magic to happen.

[B]

Some of the highlights of my day are you riding on Michael and giving him a hard time so people think.

[A]

I'm too hard on him. He lives a charmed life. I even picked up the mess for him that I filmed that day. You disgusting. Yeah, he cleaned up after me. I did. I mean, nobody else was going to.

[B]

I think a lot of people would kill for his position. I think people think you're too hard on him. I don't Think so.

[A]

The world is not ready for the weapon that you'll be.

[B]

I'm still a little baby.

[A]

We got some advice for him recently. He needs to stop messing around, going to places like Japan. He needs to go to Australia, apparently.

[B]

For what, the women?

[A]

Yep, the old Gold Coast.

[B]

Stay out of Alice Springs. It's my only advice to you.

[A]

I don't even know what that means. I don't know either.

[B]

Middle of the country where you're like nine hours from the ocean and.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it sounds horrible. So what do you think? After Japan, you can hit Australia?

[B]

Yeah, maybe. We'll see.

[A]

That is the most non committal answer a human being has ever given.

[B]

Austria is a pretty good one too. You should check out. I actually do want to go to Austria.

[A]

Do you know that there is a desk at the main airport in Austria just dedicated to people who realize they're no longer in Australia?

[B]

I think I saw that. But is that true?

[A]

I feel like that's not true.

[B]

How can you make that.

[A]

I'm sorry, do you not navigate the same people?

[B]

Yeah, actually I say that. And today. Today I was getting on the flight to come here. Yeah. And I was bored. It was in Chicago, coming here, and a guy was in line with me for like. Like 30 minutes. It took forever to board the groups in front of us. Yeah, I was like, group three or four. It took about 40 minutes to get to my group, which United. It should only take about 10 minutes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We got to the front. He was. Had a ticket for New Jersey.

[A]

And that's another thing. Like Kalispell.

[B]

It was right in front, like in any. It was written everywhere.

[A]

Didn't they scan his ticket at some point?

[B]

Well, that's when they told him. Yeah, he was being indignant. They were like, hey, sir, this is. This is for New Jersey. And he's like, like, well, yeah, I'm going to New Jersey. And I was like, oh, my God, I would.

[A]

Is that.

[B]

Now I believe you.

[A]

Just get on, get on. Let me know how New Jersey is. All right, on that note, Spartan Forge AI the best aviation app ever. Not to hide for aviation.

[B]

Thank you, Andy.

[A]

Yeah, of course, marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention. You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ads, go to Libsynads. Com. That's L I B S Y N ads.com today.