Cleared Hot Podcast: Episode 412 Summary

Guest: Dave Berke (Marine Corps F/A-18/F-35 Fighter Pilot, Top Gun Instructor, Ground FAC in Ramadi, Echelon Front Leadership)
Host: Andy Stumpf (Retired Navy SEAL)
Date: October 20, 2025
Theme: From Fighter Pilot to Fighting on the Ground in Ramadi – Leadership, Humility, and Lessons from Two Careers

Overview

In this episode, Andy Stumpf and Dave Berke explore Berke’s unique journey from flying Marine F/A-18s and F-35s (and instructing at Top Gun) to serving as a forward air controller (FAC) on the ground in the thick of the Iraq War in Ramadi. They dive into the technical, emotional, and ethical dimensions of combat aviation, leadership in and out of the military, learning from failure, and the transition to civilian life and teaching leadership principles. The conversation is candid, humorous, and honest. Both draw lessons from their military experiences and discuss how to impart them, through writing, parenting, and professional development.

Key Discussion Topics & Insights

1. Fighter Pilot Experience and Top Gun

• Coolest and Most Difficult Flying (01:17–05:19)

  • Coolest: "Landing on a boat. It looks like a stamp out there. It’s crazy. The Navy makes really hard things look routine." – Dave ([01:51])
  • Most technical/dangerous: "Night low altitude training on NVGs at 300ft and 450 knots. No ground-looking radar." ([03:19]) "It’s kind of wild. Flying really low at night on NVGs by yourself is crazy." – Dave ([05:19])
  • Dogfighting: Extensive discussion about fighter pilot training, geometry, G-load management, real dogfighting vs. modern missile combat, and why fundamentals matter.

• Top Gun Instruction (39:43)

  • "It was awesome. The best flying you can do, the best environment. You’re training people to go to war. The skill of teaching—that’s what differentiates a Top Gun graduate." – Dave ([39:43], [42:12])
  • On force multiplication: "The expectation is you go back and scale [your lessons] to the fleet." ([41:30])

• Fighter Community Culture & Technology (29:57–32:36)

  • Insights on F-22 and F-35 advancements, like helmet-mounted HUD and seeing through the jet’s skin ("distributed aperture system"), and what the sixth-gen fighter will bring.

2. Transition to Ground Combat: Ramadi

• From Pilot to FAC (63:13–67:44)

  • Dave wanted "to be a Marine" so volunteered for a FAC role in Ramadi.
  • Highlights the complexity of coordinating close air support in urban battlefields: "Big to small can be real tough." – Andy ([68:44])
  • Dave: "Who better to do that than an F-18 pilot? I was literally talking to old squadron mates doing Type 1 gun runs in F-18s." ([65:20])
  • Mutual respect between pilots, JTACs, and SEAL/Army teams.
  • "I was a fighter pilot that got dropped down in the middle of downtown Ramadi in 2006... I was in over my head, man." ([67:10])

• First Experiences Under Fire (71:51)

  • "Terrifying. It was awful. Once the first time you're in a firefight, bullets cracking ... it was just so persistent [there]. I learned to operate well outside my comfort zone, but I'd be lying if I told you I got used to it.” ([71:51])
  • Importance of humility and relying on others.

3. Cultivating Leadership and Humility

• Learning from Failure & Ego (78:59–80:38)

  • Dave: "The more difficult things I did in the military, certainly that combat deployment, taught me the greatest lessons in humility. I realized I am not the center of the world." ([79:43])
  • Both men discuss compressed learning (“a decade’s worth of experience smashed into six months”).

• Translating Military Leadership to Civilian Life (86:48–93:43)

  • Andy: "Leadership exceeds the capability of all the weapons. But the mistake is thinking that the SEALs or the military always have it figured out. The best and worst leaders I ever worked for wore the same uniform."
  • Civilian leadership (e.g., running a Montana coffee shop) is often harder: "If I led baristas the way I led young SEALs, I’d have no-call/no-shows." – Andy ([91:41])
  • Both emphasize leadership isn’t about imposing your will, but building relationships, trust, and “leadership capital” ("deposits and withdrawals", [100:09]).

4. Books, Writing, and Passing It Forward

• The Need to Lead & Writing Process (106:21–109:57)

  • Dave’s book is the third in the “Extreme Ownership” series (after Jocko’s and Leif’s books), focused on ten lessons primarily rooted in personal failure and the importance of both mindset and action. "If you have lessons that could help others and don’t share them, you’re committing a mortal sin," Jocko told him. ([107:08])
  • Storytelling methodology: Each chapter is a story of failure, the lesson, and its real-world application.

• On Parenting and Letting Others Learn (113:38–116:51)

  • Both struggle with how much to “save” their kids from mistakes. "There’s an Icelandic saying—burnt baby doesn’t touch the stove anymore. There’s some truth to that." – Andy ([114:23])
  • Books aim to reduce the pain’s “amplitude,” not eliminate it. ([119:05])
  • On writing about family/parenting: "The things you learn for yourself are much more impactful than what someone imposes on you." – Dave ([116:41])

5. Echelon Front & Modern Leadership Training

• Scaling Leadership (120:44–125:14)

  • Company has grown to 50 people, 17 instructors, from Leif & Jocko as a two-man show.
  • Dave is the “Chief Development Officer,” focused on developing teaching methodology so "the lessons can resonate from an 18-year-old construction worker to a 65-year-old CEO."
  • Leadership principles taught are timeless and universal, but have to be communicated in different ways to reach different audiences.

• Evolution and Future of Echelon Front (123:05–125:14)

  • As time goes on, less focus on specific battle stories; more universal application, especially in family, relationships, and other domains.
  • "Foundations never change. You don’t ever stop doing the fundamental things." – Dave

6. The Fundamentals: Across Aviation, Combat, and Life

• Aviation, Jiu Jitsu, and Fundamentals (126:19–130:27)
  • Both relate the necessity of constant practice of fundamentals—whether it's flying, fighting, or leadership.
  • "I got into rotary wing aviation. The difference in performance between the guy who’s always reviewing the fundamentals and those chasing flash is massive." – Andy ([126:19])
  • "It all goes back to the fundamentals. If you get away from those, you struggle. Period." – Dave ([130:08])

7. Personal Reflections and Legacy

• What’s Next (144:30–147:48)
  • Dave is focused on personal/family application of the lessons he's learned—accelerating his kids’ lessons and reducing their pain—but letting them learn on their own.
  • Andy: "If I can find a way to do something with those experiences, I feel obligated to try." ([120:26])

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Fighter Pilots:
  “Landing on a boat. Looks like a stamp. The Navy makes nearly impossible things look routine.” – Dave ([01:51])
• On Dogfighting:
  "Your description is spot on. On paper, the geometry is easy. In real time, under G, with tiny margins for error, it’s hard. If you see it, it’s already too late.” – Dave ([14:17])
• On translating lessons:
  “Leadership is tough. It’s not just about telling people what to do. It’s about building relationships and trust and depositing into that bank account. Because once you hit zero, it’s nearly impossible to put it back.” – Andy ([100:09])
• On Top Gun:
  "The differentiator for a Top Gun graduate isn’t just being able to fly—it’s being able to teach.” – Dave ([42:12])
• On humility and combat:
  “I learned not to be so full of myself. My ego has always been a challenge for me. The more difficult things I did, the more I realized I’m not the center of the world.” – Dave ([79:19])
• On leadership outside the military:
  “Best and worst leaders I ever worked for wore the same uniform. And in the SEAL teams, the mission is more important than anything, so people wouldn’t let a bad leader fail. I’ve never seen that in a civilian job.” – Andy ([86:48])
• About writing his book:
  "Every chapter is a straight-up failure. I knew, if it was going to work, it had to be about the biggest mistakes. That’s where I learned the biggest lessons." – Dave ([106:08])
• On legacy:
  “If I can help people accelerate their timeline a little and lower the magnitude of their pain—especially my kids—that’s a win for me.” – Dave ([145:17])

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:17–05:19] F/A-18/Fighter flying – “Coolest Thing” and “Most Dangerous Task”
• [39:43–44:27] Top Gun instructor experience and philosophy
• [63:13–67:44] Transition to ground FAC in Ramadi, partnership with SEALs/JTACs
• [71:51–73:48] First firefights and humility
• [78:59–80:38] Humility, Ego, and Learning from Failure
• [86:48–93:43] Translating military lessons into civilian leadership
• [100:09–104:18] Leadership Capital: Deposits, Withdrawals, and Trust
• [106:21–109:57] Structure of the leadership book: failures as lessons
• [120:44–125:14] Echelon Front: scaling, mission, and evolution
• [126:19–130:27] Mastery of fundamentals in aviation, fighting, and leadership
• [144:30–147:48] Legacy, parenting, and helping the next generation

Memorable Moments

• Andy’s self-deprecating humor about his own leadership and military misadventures.
• Dave’s honesty about getting "crushed in the cockpit" and being humbled on the ground.
• The pair reflecting, with both pride and skepticism, on the "war hero" narrative and using combat as a metric of value.
• Multiple references to movies (Top Gun, Act of Valor) and skepticism about how Hollywood depicts leadership and tactics.
• Both discussing the tension between wanting to spare their kids pain but needing to let them learn (“burnt baby doesn’t touch the stove anymore”).
• Dave’s description of his book as "ten chapters, each a story about a big mistake."
• Reflections on how both military and civilian leadership lessons are timeless, but must be adapted for every audience.

Further Resources / Where to Find

• Dave’s book: The Need to Lead (find via Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or www.echelonfront.com)
• Echelon Front: leadership development, events, training, online programs
• Dave’s socials: Most active on LinkedIn and Instagram (@DavidRBurke)

Tone:
Honest, irreverent, humble, and direct; a blend of military candor, dark humor, and mentorship.

Summary for the Uninitiated:
If you haven’t listened, this is an in-depth, very human conversation about extraordinary military experiences and what to do with the lessons they provide. Berke and Stumpf are unfiltered, introspective, and often funny as they talk ego, failure, learning, teaching, and how not to screw up your kids while trying to make their path easier. You’ll get leadership insights, combat stories, and a sober take on success, failure, and the importance of fundamentals—whether you fly F-35s or run a coffee shop in Montana.