Episode 412 - Dave Berke - From fighter pilot to fighting on the ground in Ramadi

Summary

Cleared Hot Podcast: Episode 412 Summary

Guest: Dave Berke (Marine Corps F/A-18/F-35 Fighter Pilot, Top Gun Instructor, Ground FAC in Ramadi, Echelon Front Leadership)
Host: Andy Stumpf (Retired Navy SEAL)
Date: October 20, 2025
Theme: From Fighter Pilot to Fighting on the Ground in Ramadi – Leadership, Humility, and Lessons from Two Careers

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Overview

In this episode, Andy Stumpf and Dave Berke explore Berke’s unique journey from flying Marine F/A-18s and F-35s (and instructing at Top Gun) to serving as a forward air controller (FAC) on the ground in the thick of the Iraq War in Ramadi. They dive into the technical, emotional, and ethical dimensions of combat aviation, leadership in and out of the military, learning from failure, and the transition to civilian life and teaching leadership principles. The conversation is candid, humorous, and honest. Both draw lessons from their military experiences and discuss how to impart them, through writing, parenting, and professional development.

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Key Discussion Topics & Insights

1. Fighter Pilot Experience and Top Gun

• Coolest and Most Difficult Flying (01:17–05:19)

  • Coolest: "Landing on a boat. It looks like a stamp out there. It’s crazy. The Navy makes really hard things look routine." – Dave ([01:51])
  • Most technical/dangerous: "Night low altitude training on NVGs at 300ft and 450 knots. No ground-looking radar." ([03:19]) "It’s kind of wild. Flying really low at night on NVGs by yourself is crazy." – Dave ([05:19])
  • Dogfighting: Extensive discussion about fighter pilot training, geometry, G-load management, real dogfighting vs. modern missile combat, and why fundamentals matter.

• Top Gun Instruction (39:43)

  • "It was awesome. The best flying you can do, the best environment. You’re training people to go to war. The skill of teaching—that’s what differentiates a Top Gun graduate." – Dave ([39:43], [42:12])
  • On force multiplication: "The expectation is you go back and scale [your lessons] to the fleet." ([41:30])

• Fighter Community Culture & Technology (29:57–32:36)

  • Insights on F-22 and F-35 advancements, like helmet-mounted HUD and seeing through the jet’s skin ("distributed aperture system"), and what the sixth-gen fighter will bring.

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2. Transition to Ground Combat: Ramadi

• From Pilot to FAC (63:13–67:44)

  • Dave wanted "to be a Marine" so volunteered for a FAC role in Ramadi.
  • Highlights the complexity of coordinating close air support in urban battlefields: "Big to small can be real tough." – Andy ([68:44])
  • Dave: "Who better to do that than an F-18 pilot? I was literally talking to old squadron mates doing Type 1 gun runs in F-18s." ([65:20])
  • Mutual respect between pilots, JTACs, and SEAL/Army teams.
  • "I was a fighter pilot that got dropped down in the middle of downtown Ramadi in 2006... I was in over my head, man." ([67:10])

• First Experiences Under Fire (71:51)

  • "Terrifying. It was awful. Once the first time you're in a firefight, bullets cracking ... it was just so persistent [there]. I learned to operate well outside my comfort zone, but I'd be lying if I told you I got used to it.” ([71:51])
  • Importance of humility and relying on others.

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3. Cultivating Leadership and Humility

• Learning from Failure & Ego (78:59–80:38)

  • Dave: "The more difficult things I did in the military, certainly that combat deployment, taught me the greatest lessons in humility. I realized I am not the center of the world." ([79:43])
  • Both men discuss compressed learning (“a decade’s worth of experience smashed into six months”).

• Translating Military Leadership to Civilian Life (86:48–93:43)

  • Andy: "Leadership exceeds the capability of all the weapons. But the mistake is thinking that the SEALs or the military always have it figured out. The best and worst leaders I ever worked for wore the same uniform."
  • Civilian leadership (e.g., running a Montana coffee shop) is often harder: "If I led baristas the way I led young SEALs, I’d have no-call/no-shows." – Andy ([91:41])
  • Both emphasize leadership isn’t about imposing your will, but building relationships, trust, and “leadership capital” ("deposits and withdrawals", [100:09]).

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4. Books, Writing, and Passing It Forward

• The Need to Lead & Writing Process (106:21–109:57)

  • Dave’s book is the third in the “Extreme Ownership” series (after Jocko’s and Leif’s books), focused on ten lessons primarily rooted in personal failure and the importance of both mindset and action. "If you have lessons that could help others and don’t share them, you’re committing a mortal sin," Jocko told him. ([107:08])
  • Storytelling methodology: Each chapter is a story of failure, the lesson, and its real-world application.

• On Parenting and Letting Others Learn (113:38–116:51)

  • Both struggle with how much to “save” their kids from mistakes. "There’s an Icelandic saying—burnt baby doesn’t touch the stove anymore. There’s some truth to that." – Andy ([114:23])
  • Books aim to reduce the pain’s “amplitude,” not eliminate it. ([119:05])
  • On writing about family/parenting: "The things you learn for yourself are much more impactful than what someone imposes on you." – Dave ([116:41])

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5. Echelon Front & Modern Leadership Training

• Scaling Leadership (120:44–125:14)

  • Company has grown to 50 people, 17 instructors, from Leif & Jocko as a two-man show.
  • Dave is the “Chief Development Officer,” focused on developing teaching methodology so "the lessons can resonate from an 18-year-old construction worker to a 65-year-old CEO."
  • Leadership principles taught are timeless and universal, but have to be communicated in different ways to reach different audiences.

• Evolution and Future of Echelon Front (123:05–125:14)

  • As time goes on, less focus on specific battle stories; more universal application, especially in family, relationships, and other domains.
  • "Foundations never change. You don’t ever stop doing the fundamental things." – Dave

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6. The Fundamentals: Across Aviation, Combat, and Life

• Aviation, Jiu Jitsu, and Fundamentals (126:19–130:27)
  • Both relate the necessity of constant practice of fundamentals—whether it's flying, fighting, or leadership.
  • "I got into rotary wing aviation. The difference in performance between the guy who’s always reviewing the fundamentals and those chasing flash is massive." – Andy ([126:19])
  • "It all goes back to the fundamentals. If you get away from those, you struggle. Period." – Dave ([130:08])

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7. Personal Reflections and Legacy

• What’s Next (144:30–147:48)
  • Dave is focused on personal/family application of the lessons he's learned—accelerating his kids’ lessons and reducing their pain—but letting them learn on their own.
  • Andy: "If I can find a way to do something with those experiences, I feel obligated to try." ([120:26])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Fighter Pilots:
  “Landing on a boat. Looks like a stamp. The Navy makes nearly impossible things look routine.” – Dave ([01:51])
• On Dogfighting:
  "Your description is spot on. On paper, the geometry is easy. In real time, under G, with tiny margins for error, it’s hard. If you see it, it’s already too late.” – Dave ([14:17])
• On translating lessons:
  “Leadership is tough. It’s not just about telling people what to do. It’s about building relationships and trust and depositing into that bank account. Because once you hit zero, it’s nearly impossible to put it back.” – Andy ([100:09])
• On Top Gun:
  "The differentiator for a Top Gun graduate isn’t just being able to fly—it’s being able to teach.” – Dave ([42:12])
• On humility and combat:
  “I learned not to be so full of myself. My ego has always been a challenge for me. The more difficult things I did, the more I realized I’m not the center of the world.” – Dave ([79:19])
• On leadership outside the military:
  “Best and worst leaders I ever worked for wore the same uniform. And in the SEAL teams, the mission is more important than anything, so people wouldn’t let a bad leader fail. I’ve never seen that in a civilian job.” – Andy ([86:48])
• About writing his book:
  "Every chapter is a straight-up failure. I knew, if it was going to work, it had to be about the biggest mistakes. That’s where I learned the biggest lessons." – Dave ([106:08])
• On legacy:
  “If I can help people accelerate their timeline a little and lower the magnitude of their pain—especially my kids—that’s a win for me.” – Dave ([145:17])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:17–05:19] F/A-18/Fighter flying – “Coolest Thing” and “Most Dangerous Task”
• [39:43–44:27] Top Gun instructor experience and philosophy
• [63:13–67:44] Transition to ground FAC in Ramadi, partnership with SEALs/JTACs
• [71:51–73:48] First firefights and humility
• [78:59–80:38] Humility, Ego, and Learning from Failure
• [86:48–93:43] Translating military lessons into civilian leadership
• [100:09–104:18] Leadership Capital: Deposits, Withdrawals, and Trust
• [106:21–109:57] Structure of the leadership book: failures as lessons
• [120:44–125:14] Echelon Front: scaling, mission, and evolution
• [126:19–130:27] Mastery of fundamentals in aviation, fighting, and leadership
• [144:30–147:48] Legacy, parenting, and helping the next generation

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Memorable Moments

• Andy’s self-deprecating humor about his own leadership and military misadventures.
• Dave’s honesty about getting "crushed in the cockpit" and being humbled on the ground.
• The pair reflecting, with both pride and skepticism, on the "war hero" narrative and using combat as a metric of value.
• Multiple references to movies (Top Gun, Act of Valor) and skepticism about how Hollywood depicts leadership and tactics.
• Both discussing the tension between wanting to spare their kids pain but needing to let them learn (“burnt baby doesn’t touch the stove anymore”).
• Dave’s description of his book as "ten chapters, each a story about a big mistake."
• Reflections on how both military and civilian leadership lessons are timeless, but must be adapted for every audience.

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Further Resources / Where to Find

• Dave’s book: The Need to Lead (find via Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or www.echelonfront.com)
• Echelon Front: leadership development, events, training, online programs
• Dave’s socials: Most active on LinkedIn and Instagram (@DavidRBurke)

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Tone:
Honest, irreverent, humble, and direct; a blend of military candor, dark humor, and mentorship.

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Summary for the Uninitiated:
If you haven’t listened, this is an in-depth, very human conversation about extraordinary military experiences and what to do with the lessons they provide. Berke and Stumpf are unfiltered, introspective, and often funny as they talk ego, failure, learning, teaching, and how not to screw up your kids while trying to make their path easier. You’ll get leadership insights, combat stories, and a sober take on success, failure, and the importance of fundamentals—whether you fly F-35s or run a coffee shop in Montana.

Transcript

[David Burke]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts. Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage? Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana. Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's designed to be the most powerful.

[David Burke]

Iphone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system. Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network. Nice. Je free. You heard them.

[Andy Stumpf]

T mobile is the best place to.

[David Burke]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.

[Andy Stumpf]

Us with eligible traded in any condition.

[David Burke]

So what are we having for lunch? Dude, my work here is done. The 24 month bill credit on experience beyond for well qualified customers, plus tax and 35 device connection charge. Credit send and balance due. If you pay off earlier, Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs 1099.99 A new line minimum 100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile Network in the US based.

[Andy Stumpf]

On analysis by Oklahoma Speed Test Intelligence Data 182025 Visit T mobile.com okay, got the red smoke.

[David Burke]

Sun runs north of south, west of the smoke. West of the smoke.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay, copy.

[David Burke]

West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now. Give it to me. I mean it.

[Andy Stumpf]

You're clear.

[David Burke]

Hot copy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Clear not. Okay, there's only one place to start this. Of all the things you can do in an F18, what's the coolest? Actually so coolest, which I'm gonna give. That one's obviously gonna be subjective. What's the most technically complex thing you can do in an F18?

[David Burke]

Oh, man. You like setting me up for what to say or not, what to say, what to think about. You didn't ask that during the podcast.

[Andy Stumpf]

Where are you going?

[David Burke]

That's a hard question, man. There are a lot.

[Andy Stumpf]

Pull that mic a little closer. Keep about a fist away.

[David Burke]

Yeah, so.

[Andy Stumpf]

So as I'm saying subjectively, what do you think the coolest thing is?

[David Burke]

The coolest thing in an F18, certainly the beginning of your career is landing on a boat.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay.

[David Burke]

So when you're like, it has to.

[Andy Stumpf]

Look like a stamp.

[David Burke]

It's crazy. And I know you've had guys on here and. And I know, like the Navy, you know this. The Navy makes really hard things look routine. The Navy will make like, oh, landing on a boat. Yes, for sure. But you've done things that you get good enough at it. People like, oh, that doesn't look that hard.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like okay, do you start that? Because you, I'm assuming do they paint out lines of where the cables are on a regular Runway and they can obviously paint the rear and the front. So you get some practice. But I'm going to tell you in a lot of things in life where I have practiced, then you get out to the old ocean. That's right.

[David Burke]

Yeah, you said exactly right. You do field carrier landing. They paint the field to look like a ship and you do it 100 times or 150 times and then you get to the boat and like. But the thing about an F18 is it has all these incredible attributes of all these other fighters. It's, it's fast, it's nimble, it's all these things but there's a ruggedness to it that flying around the ship you can't replicate in anything else. And so it wasn't even my favorite thing. But the fact that you can take that plane onto that boat and go kind of anywhere in the world was always remarkable. The other man. There are so many things you can do in that jet that are kind of technically.

[Andy Stumpf]

What's the one that's almost going to kill you? Actually the top of the list.

[David Burke]

Yeah, a lot of things other than the boat. Night lat is pretty wild. Low altitude training on night vision goggles. When you're down 300ft going 450 knots.

[Andy Stumpf]

On goggles, does it have ground looking radar giving you a heads up as well?

[David Burke]

No, it does not. There's other jets that have that the Hornet does not.

[Andy Stumpf]

Today's episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. It is close enough. Let's start thinking about Christmas. Let's head to the website. This is actually a cool gift. I have gifted this to people. It is the coffee club subscription. Right now you can get 20% off of subscriptions. Just use the code Juliet Tango Charlie 20 also known as JTC20. And that looks like all they have on the non rotating banner at this point. Here we go, the limited time roast. This is definitely holiday season stuff. Pack up on some of that if you want. My wife personally loves pumpkins and PSL also known as pumpkin spice latte time which we are in right now. Fall product launch. A lot of really cool apparel. This bag just came out. This is part of the ECs. This is also another great gift. But look at this right here. Sold out already. So this is one bag per month. Assuming you do one membership. This bag, 250 year anniversary for the United States Navy super cool. Evan is heavy handed in this. They have come with tasting notes, roasting suggestions or making suggestions. All of those things really cool down here. Stickers and all sorts of good stuff and gear. Like, this is what I'm talking about. When it comes to holiday season type stuff, it's going to be here before we know it. I'm already looking at things like, check this out. If you like people who have like little K cups, I have a espresso machine here in the studio, stuff like that. T shirts, things to drink coffee out of, things to make coffee with. Head over to blackrifflecoffee.com and start knocking out your Santa list right now. Back to the show Night.

[David Burke]

Lat's kind of wild. Pointing your nose at the ground and then flying really low at night on NVGs by yourself is kind of crazy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yes.

[David Burke]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

I have about 1.75 hours in the backseat of an F18. Right on.

[David Burke]

What'd you do?

[Andy Stumpf]

It was at Naval Air Station Oceana. We had a liaison at the command. They said, would you like to do a backseat ride? I said, don't ask me stupid questions. I made the smart move of not eating that morning. Female pilot. They were doing simulated cast runs, which was awesome. Cause I got to sit in the back and I actually was doing the JTAC holster because I was a jtac. So I was simulating the ground controller. And then after that, as they pulled out, they were doing surface to air missile evading, which meant my head was bouncing off the cockpit. I felt sick for two days. And it wasn't in the G. It was about two seconds after when your inner ear caught up and you. And obviously the lady up front was like, I am gonna destroy this dude. Which she did. And by the end, when she asked me if I wanted to fly it back to Oceana, I'm like, yeah, I absolutely just held it completely level. It's awesome.

[David Burke]

Yeah. Surface air counter attacks can. Can scramble you up pretty good.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, as somebody in the back who didn't know which direction the turns were coming, nor did I understand the maneuver she was doing.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

All I heard was the engines getting really loud and just what seemed like full deflection. Yeah. So I don't know what the hell she was doing up front other than messing with me, because I believe that's actually what the entire purpose of the evolution was. Two days. I felt like garbage. That's wild.

[David Burke]

Yeah, I can see that. I'm surprised they didn't give you the standard advice of eating the Banana. They didn't tell you to eat a banana.

[Andy Stumpf]

No.

[David Burke]

The old joke about the eating the bananas. It tastes the same coming back up as it did going down. So they tell you to eat a banana.

[Andy Stumpf]

My flight was in the morning and I just. I had never. I have never felt G's like that. I just did a back seat ride, though, in the only privately owned migration in the US Right in Bozeman. That was. He did a unrestricted climb.

[David Burke]

Nice.

[Andy Stumpf]

Holy cow. With full burners on that thing. And then just rotated over the top and I'm like, oh, God. Oh, God. Here it is again. Just athletic sweat in the back. 45 minutes later, he's up there having the time of his life. And I'm like fighting off this athletic sweat, which I know. The next step to that is rip the mask off and puke.

[David Burke]

That's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

So good, those GS, man.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

It gives you an appreciation. And maybe people don't know this, but the. The Blue Angels are up there without G suits. That is why it's wild. Yeah. I'm surprised more of them don't die, to be honest. Not that it's the safest job on earth, but I mean, that.

[David Burke]

That's kind of was getting at. They. They can make the impossible look routine. They make that look easy. And you look up and like, oh, that looks incredible. And as you know, like, what is going on inside the cockpit is remarkable, man. 100%.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I really like. There was a Blue Angel. Not a Blue Angels. It was a. What's the Air Force team?

[David Burke]

Thunderbirds.

[Andy Stumpf]

That documentary that just came out.

[David Burke]

Just watched it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Fantastic.

[David Burke]

Super cool.

[Andy Stumpf]

Have you ever seen the down the Runway? This one trends on social media. Sometimes it shows an Air Force pilot. Yeah. And they just absolutely just kiss it. And then it's F18, which is full deflection of the land.

[David Burke]

That's at Nellis. I've seen that video. I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. One stuffing it in because the pilot's obviously not doing the maintenance on either of those. And the other guy is just like Chef's K cruising down. May not have even left any rubber on the Runway. Totally, man. How do you. Do you fly at all now that you've been out of the military?

[David Burke]

I have not flown. I have not flown since I got out of the Marine Corps.

[Andy Stumpf]

What was your last flight?

[David Burke]

My last flight was in an F35, 2014 as I was leaving my last flying command to get ready to go to school. At the time, I thought I'd Be back to flying. And I was planning on going back to flying, but it turned out I did not go back to flying. So that was my last flight.

[Andy Stumpf]

And you didn't know it was going to be.

[David Burke]

I did not know. In fact, I was pretty sure it wasn't. I was pretty sure three years later I was going to be back flying.

[Andy Stumpf]

What would you have done differently on that flight had you known? I'm thinking eject. I'm not so sure. That's.

[David Burke]

No, that's a bad thought. Yeah. No, we don't want to do that.

[Andy Stumpf]

When in Rome, though, it was going to be your last flight.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Have you seen the recent video where they were doing a passenger flight? I believe it might have been in an F15.

[David Burke]

It was.

[Andy Stumpf]

And a back seater said, what does this handle do?

[David Burke]

I've seen that. Yes. That was also her last flight. So we don't want to do that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is it really as in unplanned last?

[David Burke]

Facetiously, like, I think she was an incentive ride, like, giving her a chance to see something that she hadn't seen. And that did not go well. That was a bummer.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's a lot of paper.

[David Burke]

It's a crazy video. If you've seen that video, you're like, holy cow. Taxing out to the Runway.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, it's amazing that the parachute actually inflates at the. That altitude.

[David Burke]

Yeah. The 00 seat.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

No, I did not have that experience. Thank God.

[Andy Stumpf]

How does that happen? I mean, obviously a handle that was supposed to remain for emergency use.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Got pulled. But why?

[David Burke]

Why would you pull it? Yeah. I don't know. Like, I suppose there's a chance it got, like, tangled up or. Or misunderstood, but that's one of those. You look at that and you're like, I don't know how that something like that happens. The.

[Andy Stumpf]

For the guy with the MiG, he. I got strapped in. We were still up with the scaffolding, and he comes back and he said, we're just going to talk about this handle. You're going to demonstrate to me that you can arm it multiple times and that you can disarm it. Because as soon as I get up front, you're on your own back here, buddy. He goes, I can push us both out if we need to, but if, for whatever reason you grab a hold of this, which, by the way, I'll tell you when to do that. Please don't try to make up your own mind when that should be happening. Yeah, but, yeah, it was a full on, individual brief on just which Also was quite wild. I mean it was finger to move it to lock it into place, one button detent, pull it out. I would hope it would require a little bit more pull power. Yeah, I don't, I've written a lot of things. I don't need to ride one of those.

[David Burke]

I agree, I agree. And I never did obviously knew guys that had but thank God I didn't have to do that.

[Andy Stumpf]

So what would you have done differently though if you knew was your last fight? Like just spend most of it upside down.

[David Burke]

I probably would have made it a little more of aggressive flight. Probably take something out and fought. Yeah it was more of like it was a flight that was, it was fine. I, I don't even remember the details some, some time in the pattern but it wasn't a, a BFM flight. Had I known like last fight I would have bent the jet around a little bit more. But that's all right.

[Andy Stumpf]

How much time do pilots spend up there because you were a Marine Corps aviator. Yep. How much time are Marine Corps pilots up there doing dog fighting type stuff?

[David Burke]

Man, it depends. In the Hornet and now in the F35. The. The on the fighter side if you end up in like the Top Gun track which is with the Navy, the weapon school track, you'll do a decent amount. You can also end up on a track where you're kind of much more heavily air to ground and don't do as much. If you're in the Marine Corps in a fighter you're going to do some but it can vary. It can vary greatly depending on which platform you're in and then which track you end up. I was very lucky to be in a single seat carrier based, Top gun based. So a ton, a ton of dog fighting.

[Andy Stumpf]

How do they teach that? Where do they start?

[David Burke]

Man, they start in flight school with these very fundamental just called acm. How to, how to put, how to put on G. How to do tactical turns, how to be aggressive in the airplane by yourself and then just kind of formation with another jet in a tactical sense. And then they just start you off slow like hey, you're going to start behind this guy. Just stay behind him. Okay. He's going to start off behind you, try to try to shake him and it just builds on top of each other until you get to a point where you understand the geometry and then they just kind of throw you to the wolves which is just more and more flying a lot of academics. They teach it really well. But to see it you got to. You have to be in the cockpit and look out and see it visually and understand it. And you just do a lot of flying. And that starts in flight school, more in flight training. And then once you get into the fleet and you're flying in those blocks of training, you just do it a ton.

[Andy Stumpf]

It seems like a lot of angles, speed, and G management. They were perfect. Well, not that I know.

[David Burke]

No, you're spot on.

[Andy Stumpf]

I conceptually can describe all those three things. Let's not go up and get into dog fight, because I'm like. Like this. When we were in the MiG, they did a. There is Jared Isaacman. He owns. He did a lot of the. What would you guys call it? OP4 or the. Basically, he has a full civilian collection of aircraft, and they would go fly around. And so he had a bunch of pilots there, and they were doing a dog fight. And I'm like, just leaving my. He's like, the fight's on. And the next thing, I'm like, so, of course, no idea what's coming. But he basically went over the top. And it just seemed like he was trying to have a shorter radius in the turn than the guy he was going after.

[David Burke]

Dude, you got it, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, I didn't have it. I'm. Like I said, this is me. Oh, my God, I'm sweating again. That seemed like. And then. Yeah, it just. I don't know. I mean, that sounds conceptually pretty easy, but I feel like, especially into that G load in the cockpit. And then, of course, if they change their orientation. Yeah, that just seems hard.

[David Burke]

It is. It's. Your description of. Is correct. And. And in some sense, it's not that complex in terms of, hey, this angle, this G, this geometry, what the complexity of it is. You hit the one is that there's a lot going on under G and trying to keep up with the airplane as you're aggressively maneuvering the jet. And also, too, the geometry is really easy to describe on paper. And you're looking for. Oh, you look for this cue for line of sight to pick up or aspect to change. And it all makes sense when you're trying to perceive that in your brain. When things are literally going 4 or 500 miles an hour, it's really hard. And as you can imagine with most things, the margin for error is really small. And there's kind of a saying, like, if by the time you see it, it's too late. So you have a really narrow window to identify, okay, he's doing this. I need to react this way. And that's what makes it tough is recognizing it because you're just. Things are happening so fast. The geometry is so narrow. But your description of what you're trying to. That's it. And it just takes some reps. You get used to it, and after a while, you learn to see things and maneuver quickly. But your description of that is spot on. It's just a very hard thing to do in real time.

[Andy Stumpf]

How awesome, though, would it be to be a P51 Mustang?

[David Burke]

It would be the awesomest thing in.

[Andy Stumpf]

The world because, again, I don't know anything about missiles, but I feel like in the modern era. I've talked to some modern era pilots. Like, yeah, I just pointed my head in that way and the heads up picked it up. So I'm just launching stuff off, and I think people are dying. I don't think that's what it was happening in the P51. I think you were about 27 inches from the back of the. Because then it was all. I mean, obviously you had to calculate where you were going to, but it seemed to be. It was all machine gun fire, and it was straight analog, like, just the closer angles. I mean, come on. And you're wearing a.

[David Burke]

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[Andy Stumpf]

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[David Burke]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

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[David Burke]

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[Andy Stumpf]

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[David Burke]

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[Andy Stumpf]

Trick or Treat yourself scarf.

[David Burke]

I mean, come on. I'm with you, man. That's an airy look back. Like, I would kill to have done that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Leather hat, pull down goggles. And I'm not talking night vision. I'm just talking so the grease doesn't get your eyes.

[David Burke]

100%, man. 100%. I'm with you.

[Andy Stumpf]

So do you think those guys would be able to hold their own in modern aircraft, or do you think they actually might even be better airmen because of. They were. And I'm. I don't know much about the 51, but I don't know how much of it was hydraulically controlled. How. You know, I wonder what that feedback actually felt like.

[David Burke]

Yeah, you know, those. I think the mentality those guys had. They're also really smart. I Think they would thrive. They would thrive in the current fighter because, you know, the technology is something you can learn. It's really hard to teach the mindset. It's really hard to teach the attitude. And I think one thing that I've enjoyed, you know, I did a podcast with a guy named Bud Anderson who just passed away recently. He was a 16 and a half kills in a P51 in World War II. Triple Ace.

[Andy Stumpf]

Hold on, did you say one half kills?

[David Burke]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm sorry, how does this work?

[David Burke]

Well, when you and your buddy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

Tag team a kill and you each.

[Andy Stumpf]

Get half credit for that 16.5. I mean, I feel like you can go to a bar and be like, hey, buddy, this one's yours.

[David Burke]

I think they kept everything they could back then. But to your point, I mean, that's, that's, that's a lot of kills. And the guy was just awesome. But the thing about talking to him was the mindset and the mentality of a single seat fighter pilot. I think those guys do extremely well today. I really do.

[Andy Stumpf]

What are the odds? Like the dog fighting you guys are talking about? When you guys are fighting, is that mostly at the missile range or gun, or is there an overlap in that?

[David Burke]

Yeah, there's a, there's a big overlap. So like the long range to missile to the short range gun covers a lot of different ranges.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And you can, obviously there's technology now. You can be really effective far away, but the, the, the movement from, from weapon, short range, missile to gun, you know, from long range to short range to gun, there's different overlaps there. The adage still stands. If you're going to shoot someone with a gun, you got to be really close. And you know, that's hard to do, but that's certainly the most fun to do. But there's technology now. Like, as fun as that sounds, you kind of want to avoid it because getting in a super close dog fight makes you really predictable for other people. You talked about evading Sam's. Yeah, the last thing I want to do if there's a threat on the ground is get into a dogfight with you because it may be a lot of fun, but the guy on the ground is like, this is awesome. They're slow, they're predictable. I can see them. You can't maneuver. And so you, you have to really think about the value of those in close fights. You have to be good at it, but you kind of want to avoid it if you can because of all the other things that are out There that could be a problem for you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Given the state of the technological world. I mean, I don't even know who would be. I know Russia has. What would it be at this point? Fourth or fifth generation. I'm sure China has the same thing. What are the likelihood, let's say we were to have an air to air engagement with them. It terminating in a dogfight at that range, or do you think people be lobbing stuff at each other over the horizon?

[David Burke]

I think they are gonna do everything they can to avoid that in close fight.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

Because just like you said, that technology's out there. They're gonna be lobbying things. That said, you're starting to get to a place where I don't know if parity's quite the right. Right word yet, but there is undeniable. Like they see what we can do and they want to be able to do the same thing. And what parity ends up doing is that all these advantages that we have, if you do have parity, they kind of neutralize each other out. And eventually what it gets to is you and I are going to scrap.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

So I think there's an eventuality we are always thinking about. We're always working really hard to have that technological advantage to avoid it. But the good news is, you know, just generally speaking, like I've been asked this question before. I'd be extremely confident in a situation like that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

That we can. We can do well in that environment. Even though if it's not, I would still want to avoid it. I don't want to be in that situation. But the parody thing kind of makes us revert back to kind of the basics, the fundamentals. And we have to be good at that stuff.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. If you take all the advantages away and it's an equal fight. Yeah. What is the best fighter pilot ever? Say his name is Pete Mitchell, by the way. Call sign Maverick comes down to the man or woman in the box.

[David Burke]

There you go.

[Andy Stumpf]

How awesome as that movie for you to watch.

[David Burke]

Freaking totally awesome. I love that movie. I absolutely love that movie.

[Andy Stumpf]

Technically accurate in every respect. Right. How many times would your career. I mean, I love the one where he's flying underneath and then rotates over the top with another dude in close. I just feel like you would leave that day without having your wings. Yes.

[David Burke]

There's a lot of moves that would also be his last flight in that movie, but it's still awesome to watch. Oh.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, like taking a jet on his own and going to a range that wasn't scheduled.

[David Burke]

It's a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of things.

[Andy Stumpf]

I can see why the Navy is all about supporting both Top Gun and then Maverick.

[David Burke]

Totally.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. It's that first bar scene in Top Gun where they're in their whites. Can you imagine the line of the recruiting office the next day?

[David Burke]

Dude, I was 14 when I saw that. And I'm like, and here we are again. I'm going to do that 100% to this day, I think, you know, you get kids these days. Watch that movie. Like, I want to do that. I want to be that guy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Act of valor didn't do us that well. You know, you guys did better with Top Gun. Why'd you side the Marine Corps over the Navy, though?

[David Burke]

So I grew up in a town called El Toro as a kid and.

[Andy Stumpf]

Very familiar with where it is.

[David Burke]

Okay, right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Not with. I'm from California. Yeah.

[David Burke]

So, yeah, perfect. So there used to be a Marine base there, and I was a little kid. I moved there when I 5. My parents moved there for my dad's work, and I was like, a mile from the flight line. So I grew up literally looking up, seeing the jets at El Toro take off and land. Went to the air show every year. So I was just around the Marines, and it just. It just got in my bloodstream, man. I had no. No family members, no experience, no background in the military. Nobody I knew was in the military. But growing up, seeing the jets, it just. At some point, I'm like, that is. And then the movie comes out. And the thing about the movie was, like, planes around ships. I'm like, that's awesome. When I made the connection about a year later, about 15, I go, oh, the Marines land on ships. That was it. I'm like, I'm do. I am doing that. So by 15, I'm like, I am 100% going to be a Marine Corps fighter pilot. And I think had I not lived there, there's no way that happens.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then I'm assuming Annapolis is your commissioning source.

[David Burke]

Oh, God, no. I went to the local state school I barely got into. I like you so much more already. I was in the.

[Andy Stumpf]

How did you survive in the ring knocker environment? I've been in rooms I don't think they meant to do it, but have you ever been in one where they're just. They're running their fingers on the table and you can hear it? You. I don't know if they mean to do it because I was a fake officer, too. I was an ldo. I got commissioned. I don't even have a college degree. Not a single second of higher education. And somehow I'm in rooms and it's like, hey, you don't actually need to knock that ring on the desk because you and I both know that I probably don't belong in here anyway, so we can skip that step. We violently agree on that assessment.

[David Burke]

Yeah. I was the definite local boy. Made good. The nearest school to me was Cal State Fullerton.

[Andy Stumpf]

It was.

[David Burke]

I got into Fullerton. The, the Marine Corps requirements at the time, which is awesome, was, you know, I had to take the physical fitness test to get to ocs. And OCS was certainly a challenge for me. It's not buds, but it was not easy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And you had to have a 2.0 GPA in anything you wanted. The, the thing I loved about the Marine Corps was you didn't need a technical degree. There's. I couldn't. There's no way I was smart enough to get like an engineering or an aerospace degree. I got a degree in political science and, and got commissioned. You know, finished officer candidate school, finished college, got my degree. And the Marine Corps didn't care. I went to the basic school to compete with 250 other guys for my primary MOS. And the Marine Corps did not care where you came from, which was perfect for me because there was no chance I was going to get like a Marine Corps Rotzi scholarship and there's no chance I was going to get into the academy. And no judgment on that. It just, it was not part of, like, my, my life growing up.

[Andy Stumpf]

I was not for everybody. The service academies are not. I have nothing but respect for me. They're not for everybody.

[David Burke]

I was, you know, a solid B minus student in high school.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's much better than myself.

[David Burke]

And, you know, I had plans to get a commission in the Marine Corps and, and, and I took the platoon leaders class. Platoon leaders course, path. And it was perfect. It was perfect for me.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then. When did you finally realize you were going to get to fly for the Marine Corps, though?

[David Burke]

Yeah, that's a good story, too. So I got commissioned. The Marine Corps commissions you either as a ground or an air contract. I really wanted to fly, but when I applied for the OCS program, the ground. The pro. The ground slots was all they could give me, so I got commission as a ground officer. And so when I went to the basic school, all. Everybody goes to the basic school. You could be a lawyer, you could be guaranteed to go to flight school or a ground guy. You go to the basic school and for the six months at the basic school, you compete against your peers. There's 250 guys per class and, and each job, each MOS has a certain number. There could be 15 infantry, 10 tanks, 14 artillery. There were two pilot slots and so I competed in my class to get one of those two pilot slots and I got the second of those two slots. So like the last couple weeks of the basic school, they announced what your MOS is going to be. That's when I found I was going to flight school. It was a stressful five and a half months, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

So not to reference everything to social media, but let's just acknowledge what era we live in. We're controlled by these 6 inch tall robots in our hands. There's videos that come out where I think it's the Air Force again, where it's the. It's up on a tv and they. What do they. What would they call it? They're basically letting them know what airflow. I've noticed they call it the drop. I've noticed a difference between say an F22 reaction and a KC135.

[David Burke]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

The KC135 does his best to put his happy face on, but I think inside a portion of his soul died.

[David Burke]

I've seen those same videos.

[Andy Stumpf]

What a horrible way to get news that you really don't want on the. I'm like, oh, that is a rough optic.

[David Burke]

Yeah, they piece those together too and the guy will get the Raptor and the next one is the 135 and they're kind of acting like the same level.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then there's like the C5 guys just like. Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah. Big powerful jets. Yeah, which is true, but they aren't.

[David Burke]

They are awesome. And God, God bless all those guys who are doing that stuff. I cannot do without him.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know. And I'm open to being wrong about this. How many people dream of flying a KC135? It has to be done. Somebody has to do it. And, and I get it. And I. Is there a way to. Because you flew the F35 too.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is there a path for a 135 driver to get into a fighter one day or are they more along in the mobility track?

[David Burke]

I think it's pretty rare. They don't do a ton of. Of platform transitions between types. So you can fly the F15, F16, end up in the Raptor or F35.

[Andy Stumpf]

A lot of that is because of evolution of airframes though, right? Like they have to. Yeah, yeah.

[David Burke]

It's not impossible. It's. It's not impossible, but I think it's very uncommon to end up in a track where you're flying a heavy and end up in a fighter. You get selected. I flew a lot with the Air Force. It didn't exchange. I flew the Raptor with the Air Force, so I flew the F22. That's the.

[Andy Stumpf]

It. Is it cool?

[David Burke]

It's the coolest thing in the world. It's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

God, I love the videos of that, where they take those angles. What do they call it? When I'm gonna call it. I want to call it smoke, but I know that's not what it is. When it deflects off the leading edges, what is that called contrail.

[David Burke]

The vapor. Yeah. What causes that? It's really just the. The air pressure and just the condensation, the moisture that's in the air and just the violent pressure. It literally.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's called a great photo. It's what.

[David Burke]

It's freaking awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

100. But those guys get tracked, you know, in flight school, and they end up in either heaviest you could. You know, there's different platform helicopters and then the fighter track. So they kind of know relatively early on they don't transition a lot. Obviously, you know this. Like, there's not a platform out there that isn't absolutely essential and critical.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

But I will say, certainly for me, and I think it's true for most people, not all. Most that dream is. Is usually I want to fly a fighter of some variety, and then sometimes it works out where you're not cut out for that, and sometimes it works out that you are, and there's just no opportunities. And so it's really hard to. To differentiate that. And for me, all the things that I got to do, you have to recognize, like, some of it's just good luck and good timing. Other things, you know, got to work hard, prepare, but the opportunity has to be there too. So it's a blend of both of those. But once you get into that track, it's. It's hard to jump out of that track.

[Andy Stumpf]

I wonder if there is a retention difference between the heavies and the fighters. Like, I wonder if you're. Yeah. I feel like if you were fighting around in the sky, just banging it out in a fighter, you're going to like, 30 years might sound great if you're watching other people do that. And I mean, again, I'm not. I never flew airlines and stuff, but those heavies, a lot of that. I bet you that is very valuable types of flying where you could roll out and pursue a different career. I wonder if there's a difference in retention.

[David Burke]

Yeah, that is a good question. And you know, if you're in a, in a C130, a C5, a C17 to KC135, I mean, you have an incredibly valuable skill that's very, very marketable.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, you're going to get snapped up instantaneously by a major when you get out.

[David Burke]

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, that would be tough, especially if it was your dream. And yeah, you're like, sweet. We're flying in formation across the ocean. I am flying an aircraft carrier and they are flying a bugatti. Man, the F22 looks awesome.

[David Burke]

It is, it is, it is. Is every bit as awesome as it looks.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is that one of the ones that has like the half a million dollar helmet? It just. What are you seeing through that thing? Other than everything?

[David Burke]

F22 is just very normal helmet. The F35, what you're talking about. And I was lucky enough to fly both the F35, that just totally insane helmet that's got everything built into the visor. There's no head up display in the cockpit anymore.

[Andy Stumpf]

So it just follows, basically the HUD.

[David Burke]

Is always with you everywhere, wherever you look, the HUD is with you. To include, like, we have something called the das, the Distributed aperture system, which lets you look through the skin of the jet.

[Andy Stumpf]

Stop it.

[David Burke]

Yeah, dead serious.

[Andy Stumpf]

And it looks real.

[David Burke]

It is real. It's amazing. So probably the best analogy is if you have a brand new car and you put that thing in reverse, it's got that live camera where it takes the camera.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yep.

[David Burke]

And it's. And like. And if somebody gets out of the car, you'll see them walking. You know what I mean? That is what you have in the F35. It's wild.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is that the latest and greatest what we have right now?

[David Burke]

That is the latest and greatest.

[Andy Stumpf]

Makes me wonder what Skunk Works has stuffed out in Area 51 other than obviously alien bodies. I hope so deeply there's alien bodies. I want aliens to be real so badly. I think it would just calm human beings right down. Like, hey guys, we're not the biggest, baddest dude on the block. Maybe. Take it easy. I have my doubts though, because even though they have this amazing technology and ability to travel through space and time, they crash a lot when they get here. Yeah. So I'm not so sure about that. It's like really, like they can, they.

[David Burke]

Can travel all the way to the end and this is how you get bored here, like seriously.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then they just can't stop crashing when they're here. Okay, okay. I want to believe though. I want to believe so badly. The F35 man.

[David Burke]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, how do you even evolve off of that airframe?

[David Burke]

Yeah, it's. I mean the F35 is undeniably the most advanced thing. And I think when you're looking at the sixth gen, the next man fighter.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is it just more of everything? Yeah, a little bit faster, a little bit smaller signature for stealth.

[David Burke]

I mean you're definitely going to get those things. And I think there's a blend of like knowing what's going on, like the information that you have, which is super important. Infrared laser, electro optical, all these different spectrums, you know, out of band type stuff like jamming radars is a big deal. Like, okay, I'll operate in the infrared spectrum. All these different spectrums. We did a really good job in the F35 with that. I think the next evolution is a broader range of spectrums. But I think the most important thing about that is sharing that. Is it can you get that information? And it's still a very low detection. Can I share that with you on the ground? And you're like, holy cow, you can now see what's going on and the information gap that you have over another. And you guys know this. Well, if you have a big information gap, if you know what's going on and they don't, oh, you're going to crush them. It's.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's.

[David Burke]

And that's how a.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or if you can make them think something that's happening that isn't even better.

[David Burke]

Right. And so that's where I think you're going to see the advancement. I don't know if it's going to be like that much faster term, that much better. And the stealth will probably be improved. That thing you just talked about. I know what's going on and I can make you think something that advantage as you've seen it, that also helps too with a smaller, lighter, maybe less firepower organically. But if you have the information advantage, surprise stealth, all those things that I think is what the evolution is going to look like.

[Andy Stumpf]

I've heard they greenlit Top Gun 3. I heard the premise was manned versus unmanned. You think it'll ever go fully unmanned?

[David Burke]

Oh man, you were putting me on the spot here. I'm going to give you no answer.

[Andy Stumpf]

You Give is going to, you're going to get heat either way.

[David Burke]

I'm going to get heat with that. Here's In a fighter world, I do think so. I think in the fighter world when I'm talking about single seat fighter, I think the evolution is eventually you are unmanned. I don't think that for all airplanes and yeah, I know, I know and I understand and I'm torn a little bit. I am, I'm torn on that. And it's not gonna be tomorrow, it's not gonna be in 10 years. But the arc of that in terms of what you want that platform to do and, and what I'm basing it on is. And my limited understanding is the evolution of technology is so frickin rapid right now. Like okay, what's technology gonna do in 40 years? And if you think about in those terms like can we replace in those platforms? My answer is unpopular is I think so. Yeah, I do.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean we're both old enough to remember 40 years ago and I remember rotary telephones cradling, having a shoulder pain created on the phone while dialing.

[David Burke]

Even that thing that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, that's what I was going to leap forward to. I don't. Maybe the most creative also at that time I was eight. But so you know, maybe the most creative minds at their in tech had some idea. But did they ever have that idea? I mean we have access in those devices TO I think 95% of known human knowledge. Totally. And for good and bad the social interactions. I mean you're walking around with a device that has multiples the power of the first space shuttle or what landed on the moon. Sorry people, I believe we actually went to the moon. Maybe we didn't do as much as we said we did, but I believe we went to the moon and also I believe the earth is round, so whatever. So I mean I couldn't have fathomed that 40 years ago. I am. I also feel like technology is evolving at a more rapid pace than it was for the last 40. Yeah. So who knows? My guess would probably be wrong four years from now, let alone putting the zero on there.

[David Burke]

Yeah, the evolution tells me like in that world the man fighter is on the clock. That's what I think. As unpopular as that might be.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well with a very small, very, very small subsection of people that will be unpopular.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

How many fighter pilots do you think there are in the US?

[David Burke]

I don't know man.

[Andy Stumpf]

1500 maybe.

[David Burke]

Yeah, there's, I mean there's, there's a coup, there's Thousands.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, not that many though.

[David Burke]

No, no, not that many. And I don't think the fighter community would, would be like no, we're always gonna. I, I think there's, they're wrestling with that right now. I mean even just, even just UAVs just in the last 15 years in the variation of how long it can stay up, what it can carry, the technology that's allowed us to operate that and you just put that on a timeline and go, all right, what's that going to look like in 30, 40 years? I think there's a lot of open mindedness that it's going to look, it's going to, we can't even think about or fathom what it's going to look like. And to me it aligns with. Can you take a person in this mission set? Can you take a person out?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

Would you want. Yes. Why would I want to put that person in that spot? So I think the ARC is there, it's going to take some time, but I think that's the path we're on.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know I look at the ISR platforms we had when I was in and I'm well dated at this point. You know, predators and reapers and the sensors and occasionally you'd get an armed one and then I've fast forward that to what's going on in Ukraine and essentially not to reduce this too simply, but they're taking a DJI drone, a commercial off the shelf item, weaponizing that. And honestly some of these cameras like these DJI drones have like Hasselblad cameras and glass and yeah, you can get thermal optics and I'm looking at some of this like man, that was cutting edge military technology 10 years ago. Clearly it's a different platform and it's boundaried by batteries and FAA and all these things. But that was the cutting edge of warfare 10 years ago. You can get that with a credit card now. I mean, I don't even know what that looks like a half a decade from now.

[David Burke]

Yeah, we're on the same page. You plot that growth curve in the future 10 years, like dude, what do you. It's hard to imagine that.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I've talked with a bunch of guys I serve with. I always ask them the same thing. Did you ever think about an armed small drone chasing you down? While we were on the bat? Not a single one of my buddies ever even considered that to be an option. I am very happy to not be trying to figure out that problem because that's a real problem. And then you can go again on social media and watch these drone demonstrations from China where they have dragons breathing fire, fighting each other in 3D space. And then I want to think of is, what if they targeted that towards infrastructure and weaponize that? Or like, I really like the ciws. I hope they have something better. Just like just hosing that thing down. I love that ciwiz. That thing's awesome.

[David Burke]

It is.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I think it would probably do okay. But what about frontline troops on the ground and 10,000 drones which are launched by a submarine just off the coast. And honestly, if I was China, I would still have them do the Dragon display when it was on the way in because that is going to be. I mean, why would you not? It's not like they're going to stop them anyway. Scare the living crap out of them as they're on the way.

[David Burke]

We are living in a different world, man. 100%.

[Andy Stumpf]

100% man. How was it teaching at Top Gun?

[David Burke]

It was awesome. Especially at that point in my career. It was only my second tour, so I'd done four years in the fleet, you know, two regular deployments on carriers. And my next job is I'm an instructor at Top Gun. So I'm pretty, you know, relatively young. I'm a marine captain o3 when I get there. And to have that kind of responsibility and that kind of dedicated training at that point in my career, it was, it was the best. It's the best flying you can do, it's the best environment and you have this incredible responsibility of we're at war when I was a Top Gun, so we're training guys to go to war. It was awesome. I loved the best job you could have at that point in your career.

[Andy Stumpf]

Did you open speeches by taking the F18 NATOPS and throwing it in the garbage in front of a 500 square foot American flag in an open hangar bay.

[David Burke]

Where do you think they got that idea for the movie from? I mean, that's directly from me.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'd love that.

[David Burke]

No, it's. It is a cool place, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

It really is. So what's different about the flying there? And why don't they teach that flying to everybody? Is it just. Does it require. Does it require more a smaller group to actually get it or do you think it is something that could be taught and they just want to keep that place as something more elite?

[David Burke]

I think, I think it's a similar scenario to what you probably dealt with. It's very hard to mass produce special operations. Yeah. And I don't mean to call Top Gun special operations. But it really is a niche. Yeah, it's a good. So I think why you have to have a relatively small number. It's really hard to mass produce. That is, you're not just teaching the skill and by the way, like the skills that we teach Top Gun. That is what you teach in the fleet. It's all the same stuff.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is it refinement, then more.

[David Burke]

It's. That's one is. You're exactly right. It's refinement. The other part is what you're expecting someone to be able to do when they leave is not just be refined, but to be able to explain that to other people. So you're using it as like. So if you come to Top Gun, you're the student. You come from squadron one, you come to Top Gun for 13 weeks. The time that I'm dedicated, we might spend 45 minutes to an hour flying and we're going to spend five, six, seven hours debriefing. Much of that debrief is that you learn the skill of identifying what happened to teach it to a relatively young pilot who. Who is. May not ever go to Top Gun, but he has to be good enough to fight in combat. So the skill of teaching.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's.

[David Burke]

It's really hard to be a good teacher if you don't really know the nuance of what's going on. And just like your description earlier, dog fighting, it's all nuance. It's little small things. If you can pull up those small errors, that takes a lot of reps, a lot of experience, a lot of flying, which is hard to mass produce. But we're taking it beyond a Top Gun to not just be good at that to be. But to be able to teach it. That's really hard to do. So you have a limited number of people in a relatively short period of time to get them back to their squadron to take the other 25, 30 people in their squadron, depending on what it is, so they can get better.

[Andy Stumpf]

So. And they are expected to try to pass that knowledge. That is a force multiplication aspect as well.

[David Burke]

Okay, that's exactly right. That is exactly why they're there.

[Andy Stumpf]

I didn't real. I didn't know. Or again, my. Let's be honest, my complete optic on Top Gun is Top Gun and Maverick to me, both documentaries.

[David Burke]

That's why I'm here. It's all good.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. And so it almost seemed as if in those movies and it probably. How can you unpack an entire career or that experience in two hours? Anyway, it almost seemed as if it was. It's a fight to get there. And then once you get there, you're part of that elite. There was never the leap in either of those where, hey, your job is actually to go back and make everybody else better as well. It was more like, hey, I don't know if you guys know this, but on my patch here at whatever Top.

[David Burke]

Gun looks like, the differentiator for a Top Gun graduate and then of course, a Top Gun instructor is the ability to teach it. That's the hardest part. And you probably saw this too. Guys that were really, really good. And you teach these other guys. Yeah, they can't and they can't. That this. You talked about it. The force, multiplication, the scaling. If you can't teach it, you really don't contribute the way that we need you. So small number of guys, super intense. And then the, the expectation is you go back and scale that to the, to the fleet. That's what we're there for.

[Andy Stumpf]

How are these students come through at a time?

[David Burke]

We typically put through, and I'm dating myself, it's, it's probably pretty close. We're going to put through eight or nine crews.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay.

[David Burke]

So some single seats, some two seats are, you know, roughly 15 guys at a time. 15 pilots at a time. And it's about 12ish weeks. 12 to 13 weeks for the course.

[Andy Stumpf]

Do they bring their own planes or do you guys have Top Gun plans? Both. It's funny how I can imagine some military aviators developing a sense of ownership over a gray F18 that's going to be shared very widely.

[David Burke]

Oh yeah. If they get emotional about it, Uncle Sam's plane.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm pretty sure. I was wondering if. Yeah. I'm like, okay, we're going to be in the Top Gun planes. These things have been written hard and put away extremely wet, so a little loose around the edges.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean it's people don't think about even in the SEAL community. I mean we would do turnovers overseas. You'd think that everybody has a complete weapon system and every time. And a lot of time you're hot swapping that stuff.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

You would want to have. In a perfect world, sure, every military aviator could have their own aircraft, but man, imagine the. What people also don't get is the maintenance. Yeah.

[David Burke]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

What is on an F18, if you fly for an hour, what is that equivalent to in maintenance time on the ground? A couple hours for a crew, probably six.

[David Burke]

Yeah. And it probably varies a little bit of like, you know, Cycles of. You can fly a bunch for a couple of days with no. Almost no maintenance. I shouldn't say none, but very limited. And then there are times that we'll tear airplanes down to the bone, man. Like you will tear. You'll go in like the engines are gone, the wings are. I mean, so the, the depth of maintenance, it's not necessarily every day, but in aggregate, the lifetime of a jet, the amount of work that goes into the. Keep those things flying is crazy. Those, the maintainers. I mean, you want to talk about unsung heroes of like, it's crazy what they do. It's incredible.

[Andy Stumpf]

Climbing inside of a turbine to switch out a gambling.

[David Burke]

Yeah, 100%.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I've actually recently seen some pictures of people climbing inside of airplane gas tanks. The hardest of passes ever. Crazy. I mean, absolutely not. It takes spelunking or these caving psychos to a whole.

[David Burke]

And then do that on a carrier at night hanging. And like we need this jet flying tomorrow morning. What those people are doing is just. It's remarkable. And I was very fortunate. I. I spent a lot of time in the maintenance department as a Marine and I loved it. Those guys are the best.

[Andy Stumpf]

So one of the things I appreciated about that Air Force documentary, they made it through a season without a single down day. And they did highlight the maintenance crews, deservedly so, working all night long. And I don't know much about the F16 specifically, but I'm like, that looks like a really major component that you're taking out in the middle of the night with headlamps on.

[David Burke]

I watched that same documentary. The Blue Angels have one as well. And I, I can't speak to the details of those two teams, but to have the amount of flying they do all over the country, in the world.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, because they shuttle those things too, don't they?

[David Burke]

Everywhere. And so for they, for them to do an entire season with that, that is a remarkable thing. I love that you highlighted that because that's on the backs of people. You don't know their names, you don't see their face. Like that is just hardworking people that are making things happen. And that's the military though, right? Like, that's the beauty of the military.

[Andy Stumpf]

So one of the things that I wish was different about the special operations community is you might be involved in something that makes the news and it's going to be. Everything is going to be focused on such a small concentric circle of people. But the pyramid that that little circle sits on top of, if you pull any one of those chunks out there, it doesn't even. You can't even operate. Like, special operations cannot operate without conventional support, period. Full stop. It's just not going to happen. But they never make the movies.

[David Burke]

I learned that lesson on the carrier when I was landing early in my care. I'm by myself, landing a jet aboard the carrier, thinking, like, I'm the man. Look at what I'm doing. And then one night, I had a landing in a really bad weather situation where basically I get talked down by the ship and the lsos I land, I'm like, I don't even know how I landed. I literally do not know how this happened.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I realized that's probably not good. It was rough. Yeah.

[David Burke]

But what. The lesson I took away from was, like, I couldn't. I couldn't move my jet one inch on the flight deck if it wasn't for literally hundreds, if not thousands of people. Takeoffs, landings, armament, weapons. So you can. In your brain, you can think, oh, yeah, this is me. And I was fortunate early in my career to learn that lesson. Like, dude, take a step back and look around. What you're doing is great. This is awesome. But to think, like, you're making this happen on your own is crazy. A carrier at sea, every single person is doing something, and if they don't do it, you're not going flying. So I learned to get away from my own ego of like, hey, check me out. Look what I'm doing to. I don't think. I couldn't do any of this without the crew. So you got to learn that at some point in your career. It's hard to see that sometimes, but I totally agree with you. You, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it is a tough one for sure. I spent about 30 days on a carrier, actually. No, it wasn't that long. We went from Guam to Australia.

[David Burke]

Okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's an interesting crew, the Kitty Hawk. Very, very unique environment indeed. It got lost many times. I do not know how to. People think I know everything about the Navy. I think I've spent a total of 18 days on a naval vessel at. In 17 years. You get turned around in that thing. Yeah. And it's like, hello, sir. Yeah, can you tell me where I am and also maybe walk with me until I can get back to where I'm going? I don't know where the daylight is, but the deeper you go, the more interesting it can become.

[David Burke]

Indeed. I have slightly more time on a carrier, and I had the same.

[Andy Stumpf]

So you probably can read the hieroglyphs.

[David Burke]

I know how to get around. It took some time. Read. I know. I know how to operate. I probably have a year and a half. A year and eight months of total sea time. So you get used to it. But what you're describing, how many times, I'm just like, can you help me get to my room? Like, I'm lost on this thing. And you get used to it. But, yeah. That place, the carriage, is crazy. It's crazy what's going on.

[Andy Stumpf]

I feel like the deeper you go, it becomes more like the Lord of the Rings. There's Middle Earth people down there, and you open doors and you're like, oh, hey, I'm just gonna close this door. Cause you scare me. And I don't know what's going on in here. It is wild. I mean, a floating city doesn't even. Even capture it.

[David Burke]

It's so much more than that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

How all that works. I think most of the time I was on that boat, I was thinking about, are we really sure that all the welds on this thing are good, that are holding it together? Are we really sure this thing's watertight?

[David Burke]

I'm telling you, like we said earlier, they. The Navy makes the nearly impossible look routine. They make it look like no big deal, but it is. The things that are happening to make that thing function is crazy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Reactor.

[David Burke]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

Steam catapults. Yeah. That seems like two great things to have the same vessel. Crazy. Yeah. How did. How'd your military service come to an end?

[David Burke]

I was so. I finished my F35 command tour. I went to school, which was awesome. I love my school experience. And I went to the Pentagon, and I was.

[Andy Stumpf]

What was that?

[David Burke]

Which one, the school or Pentagon?

[Andy Stumpf]

I've never set foot in that building, which I have heard is the home of the Illuminati. I don't believe that's the case. Yeah. I have. I'm not going to say horror stories. I'm not going to say I've heard horror stories, but I have heard that building described is. What would be the best word? Odd? Slightly maybe detached from reality at times.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Very, very senior officer heavy.

[David Burke]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. What was your experience?

[David Burke]

Accurate?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

You know, the Pentagon's an interesting place because certainly at my level. And if we went, you know, at your level, like, all you want to do is get back to an operation squadron. You don't want to be there.

[Andy Stumpf]

No.

[David Burke]

And then you get insight to things. You know, how things happen. Like, again, most of the people there are working their butts off to do good things. It is A crazy place. I did two years there. I would have never wanted to go back. But I don't look back and, like, that place sucks. I look at him like, man, there's a lot going on there. And in my mind, most of the people on the clock to get out of there, to go back to be around Marines and be around a fleet squadron. But you do get some perspective on how things happen at the most senior level. And I was on the Joint Staff, you know, as I interacted at certain times with some fairly senior folks. And you know, as well as that most of the people are doing, working hard to do a good job. That's what most of what's, what's going on. And then there's some craziness. But for me, the interesting about my, my Pentagon tour is while I was at the Pentagon, I got selected for colonel and I got selected for command, which meant I was going to finish up my two years at the Pentagon and I was going to go back as a colonel to fly the F35 again. And kind of an odd situation, but it was the first time in my career that I was going to go do something that in my mind, I'm like, I've kind of already done this. And it felt a little, for the first time, it felt stale. And I had this thought that I was going to be at the bottom of the ladder of an F35, looking up and being like, yeah, okay. And I'm like, that is an, it is an unhealthy way to fly fighters. It's actually in anything. And when I, and I told myself, I'm like, hey, you, you can't go fly F35s if you don't have. Every other time I got into an airplane, I'm like, I cannot wait to get in this airplane. As I thought about it, I'm like, okay. And I, I, I knew something had diminished in terms of my passion to do that. And as soon as I had that thought, I talked to my wife. She was like, she didn't care. Whatever you want. She was super supportive. I came back into work about two months before I pinned on colonel because he pinned on colonel. You owe them three years. And I declined promotion to colonel. I declined command for F35, and I put in for retirement.

[Andy Stumpf]

That has to raise some eyebrows. Well, at least those first two.

[David Burke]

All three.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And what's interesting about that, and it's just kind of, it's a weird administrative thing. All three go to a different chain of command. One's like manpower, one Is like the.

[Andy Stumpf]

Military in one sense.

[David Burke]

Yeah, there you go.

[Andy Stumpf]

All three go to a different.

[David Burke]

All three go different chain. And one's like the first general in your chain of command, whatever it is. So I, like had three PDFs up on my screen. Send, send, send. And I'm just like. And I'm just waiting for the phone to ring. Who's going to call first? And the first one was the, the command slate guy. The. I think it's called manpower. I can't remember what it's called. But he calls. He's like, what the hell? What the f are you doing? Anyway, long story short, I, I just knew I was going to go back. And I'm like, this is not how you're supposed to feel to fly an airplane. So I submitted for retirement and I. And that was it. That's how I got out. And it's a weird time. Most people are, oh, fives over 20 years. It's a good time to retire. Or 06 over 26. Kind of the next retirement leap.

[Andy Stumpf]

That makes sense. Yeah.

[David Burke]

I left at 0506 select at 23. Like a really odd time. But I just, just, I just knew. And I didn't, I didn't never thought I'd fly four different airplanes. I never thought it'd be a ground fact with a bunch of skills. I never thought any of these things. So at that point, I wasn't. I certainly wasn't doing it for a retirement. None of those thoughts were in my mind. It was. This is the first time since being a Marine I didn't have the same excitement I used to have about being a Marine fighter pilot. And I'm like, okay, you got to go do something else. I had no jobs, no thought. I hadn't had put any consideration on what's next. But I knew I needed to go do something different. So that's how it ended.

[Andy Stumpf]

Not a lot of people would make that choice. The easiest. Not the easiest. When people are in that spot. The known easier in air quotes, whatever that means for people is really enticing. Yeah, stick it out. You're already past 20. What is it? Every year past 20, it's 0.5 on your retirement, on your base pay only. Thank you, everybody. Special pay is not included. Yeah, that's a tough one. Especially not knowing what you wanted to do after.

[David Burke]

No plans. I just knew I needed to figure something else out. And I had time. It was the fall of. Of I think 16 of my math is right. And I was gonna, you know, I had till the Following April or May. Yeah, it wasn't like the next day. Yeah, they don't jump you out the door.

[Andy Stumpf]

They give you some time.

[David Burke]

But it was a. It was a big move. It was a big decision and certainly unexpected and something that, to be quite honest, I didn't really wrestle with it. I was like, hey, I don't feel this way. My wife and I talked and I just knew. And so the next day I just said, hey, I need to move on, to do something else.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's kind of awesome. Myself, I would have toyed with that for 18 months while I reenlisted and then made deeply in regret through the next three years, I made the wrong choice again. Why can't I never learn from my mistakes?

[David Burke]

That's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

How long was it after getting out before you started working with Jocko again? Because we're going to get to what you did with Jocko in. But I'm just curious how long that gap was.

[David Burke]

You want to hear something crazy? Is so. So I'm in the Pentagon. That's the day. I don't remember what the day was. August, whatever. I submit for all that stuff. I get out. So I'm gonna get out that day. I'm on the Pentagon bus taking me to the parking lot. Cause that's how it is at the Pentagon. You get on a bus to get to the parking lot and the phone rings and it's Leif Babbin. And he and I had stayed in touch. We were obviously in Ramadi together. And he's really good about staying in touch. And he's just a guy that we'd say connected to. In the previous year, the book Extreme Ownership came out. He invited me to a book book thing in, in D.C. where I was. And. And he had just stayed in touch. He called me on the bus and he's like, hey, man, things are really growing here. The book is being well received. Our company that he and Jocko had started, it was a two man show, is starting to pick up some traction. He's like, we'd love for you to come back with us. And I'm like, leif, funny you should call. Funny you should call. And so like, no joke, man. Like that evening I call him back and I'm like in my, in like my living room doing basically a handshake deal with Leif and Jocko, like, hey, I'm getting out. I can start working in January. I go on terminal leave in April. And they're like, cool, come to an event. Maybe they were going to do an event in Virginia. Come to an event, come check it out. Let us know what you think. I go to the event, I'm like, this is cool. And then I started working with them. It's like, like the coolest thing that's ever happened and I cannot take credit for any of it. It just sort of fell in my lap. So that transition and it quickly. And the timing of that just sort of sequenced in a way that I'm like, holy crap, I can't believe this worked out. But it did, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's funny that you describe it like that. I turned 48 on Friday and I think I've learned very little in my laps around the sun. My performance in life would be indicative that. That's a very true statement. But I have, I don't know if I've ever really been successful by trying to force stuff. What I have learned specifically, I'll say I think in my 40s, I don't think I realize this, but the less I try to control the outcome, the more often it seems that I arrive at that place and I have no explanation as to why. But now I am and constantly working on this because I have my superpowers, the ability to worry about things I can't control. It's real fun, really useful bandwidth. Just sitting there, just crushing anxiety, staring at a ceiling fan at 2 o' clock in the morning. I'm sure I'm the only one that's ever done that. If I can put it down and actually stop thinking about it. The number of times that within the next few days or in the timeline that I probably would have tried to square peg the round hole, it works itself out that way. And I don't, I mean, I don't have enough faith in myself to truly recommend that approach to anybody else. But I tell you what, it's uncanny. And the less I try to control, the more the outcome seems to be aligning with what I was looking for in the first place. Yeah. Which is scary to tell people.

[David Burke]

I think you're right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, hey, just let go of the wheel and let the Tesla auto drive do it.

[David Burke]

Well, to your point though, I mean, like, it's part of a. Putting faith in yourself. Like, hey, you've put yourself in this position and you gotta trust that it's gonna work out. You know, just like you don't just close your eyes and hope for the.

[Andy Stumpf]

Best, but it's also the volume of work you've put in. Yeah, right. Because you know, by the time you hit your fourth decade, I Don't care who you are or what you're doing. You've got some time in the trenches somewhere. You've got a dossier. Maybe you got a couple. You could separate them out into things that you've done. But in all of that, the things that are gonna come are through all that volume of work you've put in as well.

[David Burke]

100%. I agree with you. I totally agree with that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. It's just. I don't know how to teach that.

[David Burke]

Yeah. I mean, because it's a little scary. And it's on someone else too.

[Andy Stumpf]

And if I told myself that my 20s, I'd probably be dead.

[David Burke]

Oh, it'll be fine.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Oh, here's the key. Don't worry about it. And then when I didn't make my mortgage payment like you told me not.

[David Burke]

To worry about it. That's right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

There is a balance. Indeed. But I think. I think what you said is spot on. And I did that. And, you know, doesn't. And also, things don't always work out exactly the way you want, and that's okay. But this one, I cannot. I cannot take credit for this. I cannot say that. I. I certainly didn't maneuver and set up. I didn't. I just kind of just did the things that we did while we're on active duty, and the opportunity was there. And I. I. The smartest thing I ever did was take them up on their offer, like. And I knew them. I knew them from Ramadi, and I knew who they were. I had not talked to Jocko since the. Since I came back from the deployment with him. I went to a party at his house.

[Andy Stumpf]

House.

[David Burke]

Maybe two weeks after we got back. I had not seen him in 10 years. And he's like, hey, man, getting the band back together. Come join. I'm like, roger. That was kind of it.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's the difference between men and women of many. Let me be very clear on that. I have friends who are dudes. If you give me two minutes. And we haven't seen each other in seven years. We're pretty much caught up. And Back to speed.

[David Burke]

100.

[Andy Stumpf]

I have watched my wife. That does not work with my wife. She will need three years to get caught up on the two years that she just missed. And I say that with no negative judgment whatsoever. It's just fascinating to me, guys. We just don't communicate like that at all.

[David Burke]

Jocko and I picked up where we left off like it was the day before. 100%, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

Do you think that extreme ownership. I enjoyed that book, and it is still my lifelong goal to make. I'm going to write a book that is a parody of that book. It's called Extremely Limited Ownership. I've told both of them this to their face. Chapter one, there are no bad leaders, only bad teams. Leif actually recommended chapter two, which was. Nobody told me that because I had him on a text thread and I was messing with him because their book is fantastic. I don't think we both know Mark, the publisher we work with at St. Martin's because he, I think he was the editor for that book too.

[David Burke]

I think so.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't think they realized that one was gonna be as successful as it was. I think that might have caught them. I have actually asked Jocko or Leif about this, but I'm curious if they thought it would be as successful successful as it was.

[David Burke]

Yeah, I would assume they. And I put in words in his mouth that they knew it was a good book. But to predict this, you can write.

[Andy Stumpf]

A good book and have a good nowhere or nowhere in your lifetime. 100 years from now, they're like, hey, guys, we just found this ancient text. Yeah, it's called Extreme Ownership. Apparently you need to wake up at 4 and be exhausted all day and be very disciplined. And it reshapes the humanity into the arc of humankind. Yeah.

[David Burke]

I think particularly predicting this. Like, nobody could have known. I mean, what it's done. And even when I read it, you know, I, I, I, after that call, I like, got the book.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Like, damn. And read homework now.

[David Burke]

And I'm thinking like, oh, I'm gonna hear some stories or get catch up with my bros. And I'm like, oh, man, when I read it, I'm like, holy cow, this is nothing like what, what I expected. So, yeah, the, the arc of that has been remarkable.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Okay. So how did you meet Jocko? We're skipping all over time, but I love it.

[David Burke]

Yeah. So I leave, I'm at Top Gun and I'm thinking like, I had done everything I ever thought I ever wanted to do flying fighters. But you asked me earlier and I think it was a good question. It was like, I was a Marine. I wanted to be a Marine. I didn't want to just fly airplanes. I wanted to be a Marine. Now it was interesting. As I joined the Marine Corps, I got selected to fly airplanes. All the flight trainings with the Navy. I was in a carrier based squadron. So all the flyings of the Navy. And I go to Top Gun. And I wouldn't have traded a Second of that, I loved my time with the Navy. It was the best. But there was this little nagging thing in my head like, okay, I was going to get out, I'm ready to get out. I'd flown F18s, F16s, I was talking all that stuff, been on combat deployments, like, I have to do something. You, in my mind, I had to do something uniquely Marine Corps.

[Andy Stumpf]

When you were at those squadrons, did they lateral you? How did that work? Did you go back to a home unit that was a Marine Corps unit or were you attached to the Navy squadron?

[David Burke]

I was in a Marine Corps squadron in Miramar that was attached to a Navy carrier air wing.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I love the military. Yeah. So many. Of course, let's complicate this.

[David Burke]

And of the.

[Andy Stumpf]

So your chain of command was still back at Miramar, but you were operationally.

[David Burke]

Over with the Navy back and forth. So when, when we're in Miramar, we're in the Marine Corps chain of command. And at some point, like six months before deployment, it's you, it's, they call it you chop to the Navy. And so we are then on the carrier. And it might as well, we might as well have Navy painted on our jets says Marine. We're Marines, of course, but we are on it. We are one of the squadrons in a Navy carrier air wing. So for all intents and purposes, operationally we act just like a Navy squadron.

[Andy Stumpf]

Let's be honest, if anybody you're close enough for them to read that writing, they're having a really bad day. And actually you probably are too because you probably need to do it punched at that point because you're real, real low.

[David Burke]

So I spent all that time and it was awesome. I wanted to do something Marine. And the Marine Corps is the only service that does this. They take their pilots to become forward air controllers, which essentially a jtac, that's a pilot, we call it a fac. Same, same idea.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, I used to talk with them all the time. They were for a ground controller. If I could offload the stack and you know what I want? I can tell you what I want. You can manage the stack. And like, and I'm like, I'm starting to think like, okay, is it a thousand feet for this type of aircraft or two. I have a better idea. Let's let a dudes in the airplane handle all of that.

[David Burke]

So what you're saying is exactly how Leif Jocko and I got to end up working together. So I volunteer to be a four year controller. They sent me To Japan. The Japan unit is like, hey, we need volunteers to go to Iraq. I volunteer for that. We get to set up for Iraq. Long story short, my best friend was in Ramadi. I'm the one filling out who goes where. So I send myself to Ramadi with my team. So I end up in Ramadi, and I'm facing Ramadi. Not what I was thinking.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

You know, I want to be a Marine. I get to Ramadi, and in. In maybe a month, it's some relatively short period of time that I'm there that tasking a bruiser shows up. And exactly what you described, they had this incredible mindset, which was they had JTACs. They had dudes that were fully qualified and capable of controlling airplanes. They were also SEALs.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And the question was, the SEALs, my Anglico team, my team of Marines, we were all there to support the Army. And when we got together in these briefs, you know, Jocko and Leif and I would talk, and they're like, hey, why don't you do all the air stuff? And my jtacs can be. Be seals. And I'm like, this is perfect, because I don't want to be a seal. I want to control air. And what that meant was my team. And. And it was mostly Lace platoon because Jocko had split up his task unit between east and West. But we had an Anglico team with them, too. So I'm doing most of my works with Charlie Platoon is. I essentially just connect with them. So all the operations, they were doing anything in Valdera, which was just about everything. I'm the fac. And it makes sense for what you said is I understand how the. I'm literally talking to friends, old squadron mates doing type 1 gun runs in F18s. And to that point, like, who better to do that than an F18 pilot? So it just turned out that we both realized that we could help each other out by just doing what we are really capable of doing. And we had to do it together because we were supporting a larger 5,500 dude. We soldiers in. In a brigade, and it just made more sense to work together. So I end up doing tons and tons of operations with them. And so you know how it is.

[Andy Stumpf]

You.

[David Burke]

You build a good relationship and you learn to trust each other. I never thought in the summer of 2006, as a. As a fact, in. In Ramadi with Jocko's task unit, that 10 years later I'd be working at his company. You don't have those thoughts?

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, he probably never Thought he was gonna have a company.

[David Burke]

No, no way. Not then. But it was all built on in Ramadi. And in 2006, Ramadi was a brutal place. There was a lot going on and we were busy and it was crazy. And I, to this day, I was really lucky to have those guys around me because I was in over my head, man. I was a fighter pilot that got dropped down in the middle of downtown Ramadi in 2006.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, what could go wrong?

[David Burke]

Yeah, what could go wrong? And listen, I understood airplanes. I knew Cass, I understood all that stuff. But urban battlefield in Ramadi in 06, so I'm surrounded by. I could not have been more lucky to be around those guys. And so I really, I revered working with them. We had a great relationship. And so fast forward 10 years later, we had that connection. And I think there was just this natural sense of they wanted to bring someone in, and it was, I was someone they knew as a known quantity, having our time been together. That's my, that's my. How did I get to work with Leif and Jaco?

[Andy Stumpf]

That's the story. Story. So you were out on patrol and on missions with those guys?

[David Burke]

All of it, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

I, I, So I've been trying to think of the schools that I went to. First one I got sent to was comm school, which I wasn't super stoked about. And then I realized, oh, hey, you always need a comm guy. This isn't bad. Then I got to go to sniper school. Like, this is a classic pair and getting even better. Then out to Fallon for the JTAC course. And I've talked, you know, people, they're optic on war is the same as my opticon aviation, which is movies. Right. They. I've had people ask me, well, when they're shooting at you, why don't you just drop a bomb on them? And I'll just Google on my phone overhead image of Ramadi, put it out there and be like, where would you like where you want to put that? Where you want to put that? Oh, and by the way, how are you going to describe that to a dude that's at 10, 000ft?

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

A little bit more complex.

[David Burke]

Indeed.

[Andy Stumpf]

And that's the answer why.

[David Burke]

Yeah. That is the world that I lived in. You, you were extravaging that. Exactly right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Big to small can be real tough. Yeah. Yeah.

[David Burke]

The world at 10, 20,000ft looks very different from the world on the ground.

[Andy Stumpf]

When I went up in that backseat ride, that's actually what it was designed for, was For JTAX at the command to go up. You want to talk about. You know, I've heard pilots talk about it because they'll ask us, you know, hey, what. I'm like, I told you to put it in the red building. Yeah.

[David Burke]

They're like, come on, dude. Cool.

[Andy Stumpf]

Where's the red? It's next to the tree. How can you not see this? Getting my ass handed to me. Save me now. They're just like. I'm like 80 kilometers away. I'm looking with my sensor. I don't see a red tree. Which, by the way, it's black and white camera going up in the back. It actually. Even when I was simulating the calls, it changed the vernacular instantly because I could talk off of what they could see versus what I could see on the ground. And they are not. Not the same language.

[David Burke]

No.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or same template. I mean, and how could they be. I could see. You know, I can see line of sight. If there were no buildings, I could see. I don't know, what is it, 12 miles of the horizon. But realistically, you're gonna. You could see two blocks. That's way different than a guy who can see the curvature of the earth. It's a challenging problem. Man.

[David Burke]

Your description is so good, man. And that's exactly. That is exactly what I was thinking of. That's exactly what I was trying to do. And that. That was the world that I lived in.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And. And I can tell you, I went back to flying after being a fac and I was way better in the cockpit. Understanding what that perspective was, it made me so much better.

[Andy Stumpf]

Here's a real rated call I'm not super proud of. I may or may not have told an aircraft to just drop a bomb in a field one time so I could at least talk them on from there. Because I was so unsuccessful at explaining where we were. Like, listen, I don't care where you put it. It don't hit any buildings.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Drop something from your aircraft and I'll at least give you a cardinal direction. This isn't working on the mark. Yeah.

[David Burke]

I love that.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, I didn't know what else to do.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I tried everything. The big to small. I'm like, we're not. And. And another thing to remember, man. I'm stationary. These aircraft are orbiting. Like, come on.

[David Burke]

And you know this too from being in the airplane. Both guys, the guys in the ground there. Everybody's doing their best.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. And you're talking past each other's having a macchiato. Yeah.

[David Burke]

And you're and you're getting the frustration especially. And I learned this too, obviously, being on the ground in firefights, like, you know how imminent that is. And so every second you're trying to explain something, it's just another second going by. Or like that the time. So your description is exactly right. That was the world I lived in with Leif and Jocko for that time in Ramadi. It was a crazy time.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's a little different optic like getting in a gunfight in an, in an alleyway or a street.

[David Burke]

Indeed.

[Andy Stumpf]

I couldn't do what you guys did, mostly because I would probably eject when I couldn't find the aircraft carrier. I definitely would have been retired for multiple ejections. It's like this. It's not looking good. I've got to punch out like, sir, you're at 35, 000ft and it's a VFR. I'm like, I feel like I'm lost. I'm out. But man, I tell you what, the up front, on the street, like you said, the snaps, the one whizzes going by your head, it's, it's, it'll get your attention.

[David Burke]

It will. There's a lot more than I bargained for.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. How was your first experience with that?

[David Burke]

I mean, terrifying. It was, it was awful. You know, I certainly never.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then it never got not terrifying. Welcome to the real world.

[David Burke]

Well, that was Ramadi. Right.

[Andy Stumpf]

And.

[David Burke]

And that was what that was as you got there. And once, once, I mean, once, the first time you're in a firefight, you know, you're like, holy cow. I mean, I have these vivid memories of bullets cracking, all that stuff. But it just, it was just so persistent there. And it got to a place like we were doing a ton of movement to contact, and if you just think about what that mission is, just like, this is crazy. Like we're just gonna walk till we find people to get into a fight with. I was really busy, which helped because controlling air is a busy thing. You're, you're pre planning, you're coordinating, you're working with them before things happen, when things happen.

[Andy Stumpf]

So were you trying to keep their eyes on you or your general area before it kicked off?

[David Burke]

As often as possible.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's the only way to do it.

[David Burke]

As often as possible. Sometimes you don't have it and you have to be reactionary. But the good news is you're very busy, as a fact, and it's good to be busy. You don't want to spend spending a bunch of time just doing nothing, waiting for bad things to happen. So I learned how to function in that environment. I learned how to operate well outside of my comfort zone. But I'd be lying to you if I ever told you, like, yeah, I got used to it. I didn't. And nobody I know, in some ways, nobody ever does. But, dude, dude, the seals that I work with, like, those guys were awesome. And the soldiers, too. I don't mean just the seals, but there was times that I was operating like, thank God these guys are with. Or I'm with these guys. Thank God. Because I had a niche. A niche, whatever that word is. I had a narrow skill set. I could really contribute. What I did, really helped and mattered. But I honestly, man, I operated those seven months there thinking like, what the hell is. How did I get here? What am I doing here? And I can't tell you how many times bullets have snapped over my head. I can't tell you how many times I went through that. And every time I'm like, fuck am I doing here? You know, I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Here I am on the ground, and certainly the most dynamic combat I ever experienced was on the ground. So it was a trial by fire for the entire time.

[Andy Stumpf]

It would be a reasonable thought to go through your head of, where do they find these idiots who want to do this job? Exactly what kind of IQ waiver was required to find these gentlemen that are walking the streets?

[David Burke]

It's a.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's a unique community.

[David Burke]

It is.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know if it's niche or niche either. I have heard it said so many ways.

[David Burke]

I went to a state school. I don't know.

[Andy Stumpf]

I didn't go to any school, fortunately. I just. I mean, I know what. They both mean the same thing, so when I hear it, I just go along with it.

[David Burke]

But, yeah, crazy times, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's my history with those guys.

[David Burke]

Lucky to be there or.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Or unlucky. I mean, I. I go back and forth on a lot of my military experiences. I was either. I mean, for me, it's all net positive. Even the worst things that I've experienced in my life have made me the person I am today. But I wonder, are those experiences, Are we lucky to have them or people who never have to even consider them, are they lucky? I don't know the answer to that.

[David Burke]

Yeah, it's a fair question. I mean, I know we don't get a choice, and I certainly look back.

[Andy Stumpf]

And we kind of have a choice. We both volunteered.

[David Burke]

Yeah, we had a choice. Yeah, that's fair.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know, we had the, the faint outline of a choice.

[David Burke]

I certainly look back and know like I am certainly who I am now because of all those things. Yeah, without a doubt. And that experience too, a ground flack and Ramadi in 06, you're like, okay, that is the most influential year of my life in my military career. No doubt about it.

[Andy Stumpf]

What do you think your life would look like without those experiences? Because this is one thing I've thought about, because people, the SEAL community, actually, I'll take that. I'll go even broader with this. The military profession, a profession of arms as dumb as I truly believe it to be, they use time in combat and in some elements, the number of people that you have killed as the ultimate metric. And what's lost in that is the community of people that put me through training existed in between Vietnam and 9 11. They were some of the most tactically proficient operators that I've ever seen. They never got to express that in real life. But I would ask guys this when they would poo poo on the previous generations, I'd say, hold on a sec. Who put you through? Buds, especially my era, they're like, oh, instructor so and so. I'm like, yeah, you know, he actually got out before 911 and never experienced combat or never got the chance to take somebody's life, which is a good thing that he didn't have to make that decision. But he helped you become who you are. So why is it that we're here using that as a metric? Because we're either lucky that we got to experience this or unlucky that we have to bear the burden of the people who are serving during this time period. And I wonder what it would have been like. I mean, do you think you would have. Your life would look differently if we had just served in peacetime?

[David Burke]

I do. I think that. And the irony in my combat experience, certainly in the time with Task Unibruiser, is I think without that experience and I think without a lot of the other military experiences that I had later in my career, I think the irony that is is. How do I say this?

[Andy Stumpf]

Today's episode is brought to you by Element. You can say it Element or you can say lmnt, which is actually what it says on the products, some of which I have here right in front of me. This is all about your hydration recovery electrolyte game. You guys hear this? That's what one of these little satchels sounds like in this thing, which this one is a Watermelon salt, one of my favorite flavors. Even though right now lemonade salt is even better. 1,000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, 60 milligrams of magnesium. I'll be going back to Costa Rica with my wife and family in December for a jujitsu seminar at Hero bjj. And the temperature there is always the temperature there. It's a minimum of two of these per day. They absolutely make me feel like I can be a functional human being. After hours of jiu jitsu in very hot temperatures, comparatively to where I live, in high humidity, even outside exercise. One of these per day is what I go with. Usually it'll start in the morning. If I'm going to do jiu jitsu that day, I do it at after class. This isn't the only expression though. They have sparkling water, 16 ounce cans and they just came out with 12 ounce cans as well. And with that they came out with some other flavors. Pineapple salt. It may not sound good. It's my favorite 12 ounce can. And in there they did the lemonade, which is one of their newer flavors. The 12 ounce cans I believe have half of what's in one of these little satchels here. So you can find all of that [e-mail] cleared hot. And if you go over there, I suggest ordering the sample pack because that'll let you know what flavor you like. They make spicy ones that are great at margaritas. They make chocolate flavor ones that are great in hot chocolate or seasonal beverages. The summertime they went with the lemonade salt, which legit tastes like lemonade you used to drink in the summer. It's fantastic. You're knocking out again in every one of these things. A thousand milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, 60 milligrams of magnesium. The best description I have, if you're old enough to remember the old Tron movie, they go and they drink from the water with their little Frisbee disc and they start glowing more. That's what it feel like when you rehydrate with one of these bad boys after a strenuous exercise engagement. Drinklmnt.com cleared hot. Your body will thank you. Back to the show.

[David Burke]

I learned to not be so full of myself like 21 year old Dave Burke, flight student Dave Burke, first fleet tour Dave Burke, even Top Gun instructor Dave Burke. There's a self centeredness that I. My ego has always been a challenge for me. Always trying to keep my ego in.

[Andy Stumpf]

Track, you're talking about mirrored aviators and ascots.

[David Burke]

There you go.

[Andy Stumpf]

You can't.

[David Burke]

And you have this sense of, like, you are the center of the universe. And I struggled with that. And the more experienced I got, the more I realized, like, man, there is it. There's so much more going on around you. And I think the lessons that I learned is help me look at the big picture. Take things in. Not take things for granted and not. And recognize that you are not the center of the world.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

The more difficult, the things that I did in my time in the military, certainly that combat fact, deployment, ground deployment, I think is the ones that taught me the greatest lessons in humility of, hey, dude, you are one of a lot of people, and you could not do any of this by yourself. And I learned that along the way, but it really, really got hammered in me in Ramadi.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think it compresses the timeline.

[David Burke]

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know, to use Jacob Leith's book as an example, Extreme Ownership. Let's say they had their careers, but it was during peacetime. So they could have used stories that involved training environments. But I don't know if that would land as well with the audience. And nor would there maybe have been the appetite, because it would have been a peacetime environment. The lessons are still equally as valuable. I just. I wonder where it would have landed. And again, I don't have any answers to this stuff, but this is stuff that I think about now, looking back into the fishbowl, the way you describe that.

[David Burke]

The compression of that. The. The amount I got from that short.

[Andy Stumpf]

Period of time, it was a decade's worth of experience. Smash into six. That's right.

[David Burke]

100%.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I would say that those same experiences as well. But I also think, man, if it had been peacetime, God, I might still be in right now. I don't know. I'd be. Let's see. Would I have even switched? I wouldn't have gotten shot, so I wouldn't have switched over to being an officer when I was rehabbing. Yeah, I'd have been an E9. I would have been a real leadership challenge. E9 over 30. Definitely red hash marks. There'd be no gold on the uniform because I would have gotten in trouble. Well, rephrase that. Continued to get in trouble. First time I said jocko show.

[David Burke]

He.

[Andy Stumpf]

He goes, what rank did you get in the most trouble at? And I sat there, I was like, I think an equal amount at all to include distributed to include when I switched over to being. Because he, I mean, he's known me for a while. He's like, God, I don't know how you possibly survived.

[David Burke]

Amazing. That's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not recommending anybody take my path. I'm just saying I had a pretty good view as I was cruising along and tripping all over the place and falling off of it sometimes.

[David Burke]

Indeed. Yeah. It's compressed. That's a good way to draw it.

[Andy Stumpf]

It is compressed. I do think. I think you can get there, but I think it would have taken a lot longer for those lessons to land. And I think that's a natural part of getting older too. I think we, we probably would have learned those lessons later in our life. I'm very thankful for that compression. The cost of that compression. I don't have the vocabulary to describe, especially on the families I've, you know, seen destroyed through loss and all those things. I mean, there's a cost to that compression for sure, but impactful. I'm appreciative of the experiences that I had for sure.

[David Burke]

Yeah. Same.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. So what do you do with Echelon front now?

[David Burke]

So I am the chief development officer.

[Andy Stumpf]

Really?

[David Burke]

I get that's a fake term. It's a.

[Andy Stumpf]

These are made up names.

[David Burke]

All names are made up. That's 100% a made up name. Does that even mean I develop?

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm the chief at developing stuff?

[David Burke]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's like, what does that even mean?

[David Burke]

It's a total made up name. But what I do get to develop is, is how do we teach this stuff? So the book is awesome, right? The book. And I love that that book is the foundation of all the things we teach. But you can't just tell, say, hey, read this book and do this stuff. In this book. You got to figure out. And Leif and Jocko built all this. And I've been with them from the very beginning. I'm super lucky to have been there from really the ground floor when they started to grow beyond the two of them is how are you going to teach this to people in a way that makes sense and resonates to them? And you said this. Well, you at 18 is different than you at 48. Right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, God. And I actually struggle to even recognize. And if I'm being totally Honest, remember the 18 year old, I have been hit in the head a few times, you know.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

A slight exposure to concussive blasts. Some of it's my own doing. Some of it somebody, you know, other people were doing but it adds up over time.

[David Burke]

It does.

[Andy Stumpf]

I, I, God, I wish I could get a hold of my 18 year old. Oh my God. You know, the problem is though, I wouldn't have listened. No, neither of us wouldn't have listened. That's right. Right. But what I think I would have listened to is the advice I would have given myself about bitcoin. Okay, first reenlistment bonus.

[David Burke]

Put it on bitcoin.

[Andy Stumpf]

I would be a billionaire right now. We wouldn't be doing this show.

[David Burke]

We share so many similar.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because I'd be flying my own personal jet to my house in Aspen and then flying my A star around.

[David Burke]

That's right. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'd be like, listen, mess up as much as you want, but please just figure out a way to buy bitcoin. You're going to be okay. And then you got to figure out a way to live too because you're going to need that bitcoin money.

[David Burke]

Good advice. Get back in that time machine. Machine.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

Short of that, I would have, I.

[Andy Stumpf]

Would have ignored everything else.

[David Burke]

Yeah, totally. We, same, same with me. So in that vein, like we have gotten to figure out how do you deliver? Like you said, it's all the same lessons, they all apply. Home, work, it's all the same stuff. But you have to figure out a way to communicate this in a way that will reach people at different places in their life, in different industries, at different jobs. Frontline leaders versus CEOs. I know it's all the same stuff, but as you know too, like you got to communicate that. And so we have developed a way to do that. And that's essentially what, what Jocko has helped allowed me to do is like figure out how to, how to do this. And so there's a lot of different ways to teach what we teach, but you got to maintain the core and the root of it. But I'm talking to 18 year old Dave or 18 year old you know, Andy, whoever. What that job is, what that role is, what that person's open mindedness is, is going to be a little bit different from someone else. And we have to, we have to cover all those bases and reach them in the same effective way. And as you know, that can be a challenge.

[Andy Stumpf]

I, since I've gotten out, I, of course people think I have a overarching structure to my life. And I just had a list at some point, first I will do this and then upon successfully completing that, I will make this decision and do this role. And then this role. I am literally, I trip over stuff And I lose things along the way. And it's like, oh, I guess I'm pointed in this direction now and my life is falling apart, so let's make this choice. And then that wasn't good. Maybe we'll go back and find the. I just like a blind dude without a cane walking around through traffic like real life Frogger. But, you know, I've been able to accomplish a lot of the things along the way. And one thing that this is a realization I came. So I did a good amount of public speaking after getting out of the military, fell into that 100%. A buddy of mine owned a company in San Diego and he had the speaker fall out. And the speaker was going to talk about teamwork. And he goes, hey, man, here we're going to place called the SEAL Teams, right? And I said, technically, yes. He goes, would you fill in? Because obviously if the name of the building says that you know everything about teamwork, right. So completely put him on mute and just started laughing out loud like, sure did the speech. Don't even remember what I said. I bet it was not great. And another person in the crowd, and this was right as I was getting out of the military and for $0 free, you know, 0 free 30. And there was a guy in the audience who was his friend who had their own business. And I think the first speaking gig I did was for him. It was like 250 bucks. Which at the time I was like, I am pretty rich right now. Nobody's ever spoken for an hour and got $250. But it built over time. And you know, people want to know about leadership.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

If there's any topic, and it is actually my favorite one because I do believe it is the most effective weapon that humans have access to. And you and I have been around some pretty awesome weapons. Like the Moab. I really like that thing. That's an awesome. Never seen one in person, but it's deeply in my feed. I have a few say videos of it. Leadership. It exceeds the capability of all the stuff that we are around. But the mistake I had is I thought that the SEAL community had it dialed and figured out and they were this incubator for only amazing leaders. Then I had the experience while in the SEAL community of working for the single worst leader I've ever experienced in my entire life. And I realized from the outside, if you were to line up Seal Team 5, say it's in the fall, so we're in our dress blues, little uniform inspection. My favorite as the shifting colors and you were to bring in my 50 CEOs. We all look the same to a degree, right? The same color uniform, different flare pieces, all that stuff. So to those 50 CEOs, let's say they're the top CEOs of Fortune 50 companies. They would look out there and they would say, you guys are amazing. You are probably the best leaders, have the best understanding of teamwork. But meanwhile, everybody's standing in those rows knows exactly who is an absolute piece of shit, who can't lead, who is driven by their ego, but it's invisible. And I realized I used to open with talking about the military leadership model and oftentimes I still do, but now it's more of a warning. Be very cautious trying to jam the military leadership model into your organization. I'm not saying it can't fit it, but if you think horsepower is the answer, you're in trouble. And I talk about that. The best leaders I've ever been around and the worst leaders I've ever been around, they wore the same uniform. The reason that they succeeded though, is the people that work for them wouldn't let them fail because the mission was more important than anything. And I have never seen that level of buy in replicated at a civilian company. So if you try to force that and you have a leader that sucks, people are going to go like, oh, I was trying to catch you, but I missed. Whereas that's not allowed in the teams. So it makes it look like it's this community of unicorns. I have had my fair share experiences of leaders from the outside looking successful in spite of who they are, not because of who they are. It was the people underneath them that propped them up and then would go let the air out of their tires at the end of a training evolution. But from a performance perspective, you would never know.

[David Burke]

Yeah, these two things I think are so good. One is the bell curve is everywhere.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Even the highest performing team, guess what, has a turd comparison. Now, first off, the highest performing team, their turd is going to crush everybody else, but in comparison to that team, he still sucks.

[David Burke]

Yeah, but you said the other point too is that leadership like, like that is the most powerful thing and how often that is overlooked, that people think, oh, you know, you were born like that or you, you were, that was bestowed upon you. And like, no, no, no, no, no. If you got someone in your life, you look up and put them on a pedestal as a good leader. They learned that. They learned that. And so I think that comment about the power of that Is exactly right. I mean, and that is something that, you know, even raising kids like, hey, this is a tool that you're going to use and need in every aspect of your life. Every aspect of your life.

[Andy Stumpf]

So the coffee shop I met you at, I'm a partial owner of that. Our average barista, age 19. Let me tell you what a Montana 19 year old is not really bought in on. Nobody wants to huck lattes across the counter as a vocation in life. So I know it's going to be transitory in the SEAL teams. I could be so directive with what I told people to do and they had no choice. Now, that's not the model that I chose, but I could have. And they would have done it. Not maybe because they wanted to, but because they had to. If I took that approach at the coffee shop and I said, hey guys, I'm going to lead you like I led young seals. And boats are in the back and we got hoses, all I would have is no call, no shows leadership at that coffee shop. People don't believe me when I say this is more difficult than leadership in the SEAL teams because they're all there for different reasons. They're not contractually obligated. They didn't go through some. I mean, don't get me wrong, we train our staff, but it's a little bit different than buds. So they go through the requisite amount of training, but I'm not putting them through a crucible or a course that's designed to weed them out. Because I would like to make money at the some point by selling coffee and I barely know how to use the point of sale system. And you definitely don't want me making your. Actually I can make a latte, but if you ask for anything else, you're going to get a latte, because that's what I know how to make. And I could probably do a pump of syrup. I got that part figured out too. You do the syrup first, then you pour the stuff and you gotta, it's. You gotta whisk it. But I can't take the model that I was raised under and apply it there.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And people, they don't get it. Did. And when I try to tell organizations, I'm like, listen, you guys ever met a military member that didn't meet the expectation that you had when you hired them? And everybody says yes, because did you guys ever hire somebody because of their role in the military and you put them in a leadership role at your civilian organization and it just, it just didn't go well. And they'll all say yes. Like, listen, if the military service itself was the secret sauce, you would never see that. That. So there has to be something more than that, and that's where we have to dive in and figure it out. Like, I. It's tough. I mean, every one of those employees is motivated in a different way. And so I approach them in a different way and different vernacular. And some I can joke around with, others I can't joke around with at all. And some it's like, you're having a really bad day. I am actually just going to go back out the front door. I came in because I don't feel comfortable being in my own business. I don't want to deal with that.

[David Burke]

Yeah, I mean, it's.

[Andy Stumpf]

You said it, too.

[David Burke]

Like, telling people what to do and imposing your will on them is not leadership.

[Andy Stumpf]

It.

[David Burke]

And it's a strategy. Yeah. Right. See how that. In the long term, how's that going to work out for you? So I think that's a great example. Like, you got to lead those people, and you just start telling them what to do. They're like, it doesn't work.

[Andy Stumpf]

And that's what people think the military is, though.

[David Burke]

And you're right. That's that image. And.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well. And again, they're optic. I don't blame them. Whether it's a. It's a book or a TV show or a movie. Yeah. Oh, God. And I get the. I've done a little bit of technical advising. There's always this balance between authenticity and entertainment.

[David Burke]

Right.

[Andy Stumpf]

In the way I have seen it, entertainment will win out more often than authenticity. But they think it's Full Metal Jacket. Yeah, The. The drill instructor, which, by the way, that guy's awesome. And you know the backstory behind that, right?

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

He was supposed to train the actor who couldn't get it, and they were like, how about you just do you. And he goes, hold my beer and just fires off.

[David Burke]

So cool, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

But that's only. That's your jump from being a civilian to being a Marine. The mistake I think people make is that they believe that that's how leadership is applied after those environments. And the best enlisted leader that I ever worked for would never have to yell at me, ever. If he did, it actually would probably diminish my performance. All he needed to do was explain to me what needed to get done and why, and I would kill myself to make sure I lived up to his standard. It is the opposite of the gunny sergeant in Full Metal Jacket. Because that's not the environment. After that transition you have to break people of me and turn them into a Wii centric person. That's the role of the gunnery sergeant. Except for that particular guy, I feel like he might have been like that in all leadership roles. And that's okay. Sometimes you have a black swan.

[David Burke]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts. Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage? Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you Teach me. So Dana. Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mob. We'll get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's designed to be the most powerful.

[David Burke]

Iphone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system. Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Andy Stumpf]

Nice.

[David Burke]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Andy Stumpf]

T mobile is the best place to.

[David Burke]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.

[Andy Stumpf]

Us with eligible traded in any condition.

[David Burke]

So what are we having for launch? Dude, my work here is done. The 24 month bill credits on experience beyond well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credits ended, balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required.

[Andy Stumpf]

Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove speed test intelligence.

[David Burke]

Data 1H 2025 visit t mobile.com you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Know.

[David Burke]

Everything you said I think is exactly right. And that image, when you live it and you're like, oh, that's not how it is. And that's not what good effective leadership is. And you realize like, oh my God, this stuff is the same everywhere. And you said that an hour ago. It's the same everywhere. I understand you got to deliver it differently and you got to communicate a little bit differently, but the lessons are the same. And leadership, the image we get is like, I stand up like, hey, everybody, do what I say. Follow me. And it's sometimes almost like, hey, that looks so cool. But it actually doesn't work. You tell people what to do and force your will on them and impose on them and make them follow what you want. And listen, I'm raising kids. Try that on your kids.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, I have three myself. You want to talk about the journey in leadership?

[David Burke]

Totally. And you said it earlier too. Like, I can impose my will on my son for now, for a little while when he's physically, if I wanted to. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And when he's physically in my presence.

[David Burke]

But you know what happens in the long term. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or even, you know, I, whatever. I lock him down in the house and I force this, that or the other. I remember what happened. And of course I never deserved that to happen ever. It was never based off my behavior. It was my parents being. They were being unfair. I was framed. Probably not, but it just doesn't, but you know, it doesn't work. Well, it only works when you physically are in the same proximity. The second I left the house, I was probably pissed at the way that I treated and it might actually get me to exhibit behavior the exact opposite out of spite because I was a. That's right. Idiotic 17 year old kid.

[David Burke]

That's rebellion, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's exactly right.

[David Burke]

You hit the nail on the head. That's exactly right.

[Andy Stumpf]

So, yeah, try that. That. Watch. What? Well, you're not going to watch. You'll get knocks on the door from the police. Let me tell you how fun that is. That's always a good one.

[David Burke]

You got, you can't, you can't impose your will on people. It just doesn't work. It does not work.

[Andy Stumpf]

No, it doesn't. But that is, it's crazy how that is what people think it is. Yeah, the, the best leaders I ever worked for, I, I, I don't think they were trying to speak softly, but it was a normal tone of voice or softly because people have to listen more intently.

[David Burke]

Yeah. And you can set too. Like if they just explain the why, you go, oh, that makes sense. Cool. I can get after that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, and sometimes, and you know this as well as anybody else, sometimes you don't have time to explain the why there is in an environment where you're prepping for something or, and I got this, you know, we went over into theater and they were, they're like, hey guys, by the way, night raids are over and you can no longer, you know, go into villages at nighttime. I'm like, like what? We're sacrificing our tactical and technological advantage and there was going to be a mutiny of the guys. So I'm like, who wrote this? Like, can I get as high up the food chain as possible? Can ask some questions? Why are we doing this? What can we do? What can I operate inside of this? You explain that in that time period and it like was like letting air out of the balloon. It reduced the stress and we realized like, yeah, we can go into the, we can go into the villages. I don't want to say cities, because that's not what they really are. And you know what? We can even put ladders up on walls and get to a tactically abent contagious position. We're just not going to make entry. But you know what? Maybe we're going to surround and call it anyway so we're going to be able to get around this. If they were just told, hey, no nighttime stuff at all. Just go ahead. You know, make sure you bring your nods, but put them in a pocket, you're going to have an absolute mutiny on your hands. So in that environment, I could explain the why, but if you have leadership capital built up and it gets to a place where like, hey, dude, go left and do this. They're like, yep, roger that. Because they'll get the why later on. Yeah, but if you're already a bankrupt with that capital.

[David Burke]

That's exactly right.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's like, maybe you go that way and I'll shoot you in the back.

[David Burke]

Yeah, that leadership capital concept. And you better be building that as often as you can, because sometimes Jocko tells the story. I always like the way he told the story is, you know, you guys are on a. On a. On a. You're clearing a house or something. He's like, hey, bust that door. And you know, like, hey, you know, Jocko just could take a quick pause here. Can you explain to me why we're doing like, yeah, we. There are times we cannot have this conversation. But the only way you bust that door or do that is, is. Is if every other opportunity I have, we've talked and explained and understood and gone back and forth and go, oh, this guy. I can trust this guy, Dave. Because you're right. Sometimes you can't do it. But if you have no leadership capital, zero, Even when you need that immediate reaction, you're not going to get it. And so you got to be thinking, that's your call. Yeah, it's brutal.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

You got to be thinking about that all the time. Build that leadership capital.

[Andy Stumpf]

I describe it as in terms of withdrawals and deposits. Thinking about it like my. Exactly.

[David Burke]

Right, right.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's just. It's like every. And I try to tell people every. If you're in a leadership position, this is another thing that's lost on people, too. I was never. I probably only did one true leadership position by actual position of definition, like in a leadership role in a platoon. My favorite times were I was just in E5. They're like, Here's a machine gun and a shotgun. And you just go, I Was like, can I stay here forever? But when I got into that leadership role, I aged. In dog years, I had never been more. I was so worried I was going to fall short or say something or do something that was going to cost somebody their life or get them injured. And I was also infinitely aware that whether or not I thought I was in a leadership role, if the people around me considered me to be in one. And this is when I try to harp with people because they're like, well, I'm having, I'm not necessarily understanding this from a professional perspective. Like, okay, are you a parent? Okay, do you think that's a leadership role? Because if you don't, I have another brief for you which is called you're an idiot. And that's the title. And it's only one slide and you can take this home and study it at will. But there's no more important role. All of my kids bad behaviors. Like, I love it when parents will say, my kids have got such a potty mouth and I just don't know where they got it from. I'm like, really? Because I've known you for years and I know exactly where it came from. And, and I try so hard to set a good example for my kids. I swear though, they are pre programmed to only pick up the mistakes and the negative things that I do. And it's like the positives, like, because sometimes I'll have a success. I'm even be like, did you guys see that? And they're like on their phone, I'm like, oh my God. And then I'll do something boneheaded. And they're not on their phone and they're just all staring at you. Why now? Get on your phone. Don't pay attention to me.

[David Burke]

That's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

But, but if you're in that leadership role, everybody is watching you, everybody is listening and they're like sponges. And if you don't think about it in terms of withdrawals and deposits, man, I personally, when I hit bankrupt with people with trust, I've never been able to put trust back in them.

[David Burke]

You're saying it's exactly right. And to that point too, this concept of like, like deposits and withdrawals is another thing when we talk about this is most people like, hey, how's your leadership capital account? I'm like, oh, I'm a billionaire. They think they're overflowing with it and.

[Andy Stumpf]

Actually meanwhile, they're overdrawn.

[David Burke]

That's right. And that's all of us is your attitude should not be Like, I have unlimited leadership capital. In fact, it should be the opposite, which is, every chance I get, I need to be making a deposit and we make these little withdrawals and we realize, we don't realize, like, hey, man, you've been taking all this money out and your, your balance is getting down to zero. And at some point, if you go bankrupt, just like you said, man, especially on that trust account, it is almost possible.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I actually canvas audience audiences when I speak because I talk about it in those terms.

[David Burke]

That's exactly right.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I, and I tell people I'm not a fan of absolutes. I think as soon as you say always and never, you're very likely, especially just given it a long enough timeline, you're going to be wrong. But I'll ask him, like, honestly, how many of you, first off have had the experience where you had immense trust in somebody and then it hit zero and almost everybody's hands will go up. Usually younger people have it. And I just go, don't worry, it's coming. Remember this for later, because life's. Life's coming for you.

[David Burke]

It's happening.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then I ask him again, how many of you, truly, even if you have tried as hard as you can, have been able to put trust back into that person? I haven't had a hand. Come on.

[David Burke]

Yeah, I agree, man. Completely.

[Andy Stumpf]

Floating checks in the leadership capital world is ballsy. People do it all the time. All the time.

[David Burke]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, leadership is tough. I am by no means an expert at it, but those, to me, those are the gems from that world that I think we are responsible to try to pay forward.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because if you look at our occupation, I mean, the stats are the stats. I think 0.5% of the US population is currently serving. I think peak was in World War I or 2, but a lot of this was from the draft. Six percent of the population at that time. So not a lot of people are exposed to that compressed learning time period. I think we are obligated to try to pass those lessons, lessons forward. But how you pass them forward, it's. I've struggled with this and I've seen other people struggle. You have to find. I can't take, I can't take somebody and run them under a boat for a week. I would if I could. Don't get me wrong. I'm still trying to figure out how to get somebody to pay me to torture them the way I was paid. Because that's what you do with generational trauma, is you pass it on that's what I've been told. At least. This is where Jock looks at me and goes, how did you possibly survive in the sale committee? I'm like, I don't know. How did you survive, weirdo? With your English degrees, it's like, where's your quill? Why don't you go write something in cursive, weirdo? But it's how you take that lesson. And where I've seen people struggle is an inability to connect with their team or organization or audience. Because the lessons are so awesome. But how you get them across, call it the blood brain barrier is the tough part.

[David Burke]

Yeah, 100%. That is the toughest part. No doubt. Yeah. I'm totally aligned with you, man. What you're saying is exactly right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Well, I need you to figure out an effective way to do that. And then I'm gonna steal it and claim it as my own. So. I mean, you're the one who wrote a book on leadership.

[David Burke]

Indeed.

[Andy Stumpf]

I wrote a book on my mistakes which isn't even out yet. Which means I could probably work on the second book because we now, when the book comes out, let me tell you, there's going to be more.

[David Burke]

Well, the good news about the book is that every chapter is straight up a failure. It's like I knew when I was writing it I had to write if it was going to work. It was going to be the biggest mistake. So in that book, every chapter is a mistake.

[Andy Stumpf]

Did you think, did you like, there's Jack Carrs of the world who. And he didn't share this with us while we were in because he was smart, because we would have crushed him. He knew he wanted to be an author and he's slaying it. His work is fantastic, but he knew he wanted to be an author. I am 100% an accidental author. I'll tell you the story of how I ended up, dude. I got tricked into this by a friend who told me he was going to write his half of the book. And we were going to do a test, two chapters, and it came to the day we were going to share. And he goes, oh, yeah, I didn't write anything. That's how I got tricked into this. Legitimately. Thought I was only going to do half. How did you fall into wanting to write?

[David Burke]

Right. Jocko made me do it, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

Nobody can make you do it.

[David Burke]

He made me do it.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's like people saying instructor Stumpf made me quit. It's like facilitated the environment where you're here. Went to the bell.

[David Burke]

He said, Something to the effect of, if you have lessons that you can share to make other people's lives better and you don't do that, you're committing. And this is the word to use a mortal sin.

[Andy Stumpf]

First off, he's a little bit too theatrics at times. I'll say this to his face, Mike. Jocko, you're at a 10. I need you to 6. All right, let's just back it off. Let's go. Jocko. Small J, right? You're Jocko, all caps, yelling at me. For some reason, I don't even know why. Like, take it easy.

[David Burke]

So we'll just take the mortal sin and just call it a sin. But he's like, hey, man, you have to do this. And we. I did get to a point where I. I absolutely did not want to write this book. I mean, it's. But when he talked about, hey, are there things that you have learned in your life? And that's how this book became to be a book about all 10 chapters are just a story of a failure, a mistake, an error, something I screwed up. That's where I learned the biggest lessons, those mistakes.

[Andy Stumpf]

How do you lay out that framework? The 10, how'd you decide on that 10? And I ask authors this because I'm actually fascinated by their process. Yeah, they are. You want to talk about an end state, a creative end state that really doesn't seem to have a single origin point. Coming back to one way, dude, every author has given me a different answer. Oh, I wrote Stream of Consciousness. Oh, I knew the overarching, so I laid it out on a piece of paper. I picked a chapter, and the rest of the chapters came from that I've written a book.

[David Burke]

To say I have a process is probably a stretch. To look back on it. I thought about. I thought about the. I broke it in down in my head. It's like, okay, if I'm going to write this, I just wanted to think about how best to do that. And the methodology from Extreme ownership is you tell a story, you talk about the lessons from that story, and you have an application to life. So we talked. Leif, Jocko and I talked about it, and I liked that methodology, so I stole that methodology from them. And we did it by design. It's the same as extreme ownership and dichotomy. So this is the third book he uses that same format. But as he started, as I started thinking about what I wanted to. What stories I wanted to tell, I first started writing just chronologically. Oh, this happened. This happened. And it was awful. It was not.

[Andy Stumpf]

It just sucked.

[David Burke]

It was not good. And so I. I kind of put up.

[Andy Stumpf]

Share the feedback Jocko gave you, dude.

[David Burke]

I mean, what was the first.

[Andy Stumpf]

Did you give him like a. You did a chat and you slid it to him?

[David Burke]

Totally.

[Andy Stumpf]

How long was it before you got feedback?

[David Burke]

Instantaneous. Because it was awful. It was. And he was right. Hell yeah. And. And I think the first part of that was like, you're not writing an abstraction anymore. Yeah, he was terrible. But we were. I knew he was trying to help me. It wasn't like he was being a jerk about it, but it was like, hey, dude, the story is. Is if you want to convey a. If I'm going to teach you something, I have to explain it in a story. You go, oh, that's a. That's an interesting, captivating, and then valuable way to do it. I can't just say A and then. And then B and then C, because that's me basically, like trying to force something on you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

Which doesn't work. So I took it. I had to take a big step back, like, all right, how do I do this? And what I came up with was the things that I have learned in my life that have led me to where I am today. All my successes, all my failures, the things that have led me to where I am today. I broke it down into the way how I think about things and what I do, thoughts and actions. And so I was like, all right, I want to talk about my mindset on certain things and I want to talk about my behaviors. Once I had it, like, okay, I think about things a certain way and I do things a certain way, like, oh, I can start to bucket those stories in. I learned this lesson about humility. To me, humility is a mindset that started to make sense. So I started to talk about the things to think about that were really valuable to me, and I put them in the mindsets category. And then things that you have to do, actions you got to take, things like listening, things like change, those type of things.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think you're describing the non fun parts. I prefer to be existential and think about how I think. This action stuff, it seems real difficult.

[David Burke]

It is indeed real.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, let's be honest, that's 100% where all of us fail.

[David Burke]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

I have this grandiose goal. I'm sorry, what's it gonna take for me to get there? Oh, no, no. That's a lot of work.

[David Burke]

That's a lot of work.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is there a more approachable goal that required no work whatsoever. Yes, let's aim at that.

[David Burke]

Well, that was, I guess, my method. But I can tell you, if you read this book, you are not gonna read a story about what an awesome dude Dave Burke is. You're going to start like, those are hard life lessons that I learned and thank God I learned them when I did because I apply them and I use them them and I benefit from them. But everyone is like this, God, do.

[Andy Stumpf]

I really have to tell the story?

[David Burke]

And the answer is like, yeah, you do. You got to tell the story. This story of how in my very first time in the Marine Corps in the basic school, I alienated half of my platoon because I. Anybody that didn't do as well as me, I treated him like, like, oh, that's a, that's, that's a 21 year old Dave Burke.

[Andy Stumpf]

I was about to say, that's a young man's dude.

[David Burke]

But I got the feedback from, you know, my platoon commander who I looked up and was like, hey man, your ego is going to be a problem for you. You better start to learn to get it in check now. And I wrote that story and it is embarrassing, it's humbling, but it's literally how I started to learn that. It isn't like some made up, it's how I actually learned that and what I realized. If I can get that on paper and explain it well, that might help another person going, I think he's kind of talking about me. And maybe it can help them get on that path. And that's really what Jocko is getting at, is if you can explain it in a way that the other person go, oh, this applies to me. You can help them. And that was the, that was the goal of the book.

[Andy Stumpf]

The first chapter of my book is about the first time I lost my trident. It's about six weeks after I got. It's not a big deal. It involves drinking in strip clubs at 10am it's fine. Classic Seal pre combat training. But I have the same theory. But I also have this question of the book is it's not all about failures. It's probably the lessons learned that I want people to be able to feel like they can survive, right? Because you're not going to thrive without being first able to keep your head above water. The book's called Drown Proof, which is straight from evolution in buds. But I also wonder that person that reads it right, your book, the first chapter, and they go, damn, this is. They're talking about me. Do they need to feel that pain though, a little bit too.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because I don't. And I see this with my own kids. And this could be one of the most difficult things with being a parent. How old are your kids?

[David Burke]

16, 14 and 12.

[Andy Stumpf]

I have 22 on Saturday, 20 and 17. Boy, boy, girl.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Vastly different expressions of DNA, let me just tell you. I find it so difficult because they think they are so devious and so smart and I can literally see them stacking the dominoes for a mistake. And I don't want them to feel any pain, but I have to let them 100. So I. And that's. And that's where this mystery. Like, I want this book to be impactful for people. I want your book to change people's lives, but I also want them to suffer a little bit. And I don't mean that in a mean way.

[David Burke]

I know what you're saying. You're right. Because you're absolutely right.

[Andy Stumpf]

There's this Icelandic, I'm completely messed this up cause I'm hearing this fourth hand from my wife, but it's like burnt baby doesn't touch the stove anymore. There's some truth to that.

[David Burke]

There is.

[Andy Stumpf]

So maybe I'm just. I would like to reduce people's amplitude perhaps of the pain.

[David Burke]

I like that.

[Andy Stumpf]

But I think they still have to feel it to a degree. And that's the hardest part about parenting. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna. Sometimes it's awesome though. I'm like, oh, so you're gonna do what? Oh yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

[David Burke]

Let me know how that works out.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'd go harder and faster if I were you. What do you think, Dad? I think then this is what I usually say to them. They haven't figured it out. I say, I think you should go with your gut on this one. And either way, you're either gonna have a great experience or you're gonna learn from it. They haven't figured out that every time I say that, I'm sitting back, I'm like, leah, get that popcorn ready.

[David Burke]

Come watch this. You're right. I mean, you're 100% right though. It's the same thing said earlier. You can't impose even that. You can't impose your experience on them. Yeah, they have to learn it for themselves. And as I wrote this, it was, if someone can see how this affected me, they might be a little more open minded to for themselves learning that same lesson. You're right. I can't go. Don't let your ego get out of control. Like, oh, wow, that's a great lesson. Obviously, that's true. It's accurate. But that's not how it works.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's conceptuality.

[David Burke]

But if they can go, oh, this guy had this career arc. This is what he did. And he's telling a story about how his own ego was a massive problem for him at 21, they might be more open minded to the idea that they also can start to think about how they can get control of their ego. And if they learn that from themselves through my story, then that's helping them. But to your point, like, I can't just walk up and go, here's all the things I learned. Don't do any of these things. It's just not how it works. You got to feel that pain yourself. You have to have those same experiences. I totally agree. And I have the same attitude with my kids. Like, try it. Let me know how it goes. I'm not. I don't want them to fail. I'm not looking for them to get hurt. There are guard rules in place.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I was gonna say for everybody listening, I'm not saying that with drinking and driving.

[David Burke]

Totally.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or like, hey, unprotected sex, and let me know how that works. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[David Burke]

Guardrails have to be in place.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm talking about, like, for example, my middle son. Like, this is a relatively irresponsible financial decision you're making, but it's not going to kill you. Yeah, but let's learn this one real early so that can set you up for success later on.

[David Burke]

Things you learn for yourself are so much more important and more. It's not even the right word. So much more impactful than the lessons that someone imposes on you. You got to learn it for yourself. I'm with you.

[Andy Stumpf]

You have to. And again, I can't wait to reach.

[David Burke]

After one of your books. Book.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, it's so stupid. God, I was such an idiot. You know, what it all comes down to is I was insecure in who I thought I was. I was. It was my first trip after getting my trident. We were in Tucson. We had actually just finished doing Cast with Davis Monson. The aircraft canceled the last day. Something came up. It was like 10 in the morning. We were already on the way out to the range. So they're like, okay, sweet. Let's go drinking. I'm 20.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

They carried me into the strip club on the shoulder. One of my buddies, they didn't even check our IDs. And I just. I. As the Day wore on. There were so many warning signs, but I didn't feel comfortable in myself. I hadn't had the realization that it didn't matter that I was the most junior dude. And I just. Cause to me, I'm like, I am serving with my heroes. If they ask me to crawl across Coles, I'll just say, are we doing a quarter mile here or a half mile? What do you want? They could do no wrong. But yet I'm sitting there watching. Was one particular person who was. Was kind of the. We'll call him the. The drain of the day that started everything circling. And I could have stopped it hours before it got out of control, before the cops got involved, before. It's like. It's so stupid. But I didn't, because if I looked in the mirror that morning, I would have said to myself, who do you think you are? You're the youngest, the most junior. These guys are older. They've been seals for longer. As if that means anything, by the way. And instead, I was a victim to the way that I saw myself in the mirror. That was the biggest lesson that I learned from that.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And it sucked. I didn't get to wear my trident for six months. He didn't take my nec. My skipper didn't, thankfully. But I still remember the sound of the scissors that he slid across the desk when I was standing there in my cammies. And he goes, why don't you cut that off? I'm like, but you just. This to be. Wow. And then, of course, I had just had my cami starched, so I cut it off. And for six months, I'm walking around. You can clearly see there used to be a patch there.

[David Burke]

Gosh dang. I look forward to that. That'll be good. That'll help somebody, man. That will.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, I hope so. But then I also heard. I also hope that it bites them a little bit, too. I. I don't want to reduce the amplitude to zero.

[David Burke]

No.

[Andy Stumpf]

But I would maybe if I could pull it from a 10 to a 6, I think the lesson could be learned. Yeah.

[David Burke]

And if they start to learn it a little bit earlier, that then the timeline of how they mature and who they're going to be will be a little bit faster. And. And they will win. The teams will win. Like, that'll be a good thing.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, otherwise, what is the point of all the experiences we got from our military career? Totally. I mean, I don't want to be this military guy for the rest of my life. Super impactful. The. The I, my moral compass was set by my parents. I won the lottery with my parents. Great, great upbringing, oriented my, my moral compass. But the community of people I served with from, you know, 18 all the way on until my mid-30s, I mean, they refined that for sure and sharpened it and all of those things. But if I can't do, I mean, like I just don't do that job anymore. But if I can't find a way to do something with those experiences, I feel like it won't get crazy. Like the thespian Jocko, which I think we can call him now because he's in a movie, it's not out yet, but didn't he play the jiu jitsu instructor?

[David Burke]

He does. He's a stretch role for him, really.

[Andy Stumpf]

Stretching it. I would have cast him as like a taxi driver or like a chef or just something I don't even know. But yeah, it's. I don't know, I just, I feel obligated to try.

[David Burke]

Yeah, I agree, man, totally.

[Andy Stumpf]

So your book falls essentially the trilogy. You're the last in the trilogy.

[David Burke]

Well, there'll be more. So it's really just the third in the series. I know that there's.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is there going to be more because Jocko says there's going to be more or you want to write more?

[David Burke]

I think, I think there's more to write. There really is. There really is.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't think you could, I don't think there's an end to it. I mean, I think you can keep writing and writing and writing. How is Echelon Front evolving now? Since when you first came on, what's the size, scope and scale?

[David Burke]

Now we're 50 people, 17 instructors. It is indescribable. From when I started with them, it was Leif and Jocko. Jamie was kind of a part time booking travel for them. We're now 50 people, 17 instructors. Jamie is the chief operating officer of the company. It is night and day and it's really the foundation of all of it is the book. Extreme ownership. Obviously Jocko is a massive influence, but it's, it's the ability for them to take that lesson and find a way for us to deliver that that's universal. Doesn't matter who you are, where you are or what you do. And that I think is the power of what Echelon Front does, which is they can reach an 18 year old construction worker, frontline individual contributor and a 65 year old CEO of a company that he founded. And the lessons are the same. Yeah, you gotta, they have to be.

[Andy Stumpf]

Delivered a little bit different vernacular matters but.

[David Burke]

But yeah. So what they have done with that company and to be along, I mean, I feel like I'm just a passenger on a fast moving train.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's.

[David Burke]

It's so cool to be part of that. It's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

Did it essentially. I mean, I'm assuming if Jocko and Leif started it, they probably got to a point where they were time maxed out and then just brought people on and what kind of task share? 100%. Yeah.

[David Burke]

I mean you can't scale time, right? Like you can only be in so.

[Andy Stumpf]

Many places, so many days on a calendar.

[David Burke]

That's right. And part of that was know when J.P. and I, J.P. danell and I showed up, it. We just, we showed up and like just hit the road. It was just event after event after event.

[Andy Stumpf]

He just tried to kill me at origin camp, by the way.

[David Burke]

He. He probably can. That guy's a beast.

[Andy Stumpf]

He was like, hey Andy, do you want to just keep moving so you stay warm? And I'm looking at him like, are you lying to my face right now? I'm like, I'm deeply. I'm like, do you want to keep.

[David Burke]

Moving so you stay warm?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And you said no, obviously.

[Andy Stumpf]

No, I, I was like, yeah, I do do. And I thought, I know what was coming. And yeah, he. We went into. We started in first gear, we were in fifth gear. We hit none of the others along the way.

[David Burke]

Just one to five, 30 seconds.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think we did two rounds straight and it was, it's like, all right, you son of a.

[David Burke]

He's a beast, man. The dude is such a stud. Yeah, we're just hitting the road and it has grown like crazy, man. It's been a crazy eight years.

[Andy Stumpf]

How do you think it will continue to scale? Just more of the same.

[David Burke]

Some of it is. There's. I forgot exactly what you said before. But like those lessons are like somewhat timeless and universal. So in some sense you gotta, you gotta, you kind of gotta keep doing it. And you probably saw this in the teams. I saw this in aviation. Like you don't ever stop doing the fundamental things. You don't get to a place like, I don't need to do that anymore. You maybe don't have to do it quite so rigorously as when you're learning how to fly an airplane. But you never get away from the foundation. Foundational things ever. And so there's a component of that that as time goes on, you have to keep re. Engaging. Almost like I use this Example, when we're talking to clients like the best hitters in baseball, you just take your best athletes and you take the guy who's the best hitter in baseball, you know what he does every day, he hits a ball off a tee, a thousand every day. So there's a foundational component to that that does not change. And at the same time, you have to evolve in a way. You know, there's technology, there's different things, but you also have to make it relevant where you don't want to just rely on the same story and the same experience from Ramadi's next year, it's going to be 20 years. And so what used to be kind of prime focal point, there's other things going on that you can pull the lessons from. What we've discovered too, like another example is when we talk about the concept of extreme ownership, when we talk about with your families, with your kids, with your spouses. And in the beginning, we weren't really talking about that much at all. And now sometimes the questions we get are like, hey, this stuff is awesome for my company, I've been using it. It's awesome when I walk in the front door, things all fall apart. And so now you've got this understanding of it's not just professional universal, it's life universal. And so we, we have to be responsive to that, to expand in ways like, how are you going to use this with your spouse, how are you going to use this with your kids, how are you going to use it in your community? Things that are super important for us as a nation. And so the time horizon like that goes on forever. And so we have to grow and be responsive to that. But it's, it's not just saying the same things over and over again. And at the same time, it's the same things. And so there's this interesting balance inside there. The foundations, the fundamentals do not change.

[Andy Stumpf]

The people who I would describe as the most tactically proficient, the, the dudes where it's like, hey, we have something relatively dangerous we're about to do and you can pick an all star team. All of that performance was based off their understanding and as close to mastery as possible of the fundamentals. It's not the flashy. And I'm sure aviation is the same way.

[David Burke]

It is.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's. I got into rotary wing aviation about a year and a half ago. It's been fascinating. I have a couple thousand hours of fixed wing time and, man, you want to talk about different, different speeds, obviously, different altitudes, different Spinning out of control. If you lose a tail rotor, that sucks. Thankfully, we only practice that. But I mean, go ahead and lose your grip on the fundamentals on a hot. On a hot and high landing day.

[David Burke]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Andy Stumpf]

You haven't practiced. You haven't gone out and just done laps in the pattern, which after you learn how to fly, nobody wants to go out and do laps in the pattern. But watch the pilot who has a thousand hours and once a month, he'll go. He'll be both. Bang, five.

[David Burke]

Bang out the pattern.

[Andy Stumpf]

Five. Five left hand turns. Smoother, smoother landings, better takeoff. Constantly reading up on his equipment. Constantly, you know, verbally. Even a single pilot speaking out loud. Working on a checklist or working off a flow and backing it up off a checklist. That performance difference in those people, they're unbelievable. Those are the ones who are. They're making contact. Every time we go back to the baseball analogy, they may not be crushing it out of the park, but their on base percentage is spectacular.

[David Burke]

Yeah. And that requires a degree of humility to go, okay, I'm at the top of my game. You know what I should go do? I should go. I hit the pattern. That takes humility to go. I am susceptible to complacency. I'm susceptible to getting stale and all those things. You described it. That's exactly right. And that's exactly. That's the mindset we all should have. We obviously don't always do that. Things certainly creep up in our heads, like, nah, that won't happen to me. Or, I don't need to do that. Yeah, exactly right. Especially in aviation and where you came from too, with the teams like the margin for error and the magnitude of how unforgiving it is. And I learned this in carrier aviation, the margin for error is very small. Getting a plane aboard a ship, the margin for error is small. And by the way, if you get outside of that margin for error, it's going to be catastrophic. And you know what you do when you get ready? You fly the pattern. Left hand turns over and over. And I don't care if you got 100 hours, 2,000 hours, 100 traps, or a thousand traps, that's what you do because of exactly what you just said. I agree completely with that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. It's the Jiu Jitsu is something that I got into a couple years ago. Not because of Jocko.

[David Burke]

No, of course not.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or Joe Rogan.

[David Burke]

No.

[Andy Stumpf]

Even though like 98 of the Jiu Jitsu world is because of them. Somehow this the best you know, Origin Camp is a great example. They have, you know, stripes on their black belts. At some point, you're like, I can't count how many those are. Are. Some of them have a flashier game. Those. The people with that many stripes are actually generally a lot older, though.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And so they have some wear and tear. You know, they call it the gentle art. And I think only people who don't do Jiu jitsu call it the gentle art because pretty sure arthritis is real and spinal cord injuries, and you put some miles on yourself. But the best practitioners, yes, they might have a fancy move, but guess what? It's all based off of absolute mastery of the fundamentals. And so when their game, their little flashy move, let's say it doesn't work on one particular opponent because there's somebody out there for you. Like, there's a flashy game, and they're like, oh, God. Then you hit the other flashy guy and nothing happens because they cancel each other out. Guess what? They go back to the fundamentals every time. Or you encounter something that's flashy and you don't know what to do. Go back to your fundamentals, your posture, keep your. Like it. It'll save you almost every time.

[David Burke]

It's a metaphor for life. Man, that is exactly right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Right. Meanwhile, people are on YouTube who don't understand the fundamentals. And I'm not a coach, by the way, and I'm not throwing shade at people, but I see this even at our gym, you'll see people who are struggling to progress. And you know that their mastery of the fundamentals for, well, and for everybody, it's a lifelong journey, but they have a little bit more in the quart of ice cream than others. And Instead they're on YouTube and watching some cartwheel, inverted, whatever Japanese term that I don't understand, trying to hit that and focus their energy. And that parallel is the exact same thing as somebody who, okay, you learn how to fly a helicopter. Good. You got your license, which, by the way, is a license to kill yourself. And now I'm just gonna go mess around over a forested environment that has no outs. And I'll take the guy who is like, let's just stay a little bit closer. Let's work on our. Make sure that we have things dialed. Stay in this environment. Environment. We'll branch out a little bit. We'll come back with a fuel buffer. You know, we're only going to fly during VMC conditions. We're not. It's like, that's the Guy I want to be around. And that's the aviator that I aspire to be. Like, don't get me wrong, I do some dumb stuff, of course, and that's.

[David Burke]

The fun part about flying. But you, you hit the nail on the head and, and what you described is every aspect that's flying. Hornets and bf, it's all the same stuff. It's the fundamentals. And in leadership the same thing applies. It is the same fundamentals. And if you get away from those, I don't care if you're brand new to it or you've been doing your whole life, if you get away from the fundamentals, you are going to struggle, period.

[Andy Stumpf]

So the guy who type rated me in the helicopter I have, he hit me with this the last time we were up here because, you know, as a, so it's a, it's a twin turbine, 40 knots and below. You're going to put it on the ground 40 and above. You're going to take it into the air because it's got great single engine performance, even up here. And he's always talking about, wait until you're out of the green arc of the speed gauge before you make a downwind turn. Just make sure you have enough energy. And we did a confined landing and you know, he was having me land doing near shore operations. He's like, let's come in at these angles. Make sure your tail is out over the water. Nobody's going to walk into your tail if it's out over the water. I'm like, sweet. So we take off, we pick up and he's like, all right, just go ahead and turn here. I'm like, but you said don't turn downwind until it's through the greed. And he looks at me, he goes, once you know the rules, you can deviate from them. But what kills people is they deviate from them without knowing the rules. It's just a different way of saying that the fundamentals are the most important thing. And then once you have a mastery of that, you can be creative. Yeah, but don't forget that those fundamentals are the baseline rule for everything.

[David Burke]

If you're going to deviate from the fundamentals, you better know the fundamentals.

[Andy Stumpf]

Once you know the rules, you can deviate from them. I think the curse of the novice is they want to deviate before having a true understanding of the rules.

[David Burke]

Indeed.

[Andy Stumpf]

I was like, son of a. Why can't I think of smart things like that?

[David Burke]

Write that down. That's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

He's, he's spectacular. And I mean, he has so many stories of aviators, specifically in the Rotary room world. I think he's typed in 17 different. Like a unicorn. Right. He's over fighting fires in the Chinook right now, I think in Turkey. Wow. So, yeah, he's kind of into it. But the stories he has of the things that he's seen and a lot of it are people getting away with stuff. Yeah. You know, and he can only say so much. He can't fly it for them. Not everything is required. It's wild. Not everything requires a license up here. Some of the air so they can get well over their skis and he can try. And then, you know, just the incident report after incident report after incident report. When people get to that place. It's. It's unfortunate, man.

[David Burke]

Amazing how similar it is to life in general.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think there's more Venn diagram overlap, especially when it comes to leadership and fundamentals. I don't know of an area of the world where life in general is humanity, where it actually doesn't touch or have a pretty immense overlap indeed. Yeah. Yeah. How long did it take you to write the book?

[David Burke]

Forever.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, that's not true. You actually got.

[David Burke]

It took years. No joke. Years.

[Andy Stumpf]

So, Jesus, how long. What did your contract say? Did they actually put years?

[David Burke]

I didn't reach out to them until I got to. When I say years. So, like, the first jockers, like, we talked about the story of writing the book.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

I don't know. At some point, I sent him a chapter and I put chapter in quotes. And he's like, this is terrible. And he didn't say it. Like, he's like, hey, dude, dude, listen, man, I know what you're struggling with. Here's some things to think about. Round two, another rendition. @ some point, you know, probably a year into that process of. He's like, okay, you understand it now. I'm like, yeah. And I did. And I did. I understood it then. It was, okay, I'm gonna write the. The proposal, which was the first three chapters, and really feel like if I understood what I was doing then that. That some back and forth. And then we got to a place where like. Like, this is good. That's when I went to Mark and like, okay, we like this. Let's move forward with this. The rest wasn't easy, but I knew what I was doing. But to get to a place where I knew what I was doing and was comfortable with it took way longer than I would have liked once I got there. And I had that sense of, like, I understand how the thoughts and the actions, the behaviors and mindsets, what the stories are going to be. Then I kind of got into a little bit of a groove. And it took maybe six months to get through the that, but it was way harder than I thought. I had no idea how bad of a writer I was and how long it was going to take to go, okay, now I know what I'm doing. But, like, with everything, once I got that, then I was actually comfortable. And, you know, it wasn't great. There's plenty of editing back and forth, but I understood what I was doing. That took way longer. And it was frustrating for me because I didn't like being bad at something. I didn't like writing this. And even I'd read them. Like, the hardest part about it was it was crystal clear in my head. And by the time it came out of my head onto this paper and I read it, I'm like, this is not even what I'm thinking. Like, these aren't even the words that represent what's in my head. And that frustration. And so it took some time. When I got it, it was okay, but, dude, it took a while.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. When does it come out?

[David Burke]

October 21st.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay. Okay. How long after. When did you submit your final draft? Because this is the phase I'm in now. Like, the draft is in. It's kind of locked. I've gone through four editorial passes. I now have looked at it so many times, I don't even remember what I actually wrote.

[David Burke]

It's a blur. My final manuscript was December of 23.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay.

[David Burke]

And it was. We originally thought it'd come out last year, but last year was not a good year to publish a book.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, it was if it was about politics.

[David Burke]

Hell, it's not. So we just pushed it, literally just 365 days. So the same timeline of what 24. So really is since 23. And if you just take all of 24 and just transpose that timeline to 25, it would have been, you know, December of last year to October of this year, from manuscript to publication.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's wild. So mine comes out April 14th. I feel like I've now been doing this my entire life forever, and. But the calendar still says six months. What is going on?

[David Burke]

It's crazy.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then they sent me the galley copies, which was wild. And they're like, yeah, you know, talk about it. And you, you know, if you want to try to do some pre sales, I'm like, pre sales for what? Something that comes out in Nine months. Who buys a book nine months before it comes out? Like, here's a better idea, guys. Maybe let's just step on the gas two weeks ahead of time. So have you seen hard copies?

[David Burke]

I do. I haven't. When did you get to see like. Like a week ago.

[Andy Stumpf]

Go. Oh, damn.

[David Burke]

So he's got it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay, well, that actually, I had the.

[David Burke]

Galley, you know, we did the gala copies, you know, and it's edits. Yeah, for sure. The hard copy is about a week old to me.

[Andy Stumpf]

Wow. So three weeks before coming out, essentially.

[David Burke]

And kind of a surreal experience. Like, doorbell rings. There's like boxes on my front porch.

[Andy Stumpf]

How many they send you?

[David Burke]

I think I got 30.

[Andy Stumpf]

How many galley copies did they send you? Because I feel like I got shorted.

[David Burke]

I probably got 20 galley copies.

[Andy Stumpf]

I get six.

[David Burke]

Well, you know, I feel like Jocko.

[Andy Stumpf]

Told him not to send me more.

[David Burke]

I'm sure he probably texted Mark. He's like, don't give him any Mark.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'll come find you in your office. Jocko won't, because he's too busy.

[David Burke]

He's too busy?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. No, it, it. Well, he actually said that there was some demand for them elsewhere, which I'm like, all right, fine.

[David Burke]

But dude, people are gonna kill to hear those stories.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, tell them. Just.

[David Burke]

They're gonna kill to hear those stories.

[Andy Stumpf]

They're not all good stories, but I'm.

[David Burke]

With you on that. Yeah, neither am I.

[Andy Stumpf]

So they sent me six. And I've passed it around some friends, but it's like, I have to get that back from you when you're done.

[David Burke]

Yeah, hey, when you're done, give it back to me because I gotta let.

[Andy Stumpf]

Somebody else read it. Cause I am trying to solicit feedback. Even though this thing's kind of cooked. I'm totally like. I changed the author photo out recently. Cause I had a buddy, a guy who was a podcast guest, like, like still using old school film. So he'll take these pictures on a non movable lens. So he has to move himself. Sends him off. He sent them back. I actually just sent them to Mark today. He goes, oh, these are way better than what we have. So send me the high res version.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I can make some small changes. But I'm just. I don't know what the hell the next six months looks like.

[David Burke]

Yeah, not a lot.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, what does the next three. Three weeks look like for you? So if it comes down. Well, actually it's. Hold on. This is the seven. So you actually have two weeks from today.

[David Burke]

Two weeks from today, it comes out okay. It's. It's available. Like, you can, you know, all the pre orders. Like, that's what we're doing.

[Andy Stumpf]

Mine's available now, too, but I tell people, I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't buy it right now if I were you guys. And I'm not so sure Mark wants me to say that, but that's what I tell people. Just please buy it.

[David Burke]

But also, your authenticity is probably appreciated.

[Andy Stumpf]

Maybe wait till later, because who buys a book nine months out?

[David Burke]

I'm sure as you get closer, and. And that's what we're doing. I was on Jocko's podcast last week, and we did two episodes, so we're talking about it more and more, and it's definitely in the, like, last couple weeks of it's real, it's happening, so it's kind of cool.

[Andy Stumpf]

What are they going to have you do when it comes out? Are you going to go to bookstores? Or what does St. Martin's have kind of lined up?

[David Burke]

Yeah, there's a bookstore down in San Diego called Warwick's, which is kind of like the. Yeah, totally. And so we're doing that. And then I think there's a little bit of, you know, the world from the time extreme ownership came out to now has changed. So podcasts are way more prevalent.

[Andy Stumpf]

Music. Yeah.

[David Burke]

And then, you know, even, like, satellite radio. There's different shows, there's a bunch of different mediums. So a lot of that is being done, I don't know, more like in the remotely remote area, like, that kind of space. So I got a bunch of podcasts lined up, and, you know, I'm doing some aviation podcasts. Like, there's just different areas to try to get the word out. And I'm just hoping people see value in the book. You write this book, and I'm sure, you know, the same boat that I am is like, man, I hope this thing is helpful. You know, like, I'm at the point.

[Andy Stumpf]

Now where I look at. I'm like, I think this thing sucks. I have edited it so many times, I actually had to just say, yep, I think I might be changing it back to what it originally was, because I'm so.

[David Burke]

Change it so many times.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. And so I am going to hand it off to you.

[David Burke]

Well, Mark and those guys do a good job. If they say it's ready, it's ready. And it took me some time, too. And, you know, I. Like I said, I was shocked that it's so clear in my head, and I'd write it down. I'm like, that is not what's in my head.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's tough. I can think faster than I type, though, is one of the issues.

[David Burke]

Yeah, amen. And all those things got in the way. I did get to a place. I'm like, okay, this sounds kind of how I'm thinking. And at some point you go like, this is it. And you do have to. Or you're just gonna over edit it like you said. All of a sudden, like, I think this is said what it said the first time.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think it will come full circle if you let it go. That for. Did you do the audiobook?

[David Burke]

I did.

[Andy Stumpf]

What was that experience like? Because I'm doing that in January.

[David Burke]

It was tedious.

[Andy Stumpf]

Where do you go? Sound studio.

[David Burke]

You went to. I went to a sound studio. I mean.

[Andy Stumpf]

And you just read.

[David Burke]

You just read. It was awesome. I loved it. There's a, like a, a director, there's a studio person. But it's like you kind of sitting like this, you got a microphone, you got an iPad, and you were reading your book and oh boy, was four days in a row. What? That's wrong. It was two days and then two more days and I had a couple days in between. And it's six hour days and you are reading your book.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm gonna call my union rep. Mark, if you listen to this, I don't have a union rep and I don't think there's a writer's union, but I will start one because I will mutiny over this.

[David Burke]

The thing that I learned, though it was not easy, I really enjoyed it. I do not know how someone else, nobody could have else read that book. You're reading your book and it sounds in your ear different than how you typed it. And so there's a couple times I'm like, oh, that's terrible. Well, it's too late because that's in the book.

[Andy Stumpf]

But they're like, hey, buddy, you're gonna read the words in front of you.

[David Burke]

But you have got to read your own book. I mean, there's. I learned that lesson too. Like, and Jocko said, I was like, you will do the audiobook. And it's 100% the right.

[Andy Stumpf]

They already agreed to let me do it.

[David Burke]

It's worth the time. It's a little tedious because you make little mistakes. And the guy's like, hey, say it again. You're like, why? He's like, you said the word wrong. You don't even realize it. But I think the power of you, you know where to inflect. You know, how to. You understand what you're trying to say. So you. You're able to say it in a way as tedious it was. I really had fun doing it. It was a lot of work. It took some time, but it was really fun. And you're saying it the way that you're feeling it, which I think would be impossible for someone else. So I think it's awesome you're doing it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Because you know where the motivation is or where you would want to add tone and inflection. Yeah.

[David Burke]

100%.

[Andy Stumpf]

Perhaps my case, a touch of sarcasm. It's hard to say.

[David Burke]

I don't see that from you.

[Andy Stumpf]

But maybe ask Jocko about that.

[David Burke]

I'd be like, that son of a bitch.

[Andy Stumpf]

I appreciate it when he wrote the foreword that he made up nice things. Things that made me sound good.

[David Burke]

He wrote my forward. And he likes to say, get Dave's book. You know, you'll like the forward. It's the best part. So we got that going for us. We got good forge in our book.

[Andy Stumpf]

Trust me, he'll probably say the same BS with me, too. God. I'll go. He. I'm gonna go back on his show before it comes out, too.

[David Burke]

And God, totally, definitely, definitely need to.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't need him bookmarking because I see what he does with books. I'm like, jocko, can we just talk about how I'm an idiot? We don't need to go literal. Chapter.

[David Burke]

He will 100% bookmark. I know he will. All your idiocy.

[Andy Stumpf]

I am.

[David Burke]

For the whole world to hear.

[Andy Stumpf]

He should just bring a highlighter. Then it's like, you think you'll ever get back into aviation? Being out?

[David Burke]

I don't think so.

[Andy Stumpf]

No desire at all.

[David Burke]

I know that sounds terrible.

[Andy Stumpf]

Get a Cessna, fly around at 70 knots. Experience the world.

[David Burke]

How do I. Yeah. How do I say this without sounding like a total pompous jerk? But a couple years ago, I got a flight in a Cirrus jet, which is like the cool that jet is. It's so. It is awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

Awesome.

[David Burke]

It's glass cockpit.

[Andy Stumpf]

For a civilian to be able to get their hands on that for about two and a half million dollars. That's amazing.

[David Burke]

It's unreal. I got into that thing. Like I said, I preface this with. I don't know how to say that. Sounding like a jerk.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And I'm like, I cannot believe how slow we were going.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

I mean, I just. My frame of reference, it was like climbing at altitude. I'M like, I can't. It was so slow.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. And thousand feet. Like, what are we taxing right now?

[David Burke]

It was crazy. So I didn't. I didn't transition to civilian flying. Well, yeah. And that's not even a criticism. It's just not. And the other part too is I know the same thing, you know, is if I'm gonna fly, dedication, effort, competency. And yeah, I have. I just. I do not have the bandwidth or the interest for that anymore. And so there's no way I could do it correctly. So I'm not gonna do it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I'm at a phase of my life where I can prioritize time with it, but I also never want so much so with a helicopter. I have no desire to become a flight instructor. I'm not going to teach anybody. I just want to explore where I live and currency and Com. I don't let it go more than a couple days without going out and flying.

[David Burke]

And that's. And that's what you need. You can't do this once or twice.

[Andy Stumpf]

When I talk in multiple hours for like 30 minutes, I'll bang traffic patterns. Or literally, because I landed on a mobile platform, I'll just lift up and put it back down.

[David Burke]

Just get some reps. It's perfect. I think that attitude is exactly right. I don't have that right now, so I won't do it at all. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

What else do you want to accomplish in life, dude? This is a question I struggle with.

[David Burke]

That's a great question. You know, you. You talked about, like, finding the balance of letting the people around you. Obviously, kids are the most obvious one, but in all aspects, finding the balance of what you can pass on. I think as we get older, you have this sense of like, I want to pass this on.

[Andy Stumpf]

You start thinking about legacy.

[David Burke]

Yeah, a little bit. And it's tempered with the other point you made, which is really good, is they gotta feel that hot stove. Right. They gotta feel that hot stove. If I accomplish anything, if I can contribute to the people around me that I care about. And it's remarkable how you said it, because I think the words are coming to my mind is accelerate the timeline just a little bit. A little bit. And lower the magnitude just a little bit so they can be successful in their lives, that would be a win for me.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

And I'm always kind of meandering around that, trying to figure that out, and it's not. And I think you're thinking the same. It's not legacy. So, like, oh, look at him.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's not that at all.

[David Burke]

It's what. What is. What is the way to get someone else that you care about to find success that they define for themselves with the benefit of that. And if I don't. I do not care what my kids end up doing, as long as it's important, constructive, valuable, like the things that you want. Let them find their. If they can do that in a way that's successful in their life.

[Andy Stumpf]

Life.

[David Burke]

That's the legacy I'm looking for. And I think for me it's. How do I balance the lessons that I've learned with their willing, their ability to learn for themselves.

[Andy Stumpf]

Do you like traveling with your kids? You guys do hobbies together?

[David Burke]

We. We travel, which I think is really.

[Andy Stumpf]

Important for young men and women. I.

[David Burke]

That is one of our favorite things to do.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[David Burke]

You know, not to get all cheesy, but like every year we go to a different national park.

[Andy Stumpf]

Work. Yep.

[David Burke]

You know.

[Andy Stumpf]

Have you guys ever been to Glacier?

[David Burke]

No, we haven't.

[Andy Stumpf]

Trash. But I can't believe. Actually, you shouldn't come now. You're not even invited. I'm gonna put you on the no fly list up there.

[David Burke]

That's awesome. Well, thanks for the invite.

[Andy Stumpf]

I actually think it's better than Yellowstone. It's just. It's not as well known. Yeah, it's. It is a.

[David Burke]

Because you're banning people from it apparently.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is why only the Burke family. But it is, it is stunning. It is really cool. Cool.

[David Burke]

And to that end, like, look, this technology, you know what, you know, the world that's out there, that is an offset to that. And every year, the kids, they love it. They're like, I'm so glad we did that. My kids all do jiu jitsu. So, you know, we're. I'm trying to expose them to the things I know will be good for them. And I will say this the best part about like my post military life. I had kids a little bit later. So, you know, pros and cons. Yeah, definitely. But I. I see my kids all the time, which is awesome. I am with my kids all the time. Well, I should be careful. I'm with my kids as much as they want me to be around. And you know, the oldest one as, you know, like, she's like, you know, here and there. My son is the youngest. I got girl, girl, boy. My son just like, he wants to be hanging around with me all the time, but I'm around with them and so I take them to class, I take them to all their sports Football, soccer, all of it. So I am fully invested in the idea of like, like being around them for as long as I can, knowing that that's a fleeting window. So I'm lucky to be at this place in my life with kids at that age where I can do that.

[Andy Stumpf]

What are you doing to enrich your life outside of giving back with your experiences? Do you have hobbies that you like? You have any goals that you're pursuing?

[David Burke]

Man, those are really good questions. I know this sounds kind of. I don't know if self serving is quite the right word. Writing the book and thinking about what I would write about next has been really family centric. So, like the next thing I'm thinking about with Jamie and I are talking about the concept of writing about how we take these things and apply them in our families. So we're in this, literally in this. And I don't think it's a hobby. I don't think I'd quite call it that. I think there's a little bit of like, a little bit of like a professionalization of that. Like, it's a little bit of like some work, but the skill of taking a lesson or taking something that is resonant in your head and capturing in a way that, that can relate to other people in their home life. Where I struggle the most, that's where my ego gets challenged the most. That's where my emotions get challenged the most. That's where I'm most invested in the outcome. So in the last couple years, there's been a lot of thinking about that. And I know, I mean, it's maybe it sounds a little cheap. Like that has strengthened my relationship with my wife. And so there's a lot of focus on thinking about that. And it's an interesting blend of like the work that I do professionally, my job at Echelon from front with. And again, it's. I wouldn't call it a hobby, but it is definitely like personal and where the, the most value of the time invested is with the people I care about the most. There's a really interesting intersection there of how these things that we teach sit in. Even like my daughter and her cell phone, I think about like, how did I do that? Or what, you know, she wrote the contract for how we're going to do it. Like all the lessons in a very intimate, personal family life. And it's been a really cool blend of taking those two things together, writing about that, which I've been doing a lot of lately because like I said, I wrote this Book two years ago. This book has been done. That writing has been really interesting. A little bit therapeutic, but also a lot of fun because it's about my kids, it's about my wife. It's really cool.

[Andy Stumpf]

There'd be a good parody book around extreme ownership with families, too.

[David Burke]

The parodies by themselves are so good.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. The chapter one would be. But my wife was mean to me.

[David Burke]

Yeah. I didn't hear what she said.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. That's her job. Yeah.

[David Burke]

So there's so much there. It's gold.

[Andy Stumpf]

I actually think that book would crush.

[David Burke]

Dude. The ownership parody book.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yes.

[David Burke]

Winners.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I feel like I could force Jocko to do a promo for it. Like a hostage video, like one of his Monday mornings. But he would be reading it, like, stuttering and hostage. And I have to be. Say it again. I think. I don't know if I could pitch it to him as a comedy. I think it would be okay.

[David Burke]

Let me know how that goes.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think it'll be all right. Are you aware that Eschel on front for a short period of time, was considered to be the bodyguards for Charlie Kirk?

[David Burke]

I heard some.

[Andy Stumpf]

I saw people posting about it on one of the platforms. This is Jocko and La Echelon front. I'm sitting there. I almost texted Jocko and said, hey, man, did you guys get into the security business and not tell me about that? Because I don't know where they made that leap. And then I saw Leif actually addressed it. He goes like, this is not factually correct.

[David Burke]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know how that happened.

[David Burke]

I have no idea. Fortunately, it came and went very quickly. But there was a post. I can't remember where it was, but it was that we were a security company.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Or had a security portion of.

[David Burke]

I literally. I literally cannot explain at all how something that happens. We are not a security company.

[Andy Stumpf]

But that.

[David Burke]

That got out. That was a thing for a couple days.

[Andy Stumpf]

The Internet's a wild place.

[David Burke]

It is a wild place.

[Andy Stumpf]

You're like, it could be more dangerous than Ramadi.

[David Burke]

It's a crazy place.

[Andy Stumpf]

Maybe not to physical, you know, life and limb, but it is the wild.

[David Burke]

West out there, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

The stats are back. When it comes to the malleable nature of. Of young men and women and depression and suicidal ideation and mis.

[David Burke]

And sure. Misinformation and things like that. And what. What is, like, assumed to be true. And you're looking like, wow, so that one was crazy.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know, who's getting caught with the misinformation more than our kids, though, is our Parents, I don't have enough storage space on this SIM card to talk about the unwinding I have had to do.

[David Burke]

Oh, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I feel like I remember pre and post Internet. You're at the age for sure. There's not that many generations beyond ours that will remember.

[David Burke]

Right?

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't want to be mean to my dad's generation, but I feel like at 80 you don't get electronics anymore.

[David Burke]

Yeah, we're going to take those away.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, man. I have had to make him promise. I'm like, you will never put your credit card information into your phone again.

[David Burke]

How else is he gonna get a free iPad? Okay, he's gotta do that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or a fifteen hundred dollar toll from California where he wasn't. Nor is a toll violation ever $1500. I have had to make him promise, I will come wherever you are. I will help you. But you are not allowed to put your credit card information into your phone without me or Leah present ever. And he was like, okay. And I think he has been doing it.

[David Burke]

Yeah, it's tough, man. It's tough to navigate at that age.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think, think, where can people find your book? We'll get you out of here. You're going to make your flight today.

[David Burke]

Dude, you're awesome, man. This has been awesome. I mean, just like, I mean, you can go to Amazon. You could also go to Echelon Front.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is there. Does one benefit you more than the other? Because this is what gets weird too. There's sales that count.

[David Burke]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

I know nothing about that world other than it's shifty.

[David Burke]

The short answer is yes. The long answer is too long. I don't care where. If you bought this book, I'm grateful. Yeah, go to Amazon or go to Barnes and Noble, which would be super cool. Yep. And it's like my name, just type in my name. The book is called the need to Lead. A little Top Gun nod. But if you just put my name and you bought an Amazon, I'll be super stoked.

[Andy Stumpf]

Should have called it the need for Speed and just gotten sued by who got sued?

[David Burke]

Yeah, by Paramount. I want to pay a fine.

[Andy Stumpf]

Sue. I wonder if they would sue. I feel like they would be an.

[David Burke]

Odd name for a leadership book, but I got as close to it as I could.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, I liked it. I appreciated it. And then Echelon Front stuff, That's just Echelon Front.com.

[David Burke]

Echelonfront.Com you can get everything from like bringing us out to your company to like buying T shirts. So go to echelonfront.com anytime you want to reach out, and that's to any. You want to connect with anybody at our company, just go to our website. It's all on there. And then, like, the other stuff is just Amazon or Barnes and Noble.

[Andy Stumpf]

Do you do the socials?

[David Burke]

I do the socials. I'm not the most active social user.

[Andy Stumpf]

That said, your life is better because of that.

[David Burke]

Yeah, it is. I'm Most Active on LinkedIn and Instagram. The rest I won't lie. Like, I'm just not super engaged and I feel bad, but not really. But the other part of the thing, like on Instagram, like, my following is, like, it's not so big that I would. I can. I will answer anybody's dm. So if you. You find me on Instagram, David R. Burke, and you message me, I will. I will answer you on Instagram. And if you make a comment or a post on LinkedIn, I'll get to you outside of LinkedIn Instagram. You probably won't hear back because I just don't stay in touch.

[Andy Stumpf]

You don't get so much time in the day, man. So the beauty and the. The downside of the Internet as well, you can be. You can build or be part of a community so far outside of what I think humans were actually designed to do.

[David Burke]

Totally.

[Andy Stumpf]

You could spend your entire life. And then there's the dead Internet theory, where, you know, 80 plus percent of the Internet is just bot controlled. You want to stare at the ceiling fan. God.

[David Burke]

Totally. The algorithm is dangerous. I try to stay away from it as often as I can.

[Andy Stumpf]

Your life will be better for it.

[David Burke]

Indeed.

[Andy Stumpf]

For sure. Awesome, man. Well, let's get you out of here. Thank you for making the trip up, dude.

[David Burke]

This is the coolest thing ever, man. Thank you.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, I know it's coolest thing ever. Used to fly F22s, but whatever.

[David Burke]

Right on. Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call, talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's all the rules.

[David Burke]

I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings, Crazy funny ones.

[Andy Stumpf]

I talked to a guy with a goose laugh.

[David Burke]

Somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous.