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Episode 414 - Chad Wittman - What do you do when life falls apart?
02:40:36
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Transcript1,037 lines
- [00:01]
A
Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north and south. West of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy.
- [00:10]
B
West of the smoke. I'm looking at danger close now.
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A
Oh, wait a minute. Give it to me.
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B
I mean, it cleared hot.
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A
Coffee cleared hot. Wow. You just knew that you didn't even have to hear my voice. You just sensed it. Huh?
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B
One of us does this for a living.
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A
Clearly, it's.
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B
Yeah. Where should we begin?
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A
Well, do you remember where we met?
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B
Here's the funny thing. I don't know where to enter into this conversation because the volume of stories we have.
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A
I know.
- [00:42]
B
And then we had this massive gap of zero stories, but I don't remember the exact day, but I remember exactly where I met you. Because it was in August of 2010.
- [00:51]
A
Yeah. At the games. At the games or after? Because at the.
- [00:55]
B
I met you at the negotiating table.
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A
Oh, yeah.
- [00:57]
B
So it was after the games because I was going to ask.
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A
Yeah. No. So it's October. Would have been October. Nope.
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B
No, we were meeting in a hotel. And I know this because my mother died while I was sitting in a conference room with you guys.
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A
Oh, I remember that.
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B
August 26th.
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A
Yeah. Thank you.
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B
Your dates are better, so. And for those listening, I'm not trying to say this is Chad's fault that that happened. I'm just saying I kind of remember right now.
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A
I'm, like, so trustworthy on my dates. Yeah, yeah.
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B
No, it's tough to forget that one. But that was in the sequence of the conversations leading up to the contract signing between Reebok and CrossFit, which is the context of what. Where you and I met.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I don't know if I ever asked you guys this because. That's right, you had gone to the games before because they're in July. Right.
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A
Dude, this is a great story. Okay, I really should tell you this.
- [01:51]
B
Well, I want to hear it because I never asked you guys, where did the interest. Like, where did the idea come from? Because when I met you, I feel like you guys had gone as just spectators to a games and then were like, this is the way. And then I met you shortly a month after that, basically when the negotiation was going down.
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A
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
- [02:11]
B
Yes. So do tell.
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A
So we were. We were struggling because we were stepping all over Adidas toes in soccer and football. You know, they originally bought Reebok because we. They were going to take over America. And to do that, you had Reebok. And at the time, Reebok was a huge sports brand in the States. However, the truth Is the. The numbers weren't real.
- [02:40]
B
That's what I'm talking about.
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A
Yeah. So they bought. They bought Reebok, and the stories are endless. I'm sure somebody else will tell those stories about pushing some numbers to drive up the price.
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B
Was there ever any punitive measures taken, or is this just something that disappears in the corporate world? Oh, my goodness.
- [02:57]
A
They couldn't do it because they would look foolish. So they. They bought Reebok, and it wasn't what they thought it was, but they were determined. They're like, we bought this thing, and we got to make this work. And so at the. At the beginning, we were a sports company. Reebok was. We had all the leagues, like MLB. They bought Reebok, I think, in 2006.
- [03:17]
B
Okay.
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A
I joined January 2007.
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B
Okay.
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A
So, so fast forward then to, like, to 2010. At that time, Reebok is struggling, and Adidas is like, we need. We need to be in sports in America. We are. So they started investing big in football. They started signing college football teams, and we were in each other's grill all the time. And so.
- [03:41]
B
But they fall under the same P and L. Ish.
- [03:44]
A
Correct. But it was UG because, like, we're the. The industry knew they were the same company.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And we're just like, we're fighting with each other.
- [03:52]
B
Almost nobody on this street did to include all of us when we actually sat down with you guys.
- [03:56]
A
Correct, Correct. But internally, it was a mess. Okay. It was a lot. There's a lot of stuff going on. And so they basically said to the current CEO at the time, Uli Becker, they're like, you guys got to find a new strategy. Like, there's got. You've got to find a way to diversify so we're not stepping all. All over each other's toes. And, you know, they're big brother by a long shot. So they're like, we're going to be the sports brand.
- [04:19]
B
They wanted bat and ball, essentially.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. And we had this history in fitness from the 80s, and Reebok ended up becoming the number one brand at one point. We passed Nike in the 90s and the pump, there's this whole. But it started with fitness. And so the idea. We hired bcg, and the idea was like, let's get back to our roots in fitness. And at the time, fitness was starting to boom. CrossFit was this underground thing. And I got asked to be part of this.
- [04:48]
B
It's 2007. It was still on the upswing. I found it in 2005. Good morning, everybody. Today's episode is brought to you by Montana knife Company. If you've listened to the show, you know who Josh Smith is. He's the founder of Montana Knife Company, the youngest master bladesmith in the history of bladesmiths. He born and bred, raised in Montana. Montana knife Company is just down the road in Frenchtown. They're getting ready to open their brand new facility in Missoula. And right now they have something really cool going on. So I'm gonna head over to the website. Ch this out. The ultimate hunting rig truck. For those of you who are watching this, the truck that you see, I'm going to assume it comes without the elk rack on top, but everything else is going to come with this. What do you need to do to win this truck of a lifetime? Well, it looks like it's 100 grand in total prizes. One person is going to get to drive it home. They need your email address and your phone number. That's it. Do you have to buy anything? Absolutely not. So, yeah, if you want to get the ultimate hunting truck, which is sponsored by mkc, I suggest you go check this out. Let's see what else they have on their website. The normal knives. As I've said many times, at this point we're talking holiday shopping, right? These are knives. Think of these as something that could fit in a stocking stuffer. Wrap them up as a gift underneath the tree, whatever it is. Ooh, we got some cleavers getting ready to come out on the 6th, which will be three days after this episode releases. Apparel. Look at this stuff. Beanies. Also known as toques in Canada. I don't even know what this thing is called. A trapper hat. Probably the same thing. But yeah. Not only did make great knives, but Brandon over there is just slaying it when it comes to their retail offerings as well. Montana knife company.com. go sign yourself up for the truck. Go sign up everybody you know without telling them for the truck. I don't know if that's legal, so maybe don't do that. But definitely sign yourself up. Montana knife company.com. if you do end up getting something there in the checkout portal, they'll ask how you heard about them. Do me a favor and just say clearhot or Andy Stone for both. All right, cool. Back to the show.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
And I remember.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
It was like, I remember the seminars. Hey, guys, see you next quarter.
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A
Oh, my gosh.
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B
And then it was next. See you next month. See you next weekend. Yeah, there's no more days on the calendar.
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A
Yeah, I remember this.
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B
That's when I found it, though.
- [07:01]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So that. That's right. So that was early. You were way earlier. Because we weren't looking at CrossFit in 2007. It wasn't until 2010, when. 2010 is when we decide, like, there was enough from 06 to 10. Yeah, there was like, okay, Reebok's got to find a new path. And so I got asked to be part of a task force team to go explore the fitness space. I was doing lacrosse and, like, cleated footwear, like, managing the NFL players and all that stuff. And I got asked to be part of this, like, side task force team. And we were looking at BOSU ball trx.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
And we were doing.
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B
By a seal. No big deal.
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A
Yeah. And we were.
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B
Other than that.
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A
Yeah. Well, it is actually pretty cool. But, like, all of these were basically products, and we were looking to acquire one of them. So we had. We were doing all this due diligence. It was really interesting for me. I'd never done anything like it. But there was this. There was this murmur constantly of this CrossFit thing, this underground CrossFit thing, and Matt O' Toole was talking about it a lot, and he started doing it at CrossFit New England, and he started saying that basically the. The word on our street was, if we could ever get in bed with CrossFit, like, we will do it. Like, we. But it's impossible because these guys don't talk to anybody. He's not interested in any brands. He spoke with under. He did a little deal with Under Armour for the games. Adidas had been trying to talk to him, but it was like, no go. And I was traveling a ton at the time because I was doing licensed footwear and I was at the MLB All Star Game, and I hadn't been home in, like, I don't know, a long time. Marriage was not great because of that. And I'm not, like, really bad. But Gail was like, what the heck's going on? We were.
- [08:48]
B
Relationships work better when you're, like, kind of with each other.
- [08:51]
A
Yeah. When you're there.
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B
I've also experienced this.
- [08:53]
A
Yeah. Okay. So, you know. Yeah. So it wasn't great. And I got a phone call from Chris Royal, who's like, hey, dude, we can't get to the games. There's this thing called CrossFit. And I'm like, I know about it. And he said, the games are happening this weekend. Matt can't go. I Can't go. I can't forget all the people who. They really wanted to go. Couldn't go. Yeah. And so I got a call, and I said, dude, I cannot go without my family. Like, I've been on the road. And he's like, done. We'll fly your family. Just get home immediately. We'll debrief you. I mean, it was like a mission. That's how it felt for me.
- [09:25]
B
Well, you already described it as a task force, so I'm already. Again, this is a good story already.
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A
Yeah. So I fly back, and I'm, like, sitting in there with Matt o', Toole, Katya, who's our head of strategy, Chris Fro. And they're like, okay, this is before.
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B
Or after you went to the game?
- [09:38]
A
This is before. Okay, This. I just flew home for one night.
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B
You're getting your briefing?
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A
Yeah. Got my wife, got the kids. I'm leaving the next day. And then, literally, I sit down. They're like, okay, here's the deal. There's this guy, Greg Glassman. I didn't even know who he was. Guy, Greg Glassman. He's a CEO. He doesn't like big brands. And you gotta go to the games and try to meet him. Your only goal is to meet Greg Glassman. If you can meet him, try to convince him to come out here and meet with us. And I was like, okay, so priceless. I'm on the flight over, and I'm trying to prepare. I keep calling him Gray Glassman. Gray, as in the color, because there's some Gray. Gray Glassman or Gray. There's another guy in the fitness industry at the time. His first name's Gray. And Gail keeps going, chad, It's Greg. If you meet. And she's reminding me. I'm like, oh, okay, Greg Glassman. But I even know his name. And so I show up in my zigs.
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B
Yes.
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A
In an orange Reebok shirt. And I pull up the first day of the Games, and I had her and the kids stay behind.
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B
And Are we talking. You just went and bought a retail ticket?
- [10:40]
A
Yep. But there was. There was this loose connection with this guy. Jimmy. Jimmy Letchworth. And Froyo had some. Somebody had wiggled their way into him. And so we had a contact. I had a phone number, and that was my way to maybe find Greg. And I left Gail and the kids at the hotel, and I'm like, let me just go scope this thing out. It's three days, and I show up, and I don't. I'll never forget this I saw Lauren Plume. Do you remember her? In the parking lot. I didn't know who she was at the time, but I pulled up and there's this girl with like eight pack abs. And I was like, what is happening? And everywhere I look, I walk in, everybody looks like the guys and girls on the floor competing in the stands. Yeah. And they are so into it. And in that moment, I knew, I said to myself, holy, if we get. If we can get in with this community, like, game changer. Reebok that quick. Game changer immediately.
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B
You could just get that, like, just off the vibe and the parking.
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A
Oh, my God. I've never seen anything like it. Yeah. And you walked into that stadium.
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B
It had to be Lulu heavy at that time.
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A
Yeah, Lulu very heavy.
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B
For the lady side, at least.
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A
Innovate shoes.
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B
Yes, Innovate shoes. What were the guys wearing?
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A
Innovate shoes. And they were wearing Lulu and like a mix of brands. I don't think Lulu had a market.
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B
On women's apparel and CrossFit for a long time.
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A
Yeah, not in the men. The men were mainly wearing, like, they.
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B
Were wearing board shorts and T shirts.
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A
Shorts and like graphic tees.
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B
Okay.
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A
Yeah. So I remember just being blown away and I spent the day there and I. And I went back home and I told Gail. I was like, oh, my God, if we can make this happen, Reebok, game changer. So I go back the second day, and by the way, I'm texting with Jimmy all day long. He keeps saying, meet me. Meet me over here at this time. I'll introduce you to Greg. I come to that and I'm there. No Jimmy, text him. He's like, oh, sorry, man, can't get him. And like, kind of chasing him all day. And in the end of the day, he's. He just texted me, said sorry, like, just too elusive. Come back tomorrow. Try tomorrow. Come back the second day, same thing, most of the day. But this time I brought Gail and the kids. And this is the best part, because the whole time, all Matt and Froyo are doing, they keep texting me, have you met Greg? Have you met Greg? I was going to ask and I'm like, no.
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B
I would imagine they were demanding 15 minute updates.
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A
Oh, yeah. I mean, everyone's curious because at this point, we had exhausted all of our other resources and this was like, like our chance to get the thing we really wanted. So Jimmy ends up, I can't remember what time of day, but he finally says, meet me here, and at least now I can meet him. And So I met him at this location, and I remember telling Gail to hide behind a pillar with the kids because it is unprofessional in my mind if I have my family at this event.
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B
What's wrong with you?
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A
I don't know. But this. But they saved. They saved me because Jimmy comes up with a kid strapped to his back. He's got one kid in each hand. And immediately I looked at Gail, get.
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B
Over here right now.
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A
And she came out. And to this day. Well, to this day, I haven't talked to Jimmy in a while. He saw me with my family there. What he didn't know was I was saving my marriage, and I had them hiding behind a pillar. And he said, the only reason I gave you an introduction to Greg is because you brought your family there, and it showed me that you understood our community.
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B
But you didn't.
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A
I did not. I did not. Yeah. So he said, tomorrow, meet me at some place I can't remember where, and I'll introduce you to Greg. And that was the last day of the Games. And I remember meeting Greg, and he introduced me as the Reebok guy. And Greg kind of, you know, brushed me off a little bit, but he was like, walk with me, kid. And so we were walking, and here I am walking with this guy, and he's signing people's boobs, he's signing their T shirts, he's signing arms. I mean, just. He's like this demigod. I'm like, what? What is happening right now? It was crazy. I was blown away. And we end up walking around, and we sit down, and he just says, so tell me what's going on? And I basically just told him everything I'd witnessed there. I said, this is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like this. And I was telling him, like, Reebok. Reebok is serious. Like, we are going to become the fitness brand. We want to get back to our roots, and we are dead serious about a partnership. And for whatever reason, however I said it, it seemed to be the right way. And he. He just. He stopped me at one point, and he just said, I like you. I'm gonna give you a shot. Jimmy, book us tickets out to see to Boston to see Reebok. And this was like, the success moment. And I.
- [15:13]
B
You're about to ride back to Reebok on a golden chariot.
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A
So I get. But this is. This gets even better. So I'm on the flight, on the way home, and I'm so fired up. I've got pictures, I've got Ideas. I built like a 150 page deck on that flight. Oh, that's from California to Boston.
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B
There should never be a deck.
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A
That's happening. Hold on. I had Reebok CrossFit gyms sponsor the. I had all of the stuff we ended up doing. It was all in the deck. Because I was just like in flow state. I was so excited. And I get back and I'm telling Matt and Katya and Uli, I, I want to meet with you guys. I need to give you a debrief. And he's. And he goes, okay, we're in Germany, So we've got 30 minutes before we go out to dinner. And it was like a Saturday night because they were there for meetings at the headquarters for Adidas. And I was so nervous because I'm like thinking, how am I going to tell them in 30 minutes what I just witnessed? And if they don't understand, we will never get the deal. And so I'm at home, I'm all nervous. I pull up my computer because I was going to present to them. I thankfully had sent my deck along before. And the Zoom call starts and they're all dicking around in the hotel room, like, joking around. And Katya's there like, hey, Chad, how you doing? And I'm like, and I'm freaking out, like, this is my moment. And I got no attention and I vomited all over the phone. I mean, not really, but I was just like trying to tell them. And like, and then, and then, and by the way, 15 minutes. Now we got 15 minutes. And I'm like, no way. So we hung up the phone. And I'm devastated. I'm literally like, that was it. And I got no time. And they're in Germany, they're going to go tell them. What I didn't know is Katya had reviewed all of the deck on the way over and they were already like, we're in. And I had no idea. So I'm sitting there like, sweating for, I don't know, days until they came back. And then we started the negotiation. But. And it was only because they read the deck in the end and they all. Because then they got the whole Adidas crew around it like, okay, let's go talk to these guys.
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B
What type of conversations were you guys having after we were meeting at that hotel in La Jolla.
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A
When you guys.
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B
Went back to have your own private space? What were you guys kicking around the walls?
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A
Well, Matt had negotiated some pretty big deals. He negotiated the NHL deal. He was involved in the. I Think in the NFL when we. We re. Upped the NFL and he even negotiated the purchase of the hockey company to Reebok.
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B
Was it ccm?
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A
Yeah, ccm. Jofa. And so he had done a lot of deals at this point. And I just remember. And I hadn't. And I just remember him going, never have I been a part of a negotiation like this before. This is new. And he had to. He was trying his tactics and he had to, like, reinvent himself because he's a great negotiator. But, like, it was a totally different ball game because every rule in the book was broken, essentially. I mean, we had never. We never experienced anything like that.
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B
It was fascinating to me. That was the first meeting I'd ever been in like, that I had been home for like four days.
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A
Oh, yeah, you'd just been on tour.
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B
I had been 10 months in Afghanistan.
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A
Yeah.
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B
While you were in the games. Afghanistan. I got back in August 10, hopped right into some of those meetings. And yeah, I remember when he projected the deal up on the wall in that one conference room. And I'm sitting there like, yeah, I don't know what any of those numbers mean. I don't know. We'll get back to you. I think that's what you're supposed to say in these meetings. Yeah, it's. God, it was weird on our side. I don't think. I'm trying to think about a way. The way to say this. Greg is very litigious and he's got a lot of you money. So I'll be cautious with what I say. Even though I'm not under an NDA. I don't think Steve was prepared very. Yeah, Everybody else in that room, not to their detriment, I think might have been a little bit over their head with that size, scope and scale of negotiation. I also don't think they understood, looking back at it, I don't think they understood the value at the time. I think the initial assessment was there was going to be a massive check up front and that was going to be the value they realized. I think that was probably the biggest thing that was standing in the way to begin with.
- [20:06]
A
Oh, yeah. If I recall that, that was it. And we had a totally different idea, like we were ready to and we did in the end, to put the whole brand behind this partnership.
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B
You thought you were negotiating with professionals.
- [20:18]
A
You guys did pretty amazing. I mean, I was blow. I was blown away at how resilient Matt was, honestly. I mean, I couldn't believe. I couldn't believe he didn't walk away more. I mean, really. I mean, some of those meetings were.
- [20:36]
B
I haven't.
- [20:36]
A
I had very intense.
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B
I had an N of one like that was. I'm just like. I guess this is how all of these are. So. I mean, I didn't know good, bad or indifferent. I would just wait for lunch to be served and eat my salad.
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A
Like. Yeah, we go out sometimes. We have lunch after those meetings, remember? And.
- [20:51]
B
Yeah. When everything had fallen apart completely and there was no way ever there was going to be a deal.
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A
Hey, guys.
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B
So who's gonna pick up the tab on this buffet?
- [20:59]
A
Yeah, that was. Yeah, it was very intense and it took. I Don't you remember how many months? I don't remember, but it was a lot of trips.
- [21:08]
B
It was a lot of trips. I know the official signing happened out at your guys gym in Boston.
- [21:15]
A
There's a great. There's a great story at the end. Do you remember what happened right before we signed?
- [21:20]
B
Oh, the near fist fight.
- [21:23]
A
No, I don't remember that one.
- [21:24]
B
Oh, you weren't in the room for that. That was between two CrossFit employees.
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A
Oh, okay. Oh, I do recall. Yeah, I recall. Yeah.
- [21:31]
B
Who shall remain nameless. I get it. I'm not against violence, but time and place, read the room. Maybe don't do that when there's a 150 million dollar deal on the line about 33ft away.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Now what's the story?
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A
Well, we had. We had our big global marketing meeting. You remember those big meetings, flying everybody in fly.
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B
Are you talking about the ridiculous fashion show at the end?
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A
Yes, I'm talking about those.
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B
What's wrong with you guys?
- [21:57]
A
You got to get everybody fired up. And that's not how.
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B
That's not how at all. I remember things I've ever seen you.
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A
Guys, I remember you guys were all there like, what is. What the hell is this? Like, we do this every quarter. What do you mean, what is this?
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B
Yeah, Froyo is all pissed because he had stumbled over a word on a speech. So he's just like shotgunning beers.
- [22:19]
A
Yeah, we take this stuff pretty serious. I mean there's, you know, a couple thousand people and we hadn't had a deal. We didn't have a deal yet. And everybody was in town and we had to prepare two presentations we were either going to launch to Audi, you mean, or all of our people.
- [22:36]
B
Gotcha.
- [22:37]
A
Because we couldn't.
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B
That's true.
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A
We couldn't ink the deal. And so we had a presentation that was. We're the fitness brand and it's without CrossFit and we're just talking about being the fitness brand, making fitness products, all this. And then we had this whole other one, which is we have a 10 year deal with CrossFit. And the day of the, the day of the event Matt is doing, is about to do his opening. I don't. You don't. Do you remember this?
- [23:03]
B
Yeah.
- [23:05]
A
No deal. And the no deal was because we wanted a portion of ownership. We wanted like 10. We wanted the option to buy 10% of, of CrossFit or something like that.
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B
Never going to happen. Never.
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A
And I am freaking devastated. I go to the legal offices at our headquarters and I'm sitting there just moping on the couch because I'm like months. I remember being at the games and we were so close. This was something that came in at the end and it was just like an absolute no go. And at the time, I think Matt was just like. I think he was up against Adira's board. People who wanted to know there was more.
- [23:49]
B
Is that a standard clause in some of their contracts, a deal of that size?
- [23:53]
A
I don't know, but I think there was like, this was risky. This is like a lot of money. This is this underground thing. Nobody knows how it's going to go. And so there's no deal. I'm moping in, in that office because I'm like, wow, there's. There's no way this can happen. And the head of all of legal who lived in Amsterdam, at Amsterdam at the time was a friend of mine because he was a former lacrosse player. And when I was doing Reebok lacrosse, I was in all kinds of lawsuits because that world, believe it or not, is very litigious. Yeah.
- [24:25]
B
Really?
- [24:25]
A
Lacrosse? Yeah.
- [24:26]
B
What are they suing about?
- [24:27]
A
The heads, like all the, like the, the offset head. And a very protective industry.
- [24:32]
B
Oh, talk about like IP lawsuits, people infringing.
- [24:35]
A
Okay. Yes. And so I was in some as Reebok and even before that. And so I had befriended him because he had helped and he had been willing to help because he liked lacrosse. He just comes walking in the room and he goes, hey, Chad, how's the CrossFit deal coming along? Matt's going on in less than an hour. And I'm like, it fell through. It's Paul Ehrlich is his name. And he's like, what are you talking about? I said, I know we wanted to have some ownership, a certain percentage, otherwise, like, we can't get the deal. And he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why do you want the ownership? And I said, I don't, I don't really know. I don't understand. He's like, it means nothing. And I said, stay right here, don't move. And I ran and got Matt and I said, matt, please come to. Just come with me to the legal offices and you got to meet, talk to Paul. And so he comes back and Paul says a bunch of stuff to him. I don't know what they talk about. I didn't really understand. And Matt's like, okay, chad, call the CrossFit guys, we can do the deal. And I called you, I think Jimmy was there. And we said, we don't need the ownership. And you guys said, green light. We faxed, we were faxing the papers over. That was the original one we signed. The official signing was that day. And then like the, you know, press signing was in the box.
- [25:50]
B
Yep.
- [25:50]
A
Because Matt, I ran up then and he was on stage already and had the two presentations ready and I had to give him a thumbs up like we got the deal. And then boom. CrossFit deal launch. I'll never forget it. Yeah, that's a good one.
- [26:06]
B
I bet you guys would take that one back if you could.
- [26:10]
A
No way, man. That was a game changer. You remember you used to come. You remember? Do you remember we had all the NFL players there and you took all the NFL players through a workout?
- [26:18]
B
Yes. God, I went all over the world with you guys. I mean, it was interesting for sure. It was a fascinating. It was a fascinating education in a large established brand. Working with up and coming, less established, maybe anti establishment brand from the core. There's a lot of gears that went just corking off into space. For sure. They did not mesh seamlessly.
- [26:46]
A
No.
- [26:47]
B
But yeah, certainly, certainly interesting to see how that worked.
- [26:52]
A
Yeah, it was incredible. I mean, we saw a whole transformation.
- [26:56]
B
I mean, the HQ is insane. You guys bought in so deeply. I mean, having the. How many years did you guys. What'd they call it then? Regionals? Yeah, right in the. Right at the hq. On the grass there.
- [27:07]
A
Yeah.
- [27:07]
B
Two or three at least, right?
- [27:08]
A
Yeah, that was amazing. I mean, at one point, the first one, I was an athlete and at one point Matt said, listen, I know you have like a decent sized job here. Nothing else matters because you've got the, you've got the regionals. Just train. And I'm like, okay, that's wildly irresistible. Training three times a day to say.
- [27:27]
B
Or coo whatever made up job title he had.
- [27:30]
A
It was like a week, it was like a week before. But I got to train with Austin and Lipson before the first regionals. But yeah, I mean, it was. It's actually part of what I'm doing now was inspired by that because what happened in that company was wild. I mean, it was. It was flow state for everybody and everybody was buying in. And it wasn't like that in the beginning. At one point I was just like messenger, you know, evangelist. And then once people tried it.
- [27:55]
B
It's a good role for you. You seem to wear the hat well of.
- [27:58]
A
I enjoyed it.
- [27:58]
B
Spearheading new things in and trying to convince people.
- [28:01]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:03]
B
Where do you think it went wrong?
- [28:07]
A
Well, because it was a 10 year.
- [28:08]
B
Deal, I do believe both of you and I. Well, actually you were gone from Reebok by 2020, right?
- [28:14]
A
Yeah, 2014. I moved to Korea.
- [28:16]
B
Korea. So you were still in Reebok but gone from that business tranche. I left in 14, actually as well from working for CrossFit. I'm pretty sure they made it till 2020, but it didn't resign. And from the best of my understanding, from people who were still a little bit proximal, it was pretty bad at the end.
- [28:33]
A
Yeah, I was pretty removed because I was out in Asia. But yeah, Froyo would be able to tell a lot more of what happened then. But what I. I mean, in the end, what happened in the beginning, I think eventually came to roost. Like there were these two massively different companies. And what was so. The reason it worked so well is Reebok has traditionally been known to be super flexible. It's actually how they've stayed alive and had these streaks.
- [29:00]
B
You mean to be able to lateral when it comes to product or innovation?
- [29:03]
A
Yeah. And also just partnerships, like a lot of brands are so strict. Like Nike is like they have to own you or they do not do a partnership. Right. Adidas is more strict too. And even some of the smaller brands are just. They're just not willing to do what's necessary to make something like that work. Like, you look at what we did, like we bent all of our rules internally, not rules, but we just changed so that we could work with CrossFit. And we had to because it was so different. And I think eventually. Well, my. So here's my theory. For what? For a multitude of reasons, we were never able to fully convert all of that heat that we had into commercial sales outside of the community of CrossFit.
- [29:49]
B
What do you think was missing?
- [29:50]
A
Well, I don't really know, honestly. I think part of it's just like natural because CrossFit was so it meant so much.
- [30:01]
B
Morning Zoe. Got donuts.
- [30:02]
C
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
- [30:05]
A
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile.
- [30:09]
B
Commercial like you teach me.
- [30:11]
A
So Dana.
- [30:12]
C
Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [30:24]
B
Wow, impressive.
- [30:25]
A
Let me try. T mobile is the best place to.
- [30:27]
B
Get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [30:31]
A
Nice.
- [30:32]
C
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [30:33]
A
T mobile is the best place to.
- [30:35]
B
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition.
- [30:40]
A
So what are we having for launch?
- [30:42]
C
Dude, my work here is done.
- [30:44]
B
The 24 month bill credits on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credit send and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel financing agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs 1099.99 and new line minimum 100 plus a month plan with auto PayPal taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Ooklip speed test intelligence data 1H 2025 visit t mobile.com and.
- [31:01]
A
I remember one of my jobs at one at one time was overseeing all of sports and entertainment marketing. So I was signing coaches and influencers outside of CrossFit and they were surprised that we were approaching them. And I said but, but we want to be the fitness brand. Like yeah, but you're the CrossFit guys. And so there was this wall. And I think the only way to really have made it work is we would have had to downsize significantly and really just fostered this incredible momentum we had in that community and let it grow slowly. And we couldn't afford to. We'd have to lay off hundreds if not thousands of people to downsize. And so I mean this is again stuff that I do now is we couldn't. We're trying to do two things. We're trying to be peer to this group and we were able to do that for a while, but then it's like, okay, we gotta pay the bills. And that's like doing well, but it's small compared to the overall Reebok global engine and all the headcount and all the overhead. And so we've got to stay in this commercial lane too. And before you know it, I lived this when I was in the market. You it's very hard when you're trying to be all things to all People, it's. It was great when we were super focused, but when that didn't convert outside of CrossFit, we had to divert focus elsewhere. And then who gets pissed obviously first crossfits. Like you remember some of those times it's like, hey guys, like where, where's, where's the support? Like, where are the global campaigns?
- [32:22]
B
Yeah.
- [32:23]
A
And at that time I think I was in Asia and Reebok's like, we gotta, yeah, we gotta hit numbers too.
- [32:29]
B
I mean, on the other side of that coin, there were a fair amount of deliverables on the CrossFit side that may not have met the bar for being achieved, let's put it that way. Do you. So we're late 20, 25 now into Q3, so almost six years from when the contract ended. What do you think looking back, the overall impact was of that 10 year relationship? Do you think it. Net positive? Do you think it.
- [32:57]
A
Very, very.
- [32:59]
B
Okay, then it lived beyond the actual contract cycle itself, you think?
- [33:03]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think. I mean, I look at things as impact on human lives. We together changed so many lives. CrossFit spread all over the globe. Remember? I mean all the stuff we were dropping boxes from helicopters all over the world, actually, cg.
- [33:23]
B
So let's not pretend that that actually happened.
- [33:25]
A
It was real.
- [33:25]
B
No, it wasn't. Remember I was in one of those marketing meetings where you guys played the helicopter sound and I was actually just out on the grass.
- [33:31]
A
Oh, true, true. Okay. But we did. That was. There were some conversations. Some of the countries did it, I think. Yes, some of the countries, actually.
- [33:38]
B
You have no proof of that.
- [33:39]
A
Okay, I think so. I think so.
- [33:41]
B
We can both think that you are living in the matrix, which we can discuss later. So you're having a fever dream.
- [33:47]
A
We should, we should discuss that. Yeah, but I, I look at how many gyms are out there and how many people caught on to functional fitness in general and health and wellness. It's massive. And a lot of what happened around the world was that partnership. It lit fire to this movement of health and wellness and functional fitness. So definitely net positive plus. I mean, if you look at those of us who got to experience that moment, that was once in a lifetime to witness a large brand come alive like that and get on fire and drink the Kool aid and just work so well together. I mean, that was, it was fascinating.
- [34:24]
B
Yeah.
- [34:25]
A
You remember we were, we were then presenting to other companies. We had a. We had. Mike Kurtachwell's job at one point was to approach other large organizations and we were putting CrossFit into their facilities because it was such a success story.
- [34:39]
B
Yeah. And now you look at the state of CrossFit and where it is on the bell curve, life cycle, whatever you'd want to describe it as. I am curious, just as an outsider who has had no insight with them for over a decade at this point, I wonder if it will survive. It's up for sale again.
- [35:00]
A
Oh yeah, I saw that. Yeah. I'm not really. I don't really keep tabs on it too closely, but I cannot imagine that thing's gonna die. There's still way too many.
- [35:10]
B
I don't think the training methodology will ever die. But I have often wondered what is left in the value of the name because the intellectual property actually owned by CrossFit. At least when I was there, it was some word marks.
- [35:25]
A
Yeah.
- [35:25]
B
I mean you, you probably could try to trademark a burpee, but good luck with that, you know, I mean they were using movements that had pre existed the branding name CrossFit.
- [35:34]
A
Yeah.
- [35:35]
B
You like, you're not gonna, you're not gonna trademark a couplet or a triplet or a combination of numbers.
- [35:43]
A
No.
- [35:43]
B
And I, I think at this point so many people understand the value of functional fitness and training, but there are also so many different portals with which they can receive it. So I don't know. I don't think the methodology will die. And that's one thing I have said from the jump when I worked for the company and after I left, I mean, people know I didn't necessarily leave on good terms, but I left on my choice. I. I take issue with certain entities and individuals inside of the organization. But one thing I have never talked down about is the efficacy and effectiveness of the model itself. But I just. If they're not the only lighthouse anymore.
- [36:23]
A
Yeah. Things happen in cycles. If you look around us, there's constant.
- [36:28]
B
Like with numbers.
- [36:29]
A
Like numbers.
- [36:31]
B
Yeah.
- [36:31]
A
Like world powers, like many things.
- [36:34]
B
Planets and not in the US we last forever.
- [36:38]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [36:40]
B
We're still on the upswing, buddy. Just climbing the ladder, doing great.
- [36:44]
A
Five more years.
- [36:46]
B
We need to make it through five months first. Okay.
- [36:48]
A
Okay. You know more about that than me. I just would never write anybody off. I would. The number of brands that I've seen be claimed dead that have come back alive in a way that you could have never imagined are endless. And I still think there's so much brand equity there still. Even though there's all it's part of the thing is there's so many people, like when there's a horse they can bet on or ride. And CrossFit could be that typically, I mean, you can. I haven't done this research, but somebody could do this research and you'll see there's a cycle that happens with good brands. Reebok's been a part of them. It's probably 10 year cycle, something like that. 9, 9, 10 year cycles. Maybe it needs two cycles. So I wouldn't write it off.
- [37:39]
B
I don't. And I'm not, I'm not trying to. I don't want it to be written off. I'm just curious. Looking at that environment and landscape, there's a lot of. I don't want to say CrossFit esque, but honestly, that's a really accurate term. You know, they're adding a small piece here or taking a small, like so subtraction and moving stuff in which honestly I like. Even when working for CrossFit, people would say to me, hey, I do Spartan race. Awesome, man. As long as you don't have orange stained fingers from eating Cheetos on your couch, I don't care what you do. Like, whatever gets your rocks off, go for it.
- [38:12]
A
Yeah, you know?
- [38:15]
B
Yeah, I don't know.
- [38:18]
A
Well, you know, some, some people are froning. If you see mayhem, they are like killing it. And he's, he's now become.
- [38:25]
B
I am curious though, his members, do they associate more with him or CrossFit? Do they even know the lineage there?
- [38:35]
A
Well, I.
- [38:36]
B
Or the provenance, if they will? If we're talking about art, that's the largest word I know. By the way.
- [38:40]
A
You've got me beat.
- [38:43]
B
I learned it by watching a documentary on an art theft. Leah. Oh my God. If she leaves me home alone, I'm gonna be watching a crime documentary when she leaves home and she's just like, what are you watching? I'm like, have you ever heard of this 1970s art theft in New York? How have I not known about this? And I'm like, I'm learning about the proven of this painting. She's like, what are you talking about? Well, I just learned that word five minutes ago, so now I'm trying to use it.
- [39:07]
A
It's.
- [39:08]
B
It's the lineage of art. It's how you determine its value. How do you not know this? And she just like, what is wrong with you?
- [39:14]
A
I love that.
- [39:15]
B
Dude. I love documentaries.
- [39:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can learn a lot. You can learn a lot. Well, I, I've been seeing some stuff on social media and I saw, I think Rory Rich Austin still works for me? Yeah. Austin Malioli went over there, and they were talking about CrossFit. They. I think they just held, like, an affiliate summit.
- [39:32]
B
Cool.
- [39:33]
A
And. I don't know. Just. I. There seems to be a lot of life there. I work with a guy, max, in. Max Ma in China, who's got the largest CrossFit business and functional business in China. It's called Project One, and he's thriving and growing.
- [39:47]
B
So are they paying their affiliate dues?
- [39:49]
A
They're paying their affiliate dues, yeah.
- [39:51]
B
To who, the ccp?
- [39:53]
A
Both.
- [39:54]
B
I feel like that money's not making it across the Pacific.
- [39:56]
A
Cfhq. It is. It is. But so, you know, you have these areas that it's, like, still thriving, and, I don't know. Mayhem seems to be doing something pretty interesting.
- [40:08]
B
When you have somebody like Rich, he can make it work.
- [40:11]
A
Yeah.
- [40:12]
B
I think absent. I. I can't say that. Absolutely. I would say absent a charismatic person like him, who also has the ability to bankroll the facility as well, it would be tougher.
- [40:25]
A
Yeah.
- [40:25]
B
I think. But possible.
- [40:27]
A
I agree. Yeah.
- [40:29]
B
And then you went over to Asia. You left. You bailed on us. Actually, I left at the same time. We both said, oh, here's an ejection seat. What if you pull this handle? What happens here?
- [40:37]
A
Yeah, not so bad.
- [40:39]
B
I am so grateful for the experiences that I got while working for that company and could not be happier that I left. That was actually the last time. Yeah. That was the last time I was ever a W2 employee. It's been 1099 since then.
- [40:59]
A
Yeah.
- [41:00]
B
I mean, for a little bit. When I was teaching. Like, we were at dinner last night, I was teaching the skydiving instruction to the Air Force.
- [41:07]
A
That was.
- [41:07]
B
I mean, I was working for a company at that point under a 1099, and that lasted for a year or two. But other than that, that would. That was kind of me in the woods with a really tiny flashlight, trying to figure out my way to the other side, which is scary.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah. I'm in it now. And your story is super inspiring.
- [41:28]
B
It shouldn't be. I obviously haven't told you enough about the failures. I'm still in the woods. The flashlight's a little bigger. Maybe I have, like, a mag light now instead of one of those little pen lights that put you on a keychain.
- [41:40]
A
Yeah.
- [41:41]
B
But it. I couldn't go back to working for somebody.
- [41:44]
A
No. And I remember. You remember we were trying. We wanted to hire you. Remember that?
- [41:48]
B
Who wouldn't? Obviously.
- [41:49]
A
Obviously. I mean, you were.
- [41:51]
B
I didn't know what the hell I was doing, dude.
- [41:52]
A
You. We. Everybody at Reebok loved you. I mean, Matt was like we all the time. How do we get Andy stuff? How do we get any stump.
- [41:59]
B
Greg would have killed him. Yeah.
- [42:01]
A
Trust me, I know I'm. But. But I couldn't see you. I remember thinking there's no way. No way he can work in here. This would kill him. Like.
- [42:11]
B
How about. I gotten bored real fast.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah. In the. And the bureaucracy and all the stuff that goes on. And you dealt with some in the military. I'm sure.
- [42:19]
B
But you have no idea how much bureaucracy we dealt. People think that Special operations. You're just on a treadmill all the time at a 10, just cruising. Dude.
- [42:27]
A
Not at all.
- [42:28]
B
Lose a piece of night vision. You want to learn about bureaucracy and paperwork? Oh boy.
- [42:32]
A
Oh yeah. I remember you talking about how the equipment and all that.
- [42:35]
B
Yeah. And it.
- [42:36]
A
Yeah.
- [42:37]
B
Mission approval. Multiple layers operate. It's just like. It's mission planning. You'll. You'll. The planning cycle at a conventional Seal team is 72 hours for an objective that'll take like two.
- [42:49]
A
Wow.
- [42:50]
B
Yeah.
- [42:50]
A
The.
- [42:51]
B
I've yet to see ever in a special operations movie. A 72 hour segment where they're looking at PowerPoint arguing about font, which I have gotten into a fistfight over font.
- [43:01]
A
On a slide in the military.
- [43:04]
B
Yeah.
- [43:05]
A
Really?
- [43:05]
B
Yes. Asshole told me we were going to use Times New Romance and it's clearly Helvetica. We went outside.
- [43:12]
A
You're joking.
- [43:13]
B
No.
- [43:14]
A
You're joking.
- [43:15]
B
No. Helvetica.
- [43:16]
A
How early in your. I was reading your book and you've got some great stories by the way in there.
- [43:20]
B
How far into it are you?
- [43:22]
A
I'm 30. 30 pages. So you've.
- [43:24]
B
So the same as you were yesterday. Thanks a lot.
- [43:26]
A
Yeah.
- [43:27]
B
Just putting in.
- [43:27]
A
Yeah, I didn't. Sorry. I did some other work this morning.
- [43:29]
B
Totally joking.
- [43:31]
A
For real. How far into your career were you when you did that tail end? No.
- [43:36]
B
Yeah. You've known me long enough to know how I am.
- [43:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could be stubborn.
- [43:43]
B
No, I was right.
- [43:45]
A
And what happened? Did you win? Was it Hellvetica? Yeah. Was. Did. Was you actually. Fist fight.
- [43:51]
B
We shoved each other out a little.
- [43:52]
A
Bit and you were literally saying times New Roman.
- [43:56]
B
It's Helvetica. No, I didn't appreciate his enthusiasm for a dog typesetting. And it didn't look good and we didn't put it in there.
- [44:09]
A
So there you go. So you'd fit great at corporate.
- [44:11]
B
No, I wouldn't at all.
- [44:13]
A
Because the amount of hours.
- [44:15]
B
Yeah. I'd be like, the office. Like, get away from my stapler.
- [44:17]
A
Yeah, actually, you wouldn't be great. You'd be in so many fights. That stuff happened all the time. Yeah. I couldn't see you. So when I heard your story and how you got to where you are, and I know it was not easy, but it's inspiring because it is scary. I've been out. I never.
- [44:30]
B
It's still scary. Don't get me wrong, man. I. People, and I say this so often on the show, people think maybe from the outside, it appears as if I have this roadmap for I'm gonna do this. And then once that's successful, these opportunities will present themselves. No.
- [44:45]
A
Yeah.
- [44:45]
B
Even now, everything I did. So when I was working for CrossFit, I started off teaching on the seminar staff only for military seminars. The first seminar, first thing I ever did and got paid for from CrossFit was a military seminar up at a military base in Edmonton. Because it was still tiny. There weren't that many. It wasn't tiny. The seminar demand was not what it grew to, where it was every weekend, multiple a weekend, and all over the world. Yeah. And eventually, you know, they made, to the best of my knowledge, I am the first person outside of Dave and Nicole that they authorized to take a team, a Flowmaster and go teach. So then we were able to do two. But it started on the military side, then teaching on the civilian side. Went on that deployment in 2010, came back, switched over to the business stuff, charitable initiative stuff, managing all the licensing and sponsorship, being Greg's pilot. It was wild.
- [45:39]
A
That's right.
- [45:40]
B
Yeah. But. And so a lot. So the pilot stuff, I had my pilot's license. I got that in 2006. Because when I left the East Coast Command and came to buds, they were messing around with taking away Winter Hell Week because attrition is higher. And I checked in and they're like, yeah, we got nothing for you for about four months. So deuces. And I'm driving home, literally driving home, trying to figure out what I'm going to do.
- [46:07]
A
When is this? After you listen.
- [46:08]
B
2006.
- [46:09]
A
Oh, before.
- [46:10]
B
This is before. Like, right around the time I started working for them. And I'm driving home near Santee. There's an airport called Gillespie Field. And this little Cessna was coming in looking like it was about to crash at any moment because it was a student pilot. I was like, that looks interesting. So I followed it to where it landed.
- [46:26]
A
No way.
- [46:27]
B
And did an intro flight and decided I was going to get my pilot's license to burn some time, paid for it out of pocket. And years later, back in 2010 or 2011, when I was working with you guys, Greg called me. Cause he had a house in Watsonville, Prescott and San Diego. And he was tired of driving because it's about an eight hour triangle on any one of those legs. He's like, get back up to speed, we're buying a plan. I'm like, okay, okay. Started taking flight license again the next day and then went through, all the way through all my licenses. And then.
- [46:59]
A
And this was like a key thing for you when you left CrossFit, right.
- [47:02]
B
But not intentionally. And this is the thing people like, oh, how did you know that was gonna happen? I didn't know that was gonna happen.
- [47:07]
A
You don't. But you have such good intuition. You have a. Let me say this all you want.
- [47:15]
B
You have poor intuition for thinking that I have good intuition.
- [47:19]
A
Nice. You do. And you feel I'm with you. You don't have a plan, but. And I don't either. And you feel out the moment you kind of just. Which is a little scary because you don't have a plan. But I don't describe it like that.
- [47:33]
B
I take. So when I left CrossFit, I had my military. I was getting. How did this work? When I first got medically retired, I was getting. I was, I was at 90% disability, so I think it counted as military retirement. But then they. We went through my record and it became 100% permanent in total. And at that point it becomes a disability payment. So it increased a little bit because I qualified for some other programs. But I went. That's the only money I had was from the small medical retirement. Like the day after I quit CrossFit I started selling things out of our garage on Craigslist because I instantly realized I had to reduce our burn rate. And everything that wasn't nailed down I started to get rid of because I knew it was about to get really interesting and it wasn't about intuition. I didn't have any other choices. So I was doing the charter flying part 135. But that stuff is really infrequent. When the phone rings, you fly, you get paid. When it doesn't, you're not getting paid. So it's not like when the guy called me about the skydiving training. I had this great intuition. I didn't have a job. So yes. But I also didn't have any other options. So it's not like I was sitting there going, being A Metrodome. Hey, should I do this or do that? It was, yes, I will absolutely do that to make money. I had no idea where it was going to lead, and that led to professional skydiving and BASE jumping, because I got into jumping so much and was able to create content around it that wasn't through intuition.
- [49:05]
A
Well, you could have made a lot of other choices. And I've seen people who made a lot of other choices in that same position.
- [49:12]
B
Yeah.
- [49:13]
A
And I don't know what I would have made, though.
- [49:15]
B
I just said yes to the choice that was presented to me. There weren't. There were not plural at the time. It wasn't, hey, teach the Air Force or go do this. That's the only phone call I got.
- [49:27]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:28]
B
So.
- [49:28]
A
Well, I still claim what I claim because that's why you're good at this, too.
- [49:33]
B
You can read.
- [49:35]
A
Yes, I know. But you're good at it because you can read people. Well, I've also been doing it for you make decisions. Even though in your book, your opening of your book, you didn't make such a great decision.
- [49:44]
B
Who does when they're 20?
- [49:46]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I did not.
- [49:49]
B
No, I didn't.
- [49:49]
A
Definitely not.
- [49:50]
B
And actually, if I could go back and choose whether or not that happened to me or not, I would leave that in my life because of the impact that it had.
- [50:01]
A
Yeah.
- [50:01]
B
Because if I had removed it, I probably would have learned that lesson later in life, but who knows how many mistakes I would have made along the way?
- [50:07]
A
Amen. Amen.
- [50:09]
B
It's tough when it comes to parenting. You know this. As somebody who has far too many kids, you are out of your mind for having five children.
- [50:15]
A
It's nuts.
- [50:16]
B
Also, why not just go six? Like, half does.
- [50:20]
A
I thought we were. I thought four was, like, gonna kill us. And what's the difference? She wanted. And I didn't. I didn't want to do it. I was, like, terrified. And there's no way. Both of us were like, okay, that's it. You just. Sometimes you just know. Once you push the boundary like that, you know, when it's.
- [50:39]
B
I just feel like it'd be cooler. When people say many kids you get, like, half does.
- [50:44]
A
Well, she comes from eight, so she. I mean, her family. Yeah. It's crazy.
- [50:48]
B
That is crazy.
- [50:49]
A
Yeah. But, you know, I don't have a.
- [50:51]
B
Grand design for my life even. Again, telling you today about the phone call I had. We were randomly talking about the structure of the coffee shop, which, again, I made up on the fly and get a call. Maybe something will Shift it. Maybe it'll come together, maybe it won't. But that wasn't me seeking that out from somebody. That's not me trying to pitch that. That's the phone ring. And I was like, what's up, dude?
- [51:16]
A
Yeah. So I believe. Yeah, I believe that there's a lot of design to this thing we call life.
- [51:24]
B
Designed by who?
- [51:26]
A
I mean, I call it God, but I don't really know. Although I've had a lot of pretty wild experiences. And the way I see you living is what I would consider in a state of response to the natural rhythm of life. Things come into your purview. You read it, you're like, to you, it looks like it's obvious, but to another person.
- [51:49]
B
Why do you think it looks obvious to me? You haven't.
- [51:51]
A
Well, because you say. You say, I don't have another chance. I don't have another option.
- [51:55]
B
In that moment, I didn't.
- [51:56]
A
Yeah, but now you do, right?
- [51:58]
B
Well, maybe I'll say no to the potential offer that comes.
- [52:01]
A
But you're. But you're willing to entertain it. And my point is this. Like, you. You have this kind of openness to life. Whether you believe it or not, it's obvious to me that you are just.
- [52:13]
B
What does that mean?
- [52:14]
A
What do you mean by openness? It means you are. You're not trying to control everything.
- [52:19]
B
Oh, I tried that.
- [52:19]
A
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. Yeah, me too.
- [52:24]
B
That's called crippling. Anxiety. Doubt.
- [52:27]
A
Correct.
- [52:28]
B
Stress. Living like you have. For two years, I thought I had ulcers.
- [52:33]
A
Yeah.
- [52:34]
B
I just. And then I realized, oh, I'm just absolutely miserable.
- [52:37]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I was there, too, because you're trying to control everything, to make yourself feel safe. And you went through that experience and, you know, like, oh, shit. Only thing I can really control is myself. How I respond, how I think about things. And once you do, you'll get to.
- [52:49]
B
That chapter in the book.
- [52:50]
A
Yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait. And once you do, and a lot of people don't, because it's scary, because it actually means you have to be willing to let go of plans. You can have plans, but you hold them loosely because you're open to the fact that, hey, something, I might get a phone call. And a lot of people aren't. I work with a lot of people who would be like, I'm on this path. And what you don't realize, my. My belief is that you are blocking the natural rhythm. If you look, in nature, things are operating by natural rhythm. There are natural, like, cycles there's circadian rhythm, there's fractals, there's Fibonacci sequence. That everything's like. There's design.
- [53:28]
B
Take it easy.
- [53:29]
A
Okay. There's design about everywhere.
- [53:31]
B
You're in a ten now. We need you to six. Okay.
- [53:34]
A
Well, I think that. I think in our lives is the same thing. And it's been like a lot of my life journey is learning to just try and respond and not have a plan. And I really respect. It's very hard. It's terrifying. And in this journey of my life, it's been really freaking hard because I haven't worked in almost six years. But I see you, and you're kind of just like. Whether you believe it or not, you're flowing with it. And this is when things come. When people. Because this. I've seen enough times when people let go and they realize I can't control anything going on out there. Inevitably, things start to come into their lives. Good things, because they're, like, open. And it's how this little thing called life works. It's like you.
- [54:16]
B
I had this conversation yesterday with my guest, a guy I had never met. We were talking about. I forget how we got onto it, but I was explaining to him. So I turned. By this time the episode comes out will be 48. I turned 48 on Friday, and I'll use the podcast as an example. I used to deeply worry, who is my next guest gonna be? I have to. I need to have six at all times scheduled, which would be a month and a half of Monday episodes. I didn't care anymore.
- [54:49]
A
Yeah.
- [54:49]
B
Because they'll reach out when it's time. And every time that looks like there's gonna be a scheduling conflict, I'm like, whatever. It'll work itself out. And guess what happens? Always it works itself out.
- [55:03]
A
Bingo.
- [55:04]
B
It's tough to teach because I have learned that lesson now with four plus decades of experience of trying to go the other direction. White knuckling it. And then also getting to places where I felt so overwhelmed, where actually you're more. And it'd be great to say I got so overwhelmed. And then I had this epiphany that I need to relax. What really happened is you're like, where's the bucket that I throw this towel in? Because I'm so done.
- [55:29]
A
Yeah.
- [55:30]
B
And then it all works out. You're like, what? Wait a minute. What just happened?
- [55:33]
A
Yeah. You let go.
- [55:34]
B
Yeah.
- [55:35]
A
It's the art of letting go.
- [55:36]
B
I don't know how to teach that to people, though, because again, I have like for my. My youngest daughter, she's 17. Hey, sweetheart, don't worry about school. It'll figure itself out. She'd be like, sweet. I'm never going again. You know what I mean?
- [55:51]
A
I have these conversations. I know my kids. No, I have that. Those conversations.
- [55:55]
B
Like, it's like. I'm not saying that, you know, I'm like, go to school, you little son of a. I'm paying for this. You know what I mean?
- [56:03]
A
It's the paradox.
- [56:04]
B
Well, yeah, like you said, most things are a paradox, or a lot of life is a paradox, but it is. You have since I've known you. When I first met you, you were. Have been deeply faithful. When I first met you, it was more in religion. I'd love to hear your journey through that because obviously you went from a place. I'm speaking for you a little bit, correct me if I'm wrong. Where that deep belief. Then you started questioning that belief. And I think that's an interesting journey. And most the deeply religious people I know, they don't. They don't have that place for whatever. Some do, some don't. It's a. It's a mixed bag. But I. And I'm not a faithful or religious person. It's never landed with me. And I'll say this every time. I'm not saying that I. Not open to believing. It just hasn't landed with me. And I'm not willing or capable of faking it. I would tell people love that about you. I mean, my ex wife used to like to go to church. Not even if she was that deeply religious, I don't think. And I would sit there and I would watch the other people, and they were so bought in and it was so meaningful. Oh, my God, I am envious of that. But I can't fake that. Where's the free coffee?
- [57:12]
A
Out in the hallway.
- [57:13]
B
And I would go get it, I would come back and I would literally spend more time people watching and wonder, what does that feel like? And people will say, well, you just have to believe. I'm like, yeah, okay. I mean, I can say that to myself in the mirror, but I don't feel that. So what's this actual exercise? I'm trying to talk myself into it because I am talking to myself in the mirror here, and I'm not very effective at convincing myself for that stuff. But the letting go thing, it's not that you. Because it's not completely letting go. I would describe it as just relaxing your grip. Yeah, I don't know how to Teach that.
- [57:47]
A
Well, I love that, man. I do this with my kids, and I'm not. I can't claim it's successful, but what I try to do is I. I try to study a lot about the universe, like how it actually works. And I can't claim I know everything, but nobody can.
- [58:06]
B
And the more you study, you're going to realize you know almost nothing about this speck that we are on.
- [58:10]
A
Correct. Which is fascinating, but there is a lot we do know, and there are some of these things like that I believe strongly, which is, if you look around, everything here seems to be designed for growth. Here, here, everywhere. In lock, kennel, definitely. I mean, he just needs to grow. I mean, you need to let him out of there. See, he's caged up. That's why he can't grow anymore.
- [58:33]
B
No, he's a miniature dachshund. That's it, man. Seven inches tall is about as far as he gets.
- [58:38]
A
You are priceless. That I. I think everything's wired for growth. If you look at creation, death and rebirth, it's. It's everywhere. You tear your muscle to grow your muscle. So if I can teach my kids. All right, you live in this. In this environment where you have to expect trials and tribulations, not as something bad as the reason you came here is to experience this for some reason. I'm not going to claim I know the whole story, but your job is to recognize that's part of what you signed up for here. Or, like, that's just it. And if you can see it like that, you look at everything like a workout, and you have to then recognize like, you control no one. Every single day I'm in the house with the kids, my number one thing coming out of my mouth is, you do not control anybody else but yourself. And the more you're looking at them as they're the problem, the more in prison you are. You just keep imprisoning yourself in this loop of blame because you can never fix it out there. It will only fix in here, which is the idea of letting go. Because now you realize, oh, shit, okay, I can't control any of them. Any of them. So what can I control? Only how I think about things, how I respond to things. And I think if we were doing this in our homes from a young age and modeling it, even though it took me 40 some years to figure it out. And the kids will say that. Judah will be like, you didn't learn this until you're 40. What makes you. I'm 12 and I'm like, I get it, but I know it now. And no one had this conversation with me. So you can get it at 20. I'm not saying you got to do it now, but if you can learn and he has. They have breakthroughs, they'll come back and be like, I did it. Like, somebody said something to me and I was so frustrated. And then I remembered that's their thing. Like, I don't want any of my kids to be able to be rocked by anything outside of them. Right. I mean, I don't know where you're at, but do you ever use the.
- [60:40]
B
Tug of war analogy with your kids?
- [60:42]
A
I don't know.
- [60:43]
B
It's a great way to get this point across. Sometimes the best thing to do is just let go of the rope.
- [60:49]
A
Yeah. Look what happens. The other person. Yeah.
- [60:53]
B
It's holding on is optional.
- [60:54]
A
Yeah.
- [60:55]
B
The battle is optional.
- [60:56]
A
Yes. Amen.
- [60:57]
B
Sometimes you just have to let go of the rope.
- [60:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And. And I. And to your point on your kids like, getting it. I don't know. I mean, it's. It's hard when you're in it, but I think with enough reps and you're like, saying it again and again and teaching them about how things work, that's.
- [61:12]
B
Why what they're missing is the reps. Yeah. It's the experience.
- [61:16]
A
Yeah.
- [61:16]
B
It's easier for me to look back and say, well, in my 30s and my daughter be like, yeah, well, in my sevens, you know, I didn't have those experiences.
- [61:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [61:26]
B
You can't short circuit experience.
- [61:27]
A
Yeah. But there was anyone telling you this stuff when you were young. No one was talking to me like this. So when I was processing those experiences, I didn't have this.
- [61:37]
B
But there is a portion of my old job where, I mean, if you look at the chaotic nature of the job, you can't control what hap. You can, can. You can do the best you can to plan, but no plan is ever perfect, ever. And it's never going to be reflective of what you're actually you face. On the ground. Of the hundreds of operations we did, precisely and exactly zero went as planned. So you can sit there and try to mold the world to your plan, or you can read the world and just react to it. So it was to a degree, reinforced, but not directly. Not like a PowerPoint class where they're like, all right, today, gentlemen, this is what we're going to talk about. But I would say indirectly in the training model and the execution in the real world. Yeah, that probably helped.
- [62:22]
A
Yeah, that definitely Helped you.
- [62:23]
B
And I was in that world since I was 19 to my mid to late 30s, so.
- [62:28]
A
That's incredible. Yeah.
- [62:30]
B
Portions of it were incredible. Portions of it sucked a massive.
- [62:33]
A
Sure, sure. But it gave you discipline and all. A bunch of stuff that you probably really needed.
- [62:37]
B
Yeah. But you know what else can give you all that stuff with that military service? Organized sportsman.
- [62:42]
A
Yeah.
- [62:42]
B
You can learn every lesson that you learned in the military from organized sports.
- [62:46]
A
Oh, that's good to hear. That's. That was my path.
- [62:48]
B
Yeah.
- [62:49]
A
Yeah.
- [62:49]
B
If you think about it, teamwork, communication, mutual support, you know, after action, what went well, what didn't. Practice owning up to your mistakes where you felt it's all there.
- [63:04]
A
Yeah.
- [63:05]
B
Now, I will admit the consequences are slightly less, but they're all there. So you can at least get the flavor of it. So.
- [63:12]
A
Yeah. Well, you know, it would has driven me a little bit nutty over the years is all this parenting and all this talk about, like, how we should live. I've been obsessed for as long as I can remember with the question of why.
- [63:29]
B
It's my favorite question.
- [63:30]
A
Why am I here? Because if I believe that if I can, if my kids have a good enough why. Like, not just why they're like, what's their why to live, but why we believe we actually are even existing in the first place, it can reorientate you so quickly.
- [63:47]
B
What's your why?
- [63:49]
A
My personal why. I mean, I'm. Right now, I'm doing it, but it's. I believe that we are all here, including me, obviously, to learn how to love and to be loved. And my unique way to do that is to coach and guide based on my experience for the last 40 years. So you know me in these systems, I have believe I've uncovered some first.
- [64:14]
B
Person ever to find them.
- [64:17]
A
First I have discovered you're like the Magellan, like the Magellan of why we're here. But they've only been around for thousands of years and I've just stumbled into.
- [64:27]
B
Them and there is absolutely nothing new under the sun except for maybe Elon Musk's landing rockets. I think that is a little bit new.
- [64:36]
A
Yeah. I feel like most of the stuff, especially theoretical and obviously physics, we're just.
- [64:40]
B
Rediscovering stuff or finally evolving technology to the point where what once was theoretical is on the the cusp of being practical. Yeah, I do like watching those rockets catching it is.
- [64:52]
A
It's amazing.
- [64:53]
B
It's like. I'm sorry, what?
- [64:54]
A
It's amazing.
- [64:55]
B
I would like for him to let me ride on the top of one for, like, 50,000. Stall it out. I'll jump off. It can land. What's the big deal?
- [65:03]
A
What would happen to you, by the way, if you're on the tip?
- [65:05]
B
Oh, man, that would.
- [65:06]
A
Would it burn you up going that fast?
- [65:09]
B
I probably would kill me from the GS, but I don't think so. No, I don't think so, because you would actually be ascending into thinner air. It's when you are coming back through the atmosphere as it's getting thicker that it heats up.
- [65:24]
A
But if you. If they, like, strapped you to the side of that.
- [65:27]
B
No, I want to be what's. Who's on the side. I'm on a lawn chair top.
- [65:31]
A
There's the image of you strapped.
- [65:33]
B
No, in my head, it's a normal Walmart lawn chair with just a cargo strap across the bottom. And I'm sitting there with my parachute on, and I wanted to apex at 50 grand, and I'm like.
- [65:43]
A
But they'd have to stabilize your head, right? So you have to be playing that. But they're in there, and they're okay. So technically, you. You could be. Or all that friction would mess you up.
- [65:53]
B
Listen, nobody. Some questions don't have answers.
- [65:55]
A
Okay, well, you should go. You should. You should.
- [65:57]
B
I don't want to be in a capsule, because then you got to open the door. I just want to jump off the top.
- [66:01]
A
You should talk to.
- [66:01]
B
I'll hold an umbrella so it can break.
- [66:03]
A
Joe Rogan. He knows Musk. And see if he'll do some stunt with you. I don't know.
- [66:07]
B
Joe would talk to me anymore if I pitched ideas. He's got enough people pitching him really odd ideas. I don't think he needs another guy. He's like, hey, man, can you get a hold of Elon for me? I want to use one of those rockets to jump off. Even though I think Elon might. He might humor me, perhaps.
- [66:22]
A
He might.
- [66:23]
B
I feel like it'd be a really.
- [66:24]
A
Expensive journey, very risky.
- [66:27]
B
I don't care about that. It's the expense. That's because if I have to write the check for that, it's probably not gonna happen.
- [66:31]
A
I don't think you'd have to write the check. I think so many people would pay you to do that.
- [66:37]
B
Yeah.
- [66:38]
A
Yeah.
- [66:39]
B
To love. Huh? That's what we're here for. That's your why?
- [66:42]
A
Yeah. To learn. Well, to learn how to love and be loved. And I studied love for five freaking years. Hell trials. What led me down that path was I was suffering, and I. And I Was deep in my faith, and I had uncovered at one point this idea of love. And I realized I don't even know what that means. I thought I knew what that meant, but I realized I don't think I understand love. And I was blown away.
- [67:13]
B
How did you research it? What's the volume?
- [67:15]
A
Well, by my own experience, number one, a lot of contemplation, the Bible. And I literally would go online and like, just read stories about love and read definitions of love and. And then I want. I went through a process of testing it, like, methodically to understand, like, ab.
- [67:33]
B
Testing love.
- [67:34]
A
Well, like. Like being in circumstances, difficult circumstances, and trying to learn, like, what does love look like now? And what I would do is if you go inward, but there's so many answers, they're inside of you, not like in the computer.
- [67:50]
B
The files are in the computer. I get the reference. My children would not.
- [67:54]
A
So I would. I would take an action, I'd get a result, and I would go contemplate it for a couple of hours, sometimes a couple of days, and wait until I got clarity. And what I found was what for me was mind blowing, which was love was not a principle that you could splash across everything. I think at the time I thought you could say love looks just like. Kind, like in the Bible. It's like kindness, patience, all of this. However, what do those things look like in the moment? And it was not consistent. And what I realized is love was circumstantial, meaning I had to be tapped into my inner self in a moment, which took a lot of practice to say, in this moment, what does love look like for this person? Because you have to work on dissolving yourself. Because I found out how much I operated for myself, which I've started analyzing my thoughts, watching my thoughts, and realizing, oh, this is all about me. Like, I'm. I'm literally doing this not for them, for me. Okay, that's not love. And so I had to go through this whole process to uncover, like, what does love look like here? What does love look like there? What does it? Sometimes love is harsh. Sometimes it's like speaking hard truth. Sometimes it's silence. Sometimes it's gentleness, sometimes. And. And you can't define it broadly for everybody. People need to find what it means for them in that moment. And the only way I found was going inward and tons of contemplation.
- [69:25]
B
Are you talking, like, staring at a wall?
- [69:28]
A
No, I'm talking, like, on my hands and knees and in prayer and. Or just literally, like in contemplation. Sitting in silence. And for me, I'm very visual, so I will literally go inward and I go to this, like, black void. Space in me is the best way I can describe it. People who meditate understand this.
- [69:46]
B
Do you have a special outfit for this?
- [69:50]
A
Sometimes. Sometimes. But I don't want to divulge with that.
- [69:53]
B
I mean, are you, like, in a polar bear mink coat with, like, earmuffs on and an eye thing? What?
- [70:00]
A
What? I got pretty good, so I didn't need that anymore. That's how I started.
- [70:04]
B
Okay.
- [70:05]
A
But, you know, you're. Basically, the way I was looking at it was. There's a. There's a certain way. There's a certain result I want out of my behavior for the other person and a certain way I want to feel. And I'm not getting it. Like, all the signals are telling me, like, something's not right. Because I was having trouble when I came. When I left Reebok, major identity crisis. All my identity was tied up in titles and money and power and stuff that I had no idea. And so I was willing to drop the idea that I was who I thought I was. That was like, my first step and where to find myself. I realized I just need to go inward. Like, I had a mentor at the time, and I was studying scripture deeply. And I just started, like, literally getting on my hands and knees, putting my head down like this, and just seeking truth. Like, just show. I would just say, show me what I can't see. Show me. And you'd be amazed at things that just come up. And I don't. I don't care where you think they come from.
- [71:06]
B
But you have no idea. The comments I'm holding back.
- [71:13]
A
Just let me keep going.
- [71:14]
B
I'm trying to contain myself.
- [71:18]
A
You. You would be blown away, I believe.
- [71:20]
B
Well, maybe I have a vivid imagination. I would not be probably willing to share the things that would come to me, the things that I not able to see.
- [71:28]
A
Those are the. Well, those are the first. The first things that come to you are like, it's crazy. I mean, in if. Let's say I'm in a fight with my wife and I react with this. Like, the feeling I get inside is horrible to feel like I did something wrong. It's just this, like, gross feeling. And inside I'm, like, raging. So my first thoughts are horrible. But then if you sit there long enough and you really, like, okay, what is really happening? Inevitably I will see. Oh, I'm in pain. Like, I feel like I did something wrong. Did I? And then I'LL ask, let me see them. And all of a sudden, I see them. Oh, they're in pain. They just lashed out. Not because I did something wrong. They are literally in pain because I haven't seen them, like, let's say, my wife. I literally could not see that woman for decades. When I say I couldn't see, you.
- [72:20]
B
Don'T mean see her. Like, see her. See her with your eyes. You're talking about my heart. Yeah.
- [72:24]
A
I was out of touch with my heart. I couldn't see her. I couldn't. And she used to say it all the time. You. You don't see me. And I thought she was nuts. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm. I'm looking at you.
- [72:34]
B
You're wearing blue jeans and a red shirt.
- [72:36]
A
I see you. Yeah, I see you. I hear you. And she's like, you don't. And she was right. Because I had. I had many moments where I actually could, and they weren't until in my 40s. And I was like, whoa, she's right. I couldn't see. She was in pain. She was suffering. She was asking for help in her own way, and I could not hear it. And that crushed me. And then I realized I couldn't see my kids. And it doesn't look. It's not like I'm a monster and like, just terrible person on the outside. People would say, yeah, you're fine. During that time, I got pretty. It got ugly. Like, I remember yelling at the kids. I remember punching the wall, because really? Yeah.
- [73:15]
B
That is not anything I would have get the. As a parent of three children, I can understand the frustration that comes with that. I am not advocating that you should ever yell at your kids. I've lost my temper before. I always followed up with apologizing and explaining how wrong I was in that.
- [73:29]
A
Behavior, which is huge.
- [73:32]
B
Punching the walls is not one I would have seen you doing.
- [73:35]
A
Yeah, it got real dark from 2021 to 2020, the end of 24. And it wasn't that I was mad at them. I. I hated myself.
- [73:46]
B
This is why I originally reached out to you. We had talked years ago, but it was brief. And then I saw you posting. I think I might have seen it on Facebook because you probably auto post from Instagram to Facebook and you were talking about how deep and dark of a place you got. And that's why I instantly reached out because I'm so tired of people talking about how awesome everything is.
- [74:08]
A
Yeah.
- [74:08]
B
It paints this tapestry of success when it's often not there. And it makes people quite like, why isn't that happening to me?
- [74:16]
A
Yeah.
- [74:17]
B
Why don't I feel that way? Why don't I have that success? And the reality is we're all an absolute dumpster fire. And anything you see on social media is completely optional. It's curated at best. You get. It's like, oh, I didn't know that the camera was on when I was talking about my success. Like, it's in your hand. What are you talking about?
- [74:34]
A
Yeah, yeah. My daughter, we were looking at pictures from. They were at an event last weekend. And. And my oldest, Audrey, she literally was looking at. She goes, it's so funny, dad. These pictures are amazing. That's not at all what it was like there. It wasn't bad. She's like, this is not an accurate reflection of that event last night at dinner.
- [74:54]
B
I know some people say they were at dinner like, we were at last night. Went and got sushi. Best sushi place in Montana. Montana is known for its fresh seafood. It's not a big deal.
- [75:03]
A
Andy orders surf and turf sushi, which is not sushi. But I tried it and it was good.
- [75:08]
B
It's sushi enough. We really scrambled the waitress's eggs when we were asking her if the oysters were from Flathead Bay, which is not a real thing, by the way.
- [75:15]
A
That was priceless.
- [75:16]
B
I took that as an emotional victory. But I've been there and watched, like, the camera. They arrange the plates. The camera comes out, and you'll literally just. The person is talking themself into the headspace they want to portray because they were miserable right before it went off. And maybe they just hate the fact that they have to take the picture to begin with. Maybe it's not this deep hatred of oneself. Even though I tend to think sometimes it falls more in that direction. But they'll sit, click, and a bunch of pictures. But as soon as they get it, it just. It's like a waterfall or a dam bursting and they're back. I'm like, that picture is bullshit.
- [76:00]
A
Yeah.
- [76:01]
B
And people see it and they judge themselves against. I'm as guilty of that as other people as well. Why does it. Screw that guy? I'm better at that guy than fill in the blank. Like, then I'm like, what am I? What am I doing?
- [76:12]
A
Like, yeah, like, stop that.
- [76:14]
B
Celebrate other people's success generally. Like, be happy for your friends when they're successful and even other people you don't know.
- [76:20]
A
Yes. One of the ugliest things we can do is compare.
- [76:23]
B
Yeah.
- [76:23]
A
I went through That I went through that, too.
- [76:25]
B
How did. How did things start taking a turn for the. The worse for South?
- [76:32]
A
Yeah. Well, it was. When I left, I thought it was going to be great. I was like, cool. Two years. I made some great money. I was running all of Asia for some time, which was great. And I learned a ton. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna take two years off. Like, I can do that.
- [76:48]
B
Wow. Did you know what you wanted to fill that time with?
- [76:50]
A
No. Yeah. I mean, I thought we were. I had this, like, fantasy in my head that I'm going to be in the house now. Like, I'm not traveling, and I don't.
- [77:00]
B
Know, everything will be totally normal because it's completely different than it was before. But dad's back now.
- [77:05]
A
Yeah.
- [77:06]
B
So this is white picket fence, right?
- [77:08]
A
I mean, right? Isn't everybody happy? Like, I'm finally here.
- [77:12]
B
They've lived their entire life around your schedule and in your absence. So you actually interrupt things by your presence.
- [77:19]
A
Yep. So first mistake. Zero conversation with my wife about, hey, so I'm going to be in the house now. Maybe we should talk about, like, who does what. So I'm just like, I assume everything's going to be great. Complete idiot. And then I assume I'm going to feel great because I've done well, and I think I know myself. I think, like, I'm this man of God. And. And. Holy crap, dude, I could not relax. I remember I was just so. I was buzzed all the time. I was trading in the stock market, and I just had this day. Trading Ed. Yeah. And I had just this edge about.
- [77:56]
B
Grab you.
- [77:57]
A
Yeah. And all. Everything. It was just this. I had always had so much structure, and. And it was draining. I mean, I was exhausted when I left Reebok, but I couldn't freaking relax. And I couldn't talk to my wife appropriately. I didn't even know what was really going on. And I couldn't see her at the time. And now. And for her, I think at this point, she's like, all right, this is my chance that. To help this guy see me. And so she was pretty hard on me. And I don't blame her, because it had been, like, yeah, decades that I hadn't seen her. So no conversation, none of that. And so I started having challenges in my marriage. My kids had no respect for me. Dude, in Asia, people just listen to you, and you're the boss. I mean, I'm, like, throwing around millions of dollars opening stores and, like, hey, let's do this. And If I say it, it just happens. I mean, not that instantly, but. And I'm at home. I'm like, go to bed. They're like, no, okay.
- [78:56]
B
Really?
- [78:57]
A
Pretty much. I mean, really. Just like, they're being kids and we've got no rapport. Like, no real rapport. I haven't been running the house. Gail's been doing it all. And then Gail starts showing signs that, like, something's off and I can't see it because I'm now starting to suffer because I'm starting to realize, like, I'm not doing okay. Like, I'm frustrated. And she's. She's pointing out to me where I'm lacking. And I do not like it. I do not like this criticism. Thankfully, a spiritual mentor came into my life at that time, and I realized, okay, I gotta, like, double down here because I got some growth to do. Like, I can't see my kids or my wife. And what I can say now is I missed clear signs early that Gail wasn't well. She ended up getting having Lyme's disease. We didn't catch it until three years later, and I couldn't see it. And she was saying, like, I need help. And I just thought she was going through a crisis like me. And so I own that part of it. However, I also don't regret anything because, I mean, I regret her suffering. But as a result of all of that, hell, I got what I needed, which was like, all of these trials and tribulations. And this is where I'm like, I think everything ultimately happens for our benefit. And I believe she will see this for her. Like, she still struggles with it, but it was tough, dude. It was really tough because she basically then was struggling. She was in pain, fatigued. She was in bed a lot. And I didn't understand. So I'm angry, I'm frustrated. I don't understand what's happening. And, dude, yeah, I was just pissed off. I was just pissed off at myself because I couldn't. I couldn't freaking see anybody. The best way I can describe it is I know I can't see the other people, meaning I can't see their pain and suffering. I can't see the consequences of my actions until afterwards. And then it's there and it's so clear. How the hell am I ever going to figure this out? And we were talking about this yesterday time. And so I kept working out that muscle. I kept going, being like, show me. Show me what I'm not seeing. And. And I had this moment. This, like, Very intense moment where I was walking down the hallway, and all of the sudden, the best way I can describe it is like from the back of me, something came over me as warm. This warm, warm feeling. And it's like a veil got lifted. And for the first time in my life, I could see Gail. I could see my kids. She was actually doing homework with Audrey in the office. And I just started bawling my eyes out. Dude. It was the. It was so crazy. I was like, oh, my gosh. This is what it means to see. I saw this incredible love between a mother and her daughter. I saw the pain that Gail had been trying to tell me she was in. I saw my daughter's pain. I saw all the kids. I saw how they saw me. And I was like, whoa. Like, game changer moment. And then it just, like, slowly dissipated. But then it would come again and again and again, and I could never control it. It would just come on me, and all of a sudden I could see the other person.
- [82:10]
B
You should choose better words when you describe that.
- [82:15]
A
It would happen to me.
- [82:17]
B
It would arrive.
- [82:17]
A
It would arrive. Yeah, yeah, they would arrive. Just saying, thank you for lightening the moment.
- [82:24]
B
Yes, of course.
- [82:25]
A
There you are. There you are in your best.
- [82:27]
B
I am an absolute monkey with a microphone. And as soon as you said that, I mean, my head goes only one place. What is this? Do you have a homeless dude jacking off on you in the ceiling space? Like.
- [82:40]
A
Oh, thank you for that.
- [82:41]
B
Your words, not mine. I'm just saying.
- [82:43]
A
Yeah, thank you.
- [82:44]
B
How. When you were at your lowest, how long did it take you to get there? How long did that journey, do you think take?
- [82:51]
A
So in 2021, it was May. This started, like, the trials started at the end of 2020.
- [82:57]
B
Okay.
- [82:58]
A
So by May was the first time I thought about suicide. And it was crazy.
- [83:02]
B
Do you mean the concept?
- [83:04]
A
No, Like, I really thought, like, how I'd do this and that is. And I knew it was different.
- [83:08]
B
Way higher risk ratio or profile. You mean all. So I'm assuming up until your point in that life, everybody, I guess, probably either knows somebody hears about. So you are aware of what suicide is, but you're talking about for the first time. You're walking your step yourself through a step by step.
- [83:25]
A
First time by far, like, I had never even considered it just popped in your head. I used to think it was crazy. Like, how could anybody even consider. And then there I was, and I filmed it. I filmed myself because it was such a profound moment. I remember just. I was like, I need to Record this, because this is where I'm at right now. Like, whoa. And I was. Yeah, I actually thought about how I take my life. And so I recorded myself saying, like, tonight. And I forget when it was in May, I thought about killing myself. Like, really thought about it. And I remember just telling myself on camera, like, this is where you're at right now, dude. Because I wanted to take stock of it because I didn't want to go, but I was like, whoa.
- [84:09]
B
Did you consider in that moment, sharing that with anybody? Not the video itself, but the thoughts?
- [84:14]
A
No. I did later, though, because there were some people who came around to help me, and I think this is probably pretty common. Anybody who ends up getting out of one of these situations, typically there's somebody or some people who come along and help.
- [84:29]
B
Did they know that they were helping or was it.
- [84:31]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I had literally what I consider an angel come. But it wasn't during that. Like, that time was in Annapolis. And I would. I would face those same thoughts two more times in those five years. And I was like, whoa, dude. Like, if I'm going through this, there's got to be a lot of guys who are going through this who have left their jobs. And. But I didn't have it figured out. So I was like. I mean, I was helping. Really Nobody at the time. But there was one thing that happened to me that really helped besides a spiritual mentor. That moment where I could see that helped. And a guy from China who I still help, who I talk to every week, reached out to me for my help in business. So at this time, like, dude, I feel like a piece of shit. I can do nothing, right? Like, I'm not a good husband. I'm a terrible father. I have no job.
- [85:25]
B
Like, sounds like me on a Thursday. You're describing my average Thursday.
- [85:32]
A
Oh, my God. I love you.
- [85:36]
B
Welcome to the club. We meet on Friday morning.
- [85:38]
A
I can't wait to be there. I. Please, please. Yeah. So I. So I'm. So I'm a piece of. To myself is what I think. And this guy calls me and he's like, from. He remembers me from China because I worked with him. His CrossFit gym. This is Max. And he wants me to help advise him. And I'm. At the time. It's almost like one of those moments, like, where am I right now?
- [85:59]
B
Yeah.
- [86:00]
A
Did I even live that life?
- [86:01]
B
Yeah. And do I have anything to offer? Like, what are you even doing wasting your time talking to me? And then you realize you're the one saying those things. To yourself. Nobody else is using those words.
- [86:09]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I didn't pick that up that quickly, so. Because at that point, I ditched my whole identity. There was a point where I had to be willing to say, like, that whole life is done. I have, like, I. If I'm going to make it through this, I've got to take everything I've learned, all that energy, all that focus I used to have, and invested in family and faith, like, or else I'm not going to make it. Because I. I could see there was, like, there was no going back to work at that point even. And Gail was like, hey, when are you going to work? I had, like, there was no way. I mean, I couldn't freaking do anything. I was. It was. It's hard to explain to people, and I've helped people since who have been in similar situations, and they say the same thing, like, I can't get a job. And I'm like, dude, just work at McDonald's because they, like, no money. And I understand. Because you just. You cannot get out of your head. It's, like, so dark.
- [87:00]
B
That is probably the most effective prison that there ever has been.
- [87:04]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [87:05]
B
Prison of your own mind.
- [87:06]
A
Yeah.
- [87:06]
B
And you don't realize you're the warden with the key.
- [87:09]
A
Yep. Amen, brother.
- [87:10]
B
It's, like, in your hand. Like, I can't open this door. Nobody can let go.
- [87:15]
A
Yeah. What are these things? Yeah. Yeah. Well. And this. This is actually where that faith conversation. We'll come back to it, but where I realized I didn't know then, but I was looking for God to do all the work. And what I didn't realize is I had the key.
- [87:32]
B
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- [89:29]
A
I held that freaking key.
- [89:31]
B
Why did you think up until that point that it was God that would do the work?
- [89:34]
A
Well, my, my belief at the time and, and still this is there' paradox here. So bear with me because the paradox I've. What I've found in my life so far is the only truth is in the paradox. To stand in that place between two opposing truths is the only place I think there's some absolute, maybe some absolute truth because you have to accept both and that is freaking hard. And in this case I am under the impression at that time God is sovereign, which means God is in control of everything.
- [90:07]
B
I've always heard it described as God gave God. And again, I'm not a religious person so this is about to be just a completely murdered description of religion. Every Religion that God, let's say God might have created the table, but he gave humans the free will to make the decisions.
- [90:24]
A
Yeah, not.
- [90:25]
B
I had never really heard of the sovereignty where he is. It's like a grand design. It was like you have the choices and you can make them. It's what they. It's kind of on you.
- [90:34]
A
It's a bit of a paradox because in, in this, in this understanding God, the word sovereignty means all powerful, basically all in control. Yet we have free will. Yeah, but it's like it's the paradox because you have free will within a predestined design because he knows the end from the beginning. And this is where like we'll mess with your head because the belief is he, he knows the end from the beginning and within that he's sovereign. You have free will. Right. You still have choice, but it's kind of like already known what you're tired.
- [91:04]
C
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- [91:35]
A
And there's comfort. There's comfort here. The comfort is I don't, I don't have. I can believe like it's going to be okay. And I still believe that. Like, I believe, like coming into this podcast, this is meaningless. So I don't have to be nervous. But at the same time, it's the most meaningful thing I'll ever do.
- [91:52]
B
No, it's definitely not true. I can give you with 100% certain, but that last one is false.
- [91:58]
A
Yeah, well, well, so, so in that place for me, I didn't know I had made my own prison. And a bit of it I did. But like when you're feeling like such a piece of, like, it's hard to get out of it. So this guy from China calls and says can, can I help him? And I accept it. And this was a huge lifeline. So I start coaching him even though I don't think I'm ready to. But all of a sudden all of this knowledge comes back like, oh, I guess this guy did run Asia and do a whole bunch I guess he knows something because it's being really well received. And he only had two weeks left in his business Runway of capital. Yeah, dude. Yeah, it was.
- [92:39]
B
You want to talk about probably not resting well at night?
- [92:43]
A
Yeah.
- [92:43]
B
Sleep score might be a little low.
- [92:45]
A
Yeah. So right before, right before that call, I experienced peace for the first time in my life. It was a crazy. Like I was on my hands and knees before I was. Shit, I was shaking. I had been out of the game at that point for so long. Like, I just didn't think I had anything to offer. I was nervous to have a one on one call with a guy who, like, I was the big boss in Reebok in Asia and he owned this like gym chain in China and we worked together. But like, for me to be nervous was so weird, but I was. And so I was on my hands and knees and I was for the first time in prayer going. I was seeking God's presence, which is really just like. I wasn't asking for anything besides like, just please be here because I'm so uncomfortable. And there was like this moment where everything stopped and my body relaxed. And I'm sure you know this feeling of like full relaxation. No, dude.
- [93:39]
B
You got a white knuckle life, dude.
- [93:40]
A
It is unbelievable. I mean like, like in. In the way I felt it most was right here in my core. Like right on. On my sacral. And it was like total relaxation. And it just like hit me and I was, whoa. And then the word kind of passed through my mind of peace. And I knew. You just have this knowing in these moments. I'm experiencing peace. This is what peace feels like. And I stood up for the call and I didn't. The way I can best describe it is I didn't exist in that moment. Like, it was just him, the only person that was there. Like, even right now, I'm still here. Every once in a while I like feel myself and I see you. But in that moment, I could only see him. And I had this incredible call with him and he only had two weeks and I was so calm and I basically went through the exercise with him. Like, do you know peace? Like, I was like starting. It just came out of me and I started. Little does he know I just experienced it. But I saw this guy who. Nobody has to know that. Yeah, except for them. So I saw this guy who had never relaxed. And then I asked him to tell me his life story.
- [94:44]
B
This guy's like, hey, dude, I need business help.
- [94:46]
A
Yeah, right. He's like, I have two weeks And I'm. Tell me your life story. And he's like. And I, I start to see patterns of behavior of similar situations that have gotten him into the same thing because he had done now multiple businesses. And I realized like, this guy needs to just like let go for a second and see the pattern and be willing to completely fail right now. Because what seemed to have gotten him there was, he was like white knuckling every time. And, and he's, he was burning bridges and burning people's money. And in this case, I realized like my first question base was like, are you okay if this doesn't work? Like, what are you going to do in two weeks if there's no money? And so I had no strategy for him. But we did multiple calls and after two calls, he was like tracking and he had come to terms with, okay, if I have to close this down, like, I can live with this. And he also saw his patterns. And so from that place there's clarity. Now he's like, not trying to hold on just for the sake of it and all those. And now we start building a plan.
- [95:52]
B
Yeah.
- [95:53]
A
And the guy's got, I don't know, at least a year of Runway now. He grew his to 36 gyms, his 100x, his business or 100%. Sorry, 100%. His growth, his business, 2x 2x. Thank you. And it wasn't some like savvy thing. It was like literally teaching him about finding peace, letting go. Like all these things that I was. But I was like, ill equipped, I thought. And what started to happen to me is by helping somebody else, I started to understand what I was going through and it started to heal me, it started to grow me. And this is like, I mean, you hear this all the time. People who are on some path and they think there's people not ready to help somebody else, like, freaking no way. And if they're willing to try, somebody will come in. If they're open to it, somebody will come in. And it's the best way to grow. And so I started having calls with him, but it was still ugly. We moved to Virginia and it got a little better. Like, I started growing because I started helping more people. Like three more CEOs came to me. People just started coming to me. It was very odd, honestly. Like, I still don't know how some of them found me, but I would just get like a note from somebody like, hey, can you help? And I was doing it for free because I was like, I, I. My schedule, I was mainly raising the Kids at that point, because Gail was, like, really struggling. Sometimes she would leave for like three to five months of just. She was suffering. And so I just was focusing the kids. I couldn't charge somebody anything because I never knew when I'd be available. And so I started helping these guys. And then my brother in law, so my younger brother in law, who had such a rough run, multiple, like, dark spells of his life, suicide attempts, alcoholism, like, very, very rough. He showed up one. I'll never forget it, dude. He said, can I come visit? He lived an hour and 45 minutes away. He showed up at the house, says, I just want to come and see if I can, you know, say hi and see you guys. I had been helping him throughout a lot of his life. I'd given him a car, I'd given him computers and maybe even money at one time because he was struggling so much. And he showed up and he said, how are you doing? And I looked at him and I said, I'm not okay. And he looked me in the eye and he said, I will be here as many times as you need me. As long as you need me. You're not alone. And I was like, what? And he did. For years. He didn't. He was not working at the time. He had been healing. So I was his Max. And he started helping me. And he was still healing. But this guy was full of freaking wisdom. And it was the most humbling experience of my life. He was teaching me about parenting. He has no children, but I recognized the wisdom. It was, like, odd. I would be calling him sometimes for advice on how to parent. Dude. And he was showing me, like, how to build systems in my house for my kids because I was so pissed at my kids for, like, making messes in the room. And he's like, why don't you put trash cans in their room and make a policy where they have to bring their trash down once a week? And I was like, that's smart. Like, he started teaching me what I knew how to do in business, but I didn't know how to do in a house. And I remember there were many times where I was so freaking frustrated because I felt so humiliated. There's this guy who hasn't done what I've done in the world who was so dark and broken. And he's telling. He's calling me out on my shit. He's helping me in every way, but he's also, like, calling me out. And I know I've got to take it on the chin because this is like, this is my angel. And it was freaking humiliating at first. And then I started. Then I started letting go of my ego and realized, like, this is the greatest gift ever. I literally have somebody who comes to my house, like, twice a week, helps me with my kids, helps me with chores, goes to the grocery store every week for me, like, incredible. And, like, loving on me, hugging me, like, looking in the eye, saying, I love you, man. I was like, what? And then. And he's not a believer, so this is one of my first times where I was like, what is happening? He didn't believe in Christianity. He grew up in it. But then he had, like. He was like, no, because he had a lot of experience. He also had his own near death experience, and he didn't see anything. Nothing happened. And he's like, basically his. And I was always, like, trying to talk to him about God and Jesus, and he'd just be, like, graceful with me. Chad, you can believe what you want to believe. I don't believe that crap. And while you guys are all talking about all this, I'm walking in what Jesus said for you guys to do. So when you start walking in it.
- [100:43]
B
Suck on that one. Yeah, dude.
- [100:44]
A
I was like, oh, he did. I mean, he walked in love. He showed me true love for the first time in my life that I can recall. Like, somebody who unconditionally loved me and my family and his sister with note, no strings attached. It was crazy, dude. Like, he was just there whenever I needed him. And, like, in the way that I've heard you talk about this, like, he was a friend who's like, you're freaking out of your mind, dude. You're. You've lost your. Like, the. What you think happened there is just not true at all.
- [101:16]
B
Yeah, you have to have those people.
- [101:18]
A
Wow.
- [101:18]
B
If you're surrounded by an echo chamber, you're in a bad, bad spot.
- [101:22]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So he. He. He was that. And then. And then I meet this guy. This is. This is a big part of this recovery for me and growth. I meet this father. I'm coaching Noah's lacrosse team at the time. And we're at the end of your party, and there's this father there. His name's Scott. And he doesn't look so hot. He's kind of, like, shaky. He's got a drink in his hand. And I sit. I get the sense, like, I need to talk to this guy. So I sit down to talk to him, and he starts telling me about all this pain, like he's going through a divorce. And Then he starts talking about suicide. And I had already been facing it, and I remember looking at him, I looked him in the eye and said, you're welcome to try, but God's in control. So you might be the guy that has the bullet go through and like, Mrs. And that's gonna suck, but go ahead. I remember just not being afraid of it at all. But before, right before that, he was asking me, hey, have you ever been here before? And I said, no. And he said, why? I said, well, it was the first time I told anybody, anybody that my wife was sick. Years I hid this thing. Dude, shows you a lot. Like, I wouldn't tell anybody what was really going on at home. And I said, actually, my wife's sick, so I take care of the five kids and I don't get out much. And he jumped up and he wanted to pray for me. And I was like, whoa. We're like, at this lacrosse event. I was like, what, this guy a believer? Well, that same guy then starts talking about suicide. And I realize I'm supposed to walk with this guy and. And July 4th is like that weekend. And I invite him to July 4th with us, with our family. Gail's out of the picture. She's at her parents house suffering. And I remember after the fireworks, driving to the house and knowing this guy had nowhere to go. He was homeless. Like, he had a car, but he had nowhere to go. And I. And I had this like, urge to ask him, I said, so, where are you going, man? He's like, oh, I'm just, you know, I'm just going. I got my car. And I'm like, I'm picking up all the signs. I said, now where you. Where are you gonna. Where are you gonna sleep tonight?
- [103:33]
B
Where are you gonna take this car?
- [103:34]
A
Yeah. And he's like making up. And I said, scott, do you have anywhere to stay tonight? And then he looks at me, he's like, yeah, my car. And I said, give me a second. I stepped out of the car, kids had already gone in the house. And I had that moment where like, shit, if I don't help this guy, I don't think anybody's gonna help him. And how the hell am I gonna help this guy? Like, I'm alone with five kids and I don't even know him. Like, he cannot come in the house. And I had a little shed out back. So I went back and I said, you're sleeping in my shed tonight, dude. And he's like, no, no. He's this very prideful moment, like, no, And I'm like, you're sleeping in my fricking shed. I'm going to get the blankets right now. You're not sleeping in your car. And he, and he, he saw my seriousness I guess and he, he slept in my shed. And I said, you're staying in here until you figure your shit out. And I said, you just can't come in the house because I got five kids and I don't really know you. So if you're going to use the bathroom you got to tell me in advance. We had this like system. Well, Aaron, my brother in law who's helping me comes up the next day for his Sunday visit, I think it was a Sunday. And I got this guy in the shed and I'm sitting there with Aaron and Aaron's like a, he's been on me about like taking care of my body. Like because at one point I wasn't taking care of my body and my back was screwed up. And he's like, who's your backup plan buddy? Don't you think maybe you should take. Go to the doctor? I'm like, don't need to.
- [105:03]
B
I got a guy in the shed.
- [105:05]
A
So he comes and I, and I, and I'm nervous, I'm a little nervous to tell him because I know he's probably going to have his way with me. And I say air. So there's this guy Scott who's really struggling and he's in my shed and dude, he looks at me and he literally I think it was something like what the fuck are you doing? And literally like what kind of IRResponse? You've got five kids and a sick wife and you're taking in some stray off the road like what the hell are you thinking? And I cried. I just looked at him and I said, Aaron, if I don't help this guy like you help me, nobody's going to help him. And Scott was walking up from the shed and Aaron looked at me and he's like one of those guys who can see you, see you. And he just looked at me and he said I got this, jumped off the bench, went and gave Scott a hug and it's like, hey Scott, come with me. Took him out, bought him like just started helping Scott right away. He's like, if you tell me somebody's important to you, then they're important to me. And he went out and bought him a razor. Like helped like Aaron's like this amazing problem solver and started helping me take care of Scott. And Scott who I've Been walking with now for, gosh, like two years. I mean, he's 56. And I've watched this guy make a huge transformation. It's not over. It's like never over.
- [106:31]
B
Is he still in the shed?
- [106:32]
A
He's not in the shed.
- [106:33]
B
How long did he stay there?
- [106:34]
A
He didn't. He didn't stay there very long. He ended up getting a job. And I've been basically working on rewiring his mind. The same thing that's happening to me. And he's. He posts on TikTok. He's got like, I don't know, 3,000 followers on TikTok, and he posts these motivational things like, every day. And it's incredible, dude, to see that and, like, see where he was and know that I had no idea what the hell I was doing. But. But the other thing I realized in that process was like, wow, it takes a lot to help somebody. This is one guy. And it took quite a bit from me, but it also gave me life that I walked with for years. And I realized how broken our system and our people are because I see this guy on the street all the time. Guys like him, girls like him, and realize, like, money doesn't help these people. It's like the worst thing for them because they're going to go buy some alcohol. They need love, and that love in each case looks different. This guy needed somebody, like, with him a lot. And that's like. Like, who's doing that? It's not easy job, but it was pretty inspiring because I realized, like, wow, we've got a long way to go until we're like, really helping people out of poverty. These are not policy changes. This is like, people have to change. Like, people's mindset has to change. And it not. It's not easy to realize, like, do you want to help somebody? You can't just, like, buy them a meal.
- [108:01]
B
Yeah. How big was the shed?
- [108:06]
A
It's tiny. It was summertime and it was freaking hot. And I tried to buy this little air conditioner and it sucked. And I felt so bad, dude. But I was like, I was just barely hanging on, honestly. So Aaron helped me a little bit. How big was the shed?
- [108:25]
B
So where do you land on faith now?
- [108:29]
A
Well, I still. I mean, the word faith is. The definition of faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see, which I believe strongly in. And this idea is basically being sure of what I hope for is whatever is deep in my heart, not in my head, because my head will lead Me astray every time. But whatever's in here that says this is important or this, this is good, that's what I hope for. I always will try to find that thing, not some like million dollars. And then I will be certain of what I do not see, which is I have a level of certainty. As crazy as that might sound, I have a high level of certainty that what I don't see is working for my benefit always to make happen what I am sure of, which is the definition of faith. The question is, do I believe that it is only God or only Jesus? The answer is I believe that God is doing it. And I believe Jesus was who he said he was and existed. The problem, not the problem, the paradox I'm having is it seems to me from my digging that Jesus showed us the only way, which therefore means Jesus was the only way, but not in the way I used to think. Meaning Jesus showed us the path to enlightenment, I believe, and the full path of death and even rebirth. Never do I recall Jesus saying, worship me and make me. Make me a religion. What I heard Jesus say and what I watch my cousin, my brother in law, Aaron do is walk like me, talk like me, follow me, do as I do, help the homeless, help the sick, walk in love, that then you will enter the kingdom of God. I don't subscribe to some proclamation. Jesus is my Lord and Savior and therefore I go to heaven. I believe that as somebody who walks in a state of love will be just fine. I actually believe everybody will be just fine. As absurd as that might sound, I believe that there is incarnation. Multiple incarnations. Yeah. This is also what messed me up, because it's not in the Bible.
- [111:00]
B
Which one are you on? Were you a pharaoh?
- [111:03]
A
I know, I don't know. I think I might have been Albert. You know, in the.
- [111:08]
B
All these incarnation stories, they're like, oh, I can see it. You were a queen.
- [111:12]
A
Yes, they're awesome. Royalty.
- [111:14]
B
You were a prince in a far off land and you had many slaves that you wrote in. Like, who is the dude who was the fucking shoe cobbler? Like, you know, oh, you know what your job was before sanitation? You carried buckets of human fecal matter down to the river and you hawked it in. I'm not hearing a lot of those stories.
- [111:33]
A
There definitely exist. They definitely exist.
- [111:35]
B
I mean, that person existed. I'm not hearing anybody who remembers being reincarnation. No, it's always you. Skip that one. And like, oh, I was a God amongst gods on Saturn's fifth ring.
- [111:45]
A
Like, what I have I have. I had. Weird things started to happen to me when I had this, like, mystical experience is the best way I can explain it, where I was taken somewhere. And we have all these words we use and some of them I hate. I don't hate the strong word. Some of them I dislike because they can so easily turn people off because we say all this spiritual stuff. My belief is like, there's another reality just like this somewhere else. And I don't know where that place is right now, always.
- [112:16]
B
Have you ever had an mri?
- [112:18]
A
Yes.
- [112:19]
B
On your head.
- [112:20]
A
I'm doing great. Perfect up there.
- [112:22]
B
Like brain imaging, Lots of it. All right.
- [112:24]
A
Yeah, actually, I have had brain imagery. I'm good.
- [112:26]
B
There's no gray spots. I'm just checking it.
- [112:28]
A
Maybe a few. Maybe a few. I did some drugs when I was.
- [112:32]
B
Just checking all the boxes here. So you believe there's a parallel? Like we're doing this somewhere else or two other people are having a podcast right now, but on.
- [112:40]
A
Oh, I don't, I don't. I don't know. I don't know about that. But I know that like, I know I went somewhere that was more real than here. When you're there and you. And you know, it's just this weird thing. And if you go. Go research near death experiences, I don't know how much you've done in that, but I went deep down that rabbit hole, deep down that rabbit hole because I had something similar to that. Even though I didn't die, it wasn't like a catastrophic thing. I went somewhere and I was like, downloaded a whole bunch of stuff and it was. It was so intense. I was wide awake when it happened and I was in another place. A whole bunch of things were shown to me and happened. And then all of a sudden I'm back in my body and I'm like frantically getting my phone to. To write down everything that just happened. And it's like, I don't know what you do with that besides, like, either go crazy, which a lot of people do, because they don't talk about it, or like, realize that shit just happened.
- [113:31]
B
Like, just because you experienced it doesn't mean that it's real.
- [113:36]
A
I thought, I thought that's what it experience in your.
- [113:39]
B
I mean, in. What do you daydream?
- [113:42]
A
This was not a daydream. I know, but I'm saying, though, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [113:45]
B
I daydream. I talk to myself. I have vivid dreams. It doesn't mean that I experience them. I experienced the vividness. Here's a good example. Mike Glover, good friend of mine, was going in for a surgery, got pushed a little bit too much ketamine, spit him through the K hole. He said he was born, lived an entire life and died of old age. Came out of the k hole in 15 minutes had passed. He said he still thinks about it today, I believe and ponders it because it was as if it happened. And we're talking like an 80 year lifespan that occurred in 15.
- [114:20]
A
Yeah, there you go. And this happens to a lot of.
- [114:23]
B
People, but is that real or is that the interaction of chemicals with your brain, a distortion of time? And I don't have an answer to this.
- [114:31]
A
Well, if you go down the rabbit hole like I did ask you, what.
- [114:34]
B
Did you find at the rabbit hole of the near death experience?
- [114:36]
A
It's amazing. There's such an array of experiences. But the consistency is in what everybody experiences. And the same as I experience, the consistency is like there are. There's a common theme of what people experience when they go to this other place. Some people are on drugs, some people are totally sober, some people like died. You know, some people, I mean I was just laying in bed in a hotel with my five kids there, lights turned off and I just laid back my head and I said, show me what I am not seeing. And like that I am just, I'm in this place. There's this white ark. It's like angels. This is best way I could describe it. Like white beings everywhere.
- [115:17]
B
That's super racist.
- [115:18]
A
But I.
- [115:20]
B
Where's the DEI in the dream?
- [115:23]
A
Light beings. I said light beings.
- [115:26]
B
They said white beings.
- [115:27]
A
Light beings. And. And then I see myself as this light that's emanating everywhere. And all I can explain is like there's no conversation, but you just know, like you just know everything.
- [115:43]
B
Is that what's similar in people's near death experiences?
- [115:45]
A
There's. There's very little. If there's a conversation, it's a thought that's immediately answered. And the feeling is just like abundance of a love and peace and joy. Like you just feel this.
- [115:57]
B
I feel like that might be your body releasing chemicals to make your transition from life to death easier.
- [116:02]
A
Because what about when you're not dying? Like I'm lying in my bed or somebody else is not dying.
- [116:06]
B
You're just considered. You're crazy.
- [116:09]
A
Definitely. Definitely.
- [116:10]
B
Insanity would be a potential explanation here. I'm not a doctor, obviously, and the near death experience thing is interesting to me.
- [116:20]
A
It's fascinating.
- [116:21]
B
I can see, I can see a complete realm where what you're talking about is absolutely the case where you're transitioning to another plane. But I can also see a realm where your body functions off the electricity that it creates and it's shutting itself off so it releases hormones and, you know, secretes things into your body so you feel less pain, you become more. I can see both.
- [116:43]
A
I think this is like the. Another one of these paradoxes. Like, I know, like I used to say, this. This isn't real.
- [116:49]
B
Yeah.
- [116:50]
A
Because I realized that was real. Let's. Most people come back and they. And a lot of people are very depressed afterwards because this is so much different. This feels like. It feels dead. There's like this weird hum here up there when you're. Wherever that is, that sucks. Why is it so shitty here? I think it's by design. Because I think we all right. What I was shown when I went there, like this, like, download that made it really hard for me, my faith. Because I just saw a whole bunch of white people. All these white people. I'm like, I thought it was all black people. What the hell? I thought Jesus was black, man. I was, like, imprinted on. One is that I was this spirit, this light being that got split up into two and have been tumbling through lifetimes looking for my match, which I had found. Which I was shown that I had found.
- [117:47]
B
That person matches in another human.
- [117:49]
A
Another human. Yeah. So part of the end of the story that I haven't been telling about is that we're. I'm going through a divorce, which is difficult, but it has been a mutual decision. In fact, Gail. Gail asked for it. And I totally understand because she's like, I don't think I'm ever going to be well if I stay in this relationship like this. Like, something's got to change. And I don't think you're ever going to be free.
- [118:14]
B
God, it's a hard place to come to.
- [118:15]
A
Yeah. And she. I give her a lot of credit because I couldn't see it. And I actually resisted the crap out of it. And I had like, a panic attack when it first happened because I was like, I had no. I didn't see it coming. And she's got good vision. That girl's got amazing intuition. And my whole life with her, she's, like, called things that happen over and over. And I remember looking in her eyes and I realized, like, she's. She's no. Like, she means this. And that's what was so hard for me. It's like, whoa, this is not just like one of those kind of arguments. Like, she's Clear.
- [118:50]
B
Yeah. This isn't like an emotionally driven comment that could be brushed off later.
- [118:54]
A
Yeah. And what I didn't expect to happen, I didn't expect it to meet somebody quickly. And I did. And that was. That was actually really messed up because.
- [119:02]
B
As you were tumbling through space and time.
- [119:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that. That made it really. That made it more complicated than it needed to be. And that's. That. That if there's any difficulty in it, it's like that element to. It is hard. And. And I. I actually feel terrible about it in a way because I can understand how shitty it would be on the other side.
- [119:22]
B
But you're not doing it with the.
- [119:23]
A
Intent to hurt her. No. And it's after. It was after. Yeah, after the decision, but very shortly after. And, like, you can't. I don't know how to. You don't control these things. Like, had I not had that mystical experience, I wouldn't be saying this. I had that experience very shortly after I met this person and I was shown you're the same, and you guys split. And I was shown that I've been in many lifetimes, which I had already known previously, but I didn't accept it because it seemed like. Like that's not in the Bible. I gotta squash this. I've had weird visions of being burned, like, terrible. And I just always pushed them away. And this started to make more sense. I was also. So I was shown there was many.
- [120:07]
B
Lifetimes made more sense to that.
- [120:09]
A
Yeah.
- [120:09]
B
Hey, buddy. I have dreams about being an astronaut. It doesn't mean I've been to space.
- [120:12]
A
The difference is there. There's like. There's a clear difference. So the only way I can explain it is, like, it's so obvious. It's. It's. There's just no question. It's not a dream. Like, you know what a dream. Yeah, you. Too bad. You should have a lot of questions. But, you know. You know, like, when you're daydreaming, like when you have one of these, it's just like. It's unquestionable. It's.
- [120:31]
B
I haven't had that experience, so I. I can't articulate it. I can't. I can't speak with any level of authority about it.
- [120:37]
A
Well, it sounds like Mike can.
- [120:40]
B
No, Mike had too much ketamine.
- [120:43]
A
But. But for him, it was very real.
- [120:46]
B
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it was based in reality.
- [120:50]
A
Sure. I would. I would urge you. Go down the rabbit hole. Go check. There's two things I would urge anybody to do before they judge this even.
- [120:59]
B
If I'm not judging or before they decide.
- [121:02]
A
Before they decide. Yeah, because we also. One of the things that happens is it's like midlife or sorry after life review which was shown to me earlier when I had one of these other experiences where it just happened to me and I was in this state and I was shown that what we see when we go to the other side is we won. We see the impact we had that we didn't know we had. So it's like the person at the coffee shop where you bumped into it did something kind for and it like.
- [121:29]
C
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- [122:00]
A
Fact, we get shown that we also see all the moments we missed and we caused pain to others that we were not aware of. And I was shown a whole bunch of them and it hurt like hell. I was literally in my, in my hallway sober. All of a sudden this happened and I'm being shown all these things and I was shown like for my kids. I was showing my daughter Audrey sitting on and I was sitting on her bed. It had happened the day before and she was trying to show me her art and I was distracted and because I was normally under the mindset like the big moments matter. Be at the game, you know, Be at the wedding. And what I was shown was like those don't really matter. What matters is like the little moments in between the big moments. Those are where love exists because it takes you. It takes you separating from yourself, seeing the other person and then loving them, which means seeing them. And when you see them, you know exactly what to do. You know how to love.
- [122:59]
B
You know what's tough about that though? Kids artwork sucks. Any parent out here knows what I'm saying. Oh, it's amazing. It's not. Yeah, this looks like a seven year old chicken scratch. I'm gonna save it forever. Yeah, I'm gonna put it in a folder. It'll be on the fridge. But objectively, you're not using the Rule of thirds. This is trash. Your composure sucks.
- [123:28]
A
Oh, my gosh. But. But if you actually can see them.
- [123:32]
B
Yeah, it's not about the art. It's about.
- [123:34]
A
It's incredible. Things come, and I'm not. Not able to be in that state all the time, but when you can see them, dude, it's like a whole nother state of being. And I would love to live there, but I'm convinced if I live there, I'd literally be walking around just bawling my eyes out because I can see people's pain. And that's not very fun when you actually see, like, somebody's real pain, like, the pain that they hide. Because that's what I believe I was shown. It's just like tears and tears and tears, which I'm grateful for. So I take back with me is, like, the reality of how much pain most people are actually in. And. And you don't see it. And so, like, I can very much excuse their actions because what the hell do I know? And I know how much pain I was in. So anyways, the. The point is, I was shown a bunch of stuff that was contradictory to my faith. And so I started digging down other rabbit holes and I just realized, whoa, there are. There seem to be a lot of ways to the truth, to God, to our Creator, to the Spirit. People call this all different names. And there are. There seem to be many ways there. There's not just one way. Although the paradox is Jesus showed us the way, so that's true while also being true. There's not just one way. And that's a really messed up hard paradox. And if you're devout Christian, this is not easy to accept because a devout.
- [125:06]
B
Christian says, yeah, but it goes against the orthodoxy, essentially.
- [125:10]
A
Yeah. Says, says. Jesus is Lord and Savior. You must proclaim his name. When you do, you are saved. Repent for your sins, Believe, and you will go to heaven, if not even.
- [125:23]
B
On your deathbed, if you do that.
- [125:25]
A
Right at the last minute and I. I call, I say, you're judged by your heart. And nobody can judge the heart but God or whoever that is that seemed to design this. So who am I to judge anybody whether they're going to so so and so. So hell or heaven or wherever these places are, who am I to judge? And what I was shown was, yeah, like, wow, there's a lot of things that are incongruent with my previous belief system. So I've got to hold this paradox. And there's a lot of peace in the paradox, because in that Place like, you can accept a lot of things and there's peace there.
- [126:05]
B
Yeah.
- [126:06]
A
Wow.
- [126:13]
B
I mean, I get it. I get why it's enticing. So. I mean, it's a lot to think about.
- [126:21]
A
Oh, there's. There's. There's so much I just want to.
- [126:24]
B
Hear about your previous lives.
- [126:27]
A
I. I had some memory that I was a Asian woman. I swear, man.
- [126:32]
B
What in the actual. Is wrong with you?
- [126:34]
A
Here's. I'm. I'm going to tell you something. You're going to love this.
- [126:37]
B
Were you a concubine?
- [126:38]
A
We each seemed to. I don't know. Actually. No, I was dancing.
- [126:43]
B
That's part of the deal.
- [126:43]
A
Yeah. So one of the things I learned towards the end of this journey was like, I started having these urges to dance and I felt like a complete.
- [126:54]
B
Listen, I'm gonna put this on the Internet.
- [126:56]
A
Yes.
- [126:56]
B
Okay.
- [126:56]
A
So, you know, I don't even know what's happening right now. I blacked out. I'm very. Every once in a while, I remember where I am and it's terrifying. I don't know what I'm saying.
- [127:07]
B
There's nothing terrifying about being authentic and being yourself. I think people gravitate towards that. I think we have a pretty good in embedded filter, but some people are better at tricking than others.
- [127:24]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah.
- [127:30]
B
How did you fall into. Okay, because when I.
- [127:33]
A
You don't want to hear about dancing. Ask me the question. I'm kidding. Go.
- [127:38]
B
I mean, if you want to talk about dancing.
- [127:40]
A
I do. I do, actually, at some point, because I think a lot of men need to hear some of this stuff.
- [127:45]
B
Hear what? That you had a dream about dancing.
- [127:48]
A
Ask me a question, I'll come back to it.
- [127:50]
B
No. What. Tell me about the dance. What type. Is it choreographed?
- [127:54]
A
It's not. It's not dancing as. As much as what I have learned is we each. And people know this. We each have. Have masculine and feminine energies in us. Of course we have this. Right. A lot of men, including myself, I was raised by a man's man. I had tucked these things away. This is part of the reason I was closed off to my heart for so long is I had tucked away a whole part of me because it seemed like either. Either I'm gay if I let that out, or I'm weak. And one of the things I started having.
- [128:28]
B
What did you want to let out? Hold on here. Let's preface this.
- [128:31]
A
This is what I'm saying. I started having these urges, like dance.
- [128:33]
B
I'm like, what is that? That's not Gay.
- [128:35]
A
Okay, but I'm. When for me, it's, like, very uncomfortable. I'm by myself.
- [128:39]
B
If you're early in the morning holding another dude's wiener, that's gay.
- [128:43]
A
Yeah, but this is just like, Enter. I think each. Each of us has. And each of us is conditioned differently. Has. Has this energy in us that wants to express itself. That's feminine. And it can feel uncomfortable. Some of it's through intimacy. Like, I. I like intimacy. Like, I'm not afraid to be intimate, which is not sexual. It's just connection with another man because it's where their heart opens up.
- [129:05]
B
It's beautiful. Or even towards gay.
- [129:06]
A
Yeah, see? See?
- [129:08]
B
Walking with your toes.
- [129:10]
A
You're part of the problem.
- [129:11]
B
No, I'm sorry. Let's rewind the tape. I like being intimate with men.
- [129:18]
A
And we have the idea of intimacy wrong. We think intimacy means sexuality. It doesn't. It just means heart connection. And yes, there's nothing.
- [129:27]
B
I know what you're saying. There's just now making fun of you to your face.
- [129:31]
A
But there's nothing better. I'm telling you right now, dude, there's nothing better than watching a man's heart open who has been closed for decades. It's beautiful.
- [129:41]
B
The comments I am fighting off right now.
- [129:44]
A
Do you regret having.
- [129:46]
B
Why are you tempting me with these comments?
- [129:49]
A
This is like cleared hot podcast. All these guys who are military. Like, who is this guy? But I. They have it in them, too, that. Some version of this. So mine.
- [129:58]
B
Why describe it as masculine and feminine, though?
- [130:00]
A
Because that's what they actually.
- [130:01]
B
But I think that's where people get tripped up.
- [130:02]
A
I mean, putting a label on it. Yeah, but you, like, there's. These are some things you've got to, like, take that are natural in the universe. There's men, there's women, there's. There's two sexes.
- [130:11]
B
Easy now.
- [130:11]
A
Like. Yeah, I know. Well, there are some natural things like that, and we have them inside of us. And I think part of what we're seeing in the world is there's a war of that inside of us, and we don't know what to do with it. And our culture doesn't. And so we tell kids, that's not the war.
- [130:26]
B
The war is because we lived in such. Live in such a soft, soft society that people have far too much time on their hands to consider and create these artificial battles.
- [130:38]
A
Okay. I would also consider that people are seeing what a man is supposed. Like, let's talk about men. Men. Look at what we say a man is and say, I don't identify as that.
- [130:52]
B
That change the definition.
- [130:53]
A
Correct. But a lot of culture says this, and I have all these things happening inside of me, and no one's telling me how to process this. In fact, all they're saying is, oh, you can just choose to be a woman. Maybe. Maybe a conversation is like, it's okay the way you feel. And I'm. By the way, I don't pretend to know what it's like to be gay or a lot of people say they were born like that, and I don't. But people who were not and who are saying, I'm dealing with these things. How about we, like, say it's okay? Let's talk about, like, you probably have part of you that's dying to get out. That's okay. Like dancing, like painting, like singing. I don't know, stuff that if you were raised, like. Like, we were raised men don't really do that kind of thing. And so when I found myself.
- [131:40]
B
Have you ever seen the movie Flashdance?
- [131:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. Or no.
- [131:44]
B
What's the one with Kevin Bacon?
- [131:45]
A
Well, how about Dirty Dancing?
- [131:48]
B
Kevin Bacon in the barn where he gets in the tractor and he can't.
- [131:52]
A
Get his foot off.
- [131:52]
B
What is it called?
- [131:53]
A
Footloose. Yeah, Footloose.
- [131:55]
B
I'm pretty sure that movie was about him dancing.
- [131:56]
A
Yes. And it's very popular, right? Yeah. So people.
- [132:00]
B
Probably more people, but.
- [132:01]
A
Yeah, but I think men can relate to the freedom. So when I found myself by myself at literally 4am ballet, African style also, all these kind of things come want. And it is so freeing. It's just, like crazy release. And from that place, I started to just. Just experience some life so differently. Like, my heart opened up and I realized, like, the guy, like, the men that I work with, there's normally, like, something in each person that they have not let out, like art or dance or some feminine energy. Not for everybody, but that's been locked up. And when I started opening that thing up, man, my heart opened. I cried. I would cry every morning for, like, two months. It's, like healing crying, dude. Like, crazy. I would just start dancing, and all of a sudden I'd be in a puddle of tears because I'd be shown, like, Scott's development, and I got shown how I helped him and, like, this beautiful thing, and I would just start crying. I got to see my dad died when I was 24, and I got to experience my dad, like, all over again. And just all of these things. And it was unlocked without drugs, just by dancing. And it's very real. And one of them, I was an Asian woman. Maybe. I don't know.
- [133:21]
B
What other lives have you lived?
- [133:23]
A
I have no idea. I really don't know. I really don't know. But if you talk to kids, I'm finding, like, these younger generations have a lot of gifts that we don't have. What we would call spiritual gifts. Have you ever heard of the telepathy tapes? What blow your freaking mind. Telepathy tapes all recorded people being able to communicate with each other through their minds. What's the currency that they communicate by? It's love. They all talk about. What do you do?
- [133:51]
B
So I'll research that and then I'm going to research the debunking of that because I feel like this falls into the category of SUs. To use the language I would love you to use.
- [134:00]
A
I would love to suspect. Yes, thank you. Which I. Which some people might think I am, I guess. Look at the telepathy tapes and the point is, it seems to me even my kids like some of this stuff. Some of the stuff I talk about. They continue to be recorded regularly. I. I can't.
- [134:18]
B
Is it. Are there two people completely alone in a room?
- [134:21]
A
Oh, yeah. They've done all the controls. Dude, go, go check it out. It's. It's mind blowing. I think Joe Rogan mentions these somewhat often. He's had people.
- [134:31]
B
He does, but they've been debunked. The celebrities talking about. Yes. There are other people in the room and there are people interacting with those who are supposedly doing this experiment.
- [134:40]
A
I would do the digging.
- [134:42]
B
I will.
- [134:42]
A
Yeah.
- [134:44]
B
I'm just saying. I'm telling you what Joe said, not what I believe.
- [134:46]
A
Okay. Okay. Well, I'm curious if I'm wrong, please.
- [134:50]
B
Tell me, do you believe that David Blaine is actually doing magic?
- [134:55]
A
I have no idea. I have been to one of the shows.
- [135:01]
B
No. Whether or not it's actually real.
- [135:03]
A
No.
- [135:03]
B
Okay.
- [135:04]
A
No.
- [135:04]
B
Okay. At least we can start there. That's a good starting point. Is the earth round or flat?
- [135:08]
A
I believe it's round.
- [135:10]
B
Do you have doubt?
- [135:11]
A
No.
- [135:12]
B
Okay, good.
- [135:14]
A
Zero.
- [135:15]
B
No. I mean, to me it's fascinating. I. I am so fully supportive of people living however they want to live and believe in whatever they want to believe. Like I said, there's one carve out pedophiles. No. No time for any of that. It's one of those just bipartisan issues of our time that we can get behind. But other than that, I mean, I don't think people think you're crazy. It's certainly an atypical approach. But you seem happy.
- [135:41]
A
Yeah.
- [135:42]
B
You know, you seem like you are on the upswing, especially from the downswing that you were talking about what you experienced.
- [135:49]
A
Absolutely.
- [135:49]
B
I don't think anybody can argue that. I don't think there's a perfect tool for everything, but I think there's probably something to be learned from everything to include successes and failures. The whole pendulum swing.
- [136:01]
A
Amen.
- [136:02]
B
Yeah.
- [136:02]
A
Yeah. And I'm not claiming my ways the way, but it brings me tremendous peace. It brings me insight. I'm, like, finally able to work.
- [136:10]
B
Yeah. How do you so obviously been hugely impactful for you. How do you package this and share it with others?
- [136:20]
A
Well, I've been thinking a lot about that. That's why I started sharing online, because I realized first thing I need to do is share my story of suffering.
- [136:30]
B
And let me ask you this. What was the response you thought you were gonna get, and what was the response you got?
- [136:37]
A
That's a great, great question. I was so terrified, dude.
- [136:40]
B
What did you think was gonna. You thought you were gonna get judged?
- [136:42]
A
It was you, I thought for sure. Which I think in a way it has happened.
- [136:47]
B
Like my, I guess, judgment.
- [136:49]
A
Yeah.
- [136:49]
B
It's gonna happen either way. Negatively, I guess.
- [136:52]
A
Yeah. Well, I think, like, my reputation. So people knew me as one way. A lot of people. Some people really knew that I was in this dark place. They knew that I was not that guy. Those. But they were very few. So I was thinking, like, man, if I share this, like, no opportunities are coming my way. Like, maybe people who are suffering and need help. That's good. But like, that whole world I used to live in, they're going to be like, what happened to Chad?
- [137:20]
B
Yeah. Was he like this when we knew him?
- [137:22]
A
Yeah. And then. And then now I'm talking about all this other stuff and I'm happy I did, but it's. It's uncomfortable.
- [137:28]
B
But what was the response you got?
- [137:30]
A
I got a lot of people saying, thank you so much because I was there. I thought about taking my life. I lost. I didn't know who I was. I had a lack of identity. I still get to this day, people messaging me, saying, we. I can't believe you went through this. You always look like somebody who had it all together. It's so comforting to know that Chad didn't have it all together. It makes me.
- [137:53]
B
That's why I reached out to you.
- [137:54]
A
Yeah. And then this. This proved me wrong because this is an opportunity. And I would have thought, like, I just. I felt. I had that urge of, like, I have to share, like, I can't explain it the other way. Like, I have to do this or I'm gonna like, burst. And so I wasn't trying to do it to get something. I just, I know I have to do this. And then freaking. You reached out to me and I was like, what?
- [138:18]
B
I'm so tired, like I said, of watching people trying to put makeup on a pig. I don't think the perfect life life exists. This struggle free. No ups and downs. Everything is just going to be rainbows and beautiful sunrises and sunsets. I think life is about just being in the trenches and maybe getting an inch at a time.
- [138:42]
A
Yeah. Amen. Well, I think, I think, I think it can be a lot more than that, really. I think there's so much more available to us when you're willing to accept that you don't know everything.
- [138:56]
B
Yeah.
- [138:57]
A
And you're going and you ask the questions like you said, you asked why. And you just go look, go do your own digging there. I mean, I am finding more life than I've ever found. I don't have more money. I haven't made almost a life or.
- [139:11]
B
Very, very different things, my friend and I.
- [139:13]
A
And suffering is not suffering any longer. Suffering is just an opportunity to grow. It's like a workout. And that changes the freaking game. Like something bad happens. Bad. Which I don't believe in good and bad anymore either. It's like that's the paradox. There just is. Now I get to operate from this. Oh, it just is probably for my benefit. What can I learn, like now all of a sudden, like, life's kind of fun. Like it's light, much lighter than it used to be.
- [139:39]
B
Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, you can thought process your way about. There's not bad and there's not good. And, and I could throw some pretty horrific examples at you that I think would resoundingly are pretty bad. Usually involving people's kids and catastrophic accidents. It's tough to see the good or bad in that in any way. But in general, I think what you're talking about is a healthier way to approach life.
- [140:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And I know it's a hard stance and a lot of people wouldn't agree with me on it because of what you said. But if you.
- [140:10]
B
Well, again, it doesn't have to be. I, I, I have constantly reinforced to myself, stop looking for absolutes.
- [140:19]
A
Yeah.
- [140:19]
B
It's okay if it's true 90% of the time.
- [140:22]
A
Yeah.
- [140:23]
B
Because the only thing so far that I have found to be absolutely true is that gravity Works every time.
- [140:29]
A
I mean, so far.
- [140:30]
B
Yeah. Well, I'm sure at some point. I believe science shows that we will eventually implode into ourselves. We will be long. You'll be on your. Well, you'll be around because you're on a different.
- [140:39]
A
I'll be in some other life, in some other world.
- [140:42]
B
Yes, you'll be the new Elon Musk. Yeah, yeah. You'll be Chad Teleportation. You'll be Chad Musk. But, you know, you could say, well, the sun comes up and goes down every day. I'm like, yeah, but I think the sun's supposed to implode at some point, too. So those things eventually might go away, but other than that.
- [141:01]
A
But what if this is. What if there is just. What if there are two realities and what if there are even more? Then, like, yeah, but I'm not living in those.
- [141:09]
B
I can only do the best I can in this one.
- [141:11]
A
Yeah, yeah. But the interesting thing is there. There seems to be a way to experience both in this one, to. Like I've said, like, I've. I've had these experiences, and even in the moment, I can detach from this and draw from that in a way that. That's all I can explain and I can get. Get, like, an understanding of something or somebody or what to do. And it's really peaceful to, like, wreck. It's. It's the paradox. I'm not saying this doesn't exist. I'm just saying it seems like there's two worlds that are coexisting and that we actually have access to them. Quantum physics is showing this. Quantum physics is showing there's this whole other unseen realm that no one can explain that is having an impact on the seen realm. That's what quantum physics ultimately says, which is why it's messing everybody up. Up.
- [142:00]
B
Listen, you're talking to a person that had a 1.8 GPA in high school and that's better than me. That is the only education that I have. So. But, like, I am nobody to be having this existential conversation.
- [142:11]
A
Okay?
- [142:11]
B
What if quantum physics.
- [142:12]
A
I. I know we're, like, trying to come to an end, but what.
- [142:14]
B
What I'm trying to let you know that quantum physics is a little bit over my skis.
- [142:18]
A
Me, too. But what if what I'm reading, what I'm seeing is true and seems to be across the board of scientists, that there's this thing called quantum physics. We make quantum computers now, which I understand better how they work, and they seem to point to these fields of Invisible existence that are impacting ultimately material objects. Like they materialize somehow. Like that's something to consider.
- [142:45]
B
Yeah. But it's also something to consider that two generations ago they didn't understand a light bulb.
- [142:50]
A
Yeah. You know, there's so much more for us to understand.
- [142:53]
B
That's what I'm saying. Maybe we're just not at a place evolution wise. We are capable of understanding it.
- [142:58]
A
I would agree with that. That, you know, would agree.
- [143:00]
B
The Wright Bl. Have you looked at how long ago the Wright brothers took their little test flight? No, it ain't that long ago.
- [143:07]
A
Yeah.
- [143:07]
B
And we're cruising around in tens and you know what I mean?
- [143:09]
A
Yeah.
- [143:10]
B
Do you think the Wright brothers ever thought there'd be a 757 or same day Amazon delivery from drones?
- [143:16]
A
Right.
- [143:17]
B
No. They would have told you that's in an alternate reality or universe. So I'm not saying what you're saying isn't true.
- [143:23]
A
Yeah.
- [143:23]
B
I'm also not saying that it is. I'm going to be just.
- [143:28]
A
You're in the paradox.
- [143:29]
B
Sure.
- [143:29]
A
Kind of. But you're not accepting both as.
- [143:31]
B
But I'm not paradoxical. How does that fit?
- [143:32]
A
Well, paradoxically, you would have to accept that both could be true. Can you accept that?
- [143:37]
B
I accept that.
- [143:39]
A
You could accept the possibility that both are accepted.
- [143:42]
B
The bus that I rode to school was short and had flavor. Okay. Here's what I accept. So to me, I do this drill with people. This table represents all of potential knowledge. If I were to give you a pen and have you create a circle of how much you think you know, what would you draw? Because I know people who's a little.
- [144:06]
A
Speck over here, dude.
- [144:07]
B
I know people who would say half.
- [144:11]
A
No way.
- [144:12]
B
I would be looking for the most. Microsoft.
- [144:14]
A
Do you really know somebody who would say that?
- [144:16]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [144:16]
A
Have you actually had somebody in here say that?
- [144:18]
B
No, but I know that they exist because people are crazy.
- [144:21]
A
Yeah. That's insane.
- [144:22]
B
I would be looking for a pen that was only visible through the Hubble telescope, holding it up right next to it to be like. Yeah, and even that would be too much.
- [144:35]
A
Yeah. But that's wisdom.
- [144:36]
B
But what I'm saying is that puts me in a place where I want to believe that anything is possible. I am not dogmatic about much.
- [144:45]
A
Yeah, it's beautiful. You're a rare breed. Honestly, most people are picking a side. I used to. I used to choose.
- [144:53]
B
I don't think either side.
- [144:54]
A
Not. Not just side, but like choose it. Like there's this. There's this.
- [144:58]
B
I can tell You. My core beliefs.
- [145:00]
A
Yeah. But there's this belief that has also been debunked for me that you have to believe something.
- [145:06]
B
No, I reserve the right to have no opinion on whatever I want to. Yeah, but that frustrates people.
- [145:11]
A
Who said that? Like, you have. I remember having this conversation with somebody early on, and they're like, what do you believe? And this is like, a big moment, because at the time, I didn't really believe anything. I mean, I do believe a lot of things, but I'm not. I'm not taking them to the grave of, like, I am right. Therefore, I have made my decision. And this is the wisdom you have. You're like, what the hell do I know?
- [145:31]
B
I often feel like I am right when I am doing things, but I am always open to being proven wrong.
- [145:36]
A
Wrong. Yeah. It's beautiful, man. It's power.
- [145:39]
B
It's from a lifetime of making mistakes where I was convinced I was right.
- [145:42]
A
Yes. As you've written in your book.
- [145:44]
B
Yeah. I don't know how that book's gonna do, man.
- [145:47]
A
It's freaking great, dude.
- [145:49]
B
I feel like I wrote the thing.
- [145:50]
A
I mean, I know you're 30 pages. I know I'm 30. I'm 30 pages in. But you. I almost cried at the freaking intro. When you're writing to your kids and to.
- [145:58]
B
Yeah, but you also.
- [145:59]
A
I'm in touch.
- [146:01]
B
You tear up while you're doing ballet in the morning.
- [146:03]
A
That's correct.
- [146:04]
B
So I'll put that one in the shelf of. I don't know what that means.
- [146:10]
A
That's correct. Yeah. No, I think it'll be great because it's relatable.
- [146:14]
B
Well, you know what's fascinating about the process is, so I wrote it, handed in four editorial passes, and when I was writing it before I handed in, I went through it multiple times, like, oh, I need to change this. I got to the point where I think I was changing it back to the original form.
- [146:27]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [146:28]
B
So I had to turn it into the editor.
- [146:30]
A
Otherwise, you just keep.
- [146:31]
B
Well, then it comes back and they have editorial suggestions. I'm sitting there. Are they suggesting I put it back to the way it was, or am I just now telling myself this because I've looked at this so many times that I actually can't remember.
- [146:44]
A
This has got to be. It's not an easy process. Right?
- [146:47]
B
It wasn't hard.
- [146:48]
A
I mean, you said it's not hard.
- [146:49]
B
But the writing of it I didn't find to be hard. The editorial, past stuff. Not hard. I'm so thankful that there was A grammatical past. Because.
- [146:58]
A
I found one error, by the way.
- [146:59]
B
Did you? What was it?
- [147:00]
A
Yeah, being. It was word being.
- [147:04]
B
So it's a galley copy, by the way. There's been a second or another editorial pass that is to just basically give to people as like, hey, this is coming for them to sell the book.
- [147:13]
A
Very small error. But I was laughing because I remember you saying, like, how many errors that you.
- [147:17]
B
It was a spelling error.
- [147:18]
A
No, it was grammatical error. Or it was a wrong word choice. Sorry, whatever that is. Maybe wrong word choice. But like. But. But, like, it worked. But I just. It was on, I don't know, page five.
- [147:29]
B
Maybe I like to use different words.
- [147:31]
A
Maybe. Maybe. But it. But the truth is, like, I did not. Well, first of all, I've known you. I mean, you've told me stories over beers in the past, and there were a lot of stories that I was reading, even just 30 pages in that I had no idea about. And they're super relatable because you're making stupid decisions at. At 19 years old that we all did. And most people would think, like, Navy SEALs aren't doing that. Like, they must have their. Together.
- [147:58]
B
Oh, man, if they saw behind the curtain, they would have no faith in the United States military.
- [148:02]
A
You have shown somewhat behind the curtain in there.
- [148:04]
B
Oh, it gets worse. No, it's. There's not a. It's not. It's not a military book. I can't. I can't escape, nor do I want to escape my military past. I just don't want it to be all that I ever am. And I feel obligated to at least try to take those experiences and do something with them.
- [148:20]
A
Yeah, well, I. I think you've done a great job. At what point in your life did you just stop giving a crap about what people thought? I mean, you just said what you thought because you have this, like, really unique. When I get there now, you. Yeah, I know you. You maybe care a little bit, but, like, you have this. He's just an open book and it's really rare. I think it's why people resonate with you is because you just. You say what's on your mind. I don't. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know how much you say what's in your heart, like, really in there.
- [148:50]
B
I bite my tongue occasionally, not often. I don't want to hurt people. Yeah, unless you're a pedophile and then I have a full.
- [149:00]
A
Yeah, you should.
- [149:01]
B
Other book about things I've thought about with that. Some of them was a wood chipper, which, which cheese grater.
- [149:06]
A
But this is, this, this is your appreciation of innocence and stealing innocence. What I hear you say is I don't like bullies. Yeah.
- [149:14]
B
It's not only people who victimize other people, especially those that aren't able to fight for themselves. Yeah, I can't stand and see that happen. I think I've always been that way. But you have to be cautious with that because if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person, even if it's the right thing but at the wrong time.
- [149:40]
A
Yeah.
- [149:40]
B
Know it's not good. And I've done that more times than I would care to admit.
- [149:45]
A
Me too. I hope I didn't do that on this podcast. Honestly, I don't know.
- [149:50]
B
What are you talking about? You're just talking about your own experiences.
- [149:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [149:53]
B
I don't think that's possible. When you're just talking about. You might. Well, here's the thing. There's no belief that you have that everybody's going to agree with, period.
- [149:59]
A
Sure.
- [150:00]
B
So yeah, there'll be people, there'll be Christians who like you're. How dare you even call yourself religious. It's like, wow, where's that chapter in the Bible?
- [150:09]
A
Yeah, I don't call myself religious, but yeah, how can you believe in Jesus and believe that?
- [150:13]
B
John, chapter four, verse six, judge ye much. I don't know if that's the actual chapter and verse but. Or if that's in the Bible.
- [150:20]
A
You know one thing my brother in law taught me, that's exactly what in line with what you said, he said, anytime you think you have to say something, keep your mouth shut.
- [150:31]
B
I'm at a place where I'll give people my opinion if they ask me for it. Other than that, most stuff I put into the category of not my circus, not my monkeys.
- [150:40]
A
Yeah, well that's, that's rare because I mean I went through a whole stage where I was like, I have to tell. I have to say this thing to my kid or to my wife.
- [150:48]
B
I will tell them if they ask.
- [150:50]
A
Yeah.
- [150:50]
B
But if they don't ask, I'm not a incredibly deep in stoicism, but one of the things I do like from. I think, I think it was Marcus Aurelius was not everything is being asked to be judged by you. It's like, okay, yeah, I guess you have a good point.
- [151:07]
A
Yeah. Well, you do know you're a projector, you know, in these little. These, these.
- [151:12]
B
I know you've used that word to me. A projector is something that's electronic that puts it on a screen and a.
- [151:16]
A
Projector must be invited in. I have two of them as my kid, and I see it all the time. But the bet you're at your best whether you believe me or not, when you wait to get invited, because then you have a depth of wisdom and, you know, you also know how to. I mean, sorry to say, like, I know you, but it seems like we've.
- [151:34]
B
Known each other for a decade and a half. We've spent substantial time apart.
- [151:37]
A
But yeah, it seems like. I mean, you can, you can help. If somebody comes to you and says, hey, I need some help on this thing, like, here's my situation. My guess is it's pretty easy for you to be like, help them find what they're up against and give them.
- [151:52]
B
Not that you're making decisions narrowly tranched inside of my experience.
- [151:56]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [151:57]
B
Outside of that, I could maybe give some general advice.
- [152:00]
A
Yeah. Which I. I have attended. I bet you do a lot of that if asked. Yeah. When. When asked somebody like, you should be able to. And clearly you can help a freaking lot of people find their way when asked because they open up to you. And you have this ability to basically advise people in that, in that situation. And you have all this life experience, man, and you use it. I mean, I'm not saying anything. You don't know. I'm just, just. I'm laughing at the fact that I see. I see your design and it's.
- [152:28]
B
You think you see my design?
- [152:29]
A
I think I do. I think I do.
- [152:31]
B
There's some gypsy powers in your perceptive ability.
- [152:34]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [152:35]
B
Turning the dial doesn't mean that it's correct. Good science follows the evidence, not works it towards a presupposition. But, but actually what you're talking about isn't science. So that argument is less valid.
- [152:47]
A
Yes, it is. Yeah.
- [152:48]
B
Dude. You know, a lot of the times we know what I've come to realize as I get older, it's like, who gives a. What I think?
- [152:54]
A
Yeah.
- [152:55]
B
Nobody.
- [152:56]
A
They care more when you care less in that way. Not like you say whatever you want. You. You care. You don't want to hurt people. But, like, you recognize it's. It's your. It's the wisdom. It's realizing the more I know, the less I know. Like, and all of a sudden, yeah, you can help a lot of people. This is the beautiful paradox of that.
- [153:14]
B
Well, I've done enough damage in my life. I think the least I can do is probably help some people out.
- [153:19]
A
Yeah.
- [153:20]
B
You know.
- [153:20]
A
Yeah.
- [153:21]
B
The old Visions of the people you've heard along the way. I'm like, oh, be a rough hallway to walk down. It's like, my bad. Shouldn't have done that.
- [153:30]
A
Yeah. I can't. I cannot imagine being in your position in that some of those situations, it's a good thing.
- [153:37]
B
And honestly, they're. Well, I'm far less romantic than people make come out to be.
- [153:40]
A
Yeah. Yeah. But I remember you telling me some of those stories overseas that was like, whoa, whoa. I have no idea what that would be like.
- [153:48]
B
Almost nobody does.
- [153:49]
A
Yeah.
- [153:50]
B
And that's a good thing. Where can people find your new business where they can pay you for your services, even though your tattooed motto across your back is pro bono? Apparently in, of course, Helvetica.
- [154:03]
A
No.
- [154:05]
B
I would go bolt and italicize for a tattoo.
- [154:08]
A
Okay. I don't know what we chose for a font.
- [154:10]
B
Yeah.
- [154:11]
A
The company's called Activate.
- [154:12]
B
Take a look at Helvetica.
- [154:13]
A
I'll take a look at it. It's amazing, huh?
- [154:16]
B
I mean, on a PowerPoint slide. Chef's kiss.
- [154:22]
A
Oh, my gosh. The company's called Activate. And basically, I work with executives and their teams to help them get aligned with themselves, with each other as a team and the company. So it's like a mix of executive coaching and consulting. And I love it because I finally was able to pick up my past and combine it with all of this, the learnings I've had in these recent years. I'm not talking about all the mystical stuff, necessarily, but package it all together and really realize that, like, this is valuable. There's a lot of companies, there's a lot of leadership teams, executive teams who are not aligned, who have friction everywhere. And I. I saw, through my own experience of coaching these guys, like, wow. I guess I can add some value.
- [155:08]
B
And so if you were to do a pie chart, what. How big do you think the slice of pie would be? Whether the executive teams are totally aligned and there is no friction.
- [155:22]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [155:23]
B
Because I think it might be a fork full.
- [155:25]
A
It is. So.
- [155:26]
B
And that's it.
- [155:27]
A
I mean, I. I think about how many teams I've been on since I was 4 years old. I'm playing sports the whole time in all the companies.
- [155:32]
B
Yeah.
- [155:34]
A
And there have been three really impressive teams. There's been one moment where I consider this a moment of total coherence, which best way I can classify it is, like, this idea of magnetism. But there's this. The team with CrossFit, where the whole company was, like, headed in one direction. The resources were in the direction, the systems, the processes, and it was unbelievable.
- [155:58]
B
Don't you just want to hold on to that forever?
- [156:00]
A
Well, yes. And this is. I went through and dissected that thing. I dissected like what was at play and then I started looking at other companies and other teams and realized like the same things are at play. And this is what I am doing now. I'm trying, I'm getting. I built like a system that mapped what was at play and it has to do with basically aligning purpose, people and process. And there's a lot that goes into each one, but you can recreate it. You can actually. Like, it doesn't have to be such rarefied air because it happens on accident so often, but there are rare occasions where there's a leader who like knows what they're doing. I've met some of them. That's so freaking rare. Most of the time they're like me. You really don't really know exactly what we're doing.
- [156:42]
B
We're figuring it out.
- [156:44]
A
Yeah. But then like you look back and I'm, I've learned all this stuff and realize, whoa, I think I can actually help a lot of teams because like you can, it's like CrossFit. You can measure this, you can repeat it, you can observe it. And so, yeah, so anyways, this is what we do. And there should be a heck of a lot more teams that are coherent. If you think about, like, think about the billions of dollars in all the lives that are reliant on oftentimes this 10 person executive team that is incoherent, like it's crazy. And if they become coherent means basically they're all aligned, they're going in the same direction with an awe inspiring purpose that inspires the company. And there's a way to rally the troops and make sure, like it's like an electric charge. All the charges get aligned in the same direction. Like total game changer. You become a pull. I'm guessing maybe in some of your SEAL teams. I don't know if you experienced it, but you literally become like a magnet. You become a pole. Like, do you remember when this happened with us? Like people were dying to work for Reebok. Like all these people were coming to us like we were. No, most of the hunt most companies have is you're searching for talent, you're searching for sales. There's a way where it actually gets a law of the universe. If you get coherent like a magnet. The law of the universe says things must attract, become you. Become attractive, and they must come to you. And companies are like that. Some companies. There's a formula.
- [158:15]
B
Meanwhile, most of those executive teams are hiding that dysfunction instead of addressing it.
- [158:20]
A
Oh, dude, this is so priceless. Do you know the number of meetings I was. I was in at these big boardrooms? And it's like, we're not coherent. And the conversation is, when we go out there, we're coherent.
- [158:33]
B
Yeah. Straight face. Get in line. We all fall out in that room. They're like, I.
- [158:37]
A
And guess what, people, we have. We have our own energies. People can feel you. People can sense your. And that's the way I think a lot of companies operate, and they think it's okay because it. Because it works. Like, they look at it. Am I delivering on the bottom line? Right. Am I hitting my numbers? And some are like, yes. Well, what I'm saying is I experienced it, and we see it rarely. There's a whole nother way to do it where, like, the bottom line happens, the top line happens. Like, it all is there. So I'm really. I'm very passionate about that.
- [159:06]
B
Well, it seems like a new phase in your life, too.
- [159:09]
A
Yeah. Which is awesome. And. And it's cool because it, like, I got to pick up the pieces of my life and realize, oh, I don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, which is pretty cool. So you can find me. Activate. MyIdentity.com is the website, and, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Dude.
- [159:28]
B
What do you want to close out with.
- [159:29]
A
With ballet dancing?
- [159:32]
B
You can go ahead. I'll leave the camera on, facing my direction. I know plenty of dudes that dance.
- [159:40]
A
Yeah, that's good. I mean, by the way, I don't just ballet dance. There are other. There are other forms you do.
- [159:45]
B
Explore them all.
- [159:46]
A
I was doing it this morning. It was amazing. Okay. I would like to say. Oh, we. We never did talk about Luke.
- [159:54]
B
Does he really want the story told where he wanted to get into a drinking contest with me? Oh, my God.
- [160:01]
A
He picked the alpha male in the room.
- [160:03]
B
This is in Korea. I think Steve was there for this.
- [160:06]
A
Steve was with you? Yep.
- [160:07]
B
Yeah. What were we doing? Shots of we.
- [160:09]
A
We were in the Maple Tree House, which is my friend's restaurant. Great Barbecue restaurant. Shooting Soju.
- [160:16]
B
Yep.
- [160:17]
A
And the problem with soju is it creeps up on you.
- [160:19]
B
That's the problem with all alcohol, by the way.
- [160:21]
A
Okay.
- [160:21]
B
Yeah. Depending on the velocity that you drink it. That's the problem with all alcohol.
- [160:26]
A
Alcohol, yeah.
- [160:27]
B
Yeah. Luke was like, let's Go. And I'm like, wrong guy.
- [160:30]
A
Yeah. But you straight face it. I remember he just kept. He just kept cheersing you. And there became a point, like I was keeping up. And then it came a point where I was like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I'm freaking hammered. And he just kept. And he would just remember, he'd like pour his drink and he'd go to you be like, cheers. And all I remember was this moment where you looked at me and I had never seen you look at me. Except for that one. Actually, that's the second time. The other time was that incident in the other bar where you were like, code red.
- [161:02]
B
Yeah.
- [161:03]
A
And I was like, what's happening? Where am I? I don't understand. I don't understand the language. He just told me to go out the back door.
- [161:09]
B
Yeah.
- [161:09]
A
Meet him across the street.
- [161:10]
B
Yeah.
- [161:11]
A
That was priceless. But you looked at me and you were like, dude, get control of your brother in law or we're gonna have a problem. And I was like, oh, shit. I've never seen Andy, kid. Because you were just smiling and smiling. And then you were like, nope. And right after that, I think he fell back in his chair.
- [161:32]
B
Yep. Which is the perfect time to leave.
- [161:34]
A
It was the perfect time. But he says to this day, he said, I'm so glad that happened because Andy showed me my place amongst men. And he said it changed my life. He said from that moment, like, I stuck. He basically is like, I stopped being an asshole, like, trying to be the alpha. And he's an incredible. He does jujitsu. He follows your stuff. He wears your rash guard. And he's an incredible guy, honestly. And that moment, like, I never saw him act like that again ever. But I was terrified, dude.
- [162:07]
B
I'm a pussycat, dude.
- [162:09]
A
Yeah, until you're not.
- [162:10]
B
That's the way it goes. Yeah, that's the way it goes. Nicest guy ever. Until you force me to a place where I have to not be nice.
- [162:18]
A
And then who knows what's going to happen?
- [162:20]
B
That I hope you train.
- [162:24]
A
Oh, yeah, it's good. Cool. All right. Thank you, man.
- [162:26]
B
Until next time.
- [162:27]
A
All right.
- [162:28]
B
How long do you think we talked for? This is all.
- [162:30]
A
I have no idea. But I got.
- [162:31]
B
Thank you, guys.