Episode 415 - Bear Handlon - A Navy SEAL on a mission to erase 25 Million in Medical Debt

Summary

Cleared Hot Episode 415 — Bear Handlon: A Navy SEAL on a Mission to Erase $25 Million in Medical Debt (Nov 10, 2025)

Overview

In this engaging episode, Andy Stumpf sits down with Bear Handlon, Navy SEAL, co-founder of Born Primitive, and a driving force behind a new campaign to wipe out $25 million in medical debt for US veterans. The discussion blends a candid look into entrepreneurship, the realities of transitioning from military to civilian life, reflections on SEAL training and culture, and the mechanics and deeper meaning behind giving back to the military community—specifically through Born Primitive and Black Rifle Coffee Company’s joint Veterans Day initiative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Entrepreneurial Journeys: From Service to Startups

• Andy and Bear swap stories about building retail operations during COVID and the pains of navigating city bureaucracy, permitting, and supply chain chaos (04:00–09:00).

• Bear details the evolution of Born Primitive, starting in his garage with his wife, Mallory, running booths at CrossFit events and packing orders late at night while active duty. The struggle of scaling while holding down two demanding jobs is a recurring theme (32:00–35:00).

  “The early days, our marketing plan was just go to every CrossFit event we could and set up a booth… I’d limp my ass through the doorway on Friday after a week in Buds, and she’d say, ‘Don’t get too comfortable, we gotta pack the Jeep.’” —Bear (32:45)

• Candid admission that in entrepreneurship, as in SEAL training, most people are winging it, but success often comes down to willingness to play the hand and risk failure (10:07–11:18).

  “Absolutely nobody knows what they’re doing. Even people at the top, it’s just figuring it out as you go.” —Andy (10:07)

2. Product Development: From Tactical Apparel to Retail Expansion

• The challenges and philosophy of creating performance apparel for tactical and outdoor use—why “multi-tool” products can fail, the necessity of iteration, and the reality that some customer requests can’t be accommodated (19:30–21:30).

  “I just want to build an OP pant that is built for an athlete. Human performance needs to be the number one priority.” —Bear (18:53)

• Discussion about U.S.-made products, manufacturing hurdles, and why most high-end performance gear still requires global supply chains (95:11–101:24).

  “To oversimplify it, the American textile industry is just in no position to do what can be done overseas. It doesn’t exist.” —Bear (96:23)

3. Transition from Military to Civilian Life

• Bear opens up about identity and validation post-SEAL career, wrestling with the fact that he didn’t see combat—contrasting this with the legacy and value of team members from quieter eras (60:15–64:47).

  “Although you and I have the same title, I’d put a little asterisk next to mine because I never actually … I feel like you don’t truly feel validated until you’ve been in.” —Bear (61:45)

• Honest talk on the fraught politics of using the SEAL title post-service in business, and the community’s often vicious self-policing (76:09–81:31).

  “Our community … is one of the most vicious, self-consuming communities, especially when it comes to people having success outside of that community.” —Andy (79:00)

4. Lessons in Leadership and Decision-Making

• Reflections on SEAL training—why the gray man approach is valued, unpredictable attrition rates, the failure of stereotypes in predicting who would make it, and the crucial importance of mental resilience (52:00–59:00).

  “The muscle that matters is above the shoulders, not below.” —Andy (58:47)

• The mental gymnastics and emotional toll of juggling family, growing a company, and being a team guy—and deciding when it's time to step away (70:34–73:44).

5. Candid Business Mistakes

• Bear details Born Primitive’s most costly misstep: a software-driven purchase order resulting in hundreds of thousands of unsellable units, crushing their cash flow (87:09–94:40).

  “We over-ordered by 700%. It wasn’t even close.” —Bear (92:14)

• The pain of being “profitable on paper, but cash-flow negative.” (89:35–90:55)

6. Veterans Day Initiative: Erasing Medical Debt ($25 Million Goal)

• Deep-dive into 2024’s campaign with Black Rifle Coffee and Forgive Co.: 100% of online profits from Nov 7–11 go to pay off veteran medical debt, with the goal of erasing $25 million (121:17–129:04).

• Bear shares powerful recipient stories—a single mother, a Gold Star spouse with $340k debt, and more—emphasizing the impact on real lives (122:53–132:26).

  “When you tell someone [their $12,000 debt is gone], it might as well be 12 million if you’re living paycheck to paycheck.” —Bear (123:43)

• Long-term vision: using aggregated data to identify and solve systemic VA and medical debt issues for veterans (138:15–143:40).

  “Could we actually, as two civilian organizations, implement some change … with the VA, what I’m going to tell them is, ‘This isn’t meant to shame you guys, but I’m going to have a very valuable data set that could really help you.’” —Bear (142:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Building Business and the SEAL Mentality:

  • “You just have to have the balls to play a hand… I think a lot of this success is right at the edge of risk.” —Bear (10:59)
  • “If I ever start another business, I’m going to do a service business, so there’s no inventory.” —Bear (93:25)

• On SEAL Training Attitude:

  • “As soon as they find out I went to Yale, there would be a connotation of: oh, he’s some snobby guy. Even though I’m a Midwest guy, public school.” —Bear (49:00)
  • “The muscle that matters is above the shoulders, not below.” —Andy (58:47)

• On America’s Manufacturing Realities:

  • “We don’t have the capability… you’d have to double the price of the pant. How many people are that fired up about Made in USA where they’d spend $360 on a pair of pants they could get for $160?” —Bear (99:14–100:38)

• On Veterans Day Debt Relief:

  • “We pledged 100% of profits for four days and the goal was to pay off $5 million in medical bills. We ended up doing $11 [million].” —Bear (122:46)
  • “I just love the fact that the community is solving the community’s problems.” —Andy (144:02)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Topic/Segment | |----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:00 | Navigating building/retail permits & supply chain insanity | | 10:07 | “Nobody knows what they’re doing”—secrets of entrepreneurship | | 18:53 | Designing tactical pants for performance vs. one-size-fits-all | | 32:00 | Origins of Born Primitive: balancing BUD/S and business with his wife | | 52:00 | Why SEAL training weeds out the unexpected; “gray man” and mental resilience | | 60:15 | Validation, career timing, and comparisons across pre/post 9/11 SEAL generations | | 70:34 | Leaving the military: fatherhood, business, and identity | | 87:09 | Inventory disaster—passive software and a $3M inventory mistake | | 95:11 | U.S. manufacturing, supply chain costs, and business math | | 121:17 | Details of the $25 million medical debt campaign for veterans | | 123:55 | Life-changing calls to debt recipients, real world impact | | 129:04 | Born Primitive & Black Rifle joint effort logistics, trade-offs, and community participation | | 138:15 | Vision: using data and partnerships to reform how VA and medical debt is handled | | 144:02 | Why the veteran community should solve its own problems |

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The Tone & Style

• The episode is honest, irreverent, and practical with plenty of banter and raw language that’s authentic to the SEAL and entrepreneur culture.
• Bear blends humility with fire, especially when talking about letting go of the “warrior” identity and rolling that mindset into his business and charitable work.

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How to Support the Veterans Day Campaign

• When: November 7–11, 2025
• How: Shop at bornprimitive.com or blackriflecoffee.com — 100% of online profits go to erasing veteran medical debt.
• Impact: Last year’s effort paid off $11M in bills for nearly 6,000 veterans; now, the goal is $25 million and a lasting impact.

“Literally just go to either website—buy some coffee, buy some clothes. If you’re going to get it anyway, it’s a great opportunity for it to be for a good cause.” —Bear (154:35)

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of military service, entrepreneurship, giving back, and the power (and pitfalls) of ambitious drive. It’s a deep, relatable, and inspiring conversation about using your platform—and lessons learned the hard way—to make a real impact.

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Listen here: [Cleared Hot Podcast – Episode 415 with Bear Handlon]

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(Summary by AI Podcast Summarizer — human accuracy, SEAL-level discipline.)

Transcript

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay, I got the red smoke.

[Andy Stumpf]

Sun run north or south. West of the smoke.

[Bear Hanlon]

West of the smoke.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay, copy.

[Bear Hanlon]

West of the smoke.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm looking at danger close now. Come on with it, baby.

[Bear Hanlon]

Give it to me.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, it cleared hot. Copy.

[Bear Hanlon]

Cleared hot.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't think I could actually even learn how to do it. You know what I mean? Like, I could never be an artist. Like, I can't draw, and I don't think I could ever draw. I understand the concepts of drawing. I can draw stick figures with dicks. I do it all the time. Yeah, I do it.

[Bear Hanlon]

We're all good at that.

[Andy Stumpf]

I do it in my wife's notebook all the time when she's not paying attention. And every time the reaction is the same. And every time I laugh, I can't stop because I'm a child. But we went over there, I'd say we had a 50 idea of what we wanted. And all I can say is, I'm so thankful that there are creative people out there that go down that path.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep. Gotta delegate it, dude.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, there was. And there were many iterations it probably took. It's hard to remember because it was. God, it was such a interesting journey, which I feel like you just went through with your retail store.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, dude, you don't even know. And we're designing a headquarter building, too, so it's 52,000 square feet. So imagine trying to design that. But the store was its own little beast, too.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, well, you guys had one advantage over us. This will happen for us during COVID Oh, geez. So we would get lumber quotes that were good for 24 hours, and one day it'd be up 60%, the next day down 40. So I. I honestly think we probably paid 30 to 40% more, because when we worked, like, we almost didn't have the panel that connects the city power into the building. They were eight months late.

[Bear Hanlon]

Jeez.

[Andy Stumpf]

And what. What were we gonna say to them? We're gonna go to your competitor? And they would just laugh. There is no competitor. And we were getting ready to flip the lights on because we opened in February of 23. I think we got that panel in December of 22. But permitting was unbelievable. Thankfully, though, the design from A and E and I actually think they just combined with somebody else. So it may not be A and E. They were amazing, but they. So you just were in the store. They actually. Their first pitches were, you need to make this smaller. I'm like, no, not doing it.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's in moderations for cowards. Go for it.

[Andy Stumpf]

We the whole thing came from the idea of my original business partner. We were sitting down having a conversation about where we would go to have a meeting if we were going to meet somebody in town. Then we realized we didn't have an answer. So we had the idiotic idea of building it. Today's episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. You know what's weak over roasted generic coffee that tastes like cardboard. This fall, Black Rifle Coffee is doing things differently. Veteran, founded and roasted right here in America. BRCC delivers bold blends like just black dark chocolate. Waken the neighbors and spirit of 76. Made for Patriots, hard workers and anyone who wants their morning to mean something. But here's what really matters. From November 7th through the 11th, Black Rifle Coffee Company is teaming up with Born Primitive and Forgive Co to launch a nationwide initiative. Eliminate up to 25 million doll of medical debt for US veterans. That's real action, not just headlines or hashtags. In 2025 alone, BRCC has supported organizations like Operation Homefront, Hunter 7 Foundation, Folds of Honor and Team Red, White and Blue. Groups that serve veterans where it counts. Mental health, housing, education and reintegration. So when you brew a cup this Veterans Week, you're doing more than just starting your day. You're backing the people who've had your back all along. Grab a bag at Walmart, your local grocery store or convenience store, Black Rifle Coffee Shop. Or head toBlack Rifle Coffee.com and join the mission. Black Rifle Coffee. Veteran founded American Roasted. This is America's coffee. Back to the show, which is the journey you're in right now. How's that? How's that been going for you?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

You guys on budget, on time?

[Bear Hanlon]

No. Way over budget, Way over budget delayed.

[Andy Stumpf]

Why is that always the story?

[Bear Hanlon]

Why? So I bought five acres in September of 2022. Okay. In VB. Yes. Right on Virginia Beach Boulevard. And I got really lucky. There was an old boulevard, there's an old guy that was about to die in. And he knew my builder. So he said, hey, do you know anyone that would want this? Because I had been looking for land for years, but like all the Amazons and everyone down there, like all the big dogs, like they get a hold of deals before anyone normal sees them.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh yeah, those are the hitting the market.

[Bear Hanlon]

Right? So yeah, exactly. So any land I looked at, it was like swamp land or you'd have to clear, like know just a forest or There was always a catch. But I wanted to build our own HQ because we kept growing out of our Own buildings. And I hate paying a landlord because I was like, I want to be. I want to be the landlord and the tenant. You know what I mean? So we got lucky. September 2022, and here we are, you know, October of 25, and we still haven't even broken ground yet. So if that gives you any idea of how that's gone with the city. I ultimately had to get hold of the mayor. Like I got a contact, so I texted, I was like, hey, I'm really sorry, but I feel like if I was the mayor, I would want you to know how things are done in your city. And he. I think he's former Marine. He was actually really cool. And he's like, all right, give me two hours. He's like, I'm gonna have an answer for you. And then like that next Monday we had a meeting. You could tell they had all been, you know, got their.

[Andy Stumpf]

Their shit handed about me that. I'm glad that happened to you so I.

[Bear Hanlon]

So we can share in the misery.

[Andy Stumpf]

I just want. I mean, how do you describe the process we had? God, it was crazy. And I'm curious if this happened in your design. They. It was wild. So there was what we wanted to build and then there were these requirements for water runoff.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, yeah, Rainwater. They're obsessed with rainwater. Yeah, that's everything.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, I forget what they call.

[Bear Hanlon]

I think bmp.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, ground swells or something like that. And so they. This, I don't want to say obscure organization, but these. This group basically had the ability to start modifying our design. And the original design that they had, the patio that we walked out would have two cavernous pits that I'm looking at. And I asked them in a meeting, are you guys accepting the liability for when somebody takes a header into this? Because that's the only thing I could think of. Because in the design, there was no like decorative fence to protect people from this. What they did want to have is a 6 inch concrete lip, which is to me, a toe catcher.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Snow ice.

[Bear Hanlon]

I luck with that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I'm like, who. Who is absorbing the risk of this? And they just looked at me. Well, I mean, not us. You guys are the business owner. So we creatively solved it. I'll tell you offline, just in case we solved it in a way that's not legal. But no, we created it. Still collects the rainwater. But I couldn't believe the amount of power that certain entities had. Permitting was one of them. Oh, yeah, we did a permitting call. They wanted to not approve Our design on one of the. We were initially looking at doing a second building right next to it. I was going to build an apartment on top and then a full building for a podcast studio because it had a roll up garage door and apparently where the coffee shop is. Those aren't allowed on that side of Main street, granted. I can walk around on that side of Main street and take pictures of multiples. So we had the call again during COVID remote with a guy in the city who was trying to tell me what I can spend my money on as a design and he wouldn't even turn on his camera.

[Bear Hanlon]

Of course.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's like, what. What is your office address again, you son of a. Which we ended up scrapping that portion of the design anyway. But the power they hold. And they know it too.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

And they like it.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep, of course.

[Andy Stumpf]

So anybody out there? You should all start. You should all build buildings and go into massive debt and why do you never hear a story of, hey, we're actually under budget and early.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

Never heard it.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, it's.

[Bear Hanlon]

If these cities could figure it out, they could bring so much additional business because like builders and like developers and the guys that like do it professionally, like, obviously you and I don't, but like, they're going to go where it's like the least red tape to develop. And that's what I told the mayor. I was like, hey, you're going to, you guys are going to lose business to Chesapeake in Norfolk because like, this is, this is a nightmare.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

Imagine if this was like a $200 million, like, you know, neighborhood that someone was developing. Like, they would be out because, you know, I was paying interest. Like, you know, the interest was racking up. I was paying 10 grand interest a month. So every month it was like a kick to the balls, you know what I mean? Talking about. Yeah, right. So don't worry, dude. We're. We're in it.

[Andy Stumpf]

You go look at it. You could go stand there at the edge of Virginia beach jungle.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And then, and then there was like homeless people camping on it. So then we like. And it's, you know, we got, we had a couple of team guys on staff. So like, I would send them down there to like. And then. Because they're going to like, find us. And I'm like, this. How's that?

[Andy Stumpf]

What?

[Bear Hanlon]

So, yeah, it was, it's been, it's been interesting. It'll be fun when it's done. But. But it's been, it's been a Road.

[Andy Stumpf]

How'd you make the decision to jump from DTC to having an actual storefront? Because that is actually a big jump.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, well, I think for us. So we're getting into like retail now. So we're at like Shields and all the, like the.

[Andy Stumpf]

We have those here in Montana.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're great.

[Andy Stumpf]

People think, I mean, we are in the northwest, but they get real surprised when I say things like we have malls, electricity, Internet, running water.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Airports.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's right. So we're getting into some bigger accounts. So for one, it's good to have your own store so the buyers can come in and like see it brought to life like the right way. So, you know, that's a part of it. But also like, we just feel like so many people like want to shop in person and have an in person experience. So we want to do this is like test the concept and if it goes well, then, hey, this is like, actually we're going to try to roll out like 8 to 10 more in the next couple of years. But I was like, I want to like crawl, walk, run. Like, we'll do this one with the training wheels on, like literally in our backyard. Like HQ is literally five minutes away. Our warehouse is 10 minutes away. So like all the inventory is right there. Restocks are easy if I need to shoot, you know, so that's. I was like, all right, this will be like the easiest one we do and we don't know yet. So like, let's, let's just like make all the mistakes. Yeah, so that's what we did. So we're, we're already looking at, you know, other markets to do it and then like what the rollout plan would look like and the budgeting which actually, you know, this time now I'll know.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, you know what I've determined in business though? Absolutely nobody knows what they're doing.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's what it seems, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's what it seems. They. There are people who are getting it done who don't know what they're doing and there are people who are not getting it done who don't know what they're doing. But they share a similarity. Even success. Super successful people and high up CEOs have been able to travel the world and speak publicly to a lot of Fortune 500 up to like 50 companies. At some level you will find somebody wearing a suit that exceeds your net worth. That goes. Yeah, I'm just kind of figuring this out as I go. Congratulations to you, sir. You are slaying it. Continue I think that's the way, man. I've heard, I've heard, I've never met Bezos, but I've heard him talk about the early days of Amazon. That guy didn't have it. Any idea of the architecture of what it would grow into and they just solve problems as they presented themselves.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And I think part of it is just you, you have to be willing to like, you just have to have the balls to play a hand. You know, that's really what it comes down to. I think that's the difference between, you know, guys like you and me and like anyone. Like it's just like we were just willing to fail and like we were willing to take that risk. Like I think a lot of this success is like right at the edge of risk. You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know a lot of people, I mean you could use actually I don't know the origin story of Bezos enough. But you know, a lot of people will point at Musk. He has, I wouldn't say an equal number of failures, but he certainly hasn't been hitting him out of the park on every swing.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Can you imagine trying to run a business like that? Like it's, I. It blows the, the legit, the logistics.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well like which business are you talking about? Are you talking about X? Are you talking about Tesla or.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, I was talking about Amazon too, but like either any of those, you know what I mean? It's like you can now like go on Amazon and like it's 3pm and it'll be like it'll be there by 7pm it's like how is that logistically possible? Drones that I need like I'm getting like a little dog food insert for my dog with arthritis and you have it randomly down the road and get it to me in three hours. That's ridiculous.

[Andy Stumpf]

Free shipping doesn't exist here in Montana. For clarity, we have a lot of modern day conveniences. We don't have that yet.

[Bear Hanlon]

You don't have Amazon one day you get the two day though you're probably.

[Andy Stumpf]

Get some stuff today depending on where you're ordering from and what.

[Bear Hanlon]

You're such tough living out here, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

It is mag. I, I agree with the in person shopping. Perfect example. The stuff that you sent my wife, which dude, she is so thankful we were talking about it last night because she was asking about who the guest was and she is hesitant to order online from brands that she hasn't physically touched. And I've had the same experience too. Like this is My pant size, and it shows up and you're like, what did you measure this with? Like, did I miss centimeters to inches on this thing? But then once you find a brand that you know you fit in, then I can shop online all I want to.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep. But finding first one.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Yeah. And, man, that's a tough jump. Plus, you're just absolutely flooded with options. God help you if you do a Google search for women's compression pants. Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Well, even. Even on our site, there's, like, There's a hundred options. You know, I mean, do that to yourself. Exactly, too. I know.

[Andy Stumpf]

I feel like gray is a good color.

[Bear Hanlon]

And navy blue, well, that's for dudes. It would work. Not for the ladies.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm not so sure we'd. You should sell the ladies. I think that's way harder. I've talked with people at Origin so many times about jeans.

[Bear Hanlon]

It is harder, but they buy a lot more than we do.

[Andy Stumpf]

This is.

[Bear Hanlon]

The guys like us will, like. We'll wear the same, like, shitty T shirt for, like, literally five years. And I think the only time.

[Andy Stumpf]

Minimum.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Like, the only time we get rid of stuff is if, like, our significant other does. Which, you know. Yeah. Is. That's really it.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I dress myself usually when the sun is still down. Based off what's on the top of the pile.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

And later in the day, I'll look and be like, ooh, that doesn't match at all. And I don't care. I continue on with my day.

[Bear Hanlon]

But, yeah, girls are a little bit more picky, but they like to buy a lot. They're more, you know, just. They're bigger consumers in that world. You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

That's the conversation I've had with. Have you ever talked with Pete?

[Bear Hanlon]

No, I haven't. No. He's impressive guy. Yeah. I listened to one of his. He was on a podcast on one of the, like, it's called the Operators Podcast, like their business, and he was on there. I listened to his episode, and I thought he did a really good job. But I can.

[Andy Stumpf]

He will not do women's jeans, though.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, I.

[Andy Stumpf]

And my wife is on his ass, and this is what she.

[Bear Hanlon]

Did they try or was he just, like, not doing it?

[Andy Stumpf]

They are. It's interesting. For three years now, he says the same thing to her. Next year, we're definitely doing that. So that is the continuing thing. But he will say men's jeans generally are based off a template. Women's jeans go into 20 to 30 different templates. My wife's argument which aligns with yours is, hey, man, not only will we buy jeans for ourselves, but we're going to add stuff to the cart to soften the blow for our significant other.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because when the bag shows up and some of if it's for you, it's less likely we're gonna get. Exactly, yeah, they buy more stuff. It might be more difficult, but I think in the end. Yeah, well, for the born primitive cells. Do you guys know men versus women?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, it's about, I think it's about 50, 50 now. It was actually more heavily skewed women. It was probably like 65, 35 there for a while. But then, you know, since we've introduced our training shoe, which is, you know, we have for men and women, but then like tactical and outdoor, that like, you know, really brought the balance back to like 50, 50.

[Andy Stumpf]

God, you're a psycho. To go into the tactical space.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, yeah, I know. Well, dude, I was just sick of getting stuff like, you know, the stuff we were getting issued. Some of it was just trash.

[Andy Stumpf]

Just, just write a check for an $800 CRY Precision and save up for the bottoms.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe they'll do a payment plan for me.

[Andy Stumpf]

Can you imagine? I, I, I enjoyed the, I'm not talking shit about cry the because I actually personally wasn't writing the check. Yeah, imagine. God, I would love to see the total bottom line on a contract like that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, well, even, even just, you know, they own multicam rights, so they get a, any multicam. It's like even their, their competitors are making money on that, are selling multicam. You know what I mean? So I mean they have a great business and obviously when like the g wat kicked off, that was just like, you know what I heard? And I don't know if this is true, but this is just what I heard and it's brilliant if it is. Apparently they took like a fashion designer from Brooklyn and like handed them like a pair of like, like op pants and they were like, make this look, make these look cool.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, whoever that, you know the number one rule.

[Bear Hanlon]

Whoever. Exactly. And whoever that designer is, like, they should cut a check for, you know, a million dollars because he or she killed it. Because they are, I mean, the OG like look of that, that pant because it's so identifiable, you know, with the knees and like, you see, you can see them from a mile away and know what brand it is. And that's like a really good trait for any brand.

[Andy Stumpf]

It did improve the design too. I mean, what Year did you go.

[Bear Hanlon]

Through buds that was 2014 and 15.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, God, yeah. So you were way later. I was like 90s. Okay. We're talking knee pads that you would get from Home Depot.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like the double strap around the.

[Bear Hanlon]

Around the back.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, nice leg. So when I saw my. The first time I ever got a.

[Bear Hanlon]

Pair of cries, I was at the internal knee pad. You were like, this is.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm looking at it and like, you mean I don't have to go to Home Depot for deployment and get some tiling Knee pad.

[Bear Hanlon]

The same ones the guys laying tile with?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Not only can I go on target, but I can also fix your backsplash as well in your sink. So to me, I looked at those and I'm. I remember I was at the east coast and it was a pair of AOR ones, the desert digi one. They look different than everybody else, so I had to have those.

[Bear Hanlon]

Those are sick.

[Andy Stumpf]

They were. God, they were awesome.

[Bear Hanlon]

I found one in a dermo bin once with like a blown out crotch. But I was still like, I'll take.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, fix that, stitch it up. But to me, I looked at that. Pockets in the right place. They were. You know, I could actually have seen them bringing in somebody from the fashion world because the original BDU bottoms were so baggy and those things were. We're not going to say skinny jeans, but they were a lot closer than the bdu. You can move though, man. It was the first time I had saw stretch stuff in the right places. The wicking material on the frog tops with just the camo on the sleeves.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

And thankfully I wasn't writing a check for it because at the time I think I was an E5 and would not have been able to pay for it. But damn, they. I would love to know the total amount of money that the government wrote to either Cry or one of its subsidiaries along the way. And again.

[Bear Hanlon]

Or any multi cam contract.

[Andy Stumpf]

No Shade.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Congratulations to you.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, they killed it, man. You got to give them credit. But yeah, we just saw an opportunity there. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

What did you change about it? How did you try to.

[Bear Hanlon]

When I got my load out, when I like got to my team, it was all. It was the Patagonia loadout. So I don't know if you ever got.

[Andy Stumpf]

No, I never did. People don't realize that Patagonia, although the founder is very openly, I'm not going to say anti military, but they had an entire military arm and they did.

[Bear Hanlon]

It through like, and I don't know the Specific, but it was like, through a subs, like, a different. It was like.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because from my understanding is the founder did not want it directly.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

With.

[Bear Hanlon]

So that one angered me too. Like, the gear wasn't that great. Especially the pants. The pants. The OP pants were trash. It was, like, all nylon. There was no stretch anywhere. The knee pads were no good. So that kind of, like, planted a seed of, like, all right. Because we were doing fitness for all the time. Obviously, I'm active duty, so, like, I'm. I can't do it all. But I was like, all right, when I eventually have more time, like, I'm going to take a swing at this. And so that's what we. We did. And I was like, I just want to build, like, an OP pant that, like, is built for, like, an athlete. Like, we need to, you know, keep. That needs to be, like, human performance needs to be the number one priority here. So, like, if a guy needs to, like, climb a caving ladder or jump a fence or take off sprinting, like, he needs to feel like. You know what I mean? Like, he can move. Like, it's a performance pain that's secondary.

[Andy Stumpf]

He needs to look good.

[Bear Hanlon]

That too. Yes. And I think, you know, I think we got both. So we got. I mean, I. I got lucky because we have so many guys that can, like, test the prototype.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, you're kind of right down the.

[Bear Hanlon]

Road and, you know, obviously, having. Having been the end consumer at one point, you could try it on yourself.

[Andy Stumpf]

And, like, nope, this needs to change.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

But then get to the 90th, 90th percent solution.

[Bear Hanlon]

The. The challenge is as, you know, personal preference. Everyone has their, like. Oh. So you'd get some feedback where it's like, all right, we're not doing that because you're one of, like, 15 that would want that random little thing.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, you didn't want a custom Zen pouch.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. So, you know, after, like, I don't know, nine or 10 iterations, you know, we find we kind of found the perfect balance and we took some. The same principles. So we have, like, the stretch fabric around the knee, but, like, we have, like, a reinforced knee with, like, nylon, because obviously we don't want, like, you to get holes the knee but still have mobility. And then, like, you know, around the butt, like, there's a stretch panel in the back like you've seen before. That helps too. But then they dry really fast. They're a lot more lightweight. And because I didn't think we needed that heavy material for the entire pant, you know what I mean? To me, I agree.

[Andy Stumpf]

Have you ever found a pair of pants that solves all problems?

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. You gotta, you gotta sacrifice.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or have a goddamn storage locker where you have like where we just walked. Right. We were talking about the. What's the thicker version of the pants I'm wearing?

[Bear Hanlon]

Just the regular frontiers. And you have the frontier lights on. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And the lights f. Fantastic for summer. But guess what? I have the heavier weight version too. In a few weeks those will. Does it cost a little bit more? Yes. Do departments and agencies have the budget for that type of stuff? Yes. I hate it when people try to create the multi tool of any product.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because that just means everything sucks at everything.

[Bear Hanlon]

You. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Here's a Phillips head screwdriver that doesn't have prongs deep enough to fit into a screw. But look at, you're like, God damn it, here's a knife you can't get into. And you'll likely cut your finger off trying to open or close. Like, I hate everything. Oh, and by the way, it weighs eight pounds. Yeah, I hate it.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's, that's a great, that's a great analogy for, for like performance apparel. It really is. Because you do have to say, all right, what is the real like, what's the main wardrobe?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, you need a wardrobe.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And people who professionally, specifically professional arms, and I'll extend that to first responders and law enforcement spend a little bit extra. And there's nothing that feels better than having gear that is purpose designed and is working with you instead of against you. Does it cost a little bit more sometimes? Sure. Skip Starbucks for a month. Yeah. And you're good, you'll be good, you'll be fine.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And we had the same approach with the outdoor stuff too because you know, you get your full like outdoor loadout and the, the light bulb moment for me was like when we were up in Alaska and you know, you do like that last ftx, it's like three days long and you got like a little fire team and then you like join up as a squad and then, you know what I mean? And it rained literally the entire time. We were there in August. We were there in August. I don't think, I don't think it like didn't rain once. So you, you know, you're your rain shell, you know, the entire time. You have like a, a ridiculous, like, I mean, I don't know what was in the rucksack, you know, 80 pound. Like it was like a three day pack.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Just nonsensical gear.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And it's all soaked, so you're just, you know, you're just. You're just slugging it out like a. Like a student, just, you know, you don't give a. At that point. But, you know, you're going up and down. You know, obviously these mountains in. In the. The rain gear didn't stretch. It was just like a real thick shell that, like, had no performance attributes at all. It was. It was Gore Tex, but it was just like the really thick stuff. It's like, all right, there's gotta be a better way to do this. Right? So things like stretch rain gear, you know what I mean? It's like, if you're in that situation, like, you can't. You gotta be able to move. You know what I mean? So we took the same approach. And do you know Aaron Snyder?

[Andy Stumpf]

Not well. I have crossed paths with him years ago at a rifle shooting event, of all things. I know he's a huge bow hunter. We were up at a. It was a SIG event. I was familiar with him before, but it's the only time we've actually ever shared time and spoke. And I actually haven't seen him or heard from him since.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, no, he's. He's kind of spearheading your guys. Outdoor line, right?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. So he, he actually has a decent apparel background. So he was at Kafaru and where, you know, they make packs. Yep. But he had a really good apparel background, believe it or not. And I won't. I'll be purposely vague on this one, but he has worked with some military units as a contractor, and in some ways. So I got introduced to him through that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Interesting.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, we can talk about that offline, but so I was introduced in there. Hey, this guy's super legit. He's like the best in the industry. So he helped us kind develop the outdoor line because, like, I knew. I knew enough to get it to, I'd say 70%, you know, just. I mean, obviously with our, like, it's. It wasn't like I was this avid outdoorsman, but I understood, like the layering system.

[Andy Stumpf]

But we were outdoorsman adjacent.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. Like, that wasn't, you know, so I knew I could at least tee it up.

[Andy Stumpf]

And.

[Bear Hanlon]

And then, you know, we had a couple guys helping me with it, but we got. We would give it to Aaron and we'd say, aaron, wear this in the field. And he was spending, you know, 180, 200 days a year in the field. So I was like, all right, if he can validate it in the field. Then like, he, he has ultimate say on all design features. I'm just gonna like, you know, kind of get him teed up with our product developer and like, let him take it from there. So he would take like, for example, like our rain jacket and rain gear. He'll take it up to BC for like a six week mountain goat hunt, you know what I mean? And come back and like, hey, we got to change this. You know what I mean? So to get that like real feedback in the field was pretty sweet. And, and obviously there's other great outdoor companies that make really Gucci nice gear. So like, you know, I wasn't gonna say we were gonna like, like fill a niche there, but we just thought it was an opportunity to be another player in that space.

[Andy Stumpf]

How do you thread the needle on the operational stuff with the camo patterns? Do you just literally go to an engineer and say, hey, I want it to kind of look like this, but I don't want to infringe on ip We.

[Bear Hanlon]

So we haven't done any of our own camo yet. Introducing family freedom from T Mobile. We'll pay off four phones up to $3200 and give you four free phones all on America's largest 5G network.

[Andy Stumpf]

Visit t mobile.com family freedom.

[Bear Hanlon]

Up to.

[Andy Stumpf]

800 per line via virtual prepaid card. Typically takes 15 days.

[Bear Hanlon]

Free phone via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement. Example Apple iPhone 16, 128 gigs 829.99 eligible trade in.

[Andy Stumpf]

Example iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified.

[Bear Hanlon]

Credits end and balance due.

[Andy Stumpf]

If you pay off early or cancel.

[Bear Hanlon]

Contact us kind of wanted to. We've kicked it around, but the first.

[Andy Stumpf]

Cameo seems tough, man.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think it would be that tough. I think if you got like a good like art guy, you could like just make one up, you know, I mean, and I think, you know, you wouldn't be at any risk of infringing on anyone else's like, if it was truly unique. Yeah. You know what I mean? But the only camo we've done for the outdoor line, we just did the bottomland, which has been, you know, people have been really stoked on it. Has kind of like a cult following.

[Andy Stumpf]

They just pay a licensing fee.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, you do. And it actually they were very reasonable to work with.

[Andy Stumpf]

Do you pay per item or do you work.

[Bear Hanlon]

I think you do it through the fabric.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. The cubic or whatever.

[Bear Hanlon]

Cubic yard. Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's pretty reasonable, you know, you do the same thing with multicam. So they have.

[Andy Stumpf]

I feel like the price might be. Oh my God, that period and comma might be slightly more to the left.

[Bear Hanlon]

I mean, I'm not like super savvy on it, but I mean, I think some of, some of these fabrics, I think it's like 60 bucks, like, like a, like a cubic yard, you know what I mean? And it's like, imagine like doing like, that's why you see these rain jackets that are 600 bucks. You know, it's like, it's crazy.

[Andy Stumpf]

What else are you gonna do? You'd have to MSRP it at that just to make your money.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And then, and then your cost of goods is just so high because you know what I mean? It's just so. But yeah, so we did that and then we have, you know, we have multi cam coming for all of our tactical. That'll come out in, in Q1.

[Andy Stumpf]

So which version of multi cam? I've seen the regular version.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll just be really wild. Yeah. And then we're actually, we got some, these shoes coming out. I got the black multicam ones on, but that's like a high top shoe. We're making that. That'll be next year. But yeah, but we've thought about our own camo. We just haven't pulled a trigger on it yet. But I do think there's like a real value to that because I think the, the advantage is if you see a Kuyu jacket, a Sika jacket, you immediately know the brand.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

That camo is like their identifier. It's very unique. And so like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of value to that. If you can, you know, create enough traction in the space where you become identifiable. That's like, you know, metric for success.

[Andy Stumpf]

What are you aiming for? What's your long term target with Born Primitive?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, we're building this HQ now. You know, it's going to be 52,000 square feet facility, really. I mean, we put a lot into it.

[Andy Stumpf]

You'll outgrow that within a year. But plan next build.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's the dude I'm already, I'm already thinking about. So Virginia beach has land the city owns and they hold on to it, but like, if you pitch them and like put together a good proposal, they will, like, if it's the right kind of case, they'll, they'll like sell it. So I'm thinking about maybe doing that next and maybe building like a couple more warehouses. This is like, you know, if Mal, the other founder, hears me, she's gonna kill me. If she, you know, if she hears this.

[Andy Stumpf]

But no, just make business plans in a silo.

[Bear Hanlon]

But as you know, it's like, you got to get so ahead of it. Yeah. And, you know, I really don't like paying landlords. You know what I mean? So if we outgrow this facility and I gotta go sign, like, four more leases in town and, like, you know what I mean? It's just like, literally your pissing money down the drain. It's a little bit.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, you're paying somebody else's mortgage.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. And I want to pay my mortgage. Yeah. So that's tough, though, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

God, that's a capital shuffle.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. You know, and it's. It's. It's risky, but the advantage is, since we're like a port city, like, with Norfolk right there, industrial space will always be, like, you know, highly sought after. So there is, like, there is a safety net. Like, all right, if this thing, you know, went up in flames, you could turn it. I would just, you know, you know, immediately get it leased out to just someone who needed, like, you know, warehouse spacing.

[Andy Stumpf]

What are you thinking, though? Retail store in every state? 50, 100. Like, how. I mean, I want pie in the sky. Yeah. Again, without your business partner here. Let's just set the strategy.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Solo. Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

Over a coffee.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

In Montana.

[Andy Stumpf]

How big would you. How big would you want to go?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, you know, I want to. I want to keep growing it to. I mean. I mean, I don't know. I want to get to a billion dollar valuation. That is my. That is my, like, overzealous, just team guy mentality.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, I'll give you that right now. Nobody knows how the evaluation has come. I swear to God. Numbers again. Going back to business, and you start peeking behind the curtains that are behind both you and I. You're like, hey, man, what are you doing? The guy's like, oh, you caught me. I'm not sure, but I'm figuring it out. What are you guys worth? 17 billion.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

What's that number based on? I don't know, but it sounds good.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'll give you. You're worth a billion dollars right now.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm not saying you're liquid.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. It's hypothetical.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

You're.

[Andy Stumpf]

You're cash poor, asset rich. It's fine.

[Bear Hanlon]

And that', honestly, because I think about that a lot. I'm like, all right, is this. Is this just ego or is It. Is it good? You have like a random number that you're striving for just like, just for the hell of it. I don't know, I go, I go back and forth with it. Here's.

[Andy Stumpf]

This is a good litmus I found for goals. Do you have a portion of yourself that is concerned that you're not capable of achieving it?

[Bear Hanlon]

No, no, I think, I think we can get there.

[Andy Stumpf]

Then that number's too small. Yeah, well, I think a true like long term vision is pick something where you're like, damn, yeah, 50, 50 at best. So I think you need to. I mean, why not 5 billion?

[Bear Hanlon]

I mean. Well, here's the thing.

[Andy Stumpf]

Scares the out of you. I think you're in the right spot.

[Bear Hanlon]

I think a billion does. You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, because I'm changing your answer now, sir.

[Bear Hanlon]

I know to get there, the amount of. I'm gonna have to shovel and all the, like, you know, here's the thing. We're. We're a pretty decent sized company now and, you know, it's gone well, but we bootstrapped the whole thing, you know, like for the first eight years I was active duty. You know what I mean? Like, it was.

[Andy Stumpf]

Why did you waste your time in the SEAL team?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, I loved it, man. You know, like.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, but you're doing app stuff before.

[Bear Hanlon]

Just a couple months before I. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, so I started it thinking about it for a while before a little bit.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, I was kind of doing product development in 2013, late 2012, early 2013, and I went to OCS in June of 2014, and we started Born Primitive in March of 2014.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I don't think you wasted your time at all. Obviously that's a joke, but damn, dude, I mean, I'm.

[Bear Hanlon]

The entire time active duty, I had two jobs.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's what I'm saying. Where do you think Born Primitive would be today if you had just dove headlong into it and spent that time focusing on bp?

[Bear Hanlon]

I don't know, man. That's a good question.

[Andy Stumpf]

Not that I think you should have done that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, I think there's an argument to be made that it obviously could have grown way faster. But I also feel like me going through the experience that I did helped set me up for like a bigger vision for like just being able to like lead a team and you know what I mean, just the stuff we're exposed to in the leader, you know, just all of that, you know, what value to put on that. I don't know. You know, eight years is A long time to have, like to. For a side hustle.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, I love how you call it a side hustle. I feel like all of your bandwidth when you weren't working was absorbed by it.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, it was. Yeah. And that's the.

[Andy Stumpf]

We'll just call it a hustle. Like maybe not on the side.

[Bear Hanlon]

So Mal, our co founder. So we were married at the time and we still run the business together, have a great relationship. And she's a. She crushes it, dude. She's. She went from being a dental hygienist to just this business savage, like overnight, just by necessity because we went out to California and like her license didn't transfer. So.

[Andy Stumpf]

You're proving my point. People are out there, they just figured.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And she. And so she was like, you know, the ones keeping the trains around on time. But the early days, our marketing plan was just go to every CrossFit event we could and just set up a booth because like a lot of times, like 100 bucks or it'd be free because they just want to have vendors there. So it looks cool. So she would sign us up for these weekend events when I was going through. But so I would, I would like, I would limp my ass through the doorway on Friday night because I lived off base because, you know, I was married. And she'd say, hey, don't get too comfortable. Like, we got to pack the Jeep. We're going to ANAHEIM Tomorrow for CrossFit, whatever.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I'm like, your weekend?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Yes. So imagine this, right? And I would, I had no say because I was gone all week. And she, you know, she would just be finding these events. So we, It'd be nine o' clock at night on a Friday night after a full week in Buds, you know, and we're. We're packing the Jeep and then we're hitting the road 5:30 in the morning. And then, you know, we'd come back and then we have to re inventory everything in the garage. You know, you'd work all day and you're on your feet talking with people. There's probably a hundred people. It wasn't. These weren't big events.

[Andy Stumpf]

How fun is it to have a garage designed for cars fully consumed? That's how I started with the podcast Merch. Yeah. My wife would be like, what. What are on these shelves? I'm like, well, those are T shirts that I thought were an amazing design that nobody wanted. So that's just money sitting on the shelf. That reminds me how much Light it on Fire, dude. Is there Anything worse than sitting looking at non moving inventory?

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh yeah, dude.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's hard to describe unless you've actually put your money in. You do absorb the upfront cost. Like this is going to be a banger. And then you wonder where the donation, like goodwill donations. Yeah, like maybe we could take a tax write off on this one.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. If you're in a consumer goods business, we've all been there. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

It can kill you stuffing tens of thousands of polymailers in the garage off time. That's how I started to.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And yeah we did that. That was us for, we think, you know, for about five years, you know, so. But it was like, you know, and you can relate to this when you're in ult, you know, I mean like.

[Andy Stumpf]

You do like a full unit level training, you do like a full day.

[Bear Hanlon]

At Shaws, you know, I mean you remember as a new guy it's like extra high stress because you're still proving yourself. You're get, you're getting there early, getting the, the beer mess good and all the stuff and then you know, you, you're, you know, more scrutiny in the house because you're new and all this. So I remember doing like you do a full day at Shaws, you know, get their day runs right into night runs. You're there until like 10 o' clock at night, you get back to the Marriott, it's like 11:30, you got your crock pot meal ready to go.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yep.

[Bear Hanlon]

And everyone's gonna go to bed and I would get, you know, Mal would say hey, call me. And she'd have like, you know, an hour of questions for me of like, hey, this happened, I need a decision on this. And then I'd open the laptop and have a bunch of emails waiting for me and it's you know, one in the morning and I, you know, we're meeting in the lobby at 5:30 to go to the gym as a platoon.

[Andy Stumpf]

That is an experience like that that is legit for me. My life has been a little bit more segmented. I kind of fell from what, you know, I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a wheel. It's like this rectangle that just breaks shit as it falls over itself. But it was a little bit more segmented. I was able to focus on one thing at a time. Yeah, it sounds like you entered into the CrossFit space right about when I was leaving because I worked for CrossFit HQ from 2006 to, I think I quit in 2014.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, we, we overlapped I think barely Because I remember I actually ran into you. I think it was like a Killcliffe part after party at one of the games that I ran into you because I knew of you. But yeah, we caught it. We got lucky because like we entered CrossFit. That was the perfect like, like organization to attach to. To grow like an organic brand.

[Andy Stumpf]

And it was a good time to attach as well. I have almost no insight into it anymore, but from what I am hearing, I. It seems as if it might have gone to the top of the bell curve and maybe just over the other.

[Bear Hanlon]

Side a little bit. Yeah. Oh, big time. Yeah. I'll be curious what they do with the sale here.

[Andy Stumpf]

I heard that it was actually no longer being potentially purchased by the group, which. Yeah, it seems to me that maybe they got to look at the books.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And black and white is a way different story than just sitting down over a beer with somebody. Looks like you can only hide things until you start looking at the piano.

[Bear Hanlon]

As old as time, man. You sometimes, you know, eventually we might do a PE deal, so I can't talk too much, but like, you know, private equity gets a hold of something, man, and you got a bunch of dudes in suits from New York that think they know how to run a business. And especially with CrossFit as, you know, like, it's different, man. Yeah. And as soon as you like, you know, you know, kind of go away from like what made it unique in the first place, you're.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I don't know how you recover that. If you make that turn right, you're at a fork in the road. And the traditional crossfit mentality that was part of the origin, that grew it to where it was, would align with taking a right and you take a left. I don't know how you get back on the road.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Some diehard people that are probably likely very invested from their personal net worth perspective or whatever, they have that, you know, the foundation of their life. They're probably not going to go anywhere because they may not have a choice. But everybody else who has a choice, dude, that's how you shed market share.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Big time. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I barely like this. Somebody sent me a text. I didn't even realize that the CrossFit games had happened. I got a bunch of texts. Unfortunately, when that guy died, which was. Man, there's some stories around that and how I am shocked that that was actually the first time that that happened because I physically been there and almost watched somebody die in the ocean. A good friend of mine. Jeez.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

But also know how to swim. 70% of the Earth is water. People swim. And yeah, it's. I'll be really curious to see where it goes. There's a lot of seems to be crossfit adjacent or functional fitness companies, activities, routines, competitions that seem to be picking up the torch and running full speed.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, yeah, they're. They're taking advantage of the, of the vacuum.

[Andy Stumpf]

Why would they not?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And that's kind of what CrossFit did in the vacuum of like chest and tries, back and buys, which was literally the training model when I. So I got into the teams in 97 and you know the deal as a new guy, I didn't have a name nor did I exist. I sat in the corner and shut my mouth until they stuffed me into a locker and filled it with shaving cream. I don't support hazing, but good times, I believe it has its place. The intent behind it is what actually matters. But I just would follow. I'm like, that dude is jacked. I knew nothing about strength and conditioning because, I mean, I went through buds when I was 18, straight out of high school. Not as if you're going to get like a robust understanding of strength and conditioning in high school. Buds for people. You basically come out of there broken, not built up into this machine. You'll have hip flexor problems and probably neck and shoulder problems the rest of your life. And so I get to a team and there's these dudes that just look like they're chiseled at a marble. So I just follow them into the gym. What's he doing? Monday is chest and tries. Understood. Tuesday is back and buys. Wednesday is leg day. And by that I mean you run on the beach with your shirt off and you Repeat that for 10 years and you got great show.

[Bear Hanlon]

You're gonna look great.

[Andy Stumpf]

You got great show muscles, but you don't have very good go muscles.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, that's funny, dude. Yeah, but that's.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's what it was. And then this program shows up of, okay, hey, you look good. But there was just. It was funny too. You could just watch on the Internet these dudes who look like that being destroyed by women at the original CrossFit HQ building. You're like, what's going on here? Then you go into the gym, of course, at night when nobody else is in there, because you need to make sure that you're not going to get destroyed in front of your friends. And you realize, oh, boy, I've been training completely wrong this entire time. And I ended up losing a ton of weight but being way more capable. It was wild.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, no, it helped me a lot because I competed at the games the year before.

[Andy Stumpf]

Psycho.

[Bear Hanlon]

I was training with some guys so that were NSW candidates as well because you know, they have like the little motivators that like are, you know, mentors that are in different parts of the US and so I was in Indianapolis at the time and I hit that guy up, you know, he was like a former CEO. I said, hey, is there anyone in Indianapolis training for the same thing I'm doing? So he linked me up with a crew of guys. So we would meet at the track every morning, like 6am and then we go straight over the pool and we were doing the same track workouts. We found like a track coach who was helping us for free to just write our workouts and stuff. But they were getting so much faster than like I was, I was a dog runner as it was and I was bigger, you know, because I was a college linebacker. So I was like at the time, £240 still am.

[Andy Stumpf]

Buds is not meant for people.

[Bear Hanlon]

No, it's not. And I went through, you know, low 230, so that was 150 pounds six.

[Andy Stumpf]

I graduated high school six foot, 150. People don't believe me. I gained weight.

[Bear Hanlon]

150 would have been freaking awesome. I would have, I would have traded places with you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Hold on to your pants here. I came out of it 150, 155.

[Bear Hanlon]

Really. Oh, you bulked up. You bulked up.

[Andy Stumpf]

I was in a bulking phase. It was cuffing season.

[Bear Hanlon]

But so one of the guys in our group, he was getting really fit and, and I would go to the YMC at night and just do like bench and weighted pull ups and push ups, like just that kind of stuff, you know. And I'm like, I'm doing the exact same workout as these guys. I'm doing massages, I'm doing everything I supposed to do. Good nutrition and like, how am I not getting, you know. So I asked Brian at the time, he said I'm doing this thing called CrossFit. And he's like, you should come, you know, come to a class one night, then you can jump in. And so I, I went there and it happened to be a super competitive gym that, I mean, I didn't know the difference but it was, it was the, I think it was the 12.1 open workout, which I think was the snatch one where you do 95 pounds for 30 reps.

[Andy Stumpf]

This is what you Jumped into.

[Bear Hanlon]

So. But I didn't know what the open was. So I walk in. It's like the 5:30 class. And this is a super competitive gym. They would always send multiple teams to regionals. And, like. And it was like the Friday Night Lights thing.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

You know, everyone's like, surrounding the gym and, like, screaming at everyone. And they had heats on the board. And I went to the owner and I was like, hey, you know, I was a college football player, so I know how to do this movement snatch because it was just like 95 pounds for 30 reps, 135 pounds for 30 reps. And then if you get to grace.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is that grace or there's another Isabelle? Okay.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Grace is the clean and jerky.

[Bear Hanlon]

And then. And then if you get to 165. And then I think it ended at 205, which very few people got to. But I was. And it was like 11 minutes. You just go. And I was like, well, I mean, can I jump in? So we did it. And it was. And I was like, this is, you know, this is for. I was like, I found my people. Like, these, these people. How do I not know about this? No, I. I didn't know this was not a normal, like, CrossFit evening class. I just thought like, this is how it is every night.

[Andy Stumpf]

How'd your body feel the next day?

[Bear Hanlon]

I mean, I think it was pretty rough. I'm sure my technique was. So we did. I did the Open, and then I remember I came back for like the next week because, you know, it was five weeks.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

And I'm like, oh, well, what's the workout this week? And they all started laughing. They're like, oh, no, no, this is like once a year kind of thing. And I was like, you know what I mean? Because I thought this was like every week everyone floods in and we scream at each other. And I was like, this is for. I'd like, I found my people. Like, how. How did I not know about this? So anyway, I. I ended up. I joined their competition team, like, on the weekends just to be an extra body. And, you know, I didn't know any of the skills. Like, I couldn't do muscle ups or handstand push ups or anything like that. Could barely climb a rope. But I was strong. And, you know, I had the base of fitness from, like, being a football player. So once they taught me the skills, I end up being on the regional team. And then we got second. So we went to the CrossFit Games that year. It was like my first year in.

[Andy Stumpf]

CrossFit's or athletes, man.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, you just got to figure it out. You know, I remember I was getting muscle ups during the Open like the, the, the to qualify like the next. And it was like, you know, that was 13.5 was like the, the last workout that had muscle ups. And I had like three days to kind of figure it out because it was like, you know, you got to the rings I think last it was like how many you could get.

[Andy Stumpf]

God, it was so nice to stop working for that company and go into the games because those athletes, you just sit there and watch them work. And like I am such a piece of.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, particularly once you, when you've participate in it, you have the basis of comparison. Yeah, there's a lot of skills that you don't appreciate. How hard it really is. You know, I mean like if a guy's doing like surfing like a crazy wave in Hawaii, like I, I acknowledge it's hard, but I can't comprehend it because I don't surf.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or the fear associated with dropping in on a five story building.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

Whereas like with CrossFit, like when you see a girl rip 20 straight unbroken muscle ups and you're like, okay, that's insane. You know, because you've, you know, you've done your set of four and barely, you know what I mean? Chicken wing in the last one.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's how I used to work out. I mean they working for headquarters. Those people would be around all the time and of course what do they want to do? Workout. I'm just like, I don't like you or working out anymore. I don't like finishing 17 minutes after you do on a four minute workout.

[Bear Hanlon]

While you clap for me.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, you can do it.

[Bear Hanlon]

I'm like, don't need that.

[Andy Stumpf]

You don't walk away. I'm gonna strip this barbell of the weights and beat you to death with it.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's good. Good thing they don't have a goon squad in CrossFit.

[Andy Stumpf]

2 and 2 buds at 240. It was about 2:30 that the curriculum is not designed for.

[Bear Hanlon]

No, it was not. I mean the only advantages was like logs and then like, you know, obviously like with weight on your back or on your head, like. Yeah, it doesn't affect you as much, but anything. I mean, I mean obviously. Oh course running. I mean obviously everything's running. I mean that was just like I was fighting for my life on those, those four milers and you were an O. It was, yeah. I remember I failed the first run we got out there. So I went. So I was at ocs and they didn't like, like at ocs you do like the, the, the one hour PT at like four in the morning and it's like, it's garbage. It's like calisthenics. So I, I went from being like a CrossFit Games athlete. My, I was 230 pounds. My mile time was like a 5:10. I was just super fit, you know, I could clean a jerk360. I was a freak because that's all I did was train. And then I get to OCS and it's 12 weeks and you're eating like crap and you're doing like this shitty PT once a day. And I remember I was like pushing the, the bunks together and doing dips on like the bed posts and doing.

[Andy Stumpf]

The, the four count jumping jacks. Weren't doing anything.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. So I, so I got out there. You know, I've been preparing, I've been preparing for this for years. Yeah, I, now I show up, I'm out of shape. And then they told me I was gonna have six or seven weeks to class up. So I was like, all right, good. I can like get, get out on the sand and get my legs back and practice the O course. And all these academy Os had been there since like May. So they like have five dive knives in their garage. Pre sharpen, they got pre made helmet. They're like so set up. They've done the O course a million times. They're all in great shape because they've, you know, were bred for this. At the acade, me and I roll in and then I had to class up in like two days. They, they called me on a Friday. I was at my, down in Imperial beach and they're like, hey, we changed our mind. You're actually classing up. We need you here right now. And I went to like the airfield, you know, on the, on the, and, and mustered up and it was like, all right, we, we roll Monday. Damn. So we did that first like, you know, four mile run where they, they extend it like it's, it's more than four miles.

[Andy Stumpf]

That never happens.

[Bear Hanlon]

And as an instructor, I can tell.

[Andy Stumpf]

You that never happens. It's always precisely exactly what it says on the paper.

[Bear Hanlon]

And then so half the class failed. And then me and one other O failed. And like I remember the like the class oic, like the lt, like pulled me and him aside and was like, hey, as officers, you guys can't fail these. And like I'm just gonna shoot you straight.

[Andy Stumpf]

You.

[Bear Hanlon]

Neither of you are gonna make it. Because if you fail the first one, like, you're.

[Andy Stumpf]

How would he know that?

[Bear Hanlon]

I don't know.

[Andy Stumpf]

This was the student.

[Bear Hanlon]

No, no, no. This was. This was like the.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, the phase.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, the phase.

[Andy Stumpf]

I thought you meant your class, so I see.

[Bear Hanlon]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's a little bit of hubris.

[Bear Hanlon]

No, I know. No, no. It was like a, you know, like a cllt. But I remember the phase, Officer. Yeah. Phase. Oh, yeah. And. But I remember thinking, man, like, this is like, worst case scenario because, like, I literally trained for two years for this, but I'm. I'm now out of shape. I'm the most out of shape I've ever been. And this is the show. Like, the show starts, like, you know, Monday.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So that was. That was rough. I had to fight for my life. And then you start getting your legs, like. I think by, like, second phase, you get. I was, like, back in shape. But, man, those runs, like, the guys would make fun of me because it's like the 5am and I'm, like, warming up, doing calisthenics, when, like, all the young guys are just, like, yawning, like, all right, let's do this. You know what I mean? They can cruise a 28 in their sleep. And I'm like, this is like, my life right here.

[Andy Stumpf]

What was the experience like going through as an O? I went through as an E2. Completely invisible.

[Bear Hanlon]

Nice, Seaman Apprentice.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's what it says on the 212 plaque. Seaman apprentice Stump.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

I was on the island in third phase, and a third phase instructor stopped me and said, are you part of this class? And at that moment, I know that I had been successful.

[Bear Hanlon]

The ultimate gray man.

[Andy Stumpf]

Totally. They had already told us what teams we're going to, and he was like, like, what are you doing here? I'm like, who? Yeah, Instructor Gutierrez. You know, I'm part of the class. He's like, what? I've never seen you before.

[Bear Hanlon]

That is the best compliment ever. That's freaking hilarious. That was not a third phase for.

[Andy Stumpf]

A dude with a bar on their helmet.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it was. It's. You know, obviously, there's a little bit more scrutiny, but as you know, it's. Overall, it's the same experience. You know, they like to bust a.

[Andy Stumpf]

Little bit more responsibility, and by that, it's basically head counts and time.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. But I was never, like, the class OIC because, like, I was the most junior because I Got there, I commissioned last year. So they were kind of going by like the actual commission date. Yeah. So I was never really in like a, like a hard leadership. I was never the class oic, which obviously that in the LPO is like kind of a shitty draw because you're, you know what I mean, you're in.

[Andy Stumpf]

Charge of everything that too much facetime with the instructors. Yeah, they know you by sight. They don't even need to see you.

[Bear Hanlon]

Up with the, you know, your notes and they tell you what the next thing is and all that. So I, I kind of got lucky there. And then my. Our class OIC was a Princeton grad, so, you know, I was a Yale grad. So I really wanted to keep that hidden, like, because I was like, as soon as they find out.

[Andy Stumpf]

Enemies.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, I just figured if they. Well, yeah, we're rivals. But I, I figured once the instructors figured out I had like an Ivy League degree, there would be a connotation of like, oh, he's some like, you know what I mean? Like snobby. Even though like I'm from a Midwest guy, like public school, you know what I mean? And. But the ROIC was a Princeton guy, so he took all the heat, you know what I mean? Like as the pr. And then I remember third phase, they figured it out and they're like, damn, are you kidding me? Like, you went to Yale? Like, you know, yada yada. I'm like, it's like. Because at one point they asked me like, where'd you go to school? And I said, small school in Connecticut. And I didn't ask a follow up question. So I was like, I didn't lie.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's a very serious answer.

[Bear Hanlon]

Stay in your circle. Stay in the circle I stayed in. You know what I mean? So. But no, it was fun, man. Obviously we got our asses handed to us like we all did, but. But you know, most fun you never want to have again, as you know. So. I didn't realize you were a phase instructor.

[Andy Stumpf]

Second phase.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, second phase.

[Andy Stumpf]

Okay. Yeah, I went back in 2006 and then I got commissioned October 1, 2008. So that was the end of my instructor time. It was interesting. I didn't want to go back. It wouldn't have been what I had chosen, especially coming from the command that I was leaving. But it was interesting applying the curriculum that we all went through. There is no randomness to it whatsoever.

[Bear Hanlon]

Super calculated.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh my God. And as a student, I remember going through thinking, why is this behavior rewarded one day and punished the Next, why is this instructor psychotic this day? And then he's asking me how my day is going, which is clearly a trap. I'm gonna lie to him. And of course, the answer to everything is just who yah Anyway.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

What's your favorite color? Who y' all struck? Or whatever. You know, it's. It's everything from whatever the answer is to go yourself to the instructor staff. It's more in the tone. It's like how people would say, sir.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like the heart. You're like, oh.

[Bear Hanlon]

Or a sarcastic Roger that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. So it was. I mean, it was interesting. But I tell you what, looking back on it, it was the most most valuable tour that I actually ended up doing. I. I think I enjoyed it in different ways. Kind of the most. Seeing the curriculum, man, it works.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

The instructors don't actually have to do anything other than apply the curriculum. And it's. I don't think it's changed that much since the 40s.

[Bear Hanlon]

It doesn't seem like it, man. Which that's why they don't need to change it. You look at like the hell week schedule, like, I'm pretty sure it's like almost to the minute. Like it hasn't changed much.

[Andy Stumpf]

It hasn't. And again, there's not randomness in there. The students think it's the biggest chaotic environment where the instructors are making stuff up. Yeah. There is a three ring binder for just about every evolution and every minute of the student's time. And you go, pull it out. Here's your ratio. Everything. Like even surf torture. Right. Which by the way, they can't call it that anymore. It's surf conditioning.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, it's okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

What they haven't changed is the evolution itself, but apparently the. What it's called is offensive and dangerous in some way.

[Bear Hanlon]

But like the cold water immersion training or something.

[Andy Stumpf]

But it's all based off of tables.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know what the students don't see is that there's a thermometer in the ocean or somebody has measured it before and they're. It's like, okay, we can keep them in for this.

[Bear Hanlon]

Air temp, water temp. You got a little. It's like a little dive table.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like you can keep them in for this long, you got to pull them out for this long. And this is the maximum number of times that you can put them in. Now, you don't have to tell the students that score. And you can say things like, I'm going to keep you in here forever, but you can't.

[Bear Hanlon]

And Some will believe it. Yeah. And quit.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's exactly right. That's exactly. Dude, we.

[Bear Hanlon]

I've told this story before. Not. Not early on a podcast, but we had some fleet returnees in our class. And, you know, they're like the senior enlisted guys, because they're like, I think. I don't know, a third class or maybe a second class. Yeah, they got the chevrons on the helmet, and before we even started, all of, like, the PTR indoc. They're talking about, like, don't quit because, like, if the fleet sucks, they just come from. The fleet is like, in undes semen or, you know, sailors or whatever. And, you know, they're talking this up for three weeks of, like. Like, they're the ones kind of giving the speech at the end of the day. And they've been through part of BUDS before, so they know more than any of we do. You know what I mean? And we go to the. The grinder for that first, you know, day one fate. First phase zero 400 grinder pt that we've all done, like, on the duck Feed.

[Andy Stumpf]

And we're all.

[Bear Hanlon]

We're all standing in formation, and we.

[Andy Stumpf]

Also all know it's coming because I know where this story is going, and it baffles me.

[Bear Hanlon]

So after hearing these guys talk up how bad the fleet was for three weeks and motivate us and say, all right, you know, don't quit. It's going to be bad. But, like, it's not as bad as the fleet. Like, you'll, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Granted, they've. They didn't make it the first time, so probably take that with a grain of salt. These guys fall out of formula. You know, we're all in the duck feet. It's like 0350. We're all. Obviously. I mean, I was terrified, because I'm like, all right, I'm fine. I'm finally here. I've been thinking about this since eighth grade, and I'm on the same feet that all these other guys have. And I know, like, from now until whenever, like, it's going to be a really hard life, and I'm choosing that. But those guys, you know, they're in the front of the class rolling formation, and they fall out of formation, and they went out, went over and rang the bell before it even started. And I remember one of the first phase instructors opens the door and, like, looks out and was like, are you effing kidding me? And then just slams the door again. And then those guys fell out, put Their helmets down and they're out. And now, like, I look over at one of the guys next to me, I'm like, dude, what do those guys know that we don't? Like, what did we sign up for? Like, we haven't even started.

[Andy Stumpf]

And they.

[Bear Hanlon]

I just. For three weeks, I had to hear them talk about, like, how bad the fleet is. And then. And they got. They're so scared that they can't even do one evolution. And then, sure enough, like, you know, five minutes later, it came on, and you're like, you know what that was? Isn't that the wild. Like, how do you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, here's what I get.

[Bear Hanlon]

They talk about being unnerving like that. That scared the shit out of me.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it was. I was. I was terrified, too. It was all I'd ever wanted to do. Granted, I was only, you know, 18 at the time, so I didn't have a lot of life experience. But then you go back as an instructor and you realize that the first day of training, and I wasn't a first phase instructor, but obviously the second phase is right by the grinder. I would say, on average, there's 10 to 20 helmets under the bell after the first day.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

What did those people think was going to happen? That's what I didn't understand. Like, you didn't. You didn't even. Like, you're. You made a meal, you put all this time and effort to get all these ingredients, you cook a meal, and then right before taking a bite, you throw it in the garbage. Why would you do that?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't understand that. And also, look, can we do a more robust exit interview? What the did you think was gonna happen on the first day? What do you think? Please write for me. Take as much time as you want. What you thought was gonna happen?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Where was the dis. What do you think you're gonna get back to your rack that night? Like. Well, that wasn't too bad.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, I didn't know what to expect, but I knew we were gonna get our dicks absolutely stomped. And it was accomplished for six months. Yeah. But I. I still never unders. I couldn't figure it out. It. Just because it's competitive to get there.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

There's more people that want to go than slots, and I don't know, it's. I guess I don't understand the headspace to a degree. And again, that's part of the curriculum as well, because that's another example of it doing its job without anybody doing anything. They just Know, the curriculum is what it is, and they make the decision before they even entered into the first gear on the first wheel.

[Bear Hanlon]

And I think it's. Guys just get in their heads on like, there's no way I can do this for the next six and a half months. So they're like, definitely. They're like, I might as well just quit now, because there's no way. You know what I mean? When obviously, you know, as you know, we just gotta. You gotta compartmentalize it and just make it to the next thing.

[Andy Stumpf]

And do you think regret from that decision comes. You think they're off the grinder or.

[Bear Hanlon]

Still while they're just probably after the warm shower and then you're in. In civilian clothes for the first time. And then I probably. It's probably immediate, you know what I mean? But I mean, it's just, it blows me away, man. We had a UFC fighter quit. We had, you know, collegiate wrestlers. I mean, you, that was the, you know. Also another unnerving part is, you know, you get there and like, the class, like, for the most part's pretty squared away and these are pretty hard dudes. So, like, when you're looking around, you're like, all right, where are they going to trim 80 here? Because, like, I can see some, maybe some younger guys that like, you know, probably shouldn't, maybe shouldn't be here. But for the most part, like, everyone here looks.

[Andy Stumpf]

Where does this come from?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of chiseled jawlines and a lot of like, you know, kids from the heartland that are like, patriot, like, who's gonna, you know what I mean? And then it does, it's, it does its job, you know, it's not great, men. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Again, I, I bet you to a portion of me wishes that they would let the instructor staff bet on students.

[Bear Hanlon]

That would be, that would be blast.

[Andy Stumpf]

No, the problem. All the instructors would be broke by the end of their tour. You cannot call.

[Bear Hanlon]

No way. You can't.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because the reality is the dude who's somewhere between 5, 9 to 6 foot and weighs about 160 pounds has a better chance than the D1 athlete. That doesn't make sense.

[Bear Hanlon]

Doesn't.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because if you were to go through the three ring binder, you're like, okay, we need a college linebacker, we need a gymnast, we need Michael Phelps, and we need this all in one person. Person. And instead some scrawny ass kid who looks like he's relatively confused every day during every evolution is just like.

[Bear Hanlon]

We had one of those. And he made it. He was 19, he was 100, probably 40 pounds soaking wet. And he was a savage fucking hard as nails. And made it just Cruise at about.

[Andy Stumpf]

60% in the pack. Not of effort, but you're about in the 60th percentile. And one day in the third phase, the instructors go, what are you doing here?

[Bear Hanlon]

They've been trying to figure that out for years.

[Andy Stumpf]

Still the instructor staff, you would have to shorten the tour there because they would be in debt.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, you would lose. That would be so much fun though.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Until you're.

[Bear Hanlon]

It would definitely present a conflict of interest. If you're like, why do you just remediate that guy for two hours by himself? It's like I need him to fail because I, I bet on the other guy.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's just faster. Fascinating. It shows you that the muscle that matters is above the shoulders, not below.

[Bear Hanlon]

Always.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I try to tell people this if you lined up most blood classes from shortest to tallest. Why we still wear UDT shorts is beyond me. But that's all they're wearing. There's some specimens, like you said, some chiseled jawline and like 16 pack tortoise shell abs. And then there's scrawny bean poles. Most of the students, I would say, are physically underwhelming from what people would think. It doesn't really reward, actually. It doesn't. It doesn't absolutely reward. Super low body fat.

[Bear Hanlon]

No.

[Andy Stumpf]

Super high muscle mass. It just. It doesn't. The water for the cold water will just. It eats those people alive.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, man, no joke. Yeah. That's why it's so interesting to see the final product. And then I think once guys get through, I think they conform to like a general look, you know?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

You know what I mean? Like the scrawny kid, five years later, he's gonna have put on £40.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, £200 in my early 20s.

[Bear Hanlon]

He'll be tatted up like it'll. They'll start looking like men, you know.

[Andy Stumpf]

Gators, flip flops, board shorts and a baggy T shirt.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's right. So orig. We're so original, so discreet.

[Andy Stumpf]

How far. What's your optical distance to spot a team guy? About 1.5 miles.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh yeah, exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, you live in VB too. Yeah, here. It's actually. There's a couple up here too. And I can still, I guess. And they're not trying to, but I just, I can tell it's almost in the way that they walk.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Or on airplanes, you know, at the gate, you know, I Mean, you kind of size each other up.

[Andy Stumpf]

You can't go to the airport there without running into a ton of guys. Exactly.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Guys going on work trips and stuff.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I'm off the grid. What, what was your experience like in the teams? Was it what you thought it was going to be?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, I mean with us, man, I think the, the like, the biggest thing for me is like we never, you know, got to experience like what the real job was. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's good or bad. Well, I, I don't want to be naive. I, I definitely want to, don't want to be that guy that's like, oh, like I never got to see combat. That's, I think that's a little disrespectful to guys that have actually done that because I, I, you know what I mean? Like you lose friends, you guys have, you know, trauma from it. This and that. Don't forget this too.

[Andy Stumpf]

The generation of seals pre 9 11, the generations. Right. There was Panama and Grenada which was super small amounts. But post Vietnam there was about a 30 year window of non combat operations for the vast majority of the community. Night high, 99th percentile. But those people put the post 911 people through buds.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And through training.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And they never got the chance either. And does that make them a worse team guy or a better team? Because I have converse. I've had conversations with guys like this specifically during kind of the middle of the gwat. They're just like, this is everything I thought it was going to be. And you know, and they wouldn't necessarily diminish the careers of people before. But it wasn't, they weren't being incredibly complimentary. And I would remind them of that like hey guys, we're here standing on the shoulders of people who never got to do this us. And I feel like we're doing a pretty good job. And let's not forget where we got that baseline of knowledge.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know what I mean? It's not like they didn't want to. The world didn't serve them up the opportunity.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Well, I think from my perspective, you truly just, from my opinion, you don't truly feel validated until like you've done like you've been, you know, like I, I feel like, you know, although you and I have the same title, I would put a little asterisk next to mine because I never actually just copy.

[Andy Stumpf]

And copy and paste my bio.

[Bear Hanlon]

And.

[Andy Stumpf]

And that's very Tim Kennedy if you know.

[Bear Hanlon]

So you know, it'd Be like, you know, maybe you make the NFL roster, but Roger Goodell says, hey, we're gonna not do any seasons, but you guys go ahead and keep practicing and I'll let you know when we're gonna play a season. So it's like, yes. Did I make the 50, what, three man NFL roster? I did. But then you're like, you know, in the same sentences, guys that played 15 seasons, one Super bowl, you know what I mean? It's like, and it's like we are not the same same, you know, so there's definitely was a, there's definitely a little bit of a self consciousness, but also on the other side of it, like, you know, we trained hard and it's like, I would like to think if, if it came down to it, you would have, you know, performed in that moment. But, but I think it's a little reckless to be like, oh yeah, I would have, I would have killed it. You know, it would have been awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because that's what the teams were like pre 9, 11.

[Bear Hanlon]

Maybe you would have been a coward. I, I don't know, you know what I mean? But I know we wanted, I mean, you know, when I remember in our first workout up, like they were dangling, like maybe Afghanistan and like, I remember the Commodore flew out and like we were at a jump trip and he like kind of gave us a speech like, you know, got to be ready and like we got all fired up and you know what I mean? But then, but then we went to Europe, you know what I mean? And it was, it was fun, like it was a cool experience, but it's like, that's not what I was really signed up for is, is obviously most so that that's the one thing. But again, you can't control it. It's not like you can be like, oh, like spin up some conflict to let us engage in. Like, you know, it's, it's coming from the top and you just do what you're told. But I think that that would be the one thing, as I look back at it, feel like there's still a little bit of meat on the bone there of not being able to actually validate the capability that you were trained to do. And then the kind of self conscious feeling of being in a group of peers that many did that and then were, you know, were absolute, you know, excelled, you know, like, you know, the fact that, you know, you and I should never be in the same sentence as far as what you've done versus what I've done, you know, what I mean, because I was a eight year practice squad player and you know, you were, you know, playing 15 seasons. You know what I mean? That's the comparison.

[Andy Stumpf]

That was random timing. I just, I started my journey earlier. Well, I understand what you're saying. Trust me, I completely understand what you're saying. Looking back on it now though, there's a couple things that I didn't realize in the midst of it. One of them is those experiences have broken a lot of our friends. Yeah. And they valued those experiences, as did I, so immensely. But what if in getting that experience you're not able to function in real life after that? What value is there in that? Right. Because yeah, sure, you're in inside of a super. I mean, what do you think the active duty SEAL community, like somewhere between 2000 to 2500?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, I think so.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's tiny. Right. And they've been messing, they've been trying to mess with those numbers for a long time.

[Bear Hanlon]

Time, same number.

[Andy Stumpf]

They really. God, it really floats.

[Bear Hanlon]

Like movies, all kinds of shit. Same number.

[Andy Stumpf]

And so inside of that community. I totally understand what you're saying and there is that level of validation. But if in getting that validation, whatever that might be to that person only allows you to function inside of that super small microscopic area and then the rest of the world just uppercuts you in the sack every day and you can't maintain a relationship. You're not financially responsible. Chemical and substance abuse issues. And we know something this is not, not like writ large in the community. But you and I both know people that struggle with this. What is the point? Yeah, you know, and the reality is, I've looked back on it. You may not have had the, the, the jump from conceptual to practical, but all of the core fundamental principles and lessons are there, there. And you receive those because they're the basis of the training block and the reason why we train hard and the reason why we do the things we do in the leadership structure and all of those things. So, yeah, you might not have been pressed on a two way range, which isn't fun by the way, but all the lessons are still there. And that I think is hugely valuable because I was going to ask you, I'm curious your thoughts. You know, obviously you eat every meal with a silver spoon due to your.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yale degree, but there it is. There it is.

[Andy Stumpf]

This. I have, I barely graduated high school. I, I found a, a bespoke commissioning route that didn't require any College. I have zero college and retired as an 03E. Emphasis on the E, I was a limited duty officer and I used to tell people like, let's emphasize the limited on this. Yeah, but you also, you know, so college I'm assuming was four years, even though I know some people stretch it out. Right?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, four years.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. And then you did eight in the teams, right?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep. Yeah, seven. Seven years, seven months.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. So we'll call eight for easy math. So double the time in college and what you're doing now, which one do you think has more value in the execution of your, of your day to day? Is it a balance of both?

[Bear Hanlon]

It definitely got a lot of value from both, I would say. You know, the military was, was, was bigger but heavy. It was just like the, the structure of being in a collegiate, like a Division 1 program was awesome. You know, I was like to be 18 years old, get thrown into that and like have to learn on the fly and like discipline and showing up to 6am conditioning and like, like being, you know, the strength coach owns you in the off season. You know, all of that was awesome for like me, you know, having that structure built in before I went to like a program like, you know, but.

[Andy Stumpf]

That was the teams for me. Everything you just described was just my lpo.

[Bear Hanlon]

There you go.

[Andy Stumpf]

And mentors in the teams.

[Bear Hanlon]

So, you know, but there's so much good lessons that I, I still apply from, from those four years. But obviously when you, when you get into like, you know, the job we did, it's like that way more, you know what I mean? Just like all the lessons we learn and you're what you're exposed to and just, you know what I mean? So I, I, I would lean towards my military service as a, a bigger influence.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

But definitely some awesome shit in the, from my college days.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know if combat experience would lever the experience you already took from the teams anymore. Yeah, I mean it might, but I also think that it levers the risk as well too, because it just, man, pre 9 11, you want to talk about wishing for the big game. All we used to do is sit. Well. We would train hard and then and drank enough to kill a donkey almost every night. And when we were drinking, what would we talk about? How awesome we were going to be. Then 911 kicked off and we sucked just the biggest dong ever because we had never been pressed.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

And we get overseas and thank God we were fighting an enemy that was generations behind and centuries behind from technology and equipment perspective and evolved rapidly. But all the core lessons are there, man.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I would not be too Hard on yourself about that. It's a matter of timing or good luck or bad luck, depending on the lens that you're viewing it through.

[Bear Hanlon]

And that's why I say it. You know, I try to say it with humility of like, I, I, I don't want to be that guy banging my chest. Like, oh, I would have, you know, I would have loved that because I think it, it's a little disrespectful to say that because it's like, yeah, man, you have no idea. You know, guys have lost their friends or, you know, ended up taking their own life because of the experience. So, but it, as, it just, as a, you know, team guy, it's in the back of your mind of like, man, I, I wish I could have just validated, you know, just to some degree so I could say, okay, yeah, I did. In that moment, I wasn't a coward. And I, and I did, you know, get it on with the, with the, with the guys and, you know, you know, fulfill my obligation of what I was trained to do.

[Andy Stumpf]

But here's an interesting optic. I've seen people who, I won't use the word coward, but probably didn't perform to the standard that they wanted to in one moment, but then in another one exceeded.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's not always because you had this one experience, you're always going to be like that. Or because you had that one experience, you're always going to be like that. It's very interesting. It's, yeah, it's a, what a weird environment. But yeah, you're like, okay, that guy is a stud. Oh, that was a little bit weird. Oh, he's back to being a stud. We're good.

[Bear Hanlon]

Interesting.

[Andy Stumpf]

And the other side of that, too.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Human beings are complex, man. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, you know, and sometimes you get rattled and sometimes you, yeah, some of the stuff is exceptionally scary. Being on the receiving end of an ambush, let me just tell you, you, that sucks. I would hide behind you because you're bigger than me. I would grab your plates and hold you. No, it's not great. Initiating an ambush. Way better.

[Bear Hanlon]

Way, way better, I would imagine.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it's way more awesome. No, man, I, I, I look back now and I can't say that it didn't have an impact on my life, but I do, I do worry about what the cost associated with it was.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. So, yeah, it's a good perspective.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. I don't have an answer for it, but it's definitely, you know, I spend my time Thinking about it, kicking it around. Why. Why'd you decide to get out?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, I had a daughter on the way and I, I could, I could see other guys that like, you know, weren't. I mean, obviously we're gone so much and I just, I had a tough. Because Born Primitive was growing at that. I think by the time I got out, we had like, I don't know, 40 or 50 employees by then, you know, I was at that point a troop big company. I was a troop commander. So like, my responsibility was more, you know, now I'm briefing the skipper and like, you know, in some cases, like the two star, you know, on deployments and stuff. So I would have to put that hat on. And then like when the VTC would end, I'd go to my computer and like, be doing like, you know, things that were much higher stakes for Born Primitive, you know what I mean? Like lawsuits coming at us and, you know, managing a much bigger advertising budget and all these things. You know what I mean? Like, it was like, man, this, this, this is getting more and more to manage. And then once, you know, I figured out there was a kid coming, I was like, all right, I think if I was a father, a team guy and a CEO, like, I'm going to be average at all three because there's only so many hours in the day.

[Andy Stumpf]

The multi tool.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. And I was like, all right, I got to get rid of one. Obviously, you know, Born Primitive with, you know, 40, 50 employees, like, that wasn't an option. And obviously I was super fired up about it still because it was still starting to like, just get wheels and like, turn into something cool. And I, you know, I was coming up on eight years. I was like, you know what? What? It doesn't look like there's any war happening. Like, I'm, I don't really feel like I'm making a difference. Like, we're training a ton, but that's it. So I kind of had to make the tough call and, and it sucks because I was about to go back to, you know, be a platoon commander, which is what I was really looking forward to. And then the. All the JOs were like, backed up with the detailer.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So they were going to send me to do like an ops gig for two more years at like Group 10. And I was like, it sounds exciting. That was the, that was the kicker. I, I think if I would have got a platoon, I would have been like, all right, I'm going to do two more years. And you know, and then at 10, I'll, I'll get out. And then when the detailer called me back and was like, hey, I got to change your. Your detailing, because, like, there's just too many jos right now. And I was like, what? What is it? And he's like, oh, we're going to send you to group 10, like A ops. And I'm like, I know what that job looks like. I mean, you know, like, you're just shoveling everyone's shit.

[Andy Stumpf]

Cubicle.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And you're there all day and you're, you're leaving last and getting there. So.

[Andy Stumpf]

In uniform. Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

In your garrison canvas. Yeah. Yeah. So that's when I was like, hey, man, I don't, I don't mean to hold you hostage, but, like, if that's like final, like, I'm gonna go on an NSIPS and like, submit my thing because I, you know, my obligation was coming to an end anyway.

[Andy Stumpf]

How was it received by your chain of command?

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, it was fine. You know, it was. I mean, at that point, like, it, it wasn't. There was no, like, shame or anything. And I think people kind of got it particularly, like with the born primitive thing. I think they're like, yeah, actually, like, surprised you didn't do it sooner, you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Know.

[Bear Hanlon]

So, you know, had to do that. But I'm, you know, obviously it freed me up to actually, actually be a full time CEO, which, which helped a lot. And, and I'm super present, you know, with my daughter, which has been, you know, the biggest blessing ever. So in hindsight, I think it was the right call. And in hindsight, I was. My biggest fear is like, the second I leave, kind of like when you wash your car and then like, it's gonna rain two days or that day, you know what I mean? I. I was worried the second I was gonna leave, like, some major conflict would kick off.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then I believe they call that fomo. Yeah, that's what my daughter uses.

[Bear Hanlon]

There you go.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

And that has not happened. That has not happened.

[Andy Stumpf]

So if anything, it's continued to. The spigot is.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Constricting.

[Bear Hanlon]

Because this was at the end of 2021 and, and, you know, other than a few, you know, isolated things, there hasn't been much going on, at least from what I'm hearing. So I think it was the right call. But obviously you still miss the camaraderie and the shenanigans and the, you know, the, the brotherhood and what comes with it. But I, you know, I'm kind of lucky Man, I'm still in Virginia Beach.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So I'm still around it enough. Enough that I still see the guys and you know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

I had to go the other route when I got out. So I got medically retired a month shy of 17 years. And I lived in a community near people that I worked with. I wanted to when I got done. And again, I didn't have a born primitive that I was working on. I was actually working for CrossFit at the time.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

I, my theory was, and this is only my theory, this is not what I suggest for other people, just talking about my own experience. But it was when you hang the spurs up, you gotta hang the spurs up. And I wanted to have a clean break, but it was tough in San Diego.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because like, where are you gonna go? You go to the.

[Bear Hanlon]

Still around it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. You go to the places that you know and guess who are there? The people that you know and guess what they're talking about this stuff you're not doing anymore. But yeah, you wanna be. Even after 17 years, you think the FOMO goes away. Absolutely not. Or you watch something on the news, you're like, come on.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

So then when the opportunity came to move up here, here, I, it wasn't exactly intentional, but it had much more of a psychological benefit for me just by being able to geographically separate a little bit.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because I think there is a lot of value as an individual to be able to be super proud of what we did, but also take a step away from that and not have it be always what we are. Because you're always gonna have that associated with your name regardless. Like, it's always going to be bare. Former Navy Seal. Like, good luck with that. When you're 80, that's how you're going to get introduced to your.

[Bear Hanlon]

No, it's not.

[Andy Stumpf]

Too soon to start holiday shopping.

[Bear Hanlon]

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[Andy Stumpf]

Associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

[Bear Hanlon]

Head into Ultimate Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty Gifting happens here.

[Andy Stumpf]

Great, great grandkids.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

So.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's, it's good you got that clean break, man. And, and I mean you've, you've dealt with this. It's.

[Andy Stumpf]

It worked for me.

[Bear Hanlon]

The, the title thing's Hard, too, because, like, when I was active duty, I wasn't, you know, I. I couldn't obviously promote anything about my actual job. And as Born Permit got bigger, it got a little tricky because I was getting, like, people requesting media interviews and stuff, and I have to go send a bio, and I would just say, like, navy Lieutenant, you know what I mean? But then, like, if they knew. Like, if they knew me, they'd be like, oh, they. You know what I mean? Like, I remember one time I went on. On Fox News when I was active duty for running, like, our. We typically do something every Veterans Day, and they were. They're going to have me on. And I told the producers, like, 15 times. I was like, all right, under no circumstances, you can say navy Lieutenant. That's it. Nothing else. And, like, you know, is if you've probably been on these shows where, like, the. They'll come down and it's like 30 seconds, they're rolling, and they're looking at the sheet for maybe the first time. Let me gu.

[Andy Stumpf]

The first thing out of their mouth.

[Bear Hanlon]

Navy seal, they're like, all right, we're going live in five, four. And the guy. The guy looks at me, and he was like, oh, badass. So you're a seal, huh? And. And, like, they're about to start in, like, one second, and I'm like, you know, I'm going, no, no, no. Because the guys at work wouldn't understand that I actually went out of my way to make sure that was not said. And you imagine going to work that Monday, and they're like, yes, I can imagine what would be on the walls and, like, just, you know, only just good stuff.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it would be just positive reinforcement. There'd be no screen grabs. There'd be no dicks.

[Bear Hanlon]

Photoshopped metal Medal of honor photoshopped 100%.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, you'd be, like, in a Marine Corps uniform with, like, several medals of honor.

[Bear Hanlon]

So that was tricky. And it was getting more tricky. And then I, you know, there even some podcasts I got invited on that were like, you know, some bigger ones that, like, they wanted to talk about this because that was. That. Of course, that was the compelling story, I'll admit. And. But when I had to say, hey, like, we can't talk about any of that, and, hey, if you don't want to have me, I totally get it, because, like, it's way less of a cool story if it's just, you know, me in this business. You know what I mean? But that was hard to navigate. But, you know, Once you get out, you know, it's, it's. I had to make this decision, like, all right, do I continue to try to like hide this title, you know, because I am an entrepreneur? But then it becomes this awkward, like, okay, what did you just do for the last eight years? You know what I mean? And as you can.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then when you talk around it and if you get too far in the gray area, talking around it, people, you, it actually draws more. Exactly.

[Bear Hanlon]

And then you start and your attempt.

[Andy Stumpf]

To diffuse it and obscure it a little bit, people like, what, what do you mean? I've heard people use, did you do something special?

[Bear Hanlon]

And then it sounds like you're just trying to sound cool, like, you know what I mean by being like vague, you know, so, you know, that, that's something that was a little hard for me to adjust to because I understand, you know, guys have their opinions at work and stuff. And it's, I think a lot of it's like the younger guys, like, once you get out in the civilian world, it's a little different. But that is something I've had to wrestle with. It's like, man, you know, when you're introduced, because now, like, I've been on Fox a couple times, they're like, hey, you know, Bear Hanlon, former Navy SEAL owner, born primitive. And I know when guys see that, they're like, you know, there's probably some guys like, hey, that's, that's up. And it's like. Or, you know, you know, which guys.

[Andy Stumpf]

Say that the ones who aren't given the opportunity to go on Fox News, who have been an entrepreneur, who did the eight years, earned the title and have a business that they're going on Fox News to talk about giving back to the veteran community on Veterans Day Day. Yeah, don't lose that either. Most of the people, it's interesting, man. Our community, I love our community. But at the same time, it is one of the most vicious, self consuming communities, especially when it comes to people having success outside of that community. If in any way, shape or form, it's tied to the title or the Trident.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Which by the way, none of us own. We all rented that. But you earn the opportunity to do whatever you want to with your experiences. And I don't understand why it is so vicious. Oh, we need to go back to being the quiet professionals. It's like, hey, guys, how did you all hear about being a seal? Probably the book Men with Green Faces, you know, or the movie, which was a documentary starring Charlie Sheen called Navy Seals Documentary.

[Bear Hanlon]

Love it. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

But there has always been some level of public awareness of that, because some people have taken their experiences and been public with it. Now there's. As long as you maintain your integrity and a relationship with the truth, I think it's okay. Yeah, but people get so pissed about that. It's like, man, you're not the arbiter of what can be done with that stupid. What do they charge for a trident in the exchange? Like, six bucks.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's like. And I tell people, like, oh, you want to be a seal? Just go buy one on Amazon.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Don't send it right to your house. I don't give a.

[Bear Hanlon]

Same one we got.

[Andy Stumpf]

Same. Seriously. It's like, I had one one time. The first one I got, we were in Thailand, and I dipped it in gold and I had a ruby put into it, and I lost the thing. I don't know where it's at, but it's. I. I don't. It's as if people believe you could have never been successful without the bird.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's like, come on, guys. Yeah, that's not. That's not the case. Does it help? Probably. Does it have a huge negative association? Especially as we get away from the Gwok, as there are examples, in my opinion, of people who are. Or whether having a relationship with the truth is starting to get strained or, you know, there are their actions in and of themselves that are hitting at a national level or maybe devoid a little bit of integrity. Yeah. Like that stuff. It's all pulled into the same bucket because you and I, if we were in a group of seals, all of them might look at me and be like, oh, yeah, that Andy, he's a piece of. But a civilian would never know the difference because a seal is a seal.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Right.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think as long as you do those things, you have your integrity, you maintain your relationship with the truth. I think it's okay. I think we should never say anything, ever. Well, okay, then. How are we going to recruit? How are we going to get people who want to continue to do this job? How are we going to inspire the next generation? Because I don't have an answer to that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, it's. And it's. It's hard because it's so.

[Andy Stumpf]

The.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's so ambiguous on what the rules are. There are no rules. That's the problem. For example, like, if a guy's getting out and he's trying to get a job and he's, you know, like, they have things like the honor foundation now and stuff where like guys get kind of trained up and they, they fix their resume and they do interview. It's great stuff because I always speak at their things every quarter on their like entrepreneurial panel. All right, so can a guy put a Navy Seal veteran transitioning Navy seal on his LinkedIn? To me, that doesn't bother me at all because now he has to go get a job and support his family. But some people will be like, oh, that's super effed. It's like, like, why exactly?

[Andy Stumpf]

Or I was like, hold on. So because he's getting out, you don't like the fact that he is using a term that he by every measure earned.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's the only title like everyone else. If you're a helicopter pilot, this, you can put it, it's fine. But we, the one job, we're not allowed to say that's what we were when it's like, guys, we weren't that cool.

[Andy Stumpf]

But again, but that is internal to our community.

[Bear Hanlon]

I, I, but it's very, there's no black and white. No, I mean, so that is one of the problems. Yeah. And some people, you know, would get special treatment. It's like, well, if that guy can that, like, why is that okay? But then this, you know, someone putting this on their LinkedIn is a big deal. Or yeah. Or particularly when it's relevant to the job you're doing. Like, I, I have a friend who's like teaches shooting and stuff. And when he got out, he put, I think he put naval special warfare veteran. Like he didn't even put seal and he created like a little website because he was going to teach people how to shoot. So like that's obviously very relevant for that, his credibility in that space. Because he did core competency. He did 20 years in naval special.

[Andy Stumpf]

He didn't even put.

[Bear Hanlon]

And he immediately got a call from one of his best friends who was like, still active and was like, f you, like you've sold out and blah, blah, blah. And it's like this guy's trying to now run a business on his own. And so if you were a software engineer at Google for 20 years and you were like one of the high up, the most best engineers, and now you're gonna go try to, you know, train people, but you can't use the work on writing code. Are you gonna be able to say, oh, I worked at this. You're gonna say, hey, I worked at Google. You know what I mean? Like, it's okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

Worked at a search engine. Relatively known. Yeah. Company doing things.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Or I've done 20 years in software. Okay. What? You know what I mean? So it's a little frustrating. But also for the guys who are.

[Andy Stumpf]

In which I have absolutely nothing but respect for, you have no idea what's coming. When you get out, it's a little different. And when you have to navigate your path and present yourself as the most employable possible, and you want to separate yourself on resume or in job opportunities or in job interviews, and they're asking you what makes you different than the other thousand people looking for that job. Check back in with me and let me know the path you took on that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep. Yep. And you've earned the right to be able to have that decision.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because just like the idiots who are out there, one drinking evolution at a time, ruining a reputation, they also earn the right to do that as well.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

You've earned your experiences. Do with them what you want, but you're responsible for the outcome.

[Bear Hanlon]

Outcome, exactly. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

God, it's such a weird world. What's the biggest mistake you have made in Born Primitive?

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, good one.

[Andy Stumpf]

Then I need to know what item you thought was going to be a banger that just didn't sell.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because these are fun. Like, people don't understand soft goods.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Or just what goes into, like. Because you write the check up front.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

So.

[Bear Hanlon]

So we. I would say the biggest mistake we've ever made was.

[Andy Stumpf]

Today's episode is brought to you by Element. This stuff will save your life. And I don't mean it's going to pull you out of a fiery car or jump into a pool and rescue you. If you don't know how to swim, which learn how to swim because most of the earth is covered in water. But if you exercise, if you sweat, if you care about electrolytes, then what is contained in this little pouch right here is an absolute game changer. In this little pouch, in one of these things is 1,000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, 60 milligrams of magnesium. Now, this particular one is a citrus salt, which I enjoy, but I'm looking at their website right now, and I'm going to recommend their lemonade. It's one of the flavors they came out with over the summer. It tastes like the lemonade that I grew up with. It is my go to after an hour of jujitsu, consensually snuggling and attempting to choke my friends unconscious. And the difference it makes. The difference it makes on days where I don't have one after training and days when I do is unbelievable. I feel like I can actually recharge and recover and I definitely feel it when it comes to soreness the next day. They got a lot of flavors. I'm looking at their website right now. So the citrus that I mentioned, this comes also. This flavor comes in their bubbly water. It's sparkling water, same flavor. They make a 16 ounce can and a 12 ounce can. They have grapefruit. They have a black cherry lime. Sparkling. They have an unflavored one if you really hate your life and things that taste good. They have two different chocolates as well. This chocolate caramel and a chocolate salt. Those are great for hot chocolates. I use those in the winter. They have some spicy ones. Mango chili particularly. That's great in cocktails. Raspberry, orange, watermelon. God, they're delicious. And you may not know where to start. So I recommend the variety pack, which is probably the best way to figure out what you like from a brand that maybe you haven't ordered from before. Let them send you a bunch of these things. Pick the one that you like and the next time you go to order, you know what to put in your car card. Drink element.com cleared hot. Your body will thank me for it.

[Bear Hanlon]

Back to the show Purchase is inventory. Back to what we were talking about. So we, we, Mal and I used to like and it was mainly Mal would, would do the inventory purchases. Like we had some shitty Excel doc that was super rudimentary and we would just kind of guess and it was not scientific at all. So we got this software that was supposed to use like, you know, it's your sales velocity and do all these calculations, like you should order 900 units or 2,000 units. So we brought someone in with no experience and we thought, oh well, she can just learn the software and then she's just the one that runs it and then she'll submit the purchase order. So she would send the purchase orders to Mal and me and then like we'd be like, yeah, approved and like would submit it. Well, this was during COVID so lead times were longer on, on getting stuff in. So you had to order like a bigger amount, right. Just to cover the time lapse. And you know, things exploded during COVID because everyone had all this extra money and they're sitting around their house wanting to wear, you know, comfy sweatpants, right? So there was an order we put in at the time like we would launch like, let's say like a fall collection. And like your Six week burn. I'm like, let's say you would order, you would sell, you, maybe you'd sell through like let's call it say 35 or 40,000 units, like in a six week period, which is kind of like when you want to start like kind of selling out.

[Andy Stumpf]

Right?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, we look at the fall collection order and this girl had ordered like 260,000 units. And I'm like, now we are still going to have that inventory in five years. You know, I mean, and Mal had approved it and this was part of it. Like she was super busy. Like I was like deployed. So I was probably like, well hey, I'm good if Mal's good with it. Like I probably didn't even look at it because I'm like, oh, she has the software. You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

Reply to all Looking good.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, looks solid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and, and I remember One of the SKUs on that was lit was, was these maroon joggers we had and I think it was like 20 to 30,000 units of just that color of joggers. And, and so that was a year year. The business made a lot of money like on paper. And, and as you know, you can't write off the cost of goods until you actually sell it. So let's say you submit a three million dollar purchase order at the end of the year and let's say you made $3 million that year. Uncle Stam still says you made 3 million even though from a cash flow standpoint you broke even. Yeah, right. So you're gonna owe, you know, 40% of 3 million to Uncle Sam as your tax. So now you're actually cash flow negative. So since you can't write off the cost of goods, goods, you know, we had, you know, hundreds of thousands of units we couldn't sell.

[Andy Stumpf]

And how wild is that by the way? That since you have to pay for it up front.

[Bear Hanlon]

Crazy. It's a horrible rule. It is a dumbest thing ever.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, that's how you can really bankrupt and crush a small business.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because people, I mean my orders are way smaller with the podcast and now it's like I've even gone away from, I'm going to do runs of like a hundred T shirts. Because I'd rather sell out every course. Yeah, because then at least you can write off the cost.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because otherwise let's say you do a 10,000 order and you sell a thousand like you said, at the end of the year, like I'm showing income on something that hasn't derived income that I've written the check for.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

But then, you know, and your account, like, well, you could. You'll write it off next. I'm like, I have to survive till next year to write that off.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. So. So we. We had that exact thing happen. And then it got to the point where that was our most profitable year ever. Like, we made a lot of money that year, comparatively. And I had to. We all. Me and the other owners, Mal and my. So my two brothers are proud owners too. We all had to sh. Just to keep the business going. It's like, all right, we just had a record sales year. Record profit year on paper, but we're all now loaning money to the business. Like, I took a lien against my house and put like, you know, like 400 grand, like, just for the tax bill. Just. Just for the tax bill. And now we have like. And then the logistical nightmare of now having like 200,000 extra units you don't need in a warehouse. And, like, the space it takes up.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's all I think of when you said that number. Oh, my God, my garage.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And, you know, we had a warehouse by then, but the poor, like, warehouse team now has to, like, figure it out. And, you know, that's when I think we had like six warehouse employees. So, like, we have this giant. So that was the one where I realized, okay, like, we need to bring in people that are specialized in these different things, and we need to bring in people that are smarter than us in every discipline and you know what I mean? And let them.

[Andy Stumpf]

Core competencies.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. So what would happen?

[Andy Stumpf]

So, okay, you make that order for 250 grand. It shows 3 million in sales, but you can't write it off until you sell it. What happens if you end up deeply discounting it to new, clear inventory?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, that's what you end up having to do.

[Andy Stumpf]

But then it doesn't that even get more complicated because can you. Are you end up writing off less? Well, the cogs is still the same.

[Bear Hanlon]

Cogs are the same. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Your income would actually. Okay, I guess that would be slightly tax beneficial. But again, you have to survive these things to get into the tax year to be able to do that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep. And then you guess what, you have to put the next order in for the new collection to keep things fresh. You know what I mean? So, like, you can't not do the next spring collection because, like, or, you know, spring's actually already been ordered. But when you're doing your summer collection, it's like, well, we still Got to put a 40,000 unit order in for summer or we're not going to have something new to promote which is going to bring people to the site that will keep our sales going. So it became this like, like this. You know, I just looked at Mountain like how the hell do we mess up this bad? Like this is like not. We didn't over order by 20% we or we over ordered by 700%. Like I was like this wasn't even close.

[Andy Stumpf]

And how wild is it that it came from a single email?

[Bear Hanlon]

I know, right?

[Andy Stumpf]

Cascading downstream problem.

[Bear Hanlon]

And it wasn't like her fault like it. Mal and I were to blame because like we put someone in a position and said, oh, because there's this software, like it'll be fine. Like you can put anyone in there and like they'll do a quick 30 minute tutorial and watch the training videos. Okay. She's now the supply chain officer, you know, or whatever. And that was just us being naive and you know, having never run a real business before and now we have a whole supply chain team, you know what I mean? And like it's, it's so much more scientific now and you know, all kinds of different, you know, algorithms running so that I look back and I'm just like, man, it was just ironic because we were, you know, on paper killing it, but like if you know, the actual was going on behind the scenes, it was just a giant shit show.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, imagine how many businesses and for people listening out there, who are entrepreneurs who want to start, if you guys hadn't been in that position where you could have had that infusion of capital, oh my God, that could have been the end.

[Bear Hanlon]

It would have been the end.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's what I'm saying. So how, how many smaller businesses where people are bootstrapping it and they're paycheck to paycheck and oh, end of the year you realize you over ordered every is and you owe six figures plus on your taxes.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean that is how small businesses, they go under 100.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's, that's why, that's why I always joke with Mal. I'm like, if I ever start another business, I'm going to do a service business. So there's no inventory. I, I will be the service. I'm just gonna be a private consultant and bill people like buy the job. And like then when the job ends, I get paid and that's the end of it. You know what I mean? Otherwise you're always kicking the can down the road of making Money because you got to buy the next, next batch of inventory.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know how many times I've gone and stood in my garage over the years and just looked like you.

[Bear Hanlon]

Are a piece of, you know, and dude, trust me. So when, so when I've, when I've been able to go on Fox for the, for like the Veterans Day stuff, like, I, I usually wear one of our flannels. And like, it's kind of.

[Andy Stumpf]

They're amazing.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's a little. Oh, thank you. We will sell a ton of flannels when I wear that color. And I was joking with the team the other day, like, what are you going to wear? Because it looks like I'm getting on again this year for our Veterans Day. And they're like, which flannel are you going to wear? You got to make sure, like, you wear one, like the high stock inventory spreadsheet. You know what I told him I was going to wear? I said, well, I'm going to wear the flannel, but I'm wearing maroon joggers on the bottom. Because I was like, I'm pretty sure we have like 5,000 of those somewhere from the 2020 buy.

[Andy Stumpf]

You do the bogo. Buy one flannel, get a set of maroon joggers. And you can check this.

[Bear Hanlon]

I will pay you. I will pay you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Check here if you don't want a pair, which, by the way, we're still sending.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, I will send you a five pack if you. For a small shipping fee. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

God, inventory adventures are so horrible.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Well, and now, like, you know, you know, we do a lot of pants, right. And shoes. So, like pants, you have a 30 waist, a 33 or a, you know, a 30, 32. 30. And then the different inseam lengths.

[Andy Stumpf]

Totally.

[Bear Hanlon]

And then shoes, you got colorways. Yeah, exactly. Now with shoes, you got half sizes. Shoes take up a ton of space because it's, you know, now it's the cubic volume, which is why we're, you know, building that massive facility because we're just, we're bursting at the scene. We, we have like four warehouses in Virginia beach now because we, we just keep running out of room.

[Andy Stumpf]

What do you say to people who. And this is an interesting one right now, it's. People are focusing a lot more on American production. And I have these conversations with Pete or I was just having a conversation with Josh Smith down the road. Company.

[Bear Hanlon]

He's awesome. They're awesome.

[Andy Stumpf]

Totally agree. And he's talking about. He was really frustrated because he is trying to get in line with what the current administration is talking about, bring manufacturing back to the U.S. well, to do so. So he needed to buy some equipment that is not made in the US that had a 40% tariff slapped on it.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's tricky.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, yeah, because he was going to buy, I don't know if he said four, but just for easy math, like, if he wanted to buy four, but with these tariffs, now he can afford to buy two. It's like, hey, man, we're trying to do this. And it's not just because you buy that all of a sudden capacity in the US Overnight exists. You need to train the people on it. You need to, to, you know, get the raw materials. And he's vertically integrating. Well, but it takes time. And there's a huge argument. I don't know where you guys make your stuff, but I see this with origin as well, the U.S. supply chain. There's a cost associated with that. There's time associated with that, investment associated with that. What do you say to people like, oh, it's not made in the US.

[Bear Hanlon]

So it's a very valid question. And I appreciate the question because I would, I would be that guy if I didn't own an apparel company, because I would, you know, I'm, I'm from the Midwest, patriotic, I love America. Like, I'm, I am that guy. Guy. However, it's extremely complicated. And to oversimplify it, like, the American textile industry is just in no position to do what can be done overseas.

[Andy Stumpf]

It doesn't exist.

[Bear Hanlon]

And the amount of risk that you would inherit, like, let's say I, I, you know, in theory, I could probably go raise 20 million bucks with, you know, a private equity firm and say, hey, we're going to build this giant factory in Chesapeake and we're going to employ 100 people there, and we're going to make all of our own stuff. Stuff. There's so much risk to that. But here's the problem. Here's the bigger problem. It all comes down to gross margin, right? Our gross margin as a company is around 70%. That's pretty good. Now, some in supplements, in the beauty space, it's 80, 85%, but we're, we land around 70%. So, you know, if I feel like that's spectacular, that's very good. Right? At a 70% gross margin, our net operating margin on a percentage basis, I think last year we landed around 12%, right? So even at a 70% gross margin, we're only clearing 12%, as in profits, as you know, of that 12%. Uncle Sam's gonna say, okay, we're gonna take our 37, 38 of that. Right. So you're cutting a check for that. And then you have your inventory purchase that you have to do to keep the next year going, which will probably be more than the delta of whatever's left.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

Right. So. And, and I think we run a pretty good business, right? So if all of a sudden you tell me my gross margin is going to go from 70%. So, okay, now you're going to make it in the USA. Now your gross margin's 45%.

[Andy Stumpf]

You're out of business.

[Bear Hanlon]

You are, are, you are operating in the red by 10 or 15% every year. The only way that doesn't work is, you know, so we'll spend about 20% of our total revenue on digital advertising. The only way that formula works is if I don't have to spend 20% on advertising. So for a situation like origin and stuff, like if you have a jocko where you're like, okay by him being associated with it, we don't have to spend millions of dollars on meta ads. The formula actually becomes feasible, although very difficult. Difficult. We're just, we don't have, we don't have the star. We don't have a guy like that, like, that can, you know, reach millions of people.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, until you cut your hair. It could have been.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

You disgust me now with your military regular. Last time I saw you, it's just.

[Bear Hanlon]

Like, you're like, oh, yeah, blowing in the wind.

[Andy Stumpf]

It could have been you Bear totally messed up.

[Bear Hanlon]

It could have been that guy. So, so, but also, I, I hate to say it, but for very, for high performance cut and sew, apparently barrel, we don't have the capability from, like, from the sewing capacity as well as the, the fabric selection. And I hate admitting that, but like.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know, but it's also just the objective truth.

[Bear Hanlon]

It is, you know, like, isn't.

[Andy Stumpf]

Aren't places like Vietnam on kind of the cutting edge of stuff like that?

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. You get, you can get any fabric in the world and you have the best sewers and they can make you a sample that is like, and I won't give names, but we, we originally we were doing outdoor. You know, we launched our outdoor. We wanted to, wanted to see if we could get it made in the US For a similar price point. We were like, let's just try. And we sent it to some people that are friends of ours that have been in the game for a long time.

[Andy Stumpf]

I already know you're talking about you.

[Bear Hanlon]

And we said, hey, maybe we could actually partner. And you guys, like, we can piggyback onto your production line and see what happens. So we sent them a pair of the pants you're wearing right now. And the guy called Aaron back, who they're good friends and was like, dude, there's no chance we can make this pant. It'll look like it's way too complex. It's basically. It's way too Gucci to ever be made here with. You know what I mean? And we already knew that, but we wanted to try. And then also, it's all the price point. So if you wanted to achieve a gross margin that would make your business able to have a chance at making 3% bottom line, you'd have to double the price of the pant. Now everyone, you know, bangs the main. The USA drum a lot. But for like, the pant you're wearing, like, to. To make that in the usa, one, it would be hard to source all the right fabrics and stuff. But two, we'd have to double the price. So, like, how many people are. So are that fired up about Main USA where they'd spend $360 on a pair of pants that you could get for 160?

[Andy Stumpf]

Dude.

[Bear Hanlon]

Right?

[Andy Stumpf]

Tough ask.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's. It's a. It's impossible ask. Because they won't. There's a very small subset, and now.

[Andy Stumpf]

They'Re not going to float your business. The small subset.

[Bear Hanlon]

It just doesn't work. You know what I mean? So until there's like a tailwind of like actual. So that's why I get. I don't get mad because again, I understand the question. Because until you're running like a clothing company or a consumer goods brand, like, you don't understand how, like. Yeah, you think, like, people are clearing 60%. Like, bottom line, it's like, dude, we're clearing 12. You know what I mean? And then we have to pay taxes.

[Andy Stumpf]

Before Uncle Sam has his hand sticking out. Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

In the. The. The average in our. In our space is actually. We're slightly above is like 8% bottom line net operating margin. Right. So we're actually above the median. And now we're trying to get that to 15, 16 eventually. Because back in the day, we were like 25% because it was like, when you have like 10 people running a big operation, your. Your costs are pretty lean.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So that's the big thing, man. Just the math doesn't work now. We have shifted. So we're in a lot of, like, trade compliant countries. Now, which helps. And then we do have Made in USA stuff for our government business.

[Andy Stumpf]

So.

[Bear Hanlon]

For tactical and out. Yeah, for tactical and outdoor, we're getting a bunch of stuff made in Tennessee, which is awesome. But guess what? Our opposal pant, our number one selling tactical product. When we sell that to the government, it's going to be, you know, close to 400 bucks. Right. The consumer won't pay, pay that. There might be a couple, you know what I mean? But it's. You can't do about. That's not a volume play. And just to get a production run, you got to order three or 4,000 units. So now I'm ordering 4,000 units of a pant that cost me 200 to make. I'm gonna sell it for 400. No one's gonna pay 400. And now I have, you know, millions of dollars sitting in a warehouse that I might as well just light on fire, you know what I mean? So, like, the risk goes way up. So that's just kind of the dynamic of it. I wish it wasn't like, like that. And, and I, I absolutely commend the guys that, like, you know, like the Origin crew and all that there's inherent.

[Andy Stumpf]

Struggles in what they're doing.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, and that's, that's why, you know, I was like, man, if they can pull this off, like, because I know the numbers and I don't know their financials, but, you know, my, my gut having been doing this for 12 years was like, unless they have to spend nothing on advertising because of like the, you know, guys like Jocko and that, like, they. I was like, I. My guess would be they're getting their asses handed to them again because of the, the math. I just broke down. I. So I commend it. And it's like in. I would imagine those would be guys like, you know, that I'd hit it off with and would love to have a beer with. And like, it's again, mad respect, particularly like owning your own facilities. That. That's a whole nother beast. Yeah. And like, that's, I mean, that's scary stuff, man. So that's, that's kind of where we land on it. And even with shoes, like, I think Nike and Under Armour, I think Nike did a project where they tried to create a fully autonomous factory in like, Texas, like, like many years ago ago where it could create shoes. Like, like it was just 100 robotic and it completely failed. And then Under Under Armour did a. Under Armored, tried Jesus, you know, Kevin Plank, I think it was Kevin Plank, you know, they tried to do a big project where they're going to say, all right, we're going to figure out how to make shoes in the US and they tried it. I think it was in the Baltimore area and that completely flopped. I think Adidas has tried. So, you know, because shoes is, that's our number one product now, people.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is it really?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, by a long shot.

[Andy Stumpf]

Wow.

[Bear Hanlon]

Crazy. And they're like, why don't you, you know, these, these are awesome. But they should mainly say, it's like.

[Andy Stumpf]

Guys, you're talking about these ones.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, there we go. Yep. That is our number one selling shoe, the black Gum Savage one. And it's like, guys, not even the big dogs, they've tried this. They've pumped million, hundreds of millions into this development. Like, I'm sure as hell not going to try. Because if Nike and Under Armour can't do it, like little, little Born Primitive can't.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I mean, maybe we need to change the approach from being absolutionist, where everything needs to be produced in the US to figuring out, out, you know, China, man, you talk about textiles and electronics and you know, Taiwan with semiconductors. I don't know how you compete with that. Right. Is it even possible? Maybe instead of saying, hey, we need to bring all manufacturing back in, which would be the absolutionist approach, we can go with a little bit more of a reductionist approach and say, hey, let's bring as much back as we can that we have the capacity for.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because how do you compete with a company in Vietnam? As an example, which I know a lot of high end apparel, barrel, incredible technology, Even the, the wingsuits that I used to fly, there's a canopy company paraglider or para wing, it's called Ozone and we're talking laser cut to like a ridiculous level of accuracy. They make the wingsuits that I used to spend a bunch of time jumping in. Why? Because they were the most accurate, most technical on the planet Earth. Able to do that. Maybe we let them focus on what they've been doing for 10 years and we focus on what we, you know, I mean, like, we don't have to bring it all back to the U.S. yeah. Because if my choice is my life depends on a wingsuit and it's a dude in Tennessee who's, who's just gotten off probation and putting together wingsuits or somebody crushing them in Vietnam. I'm sorry, Exactly. I'm going with the Vietnam wingsuit.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Man, I wish it Wasn't that way. It just.

[Andy Stumpf]

It is.

[Bear Hanlon]

And you were constantly looking at ways to. To do it. But right now, the only angle is for government business, really. Because. Because, like, Uncle Sam will spend $400 for the pan. Right. Which is a whole another story. Like, I don't know if that's the best, most fiscally responsible.

[Andy Stumpf]

They pass audits all the time. You know what I mean?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. The missing trillions.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know what pisses me off right now? As we sit here, the government is shut down and senators and congressmen are still getting a paycheck.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, that's.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, I think, Warren, how about you're instantly fired? How about if you let the job that we elect you to do to grind to a halt like this, you are no longer eligible for reelection instantaneously.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. I mean, as well as the budget. You know what I mean? Like. Like, I think, I think. I think. I think Warren Buffett said. I think it was Warren Buffett who said this. Like, if you want it, you really want a balanced budget or the GDP doesn't surpass what we spend in a year, he's like, make it so, like, if. If at any year, fiscal year, we don't have a balanced budget, like, they all lose their jobs. And he was like, that would fix it instantly. I love that. I think it would weigh so much, that point. It's like, we're the richest country on the planet, and we still are in deficit trillions of dollars every year.

[Andy Stumpf]

31 trillion.

[Bear Hanlon]

It just doesn't. It'd be like, like, you know, like if you were the head of a household and you were like the wealthiest family on the block, but you just run your credit card bill up, you know, beyond what you could ever afford, and you're using it to, like, pay for the whole neighborhood, and you're, You're. But your kids are eventually going to inherit a credit card debt that will make them suffer. You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's like, it's just, it's. It's an. Obviously a simplified analogy, but it just blows me away that, like, all right, all these things we waste money on to satisfy the constituents of these different senators and congressmen. It's like, okay, do you. Do we really need $60 million for the Kennedy center renovation?

[Andy Stumpf]

Of course we do.

[Bear Hanlon]

You know, I don't know where the Kennedy center is, but the, the, like, the Doge stuff's been pretty hilarious, you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Know, because that kind of fell flat these days. Where's. Where's the Doge talking days?

[Bear Hanlon]

So I know it was obviously the hot item. But so that the last couple of days they've been calling out some of the things that like the Democrats wanted to put in this resolution. Yeah. And there are. It's some of the same old offenders. Like there was one for like circumcision research in Zimbabwe, subway for 3 million. And like it literally.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know what's cutting edge and critical. I'm not a doctor, sir. I don't know if you are either. You know, that's one of the problems though is the omnibus stuff.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Until we can strip away that. And a bill is actually, you know, so many times it'll be. Will be like education in the U. Making this up. You know, education bill for underprivileged children in the US and there's $70 million for Ukraine in there. Until we stop that. I know it has to be a single item and I know that that would grind the government to a slower pace. But guess what? This is what we pay you to do.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

So instead of hiding all that crap in there, you need to actually vote on like make a bill about what the actual bill is because that's what catches people like in the continuing resolution is all that other.

[Bear Hanlon]

I know that I feel like you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Have to put through an AI, like, hey, here's an 8,000 page bill. We vote on this tomorrow. Be ready to go. Your only option is to spit that into an AI machine to try to summarize.

[Bear Hanlon]

Supercomputer. Yeah. Yeah. And then you know, some guy, hey, I need 20 million for the park in my district. Okay. Yeah. Are you gonna vote? Yes. Yeah. Okay, we'll put it in. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

Even though it's fine for this leukemia study bill. Exactly. Yeah, man. It's, it's, it's frustrating. And then, you know, obviously also the insider trading stuff just blows me the away. It's so obvious of that, sir.

[Andy Stumpf]

Dude, like, like this sounds like an accusation.

[Bear Hanlon]

Any black and white proof, my buddy. So they have that trade, they have that app that guy created where it follows the.

[Andy Stumpf]

The.

[Bear Hanlon]

The in and he's, and he's, you know, I, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm the conservative side and he's, he's on the, you know, liberal side. But we're good buddies. Like we always give each other and good fun.

[Andy Stumpf]

Amazing how that can actually happen in real life.

[Bear Hanlon]

We're like great. I mean we stood in each other's weddings and you know, he's like, so. But so I was. We, we always. About insider trading on both sides. And so he did a, he did the app and he's. One of his portfolios is following Pelosi, which is hilarious because he's a liberal. So like he, he acknowledges and he's like, dude, I put in, I just tested, I put in three grand. Like, yeah, now it's like three, three months ago. And he's like, he's like, he's like, I'm up 68%. And then I saw the. Is it the governor? Canada, New Jersey. She was asked a question on like a podcast about she had just done a recent trade of like she had sold like 7 million in stock like right before. And I might be messing up the exact details like right before some like it got sold off or whatever. And the podcast host was like, hey, hey, like could you give us more details on that? And like she played dumb and was like, oh, I'd have to like look into that. I'm not fully familiar. And he was like, it's, it was $7 million. Like you didn't know about that transaction, you know what I mean? And she kind of backpedaled. And I think maybe she's getting like, looked at, but like, it's so obvious, man. And it's on both sides, homie.

[Andy Stumpf]

Dan Crenshaw has a tracker too.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, here's the thing, man, you know, because he's been vocal about like, oh, we should be able to trade. And it's like, I'd be like, dan, put your shit in the s and P500 like everyone else else. And 19 out of 20 people are not going to beat the index. So like, you know, even the high end investors like Warren Buffetts and the Kevin o', Leary's, they're like, don't try to hand pick.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, there is a subset of Americans that do often beat the market.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yes, but, but don't.

[Andy Stumpf]

They're known as politicians.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, yes, like, but, yes, but, but it's like, don't act because like, because you became a congressman that if you're not able to trade stocks that you're now sacrificing this giant luxury like freedom. Like, you know, you join the military, you sacrifice a lot of. So it's like you're telling me that because you just are only allowed to put your stuff in the S&P 500 like the rest of us and you can't handpick stocks in these random defense industries in like Ukraine that all of a sudden goes up 200 overnight because they just got a contract. And then, you know, right before this company in the US Gets a giant congressional subpoena that you knew was getting issued three weeks ago, and mysteriously, you just sold off all of your stock because you knew once the press got a hold of it, it's going to go down 40% overnight like this. It's. So if you had that information, it's absurd. Yeah. And then, you know, they, with a straight face will be like, I don't know what you're talking about. And it's like, oh, so you're telling me if, you know, a congressional subpoena is getting issued to a Fortune 500 company about some kind of, you know, violation of some environmental law they broke or this and that, and like, their stock is going to crater overnight when that subpoena is issued. You know what I mean? You're telling me that you just dumping $1 million of that company's stock is not insider trading because you are literally in Congress. Like, it's freaking insane.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know what Pelosi would.

[Bear Hanlon]

My husband does it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Correct.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm not responsible for our investing. Oh, yeah. And I'm sure you guys never talk.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, it's. Oh, it's infuriating. And we should all be mad, like, both sides of the aisle. Like, you know, we should be united on this. You know, the.

[Andy Stumpf]

So. And I have no tie to this app, but it's called the Autopilot app. I'm intimately familiar. It has the Pelosi tracker, it has a chat GPT tracker, it has a Crenshaw tracker. And here's the thing. Like, explain to me how these people are able to achieve returns beyond those that have specialized in this for their entire life.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yes.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because I'm sorry, you can't. And if you're going to lie directly to my face with a straight face, I guess you're in the right profession.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. I mean, you look at like the best hedge fund managers, right, that, like, are getting billionaires giving them their money. You know, if they achieve a 20% return versus, like, the market market, like, they're, you know, they're getting, they're raising another billion dollar fund. Right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Meanwhile, Pelosi's up 119% year over year.

[Bear Hanlon]

I think, like, it was in June, she was up like 78%, like year to date. It's like you've literally almost doubled your money. And it's. We're not even halfway through the. Like, we're not even through summer yet. Yeah, like, like if, if she was a hedge fund manager, everyone would literally give her her money. They give Them, her money.

[Andy Stumpf]

I wonder, you know, she's also 187 years old. I, I wonder what you, what she's gonna do with that wealth.

[Bear Hanlon]

I don't know, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean, do you leave that? Do you. I mean, I don't know. I don't understand numbers that are that big, but God, I would hope to achieve that level of wealth, I guess, earlier in life so you could really enjoy it.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. I mean, imagine making 180 grand a year for, you know, 50 years, but being worth, you know, hundreds of millions and with a straight face being like, oh, I'm just really good at trading. I don't know, I guess I just pick them. Right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Why do the American people talk, tolerate that?

[Bear Hanlon]

I don't know, man. Well, I think it's because the people making the rules are the ones benefiting from it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Right.

[Bear Hanlon]

Like, how would you actually solve that?

[Andy Stumpf]

Term limits would be a good start.

[Bear Hanlon]

It would be. But again, they make the rule like, so they're not going to put.

[Andy Stumpf]

Don't they work for us? Yeah, but I feel like this power dynamic is shifting.

[Bear Hanlon]

But you wouldn't. Like how do you get like they literally make the rules. So like if them making term limits would have to, they would have to literally be conceding like the whole reason they're there, you know what I mean? Like, because if there's term limits, the dollar signs go away to some extent. They're these 50 year careers and then all the speaking engagements they get and the book deals and like all that goes away if you do two terms. I mean, I'm with all of that. Me too. We all are. But when the people that are the ones benefiting from it are tasked with making the rule to change it, it's never going to happen.

[Andy Stumpf]

Fine. Well, let's just vote for democratic socialists.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Oh, this New York guy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Are you ready to shop at the government owned grocery store? If only there were examples anywhere in the world of systems like this and how they played out.

[Bear Hanlon]

Like, you know, you know, the, the, you know, the 20th century or 24 20th century where 100 million people died or 21st century or.

[Andy Stumpf]

I love the idea we are going to tax the billionaires appropriately. Guess who's going to leave the state before you're sworn into office?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, I know, man. Yeah, they're going to, I mean, they're going to go down to the Cayman Islands or.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. Oh, we'll tax them when they're leaving. Okay, but what do you. I just hope, you know, and again, I'm not a Socioeconomic activity expert. And I'm not a huge studier of history. I'm aware though that this particular example of a concept has been tried many times.

[Bear Hanlon]

Many times.

[Andy Stumpf]

I almost to a degree, want it to play itself out in New York. So we can say, listen, we did a practice test, here are the results. So if you continue to vote for things like this, these are the results you can expect. And don't hit me with this, well, it's never been executed properly. Bullshit.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, that's what they say. I know that's what they say. Like that just was never done, Right. If it's done this time around, it's you guys, right?

[Andy Stumpf]

You're going to do it, right?

[Bear Hanlon]

It's crazy, man. It is wild. And if that guy wins, it's like, wow.

[Andy Stumpf]

By all indications, yeah, crazy. He's on track to win.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's crazy.

[Andy Stumpf]

It is to me, insane.

[Bear Hanlon]

It is. I mean, it's in New York too, so it's symbolic. I mean, that's, you know. But I, I, I agree with you. Part of me is kind of like, all right, get the popcorn out. Because like even the most liberal people, like when they're living in that. And it's, if it becomes a show, which I think it will be, if they, I mean, if, if it's like, you know, the grocery store run by the state and all this, like, it'll, it'll. And then they're gonna go, oh man, maybe those, like those hillbilly conservatives, maybe they, maybe they have a point, you know, those simple folk.

[Andy Stumpf]

There are some, there are some examples. And again, I truly believe, I want people to believe what they want, live their life the way that they want to. But certain choices lead to certain consequences. San Francisco is a really good example of what I would describe, describe relatively liberal or left leaning policies, the expression of what that can look like when it's decriminalization of drugs, the way, you know, the homeless issue that they may have. Just the, the management and maintenance of that city. And I was with my wife, we were going to fly up, we flew into San Francisco and we were going to drive up the coast to go to a jiu jitsu seminar up in the redlands of California, which if people haven't been, it's amazing. You got to see these super thick, dense forests with these massive trees. But we land. She's like, I want to get a cup of coffee and a snack. Let's go downtown San Francisco. It's like, have you ever been to downtown San Francisco? And we had some Friends in the car too. And she's like, no, we should definitely go. I'm like, okay, so pull through downtown. About halfway through downtown, she says, I don't think we should get out here. Let's go find coffee somewhere else. And people can just Google San Francisco and what's going on there and what policies led to that and how long they have been in place. Place that the test answers are out there on a lot of this.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh yeah, and yeah, Portland. I mean, there's so many examples. Yeah, it looks like, like third world countries in some places.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't know how you correct it. I mean, so large businesses are running for the hills, which is going to give you these cavernous, you know, on Main street, if that's what they call it, these cavernous openings and retail buildings, which it, it's just like this compounding problem that doesn't seem to be getting in any better, but yet portrayed as the direction that we should take by some people in this country. And I don't know how they look at that and go, this is the way.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, it's like, you know, in San Francisco, that's like they, they like decriminalized like theft below, like a certain amount. So imagine you're a store owner and there's a guy in the aisle with his iPhone out doing with his calculator calculating how much can I steal deal. So like, you know, I can't get arrested for that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, I got another example.

[Bear Hanlon]

Like, how do you not be like, okay, and then you can't like stop them. You know what I mean? And if you call the cops, they're just like, oh, we're just gonna like write him a citation and if he doesn't show up for court, they throw it out. And they all know that there was a video of a girl that like was arrested for. She, I guess where she was the. It was 500 below was a citation.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

And the cops were talking to her because with the discount it was below 500, but they were charging her off of retail. And one of the cops is like, you don't get a discount, discount on theft. So they were charging and she was like arguing like, it's below 500 because it's 40 off. And they're like, it doesn't matter. Like, imagine how ridiculous it is. Like she has the entitlement to say, like, hey, I know the rule and I'm under 500, so just like, write me my citation. I'm not going to show up to court. It's going to get Thrown out and let me go on my way. And they're like. And like, that was one where like, no, we got you. But I mean, imagine being a store owner and all your extra costs of goods that you, you know, then. And then you're getting taxed by the city another 20% and then like, it's just, there's no way to success there, you know, as you know. You know, we know how hard it is to run a business and be profitable as it is. It's almost impossible to add theft and high taxes and, you know, regulation. It's just, it's a nightmare. And that's why everyone's leaving and it sucks.

[Andy Stumpf]

So I was in LA for a speech earlier this year and it went on up here and there was like, truly like a trinket gift shop. And it said on the door on the way in, everything in the store is $899. The non theft discount will be applied at check.

[Bear Hanlon]

Nice. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Smart. Love that. Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

The average cost of an item in there had to be five bucks.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

But I mean, okay. Creative solutions to problems we probably never thought we were going to have to encounter.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. That's sad that they had to come to that. But a trinket gift shop, that's very, very smart.

[Andy Stumpf]

I appreciate it.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, for sure. Love it.

[Andy Stumpf]

Talk to me about what you guys are doing for Veterans Day.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because this is pretty awesome and it's not the first time you've done it. I mean, this is a continuation of.

[Bear Hanlon]

What you've been doing. Yeah. So, you know, since the beginning, we've always tried to like leverage the platform to give back and do some good. Obviously in the early days it wasn't much. The, the checks were much smaller, but it was the same idea. And, you know, we wanted to live the values of what we were preaching. You know, as a brand, we're patriotic and support those who serve. And you know, part of that's just, that's how I was raised. So it's just kind of our personalities portrayed through the brand. So every, the last few years on Veterans Day, we'd always try to do something where we'd pledge like a bunch of our sales and profits and do like a, a big donation to like a 501C3. But last year year kind of got a wild idea of, you know, it would be cool if we could maybe pay off veteran medical bills. So I got linked up with an organization called Forgive Co. And they basically act as the, the broker that allows us to pay off people's bills randomly. So we'll send them the money and then they're plugged in with the debt collectors and then they'll like, they'll pay, pay it down and they handle all the paperwork on the back end where they send everyone their debt relief letter and like saying, this is gone. And, and so what's the size of that issue?

[Andy Stumpf]

Veteran debt, when it comes to medical.

[Bear Hanlon]

Specifically, it's pretty massive. I mean, I know it's at the very least, you know, high hundreds of millions, but I think it might even be in the billions.

[Andy Stumpf]

Really?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And, and I'm actually trying to get that exact number because for a bigger vision of this that I'll get to. So we tried that last year was like, well, this because he, they had hit me up about like, hey, you can do a good deed and pay off people's debt. And on the surface I was like, well, that's actually counter it to like the values of the brand because like, we don't, I don't like the victim mindset. And like, I'm not just going to pay off some guy's truck because he bought a raptor he couldn't afford. And now I'm like, I'm bailing him out. Like, that's, that's not how we roll. But I, I, I said, hey, could you do this? Could you filter it by veterans and have it classified under medical debt? Because I was like, no one deliberately incurs medical debt like you. You don't have medical bills because you're financially irresponsible.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah. You don't go to the ER because you're having a great day.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. You know, you could get T bone driving to work because some guy ran a red light and now you're 30 grand in the hole. Like, that's. So I was like, I, I like that idea because that's because someone just had a bad break. Right. And I want to help those people. So he got back to me and said, yep, because, you know, because of their DoD number, we can, we know their veteran status and, and medical debt is a classification of debt. So we can, we can actually apply that exact filter you want. So for last year, for four days, it was just, let's try this. We pledged 100% of profits for four days and the goal was to pay off 5 million in medical bills and we ended up doing an 11. So 50.

[Andy Stumpf]

Jesus.

[Bear Hanlon]

59. 5,800 plus veterans, you know, had their medical bills paid off completely and they.

[Andy Stumpf]

Had no idea that it was coming no idea.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, and it was honestly pretty cool. So I got to call quite a few. I. You know, it was probably eight or nine in total. Yeah. Just to, you know, kind of, hey, I'm the founder of One Primitive. You probably don't know who we are or who I am, but, like, I just want to let you know you're going to be getting a letter in the mail, and it's actually real. Like, it's. It's not a hoax. So, like, I just want to give you the news myself, myself. And those were super emotional and awesome conversations. Like, you know, people were crying on the phone and, like, one story, you know, these little, you know, examples of, like, you know, a single mother who got, you know, in a car accident going to work and then had to relearn basic skills. And she's already working two jobs, and now her wages are getting garnished and her credit scores in the tank. You know what I mean? Like, she's. She's already kind of, like, you know, carrying a heavy burden. So, like, when you tell someone and some of the numbers, like, worked out that much. Like, I think that girl's, you know, her debt was, like, 12 grand.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So, like, I'm like, oh, it's not.

[Andy Stumpf]

Dude, if you're living paycheck to paycheck.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

Might as well be 12 million.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. And then, you know, there was another guy who, like, wrote me a letter afterwards and basically was implying, like, he was getting ready to kill himself. And, like, he wanted to. Like, he. He asked for a sign to just have a reason. And then he got the debt letter in the mail the next day. So he. So I have his letter framed on my desk. And then he ended up checking himself into reason rehab. And then we end up, like, on Christmas because I knew he'd be all alone. Like, we sent him, like, $4,000 worth of gear on Christmas Day. And, like, he got to open it all up. So, like, you know, little things like that. Like, we got all the sizes and stuff. And then there was a Marine who was partially paralyzed. I think he had three kids, single father, and his debt was 183 grand. So on November 10th of last year, which is the Marine Corps birthday, we had to let him know that his bill was gone. So there's all these examples.

[Andy Stumpf]

You let him know that that was because of the Navy.

[Bear Hanlon]

What's that? Yeah. I did not. I did not. I should, though.

[Andy Stumpf]

That was a missed opportunity. I would have sent that letter on official Navy. You need to console with me on some of these things, because you can do a good deed, but also remind them that we're the big daddy.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's right.

[Andy Stumpf]

Birthday was the 13th.

[Bear Hanlon]

Oh, yeah, I've saw. I saw your Casey Rybeck post. Yeah, Casey Rybeck. Love it.

[Andy Stumpf]

That guy. God, I hate Steven Ago.

[Bear Hanlon]

Such a piece of the seal turned chef saved the day on the ship. Yeah, so we did that, and it was honestly awesome. You know, a lot of people got behind it, so it got a lot of momentum. And, you know, I got to go on Fox News. That was a huge help. And so we did that. Man, it just honestly blew me away because, like, once you got connected to some of the stories, like, this was just initially, like, an idea on, like, a piece of paper. But then I got, like, emotionally invested because I was like, man, this kind of rocked me a little bit because, you know, there's a lot of people that, like, changed their life overnight that were really in a bad place and, you know, lighten up that rucksack. So right when it concluded, I was out in Salt Lake City, and I went. I was on Evan's podcast, Black Rifle Coffee. And once, you know, once we stopped, you know, the podcast and the cameras are off, I was like, hey, man, I got to give you the 60 second elevator pitch. But, like, here's what we just did. And you guys, 100%, like, I want to make this bigger because now I'm fired up because. Because we started getting emails from people that were, like, very desperate emails, like, hey, this just happened. Like, I got in this car accident. This. I got a child. I got. My kid's sick. Like, we have this $60,000 bill. Like, can you pay it? And since we'd already just done this giant tranche, like, we couldn't just obviously start doing that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, it doesn't go on forever, you.

[Bear Hanlon]

Know, So I. I realized, okay, this was a awesome, like, mission success, but, like, we. We just literally barely scraped the surface because there's out. Hundreds of millions of dollars are outstanding. Right. So that's why I was like, what can we do next year to make this bigger?

[Andy Stumpf]

So.

[Bear Hanlon]

And I knew, you know, Black Rifle has been such a good example of giving back. You know what I mean? Because I would see, like, when we were much smaller, like, the things they would do around Veterans Day for, you know, veterans and first responders and the checks they'd be cutting to different charities. So I feel like they kind of set the standard. And I was like, all right, if there's anyone that would want to get this, but two would want to join the effort. It's them. So I gave Evan the 60 second elevator pitch and he was just like, dude, done like in, like, just let me know what you need. And this was last fall, like this was like late fall. Like we had already kind of of done it. So we both agreed, hey, we're going to do a combined effort and try to do 25 million in veteran medical bills this year. So from, so from November 7th to the 11th, depending on when this airs.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'll put it up before then to make sure.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay. Yeah. You know, both brands are going to pledge 100% of online profits from their respective websites towards the cause until we reach the goal.

[Andy Stumpf]

Did you notice a surge in people on the website?

[Bear Hanlon]

We did, yeah. And that's, and, and I can't stress that enough. That's why it works. Yeah, because like, people get so fired up because it's a feelgood thing and it's like a, a genuine cool. Cause that, that's why we're able to do it. I'm simply facilitating it. Like, you know what I mean? Now we've put a ton of work in to get it going and like, you know, we've been planning this since May. So like, you know, there's a lot of human bandwidth, but we're kind of just a conduit to, you know, ultimately be able to create that impact because the customers on, on, on a micro level are the ones allowing it to be possible. So yeah, for a five day sprint, we're going to try to do 25 million in total. You know, we're going to go 50, 50 on it. So we're going to do 12 and a half each. Selfishly, I, I hope that number is actually more but like, because we, again, we wanted to do five last year and then like it did so well when I got in, when we got into work the next day, my brother's our CFO and we got Mallory, the other co founder. We're like, hey, we gotta, we gotta, we got, we have to do more because like we got so much additional traffic that like this was, you know what I mean? Like, it wouldn't sit well for this now, you know, as you understand. And it's not fully black and white in the fact that like we just cannibalized so much inventory that we would have sold on Black Friday. That was like, you know, like we would have made a ton of money on Black Friday because it's the biggest retail moment. So there was this. Oh man, like we just, we just got Rid of a lot of inventory we really needed for the biggest retail moment of the year.

[Andy Stumpf]

But you might have picked up a.

[Bear Hanlon]

Lot of new clients. And we did. And we did. So that's why it's, you know, it's, it's not like as black and white as one might think. But, but we, we came up with the number based on our net operating margin of like what would be appropriate to like. So we went to a 11. Yeah. And, and obviously that was like way more than we would have ever, you know. So the number we're setting is 25. I think that would be huge. And you know, the goal is obviously for us to use our customer base to kick people over to Black Rifle and vice versa. You know, obviously we, we, we run in similar circles, but we also have like a, a megaphone reaching other audiences.

[Andy Stumpf]

So different market sectors for sure.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. So, you know, we're going to do our, you know, our thing on our end to try to, you know, get the born print of people to go also shot Black Rifle and then they're going to do the same thing. And then, you know, Matt and I and maybe Evan, you know, are going to, we're pursuing a bunch of media opportunities. So like I think Matt and I are going to go on Fox a couple times during, during that five day sprint and Matt and I actually just got back from Denver so we've actually already done 5 million because I wanted to, we wanted to get some.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yes, it's October, sir.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, so we did, we, we did that, we did that quietly in, in, in late July. So we each did two and a half. A half because one, we wanted to get the skin in the game. But we also wanted there to be some recipients of this year's cohort that we could, you know, be able to speak to and kind of like amplify the story. So once those people started receiving their, their letters, they noticed that one of the girls on the list, her debt was 341 grand. So they looked into her. She's a gold star spouse. Her husband was killed roadside bomb. He was in the turret army infantry in Iraq in 06. She was an army veteran herself. They have two, two kids. And then she got in a horrific car accident in, in, in, in Colorado. Had to be airlifted. Was in the hospital for like two weeks. Got like 18 plates in her face, all kinds of stuff.

[Andy Stumpf]

Jesus.

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, they didn't cover her bill, so she's had a $341,000 bill for many years. And obviously you can imagine the can.

[Andy Stumpf]

You imagine the weight of that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. Yeah. And so when we saw she was on the list, forgive. Co called me and they're like, hey, like, this is like a really unique story. So I called Matt. I was like, dude, we should go hand deliver her the letter.

[Andy Stumpf]

Oh, for sure.

[Bear Hanlon]

So he was like, done. So we got on a plane and met out there and. And met her after work and like, we. We gave her the letter. We were like, hey, we just. This was symbolic. But so we got to interview her and like, you know, capture some content around it. But she was obviously super grateful. It's a very emotional moment.

[Andy Stumpf]

Can you imagine being on the receiving end of that letter? Like, I don't even know. I can't even fathom what that would feel like. Everybody day knowing that regardless of how hard you work and living your, like, most purposeful, best life for yourself and your kids and there's this just this guillotine over your head. I cannot even fathom what that would feel like to have the cord cut on that and have it moved away.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. She was obviously very grateful. And I think the theme that I'm pulling out from a lot of these interactions is that once you get out, a lot of people have this. The idea that you kind of feel like you've been for forgotten and you're not relevant anymore and like, you're just. You were just kind of expendable. And she said, wow, this reminds me like, you know, I'm still am a part of a team and in a fraternity, you know, and, and. And just. It was. So they ended up interviewing her when Matt and I weren't there. And I think she got super emotional and just talked about what it meant to her. And we sent her a bunch of BP gear and black rifle, sent her a bunch of coffee and like, we're hooking her up and, you know, we still text himself.

[Andy Stumpf]

She's marketing this catastrophe for your own personal.

[Bear Hanlon]

And then. So Matt was actually in town in Virginia Beach a couple days ago, and we found out there was a local Virginia beach resident on the list. So we actually had her meet us over at our new retail store and we hand delivered her the letter. And her husband came. He was a former Marine, and hers wasn't that much. It was like 12 grand. But it was the same reaction, you know what I mean? Like, for her, that was. I mean, she was crying and saying like, this was like, I can't believe she said when she got the letter, she was in her kitchen and she just like stood there and stared her at. At it for like, you know, 10 minutes because she was like, what do I do? This is like this. This can't be real.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So it's just, man, it fires me up because, like, you know, we, we. I've been very fortunate to have built a platform through Born Primitive that never in a million years what I would have thought of, you know, became what it's become. So now there's like a bit of an obligation, a moral obligation. Okay. We have to use this to do some good. Yeah. And if I can simply act as a facilitator to create good and, and, and do it in a way where people are putting their dollars towards, you know, hopefully a brand, they. They. Morally, hopefully it's good gear, but on the back end of it, knowing it has a real impact. And obviously same thing with Black Rifle. There's a million coffee brands out there. And you know, I always talk about this with my marketing team. They're probably just sick of hearing about it. But like the, the, the. The case study of Black Rifle Coffee company and how, you know, Matt and Evan and Jared created this phenomenon. They should be literally start studying this at Harvard, like, you know, with the, with the business students of creating a new brand. Brand that they recognize. There's this giant space of, of this, you know, thing that we all consume. But there wasn't any brand at the time that spoke to guys like us, you know what I mean? And there was good product, but there was really no brand. Like, I don't, I don't like, really align with like a Starbucks. Like, you know, it's like, you know, go there in the airport and get. But it's like there's not really a moral or ethical connection.

[Andy Stumpf]

It's transactional.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, it's very. And it's a, it's purely a product. But like, what, what they were able to create was like, no, we're actually going to create a brand. So guys are actually proud to align with it. And that's why, you know, that like the merch. Psych. You know, obviously your shop looks beautiful, by the way. Like, all that merch you have on the side, that's, that's because you guys have created more than just a coffee company. There's, there's a, there's a, there's an association that when that logo is on your chest, you. That, that's saying something about who you are.

[Andy Stumpf]

We do 60 to 70% merchandise over coffee, Jack. See, the reality is we are a merchandise store that sells coffee, not a coffee shop that sells Merch.

[Bear Hanlon]

And that's ex. That proves my point of like the strength of the brand. And it's, it's really not about the product anymore. It's, you know, it's a, it's a nice screen printed T shirt. Right? Anyone can do that.

[Andy Stumpf]

But the designs don't suck either. Oh yeah, no, you guys do the designs. It'd be stick figures.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, well, in, in, in there and, and I don't really mind saying the name but, but Jack, we, we've, we have some friends at Jack Links and one of the senior people there was trying to, I think they're trying to stand up some E commerce stuff and they were like, hey, can we like kind of peek behind the hood of what you guys do? And it was very rudimentary, basic what they were doing. And he got on the phone with me and he was talking like, I want to, like I want to sell way more merch. He's like, and he was like, you know, Black Rifle, I think they're doing like 40 million a year just in T shirts. Like we can be doing that. Like he was trying to develop new business for, for Jack Links. And I had to be very brutally honest with him. I said, hey, no one's going to wear a Jack Link Links T shirt. Like it's a great product. I said, I, I probably should buy stock in your company because I eat pounds of it every year. But I said it's you, you, you got, you're comparing apples and oranges. You guys aren't Black Rifle coffee. You've developed a really good business. But no one's like rocking that to the airport like, because it's just weird, you know, I mean, just like no one's wearing a Starbucks shirt. You know what I mean? It's just, it's different.

[Andy Stumpf]

God, you really don't see people wearing.

[Bear Hanlon]

Starbucks or you know, people aren't even wearing an Apple shirt and you know, it's like Apple's the biggest brand on the planet and like your people, people aren't rocking Apple shirts. So it's, it's a, it's a different, like you've created.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think Nvidia is larger than them on a value basis. It's not a big deal.

[Bear Hanlon]

But anyway. And you know they have their feed your wild side campaign with like the, the Sasquatch. I was like, your only chance is to throw feed your wild side on a shirt with Sasquatch. And I said people would buy that just because it's different, but they're not going to buy A shirt that just says Jack links across the chest.

[Andy Stumpf]

They will not.

[Bear Hanlon]

So, you know, kind of going on a tangent, but as far as the strength of brand. But I, I truly believe you guys, guys have set the standard of how to. And now obviously there's a million copycats. You know what I mean? And, and that's. That's a testament. If you've done it right, that's of course going to happen.

[Andy Stumpf]

You know, what's interesting is, you know, when you say that some of these people feel like they're forgotten, I think that's accurate. And I don't think that people should look to the government to solve that problem.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly.

[Andy Stumpf]

The reality is you're useful to the military. And I say this, I'm curious if you agree to this or agree with this, but I think it's largely true. And of course, nothing is absolutely true, but you're of a great value to the military when you're serving. But, man, when you leave, they don't give you a second thought because it's not their core responsibility to worry about what happens with you afterwards. There are programs that are in place. The VA has its pros and its cons. Tricare has its pros and its cons. A lot of times, though, people will negatively talk about both tricare and the va, and sometimes it's just an unwillingness of the veteran to actually engage with those systems. So the systems are there to help them, but they don't necessarily engage. That's one portion of it. There is the. The quality and standard of care is another one. But the government is not suited to solve those problems. But brands like Born Primitive and Black Rifle, and I wish I could. I mean, it's. You know, if Evan was in here, I'd say the same thing. Like, I'm just a. I'm adjacent to Black Rifle. Like, I wasn't involved in any of the founding of it.

[Bear Hanlon]

Right.

[Andy Stumpf]

I have one of their. The locations up here. But the, the building of the brand is on those guys. I came. I was late to the. The party. But those entities are better suited to solve the problem than the government is. And I think that that's actually the solution to it. You're more nimble. You can put programs like this together rapidly.

[Bear Hanlon]

No red tape.

[Andy Stumpf]

No red tape.

[Bear Hanlon]

I mean, how quick was it? Me and Evan, I'm sitting at a table just like this, and I was like, in 60 seconds. Yo, yo, dude, you in? I'm in. Done. We should.

[Andy Stumpf]

That would only take. That would take two terms in Congress.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. And that. That's as simple as it was. He, you know, we shook hands, I got on a flight, and then I said, hey, I'll circle back in, like, a month after holiday, whatever. We'll get our teams together.

[Andy Stumpf]

And then how quickly did the impact. How quickly was it felt in the real world? Right. These people that are actually getting. That's what I'm saying. The government. I hate it when people when like, okay, we have a problem, and to solve it, I would look to the.

[Bear Hanlon]

Government, the most inefficient organization on the planet. Yeah, no, they're not suited to solve it. It's a good point, man. And so just to expand on maybe what this could become as we look at it, and so I actually flew out to Salt Lake City, and I got to sit in on, like, a team meeting at a big Zoom call. And I was sitting next to Ev, and he was kind of dictating, okay, this is like, an operational priority for us now. Like, this. This is basically our Veterans Day plan. And that was really cool to hear that coming from him. So I just sat in on the call that they were. It was. They were talking about some E commerce stuff. And one of the guys on the call, to his credit, one of the Black Rifle employees was, like, Googling, like, the. The outstanding, like, VA medical bills. And I think the number was, like, 800 million or something. And I don't know if that's accurate, but we all kind of paused. We're like, well, is there a world where this. These, you know, US and Black Rifle Coffee Company could eradicate 100% of the debt as two civilian organizations?

[Andy Stumpf]

Maybe not with just your two organizations, but you could.

[Bear Hanlon]

But could we rally?

[Andy Stumpf]

You could rally, yes.

[Bear Hanlon]

And, you know, could we then rally other brands and, you know, could. Then could you get, you know, the Anheuser Busches of the world and Visa and Amex? Like, all of a sudden, you're getting these, like, giant donations because they want to be a part of it. You know what I mean? And what could it be become? So that's, you know, getting kicked around of, like, what. What does phase three of this look like? You know, we're in phase two now.

[Andy Stumpf]

See, is Bezos gives you four days of profits from Amazon.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Or, hey, a. A strategic tweet to Elon. All of a sudden, he said, I'll take out 50 of it. You know, whatever. You. You never know.

[Andy Stumpf]

But I almost don't want them to do that. I almost want you guys to spearhead and collect the forgotten toys that have Gone out and done great things after the military and solve the problem. Problem, yeah. Yourselves. Veterans solving their own veteran issues.

[Bear Hanlon]

And that's why I like it. And obviously, as veteran owned brands like it, it works because we're, it's our family. You know what I mean? And, but, but I, I want all.

[Andy Stumpf]

Having said that, don't take, don't turn away money from those brands. You guys get spearhead. Because, you know, Bezos, if you want to give 50 or Elon, you know, be supportive of this.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, exactly. Yes. If you're listening, Elon. Yeah, yeah, call me.

[Andy Stumpf]

Does that even have time to listen to a podcast?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, he tweets. He tweets at a lot of people. That's why we were joking. I was like, during the campaign, should we be like, should we fire out some tweets to like these different guys and see if we get a hit? You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, Kayla, Evan knows some people who are close enough to Elon where you might not have to tweet.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Probably go with a text.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay. That would be pretty cool.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

But that's where my mind goes, like, okay, with, with our kind of unique access in placement in some areas that other people don't have, could we make this a bigger thing? But more importantly than just cutting a check, like getting to the root of the problem, because when this thing finishes this year, if we're able to do 25 million, if you combine last year and this year, there probably will be close to 30,000 veterans in a giant data set. That many of Those, you know, 30,000 plus people had debt because of deficiencies in the VA. Likely not all of them. You know what I mean? But at the very least, you could conclude that there will be some really good case studies that if we are able to give the VA this data, they could actually, you know, identify. Oh, that girl that lives in rural, you know, Arkansas that had the fifty thousand dollar bill because she was like airlifted from a car accident. All right? She can't dictate what hospital she goes to when she's airlifted. So that, that was on us. We actually should have covered that claim. You know what I mean? Okay, got it. Like, so create a system on the back end to fix these, these problems. Because some of the people I spoke to, a lot of the reasons they had the bill was like, like, they, their claim was denied, but it should have been. But then they're on the phone for like nine months trying to get through to someone, and then they just kick to the next person. And then, hey, we'll call you back in a week. And before you know it, it's now gone to collections and you can't get a hold of anyone.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's how you end up with a gun in your mouth.

[Bear Hanlon]

Especially when there's other stressors in your life and you feel like you've gotten forgotten and like the VA's giving you the run around. I mean, we've all been on the, I mean, I'm sure you have when you get on the phone with the va, and God bless them, there's some great ones. And I've, you know, I've had some people that were like really nice and helpful. But then you get the people that just seem like they're completely disinterested and they're, you know, they know they can't be fired and they, they put, they put you on hold for an hour and then they, it disconnects and like, and then you just say, all right, screw it, I don't need that like chiropractic care for my disc problem. My back, I'll just deal with it. You know what I mean? I'll get it on my own. And that's obviously a very small example of, you know, and I have the means to do that, some don't. Yeah. But so could we get to the foundation of it? So I'm actually going up to D.C. in a couple weeks and one of my meetings is with, it's either going to be with the Secretary of the VA or his like first, you know, you know, his right hand man.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

And to have this conversation and then I'm meeting with like 10 different senators and congressmen that same day. Day I have like 12 meetings lined up. I'm just going right down the line.

[Andy Stumpf]

You're assuming the government's going to be functioning.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's true. And that's why I already had a, I was supposed to go two weeks ago. We had to cancel it. So I'm, I'm hoping we have to cancel this one. But that's kind of the long term play is at. Could we actually like as two civilian organizations implement some change and, and with the va, what I'm going to tell them is, hey, this isn't meant to shame you guys, but I'm just going to have a very valuable data set that I think could really help, help you guys. Like maybe, you know, let's, you know, put our ego aside and just say, hey, yeah, maybe there were some instances in here that was just because of a system error on the back End and, hey, let's make a few tweaks. And then maybe that girl in rural, rural Arkansas gets her claim approved and doesn't have her wages garnished and her credit shoot below 600. And now she can't get a lease on anything or a car unless she wants to pay 40% interest. And she's, you know, working two jobs now, and she's a single mom, and she's already, you know what I mean? Like, these are the downstream effects of what it does for all these people that go to collections. I mean, you're screwed.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So anyway, that's. That's the, you know, the team guy mentality of, like, all right, how do we, like, make this way bigger than we could have ever imagined? And how, you know, how do we, you know, how are we part of, you know, even bigger change beyond just like, you know, slapping a band aid on every year, which obviously still has a huge impact. I mean, it'll be real people getting changed, but we'll see. Just getting started.

[Andy Stumpf]

I love it, and I just love the fact that the community is solving the community's problems.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, it feels good. Feels good.

[Andy Stumpf]

I feel like you apply that to almost every community. Fill in the blank. Your local community, literally where you live, if you encounter problems, maybe don't look to the city to solve them and, like, it's a pothole or something like that. Probably go to the city for that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

But others, there's so many things that you can solve outside of looking to the government or government entity, and they'll just move so much faster.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man.

[Andy Stumpf]

That's awesome. How's the retail storefront going?

[Bear Hanlon]

It's great. Yeah. It's been open for about three weeks now. And, yeah, it's been killer. That's awesome. So now we, you know, we have to decide. All right, when can we conclude we have enough data to double down, triple down on this? I mean, I'm already saying we do have enough data, but now we got to pick the. We got to pick the location. You know, I want to do like, San Diego and like Tampa, because SOCOM's there, you know, like, ones that kind of make sense for our brand. And. And then there's a company up in Williamsburg that actually helps you with, like, they, like, they'll send, like, teams, like, you know, to do, like, you know, to do the build out from Virginia, but they're all licensed in all these different states.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is it your guys goal to maintain ownership of all of the storefronts?

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll own everything. Yeah. So.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because, I mean, obviously there's competing models there. You could franchise it out.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, that comes with complications, but owning them all yourself comes with complications. 100%.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. Yeah. Pros and cons to both. But as of now, the intent is just to own all of them ourself.

[Andy Stumpf]

And I think if you can financially manage that, I think that's the way.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

For just for control.

[Bear Hanlon]

Totally. Yeah. You can keep them uniform and obviously having to have employees in other states will be a pain in the butt.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

So there'll be some, there'll be some administrative stuff that'll be annoying, but I mean, we're always solving that kind of stuff, so it's just another thing to add to the plate.

[Andy Stumpf]

What's the one product you want to make that you haven't been able to yet?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, expanding footwear has been, like, huge for me because, like, it's, it's such a game changer for our business. I mean, I wish I really. Yeah. It's crazy, man. Oh, it's crazy.

[Andy Stumpf]

I wouldn't have guessed that.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. So the cool thing is, like, when we, we started hitting a headwind like late 2022, and then 2023 was a really hard year. It was our hardest year in, like, really long time.

[Andy Stumpf]

I think that was actually for a lot of people, it was because we were coming out of COVID Totally.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yep. There was the hangover. And so, you know, I guess being dumb enough to not know any better, I was like, all right, we can't, we need to get more aggressive right now. We can't do the opposite, like, typical, like, team guy mentality. So that's when 2023, we launched our training shoe, the Savage one, and we launched Born Primitive Outdoor. And then we, the following year we launched tactical. So, like in a 12 month period, we launched three new divisions of our company. And the cool thing is, after a year, you could look at our top 10 sales reports every morning, morning, and seven or eight of the top 10 would be all coming from those three new partitions. Really business, you know, and then it would be like a black pair of leggings, you know, which is always going to be like a top product. Yeah. But it was really cool to see that. Okay. Like, we placed some big bets at a time when most people were like freaking ducking for cover and we were freaking flanking, man. And now it's. But like, the footwear is the big. I mean, if you look every morning, like six of the top ten are Savage One shoes. Wow. Which is great because know they're, they're, they cost more so it makes your average order value go up. And I think people just assign more value to shoes than clothes. Like for some reason just psychologically like if I were to give you a, a new pair of shoes versus like those pants, you likely would put more value on a, on a shoe. You know like a, a new pair of kicks. Maybe, maybe not you because you, you're in the.

[Andy Stumpf]

I don't even know.

[Bear Hanlon]

You know, it's just weird. I don't know.

[Andy Stumpf]

This is a question I've never spent any time thinking about.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Probably not worth any, any extra bandwidth.

[Andy Stumpf]

I mean we are bipeds so. Yeah, you would appreciate a good pair of shoes. Yeah, for sure.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. But so we're doubling down on shoes. So for in 2026 we'll have a running shoe, a tactical boot, kind of like a, like a Solomon type boot but with a wider toe box. We have a street shoe coming out kind of like a van style cool guy shoe. We got these high top savage ones.

[Andy Stumpf]

Called the don't be displaying new products.

[Bear Hanlon]

This will be next Veterans Day by the way. We're a ways out. And then we want to develop an bear barefoot hunting boot. So that's like a barefoot last. Yeah, like a, like a barefoot boot. Yeah, like the. So Aaron, we're working with Aaron. Right. Because Aaron really wants it and I think in that.

[Andy Stumpf]

Interesting.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. And I think that'll be sick. I swear I'll kill you if you.

[Andy Stumpf]

Have like five individual toes.

[Bear Hanlon]

No, no, no, no. Not like that. No, no, no, no. And we have a.

[Andy Stumpf]

That'll be the end of our friends.

[Bear Hanlon]

We have a barefoot trainer coming out and it's not the toe kind, it's just like a minimalist trainer. So we got all kinds of new stuff coming out. But as far as like I mean everything we want to make, we're making man. I, I was. Because you know we're in Montana now. I was thinking how cool would it be to do like a limited edition cowboy boot at some point just only make like 500 units.

[Andy Stumpf]

What's wrong with you?

[Bear Hanlon]

But that would be awesome. Like just some wild. You know what I mean? But yeah, this is, you know, what.

[Andy Stumpf]

Is wrong with you?

[Bear Hanlon]

But hey, you asked, you know, so I literally thought of that last night. Like that would like popped in my head last night cuz I'm in Montana.

[Andy Stumpf]

But how would you. I mean what would that be? A barefoot cowboy boot?

[Bear Hanlon]

It wouldn't. No no, you would just make it a sick boot. But it was just meant to be like a limited edition. Like this is just for fun. Like it, this is like you know, 500 pairs only rhinestones. Yeah, there you go.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, my 17 year old daughter could help bedazzle it.

[Bear Hanlon]

There you go. Yeah, but, but you know, we've pretty much done everything that we want to do for, I mean, I think we're good for a while, but we'll see. I mean we are, we're always kicking around ideas and that's the, the blessing and the curse because obviously if you expand too much you could kill yourself. But you have to be very like we were very methodical. Like I think we could steal market share in outdoor and tactical. And then I think tactical specifically we could lead to big government contracts which the will change your business business overnight. You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

You want to talk about an impact on your P. L. Oh yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

And you imagine it pre booking like a 100 million dollar contract that like every year you get 20 million just right off the top, you know, it's crazy. Yeah. And that wouldn't even be that big of a contract. So we're in that game now. Now we haven't like, you know, we haven't landed any, any tuna yet. You know, there's a deep sea fishing analogy but.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, but you have hooks in the water.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. Yep. And it only you land one and you're eating good for a year, you know what I mean? So we're, we're in that. But that took logistically because you got it, it's got to be made in the USA so you got to get on a product production line and you know these big, you know, factories, they don't take any Joe Schmo, you know what I mean? Like they're making Carhartt and all these big giant brands. So just to get a conversation with them, you have to have some credibility.

[Andy Stumpf]

I even thought about that. Yeah, you need to have operational time in their line and, and you have.

[Bear Hanlon]

To be able to say, hey, we are legit. Here's our numbers, here's this, here's what we think we could do. And they go, right, I will take a chance on you, you know, but then there's the dilemma of like having to keep the line running, you know what I mean? Like if we're not getting government orders and they're like, oh hey, we need your 5,000 unit pant order and we're like, well these are 200 pants that we have to sell for 400. And they're, you know what I mean? We don't have, you know, Uncle Sam's the only buyer, and they're not, you know, they're on a government shutdown right now. You know, you could see that's, it's, it'll be a tricky one, but if you can thread the needle, then it's, it presents just massive opportunity.

[Andy Stumpf]

So how long do you think this shutdown will continue?

[Bear Hanlon]

Well, it's a big, it's a big game of chicken right now. And the Democrats are, are, are trying to position themselves from, like, a point of leverage of like, they're not going to flinch. You know, I mean, that's why they're going on the air and being like, every day that passes, we are like our, you know, we get stronger, like, you know, the favorite. And I'm like, do you genuinely think that, or is that a positioning that you hope they see that? You know what I mean?

[Andy Stumpf]

It's a talking point.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, but, you know, it's like, yeah, use the analogy. Like the game theory. You got two cars driving head on at each other, and you're going to see who, you're, who's going to swerve. Curve first, right?

[Andy Stumpf]

Flash dance theory, tractors. Kevin Baking's got his shoelaces tied around. It's just going back to the Midwest for you.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, but, you know, imagine if, you know, before the cars, you know, go, this guy in this car, you know, chugs a bottle of Jack Daniels, rips his shirt off and starts blurring Metallica. He's, he's, you know, positioning himself to make the other guy swerve because of, like, the perception of what that looks like. Now, little do they know that that's actually Coca Cola in the Jack Daniels handle. And he's, you know, doesn't even like Metallica. Yeah, but, you know what I mean. But he's, it's the optic. He likes it'. Optic. So it's, it'll be curious to see. Like. But I don't know, man. It's, it, it sucks because, like, you know, obviously, like, there, in my opinion, there was a mandate. And the, this is where I get fired up because Chuck Schumer, they did this resolution in March, and he was quoted saying, this is a clean resolution. So we're just going to pass it. You know, we, it's our obligation, you know, because it takes 60 senators, right? That's why when I see, like, CNN and they're like, well, they control the Senate, it's in the presidency, blah, blah, blah, like how this is on them. It's like, it's actually not. Because it doesn't take. It takes. It takes 60. So this. It's not like a bill. You know what I mean? And, you know, just the fact that they passed this in March and now they're claiming that all of a sudden they can't pass it when it's like, almost identical to the one in March. And literally, Schumer was quoted in March saying, hey, it is a clean resolution. This is a resolution. This, it's different. And now they're like, oh, we need to have all these things that we couldn't get in the big, beautiful bill. So we're going to try to backdoor it into this, and if they don't accept it, we're just going to, like, we're going to go down with the ship and. And hope.

[Andy Stumpf]

What does that even look like?

[Bear Hanlon]

I don't know, because, you know, I'm, you know, it's like, what if airport starts shutting down, like with tsa? I mean, I don't know how it works, but, like, are TSA agents able to keep working? Imagine the, the effect on the economy if TSA can't come in anymore and all, you know, airlines are grounded right now. If that happens, obviously there's gonna be huge pressure. Like, they're gonna. They're gonna work out a deal.

[Andy Stumpf]

Because I feel like it would work. Yeah. All of a sudden things would. Magically.

[Bear Hanlon]

You would think so. But again, it's the game theory. Who's gonna flinch? Lynch first? Are the. Are. Would the Republicans say, okay, we have to get this done, so give the illegals this, the Medicaid, and let's move on and let's figure it out later. Or do you stick to your guns? Of the bill that was passed and the mandate that we saw in November with every swing state going one way, when you say that's actually democracy, so you have to honor that mandate. You know what I mean? Like, the people spoke.

[Andy Stumpf]

We need to flush the toilet with these people.

[Bear Hanlon]

Exactly. And that's why I kind of just. I'm frustrated with all of it. Like, I'm. I am, you know, you know, conservative and Republican, but at the same time, I also acknowledge, like, the whole system's kind of effed, you know, I mean, it's not like I'm a big fanboy of, like, a Republican senator. I'm, I'm like, I think, like, you know, if, if. If you get a few beers in me and, and give me another Crenshaw.

[Andy Stumpf]

Lower back tattoo, yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

Get a few beers in me and get me in a room with those guys. I probably will have some, you know, no filter there for a minute. But I hope they can figure it out, man, because it's. It's just. It's frustrating and.

[Andy Stumpf]

Well, let's end it on a positive note, because I'll drop this because we've had it for almost three hours.

[Bear Hanlon]

Holy.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah, I'll drop this right before. For Veterans Day. So I'm assuming you guys will have talked about what we talked about, the medical, debt relief.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Andy Stumpf]

What would be the best place, though, for people to, once they hear this, if there's something they want to get involved with, learn more about it, support it, spread the word, all that good stuff.

[Bear Hanlon]

Super easy. Just go to born primitive.com, black Rifle Coffee Company dot com.

[Andy Stumpf]

As I said, I'm assuming Evan's gonna ban this thing too.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah. All of both brands will be heavily promoting it. We're going to be promoting it together, but literally just go to either their website, buy some coffee, buy some clothes, like, you know what I mean? If you're gonna get it anyway, it's a great opportunity to. For it to be for a good cause. It's honestly a cool story. If it's a gift, like, you can say the backstory of. Of, like, what, you know, what this was about. Get your shopping out of the way before, you know, the holiday. So. But it's that simple. And from, you know, our clothing, we got something for everyone. You workout stuff. You know, sweatpants, flannels, jeans, taxable outdoor. I mean, shoes. We got everything. So I think we could, you know, meet anyone's needs that's in the market. And obviously, you know, the goal is, is to, with Black Rifle, you know, more than double the impact of last year. And I think we can get it done. I mean, they have a big megaphone, right?

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

And you guys, ours has gotten a lot bigger, too. Yeah. And it looks like, you know, we'll get some cool media opportunities to, you know, through the Fox News of the World and places like that. And obviously, you know, talking about it here, like, every little bit helps. So we. We appreciate everyone coming out. And I can't stress enough, like, the reason it's possible is because of people coming to support it. Like, again, we are simply facilitating it, but it's because people go, hell, yeah, that's actually a really cool thing. Let me go buy a pair of hunting pants or let me, you know, let me go buy some bags of coffee. You know what I mean? And and that, you know, very grateful and. And appreciative of. Of. Of the people who, you know, kind of think like that and. And. And, you know, vote with your pocketbook, you know what I mean? And support brands that align with your values. So I dig it, dude.

[Andy Stumpf]

What else? What do you want to close out with?

[Bear Hanlon]

That's it, man. I mean, I appreciate you bringing me on.

[Andy Stumpf]

Yeah.

[Bear Hanlon]

I think this might be the earliest podcast. Best ever.

[Andy Stumpf]

Full.

[Bear Hanlon]

Full Benny. 7am Start time.

[Andy Stumpf]

Knows what time it is.

[Bear Hanlon]

It's 8pm Right now on a Friday night.

[Andy Stumpf]

But it also nets you the rest of your day to go do awesome stuff in Montana.

[Bear Hanlon]

Yeah, well, I'm flying to Boise in a couple hours.

[Andy Stumpf]

Perfect.

[Bear Hanlon]

Y.

[Andy Stumpf]

My wife and I will probably meet you at the airport because I almost screwed up scheduling today. We have a flight at noon as well. That's awesome. You're in here early. Let's get out.

[Bear Hanlon]

I think mine's at one, so. Yeah, I think we're good.

[Andy Stumpf]

What airline you on?

[Bear Hanlon]

I gotta check. I don't know. You're busy. Yeah, exactly. I haven't checked. Checked in yet.

[Andy Stumpf]

My wife, you know what she appreciates most about the shorts and the leggings?

[Bear Hanlon]

What's that?

[Andy Stumpf]

The positioning of the seams.

[Bear Hanlon]

Okay. Yep. That matters. With the ladies, that matters.

[Andy Stumpf]

Like, what are you talking about? And people can just Google this one or use their own imagination. They're in the right spot. I was like, awesome.

[Bear Hanlon]

There you go. Yeah. And I'm sure you appreciate that as well.

[Andy Stumpf]

I'm happy when she's happy.

[Bear Hanlon]

That's right. Yep.

[Andy Stumpf]

Cool. All right.

[Bear Hanlon]

Cool, man. Hey, thanks so much for having me. Cool.