Episode 416 - Dan Ellis - The journey to rebuild after losing the brand he spent a lifetime building

Summary

Cleared Hot Episode 416 – Dan Hull: The Journey to Rebuild After Losing the Brand He Spent a Lifetime Building

Date: November 17, 2025
Host: Andy Stumpf
Guest: Dan Hull (Founder of OTB, shoe industry veteran)

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights Dan Hull’s extraordinary journey through the footwear industry—from honing his craft in historic New England factories, to working with iconic brands (Nike, Adidas, Reebok), creating innovative military footwear (OTB boots), and enduring painful business setbacks. Hull’s resilience is central: despite losing the original OTB brand after a buyout, he reclaimed the name and rebuilt, now spearheading a resurgent venture serving both military elites and civilian markets. The conversation dives deep into the entrepreneurial realities of manufacturing, brand building, and navigating American industrial challenges, while highlighting invaluable lessons on adaptation and grit.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Military Collaboration

• Learning the Trade: Dan grew up learning shoemaking in New England, working early with Nike and later Adidas and Reebok.
• Military Needs: Transitioned into military footwear when he discovered just how underserved the market was for high-performance boots. (03:41)
  • "Military is underserved. No one cares about their feet." – Dan Hull (01:41)
  • Commercial issue: Soldiers receive standard-issue boots but most (~75%) buy their own due to quality/fit dissatisfaction.

2. Manufacturing in America: Barriers and Realities

• Berry Amendment: All military-supplied textile goods must be U.S.-made, down to the fiber. This creates significant supply chain and manufacturing challenges, especially with outdated specs. (07:49–14:21)
• Industry Exodus: U.S. shoemaking largely moved overseas for cheap labor; domestic supply chains withered in the 70s–80s.
  • "If I go to Asia today for a new shoe, I have a hundred million suppliers around me... The supply chain used to be like that in the US. It ain't no more." – Dan Hull (13:23)

3. Rise and Fall of OTB (Over The Beach)

• Genesis: Developed OTB boots specifically for military over-the-beach operations, focusing on water drainage and rapid drying—addressing firsthand operator feedback.
  • "Listening to pole vaulters or military guys, it was always about little things—dry quick, waterproof leathers..." – Dan Hull (49:40)
• Acquisition by New Balance: After “bank of Dan” funding ran dry, Hull sold OTB outright to New Balance; despite high hopes, the acquisition led to delays, isolation, and eventual shutdown.
  • "We thought we had all these assets at our disposal—which we had none." – Dan Hull (53:50)
  • "We had a plan to hit 100 million. But production was a 3-year cycle. I was used to 3 months in Asia." (54:19)
• Devastating Outcome: New Balance shuttered OTB; Hull lost seven figures and, more painfully, years of relationship-building and sweat equity.
  • "Beyond the money, it was relationships that really killed me." (58:40)

4. Entrepreneurial Resilience & Reinvention

• Staying in the Fight: Hull consulted, built new designs for brands like Altama and Deckers (parent of Hoka, Ugg), constantly responding to demand from military and law enforcement.
• The Comeback: By leveraging old contacts and the rise in demand, he launched OTB 2.0.
  • Regained “OTB” trademark after New Balance let it lapse—cost: $250.
  • "Right place, right time." (66:41)
• Navigating Partnerships: Faced more partner conflicts and lawsuits but ultimately rebuilt the company with trusted allies and a tight, high-performing team.
  • Projected 2025 revenue: nearly $10 million in first year post-relaunch; plans to double within three years.

5. Product Innovation & Operator Feedback

• Signature Innovations:
  • Abyss Boot: First major ‘over the beach’ boot with bottom/strategic drainage, quick-dry leathers.
  • "T Cool" Shoe: Skate shoe-inspired, flat-soled, beloved by elite military for parachuting and aviation due to comfort and low profile. (77:03–78:48)
  • Altama Maritime Assault: Hull-designed, “Super Chuck Taylor” for water ops; ongoing royalties via licensing.
  • Incline Mid: OTB’s answer to dominate water/land cross-over footwear and compete with European favorites like Salomon.
• Fit is King: Emphasis on anatomical lasts for actual operator feet—wider, fuller fit for long rucks; multiple widths.
  • "The best shoe is the one that fits." – Dan Hull (94:03)

6. Industry Reflections: Made in the USA, Automation, New Challenges

• Manufacturing Headwinds:
  • Up-to-date U.S. production is hampered by obsolete government specs, lack of skilled labor, and limited modern machinery.
  • Automation is slow to catch up due to the craft-intensive work required (laser cutting is making some inroads).
• Regulatory/Purchasing Ironies:
  • “Made in USA” is often a loophole—brands send uppers overseas, assemble here, and slap on the U.S. label.
  • "No one wants to do that work here any more. ‘Bring the jobs back’... but no one really wants to do it." – Dan Hull (110:19)
• Entrepreneurial Wisdom:
  • Have a plan, trust your gut, but prepare for—indeed, expect—failure, pivots, and legal wrangling. Build your team wisely.
  • "Go with your gut. Spidey sense never fails. If you have the right team, you'll succeed." – Dan Hull (69:02, 69:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Berry Amendment, the Realities:
  • "We could make good boots in America—but only a few suppliers, and the specs are horrific."' – Dan Hull (13:23)
• On Highs and Lows of Business:
  • "For five years at Reebok? Great bonuses, money in the bank, holiday parties... last three years? A layoff every October." (26:02)
  • On losing everything with OTB: “I’d bet the farm, my 401k… it was literally down to the wire. The day I signed that deal [with New Balance], the bank came to take my house.” (69:02)
• Entrepreneurial Grit:
  • "If you want to do something, just get a plan. Pair that with a willingness to continue working regardless of what happens." – Andy Stumpf (118:10)
• On Kanye West:
  • "I spent 3 weeks with him—when he’s one-on-one? 90% fine. But he wavers." – Dan Hull (28:05)
  • "I still haven’t been paid… I sent him a few invoices." (32:27)
• On Product Testing:
  • "I won’t put anything out that hasn’t been tested by guys themselves." (60:35)
• On Industry Nostalgia:
  • "The Nike Waffle Trainer—back in the day, cutting it open to see how it worked… that was what pulled me in." (96:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:43–07:55 — Military’s boot procurement, Berry Amendment, how OTB started
• 08:21–21:07 — Dan’s background: New England shoe industry, Adidas, Reebok, innovation cycles
• 26:02–32:27 — Highs and hard lessons at Reebok, layoffs, pivot to founding OTB
• 46:36–53:39 — Genesis of OTB, Navy/SEAL involvement, product development for elite forces
• 53:50–58:40 — OTB sells to New Balance, delays, loss of brand, personal and professional fallout
• 61:31–65:07 — Dealings with Deckers (Hoka/Ugg), product reinvention, relaunching OTB
• 66:41–71:34 — Regaining the OTB trademark, bootstrapping the comeback, effective marketing (geo-targeted ads, Instagram)
• 77:03–79:27, 94:03–96:17 — Deep dive: “T Cool” shoe, design for operators; fit is everything
• 110:19–112:33 — Manufacturing labor, automation’s slow disruption, industry-wide challenges
• 118:10–120:10 — Lessons learned, advice for entrepreneurs, closing thoughts

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Further Resources

• OTB Boots – otbboots.com
• Instagram: @otb_boots
• Altama Maritime Assault, Aku boots, Hoka, and other referenced brands
• Deep-dive on the Berry Amendment, U.S. military footwear procurement process

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Final Takeaways

• Hull’s story is a classic for entrepreneurs: relentless adaptation, painful failures, hard-won victories, and a refusal to quit.
• OTB’s success was (and is) built on listening deeply to customers—especially “operators”—and never compromising on fit, function, or testing.
• American manufacturing faces systemic hurdles; innovation is required as much in business models and regulation as it is in product design.
• Building and rebuilding a brand—and a life—requires not only skill and luck but trusting your instincts and picking the right team for the fight.

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Closing Quote

"There are hurdles along the way, but if you’ve got a plan—as I tell my kids—you can do anything. Really. Get a plan and follow it."
— Dan Hull (117:57)

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Listen to this episode for tactical lessons on gear, business, and the mindset it takes to keep rebuilding—plus plenty of footwear geekery for the insiders.

Transcript

[Host]

Okay i got the red smoke sun.

[Dan Hull]

Runs north and south west of the smoke west of the smoke okay copy west of the smoke i'm looking at.

[Host]

Danger close now oh wait a minute.

[Dan Hull]

Give it to me i mean it.

[Host]

Cleared hot coffee clear not yeah windows.

[Dan Hull]

Versus mac yeah i i just i'm military is all windows correct it's all about powerpoints that's why you know well.

[Host]

I have a mac sitting here in front of me that i don' think that's on camera and shockingly enough they have the entire microsoft suite yeah i.

[Dan Hull]

Have it just because of working with the military i gotta like yeah pull up like submit this was a powerpoint.

[Host]

You know how's that journey been working with the military well you know it's interesting let's separate military members and then military writ large so well the good.

[Dan Hull]

Thing is ninety probably nine percent of my military dealing is on an individual basis it's not on you're very lucky yeah though interestingly enough i working on a real made in america project that will be you know i have to go through the you know the whole gauntlet of getting a contract and all that which is interesting but to meet the barry compliance well so it's gonna be barry but then you've gotta submit you know pretty much your dna strand to get that a lot of stuff but it is what it is you.

[Host]

Might be able to get away with the individual stuff for a while while you're working with smaller more targeted units to get to the bigger ordering systems that you might start bouncing up against.

[Dan Hull]

Contract so here's what is on kind of a lot of people you probably know but not the general public again why i get into this is military is underserved no one cares about their feet you know so that's when i came in and you know like hey you know you bought a lot of cot stuff but like what if we change some of it to make it so it might work for your needs.

[Host]

You know yeah and cot stands for commercial over the off the shelf or over the shelf yeah i've heard it.

[Dan Hull]

Both ways right so but in any event so every person in the military gets two pair of boots a year.

[Host]

Not all boots are created equal right.

[Dan Hull]

And what a lot of those people do is they throw them in their closet so with that people go out and buy their own boots yep super common practice right so about seventy five percent of military buys their own boots now there's a new thing going forward called the boots act they're trying to is it literally called that it's called.

[Host]

That i mean at least for one of the few times in recent history and memory it actually the bill is.

[Dan Hull]

Actually what it's titled right but it's what it's it's being pushed by a bunch of folks that make are making berry compliant stuff yeah saying that any soldier that has to be wearing a made in america boot or and they're trying to move any base supply store that has to be selling only barry compliant boots well they did a like what was called not a war game scenario a few years back like you know let's do the war game scenario like major war can we supply everybody with very compliant boots and it was a no and when this this boots act there's of some of the major brands have come out and said we don't we don't agree with it because we can't supply everybody well or they.

[Host]

Could and the price point would be.

[Dan Hull]

Just not palatable not yes and no i mean the boots that they're making right now i mean sadly us boot manufacturing isn't bad the spec is bad it's like from nineteen eighty and it hasn't been changed at all so you got some i sent you probably one of everything i don't know if you got it and you saw the i don't know if you saw the eight inch boots i did yeah if you took them out of the box so i mean those are i took them all out of the box yeah okay.

[Host]

Good my son may have absconded with.

[Dan Hull]

A pair if he was your size.

[Host]

He is my size shockingly enough he's i don't know if he's done growing his foot is the same size as me but he's a few inches shorter.

[Dan Hull]

Than me how old twenty oh he's.

[Host]

Getting to the top end of yeah being done i feel like i should be able to look down upon him for the remainder of my life just a little bit even if it's just emotionally no i open to all of them i actually really like the low top stuff the ones that are a little bit more i'd call them like a skater shoe yeah yeah design yeah.

[Dan Hull]

That'S more my jam well we did that because you know as you know a lot of guys west coast guys more so i think some of the guys in the east coast now wearing vans only for doing their stuff well.

[Host]

That'S because some of those east coast guys started on the west coast exactly.

[Dan Hull]

I know that but so that's that's the the cool but so we wanted to make one that worked so that you know so i got a lot of guys in cag a lot of guys in dev group wearing that shoe i mean there was someone forwarded me a reddit post a few weeks ago and it was like kag and a little bird and they were wearing like that and then the six inch like military looking boot yeah so that has a carbon plate in it yeah i.

[Host]

Always chose i mean to me i always figured that my footwear was consumable yeah for the vast majority of my operational deployments i was a place that had a budget that we should probably call robust right so i could get four pair and you know thirty to forty five days and you just you're hawking them out exactly not everybody has.

[Dan Hull]

The ability to do that one time.

[Host]

Use yeah yeah i try to get more than one time out of them but if you wanted to get crazy you probably could push it yeah we.

[Dan Hull]

Should explain berry compliance berry compliant is.

[Host]

The berry pull up the acronym michael isn't it what is it b e.

[Dan Hull]

R b e r r y barry amendment yeah and the barry amendment states that anything that is sold to the military that is textile base must be.

[Host]

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[Dan Hull]

You back to the show made in.

[Host]

Usa keyword in there too entirely yeah.

[Dan Hull]

Exactly and that means from fiber forward they say yeah so if it states.

[Host]

Specifically covered items like clothing textiles food.

[Dan Hull]

And dinnerware i know about the dinnerware because i don't do dinner work yeah.

[Host]

For a product to be compliant all components including raw materials must be sourced domestically from fabric and thread as you said to final assembly right so yeah.

[Dan Hull]

I mean so here's the problem so i grew up literally and learning my shoemaking in new england shoe factories in maine right not a whole lot of that left no i mean like yeah so i'd always wanted to be in footwear i started i was a runner grew up in a little town called holliston massachusetts it was nike's first east coast warehouse so they did all their r d in new hampshire okay and because that's where you know shoemaking was a little place called exeter and because the warehouse had a lot of you know former high schoolers we get all like the castaway leftover shoes custom made for the pros so i grew up wearing custom made nikes you know it was pretty cool that's a nice benefit yeah it was really cool so i mean i got totally into you know footwear that way and then you know would literally tear them apart to see what they're made of and all that and that's how i got into that so but i digress getting back to barry but oh and then i so shoe making so then i worked for a brief stint at nike and then they moved there out of college and they moved their r and d to oregon so half the people said i'm not going so all the new england shoe companies benefited so one of the guys pulled me and went to a thing called hyde athletic industries which at the time was the owner of saucony and spot built if you remember the.

[Host]

Brand spotbuilt i remember saucony but not.

[Dan Hull]

Spotbuilt spotbuilt was a cleated brand like oj simpson wore spot built for football.

[Host]

We'Re talking baton ball sports football yeah.

[Dan Hull]

They also had hyde athletic hyde made skates so like the boston bruins were hyde probably or also not my forte yeah exactly so anyway so they owned saucony they had a factory in maine they threw me up there i learned literally they had a model shop i learned all from italian and portuguese immigrants how to cut patterns how to you know stitch all that went up to the factory in maine literally learned worked every piece of machinery threw me overseas where most shoes were being made in taiwan and korea at the time worked there for a few months then got recruited to adidas where i worked mainly literally traveling probably two months out of wac so i'd go to france first at the development center from there i'd go to germany the headquarters in herzogenauer you know adi as you say and then to asia so every trip was around the world damn so yeah well before and the reason being is before the internet so we would fax things over and like blueprints or design and you'd wait you'd wait for the mold to be opened so and then i got recruited from there into this little company that was just starting called reebok.

[Host]

Which eventually well so was it owned by or a subsidiary of audi at the time or did that completely no.

[Dan Hull]

No no that was in the late eighties just literally when the pump had come out like i started that day.

[Host]

That shoe made that brand for sure.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah yeah so a buddy and one of my closest buddies too we got recruited from from adi or adidas there and kind of helped elevate their product development from it was they had a lot of call older shoe dogs so we were the young bucks and then in the place just took off not because of us but it was just everything they anything they put after the pump you know just went crazy i.

[Host]

Feel like it's time for the pump.

[Dan Hull]

To come back it is it's back well reeboks kind of like in a.

[Host]

Major way nobody talking about reeboks not hurting at all they've made great decisions.

[Dan Hull]

As you know as you know that.

[Host]

Ufc contract really played out well for.

[Dan Hull]

Them yeah no they well they're owned now by oh that's right audi spun them off yeah they forgot about they sold out and they are owned by a place that sadly is nicknamed where brands go to die because these it's a big shop that owns umptuous brands it's a conglomerate they just and then now it's they're being sold at walmart so it's it's not the the reebok i grew up with yeah i want to go back to the berry okay so so yes no no no i'm.

[Host]

Curious because i'm thinking about this and you were saying that the big brands massive war wouldn't be able to outfit in berry compliant stuff there's pros and cons to it for sure i understand why that exists but it does also limit to a degree and there are ways around the barry compliance i mean depending on where you're at you might have discretionary funds where you can buy.

[Dan Hull]

Things but yeah at the secret squirrel level yeah absolutely or sometimes a unit.

[Host]

Level yeah but not always and i wonder i understand why they do it but given the modern shall we say ecosystem of production you know is there an argument to be made that in certain areas maybe not body armor and things that are well you could say that shoes are first line as well too i don't know i just i worry that it would be overly restrictive.

[Dan Hull]

Sometimes as well if if i mean this is a crazy shoe fantasy if i won the big powerball tomorrow one point seven billion yeah let's hope i gotta buy i gotta buy my ticket i lost yesterday but i would actually try i'd work for free for natick or devcom to just to rewrite the specs cause the specs are horrific for barry yeah yeah i mean it's again we can make good boots in america but this was only like a few suppliers you know if i if i go to asia today to develop a new shoe for otb i have a hundred million suppliers around me i have i have catalogs of materials i have manufacturing processes the most up to date equipment yeah i mean everyone's you know developing there right and producing there so you just don't have that the supply chain used to be like that in the us it ain't no more how.

[Host]

Rapidly did that disappear so.

[Dan Hull]

It probably started in the seventies with nike really pushing over there were they the first to head overseas one of the first one of the first and then adidas followed and then the rest of the brands followed and what they were chasing is cheap labor that that's it when it comes down to it the largest portion the one of the biggest cost of the shoe was labor so that's what they did and that's it i mean you've been you've seen you know if i don't have you been to.

[Host]

A us shoe factory no the only shoe factory i've ever been to was the ones we saw in fuzhou yeah.

[Dan Hull]

It always you went to fuzhou okay yeah so that was qing lu i believe is probably the name of the.

[Host]

Factory couldn't tell you for a million.

[Dan Hull]

Bucks on the table yeah that's the name of the factory that was i'm sure they're working with for the crossfit.

[Host]

Stuff it was yes yeah fascinating to see the soup to nuts on how.

[Dan Hull]

That gets created yeah i mean people don't realize that everyone thinks it's all.

[Host]

Automated well it was automated by people but there's just incredibly to the point of rolling the ink stamp on the shoe on both sides right yeah i.

[Dan Hull]

Mean people with a little toothbrush putting the cement on the bottom to stick on the bottom or you know on.

[Host]

The sole of the crossfit shoes they had rebranded and gone with the delta logo which was red them produce just that little red piece that had to be put into the honeycomb of other stuff for the bottom of the shoe.

[Dan Hull]

It'S yeah i think at the time you know we were we counted about a thousand people touched a shoe before.

[Host]

It was made they let me make a few pair yeah i don't think.

[Dan Hull]

They went to market probably not they went into the b or c grade.

[Host]

Bin yeah if not straight into a.

[Dan Hull]

Just a garbage can right or getting chopped up but yeah so that's that's why it's over there it's labor intensive and you know it went from so when korea and taiw labor prices went up it was easy for the taiwanese to go to their motherland because they speak the language and the culture the koreans had a little more difficult time they went to the likes of indonesia they went to thailand cambodia so they went all over the place but the taiwanese really owned china i don't know if you've been to taiwan taiwan is extremely progressive very westernized because americans brits and germans the germans kind of brought that back after the war after world war two so it's you go there and you know it's nice cars just like you know you're in any major metropolitan city though it's chinese writing yeah so but how long did you stay.

[Host]

With reebok when did you leave two.

[Dan Hull]

Thousand i was there for almost thirteen.

[Host]

Years yeah so i missed i got there i never got there never worked for reebok but twenty ten it would be right when i started working with that brand yeah they were owned by audi at that time and i don't remember them ever actually talking about selling i mean not that i had been involved in the conversations but i don't remember even hearing rumblings of them spinning.

[Dan Hull]

Them off yet yeah i mean i personally my opinion only i thought it was pretty pretty crazy just to like let's just double down on crossfit only and drop almost everything else i thought that was kind of a knucklehead move quite frankly from marketing one hundred one.

[Host]

Well i could only i only saw that from the crossfit side of the table i did become good friends with some people on the reebok side of the house i don't know what other options they were even looking at at that time i think that they were in a place and this is me speaking and i'm not actually even repeating anything that i heard them say my my description would maybe be is maybe they felt a little bit rudderless they didn't know which direction to go and i think they still saw crossfit on the ascent which i would say in twenty ten it still was on the ascent so it was i think an ability to attach themselves to something that was growing in the modern vernacular and popular culture and maybe give them just an opportunity to find that direction as they were associated with that brand that's a complete wag also known as wild.

[Dan Hull]

Ass guests well they always typically chased you know so i mean the pump came from copying i mean not copying but nike had one before that and then yeah they did actually did they ever have success with came out i don't know like right before maybe right after because we got wind of it or we said at the time reebok got wind of it somebody brought the pump to reebok it was a you know an outside invention that was brought in the team you know you know the folks here kind of you know customized it for you know their stuff and then i did one of the second vers for the tennis pump michael chang tennis pump worked on that but they typically were always looking what's that brand in oregon doing or others and how can we do something quicker or better so paul fireman the then owner chairman yeah he was one to pull stuff out and say oh we're gonna do this without you know just saying it and then we'd have to just skedaddle and do stuff quickly thus i mean when i was in tennis i just started and overseeing tennis and i guess he wasn't media trained as a director there i was but so you know what to say in case your microphone is thrust in front of you.

[Host]

I enjoy it more when that happens.

[Dan Hull]

And they're not meeting training well he yeah he would personally he would probably be in hr a lot today but i mean not a bad guy but in any event he was at an investor conference soon after like they went public and oh what's next and he goes oh well we're gonna have a tennis pump with a fuzzy tennis ball and we're gonna deliver it at the.

[Host]

French open right please tell me that's.

[Dan Hull]

Like two weeks away yeah pretty much so so literally the design guys you know went like literally get to work we had a meeting immediately and then within a few days we were we were overseas for a couple of months literally working almost like you know fifteen twenty hours a day to get this prototype to at then the atlantis super show which was the shoe show had the final meeting my boss had come in seen it didn't like it so we took blue ballpoint pen and modified the design that went to the super show and they booked five hundred thousand pair in the first day with a shoe with pens on it i forgot.

[Host]

To ask you this we've been referring to the pump shoe do you even know what we're talking about isn't that.

[Dan Hull]

With a little spring on the heel no spring spring this is what i'm.

[Host]

Saying it is time for it to.

[Dan Hull]

Come back it's it's i think it's back in some iteration so he's twenty.

[Host]

Three right he is the core consumer yeah discretionary disposable income and no frontal cortex control right what year did the.

[Dan Hull]

Pump come out eighty nine pull up.

[Host]

Like a nineteen ninety two reebok basketball pump shoe because this is going to be deep in the the wheelhouse you need to see what your generation has been robbed of and then you tell me michael if you would want this.

[Dan Hull]

Back back in action yeah was it at eighty nine or ninety yeah yeah yes so yeah that's that's it every.

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[Host]

I'M fascinated what shoe are you referencing with the spring in the bottom and why would that be consider the pump that'd be called the spring well because.

[Dan Hull]

I figured like when you stepped it would like pump you back up they actually did develop i don't think it went to market but a a pump that encompassed the entire foot so when you stepped on it you were pumping it up i made the idea a.

[Host]

Lot of iterations can you find me a picture of the spring shoe you're talking about i need to see this is this like some crazy running shoe like specifically for track athletes trying there.

[Dan Hull]

Probably are there well there are some you know i mean look i'll have.

[Host]

Him pull it back yeah see it.

[Dan Hull]

Tells you oh there you go no.

[Host]

That is not what we are talking.

[Dan Hull]

About like you know old fashionista stuff.

[Host]

Yeah hit the back button michael go bottom row fourth one from the left i mean come on hit that thing.

[Dan Hull]

So that's awesome that so the one if you go so that was the d brown pump that's the one that he i believe that was that model or it might have been the one in the far right when he went up and won the dunk contest at the nba you know covering his eyes yeah that was would you rock that thing yeah no you don't think well.

[Host]

You don't think that's retro for what's.

[Dan Hull]

Going on i mean it's definitely retro i just don't i don't know just.

[Host]

I don't so the orange button obviously it pumps air into your shock yeah.

[Dan Hull]

There was tighter yeah there was a little there was a latex ball underneath it like you know again blood pressure.

[Host]

Pump and then the little button to the right of it obviously would allow you to release the earth fascinating i cannot believe that he has no idea this is a core memory for me in my child of course but i.

[Dan Hull]

Mean it's so it was really one of the first interactive shoes that you got to customize your shoe yeah so yeah aware of it for sure yeah you but i mean so it was like you know it was like oh how how much can you pump it.

[Host]

Up you know so so okay on the business side they released this did they really have any idea how big it was going to be no not.

[Dan Hull]

At all it just exploded so when.

[Host]

It does that and you're at reebok and it's exploding like that how do you try to put a harness on that tiger and catch it are you just full speed ahead make as many.

[Dan Hull]

As you can pretty much so i mean and then it went like how do we you know expand upon it and do other models like you see up there and and what do we do next i mean listen in the tennis pump that i had worked on.

[Host]

Because i feel like they probably sold through their initial inventory oh oh yeah.

[Dan Hull]

It was how quickly can we make it so one of the cause then.

[Host]

That'S the problem like you have we have a we have a hit on our hands oh by the way we didn't forecast for this so we're out people want to buy this we don't have anything to take their money well.

[Dan Hull]

So what happened is there was a in kind of like western mass there was the pump manufacturer so we insisted at the time to take the pumps from the us close to us in mass and because we wanted to make sure that they were all you know checked beforehand you're talking about the mechanism of the inside the internal bladder okay the internal bladder and so those were and then you know then it was full speed how do you get them to work you know three shifts and how do you get them to deliver this you know the supply chain and you know they and they were how.

[Host]

Awesome was the holiday party that year.

[Dan Hull]

Oh oh for the four first five years i was there i mean there was great you know bonuses there was great you know profit sharing it was like money in the bank yeah it was good at the time and then you know you know it was again chasing and they kind of started to lose their way and i was there the last three years i was there was like a layoff every october it was like we had to pump up the stock so what can we you know we have to lay people off so i sadly had to two years going like make the list and then the third year i was on the.

[Host]

List so what was the focus of reebok at that time and again where it ended up being and again this is an outside perspective they had they pursued i would say relatively aggressively but probably normally a business partnership that they wanted with crossfit it seemed as if they had some relationships and ambassadorships with athletes and then interestingly entertainers so so.

[Dan Hull]

At the time you know it was changing from athletes to entertainers i think they had done a shoe maybe with fifty cent they'd done something with shawn carter beyonce's husband and jay z and others so that when they realized that you know music was really where it's at i'm look at some of the other i comically talk about my three weeks spent with kanye west really yes while at reebok no so this is.

[Host]

After reebok i was gonna say didn't he sign with audi well yeah so i don't know if that deal i'm.

[Dan Hull]

Fast forwarding a little bit so before so it's in between otb one point zero and otb two point zero but.

[Host]

Before you continue you personally spent three weeks with him yeah is he as i'm trying to use a technical term here insane as he appears to be.

[Dan Hull]

On social media so when he's pretty much one on one i'd say ninety percent he's okay but he wavers and he had some kind of crazy so a buddy of mine who was one of the the guy that designed some of these shoes the pump fury yeah he's a kind of a major guy stephen smith asked me out he said hey connie wants to build a factory in the us i said well i'll come out and talk with him you know would he come out i said yeah so it turned out like three weeks and i mean he picked me up at breakfast with him with kanye oh yeah but what do you guys.

[Host]

Chat about over breakfast most of the.

[Dan Hull]

Time he was in the phone with people but how many phones did he have i think think one at the time but and then he at the time he was going through his gospel phase so he had built a gospel chapel in the office okay and he had what he would call sunday services but not on just sundays on sundays okay he would it was like he would he brought in this incredible gospel choir and had this incredible you know so he one day goes hey i'd like you to be my guest at sunday service i'm like i said great i said hey would you mind if i bring my daughter and he's like how old is she i said well she's the gm of the ucla radio station and she would i'd be dad of the year oh yeah no problem so she you know obviously went to that but and then who comes in and sits with me or like literally right behind me all these seats were the kardashians so it was just like head exploding endeavor so did they bring.

[Host]

All their video cameras with them or did they just show up as people.

[Dan Hull]

There were a lot of people there with cameras i don't know how you.

[Host]

Can live any semblance of even a remotely real life if you are either trying to document it or and i know nothing about their show what i do know about reality tv is that the term reality should be usefully based and associated with it so there's a lot of artificial fill in the blank i don't understand large sums of money anyway though i don't have access to them and maybe my thoughts would change if i did i don't think it would i don't know if there's any sum of money that would make me want to do that.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah it was weird and then at the he also called us in you know for for a meeting at the kardashian house where he was living at the time and you know getting in there was pretty pretty interesting gated community and you know but he had he had security that i think you would probably chuckle at i mean i i certainly don't have your skills but know enough from being around guys like you and it was kind of like mall cop one hundred.

[Host]

One they often go for just the largest person that they think they can.

[Dan Hull]

Find this looked like i should yeah they weren't very large okay they just didn't seem you know probably the most robust group of maybe they were trying to fool you perhaps it could have been i i i doubt it but in any events yeah so went into their place and saw like where they filmed you know the kardashians and it was just still like head head exploding like what am i doing here you.

[Host]

Know well how do you manage a guy like that in that ten time period where he's a little bit off.

[Dan Hull]

The res well i guess yeah he was starting there were you know yeah i think soon after he started to go really downhill i mean he obviously needed meds and i don' on them.

[Host]

And i'm not a doctor i would say he probably did and perhaps very deep deep level of assistance from psychiatrists.

[Dan Hull]

Psych something yeah yeah yeah i mean he needed some support when he's when he's on he was a decent a nice person respectful person to meetings though i hadn't been for some meetings i heard that he was off the rails but with me he was always respectful because i was in a sense selling my services of you know you know building a factory or making a shoe better or whatever so but yeah it was short lived but i still come.

[Host]

To an end.

[Dan Hull]

I wasn't getting paid.

[Host]

That'S a good reason for it to come to an end yeah did you ever get paid no still waiting for the check have you tried sending an.

[Dan Hull]

Invoice i sent him a few times.

[Host]

I again there's people that have extremely high net worth but a lot of that is tied up in assets they're not necessarily very liquid well which is a problem that can be solved but to me that is not an incredibly.

[Dan Hull]

Uncommon story he wasn't one signing the check it was like you know i mean he was it was an odd i think adi at the time kind of owned the group or he was a part of it was just it was a strange it was a separate group that you know was doing the payment and i understand that accounter accounting group was changing and forensic it was.

[Host]

Just it was that's the classic invoicing delay tactic hey we're we're changing systems.

[Dan Hull]

It'S going to be a little bit i think yeah well i think one one group got in there and said whoa and i don't think we want to be a part of this another group got in there and said whoa i don't know if i want so it was one of those things but you know what honestly i have better stories you know i mean pretty pretty yeah my kids were like wow i was i was a kind of a fan for them for a while i still am a fan of my kid my kids are a fan of mine.

[Host]

So adi eventually unwound that relationship right.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah they did because of some of the he was he went what we.

[Host]

Like to call a little high and right he did yeah not politically just for a round flying off into orbit and maybe just going yeah yeah yeah.

[Dan Hull]

I mean it was a lot i mean they were he was he was producing a billion dollars worth of stuff with his name on it or used the use that's kind of hurt for.

[Host]

A brand even of that size yeah.

[Dan Hull]

It did it hurt them a lot yeah you know bottom line how does.

[Host]

That work on the business side do they own the ip of anything he would have created with them up until.

[Dan Hull]

That break so i don't know the exact things i guess he still gets a piece of it but they didn't want to still sell it because it still was associated with what he was.

[Host]

Saying so if they wanted to do you think they have the right to.

[Dan Hull]

Produce it again though i think they have a right to the designs they could technically take those designs without depends on like half the shoes they could take and remake without the yeezy brand yeah but then there are there are folks out there that still worship him yeah that you know want that and it would probably raise holy hell man.

[Host]

Yeah yeah it's don't know the guy at all have no touch points never met him only see and you know what people put up on social media is i would like to believe selective and intentional you throw mental illness into that for him it's almost it's almost as if watching a train wreck of a mental health crisis happening live and they're broadcasting it it just becomes very i know a lot of people derive immense entertainment out of that i end.

[Dan Hull]

Up just feeling really bad yeah yeah well so i i brought a another buddy in on the program for for one day with my other buddy stephen and who were kind of like three peas in a pod worked together at adi early on and then we went both went we all wanted to reebok together but he was there one day and you know pretty much said i've seen enough nope thank you he just retired too from vans he was the senior veep of vans so he said yeah i think i'm okay yeah talk.

[Host]

To me about the creation of otb i'm fascinated by you know i own a i'm a fifty owner in the coffee shop it's the only brick and mortar thing i've ever done right never tried to create a soft goods you know t shirt stuff but i'm not creating the blank the guy locally here does all the artwork silk you know what i mean michael thankfully now stuffs all the poly mailers and for anybody who has complaints about the velocity that it gets to you or the packaging it's in please email michael directly but i i guess i'm an entrepreneur i don't like necessarily that word creating something out of thin air you know the coffee shop is an extension of an existing brand you know there was the the sitting with architects and ideating and all that stuff but i'm not going to call it something that didn't exist before otb a little bit different and i know he went on one hell of a journey and i'm fascinated i'm.

[Dan Hull]

Fascinated by the come and gone yeah the entrepreneurial journey so i you know still to this day get you know jacked up by making shoes i love producing footwear and but so i grew up my whole career making it for pro athletes you know whether it be you know tennis pros or football players basketball players you know olympic fencers pole vaulters all unique needs and after getting you know laid off at reebok and i was at a semi executive status it ain't easy to find jobs so i don't say bounced around but you know i was in a lot of places that you know came and go after a year year and a half and you know just like and getting back to my second grade report card you know does not play well with others i i had a low tolerance for.

[Host]

Buffoons how would that express itself.

[Dan Hull]

Well i know i i wouldn't be calling people buffoons but i just like i you know i'm i'm done so to speak you know so i took some interesting jobs i was vp of donna karen what's that dkny in new york city a fashion brand first off.

[Host]

Let me just tell you any fashion term that you use is going to go instantaneously over my head i don't.

[Dan Hull]

Know if you've ever seen the movie and i recommend it because you understand what i live through a double wears.

[Host]

Prada i am aware that that movie exists i've never seen it right so you're saying watch it then i'll have a deeper understanding of what you lived.

[Dan Hull]

Through it was exactly i mean literally so day one i get there and it was a new york auto show.

[Host]

This is when you're the dkny was.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah when i was vice president of footwear for donna karan and it was you know talking about you know so i had been out of work for almost six months after reebok you know i had a i had a year plus severance i had a good severance but you're still sweating that you want to get a salary to be you know feed your kids so you know two young kids at the time and so i took the job wasn't that excited about it not being a fashion guy you know you know i wouldn't i never wore anything designer but so day one get in there and it was a new york auto show and bmw wanted to do a collaboration with them so i mean i think adi was doing something with at mercedes right so anyway they came to donna karen and said hey let's do a collab so as the ceo of bmw myself and the president of donna karan so we go to the meeting day one i literally just met this woman because i all my interviews were i think over the phone anyway and then had the meeting and then after the meeting i said well from a manufacturing perspective we can do this way and then i said you know from a fashion perspective and she's like don't talk to me about fashion she gave you the wavy finger i'll let you know when you can talk about fashion and you know the thought bubble wasn't good so i knew right then and there so you know how sassy was the finger wave it was pretty sassy nice like eight out of ten yeah i mean again devil wears prada it's just i've.

[Host]

Asked an almost rhetorical question here have you ever seen it michael no but.

[Dan Hull]

You haven't either so you can't climb.

[Host]

I haven't so now i'm thinking i think the bucket of popcorn sitting between.

[Dan Hull]

You and i that's a good idea.

[Host]

Javi can come obviously devil wears prada on the sofa at the time i.

[Dan Hull]

Think they just came out with a second or it's a bullet toilet let's.

[Host]

Not get ahead of ourselves michael and i have to first get off the first one yeah michael i think we need to do this should we do a reacts video oh we should actually that would be awesome for clarity the amount of knowledge that michael and i have have in fashion is non existent.

[Dan Hull]

Right we're looking at this is black tie for i mean i was the same way i i didn't really i mean so i i i suggested that we part ways soon after anyway so and we in i i had reebok taught me well the hr department taught me well so i had a lot of good notes that i had taken and just went and said i think we should separate and here's why and then they said oh the next day like when do you want to leave.

[Host]

I think they call that leverage yeah.

[Dan Hull]

I had a lot of leverage yeah a lot of leverage well depending on.

[Host]

The time period and the era and where you're working there are some magic words that can net a result they're.

[Dan Hull]

Very favorable well so i mean talk about you know stars aligning good or bad so i moved my i didn't sell and i lived in a little coastal town thankfully thank god we didn't sell our home and we did pick up move to brooklyn it was really so finally started left i left september sixth two thousand one five days before the big event where was it in.

[Host]

Proximity to the trade towers.

[Dan Hull]

So they were in down they were like right in midtown okay okay so they were north of it yeah right right in midtown so but still wouldn't have been the place to be no but my kids were like nursery school and kindergarten right or first grade and nursery school but we didn't have to explain it to them now i was out for a bike ride that day came home and was listening to the radio i'm like oh my turned it on but i guess talking to neighbors from the building that we'd lived in the brownstone i guess the fifty sixth floor of the bond traders blew over across the route right into our front doorstep up.

[Host]

Until that point had you interfaced with working with or selling into military communities.

[Dan Hull]

No so fast forward after the dkny thing i was working with sperry topsider.

[Host]

I feel like that's an incredibly expensive.

[Dan Hull]

Yachting shoe well it was the that was high tech the leather boating shoe was high tech michael i need to.

[Host]

See one of these a sperry topsider.

[Dan Hull]

A sperry topsider that was the boating shoe it doesn't have tassels it can why just because so so here's here's how it started so i was working.

[Host]

There it just sounds like a pretentious.

[Dan Hull]

Brand well it's your classic new england boat shoe you know i got a hand sewn boat shoe which is like really in new england there were plenty of places up like dexter shoe which is no longer bass but would people.

[Host]

Judge you in this community if you weren't wearing these and then if you were they would judge you on the.

[Dan Hull]

Skew no but i mean i'm sure you've seen this shoe i have as.

[Host]

Soon as you pulled it up i actually thought this is way less pretentious than i thought i thought we were going to look for some massive tasseling.

[Dan Hull]

No they have versions with it but i mean that's like the classic boat shoe right so but when i got there they also have a kind of an athletic line but when i got there i was hired as director of a product it kind of i was between product and marketing like but they said hey the navy seals are wearing one of our shoes and i said has anyone found out why well i.

[Host]

Would also i'm sure you got to the bottom of this i've heard a lot of statements that begin with that navy seals are using right this is the official watch of the army fill.

[Dan Hull]

In the blank exactly so but i said has anyone spoken to them and why and they said well i have a business card of a guy and i got it you know it was chief tim someone and i because of traffic i was really south of boston i got in early military starts early i called the number he picked up he said yeah why don't you come in so a week later i flew into little creek got the password for the base at the time let me in and got massively lost well before really google maps and got in there and had an incredible meeting which i'm sure you know and where it is and you know was escorted to pee i couldn't go anywhere without anybody but it really it was a great great meeting and left sperry well i said hey you know why don't we you know work with these guys and make stuff and they go that's kind of a stupid idea i'm like well why.

[Host]

Were they wearing a spanish outsider so.

[Dan Hull]

Again they had an athletic line i mean so they used it it was during the and this is where i started to learn about the barcelona olympics okay and there was a team you know in the day on a yacht looking you know from your old group looking like a studio assignment right and then at night they were pass the.

[Host]

Olive oil or whatever the hell you.

[Dan Hull]

Put on yourself to tan yeah exactly and at night they were you know checking bottoms for for mines or whatnot.

[Host]

Or you know i think at night they were probably getting hammered and saying that they were doing that but right go with what go with whatever works.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah they were there you know there was a team at every olympics as you know so and i i come.

[Host]

To travel around quietly often a lot of military units do you'd be surprised the peripheral units that travel the world.

[Dan Hull]

Well i've i've i have you know kind of fast forward i've worked a lot with some of these secret squirrels i've actually had i've gotten clearances to do some pretty literally do some pretty wild stuff too that's awesome yeah so it's been really cool ride so anyway so after the sperry thing i made the prototypes that they wanted that you know sperry didn't want and then we'd get back to the skunk works at natick devcom where they and they said hey would you work with them and develop some footwear so i did and.

[Host]

It that was the genesis of otb.

[Dan Hull]

That was the genesis of otb so they got you know the stuff i made they liked you know was like shoes that had drainage that you know get dried quickly and like little stuff.

[Host]

That an otb military term at least stands for over the beach over the beach yeah it's when i was first exposed to was late nineties and god these were not the most fun blocks of training i'm gonna be honest with you cause it was usually paired with oth right which stands for over the horizon and just imagine the small zodiac with a fifty five horsepower engine and you're in coronado and they just say point it at that setting sun right and drive until the curvature of the earth which by the way the earth is curved for any of you out there still on the fence on that one and when you can't see the shore anymore we'll go like five more miles turn around and just do the exact same thing you'll go over the horizon and return when you get back though we're going to do a combat swimmer or a surface swimming evolution because combat swimmer means underwater surface swimming evolution where you have to survey then come across the beach hence the over the beach aspect oth paired with otb not my most favorite training block yeah well.

[Dan Hull]

That'S where i started making shoes for that i don't know if you remember the original abyss you might have worn shoes that had holes in the bottom.

[Host]

First pair of boots or shoes that i ever wore for that was a set of jungle boots legit vietnam not great for swimming or actually ankle supports.

[Dan Hull]

Running on the beach you could stack a set of quarters in your blister.

[Host]

Probably that end i believe they were designed to remove any cushioning material in your spine and knees right yeah and it i mean it basically felt like this tapping on my laptop in front.

[Dan Hull]

There are still units that buy that today i'm shocked i tell you what.

[Host]

As far as a dress boot goes if you're going to have like a garrison set of camis and you want to polish something up to like shine.

[Dan Hull]

They'Re the best ever but very few people in the us are wearing a.

[Host]

Black boot i mean that doesn't make any sense given we spent twenty years in the desert oh wait yeah that makes a ton of sense right i.

[Dan Hull]

Mean the the spec is a coyote color brown yeah so but no so so we made original their first shoe called the abyss that had holes in.

[Host]

The bottom and you mean bottom not.

[Dan Hull]

The sides like yeah yeah yeah so we had mesh on the bottom so you wouldn't no junk would go in there but water would drain out immediately.

[Host]

So traditionally it would be drain holes in the arches it seemed like the.

[Dan Hull]

Side of the arch so another thing that we did especially on if you looked at the eight inch boots that i sent you called the carbon and the flex you know we have strategically placed round holes with mesh just above the flex groove on top it's like if you look at like the jungle boot it had two like metal eyelets with some of them with the screen mesh just on the side about an inch above the midsole yeah it was.

[Host]

On the inboard side as well yeah.

[Dan Hull]

Right but it water doesn't get that i mean you want it in the in the flex area where you know like the lowest point duh no if.

[Host]

You got the jungle boot wet you left it it would be forty eight hours later you're still wet oh hell.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah right so that's again you know listening you know working with you know a fencer or pole vaulter you know making like listen to like little things like oh we can put special messages that dry quick or this leather so we use all waterproof leathers in our product even though the shoes aren't waterproof because in like for instance best ranger where we had probably nine out of ten guys wearing our stuff they would say like my feet are dry in thirty minutes just their heat coming out sopping wet but because it's because the.

[Host]

Material the boot is made with is not absorbing the water exactly yeah so.

[Dan Hull]

Little things like that we don't make as much but we make a better product you know and all smooth meshes and all that but yeah so we did that i mean you were on for like the captain phillips mission i.

[Host]

Was still in the military at that time nowhere associated with that command okay.

[Dan Hull]

All right because that's like that whole mission they wore our stuff amongst other stuff and other places but but yeah so it grew but then we did land stuff which that's when i met you and you got back into the fight and you wore a bunch some stuff i sent you and then so it was backed by the bank of dan it wasn't that big and so looking for money there was a meeting we were meeting with all kinds of vc's and i got a call from a guy a seal and he said hey i'm meeting with new balance they told us they want to make our shoes and i said no otb makes our shoes and they said who are they and i said well i'm looking for money and they said well hey come to the meeting i'm like i'd love to meet with them but anyway i went to the meeting with them and they said you know who are you i said well i said and they're like looking at me like who is this guy why is he here but you know the people with me they knew how to shoot straight they didn't really know much about shoes so i basically spoke for them and i in the meeting to the new balance people i said you know i'd like to meet with your chairman jim davis and they're like oh pay no attention to the man behind the green curtain you know you're never going to meet with him he's too busy i'm saying oh thanks so we leave hit the elevator and opened up it was jim davis alone and i've been pitching left and right so i went right in you know mister davis dan hulls i'm here with navy seal here and we're going i have a company you're telling.

[Host]

Me you randomly ran into the chairman.

[Dan Hull]

In the elevator yes after saying i will never meet with him that's what.

[Host]

I'M talking about literally what you're saying is have your elevator pitch ready because you literally got elevator pitch six floors.

[Dan Hull]

I gave him the elevator pitch twenty seconds at the bottom got out he said i'll take your meeting tomorrow.

[Host]

Man.

[Dan Hull]

True story and then you have some interesting timing so the guy i was with i'll tell you his name after you might know him he said you know i'm trained to kill people and i've never seen anyone attack anyone so fast so anyway so next day met with him and with my business partner i called my business partner who was the chairman of saucony before and he goes no way no fucking way i've been trying to get in touch with him you wouldn't even return my call so we go in we have the meeting he had the product and he goes we could never make this he goes who backed this i said it was the bank of dan and he goes you have fucking balls he goes i'm putting you with my mergers team tomorrow so four months later they bought.

[Host]

Us so did you have any hesitation.

[Dan Hull]

In that no because i was down in my last as my then wife said you know she would commonly play aerosmiths living on the edge because it was you know i literally bet the farm like call it shark tank i you know four hundred one k went into otb and it was getting down.

[Host]

There so how did that relation so did they buy all of otb did they buy controlling interest in it one.

[Dan Hull]

Hundred percent they bought the whole thing.

[Host]

Is that what you wanted at the.

[Dan Hull]

Time it's kind of like what i had to i mean it saved my house it saved my finances yeah but.

[Host]

Then walk me through the continued entrepreneurial.

[Dan Hull]

Journey so the tough part is we got in there thinking that we had all these assets at our disposal which we had none we thought we did so we wanted to make barrier compliant boots made in america right and they had factories and the agreement we had is that after three years we would get an earn out we'd get x percent of sales sign us a check.

[Host]

Here you go we when you say that you mean my partner yeah okay.

[Dan Hull]

So that was a big so we we had this incredible plan that we can get it to one hundred million and you know we're going to get this great money blah blah blah so we get in there and say well here's our and he goes oh yeah we can get those in we can do production in three years we're like what and here i am used to asian production where you know like from years at reebok you know like when the chairman says oh here's an idea and you know three months later we're delivering right i'm being told three years to get a shoe delivered do you.

[Host]

Think they intentionally pushed it to that three year cycle knowing that payout or that that was the actual cycle of.

[Dan Hull]

What it would take no so i mean new balance is a strong company today but then they had a bunch of feeder brands small brands that they did and it was classic for the chairman at the time to like you know buy them without a lot of talk with others so when it came time board meeting we went to the board meeting and he comes in and goes guys just make this happen and walked out so it wasn't like there was a debate he just whatever the chairman said so they just like okay you know rubber stamped it and so we're like kind of high fiving on the table but you know so from that day on it was never really we weren't really accepted well it wasn't bad but so we were like in the corner we weren't even on their servers so to speak so it was just like at one point one of the guys in charge of ops was a former marine i'm like dude you gotta get us some help you know like you gotta you know so finally he kinda raised some holy hell but.

[Host]

But how does your brand survive if you have a military client or clients plural that wants your product and your delivery window is thirty six months that's that's not going to be acceptable to.

[Dan Hull]

Them well exactly but see a lot of times it didn't so we also had we had a lot of international business because every time we started making stuff for debgru and every time they trained all over the world we would get a phone call we always knew where they're trained because it was like oh what do you wear it is.

[Host]

Actually part of the charter of that particular command development group is if you look at the doctrine and i've never actually looked at the three ring binder that says it specifically but my understanding is a portion of that is development right refinement and selection of everything from equipment to tactics techniques and procedures development of sops that's actually how it is supposed to work yeah it's tough that's not really good opsec if you could follow their training calendar throughout the world because the people they were training with are calling you great business model right come on gents let's work well no.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah it isn't good opsec but i mean it's just you know because i work with so many of the you know secret squirrel groups i know you know kind of where guys are going i called like we have something in x day can you we need this for that so but in any event yeah so that's how we you know fifty percent of our business was overseas but so when we had some international distributors that you know got contracts again because it was respected because you know you know dev groups using it must be the best so we had all the you know whether it be france ksk you know all this stuff so they couldn't deliver and then they were getting becoming persona non grata because you know they couldn't deliver and their asses were in a sling so it wasn't cool and then i was just i had some spidey sense i said you know to my partner mike at the time like this doesn't seem like it's i don't feel it he goes nah but you know we have we have sixty thousand pair on the water right now no way i said nah they're going to to they're going to cut this and then lo and behold like a month later they cut it we.

[Host]

Didn'T get our oh the they cut.

[Dan Hull]

The company new balance cut cut cut.

[Host]

Otb what does that mean do they basically say we're done with this tranche of our business we're shutting it down.

[Dan Hull]

We'Re shutting it down and you don't get your money back that you put into it yeah so i put in seven figures yeah and i mean beyond.

[Host]

That it seems like a lot of passion a lot of time huge huge.

[Dan Hull]

Sweat equity relationships the thing that really killed me is you know i had garnered phenomenal relationships with a lot of guys a lot of units worldwide you know i mean to this day so that's what kind of killed me never mind the money thing wasn't a good thing didn't really help for personal relationships either so that eventually ended and that helped it yeah but you know not to sound too scoundrel for the better so it oftentimes is yes yeah so in any event yeah not not not fun at the time but anyway so so with that i went back in the industry i i moved overseas director of engineering for vf like which owned vans timberland the north face i was there for a couple years but i kept getting asked for stuff you know hey i need a you know there's no more otb i need water shoes so i designed a shoe everyone starts wearing chucks so you probably have seen the shoe altama maritime assault shoe i.

[Host]

Never knew the names of the stuff.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah or if you if you michael pull up altama maritime assault altam is one word al tama maritime assault so i recognize that shoe i designed that shoe and i did a shark tank deal with altamma i said hey trust me the guys you know all the water guys wear chuck taylors this is a super chuck taylor and i don't get it and i said just put it out at shot show just i did all colors of you know coyote black multicam and so you just straight.

[Host]

Built protos for shot show oh well.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah it was it was well i also tested some and before one of the things again i won't put anything out that i haven't been tested or guys haven't tested for him so i knew it worked it was you know we had a little drain thing on the side click on one of those.

[Host]

Michael so the image is bigger like the green one fifth over upper row yeah that's not green you're colorblind good.

[Dan Hull]

Enough though yeah it is a canal so see on the on the flex area there's like a mesh that water comes out right on both inside and outside we have a board in there anyway number one shoe a chacho for him and i did a licensing deal a little shark tanky thing so i get a little piece of all that shoe awesome so so that was you know kind of good but then fast forward i did some consulting and then i brought the otb business model to deckers the deckers corporation which is the parent of hoka and ugg i'm familiar.

[Host]

With ugg pull up hoka michael i.

[Dan Hull]

Feel like i've seen you know hoka hoka is like one of the fastest growing running shoe brands right now oh.

[Host]

Yeah pull it up michael i bet you i'm gonna recognize this you know.

[Dan Hull]

Hoka running shoes i mean yeah i mean oh yeah yeah you know hoka.

[Host]

That'S an incredibly recognizable cushion on the.

[Dan Hull]

Bottom right so they so they everyone was going minimal like you know barefoot.

[Host]

Last specifically the crossfit world zero drop.

[Dan Hull]

Barefoot last right right which i'm i'm depending on maybe for lifting but i'm i'm a i'm a cushion guy well.

[Host]

They'Ll tell you i mean again schools of thought and i remember specifically listening to a lot of the running coaches in the crossfit ecosystem ecosystem right you're not supposed to heel strike and they would use children running as the example the running form of kids they're up on their and again i'm not an.

[Dan Hull]

Expert on any of this but i.

[Host]

Can tell you where came from you.

[Dan Hull]

Know you know there's there's a big book that came out born to run that talked about running like cro magna man basically i remember like you know i literally i ate and slept and drank running you know grew up almost on the marathon course it was part of my history growing up boston marathon that is and it was a big part of my upbringing ate slept and drank running my coach i remember always said it was he was a decent coach don't mimic anything or anybody just run your like how you run you know which i kind of you know so if you have to change your gait you're thinking too much that's my opinion right but so these guys that started so the guy that founded hoka great story a french guy jean luc diard he he was the ceo of salomon left and started this when everyone was going minimal he went maximal and he brought it to deckers former reebok guys with his chairman at the time a former runner they bought it for eight million dollars really it is today a two billion dollar brand we call that a good roi pretty damn good they're killing it and you know why because it's like again give the customer what they want you know people want a comfortable cushioned shoe and most americans are you know kind of corn fed you know yeah so i got some.

[Host]

Miles in a solomon i'll tell you that much yeah that was the disposable.

[Dan Hull]

Shoes yeah right speed cross right exactly so so anyway i went there we they had a a skunk works group with this guy jean luc dard and he got it because being at solomon he knew that you know the forces group that a lot of guys were today so we put it together but the company was like it's in their corporate charter no weapons in photos or anything so some people got kind of hot and bothered they were doing military stuff kind of like you know patagonia as you know made a lot of stuff in the inside people didn't like that yeah so they they shut it down but luckily a good friend whose son was in the ranger regiment and we developed developed the three major boots the eight inch boots and then the water boot the abyss water boot there and he said i'm the only one that's been in a military boot shop my son's a in the seventy fifth ranger regiment he goes this is like the best shoe out there he goes give it give it to dan let's give it to him so they basically said there's no really true ip we do have a carbon plate in one of the shoes and we took it tweaked a few things and you know brought it out as otb so we did and we just launched a year.

[Host]

Ago how did you get the name back from new balance so or the not more than the name did you.

[Dan Hull]

Buy the company back so here's a great story too right place right time so the it was a little bit political also why it shut down the guy that shut it down really didn't even confer with many people at new balance so the ceo of new balance not the chairman who i met in the elevator the ceo who i'd helped he was a cyclist like i was too and helped garnish the us top pro team to sponsor i knew the guys that ruined the tour de france so anyway we became friendly so i called him up a few years later i said i said hey you're not using the name anymore even though you own it and he goes let me check with legal next day he calls me back and he says we never re up the trademark if you go to the trademark us trademark you know uspto yeah yeah go there and for two hundred fifty bucks register it back.

[Host]

It'S yours i don't know if legal would have appreciated him making that call.

[Dan Hull]

Well he was anyway i did that and then then he worked further he you know put a call into legal and i said said can i have the you know the otb dot com otb boots dot com back and they said they said yeah as long as you never like put a new balance low on dude i'm not gonna do anything with you yeah i don't think.

[Host]

The taste is still in the mouth so yeah we're not going to be throwing new balance up on the old.

[Dan Hull]

Landing page yeah yeah so so that's how i got it back two hundred fifty bucks that's wild yeah right place.

[Host]

Right time are you back to financing this with the bank of dan no okay so bank of dan round too.

[Dan Hull]

So here's i mean kind of a interesting thing so i had like two other partners that we started it with and we had we got investors some really decent investors and but a year ago just before we were going to launch there was some big head knocking between the three founders and i brought my former partner back who did not get along with another gentleman and so we said let's you know let's stop being doing business with you and we did and that caused lawsuits and a lot of legal wrangling so we were in you know some disputes last summer when we had a million dollars worth of boots right to float across and my original partner was like he wanted to shut it down despite him and i'm like we got a million bucks i'm not going to like screw the factory out of a million bucks i said one i know the factory personally i've worked with him for forty years or i know everyone i said no and so he's like i'm done too i said well great well then i'm going to run with this we actually took gave a lot of the investors their money back and when i said i'm going forward they gave me the money back got some more money and then with this the coo my coo out of washington state i said you and me now let's do it and we are on fire we have a great chief marketing officer a great sales guy we're going to do close to ten million dollars this year that's awesome yeah one year yeah one year i mean we're on fire what would you.

[Host]

Sometimes the answer to this question is probably nothing because you're here today because of the experiences that you went through but what did you learn if you had a notebook along the way and you were taking notes of things you could have avoided and you were going to pass that to yourself before you went down this pipeline of involving new balance what would be in that so.

[Dan Hull]

It'S interesting i'd have to say for me it's like go with your gut go spidey sense and i mean for the new balancing i had to do it because literally so here's another interesting fact the day i signed with new balance like literally or i had the purchase and sale agreement like buying a home you got a pns the bank came knocking on the door to take the house and i said here's the here let me make a copy of this here's a purchase sale and they said said congratulations the house is not is yours now yeah so i mean it was down the wire there so that so i had to sell i didn't want to would you have taken.

[Host]

Potentially money earlier to avoid getting to.

[Dan Hull]

That place yeah so if i if i could do it again i would have had investors okay that and it just that at the time probably didn't know enough you know again it's the.

[Host]

You know no that's why this you're now you're writing this notebook now that you're going to give to your fifteen you know fifteen year ago self right.

[Dan Hull]

Exactly and also and you can attest to having working your your whether it be missions or whether it be your current business or having the right team yeah you know like good if you have great guys with you you'll you'll succeed so spidey sense of like some of the former partners the headbutting you know even though they're gone i'm quite happy now because you get through all the legal mess yeah yeah it wasn't easy but we did it doesn't ever.

[Host]

Seem to be easy fun or cheap.

[Dan Hull]

No it wasn't cheap it was not cheap at all but in the end the company was we decided i said i'm not throwing all this away you know so plus i had investors i mean i didn't want to have lost their money money so in any event we're killing it i mean because again because the team is just on fire my coo in washington is a whiz at juggling chainsaws i mean he knows finance operations he's amazing i mean he really holds a lot of the glue together i mean i'm product geek i'm the guy doing most of development not all of it some of the design i have technical designers that do some of the hard stuff stuff my sales guy marketing guy is great we put a lot of money into marketing what's.

[Host]

Been the most effective thing you found as a tool for marketing the money that you're putting in what's been your best roi on money spent so we.

[Dan Hull]

Put a good amount into instagram just baked in ads yeah but here's the.

[Host]

Greatest thing i've never seen one they're.

[Dan Hull]

Not serving you well well you're not around a military base thank god because.

[Host]

Guess what actually that's not true great falls is right over there air force they use a lot of water boots.

[Dan Hull]

We know where your customers where the customers sleep pretty much right so what.

[Host]

You'Re saying you're taking a scientific and.

[Dan Hull]

Intelligence approach yeah so we can geotarget we can geotarget in fact i have guys why would you not actually right and it's like it ain't rocket science when you think about it but you just target them so if if you went to fort benning today i'd have to say we own it so like i had some targets you know the brand garment they make us an eight inch boot can't say i do yeah so so well it's it's so it's an italian brand interestingly enough there's a former swick that started kind of started he went to a bunch of outdoor brands like he went to i think jerry he went to garmont and said here could you make a military boot out of like your italian heritage so they did sold it's it kills it they do nothing it's been the same for like ten years and i said i know i can make a better boot my other target was solomon i want them off i mean you know also i i always tell everyone like you know they're chinese owned and guys.

[Host]

That wasn't always the case though right.

[Dan Hull]

It wasn't when did that switch over about five five years ago about they.

[Host]

Were real quiet about that oh of.

[Dan Hull]

Course especially on the military side i.

[Host]

Mean every well i can't say every that's an inaccurate statement many of the guys i worked with with we're talking multiple pair of salomons training shoe overseas deployment shoe all that stuff it was.

[Dan Hull]

The shoe it was the shoe it still is it's really tailing off we own the water i mean it's a unique you saw the new abyss water shoe looks like a climbing shoe today's.

[Host]

Episode is brought to you by element spelled lmnt feel free to say lmnt if you want to but also you could say just element let's also head over to their website right meow this stuff essentially electrolytes particularly sodium and potassium are the driving force behind energy production from neurons to muscles to every heartbeat stay salty with our tasty drink mix and sparkling electrolyte options i just read that right off their website every one of these packets and let's just scroll to see what they have here the insider bundle this is going to give you four flavors per month you can build it obviously to choose your flavors here's what they got lemonade salt can't recommend it enough citrus watermelon raspberry grapefruit orange raw and unfiltered for people who hate their life mango chili great for cocktails chocolate salt and chocolate caramel unbelievable for hot chocolate beverages variety pack here a great way to expose yourself to a brand that you may not have bought much from yet or anything these are their sparkling electrolyte drinks each one of these this is a sixteen ounce beverage has the same amount of electrolytes it's the one thousand milligrams three hundred milligrams and sixty milligrams of respectively sodium potassium and magnesium each of these sparkling waters has that in there as well and they have it in watermelon black cherry lime citrus salt and grapefruit they also have a variety pack pretty soon at some point they are going to be coming out with smaller twelve ounce containers in there was a pineapple salt i tried it at the most recent spg camp holy cow my favorite flavor now pineapple may not be your jam so it might not be your favorite flavor but i'm saying they keep adding different ways to get this electrolyte balance into your body if you're a fan of being balanced if you're a fan of working out hard and recovering i cannot recommend enough this product the difference in my body and recovery when i use it and when i don't is palpable i can feel it head over to drinklement dot com clearedhot you're gonna get a free sample pack which is probably the best way or variety pack sample some of their flavors you're gonna like one of them if not more than one of them then you can make a more educated order drinklement dot com clearedhot take your recovery your salt and your electrolyte gain team seriously back.

[Dan Hull]

To the show it's pretty cool shoe works really well and there's zero sand intrusion that's that's the big thing why.

[Host]

Guys it doesn't work well up here in the summer though when you're not in the water you know it's just.

[Dan Hull]

Like a kick around shoe no that one is not hot that's just that's just water that's not for i believe in multi purpose well if you want to you can go to church yeah.

[Host]

I enjoyed the skater type shoe right i've always been a vans guy and actually i've gotten into rotary wings aviation in the past i'd have to look at my logbook year or so the best shoes to fly in that i have found have flat soles like skating shoes and actually even when i was doing a bunch of skydiving high performance canopies you can surf it in on flat soled shoes the worst is having a jagged and you catch and for you know there's pedals for your left and right control and it's nice to be able to not have a groove that gets caught and you can sit there and slide your feet up right.

[Dan Hull]

I mean i you do a lot of stuff with the one hundred sixtieth guys yeah so yeah they're okay yeah they do some i went to a.

[Host]

Local flight school they're probably on my.

[Dan Hull]

Level they know some stuff those guys are awesome yeah they know their shit.

[Host]

But do you make what do you make differently about that shoe for them if anything the skateboard looking one well so what do you call it by the way so i can just refer to it as that versus the skateboard.

[Dan Hull]

Looking one the t cool if michael wants to pull up the where did.

[Host]

This name come from first off i'm your new consultant for naming that's fucking.

[Dan Hull]

Sucks well it was the tacticool it was and then we said it's too long so let's just call it the t cool no so if you michael can pull up might as well call it the b cool yeah yeah exactly there you go so so it we.

[Host]

Want there's a lower top version than.

[Dan Hull]

That yeah in fact there's a low.

[Host]

Top right there yeah go to low top version michael god you're not even helping us at all there you go yeah that is very van yeah so.

[Dan Hull]

Well that's so what we did though is that you can it's got a true midsole as well advance is just a tape of his hard solid rubber yeah so that you can run it so literally i've got i've gotten so many you know happy comments from guys about for jumping yeah so i mean so i get for that reason you.

[Host]

Can surf it out without worrying about.

[Dan Hull]

Your ankles so one of my key contacts at dev group he emails me goes i gotta tell you i made the biggest mistake he goes i got over seven hundred jumps in me we're all jumping there in arizona he goes and i'm coming in it was beautiful coming in slow i was wearing my innovates with a heel i caught a gopher hole rotational fracture yeah so he goes everyone else is wearing the t cools if i was wearing my t cools i wouldn't have this today he goes no that's all i'm jumping in and the same with the guys at cag they love it for that because again skating in we did a reverse tread in the bottom so do you want some product feedback what's that do.

[Host]

You want some product feedback yeah lighter.

[Dan Hull]

Lighter yeah but so but it's so guys like it but here's the thing.

[Host]

You would have to make a different version i know why you make the version you do for me now as a full just rank civilian right just dicking about montana in a helicopter right i'm going for absolute lightweight weight we.

[Dan Hull]

Had some so the one well the the i think i gave you the carbon six it's it's very light okay.

[Host]

You'Ll love this i get home one day you sent a few pairs i.

[Dan Hull]

Sent a few yeah you're probably cursing i'm sure your wife was like that's.

[Host]

The direction i'm going she was like.

[Dan Hull]

Hey i should have got you her size but she's like hey what are.

[Host]

Those boxes out there i was like well on the outside it says otb so i think dan sent me some boots and then she goes well how many and who are those for i said well tyler wears the same size shoe as me so we'll give him first dibs but the rest of them are probably going to be for me and then it's well where are we going to put those why does somebody need that many boots meanwhile there's a stack of old navy packages from michael can attest to this there's some old yeah i don't know if she'll get pissed if i tell but who cares you know this is what kills me with her so when stuff shows up for me i do what a normal person does i open it she will take old navy packages that either i get for her that come to the mailbox or they're left at the house she'll leave them on the dinner table for two or three days and it.

[Dan Hull]

Drives me oh that would drive nuts i have to open up so i.

[Host]

Asked her why do you do that that and she said that recently i asked her that she said it's kind of like christmas i'm just teasing myself i'm like i married a psychopath so.

[Dan Hull]

I gotta open it up i want to be you know instant pleasure from.

[Host]

That amazon it's impressive i've seen it it's impressive they'll just get packages sorry jane from her mom and they will stay unopened for a long time we both fear that there's something in there that might be like poisonous or dangerous to us so i can understand that one but man you can have christmas every day if something shows up well.

[Dan Hull]

Unbox that thing where i live there's a woman that is like literally a hoarder i live on a live in boston harbor on a custom you're talking like custom designed houseboat but you mean like hoarder hoarder yeah yeah so this she lives on a terrifying she gets literally she gets enough packages every day to cover this table i think she's born like i think she's got like you know like a trust fund i.

[Host]

Was gonna say there's an amount of.

[Dan Hull]

Income that would be required yeah yeah i'm pretty sure it's literally like it would no joke you couldn't see the table like she gets that much a day yeah so there's a you know common male area where i live yeah and it's unbelievable what you guys are.

[Host]

Doing i like the shoe a lot like i said for me and you need to make it i know exactly why you make it because of the.

[Dan Hull]

End user yeah it's so like when they go away they don't take a lot of shoes you can run in.

[Host]

It that's what i'm saying like for me i just i would the only way you could make that shoe better for me it would be to make it just a little bit lighter yeah.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah which which we use waterproof suede so you know that's what dries quickly.

[Host]

A little bit heavier but i get wet flying a helicopter things have gone.

[Dan Hull]

Wrong exactly you know yeah i would not wear that yeah for that yeah yeah the one in the corner is is kind of like my that's not the t cool mid actually the one on the bottom right yeah the bottom right that's called the incline mid if you type in otb incline mid michael you'll that's our solomon killer so to speak it's got a.

[Host]

Click on an image so it's a little bit bigger michael go yep yeah so it's got.

[Dan Hull]

A toe so you're taking it you know you're taking a knee the toes there you can kick in a door whatnot it's waterproof you should know that.

[Host]

You never kick a tone with your or kick a door with your toes.

[Dan Hull]

Toe that's right you full full on.

[Host]

You donkey kick it yeah exactly although i do appreciate it when people straight kick it like that and their foot.

[Dan Hull]

Goes through right well that's why we put the rubber toe there and one.

[Host]

Hundred percent there for that happening right assuming that there is not like a crazy person like a clown on the other side with an axe cutting their leg off i have no problem with somebody getting their foot stuck through a.

[Dan Hull]

Hollow corridor yeah a hollow core exactly.

[Host]

Yeah you know the thing for me that always happened with the solomons is the tread on the bottom vaporized right.

[Dan Hull]

Did you get did you get a pair of those yep i think i.

[Host]

Got a pair yeah in the summertime.

[Dan Hull]

I'M full no stay away because it's it's it's a it's got a membrane in there not the g word g o r e yeah but it's it has a other membrane yeah we didn't we didn't use any gore and or vibram yeah just because you pay for that name yeah for sure it's like i i use the analogy of you go to the supermarket you have betty crocker you have duncan hines and giardelli brownie mix they're all brownies but they a little different recipe yeah we use some really good sticky rubbers yeah for.

[Host]

Me the salomons the soles it was like they were an f one tire i mean they'd last you a couple laps but those things just came apart and the next thing you know you had basically i mean they look nothing like ice skates but all that the weird geometric it almost looked like a cat foot cat food little yeah thing they're just gone yeah but when you're at a place that has a cool.

[Dan Hull]

Budget well exactly yeah i mean who.

[Host]

Is this psychopath on this instagram one.

[Dan Hull]

Here you know that that is jamie is it caldwell i think so click on that former cad guy straight down.

[Host]

The only one with the picture of.

[Dan Hull]

The face yeah so i mean that's from his he you're the ten sir i need you to say no no but he he's a former cad guy and i sent some boots to him yeah so that's just i know how that that popped up it's probably from a post he did on instagram but he he's a big fisherman now too so we're we're doing a a new shoe that he'll be wearing called the pia latta it's pirate in italian like kind of like how do you come up with these things well it's it's my my technical designer was a like me as a cyclist and there was this italian guy called the paratha so.

[Host]

Here'S what we'll do we'll do we'll do a lightweight version of the vans type shoe right okay we'll do a coyote version and od green it'll be called and then balls and you'll put them side by side yeah see this i mean to me michael you would.

[Dan Hull]

Buy that well so here well you'll like this so one of our you know our irreverent marketing ideas but we would donate all of it to charity is to start an only fans page an otb onlyfans page but we don't know how it's going to make money.

[Host]

But doing them here's where you're gonna get inundated with things that you don't want because you can solicit for foot content exactly from users and you're not gonna like what you get well i.

[Dan Hull]

Could get i mean literally the entire seventy fifth ranger regiment just holding it covering their naughty bits i think i don't know we want something that's a.

[Host]

Thing half of them wouldn't be well.

[Dan Hull]

True but i mean something that's gonna be tongue in cheek comical irreverent but you know and we'd put all the money to charity so that's you know.

[Host]

I think there's better ways yeah but.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah it's like because we we actually googled like who's using only fan i guess i feel like i think liquid death is trying and a few others are you serious yeah yeah i think i think there's a few other brands experimenting with only fans and how do you do that i mean it is.

[Host]

Certainly a new newer genre right what a weird utilization of the internet where anybody could become i'll be honest i've never been on the website i don't.

[Dan Hull]

Know exactly what they do i was i was in key west visiting with some of the dive lockers down there i'm at a noodle place and there are two let's say working women in front of me yeah talking about their their page i wish i had another person with me just to like just.

[Host]

Like roll eyes i mean i'm not gonna hate on anybody for how they choose to live their life no they.

[Dan Hull]

Were talking about like feet pictures that they were they were and like you know i make more on my black socks than my white sock b it was really interesting it was a education.

[Host]

I'M going to give you a website that you can check out on your own time yeah michael what was it foot fetish what we pulled this up.

[Dan Hull]

It was foot finder or yeah feet finder maybe listen i don't know if i want to do that on an anonymous browser i'm a shoe guy i'm.

[Host]

Not a foot guy well you know what goes into shoes right so can't have one without the other right go put it in whatever they call the privacy mode on your browser head on over to it's either footfinder or feefinder dot com there are more categories oh i can you would expect well that's.

[Dan Hull]

What i would learn from this listening to the table next to me i.

[Host]

Was really like there's you know there i think there was one for heels stockings socks but then it gets a little bit weird oh yeah stinky feet.

[Dan Hull]

How do you dirty feet i'd love to know how you get that smell you know smell arama i would assume.

[Host]

That they're waffle stomping of some kind and then taking a picture of that so your brain can fill in the break you know yeah so yeah i'm not saying that'd be a great marketing sector for otb maybe get some banner.

[Dan Hull]

Space well yeah but i mean again we're just chuckling like how do we.

[Host]

I mean guys you like like feet we do too we got some let's.

[Dan Hull]

Link up we got some pretty you know some of the guys in the seventy fifth ranger regiment who we've come to you know befriend in a good way are comical i mean as can be comical af and you know they even say oh we have some great.

[Host]

Ideas for that so keep him from getting fired right on that entrepreneurial journey if you look back is there one thing that sticks out is the hardest thing you had to hardest hurdle you had to get over or around a.

[Dan Hull]

Lot of things i mean so i've done a lot of entrepreneurial things like to kind of make hay in the middle a lot of consulting i've done a lot of military stuff i mean throughout it to get to where otb and that probably got me to where it is so you know the brand aku or aku yeah if you pull up michael aku aku ns five hundred ninety four jesus aku ns nine hundred fifty four or nine hundred and sixty four nine hundred and sixty four yeah there you go so i five hundred.

[Host]

And sixty four or nine hundred and.

[Dan Hull]

Sixty four we'll see five hundred and sixty four five hundred and sixty four so that's you right there i put together with the italian so looks a.

[Host]

Lot like a la sportiva well aku.

[Dan Hull]

Is an italian brand so i was contacted by the the army secret guys and saying hey we're we need a we need a shoe yeah and that looks not like american and we're you know we need a three hundred of them so you know i you know went in their command it was pretty cool actually you know brad thomas i know the name yeah he was in blackhawk down he you know he was a ranger at the time for that but then he why wouldn't they just cuts that that what's that why wouldn't.

[Host]

They just get a credit card out non attributed with that command and just.

[Dan Hull]

Pay for it this was a special makeup form so i so i brought in a bunch of different akus and models and said if you take this part from here we kind of missed.

[Host]

A particular they had particular requirements well.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah so they wanted so anyway we came up with this and we we did it and then it really got that brand into military and tactical so then after cagwar sbs sas it's quite quite big if you go to the website aku dot it they have a whole new whole military lineup or tactical lineup that they now do i mean in the middle of that so you know so i've got them go in the corner hit up the british flag in the right corner and say of.

[Host]

The italian oh make michael do it in italian italiano english and yeah there you go first off i haven't been to your website but please do not have this many little pop ups show up absolutely despise the that do that.

[Dan Hull]

We we don't do that oh man.

[Host]

That'S almost a solomon esque there too.

[Dan Hull]

But yeah but but they if you go up into men there and then.

[Host]

I have not heard of this brand.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah so they're go to either professional maybe no left it's one of the.

[Host]

Yep military three over yeah yeah there.

[Dan Hull]

You go so they've hit deny on.

[Host]

That damn cookie thing michael on the bottom deny deny don't view the preferences.

[Dan Hull]

Deny yeah so so that that one so now here's here's that second one.

[Host]

Is such an italian looking shit right.

[Dan Hull]

But so here here's the funny thing is see the ns five stuff yeah so when i did it you know i couldn't they said who's it for i just said the special forces so they immediately thought and this is really funny they thought it was for the navy seals so they gave it the ns number when it was for cag they kind of chuckled at that sorry guys yeah so anyway it was pretty funny so they got him into that so i've done that in my entrepreneurial journey to kind of you know pay for stuff along the way i had a contract with the swiss amor swiss to upgrade their military footwear you know even though they're a neutral country they have a military everyone everyone in switzerland is in the military service yeah yeah most guns per capita in the world actually really yeah because every every you have to have a gun at the door take up arms okay so against.

[Host]

Everybody or anybody in particular anyone that.

[Dan Hull]

Comes in yeah so what if it's other swiss people they would shoot them i guess it's also because of that that i think it's one of the highest suicide rates too but well if.

[Host]

You are choosing to go down that path using a tool designed to take life is probably a good option yeah.

[Dan Hull]

Exactly so that's an interesting fact there but yeah so i did i worked with the armor swiss but it's comical you know working at with natick or devcom you know i have to go you have to practically have a full body cavity search to get in there and i go in you know if the guys like feed up reading the newspaper i say i'm here to see you know savannah come on in but it was but i met with the air force all seven pilots it was pretty funny but it was a fun project and then i also had a year with his majesty king abdullah doing footwear upgrades to the jordanian military i.

[Host]

Never have spent any time thinking about the size of the ecosystem that you work in but it seems like it's.

[Dan Hull]

Massive well here's the deal there's not a lot of guys doing it and you get found out how have you.

[Host]

Maintained your passion for this for so.

[Dan Hull]

Long i just love making footwear what.

[Host]

Is the favorite pair of shoe you've ever had on the one that's like the top of the heap of all because i feel like you've had your hands on a lot of shoes yeah.

[Dan Hull]

So i get asked all the time what's the best shoe well it depends.

[Host]

On what you can do with it.

[Dan Hull]

True but you know my answer is it's like i said it's not otb i said it's the one that fits i mean comically sounds stupid because one of the things you know now getting back to otb we really worked hard on the fit on the last you know the shoe last is the form so we really have a good last.

[Host]

Is it true that nike shoes are narrow because most of their shoes are made off of prefontaine's last or they.

[Dan Hull]

Originally they were no i have to concur that nike has a narrower fit i think to their fault right now.

[Host]

Yeah might be an urban legend i heard that was associated with the first.

[Dan Hull]

Last they took so so here's a true story i mean so when they developed their stuff back in the day in new hampshire because they were all you know people that were learning shoemaking and you know a lot of them were ex jocks and they you know you learn from doing they also looked at the father of sport footwear adidas and they copied a lot of last from adidas i mean i'm talking back in the exeter days so i mean as the the moniker said you know the last is first in shoemaking so if you have a good last you have a great fit yeah so that's what we really focus on is that you know because again especially for military guys or if they're rucking at the end of the day their feet are wider so we have a we make our last a full fitting not wide but we do have wides as well yeah so just again knowing your customers listening to what their needs are at the end of the day i don't want to you know be peeling myself out of the shoes so i did.

[Host]

Appreciate when reebok was designing the shoes for crossfit i had no experience with the barefoot last i did like how it felt with the wider toe box but again not for every activity yeah but kick around just cruising through daily life i actually kind of appreciate it it felt better on my feet right.

[Dan Hull]

Now if you go to any military installation one of the biggest shoes out there is altra a l t r a wide foot you know it's an ergonomic fit kind of looks goofy clown foot little fred flintstone but pretty good fit if you get it you know for the wide guys i mean thirty three percent as the dod tells us are wide in the military you never.

[Host]

Answer what's your favorite shoe oh so.

[Dan Hull]

What'S my favorite shoe you know it's funny a few i guess growing up the waffle trainer from nike was like that was like today it's pull that up michael i gotta see the nike waffle trainer if you is this based.

[Host]

Off the original him putting rubber into.

[Dan Hull]

A waffle pretty pretty much so cuz.

[Host]

That'S how he did the original souls.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah so oh man yeah this is a classic yeah yeah i mean it's.

[Host]

Yeah just hit nike waffle shoes michael one down or don't we look up.

[Dan Hull]

Like the older ones yeah because it's it's not it's it's pretty similar to but that's like that was technical at the time i mean it was just a die cut eva thing so that to me was like you know it was super expensive at the time michael.

[Host]

Scroll down i'm curious the price of.

[Dan Hull]

These shoes well yeah but vintage blue.

[Host]

Nike shoes men size nine yeah they're made in korea in seventies and eighties look like they've been worn every day since then yeah one twelve forty nine.

[Dan Hull]

Michael not bad not bad but so that that was like what kind of got me into it and i i would i had a few pairs and i literally would like take an exacto and like you know take the stitching out and figure out the backing and how they were i just you know at least thankfully it wasn't it was that not high heels but yeah but.

[Host]

I'M not here to judge you not.

[Dan Hull]

That there's anything wrong with that right but yeah so that so that's got me really into it i've had some good you know again because i eat sleep and drink otb i wear a lot of that t cool shoe i like for kicking around today well what.

[Host]

Are you passionate about outside of footwear what else do you like to do.

[Dan Hull]

Cycling i'm a cyclist you know i used to run body doesn't do it i actually used to do a lot of paddling i used to race kayaks stand up paddleboards or i have a i have a a support that actually made like during during COVID it was great because again i mentioned i live on a houseboat when everything was shut down i could go dead nuts across boston harbor no one would be there.

[Host]

But me that was such a wild.

[Dan Hull]

Time yeah in paddle too i was.

[Host]

In la when it shut down the night that it shut down and yeah my wife and i went from la to pretty well not all the way to the tijuana border in san diego but i'll call it southern san diego in a time i had never seen it was eerie like are we shooting a movie about the apocalypse right now.

[Dan Hull]

Right yeah it was it was wacky i mean i yeah i mean i would i would get in the sup almost every day or my kayak and just i could you know being an older gentleman i would have to use the restrooms a lot i could just go to any dock and just go so it was pretty good because no one was out and so it was yeah it was wild time yeah so i mean yeah so cycling and paddling or i haven't done a lot of paddling late because i snapped the old wrist in a nice little superman bike accident superman over there so just getting back there but still getting the bike that's the sucky part about living in the city when i lived in the south of boston you know i had beautiful places to ride getting out of the city not too fun do you.

[Host]

Have anything else in your life you've been as passionate about as footwear is there any other thing that you have devoted maybe not as much energy but it's had as much interest for you or has it always just been footwear.

[Dan Hull]

No no i mean so i mean things that you know i get into cycling and kayaking those two where i used to race i used to get up every morning and i would paddle for two hours plus every day during my reebok time i was a patagonia pro he's doing a lot of testing for them i'd get ten shells and say we need feedback in two weeks and because i was a product engineer guy i gave them fastidious details so they would send you it was really cool and they did it because they don't want you to wear them out you get one that was pink and brown so in a sense you're testing two garments in one it was kind.

[Host]

Of cool it's actually a good idea.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah it was brilliant idea idea and and i'd be out and you know i'd stop and i'd have to take it off how much sweats in here how much sweats on this side and.

[Host]

They loved you oh big time oh.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah i was featured in one of their catalogs once but yes i would.

[Host]

Send it back like don't like the color yeah like yeah that's that's not.

[Dan Hull]

What we're the pink and brown i could have been it's like perfect dunkin donut color you know if i only had orange in it it'd be great but yeah so that was a big one and then and then you know getting big into cycling so one of my my buddies who was at vans got me into cycling when we were at audi together and yeah so did a lot of cycling yeah yeah you know done enough you know i'm outdoor like you know adventure race you know a lot of camping and stuff in.

[Host]

The past what are you gonna do after otb.

[Dan Hull]

Good question hopefully if it goes well i'll be able to buy my little dream house on the water somewhere with a with a with a garage and probably build some boats that's where i mean i so i i built my own sup so it's kind of an interesting story before new balance when we were in the midst of trying to sell it my then wife got a job as a professor she couldn't find one in the states so she took a job in ksa i was going to go with her and then she after the company got sold she goes no i'm still going to go i'm like you don't have to now we got this pretty good salary and we're all set anyway she went and my kids did too they were at the british international school i was going about every six weeks i had a lot of business in the gulf but during that time i was alone so i really got into like wooden boat building i made a beautiful supboard and i've always i was a tinkerer you know growing up my grandfather was a cabinet maker and my dad was an engineer so you know kind of learned the wood shop so to speak so yeah i mean i would love to build you know more like boats or just work with wood you know furniture and stuff like that yeah i.

[Host]

Don'T see you being the kind of person that's going to retire on a porch swing with a cup of tea.

[Dan Hull]

Magazine no no i'll always do something i mean you know i kind of i mentioned earlier i mean literally it crushes me that all these lobbyists within the you know military footwear thing are like pushing this giant made in america act trust me i love made in america we love everything to be made here but they've got to start from the root cause a new last new specifications for leather new text allowing you know different materials because it's literally like between nineteen sixty and nineteen eighty spec yeah and if you made a better boot these guys wouldn't be buying an otb or a nike nike makes a military boot or you know so literally.

[Host]

They need to they need to have a more realistic expectation for velocity of those things returning too well here's here's the problem it's not going to happen.

[Dan Hull]

In trump's term oh i mean so it's never going i mean i hate to say this so here's if it.

[Host]

Were to let's like say we could on that course and at an optimal level there's not even the machinery available in a lot of these things in the country let alone people trained on.

[Dan Hull]

Them how to use them exactly so i go to the i'm part of the dod footwear committee every six months you know we get together and it's pretty much you know electric carts and walkers you know i'm a young guy i'm in my sixties and i'm young at this meeting so there's there's no one you know i'm like the last guy that you know that knows shoemaking so if you go to the us boot manufacturers today there's not a lot of young guys in there not at all so there's really and there's not a lot of some of the barrier compliant companies are upgrading their equipment and they make a good product to the spec that's out there it's the spec that's bad they're making good quality stuff stuff but it's it's heavy the rubber's thick there's only one supplier vibram they have a monopoly so yeah i mean honestly i mean i would love to work on that you know kind of a pet project just to make you know us boots better i kind of.

[Host]

Like i'm friends with pete from origin right founder and ceo of origin and he talks about they make a boot up there yeah not a tactical boot.

[Dan Hull]

It'S afterwards i want to get i want to get up there and find out where they exactly they are i'd love to see those it's farmington okay.

[Host]

Yeah it's basically the middle of nowhere yeah yeah yeah which is by definition.

[Dan Hull]

That'S that's where i learned shoemaking so.

[Host]

Well they make boots and i'm paraphrasing what pete has told me so people don't hold me to this exact i.

[Dan Hull]

Know the line so it's a stitch down yeah it's it's a nice boot.

[Host]

Well they found the last guy who knew how to use the machine right and he had to pass that knowledge on and he did and i believe they filmed a bunch of videos and then he taught somebody and he recently passed yeah had they not found that guy you could have found that machine but the then and that's the problem that the you know i'm friends with josh smith down at montana knife we were down there and he is all about trying to bring manufacturing back into the us one of the things he's bouncing up with it was a piece of it was a couple pieces of machinery was it a polisher it was something but the machine itself shelf is not made in the us so he's going to have to buy it and import it which he's willing to do right but then he might be staring down the barrel of a thirty to fifty tariff on top of that and that's stopping him in his tracks right because that's a hell of a lot.

[Dan Hull]

Of capital that might be going away as of today at today i mean so what's going on today well the.

[Host]

Because it might be back tomorrow actually tomorrow's a saturday so probably not the.

[Dan Hull]

Lower courts or whatever the hell the day is yeah the lower courts have ruled the terrorists are illegal yeah but but and here's what i said he's gonna he's going to the supreme court now so that's going to be interesting.

[Host]

Yeah and then that's and a lot of people are complaining about this although it is painful and i'm not enjoying it either i'm glad to see this level of checks and balances working itself out because at least to me the machine is somewhat functioning i'm not saying it's like cranking in fifth gear and optimally right but these challenges this doesn't bother me where it nets out is really interesting but a guy like josh i mean he's investing millions into his facility and he's looking at this like hey man i'm trying to do right what you are messaging for us to do and then financially punishing me for.

[Dan Hull]

Doing this and the same thing so so if you look at us auto industry right you know american built american trucks you know the f one hundred fifty get the parts with right yeah it's canada it's mexico it's it's asia so i mean it's just assembled even though say so the same there's there's all kinds of buffoonery and the footwear laws about what you can call made in usa apparently as well if it.

[Host]

Passes through enough steps in the united states it can then be called american made but it's not so there's there's.

[Dan Hull]

A company a work boot company i almost don't want to name them they are taking us hides so us leather there's not a lot of tanneries left it's like two basically kind of three and they send it to china do all the cutting and assembly there bring it back and put it together with an american flag stitched on and it says made in usa that i believe.

[Host]

Should have a label you're free to have a label if you want but i don't know if it should be.

[Dan Hull]

That one well so new balance has something it's unofficially called the new balance rule they say that if seventy percent of the cost of the shoe is done in america we can put a made in america and no one's gone against that so they do a lot of what within the industry is called lick and stick they take the upper and attach the bottom like lick and stick so that's in the shoe business so they do a lot of that their main usa product a lot of it's just lick and stick so the.

[Host]

Sticker should say made ish no it.

[Dan Hull]

Should say assembled so it has to say assembled that's actually fair so keen which makes a good quality product with the big toe they just put a factory and they take their uppers they make a lot of uppers in india though they just got jacked with fifty percent tariffs on the uppers and they inject them put the soils on in the states so they've got you know a workforce down there the biggest problem so i mean i'm friends with a lot of the us boot makers and military their biggest problem is labor you can't get the labor i mean and it doesn't they don't stick around because again i'm sure my kids are older than your kids i think but you know my kids i'm sure seventeen old oldest would be twenty two yes i'm twenty nine twenty seven yeah but they they didn't graduate saying hey i want to work in a shoe factory i.

[Host]

Don'T know if i could get my.

[Dan Hull]

Kids to do that right no not many people today i mean yeah if you go into a so i i'm i'm working with a company right now this one actually i didn't wear that because outdoor research to we're making an.

[Host]

Hard to read it because it's camo.

[Dan Hull]

Right it's yeah you didn't even know i'm wearing a shirt so we're doing an overboot you know for the winter and you know they've got a great factory but a lot of their workers weren't american born if you go to kry i respect those guys immensely their whole staff stitching staff and they're not.

[Host]

American born that i think finding something other than that would be anomalous right.

[Dan Hull]

Yeah i mean most stitching like you go to anywhere in la yeah it's all you know it's probably a lot of you know hispanic people but in any event there's not a lot of people that want to do that work in the states that's that's the thing it's like yo we gotta bring jobs back no one really wants to do it you know i wonder if there's.

[Host]

A role i mean is that where something where ai can come in and fill that role and i don't have.

[Dan Hull]

An answer to this so when i was working for vf i was director of engineering and you know the job was really really automate the f out of this process it's it's because that's the most expensive part is the labor i mean they would take pennies out granted i mean for instance they owned jansport and that one little backpack that everyone wears going to school you know the fob was like four dollars literally and it was like we got to take you know they're making gazillions of them just just save me three pennies.

[Host]

Yeah that multiplied by a large number.

[Dan Hull]

Is a large number huge yeah so i mean so that's in a sense you have to take that back in the states because for let's say vans any vulcanized shoe meaning like like a vans or a converse it's called you know it's a tape a rubber tape that goes around the sole there's a lot of labor of putting that tape on yeah so you know when i was there there was the biggest factor that makes both actually guy was smart he was a taiwanese guy he was trying to literally using robots to try to do that so you know suddenly they're getting smart and trying to take as much out or making computer stitching where they can yeah but it's still a lot you saw there's a lot of hand labor involved an incredible amount.

[Host]

And this was many years ago i.

[Dan Hull]

Don'T know how much no not much okay no i mean they're they're you know they're they're inching along making it but it's still i mean the the cutting remember if you remember the cutting cutting dies yeah they're now doing a lot of that with laser laser cutting like they'll put all the material down and you know from above and you know so you know stuff like that it's more accurate but it's footwear is a very labor intensive item man what.

[Host]

A hell of a journey yeah i'm fascinated i'm fascinated by people's entrepreneurial experiences have you had to meet anybody who has said oh yeah just totally went as planned and not really any speed bumps it was just all growth and profit and felt like coasting a bicycle.

[Dan Hull]

Downhill the entire time so i mean i had to you know i want to say fail but fumble a few times to get to where we are know what we did wrong the first few times but along the way i still had other stuff i mean so i've always wanted to i guess be entrepreneurial so one of the things also at reebok when i was overseeing the outdoor division from a development perspective the guy said hey we're going to make climbing shoes and i'm like i i live in this world i said i'm like i you know i'm a big ocean paddler i i i hike i climb i said no one wants to wear a reebok climbing shoe no so he goes well we're going to do it must have had a pump yeah yeah right so he hired he signed up at the time like the alex honnold of climbing this guy todd skinner and we worked we put together one of the most beautiful climbing shoes and made in the la sportiva factory in italy and just beautiful but the worst thing about it was the name who the hell wants so anyway that marketing guy left the shoes sat so it didn't go anywhere so i ended up scooping them up from reebok i got a sign and i get to sell them on the internet when the internet was starting ninety seven i registered climbingshoes dot com early adopter yeah seriously i mean you couldn't get that moniker today so at night i'd be answering the emails and i had a fulfillment house.

[Host]

So you've had this in you your.

[Dan Hull]

Whole life well i've always yeah i want to do something yeah kind of.

[Host]

Itchy like that and some people have it and some people don't and i don't know why that is the case i think you're out of the box.

[Dan Hull]

With that drive yeah yeah i just you know well it's it gets back to the you know being happy that i'm not dealing with in a meeting with forty five people and like you know the the loudest which is the most knuckleheaded person you know you just want to get away from that if.

[Host]

You guys think you could do ten million this year what would your your projections be for twenty six twenty seven what's your goal i should say what would you like to get it to.

[Dan Hull]

In those years so we're projected to double almost in the next three years hell yeah yeah i mean that's i mean that's that's what it's looking like what we have so yeah we're we're we're really looking good i mean we we haven't even really tapped international we've got a few folks signed up for that we have this new what you hate the pirata named the pirate hated i know it i just am curious where they come from yes so the italian for pirate but anyway when that comes out you know kind of an upgrade to that altamis shoe that they sell almost anywhere at the time it was like eighty to one hundred thousand a year it's gonna be a big one for us wow so because works well in the water but a lot of like if again you haven't been to the good old shot show oh i've been many times oh i know recently recently no i don't ever want to that's where we yeah i don't ever want to return oh i mean that's why i don't remember i sent you the cart traffic oh it's insane oh it's not fun how do those.

[Host]

Cart people get the passes to attend that i don't understand it's not supposed to be looky loo it's supposed to be for consumer and vendor or not even consumer and vendor basically end user and vendor and you're not supposed to be able to do any business there even though of course business gets done.

[Dan Hull]

But well i think the last few years they've cracked down so it used to be i mean just i'm not anti gun i'm not a gun person but almost anyone could get like i'm a gun dealer you know and with that you got an entrance to the shot show yeah so with that you had a lot of guys that were just like working in the garage on you know filing you know their their weapons so and they they really i guess you now have to you know prove sales and all that so so it's really cut down on the riff raff i mean the guys pulling the.

[Host]

Milk cartons you watch them they just go booth to booth and all they're there for is what does this particular stickers what are you giving away for free right like it's mints but i see that your shopping cart already is.

[Dan Hull]

Full of mints so well yeah it's catalogs which today it's like qr code dude seriously we're at the cost into actual physical products right so which yeah you can take the qr code and save it on your phone you can look at it anywhere and then transfer that to your computer so yeah so we do that but but yeah it's a necessary evil but we're gonna have a bigger booth this year we've got a bigger international presence a lot of folks been knocking on our door which is nice coming to us that's awesome man i'm glad to hear it all over so yeah it's yeah i wake up pretty happy i mean i'm in a actually a very very nice relationship that's smoking big time i've been a great you know know business is going great so yeah life's life's pretty good right now hell yeah been at it.

[Host]

For a few hours man let's get you out to montana what do you want to leave people with here's a good suggestion where they can find and.

[Dan Hull]

Buy your boots oh otb boots dot com yep but i guess just you know i guess listening to my story where i talked way too much that's.

[Host]

The point the guest is supposed to.

[Dan Hull]

Talk about true and i as my mother dearly departed mother would say you know danny you've got diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain but i mean yeah there are hurdles along the way but if you got a plan as i tell my kids you can do anything really just get a plan and follow it it's not i.

[Host]

Pair that with a willingness to continue working regardless of what happens yeah and.

[Dan Hull]

You will fail at stuff there's plans.

[Host]

Let me tell you as somebody who's written a few that didn't work out so well it was the willingness to change when needed but also to continue working when things sucked that see you right towards that end goal well yeah.

[Dan Hull]

I mean whether it be i mean i was never in your shoes militarily but if you've got a good plan if shit goes haywire you've got to.

[Host]

You know well in your good plan you'll have a primary alternate contingency right you know exactly also known as a.

[Dan Hull]

Pace plan right yeah you gotta yeah you gotta know yeah we have a lot of the you know what if scenarios now yeah so we have a.

[Host]

Lot of those those are what actually eat your lunch most of the time the big moving pieces aren't as variable.

[Dan Hull]

As the what ifs yeah so we spent a lot of the last probably six months you know which i hate it's the worst part is raising capital.

[Host]

Yeah necessary evil it sounds like in.

[Dan Hull]

What you're doing though yeah but you know again it's the opm method other people's money i'm not trying to you know waste their money because i really want to return my investors money i'm as passionate passionate as they are well.

[Host]

It sounds like you're on track to.

[Dan Hull]

Be able to do so yeah we're pretty happy i think i think so it's it's it's definitely quite frankly it's working better than we thought so it's.

[Host]

Good a lot of people live on the socials these days what's the best.

[Dan Hull]

Social for otb it's you know on instagram i think we're otb underscore boots i'm pretty sure that would be a good one for you guys yeah because there wasn't there wasn't otb boots that it's out there but it's an old one so i think it's otb underscore boots on instagram between that and that's really our biggest right now we're on facebook otb boots and then our website.

[Host]

So any final thoughts you want to.

[Dan Hull]

Leave people with thanks for having me no like i said if you want to do something just get a plan you got it so it's gonna be.

[Host]

A little harder than that people but i like the optimism awesome man thank you thank you.