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Episode 420 - Brent Tucker - From Delta Force to being sued for 25 Million Dollars
02:48:16
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- [00:03]
A
Okay, I got the red smoke. Sun runs north or south. West of the smoke. West of the smoke. Okay, copy.
- [00:12]
B
West of the smoke.
- [00:13]
A
I'm looking at danger close now. Oh, wait a minute.
- [00:17]
B
Give it to me. I mean it.
- [00:18]
A
You're cleared hot. Copy, cleared hot. You know what I was thinking on the way over here today is that one day, not today, but one day, I will have my sweet, sweet revenge on you for that hot tub. And I don't even know what it's going to look like.
- [00:36]
B
I know, not today, right?
- [00:39]
A
But one day, I'm. Because before forgiveness becomes revenge, I absolutely.
- [00:46]
B
I'm a petty man. I fight that. I fight it all the time. I'm a petty man.
- [00:49]
A
So many people have asked me if I knew about that, and I tell them, no, I had absolutely no idea. And they don't believe me. I'm like, I think you could watch the video and see in my face that I wasn't emotionally prepared for that. I knew you guys were doing something, but if I had written down 50 options of what I thought you were doing, an inflatable hot tub was not there.
- [01:12]
B
I don't know why that episode was. And you was the time. You're like, we've never done anything creative. I don't even know if I'd put that in the creative concept.
- [01:25]
A
It meets some creative criteria.
- [01:27]
B
But for whatever reason, I was like, we gotta do this. It was a major, major pain in the butt to do it and probably wasn't worth it. The comment section wasn't excited as I was about it, but I'd also do it over again.
- [01:45]
A
How could you not? Like I said, I'll take a decade to figure out what I'm gonna do back to you, and I don't know what it's gonna be.
- [01:52]
B
Oh, if. If our comment section wasn't bad, I don't know why some of my friends have to, like, show me the, like the. The Reddit comments. But the Reddit's the most savage place to go.
- [02:03]
A
I never really go into the Reddit waters. I'm aware of what it is.
- [02:07]
B
Good for you.
- [02:08]
A
Well, what are you gonna find there? You know, like, what am I looking for in life?
- [02:16]
B
Hatred and darkness is what you'll find there.
- [02:20]
A
What do you think what type of life? I oftentimes think this when it's people online and they are living their worst expression. What do you think their life is like? Because I don't think they're living a great existence.
- [02:36]
B
I don't know. But I think this is the odd part about Reddit, especially when it comes to like the JSOC archives or the various special operations ones. There's just enough truth in there mixed in with a lot of theories that, that they can't really figure out what's true.
- [02:58]
A
But it's sticky, it grabs people and.
- [03:01]
B
Sometimes I want to go just get in there, be like, actually, that dude's right, believe it or not. And, and then I want to know, how do you know? How do you know that? Because they're all, they're all, you know, looking at this from a distance and some of them are really are spot on, on, on things they say. But luckily there's so much misinformation out there, no. No one knows what's right.
- [03:24]
A
Here's what I can say. I. I've been out of the game for a long time and part of being at the command after you pass your tssci, which is hilarious by the way, you get your interim like instantaneously right. You can't go into, get read into these programs. Eventually two years later I think it comes through and they go and they read you in. And I've only been read into a couple and years after. I didn't directly search the terms on Google, but I worked my way around it. It's all out there. People just don't know necessarily what to look for.
- [04:02]
B
Right.
- [04:02]
A
But I think people stumble across some of this stuff and I actually think a lot of the time they don't know what they're looking at.
- [04:11]
B
And I think that some of the both of our commands, I think heartache with people coming out public, and I get it, and I try to only say what I believe is appropriate, is that there's one thing for it to be out there and open source and there's another thing to go out there and confirm it or point people towards it or port.
- [04:36]
A
Like I said, I'll talk about Googling stuff. Nobody. And I've said that before in many podcasts, but nobody will ever find a cliff of me saying you should Google fill in the blank. Like ttps are important to protect. How has your, how has your community responded to you being a little bit more public facing and consumer facing?
- [04:57]
B
Bittersweet. Yeah. And. And as, as expected, to be honest with you, there's guys in my community that just. I think some of the frustration is they hold a higher standard than the actual standard.
- [05:13]
A
Yeah.
- [05:13]
B
And, and that's fine. And I don't, I don't look down on them for, for having a higher standard than the actual. That's that's always, I think, something that should be looked up to. But I think the problem is, is when you hold a higher standard and then you expect everyone else to. To hold that standard that you've created for yourself. Yeah, that's fair. I don't have to do that. I mean, I respect it. And there still is a lot of weight, as, you know, of kind of being somewhat a public figure coming from a tier one unit, because what you say does represent where you come from. So, you know, I go out there and I try to. I try to tell the truth as I know it, but do it a professional way. And to go out there and, you know, just spew, I don't know, almost like hate speech or do it. Do it in a way that's just unprofessionally. It reflects on the unit. And so I. That. That weighs heavily on me. Yeah.
- [06:17]
A
I always try to be just very honest. I did the minimum amount of required time there. I would have liked to have stayed, and I think had I not gotten hurt, I probably would have stayed. But that's not how it played out in the cards for me. And I always say that, like, hey, guys, I know people, and I'm sure you do, too, who were on their 14th, 15th, 16th appointment. That wasn't me, and I didn't do any of that. And though. And people will ask me, well, you know, why do you say your career was average? I'm like, you don't understand the cohort.
- [06:47]
B
Of people that I know.
- [06:49]
A
If I say anything other than that, I won't be able to sleep it. Right.
- [06:53]
B
It's. It's relative.
- [06:54]
A
Yeah.
- [06:55]
B
And it's what? Oh, and to go back to that question real quick, but it always surprises me the amount of guys that I looked up to or, you know, leaders that were there while I was there, and we're all retired now, and they'll reach out to me and be like, hey, love what you're doing. Like, I think you do it the right way. And the truth does matter. And those guys always make me feel like I'm doing the right thing. Well, what is the other side of that? So there's two sides to it.
- [07:24]
A
What is the published standard for you guys? Today's episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. Guess where these knives are made. Montana. Just down south. I was gonna say Frenchtown, but now they're moving into Missoula, Founded by Josh Smith, the youngest master bladesmith in the history of master bladesmith. This stuff, you gotta see it to believe it. So let's hop over the website. One thing you can still do now is enter this truck giveaway. The ultimate hunting truck giveaway. Also they have some apparel. This is Josh right here, the guy I was just talking about, Jim Miller, who is not good at passing the guard in jiu jitsu. And then that was Brandon. And then we have the Stonewall Skinner here coming down in stock knives. Now let's think about this in the terms of gifts that you could get for the holidays. That's what you should be thinking about. These are the things they have in stock. Trust me, they have plenty that are not in stock which, but look at this. Gift cards. That'd be a great way to pick out something for somebody that you love. And they could get something when it comes into stock. The blades. This is the next blade drop countdown right here. They drop them on Thursdays and Saturdays. I have an MKC blade in my fanny pack. I have them on the bookshelf behind the camera that you can't see. I love these knives. I cook with them. I have the chef knife set. Fantastic blades, fantastic customer service. Bringing jobs back to Montana, vertically integrating the process into an amazing facility that I believe is going to open in early April, which I'll be there with my wife. Montanaknifecompany.com get your holiday shopping in now. And I would hurry. They do quick turn shipping. But I'll tell you what, you push it too late and it's not going to make it and that's not going to be their fault. When you're in the purchase process. Do me a favor. They're going to ask you how you heard about. Tell them it was me and the show. Back to the show.
- [09:08]
B
That's in a weird way, that's a good question. And that's, that's, that's something that, because.
- [09:14]
A
I don't know the answer for our site either, you know.
- [09:18]
B
You know, I feel like it's, it's ended up being a little bit more of a, of an, of an unwritten rule. And yes, we, we did sign an NDA. And I, and I, and I do think to, to some degree when I look back at that, you know, I think I got a little selfish. And I was, you know, I've told the story of, of me getting shot and I was like, that's, that's my story. I'll tell it. And I tried to hide ttps, but in the day, that was, that was a mission that I probably shouldn't have talked about because it was, it was mission Specific. So I think it's a little bit more of a what shouldn't be an unwritten rules. You just don't talk about the unit. But, but, but even with that, that's, that's a wide range. My DD214 says first SFOD Dash D. I mean that's.
- [10:12]
A
How are you expected to explain that without talking about the unit? Like, oh, that's just a typo. I mean how are we supposed to explain this to people?
- [10:20]
B
And I think the, the other part of it is I think we hold ourselves to a, internally, to a, to a higher secret standard that our own government holds us to. Like they out us on things all the time. And I get the counterargument that is whether the government they, you know, it's up to their discretion on, on what they want to release. But I kind of argue that we're either a secret unit or, or we're not. And I feel like sometimes we, we play both sides of that fence. I mean if, if you were, if you were at Blackhawk down in Mogadishu, you know, those guys write books about it, talk about it all the time, as they should. Yeah, they had, they had a really bad day. They earned that. But again, you're either a secret unit or you're not. You know, I'd argue to some degree and not to be disrespectful, those guys, I never would be. Obviously, as you'd imagine, we, those guys are, are gods. I've been in the hallway, I've seen.
- [11:18]
A
The things that are built to commemorate them. And by the way, the stones it would take to make that call on a helicopter, it's not, it is not as if they were thinking, well, I'm obviously hypothesizing, but. So from my understanding they were orbiting overhead, they saw this going on. They knew exactly what they were going to get inserted into. I would have to imagine you would leave a 1% section in your brain to lie to yourself like we're going to get through this. But the other 99% is this is a one way ticket. This. I would love to say that I have the stones to make that call. Dude, I don't know.
- [11:54]
B
I don't know either. I know, same thing. I'd like to say I would, but.
- [11:58]
A
But I've determined, you know, I've thought about this. I don't know. Here's another definition for bravery for you because people oftentimes talk about the career, perhaps bravery sometimes is just not having the courage to run away. Perhaps you're Paralyzed in place out of fear and were unable to run. And then it turned in your favor. And they're like, you are so brave.
- [12:22]
B
We've. We've all had these guys in our career. I worked with this crazy guy in nsf. He was just. I say crazy, crazy in a good way. I'd take him anywhere with me. But I don't know if I would consider him brave because I don't think he really understood the dangers that he was putting himself in. Yeah. So I don't know if that's bravery.
- [12:46]
A
God, that's a. That's a knife that cuts both.
- [12:48]
B
Yeah, I love that guy. And I. I had another guy. One of my. I was getting ready to do one of my first jumps at group, and one senior green break comes up and goes, how you like jumping? I was like, I. I don't like jumping, to be honest with you. He goes. He goes, well, that's what bravery is. You know, something you don't want to.
- [13:12]
A
Do, you do it anyway.
- [13:14]
B
But you do it anyway. That's bravery. And I was like, that was a really stoic moment right before. Just a random static line jump. But that stuck with me to this day. I've always thought about that. It's so true.
- [13:28]
A
Bravery is an interesting one I get when I publicly speak. A lot of times people ask versions of the question, either why did you want to do what you wanted to do? Or how were you able to do the things that the government asked you to do? And sometimes they'll put it through the lens of, how do you. How did. Was it working with people that were fearless and. Which is not the case. Fear was present. I can speak for myself. It's not a matter of whether or not you're scared. It's how you can manage it.
- [13:54]
B
Right.
- [13:54]
A
I'm curious if you saw this. There were. I don't think I've ever done anything brave in my entire life. I've been present when people did things of immense bravery. But I've also. It's not a static setting. Like, if you were to go, one is low bravery and 10 is the most. I don't. I can't say that I would sit at a six, because some days I feel like I'm at a four, and other days you might be at an eight. And I've seen other people do things incredibly brave. And then an amount of time later, like, whoa, it oscillates, man. It's not this steady state.
- [14:31]
B
It does oscillate. And for some missions, I wasn't scared at all. Or nervous, whatever you want to call it. Of course, you know, as we're talking about this, I think about, you know, everyone does it to some degree. Looking around the helicopter, just looking at the guys next to you. No one's fidgeting, no one looks scared. But they're humans. Yeah, they're humans, just like you.
- [14:54]
A
It's harder to pick out though when they're a couple hundred reps deep. Might be having a nightmare, but they're just stone faced. Yeah.
- [15:05]
B
But the most nervous. Not every mission I got nervous for whatever reason, some just felt more nervous than others. But you know, as, you know, like when the, when the helicopter landed, it just. Everything's moving so fast you don't have time to think, which means you don't have time to get scared because you're just keeping up with, you're just trying to keep up with everyone. And so that helps, I think, with, with the fear. So the fear was always before landing. But once, once the bird hit the ground, there's just no time to think. Which is a good thing. I think it's a good thing.
- [15:40]
A
Yeah. I think you existentially need to sort your shit out before the skids hit the ground. I agree with you one, at that point too, you're tagging along with the momentum a little bit. And I think that, that that's the tough one. If static motion or lack of motion by yourself and you have to launch into something that's I think harder than keeping up with the momentum around because I don't know about you, my headspace would often just shift to God, I hope I don't screw anything up. You know, like I need, like these people are relying on me. I need to do my best job humanly. That's, that's legitimately what I was thinking about sometimes though.
- [16:12]
B
Yeah.
- [16:12]
A
Like I'm just. Please don't have an asterisk next to your last name. Like, he sucked.
- [16:19]
B
It's hard not to think about that though, when you work with guys that just, they are, they're just the most competent people you've ever been around. Yeah. That seems like they, that they aren't capable of making mistakes and not.
- [16:33]
A
They're not trying.
- [16:34]
B
Right. And you know yourself how many mistakes that you're capable of making. So it's, it's, it's a tough environment. It really is. It's a, it's, it's the toughest environment I ever worked in and, and I loved it. At the end of the day, I loved.
- [16:50]
A
I.
- [16:51]
B
But I'm A guy who needs. I need the challenge because I. I will get complacent and be like, well, I'm good.
- [16:58]
A
Yeah.
- [16:59]
B
And that's just being honest. I. I need to be challenged.
- [17:04]
A
I've had this conversation with a few people, and this is one of the reasons I think some guys struggle when they get out. Probably gals, too. And again, our jobs are very similar, but different in many ways. Uniform branch of service, all of those things. If I look back at the career, it was very task centric. Here is a job, go do it. And most of your time outside of actually doing the job, you're training to do the job, and those trips are set up. And you know what I mean? There's always. There's just. You go into work on a Monday and it's like, these are the 10 things you boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and you knock them down. The farther I've gotten away from the military, I realized, oh, I did. I wasn't actually finding those tasks. Those were presented to me. Well, then you get out of the military, especially if you thrive in that environment, you're just like, yes, boom, boom, boom. You get out of the military and you wake up on a Monday and you're like, who's giving me the task today? And it's the dude you see in the mirror when you're brushing your teeth.
- [17:58]
B
Yep.
- [17:58]
A
That is a jarring, jarring transition.
- [18:02]
B
I've said this before. I absolutely agree with it. The. The transition to really when it came to being a business owner. Because even when I was a contractor at, you know, you know your task condition, standards, and you have to execute it. But when you're a business owner, if you want to answer emails today, it's on you. If you want to. If you want to go, you know, go on sales calls or, you know, reach out to all these different people, it's all on you. And I found out that I wasn't as good at managing my time as I thought I was.
- [18:36]
A
Same here, man.
- [18:37]
B
And I really had to, at some point, dig in deep and be like, all right, I've got to be my own boss. I have to set these left and right guidelines and stay within them. And it was surprisingly hard.
- [18:53]
A
How long have you been out now?
- [18:55]
B
Got out in 21. Four years.
- [18:57]
A
Dude, you're doing better than I did. I mean, I'd have been out for 12 and change and.
- [19:03]
B
Well, I don't know about that.
- [19:04]
A
Slow start. I like to come out of the starting box slow.
- [19:10]
B
I don't know about that. How many times have you been sued?
- [19:14]
A
You know, none. God, what if. I mean, yeah. I don't know how that's gonna play out. We have to talk about it, too. So you got sued for $25 million.
- [19:31]
B
I did.
- [19:32]
A
From Rob O', Neill, who I've never met. We never crossed paths. And I'll put this out here because people ask me this all the time. They ask for Andy. You know, some of those people, and I do. I know a handful of the people that were there that night. And I have talked with the ones who I'm still. They are a part of my life, even if it's to a lesser degree. And I've gotten some pretty honest answers from them. This is what I always say. I wasn't there that night. I don't know Rob. But the people that I have talked to who were there that night have all told me that the narrative that he has espoused since he started talking about it is not what they experience with their own eyes. And that again, I wasn't there. That is third hand information. I'll be the first person to tell that. But I am hearing that from people that I respect deeply who were there. And I don't know how, if that is the case, if there are people who are out there who are willing to talk about that publicly and they actually might be compelled to do that whether they want to or not. I don't see how that goes.
- [20:40]
B
Well, I can just tell you there's not a single person I've ever talked to that has shared Rob's narrative. Yeah. Which is, you know, why I ended up doing the story if. If it was 50. 50. Like half the guys said one thing, the other half said another thing. One. That'd be pretty crazy, wouldn't it, that 24 assaulters are on one mission and have two very different stories about the ending. Well, I will say this, that'd be pretty crazy.
- [21:07]
A
And I bet this is. You've experienced this too, because it speaks to everybody having their own experience to a degree. I have been in rooms with people and we do an after action and their version, how they process what happened, and maybe it's because they were looking at it from a different angle. Was slightly different at a micro level, but never at a massive macro level.
- [21:30]
B
Correct. You know, just. Just because it's a. It's a good correlation. You know, I had to do the same thing with the timing, the Tim Kennedy story and with different versions of a story. And you do get that to some degree.
- [21:48]
A
And I think that's natural because people, there's a reason why lie detectors are.
- [21:53]
B
Not allowed in court.
- [21:54]
A
I mean, honestly, it's more of like, are you having an emotional reaction to the question?
- [21:58]
B
Correct.
- [21:59]
A
But people experience the experiences, to use the same word twice, like an idiot that we had. They do process them differently and stress is different. And the. Are you myopic in the moment? Do you have a wider sense? But again, I have never had multiple people in a room where there was anything other than, oh, he did that before that happened, or this happened before that. It was never like, that's not even at all what I saw happen. Never had that experience.
- [22:30]
B
What usually happens, like I said, the. Actually use the Tim Kennedy story because it was, it was a much bigger, broader battlefield. If you, if you would not just a room or a target, that, that convoy was miles long. So what someone saw at one part of the convoy was not what someone was experiencing at the other end of that convoy. So it's, it was a drastic difference. But what I found out was actually the more I heard their different stories and when I pieced them all together, it actually made more sense like of them saying, hey, this is what, oh, I didn't know that was happening there. And then when you zoom out, you go, oh, well, now that, now that we're all talking about it, that's because this is a mile long convoy. The whole convoy wasn't in contact. That's because you were in contact when you weren't. So even when people have two different stories, not talking about at the very like, small, small level, but at a larger level, it actually adds to the story, it connects to the story. It's like a puzzle that it actually, it fits.
- [23:40]
A
Yeah. I don't find that to be the case in the conversations that I have had with people that were there.
- [23:47]
B
Right.
- [23:48]
A
That one seems to be. And again, this is only from the information that I can get from them that the puzzle pieces don't snap together. They don't.
- [23:57]
B
And, and for anyone listening. And the other problem is most people don't know the differences between the stories. And they're like, oh, it's just a different version of the same story. No, it's because you, you haven't, you haven't listened to the story, which is Rob says him and him alone stepped in there one on one in front of ubl, shot his version.
- [24:18]
A
He said he's standing in front of him.
- [24:19]
B
Right. Standing right in front of him. Amalas is, is there using them all as a, as a body shield. And he shoots him in the head twice and then shoots him once on the ground and that he, and he alone takes care of him. Matt Bissonnette story very recently, very recently on Shawn Ryan and in his book says that Red was the point guy who shot him in the stairwell. He was already dead when they, when they ran in there.
- [24:46]
A
Essentially that story is he presented his head out of the room he was in, right?
- [24:50]
B
Correct.
- [24:50]
A
Yeah.
- [24:52]
B
So by the time. And Red followed his shots, and so he was one. Matt Bissonnette was two. I'll leave out the number three guy. And Rob was the fourth guy that went in there and they all put in security shots. That's a drastic different story. One says I and I alone did it with nobody else's help. And the other story was the point man did it and a whole team went in there. Yeah, well, the problem is Amal bin Laden. I don't, I don't usually use a terrorist wife as a, as a key witness. Amal bin Laden said, a team of SEALs came in and killed my husband. The White House came out with a, a correction of the record just a few days after the raid and said there was some stories about Amal bin Laden being a, a human shield. She was not a human shield. The White House themselves said that, which would also make sense because now we have to account with the White House says Amal was shot during this, but she's okay, well then who shot Amal? If you're the only one in this room dealing with it and Amal is right in front of you, and you only shot UBL three times, who, who randomly shot Amal? And there's. Luckily, since this has come out, some other people have come out and, and publicly made some, some statements. The owner of G2 Precision on X came out and was, was on the raid, said, absolutely, Rob did not kill ubl. That's, that's, that's a lie. Chris Fetus, who wasn't on the raid but was part of Seal Team 6 for years, says no one at Seal Team 6 has ever believed or, or has ever really even heard any other story than, than the Red killed him up the stairwells. It just goes on and on and on. So it'd be, it's difficult to understand why he would want this to go to court because I don't, I don't think it's going to bode well for.
- [26:49]
A
Him, you know, for me and you and I, I bet you we agree on this. And this is probably maybe more unique to the community. I don't actually care who Killed Osama bin Laden. I really don't because I know that both of the commands probably actioned multiple times targets where they thought Osama bin Laden was there. And if your squadron was on deployment, guess what, you're getting the rep. And if you weren't on deployment, you're not getting the rep. And that's how the cookie crumbles. If you were the number two guy on the stairs or the number 20 guy on the stairs, I mean, you, I guess you could kind of cheat that. God be pissed if people were trying.
- [27:35]
B
You know what I mean?
- [27:36]
A
Like, that's how you get your ass kicked in the team room. You just ran across that open door, like for sure. So it's possible, but I don't think it's probable. But what I see happening, and I think what the greater effect is going to be, and I will tie this into Tim, because the most common question that I have gotten about Tim, and it isn't about Tim directly, it's about the situation is from people, how do I know who to trust, and things like this, and I'll bring in what's happening. The lawsuit. It muddies the water for everybody and erodes the greater integrity.
- [28:16]
B
It does. I agree, it does.
- [28:18]
A
That's what I care about. I don't care if every single person on that target shot Osama bin Laden, skinned him and wore his skin like a leot. I don't care. Now, I'm not saying you should do that because I believe what I just described is probably multiple violations of the NIEUW convention. And I'm not trying to give anybody ideas. I'm just trying to say, as somebody who spent a little bit of time in that world, I care far more about the integrity that I want those institutions to have than an individual being able to raise their hand and say I was the guy who fired the lethal shots. I don't care.
- [28:55]
B
This, this really is nugget. You know, I'll pull back the curtain for a second that, that I do deal with. I don't, I don't know what's right. Well, I, I say that as far as, like, what, what I've done and what I'm doing, clearly I've made decisions that I've made. So I do believe I know what's right. So let me actually start off by saying that. But it's not as it's looking back, I don't think it's as cut and dry as it is in the moment, because a part of me goes, what if the American people just like to be lied to. Like, who am I?
- [29:39]
A
I will say this.
- [29:40]
B
Who am I? Who am I to.
- [29:42]
A
They prefer the Hollywood version.
- [29:43]
B
A lot of who am I to tear that down. You know, if, if you like being lied to and you're happy being lied to, then.
- [29:52]
A
But do they want.
- [29:52]
B
Then let them believe it. And then, you know, another part of me is like, hey, and I, I do, I see in the comments section all the time. I can't ignore the comment section. And you know, the, you know, this has turned into a big dramatic thing. You know, this is like the view of, of special operations. This is a bunch of high school girls talking about each other.
- [30:12]
A
Yeah.
- [30:13]
B
And obviously from I'll say my perspective, which I know is true, or else I wouldn't have done it. I've been right on, on everything I've done. So another part of me is like, if we don't hold that, if vets don't hold vets accountable, like, where then, then where's, you know, then where does it end? Where's it going to go? It's a, it's a very slippery slope. Then we're just as bad as whoever else that you, that America doesn't.
- [30:41]
A
Yeah.
- [30:42]
B
Like, because they have no integrity. So you're really stuck and you're really, you get put in a, in a corner between exposing the truth and trying to stand for truth for veterans and then looking like, you know, it's a big drama circus and you're consuming your own. And you're consuming your own.
- [31:05]
A
It's one of the problems I had with this statement Rob put out. Essentially he, in my words, not necessarily his directly paraphrasing. I'm doing this because I'm tired of vets tearing down other vets. And like you just said, because people ask me questions all the time about law enforcement and, you know, how do you change culture in law enforcement? Well, it has to come from inside of those departments. They know the training, they know the real world execution. They know the vernacular. And that is the same thing. There's the military, then there's special operations. Then, you know, you can go all the way up that wedding cake to the highest levels. How could anybody else hold those communities accountable if they don't even necessarily know what to look for?
- [31:48]
B
That. And that, that exactly sort of answers the question, you know, to myself as far as, do you do this? Do you not do this? And, and again, we're, it's never, it's never been one of those. This guy said he was on. This guy said he has 300 jumps, does he? I'm gonna go look at his jump record. He's got 250. Time to fire up the podcast studio. Yep. That's ridiculous. You know, we're not.
- [32:14]
A
That'd be a dope episode.
- [32:17]
B
How many jumps you got, Andy?
- [32:19]
A
Like 8,500.
- [32:20]
B
No, give me, give me a jump log.
- [32:21]
A
I haven't logged a jump in 20 plus years. I use my ditters. They keep track of the jumps, man. And then you, like, throw. It's like at some point you have enough jumps to get all the quals and you have a rough idea.
- [32:32]
B
But even that gets subjective because now you're the person who's like, okay, it's my standard of, of, of lies. And, and too much is, is, is too much. And I feel like I'm a person. Like I, I, I run my, myself through that matrix. But yeah, there is a, there is a thing that'd be, that's, that's just petty. But, but I believe the people we've, you know, we've talked about have clearly crossed the line. And even though those negative comments, you know, are there and, and it makes, and, and it keeps me self aware, I can't help but at the end of the day, start thinking, so hold on. You're mad at me more than you're mad at the guy who lied for money and fame and, you know, and basically kept the valor away from the people who actually did it?
- [33:29]
A
I just think who didn't even want.
- [33:31]
B
It, didn't want it. And I think that's just a weird take to have. At the end of the day, that's a weird take for people to have to be more mad at the person telling the truth than the person who lied. And I get a lot of that sometimes.
- [33:44]
A
I think that is tied to whether or not they fell for the first story. No, seriously.
- [33:51]
B
No, you're right.
- [33:52]
A
If there is an attachment to a narrative and it meant something to them, or maybe, maybe it legitimately inspired them.
- [33:59]
B
Right?
- [34:00]
A
Like, maybe a lie changed the trajectory of their life, which is, I would put that in the realm of net positive. If you challenge that motivation, though, they don't want to look at the story. They're going to look at you.
- [34:13]
B
I've had that, I've had that exact thing either in the comments or in an email or a message just recently, actually, and had to do with Tim Kennedy. And they're like, hey, his positive stories and him challenging me to be a man made me a better man. So, yes, I, I believe everything you're you're saying is right. It's been proven. But I, but he's. He's still out there doing good things and I'll always support him for that. And that's. I'm. I don't. In a way, I don't know what to say to that. Like, good. Because that.
- [34:50]
A
Well, two things can be true.
- [34:52]
B
Two things can be true at once. Yeah.
- [34:53]
A
Exceptionally dishonest and also.
- [34:55]
B
Yeah.
- [34:56]
A
An incredible power for good. And I actually think that is why the military probably didn't take a very critical eye earlier.
- [35:08]
B
Really comes down to the root cause of this. It really does come down to the military. The military didn't never approved Tim's book, which is, which is crazy to me.
- [35:19]
A
Did he even submit it for approval? Dino didn't I remove.
- [35:23]
B
That's one way to.
- [35:25]
A
That's one way to not get it approved.
- [35:27]
B
Ask Ms. Annette how that goes.
- [35:30]
A
God. Yeah.
- [35:32]
B
The rob's PNG from the command. So the command did their job to be like, hey, you can't act like this and say these things.
- [35:43]
A
Did Rob submit his book for approval?
- [35:46]
B
He did. He did. But here's the thing with approvals, they don't go, as I'm sure you're aware of, they don't go talking to all the teammates to say, hey, is this.
- [35:57]
A
Book true person who goes through it. Right. And is looking for things that might need to be redacted.
- [36:02]
B
That's right.
- [36:02]
A
They don't have the knowledge to understand the legit accuracy.
- [36:05]
B
Well, they're only there to see if you gave away TTPS secrets, you know, SOPs things that capabilities. That's the only thing they look at it. I know Rob likes it likes to. Likes to parade that around like, well, the DOD approved my book. You can say anything in your book as long as you don't give away, you know, tactics.
- [36:26]
A
And the DOD approved Jack Carr's books too. In their fiction. I mean they're great fiction, but.
- [36:34]
B
But you know, that is, that's, that's ironic. Never thought about it in, in that light. Because even those books can get very realistic very quick.
- [36:42]
A
Like 97% on the nose, like if you know what you're looking for.
- [36:47]
B
Yeah.
- [36:48]
A
You're like, hey, Jack dipshit. We're not supposed to do it.
- [36:52]
B
Right. Because these guys, they do they. Well, I mean Jack's on. On. On the inside, so it's even easier for him.
- [36:57]
A
Yeah.
- [36:58]
B
But Tom Clancy. Tom Clancy wrote some great books, dude.
- [37:02]
A
The government looked into him after the Hunt for Red October.
- [37:04]
B
That's right.
- [37:05]
A
And he basically Took him to the library. Was like, dipshits. It's all right here.
- [37:09]
B
How did you know this?
- [37:11]
A
I read.
- [37:11]
B
Right.
- [37:12]
A
They're like, you guys are not really good at redacting because I'm pulling stuff out of archives and. Yeah, here we are.
- [37:18]
B
Yeah, it's. It's. It. I don't know if you. You know JT's writing a book.
- [37:24]
A
Yes.
- [37:24]
B
A Special Operations.
- [37:26]
A
Yes. JT is a book.
- [37:28]
B
JT is a book. And he showed me that. I was actually quite interested in it. Yeah. Let's. Basically a JSOC version of a. Of a. Of a naval arm. And it's fictional. Yeah, it's.
- [37:43]
A
Again, it's. It's truth adjacent, but intentionally so.
- [37:47]
B
Yeah. We'll have to edit this out here for a second.
- [37:50]
A
There's something I was gonna say along those lines. We don't edit any of this out.
- [37:54]
B
We don't edit any of this out.
- [37:55]
A
I'm just gonna stumble here and. No, we were talking about.
- [38:01]
B
You just told Devin, don't worry. If you come in here, we'll edit it out.
- [38:05]
A
She's like, she's gonna be on.
- [38:09]
B
I love this even more.
- [38:11]
A
Why would you take the time to go back and find that? Just do it live.
- [38:14]
B
You don't have to do a hot tub against me. You're just gonna cut me with a thousand cuts.
- [38:18]
A
Yes. It's revenge. And the person doesn't even know you've had it. Yes.
- [38:25]
B
I should have known.
- [38:26]
A
Yeah. No, man, I. I don't. I don't want to see people tearing each other down, but I don't want to see people not telling the truth either. I always say this. Whatever people want to do with their experiences, I believe you have earned the right to do so. Life is about the choices you make. If you make choices that are going to have consequences, that could cascade and get the eye of the government or attorneys, that's your choice. You know, if you're hoodwinked into that or sold a bill of goods that isn't true. I mean, we can have a conversation about that, but you've earned the right to do what you want to with your experiences. My only issue is when people start flirting with the truth. Truth.
- [39:04]
B
Yeah. You know, I'm. I should probably talk to my lawyer more about what. What I should or shouldn't say, but I don't care, because the. The truth is the truth. And whatever I say here is. Is I'm going to stand by in court as well. I said on my life as well. You know, the first thing you Know, he says, like, let's just move for dismissal. Like that we can just get this dismissed. And I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. And I hate the perception that I believe that that has of. Of me moving up for dismiss. Be like, I don't want it to go to court, because that's just. That's just not true.
- [39:42]
A
I want to see it play out not at the financial cost for yourself, which likely will be robust.
- [39:49]
B
It already. It already is.
- [39:52]
A
And that's. And that's what sucks, because you can have the truth in a shitty lawyer and you might end up losing.
- [39:56]
B
But.
- [39:57]
A
And the reason why I want to see it play itself out is let's put a pin in this thing and then move on. Like, guys, this is 2011. Yeah, let us move past this. But also, in doing so, let's put a pin in the ground. Here is the story.
- [40:16]
B
Yeah.
- [40:16]
A
End of story. Moving on. What side of that did you end up on? The true side of the line or the Kennedy side of the line?
- [40:27]
B
But you're right, unfortunately. You know, when I. When I did, you know, all my research for my original episode of Rob, I got to talk to a lot of guys that were more than willing to talk to a Delta Force guy, believing that they would, you know, that would not do them wrong and. And release their names, which I never have and never will.
- [40:49]
A
But that's where it'll get interesting in the court proceedings.
- [40:53]
B
Rob has now forced this into making people who did want to be quite. They wanted. And. And for them, it's a. It's a hard line to walk. Right. They want to be quite professionals, but they also can't stand what's going on. Yeah. So they're more than willing to call me and, you know, tell me what happened, but not attach their name to it. And. And I'm fine with that. I'll. I'll take your heat rounds. And, you know, I say that jokingly, but also, you know, truthfully, but if. If. And when this goes to court, they're. They're gonna have to come out, you know, on stand. And. And I hate that, to be honest with you. I hate that. But I feel like. But I'm not the one. I'm not. I'm not the one who. Who brought this lawsuit on.
- [41:37]
A
I feel like the military will get involved before then. I don't know how, but I feel like either the government or the military will not allow that particular step to happen.
- [41:47]
B
That part is interesting. Like, it really is. This is going to be A wild ride. Because this. And in some aspects, it's. It's unprecedented. Yeah. And so I don't think anyone really knows how it's going to play with the next steps because no one's ever had to do this before. So. Man, wish me luck.
- [42:07]
A
Good luck.
- [42:08]
B
Or cut me a check. That's.
- [42:10]
A
We can just.
- [42:11]
B
Luck. Okay. All right. Just luck. I'll take the luck. On. On other news we talked about a little bit before this, and, you know, we talk about Mogadishu. Yep.
- [42:24]
A
Well, today is the birthday of.
- [42:26]
B
Today is the birthday of. Of the Delta Force.
- [42:29]
A
48 years. God, they're old.
- [42:34]
B
Yeah, they're.
- [42:36]
A
I was thinking about this because, you know, I never. You and I have never talked about this on my side of the house. In the Navy, right. Every SEAL goes through buds. It's officer and enlisted side by side. When I. I had heard it was interesting when I. I joined the Navy and I went to a school, which is your NEC in the Navy or MOS in the Army. It was on the damn neck. Navy base. Operation specialist, radar scope operator. I did not know what was on the north end of the compound. You'd hear some explosions and gunfire. Like, that's weird, I guess. I had a shore patrol. I had no idea.
- [43:07]
B
Right.
- [43:09]
A
Got to my first team, and there were two guys in my first platoon who were prepping to go to selection. And that was really the first time I had kind of heard. I'm sure I had read the Marcinko books, but I didn't. I didn't really have a conceptual understanding. And basically, the Navy releases a message when I screen twice a year. Hey, we. This is. If you want to go to this place, we're going to do the screening here. Put your package in. This is what it's going to entail. How does it work in the Army? How do guys find out about the unit and then how do you find yourself actually trying out for it?
- [43:42]
B
That's. That's a good question because you guys.
- [43:45]
A
Pull from all branches. The Navy is. You're like, you're in the community and it's. They just. It's a fucking email on.
- [43:52]
B
It's. It's been 15, 16, 17 years since I had to look into that. So I'm sure what I'm about to say is a little bit outdated. But I do know now there are. There are SMU recruiters that go around to every base and give a pitch. So they. They do have recruiters that go around. So if. If you know what you're looking for. And you know what Special Missions unit stands for? You can go to those for me.
- [44:25]
A
Whether you're solving murders during breakfast, cracking.
- [44:28]
B
Cold cases on your commute, or playing amateur detective at bedtime.
- [44:32]
A
Amazon Music's got millions of podcast episodes waiting. Just download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts ad free included with Prime.
- [44:44]
B
Gosh, I really gotta think about this. I got a hold of, of a recruiter.
- [44:48]
A
Because you were Green Beret first, right? I was okay.
- [44:50]
B
Yeah. I had to actively. I had to actively find the recruiter. I'm trying to remember how I got a hold. No, I. I do know. I do know how I got a hold. There was a guy before me that went to selection and didn't pass.
- [45:05]
A
I was just gonna ask you what happens to those guys because I.
- [45:08]
B
What.
- [45:10]
A
Especially on the west coast, if you went to Green team is what it was called. I think they call it S and T now. And didn't make it, you were never heard from again. You were like a Yuma free fall jump master or strap into an sdv. Okay, so there was so little gouge coming back. There was no beta.
- [45:28]
B
But here's what's ironic about it. Those before, I'll call it my generation of sorts, my spirit, my specific SF company had the highest, for several years, had the highest go rate of, of selection, which was just an anomaly. Yeah. Before me and Bob Keller got picked up, no one had gotten picked up from our company in a decade or more. The only, the only people we knew of were people who win the selection, did not make selection and came back.
- [46:06]
A
Were they allowed to talk about their experience or were they told to keep a tight lip?
- [46:09]
B
They were told to keep it tight lip. But of course, when they get back to the unit, they can do whatever they want. Yeah, but those guys kept it tight lipped. So even though we had two or three guys in my unit who had been in selection over the past, you know, different times for the past five, seven years, none of them talked about it. None of them talked about it. I had no idea what, what I was getting into. I did read the book Inside Delta Force by, by Eric Haney, who, Who said way too much. But, but even that book isn't necessarily, I want to say, I'm not saying it's inaccurate, but you know, it's. It's not, it's not the end all be all. I mean, it's. That's not. There's no replacement for, for going to it and living it every day. So yeah, it Is it is a black hole of information. And that's a good thing. Like anything else that I never wanted information I don't think from any school I went to other than some, some generalities.
- [47:08]
A
Yeah.
- [47:08]
B
I never thought G2ing a school was. Was ever good for anyone. They'll tell you exactly what you need to know when you get there.
- [47:15]
A
Usually on the first day.
- [47:16]
B
Just apply that. And if you give me too much information, I'll either work this up in my head as something bigger than it really is or maybe I'll focus on one thing. You know way too hard thinking that that's the big test when it's not. So I never really wanted information before going to any school outside of dive school which the only thing I wanted to know was the standards so I could try to meet them before I went there.
- [47:42]
A
Yeah, that's fair.
- [47:42]
B
But I didn't ask like the weight belt swim and breath holds and 50 meter underwater. Like things that are just straightforward. But I never asked about the day to day life and the smoking sessions and, and, or any, any like real granular detail of die school.
- [47:56]
A
The only beta I really had from guys. Well actually let me ask you this first. For the people who didn't make it were. Was it viewed as positive, negative or just neutral?
- [48:08]
B
Never negative. There's no way, especially in the Green Beret community that that you. We would ever look down on a guy for wanting to go to the big leagues.
- [48:17]
A
Are they allowed to go back? Probably depends on the person.
- [48:21]
B
Depends on the person. Yep. Depends on. On what happened. And the person.
- [48:24]
A
Same on the blue side too.
- [48:26]
B
Some can. Some. Some can't. I'm glad some can. Took me two tries.
- [48:30]
A
Yeah.
- [48:31]
B
Although I say my first one was a recce and I really went after it the second time.
- [48:35]
A
I mean of course that's just smart.
- [48:36]
B
That's what I, that's what I tell myself.
- [48:37]
A
It's just smart.
- [48:38]
B
I never failed at anything.
- [48:41]
A
Take it easy, Tim. So the only beta I really had on selection was they. They're like, thank God they run so much. There's this guy, if he throws a dip in it's going to be a minimum of 10 miles. So I ran so much I think I wish I had a picture of my badge. I looked like a skeleton. I was probably like 190. And legitimately that individual who shall remain nameless, he was running selection for a couple years. Guess what year he switched out with. The year that I went through. We ran twice. So be careful. The beta you get, it's got an Expiration date.
- [49:25]
B
It does, man. There's another really good. Speaking of. I had a teammate go to dive school right after I went to the unit and I called back to check on him like, hey, he make dive school everything good. And he was mad at us, the dive team, for not telling him about the rescue swimmer event. And it's like you guys never told me about that event. I was like, well, never. No one ever told me about that event either. I don't know.
- [49:55]
A
Also, some of this is about being able to figure it out.
- [49:57]
B
Right. One of them.
- [49:58]
A
I mean, I describe special operations as non linear problem solving. Guess what? Not everybody.
- [50:05]
B
Yeah.
- [50:05]
A
Can solve problems either linear or non.
- [50:09]
B
Yeah.
- [50:09]
A
Because we have retards among us. Most of the time I'm in that group. Narrow set of things where I can like bing, bing, bing, bing.
- [50:20]
B
I always say we have. We work with less retards. Yeah. You never.
- [50:24]
A
Well, they have better matching outfits.
- [50:26]
B
Yeah, that's right. You never get rid of them.
- [50:27]
A
Our short bus there's just had rotors for sure.
- [50:31]
B
There's dirt bags in every unit. There's retards in every unit. You're just. You're just looking to. You're just looking to work with less of them.
- [50:37]
A
Did you ever sit there and just ask yourself or think if people really knew how we were and how ridiculous we think is, like they would never let us actually do this job?
- [50:52]
B
All the time. I do. I think about that all the time. Yeah.
- [50:57]
A
Like, how are we able to do this? Why do they trust us to do this? What have we ever done that has earned the trust that we are being asked to do this?
- [51:06]
B
I'll tell this story that probably shouldn't because.
- [51:09]
A
Tell me more.
- [51:10]
B
I'd like. I'd like to keep this facade up of professionalism.
- [51:14]
A
Oh, don't worry. I probably got five for everyone that you're willing to tell.
- [51:16]
B
But yeah. And hey. And the guys are as professional as can be when planning a mission. When getting on the. There's no room for jackassery during the planning phase, during the infill, and during the actions on. But as soon as target secure. I already know where you're going with this version. That's about as long as the boys can hold it together. And we were. We were in Iraq and I. And I found this. I found this sword and. And I was ssing this room and I basically hid in this room waiting for someone to walk in the room. And as soon as I walked in, I flung open the closet door and I charged him with the SWORD went, aha.
- [51:59]
A
You're gonna get shot.
- [52:05]
B
Why would you do that? Which was exactly the. The question I got from. From the assaulter.
- [52:11]
A
Yeah, what's.
- [52:12]
B
What is wrong with you?
- [52:12]
A
Yeah, like what? In the actual.
- [52:15]
B
Okay, by far, not the worst thing that I've done on target, unfortunately, or the. Or the worst thing I've seen, but just the shenanigan. I got. I got called up one time by name. Brent, what are you doing? I'm doing something, but you need me. Yeah, I need you up here right now. Run upstairs as fast as I can go. And I go to the bedroom, and this guy's trying on all the different robes, and he's like, do you like this one or do you like this one?
- [52:40]
A
Meanwhile, tier one JSOC unit, probably millions of dollars per target, and all of the hardware moving around, and you're having a fashion show.
- [52:47]
B
What are we doing for. For. I won't say if that was SF or. Or tier one. We'll just leave. We'll just leave it as. Let people wonder. But it was definitely both within special operations that spanned my whole career, that. Of that type of. But the.
- [53:06]
A
My first Iraq deployment, we haven't called target secure. And I turn around, and I have to leave the rank out of this because it would identify the individual. There is a man dressed very similar to me who was, I thought, there to do the same job as me, carrying a massive bust of Saddam Hussein's face down a hallway. Like, what are you doing? He's like, this thing is amazing. I really want this. We're not targeting, like, we're like, I'm getting the flavor that we're going to be okay because this is probably a.
- [53:44]
B
Dry hole, but also.
- [53:47]
A
Come on, man.
- [53:48]
B
Yeah. We're not target security until the ref.
- [53:50]
A
Blows the whistle and the play is over. And then you can. You can fool around, right?
- [53:55]
B
Oh, gosh. But. But as. As a stark difference to the end of my career, which I wasn't doing shenanigans at target Secure. Yeah, we were. We were walking in to Target, and as soon as start secure was. I was moving couches out of the way so I could lay down on the ground and stretch out my back so I could. So I could. So I could. So I could walk back to the trucks. I'm like, what. What a. What a difference the beginning of an ending of a career makes. Like, I don't.
- [54:25]
A
It's a rough road, man. It's the combination of physical and psychological burden. And again, I. Honestly, man, I. I say this every time. I had such an average career and I look at people who. What you're talking about 14, 15, 16 deployments. I don't know how you do that. And you're not broken.
- [54:47]
B
That, that is truly what I hated to some degree. By the end of my career. Guys that I had started my career at a tier one unit with, they were the funniest dudes I've. I've ever met. Happy guys, funny dudes and you know, they're team leaders now and they're just, they're. They're angry, serious men. Like what. What happened to you? And don't get me wrong, I'm sure to some degree that you know that happened to me too. I don't feel that it happened to a complete degree that it happened to other guys too because of course it changes you.
- [55:21]
A
Do you think you can come back from it?
- [55:23]
B
Absolutely. Because post retirement I've reached out to all those guys. I'll just leave the guy's name as Dave who started out with just smile on his face. Happy guy. End of his career, just an angry, stressed out. Was a stressed out but just angry serious. Just not the same Dave. Yeah. And now years later I call him and I'm like, Dave's back. You know, as soon as he picks up the phone, like, yeah, Dave's. Dave's back, he's happy again.
- [55:51]
A
How could you be the same person during that?
- [55:54]
B
The, the stress of perf. Really it is, it's the stress of perfection that is not required of you. It necessarily, but it's asked of you. It's asked of you every day. No fail missions are a lot of. It's stress you put on yourselves and on top of the stress that's put on you from, from everyone above you. Yeah, it's. It will, it'll. It'll get the best of you. It'll change. It'll change everyone to some degree. Like I said, how could it not?
- [56:27]
A
I think it's supposed to.
- [56:29]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [56:31]
A
Think about it. From the. And again, I've got, I've got now 13, almost 13 years out. I have thought a lot about the time that I spent when I was in and war and the experiences and the exposure.
- [56:47]
B
I.
- [56:48]
A
The. Well, I think it's safe to say that the occupation is unique from the just demands of what you're expected and asked to do. If that, that doesn't change you.
- [57:01]
B
Yeah.
- [57:02]
A
I think you might have been broken coming in.
- [57:05]
B
I. Right, right. Something's wrong with you.
- [57:08]
A
Well, if you're a sociopath or a psychopath, you're just like flatline for anybody else. Whatever your term normal is, spend enough time in that pool and your fingers are going to be a little bit pruning.
- [57:19]
B
Right. I, I didn't, I did feel the, the pressure to some degrees of Green Beret, you know, and on the white side to, to be better than people. You know, I don't mean that in a bad way. Yeah. You know, what was expected of you. Right. But never. It doesn't even compare to, to the Tier one life. It just, it's just apples and oranges. And I think, I won't say travesty, but it is to some degree how little people understand the difference between, you know, white side soft and, and, and tier one units. You know, we get asked a question, it's like, oh, is that, you know, is that like a Green Beret? Is that like, is that like a Ranger? Is that like a seal?
- [58:05]
A
You know, the best answer. Yeah.
- [58:07]
B
Yes.
- [58:08]
A
Next question.
- [58:10]
B
Right?
- [58:10]
A
It's the shorter answer.
- [58:12]
B
It is. I usually don't have time to sit there and give them a dissertation on the, on the different levels of U.S. army or U.S. military special operations, but people have no idea this, the drastic difference between one level to the next.
- [58:28]
A
I think it has an expiration date. I think everybody, regardless of how psychologically and physically tough you are, that candle burns so bright. I think at some point they all go out.
- [58:42]
B
Do you. Do you guys. I feel like that's army specific of sorts. I say are not even a special operation because the seals are. And this isn't even a joke, tongue in cheek or anything like that. The seals brand are so well known.
- [58:55]
A
I don't think that's a good thing though.
- [58:56]
B
It's. I don't think it's a bad thing as well.
- [59:00]
A
It's partially the community's fault, but it's also partially outside of that control when you have politicians Saying Seal Team 6 just executed a raid and a bada bot like excuse me.
- [59:14]
B
What, what I mean is more along the line of I'm not against people writing books and doing movies. I, I think they should like the stories should be, should be told. You know, the horse soldiers or you know, 12 strong. Like that movie should be. Should be told. You know, what was the last movie that came out the, the seals that were in Iraq hold up Warfare. Yeah. The stories should be told. So I think, I think the people knowing who the seals are are great in general like the general thing of the seals because it gives young men something to. And boys something to look up to. And aspire to.
- [59:55]
A
Same thing can be said of the unit, but they don't do that. Even though there was a TV show.
- [60:00]
B
There was a TV show. I don't know how much recruiting we got off of that.
- [60:05]
A
It was pre gwad. It was too early. You guys didn't time that one right. That would have banged in, like, 2003 to 2008. People would have been just showing up, trying to, like, make entry into the compound.
- [60:15]
B
And. And that's where I. I disagree. Where. Where recruiting. The recruiting line falls because we'll recruit from a strong. From a strong Special operations base.
- [60:27]
A
Yeah.
- [60:28]
B
They can't come straight to us anyway, you know, so we'll recruit from there. So as long as their recruiting is good, then. Then we'll have good recruiting. They'll figure out. They'll figure. They'll figure out. But the question was more or less, if I ever tell anyone I'm a Green Beret, which is, you know, usually my go to. If I even say that, and I usually get. Is that like a Navy seal? Do you ever tell anyone that you're a Navy SEAL and ever get the. Is that like a Green Beret? I feel like it doesn't go hand in hand.
- [60:56]
A
It shouldn't. Because we're better inherently.
- [61:00]
B
We lost the upper hand after John Wayne and we never regained it.
- [61:04]
A
No. You know what? I 100% don't lead with SEAL anything. I try not to. I want it to be something I did, not something I'm. That I always was because I wasn't. I get. They'll say, oh, that's awesome that you were in Special Forces. And I actually like. No. I'm like, listen.
- [61:21]
B
Right.
- [61:21]
A
That is the most common one. I'm like, special Forces means Green Beret. I was a part of the special operations community, of which Special Forces is under that umbrella now. It is for better or worse. People kind of know what it is. And I do think, though it flirts a little bit with. It is so promoted. And so I don't want to say revered, because that's not. That's not the right word. It is so elevated that I think it risks people wanting to do it for the wrong.
- [61:53]
B
For the wrong reasons.
- [61:55]
A
I don't have any data to support that that is necessarily the case, but that is, I guess, an internal concern that I have.
- [62:01]
B
You know, maybe. Maybe a bad parallel. But Top Gunn was one of the biggest recruiters of fighter pilots for the military. That. How could it not be? I know. It almost got me. Years later, the.
- [62:20]
A
I have the Grades for the Naval Academy, I was out.
- [62:22]
B
Yeah, but I don't think we, I don't, I don't think in the, in the 90s and even into the early 2000s, which would have been the, the Top Gun recru to generation, that we had bad ballots. In fact, I think we had great pilots. So I think if you, if you're going there for the wrong reasons, that's what the selection process is there to do. Because the wrong reasons won't. Won't keep you in those cold waters for too long.
- [62:44]
A
Now, if you're there for the book deal that you think you're going to sign.
- [62:47]
B
Yeah, that's, that's a long ways away.
- [62:49]
A
Yeah, no, we assign publishers in second phase. You got to at least make it through hell week. And then you get a hair gel sponsor and a publisher, obviously.
- [62:57]
B
Obviously.
- [62:58]
A
You know, Top Gun, though, was a one off until of course, Deuce came out Top Gun 2, which I'm sure got military support for exactly the same reason. Because it's. People watch that and they go, holy cow, I want to do that. You know, there was the Navy SEALS movie, which I mistakenly thought was a documentary younger in my life. But then there was more movies and.
- [63:18]
B
More movies with Charlie, Charlie Sheik. Yeah, yeah, another great one. Yeah, another great one.
- [63:23]
A
But there's more movies and more books and a tv. You know, at some point the cart starts outstripping the horse, and I just, I don't know where it goes.
- [63:32]
B
Well, who else do you want them to make TV shows? Here's, here's the, here's the, the opposite side of that, of, you know, of that conversation. If they're not making them about great Americans, good guys versus bad guys, good versus evil, who they gonna make it about?
- [63:49]
A
And that's, that's fair. I guess what I'm saying is I wish, and people may not believe me when I say this, I wish the love got aggregated more. Because let me tell you right now, SEAL community, and I can speak for the time that I was in, we didn't win the G Wad, dude. I was a spoke on a wheel that had hundreds of spokes. And I wish that, and I know this will never happen, but I wish that the mechanic that kept the Blackhawks or the little birds or the Chinooks or even the frickin C5s, the globemasters that got that stuff overseas with it, and all of the thousands upon thousands of people that make the little tip of the spear even capable of doing their job. I wish they got the Same amount of love because it's unfair to point it at the shiny object. Because guess what? We couldn't do our job without them.
- [64:42]
B
We had a. We had a. Oh, man, he's gonna get mad at me for screwing this up. Believe he was a pj. He might have been a cct, but I believe. You better know he's gonna get pissed. I believe that's why I'm not gonna say his name. But. But this next part. Well, he'll know who he is. When we were going through his. His career, he was a Mortuary affairs person. And during the. During the surge of Iraq, his job would. To take in 3, 4, 5, 10, 12 bodies a day and him and his team and prep all those bodies coming in. I can't remember the airport that they came in in Baltimore, Dover. And I was like, man, we ended up talking about that for probably just as long as his special operations, because I had questions. Oh, did I have questions. I even think about that. Like, the guys behind the scenes, we're having to process all these dead Americans every day.
- [65:39]
A
I couldn't do that job.
- [65:40]
B
Day in, day out, the bodies just don't stop coming. And it's just that that story was. Was crazy. It was fascinating to me. I don't. I don't know if I could do that job either, but I am trying to do a better job. You know, on. On this podcast, the. You know, the Tier one podcast that I started have. We have Marine coming on that was that fought in Ramadi. We have an 82nd guy coming on, and. And. And we get these messages. So I only did two tours, but I did them. Yeah. One Afghanistan went. Come on. Yeah. I don't. I do. I don't say feel bad. I don't know. The right term is the. I think the warfighter. I'm not saying the mechanic doesn't deserve his. His, you know, his due. It's different. But the people who actually are on the front lines and have a higher risk of death do deserve a little bit more credit. And that's just a fact of life.
- [66:42]
A
I just hope that it's never forgotten that the sharp edge of the blade is supported by every other piece of metal that's in that blade, too.
- [66:50]
B
I don't know how to say this right without offending anyone, as if I don't appreciate everyone's service, because I absolutely do.
- [66:57]
A
Just come out with it. It sounds like you don't appreciate Michael. Make a clip out of that. But try to dub that onto his.
- [67:05]
B
I can do that. But yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm trying to do a, you know, a better job of, of getting the, the infantry. The Marines. Yeah. The grunts and get their stories out because those guys have stories too. And why it gets eclipses by special operations, I don't know. And, and you know as well as I do it looks different.
- [67:30]
A
It. Yeah, it's a different experience and I hate it.
- [67:33]
B
The, and I hate to talk about views and you know, and subscribers, but that's, but it's, it's a business now and I know for a fact his story can be just as good as, as a Navy SEAL story.
- [67:45]
A
The numbers will be different and then.
- [67:46]
B
And the alls I have to do is put Navy SEAL and the title of this and it'll, it'll get three times the amount of views. And that's, that's just a fact.
- [67:55]
A
Just do with every guess.
- [67:56]
B
But. Oh, almost, Almost Navy Seal 82nd. Just as long as it's in there.
- [68:03]
A
I mean we're real time problem solving right now.
- [68:05]
B
Yeah.
- [68:05]
A
We're putting metrics.
- [68:08]
B
They'll find out when it's too late. They'll find out when it's too late. Once they're in the episode. They'll find out when it's too late.
- [68:14]
A
What was your mental calculus like, your thought process and what got you over the decision to actually do a podcast when you first started doing this to begin with with? Because again, it's a little, I was going to say it's a little bit anti to the command you came from, but I actually think it's a lot anti.
- [68:30]
B
It's. Oh, it's, it's, it's very anti. That's a great question and it won't be the, the, the standard answer. I had a. On the verge of failing business with First Responder Coffee company that we eventually, you know, then did First Spawner Cigar Company and First Spawner Cast Company with Bourbon. We were hustling. God, we were. And as a Business sucked. Business sucks.
- [69:00]
A
I'm waiting every day to wake up as an overnight 10 year success.
- [69:05]
B
I showed up to work every day knowing that the Runway was getting smaller and if we don't have better sales than some people who trusted me and left jobs and they were depending on a paycheck that I said I would provide was going to dry up. And that job that they left is no longer there for him. The job market wasn't great. And in 2022 when, when we started this business, it weighed heavily on me and my brother who also Works for me, you know, now, now that we're doing okay, Will look at me like, man, I eventually told him like all these numbers, like, I don't know how you showed up to work every day. He's like, I never do it. I never knew that we were, that we were going under.
- [69:46]
A
That's the more common business story, the overnight ten year success. I mean, I'm in it with the coffee shop. We've been open for almost three years. I have 40 employees working for me at ages that average around 19.
- [69:59]
B
Yeah.
- [69:59]
A
I want to talk about a leadership challenge to be thankful we didn't serve with 18 and 19 year old women. I am thankful for a variety of reasons. Pulling aside the dynamic between men and women. Yeah, it's a whole different language. Thankfully I have a 17 year old daughter, teaches me how to communicate with them.
- [70:16]
B
User is a terp. Oh, God.
- [70:18]
A
She teaches me new things every day. Like, what does that mean? How should I use that? Mostly because I just want to mess with the staff. I'll throw it out there. And they're like, what?
- [70:25]
B
It's not a big deal.
- [70:26]
A
I'm constantly listening and picking things up. Dude, business is a grind.
- [70:30]
B
It's a grind. I was such a grind. So I had done a. I was a guest. So I started going on podcasts as a guest.
- [70:40]
A
Were you hesitant before you did it the first time?
- [70:42]
B
Yeah, I was. But it was one of those things like, hey, if I don't, I need marketing. Yeah, I need marketing. And we don't. And we're losing money every month and I don't have money. And the money I did have for marketing, I lost all. I didn't get a bit of return on my investment in marketing. So I was like, well, I gotta.
- [71:01]
A
I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you.
- [71:03]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. I didn't take like that at all. I knew where that laugh came from.
- [71:09]
A
Yep.
- [71:09]
B
So I started going on podcasts and basically. Hey, so at the end of the podcast, you know, as long as I can, you know, talk about, you know, FRCC and our goal. And what's even worse is our Runway is getting shorter and we're still giving to first responders because I said that's what we were gonna do.
- [71:24]
A
Yeah.
- [71:25]
B
And so we're donating to things and losing money every month. So I started going on my money. It's too long. Restore. I started going on podcast. I went on the Anti Hero podcast as a guest. And then Tyler asked me, he goes, hey, would you, would. Would you want to be a co host of this and we'll split this 50 50. And I was like, I don't have a lot of time. I'm really trying to make sure this business doesn't go under. Absolutely. But I can't help with any of the editing. There's not. I mean, I, I can, I mean, I'll show up prepared, but if, but that's just be honest with you about what I, what I, what I can give here. I'll show up prepared. And that's the extent of what I can do for you. And he goes, sure. And then one, my other thing was, I don't want this to be a special operations centric podcast. You know, my whole business is giving back to first responders. Yes, I will use special operations. Sounds kind of bad, but this is in order to prop up, to gain an audience to tell first responder stories. Because that's very true. That's the truth of the matter.
- [72:22]
A
Yeah, your earned experience that you get to do with what you want and that everybody who has those experiences, special operations or not, do with them what you want.
- [72:31]
B
And it worked. We've had firefighters on swat, cops on everyone in between. And I believe doing that using special operations. I still really enjoy the special operations episode. Can't pretend like I didn't. But I really think it helped bring more of an audience to the first responder stories and ended up helping with the business a lot. So that's how I got in the podcast space.
- [73:01]
A
People will crucify me if I don't ask you why you left the anti hero podcast. So you can answer that in the broadest terms that you want to precise or whatever you want.
- [73:11]
B
It became a business. It did. It went from something that was just kind of free marketing and was working and then it became a business and it became a lot less fun when, when it was a business. And you have sponsors that you have to, that you have to appease and you know, and then you have ideas of what this business is going to do next. And you know, it was just two friends, you know, doing a podcast thing and now you're cast into this. Now it's two business partners doing this. And we just had, we just had different ideas of, of, of business wise, where certain things should go, how certain things should be presented. And it doesn't make his, his opinion on where we're supposed to go wrong. Doesn't. Doesn't make mine right. But at some point, you know, we just kept, I say, butting heads as if it was like a Like a. Which is a constant strain. But it. It just became enough. I was like, I think it'd just be easier if. If I did my own thing. And. And, you know, I. I feel like I. I helped build this up for him. So I'm not. I'm not not leaving it. I'm leaving it better than I found it. And. And I can. I can go do my own thing and. And make all the bad decisions all on my own.
- [74:30]
A
And you get to look in the mirror like, who did that? Oh, hello there, man. I see like, morning brushing my teeth.
- [74:38]
B
Like, accidentally delete an episode that was.
- [74:41]
A
Are you able to resolve this?
- [74:44]
B
I'm working on it still.
- [74:45]
A
Have you seen the movie Zoolander Files? Do you understand that reference, Michael?
- [74:51]
B
Yes. I love.
- [74:53]
A
He gets like 1 out of 100. Tucker hasn't seen the Boondock Saints.
- [74:58]
B
What?
- [74:58]
A
I know.
- [74:59]
B
I've seen New Lander, though, so he's. He's playing his flag there.
- [75:05]
A
You see how he says that with the conviction, as if that justifies not seeing anything.
- [75:11]
B
That is. Yeah.
- [75:12]
A
Boondock Saints. How do you plan to. The sponsorship one is, it's an interesting thing. I didn't have a sponsor on the show for the first couple years. I didn't realize that it actually was something that was connected to it because I got into this off of the suggestion of somebody else. The monetization aspect of what I thought of it. I actually didn't think. I got a random email one day. This is actually how it started. Hey, I represent a brand that basically sits in between other brands and we sell ads. Would you be interested? And I said, I mean, maybe. Tell me how this works. And I don't know if you know, the threshold then I think was 10,000 downloads per episode. If you get to that point, they had to explain to me what CPM is, which for people listening is cost per melee. It's a number that you multiply against your downloads, which will net the amount of money that you get paid. An ad broker will generally take 20 to 30%, depending on who they are. They pitch you ads and you can say yes or no. And it was. It was very interesting. I didn't think it was something that you could make money off. When I first got into it. And now it's. It's a part. I mean, it turns the lights on and off. Right. It buys the microphones. But it is something you have to manage. I'm curious your thoughts on how you're going to do it.
- [76:25]
B
That's one thing that drives me crazy. We do have sponsors and every now and again be like well this show has sponsors. I didn't come here to listen to advertisements.
- [76:38]
A
It is industry standard though. So I think people are, whether it's bad or good, they are habituated to or used to at least or conditioned to hearing the advertisements. And let me tell you what the average consumer reaction is when they hear it. It's the same as ours. They look for that little button that says just get 30 seconds. Yeah. And they hit it.
- [76:59]
B
Just push forward. It's for some people, it's not for others. Yes, I am surprised to some degree. You know sponsors are real happy with us the amount of people who do buy, you know, off off those sponsors. I'm also, I'm also picky about you know our, our sponsors and make sure they, they align with, with with our clientele.
- [77:18]
A
Same here.
- [77:19]
B
You know, cloud defensive with with Tac Lights. I'm a huge fan of Tac Lights. You go down the list of. But everyone that I have is someone that I want, you know that tasty gains. I, I take their gummies.
- [77:33]
A
Yeah.
- [77:34]
B
I think creatine is some everyone should take. So they're, they're all things that are that are I feel like is appropriate.
- [77:40]
A
But it can be tactfully done as well.
- [77:42]
B
But I don't. I mean who's you should you just expect me to put a 15, $20,000 podcast studio up and pay a producer and pay a marketing girl and fly people in and just all on my own dime for your entertainment?
- [78:00]
A
Sounds reasonable. Yes, Brent, I'd like you to do that. That's what I'm saying. These lights, this studio space that we're in every month. Shockingly enough there's somebody who says we would like our check now and I would like to be able to pay them because I actually love doing this.
- [78:17]
B
I, I do, I do enjoy doing it.
- [78:19]
A
Isn't it fun to just sit there and talk to people about that interests them? I love it. I have learned so much. I get you and I met doing a podcast.
- [78:28]
B
Yep, sure did.
- [78:29]
A
People like Andy would never come on after you did that episode about Tim. I was like when are we doing this first off? That's the number one way to get me to do something. Never do it.
- [78:38]
B
He'll never drive a car at a 2.4 hours of LA mullet.
- [78:42]
A
I don't know if people know this this not that big of a deal. We don't have to celebrate it but I'm kind of a race car driver. I didn't know you Were there?
- [78:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah. If you guys don't know, I caught wind that Andy was in Florida doing this gig as a race car driver.
- [78:56]
A
Where was I in relationship to? Where I came for your podcast. I. I know the geography, like, an.
- [79:01]
B
Hour and a half. Like, you were, like, Orlando, and you're like, an hour and a half south.
- [79:06]
A
When you text me, like, if you ever come to Florida again and don't let me know the relationship's over, I'm like, I didn't even know where I was in Florida. Yeah.
- [79:12]
B
Yeah. And, yeah. And I knew he couldn't hear me, but every time I went around, I yelled, go, Navy. Yeah, that earplugs. And you couldn't hear anything over those race cars.
- [79:22]
A
And there was a race director talking in your ear as well.
- [79:24]
B
Oh, was there really?
- [79:25]
A
So every time, it was really cool. I'm glad I got to do it. I think we're gonna go back in 2026.
- [79:31]
B
Okay.
- [79:32]
A
It is based. It's.
- [79:33]
B
So I want to be part of your pit crew. Yeah. Well, I know there's no pit crew, but. But you have to have a.
- [79:38]
A
Of course you'll be part of the cheering squad.
- [79:41]
B
Yes.
- [79:42]
A
Pit crew. Pit crew sounds good.
- [79:43]
B
Pipeman. Yeah.
- [79:44]
A
Matching outfits.
- [79:45]
B
Of course.
- [79:45]
A
Of course. Of course. But. So Cletus McFarland. I got to get him on the show sometime, too. What a total goofball. Love the. He seems. He seems to be resoundingly just loved. He just seems like an awesome dude. So he owns the Freedom Factory, which is a phenomenal name. I think that's a grass Runway. As you drive in, he has this track, and it's, you know, the 24 hours of Le Mans, which is not what we did.
- [80:11]
B
That race is 2.4 hours.
- [80:13]
A
We did the 2.4 hours of mullets. Yeah, but that's what it's based upon. Yes. Right. This was probably the Van Prix.
- [80:21]
B
Yeah.
- [80:22]
A
It's not the Grand Prix. The Van Prix.
- [80:24]
B
I know.
- [80:24]
A
So, Michael, pause this for a second. I was telling you this on the way over. So when I was debuting as a professional race car driver, Not a big deal feel. We had a roll cage. I'm like, full on metal driving seat, five point harness. The little net thing that goes. Which I don't know what that is supposed to do. Maybe it's supposed to keep you in or glass out. I don't know what it was. I was just thinking, like, if I start on fire, how quickly can I get out of this hans device which is over your shoulders, and then it clips into Your helmet. So limited range of motion, so you got to have your mirrors. We had nitrous in those cars. My driver. Yeah, I didn't touch it.
- [81:00]
B
Yeah. I didn't think that. I don't know when you could.
- [81:03]
A
All those convicts had nitrous.
- [81:05]
B
Yeah. That straightaway wasn't really long.
- [81:08]
A
Bucky was like, if you want to go ahead, give it a. Give it a little. I was like, bucky, I'm saving the nitrous for you.
- [81:13]
B
Yeah.
- [81:14]
A
But I did use the air horn because that was dope. They all had three horns. And I would go around where Leah wasn't back.
- [81:21]
B
Yeah.
- [81:21]
A
But anyway, so I'm fully head to toe. Racing shoes, gloves, suit, helm, everything, like, relatively fire resistant. And these guys had helmets on. And they're driving minivans with just the crossbody seat belt and a normal seat. That's it.
- [81:41]
B
No roll cage.
- [81:42]
A
So. No, no. So now you can hit this. This is.
- [81:47]
B
Let me get some volume.
- [81:49]
A
Yeah. And the end of it. I would switch. I go to like the first 15 minute mark.
- [81:55]
B
I don't know if this is all of the. The.
- [81:58]
A
The race was. Oh, actually go back. You know what we're looking for. Today's episode is brought to you by Element, oftentimes spelled lmnt, just like you can see here on the box. But said Element. What is it? It's an electrolyte drink mix. I just got back from Costa Rica. 10 days of doing jiu jitsu in an environment that is a lot hotter than where I live in Montana. I was averaging three of these per day just to feel like a normal human being being. What is in these things? 1,000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium. Now, you can get this another way because this comes in the very convenient travel size pouches or sachets, depending on what you like to call them. I just emptied a box of these into a Ziploc bag and that's how I got into Costa Rica. My favorite being the lemonade, which is one of their new flavors. A variety of flavors, but let's say you don't travel as much as I do and you like sparkling water. They make sparkling water. That has exactly the same ratio here of 1,260 being sodium, potassium and magnesium, respectfully. And you can get it that way. They have 12 ounces as well, and they have some newer flavors coming out yet. I haven't seen them on the website, so I'm not going to promote them just yet. I think I've tested the sample ones. They're fantastic. There was a pineapple salt. Oh, my God. It was good. Anyway, these things will take your rehydration game to the next level. The difference when I use these and when I don't, especially when I train hard, is the difference between night and day. It's the difference between functioning well and not functioning at all. I cannot recommend them enough. Some people will say, well, which flavor do you like? I like, like I said, the raspberry. I like the watermelon, but my favorite is currently the lemonade. If you go to drinkelementtea.com ClearedHot, you can get a free sample pack with your first order. So you could try one and then get a sample pack so you can experience the brand and figure out what you like as well. Because everybody's flavor palette is different. They make some spicy ones. They make ones that go good in hot chocolate, so. So if you really care about your rehydration and your electrolyte game, head over to drinklement.com cleared hot and shop to your heart's content. You will not regret it, and you will absolutely feel the difference. Back to the show. Yeah, just grab that other chair.
- [84:03]
B
Britt.
- [84:04]
A
What you're looking for is the most ridiculous and epic nose slide that you've ever seen. A hog, actually.
- [84:11]
B
It really was an epic nose slide.
- [84:13]
A
So in this track, they raced the same course that we did, but you. So you.
- [84:17]
B
You.
- [84:17]
A
It was an oval. You could go into the chicanes. We were required to do so. They had a straightaway, but on their straightaway was a jump, and you had to hit it. These cars, it took them 20 minutes to pick up the carnage off the track. Yeah, most of these vehicles, they forklifted off. I mean, as soon as this thing ended, it was like lemmings came out of the pits. There was. There was. One of them was on fire.
- [84:41]
B
One did catch fire, and even the ones who made it off the track.
- [84:47]
A
Yeah, that was Bucky wrecking right there. Oh.
- [84:49]
B
And actually, that's the one thing I missed was the rollover.
- [84:51]
A
There he is.
- [84:52]
B
Oh, yeah, you can't park there.
- [84:56]
A
Nope. He got side checked. 540. That was our car.
- [84:59]
B
Yep. Yeah.
- [85:03]
A
Oh, he professionally races for Subaru. He says the first vehicle he's ever rolled over. You gotta go. Michael, though, he's fine. Yeah, he just, like, gets up on the side of the car. You gotta find the nose slide.
- [85:17]
B
I'll look it up. Even the vans that made it out under their own power, they barely Made it. That's right. They didn't go much further than off the track. They were all totaled.
- [85:27]
A
I could not believe the amount of debris that was out there. I mean, they had a truck that was just pouring out this like anti the sand coming out the back. Because there was fluid everywhere all over the track. Have you found it, Michael? What do I even pay you to do? It's on this video somewhere. You just have to be better at what you do.
- [85:47]
B
I'm not sure that it is. We need a Drew versus Michael producer off. I don't know who Drew is. He's my producer.
- [85:56]
A
Go to the left. Go where you least where you last saw the vans.
- [85:59]
B
All right.
- [85:59]
A
The monster trucks. That was after Hit Hit play.
- [86:04]
B
Right in there. Oh, yeah.
- [86:08]
A
See, you could go whatever which way you wanted to go. Who.
- [86:15]
B
Who would have ever guessed that vans were not. Oh, that wasn't even the. The best one by far.
- [86:21]
A
Not in racing seats. Most of these people were wearing jeans. Oh my God. And a T shirt. Flat tires. Yep. Just run it on the rims. No big deal.
- [86:32]
B
Yeah, who'd have known that vans were so set up poorly for jumping?
- [86:37]
A
I mean, not.
- [86:39]
B
Not one jumped it gracefully. Oh, I forgot about that guy. Yeah, with the tassels on the back looking like a broken down.
- [86:47]
A
Right in the middle. No big deal. Just go around.
- [86:51]
B
And I believe you had to hit the jump once.
- [86:53]
A
You didn't have.
- [86:54]
B
There it is.
- [86:56]
A
We can stop there, Michael. That's good. Would you like to come next year to be part of the picture?
- [87:00]
B
Yes, actually. Can I drive one? Can I drive with you?
- [87:04]
A
You've had your driver's license for like four years.
- [87:08]
B
Five years, buddy.
- [87:09]
A
Yeah.
- [87:10]
B
No, we're gonna. Here's the deal.
- [87:13]
A
I will see if you can ride as a passenger in one of the vans. I'll talk to Cletus.
- [87:18]
B
No, I.
- [87:20]
A
They were not wearing or in seats that were designed for race. Yeah, straight across the shoulder.
- [87:24]
B
I want to be in the one with the roll cage. And I feel like. I feel like this deal has to be tied to his haircut at the time.
- [87:31]
A
Well, you're getting a mullet.
- [87:33]
B
Start now. Yes, a mullet is. You gotta want it. You gotta want it.
- [87:39]
A
No, it's not. Do you put up the camera of yourself and look.
- [87:42]
B
I know I. We are.
- [87:43]
A
You got a little Superman Q going on there.
- [87:46]
B
This is not my fault. Again, not my fault.
- [87:48]
A
He keeps telling me he showed the barber a picture, but he won't show me the picture. That's what I want to see.
- [87:55]
B
I'll show you the picture.
- [87:56]
A
As embarrassing as it is, now we are talking.
- [88:00]
B
It's literally just a male model with the hair that I like.
- [88:04]
A
What was your Google search term to find it?
- [88:06]
B
I just did, like, hairstyles. Men. It wasn't anything gay.
- [88:12]
A
I don't believe anything that you just said.
- [88:14]
B
The end result says differently. Yeah.
- [88:18]
A
I feel like there was a salad bowl involved.
- [88:22]
B
Here. I don't know if you can see that. Yep.
- [88:24]
A
Now, but hold that up to your camera. I want the viewers to be able to see it too. This is what I have to deal with.
- [88:29]
B
You're welcome.
- [88:32]
A
No, we need to run this back. I think. I think Jared was saying that. I mean, my God. So. And Bucky was explaining. I was partnered with Bucky Lazik, pro skateboarder from like. He was originally in the Tony Hawk video game, the very first one. I mean, I.
- [88:47]
B
That's crazy. He didn't go over.
- [88:49]
A
I didn't know a vehicle could achieve that angle and not go over. I really didn't. I think the only reason it's not is because it's so long. He was saying they did that because the jump is so short, so it kicks the back end.
- [88:59]
B
Okay.
- [89:01]
A
I feel like he had been going five more miles an hour that would have gone.
- [89:05]
B
Oh, for sure. Just sent it. I loved it. I loved it. I remember when that happened, being being in the seats and.
- [89:12]
A
Yes.
- [89:13]
B
Standing up like a. Like a redneck and just screaming my head off going, what?
- [89:17]
A
Well, now that I know what this is, I already talked to jt. I was like, listen, I need to BRCC racing. I need to be head to toe, like, what's red, white and blue, whatever it may be. But we're running this back.
- [89:32]
B
Here's what's about. I don't know much about the space that I'm in. I don't know a lot of different podcasts. Really? I don't watch a lot of different podcasts.
- [89:40]
A
I don't either.
- [89:41]
B
I don't know. Even though I have things on YouTube, I don't know much about YouTube personalities. I didn't know who Cletus McFarland.
- [89:49]
A
Yes.
- [89:50]
B
I didn't know who CLETUS McFARLAND was.
- [89:51]
A
Not his real. His real name is Garrett, I believe. And maybe McFarland is the correct last name. But.
- [89:55]
B
But I don't think you can give out that. We'll just stick with his alias for. For his own identity.
- [90:00]
A
His Instagram name is like Garrett Video. And then like eight numbers. You can tell he made it when he was maybe 16 years old and it's just rocking the same.
- [90:08]
B
And then, and then Devin always makes me feel stupid. He's like, you don't know who that is. And then pulls up all of his videos and his millions of.
- [90:18]
A
Of.
- [90:19]
B
Of watchers and subscribers enough that he bought this racetrack. It was an abandoned racetrack and it's really nice racetrack and he bought it and renovated it and is a YouTube guy.
- [90:31]
A
The Goodyear blimp was there.
- [90:32]
B
The Goodyear blimp was there.
- [90:34]
A
That was dope.
- [90:35]
B
I'm doing it wrong.
- [90:36]
A
Yeah.
- [90:37]
B
Well, we're both. I'm doing it wrong.
- [90:38]
A
I'm gonna get him on the show. Obviously we're both professional race car drivers, so we have that in common.
- [90:43]
B
You got a lot in common.
- [90:44]
A
We both fly helicopters. He actually has the same make and model of helicopter as the one I have up here.
- [90:49]
B
Does he really?
- [90:50]
A
Yeah, he had it long before I did. Did so he's into aviation, he's into cars. He likes black rifle coffee. I think we can do this.
- [90:57]
B
Yeah. He'd clearly be an interesting person, that's for sure. Love to hear his story about how. How you start from. From nothing to that.
- [91:05]
A
I think he was just passionate as a gearhead.
- [91:08]
B
Yeah.
- [91:09]
A
And documented the journey early on.
- [91:13]
B
Yeah.
- [91:14]
A
We're definitely late to the game for a lot of things. Like just age wise, we'll be dead very soon for old age. But some of those massive names, they just started documenting their life and their journey earlier on and the content is utterly consumable and they have millions of followers.
- [91:31]
B
Do you think they're still opening in the space for people or just as much or. It was definitely easier to get in there early.
- [91:42]
A
The volume is higher. Yeah. But I think that there is. But I think it depends on the person. I think if you're a artist and you're doing it because you want to grow a massive following, I think it's possible. But harder than just legitimately letting people see your passion burn through.
- [91:58]
B
Like here's. I don't know many of them, but I know the big ones. Like if miss. I do wonder this sometimes. If Mr. Beast came out today, would he be. Would he. Would he be able to make it?
- [92:09]
A
And so I've seen a video where he said that. He said. I've seen a video where he basically said it would take him. It would take him a while to replicate the size again, but he could do a multi million subscriber channel very quickly because he understands every aspect. So what we're looking at to me is I like the videos and everything else is just go to the homepage if you will. Michael. The three little dash lines up there just hit home. High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a SoFi personal loan. A SoFi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's s-I.com p-o w e r loans originated by Sofi bank and a member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 okay, he. When he looks at this, and this is just me repeating videos where he's been talking about this. This to him is a science project. He'll do 150 test thumbnails and colors and graphics. And he has a total scientific understanding of what gets people to click and what gets them to say. And how long should you be into your video? Like, should you open with this and then you say this to him? It's scientific. He's the mad wizard of YouTube, so he could replicate it. But I do think that you can find your way in that space. I think you might have to be comfortable with a smaller following.
- [93:58]
B
Yeah.
- [94:00]
A
And I don't know about you, I'm totally okay with that. I have never had this aspiration to be famous, to have a big platform. To me, wealth is the ability to do what I want to with my time, to be able to say no to things because I legitimately don't want to do it and not have to say yes because I'm looking at Runway shortening. Because I don't know about you. My E4E5 years, paycheck to paycheck, baby years for about a decade with kids.
- [94:26]
B
The reason that I could never do it and, and I, I prove it with the way, you know, I carry myself and, and, and our brand. I'm not willing to do what it.
- [94:37]
A
Takes to get there in this world.
- [94:40]
B
In this world.
- [94:41]
A
Correct.
- [94:41]
B
You have to be over the top. You have to be outlandish. Yeah. You have to be a little bit. I say risque, not necessarily, you know, sex sexually, but you have to be, you know, you have to push.
- [94:52]
A
There's channels for that, too. We've gone to feedbinder.com on the show before. We haven't clicked beyond the homepage. Let me tell you, because it's, it gets a little wild.
- [95:01]
B
That's, that's, that's that's Patreon right there. You get beyond the homepage.
- [95:05]
A
Well, Mr. Beast is very wealthy. I mean, he has money, but I tell you what, a lot of it. But he's also putting an inordinate amount back into what he does. So let's say he's for easy math. He's pulling in 100 million. And again, this is me repeating things I've heard him say in the mid to high 90th percentile, reinvested back in the business.
- [95:25]
B
Wow.
- [95:26]
A
So on paper, amazing net worth liquid, maybe less. But that's also maybe what it takes to be and grow at that level.
- [95:34]
B
Well, the other thing is that, that we do know, we both know what it takes. And I do believe there's a good parallel between us and Mr. Beast. We know what it takes to be the absolute top of something. It has to consume you. It has to be all you do, all you think about. And you have to be the absolute most professional, smartest person at that. And I'm also not willing to invest that into a YouTube channel for fame and money. I just have other things that I want to do in life.
- [96:11]
A
I've gone through my phase in life where I sacrificed everything to be where I was, and I'm not going to do it again because I do think that job required that. And the only thing that didn't suffer was the job. But everything else, the job never suffered.
- [96:26]
B
Yeah.
- [96:27]
A
But I'm divorced and remarried. Three kids with my previous wife.
- [96:33]
B
Yeah.
- [96:33]
A
Have worked a lot on my relationship with them as they grow. Had to explain to them in their teenage years why I made the decision to leave. And it, the divorce was not because of the military, but it had a hand in it for sure.
- [96:51]
B
Yeah.
- [96:52]
A
It's not the military's fault. It was the decisions that I made to be where I wanted to be above all else. I am not willing to do that for YouTube.
- [97:02]
B
No, I'm. And I'm already doing that with FRCC. We, you know, we get. And I haven't made a dime on FRCC, but we grow 30 to 40% every year. And this year we're on, we're on track to grow another 40%. But what people don't understand in businesses, growth costs money. Like, I, it's not, it's not in my.
- [97:24]
A
What are you talking about? So a bag of coffee and you.
- [97:26]
B
Don'T put money in your wallet. Yeah. You know this. There's only so much profit margin put into it, you know, and if I have to just make it, it's there's not enough profit to buy two cigars for every one cigar I sell. So it's awesome to have more growth, but growth costs money. And so at some point, if we grow another 30% next year, that's, that's, that's growth that I have to buy and, and products, and that's. And that's my paycheck.
- [97:56]
A
Yeah. That's a missing aspect of business. People see you growing and they think that it just equates to more in a bank account. And it does, very briefly, as it passes through on your way, like you said to pre order. Okay, like, Q4 is going great, but we have to have stuff to sell in Q1, Q2, Q3, and we're paying those purchase orders up front.
- [98:13]
B
There. There has been time where in certain months where we had insane growth that it cost me money. It did. It cost me money for the business to grow. And I had to go back through the books and be like, what is going on here? We're having one of our best runs in a while, and we have almost no money in the account because. Because we had to. We had to replace all that product and we had to replace it with more product to, you know, try to forecast that. That was definitely something that was new to me and business. And again, it sounds like whatever. It makes complete sense, but when you're living it, it doesn't make a lot of sense until you go through the numbers. You're like, well, yeah, business cost money.
- [98:57]
A
Yeah, I'm in business to write checks. I thought this was going to go way different in my mind.
- [99:03]
B
Oh. Almost everything I've been a part of, everyone else has made money, more money than I have. Everyone attached to FRCC makes money. I don't make money. Everyone attached to my podcast made money for the longest time. And just when the podcast started making money, I broke off because apparently I hate money or I hate myself to go do my own thing and restart it and restart that whole thing where everyone else makes money but me. HP TRTs might be one of the few things that hasn't just been an absolute grind. And ironically enough, it's what I put the least time and effort into, really. And I hate saying that. It still takes. It still takes time and effort. Yeah. But. Because that's just the way life is.
- [99:57]
A
Yeah.
- [99:57]
B
You know, the TRT company, there's nothing.
- [99:59]
A
Wrong with being successful on something that doesn't monopolize a lot of your time. No.
- [100:03]
B
But it irritates me. It irritates me that that what I. Because that's not my baby. You know, of sorts it is. You know, and. And that has employees. It's just, It's. It's just the iron. It's just the irony of the situation like what you pour your heart and soul is. And it grows and you know there's light at. In that tunnel. Yeah, but what you. But your redheaded stepchild in business. Yeah, that. That flourishes. So maybe it's me. Maybe. Maybe I should. Maybe more of me is. Is bad. I should do less. I don't think it's you. Well, what it is.
- [100:39]
A
Life isn't fair.
- [100:40]
B
You know, things don't.
- [100:41]
A
Things don't come out the way that you want them to. I would say if you can find, I think diversifying the income streams and this, trust me, people be very cautious taking any business advice. What I'll say is if you can diversify, though, it allows you for, in your words, the redheaded stepchild to pay for your passion. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. As long as you can figure out a way to do something that is empowering and enriching for you and you really like doing. Who cares, right? If there's a little bit of bleed over from that. I mean, man, I've had some great business ideas that went absolutely nowhere and we're talking. Well, they went in reverse.
- [101:17]
B
Yeah, it went somewhere. Reverse is a gear.
- [101:21]
A
It is a gear. Thankfully, it's a little. You know, you can't hit freeway speeds in reverse for an extended period of time. No, I think, I think that is. I think that is just fine if you're. If it's not your passion project, but it pays for it, who cares, man?
- [101:37]
B
Now not gonna look at Gift Horse in the mouth.
- [101:39]
A
Yeah. How do you structure your podcast, your release schedule? This is another one. People ask me a bunch about how should I do this? When should I release episodes?
- [101:47]
B
I don't know when you should. I just know when I do.
- [101:51]
A
You try to consistently do it one time a week, four times a month.
- [101:55]
B
I try. This may be a little different because I accidentally deleted an episode that I needed. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But I try to drop an episode every. I put it on the schedule Sunday night to drop early Monday morning. And I do it for this reason because I used to get a lot because it was a random day that I don't know why we did it that way. We got a lot of comments saying Monday suck. And I really enjoy. I look forward every Monday driving to work and at Least I get to learn something. Hear a story, you know, hear a history episode that we did and that. That brightens my Monday. So I get through half of it on the way to work. I get the other half of it on the way home and it makes my Mondays better. And I'm like, okay, we'll keep it Monday. So we fell into. Into the Monday thing. And if we ever don't put on an episode on Monday and it gets on Tuesday, oh, we hear about it. Yeah, you ruined my Monday.
- [102:52]
A
People get conditioned to it. So I don't think I've missed an episode in seven years. It helps. The consistency helps. But you know, like sitting down and talking with you. Easiest part of my day scheduling to make sure you have all the guests and it's lined up and the editing like that.
- [103:10]
B
That.
- [103:10]
A
Not the easiest part of my day. That's the stuff that people don't see. They just want to go to where they consume it via the portal and right. Hey man, where's my stuff? How dare you not have it ready?
- [103:20]
B
You know, breaking off my own was. Was great because I do like learning new things. I like being in having creative control. So eventually I'd like to pay other people to do that. I just can't do it just yet. That. But now at least when I do get to pay other people to do that, I know what their job is to some degree. I won't be as good of them because they're the professionals, but at least I have an understanding of. Of what it is they do. The bigger pain in the butt to me is the YouTube portion is fairly easy, but then making sure that it's up on Spotify and then making sure that. That it's up on itunes. Yep, we're having a problem right now where our intro song, I bought the copyrights to it but. But Spotify keeps flagging it and they're like, nope, this like you know, you have a copyright issue and they can tell you real quick. No, there's no one you can talk to to prove that. I bought this. I bought this song. I own it.
- [104:21]
A
Dear Spotify, please see my attached receipt for this. Yeah, you're sending out information to the.
- [104:27]
B
Ether and then those two. Spotify does video and audio, but itunes is audio and then I have to re render it audio only. Like it's just. It's the. The backside of it is. Is a lot of work, but I'm getting faster at it. But I enjoyed learning it. But I'll also enjoy handing that off to someone soon.
- [104:49]
A
I Wish I had somebody that I could hand that stuff off to that was actually capable, you know? Michael, do you know anybody?
- [104:58]
B
I'll look into it. Get back to you.
- [104:59]
A
Yeah, let's just stick with the camera buttons over there, buddy.
- [105:02]
B
This is already confusing enough for me.
- [105:05]
A
That mustache is.
- [105:06]
B
I'm at my limits.
- [105:10]
A
He used to have at least a ginger beard. I mean, obviously they're soulless, you know, but. So you can't hurt him. But the combination is just this area here.
- [105:20]
B
It's a healthy work environment. I like it here.
- [105:22]
A
I'm sharpening him into a weapon. He doesn't. It's gonna serve him better, you know? It'll serve him better. You have kids, right?
- [105:29]
B
I got four kids.
- [105:30]
A
How old are they?
- [105:31]
B
My daughter's 16. I got twin girls after her that are 13, about to be 14, and a little boy that's 11.
- [105:39]
A
Do they have any interest at all in what you used to do? No. I am the most boring person to my children, like, resoundingly. I actually, maybe I could count on one hand the number of times my kids have ever asked me about anything I used to do.
- [105:57]
B
They don't have any interest in what I used to do. They don't have any interest in what I do now.
- [106:00]
A
That's fair. Yeah, that's fair.
- [106:02]
B
The only time I even knew that my oldest daughter tracks me at all is when she sent me a link of the New York Post article of Rob O' Neill suing me for $25 million. That was the first time my daughter even. I even knew she looked. She looked at anything I did. Yeah.
- [106:20]
A
How crazy is that? Like, the number of. I'm sure you get this, too. The number of people that will reach out. And I'm grateful that people have that. They trust me to give them an honest answer. And I'm very appreciative that they reach out. But my own kids would just be like, dad, can you move out of the way? I can't see. See the TV through you. I'm actually thankful because I just want to be their dad.
- [106:46]
B
Yeah. You know, and in a weird way, when it comes. You can't force it, unfortunately, when it comes to sports, the mentality that it took for me to get to where we went, it's. It. You know, I was never the most athletic. I was never the most talented, but I had the right mindset. And sports is. It's so much mindset and trying to relay that to kids who. They're not ready for it yet. And. And that's. That's what sucks to some degree where you want to tell them, like, hey, like. Like, do you know what dad did? Like, do you know that I was the best in the world at something? And so you should probably listen to me.
- [107:34]
A
I mean, I don't. Blue is slightly better than green.
- [107:38]
B
I was one of the best in the world. I mean, I don't say that, but, you know, it's. It's what you. It's what you want to say, but just. I don't know. It'll. It'll either, but, you know, I. I don't know when it happened for me. I don't know when it happened for you. I don't. I. I was a quiet kid. I wasn't always super aggressive at sports.
- [108:00]
A
I wasn't either. Very average at sports.
- [108:02]
B
Sports. It eventually clicked for me and I went from sitting on a bench to an all star baseball player. But I. I don't really know why, why that happened. Dude.
- [108:15]
A
I never got out of the average. I mean, I played water polo and baseball growing up and I mean, I played with the team, but not, you know, not getting all star nods, even. Honestly, physically, even in the. In the team. I mean, 65 to 75th percentile. Had a guy on two days ago. We were in Buds together. Hadn't seen him since we were in Buds, and he brought some pictures in from us. In hell week, I weighed 150 pounds. I was 6 foot tall. 150. I gained weight in Buds, which actually might be more impressive than graduating because the caloric requirement was insane. I was just a garbage can though, too. Like eight Snickers bars in a row. It's another thing people, they. They will ask me, you know, what is it like just serving with the best athletes in the world? And I laugh. Like, listen, there were some guys that were outliers.
- [109:11]
B
Yeah.
- [109:11]
A
Just chiseled out of marble. Spectacular athletes. The rest of us were pretty average, just making do, like trying not to trip in front of everybody else or slip and fall or. We're just doing the best we can. It's exceptionally average. People ask to do things that are completely abnormal.
- [109:33]
B
I don't want to turn this into an interview of you, but it does begs a question then. If that's how you viewed yourself, what made you believe you were good enough to leave the Whiteside teams to go assess?
- [109:51]
A
I didn't know if I was. I don't think I've ever had anything that I've done in my life where I didn't deeply struggle with imposter syndrome. I didn't know. I mean, people have asked me, did you ever think about quitting in buds? And I first off, this was many decades ago. So I struggle to remember almost anything about BUDS other than it sucked, it was very painful, and I was glad that it was over. I don't remember having a moment where I was considering whether or not I should quit or I needed to quit quit. But I do remember being absolutely terrified before training started because I didn't know if I had what it took. Yeah, and then you would think at the end of that training program you would tell yourself, okay, I can do anything now. No, I've never had that moment where I'm like, you know what I can do?
- [110:35]
B
I've arrived.
- [110:36]
A
Never. But also when I look at my career, I never got out of the new guy phase. So you go to buds, you show up at your first team, you're faceless and nameless and you're sweeping and responsible for buying an immense amount of alcohol for everybody else. And at about the 2 platoon mark, you know, they're like, you're doing well, maybe you can start mentoring people. Well, after two platoons, I went and screened. So I go over there, make it through selection. You go up to the. When I was there was the second deck where all the assault squadrons were. And guess what, you're a new guy again. And you're going to be a new guy for three to five years. Well, I did my four years there.
- [111:13]
B
There, yeah.
- [111:14]
A
And then left and I went to be a BUDS instructor where I was the newest instructor that had shown up. So that was a little bit different. Like, it's not like the other instructors were good new guy. I'm like, I'll beat your ass. But then I go and I got a commission and I was the most junior officer in the Navy at one point. And I go to team three and I didn't know what I was doing, but I was the most junior officer. So I never even got out of the. I retired as a lieutenant, which is at 03.
- [111:37]
B
Not A.
- [111:37]
A
It would be captain equivalent in the Army. Me, I never got out of the new guy cycle.
- [111:41]
B
That does suck. Never thought about that.
- [111:43]
A
For 17 years I was a new guy.
- [111:45]
B
Yeah.
- [111:46]
A
There you had a different. You, you had a long. You had a great run where you were at. You got to write the whole.
- [111:53]
B
I did. I got to see the whole spectrum in both sf, I got to see.
- [111:57]
A
The bottom of the bell curve and wonder what the hell was at the top.
- [112:00]
B
I will tell you what sucks about that. Don't I'd rather have have it my side of it than yours, but there are guys that should go to selection that don't. And just their mindset alone, this being their mindset is the reason why they shouldn't go. But it. It crossed my mind for about a second. I was an E7. And SF. This probably next in line to. To take a team, and things were easy for me. Me, you know, I, I, you know, I was a. Even my team sergeant will probably laugh at this and agree. I mean, I was somewhat of a shadow governor of the team.
- [112:39]
A
Like, reputation, established bona fides, experience, all of those things.
- [112:43]
B
Yeah. Sometimes the team sergeant's coming up to me like, hey, Brent, what. What should we do?
- [112:47]
A
Yeah, but that's a smart team sergeant. He was a discrepancy in experience.
- [112:51]
B
He was a damn good team sergeant. But that felt good. Be like, oh, you know, I'm. I'm. I've made it. And then having to go be. Be a new guy all over again sucks. Sucks from being the. The man on your ODA or the man in the company with, you know, a lot of schools, a lot of combat experience, and you kind of run the place to being someone nobody cares about. Shut your mouth. Go sit in the corner. Wait. Wait there for about three years before we care about what you say. And that sucked. That. That is a. That is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of guys, I think it prevents guys from doing because they get comfortable and they don't want to be a new guy again. And I get it.
- [113:31]
A
Was E7 a little bit long in the tooth to go through selection? Do most guys hit it earlier than that? Because for people listening are not familiar with the military, E9 is as high as it goes. Even though some E9s pretend like they're trying to make E10, which I never understood that. It's like, hey, dude, you are 100% in a spot where you can fight against this BS that you complain about your entire way up. Because right now, what you're doing is you're putting on the company uniform. There's no E10, bro.
- [113:59]
B
Wasn't. And this is, you know, another, you know, big difference. Army, Navy, you know, army, especially Army Special Forces, you can move up in ranks pretty fast. Okay, so I went to selection. I was 30. So, you know, I. I was in my prime at 30. Even though I was E7, which. Which you would. Which you would think is probably in the Navy that had been a little bit older because, you know, you really get E7 that fast. Normally it would be, it would be.
- [114:25]
A
Abnormal because E7 in the Navy is kind of your jump in the enlisted side between junior enlisted to Europe. They call it the goats locker Chiefs mess.
- [114:33]
B
But if you went to SF early in your career and between seven, eight or nine years time in service, you'll be an E7. If you're, if you're not, that's actually kind of a bigger indicator. So yeah, it was a brand new E7, but I was an E7.
- [114:50]
A
Still a wild concept. People would hear that like, yeah, you were the man. And you go to this place and all people care about is whether or not you can perform. Like, shut up, do your job. You are under an immense amount of scrutiny. Go ahead and screw up one time and see what happens. Maybe twice. But the first one's gonna get you some more scrutiny.
- [115:08]
B
They just, and I understood this later, I knew better than to talk. I had a team leader that was a Ranger guy who was a very stoic kind of hard nosed guy. So it was easy to read the room and be like, I'll just shut up and sweep the floors and take out the trash. I know my job. But we'd have other new guys every now and again that would say something. And generally speaking, they just didn't care. And that new guy during this time, the gwat might have five, six, seven deployments. Yeah. I think one time, to quote one of the guys, like, I don't care how you did it in the minor leagues. And it's. And it seems like, you know, from the outside looking at people like, well, you should probably listen to everyone. But those tier one targets were different. Like, they just were different. They were a lot more volatile and it, and it. Even though that experience absolutely helped me.
- [116:11]
A
Even the way you're prosecuting them is different.
- [116:13]
B
How you get it. Yeah, the efficiency, the speed.
- [116:17]
A
Exactly.
- [116:17]
B
Everything about it is different.
- [116:19]
A
It's based off the same template, but it's expressed in a different manner.
- [116:24]
B
Right. And that's a good way of putting it, based off the same template. So as a new guy makes you feel like, hey, I've seen this template before.
- [116:32]
A
That's what you say to yourself in the cage by yourself. You don't say that in front of the senior people.
- [116:38]
B
Yeah. And once he was told, I don't care how you did it in the minor league. So I was like, like, yeah, just shut up. And, and, and that's something I think that goes against. It's a little bit different generational. And I know people, you know, I Still keep in contact with some of the guys on teams. And, and it is a different generation. This generation is a lot more inquisitive. They ask a lot of questions. They're not scared to speak up. And some people would say that's, that's not a bad thing, but it is different. And I think the reason why they do this. Be interested to hear what your response is, because all the information's at your fingertips. You don't have to wait for an answer. You want to know when JSOC was created? Give me a second. 1981? When was SOCOM created? Give me a second. I don't have to. I have a question. I get an answer right now. I mean, that just wasn't our generation. Our generation had to. If you were socially aware, you had to sit there and stay quiet and be like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll figure this out eventually. And the last thing I'll do if I can't figure it out by myself is, is ask. And it, and it rubs the generation before the wrong way.
- [117:50]
A
I can see why there's a difference between information and experience. Having access to data is great, but there is no substitute for reference.
- [118:00]
B
It.
- [118:00]
A
There's no substitute for reps. I don't care how many questions you ask, how many YouTube videos you watch, how much Call of Duty you played in a full motion simulator. You can't, you can't short circuit reps.
- [118:14]
B
Absolutely. It's, it's why when I go, I still go teach SWAT teams, usually for free, courtesy of another reason why FRCC isn't as profitable to me personally as it should be, because it has a massive give back program. I've gone around this country teaching SWAT teams and usually for free in an frcc, CC pays for that and it only pays for my travel and lodging. It doesn't pay for my day rate. Yep. And there's a big difference between schoolhouse knowledge getting in there and getting to tell them, hey, like these, you know, just. Even if you go back to the basics, like this is points of domination. These are your sectors. This is how you move in a house. And that schoolhouse knowledge is good and it is, it is the basis of tactics. And you can't create a shortcut until you do that first. Those shortcuts were there for a reason and they're, and they're based off of experience that you don't have to do this. But I think the problem in that community and even in the white side, at times we shortcut too quick. They go to the shortcut too quick. So when they see an answer, they default to the shortcut cut rather than default. That's right.
- [119:27]
A
So the guy who taught me how to fly the helicopter, you know, a lot of this is airspeed based. You know, at 40 knots and below, you just set it back down on the ground. Okay, it's 60 knots or until you're out of the green. He. He constantly would reinforce. Wait until you're at 60 knots before you turn downwind. A dynamic turn. He came back up. We did my recurrent. And I'm taking off. And he goes, all right, make a. Go ahead and make a turn. I'm like, I'm not out of the green yet. And he goes, because once you know the rules, you can deviate from the rules. People kill themselves when they reverse that. And I'm sitting there like, son of a bitch. It goes to exactly what you're saying. It doesn't mean you should live your life by bending the rules. But once you understand why the rule is there, if you need to make an exception for the real world, you can do it.
- [120:13]
B
And I say this time and time again, when I make a shortcut, anytime you do a shortcut, you are. You are accepting risk. You're accepting risk. So when I take a shortcut, I know the risk that I'm taking for me personally, and I know the risk that I'm putting on my team by not doing my job, because I know what the right answer looks like. The problem is when people take shortcuts tactically, too soon, they don't know the risk that they're taking or the risk they're putting their teammates in, and it will come back to bite them in the ass.
- [120:45]
A
I mean, when I did the cross training workup and the deployment with you guys, again, same template, a little bit different expression, but both of those templates I have absolute certainty are written in the deepest pools of blood that there is.
- [121:01]
B
Yes, absolutely.
- [121:02]
A
And if you don't understand that, like you said, I am, as a general rule, I am willing to take calculated risks, but I don't give a gamble. It's when people under misunderstand those things. If you don't know where the why the rule exists and where it comes from, they're like, oh, yeah, no, I understood the risk. Like, no, no, you're gambling not only with your life, but with everybody else's life as well.
- [121:24]
B
I like the way you said that because I also try to. You know, people have this perception that, you know, that these tier one units are just Superhuman and that they're ahead of the curve, and it's just absolutely not true. I normally put it like this. Our best guy will beat your best guy, but it'll be close. Like, it's not something crazy, but he'll beat him, but it'll be close. Our worst guy will run circles around your worst guy. And that's really. We don't have any weak links, so there's not a lot of superhumans running around down. Just everybody is. Is competent. And the. The other part of that is hamster fell off the wheel. Are you kidding me? Oh, you're not gonna. You're not gonna edit that out, right? I'm just gonna. Let me flounder if it makes you look bad.
- [122:21]
A
Definitely make sure we do this short.
- [122:27]
B
You said. You said those tactics were. Were written in blood. Yeah, and I said, said, and if you want to think that we're ahead of the curve, we're absolutely not. In fact, I would argue the opposite. We just get the opportunity to get into these gunfights a little more often. And I would even argue. I think some of the changes that we made took too long to make 100%. We just had the opportunity to keep making them and eventually say, hey, hey, is there a better way of doing business?
- [122:59]
A
I could list off specific individuals, two in particular, that would still be alive if we had switched from doing dynamic to whatever people want to call it, combat clearance or clearing. Externally, 100% would be alive. And then you can take it a step farther and say, were warning signs there leading up to that. Yep. Oh, doors cracked open a little bit. Light sources in the rooms, finding people in areas. That would be the last place that you would look on a normal entrance. Like, hey, guys. But of course that now it's. This is looking in the rear hindsight, right. At a time where you do an AAR and you're getting briefed on another and you're going from sundown to sun up, like, it's not an excuse, but it's a reality.
- [123:44]
B
Yep. Yeah, completely.
- [123:45]
A
They would be alive. What do you make of all your military experiences? Like, looking back. What. Especially given the optic of where our country's at now. And just this is one I existentially struggle with. Like, what's the point of everything that we did? I'm not saying it was pointless. I asked.
- [124:07]
B
No, I get it was the point. It's. It's gonna sound like I just put on blinders. Of course I think about things like that, you know, every now and again, but I really Try, I really try not to think about that. I really think, like, what. The ostrich approach, what, what, what good does it, does it do me there? I, I can't go back and change it. It's not, we're not going to change anything for the future because of it, really. When I, When I look back at my military career and I truly mean that, I'm, I'm just humbled and grateful, like I really am. And I look at all the good guys that didn't make it or got hurt, you know, just doing something silly. I look at the guys who I thought were better than me and, and didn't make it as far as I did, and I just, I just look back as grateful, like, what a wild ride and what a, and what a time to do it. I mean, there were guys in the 80s and 90s with just as long as a ride and just also hit all the, the, the milestones that I hit and never really got to, you know, to, to, to put it to task and I, I got to do it.
- [125:19]
A
Were we the lucky ones or were they. Because by doing it in real world.
- [125:24]
B
I mean, we were. I loved it. I loved it.
- [125:28]
A
I did, too. I did, too. But it comes at a cost. And that's why I say, who's the lucky one? Ones. The ones who got to sharpen the knife and never had to get into a knife fight or the ones who sharpen the knife and then spent a career in it and had to suffer the consequences of it.
- [125:43]
B
Never had to bury a friend and another friend and another friend. That's another one. I just call it the ostrich approach. I just, we, we all knew the risk. Yeah. And it, and it could, and it could have been. And it could have been any of us at any time. And any of us at any time could have not re. Enlisted and say, you know what? We all had access that for information. We all knew the wars, if you wanted to argue it as being a little bit pointless, Iraq for sure. We know the handwriting on the wall for Afghanistan had been up there for the guys on the ground the whole time. We knew the Afghans didn't want this. There's a reason we were driving them for years and years and years, and they never really started doing their own unilateral operations because they were incapable. I don't think there was any guy on the ground that when they saw the fall of Afghanistan, man, I can't believe the Afghans didn't stand up to the Taliban. No, they haven't done it for 20 years.
- [126:43]
A
It was the other way around. They said, I can't believe it took that long. Have you seen the Taliban Rollerblade brigade?
- [126:50]
B
I think I've seen social media clips.
- [126:53]
A
I hope it's real. I'm willing to fall for that type of AI. Yeah. Oh, but also, why didn't we think.
- [127:01]
B
Of this as a way to get.
- [127:02]
A
To Target in an urban environment? Can you imagine? Yes. Look at this. Why wasn't this us at least once? Just so we can say at least once. I mean, look at my man. He actually has flags on little plastic holders, one on each shoulder. And what he's wearing is not Ear Pro. I think that's a musical headset. Said.
- [127:24]
B
But, you know, I also got to live during a really cool time of war. You know, I've. I've worn jeans on Target. Yeah. Which, I mean, it sounds small, but, you know, in. In the. In the. In the grand scheme of the military. That's crazy. I've worn cowboy boots to Target.
- [127:40]
A
Really?
- [127:41]
B
Yeah.
- [127:41]
A
Yeah. Definitely haven't done that.
- [127:42]
B
One more of a homage to. To my grandfather and, And. And. And my family, which. That's.
- [127:51]
A
That's how, you know, you've been doing it a while. You're like, you know, tonight guys, is. I'm gonna go. We're gonna go with the rattleskin boots. No spurs, obviously, because I want to not give up my position. But, yeah, that's how, you know, you've been in it long enough. You start having really dumb ideas.
- [128:09]
B
Yeah, yeah, they were. Yeah, maybe. But, yeah, I don't. I. I loved it. Like, I really did. And like I said, any of us could have stopped at any time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We kept doing it. So I look back at that and I do. I.
- [128:26]
A
You think it made you a better person or worse?
- [128:31]
B
That's a good question. I think it made me a better person.
- [128:37]
A
Same here.
- [128:38]
B
But I think I. I think I fumbled the ball a few times. It. And I don't think I capitalized on it as much as I could have. I think there are opportunities for me to exit that an even better person. And I didn't do it. Yeah.
- [129:01]
A
I think very largely it was positive for me. Something I struggle with sometimes is at my best, I was able to make very complicated decisions quickly, like binary black and white up into, you know, the ending of human life, which people. That's another one that's romanticized where they think that you're, like, watching somebody for 72 years and you. I'm like, ah, you scared me around the corner. I gotcha. Because you didn't have night vision and I did.
- [129:31]
B
Right.
- [129:32]
A
Surprise.
- [129:32]
B
But.
- [129:35]
A
I have that mindset of, of thinking everything in life has to be made at that velocity. Has bit me a few times, not giving it the time it deserves, not reminding myself, hey, bud, nobody's shooting at you. Give people a little bit of grace, give this decision a little bit of time and be open to maybe revisiting some decisions because you made it too quick. Quickly.
- [130:06]
B
Yeah. I'll tell you, the, the, really one of the best things I have in life going on right now is just like you. I was, I, I prided myself, my decision making skills. I could make very good decisions very quickly. And other people can make quick decisions, but I do, I think you're just wired, right, to be able to get a snapshot of a situation and read the situation correctly, because that's the first thing you have to do before you can make a good decision. If you don't, if you don't read the situation right, you're going to implement a, what you believe is training.
- [130:40]
A
Reinforce this though too. I mean, we had the benefit. I mean, if you look back at almost every training evolution you ever did, it's, it's a snapshot of that, right? Hey, situation, decide, situation, decide. And you're on the clock and everybody's watching. And if you make a mistake, everybody's like, you suck. You're like, yeah, kind of.
- [130:55]
B
And I did, I brought that mindset over to business and it did help me out a lot. You know, the business was failing. So rather than just like, well, we're just going to ride this in and hope for the best, you know, be able to assess that and say, all right, well, what, what can we be doing different? You know, what, what, you know, what's, what's our, what's our weakness right now? All right, let's not do that. I don't know if this is best, but let's try this and then be able to stop and pivot quickly enough that we didn't dig ourselves a grave that, that we couldn't get out of. But the problem with that was it's always, it's honestly, it's always just been me making decisions. And I got really comfortable with that, but I haven't, I'm not always the best at it. And so I finally, I finally can.
- [131:43]
A
Be the best at everything.
- [131:44]
B
I finally have someone in my life that I get to bounce ideas off of that I trust and be like, hey, this was, this, this is what I'm thinking about doing, like, should I do this? And even. Even with that. It's a hard habit to break, to bounce an idea off someone that you trust and that you know, you know is smart or sometimes smarter. You in business and still not go with your gut and be like, I'm still going to do things my way because that's what I'm so used to doing. Then only to find it, find out like, oh, maybe, maybe, maybe I shouldn't have done that.
- [132:18]
A
Yep.
- [132:18]
B
So. But I pride myself. I used to say this all the time, but of late, hasn't been necessarily true. I don't make the same mistake twice. I'm just really creative at my first mistake. So I can make an amazing amount of new mistakes. But when it comes to that, I've made the same mistake a few times. So thank you, Devin. I'm doing. And, yeah, I'm doing better. Yeah.
- [132:47]
A
I. Fortunately, in life so far, I haven't made any. So. God, I'm trying to tally my failures here, and I'm like, maybe we should tally the successes, because there's way fewer of those than mistakes. No, it.
- [133:01]
B
Yeah.
- [133:01]
A
If you. If I look back at the best. The best leaders I ever worked with, they never tried to be the smartest person in the room. And that's something that I try to emulate. The best leaders always tried to staff the most capable and competent people, and they would solicit for guidance and advice and feedback. Back then they'd make the decision, but it was an educated one. And I'm always wary of somebody who thinks they have the answer to everything.
- [133:25]
B
Yeah. When you make a bad decision, though, does it make you feel better when you get on your helicopter and go for a ride?
- [133:31]
A
No, because then they just think about flying it into the side of a mountain. Piece of. I struggle with negative self talk from time to time.
- [133:41]
B
Plenty. Plenty of mountains out here. A lot of options. Lot of options.
- [133:45]
A
When I make a mistake, it hurts. I mean, I don't. Do you know anybody who gets pumped about failure? I don't. Well, actually, I don't know, Michael. You get. You fail pretty often.
- [133:53]
B
You seem to be failed. Yeah. No, you just take it out on me.
- [133:57]
A
That's fair. That is fair.
- [133:59]
B
He's not pumped about that haircut. So I don't. Yeah. So I think, what should we call it?
- [134:05]
A
Guys? Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree, Zoe.
- [134:08]
B
This thing weighs a ton. Drew, ski lift with your legs, man.
- [134:11]
A
Santa. Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not of course he did.
- [134:16]
B
Right, Santa? You know my elf Drew Ski here, He handles the nice list. And elf, I'm six' three.
- [134:22]
A
What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies.
- [134:28]
B
Right, Mrs. Claus?
- [134:30]
A
I'm Mrs. Claus much younger sister.
- [134:33]
B
And AT T mobile, there's no trade.
- [134:34]
A
In needed when you switch. So you can keep your old friends.
- [134:37]
B
Or give it as a gift.
- [134:38]
A
And the best part, you can make the switch to T mobile from your.
- [134:40]
B
Phone in just 15 minutes. Nice. My side of the tree is slipping. Kimber.
- [134:45]
A
The holidays are better. AT T Mobile, switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 month legal credits for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance agreement. 256 gigs. $830. Eligible for it in a new line, $100 plus a month plan. Auto payless taxes, fees required. Check out 15 minutes or less per line. Visit T mobile.com is that the Caesar?
- [135:09]
B
That's pretty good actually. Yeah, because of that superman little loop. The super Caesar.
- [135:15]
A
Super Caesar.
- [135:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. That also was not on purpose. That's just how it fell. How it fell.
- [135:20]
A
Super Caesar works. Cuz you like tossing guys salads too.
- [135:23]
B
That's true. It's so true.
- [135:26]
A
Take every opportunity that you get, Michael. See that?
- [135:29]
B
You're gonna leave here a strong man. You're gonna leave here a strong man.
- [135:33]
A
No, failure sucks.
- [135:34]
B
It's the worst.
- [135:35]
A
It is the worst. And it hurts. Especially when you come like there. There were so many individual failures, micro failures. But our teams never failed like we always won. And that's what sucks is that team is gone and you're by yourself and you fail. And it fucking sucks.
- [135:59]
B
I can deal with failure. I really can.
- [136:02]
A
I've learned to. And I've learned to grow from it and then do my own aar. I'm like, why did objectively, why did this happen? Was I too emotional? Was I too quick in my decision? I do the same thing. Let's not make the same one. I was gonna say twice, but now I just say as few times see as possible.
- [136:19]
B
I can. But here's the irony of that, that it only happens a few times. When I say I can deal with failure, if it's something out of my control. And it's just.
- [136:28]
A
That's easier to tell.
- [136:29]
B
Sometimes you just take an L. Yeah. And I can take those. Like I really can. I just brush them off. Like, hey, sometimes life sucks. Like, what are you gonna do about it? The problem is, is when I take an L and I clearly see in hindsight that it didn't have to happen. And those, those, those haunt me. And I do, I lament over those, I get a bad attitude over, over it. Which is also still silly because there's nothing you can do about it. Well, well, I mean, you know, I.
- [136:55]
A
Mean, I don't know if it's silly. I think it's beneficial because there's the other side of that coin. And that would be the person that fails never even takes a look at life. And they're just hop, skipping a jump down life and they keep making the same mistakes, but they never care. I'll take the person that struggles to sleep at night after a big failure because they want to figure out why and what they can do differently over the oblivious person. And.
- [137:19]
B
But you can. My argument would be is you could do that without, without mope around pissed at everyone. Yeah, with, with, with the bat, with the bad attitude. Like you can, you can still acknowledge it and, and turn that into, you know, positive energy and like. All right, well how, let's assess this. How do we, how's this not going to fail again?
- [137:37]
A
Hey man, we don't have as many reps at that yet. Yeah, we got a lot of reps at the other stuff. Stuff.
- [137:43]
B
Yeah. And usually the smaller the mistake. It's just the irony of it. The smaller the mistake, the more pissed I get. I'll give you two examples. If I miss a turn on the highway, don't talk to me for about 10 minutes. I'm, I'm. And I don't get mad on the road. You can cut me off and I'll be like, well, I was in the blind spot. It happens here.
- [138:05]
A
I can make excuses for people that cut me off.
- [138:07]
B
Yeah, I really don't get mad on the road. People in the slower lane do tick me off a little bit, but you know, I don't sit there and you know, honk my horn or, you know, flipping the finger. The other one more. More recently, we were in the Virgin Islands. I left my phone at the, at the car rental place and it was like a 45 minute taxi ride to the hotel for the whole 45 minutes, just fuming. Cause I left.
- [138:36]
A
Of course you're a failure as an operator.
- [138:38]
B
I know. Just fuming.
- [138:39]
A
You left your nods on target. You can never recover and nothing you.
- [138:43]
B
Can do about It. So I'm gonna sit there and ruin this vacation and fume. We get to the hotel, the lady at the hotel goes, oh, I'll just. I'll. I know the people at the airport. I'll just go drive back and get it. She comes back in 30 minutes with my phone. I'm like, well, why was. I was on the verge of ruining the beginning of this vacation over that? There's nothing. Cause we're idiots. There's nothing. Yeah, because we're idiots. Yeah. Yeah. It's the small stuff that gets me. But, you know, I could get sued for 25 million and be like. Like, yeah, that's life. We'll figure it out.
- [139:10]
A
God, I'm still so fascinated that that happened and where it will go.
- [139:14]
B
I don't. I don't know why your buddy would do that to me, but.
- [139:17]
A
Never met the guy, never had a conversation with him, never crossed paths with him.
- [139:21]
B
Well, I'd say that, too, now.
- [139:23]
A
Yeah. In this case, I'm telling the truth, though. It's just the way it is. People ask me about that event all the time, and I always tell them the same thing. Wasn't there, wasn't on target, don't know the guy. I know these other people. This is what they've told me. That's all I can answer. It's the best I can answer.
- [139:39]
B
Yeah. And you almost said something that I can probably actually argue that, but it is. It is a little bit rare. Like, some of these pivotal points of these major operations, and Medal of Honor winners, like, you just don't see a lot of drama that surrounds, like, a lot of these things, but.
- [140:05]
A
Because they're.
- [140:06]
B
Because they're true. Yeah, because they're true.
- [140:09]
A
It's very crystallized.
- [140:10]
B
So that's. That's always what makes me kind of want to ask people. Why do you think there's constant drama around this, that it's. That it's been going on for years? Yeah. I just happen to say it the loudest, but I can. You know, I can go back for years and talk about people who've made snippets about it or this about it. You know, not. Not the most popular guy in the SEAL community, but. What's his name? Cole Wrote. Wrote the. Matthew Cole.
- [140:40]
A
I had him on the podcast.
- [140:41]
B
Did you really?
- [140:42]
A
Yeah, for over three hours. We talked about his book.
- [140:44]
B
What was his book? Code of a Country. Yeah. You know, him. After interviewing dozens of seals, came to the same exact conclusion. He's. He's not getting sued, dude.
- [140:57]
A
You know, one question I can't answer and I don't understand is why. Or maybe the. Maybe the answer is so incredibly simple and that's why I can't wrap my hand around it. Why doesn't the Navy just say something?
- [141:12]
B
I've, I have FOIA'd this, and I knew the neighbor was gonna, yeah, gonna help on a FOIA on this type operation. But in fact, we, we started to go down that road earlier, and I was like, talking about, you know, high level. Yeah, this, that is absolute. The more, you know, who actually got me on that line of thinking. I was talking to Sean Ryan on. I hope he doesn't mind me talking about. I don't normally talk about personal conversations, but this, it's not a bad one. And I was talking to him about the Tim Kennedy stuff, and he interestingly.
- [141:46]
A
Changed the thumbnail on that episode. He did.
- [141:48]
B
He did. And I did say something about, about Sean and in my podcast. So I want to call him and say, hey, I just want to let you know, like, I, I, I did mention you, and this is what, this is what I said about you, but I want you to hear, you know, from me and, and, and, and why, and why I said it. And, and John's rebuttal is like, if, if everything's you're saying is true, and he's like, and I believe it is, then why, why do you think it's on me to, you know, you know, kind of divvy out the truth when the army itself has been quiet about this? Why is, if, you know, if all this is true, then isn't, you know, doesn't the army have those things called, you know, the army values?
- [142:33]
A
That's a powerful question.
- [142:34]
B
And I'm like, and, and it really took me back. And I was like, never, never looked at it that way. I was like, sean, you're absolutely right. Why hasn't the army done anything about this?
- [142:44]
A
Because it puts their integrity in question.
- [142:46]
B
Why hasn't the Navy done anything about this? Like, you think the Navy would be like, hold on.
- [142:52]
A
Well, it's not a good look for the Navy. And you would think, right, that they could take a hot knife through butter to the best of their ability, at least, instead of staying quiet.
- [143:02]
B
Right. There's, it's a. And there's always the people in the comment section like, well, they think that he was, you know, tapped by the Navy to be, you know, the, the spokesman about this. And so they kind of blessed off on. Right. I mean, that's absolutely not true. Although I do believe that happened to Marcus Lutrell. And I think there's evidence right. You know, right now for that. Navy basically wrote the book for him. Yeah. So it does happen, but it's. That would be the only time I've ever, you know, heard that. That happening. I actually didn't even believe that narrative for, for a while until more information came out. I was like, well, I'll be damned. I think the Navy did, did tap him to be the spokesman for that. But that is not the case for Rob o'. Neill. You would think that the Navy, it would be in their best interest to be like, hey, you can't do this.
- [143:52]
A
I think. Well, first then it begs the question because people say the Navy. We're actually talking about a shit ton of people. I don't even know who would make that decision. You know what I mean? So there would have to be some spokesman that would speak on behalf of the Navy. I think one of the reasons, though, same thing with Tim, Tim's situation is there may be a fear that it opens Pandora's box. I don't know if there's any legitimacy to that. But using Matthew Cole's book as an example.
- [144:27]
B
Right.
- [144:27]
A
Does that open Pandora's box to anything and everything else?
- [144:33]
B
Well, it definitely would do this and I don't know to. I will end up saying the same thing. It would definitely start a precedence of the Navy weighing in on retired people. But they're not just retired. Like they're. They're telling, they're telling the story and being representatives of the Navy. So they're absolutely. In fact, in fact, the Navy is still paying. Rob o' Neill is a really. Well through retirement.
- [145:00]
A
No, I thought he doesn't get retired retirement.
- [145:02]
B
Didn't he get.
- [145:03]
A
Wasn't the original Rolling Stones article, man who shot Osama bin Laden can't get his retirement.
- [145:09]
B
I assumed, I assumed he medically retired, but he may not have after 18 years. That'd be crazy.
- [145:15]
A
I believe he chose to exit which when I first saw that headline and I don't know a lot of the details here. Yeah. So can you look that up?
- [145:22]
B
Yeah, it actually makes sense because if he exited as fast as he did to get to a book deal as fast as he could. There's nothing fast about him. Medical amendment.
- [145:29]
A
No. It took me a year.
- [145:31]
B
Yeah.
- [145:32]
A
And also I, I, when I read that article or the headline and I'm probably. This is like a decade plus in the rearview mirror. I don't have. He did not receive the military because he left after 16 years.
- [145:45]
B
Yeah.
- [145:47]
A
That's a decision that somebody makes at 16 years. I'm sorry but I have, I can understand why people would want to do that, that. But you don't get to complain to the Rolling Stones that you don't get your retirement because you chose to leave before exiting the required time and service to achieve your retirement.
- [146:06]
B
Right.
- [146:08]
A
Once.
- [146:09]
B
Although he was eligible for veterans pension, which probably means. I bet you through his gi.
- [146:14]
A
I bet you that means disability. So VA disability would be my guess.
- [146:19]
B
Yeah. But yeah, I don't. It would, it would set, it would set a precedent. But I would argue it sets the precedence in a good way. I mean that's, you know, obviously because of the, you know, the, the episodes that I've done and the work I've done. That's, that's this side of the fence that, that I, that I err on.
- [146:34]
A
Yeah.
- [146:34]
B
You can, you can be quiet and complicit and complicit or you could stand up for the truth. And I would like our Navy and our military to, to stand up for the truth. And here's, here's another. I think it's just a fallacy when people like well if I do this for you, I'll have to do this for everyone. I've been, I've been told that a few times my, my military career. One was after I got shot. I tried to get the military to buy me a hot tub in Jordan for, for my arm because it hurt and I thought a hot tub would make it feel better.
- [147:07]
A
This sounds like a reasonable train of thought to me.
- [147:09]
B
That one probably I deserved to be told that. But. But I hate, I hate that I.
- [147:15]
A
Would have asked for like an ice cream.
- [147:17]
B
I'm gonna ice it from the inside.
- [147:19]
A
Yeah, I will eat the ice cream and then also ice my arm with it.
- [147:22]
B
But that's not true. If you do this for one, it doesn't mean the presence been set. You have to do it for everyone. We'll take DUIs for example. I hate the, the blanket thing that we do for, for DUIs with a special operations to kicking guys out. Every one of those things should be looked at as its own separate instance. I know a guy who went drinking real heavily on a Saturday night, knew better than to go home home. So he slept it off at his friend's house. Woke up early the next day to drive home. Got it on the way in after doing everything right, he blew a 0.082 like just barely over it. That's a lot different than someone who blows twice over the legal Limit and is, you know, putting everyone's life in danger.
- [148:03]
A
Yeah.
- [148:03]
B
So I don't believe just because you do it for one, you have to do it for everyone. It doesn't set a precedence. Every single one that comes up after this should be looked at as its, as its own incident.
- [148:13]
A
Yeah. I'm clearly not a representative for the Navy, but my personal opinion on all of this is I would rather see the SEAL community get a couple black eyes but maintain their integrity. I would rather the community writ large, myself included in this, be knocked down a few pegs, but maintain the integrity of the community, then perpetuate something that isn't true.
- [148:44]
B
I'll, I'll vent to you about this. Not that. Which is a little bit pointless. You're not, you're not the representative of the SEAL community, but I'll give you an attav on Fridays. Okay? You, you do it professionally. Like, you don't come over the top. Like, you, you, you say exactly the truth about what you know about the incident. Incident. Yeah, but. But you'll, you'll speak on it. Like, hey, that's just, just. I, it's just not what anyone who I've ever talked to has, has confirmed. And that's, and that's fair from me. At the start of this, doing this, the amount of seals who will call me and, and tell me the story, and after I do the story, call me again and thank me for doing the story. But the lack of, like, real, like, coming out, support. The SEALs could absolutely, overwhelmingly come out on this and be like, hey, we're tired of this. Yeah. Like, this, this is, this guy's been a black eye to our community for, for a long time with his shenanigans and then. And his lies. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's. It's been enough, but they won't do it. I mean, there's just, you know, the few, like, I've, like, I've already said, Matt Bissonnette's actually a great one. Matt Bissonette does it professionally. Even on the Sean Ryan show. He never came out and said. Said anything about Rob, but his lawyer.
- [150:04]
A
Sitting off his shoulder, which, not a.
- [150:07]
B
Bad call, but his story clearly, you know, showed a very different story. Very, very, very different story. Like I said, you know, Chris Fetus has come out. You know, the owner of, of G2 Precision has come out. But I, it's, it could, I do believe. I believe it could be easily taken care of, serve with, within the community as, as it should have this whole time.
- [150:32]
A
Some of those.
- [150:32]
B
It shouldn't have been me coming out there to Tomas.
- [150:35]
A
You know, some of those people, the ones that will reach out, probably don't have any level of comfort in a public spectrum. I can understand and respect that. And again, you know, life is about the choices that you make. They're the one who, whether they're sleeping great at night or they're struggling to go to sleep, sleep for whatever reason.
- [150:53]
B
It may be, you know, but when is. When is enough enough?
- [151:00]
A
It's a good question, man.
- [151:02]
B
And, you know, to answer my own question, that answer is different to Every single person has a. Has a different threshold of enough. But it really hasn't, you know, to me, it's easy to say really hasn't hit the seal community of being enough yet because, you know, there's. There's a. Of lot. Lot. There's a lot out there that know the truth, but, you know, choose. Choose to be quiet. And it's about getting that point where, yeah, we're going to have to start saying something.
- [151:29]
A
I think the initiation of the lawsuit might actually trigger that for a lot of people. It might, it might be. It might be a train that left the tracks. That is not the tracks. It would probably stay on the tracks, but left the station. I think that's how that metaphor works. That is actually no longer in his control. I mean, I'm curious to see the end state versus what he thought the intent or end state would be. I think they might be very different.
- [151:53]
B
Yeah. And, and we may have a conversation, you know, about this later, and I, I kind of tend to agree with that. Like, you know, we were talking about that on the podcast and we had no idea things were already set in motion that, that were just about to come out. We. We didn't even know about it yet. Yeah, I do believe that's a, That's a strong possibility. We gotta, we gotta see if it even goes to court first. Yeah, Really. I don't, I don't have a. I don't have a very good feeling that'll even make it to court. And I should be happy about that because going to court is going to cost a lot of money, but I'm afraid only court is going to be the, you know, the, the catalyst of, of having people have, have to come out and, and, and finish this.
- [152:41]
A
So, man, what else do you want to accomplish with your life? How old are you now?
- [152:46]
B
45. What I want, just because it's, It's. It's a passion of mine. I really, I want to continue to grow FRCC into, Into a national brand. I, I want us to be the company that every time something happens and, and the law enforcement community, they're like, hey, FRCC will step in. They'll. They'll. They'll help us. Yeah, you know, we, we still get a lot of those requests. I'm just not happy about what we're able to do. A firefighter just lost his life September 8th in Georgia. And, you know, we're going to donate a thousand dollars and a bunch of coffee and cigars to it. But, you know, just so they know, hey, we like, yeah, people care. You're not forgotten. That's.
- [153:34]
A
Well, you got to do it smartly because you can't. If you, if you burn the business to the ground and the attempt to support that way, then the support is gone.
- [153:40]
B
Right.
- [153:41]
A
Then both things are gone.
- [153:42]
B
But as you know, like that, I mean, I give responsibly, but yeah, it doesn't feel like enough. Like, I'd love, I'd love that. Make that a more significant check. And then we, you know, we try to support cops when they're shot, killed in any way we can. So that's, that really is. Is my goal in life is to do that, but not, not for the reasons most people would want to grow a national brand. But to be, to be there for those guys, I think they deserve it. I think our wars are over and their wars are just beginning. If you will never end. They never end. Yeah, well, they've gotten worse. They've gotten a lot worse.
- [154:23]
A
Worse.
- [154:23]
B
And, and it's, It's. It's never. It's never ended, but they're. It's getting worse.
- [154:29]
A
Yeah.
- [154:29]
B
And they're going to need support, and they are. I'm afraid. They already feel like no one supports them or they're not, you know, well liked or supported enough. And I believe there's a need for.
- [154:40]
A
This outside of business. Are you a travel guy? You got any other skills that you want to learn? Like what, what turns the ignition over for you?
- [154:53]
B
I don't travel a lot on my, on my, on my own Will. Devin drags me around to places, and I'm glad she does, or else I wouldn't enjoy life. I'd just sit there and work myself to death.
- [155:10]
A
I don't know. I didn't have a lot of answers to that when I was four years out either.
- [155:16]
B
Either. Yeah, I don't now that you asked me that. I kind of feel bad that it's not a hard shouldn't be a hard question.
- [155:23]
A
It's a very hard question when you come from a place where people present you with the targets you need to knock down.
- [155:28]
B
Yeah.
- [155:28]
A
When you have to find your own and spend time with yourself. What do I want to do? What is it that I actually enjoy doing outside of that world? It's tough, man.
- [155:38]
B
This is. This is going to be such a. Almost a. A a. A foolish answer, but I'll give it to you. I drive 180,000 mile truck and it'll see 300,000 if I. If I can. If I can help it. I've never bought a new car in my life.
- [156:04]
A
It's actually smart.
- [156:06]
B
I.
- [156:07]
A
Investing in depreciating assets is a strategy that I've tried many times. Always that's the same thing.
- [156:13]
B
It's so bad. I've liked the new Corvettes, the C8 Corvettes, ever since they came out. I owned a C6 Corvette and had to sell it to be responsible. And I always told myself I would buy another Corvette, but it always seems like a foolish decision. What's even worse to some degree is I could force it and I could buy one. I just choose not to. I would just love financially to be at a spot where I'm like, you know What? You're almost 50. Buy the Corvette that you want. I'm not even talking about $150,000. I'm just talking about old white guy goals. There's one I would just like to get in my car to pre be like, you know, all this work was. I have something to show just me personally for all this hard work.
- [157:05]
A
Work.
- [157:06]
B
It's probably a really weird answer.
- [157:07]
A
It's not a weird answer. I mean, there is no right or wrong answer. Everybody's completely different. You know, one thing that has helped me since I've been out is I'm constantly looking for new things to try or teach myself. Well, I love the process of learning and I do think it keeps your brain young, which helps you stay more engaged and more active. So finding new stuff that maybe hadn't even thought of and kind of diving into that has helped me quite a.
- [157:35]
B
Bit when I get. When I get some more time on my hands. I probably have four or five guitars I used to play all the time. I. I rarely have the time to play them. I'd like. I'd like to sit down, just play guitar more. I've almost essentially forgotten how to play the piano. I can still. I still get down and play a few songs, but it takes me a while like, like I'd, I'd like to, I'd like to get back to things like that and that, that I really enjoy but I just don't have the time to do it.
- [158:06]
A
Yeah, well remember sometimes subtraction is more powerful than addition. Saying no is very powerful.
- [158:15]
B
It's so funny you say that. One of my favorite things I do is, is train cops. I love going to training SWAT teams. Like going there, transferring this information be like hey, I don't expect to turn them into little Delta Force teams, but I do believe there's something that I will tell them that might save their life on, on their worst night. And I just really enjoy it. But I usually put on two day courses but those two day courses are four days of my time travel there. Two days travel back, it's four days out. I always say I'm going to do work work at night or on the plane and I do and I never do. I never do enough. Yeah. I usually go out with the guys because I want to hang out with them. And I've had to start telling SWAT more and more SWAT teams no, I don't have time to do this. And it, it hurts to be honest with you. I hate doing that. But I have, I've gotten better at saying no to certain training events. I don't say no to all of them. They're still, I'll always do it to some degree. We've gotten better at saying no as far as FRCC is like to going to events. We're still going to keep our, our core ones that, that, that, that we go to. But we're, we've, we've had to make hard decisions and say hey, we can't, we can't do it all. Yeah. It's the hardest thing to do. And when I'm done with it I'm usually happy with the decision be like that sucked but that was a necessary evil.
- [159:43]
A
Not a huge guy to give advice. But save some time for yourself so you can live your own life. You have given enough back to other people. Make sure you save some for yourself.
- [159:58]
B
My, what I'm starting to think is my fallacy on that is I keep, I keep saying I'm just, I just need to keep the afterburners on one more year and we'll, and we'll be.
- [160:11]
A
At a spot, a big gas tank.
- [160:15]
B
My gas eggs fluctuates.
- [160:18]
A
That's what I'm saying. You know afterburners, you go real, real fast. But this can't fly on burner.
- [160:22]
B
Yeah. So I'm back at that spot again last year. I said, I think just one more year. But then we brought the bourbon on, which was now a whole new thing. So now I got. At least let me put a full year of pushing the bourbon and getting to a spot where we can at least never put it in coast, but put it in more of a gradual increase rather than not expecting to try to go 30 and 40% increase every year. So I still believe I need to do one more hard year. But even with that, I think I can do a better job of taking a little bit more time for myself.
- [161:00]
A
Take more time, or you can constantly be training your replacement, then you could manage them and step into more of a management role.
- [161:07]
B
The problem with that is if I'm not paying myself, it means I don't have enough money to pay someone to do my job.
- [161:13]
A
No, I'm saying when the time presents itself where you can, that'll be how you can net a lot of that time back for yourself.
- [161:21]
B
I wait for that day every day. I do have a little bit of a problem with releasing control sometimes because, you know, I have a high standard, and I'm just not sure other people will meet that standard. But I also understand when you don't.
- [161:36]
A
Give them the chance.
- [161:36]
B
That's right. Yeah, I know. I also understand that. That's. That's. That's ridiculous. Like every. Everyone's replaceable. I was replaceable at the Delta Force.
- [161:48]
A
Also, sometimes our standards are wrong. The person that you turn it over to might have a better idea of what the standard should be than the monkeys. Like you and I. We were trained monkeys, Brent.
- [162:00]
B
That'll hurt my feelings, but.
- [162:02]
A
No, I said we. I said we. I put myself in that category. We just had cool camo and machine guns, right?
- [162:08]
B
Oh, if I. If I relinquish it over to some nerd and then. And then he does a lot better than me.
- [162:13]
A
Piss you off?
- [162:14]
B
Oh, you talking about.
- [162:15]
A
You know what'll help you with that? Being pissed off Your Corvette. You'll be all right.
- [162:21]
B
You're damn right you'll be all all right. Come on, baby. We're going for a drive. As long as I don't miss a turn, we'll be fine.
- [162:30]
A
We've been at it for almost three hours. One more question for you.
- [162:33]
B
Okay.
- [162:34]
A
Somebody who wants to follow in your career path, what advice would you give? You can say, just become a seal if you want. Oh, it's a tough question because times have changed.
- [163:00]
B
Yeah, everything changed.
- [163:01]
A
Yeah, it's. There's a lot of Variables there. But, you know, there are people out there who want to be the next Brent. What'd you tell them?
- [163:10]
B
If. If you wanted to become like the, the, like the full one. If. If you wanted to, you know, go be a Green Beret, go the adult force, get out, be an entrepreneur, you know, be a podcast host that stands on truth, you know, the whole. The whole gambit, I would say it's. It is not. It is not the easiest path, and it is not for everyone. And if that's the path you want, you better fucking want it. And you will regret it sometimes. You will.
- [163:48]
A
This is supposed to be hip pep talk.
- [163:51]
B
You'll regret it sometimes. Sometimes you'll think it was other things that you could have done that were a lot easier. But I, But I assure you, when you put your head down at night, you'll go to bed knowing that you're a good man that's done good things and you've done them for the right reasons and, and that it's worth it and that, hey, this. Tough things aren't for everyone. And it's a good thing. It's a good thing. Tough things. You know, I just said this the other day. I was watching a Dana White interview, and someone's talking to him about how weak, I've paraphrase this, but how weak men are. And what is. What is he. What does he think about that?
- [164:37]
A
That.
- [164:37]
B
And he, you know, for someone that wants to start in this day and age, he's like, you should love it. Like, now is time to be a lion. Like, there's. There's so few lines in. In this generation coming up for the few lines out there. The world's your oyster, buddy. Like, why open prairie in front of you, right? Why would you want the competition? You, you know, you wanted to start this 10, 15 years ago when there was a bunch of lions in this space and you're fighting, you know, know everyone 20, 30 years ago. How far back you want to go? Like right now? If, if, if. If you're lying in this space and, and in this generation, go get it, buddy.
- [165:15]
A
Hell yeah, man. Where's the best place people can find you support what you got going on.
- [165:19]
B
As always. If you like coffee, cigars or, or bourbon, FRCC shop.
- [165:27]
A
That's like a full day right there.
- [165:28]
B
Morning. That's right.
- [165:29]
A
Midday, evening.
- [165:30]
B
That's right. We. We got, we got you all day. Day. All day. My podcast is, you know, easiest place to find is. Is YouTube tier one podcast number one. Tier one podcast. If, if you wanna. If you want to. If you feel like you have low energy, low sex drive, you're in your 30s or 40s, you just want to get checked out, go to hb-trt.com get you get. Get your levels checked. That not the.
- [165:58]
A
To.
- [165:58]
B
You know, this isn't a sales pitch, let me tell you. About a year ago or less, I got. I was just miserable. Just miserable working myself to the bone. Not, not working out, not eating right. Just. And ironically enough, I'm a part owner in a TRT company. And I called up like, hey, I got to get my blood levels checked some. Something's wrong. And my. My Testosterone was at 36, and my free testosterone was at 0.3. Just basement levels. That's like.
- [166:28]
A
That's like diesel in a race car.
- [166:30]
B
That's. It's. It couldn't have been any worse. And. And then for me to think, hey, like, that things are just gonna magically get better if I do nothing to help myself and do nothing to improve my situation, like, it was just gonna get better. I can just work myself out of this one. That one's just not true. So that. That one, even though I say I spend the least amount of time on it, that one, I believe, like, really does change people's life the most. And ever since then, I. I don't. It's not. Again, it's not. It's not the. The one all cure for. For all your life's problems. Yeah. But let me tell you as a man, if you have no energy and the whole. The whole house is depending on you to provide for it, and you don't feel like. You just feel like you're a lazy piece of crap dragging ass all the time, you might want to get your blood work. Yeah.
- [167:17]
A
Also, if you are a lazy piece of. And you take testosterone, you're still gonna be a lazy piece of. If it's not your blood work causing.
- [167:23]
B
That, well, this is.
- [167:26]
A
It doesn't solve laziness. You know what I mean? Inherently, you're still gonna have to do a bunch of work, and it's one metric that you can check, and you got to get a bunch of checked.
- [167:32]
B
But yeah, this is the irony of it. We'll just take it from my perspective. But yeah, I'm sure it'll, you know, some listeners will. Will agree with this. If you weren't always lazy and you spent, you know, decades being a. Being a hard worker with planet energy and just now in your 40s, yeah, you've just changed. Yeah, you've just become lazy and as men. Our first, you know, our. Our first option is just. Is just to bash ourselves. And I did. I was like, you're. You're just a piece of crap. Like, what's wrong with you? Why are you lazy now?
- [168:07]
A
Strong work. I like hearing the story, the conversations I have with myself in the mirror every morning thing.
- [168:12]
B
Just bashing myself.
- [168:14]
A
Super helpful too.
- [168:19]
B
So, yeah, if you've been a piece of crap your whole life, testosterous. Probably not gonna help you out. But. But if you, but if you. You're pretty productive most of your life and in your 40s, you're just like, what happened to me? Yeah, I just. Get your blood work done and that's. And even if that's not. Even if that's not the answer, start checking things off.
- [168:35]
A
100.
- [168:36]
B
Yeah.
- [168:36]
A
Get a baseline now. So at least you have something that's right. Future as well. Well, I wish I had baselines from when I was in.
- [168:41]
B
Oh, my gosh. I know. Yeah, same thing. And now, you know, the unit's starting to do a lot better job of like, cognitive baselines. Really wish, you know, we'd have done things like that earlier. Blood work, testosterone baselines, all those are just, they're. They're a necessity. So we are. We're starting to do some things better.
- [169:00]
A
Hell yeah. Well, thank you too, for making the trip out here. I know it's not exactly, you know, the 2.4 hours of Le Mollet commute.
- [169:08]
B
I think it's a little bit farther.
- [169:09]
A
But you gotta get. This place is freaking beautiful.
- [169:12]
B
Well, I guess we found out today this is like the first time you guys had sun in a. In a couple weeks. It was. It's a rare sunny day here.
- [169:18]
A
A weird transition into winter. There's not even Snow on the 10 day forecast. Usually we got a little bit of frosting up on the hill as it's farther down. I don't even. I don't even think it hits overnight. It'll hit freezing, but in the daytime it's a little weird, but, yeah. Sunny right now.
- [169:33]
B
Yeah, it was typical. It was a little chilly, but I thought I was. I was prepared for a lot, a lot colder weather.
- [169:38]
A
You're from Florida, 50s, a little chilly. I saw people in puffy jackets at the little mullets putting beanies on, like, guys, it's 62 degrees.
- [169:46]
B
So you did see us.
- [169:49]
A
Florida man was featured out of Bug.
- [169:51]
B
Everybody, we're about to go say hello, hello to your local vfw. Oh, hell yeah. But right on. I love hanging out with old cranky veterans.
- [170:01]
A
Right by the coffee shop.
- [170:02]
B
That's right. Right back there.
- [170:03]
A
Thanks, brother.